Should I Ask Out The Man I Just Started Dating?
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Evan,
First off, thanks for all the info online and for “Why He Disappeared”. Every time I start to obsess or get emotional now, I take a deep breath and go reread your book.
Last weekend I went on second dates with two men that I’d met online. On one of the dates we had lunch. He asked. The other date, I broke the mirroring rule. When I purchased tickets to the symphony a month ago I figured I would just end up dragging my son along with me. Instead I invited one of the guys a couple of days after our first date. We went, and we had a good time.
Now I’ve just gotten GREAT free tickets to a local concert that I know both men would enjoy. These are VIP box seats with preferred parking etc., and the concert is Saturday! I haven’t heard from either man since the weekend and, while I’m not bothered by this, I don’t want to go to this concert alone (alas, not something I can drag my son to this time).
How do I let the man be the aggressor and how do I mirror while dating when I’m the one with the tickets all the time?
- Meredith
To everyone who hasn’t yet read “Why He Disappeared”:
If he calls, call him back. If he texts, text him back. If he says he wants to get together with you, say you want to get together with him.
a) You should. Click here.
b) It introduces a not-so-revolutionary concept that I call “mirroring”. Essentially, when you’re starting to date a new guy, the best thing you can do, to see if he’s genuinely interested in you, is to simply react to what he does. If he calls, call him back. If he texts, text him back. If he says he wants to get together with you, say you want to get together with him. And so on.
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121 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Fiona 1
This is so true. After reading “He’s Just Not That Into You” years ago it totally changed my perspective and I stopped second guessing what men were thinking after a first meeting because it is so obvious by their actions. Men who are interested follow up right away. Often these are unfortunately not the guys you want to hear from so lots of single women spend a lot of time and energy wondering what they can do to make the men they do like more interested in them after a date which is a waste of time and energy. A lot of women really seem to struggle to grasp that point for some reason.
Ruby 2
I struggled with this concept for a long time. I’m not sure why, but it probably had to do with low self-esteem, and the idea of having to “make” someone like me. Plus, I tend to be an “initiator”, so when I get excited about an activity, I want to share it with the person I’m dating.
However, in Meredith’s case, why does she have drag her son along to the concert? Doesn’t she have any friends who’d be happy to go? She shouldn’t be sitting around waiting for either man to ask her out. She should have plans made, and if one of the men contacts her last-minute, then that is his loss if she is not available. When a man has been interested in me, he will either make plans at the end of the date or within 2-3 days after. You know the old rule about a man calling by Wednesday for a Saturday night date? I still follow that.
I firmly believe that we teach others how to treat us. If I have to be the initiator, or if I accept last-minute planning, then I am further reinforcing the guy not to initiate, and not to make plans with enough advance notice. if we want a man to value us, we have to be diligent about this.
Amy 3
I end up going to a lot of events with my brother or with a friend, not the idyllic romantic evening I often have in mind, but still. Getting a pair of ticket’s in one’s hand can be a slippery slope, you might end up initiating something simply because you have tickets, when otherwise you would let the guy take the lead. Waiting it out is always better. When a guy does initiate, you’ll have a better time because you’ll know he really wanted to go with YOU, regardless of what the tickets were for. In the meantime, a few nights out with a friend or sibling isn’t terrible, right? I have to admit that I kind of hate these rules, and here I am endorsing them, but they do tend to work with most guys most of the time.
Henriette 4
I agree with Evan wholeheartedly but also know how difficult this advice can be to follow. Most of the women reading and posting here are educated go-getters and it can feel unnatural to suddenly have to switch to playing a more passive, receptive role. I empathise with every woman reading this who wants to take initiative, plan and make things happen.
I hope the original poster will take a girlfriend, instead. I have a number of women who’ve been supportive and fun for decades; why wouldn’t I want to share a special treat with one of them instead of with a guy who I’ve only seen once or twice?
Amy 5
Amen, Henriette!
Lily2 6
Whenever I’ve had this dilemma, I have to simplify or I will get caught up in my head rationalizing like crazy. I do this by asking myself one question… Do I want to feel chosen when I am out with this guy? The honest answer is YES! That brings me back to my senses pretty quick. It’s really all about how I want to feel. When I lead, I feel insecure and uncertain…yuk!
Kathleen 7
Following the simple concept of mirroring, since I read about it on Evan site, has made dating so much EASIER!!! Sitting back and observing who’s making an effort has been an epiphany and not difficult to follow in any way.
Think its wise to have a zen like outlook of observation without attachment while being warm and gracious. Thanks for another great topic!
Tom10 8
Henriette
“Most of the women reading and posting here are educated go-getters and it can feel unnatural to suddenly have to switch to playing a more passive, receptive role. I empathise with every woman reading this who wants to take initiative, plan and make things happen.”
I agree with you and also empathise with women in this situation as it’s a double standard. However, Evan’s right; it really is the only way to gauge a man’s interest. If a man is ambivalent about you, but sense’s that you really like him, he will settle into a three-month fwb situation. Sad but true.
Perhaps you could suggest a particular activity, but only after he initiated it.
Amy
“a few nights out with a friend or sibling isn’t terrible, right?”
Right. I also go to events with my sister or with a friend; it’s not so bad
B. 9
I’m a bit of a go-getter and have had problems sitting back and letting the man lead. While I continue to struggle with it, the whole mirroring principle makes so much sense. Every time I think about picking up the phone to either call or text a guy I’ve just started to date, I have to remind myself that if he’s interested in me, he will contact me.
MAXINE 10
Another conundrum solved! Thanks so much Evan. You are “The Man”!! Your wisdom is over the top all the time.
Evan, after purchasing your e-book and reading it all in one night, I have become a much sought after woman. I have listened and used all of the advice you gave. Everything you said works! I finally got it. Thank you so very much for all the advice you continue to give.
Jackie Holness 11
Yes, simply…”He’s Just That Not Into You.” Harsh, but true…preserve the sexy and keep it moving…
julie 12
Seem like if you want to go to a concert with a guy you should just ask him without the expectation of it going any further though. If he says yes he probably has at least a remote interest anyway, right? Even a night out with a man who may be a friend is funner than taking one of our children or a girlfriend who won’t pay us for the ticket.
Ruby 13
Julie #12
” Even a night out with a man who may be a friend is funner than taking one of our children or a girlfriend who won’t pay us for the ticket. ”
Why wouldn’t a girlfriend pay for the ticket? In Meredith’s case, though, the tickets were free anyway.
Fusee 14
+1! Letting him initiate is indeed one necessary (but not sufficient) way to discover his level of interest in the early stage of dating. For a while in my twenties I made the mistake of not respecting this basic advice and wasted my time and energy on a few 2-3 months flings because of it.
@julie #12: “Seem like if you want to go to a concert with a guy you should just ask him without the expectation of it going any further though.”
It’s at the risk of finding yourself attracted to him – or even worse, physically involved – while you still do not know his true interest level. Dating is not about making friends. Sure way to end up in fantasy land. I think it’s a much better long-term happiness investment to go to these events my byself or a true old-time friend than with a stranger.
It’s a case of giving up the short-term gratification of the illusion of a hot date for the longer-term benefit of clarity and eventually dating effectiveness.
Susan61 15
I agree she should not ask him and should go with someone else. And yes, as women who are expected to be go getters in every other aspect of life, in dating we must be passive and follow the man’s lead. This can be frustrating.
I have had men complain to me that they are expected to do all the initiating, have to face rejection over and over while women just wait to be pursued. These men said they have really appreciated it when a woman showed interest in them or made some plans or move, and it took all the pressure off of him. They also said they liked it when a woman called them. In fact, I know of two women with men that they pursued after the initial meeting and one is married to said man. Yet, I think this is rare and it is indeed best to mirror the man and let him pursue.
Goldie 16
Another side to this, you don’t want to set a pattern of being the one to always initiate everything. Even in the best case scenario, if you two end up in a relationship, you don’t want to be that person. I dated an old friend of mine for a few months where we fell into that pattern. All of a sudden I found myself initiating *everything* outside of the bedroom. If I didn’t plan anything, then we didn’t go anywhere outside of the bedroom. Oh and get this: he allowed me to make plans for our weekends together.
If the concert is really that good, and Meredith cannot find anyone to go with, I’d consider going alone. People do it all the time…
Stephanie 17
I would ask out the same guy you offered tickets before and enjoy the show, since you already set the trend and wait for the other to contact you:)
Ruby 18
Meredith already asked one of the men out to a concert that she had previously paid for. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a sign of pursuit. If he likes her, he should be following up with an activity of his own, especially since symphony tickets are not cheap. But to ask him out yet another time would make her seem needy, pushy, or even desperate. Not the impression she’s going for. The other man hasn’t even gotten beyond lunch yet.
Kristen 19
Evan’s advice is spot on, as ususal.
However, I wonder why Meredith thinks she only has the option of taking her son or one of the two guys she’s just recently met? It seems that, in the absence of either one, she’s not going to go to the concert. My advice for Meredith would be to start asking friends to go with you. It’s important for single women to have friends who can be counted on to go to social events. Otherwise, what will inevitably happen is that you’ll will end up sitting at home, feeling lonely and sad that you don’t have a date for the concert and are missing out. If all else fails, go to the concert alone!
I speak from experience. I’ve found myself more than once in the situation where, when a relationship ended, I didn’t have anyone with whom to attend social events because I hadn’t made enough effort to maintain my friendships or to make new friends. And I was too scared to go alone. It took some time but I made new friends who I can generally rely to go to events with me. Or I just go by myself. I’m a very self conscious person and, while at first it was terribly awkward to go to a concert alone, it didn’t take long before I got over myself and learned how to make conversation with people I didn’t know. In fact, I’ve made a number of good friends that way and even a few dates. The bonus is that once you are confident enough and have a strong enough social circle to not need a date to an event, it becomes much easier to stick to mirroring.
Still-Looking 20
A guy’s perspective – Yes, I enjoy the chase. Yes mirroring works. That being said, there are a few things to keep in mind.
1. When you mirror, show some enthusiasm and passion. When a woman responds 36 hours later with a 5 word text it is difficult to feel that she is showing anything but one step above indifference.
2. Men do have to take the initiative – just remember that men face rejection day after day. If you are interested, drop some not so subtle hints.
3. Women and men think differently – guys aren’t so good at reading between the lines. Show your interest without scaring him away but don’t be so forward that you scare him away.
I realize that all three tips say basically the same thing – I’m lucky that I can date a different woman every night if I so choose – If I’m left guessing whether she is interested i have one response — “next”
BTW – nothing ventured, nothing gained — if the OP doesn’t make a move on one of these guys, I’m going to assume that she will never see them again. If she asks one of them out, she won’t be in a worse position than she is in now. Maybe she’ll find one of them is a great guy and friend for life or maybe he’ll discover she is a wonderful woman. There is an exception to every rule….
lux aeterna 21
I was just about to message a man tonight when I decided to swing by this blog again. Thanks, that stopped my message! Maybe one of the men will call and ask Meredith out on Saturday, and she can then mention, by the way, I have some tickets…
Years ago, I had just been dumped right before going to see the Welsh National Opera that I had bought the tickets for. Furious and date-less I decided to bring a male friend instead. However, the three guys I asked were all busy that night, but not for the whole night. So… guy number one came with me for the first act, guy number two for the second act, and guy number three got off the train just in time to rush inside and catch the third act. The couple sitting next to me gave me some confused looks. And this was all before mobile phones – we were good at logistics back then!
Mr. R 22
This advice does have the ring of the book “He’s Just Not That Into You”, as a side note.
Because really – he’s just not that into you if he’s not calling you. Evan takes it a step further with the mirroring (which works, by the way).
