The End of Men? Not Quite.
I’m a big Stephanie Coontz fan. She’s a truth-teller who uses statistics to illustrate reality instead of using it to obscure it.
Her New York Times article from February was a revelation and taught me that the two biggest predictors of marital success were a man’s willingness to pick up on his wife’s emotional cues and his willingness to share in the housework and child rearing. This only went to further my theory that the best husbands were a little more sensitive, feminine and beta, despite many women’s stated preference for manly men.
The best husbands are a little more sensitive, feminine and beta, despite many women’s stated preference for manly men.
Coontz’s latest piece takes on Hanna Rosin’s “The End of Men”, which has a central theses that we hear in the comments section below from time to time: men are in crisis. Women are taking over. Except, as Coontz points out, it’s not really true. Women have made great strides in equality and may be better off than at any time in history, but their gains haven’t come at the expense of men, as Rosin has suggested.
Says Coontz, “If the ascent of women has been much exaggerated, so has the descent of men. Men’s irresponsibility and bad behavior is now a stock theme in popular culture. But there has always been a subset of men who engage in crude, coercive and exploitative behavior. What’s different today is that it’s harder for men to get away with such behavior in long-term relationships. Women no longer feel compelled to put up with it and the legal system no longer condones it. The result is that many guys who would have been obnoxious husbands, behaving badly behind closed doors, are now obnoxious singles, trumpeting their bad behavior on YouTube.
Their boorishness may be pathetic, but it’s much less destructive than the masculine misbehavior of yore. Most men are in fact behaving better than ever. Domestic violence rates have been halved since 1993, while rapes and sexual assaults against women have fallen by 70 percent in that time. In recent decades, husbands have doubled their share of housework and tripled their share of child care. And this change is not confined to highly educated men. Among dual-earner couples, husbands with the least education do as much or more housework than their more educated counterparts. Men who have made these adjustments report happier marriages — and better sex lives.
You got that, readers?
Most men are behaving better than ever.
Domestic violence has plummeted.
Rape has plummeted.
Both educated and uneducated husbands are doing more housework and child rearing.
Women are not better than men. Men aren’t all damaged and in perpetual crisis. For those of you who don’t believe this, I am not surprised. Science shows that if you offer facts that contradict your feelings, it makes you believe your feelings even stronger – even though this makes no logical sense.
I’m not saying that there is no longer domestic violence, rape, or selfish husbands. I’m saying that the closer we come to true equality, the less that women are willing to tolerate subpar behavior. This is – and has always been my message. You don’t like how a guy is acting? Dump him. Find a guy who makes you feel safe, heard, and understood. He exists…and lots of other women are happily married to him.
Check out the full article here and share your thoughts on whether you believe that men are the real problem in society – or if we’re truly closer to equal than ever before.
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75 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men
Fusee 1
Interesting read. No strong opinion about the contents though.
My two cents are that I like men and I would not want to live in a female-dominated environment. I certainly do not believe that “they are the real problem in society” : ) A societal problem I’m seeing for both genders though is a tendency to extend adolescence into the twenties, thirties, and something longer, and to delay accepting grown-up responsabilities. There is an increase in self-absorption, self-entitlement, and the pursuit of immediate gratification at the expense of self-control and long-term happiness. That, to me, is the real problem of western societies. For both genders.
Evan wrote: “…the two biggest predictors of marital success were a man’s willingness to pick up on his wife’s emotional cues and his willingness to share in the housework and child rearing. This only went to further my theory that the best husbands were a little more sensitive, feminine and beta, despite many women’s stated preference for manly men.”
Amen to that! I’ve never been attracted to alphas per se, but the few alpha men I briefly dated were no good long-term prospects and were relatively easy to leave. There was no equality in those relationships. It was all about them, their goals, their priorities, etc. The ability of my current non-alpha boyfriend to pick up on my emotional cues AND to care deeply about understanding how I feel and how he can contribute to my well-being is possibly THE most important feature that makes our relationship so successful. We are both equally perceptive of one another’s emotional well-being AND willing to follow through with the information. Like a lot of men he does not want to be told what to do (who likes that?) or nagged to clean the toilet. But when he sees a need, he does his best to contribute, whether this is in moving the relationship forward or vacuuming the floors.
Yep, good men do exist. But they do not usually come in 6-foot, sun-tanned, 100K+/year packages. They can look pretty ordinary. It’s their inside that is truly exceptional. I love my man.
Lilly 2
Best article on this site! Positive and shows us that there are good men out there!
Fiona 3
This is good to hear although I personally don’t find the fact that an uneducated man is likely to do more housework a substitute for an educated man that I can actually have an intelligent conversation with when between us we can pay a cleaner to do the housework. Just saying…I cannot imagine being happy with an uneducated man that doesn’t understand me or my life. No point in pretending otherwise.
Ruby 4
Fiona #3
“And this change is not confined to highly educated men. Among dual-earner couples, husbands with the least education do as much or more housework than their more educated counterparts.”
I wondered about this too. I’ve known men with little formal education who happened to be extremely bright, and men with college degrees who were pretty average in that respect. So I’m not sure how this correlates with actual intelligence.
Mickey 5
I couldn’t disagree more. Gender relations have deteriorated to the point that male bashing has replaced baseball as the national pastime. I really and truly believe that the majority of women are hard wired to dislike, distrust and devalue men.
Women will find fault with guys for any of the following reasons, at the minimum:
1) Men try to be decent and respectful, but that’s not good enough.
2) If men try to be the so-called “alpha-male”, he’s written off as overly cocky/insincere.
3) A man can’t read a woman’s mind and she gets mad.
4) Women are convinced that men bring nothing to the table.
5) The “all men are dogs” mentality.
6) Women carry themselves as “unapproachable” all the time.
7) If a guy disagrees with a woman for ANY reason, he’s automatically a jerk for it.
Guess what? It sure is hell hard for women to find a good man when all they do is run guys off at every opportunity.
Thus, the next time any woman starts whining that she can’t find a good man, I suggest that she LOOK UNDER HER SHOES!!! I’ll bet my last dollar that since she probably stepped on so many guys, that’s the most logical place to look!!!
Henriette 6
Mickey – I’m sorry that your experience with women has been so negative.
