5 Ways to Make Him Fall in Love with You

Let’s start here: if you have a selfish, abusive, lying, slacker boyfriend, dump him now. But if you have a good – albeit imperfect – man, here are 5 ways to bring out the best in him – and get the love you deserve.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Carla

    Yes we concentrate too much on  “what did I do for him to ghost?” vs “is this the type of man I want that after all this investment cannot go further?!!!!!!!!”

    Yes! Yes! Yes!  Eureka. That is how excited I am over this new found enlightenment!  Thanks Again Evan. Lay it straight!

  2. 2
    meg

    Is there a transcript of the podcast for those who need accommodation?

  3. 3
    Persephone

    Maybe it’s the messed up Southern culture I live in, but in my observation, Evan, it seems to me that the woman you said don’t be like are the ones that get the best men to stay with them.

    I’m the kind of woman you said to be like, and yet men to seem to think that I’m not enough challenge for them. I can’t help it, it’s my nature to be nice,  and hard as I try to be a bitch it just won’t happen for me.

    Birds of a feather flock together, and many of my girlfriends are also very sweet and giving.  We have collectively come to the conclusion that men really don’t want women like that. It seems the ones that scream at their husband cuz they’re not washing the pan correctly are the ones that men want. They cheat on or dump us nice  “yes” women.

    I’ve been at group gatherings and watch the lucky women just totally excoriate their man because they didn’t help set the table correctly, with the knife on the wrong side of the plate or something. They’re good men, too, with a lot of skills and money to go with their construction business that they own, or their catfish farms that bring in a lot of money and give the woman a good lifestyle.

    But as for we nice women who say yes, and who don’t criticize sincere efforts at helping wash dishes, and who accept men for who they are? We get told by the man we thought was the love of our life that while we are the best woman they ever met, and the easiest going, and a really decent human being, that man doesn’t love us enough to marry us. They love us enough to wake up the next morning in our beds with their sunny smile, maybe put that dog kennel together on Saturday morning for us, thank us profusely for that wonderful steak we grilled out for them on Friday night, and help throw away the handful of beer bottles they left on our front porch last night, dutifully carrying out the garbage bag afterward. But it ends there.

    In the end, we finally get told  that they really don’t want anything permanent with us. That we were incredibly sweet, and a really good woman, but they just don’t feel anything deep enough beyond that, and so will not marry us. They want the women with three bratty kids with constant noses that need wiped because they’re crying all the time. And the woman that tells them they’re setting the table all wrong.

    Yes, it really hurts. Really bad. When we were the kind sweet girlfriend, someone who is very giving, it’s confusing to us when instead, they want the bitch who is a challenge, and who demands a 10,000 dollar engagement ring. I am totally confused by your podcast, because my observations don’t seem to match up with your video. All the good men seem to want a woman who will slap him around (literally!)  and keep them in line with her sharp abusive tongue, and her further demands for more money. The nice ones that you described in the video are who we are. It seems we’re usually the losers in this game.

    Then, after a decade of marriage, the guys will sit around and drink beer together at the catfish fry while the women go to the kitchen.  These men talk about how “she’s changed.” And they secretly discuss about how they wish they had stuck with that other girl years ago that they dumped to get this one, who demanded the house with the mortgage that was too much for them to handle. No, Evan, the bitches get the guy, not the nice girls that you described in the video. It’s a real head-scratcher for me.

    1. 3.1
      H.

      It is not some “Southern cukture”, Persephone, although it certainly IS messed up.  I’ve seen what you are saying all over Europe, all over the Americas, so I think it’s safe to say it is a more general trait.

      It is only a theory, but based on extensive observation I THINK  it’s because many (such) men who were raised by bossy mothers associate womanhood and, especially,”wifehood” (perhaps even love) with being bossed around. Mummy bossed them around, sure, it wasn’t pleasant at the time, BUT she made sure they were well fed, warm, and safe.

      Whatever the reason, I certainly agree with John, and I think that such men aren’t worth the trouble – certainly not to a self-respecting human who is not after money and bling.

      The problem, of course, is that there is an awful, awful lot of such damaged men.

       

       

  4. 4
    Stacy

    Evan,

    This is really good stuff.

  5. 5
    Persephone

    There’s a lot of women that do the kind of things you’re recommending, Evan. And there’s a lot of women that do the things you say they’re doing wrong in this video. My observation is that men want the women who are more of a challenge. If a woman does like you’re recommending, the men seem to say that they’re the best woman’s they’ve ever met, really good people, but they don’t love them enough for marriage. The women that do like you suggest are not enough challenge to keep their men, who get bored.

    Evan, can you please tell us what it is about the male brain that makes them like this? I can’t seem to find a man that wants the things you tell us that they want in this podcast.

    Sorry, but my observation, I’d really like to see how people respond to my comment.

  6. 6
    John

    Persephone

    What kind of man do you want? Most men who are masculine (unless you like feminine guys) like women who are feminine, flexible, giving and don’t try to compete with us. Guys who like women who are bitches are weak men. Real men do not put up with that crap.

    Most men I see today are weak and let their gfs walk all over them. It is pathetic to watch. You don’t want to be with a guy who let’s you treat him like a punk. Be grateful you are not a woman who naturally wants to dominate men. The problem for you if you are a naturally sweet and feminine woman is that men won’t know how to treat you like a woman and women will hate you for knowing how to be a feminine woman. I encourage to stay true to who you are.

    1. 6.1
      Persephone

      John, thank you, Precious.

    2. 6.2
      Sum Guy

      John, I agree 100%

      Ill add that being that nice nuturing woman does not mean you have to be a shrinking violet in on-line dating.

      You can send the first message to a man, it need be nothing more than I like your picture (better yet if you can connect to one of his true him aspects) but a nice comment is enough.  It’s not depriving a confident man of masculine energy. In fact, the way these sites work you may never have crossed his radar.  If  he’s interested and not “taken” he’ll get back to you.

  7. 7
    Yet Another Guy

    @Persephone

    I can assure you that this power imbalance did not exist when these men and women were courting.  Men who endure being emasculated by the women in their lives are worried about losing something that they consider to be precious.  Women who emasculate men are experts at finding a man’s weak spot and exploiting it.  You do not want to be one of these women because a man eventually grows tired of being emasculated and starts planning his exit.  For a lot of men, the commitment they have to their children is often the thing that binds them to an emasculating woman.  Children do not remain children forever.  That is why you see a large number of these marriages dissolve when the children reach high school or college age.  These women will often attempt to maintain control when the man is exiting stage right, but are hit by the reality that he could care less what his soon-to-be ex thinks.  He is finally free to reclaim his man card.

