Should I Choose My Old Flame Over My Safe Boyfriend?
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Evan, I’ve been involved with Ken for two years. I met him through friends. He isn’t exactly who I envisioned and we’ve had some tough challenges along the way. I think he’s handsome, and I know he’s ethical, devoted and loves me totally. I love him too but my physical attraction to him has never been strong.
I took a break from him when my Mom died and went back to my hometown. I was praying to my Mom and God to help me to know the way. And then standing at the foot of the lake I met Jim from my High School. It was instant attraction for both of us. We have much in common and there is a sense of joy I’ve not known before. Here’s the catch. Jim had a long affair while he was married which he told me without prompting.
I got scared and Ken kept working to win me back. What I have with Ken is very good. He’s a great friend, I like him and we have things in common too. But I still think of Jim and I know he thinks of me.
I don’t want to throw something away with Ken and have regret. Jim feels we’re meant for each other and his family and friends do too. How do I come to what’s best for everyone?
I would love your insight very much. It’s been thrilling to see your success.
Warm Regards,
Patty
Dear Patty,
My heart breaks for you, darling.
You lost your Mom and your head is reeling.
You’re praying to God for dating advice.
You’re thinking of giving up your ethical devoted boyfriend for a man who is a proven cheater.
And if that wasn’t enough, you’re asking to “come to what’s best for everyone.”
The only person who decides what’s best for you is YOU. Got it?
Really, you’re making this way harder on yourself than you have to.
Let’s work backwards.
His family and friends think it’s best if you’re with High School Cheater Jim. Fuck them. They don’t have a vote.
Neither does High School Cheater Jim or Devoted Ken. They want what’s best for them, not what’s best for you.
The only person who decides what’s best for you is YOU. Got it?
Everyone else’s opinions are irrelevant. Yes, including my own.
But that’s not gonna stop me, of course.
Now, let’s understand that there are exceptions to every rule and aphorism out there. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t truth to be found in: “When someone shows you who he is, believe him.” And “One in the hand is worth two in the bush.”
Jim has shown you who he is. He’s an admitted cheater and borderline homewrecker who is trying to leverage the weight of his family and friends to convince you to leave your relationship.
You want to willfully ignore all this because you feel more attraction towards him.
Next…
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46 Comments »Filed Under Chemistry
Fawn 1
This is very similar to something I went through. I was having a relationship with my “high school” boyfriend – also an admitted cheater. He ended up going back to his ex-girl friend after we dated for almost a years when she decided she wanted him back (after he cheated on her). He also admittedly cheated on his wife for many years. A year later I meet my husband. He is sweet, giving, we have the same values and interests. He treats me like a princess. We date for 2 1/2 years and then get engaged. When ex high school boyfriend finds out he decides he doesn’t want to be with ex girlfriend anymore and wants me back. Ex high school boyfriend and I always had very good chemistry and for a split second I wondered if I was making a mistake with current husband – but that was as long as it lasted – a split second. I realized very quickly that my boyfriend (now my husband) was the one I should stick with. It was definitely the right choice. I knew that what I had with ex-boyfriend was all chemical based. He had a way of making anyone feel really good. But you know, I soon realized it may not last long and he had a history of cheating so I made the best decision I could for me. It was the right decision.
Julia 2
solid advice. Its normal to seek greener pastures when we are faced with potentially spending the rest of our lives with someone, hopefully sense will prevail over lust.
Hope 3
Evan, you hit the ball out of the park with this post. Excellent post. I would have given the exact same advice. I honestly believe that to follow attraction in this case will lead the disaster. You bring up a really valid point when you mention this guy is leveraging his family and friends to get the woman to leave her relationship. In all honesty, I don’t think I could be with a guy if he wanted me to leave a perfectly healthy relationship for the sake of attraction, which is also going to eventually fade just as it has with Guy A. And like Evan said, who is to say this Guy B won’t find a woman he’s more attracted to, especially since he has a history of cheating and is also trying to break up this woman’s relationship. If somebody puts such a high empahsis on attraction they are always going to be disappointed. You will always find someone else you’re more attracted to. But the grass isn’t always greener on the other side of the fence. I have watched plenty of folks I have known throughout the years who followed attraction and its whims, and not only did they end up hurting a lot of people, but ended up hurting themselves too.