Jenna 23
I have to say that while I don’t agree with 100 percent mirroring or letting the guy do ALL the work, I still don’t tend to make moves until we’ve been out at least five times, and even then only 20ish percent of the time. It’s totally fine to call a guy once in awhile, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a man who was put off by that. Also, I do invite men to things all the time, but only if I’m not truly interested in them for a relationship and/or see them as more of a friend.
I do think women would miss out on a lot of opportunities in life by 100 percent mirroring – I take it more as the overall effort/enthusiasm you show for a man rather than literally keeping score of every initiation of contact – but it depends on the stage of life you’re in and what you’re looking for. I’ve certainly made good friends out of dating, but I can understand those who are at a stage where they are much more singularly focused on marriage may not want to bother with that. The key for me has been to regularly go on dates with people from real life as well as online, not sleep with anyone until there’s a relationship, and just generally be more social and invite people to more things in my non-dating life. If someone doesn’t respond or call, I have plenty of other dates lined up and other social activities and it doesn’t hugely matter. If this woman can’t think of other fun friends to invite, maybe she should start there.
Toni 24
I was in this exact same situation two years ago. I had great tickets to
a baseball game and had recently been out with two guys, both of whom I asked to the game. Guy #1, seemed really into me (and also really into himself) and we had been out on three dates. So, I thought, what the hell, I’ll just ask him to go to the game. He declined my invitation and I didn’t really hear from him much after that.
I asked Guy #2 and he accepted my invitation. It was our second date, We had amazing seats to the game and had a blast together. EWe dated through the summer, but ultimately our romantic relationship ended. However, we are now friends and occassionally go to a show or go skiing together….
I agree with Evan to a point, but there is no point in overthinking how to use concert tickets. I read “He’s Just Not that Into You” and also Read Evan’s Ebook and Blog. In the end, I decided that if a guy needs me to play games, then he’s probably not the guy for me. I have been dating the same guy for almost a year and didn’t have to follow a set of rules to atttract his attention.
I say ask the guys to the concert and have fun with it.
Nadia 25
If she’s not that concerned about whether or not a relationship will develop with one of these guys–and she might not be–then she should feel free to invite one to the concert. She might invite the one she’s less interested in. But I totally agree with some of the other comments; why does she not have a girlfriend to ask? Do your own thang, sugar, and don’t worry about the boys. They’ll show up if they’re interested, and if they’re not, they won’t. In the meantime, you could be saving your energy and looking forward to a fun show with a fun friend.
Michelle 26
Great answer, wholeheartedly agree, and so many people will argue with this, it’s silly. #8, Tom10, right on! Had a very protracted on line conversation on a forum where a young man and women were arguing against the advice of two more mature, seasoned women were giving another woman–our advice: DON’T initiate contact after meeting a man for the first time–how hard is that? You’ll never know how interested he is. Needless to say, she disregarded the good advice, and contacted him. He was ambivalent, then texted for a booty call later that week…sigghhhh….
A female ‘go getter’ is working out of her masculine energy, nothing wrong with that in work situations, furthering a career or getting a project or errands done. Masculine energy doesn’t excite a man. Being receptive and leaning back is not negative or weak, it’s being in our feminine energy, recognizing we are the ‘prize’. It’s coming from a place of power since men can’t fully be in female energy, it’s a mystery to them. Once a woman can really get this change in attitude, she will master dating and men.
Fusee 27
@Toni #24: “In the end, I decided that if a guy needs me to play games, then he’s probably not the guy for me.”
I agree about not “playing games”. However I do not see mirroring in the early stage of dating as playing games. Refraining one’s enthusiasm is no more game playing than – for example – refraining one’s tendency to blurt things out without thinking. Self-control is truly necessary in the building and nurturing of a healthy relationship. Why not starting early?
Now, I think that mirroring only makes sense in the very early stage of dating, and it needs to be accompanied of very clear demontrations of appreciation for his efforts and some form of reciprocation by contributing to part of the expenses for example. If I were a man, I would also need confirmation of her interest and would not enjoy taking a woman out several times while still wondering if she is truly interested or just using me to alleviate her boredom. Therefore, as a woman, after a few dates (number depending on how things started and developed), I think it’s time to start proposing dates as well, and then maybe at a pace of 1 out of 3?
That’s what I did with my boyfriend, without knowing it was called “mirroring” : ). At that time I had not discovered Evan’s amazing blog… Anyway, I let my man make plans for the few first dates, and each time expressed my interest, appreciation, and excitement. At the third date, which was still his plan, I chose the restaurant for lunch and picked up the check. That was a nice transition towards participating more, and later on, maybe for date #8 or so I suggested my own idea. I would have prefered starting initiating earlier but he always made plans before I could even have time to do so! Therefore initiating might happen earlier or later depending on individual circumstances, but I would never have asked him for a date before date #5. On the other hand, I offered to contribute financially as soon as date #1 (which was refused until date #3 : ).
As I was involving myself progressively more into the dating process, I asked him whether he appreciated it or would prefer to keep 100% of the lead. He explained that he really liked taking care of our first few dates, but loved it when I started asking him out later on.
nathan 28
Goldie #16 “Another side to this, you don’t want to set a pattern of being the one to always initiate everything.” This is exactly why I resist this sense that men should lead all, or most of the time. Because it can easily slip into that being the pattern – and/or the expectation. I do believe that amongst younger folks, there’s less of this rigidness around gender roles, and how attraction is expressed. But since Evan always comes in with comments about being practical right now, I’ll move on to my own experience.
Enthusiastic response is great in the beginning, and mirroring as such is fine in my view. However, in my book, it’s value drops greatly over time, if that’s all or mostly what a woman is offering. If I am doing all or most of the initiating past date three, I begin to seriously question her level of interest. Such situations have never worked out for me in the past. And everyone I have dated for significant periods of time has moved fairly quickly (within a handful of dates) into sharing the role of initiating – making phone calls, coming up with date plans, paying for part or all of dates, etc.
If you all wish to dismiss what I have to say as “an exception,” that’s fine. But I don’t think – in the case of Meredith – a single invite to a concert is a make or break deal. If it’s the pattern, then I’d agree the guys in question are probably not into her.
Here’s one more point to consider. Being ambivalent can mean many things early on. Because YOU DON’T KNOW EACH OTHER. I have felt sexually attracted to women I wasn’t sure about dating in the long run. That instant chemistry thing that often flames out after a few months. Been through that plenty of times. And I’ve also felt unsure about the sexual attraction with women who I otherwise really liked. There was some attraction, but in the case of one women I ended up dating for three and half years, the attraction took time to build up.
Point being, you can weed out a certain percentage of people as “not interested” early on, but with the rest, whatever is there often won’t be clear for months. Until you actually know each other better.
Kathleen 29
My understanding is that you mirror until a guy expresses his interest in being your boyfriend in an exclusive relationship if thats what you want. I don’t consider showing a guy that you are open warm appreciative and receptive but don’t pursue men to be “playing games”.
If you are a female with lots of masculine energy and you are pursing a guy with more female energy then I think its OK to initiate things but that is a less common situation and you can expect to play the male role in that relationship.
I have noticed an interesting result of this though Ive met a few men out and about. They keep contacting me every few days, I just mirror and yet they haven’t asked me out yet over the last few weeks. Obviously they have something else going on and since they haven’t initiated meeting then it probably time for me to disappear
Liz 30
I am pretty good at not asking them out anywhere, and letting them plan and pursue me. It even feels better when this is done. However, the random cute texts I have to stop. I have deleted a few numbers so I am not tempted between waiting for them to call.
Lilly 31
Yeah, Evan is right as always. Men who are really interested in you will pursue you, sometimes even if he does not get a positive or enthusiastic response from you. If men are interested, they will want to win you over. Meaning, they will and want to learn how to please you, how to make you laugh, tick, say yes, etc. They want to win you over! some even want a challenge. If they see that you value yourself more than him, they cant bear it. They want to please you, the want to make you happy. When they hear yes, they know they have won.
However, some guys feel easily rejected. So they do that enthusiasm or that positive feedback. That said, do not ask men out, especially in the early stages. The first 3 months should be him pursuing you—-always. Then you can start initiating or mirroring plans after that.
I did the mistake of asking a guy out on a second date. He kept pursuing me afterwards, but our feelings towards each other shift a lot. I can sense his ambivalence about me, and he can sense my ambivalence towards him. Sometimes were loving, sometimes were not. But what I realize was, I ruined the relationship by asking him out on that second date. I should have walked away, had self-control, and went on with my life. Because I did ask him out, I suffered through that short, unsatisfied relationship with him in which I never knew if he wanted me or not.
Be the lady and do nothing. Just watch what he does and mirror. Or walk away.
Sabrina 32
Any man who’s ever told me that it’s “sexy” when a woman asks him out because it shows confidence, he’s kidding himself – most men seem to enjoy the novelty for a minute and then remember that they like the chase, and they don’t respect women who make it too easy.
nathan 33
Lilly 31 “I ruined the relationship by asking him out on that second date.” No, it didn’t work out. Most situations don’t. Frankly, if a single action like asking a guy out once after the initial meeting is the nail on a relationship’s coffin, I’d really question if such a relationship ever had a chance over the long term.
“The first 3 months should be him pursuing you—-always.”Sounds like you made this rule up to prevent yourself from having to take any risks. Especially since you added “Be the lady and do nothing.” Sorry, but no man of any worth is going to be attracted to a woman who only mirrors all the time for months on end.
Evan Marc Katz 34
@Nathan – Except for me.
You seem to think that mirroring is a bad idea because YOU don’t like it. You also seem to think that it’s indicative of a lack of interest on the woman’s part.
I can assure you that if you call a woman regularly, and every time you reach out to her, she’s excited about seeing you, you laugh and feel connected, and you fool around a bit at the end of the night, you’ll want to see her again. As such, she shouldn’t have to “do” anything to reach out and make plans with you. If you stand on ceremony because “men and women are equal” and “I shouldn’t have to do that. It’s not fair,” you may. However, since many women are attracted to men who see nothing wrong with doing all the calling/planning during the courtship phase, my mirroring advice has proven to be highly effective. My wife never had to call me to remind me that she existed or to reach out to make plans with me. I was incentivized to do so because I liked her and wanted to see her again. For the life of me, I can’t see why I wouldn’t continue to call her after each date to set up another one. I never saw her as playing games. Because she wasn’t. I was motivated to see her, and when a man is motivated to see a woman, nothing is going to stop him.
And before you make the point about women following such “rules”; these rules are in place to stop women from chasing indifferent men. This is something that happens all the time. If she stops chasing, she can tell if a man’s interested by how often her phone rings.
So please, Nathan, tell us why exactly would you voluntarily stop calling a woman you really liked after three dates? It sure doesn’t make sense to me. It’s like you’re testing her for her interest instead of assuming that the fact that she eagerly picks up the phone, calls you back, and makes plans with you tells the whole story. Seems to me that you should start to pursue women whose company you enjoy instead of waiting for them to step up and pursue you.
Katarina Phang 35
I’m with Evan. Most guys are happy when women just respond positively to their advances, suggestions and initiatives. Many guys would say what Nathan says but when push comes to shove, they’d rather be in charge. They will say “call me” or “ask me out” or “have a plan” but based on my experience, personally or through coaching many women, rarely do they respond positively when women are the initiators or planners.
Men in general feel more at ease when they are the pursuers and initiators. Some are tired of rejection, hence they feel/think they will love it so much when the roles are reversed. Yeah, they do…for about 5 minutes before they’re feeling smothered and starting to pull away from such women.
Some other guys will persist that women should do whatever they like with men (calling, asking them out, whatever) because it doesn’t make any difference to them (or they in fact like women who are go-getters). I always question if such men are actually feminine energy guys instead of the 80% of men who are masculine energy.
Men know it when a woman is into them so they never question their passivity/ mirroring as a lack of interest. Women, otoh, will never know a guy’s intention/real feelings if she does most of the work/initiating. So let him initiate 60% of the time, at the very least. Ideally it’s 70-80% of the time.