I don’t find that all men are jerks and I celebrate the decline in domestic violence. However, I agree with Fusee. I find that women and men today tend to stay in an extended adolescence that doesn’t lend itself to marriage & children.
For example, two of my most serious exes — both sweet, kind men who listened well and helped with housework — spend all their money as it comes in and have started their 40s with almost no assets but a continued desire to have crazy fun, keep travelling the world and go out… a lot. They wanted to marry me and part of me hoped that if we wed and had a few children they would automatically become more settled and financially responsible but that was too big a chance for me to take. I hear similar stories from my single girlfriends. And my guy friends meet plenty of women who spent decades ringing up debt and now want someone who’ll both keep them in Manolos and pay off all their creditors.
Fiona 7
Ruby, I am not saying that there aren’t some intelligent men who didn’t receive formal education although in my generation in the UK university was free of charge so most bright people with ambition went. It would have been strange not to so a failure to have received formal education here generally (although not always) indicates a lack of intelligence or a lack of effort or a lack of ambition – none of which are desirable qualities in a partner at least for me.
Selena 8
@Fiona #7
Since university was free to those of your generation didn’t most of the men you meet take advantage of it? Are you meeting a disproportionate men who didn’t? I’m having difficulty seeing your complaint here.
London lass 9
Great article Evan. I love reading things which challenge lazy and well-worn cliches and this did exactly that.
I like your conclusion too, that, even though there are men (and women) out there who won’t treat you well, your job is to identify them and walk away, so you can focus on the majority of good ones.
This is borne out in my own experience too. Although at the age of 35 I have had my share of ups and downs in the dating world and sometimes find it hard to keep the faith, I look around at my platonic male friends and the husbands of my female friends and I see many good, honest, kind, loyal men who make fantastic partners. That , along with articles like this, help me to remain hopeful about my own chances of finding a partner like that sometime.
Thanks Evan, you rock!
sarahrahrah! 10
@ Mickey
I think it all depends on what crowd you hang out with. I frequently go out with groups of both genders and we all enjoy each others company and experience each others’ frustrations. You see, we accept each other as fellow humans before we see each other as a potential catch (hopefully).
Are you finding any women who are happy themselves? I’d start with that as a qualifier before you consider anything else — beauty, body, smile, etc. When I think of happy people that I know, not one of them engages in bashing of the opposite sex. For the most part, they are all busy doing whatever they love to do and don’t have time to be picking apart others. I found that I was a lot happier myself when I got rid of my television service, too. It removed that trash-talking, bitchy element that is so prominent on television, but counter to my internal sense of decency.
I hope things get better for you!
Mickey 11
@sarahrahrah:
Point well taken; I’ve done many of the same things you’ve suggested.
However, the reason I gave up on dating a long time ago is that I believe that a large majority of women today tend to see men as both expendable and worthless. So, it’s kind of hard to think that there’s a special person out there when the male of the species tends to be vilified just for being a guy. When you have books, magazines, websites, blogs and so on screaming from the rooftops about how despicable men are, it’s real hard for me to believe that there’s a ;ight at the end of the tunnel.
It’s real easy to say hang in there and don’t give up and so on, but one can only take so much antipathy before finally getting out of Dodge.
Fiona 12
Selena, I am finding that well educated men my age that I meet tend to be married and the few that are left tend to be unwilling to get married to anyone.
Michelle 13
@Mickey, if that’s what you think and that’s what you tell yourself–these are your beliefs–this is exactly what you will get, women who are exactly like this. It can be difficult to rebound from bad experiences, but rebound we must, and with an open heart when we are ready.
It’s a world of abundance, not scarcity.
Timing is everything.
Everything is possible with an open heart.
starthrower68 14
@ Fusee & Henriette – about the “extended adolescence” thing: you might enjoy the book “The Death of the Grown-Up” by Diana West.
Mickey 15
@Michelle #13:
I only know what I’ve seen, and what I’ve seen over the years just isn’t pretty. Like I said, that’s why I gave up on this a long time ago.
And, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m far too cynical to believe that the fantasy of finding “the one” could possibly happen. Unfortunately, the more frustration one experiences, the less having “an open heart” becomes an option.
Henriette 16
@Mickey – this isn’t a slam; I’m genuinely curious. If you’ve given up on dating and the hope of “finding the one,” what are you doing on this website, which concerns itself with helping women find love? I often feel despondent about my dating prospects but there remains a glimmer of hope that keeps me reading blogs like this and get me to try and try again. Maybe you have a similar glimmer… or, maybe not?
Peter 17
Interesting discussion… As a guy who has a pretty clean resume: stably employed, alcohol/drug free, healthy, no legal history, educated, worldly, respectful, honest, and definitely not a “bad boy”; in other words, not an “end of men” kind of guy, and definitely not “in crisis”, I wouldn’t say I’ve had it that much easier in the dating and marriage scene. While there is obvious antipathy toward marginalized men, there still remains, in my view, a predilection among many women for the highest wage earner male with the most material success, and/or the flashiest and most brazen character. I suppose I would sound hyperbolic if I referred to this curious and oft-discussed phenomenon as “The End of Women”, as it flies in the face of what women almost overwhelmingly say they want in a man.
Mickey 18
@Henriette:
No offense taken; I know it wasn’t a slap.
What am I doing on a site like this? Presumably what everyone else is doing: reading interesting posts and occasionally voicing my opinion.
I understand there are those who still hold out that last shred of hope and are willing to try one more time. I’m just not one of them.
RW 19
@Mickey
I’m sorry your experiences have been so bad. Your points about the vilification of men are well taken. I’ve noticed this in the media more than anywhere else. But just as it doesn’t mean that men are actually the way they are portrayed, I can unequivocally say that not all women have the attitude you describe. I would go as far as saying that it is not even the majority who subscribe to this attitude. Not asking you to change your mind as your experiences speak for themselves but your comments made me sad.