    1. 7.1
      Persephone

      Oh, come on, Another nice guy. You seem like a nice guy but my question to you is why did the man throw away the nice girl and get the one that everybody could clearly see was a controlling bitch? The bitches are the ones that end up marrying these great guys. Everyone can see their bitches before they get married, and everyone else is watching from the side while the decent man dumps the sweet gal, to go after the bad girl who does everything in the video Evan says that we women should not do to make a man fall in love with us. But the men are falling in love with them!!!!! This is simply not right and I want answers now! < as I stomp my feet>

      By the way, after a full year of dating, my confirmed Bachelor boyfriend told me he loved me today. Hahaha. He’s already well into his thirties and then some. The only way he’ll marry is with a crazy bitch who will make his life miserable. I can see the writing on the wall.

        1. Persephone

          That’s a positive book. That book is recommending being the kind of bitch we should all be, not the horrible kind of bitch I’m talking about. It also discusses some of the kind of tactics that Evan tells us we should be doing.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          I am absolutely certain that the women to whom your are referring did not act that way when the couple first met.  No man chases a woman who is truly a bitch unless he has horribly low self-esteem.  Nine times out of ten, a woman who can get away with treating a man poorly has something that keeps him in place.  Some women are actually that good in bed (like men, not all women are created equal in that department), but most of the time it has to do with money and/or children.  It becomes increasingly difficult to for man to love a woman who is treating him like dirt.

        3. Persephone

          Yet Another Guy, you are denying things I see with my own eyes.  My question was based on the premise of marrying the one who treated them poorly, while dumping the good ones.  You are telling me, “I am absolutely certain that the women to whom your are referring did not act that way when the couple first met.  No man chases a woman who is truly a bitch unless he has horribly low self-esteem.”  What makes you so absolutely certain when I am seeing this mess with my own eyes?   These are men with construction businesses, or something that indicates they are not low-esteem losers.  I am telling you that I watch this phenomenon happen. 

      1. 7.1.2
        Sum Guy

        Hi Persephone,

        try not to make it a self fulfilling prophecy.   That’s a real danger.

        From a guys point of views it the same thing as why do beautiful girls fall for a**holes.

        Just to be a pop psychologist for a moment, maybe they grew up in a dysfunctional family and what feels safe to them is needless drama.

        Maybe these women are really hot to these guys and they lure them in with the sex bombing.

        I really don’t know.  But I do believe that there are good men out there who would love to find a non-crazy nice woman.  Think this site is all about that, finding them n keeping them.

        1. Christine

          I fell for those a-holes before.  At least in my case, I really wasn’t seeking an a-hole–and really thought I was with a good guy at the time (at least, temporarily).  These men were a-holes but they weren’t stupid either.  They didn’t start with bad behavior right away. They knew if they behaved badly on date 1, there wouldn’t be date 2.  They wore “good guy” disguises very well, for a while.

          Even during the bad relationship, these guys often throw just enough good behavior into the mix, to keep women holding on to false hope that things can get better.  For instance, even Ike Turner gave Tina gifts after every beating (sounds like her closet was full of apology gifts).  These men weren’t a-holes at all times, more like 50% of the time (then that percentage increased)

          Thankfully I eventually saw the light and went on to marry a good one!

  8. 8
    Yet Another Guy

    While a man who does not make any decisions in his marriage does appear to be another child, it almost never starts out that way.   A lot of men relinquish control because every decision that they make is either vetoed outright or met with resistance.  It is amazing how some women want to have veto power over the tiniest decisions.  If a man makes a decision that results in a less than desired outcome, the woman in his life often never lets him forget about it.   Sooner or later, he reaches a point where he says, “Fuck it, she can make all of the decisions.  I want to be able to sleep at night.”

    1. 8.1
      Persephone

      Yet another guy, you are so correct!!!! Some of these women really need to get over themselves and appreciate the good men they have. But then why did these men throw away the nice girl they were dating for the woman who is a “challenge”?

      1. 8.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        Being successful in business does not automatically translate to having high self-esteem when it comes to women.  I can show you a metric truck load of guys in Silicon Valley whose net worth dwarfs that of the guys you know, and they have horrible self-esteem when it comes to women.

        1. Persephone

          The problem here is that you are not accepting the facts as I have presented them.  Don’t go changing the facts.  You are basically calling me a liar about the facts as I presented them. I asked for discussion on why CONFIDENT men choose the women that Evan says not to be like.  I did not ask for discussion as to whether my facts were correct. I know these men, and that they are confident.

          Some weasel plugging away at a keyboard in Silicon Valley with a high net worth does necessarily have self-confidence.  In general, the  personality type is different than the socially confident guys I am referring to. Maybe it’s not fair to call a guy like this a weasel, but tech guys have a reputation of being socially inept, wearing dark t-shirts with pentagrams on them, and having odd piercings while they listen to death metal.  Maybe that’s just programmers.   (hey, weasels are kind of cute……… )  I say that jokingly, because I have a lot of programmer friends, BTW, and I adore them.

          I am talking about “real” men, with self-confidence to get any woman they want.  These are country boys with big muscle trucks, and they are bosses over a lot of contracts and workers.  They could not do these jobs without self-confidence. I know these guys.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Persephone

          Some weasel plugging away at a keyboard in Silicon Valley with a high net worth does necessarily have self-confidence.

          You do know that you are falling prey to stereotypes? I have been a computer scientist and engineer for well ever thirty years.  I can assure you that I and my peers have never fit your description. Most of the guys who work in Silicon Valley are hard working, fairly conservative individuals who do not lack self-confidence professionally.  The guys who make the cut out there are significantly smarter and more driven to succeed than 99% of the men in this country.

          In my humble opinion, you are suffering from cultural myopia. Your ingrained cultural biases and hatred of this situation is blinding you to the facts.  You need to look at the problem from all angles.  If you talk to these guys and gain their trust, they will tell you why they put up with being emasculated.  There is always a reason why a man tolerates that kind of behavior, and nine times out of ten it is fear of losing something.

          With that said, confidence in navigating one’s profession or the world does not automatically translate to confidence or an accurate reflection of self-worth when it comes to women.   Some of the men who get around the most are the most insecure when it comes to the opposite sex.  These men are driven to succeed with the opposite sex because it is validation.