Lilly 36
Sorry Nathan, but Evan nailed it! Men knows you exist, we ladies dont need to remind them! And this is what Im talking about. Everytime I asked a guy out (only two times), I felt awful cause I felt like I had drawn my name out on a large cardboard and raise it over a crowd of women to get them to notice me and ask me out. But actually I went over and asked them out. Blegh.
It was so much work. Ugh, tiring I tell ya. And so damn Self-defeating. Our self- esteem hits the ground. Sorry, but I value myself. I want a man who feels motivated to chase me, cause c’mon, we ladies deserve it =). It is not about being a confident enough woman to ask a man out (pssst!). It is about being a woman worthy of being chased. We are the prize. We want to be captured. We want to be desired. That is it.
Thanks Evan. Love you.
marymary 37
Lilly
I feel the real issue isn’t that you asked him out but that you were both ambivalent about each other. So I wouldn’t beat yourself up about it.
For what it’s worth, the most hurtful relationship I had was with someone who pursued me the most.
I pretty much asked the current beau out for our first date. I was fairly sure he would say yes but I was prepared to risk rejection. I have no doubt that he cares about me and if we break up I won’t be kicking myself over that first date. Not when we’ve seen each other dozens of times since. I would say that the initiation of dates is roughly equal but I did wait for him to say ” I like you”, and ”I love you” first. So I mirrored that. But I’m sure there are many women who’ve said “I love you” first and it turned out just fine.
That said, if asking a man out is going to make you doubt yourself, doubt him, and take on the entire blame for any failure in the relationship then it’s not for you.
Finally, there’s a big difference between giving a man who seems interested but clueless a nudge and chasing down a man who isn’t bothered/ambivalent but will take what you have to offer because it’s convenient and will do for now. Learn the difference and it isn’t always as obvious as him pursuing you or not.
nathan 38
Evan, you and I disagree on this. Men are not a monolith, and frankly you might be surprised at what you see if you spent some significant time with guy in their late teens through early 30s these days. Women are not a monolith either. Even amongst your commenters here, women who tend to be over 30 and fairly successful, there are some women who question mirroring to some extent, even if they agree with it as a useful practice.
You did to me exactly what you hate your readers doing: you turned my comment into black and white, as if I’m a game player who sits around waiting for women to purse and tests those who don’t. I never said I’m sitting and waiting. In fact, I never even said that I don’t initiate in the beginning because I usually do. What I’m saying is that in my experience, when I am the one doing all the pursuing, reaching out, and work of setting up dates for an extended period of time, it’s never worked out. The women in those cases tended to like my company well enough, but really weren’t interested in any kind of long term relationship with me. Or in a few cases, we were riding a short term chemistry fix that, once it burned out, revealed how poor a match we were.
People meet and relationships develop in all sorts of ways. The intensity of liking someone or being attracted to someone early on may or may not be indicative of long term success as a couple. A single action in either direction is rarely the “thing” that makes or breaks a relationship. It’s almost always about a cumulative of actions, gestures, etc.
How many women write in here, or recount here, about men who were hot to trot about them for several weeks, or even months, and then suddenly disappear? Or how many talk about the guy who seemed to do “all the right things,” but then chose someone else? Things can follow what seems to be the “right path” for weeks or months on end, only to go no where. Which doesn’t mean I’m advocating that women don’t mirror. What I am advocating is that people be more flexible than what Lilly’s arguing, for example. And frankly, the idea that a woman who is experiencing a lot of interest in a guy should never act upon the impulse to call him or invite him to a concert early on is absurd to me. I’m guessing many of the female readers here have had long term relationships where, even if they used mirroring as a general principle, still acted against it occasionally in reality.
It would be interesting to hear from some of the women on this. You and I can bash heads, but in the end, this is a forum for women. And I’m offering a somewhat different take. That’s all.
Frimmel 39
Well, Nathan, for what it’s worth, I agree with you. It is only fair. It is the mark of a relationship between equals. But it seems even accomplished, intelligent women want placed on pedestals.
I don’t have much sympathy for Lilly at 36. I faced more rejections finding a date for homecoming in high school. Being rejected doesn’t hurt any less just because you have no choice but to move on to the next who you might not be sure if she’s interested in you or a free concert.
Fiona 40
Nathan, it might be that you are the kind of guy not to be put off by a woman doing some of the pursuing but I think that men like you are in the minority. it may also be that some of the women you have dated in the past have done some of the pursuing because a lot of successful women (and i include myself in that category before I knew better) will do just that until they learn that it isn’t generally an effective strategy. In the past, when I have done a lot of the initiation early on, I have just watched men turn from keen to not keen very quickly so I think that Evan’s advice on mirroring is sound. I think that a lot of men panic if women start pursuing them because a lot of them aren’t really sure if they want a relationship at the outset and being the initiator in the early makes them feel that they are choosing a relationship rather than being hunted down and pressured into one.
Kathleen 41
Nathan
I am a woman of 54 I was married for 20 years and dating for the last 4 so I have have acquired some wisdom. It sounds to me like you still don’t get it.
Although Ive have needed lots of masculine energy to survive and also do well in business I am essentially female. I want a masculine man in my love life. Looking back on the last few years whenever Ive initiated things with a guy I have always lost. Ive found mirroring gives me the most clarity and has been very effective for me. Ive been surprised how empowered this makes me feel
Of course a woman starts initiating things but thats after she feels safe and secure with a guy who wants just HER.
I only wish Id known this concept when I was 20 or younger!
Jessica 42
I bought Why He Disappeared and it was exactly what I needed! I took some time off from dating and after meeting a few frogs I’ve now been in a relationship for 2 months. I did it the Evan way of mirroring…
For women like me successful, driven, go-getters we’re here because our neediness or insecurity scared men away and mirroring ensures that you aren’t being needy. You’re giving them a chance to think about you. And if you don’t make the first text or suggest the date then you feel more secure because you know he chose to contact you. He thought you’d enjoy going here or here.
It’s not a game and it’s not rules. It just helps you to balance things. I was always appreciative, bright, fun, happy, and enjoyed myself and let him know that. Just like Evan says in the book. You’re not being aloof you just aren’t chasing someone.
As our relationship progressed our dates became more plans of things that we’d suggest in conversation. But I will say I still get a tingle when he says things like “I really want to take you here” Or “I can’t wait to cook you this the next time you’re over”
As for the OP….I seriously think she needs to do what I did after I became single again get a big circle of friends and don’t be afraid to do things alone. I invited coworkers, friends of friends I’d only met once, and I did lots of things. If your life is busy you’ll have less time to fixate on a guy that isn’t making you a priority and you’ll have so much more fun.
Jenna 43
I agree with Nathan here. 100 percent tit for tat mirroring is absurd. If you remember reading the game where Neil Strauss falls for Lisa, it mentions her making several moves, in fact, and calling him. She also pulled back as well. It’s better to allow yourself room after the first couple dates to make occasional moves instead of beating yourself into a frenzy trying to follow rules. I have plenty of guy feigns who say they don’t mind doing most of the work but don’t want ALL the work either. If you’re a confident , attractive woman with lots of options and other dates and call the guy up spontaneously to suggest something fun, the right guy thinks its cool. Just don’t overdo it and wait till you’ve gone out a reasonable number of times to gauge what feels appropriate.
Teddie 44
All of my more successful relationships, including my 12 year marriage, were initiated by me. I was the one who asked out all three of my teenage sweethearts (long before I’d heard we girls weren’t supposed to do that!). Later I worked in a public library in my 20′s and watched attractive men come and go through those doors. None of them, NOT ONE, asked me out, even though they saw me there smiling and being friendly every time they came in. I finally said “Enough!” and asked one of them out, and he became my husband. He later told me that he would never have asked me because he was afraid I’d have said no. I was also the one who approached the man I’m madly in love with now (for almost two years) and last night I asked him about this. He said he would never have asked me because he was in a low-paying job at the time and didn’t feel “worthy,” and was “taking a break from the dating scene.” Oh, what I would have missed if I simply sat by the phone waiting for it to ring! Who knows why men don’t always make the first move, but I see no harm as a woman in asking him out if he’s not stepping up. What’s the worst that could happen? He says no? He says yes but the relationship doesn’t go anywhere? That happens even when the man does ask first! None of my relationships ever left me wondering what their interest level was (their actions made it clear), and I never felt bad about myself for having started those wonderful, loving relationships. This doesn’t make any sense to me at all! Three of my closest friends (who are single and have no luck with men) have, over time, asked me what my “secret to success” is, and I’ve told them to stop waiting for their lives to happen TO them! Be proactive and make things happen FOR you, and if that means asking a guy out then do it! Of course their response is always, “Oh, no, I could never do that! Women shouldn’t do that!” Huh?!?
I do wonder, though, if it makes a difference whether the men involved are Alphas or Betas. I consider myself a Beta but have been pursued by Alphas now and then and have never liked the constant ego-stroking that was required of me, nor the sitting on the sidelines while they pumped their careers (and their secretaries, waitresses, neighbours, etc.). While their interest in me was initially flattering, they proved to be a lot of work. And most of them disappeared after the conquest of winning me was over anyway. Give me a sweet, humble, shy, devoted Beta ANY day, even if it means I’m the one who has to get the ball rolling. The Betas I have been with ADORED me (and I them), and we were true partners.
Maybe the mirroring thing does work MOST of the time for MOST people, but there are some out there who have found other things that work better for them. Just my two cents.
Goldie 45
I’m conflicted here. The main purpose of this blog, as Evan has stated many times, is to give us women a man’s perspective on things. Nathan is a man and he says he doesn’t like having to initiate all of the time. How is that not a man’s perspective on things? To me, it says that some men do not like having to initiate; if the man you’re seeing appears to be one of these men, then you’ll have to adjust, take turns planning activities, etc.
With a stranger that I just met online a week or two ago (i.e. 1-3 dates) I would probably err on the side of caution. If he suddenly stops calling or scheduling dates, I’m not going to assume that he’s shy and needs me to take initiative. I will assume that he is no longer interested, because 99% of the time, that is the case. We’ve all been hurt before, why take a risk of very probably walking into that situation again? Sorry, shy guys. As a workaround, maybe a shy guy can tell the woman about his preferences. This way she’ll know that, when he disappears from contact, he’s not busy seeing someone else — he just wants to take turns.
Goldie 46
Teddie #44, pursuing a guy worked for me, too, if by “worked” one means marrying the guy, having kids together, staying married for 18 years, together for 22. However, the man I’m talking about is my ex-husband. We started arguing pretty much right after we moved in together. We had a few good years, but all around it was a pretty rocky marriage. I only stop short of saying we should have never married each other because I do not in any way regret having my children. But generally speaking, yeah, I pursued the wrong guy, married him, and we both paid for it. That has definitely soured me on the whole pursuit thing.
Apologize for the double post.
Clare 47
I do agree with the concept that the guy should be the one to ask out first, to phone, make the effort, choose and pay for the first date, if not the first few dates, because, as Evan says, guys are generally comfortable with this protocol.
As far as initiating contact and making plans with someone you already have some connection/relationship with however, I don’t think it is black and white. I don’t think you should do anything that is inauthentic to you because it will feel uncomfortable and will come across that way. If leaning back and letting him do the initiating feels right to you, you should do that. If you are curious to know if/when he will contact you and want that excitement, then wait for him to do so.
If you just have to hear his voice, pick up the phone. Or if you are dying to ask him to the concert, then ask him. I think as long as it’s a win-win situation in the end, there’s no harm.