@Peter
Could it just be that women look not for the “highest wage earner” but one who earns at least as much as they do themselves? There may be a bit of hypocrisy there but the fact remains that if a couple decides to have children, it is the woman who will incur the loss of wages and whose career will potentially be set back. Given that, while I am still somewhat young and can afford to be picky, I am likely to look for a man who earns as much as or more than me. At the very least, I want him to have the potential. Obviously, this does not mean that if I were to meet a great man who earned a bit less, I wouldn’t consider him. But all other things being equal, more pay > less pay
I earn enough to support the lifestyle I have grown to love. My husband earns more than me but has greater expenses (parents, other stuff). In terms of take home pay, this puts us on even footing. I didn’t marry him because of his income but because he is amazing. Would I still have married him if he made half of what I do? It’s easy to say yes now because I am head over heels but I guess the real question is, would I have given him a chance in the first place? Possibly not. Most people will see a double standard in this but it’s less about being unwilling to support my mate and more about standard of living. If things were to change so that he continued at his current income and mine doubled, I would have no problem with it. I would support him through further education if he decided that’s what he wanted to do. The standard of living we aspire to has been established and barring any major tragedies or big decisions, can be expected to stabilize or improve. We came together at a time when we were both self sufficient and there was no huge income disparity. What happens after this happens to us together and will be dealt with as it comes. Moral of the story is that it’s not “The End of Women” but just plain common sense
Marie 20
@Mickey, I’m also sorry to read you have had such negative experiences with women, and I also agree with what’s been posted about getting what you’re expecting. When you walk around with the attitude that women treat men like crap, then what you attract are women who treat men like crap. It’s up to you if you want to give up, but just like Evan teaches us women not to give up and that it only takes ONE good one, the same could be said for you. The thing is that you need to be at a place where you feel valuable as a man, and that you are equally able to see value in a woman.
Angry, bitter women tend to attract angry, bitter men. Or men who give them more reason to be angry and bitter. It’s only when a woman realizes that SHE is the common denominator in her problem and starts to work on HERSELF that she sees that it wasn’t men in general who were pricks, it was just the kind of men she was choosing!
Try going to an Alison Armstrong workshop. You’ll be surrounded by loving women who are committed to empowering the men in their lives.
Mickey 21
@Marie, you are quite right in everything you said. I’m also secure enough to admit that I lost hope in all this a very long time ago. Thus, I don’t put myself out there anymore. For better or worse, when you don’t expect anything, you can never be disappointed.
Karmic Equation 22
@Mickey
I know in speaking to some guy friends that women over the age of 40 without emotional baggage are hard to find. They tell me I’m the only one they’ve met like that. No baggage, no drama…just a good person who makes you happy to around her. I genuinely love men. Every man I meet, I look for the spirit of the little boy he used to be, the one who wanted to give an apple to the teacher he liked, before life and puberty happened to him. LOL. Basically I see men as overgrown boys with manly responsibilities and manly voices. Some are more responsible than others, but inside even the most responsible of men there is the spirit of that little boy. I learn to find and love that spirit. And men love me for recognizing and appreciating that part of them.
I would suggest expanding your interests and then look to join groups or go to places to experience those interests and have fun developing yourself and learning to enjoy your own company. When you are happy, you’ll be more open to what life has to offer. And you may find your gem. But giving up will ensure you never find her.
Good women without baggage or drama, who appreciate me, do exist. You just have to look harder for them in non-traditional places.
Be happy and good things happen.
Karmic Equation 23
@Peter
For the most part, women care less about a man’s looks than about his earning potential when it comes to LTRs. Probably an evolution psychology thing. Anyway, if a man earns an average wage and is average looking, he my not be prized by the prettier women, sad to say, because, again, evolution, either the guy has good genes or has to be a good provider. If you’re neither, it’s going to be harder for you to make the grade with the prettier women. If you go after the average woman, you’ll probably stand a chance, but likely average to you may be a “6 or 7″ when in fact you may need to go after 4s or 5s.
That said, in some blogs I’ve read, its been pointed out that when women decide to marry, they will often marry men who are not as good looking as they are. So it might just be a waiting game for you to find the woman that you may be looking for. You just have to wait until she’s ready for marriage.
************
Also, I typoed in #21, should read “…who appreciate MEN…” Sorry.
************
@Fiona 12
Doesn’t surprise me. The men you’re looking for: educated, good earners, well traveled, don’t need to get married. There are lots of women out there willing to give them what they want without marriage (although I’m sure they’re hoping for that). Your only hope to change these men’s minds is to be a unique woman they can’t get out of their minds. From your posts, though, you appear to be the typical woman (nothing wrong with that! — I’m speaking about emotionally/psychologically — not your achievements, unfortunately, men really don’t care as much about our achievements as we do) — but a *typical* older woman, no matter how beautiful (well maybe if you’re Raquel Welch you could), isn’t going to get that well-traveled, good earning, attractive alpha male down the aisle. If you were a typical *younger* woman you might have a shot, but not if you’re older. Maybe in fairy tales.
Mickey 24
@Karmic:
Admittedly, I’m too cynical well into middle age to believe that finding that special person is even possible anymore. That said, it’s not as if I go through every day perpetually dressed in black, either. I love my job, I love relaxing when I’m not working, and I enjoy going to ballgames and shooting pool. In that respect I think I’m reasonably normal.
Thus, I have no problem flying solo. I just don’t believe in trying to go for something that just isn’t there.
Joe 25
@ Karmic #23: Actually, from some of Fiona’s previous posts, it seems as though she feels her achievements entitle her to a man with similar achievements.
Fiona 26
Karmic, Joe,
I don’t feel “entitled” to anything. I do however know that I don’t like dating men who don’t have similar levels of achievement or ambition. I have been there and tried it and it isn’t for me. Beta men didn’t like my get up and go which they would try to stifle out of me and I didn’t like their lack of ambition which I knew I couldn’t change. I felt as though I constantly had to play the strong male role in the relationship when I wanted to play the softer female role to a stronger man and that is the crux of the issue not only for me but for a lot of my female peers who are going through the same thing.
As a 37 year old woman, it is now perfectly clear to me that what women look for in men is not what men look for in women and that the minority of men that are still single at my age who have a similar background to me are not generally looking for me. That is their prerogative. Unless I am lucky, I know that I am not now going to find a compatible partner. This is very hard to accept but if it isn’t meant to be then I just have to accept it.
