Should I Reconnect With A Man Who Isn’t Looking For An Exclusive Relationship?
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Dear Evan,
People say “It will happen when you least expect it.” Well, I’ve been “least expecting it” for more than 10 years since my divorce. I’ve been “least expecting it” while raising my daughter, finishing college and managing a home and career.
Shortly after I was separated I dated a man casually. We spent a few long weekends together and he told me before we became intimately involved that he was not seeking a monogamous relationship. We were both in the same place. We never really had closure. I always felt good about not chasing him and knew that if he was interested he would contact me again.
Fast-forward 10 years. I was having a “least expecting it” morning sipping tea when he contacted me through email. He told me he had two exclusive relationships in the last 10 years but never married or had children. We enjoyed a wonderful afternoon that led to dinner that led to him spending the night. It was as if we were never apart. The attraction was greater than before. I told him I was not in the same place and not interested in a casual relationship. He was much more openly affectionate and forthcoming with his feelings than the first time we met. We agreed to take things slowly. I just felt like a game-playing high school girl if I were to send him home that night and withhold sex. So I took the chance.
If you lived in a cave in Mongolia, it would be safe to say that you wouldn’t expect to fall in love, wouldn’t it?
He didn’t rush out the next day and actually stayed most of the day. He called the next day and said “we should do it again some time.” Okay, that was an odd comment. But he called again the following day and we made plans for me to visit him. He told me how wonderful it was to be back together. How much he wants to spend time with me. He wanted to enrich my life and not cause stress. Words – I know. Actions – I know.
Here’s where it goes awry. I go to his house. It’s a very passionate erotic scene and then the reality hits. I am unnerved being at his house again, flashing back to my last time when I walked out and didn’t see him for 10 years. I became that woman. That needy insecure woman. I couldn’t shake the feeling and I am sure he noticed the shift in my energy. I told him that I was feeling anxious. He asked what he could do to make me feel better. So I told him that I did not want to date other people and wanted to know what he was seeking. Then I heard exactly what I dreaded: he does not want an exclusive relationship. He was open and honest and I respect his position. Once again I walked out of his house not knowing where he stands or plans to go. He called that evening to make sure I was home safely but did not ask to see me again. I don’t plan on calling him and chasing him. I made my feelings known and was clear about what I value in a relationship.
Evan, here is where I need your guidance. I feel he is worth spending time with and taking it slowly to see if it will grow into a wonderful authentic and loving relationship. How do I not lose my “least expected” moment? -Toni
Dear Toni,
Respectfully, your email has absolutely nothing to do with “love happens when you least expect it”.
If you lived in a cave in Mongolia, it would be safe to say that you wouldn’t expect to fall in love, wouldn’t it?
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67 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Cheryl 1
Toni- I’m sorry for your anguish. I feel your pain.
Evan- I love you! In a completely platonic way. Best and funniest advice ever.
Steve 2
Great advice all around. Letting things happen isn’t the same as doing nothing. You have to do some food prep and get a pot on the stove cooking before you can “let it happen”. I don’t agree with painting the guy in a bad light. He was completely upfront and honest about his intentions. I do agree that she doesn’t have a future with him and will get more happiness looking for someone.
Ruby 3
I’ve always felt that “love will happen when you least expect it” line was b.s. too. It certainly won’t happen with a guy who tells you upfront that he’s not interested in being your boyfriend. I’d have been doubly insulted knowing that this man did have 2 exclusive relationships with others. But guess what, those didn’t work out either! And I fail to see how “taking things slowly’ includes sex on the first meeting after 10 years apart. It sounds like a line he used to string the OP along again.
I would put the guy in a bad light because he should have told her prior to sex that he wasn’t looking for anything serious. But he knew he might not get laid if he’d been more honest. And Toni knows exactly where he stands now, she doesn’t doesn’t want to accept it.
Helen 4
“Love will happen when you least expect it” is as true as “Pregnancy will happen when you least expect it” – in other words, almost never.
I agree with Ruby’s second paragraph.
SS 5
It’s really disappointing to hear that people equate withholding sex until exclusivity to being a “game-playing high school girl.”
Yeah, how’s that working out?
LK 6
Taking things slow means not having sex for three to four months, not jumping into bed with the guy on the first date after not seeing him for 10 years. I wonder if the guy just got out of one of these exclusive relationships and randomly had a fond though about the OP and decided to get in touch with her.
I also disagree with the ‘things happen when you least expect it’. Things happen when you stop trying to control a situation, which most people interpret as giving up expectations, but in actuality these are two different things. Not controlling the situation is letting the guy lead the pace of the relationship or letting a guy that’s not good, go or giving a chance to someone who you don’t expect to be right for you. Giving up expectations is packing up your bags and moving to a nunnery where you’ll never see a man again. I mean sure, you might develop a secret affair with a priest or the garden boy so the not expecting love statement would apply, but considering that ratio of men/women in a nunnery, the chances are pretty slim to nil.