However, if you find yourself always making more effort for someone who’s not giving back, and you are starting to feel resentful, or neglected or unappreciated, then I think it might be time to pull back that effort or let that guy go for your own sake.
nathan 48
Kathleen 41 – you want the kind of man you want. That’s what you’ve figured out, and for a highly masculine man, mirroring is a great strategy. However, a lot of men aren’t “alpha” – we’re more mixed. What’s interesting to me is that I’ve met plenty of women, and have also talked with women in my family who really felt they wanted the guy running the relationship. They met partners, even husbands who fit this role perfectly. And it worked well during courtship, and even early on in the marriage in a few cases. However, what I’ve heard again and again from women – especially those over 40 – is that they grew tired of having to follow, be a cheerleader and ego stroker. It wasn’t about using a concept like mirroring strategically, it was this belief that the man should lead most or all of the time. It’s appeal greatly faded. I don’t think Evan is advocating that women place themselves behind men in a relationship, but some of the comments from women on this site and others suggest that they take advice like Evan’s too literally, and way too rigidly.
As I have said repeatedly, though, I’m not sitting around waiting for women to ask me out. I’m not shy, nor am I’m someone who expects to be catered to all the time. I advocate for more equal relationships, and yet recognize that you have to be flexible to get there. Although my voice may sound like a minority one, I don’t think I’m that alone out there amongst other men.
Nadia 49
Though I rang in on the side of Evan pretty clearly, it’s for the sake of simplicity of navigating the majority. But I totally agree with Nathan #48. I’ve dated that guy for a while and it was exhausting and left me emotionally deprived.
Hey, Nathan…you single?
Lucy 50
I do prefer if a guy asks me out but it doesn’t really happen here in the UK unless you’re talking about alpha males. It could be my age bracket (early twenties) or that I’m not that attractive. I have read in newspapers that American men are more forward about it and ask women out all the time. Actually I’m not sure if by “asking out”, you mean asking to be exclusive, or simply asking on a date. I have never met a man here who goes on dates. In fact, I have never been on a date in my life except after starting a relationship with someone. Maybe I need to meet more quality men? But a lot of men where I live complain about having to ask women on dates and will insist that woman should ask them on a date. And that’s why myself and most women I know (including the really hot ones) seldom get asked out. I’m not entitled though. I do not think anyone owes me anything. I’m only pointing out the status quo.
As for courting, I don’t think it should be the case that the man arranges everything unless he’s insistent. I’d honestly feel like I had no personality if I went along with everything a guy did without giving my input.
Frimmel 51
Nathan in #48 : “As I have said repeatedly, though, I’m not sitting around waiting for women to ask me out. I’m not shy, nor am I’m someone who expects to be catered to all the time. I advocate for more equal relationships, and yet recognize that you have to be flexible to get there. Although my voice may sound like a minority one, I don’t think I’m that alone out there amongst other men.”
I’m one of those other men. I don’t expect to be catered to. I also don’t expect to always do the catering. Are you a strong, smart, successful woman or a vapid, vain, spoiled princess? I’d ask the women who expect to be won to consider what happens to a trophy after it is taken home.
Soul 52
I am with Nathan on this one, because his answer was not black or white, it was nuanced. To give tribute to Evan, I do think that the mirroring technique is perfect at the beginning, when you are evaluating the guy and his level of interest.
Once you have a fair idea of his level of interest and integrity, you can do whatever you want, provided it does not come from a needy place. It all depends on your expectations. Asking him out will not make him like you if he does not. And even if he accepts to come, it does not mean he likes you. It means nothing. (in the same vein, a man will accept to have sex with you even if he does not like you. Gladly so). The mirroring technique if for you to DISCOVER his level of interest.
So just be honest with yourself and evaluate your own expectations. If your move is a manipulative strategy to make him like you, do not invite him.
If you feel like inviting him somewhere fun, you can do it, provided you do not read anything in his positive response. That’s it.
The most attractive feature in women is confidence. This is the 21st century.
RW 53
@Nathan
I remember a piece of advice from a male friend when I asked him for his opinion a few years ago. I had been on a date with a man I met on eHarmony and it went fairly well, I thought. I sent him a note saying I enjoyed the night and I didn’t hear back from him after that. I was agonizing over whether or not to contact him one last time before giving the whole thing up as a bad job when my friend said to me – “If a man is interested in you, he will get in touch.” The advice is so basic and obvious, it almost sounds trite. I’ve found though that it’s some of the hardest advice to act on and to really take to heart. I’m all for equality in relationships but social constructs are what they are. There is nothing at all that prevents a man from continuing to ask a woman for dates. If he is interested, he will ask. There is no social taboo (correct or incorrect) that prevents him from doing so. If a woman doesn’t call, it is reasonable to suspect that it might be because society expects her to wait. If a man doesn’t call it is generally because he isn’t interested.
In any case, I think mirroring is only advocated as a way of gauging a man’s interest. To give context to my post, I’m only talking about the first 5 – 10 dates or however long it takes the couple to establish mutual interest and/or a relationship. I can see how this would get annoying very quickly after the first little while (“first little while” being subjective for each couple). During that time, if a woman is 100% that he’s interested, she should call him by all means. The thing is, she won’t have to. He’ll call her before she calls him. On the other hand if she’s uncertain, calling him is the worst thing she can do, IMHO anyway. There’s always the argument that if he’s ambivalent, she might make her case by pursuing him. But do you really want to have to convince your man to date you?
brown_eyes 54
Lucy, to attract more guys and get them to ask you out, you need to do you part: make sure you are wearing makeup, high heels, sexy clothes, hair done, nails painted, the works! If you do this everytime with a big smile on your face I can promise you they will be asking you out like crazy! (:
Fiona 55
Lucy, I am also in the UK and I am 15 years older than you. In that time I have learned that most men won’t ask most women out but those that really like a woman usually will unless they are seriously lacking in confidence. It isn’t like the US where people are asking people out on formal dates all the time (except online) but if a man likes you in a social setting he will want to talk to you and given sufficient encouragement he will then either ask you to do something or ask for your number so that he can. The word ‘date’ may not be mentioned but he may ask if you’d like to go for dinner (or more likely in our heave drinking culture, drinks). In my experience dinner is a far better option. Plenty of men here will complain to me that women don’t ask them out and I just remind them that is their job. Most of them do seem to know that but are just scared of rejection. Often I find that it is a way to sound me out to see if I might be interested as it is usually coupled with effusive compliments. However, if they don’t have the courage to actually ask, it is usually because I haven’t been putting out signals to show that I am interested or they are too timid for me.
henriette 56
Oh, how I wish I’d taken this advise to heart a few decades ago! My mother tried to warn me but, since the counsel came from a parent, I of course rolled my eyes and told her that she was “out of touch” with men of our generation. Well, here’s Evan — an educated guy of our generation — and now (better late than never?!) I am finally a believer.
But, a question. Let’s say that our OP, Meredith, had already asked one of these dudes to the concert before Evan had a chance to respond. They attended, had a nice time, and he called her afterwards to ask her out again. Has she blown for good it by having asked him out, once, or is there room for her to re-establish the desired equilibrium by returning to mirroring?
I’m friends with two married guys in their 40s whose now-wives asked them out, first. They say that they’d firmly believed that women of this caliber (hot, fun, successful) would never go for them (bright, slightly-geeky, normal guys) so the initial invitations acted as sort of green lights in their brains… Ah, we’ve been given permission to start pursuing these babes! Incidentally, once the initial invitations were extended by their now-wives, the guys went into full chase mode and the women sat back, were wooed and mirrored.
@Frimmel51. Yeah, most women reading this are strong and bright and confident but we come here because that hasn’t served us well in the dating realm. We’ve remained single making interesting conversations and cracking hilarious jokes while again and again and again the vapid princesses toss their hair, simper and marry. Evan’s not trying to turn us into entitled Fembots but rather teach us the only thing that the princesses do right: let the guys act and feel like men. I never wanted/ expected to be won but the alternative hasn’t worked.
marymary 57
henriette
To answer your question:
I didn’t ask the beau out lightly. I discussed my dilemma with two married female friends, both been married for over twenty years. It was their idea. One of them put it this bluntly “men are dumb. you have to tell them what to do.” her husband is the treasurer of a major uk entity so she wasn’t talking about his intelligence or ability, just that he was clueless about certain things. Aren’t we all? He’s smart, authoritative, takes on leadership roles at work and in the charity sector, and earns vastly more than she does; she is nurturing, kind and compassionate. it’s not about her wearing the trousers. They’re a partnership.
another friend of mine who has been with her man for over ten years also gave me the green light. She described her partner, an energy consultant with a good income who travels internationally on business as “useless” when it comes to arranging their social life.
Now, I’m not saying that men are dumb and useless, but a signficant proportion may not be acting on what’s expected of them. They may be only 20% (to pluck a figure out of thin air) of men , but if you know a few hundred people, you know sixty men like that.
I’ve had feedback from friends, male and female, that I can be intimidating. I don’t see it myself but I did take it on board. He can be uncertain about asking me out without being a wuss.
The safest option IS to mirror 100%, but some of us have been around the block enough times to nuance that.
and I must reiterate I’m in no way recommending pursuing men who are not interested or, worse (much worse), ambivalent. Once we got over that first date hurdle (we’d been moving in the same circles for months), I’ve had no reason to doubt him.
Barry 58
Well I am also in the Uk.
So let me show how it looks from the male point of view.
Men learn very early on that asking women they find attractive out on a date leads to a shed load of rejection.
Women, brainwashed into not settling for second best, end up rejecting everybody.
Men then either give up completely, or revert to plan B.
Plan B involves flirting, in the hope that the woman shows some sort of interest. If the women give ambiguous signals, that is as far as it goes, unless he is really keen.
This makes the social interaction far more nuanced. Unfortunately men don’t do nuanced. Men are clueless when it comes to knowing what women are thinking.
Women who do not give very strong buying signals may well lose out.
Also, I have been rejected by women just for being friendly. So even women cannot tell whether a man is flirting or not and now assume any vocal communication is a pick up attempt and a valid enough reason to tell a guy to **** off.
And then we have the women who flirt outrageously just to get validation.
Sending out buying signals when their purse is empty. Men stagger away from the inevitable rejection clueless as to how they misread the situation.
Is it any wonder that men start to think that this is a game they can’t win?
Julia 59
@Nathan if a man asks me out 2-3 time then pulls back like you say you do, I assume he’s lost interest in me. The problem with pulling back and testing is that it upsets and established order that you’ve created by initiating with a woman. Why would a woman with any dignity respond to a man who pulls back by pursuing him. She might get to sleep with him a few times without dinner if she does but she’s not getting a relationship like that. I think that if you want to see if a woman is interested in you, you need to be the one to suggest she call you.
BTW I am 31, I date the same generation of men that you describe and they are pretty much the same as an generation of men, EXCEPT they have access to easier sex. Dating is in fact trickier for people our age but because men don’t have to pursue with cheap sex.
Ellen 60
Mating in the UK sounds really depressing to me from the female vantage point. Glad I live here.
PS I always attract a certain amount of attention wherever I go being a long-haired redhead and nice figure, etc., but come to think of it I got like no real attention in the UK the last two times I was there. Irish men are MUCH flirttier. lol
Lucy 61
@brown_eyes – I’m usually too laid back to be glamorous but I will try that. I am presentable but I often leave the house without make-up because I’m very comfortable with myself. People have told me I don’t need it. Thanks
@Fiona - Yeah I think you’re both right. If I don’t show enough interest then the guy doesn’t get enough of a signal to do anything. But I have realised that recently and noticed the difference. I’ve never had anyone ask me out to dinner for an initial date and definitely would not expect it.
And Barry, I have never told a guy to get lost because he was being friendly. I am a good person and I like talking to new people. I go on dates with anyone I find attractive and who doesn’t show that they’re an immediate no go. I mean, I can’t really be sure about someone unless I know them better. I wouldn’t want someone to reject me without much thought so should be the same vice versa. I do flirt a lot though. That might be my undoing sometimes.