Fusee 27
Hi Fiona @26,
You may not feel entitled but your attraction wiring is obviously not serving you and your life goals very well. You certainly can choose between your wish list as it now stands and staying single, but you have another choice and it would be the purposeful rewiring of your brain and heart to make yourself able to feel attracted and interested in a larger pool of the male population.
As Evan says, individual features do not only come in black and white options. They are many shades of ambition, accomplishment, etc. You might want a 8, 9, or 10 in ambition, and it might have to look like some specific level of education, type of job, income level, but thinking outside the box could be helpful in your situation even if this would require a lot of inner work. True ambition can look like an easy-going high school teacher that dedicates a large chuck of his free time to a volunteer group that he is passionate about supporting. Being accomplished can look like having completed a bachelor despite all kinds of hardships in youth. It can also look like the ability to balance life to perfection, despite not having reached “10″ in any area.
Again, like Evan says, I’m not telling you to give a chance to blue-collar men who are 20 years older than you and out of shape. I’m simply suggesting to work at making yourself more accepting of in-between people, and focus on finding someone who would be equally accepting of your non-traditional female qualities. How about placing Acceptance at the top of your requirement list for a change? Because what you offer and what you do not offer are going to be equally tough to accept from a man.
On the topic of education and accomplishment: it’s already hard for me to find “peers” at the age of 34 and only in the top 10% in education level… I can only imagine what it must be like for you being in the top 5% and 37 of age : ) Men like you simply do not exist or they are already paired up. Widen your pool, Fiona!
Good luck to you!
Fiona 28
Fusee, therein lies the problem. Men like me don’t exist or are paired up. I accept it. I did widen my pool and it hasn’t worked because truthfully in a relationship I want to step back and be a homemaker and not a breadwinner and most men appear to want that too.
marymary 29
Fiona, fusee
you got me thinking
The problem with the list is there isn’t a man or woman alive who will meet all requirements . That person exists only in the imagination. Everyone will fall short. And if by chance we do meet that one person in a thousand who does, and is single, and wants us, he or she will have some fatal flaw that makes them incapable of a relationship with anyone. Cos when we focus on education, looks, wealth, ambition, job, dress sense, cultural finesse, popularity, charm, achievement etc we miss what really counts. that stuff won’t help you when the baby is sick, or you get cancer, or when your parents are dying.
Also, I can’t imagine that two high achievers working seventy hours a week have got time for a relationship, never mind kids if that’s what they want. you couldnt even keep a dog without help. I don’t think male or female alphas want to go home and continue with the alpha . They want to kick back and relax. Relationships aren’t about wowing someone or impressing someone. It’s building love which takes time and comfort and compromise. can two high achievers do that? Job and education smarts are not relationship smarts and maybe they are even in conflict,
Thats not to say date someone useless and stupid but at least be comfortable that you’re choosing life time singledom for the right reasons.
and let’s not forget we aren’t perfect either, and even if we are, that state is temporary. a few years, tops.
Fiona 30
Marymary my only two requirements are be on a similar level as me and not be unattractive to me – that’s it.
As for two high achievers not being able to have relationships that is just nonsense. We don’t stop being human beings with feelings just because we worked hard at school and university and got decent jobs. Being successful at work is not incompatible with being emotionally intelligent either. There may be some high achievers who are emotionally unintelligent in the same way that there are also plenty of betas that are emotionally unintelligent. There is no correlation between intellect and emotional intelligence. In fact these days the most successful people are both intellectually and emotionally intelligent. I don’t see why so many people assume that high achievers are always in conflict either. It simply isn’t true. We aren’t in conflict at work for the most part so much as trying to reach consensus where there are differing viewpoints and we don’t for the most part want conflict in our friendships and relationships any more than anyone else does.
As a woman I can’t speak for alpha males but I assure you that most successful women I know do want to be with successful men. After all, we’re still women! Most of us don’t like working 70 hour weeks (although we will do it to support ourselves and provide as good a lifestyle as we can afford to compensate for being single). I have observed that among the high achievers of my friends who married other high achievers, when children come along, the woman usually gives up work completely or substantially reduces work to look after the children because they want to. There are of course exceptions that want to have the career over the family but that is really the exception. It is not the rule. I would want to do the same. I would not want to be forced out to work all hours because I am the higher earner while the man gets to play the female role. I do not want to be a man any more than a beta woman does.
You are right that success at work does not mean that someone is going to be a great support when someone has cancer etc. However lack of success at work doesn’t mean that they will be any better because one really has nothing to do with the other.
So in conclusion, I think that high achieving women are getting tired of being told to settle for a man that is not high achieving because a) we relate better to men from similar backgrounds which shouldn’t be a big surprise to anyone as we have similar experiences and outlook of life and b) we don’t usually want to take on a traditional male role in a relationship.
Obviously it goes without saying that relationships are based on kindness and caring but I have tried dating beta men and I didn’t find that they were any more kind or caring which is not a big surprise to me because I don’t believe those qualities are solely attributable to non-high achievers.
Joe 31
Fusee isn’t asking you to settle for a man who isn’t as high-achieving. She’s telling you to be more accepting of men who aren’t as high-achieving in the area you are high-achieving. She’s saying: if you’re a high-powered attorney, your man shouldn’t need to also be a high-powered attorney; he could be an auto mechanic who is a champion swing dancer outside of work. I guess in a nutshell it’s this: don’t turn up your nose at someone else’s achievements just because they don’t match your achievements.
Fiona 32
I don’t think Fusee is saying that either. Lawyers and auto mechanies are not a fit – this is surely common sense.
Fusee 33
@Joe #31 and Fiona # 32: Auto mechanic + lawyer = why not? ; )
Well, I was indeed not encouraging such an unlikely pairing. Maybe more someone like an excellent computer programmer able to make 100+K while also being quite accomplished in something outside of his trade.
Anyway. Fiona, I think your problem is that you’ve simply been too fortunate in life. I’m happy for you but it’s a blessing and a curse at the same time. You’ve got access to very high education and had the drive, intelligence, and opportunities to make an excellent career and a well above-average living for yourself. Congratulations! But now you would like a man to take over and provide that lifestyle to you and your children. It would work out just fine if you could be satisfied with a 100K kind of guy, but it does not look like it will be enough to match your current status and lifestyle.