        3. Jeremy

          @Persephone

          Because confidence doesn’t actually mean anything, other than a self-directed optimism?

           

          Because the reasons a man might be confident often have nothing to do with what a woman believes his confidence should signify about him?

           

          Because the reason he broke up with the “nice” girl may have had nothing to do with her being nice, and the reason he got together with a woman who was “challenging” may have had nothing to do with her being challenging?

           

          Because people often times don’t act in their own best interest, putting long-term interests behind short-term pleasure?

           

          Because those particular guys are actually attracted to bitches, indicating that their desires and emotional maturity might not be conducive to a good relationship with a secure partner?

           

          I don’t know any man who sought out a woman who was challenging.  I do know men who ended up with such women – and it was in SPITE of that fact, not because of it (and they are mostly unhappy after years of marriage, BTW).

        4. Nissa

          Jeremy, excellent points. I’ve met many people who told me how nice they were while exhibiting extremely “un-nice” behaviors. “Challenging” people of both genders tend to be confident, which is attractive to almost everyone.

        5. Persephone

          Nissa, I have always found “challenging” people to lack confidence.

        6. Jeremy

          Persephone, you refer to confidence over and over, imbuing it with meaning it doesn’t have.  I fully realize that many women are very attracted to confidence – but confidence is a heuristic, a mental short-cut used to represent other things.  You may perceive a man as being confident and think that his confidence signifies something about him that it does not.  I might humbly encourage you to reassess what you think confidence actually means in a man, and whether that assessment is accurate.

           

          A man might be confident because he has worked to develop a particular skill, and in that case his confidence will be narrowly focused (eg. A professor lecturing in his field of expertise).  This confidence is logical.

           

          A man might be confident because he has a good general skill-set and high tactical intelligence, and so trusts himself to do well at most things, whether he has specific training or not.  This confidence is more broad, and not completely logical.

           

          A man might be confident because he feels lucky, or because some supernatural force is looking out for him.  This confidence is very broad and illogical.

           

          A man might be confident because he is a narcissist with an over-inflated self-opinion masking deep insecurity.  This confidence is broad and pathological.

           

          A woman will not know the difference.   She will perceive a man’s confidence as indicating high-value.  As meaning that he will be able to give her whatever it is she wants – whether an excitement, security, sexual satisfaction – his confidence makes her believe that he can give her these…..even though the reasons for his confidence (as outlined above) may have NOTHING to do with any of her wishes…

        7. MilkyMae

          “I asked for discussion on why CONFIDENT men choose the women that Evan says not to be like.”

          When I go on a date and the attraction is not there,  I relax and have great time.  I smile and laugh at his dumb jokes. I’m easy to please. However, if the man good looking, then I tend to clam up and act more coldly.  I wonder if he likes me.  I try not to look desperate. As a result, I become more challenging to hot guys and if he is hot, he probably runs into challenging women all the time.  I think some confident man have figured out what is going when women act a little goofy.

        8. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          I’m fairly certain that when a woman talks about wanting confidence in a man, she means sexual confidence. Can he approach her, ask her out, demonstrate an appropriate level of interest, make the first physical move? I don’t mean a player but a man who has some game. For the women who like sexual confidence in a man, how he handles the initial part of the courtship (for lack of a better word) demonstrates how things will be once they get into the bedroom.

        9. Jeremy

          @Emily, perhaps and perhaps not.  But regardless of whether confidence at initiation equals sexual performance/confidence, it did not seem to me that Persephone was referring strictly to sexual confidence.  My experience is that many women use a man’s confidence in general as a shortcut to a man’s quality as a long-term relationship partner.  Drives me nuts, since it is so often wrong.

           

          I recently had a conversation with a good friend – both he and I grew up fairly non-confident.  He is trying to raise his son the polar opposite way that he was raised, and was complaining that his son was becoming too narcissistic.  I commented that, at least for myself, if I had grown up more confident, I likely would not be as good of a partner as I am.  Would not have the empathy, the ability to be self-effacing.  Would never have developed the impetus….

        10. Emily, the original

          Jeremy

          My experience is that many women use a man’s confidence in general as a shortcut to a man’s quality as a long-term relationship partner.  Drives me nuts, since it is so often wrong.

          Ah, therein lies the problem. Often, the qualities that make for a good, long-term partner are the opposite of those that make for a good, short-term (albeit exciting) partner.

        11. Persephone

          Yet another guy, I’m not relying on stereotypes at all. I’m relying on data that I find in the media. While I realize that each and every man working in the tech industry, or sitting behind a keyboard is not going to be the weasel type, it seems to indicate that there’s a larger percentage of them there than in the general population. Something about the tech culture seems to be breeding this attitude. Here is a cut and paste from the guardian.

          James Damore, the Google employee who authored a controversial 10-page manifestoabout the company’s “ideological echo chamber”.

          The 10-page document, which was circulated on an internal forum at Google before being leaked to the public, has been described as “anti-diversity” and has triggered outrage for suggesting that women are less suited to certain roles in tech and leadership than men.

           

           

        12. Yet Another Guy

          @Persephone

          I am going to file you under the category of “clueless.”  Your cultural bias is causing you to have a parochial view of the world. There was nothing weasel-like in what James Damore did at Google.  He merely wrote a memo stating how Google’s emphasis on diversity was negatively impacting effectiveness.  Like a lot of occupations, software engineering is a male dominated world.  Women who hold degrees in computer science or computer engineering are as rare as hen’s teeth. The same can be said for non-Asian minorities.

           

      2. 8.1.2
        Sum Guy

        I think in many cases they were not dating someone nice and choose crazy, rather married someone who hid the crazy until they had them locked in with marriage and kids.

        1. Christine

          I think you might be right.  That seems to be the case with all the married men I know with crazy wives.  My brother-in-law and husband also dated crazy women before–but, they didn’t marry them because these women weren’t able to hide the crazy all the way to a proposal.  I don’t know anyone, male or female, who purposefully sought out crazy–more like they were bamboozled into it.

          That was also the case with me–I admit I also got fooled by wolves in sheep’s clothing before.  But, I thank my lucky stars I at least wised up eventually.