Terri 7
Toni:
The fact that he had two exclusive relationships in the past 10 years and tells you about it – whether they worked out or not – tells me he is garbage. He contacts you knowing you had feelings for him and betting on easy sex.
I have heard of situations where a man tells a woman he does not want an exclusive relationship but then meets someone who really zaps him and changes his tune. What he is really saying is “I don’t want an exclusive relationship with YOU.” Sorry to be so blunt.
Remember the words of this song “In this world only you make me do for love what I would not do.” Don’t recall singer or name of song but this has stayed with me for years.
Research tells us that men fall in love earlier in a relationship than a woman. You deserve better than him. Check out some online dating sites that specialize in your interests to start. But do not have anything to do with him again.
I feel for you and wish you the best…..
Jadafisk 8
… wait, what? But unexpected pregnancies happen all of the time.
Venus 9
So he had two exclusive relationships AFTER he dated the OP was absent for ten years, wanders back into her life with the message that he is not looking for anything serious. WOW!! I agree with Evan’s advice. Candid and hardhitting.
I will risk some ostracism here however by suggesting that since you have already slept with him and he has made himself available to be used, go ahead and use him. Get your groove on then dump his behind saying “this was fun but I want more” and move on with your life.
SS 10
Remember the words of this song “In this world only you make me do for love what I would not do.” Don’t recall singer or name of song but this has stayed with me for years.
Bobby Caldwell, “What You Won’t Do For Love.”
Fawn 11
Dump the dick…. I love it!!!
Liz 12
@Venus – That sounds like it would completely backfire on her, as she is likely to develop more and more feelings for him the more time they spend together.
Diana 13
I feel sympathy for the writer. I greatly sense that he contacted her at a time when she happened to be feeling vulnerable and lonely. Her letter kind of taps into something that Nathan posted in his comment #186 in the “Why Don’t Men Hate Being Single” thread which is (to paraphrase) how people end up twisting themselves into something they don’t want to be, in order to have someone in their life, especially someone who isn’t a great match. The writer wants exclusivity, and he clearly stated that he does not, but she’s willing to work through a casual dating arrangement and subvert her needs in the hope that more time will give her the authentic, wonderful relationship with him that she’s hoping for, while not being authentic herself.
When she writes that she “took the chance,” this sounds to me like she decided to chance that even though she wasn’t sure on that night if he wanted the same thing as she did, she felt that being intimate might help to persuade or influence him on the issue. This sounds like high-school, and not the other way around.
I think she also read too much into his words. Yes, he thought it was wonderful. Yes, he wants to spend time her her. Yes, he’d like to enrich her life and not cause stress, and take things slow. But this does NOT mean he wants exclusivity. Of course, since he’s been involved in a few relationships, he may have very well known how she’d interpret all of his platitudes, and didn’t care to further explain because he hoped to continue being intimate with her.
My advice is to move on, and don’t ever look back to him again. While I think they both played their part, I liked Evan’s final parting words!
Tish 14
Dang Evan! Talk about keeping it real! LOL I like what you said, this guy is a friggin selfish douchebag. What I find and have learned from reading your book and newsletters, etc. is that guys will do exactly what you allow them to do. She appears to be allowing him to string her along. Ten years, PALEAZE!!!! That’s not love, that’s somebody who’s got nothing else better to do or no one else better to email! LOL Dump the dick is right! LMAO!!!
Still the man Evan, still the man. . . . .
Starr 15
Yep, this guy doesn’t want an exclusive relationship with her. Girl, take Evan’s advice. Get on match.com and give it a go.
nathan 16
I find the comments that this guy is a douchebag questionable. From Toni’s letter, it doesn’t sound like in neither case did he lead her on. Both times, he told her he didn’t want to be exclusive. Ten years ago, it sounds like neither of them were really keen on having an exclusive relationship. Now, their goals are totally different.
To me, the only thing that stands out is that he told her he’d had two exclusive relationships in the meantime. So, either he’s not into her enough to commit, or he’s not being upfront about something. Perhaps with more information he turns out to be just an ass, but with what we have now, it’s hard to tell.
However, then there’s this:
Then I heard exactly what I dreaded: he does not want an exclusive relationship. He was open and honest and I respect his position. Once again I walked out of his house not knowing where he stands or plans to go. He called that evening to make sure I was home safely but did not ask to see me again.
Just reading those sentences shows that she heard exactly where he stands, but hopes maybe things will change. I have been in that place before. It almost never changes, and who wants to spend huge chucks of their life waiting for something that has only a small chance of coming? Too many do, so Toni, if you’re reading this, I hope you choose to let go of him.
Natalie 17
This is why you’re one of the very few blogs that I read – you cut through the fluff and you made me laugh at the end.
What this man did was do what a lot of unavailable men do – test to see if the door is open. He exploited the history and ‘nostalgia’, pressed the Reset Button as if he’d only been gone a hot minute instead of 10 fricking years, and he even through in a spot of fast forwarding and swept her off her feet for an evening. He probably thought she might realise that he’s not the relationship kind. Then he thought she might go along with things. Then he had to clarify that not a damn thing had changed in 10.fricking.years. This guy is a pisstaker! The best thing she could do is meet this man as a closed door and stop letting herself be an option.