I understand that you do not want to be the man in the relationship, but by becoming a very high-achiever you became the man of your own relationship with yourself. Now, wanting someone “at your very high level” means eliminating 95% of the population while it does not even make sense since you explain wanting to stay home with your kids once you have them. At that point it would not matter to be with “another attorney” since you will not be one any longer. Sure, you want to be able to relate with someone at a compatible intellectual level. For that you sure need someone relatively educated, but a Bachelor’s coupled with some good critical thinking skills and an interest in what’s going on in the world is plenty.
If you grew accustomed to an extremely high-income lifestyle thanks to your own achievement, it’s awesome. But it’s only fair to either decrease your needs in order to allow a “normal high-income” man to take care of you with his 100-150K/year, or continue working – maybe even just part-time – to supplement the family income and maintain your extremely high-income lifestyle.
To some degree I can relate to your desires and needs, but I gravitate at a lower level and allows men to be slightly below my own accomplishments. It makes things so much easier on me and on men. If I were to have children I would also want to raise them at home, at least for the first few years of their lives. I would therefore need my husband to support a whole family, and for that he would have to be a high-earner so that we could live decently on his income. The difference with you is that I did not grow accustomed to a really expensive lifestyle. A man would not have to make half a million dollars to support me and our two kids. A solid 100-150K would do just fine. Surprise surprise: my boyfriend is totally on board with such scenario, and it has even an encouraging effect on him to seek better employement opportunities. Everybody wins: the man is the man, and the woman is the woman. But he does not have to face the grueling prospect of having to over-achieve to pay for unnecessary massages, facials, and expensive clothes.
In terms of accomplishments, I’m more excited by his willingness and ability to build a great relationship with me than by his degrees. A Master’s and solid work ethics are good enough : ) Fiona, I’d suggest you stop longing for what your other high-achiever friends have. They got hitched when they were younger and they contributed to their husband’s success. You’re at a different place and it requires some flexibility. There really is no need for you to be single.
K 34
@Fiona I’m right with you. Being a lawyer myself I understand what you are saying.
Fiona 35
Fusee I don’t disageee what you say. I would be happy with someone with a university degree and a half decent salary. I am not looking for a CEO on half a million. However, these men seem to very thin on the ground.
K 36
@Fusee, I agree with you on many points. I like Fiona also am not looking for a 500k CEO. At this point I may only have one child and I’d like to be married to someone who could have reasonable time to spend with the family. When I was growing up with very little money and a poor grad student, the last thing I was thinking of was where my success would take me in the dating world (or not take me). If I was with a very high achieving spouse I would love to stay home with our children for a few years. Unfortunately where I live a 100k definitely does not allow that. I have chosen a high earning, but flexible and family friendly job within my field. As such if someone earned about 100k we could afford a home and child care and I’d be more than happy with that. A bachelor’s degree is totally fine with me. I’m more about having drive and ambition than a fancy degree. The last few men I really liked were actually in sales and did not have a graduate degree like myself. I can also do my job nearly anywhere, so if the right person would come along I’d be happy to move to a less expensive place where our money would go further. So looking for love outside my city and up to 10 years older is how I’m being flexible. Dating a teacher with a heart of gold likely would only be a suitable pairing in a Lifetime movie (at least for me).
marymary 37
At 37 I was dating a lawyer and a part time model. women were constantly throwing themselves at him. But he encouraged them too. I learned that looks and status are not so important to me as integrity, fidelity, character.
the current beau earns a decent living but is not wealthy, and is attractive but probably not model material. He also enjoys public speaking, is somewhat admired by men of all ages for his ability to graciously assert himself in debates, is funny, intelligent though possibly not as well educated as i am. i havent bothered to find out what he achieved in the education sphere but i recognise his curiosity, maturity and presence of mind. he is very kind, and protective of me. It,s not the case that he has to be high status to be the man. I don’t see that I have settled by going from model lawyer to who I have now.
he is not my normal type but my type was not helping me at all.
l gotta add that he is tall and sporty so my compromising wasn’t exactly a hardship. I’m not saying date someone you can’t respect, just be more flexible.
and tis true, many of the high achieving men I know who were minded to marry met their wives at university. I work in the city of London though, so it may be a uk thing.
Fiona 38
Marymary you don’t explain what it is that you do but you can’t base your views on an entire profession on one individual. As a UK lawyer that spent years in London myself it is not unreasonable for me to be interested in dating other lawyers. I think that your experience is unfortunate but atypical. I don’t know any lawyers that have the time to be part time models. I would suggest that dating male models is in any event unwise.
Henriette 39
Question for all you ladies who want to someday stay home with kids but not take a hit to your lifestyle: why not make sure you save and invest a large portion of your income, now? That way, 1) your lifestyle isn’t so grand that a guy has to make huge bucks to keep you at the same level 2) your savings will be able to supplement what he earns. If you want to stay home for 10 years and need a household income of $150K minimum to do so, having $500K stashed away would allow you to widen your search to include guys who earn $100K…
As an aside, in my experience, guys who earn big bucks aren’t always great at saving big bucks. A friend thought she’d hit the jackpot when she wed a mid-40s man who earns about $500k/ year: was sure he’d have at least a million or two or tucked away. She wasn’t happy to learn that years of living a fun bachelor lifestyle – renting cool apartments, drinking fine wines, holidaying in 5* hotels – had left him with a few $100K and no real estate holdings.
Joe 40
I don’t get why a lawyer and an auto mechanic would necessarily be an unlikely pairing. Being a mechanic doesn’t make someone stupid.
Besides, since you’re a lawyer, you should know how much time lawyers spend on the job.
Sounds to me like it all boils down to MONEY…
Mickey 41
I’ve seen professional guys cut down at the knees also. So, I’m disinclined to believe
that what a guy does for a living is relevant in the current man-hating culture.
P.S. I’m a law school graduate, also.
Fiona 42
Joe, that is not entirely true. While earning potential is important to some degree and it is no use pretending otherwise what it all really boils down to having something in common and whatever people say about that being irrelevant, it does actually matter, at least to me. I would rather spend my time with someone who understands what I am talking about and likes doing the same type of things. Maybe there is an opera loving bookwork mechanic out there that likes going to museums on the one hand and skiing on the other but I haven’t met any.