Fiona 62
I can see Barry’s point that it isn’t always easy to tell whether a woman is really interested or just being polite. At social functions, if I am approached by a man I am interested in, I am probably not going elsewhere for conversation (or not for long). If I am approached by a man that I am not interested in I will be polite but will try to get away at the earliest opportunity if I think he is interested so perhaps that helps. If a woman is talking to only you for a long time (other than about something heated and controversial) and smiling and being friendly when she has other options then she is probably interested. If she moves away quickly, looks disinterested or starts looking around the room, she probably isn’t. It may surprise men to learn that women don’t like having to reject men any more than men like being rejected so most us are going to try pretty hard to avoid giving out interested or ambiguous signals to men that we are not interested in.
AS 63
@Sabrina #32 – I could not have put that better myself! Men definitely need the chase because if they think that they can get a wonderful woman without doing anything, they then start to believe that if they put in some effort, they certainly could get an even better woman! Even if this may not be true.
Tom10 64
Barry
“men stagger away from the inevitable rejection clueless as to how they misread the situation…is it any wonder that men start to think that this is a game they can’t win?”
Your experience is so different to mine; I actually think ‘this game’ is so much fun. What works for me is to be happy, smiley, flirty, positive and approachable to every woman. So what if she’s not interested / gay / got a boyfriend etc. She will generally make her situation clear to you quite quickly at which point you either walk away or ask her out. Why bother thinking too much about nuance, signals etc? If she’s not interested it’s no problem, just move on. The vast majority of women will reply in a friendly and courteous manner even if they’re not interested. With this approach you can’t lose.
“I have been rejected by women just for being friendly.”
I think the key for men is to get used to rejection at an early age and realize that most women won’t want you, so it’s just a matter of finding the ones that do. I stopped caring about rejection about 8 years ago.
Regarding Nathan and Evan et al. I don’t think your positions are that far apart. We all agree that men should generally make the effort at the start to indicate his interest (so that you know he’s not just taking “what you have to offer because it’s convenient and will do for now” as marymary said), so the point of discussion is really at what point should the woman step up and be more proactive.
Kathleen 65
Julia 59 I agree with you that if a guy pulls back after 3 dates he’s not interested
Frimmel 51
” Are you a strong, smart, successful woman or a vapid, vain, spoiled princess? I’d ask the women who expect to be won to consider what happens to a trophy after it is taken home.”
Well after I was “won”by my ex husband I was happily married for a couple of decades … I don’t understand your trophy analogy What point are you trying to make?
For women its about about determining who has genuine interest . There are plenty of guys out there who just want to get laid by anyone and could care less about me as an individual I need to see who they are. I have 6 guys in the dating pipeline right now. A guy who I met 2 weeks ago who I had big chemistry with, who I met out. has maintained email contact and hasn’t asked me out! Another guy who I had less chemistry arranged a great dinner and has followed up closely with me . That would be less clear if I was pursuing the chemistry guy.
Again , if a guy has more female energy and prefers to be pursued by a masculine energy woman , thats probably the right match and will probably work out fine since you are well matched
Teddie 66
@Barry #58: I think there are A LOT of men here in the States in your shoes! I can’t tell you how many of my male friends have said the same thing to me; that they’re clueless when it comes to women and have no idea when it’s “safe” to pursue. This is EXACTLY why I have no problem asking a man out. Sure, I flirt a little to see if I catch him looking at me as the night goes on. If I do, I’ll go right on up and ask him. There have just been too many missed opportunities when a man and I were flirting, he was CLEARLY interested, but he never asked. Knowing from personal experience that when I HAVE asked it’s been quite successful, why wouldn’t I do it again? Maybe Aphas have this innate sense of what to say/do to get a woman to go out with them but I also think this makes them cocky and egotistical, and I can’t for the life of me understand why women are so attracted to such high-maintenance men like this but I see it everywhere!
Yes, the purpose of this blog is to get a man’s honest perspective. ONE man’s honest perspective. Nathan is also a man and he has a different perspective from Evan. So does Barry. Ask a hundred men and you will get a hundred different perspectives (although there will no doubt be some recurring themes). I don’t think it’s fair for people to post “This worked for me, so therefore it’s the only correct way to go” statements. I have personally used some of what I’ve read on this blog in my life. Some of it worked well for me, and some of it hasn’t. Mirroring works for some (it looks like the majority), but it’s not for everyone. I really do think it works extremely well for Alpha males, but if you’re looking for more of a Beta, then maybe not so much. I’m not an extroverted Alpha, but I am definitely no withering wallflower and what I found to be my experience with Alphas was that when I acted against my nature and let them take the lead in the beginning, then when we started getting into the flow of the relationship and my true personality came out (the one can make decisions for herself, like what car to buy or where I want to eat lunch), they would say I’d changed and was no longer what they were looking for. I want a man who is attracted to me as a strong, confident woman, not a man who wants me to hide in his shadow, so I will continue to do what works for me. So should all of you!
Selena 67
@Nathan
I was doing “mirroring” naturally for decades before reading about it here. Never even knew it was a *concept*. Believe it’s the best (and easiest) way to gauge the level of a man’s interest early on. That said, you made a number of good points in this thread. You said you were interested in hearing from women here, so I’ll share a story you may relate to.
A dozen years ago I started seeing a man I met through a mutual friend. He had 2, sometimes 3 jobs, but even so made time for me several days a week, even if it was only for 30 min. – 2 hours between jobs. He called me every day to say “Hi” and ask me how my day was going. After 2-3 weeks he made the comment on the phone one day, “You never call me.” I always answered the phone when he called, but it never occured to me to call him first. (I don’t call people when they are at work unless it’s necessary – don’t want to interupt them, or cause a problem with their employer.) I told him this. He told me I could call him anytime.
I got the point that it wasn’t about him “doing all the work”, for him, having the woman he was dating call him was a sign she was as interested in him as he was in her. So some days I tried to call him before he could call me! Give that reasurrance. This might also be looked at as a form of mirroring.
Had he stopped calling me simply because I never called him…I would assumed he lost interest in me. It would never have occured to me he was put off because we weren’t “taking turns”. We ended up being partners for several years, and those “check in” calls continued through most of our relationship – regardless of who made them first each day.
Michelle 68
It’s amazing with all these challenges of the sexes that people get together, date, get married and have families. Maybe it’s not as difficult as many of these posts indicate?
Candy 69
Well, the OP hadnt heard from the guy in a week! RED FLAG. I mean, she can mirror his initiation and interest, but clearly there is nothing to mirror here. He has not even texted her or made contact in any form in 7 days. He knows she exist! I think her plan to invite him is a weak attempt to say ‘Hey Im alive! I can prove to you that I am amazing and you will want to see me again.’ Sorry ladies, but do not put yourself in a position to beg a man for attention! Men do what they want. If he had initiated and shown interest throughout the week, her attempt to initiate plans with him would fly. But the OP has not heard from the guy in a week! I would drop him and move on with my life. “nough said.
henriette 70
@Michelle68 Maybe it’s not that difficult for some, but for those of us who make the effort to seek out & comment upon a blog about dating advice, it probably is.
@Lucy50 I think dating in parts of Canada is the same as described above in the UK. I was shocked when I moved here from the US to discover that men seemed to rarely ask out women. The pattern I behold again and again is: workplace flirtation; finally a drunken hookup after a work event/ drinks with the work crowd; exclusivity within days; moving in within a few months; marriage followed by either divorce and bitterness or lifelong relief/ gratitude to be out of the mystifying singles pool.
I assert that each time women treat a man with anything but kindness & respect (even when rejecting him) and each time men behave callously with a woman, we’re helping to create an ambivalent, timid, confused dating environment. Shame on all of us!
Lucy 71
@Henriette – That’s really interesting. And I totally agree with what you said. The more people treat each with respect, the better. I try not to lead men on. I will talk to anyone who approaches me because I’m a friendly person. But it’s hard if a guy gets a signal of your interest from that. I hate having to reject men. My best method is unfortunately to scan the room, not to flirt back and just to act awkward. Maybe I should be telling men I’m not interested in that I want to have all their babies, and then I’ll veto myself out rather than having to reject them.
susan 72
i agree that mirroring is the way to go BUT i also think think that you”know”, you really do, if the guy is keen enough to want another date, regardless of who does the asking.
my young man (said slightly but not entirely tongue in cheek) and I definitely ”took turns” at the asking in the beginning but right from the get go I never ever felt that I was doing any chasing. It was just easy and I felt safe. In fact I used a line I read on another dating site…or was it here? (which I’ve used in the past and works well) : ”I reckon if you asked me out I’d probably say yes”. It made him laugh – and he did, and I did. And that was coming on for 5 months ago.
Birdlife 73
Question for you – I agree with EMK “but” what do you do when for example you have just started seeing someone (witin the first few dates) – you are not yet an “item” and it’s your birtday coming up and what you want to do is throw a big all out party inviting all your friends etc – to invite new man or not?
To invite would be what I would be inclined to do – but this goes against EMK’s mirroring (and it doesn’t help the burgeoning dynamic, I know).
To not invite seems mean – not the sort of vibes I would want to be giving out either.
Thoughts?
Frimmel 74
Kathleen in 65
The trophy analogy is that they get put on a shelf and dusted occasionally. So to go all sports metaphor for all teams a trophy is a big deal. But some teams treasure them more because they don’t win them often. For others, who are always at the top, it quickly becomes about the next chase and the next challenge and a new prize to be won. So as Nathan is pointed out a willingness to chase the prize isn’t necessarily an indication of a good fit.
Barry in 58
Totally been there and agree. Particularly with the validation thing. That is a really ego deflating one. You’re not undesirable or unqualified or instantly rejectable or else there wouldn’t be any validation. You’re doing something right. However, you’re not quite good enough and you’re enough not good enough that she doesn’t mind that she burns the bridge. I usually just hope there weren’t any witnesses. Often that sort of woman comes back for more validation because she’s confused your, in pick-up parlance, not an alpha with being a beta-orbiter. It is fun to withhold that validation.
Re: coping with rejection
It is why men seem to have a bit of emotional armor or seem to be out of touch with their feelings or not very sensitive. You’d darn well better get a thick skin and an ability to compartmentalize or you’ll spend all your time feeling sorry for yourself. You’re going to fail at all sorts of things as a man and you have to deal with it and the way to deal with it is to shut yourself off from your feelings. More succinctly, “Man, up.” This is explained by Warren Farrell in “Why Men are the Way they Are.”
Great Girl 75
@Frimmel 74: I guess you’ve hit the nail on the head on one fundamental difference in how men and women deal with rejection. You stated that men ‘deal with it is to shut yourself off from your feelings’. How sad for couples when men or women use this strategies WITHIN relationships as well. These ‘men’ who have ‘manned up’ end up shutting out their partners as well. Of course, they may not realize this as they are only protecting themselves from feelings that they don’t want to feel and or deal with. What the woman experiences is that the man has shut down and won’t communicate anymore and she ends up feeling unloved, therefore rejected and the vicious circle continues.
Knowing this doesn’t make any difference at all. Courage, not knowledge is needed.
When we are able to be vulnerable in a relationship, when we allow our partners to see our weaknesses and know us in the fullest sense (not just the BEST parts of ourselves); if we take a leap of faith that our partner will embrace and accept ALL of us, then we will find true love.
If either person is afraid to be this vulnerable, then we have people pretending and being inauthentic. How can anything deep come out of pretense?
I guess the question is about whether each of us is brave enough to be this vulnerable?
Barry 76
Ah the the wisdom of pick up artists. Well I will not disagree with the points raised.
However, its not what drives men in the real world. Men may develop thick skins, or they may just commit suicide.
This hot off the press:
Mail online “lonely Britain”
The number of single men living alone between the ages of 45 and 64 has nearly doubled since 1995.
“ men who have not committed to long-term relationships or whose marriages have been ended by divorce are finding it harder to win partners once they reach middle age.