Should you reconnect with a man who isn’t looking for a relationship? is like asking ‘Should I reconnect with a disconnected man that only wants to connect for a casual relationship? ‘
Natalie 18
Eek I meant ‘threw’ !
Detha 19
I think that most people have been too hard on this guy! He was upfront with the OP when she expressed the sort of relationship she is seeking. More guys should be as honest as he was.
Andrea 20
Wow, this is why I love Evan. He tells a woman what she needs to hear even it if is painful.
What I am wondering about though is why Toni feels that witholding sex even when a woman is still not sure about a man is “childish high school girl.” Evan says to have sex when you feel safe that a man is becoming your boyfriend. That means calling regularly and making her a priority. I am pretty sure I read that. It seems to me that the childish high school girl is actually dating in a more mature way.
I am wondering if it is because he contacted after 10 years she feels he must have been thinking about all those 10 years and she thought that meant they were meant to be together. But it sounded like it was more convenient for him to hook up with a very willing ex.
Toni only had a few romantic words to go by and certainly not the actions of a boyfriend. It is almost like she is saying that if a man says romantic words and gives us hope for a future we must give him sex. Is sex a reward for sweet talk?
I hope Match will bring her someone will be where authentic love is.
starthrower68 21
One of the hardest things to learn to do is not be blinded by those emotions and see these situations for what they are. Maybe the dude is a selfish jerk or maybe he is a good guy who took advantage of available sex. And I don’t think the OP should beat herself up. After some time and distance she will see this situation more clearly. Whether we hurt ourselves in such a situation or not, it still hurts. The OP has my sympathy as I have made this mistake a time or two. I have learned that if they are not in regular contact with you – and I don’t mean constantly checking in, etc. – that’s the point to fade out and move on. When a period of time passes and they call you again, you know you’re just a booty call, HJNTIY, etc.
Angie 22
“Love” when you least expect it… nah.
“Amazing, incredible sex when you least expect it”… absolutely!
I think the problem is that the number of men we can have incredible mind-blowing sex with is far less than the number of kind-hearted men who want relationships with us. That’s the real problem.
Margo 23
I’m so sorry, Toni. Wow! What a royal douchebag this guy is. This guy played her twice! And she let him!This is what I want to know Toni: The second time he came around, why didn’t you ask him if he was interested in an exclusive relationship with you BEFORE you slept with him??
He’s scum. He’s a user. Please lose his phone number and don’t answer his calls. He doesn’t want a relationship now anymore than he did 10 years ago. He jiust wanted to get his rocks off. Can’t you see that?
Margo 24
@Nathan#17, Um… You’re incorrect. The second time this snake slithered back, he told her he didn’t want to be in a relationship with her AFTER he got in between her legs, not before.
Andrea 25
No I don’t think that the OP should beat herself up at all and may of us have been there. I believe she was sincere in thinking this had a chance to being something more based his talk until he realized she wanted more, then he was more upfront.
But I would suggest that she re-think the stance that not sleeping with a man equals childish high school game playing. It is just something two adults agree on and if that is what she wants to do then fine. This was essentially a first date after a long absence and a lot of women would be happy to go on the date but not sleep with him so soon after reconnecting. While I have no moral judgement of whether it is right or wrong I don’t understand why sending him home after a wonderful date without sex is considered game playing and high schoolish.
nathan 26
Margo – I’m guessing you’re the same Margo from the other thread – here’s what I read:
She goes over to his house. She starts to feel anxious and he asks her what’s up. She tells him she doesn’t want to see other people and asks him to tell her what he wants. And he tells her he doesn’t want an exclusive relationship.
Now, I totally think she should move on. They don’t at all seem to be on the same page. He should have been more clear about his relationship desires before they slept together. And/or she should have asked him before they slept together.
But it’s really too easy to just say “dude’s scum” when there really isn’t the kind of glaring nastiness or red flags contained in stories about men, dating, and relationships. Just as others could easily just blame Toni for being a sucker, childish, a fool, etc. here.
Perhaps I’m wrong to give the benefit of the doubt to this guy, but the main reason why I don’t think it’s helpful to just call someone an asshole, and blame it on them, is that you have less incentive to check your own role in the situation.
Which I why I think Evan’s focus on calling out the unlikely reconnection fantasy is great advice. It focuses on what Toni might look at in herself, and what might help her move on and find someone who actually wants to be with her. If Evan had just called the dude a dick and told her to move on, that would have done absolutely nothing to address her part in the situation.
Also, I totally agree with Andrea at #25. I have held back from having sex in at least three situations I can recall off hand where I didn’t feel comfortable with being that intimate with the woman I was with. It wasn’t about game playing; it was about being honest with where I was at. No one should feel pressure to have sex. And I think it especially makes sense to wait when it’s the first time seeing someone, or seeing someone again after a long absence.