And let’s face it, even if you find the most perfect partner for you there will come a point in your relationship with him that you won’t feel that same attraction that you did in the beginning. It’s not just a matter of “if”, it’s “when.” It’s part of being in a long term relationship. I’m sure this “husband material” guy can name things that he doesn’t find so attractive about this woman too. Relationships are hard work. And if someone really wants that awesome relationship they need to be willing to keep up the hard work, even when they don’t feel like it. Otherwise you will always be jumping ship for someone else and wondering why you’re alone.
nathan 4
I’m not convinced that playing it safe is a good strategy here. Nor is hyper risk taking. The way I see it, from how she writes about her boyfriend and the circumstances around the high school flame, neither are excellent options. We don’t know the nature of the problems that have happened historically with the boyfriend, but the OP’s comments about him are strained. She’s trying to show his good points, but the way she talks about him doesn’t sound like a woman who’s interested enough in him for the long haul. Chasing the old flame is simply flipping to the opposite side of the coin. She’s tossing worries about having to muster enough interest for a man who may not have the skills to maintain anything long term. It’s a common pattern. Leaving stable, but ultimately lacking relationships for what end up being extended flings filled with passion, followed by messy break ups when reality returns.
At the end of the day, Patty needs to decide if she really can envision a life with the boyfriend, or if she’s just keeping him around because he sounds good on paper. To me, that relationship is the lynchpin. Decide now to truly stick it out, or to leave on good terms. The other guy can wait.
Angie 5
Evan, I think there are a lot of women willing to “waste time” on someone for two years, depending on their age. If the OP is 27, sure. Especially with the attraction thing. (I wouldn’t assume that because someone is divorced, they necessarily had a long marriage or are older. My cousin was a 27-year-old divorce, I graduated high school with a girl who has been divorced twice and has a baby with a third guy, and we are 30).
OP, Evan is right. You are the only one who should make this call.
You know, at the end of the day, this attraction to Jim may just really be an wake-up call that you should be evaluating your role in both relationships. Maybe you should sort of meditate on “What is Jim’s purpose in my life? What is he here to show me?” as opposed to “Who do I pick?” Also, Jim’s determination that you are “meant to be” is a bit dramatic.
I don’t think “Once a cheater, always a cheater,” but I do think everything is circumstantial and the fact that he had a LONG, ongoing affair while married is the bigger tip-off. Post-divorcees as well as people in grief, such as your self, are emotionally wide open. You may very well be the passionate rebound that Jim was seeking.
Either way, a co-worker of mine is taking a human sexuality class and told me about the different “Love Styles”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_styles
I think this is relevant to this letter, and also to many people who read this blog, because we may very well be “Eros” (passionate/romantic) but it feels like we are being forced to be “Pragma” (driven by the head/marriage as a business transaction). I honestly think that attraction is necessary and if there is NO physical chemistry at all, you are always going to be longing for that. Maybe I’m over-reading into this, but a lifetime of bad sex isn’t something I’d want to sign up for. But a lifetime of deep passion isn’t totally necessary either. I kind of think the best option is (c) an individual who you are attracted to, that is also kind and devoted. If you AREN’T attracted to Ken, not one bit, it is a chore to have sex with him instead of something you look forward to, you aren’t doing yourself any favors by lying to yourself.
Maya 6
Great advice, but somehow agree with Nathan’s comment. Just seems like none of the guys would be IT. That’s just how it seems from afar.
Good luck to the OP. Hope she finds the right way for her.
Angie 7
PS One more thing I’ve learned regarding regret:
Patience is also a virtue. Because you walked away, and a few days later, a new option popped in, that doesn’t make it THE other option. It makes it AN other option. Rarely is the next thing we encounter, the best option. (“Rebound” is a well-known thing for a reason).
You really haven’t, at the core, decided upon what it is you need in a relationship. If you did, you could communicate it to Ken or would have left him after a couple months knowing it is “going nowhere”. I’ve met wonderful Ken types who I felt zero attraction to. We lasted a month or so, because I didn’t enjoy kissing them. If you ever had physical chemistry with Ken, maybe you can find that, but it isn’t looking that way.
Jenna 8
I’m not sure she should be with either guy. Though you can’t maintain the initial feeling about a guy at the same level years in, you should still feel excited about your guy and feel lucky to have him if he’s a marriage prospect.