One reason could be that middle-aged women with good qualifications and jobs have little interest in forming relationships with lower-earning men.”
Well you only have to read the posts of Fiona et al, above to get a flavour of this. The evidence is that men do not develop thick skin – the evidence is that men give up trying.
Recently a girlfriend pointed out a single male acquaintance. ” I think he must be gay – he doesn’t flirt with women” Having been in conversation with him, I knew the real reason: “Who would want me ?” he had exclaimed. A totally crushed ego. Too many rejections.
A Sandy sized storm has hit relationships, and we are only now finding the full extent of the damage.
It is easy to blame men for not “manning up”, but the truth is that there has been a social revolution and women’s increased demands and expectations can no longer be met.
This is a problem created by women, and I guess they are the only ones that can change this
Frimmel 77
Great Girl in 75
That is one of the reason’s I like some early reciprocation. If I’m the only one who is ever ‘the man’ in the relationship, then down the road the likelihood I’ll get to expose any sort of weakness (i.e. my feelings or fears) diminishes if it ever exists in the first place. And to a degree society needs that inauthentic, don’t have feelings in men. Poets don’t rush into burning buildings. Isn’t there an article here about men not going both ways with regards to sharing their feelings?
This website exists largely in my thinking to a very old idea in men’s rights, “Feminism freed women from their gender role. It did not free men.” Look at this thread and how often “you have to let the men be men” and how often “I want men to chase me” has come up. So you get a bit of a chicken and an egg thing don’t you? Which came first, the desire to be ‘men’ in males or the expectation from women that males would be ‘men.’
What’s the advice centered around here? Telling women who’ve very much stepped out of the ‘traditional’ female role being told how to step back into it.
Frimmel 78
Barry in 76
“It is easy to blame men for not “manning up”, but the truth is that there has been a social revolution and women’s increased demands and expectations can no longer be met.”
Women can’t find men with jobs as good as theirs because they’ve beat that guy out for the job and he had to take a ‘lesser’ job. One summer we had an intern in my engineering department. Good looking kid, maybe a bit skinny but no reason he shouldn’t be unappealing to girls. He told me about how he’d be at parties or a bar at school (very large state university) and he’d be chatting up some ladies and they’d ask him what he was studying and how his answer of engineering always managed to be a buzzkill.
Frimmel 79
Aaargh, — “no reason he should be unappealing”
Liz 80
Dating is such an amazingly grey area. I feel like the mirroring is more to protect us, as women, from our inherent ability to follow our hearts and fall head- over –heels for someone that is not open to loving us back, or simply doesn’t want to. To guard against the whole look for sex, and if love happens, great dynamic.
It is nearly impossible to do tit for every tat, once in awhile you will tell someone how you feel or say ” it would be great to go here with someone,” or “I would love to go here instead for dinner” which can be viewed as foreshadowing and planning, but that is life. Do what works for you in protecting your heart and your feelings, and makes you feel good, and the byproduct will be that you are welcoming, appreciative and fun to be around. I do believe when men are around a women that is like that, that they want, there is no stopping them from seeing her and wanting to be with her. They will take the lead in planning dates, calling, planning ahead. But there is no way to manipulate the person to be in that spot, only ways to allow the process to go more smoother by staying somewhat aloof for self preservation.
Selena 81
@Susan #72
I think you made a great point there. Sometimes people really hit it off and the “taking turns” thing just comes naturally – no angst about it. In such a case the two people are probably in frequent contact with each other. The sticking point for me in Meredith’s letter is that she hadn’t heard from either guy for an unspecified length of time. They may not have lost interest, but they weren’t interested enough apparently to make sure she knew they were interested. KWIM? A guy who’s really interested keeps the momentum going because he doesn’t want the woman he’s hot for to lose interest in him.
Maybe there are men out there who play hard-to-get, but I suspect they are relatively few lol.
nathan 82
Julia 59 and Selena 67. I get the point about seeing a man not responding after a few dates as a sign of lack of interest. When I think about the times I have tried to gauge a woman’s interest after X number of dates early on, it’s never been a total disappearance and wait for her to come to me act. Usually, it involves shifting the level of contact between dates. Instead of rushing to set up the next date, I might wait a few days to see if she makes any attempt to contact me. I have occasionally done what Selena’s guy did and say something directly about her lack of contacting me, but that depends upon the level of contact as well. If you’re talking in some form every day, you’ve developed enough of a connection where a guy could say something more directly in a way that doesn’t seemed forced, needy, or controlling.
A lot of the dating situations I’m thinking of involve seeing someone, then having a week pass with little contact in between, and then going on another date. After another date, then there might be a call or an e-mail in between to say hello and how’s it going. The point being that the contact is slower in build up, and so it’s more difficult to say anything directly without it seeming forced or odd somehow. The majority of dating situations don’t go from you’ve never met to talking to each other every day, so I think it’s more difficult for a man to successful pull off deliberately changing a dynamic like this. It’s safer to either keep stepping up and hoping she’s really into you, or doing more subtle things like I mentioned above. Since many men are, as Barry points out, terrible at subtle, they mostly keep pushing for dates until it’s made totally obvious to them that the woman isn’t interested.
Julia 59: “The problem with pulling back and testing is that it upsets and established order that you’ve created by initiating with a woman. Why would a woman with any dignity respond to a man who pulls back by pursuing him.” First off, whether dignity is involved depends upon the nature of the “pull back.” There’s a wide spectrum between total disappearance and pushing for another date the moment the current one is over. Secondly, I see this “established order thing” as similar to the man pays for dates thing. It’s being done as much to follow social expectations as to demonstrate real interest. I can ask you out again every time early on, and still lose interest once I get to know you better. I can make it really easy for you to show up and have a good time with me, and yet I may end up only wanting sex. As you pointed out, dating in our generation and younger generations is more tricky, and I’d say for a variety of reasons, good and not so good.
Overall, I think the best way to approach dating is to combine being who you actually are with some level of experimenting. So, for the outgoing woman who has had little luck with being the initiator, it makes sense to employ mirroring, as long as she doesn’t, in the process, end up hiding or giving up her strength and desires in the process. And for someone like Kathleen who recognizes that she wants a man to lead in the relationship, then certainly mirroring is going to be valuable. The difference though between experimenting and following rules is that you pay attention to results, and make adjustments based upon variable conditions. Evan advocates mirroring because of the results his clients have had. I’d argue his clients are a very particular subset of women who tend to both be outgoing and financially successful, but also want men in the lead of their relationships.
Lucy 83
@Barry – I understand what you are saying. The only thing I feel sure I’m responsible for is my own reality. I am not there to ‘fix’ men who have otherwise given up on women. I feel sorry for what they’ve experienced. But I disagree with what you are saying. If I come across a man who lacks trust in women because of past experiences, then I think it’s his issue to deal with. And I’m not gender biased. I’d say the same about women. Men should not feel responsible for women who’ve lost trust in men because of bad experiences in the past.
Your point of view appears to very black and white i.e. “Men may develop thick skins, or they may just commit suicide.” I don’t think it has to be like that. I’m not sure I’ve developed the thickest skin for rejection. But I don’t care. I acknowledge that I’m human and that I will feel weak sometimes. I acknowledge that my emotions are the way they are. When I think it those terms, it makes me feel less afraid. I got there through CBT. I learnt to think “Okay I might be rejected. But is it really as bad as I’m imagining?”.
You read too much into newspaper articles too. It isn’t fact. If you can’t read those articles without getting upset then don’t read them at all. You can only work that stuff out by looking at your own life anyway.
I confess to not self-identifying as a feminist. Still I wouldn’t use gender-loaded terms like “man up” although I do tell myself to man up sometimes! I don’t think I have unhealthy expectations of men but will give what you say some thought. It always helps to hear insight from the other side, and that is why I read this blog.
Barry 84
Lucy
Hear what you say. Of course it isn’t black and white.
I know plenty of men who have essentially given up, and I know that their options would improve if they changed their mindset.
Doesn’t alter the fact that they are screwed.
Frimmel makes the valid point that the reason women like Fiona cannot find peers is that they have taken the men’s jobs.This is what the newspaper article surmises.
The data comes from the Office of National Statistics though, so is pretty accurate. A very fast increase in men unable to find partners.
I think the thing to watch out for is men approaching women expecting to be rejected. Insufficient positive feedback may be interpreted as lack of interest.
serena grace 85
I also see a plethora of middle age men in the U.S. having no luck finding a partner…. They’re the guys who consider women 10-15-20 years younger and 50-75% better looking than themselves as their target range….
Tom10 86
Barry
I don’t mean to proffer wisdom as a PUA rather empathize with you and share how I managed to change, as I have been through the full gamut of emotions you describe. I (and probably all men) have experienced the pain of rejection, the despair, despondency, depression and self-doubt (partially) due to no luck with women.
However, women are not the problem. The vast majority of women are kind, decent people who just want to live a good life, be respected and to love and be loved. They really don’t want to hurt men. Yes some of them have unrealistic expectations but so do many men (myself included).
“I know that their options would improve if they changed their mindset”
You’ve already acknowledged that these men would do better if they changed their outlook, and through good diet, regular exercise, sufficient sleep and being positive one can change their mindset. Allied with these steps I go easy on the booze, read the news sparingly and cut negative people out of my life.
As Lucy said, no-one else’s behaviour is responsible for my emotions. I am solely responsible for how I feel.
Mickey 87
@Barry:
“It is easy to blame men for not “manning up”, but the truth is that there has been a social revolution and women’s increased demands and expectations can no longer be met.”
What you said above is true to a point. I’ll only add this: when you have a lot of women who openly express their intolerance for the male of the species, and say without hesitation that NO man is ever good enough for them, then none of us should be shocked that gender relations have hit an all time low.
Barry 88
Tom10
Thanks, however it isn’t my problem as I’m actually very successful with women !
However that doesn’t apply to most men. Women’s attitudes are resulting in millions of men going without. Women ARE the problem, and if they are not why the phenomenal increase in single men living alone?
Fiona 89
Barry why are you on here if you are so successful with women? Just to attack women? You think women don’t suffer rejection? I can’t count the number of men who told me they didn’t want a relationship. Last night I had to see a male friend I had been getting closer to for months go off with one of my girlfriends. Then I had to hear one of those poor but ever so lovely middle nen you refer to ask another male friend if he would be taking me home because he fancied a go. I left in disgust. If only that sort of thing were an isolated incident -it isn’t I’m afraid and I don’t feel if such men end up alone.
justme 90
@ Barry #88
“if they are not why the phenomenal increase in single men living alone?”
For the answer, go back and read serena grace @ 85.
Mickey 91
@ Justine 90 & Serena 85:
When I was having my losing streak through my 20′s (in college) & 30′s (beyond), believe me, I wasn’t chasing women 10-20 years younger than me.
Barry 92
I guess I’m stepping on a few toes here.
But it seems fair to put the man’s view.
You think I’m such a Wus that I should just validate all your “there are no good men” nonsense.
As Evan says, you never hear men say there are no good women.
No, women are beautiful, affectionate creatures, and men value them and want to be with them. Its just that women make very stupid dating choices.
Fiona, I am really sorry about the rejection you experienced the other day. I know it hurts. I lost someone I deeply loved to a ‘friend’ and the trauma was so profound it took years to get over it (if I ever have).
However I did point out that focusing on Mr Rich would lead to heavy competition from your sisters who would give no quarter in their eagerness to obtain the prize. Please go back and read it again.
I say again, would it not make more sense to be open to men who actually want you ?
And to justme and grace, I can only say I know many men who are single but do not want to be and they all have one thing in common.
But since a few are in their 20s, clearly its not because they are holding out for much younger women !
You know what the article (written by a woman by the way) said.
I can only assume you are in denial.