Gem 27
I don’t see why he or she would have assumed it appropriate to be exclusive upon seeing/sleeping together once after a 10 year absence. As much as I can understand powerful attraction and the feeling that no time had past, time DID pass. Ten years is a long time, and taking it slow to get to know each other again would have been a good idea-if for no other reason than to avoid this.
I’m all for grown adults doing what they want sexually, but clearly, sex put her at a disadvantage emotionally and now I think she’ll likely wind up hurt if she continue any kind of connection to him.
I’d stone wall him. Seriously…I wouldn’t answer his calls or texts (if he even tries) and move on. If she talks to or sees him again, she’ll probably wind up in bed again. I wouldn’t set myself up for that heartbreak.
starthrower68 28
The OP may have thought after he said he didn’t want to have an exclusive relationship that she could handle sex without a commitment. Sometimes we try to fool ourselves into thinking we can and find out otherwise after its too late. Proverbs 4:23 beloved….”Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life”.
Josie 29
Totally feel for the writer….as 10 years is rather long time.
More or less like false expectation on someone whom she has feelings for…
But at least he can be open and honest about it, not every man will tell you upfront what they want.
Move forward as you deserve better~
Mika 30
Toni, you have my sympathy as well. This mind-blowing passion is like an addictive substance and once an addict — always an addict. That’s why you should stay away from this guy because you totally lose a sense of yourself and rational thinking ability when you get to taste this substance again — as everybody here sees that the guy was quite straightforward with you as to what his motives were, but you did not get the message. If he ever calls back, thank him for the wake up call and wish him all the best.
I appreciate that Evan called the guy a dick and many others scum- or douchebag as the guy was clearly fishing for an easy catch, but at the same time, I don’t see anything from the OP’s letter that would suggest that he led her on. Emotionally unavailable people do it all the time — it’s easier for them to go back to their former lovers to fill the void instead of finding someone new.
It would be interesting to find out who’s more inclined — men or women– to getting “quick fix” aka rebound relationship via reaching out to their ex-es versus finding new connections. Would you guys please share your thoughts?
Check Pleaseee 31
Great advice!!! I agree. Especially if a man says outright that they are uninterested in a relationship. From my experience, men are like animals (in a good way) if they want something, they go out and get it. Nothing will stand in their way. However, the reverse is also true. If they do not want something- nothing will change their mind. In reality men are simple creatures, its us women who play games (with holding sex for example) to try to snag them. If a guy wants you- you will know and he better be deserving of what you have to offer.
SJZ 32
I really don’t understand why we women give men so much credit when we know the truth about a situation. If I had a girlfriend who had hurt me 10 years ago and I let her in again, only to hurt me again would I be stressing about should I continue our friendship? Heck no! Lets just all look at each other as people instead of making the man versus woman distinction. Ask yourself the question, would I like this person if they told me they wanted to be my friend? Would I think they have my best interests at heart? I know it is hard to let go and start over again but, we really should concentrate on all the people who care about us in the world and not keep running after those who don’t.
Zann 33
Lots of good responses here.
Remember that awful, cheesy quote about — If you love something, set it free…..and if he comes draggin’ his butt back across your doorstep years later – He’s all yours!”
Toni, take heart. Even though I admire Evan’s directness, who on this Earth hasn’t fallen into some form of magical thinking when an old flame reappears. I’ve had my own experiences with the guy from my past who re-surfaces after “luckily” coming across my phone number or email address in an old address book. And suddenly it feels like “old times,” only better, because you’ve had years to rethink him into an even better version of him than he actually is. When the flattery & excitement of rekindling is over, usually he’s the same ol’ guy…and you’re the same old you, and even though years have passed, you likely still each want different things from a relationship.
It’s hard to resist the pull of an old flame, especially when you’re feeling vulnerable and so utterly single. Now that you know what he doesn’t want, don’t give this guy another second of your time or angst. Don’t spin out over the “why” behind it, because it’s just not going to get you anywhere but stuck. You don’t need stuck, you need proactive.
Evan’s advice is solid. You can’t control who will be attracted to you, but you can certainly make sure others know you are available and seeking. Good luck and move ahead.
Margo 34
@Nathan #26. You see no “glaring nastiness or red flags” in this man’s behavior? Really?? He screws her over ten years ago, then he comes back and has a one night stand with her without any mention of another date. You know why? Because there isn’t going to be another date. He got what he wanted, now he’s done with her again. Sure, he’d be up for more sex if she chases him. Why should he turn it down? She’s not going to get a relationship from him though. Evan was right about every crude word he used in describing this filthy man. He played her, plain and simple.
I agree with Andrea #25 that for Toni to think that denying this man sex the first night he comes back after a ten-year absence is high school game playing is dysfunctional thinking. It is not. It is prudent, especially because of what he is.
Toni, I hope you made him used condoms. It is definitely time for a trip to the STD clinic. Evan advised you not to see him again. Ignore that at your own peril.