Allison 9
I agree with Nathan– she doesn’t sound thrilled enough about Ken, and meeting Jim just highlights what’s missing for her in the relationship. Patty, first forget about Jim and evaluate your relationship with Ken. Stay with him or leave him independent of Jim. You don’t have to stay with him just because he loves you and has objectively good qualities– stay with him if you love him and can see a future with him (don’t end up like the OP from a few weeks ago who ignored the issues and ended up in a bad marriage!). Then, if you leave, you can think about Jim, who at this point seems like hardly more than a fantasy.
helene 10
I agree- the fact that the old flame is distracting her from her 2 year relationship doesn’t mean the high school guy is right for her, but it does mean that Ken may NOT be right for her. If she’s so easily distracted, how much in love with Ken can she really be? 2 years is not THAT long to have been with someone for passion to fade – a lot of couples are still super-loved-up at that point. The only important decision here is whether she wants to be with Ken or not – Jim is an irrelevance. She needs to take a decision about Ken WITHOUT assuming Jim is going to be there if she leaves. he may be – he may not be. Each of these things is a separate decision.
Amy 11
The fact that Patty says “my physical attraction to him has never been strong”. is a huge red flag. Attraction is not the only thing between people but it is important and is the basis/foundation for many other things that follow in any relationship, like mental and emotional attraction. I don’t think high school cheater Jim is the right option but her current boyfriend might not be either. Five years into a marriage with him and she could be the one having an affair. Think about it Evan, and other readers out there, what if your significant other admitted to you that their physical attraction to you had never been strong. OUCH! That would be a pretty big blow.
Hope 12
Maybe neither guy is it But that brings up another good question. What is she really seeking in a relationship? I ask this because the OP said with the high school boyfriend she felt joy for the first time. I think some good soul searching might be in order because if you’re looking for another person to be your source of happiness you will always end up disappointed with others. Maybe neither guy is right for her. But are the guys the true issue, or is something else going on within the OP that she needs to sort for herself before trying to get into another relationship? If you can’t feel joy and excitment on your own then you’ll constantly searching for it with someone else, and the search will never end.
Joe 13
Sounds to me like her being with Ken was basically a bit of “I’ll bide my time with him until someone better comes along”, from the get-go, if she wasn’t really that attracted to him from the start.
Sunflower 14
I love it when Evan drops the “f” bomb!
Evan Marc Katz 15
All the folks who see this as a sign to dump the devoted boyfriend, Ken, please read this latest New York Times article, which reiterates everything that I’ve ever said here.
Eventually, all love turns into companionship. It takes a smart and strong couple to keep things interesting when you have, by nature, a stable and predictable life together. The problems are that: most couples are not smart and strong. They don’t understand that it’s virtually impossible to be EXCITED by someone after 2 years. It’s appreciation. It’s comfort. It’s friendship. It’s laughter. And yes, it can be great sex, too, but, as always, that’s an activity that a couple needs to communicate about. Someone can become better in bed if it means pleasing his wife sexually and rejuvenating a marriage. It’s a much more achievable goal than turning a cheater into a loyal man.
So when I hear the OP say only this, “I think he’s handsome, and I know he’s ethical, devoted and loves me totally. I love him too but my physical attraction to him has never been strong,” and your first conclusion is that she should DUMP this man? You’re only indicating that you think that it would be a better bet for her to try to find another handsome, ethical, loving, devoted boyfriend who has just a little more OOMPH. Sorry, my friends, but that’s bad advice.
And if you don’t believe your happily married dating coach, perhaps you can believe all the scientists who have informed my opinion: marriage isn’t a passionfest. You don’t get excited about your “new” car after five years and you’re not gonna get excited by your spouse in five years, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have an amazing marriage with a good sex life if you work at communicating and keeping things lively.
Paula 16
Patty, you sound like you are ‘chasing a feeling’ with the old school sweetheard Jim. Cheaters will be cheaters and liars will be liars. Jim has already admitted to cheating and one can almost guarantee it won’t be the last with guys who do this sort of thing. You know leopards don’t change their spots and it’s a big red flag waving there so step back and have a really good think about what is really happening here.
He’s already told he who he is – a cheater – so listen up.
You won’t be the exception to his rule once ‘that feeling’ has worn off and life gets real, the kids are screaming, bills have to be paid and you’re cleaning the toilet yet again. Thats what real life is Patty but if you have a good guy who sticks by you, loves you and supports you without bailing out into some other womans bed when real life hits you’ve got a good man.