           

           

           

           

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Christine,

          This thread is starting to feel like a crazy vs. hot thread I remember from awhile back 😉

          I also think there are two other things that factor into a man winding up in an unhappy LTR with a crazy woman.  First, they may view the flashes of crazy that do come out as a evidence of high worth in their partner.  For instance, if a girlfriend threatens to break up with her guy if he attends an out of town event without her, that might be seen as a display of her social worth:  She’s not afraid to leave me because she has options.

          Secondly, I think that often friends and family who do see the crazy don’t point it out to their friend or relative.  My brother had a crazy ex several years back that is now a part of family lore.  I was the first family member to meet her soon after they became an official couple andI totally sounded the alarm to family members.  But I never directly confronted the issue with my brother out of fear that I would alienate him and thereby push him even further into the relationship.  I put out a few tangential feelers, but when I got resistance from my brother, I backed off.

          My good friend’s brother was dating a crazy woman, and she asked him to list three things about his dearest that made her relationship worthy with the caveat that “she’s hot” doesn’t count. The only thing he could come up with was that their mother liked his girlfriend.  Except my friend knew that mom totally didn’t.  She didn’t want to alienate her son and just held on to the hope that he would eventually see the truth and dump the woman before he was in too deep.

          Maybe us family members and friends need to risk a rift with our loved ones and point out that, yes, your girlfriend is cray-cray.  Because otherwise, in the absence of a counter-narrative, the crazy behavior is normalized.

        3. FG

          Go-wFlow

          I advise to never, ever let anyone be emotionally-blackmailed. If the out of town event is of importance (say old perhaps fantasy commitments w friends such as “If ever Floyd w Waters plays within 500 miles, we’re ALL going together, guys!”), you gotta do what you gotta do!
          But see, no gf ever tried that crap w me. They knew what the answer would have been. They knew I was not going to chase a piece of tail while out of town. And my tolerance for that kind of low EIQ statement is zero.
          Wait a sec! Ball check! Yup, still there. Testosterone? A-OK.

          As to warning loved ones,  I was best man at a friend’s wedding. Before the whole church thing, I sat down w him and asked “Are you really, REALLY sure you want to marry Helen?”. Affirmative, but he asked me what my misgivings were. Told him. Well, years later, with divorce underway, he mentioned “You’re the only one who said anything, although I hear a lot of hidden opinions now!”
          Integrity, best interest of loved one, a lot of factors play a role in speaking up. Being a true friend can get you ostracized for a time. Self-examination of motives, and all that fun psychobabble stuff, is also important.

  9. 9
    Red

    @Persephone

    For a self-described sweet girl, you seem to be rather, well, sour. This statement really says it all: “By the way, after a full year of dating, my confirmed Bachelor boyfriend told me he loved me today. Hahaha. He’s already well into his thirties and then some. The only way he’ll marry is with a crazy bitch who will make his life miserable. I can see the writing on the wall.”

    The “weasels” must be relieved that you don’t think they’re “real men”. 

    1. 9.1
      Sum Guy

      Gosh I kind of have to agree with Red after reading the “weasel” comment constrasted with blue collar = real man.

      Having grown up in the blue collar red neck world, just cause you work with your hands and “boss” other men around (believe they ain’t bossing anyone they just control your paycheck) or act muy macho don’t mean squat on confidence.  Don’t confuse aggression with confidence.  In fact a lot of time it is an act, that is they don’t have inner confidence that is very much why they go with crazy bitches as hot as they can get because that is what they are told/grew up seeing as normal and that all women are that way.

    2. 9.2
      Persephone

      Not sour.  Realistic. He is going back to his country so he will not marry me anyway. Stats, which I fully realize are not always correct, show that a large percentage of men who have not married by late thirties, will never marry.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          Evan, It is actually the first thing Persephone has said that is true.  I have encountered that data several times.  The probably that a man will marry drops significantly at around age 37.  It drops again around age 42.  At age 50, that probability that a man who has not married will not marry is very high.  I going to have to dig for citations.

          As an aside, I found an interesting article while digging for the source of the data mentioned above that debunks the long-held assertion that those who wait to marry are less likely to get divorced.  A recent study shows that there is an upper bound for this assertion, after which the odds that a person will divorce increases 5% per year of age.   The upper bound is age 32.  The author basically reaches the conclusion that people who fail to marry by this age are impacted by the selection effect where those who are left as less fit for matrimonial life.

          https://ifstudies.org/blog/want-to-avoid-divorce-wait-to-get-married-but-not-too-long/

          “Instead, my money is on a selection effect: the kinds of people who wait till their thirties to get married may be the kinds of people who aren’t predisposed toward doing well in their marriages. For instance, some people seem to be congenitally cantankerous. Such people naturally have trouble with interpersonal relationships. Consequently they delay marriage, often because they can’t find anyone willing to marry them. When they do tie the knot, their marriages are automatically at high risk for divorce. More generally, perhaps people who marry later face a pool of potential spouses that has been winnowed down to exclude the individuals most predisposed to succeed at matrimony.”

          If Mr. Wolfingers’ analysis holds, it puts a big hole in the assertion that couples who marry later in life are more likely to remain married.  That assertion appears to no longer hold true for those who marry for the first time after reaching age 32.  Mr. Wolfinger used data from the of data collected by the National Survey of Family Growth (NGFG).  This NSFG is a division of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).  Data collected by the CDC is usually solid.  This data is collected to study family life and reproductive health.

          https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/index.htm

           

        2. FG

          YAG,

          My version of that bold-face sentence is simpler: those people who have secure attachment-styles are “secured”, involved, attached and likelier to make it!
          Whereas the “leftovers” (sorry to make it sound cynical, but there is a smaller % of truth in that) are rife with INsecure types.

          As a note, I mysef am of secure type, but some of my best past prospects for lifelong commitment wanted the kids / white picket fence / suburbia life kit. I didn’t! I made that clear and was wise (or foolish) enough to set them free! Out of respect for what they wanted out of life. And also respecting what I wanted to do with my own life. Tough choices. No regrets.