@Mika #30 “The guy was quite straightforward with her regarding what his motive were.” Yes, but AFTER he slept with her. She told him the first night he slithered back and before they had sex that she wasn’t interested in a casual relationship. Then the OP said they agreed to take it slow. Then she went to his house, they had sex again, then he told her he didn’t want a relationship. At least that is what I am reading.
This isn’t honesty. It’s deceit.
BeenThruTheWars 35
#7 Terri took the words right outta my mouth. Any time we’re uncertain about what a person MEANS when (s)he utters a phrase like, “I don’t want an exclusive relationship,” we’ll obtain clarity if we simply add “… with you” (or “… when it comes to you”) to the end.
I don’t want an exclusive relationship… with you.
I don’t believe in monogamy… with you.
I don’t like spending the whole night… with you.
I’m just looking for something casual… with you.
I’m not ready to make a commitment yet… with you.
I’m just really jammed at work right now… when it comes to you.
It will save you LOADS of heartache and pain if you learn to apply this simple trick whenever there’s any question about your beloved’s intentions.
nathan 36
Margo, we can agree to disagree. I’m not quite sure where you get the sense that he “screwed her over” 10 years ago, but whatever. Both of us believe she should move on, so continuing to debate the motives of the guy seems fruitless to me.
CheckPleaseee – “men are simple creatures” – another tired stereotype lives on! Thanks for the laugh.
Trenia 37
My aunt used to always tell me the first time someone does something crazy to you, shame on them. But if they do it a second time, shame on me. And I completely agree with Mika #30, this kind of passion is an absolute addiction, it’s purely intoxicating and can take over your sense of logic and reasoning. This woman clearly knows the situation wasn’t right for her, but she wanted to have that passion, even if just for the moment. And after 10 years, I can understand that. So good for her for getting a need met.
But the reality is either you’re single because you just haven’t met the right person yet, or it’s not going to happen for you. Plain and simple. Now, I agree with Evan, you’ll certainly increase your odds of finding the right relationship for you if you’re going out on one date a week, but for some people this could also lead to a dead end. But these options are better than spending time with the man who’s directly telling you he doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you.
Sheyna 38
Oh it’s like that Maya Angelou quote that Oprah repeats all the time…the first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Darn if it isn’t always true.
Nicole 39
I’m not sure why so many posters love act like all men are evil and women are victims. People clearly interject a lot of their own emotions and extrapolate and interpolate a lot of things that aren’t written, or in some cases seem to ignore what was written entirely.
The OP wrote that she dated this man casually and BEFORE they became intimate, he said that he didn’t want a relationship with her.
So fast forward 10 years and then run across each other again, but I don’t think it makes him a jerk because they had sex and he still didn’t want a relationship. In fact, I would think that the fact that he had relationships with other women but not her would have turned her off, not made her jump into bed with him, b/c he was clearly CAPABLE of exclusivity, but he just didn’t want it with HER.
He didn’t tell any lies or make any promises. and considering that their PREVIOUS relationship wasn’t exclusive or serious, I’m not sure why he’s have to re-explain that to her to not be a “user” and a “jerk.”
Unles he contacted her after 10 years with promises of building a life with her, he’s nothing more than an opportunist who saw a chance to hook up with an old flame.
She seems a bit silly and immature in the way that she handled this in my opinion.
SS 40
@37
But the reality is either you’re single because you just haven’t met the right person yet, or it’s not going to happen for you.
Eh, I completely disagree. There are too many people in this world and too many years we live on this Earth to make a blanket statement that “it’s not going to happen for you.” You have the chance to be in a relationship until the day you die… and unless we’re talking about people who are profoundly disabled or have some major mental/physical situation that gets in the way of finding love, I don’t think one can just chalk up longterm singleness to “it’s not going to happen for you.” That’s a dangerous belief.
In a number of cases, it’s true that one hasn’t met the right person yet, but I also think that people put their own obstacles in the way of finding the right person. In Toni’s case, she hasn’t been dating and now she’s mentally caught up with Mr. Wrong. She could have completely different results if she lets go of Mr. Wrong and gets back out there… we don’t know yet, but in her case, I don’t think her situation can be chalked up either to “she hasn’t met the right person,” or “it’s not going to happen to her.” Those are two very absolute and almost extreme polar positions… leaves no room for gray areas.
LK 41
Nicole/Nathan,
Please read the letter carefully. Toni says..
I told him I was not in the same place and not interested in a casual relationship. He was much more openly affectionate and forthcoming with his feelings than the first time we met. We agreed to take things slowly. I just felt like a game-playing high school girl if I were to send him home that night and withhold sex. So I took the chance.
First, she told him that she wasn’t interested in a casual relationship. He responded well to this and agreed to take things slowly, which I would assume that he verbally confirmed Toni’s feelings. Then they got intimate.