Angie 17
@ Evan 15
I do agree with your point. But there is also a difference between basic attraction and passion/lust etc. It’s not about a “little more OOMPH”, it’s about actually wanting any sort of intimate interaction with that person (and maybe the OP is young or inexperienced, and hasn’t developed that physical side of herself fully, and meeting Jim made her realize this).
At the end of the day, if you aren’t attracted to someone but they are loyal, devoted, caring and objectively good-looking, they are your friend and that’s all. I don’t know how the OP is supposed to find attraction if it never existed. Lack of attraction isn’t some random “flaw” like “He listens to bad music”… Lack of attraction is like telling a gay man to marry a woman (in the most extreme of circumstances). Sure, he can be happy and meet all his goals for a marriage, but over the course of a lifetime, if you don’t want to have sex with someone it is entirely different from the passion has died out, etc.
But only the OP knows which is the true case.
marymary 18
I agree with evan at 15.
Intense physical attraction is a trick of nature, memory, pheromones, DNA. It tells you nothing about whether the person is good prospect for a relationship. It doesn’t even mean the sex will be that great because when you stop marvelling over the attraction you might even realise that the sex is just… okay, if that.
by all means admire the view and feel the butterflies but sometimes you just gotta step away from the light.
i do find my boyfriend physically attractive but it,s mellow and comfortable, not fireworks. he finds me attractive but it doesnt seem to be the most important thing to him. We just get on and enjoy each other,s company.
I guess I have the dubious advantage of having experienced the fireworks and saw it all turn to garbage. I know it means nothing.
For the OP, i know the new guy isn,t right and I,m not sure about the current one either. It sounds too rocky.
Some other Steve 19
I think Evan is being generous to Jim by suggesting that he’ll drop only to a 6.
maria 20
This is such an excellent post! I love you when Evan is real and cusses!
Also, what I have noticed is when a woman moves on and finds a new man, especially a FIANCE, the ex comes running back EVEN WHEN HE REALLY DOESNT EVEN WANT HER. He is being competitive.
I say you WILL regret it if you leave.
Dagaz 21
Frankly speaking, if OP trying to choose between two men – she doesn’t love either of them. And none of them is “right” for her, alas.
If she would love, the question simply wouldn’t appear in her head at all.
Dina 22
Evan, if you weren’t Jewish, I would swear you were the patron saint of dating. Thank you for telling us girls like it really is. You’re like the big brother I never had. This is great advice! Thanks.
starthrower68 23
If you don’t believe Evan, John Grey (Venus vs. Mars) backs him up. He advises a woman who feels that intense physical chemistry immediately to run the other way because she’s idealizing the guy. Seems to me that is exactly what’s happening here, having done it more times than I care to admit. We live in a culture where we hardly know what “normal” is; we think excess is the norm so it should come as no surprise that we mistake that intense, heady rush for love. It lacks depth, however. Any of the reading I have done validates what Evan says here. I am also a fan of Cloud & Townsend’s books “Boundaries in Dating” and “How To Find A Date Worth Keeping”.
Denise 24
#17 & #4, I agree with both your posts. There are three things that must be in every relationship, or the relationship will suffer. Physical/sexual attraction (which is not the act of sex, and it isn’t lust), friendship, commitment/shared values & beliefs. Rationalizing isn’t very romantic or lasting…
Gina 25
I think that the OP should send Ken over to me. I am looking for guy like him. I don’t need fireworks a.k.a., “The Big Bang.” I was in a relationship in which I was the female version of Ken. When I found out that the guy whom I had been dating for 14 months felt more passionately about an ex who dumped him, and had secretly been talking to her behind my back, I walked away. He admitted that he was chasing a feeling, and when he could not get back with the ex- girlfriend, he ended up marrying someone else after knowing her for only 10 months. I wish the OP good luck with whatever decision she makes.
Jane 26
I made the wrong choice once, and I’ve regretted it every single day since. I threw away my stable, loving, boring, not-so-sexy relationship for a cheating, emotionally abusive guy (who was actually named Jim) because I wanted to feel passion again. I craved it. I became obsessed with it. What I should have done instead was to ask my boyfriend of many years–the best man I’ve ever met–to seek counseling with me. To unearth what connection had come unplugged in our relationship that made sex seem so disconnected. If I’d done that, I’d never have heard of Evan Marc Katz, and I’d have the life that I want, the husband that I want, the kids that I want. Please don’t do it, honey. Instead, turn to Ken and dig deeper. I have a hunch it’ll be worth it. And if it isn’t, then go forth and find someone who’s strong and honorable enough to not solve his relationship problems with cheating.