Mickey, no idea why you are having so much trouble but find it hard to believe that being a law graduate is the issue.
Mickey 43
Fiona:
I’m not at all suggesting that being a law graduate is the problem. I’m only saying that based on what I’ve seen (and experienced), one’s occupation is hardly the problem. Politically correct male bashing is the problem.
marymary 44
fiona
i don’t feel unfortunate. I met someone ten times better.
good luck with finding the opera afficianado, high income, attractive, museum loving, top five percent educated, alpha ski-er who is also caring and loving.
Fiona 45
marymary, I clearly meant that your experience with the lawyer was unfortunate as opposed to normal lawyer behaviour. Great that you have found someone that you are happy with. My point was that I don’t need someone to share all my interests – I do need someone to share some of them. Being loving and caring is not enough in itself if that person is not even close to being on the same wavelength. I’m intelligent, I have no desire to be with a man who isn’t. This is no more than common sense but some people just like to take the unrealistic moral high ground for the sake of it.
marymary 46
Fiona
im not stalking you but your dilemma is not uncommon so it’s worth some examination. I think most dating coaches, including our dear
Evan, say the same. ditch the list, or at least revise it.
you yourself state the man you want may not exist. many here agree. We suggest widening the pool. you’re not keen. We share that we have met non alphas who turned out to be better than the alphas but that is not for you either.
so what are you going to do?
it’s not so gloomy. When you meet the right person they may not tick all the boxes but they will very very likely have other qualities that more than compensate. things not even on our radar. that,s the surprise and wonder of love.
as for loving and caring,that’s possibly something to bump way up the list. it seems rarer and more valuable than intelligence, to me anyway.
as for the moral high ground I have been in relationships that burnt up my youth and one that almost left me dead. it’s not for nothing if I can warn off others. But yeah I expect it’s irritating to hear.
just my tuppence
Fiona 47
Marymary, where I fail to see your logic or anyone else’s is that people who don’t achieve are more loving and caring. That simply isn’t true. There are plenty of non-achieving abusers and wife beaters so we have to drop the pretence that all the non-achievers are really nice – they aren’t and the chances of a non-achiever and an achiever being nice are pretty equal. There are just less achievers out there – that is all.
henriette 48
Fiona, I certainly have found that the percentage of high-earners who are nice is equal to – if not greater than – the percentage of low-achievers who are nice. I agree with you that it’s stuff & nonsense to imagine that a man will necessarily be kinder just because he earns less money.
However, as you point out, there are far fewer high-achievers “out there” so that stacks the deck. Add to that, the fact that this relatively small number of men who are nice, high-achieving and not-yet-married tend to have their choice of an almost endless supply of women. And among the numerous (albeit statistically insignificant number of) men that I know who fit this criteria, none cares about being with a woman who is has reached great heights in her career. Generally, these guys want slim, easy-going, young, good-looking-enough that they can be sure other men in the room will be jealous, athletic, happy girlfriends. These men I know don’t give a rat’s a$$ if she’s his intellectual equal; they don’t want stupid but most of them get enough brain stimulation elsewhere that they want to kick back, relax and not think too hard in their romantic lives. And if anything, having a “serious” job will be a mark against her as it means she’ll be less available to fit into his jam-packed schedule.
Trust me, many of us women posting here empathise with you and I certainly don’t want to dismiss your dreams and/or concerns. However, know that the “numbers game” is not stacked in your (our) favour and adjust your expectations, if not your desires, accordingly. If it came down to remaining single forever or falling in love an opera-loving, bookworm professor who earns $85k/annum, which would you pick? There’s no “right” answer.
marymary 49
thanks henriette you put it better than I did.
another option is to consider the older divorced men with kids. younger women may not want that responsibility.
friend of mine married a mega achiever. He gets driven to his London office in a limo. He was divorced with with one child when they met. They’ve gone on to have children of their own. They have homes in several countries. He’s also a little overweight, older and losing his hair. Heck, i know men in their twenties losing theirs. she is very happy.
female partner I know in an amlaw one hundred firm is indeed married to a university professor.
it,s about flexibility. no one is saying date a loser cos he,ll be nicer. If i gave that impression i certainly didn’t mean to. I’m not saying intelligence is not important either. I tend to take that for granted in the circles i move in. Kind and caring I certainly do not.
Fiona 50
Henriette, I have nothing against professors if they are in my age range. I don’t meet many though. The way I see it there is either an intellectual equal out there for me or there isn’t. If it is meant to be, it will be. If it isn’t, it won’t. I am not going to compromise on the things that really do matter to me just because I’ll end up alone if I don’t because being alone, painful as it is, is infinitely preferable to me that being with someone who I can’t relate to. My experience to date has been that unintelligent men appreciate me less than intelligent men anyway, not vice versa. They will try it on because I’m blonde and I have a glamour model type figure but long lasting relationships aren’t built on men’s lust. Better actually have some things in common.
Barry 51
Fiona, there are men out there who are intelligent, charismatic and interested in the arts. They just may not have a high salary.
This really is just about the money.
Its like men only going out with women with large breasts, because that’s what they are attracted to. I do not know too many men like that because probably they are aware that irrespective of their desires, it drastically limits their choices.
In addition such women may well be in high demand from the men you are interested in, so chances of rejection are high.
Its a shame that your unrealistic expectations will result in you remaining single, and effectively a great man losing out.
Henriette 52
@Barry51, Fiona stated that she would be happy with a professor who earns $85K and is looking for an intellectual equal so I don’t think it’s fair to say that her choices are “just about the money.”
Joe 53
What about a(n adjunct) prof who only makes $50k?