He didn’t rush out the next day and actually stayed most of the day…But he called again the following day and we made plans for me to visit him. He told me how wonderful it was to be back together. How much he wants to spend time with me. He wanted to enrich my life and not cause stress.
So here he is, after she told him that she is not interested in a casual relationship and had sex, following up with her and telling her how great she is. Yes, she should take responsibility for her life. But considering that she put out the disclaimer before they had sex, and he was spouting praises to her, I can see how she can think that it was going somewhere.
. I told him that I was feeling anxious. He asked what he could do to make me feel better. So I told him that I did not want to date other people and wanted to know what he was seeking. Then I heard exactly what I dreaded: he does not want an exclusive relationship.
Then, after her disclaimer, after the sex, after following up, only when she confronts him does he tell her that he is not looking for an exclusive relationship.
Even though I think that jumping into bed with this guy was a really stupid idea and Toni needs to know better for the future, if someone tells you that they are not interested in a casual relationship and you ARE interested in casual relationship and withhold that information POST-sex, you are a douchebag in my book.
Trenia 42
@40, I’m unclear where the gray matter is between you haven’t met the right person yet, whether you’re actively dating or not regardless of how long it takes, and it’s not going to happen for you. Even though Toni wasn’t actively dating i.e. online dating, she could’ve just met someone at the supermarket or the dentist, but she hasn’t yet. Additionally, there are many people who are disabled who are in relationships, so that has nothing to do with it.
I think this is a “dangerous belief” if you believe being in a relationship is superior to being single. Do I think most people can and will end up with someone? Sure. But if you want to get down to it, those two options are what exist.
Venus 43
Nicole @ 39,
I believe him stating that he had relationships with other women may have made the OP feel that he was now open to a long term relationship and was in the same place that she was. This probably influenced her decision to sleep with him.
What is painful here is the realisation that he is obviously capable of exclusivity but does not seem to think that the OP qualifies for this level of consideration. What a douchebag.
SS 44
@42, Toni or anyone could be single for 10 years for exactly the reasons she said and Evan said… too much belief in the idea that “it happens when you least expect it.” Yes, any of us could have met our potential mates in a supermarket, but if it didn’t happen that way and we didn’t do anything else in an attempt to meet a partner, then yes, it is potentially more than “it just hasn’t happened yet.” That’s the gray area.
It happened for me when I actually put some effort into online dating and making it a point to meet more people. So in my case, yes, it didn’t happen yet, but when it did happen, it certainly was not by chance. It was a direct result of efforts I took to meet a potential husband (online dating).
On this board, since it is a dating board, one can make the assumption that the majority of people here would prefer being in a relationship over being single, so yes, it is a dangerous thought pattern that one has absolutely no control over the process of meeting someone and entering into a positive, healthy relationship. Perhaps that’s why most of the readers and posters visit Evan’s blog and purchase his services… because they reject the idea that there’s no options besides “it hasn’t happened yet” and “it will never happen.”
And I said, “profoundly disabled.” Like, people who are in a vegetative state or the folks in the past trapped in iron lungs. Those are the only ones who I think would fall into the category where it’s pretty cut and dried that they likely would not have a relationship happen for them… I was not referring to people in wheelchairs who function well in every other capacity but physically or with bipolar disorder that’s managed by medication and therapy.
Cecilia 45
Even when the writing is on the wall no-one wants to feel that they’ve been spending time with a timewaster so the wishful thinking of ” I feel he is worth spending time with and taking it slowly to see if it will grow into a wonderful authentic and loving relationship.” is understandable as the reality means questioning one’s own judgment – even when it needs to be questioned! And that’s where coaches come in
Sherell 46
Fool me once, shame on you;
fool me twice, shame on me
Sherell 47
Maybe his version of slowly is to see where things go. When she went right to exclusivity, after sex it was too fast for him. Her version should have been no sex. In any event move on.
Jennifer 48
I feel for the letter writer as I know she is disappointed, but I don’t see how he used her.
Ten years before he was upfront about his desire to not have a relationship.
When they reconnected she says she ‘took a chance’ and had sex with him- she knew it was a gamble and she took it. She didn’t trick herself and he didn’t trick her. Also while I’m not saying she *had* to sleep with him that night, I totally get what she means about feeling like a high school girl if she sent him away.
It seemed that everything was going fine until she got to his house and ‘flipped out’ and started acting ‘insecure’ and asked him about being exclusive from that needy place. I can totally understand how she was feeling, but I’m thinking that may have had some effect on how he saw the situation and answered her question.
That said, I still don’t think this guy is worth the pursuit and if I were her I would’ve been pretty put off by the two exclusive relationships he’d had in the meantime.
And I agree that she should start expecting love and putting herself in the right places to receive it!
Ruby 49
This is probably the single most important dating lesson I’ve learned: that is up to us to qualify whether a man is worthy or not. It doesn’t matter what they TELL us, it’s up to us to verify whether or not they mean what they say. If a separated man says he’s over his ex and ready to move on, it’s up to us to question whether or not that could actually be the case, rather than just blindly trusting the guy or acting on faith. So when Mr. Casual barged back in to Toni’s life again, it was up to her to determine whether or not he would be the real deal this time, rather than just sleeping with him again because he acted more open and affectionate than he had in the past.