Androgynous 27
Evan at #15. Yes, what you say is absolutely correct. However, it seems to me that the issue here is getting Patty to realise it. Processing this information at an intellectual level is one thing, actually feeling the pain of not having someone, or losing someone who provides the warmth, comforts and care of a strong, enduring relationship is another.
She should just take a break from men for a while – especially with her mother gone her mind may be all muddled. Using her grief over her lost mother may be the perfect excuse to take a break from Ken (and Jim). If she finds she misses Ken terribly after a while, then she has answered her own question. On the other hand, if she feels free and liberated, that’s an indication that Ken is not right for her, and never was.
Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Knowing things at an intellectual level does not always inform me about the correct choices they need to make for themselves. Sometimes the Pattys of this world need to lose their Kens and get used and abused by the Jims in order to truly truly appreciate the value of the kind of relationship Evan talks about.
Androgynous 28
……Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Knowing things at an intellectual level does not always inform me about the correct choices they need to make for themselves.
Sorry I meant to say “does not always inform them about the correct choices they need to make for themselves
Joe 29
IMO there’s a huge difference between “impossible to be excited by someone after 2 years” and “my physical attraction to him has never been strong.” The former implies that there was an initial thrill that’s faded (to whatever degree); the latter suggests there never was a thrill to begin with.
Hope 30
Gina (comment #25) I have to agree with yu in a big way. I was thinking the same thing when I read this blog post. Why doesn’t the OP send Ken my way. There are plenty of women out there who are looking for the stable, loyal, kind guy. Passion is great. But I don’t expect firworks to be forever. I still stand by what I said that the OP needs to look within herself and figure out why she is relying on a man to be her source of joy and excitment. Until you figure out how to be happy with yourself you’re never going to be happy in a relationship. You’ll always be moving from one relationship to another. Nobody else has the power, time, or energy to constantly sustain and be responsible for someone else’s sense of worth, joy, and excitment.
Like Gina (comment #25) I was also a female version of Ken and had a guy leave me for “Miss Exciting.” But Miss Exciting also turned out to have a whole ton of issues, lied about being divorced, used sex as a weapon, and when she didn’t get what she wanted she would resort to blackmail and harrassment. She also ended up being a major Golddigger and was constantly cheating on him. And here was my ex, wondering why Miss Exciting suddenly changed from loving and exciting to scary and crazy. She didn’t change, she just let her real self out. And there were tons of red flag warnings in the beginning that he failed to see because he was so caught up in lust. Now my ex has no one. He threw his relationship with me out. Miss Exciting dumped him as soon as he stopped giving her money and she found someone with more money than him. And now his family doesn’t trust him because of what Miss Exciting put them through. There’s a very high price to be paid if all you seek is excitment and passion. And people think it won’t happen to them. It can.
Karl R 31
Patty said: (original post)
“How do I come to what’s best for everyone?”
You sound like a people-pleaser. It’s more reasonable to assume that there is no solution that’s best for everyone. Find the solution that’s best for you in the long run.
Patty said: (original post)
“we’ve had some tough challenges along the way.”
“I took a break from him when my Mom died and went back to my hometown.”
“I was praying to my Mom and God to help me to know the way.”
I’m not sure what “tough challenges” involve (since it’s possible that it might include some behavior I’d consider unacceptable). But it sounds like you were contemplating dumping Ken even when Jim wasn’t in the picture.
Why?
I don’t think it’s healthy/sane to look at this as a choice between Ken and Jim (because Jim seems like an overwhelmingly poor choice … unless you want to live out the lyrics of a country-western song). Let’s go back to the original question you were asking God and your mother about: should you keep or dump Ken.
Either there’s something wrong with Ken, or there’s something wrong with the relationship between you two, or there’s something wrong with the expectations you have toward Ken and your relationship. Based on what you said so far, it sounds like the problem is in your expectations (which means it’s going to come back to haunt you in all of your relationships until you address it), but it’s possible there’s a problem with the relationship that you just haven’t mentioned.
Jim’s a distraction. Find the problem; then maybe the answer will become more obvious.