K 54
@joe I was previously an adjunct professor. Typically they teach in addition to their profession. So not the best example. Someone who makes 50k in a very pricey city likely wouldn’t have a lot in common with me. Even if I wanted to date a guy who made that likely they wouldn’t want to date me as I think in my social circle we tend to engage in pricier adtivities.
marymary 55
Fiona
as a lawyer you must be constantly invited to networking and marketing events. Dont just delete. Go. Even if its outside your field. Especially if it,s outside your field. Widen the net. Get there early. ride up and down the lift and smile at everyone who gets in. When you’re there, chat to everyone. Including the men.
next time you’re picking up your cpd points, do the same. Get there early etc.
choose venues in buildings with multiple law firms.
offer to speak when your firm is hosting. Look pretty afterwards and wait for the men to tell you how much they enjoyed your presentation.
man the stand at next exhibition. Hand out the freebies. And your business card.
Go to the lunchtime talks at the City churches. Only churches ive been to where men out number the women.
It,s coming up to Christmas, law firms are throwing open their doors. Free drinks.
a certain City law firm just outside the magic circle that’s big in intellectual property hosts a famous annual drinks party. Wangle an invite. Those IP lawyers are seriously smart and a bit geeky. So not so slick with the women and many still single.
be approachable. Smile. not many men, even the super high achievers want to approach a beautiful woman who looks as though she will knock him back.
I had to date a committed evangelical christian who isnt nutty, that was my requirement. an even smaller pool than the intelligent I think. I gave up too but then I met someone.
good luck.
Fiona 56
Joe, these questions are largely irrelevant as people aren’t paid in dollars in Great Britain and the cost of iiving is very different. That would not be a great amount for an educated person to be earning here and you certainly couldn’t support a family on it so I’d have to assume that such a man wasn’t too bothered about having a family because he hasn’t made much of an effort to put himself in a position to be able to support one.
Fiona 57
Thanks Mary. I don’t work for a law firm but have spent the last year working in-house for the same multinational that I was working for in Switzerland previously so I work from home which makes it all rather tricky to meet people. I am pretty active on the social circuit but haven’t been too impressed with what I have seen in the South West. Lots of great women…I am going to be travelling for most of December in Asia so I have more or less decided not to torture myself thinking about relationships until 2013.
Mickey 58
What is so wrong with a guy enjoying what he does for a living, but his job might not be as lucrative as others?
Fiona 59
Absolutely nothing so long as he isn’t looking for someone like me to subsidise his life. I don’t love what I do for a living but I do it because I’m a financially responsible grown up.
Mickey 60
Fiona:
Therein lies the problem: the presumption that a guy is looking for a woman to subsidize his lifestyle. This in turn, seems to suggest that as soon as a woman disapproves if what a guy does for a living, he’s immediately out of the running as a potential dating prospect. This is just one more reason most guys don’t have a prayer when it comes to meeting women.
Believe it or not, there are plenty of guys, myself included, who are educated professionals who enjoy what they do for a living, AND are self-supporting. Contrary to popular belief, not all guys are video game playing, beer-swilling frat boys.
Fiona 61
Mickey, I don’t really see the logic. Surely there are plenty of women with similar jobs, lifestyles and aspirations for men at every level of the career ladder? Why would a guy with a laid back job that is happy with a simple life want to date a lawyer anyway? I don’t get it. We tend to be strivers rather than easygoing and outside of work I am more the sort of person that wants to get out and do and see things rather than stay in. I’d drive a laid back guy nuts and vice versa and I know it because I’ve tried it and it didn’t work.
Mickey 62
Really, who are we aspiring to date, the person or the job?
Barry 63
I am an educated professional with my own business.
Although meeting her requirements on assets, income and intelligence, (and yes I ski too), I would no doubt be rejected by Fiona because of our age difference (despite the fact I date women far younger than her).
I am not the slightest bit attracted to women who aspire to a better lifestyle, or want to use me to maintain their current one while they give up work.
My heart sinks every time I hear yet another cunningly worded question designed to ascertain my net worth.
Yes, the place to meet single people of a certain intelligence and potential is at University. That door has closed.
Not all those with higher education are high achievers. If a man is divorced, he is probably going to be poor irrespective of the job he does.
There are “experts” out there suggesting that you draw up a list of the characteristics desired in a partner. I think that is a waste of time unless it looks like this:
1. Does he have a pulse
2. See 1.
Fiona 64
Mickey, I have tried to explain as best I can why I prefer men that are similar. I appreciate that some men won’t like it but I am not hurting them in any way and there are tons of single women out there looking for relationships so it really shouldn’t be that difficult for men to find women similar to themselves.
Barry, pleased to hear that you’ll date anything with a pulse! I will wager that over 99% of people (men and women) are more discerning than that. I think you misunderstand the whole using men to give up work thing. If I don’t have kids, I don’t plan to stop working. If I did, I would think it a better start in life for a child to have a mother at home for the first few years if at all possible. I don’t see how that is using men so much as trying to be a good parent. I would have thought that you were at a much higher risk of being ‘used’ by women that don’t have much earning potential than those that do which is possibly why you claim that you have plenty of much younger women looking to date you. I don’t need to be rescued by anyone, much less a man in a different generation.
Tom10 65
Fiona
“I would think it a better start in life for a child to have a mother at home for the first few years if at all possible…trying to be a good parent”
I agree somewhat, however, what about the possibility of the father staying at home for the first few years to look after your children with you as the main earner? It would expand your list of potential partners to include educated men who don’t earn much. Could this be a possibility?
My boss is a very educated man but his earnings have dropped from about 500k annually to about 50k with the collapse in the economy in recent years.
Barry 66
Fiona
“Surely there are plenty of women with similar jobs, lifestyles and aspirations for men at every level of the career ladder”
You are projecting.
It hasn’t sunk in yet. Men are not interested in women with similar lifestyles etc. That is what you think men should want. They do not.
A young, hot, friendly waitress is going to have the same earning capacity as you, if you give up work to look after children.
The difference is that all her positive assets are retained when she does so.
You are invisible to the tall dark handsome rich men. You reject the men that would be interested in you. The poor man cannot become richer and the older man cannot become younger.
You have essentially removed yourself from the dating pool.
Even if you were able to attract the man of your dreams, when you gave up work, he would be out working long hours.
He could be spending a great deal of time surrounded by women at work who also consider him to be the man of their dreams.
Except they are half your age. Do you think a ring will hold them back ?
Be careful what you wish for.