Nicole 50
Venus #43…we said the same thing there. I commented on the fact that he had committed to two other women and not to her. As much as it might suck not to be chosen by someone who then choses someone else, that doesn’t in and of itself make said person a douchebag. That just makes him/her not right for you.
The letter writer believed what she wanted to believed, and hoped that by having sex she could somehow win him over. This wasn’t her first time with this guy so she chose to see everything that happened between them in a different way than it was actually happening.
@LK, you ASSUMING that the OP’s’ guy verbally confirmed her feelings carries even less weight than her ASSUMING that by sleeping with her he was going to be her boyfriend. Why would you evev write that.
As usual, everyone is assuming things that weren’t written. You are ASSUMING that things were said that she didn’t write, and I’m ASSUMING that what she wrote is what happened.
@Sherell 46 and 47, Exactly…she did the same thing twice and expected a different result. That was really silly. I feel bad for her, but she kind of had a playbook to refer to with this particular guy.
Margo 51
Nicole…We are not assuming anything. Like LK showed you, it’s right there in black and white. She told him she wasn’t interested in a “casual” relationship, then he slept with her. The second night at his house, the slimeball got it again, THEN he told her he didn’t want a relatonship.
What is it about this you don’t understand?
Annie 52
@ Ruby #49
Well said. I read recently about some guys who literally said, that if you didn’t sleep with them after 2 weeks, then that was it. Okay, what if a woman wants to get to know you first, and determine what kind of man you are and wether or not you are just attempting to use her?
The answer was of course “I will NOT be tested, if i say I can be trusted, a woman will believe me, or not…but if she tests me, she’ll be looking at the door”.
It’s as though she’s a bad, nasty manipulative female, because she won’t “put out” straight away, and he’s the big strong man who won’t be tested.
As an adendum to this conversation, the males who were all replying like this and refused to wait for sex said “Well, I need to know that she can fullfill my sexual needs first, otherwise I won’t bother”.
There is so much entitlement with people these days, when it comes to sex, exclusivity …well everything really. So basically, ignore it all, and simply wait until you feel comfortable.
The Irony of the above, is that while a Man will NOT be tested to see wether he is trustworthy, he is very quick to add, that he needs to “test a woman” for her sexual compatibility. Well…we don’t like being ‘Tested” like a used car either.
A man pushing for sex too soon, is like a woman pushing for exclusivity too soon. Neither is attractive imo.
Gem 53
Ruby #49 said it perfectly!!
Sherell 54
If she did not want a casual relationship then she should have been more serious about with who and how she has sex. Talk is cheap. She treated herself as a casual fling! And tried to say she was something else. Initially he may have been interested in more.
Margo 55
@Annie and Gem #’s 52 & 53, Yep. Trust but verify.
Happy 56
In hindsight, Toni knew she was taking a gamble on “Mr. Casual” based on ambiguity.
What he said “sounded” good, but never really clearly stated tacit agreement with her and she didn’t wait for confirmation through his behavior. Her wishful thinking made her believe that the odds for exclusivity with him were in her favor.
I had a similar experience. His words, at first, sounded like complete agreement with my requirement of sexual exclusivity, giving me a false sense of security. But my gut feelings and intuition, coupled with certain behaviors on his part and what he was NOT saying, made me continually question and doubt that. It was draining for me to continue in the relationship under those circumstances. I thought it was me, that I was just not trusting enough, didn’t have enough faith.
After a couple of months of struggling with this ambiguity, I decided I would have to draw the line in the sand that I was no longer interested in sex with him, that I could feel assured beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was exclusivity. Finally, he clearly communicated in words, that he had not decided that I was the one he wanted to be exclusive with. As an aside — part of the problem, which became more apparent to me, was — he was firmly entrenched in relationship based on reward and punishment. Another topic for another time.
Anyway, needless to say, sex came to a screeching halt and he went poof.
What I learned from this was to make sure I am absolutely sure and comfortable that the man actually means what he says, before investing too much time and energy in a relationship with, and accepting sub-par behavior from a deceitful “douchebag”. I am OK with using such derogatory terms, because it makes more of an impact on me, and less likely to repeat the mistake in the future.
No more dumpster diving for this prize catch!!
Evan Marc Katz 57
@Margo – Her fault, not his. She’s responsible for her behavior. Just like I’m not responsible if my wife eats a gallon of ice cream although we’re both trying to be healthy right now. Women’s ability to put blame on men for things that THEY did remains unparalleled.
Nicole 58
@Margo…right, but you are assuming that they interpret sex the same way. I’m not sure why you would sleep with someone who said they didn’t want a casual relationship if sex for you is part of a committed relationship.
So why should he infer that if she agrees to sleep with him that he’s agreeing to a serious relationship?