Jenna 32
What is wrong with dumping the stable loving bf who she’s wishy washy about just bc all ltrs eventually lose passion and become more about comfort? I did so 3 years ago and it was the right decision 100 percent. I was with this nice guy for all the wrong reasons and am happier being single than I would have been with him. However, when you break up with these nice, devoted types, simply acknowledge to yourself that it is generally difficult to find a kind devoted man and that every man will have flaws. Only do so if you feel you’ll be happier single – likely for years– and understand the consequences. Don’t throw away good people recklessly.
nathan 33
Joe #29 makes the point I wanted to add to my comments above. Some readers, and Evan, simply see the good guy on paper, and are comparing him to the obvious risk. Which makes the answer easy. Of course Ken’s the better pick if you have to choose between the two of them.
But seriously, folks, she’s got more than two options here. If she’s never felt that much attraction to Ken, it really makes me wonder about their long term prospects. Notice, there’s not a word about marriage mentioned. Maybe she doesn’t know what she wants long term, but I find it interesting that a woman who seems to enjoy Evan’s writing, and has dated a man for two years, doesn’t mention the “m” word. Perhaps she thinks Ken is thinking about it, and is looking for answers to help her decide how to respond?
I have been on both sides of the coin in situations like this. My first long term girlfriend was basically a Ken. Loyal. Devoted. Caring. But I never felt a strong enough connection with her, and we didn’t have enough in common either. I have zero regrets that it ended, and she’s happily married with children and a great husband. And on the other hand, twice I have been the Ken to women who ultimately didn’t feel enough to stay with me. Despite all my efforts to demonstrate how much I cared. I’m grateful that they chose to be honest with me and end things well before the 2 year mark Patty and Ken have reached. Given the length of time, she’s in a harder place because strong attachments have formed, and it’s difficult to walk away from them even if it’s in every one’s best interest.
Plenty of folks have advocated here for her to stay with Ken. That might be the right decision, but I think the options need to be considered first, especially if she might be deciding to marry Ken in the near future. Having two years of lukewarm attraction is something to take seriously. It could be that she’s let her expectations block her connection with Ken, or it could be that she’s just not that into him, and is getting wooed by how good he looks on paper. And the comfort of having someone around who is devoted to you.
Girl in the Midwest 34
I agree with Nathan at #4. Actually, I think everyone is correct, I just think it’s a judgement call. It really depends on what Patty is looking for and where she is in life. This might sound very practical and calculating, but if Patty is looking to marry and she feels that it is about the right time for her (late 20s or early 30s), and she has been heartbroken and had failed relationships before, she should try to make it work with Ken. Because Ken has the necessary qualities for a husband. And by that I mean making a genuine effort to improve their relationship and attraction. I find that doing new things together definitely gets the dopamine going!
But if Patty is in her early 20s or isn’t looking to marry soon, then I feel like maybe she can afford to throw caution to the wind and maybe she can follow her heart. I’ve made the OP’s mistake of leaving a supportive, kind bf for sb more exciting. But I was 21 years old and by the time I realized my mistake I was 22 and was back to dating in no time. I learned my lesson really well (I did a lot of thinking and reflection as I was recovering), so that next time I would be able to identify a similar feeling (ie grass is greener syndrome). I learned about myself (what I could and couldn’t live with), and learned a lot about men (what kind of guys truly appreciate me). But of course, if Patty doesn’t have the time to “experiment”, she should do the thing that has the most probability of giving her what she wants (ie stay and try to make it work with Ken and NOT have a bad attitude and NOT get resentful of Ken).
Also it depends on what kind of person Patty is. Is she outgoing and meeting guys all the time? Does she love very deeply and thus it takes her a long time to get over someone? Is she very sensitive? Does she crave variety and excitement? I know some people who just wouldn’t be happy in a stable relationship simply b/c they’d get bored. Even if we on this website all say that stability is better, some people might truly be more miserable being bored than having a lot of drama in their lives.
@Androgynous 27: “Sometimes the Pattys of this world need to lose their Kens and get used and abused by the Jims in order to truly truly appreciate the value of the kind of relationship Evan talks about.” I agree with you, sometimes people have to learn the hard lesson for themselves. Sometimes you can’t take any shortcuts to maturity.
Denise 35
“It could be that she’s let her expectations block her connection with Ken, or it could be that she’s just not that into him, and is getting wooed by how good he looks on paper. And the comfort of having someone around who is devoted to you.”
Agreed, or she hasn’t mustered the courage yet to hurt his feelings, doesn’t want to be the ‘bad guy’, hoping she’ll change and/or things will be different or that she’s been too ‘greedy’ to want everything when she clearly has a good man who loves her.