Fiona 67
Tom, this is the issue. I would resent a man that played mum at home while I was forced to play dad at work and the same would apply vice versa I am sure. Plus at my age frankly I do not expect that springing straight out of the maternity ward to the office would be realistic. Better for the one that doesn’t go through child birth and breast feeding to be the one that is back at work a few days later.
Barry, my advice to Mickey was simply that if he pursues women the same age at a similar level he will find someone because women prefer peers in pretty much every respect. That’s all I was saying. Not sure why it bothers youI do get that my male peers are probably not going to be interested in me any more for the most part but I’ll live.
So I will simply sign off by wishing you luck with the hot, friendly, waitress because I have never heard of such a woman ever losing her assets. I hear they never age, get fat, and that they are much cheaper to divorce than professional women because they have better earning potential…or perhaps not.
K 68
To add to the man staying at home issue, I haven’t seen much success with this. Yes there are men who want to do this, I just don’t know many. The men I know tend to put a lot of stock in their career identity. Lots of women to do too, but a lot of women like myself are okay with pulling back in their careers (choosing a more family friendly profession, working part-time or taking time off) without resenting their husbands. I have a co-worker whose husband is a teacher and agreed to be a stay at home dad. He did not like that role and now works part-time. As such they need a nanny now and as she is the bread winner can’t switch places with him. They also had to downgrade their home and move to a less desirable neighborhood. That is fine for now, but likely will be more of a struggle when they need to pay for a private school for their child. Being married to a much more successful woman is hard for many men as is being the stay at home dad. This is why it helps do be married someone around the same professional level.
Fiona 69
It would be interesting to know if anyone has experience of a stay at home Dad where he gave up work because his wife earned more and it did work out. I don’t personally know of any cases but from what I have read on the side of the pond women in that situation seem to be very unhappy and the men seem to feel emasculated.
Tom10 70
Fiona,
I suppose I meant to look at it as a temporary situation as part of a long-term partnership and strategy. Although a man mightn’t earn much now, he might earn a lot over the course of the relationship. You might have to pick up the slack now, but in ten years he might be in a position to reciprocate (if you got ill for example).
I say that because I work in a volatile industry where one’s earnings can dramatically fluctuate depending on external factors, therefore it would be imprudent of someone to judge me on my current wage.
I.e. as long as your goals and values align (e.g. importance of education, which I agree with you on) it might prove beneficial to be flexible on other things (salary) as a man can lose his job / earning capacity but will be unlikely to ever change his character.
Just a thought.
Frimmel 71
K at #68.
So he can’t find a full time job that would allow the Mom to stay at home? It seems to me that she made more in the first place which is why he even had the option to be a stay at home parent. And now with him working aren’t they ahead even with paying the nanny? He couldn’t find a part-time job that didn’t cause them to require a nanny? Did he stop doing the housework when he got his part-time job?
Sounds more like the problem is she didn’t want to keep working in the first place than he wanted a part-time job after being a homemaker for awhile.
K 72
@Frimmel. Maybe I wasn’t clear. The mom has always worked full time. She makes much much more than the husband and will continue to work. There wasn’t an option for her to stay at home. He chose to stay at home originally, but did not enjoy that role. He now works part-time so that he can enjoy his career again. His job as a teacher full time would not cover the salary of a nanny. Part-time certainly does not. They are in their 40s. I don’t think its feasible for him to find a new career that pays much more nor is he likely interested in it.
Joe 73
“when they need to pay for a private school?”
Frimmel 74
Well then he needs to suck it up and get in the kitchen and make his wife a sandwich. He needs to hold up his end of the bargain till the child(ren) don’t need a nanny or they have to find a cheaper nanny or Mom will just have to put in more hours to make the extra dough so she can subsidize his career and still have all the other things she ‘needs.’ She isn’t the first man to not get the wife he thought he was getting.
Lia 75
@ Marie #20 Yes, yes, yes!!! You attract what you focus on!!!
I have read some of the posts and several post from men accusing women of man bashing. Having been guilty of that in the past I can see their point…
I have a rather smart, sarcastic wit. Smart ass comments just seem to formulate inside my head and pop out my mouth without any effort and at lightning speed. The fact that I found my comments rather funny was compounded by the fact that my sisters and friends thought I was hilarious. It is rather satisfying when your every comment is met with laughter.
The target of most of these comments have been men, both specific men and men in general (making fun of myself has come in second). Even though I didn’t make these comments directly to, or in front of men – I realized one day that how I saw men was affected by this unflattering, sarcastic humor. I was seeing men through a cloud of distain. I decided to get off the smug drug and quit putting down men.
It was tough to quit, believe me. At first it was like trying to stop a runaway freight train with a tissue. The jokes just flew out of my mouth before I could catch them and I would have to retract my words and say what I wanted to feel about men, even if I didn’t feel it right then. Eventually I found that I could stop the comments before they left my mouth or mid sentence. That part of me that is a word junkie was going into serious withdraws.
Now when those negative thoughts come up I don’t see them as funny (Okay there are still some that make me smile a bit, but acknowledge to myself that they are not true.) I don’t give voice to these thoughts and they are losing their power over me. I voice instead the good things I see in men. While this may not make me look witty or funny it does make me feel so much better toward men.
The really cool thing in all of this is that when I started looking for the good in men I found all sorts of things. I even took a look into past relationships and started remembering things that I am grateful for now that I wasn’t grateful for then. Men from my past went from pricks and assholes (sorry about the crude language) to amazing worthwhile men. Not all of them of course, but even the one who cheated on me and the one who left me to raise our disabled daughter on my own I can now see with compassion and the anger is gone.
Does any of this affect the men from my past or the men around me? NO, but it does affect me. Instead of running past hurts and betrayals through that little cinema in my mind I play scenes of when a man was there for me, when a man did something good and kind.
When I think of men in general I can list many great and admirable qualities. I am a big fan of men and good thoughts about them pop into my head with the same regularity that the other thoughts use to. I didn’t wait until I met a man who I felt “deserved” respect and admiration before I did this I did this and now see things in men that I respect and admire.
When I get a critical thought I don’t believe it Instead, I look at it and wonder what button of mine is being pushed. Wonder is a powerful thing. It is unexamined thoughts and beliefs that keep us trapped where we are.