          MOST (not all) OLD profiles I read of women in my age group show longest relationships of 2, 4, 5 years. There are few 6, 7, 8, 9: we observe a quantum leap to “over 10” for the rest. That would include yours truly 🙂

        3. ScottH

          There’s a chart based on simulation (FWIW) in the Jeb Kinnison book, Bad Boyfriends, Using attachment theory to avoid mr or mrs wrong.  The chart is in chapter 25 and to quote a bit:  “… as time goes by and the secure are more likely to get into and stay in long-term relationships, the proportion of the types seen in the dating pool change- the secure become scarce, and the dismissive-avoidant… become the most likely type you will encounter.”  I thought Levine and Heller said a similar thing in Attached, that in the mid-life dating pool, you will mostly meet avoidant people and will have to wait for someone to die for a secure person to be recycled back into the dating pool.  I know everyone reading this is saying to themselves that they aren’t avoidant and nobody died for them to be in the dating pool.  And everybody looks younger than their age too.  Ok, according the Kinnison, the dating pool contains about 20% secures.

      1. 9.2.2
        DeeGee

        Persephone said: “a large percentage of men who have not married by late thirties, will never marry.

        I was married from 25 to 35.  Divorced.  Now I am 55 and still not (re)married.  And the reason is not of my own doing.  I would like to be married again.  But as women age they get much more unreasonable with their demands that a man must have the “6 sixes” in order to be “good enough” for them.  I have been on dating sites for years, dated many women, and they get more illogical and unreasonable as they get older.  Perhaps in some cases it is a defense mechanism from their earlier bad relationships.  However in most cases what I have seen is that women in their 40’s and 50’s actually believe that their sexual market value is still the same as a hot 20 year old.  The current “you go girl” generation is going all right…

        1. FG

          DeeGee, I have made several comments partly along those lines in the past week (see 69% rejects article & posts). You & I are the same age.

          I see women drop off OLD, and come back, and again. They either fail to find someone and get frustrated (and of course, I may have messaged a few of those gals w/o response), or they DO find someone, which was an irrational / unwise choice commensurate with a repetitive pattern of bad decisions.

          Guess I’m happy by myself, still have attainable goals and objectives, spent my vacation traveling 3 weeks in Asia (S Korea), go out as I will, but would like a permanent relationship. It may not happen. Even after phone call filtering and best detective mode, the available women in our age group range from “pretty batty” to batshit crazy.

          Read recently on OLD, woman,  48 (say a 6, appr.)
          Looking to have some fun. I like extremely generous men with nice teeth & big frame. Must have a full time job. Am especially attracted to men who let me do most of the talking, agree with everything I do. Absolutely thrilled by men who ask very little questions, talk very little and surprise me with lavish gifts.
          I like the spirit of blatant irony. Caveat: but imagine if she were actually serious!?!

          Ahhh, the piano teacher. Who expressed her expectation of being taken out. When we talked, a few issues became obvious. Yes, intelligent, good culture, pleasant. BUT, lives w her daughter and grand-daughter (not sure if the father was still around). Only has access to a car for short bursts (her daughter’s I guess). The gal lived 45 minutes away (not during rush hour), which can be viable. But w/o a car? Pick up, go out in her neck of the woods, drop off (90 mins travel). No intimacy likely at “her” place (spring for a hotel or motel? Doable. Feels like revisiting younger years though!) Pick up, go out, bring home? (3 hours minimum travel?). Skip.

          What can we say about a successful woman (49), workaholic (and maybe a little OCD in that vein), who tells you her marriage with the father of her 2 kids (19 & 21) failed because she didn’t find what she needed / wanted in her relationship, BUT in all the years they were together, she never once took a vacation with her family? Was “her man” fulfilled in his needs and expectations? She admits she was not “under the gun” in a way that prevented her from vacationing with her family, as her business partner did so, and often more than a year. OCD case?
          I never did get to meet her. From an initial conversation (1.5 hour), she then told me she was confronting the facts”: she was not ready for a relationship. She removed her profile, and that was that!

          In various spots, evan’s blog has women complaining that we men avoid datign within our age group. We try! Lord, we try! But maybe we throw in the towel at some point and adopt YAG’s approach.

        2. Persephone

          Hi, DeeGee. You would be excluded from the class of men that this is talking about. When they mean Bachelors, they mean someone who is never been married before. So that means you’re just a divorcee who hasn’t found anyone else you like yet.

          Can you explain what you mean by 6-sixes? I’ve never heard that term before. My guess is it somehow related to the 10 scale that men used to rate women?

          Is for “sexual market value,” that term in some ways is kind of offensive. I’m not blaming you, because I see it written in a lot of places. It just seems like part of the misogyny in our society. Does that mean breeding value, as far as being able to produce a baby? Or does that mean value as in the form of a porn girl in The flesh?  If sexual market value means just simply having genitalia, then no, a 90 year old woman could do for that. If in using the term sexual market value, you mean the whole package, then I feel more relieved. If that’s what you mean, then yes, a 40 or 50 year old can easily compete. Personality is more well developed by that age. I agree that both men and women get set in their ways in middle-age, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way.

        3. Emily, the original

          DeeGee,

          However in most cases what I have seen is that women in their 40’s and 50’s actually believe that their sexual market value is still the same as a hot 20 year old.  The current “you go girl” generation is going all right…

          I’m in my 40s and I am fully aware I don’t look like I did in my 20s. But I’m much clearer now about who I am and what I want. I’ve also grown in confidence and have started to be much better at putting up boundaries with men who are not treating me well (inconsistent; not showing up; saying one thing, doing another, etc.) I just met up this morning with a friend who’s in her early 50s. She said she’d rather be with no man than the wrong man.

        4. FG

          Pesephone

          SMW or Sexual Market Value (sometimes downtoned to Social Market Value) CAN be applicable to members of EITHER gender. So no, it’s not specifically insulting, not a code word of the Evil Misogynistic Patriarchy. You can equally use it for any Misandrist purpose 🙂  Except men won’t complain abotu trying to apply metrics to themselves.

        5. DeeGee

          FG said: “DeeGee, I have made several comments partly along those lines in the past week …

          I have experienced similar and can agree with everything you wrote.

          Persephone said: “Can you explain what you mean by 6-sixes?

          Sure.
          It is the current list or metric that many older women use to determine a man’s “relationship worthiness”.
          No, I did not make this up, women are actually using this list, and I have even seen many women’s dating profiles listing many of these as “minimum requirements” before they will reply to your message.
          Askmen.com refers to it as “The insane new way women are judging you”.
          The 6 sixes are:
          1 – At least six feet tall.
          2 – At least a six figure income ($100k+ a year).
          3 – A six-pack abdomen.
          4 – At least six months since his last relationship.
          5 – At least 600 horsepower in his car (a high end expensive car).
          6 – At least six inches below the belt.