That’s what is nuts. For the record, I don’t believe in casual sex, but if someone said, hey, I don’t want to be in a relationship with you and I sleep with him, it’s MY fault that I didn’t keep my panties on.
You are infantilizing the letter writer by acting as though it’s his responsibility to make sure that she’s not violating her own belief system.
I would think that if someone said, hey, I don’t want to get serious, and then you sleep with him, he’s safe in assuming that you don’t view the sex as something that you only do in a committed relationship. I would say that he’s safe in assuming that you are okay having a fling or being a friend with benefits.
How exactly is that unclear?
All of this happened because the letter writer decided that she didn’t want to believe what was told to her and she chose to set aside what was done to her in the past, and instead built a fantasy that he would commit to her b/c he had committed to two other women and maybe because she slept with him.
It seems as if she made exactly the same mistake with the same man twice, and this is pretty silly, b/c it didn’t sound like he ever pretended to want a future with her 10 years ago either.
Venus 59
@ Nicole 50
After a while all these arguments and discussion become circular. So in repeating what others have said…
His behaviour defines him and the title is appropriate because he KNEW that she was not interested in a short term relationship yet he pressed on with his agenda. He did not state his position upfront until AFTER he had slept with her and she finally insisted on a response.
Men are not stupid, if you say the word Oxytocin, they probably won’t know what you are referring to. But they KNOW that a woman becomes more vulnarable after she has slept with them. They know that it is more difficult for her to walk away after she has slept with them. This is why some will simply disappear after they commit the act while others will stay around and use it to their advantage.
This guy was setting himself up for a casual relationship and rather than putting his cards on the table upfront he sought to gain an oxytocin advantage first.
I definately agree that women are responsible for their actions. But its part of our make up to want to believe in the fairy tale ending. (Damn those Grim Brothers!)
txcntrygrl 60
Thanks for posting this one Evan. I feel like I’ve learned a lot from your readers’ questions and your answers. I use them to go back when I’m feeling weak and to reset my brain when the fairy tales start creeping back in. This week was one of those times where I kept thinking about a guy I really fell for, who never committed and probably never will to anyone. He always contacts me when I am dating someone else…and we know why. I have a wonderful guy in my life now and I know I should focus on him, but sometimes those stupid fantasies get the best of me. Thanks for resetting my head again! The guy is a douche bag and its time to focus on a relationship I deserve with someone who is truly into me!
Evan Marc Katz 61
Note: Txcntrygrl is the original poster who asked the question.
nathan 62
“This week was one of those times where I kept thinking about a guy I really fell for, who never committed and probably never will to anyone. He always contacts me when I am dating someone else…and we know why.” Ah, I wish we’d had this piece of info during the conversation. I’m definitely less inclined to defend said dude after learning this.
But clearly, whereas some seem to want to pin it all on the guy, Toni herself recognizes the influence those fantasies have on her thoughts and behavior surrounding the situation.
Toni, you’ll burn through those stories. Do your best to stay focused on all the good things in your current relationship. That goes a long way in making the fantasies look pale in comparison.
BeenThereDoneThat 63
Is Karl on his honeymoon?
Joe 64
How can you claim the guy is a total douchebag?
1) 10 years ago he slept with the OP; she says that neither of them was looking for anything serious at the time.
2) 10 years later he contacts her and they sleep together.
3) She tells him she is now looking for a serious relationship.
4) He invites her over, she freaks and bails.
5) He takes her at her serious-relationship-wanting word and doesn’t contact her again.
IMO, the only douchebaggery you can pin on him is him inviting her over after being told she wants something serious. And even the most vociferous among you can surely understand why the guy might have done it: even though she claimed to be interested only in a serious relationship, she gave it up on their first “reconnection” date. Who wouldn’t give it another shot?
InsertPseudonymHere 65
@Joe
I told him I was not in the same place and not interested in a casual relationship. . . . he called again the following day and we made plans for me to visit him. He told me how wonderful it was to be back together. How much he wants to spend time with me. . . It’s a very passionate erotic scene . . . I told him that I did not want to date other people and wanted to know what he was seeking. . . .he does not want an exclusive relationship.
She told him that she did not want a casual fling. He calls her back, says he wants to spend more time with her and they were either intimate again or getting close to that and then he tells he is not going to be exclusive with her. He knew her parameters and that he was not going to meet them, yet still pursued sex with her again. Shame on Toni for not directly asking him how he felt sooner, but he lied through non-disclosure.
Margo 66
re #64, there you have it ladies: If you put out on the first date, you’re going to be treated like a slut.
Lori 67
There have been so many great comments and observations made about this situation that I wasn’t sure I could add anything new, but I don’t think there was any discussion about how they had agreed to take things slowly– then she came over the next day and said she wanted to be exclusive (rather opposite of one another). He may have been initially interested in developing a relationship with her, but thought that “taking things slowly” meant not being exclusive right away. I agree that the best initial course of action for her would have been to not have sex with him until all feelings and intentions were on the table.