None of those reasons are enough to keep someone around, they are justifcations. Like Nathan said so well, it’s not what’s on paper, it’s how you feel–that’s being human can’t get around that.
Ruby 36
I can’t help but think that Patty’s description of Ken sounds more like a friend. In the first paragraph, she days she loves him, but her physical attraction to him has never been strong, but by the 3rd, she only says she likes him. Big difference after two years, and a bit weak, IMO! He might be a great guy, but that doesn’t mean that he’s the great guy for her.
While I don’t condone cheating, I don’t agree that “once a cheater, always, a cheater.” I also wonder if Patty’s grief isn’t clouding or influencing her judgement. It sounds as if she and her mother were very close. However, I think she should try to resolve her relationship with Ken, one way or another, before moving on to someone new.
Passion is great, but so is comfort. By itself, passion can blind you to a partner’s serious issues, but comfort without passion can be deadly over the long haul. The tricky part is finding a relationship that melds the two.
rhona 37
Great article Evan! You write interesting things and you are very generous in sharing your thoughts.
Helen 38
Reading this letter from Patty, it’s so clear to me (and apparently it’s clear to some others here, too): neither one is the right choice.
Like Karl R, a red flag about Ken for me was when Patty described the issues they had to work out. A red flag that’s not specifically about Ken himself, but about their relationship, is the fact that she seems to have no genuine long-term feelings of caring and connection for him. If you don’t have that after 2 years, you don’t have it, period. It is not a good basis for marriage.
As for Jim: ugh. Patty dear, please don’t believe that because you prayed and then suddenly found him standing at the foot of a lake, that that means ANYTHING.
Michele 39
Best question to ask is: Which guy is being there for her as she is grieving the loss of her mom? Or being truly genuine with looking out for her. Whichever guy that honestly worries about her at this time or tries to make sure her needs are being met is the right one.
Mini 40
Good advice from Evan as always. Just to chime in on the cheater aspect… A guy who has had a lengthy affair is an adept liar who puts his own desires first. My ex told me early on that he cheated on a past live-in girlfriend and I wish I’d paid attention (and he seemed only slightly remorseful, justifying his behavior by explaining how she’d let herself go–my god, I must have been desperate, to ignore that little tidbit). He tried to cheat a couple years into our relationship, I confronted him, he behaved himself for several years (as far as I know) and then carried on a two-year affair that ultimately ended our marriage. Do I believe “once a cheater, always a cheater”? I do now.
Karmic Equation 41
I always say “An ex is an ex for a reason.” I think it behooves Patty to make herself remember those reasons. Focus on the negatives and forget the positives. It’s human nature to only remember the positives about someone no longer in our lives. Then she has to decide about Ken on his own merits.
becks 42
I’ve been a Patty before, and I left my Ken, after that it’s all downhill dating. That’s why I’m on Evan’s site looking for advice. Frankly, it doesn’t matter what advice Patty hears, she will not appreciate what she has until she loses it completely. I’ve been there and sometimes I regret my decision, sometimes I don’t. If there’s one good that came out from it, is that I will cherish what I have and start looking for happiness from within, and not always attribute my unhappiness to the person I’m with. Passion fades, character is what sustains.
Gina 43
I agree with both Hope and Nathan and would like to add that if OP doesn’t feel as strongly for Ken as she needs to after two years, but continues to date him without him knowing how she truly feels, then she is basically using him. Holding onto someone that you really do not feel strongly about just because he is a good man is selfish and unfair to that person–especially if she is contemplating dumping the person for someone else. She cannot force herself to feel something that she doesn’t truly feel. The honorable thing to do would be to let him go so that he can find someone who will love him the way in which he deserves to be loved.
Karmic Equation 44
@Angie #5
Thanks for the link. It’s very interesting.
onme 45
At any point has anybody considered what ken might want in this clusterfuck of a situation. It appears to about HER feelings towards both men, HER attraction to both, HER moral dilemma, HER recreation of times gone past, HER choosing bad-boy over good stable provider, HER needs, quite frankly she doesnt deserve either and sounds like a truly selfish person
Karl R 46
onme asked: (#45)
“At any point has anybody considered what ken might want in this clusterfuck of a situation.”
Of course, but Ken’s not asking for advice. It’s unlikely that he’s even reading this blog. There’s no point in advising him.
Furthermore, I suspect that what Ken wants (Patty) is different than what’s best for him.