          Persephone said: “As for “sexual market value”, that term in some ways is kind of offensive.

          I can understand your offense to it.  Just like I find offense to the “6 sixes”.
          I didn’t make SMV up either.  And I take it as meaning the whole package of the woman: personality, body, face, income, has children, etc.

          Emily, the original said: “But I’m much clearer now about who I am and what I want.

          As am I.  I pass over quite a few women on dating sites just because I see that their profile lists certain red flags.  “You must be wealthy” etc.

          Emily, the original said: “She said she’d rather be with no man than the wrong man.

          As would I (but of course with the sexes reversed).  😉
          That is why I am still alone after 20 years since my divorce.

          Here is a bit about me, some of this I have said before on the blog here:
          I’m currently 55 (2017).  I look a lot like David Caruso from his CSI:Miami days.
          I live in NE BC Canada in a city of about 45000 including outlying rural areas.
          I work out daily including yoga and pilates, I eat a mostly vegetarian diet, I am fit.
          I am well educated.  I went to university to study for my B.E.E (Bachelors in Electronics Engineering).
          I am an Architectural BIM Specialist (just think “Architect”) and Senior IT Manager.
          I am president of my own media company Demenzun Media Inc. which sells vertical software to military, movie, TV, and video game markets.
          I am secretary and shareholder in an Internet Service Provider in the city where I live.
          I make about $90k a year, I live in an older $250k executive home that I am enjoying renovating, I have a new SUV with only 20k km on it.
          I am a multi-published author, I am a professional composer who can play more than a dozen musical instruments.
          I am an avid photographer including macro-photography and photomicrography.
          I have multiple YouTube channels, one for my media company, another for my hobbies including my music.
          I do not drink or do drugs, I have a great sense of humor, I write poetry, I have a very stable and calm demeanor, I enjoy getting out, going for drives, going to the lake, having BBQs, watching movies, etc.

          I have recounted my personal experiences a few times on Evan’s blog before.
          Here is a recap of some plus a few additional ones.
          Note that I am being 100% truthful here, I am not embellishing anything.
          If we were Facebook friends I can supply you with names and photos and dates and times etc.

          – I dated my wife for two years before marriage.  She totally changed to a different person immediately after marriage.  When I confronted her about that in the first couple of weeks of marriage, her reply was (and I quote) “I acted that way (during dating) otherwise you would not have married me”.  The marriage was aweful.  The marriage counsellor asked me why I stayed so long with her with what she was doing.
          – The next long-term relationship (single mother) cheated on me with a typical “tall dark handsome wealthier” man, but didn’t even continue a relationship with him.
          – The next long-term relationship (single mother) didn’t tell me she had a psycho ex from seven years previous, who followed her to my house one night to find out where I lived and totaled my car and smashed all of the doors and windows out of my house.
          And as far as dating here are a few recounted encounters.
          – Multiple who have told me I am not tall enough (I am 5’9″ tall).
          – Multiple who have told me I do not make enough money ($90k a year).  One even laughed in my face at how much I make.
          – Two who have said my house isn’t good enough for them (a $250k executive home).
          And I am NOT going after high-value top-shelf women.  I typically choose anything from 3’s to 6’s, and any height, and any job type, and any size from thin to chubby.
          – One I met on online dating a few years ago told me yesterday that she was going back to the guy who cheated on her last year, and he is an abusive, unemployed, STD infected, narcissistic, polyamorous, pot smoker.  I am not lying or exaggerating.  She chose him over me!
          – One I met on online dating a few months ago, we went out three times, for the fourth date we agreed to get cuddly, I told her that I had an office meeting so I would be available for the date by 7:30pm-8:00pm, she flipped out that I didn’t drop everything for her immediately, so she drove 80km to the next city to pick up a girl friend of hers to go out and party instead.
          – One I met on online dating a couple of months ago, she has never been married, she has been single now for more than a decade, we have been on six dates so far, she told me that all of her previous relationships started as friends first for at least two years before romance, and that she will only repeat that same sequence with every other guy she dates, well I am not waiting two years to see if she decides if she wants to “date-date” romantically, I moved on.
          – One I chatted with for a while on online dating, told me that “she wasn’t sure why she started a dating profile because she really isn’t ready to get back out there”.  I took that as “you don’t excite me or have the 6 sixes so I’m not interested in you, but I will try to make you feel better by saying it’s me and not you (when it is really you)”.

          This is the type of stuff that men deal with from women on a continual ongoing basis.
          It is enough to make me continually drop out of dating for extended periods.
          I honestly believe that the reason why I am single for more than a decade is because most women prefer bad boys and cannot make any intelligent or logical decision on who to date.
          I guess that is why Evan has a business.  🙂

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @FG

          But maybe we throw in the towel at some point and adopt YAG’s approach.

          I do not know if I should be held up as some kind of role model.  I have my own set of issues. 🙂

        7. Persephone

          FG, I am so turned off by that description of what S M V means. (Bleck).

          It is almost enough to turn me away from dating altogether, to run wide open from all this numbering system stuff. I do not want to be rated by metrics. I am not a commodity. You like me or you do not like me. I am just plain ol’ practical.  It seems this stuff is being over thought.

           

        8. Persephone

          Wow, FG, it requires a lot of courage to expose yourself like you did. You sound like a great catch. What’s wrong with 5 foot 9 inches tall for a man? That’s kind of ridiculous for someone to think that’s too short. My man is about that height, and that’s four and a half inches taller than me! I don’t want to sound gross and expose my personal life, but since we are talking about dating this would be relevant. The size of a man’s package doesn’t mean crap. The guy I’m seeing now and have been seeing for many months is the best in the sack I’ve ever had in my life, but he’s also the smallest in inches. I hope this doesn’t sound inappropriate, but I don’t even notice except when giving head. If that six thing is what women are using online now, count me out. It’s disgusting, and it’s insulting to men.

          I didn’t know all this silliness existed with online dating. I don’t use online dating, but I have in the past, and actually met my ex-husband that way. It’s not the fault of online dating that I ignored a couple of red flags I should have heeded. I know many successful marriages that began through online dating.

          I wonder if all this metricising everything gets in the way of things.

           

        9. GoWiththeFlow

          Dee Gee & FG,

          I don’t think the concept of SMV is offensive or sexist at all.  What IS annoying (sexist? offensive?) is the way some men in the comments apply it to women while being totally oblivious to or dismissing that SMV rules apply to them as well.