Clare 93
Barry,
I think your comments are well-intentioned, but they make me feel a little angry. If there is one inescapable impression that reading this blog leaves you with, it is that there are indeed many lonely and heart broken women as well who would love to find someone. Please do not bemoan the chronic state of lonely men to the exclusion of all else and imply, no explicitly state, that women are the problem.
For every man who has experienced a woman who should give him a shot and doesn’t want him, I can *assure* you there is a woman in the same position.
Do you realise that you cannot have a certain number of single and alone men without having an equal number of single and alone women, since men and women exist in more or less equal proportion in the world?
I am not saying that there aren’t many things that can be done about this, and your suggestion about being open to people who want you is very valid and good advice, but please don’t imply to us that women who can’t be pleased is the sole source of the problem.
Tom10 94
My apologies Barry, I incorrectly inferred that you had issues with women and rejection.
“women ARE the problem, and if they are not why the phenomenal increase in single men living alone?”
Well some men choose to live alone, but I accept that many men of all ages are living alone but would rather have a partner.
However, the universe doesn’t owe men sex. The universe doesn’t owe men or women a relationship. The onus is on each individual to improve themselves and go out and create their own reality themselves. That is what the women on this blog are doing – laudably.
Unfortunately I witness a lot of men wallow in self pity or turn to drink / gambling / drugs etc. rather than sorting out their issues. These issues are not the fault of women. Many (most?) women are surprisingly forgiving on a man’s appearance and job if he’s got his shit together.
Barry 95
Clare
I understand your anger. I could have said that there is a breakdown in relationships that both sexes must bear responsibility for in equal measure.
That would certainly be diplomatic. It would also be a lie.
The article, written by a woman, said that there was an increasing number of single men caused by women rejecting the men.
So I have clearly not come up with this idea in a vacuum.
How could anyone come to that conclusion ?
With greater equality, women’s expectations in the work place and life in general has increased. If anything, men’s expectations have fallen.
These expectations spill over into the dating sphere. Women want better quality men, but now there are even less than before.
We have a woman on this very thread, whilst bemoaning her single status, has stated that she will only accept men who probably represent less than one per cent of the total male population.
Other women on the blog have commiserated with her plight.
This attitude appears pervasive.
I am not saying any more than Mickey or Frimmel, so why the anger ?
Could it be because you suspect I am correct ?
Tom10 – I agree we should take whatever action is required to be more acceptable. We cannot change the attitudes of the opposite sex.
RW 96
>> I am not saying any more than Mickey or Frimmel, so why the anger? Could it be because you suspect I am correct ?
No Barry, not because you are correct but because you appear to be placing one-sided blame. Perhaps I missed context somewhere but are you talking about a certain category of women? Or just women in general? I am also not as angry or personally offended as I am puzzled about why someone so clearly eloquent as you is arguing such an absurd point. It wouldn’t be diplomatic to say that both sexes bear the responsibility for the breakdown in relationships; it would be the truth. I agree with you: women are to blame. So are men.
I didn’t read the article but I did see the bits that you quoted. I didn’t interpret that as “women are the problem” but rather as “women want different things than they have in the past”. If men are unable to provide what the women are looking for, it’s a two-sided problem, wouldn’t you say? Women need to adjust their expectations and men need to improve the offering.
I would not also say that “women want better quality men.” It’s just that the definition of quality has changed. Again, I am not denying that women can be too picky, too difficult, too whatever but so can men. For every woman who will only accept “less than one percent of the total male population”, there is another who would make a perfectly good wife to men who have rejected her repeatedly because she wasn’t enough. Enough what? I don’t know and she doesn’t either. The world is changing rapidly, expectations are changing but the blame does not belong to any one gender.
Rochelle 97
I agree with this article. And also in my experience, men who say they “love it” when a woman takes charge, asks them out, etc are just confused about how they feel. Perhaps they are starting to feel insecure about rejection so they think the solution is for the woman to come to them. Some also pull away on purpose to “test” women’s interest to see how much she will do to get to them. I’ve noticed this with a few guys… They would start out being the pursuer and then out of the blue pull back. When they did that, I would not contact them. But eventually I hear from them and they’d be upset if they didn’t hear from me because I don’t initiate contact while they are in withdrawal mode! I’m like well I really enjoyed hearing from you and tell them I’m confused about the whole thing. then they express some sort of fear that I might think they are coming on too strong and that was why they didn’t contact me. So odd.
Whatever the reason is, most men who think women should be doing “equal pursuing” subconsciously are not attracted to women who do this. Whenever I tried to initiate anything in the early stages of dating, even when a guy would flat out ask me to contact him and I’d follow through, it never worked out in my favor, especially when I did more than the guy. They’d either disappear or just saw me as a “friend”. And that is what I used to do A LOT. The guy would act interested if I initiated, maybe thinking there was a chance we’d get physical or he just was bored, but then he’d start to pull away. I got much more positive returns when I started being more receptive and just responding to whatever men did. It also made me feel more confident as a woman. Giving him the space to come to you is the most effective way.
Clare 98
Yes, Tom10 and RW.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Fiona 99
Barry, my take on the guy that chose my friend is that these things happen. He actually spoke to me earlier in the evening to say that he liked us both and wasn’t sure which of us he would be better for. I told him if he liked my friend he should go for her. I did that because I didn’t see a future with a man who wasn’t sure about me. I was a bit hurt but I’ll live.
As for being open to men who want me that is a two way street. I am open to men who want me provided that I want them too. If I don’t find a man like that so be it. I don’t have an obligation to date someone unless I feel I have something to offer them and vice versa.
Barry 100
RW
I admit that I am promoting a one sided position, which would normally be untenable.
I am forced to do so by those awkward things called facts.
Men are attracted to the same type of women they always have been attracted to. Women’s expectations of men have changed.
If dating relations have changed for the worse as a result, it can only be due to the gender that changed their expectations – women. That is logic.
“If men are unable to provide what the women are looking for, it’s a two-sided problem, wouldn’t you say”
True, both sexes must find a way to deal with the problem. Doesn’t change the fact that the problem was created only by women.
”….and men need to improve the offering”
Well women’s comments throughout this blog seem to reiterate this demand. But a demand is usually followed by a threat ” … or else”
Or else you will reject us. That is indeed what you are doing.
OK, like it or not, the ball has been thrown into men’s court.
Are the demands reasonable ? Are they achievable ?
Look at what women are asking for. Read this blog ! “We want men with significantly higher than average income because ….”
Right. You want the average man to have above average income. Mmm, and the maths on that work how ?
“No, its Ok” you say. “We are not interested in average men anyway – we deserve better than average because …”.
So demands are not achievable for most men.
Exceptions to the rule are just that.
Frimmel 101
Would it be easier to hear if it came from a woman?
http://www.owningyourshit.blogspot.in/search/label/marriage
Robyn 102
re: “The number of single men living alone between the ages of 45 and 64 has nearly doubled since 1995″….
If the UK is anything like the US – based on my personal experience – there are a lot of men in this age group who don’t want to re-marry or even live with some one (for a variety of reasons). They are choosing to remain “single” and live alone.
In the 21st century men don’t have to get married or form a monogamous partnership in order to get laid (unlike 50 years ago), so many of them don’t marry (or delay marriage).
This is one significant reason for there being a lot more men that are in the “single and live alone” category than 20 years ago.
FYI: Rutgers University did a big study on all of this that was published about 2 years ago.
Joe 103
Wait, Fiona is upset at a guy for doing what she told him to do?
Liz 104
Its actually the quarter percent. I agree our expectations have increased, rightfully so, based on our opportunities, earning potential and education level. Also, for me, I have to tell you, while I would be very happy with a man that pursued his education to the level that I have, but choose a profession that was nobel, such a teaching, it just hasn’t worked out for me.
RW 105
LOL Barry, I DON’T say it’s okay. I never have. Neither does my circle of friends or acquaintances. We are all in our late 20s and early 30s and the many are in long term relationships or are married. We are of varied ethnicity and met our spouses/partners in many different ways…through the interweeb, in person, through family, etc, etc. So to me, you and those of your mindset are the exceptions. I realize obviously that my little corner of the world hardly speaks for the masses but that’s just the point. Your opinions are highly subjective and based on a certain subset of the population. You cannot possibly maintain that all women everywhere are the problem and are preventing men from having meaningful, lasting relationships. And yet that’s what you posit. As for those awkward things called facts, you haven’t given me many beyond quotes from articles that need to be interpreted.
@Frimmel
Thanks for the link. Interesting read if a bit long. She makes many good points and I agree with some of them but she also generalizes and provides some one sided views. The basis of her article is “what is wrong with women today”. Point taken. All I am saying is that there is enough material to write a “what is wrong with men today” article. The video was over the top. The article by Heartiste was over the top. It’s all very well to be bitter and believe that the other gender is out to get you but that doesn’t help anyone. I’m really sorry for your bad experiences but I repeat….for each one of your bad experiences there’s a woman out there who has experienced the same.
Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree. Evan’s put up another article…I’m off to read that and offer my two cents
henriette 106
@Barry 100: “Men are attracted to the same type of women they always have been attracted to.”
Well, Evan wrote a post awhile back showing a study comparing what men & women looked for in a spouse many decades ago (I believe it was sometime in the early 50s) and today. While women had different priorities today, so too did men. If I recall correctly, men today care significantly less about home-making skills, shared religious beliefs and character when looking for wives and much, much, much more about looks.
Clare 107
Yeah, I just find myself shaking my head at Barry and Frimmel.
I have a 33 year old guy friend who claims that he would love to be settled down, but always goes for wild and unstable 18 – 22 year-olds and then is baffled that it doesn’t work out. I know MANY guys like that.
It’s not that you are incorrect that women sometimes have unrealistic expectations. Many of them are chasing the rich, handsome, well-educated bad boys. But many men are also chasing young, hot, totally unsuitable women. Have a read through Evan’s blog again and count the number of stories you come across about men like this. it probably runs into the dozens or hundreds, just on this blog alone.
As I say, it’s not that you are necessarily incorrect that women could adjust their expectations. They could. It’s that you *blame* them for the “breakdown of gender relations” to the exclusion of all else. It’s ridiculous, and not supported at all by the “facts”.
KO 108
OK, Who is rejecting whom here?
Perhaps dating should be defined. If I, as a new middle-aged divorcee (who has no problem attracting younger/same age/older men), but has no interest in “dating”am not interested in games, ploys or otherwise self-defeating practices, don’t pony up to a guy- or let’s say, think the guy is sincere in friendship opportunity or GOD FORBID, is attracted- am I, per se, supposed to “manage” the cues? (excuse the run-on sentence).
It seems to me that women are receptive and are trying to clue men in but they get skittish, gun-shy, THINK women only want one thing- a relationship.
What if, let’s just suppose, that a woman actually is interested in a man and wants to hang out (whatever) because she actually has commonality and wants to share- with or without expectations. Let’s also suppose that “said” woman is interested in you as a man but not in a romantic way. Or perhaps, she is attracted to you as she would be any potential person/friend- but becuase she is not physically attracted, a man rejects all efforts. Or here’s another scenario- a woman meets a man and they are developing what seems to be a comraderie/frienship and she expressed a newfound desire? How does that fir into the equation?
Does being intersted or dating equate with wanting a romantic or intimate relationship? NOT FOR ME!! I do not want to be pursued and I certainly hope/pray that if a man thought that was what I wanted then he would be set straight with my honesty and candor. Likewise, if I was getting to know a man and truly had a rapport, I would certainly hope that he could take it in the same light- “Here’s a bright, fun, passionate woman who is seeking me out.”
This whole mirroring thing- a setback, a game in my mind. If I meet a potential friend- whether male or female- it’s either a GO or a NO-GO. If it develops into romance or consensual sex without strings or, again GOD FORBID, a romance, then jackpot. You have a new loyal friend. If you have to play games with timing and who communicates when and who is the “prize” or who is the “stricken” then 86- jettison. after all, if you have a high- maintenance friend that rags yet never returns your calls, what do you do? 86.