          Evan has a post comparing lifetime SMV in men and women that’s based on some numbers crunching that Susan Walsh at Hookingupsmart.com did.  The short version:  They’re even.  There is short time lag where men’s SMV starts going down a few years after women’s does, but drop it does.  This is consistent with study data from OKCupid that shows while men universally say women in their early 20s are the most attractive, women say that men their own age are the most attractive until the ages of 40-45 where it starts dropping rapidly and women point to younger men as being the most attractive.

          So can you now see why 50 something men commenting on how pregnancy and menopause ruins our looks and SMV elicits comments that are the equivalent of an eye roll from women?

          As far as women being unaware of or overestimating their SMV, I don’t find this to be true at all.  We literally can’t get away from what society’s beauty standards are and how we don’t live up to them.  The elephant in the room is that our looks determine a lot of what happens in our lives.  As Emily said, us 40 year olds KNOW we are not as good looking as we were when we were 20.  Heck, at 20 we knew where we stood in the beauty pecking order of our peers.

          That women don’t put in their OLD profiles “I will take any man who will have me” doesn’t mean they aren’t aware of their SMV.  It likely means they are comfortable with the option of remaining alone.  YAG, FG, and other men have written how either now or at earlier points in their life, they wanted certain things in a woman, and if they didn’t get it they were content to be alone.  Yet when women do the same thing they are called “too picky” or told they don’t know what their true SMV is.

        10. DeeGee

          Persephone said: “Wow, FG, it requires a lot of courage to expose yourself like you did.

          Was this reply aimed at me instead?
          I have no issue at all being totally open and honest on this blog.
          I feel that this is what this blog is intended for, an honest discussion about dating in the modern world.
          And I have mentioned before that I will even send Evan proof of my claims if it were required and challenged.

          Persephone said: “What’s wrong with 5 foot 9 inches tall for a man?

          A man that is under 6 foot is too short for most women.
          Google “the most desired height for men by women” or anything similar for many studies and discussions on it.

          The woman that I met a while ago through online dating who went back to the cheater guy (see my previous post above), back when her and I were mixing things up to see about dating each other, she multiple times asked me what my height was.
          She is 5’7″ and I am 5’9″.  She continually challenged me on that, saying that she didn’t believe it.  To the point where she grabbed a ruler and made me stand in a doorway in my socks so that she could compare our heights!
          And even after that she still continually made comments that she didn’t believe it.  I am not making this up.
          Personally, I find the entire thing insulting.
          Women have no qualms at all about requiring and challenging a man’s height.
          Yet if a man grabbed a tape measure and continually measured a woman’s breast size to make sure she was a D-cup or whatever he wanted, imagine how the fur would fly then!
          FYI I prefer A and B cup, but I am also happy with a C cup.

          And in case anyone was wondering, for online dating, I normally have the age range set to 50 through 65 year old women.  I am 55.  So I am not looking for 20 year olds etc.

          Persephone said: “The guy I’m seeing now and have been seeing for many months is the best in the sack I’ve ever had in my life …

          It’s all in how a guy uses it.  🙂
          I have abundance in the package department so no comment there.
          And I have also taken courses in tantric touching, tantric sex, and I am well versed in toys and bdsm.
          Ladies, try out a LELO some time… a Gigi or other model…  you will probably thank me.  😉

          GoWiththeFlow said: “… SMV rules apply to them as well.

          I apply it to both sexes.  I also apply it to more than just looks.

          GoWiththeFlow said: “So can you now see why 50 something men commenting on …

          That age group would include me.  But I don’t personally do that.
          As I mentioned, I’m 55, I do my online dating searches for 50-65 year olds.
          I just go for profiles that seem interesting or women that seem nice.
          I tend to prefer nerdy or quirky.  Someone who doesn’t seem stuck up or red flags about high maintenance.
          Anything typically in the 3’s to 6’s.  Anything for height and body shape other than obese (I am into fitness and diet and that would be just too much of a contrast).

          GoWiththeFlow said: “As far as women being unaware of or overestimating their SMV, I don’t find this to be true at all.

          Unfortunately then your observations contradict mine.  And many other people’s observations.  Google it.
          The vast majority of women that I have met through online dating are very much hypergamous and very much honestly believe that they should be able to marry up.  Even at the age range of 50 to 65 that I typically search online dating for.
          If you do any research on this at all, you will find that in the vast majority of cases, for many many decades, men have almost always married down in all areas, where women have almost always married up.

          GoWiththeFlow said: “That women don’t put in their OLD profiles …

          What I do constantly see women put into their online dating profiles, is gross exaggerations of their SMV and looks.
          At least 30% of the profiles that I see, the women are using photos that are a decade or more younger, many of the photos even have the date stamp on them showing they are old pictures from the 2000’s!
          In the checkboxes for profile information, the majority of women exaggerate their body type, with women who are overweight and have rolls selecting “fit” or “athletic”.
          To be honest, I don’t look at men’s profiles, so I have no idea if men put false claims on theirs as well, like photoshopped toupe’s on their heads or their face pasted onto Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson’s body…

          GoWiththeFlow said: “Yet when women do the same thing they are called “too picky” or told they don’t know what their true SMV is.

          I completely disagree with this statement.  I feel you are exaggerating your claim.
          As I have mentioned multiple times already, I’m 55, fit, looking for women 50 to 65 of most any body type, etc.
          I don’t say that women MUST have a certain breast size, I don’t say that women MUST have a certain income level, but a good percentage of the women SURE DO THAT about men regarding height, income, and so much more.

        11. Fromkin

          I just met up this morning with a friend who’s in her early 50s. She said she’d rather be with no man than the wrong man.

          50-year-old women holding out for the One are a dime a dozen, and they’re all competing for the same few men I suppose. The trick is to find a cute 50-year-old who doesn’t feel that way.

           

        12. Emily, the original

          Fromkin,

          50-year-old women holding out for the One are a dime a dozen, and they’re all competing for the same few men I suppose.

          I never wrote she was holding out for the one. She’s just enjoying dating, but there are things she won’t put up with now that she tolerated in her younger years. It’s the irony of life. You become more confident and begin to understand who you are just as your butt starts hitting the floor!