It is indeed the 21st century. If some women want to be pursued, pursue them. If some women want to have open dialogue and communication, reciprocate. Men have to follow cues as aptly as women. I, for one, have no time for games, mirroring, misogyny, ambiguity, disappearance. If it’s a one night stand, there are no illusions.
“I yam what I am”- Popeye
Does every date have to lead to a longterm relationship or marriage? What if you just want companionship (and sex) with some longevity? This whole thread started about a woman who pondered if she should ask a man out and digressed to why women are so difficult. Really? Men are the ones that think women have unrealistic expectations, yet we know EXACTLY who you are. And we still heteroseuxally minded- irrefutably- want you. So suck it up. And be gentlemen- enough with the disappearing, never-call-again scared BS. It’s called common courtesy.
KO 109
And please excuse the typos- was on a roll………I know how to spell.
Helen 110
Been married happily over 14 years now. I approached hub first, not just the first time, but the first two times.
nathan and Teddie brought up a good point earlier that got lost in the shuffle. It’s this: most relationships don’t end up successfully, regardless of whether the man or the woman approached first. There’s no evidence that the majority of successful relationships for our modern era - which I define as long-lasting, happy, and healthy – are ones in which the man pursued.
I object to the notion that women shouldn’t pursue men because it makes some men uncomfortable. (short of stalking, of course; no one should stalk) A lot of things about dating and relationships are uncomfortable, for both men and women, even after we get married. If you care about the other person, you will deal with those discomforts. If a man is turned off by a woman who approaches, then he wasn’t into her in the first place. If she’d done nothing, he still wouldn’t have been into her.
We might believe that relationships are less successful if the woman pursues because of a psychological effect called the availability heuristic. Because it’s rarer for women to pursue, we notice when they do, and we notice when those relationships fail. We don’t pay as much attention when the man does the pursuing and the relationship eventually fails, because we think it’s “normal.” In fact, it’s normal that most relationships fail, regardless of who did the asking.
To thine own self be true.
KO 111
Amen, sister. 14 year marriage, 18 years total just ended. And I’m supposed to be pursued? Thinking not……Nor do I intend to pursue- but show my attraction? Well, hell yeah!! If I happen to stumble upon because all I want right now is sincerity from either gender- friendship mostly- but you have to spend some time to develop. And I think- you either like somebody or not- first impression. This mirroring/disappearing act thing as a “response” or “tactic” to achieve or prove a point……..makes no sense to me. Can’t buy in. So if I’m a lonely old spinster sitting on a shelf like a dusty unclaimed trophy, so be it. I will survive.
And when I mention friendship in regards to both genders- that’s what I mean. I love men- strange creatures that they are. And women as my sisters- high maintenance as we may seem. But it is what it is. We either click or not. And sometimes the click becomes a clack. So why waste an opportunity to get to know someone? You might get lucky and get a life long relationship. Whether friendship or lover or companion or all of the above. Yes, ma’am. To thine own self be true indeed.
Karmic Equation 112
@KO and @Helen
I think it was in Sherry Argov’s book, Why Men Love Bitches, where she states (paraphrased) “Women fall in love in a man’s presence and men fall in love in a woman’s absence” and “Men equate ‘longing’ with love.”
If you’re always in a man’s presence, you’re not giving him the chance to miss you. And him missing you is one of the keys to his falling in love with you.
Mirroring his interest in you gives him that opportunity to miss you and also for you to assess his interest. If he contacts you, he likes you. If he doesn’t, it means he doesn’t. So NOT contacing a man *you are interested in* is important for several reasons:
1) Because if you contact him, you’re not “absent”
2) Your unsolicited contact, whether by text, email, or phone, is perceived in a man’s lizard brain as chasing him…most men don’t like being chased. The ones who don’t mind may lack the confidence you seek in a mate.
3) And most importantly, IMO, mirroring challenges a man. Men are used to interested women “chasing” them. So if you he knows you are interested but you’re not chasing him, he wants to know why, he starts wondering about you and thinking about what you’re doing when you’re not with him…and this wondering helps him miss you…as well as motivates him to take actions to try to turn you into the chaser he’s used to interested women being…
My mirroring (and absences/disappearing early in my relationship) won me a devoted boyfriend (a reformed player who was very used to women chasing him) who recently asked me to marry him…I had to deflect (I didn’t outright say no, but I certainly didn’t say yes) as while I’ve come to love him, I’m not sure marrying him is such a good idea for me.
I don’t consider myself as having played any games to get to this point in our relationship. But I do feel strongly that his falling in love with me and asking me to marry him would never have come to pass if I pursued him and was constantly in his presence. I gave him opportunities to miss me and long for me and in so doing, he put me in a different category than all those other man-chasing girls in his life at the time. Of course, being unique in a man’s eyes is not enough to obtain a commitment from him–you actually have to BE special for him to want to commit to–easy to get along with, feminine, sweet, sexy, and above all confident and secure. The “tactics” only get you so far. You have to BE worth committing to for a man to actually commit to you.
If you want to attract a tiger, scenting the trail with the smell of carrots is not effective. If you want a relationship with a man, you need to know what HE wants from a woman, not what YOU want to give him as a woman. What makes YOU feel good as a woman doesn’t necessarily make HIM feel good as a man. I highly recommend reading Evan’s book and also Sherry Argov’s book to help clarify this difference.
Kathleen 113
Great well written summary Karmic Equation 112!.
I love Argovs book and Evans book too and now have greater clarity than I ever have. I was married most of my adult life and the last 4 years of dating has been quite an education. I just wished I had known these concepts earlier but better late than never.
I like your point about the guys who don’t mind being chased being lacking in confidence. I prefer a masculine energy confident guy so these strategies are now working well for me.
I just had the conversation with a pursuer who wants to sleep with me that I prefer being in an exclusive relationship so Ill see how that plays out (thanks again Evan for that video that made that conversation simple!)
Karmic Equation 114
Thanks, Kathleen. You might want to read the archives on manslations.com. It’s a lighthearted, yet useful, way of looking at how woman can’t see the forest for the trees when it comes to men and relationships.
I bought the book, but the book is based mostly on his archives. His book is a condensed version of his website, in less rambly form and with more commentary. His “golden rule” and “two questions” and how to apply them are the key takeaways. And you should be able to get them from just reading the archives.
Good luck with your new potential guy…
Rebecca 115
Evan, thank you. I’m 44 years old and have been single on and off since my divorce in 2008. I wish I had found your advice about mirroring a long time ago. I’m currently (sort of) dating someone for 2 months, and I did everything wrong. It’s doubtful that this relationship will be salvaged, but the amazing thing is, I’m not sad about that, I’m actually LOOKING FORWARD to dating for the first time in a long time. I can’t wait to try out the mirroring technique with men I meet. I think it’s going to be a total game changer for me. THANK YOU!
Susan61 116
It’s been a week since date #4 with a man I met online. He is 5.5 years younger than I am. We met just over a month ago and all four dates for me, at least, were fun and exciting. We really did seem to hit it off. He emailed me the night after our last date which was a week ago (Saturday night). His email on Sunday night was very brief and just said he was “tired” but we had joked via email about being tired after our other dates. He did not say “but it was worth it…” or “but it was a lot of fun …” which he had said in prior emails. We did not have sex but we did fool around. There is definite “chemistry” and I realize that is not necessarily a good thing (chuckling at the absurdity of that statement).
He left something here, something he doesn’t necessarily need or could easily replace and yesterday I was very tempted to send him an email to let him know. In the spirit of “mirroring” on Monday I sent a very brief response to his very brief email. I mirrored the tone of his email which to me, was not that good. No response, and here it is a week later. Yesterday I was very tempted to send another funny and clever email (we have had pretty awesome email banter) about this item but I talked to a friend who told me to give it another day and sleep on it. He remains active on the dating site we met on.
After reading Rochelle’s comment #97, i realize he may be doing this pulling back thing as a test. Of course, this is all conjecture but it feels like a game of chicken – who will give in first. I’m sure he knows I’m attracted to him and things may have gotten a little too intense and passionate too soon (I”m coming out of a four year drought…)
I read Nathan’s and Julia’s comments as well. I do think at this point, only four dates, I should still be mirroring. If he is pulling back to test me, it seems like a power play. I do worry that my short email was not encouraging to him but we had just had a fabulous date that ended in a passionate make out session. So he knows I like him. His “Tired…” email was frankly not that encouraging to me either
While I wish I could just be a full human being and do what I do with any other person who left an item at my place, (in retrospect I should have included it in my email response but I forgot) his seeming fade-away and lack of response to MY email response is giving me pause and it appears he is looking for better options online. He has kids and 50% custody so I know that keeps him busy but he could have easily sent a text or an email to check in and he has NOT. I’m sad about it as I did have some hopes for this guy. It appears the dates were more fun for ME.
So I’m not going to pursue this man after four dates. When in doubt, do nothing. I’m not sure how to respond if I do eventually hear from him.
Nicole 117
@Susan61, it sounds like this guy has totally moved on. Don’t do mental back flips to convince yourself that he is testing you or is too busy to call. While four dates is too early to be in love with anyone (for you or him), I think that a guy who still wanted to keep you as an option would have been in touch by now. And guys who don’t want to risk a woman getting away won’t keep them wondering.
Clearly if he calls again you can decide how to proceed but I think that if you have anyone else in the queue, you are doing yourself a disservice not to move on.
Susan61 118
Thank you, Nicole. Admittedly I was hoping for a different response. Even a friend’s boyfriend convinced me tonight he is going to call eventually but I think I know better. Thanks again…..
Susan61 119
Actually, I believe we had some miscommunication and he may have taken something I wrote as a joke in an email reply to him the wrong way. I decided to email him today about the item he left at my house and I was amazed to learn I was right. We cleared it up so now we have a date (and he asked me, I did not initiate). This will be date #5. This thing could certainly could still go either way, but I’m trying to enjoy the dates as they occur, just have fun with him and not project so much into the future.
Phoenix 120
First, I wanted to say EMK – I love your blog and enjoy reading and re-reading the various posts. However, one thing has always been a stumbling block for me… the notion of never initiating early contact… For the past year, I’ve heard so many online men (> 50) tell me that I seem uninterested because I’ve been practicing the mirroring tool. So that is why I truly appreciate the variety of responses to the OP.
Jenna, Nathan, Teddie, Clare, Frimmel, Soul, and Helen – thank you for adding diverse opinions to this topic! I think that each of your responses highlight the fact that there is NO answer &/or rule that will apply to each and every situation. So mirroring is a great tool but that doesn’t guarantee a man will decide to invest in a relationship.
I am finding that when I am confident and focused upon loving myself (FIRST), then all dating decisions that I make – have better results…
I know that we all wish that love, dating, marriage, life — would all fit into a simple algorithm but alas it does not. We will have to take risks. The best we can do is to experience life, learn from mistakes, and commit to loving ourselves fully.
Evan Marc Katz 121
@Phoenix: “First, I wanted to say EMK – I love your blog and enjoy reading and re-reading the various posts. However, one thing has always been a stumbling block for me… the notion of never initiating early contact… For the past year, I’ve heard so many online men (> 50) tell me that I seem uninterested because I’ve been practicing the mirroring tool. So that is why I truly appreciate the variety of responses to the OP.”
Phoenix, thanks for the kind words. Sorry that you haven’t yet purchased my products to fully understand what I’m advocating. I 100% recommend women writing to men first online and then letting the men take the lead. Mirroring works like a charm to reveal if a man is truly interested in making an effort for you. Please don’t conflate what I recommend offline with what I recommend online. And if you want a deeper understanding, read Why He Disappeared for more on mirroring and Finding the One Online for more about writing confident, flirtatious first emails to men.