    3. 9.3
      Persephone

      While I know that every single guy that works in the tech industry is not misogynistic, it does have a bad reputation for a reason. I know a lot of Tech Guys. Individually some of them are pretty awesome. But when it gets too big industry look at articles such as this one:

      https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/18/women-google-memo-racism-sexism-discrimination-quit
      Women say they quit Google because of racial discrimination: ‘I was invisible’
      “I didn’t see a lot of women, especially Asian women, black women or other women of color in the executive ranks,” she said. “I didn’t see any opportunities for myself … The culture there is really discouraging, and that’s ultimately why I left.”

      And while I’m sure there are progressive / leftist people somewhere in the tech industry, the overall culture is one that is right for breeding the alt right culture.

      So, yes, I would say that there are a few weasels running around it Google, and if they are influencing other sectors of the tech industry, there are weasels behind a lot of different keyboards.

      To those of you who are not like this, high five!

      1. 9.3.1
        FG

        Oh boy! And “oh boy” I will reprise on legal matters in a few minutes.

        I deal with engineering and technology. Hired a woman ONCE! What we do is NOT Kumbaya fluff.
        Team work, imo, is a non-issue: anything deemed team work is fluff. The reality: tasks get divvied up and assigned, and you work / grind at your own piece of the puzzle. You may ask for insight / help / ideas if/when you’re stumped. A lot of what we do is solo! The “ONCE” above means “never again”. She was trained well (I’ve heard I do that), supported well (in-house and at client sites), but after a while, she tendered her resignation because she had found a job where she was to work in a more social / team environment.
        I have observed that meeting-itis is linked to more women in the workplace. Sorry. No need for a meeting to cover my a$$. I know or I don’t know, and act accordingly.

        Had a gal (met OLD) tell me that she was earning less because she was a woman, while doing the same job. Said that would be illegal. Had to work the damn answer out of her. “Same job” as her boss, who thus had more responsibility than she did. AND we was better qualified (at least on paper / degrees & certs). I’ll admit “better qualified” in terms of curriculum is not always reflected on the job, but these are the societal standards. Capisce? 😉
        (sarcasm) I love nonsense. No, management will likely not be a haven of parity. It may never be. “Feeling” invisible is not a criterion. Want to know if you are invisible? Don’t punch in for 2-3 days w/o calling.

        Mentioned elsewhere. We are evolving towards segregated gender at work. Can’t wait! What we will be able to clearly see is whether the female sections are as productive as the male departments! I will not venture my opinion. If I were Google management, my sole concern would be whether an employee can code or not, and get along / get work done adequately or not. Are you willing to live with the answers if it turns out (which could happen) that females are substantially less capable (in those tasks, and in that context) than males?

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          FG,

          A friend’s daughter–BS in engineering from a top school–was six months into her entry level job at a major engineering firm when three of her male coworkers let her know her salary was $20k less than theirs.  All entry level, all fresh out of school and in their first jobs.  The young men told her because they thought his very unfair.

          Maybe a reason women with a talent for science and math don’t go into some STEM fields is because they don’t want to spend a lifetime fighting city hall.  They have options:  Medicine, economics, accounting and finance are all challenging and rewarding without the added BS that is exemplified by your screed.

        2. FG

          Funny thing about ALL such examples I’ve come across?  I can usually and easily find the key point. You can be entry level, but some are service / on-call (pays more), others are office (pays less). Specialty relative to corp core business. Track record (entry tends to not remain entry very long). Analyzing what was said and who said it! Dig up the facts. think about it! How did the MEN know this and she didn’t? Or did she have snowflake moment thinking they might more $ then she did? Neither you, nor I, will ever find out. Say all 3 colleagues were from Denver School of Mining? They willl earn more. Same for MIT. The variants are fascinating, and require decrypting.

          Dear Dr. In a crisis / emergency, I would rather have your medical services than none, but would rather rely on a male than on you. From experience and obbservation. Now if I knew both physicians personally, I might make a betetr call. You might win out! 🙂

          Women DO get bumped up to middle-management. Often overtaking males. Why? OMG, we soooo want to get them out of the way, it’s not funny! A satysfying job (say 7-8 of 10) can drop 3 points from having a woman join the team.

          Sorry if it rattles your ideals of wonderful rainbow unicorn parity and all that fun stuff.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          FG,

          The three young engineers were all recruited at the same time from the same school.  They are in the same department of a large multinational firm where they have the same status and pay grade.  It’s interesting how you assume I wouldn’t know the details.

          As for all of your “snowflake” talk, I’ve discovered an interesting thing:  When you confront a right wing sexist, racist, or bigot on their ridiculous, rigid behavior, and point out how truly whiny and, well, snowflake it id, they completely lose their shit.  Snowflake is a term of projection.

          So FG, you can’t handle competing with women (and probably minorities too since sexism and racism go hand in hand) and feel the field should be cleared just for you?  You don’t like it when people don’t or won’t recognize the superiority of your intellect or opinions?  So you whine, whine, whine, about the feminists, SJWs, and government officials who are out to get you.  Gawd, I bet even the guys around you get tired of your schtick.  Suck it up buttercup.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          FG,

          “Dear Dr. In a crisis / emergency, I would rather have your medical services than none, but would rather rely on a male than on you. From experience and obbservation. Now if I knew both physicians personally, I might make a betetr call. You might win out! 🙂”

          YAWN!

          You seem to think I’ve never encountered a situation like this before.  It doesn’t matter whether you would choose to deem me an honorary male doctor that’s worthy of providing medical services to you.  A patient like you is medic0-legally a huge downside risk.  Emergency or not, I’d walk away and let a white male colleague take over your care.  (There is never a situation where a doctor can’t be switched out of a case.) In the few situations where this has occurred, the surgeon, the nursing staff, and the higher ups in my specialty group (all white men) have backed me up 100%.  They would put the blame solely on you.

        5. FG

          Flow,

          Quaint. I thought you were a radiologist, who by definition almost never see patients (or do so very little).
          Here’s a true, fun (hmmm, painful? odd? weird? whatever) anecdote. Female lawyer (cute gall too) pulling out of an underground  parking garage. As she reaches the top of the hill, whether from brakes, transmission, guman error, other) the car “decides” to back up down the hill. If no control, just butt the rear into the wall. What does she do? Opens the door and jumps out! With the car rolling backwards. Casts, physio, rehab, but on the bright side, still alive.

          Seriously, with all due respect to physicians, the med IQ is a very narrow spread (120-125), by design. Escapees are rare cases. Candidates are chosen for perfectionism, compliance, essentially on personality type. Ever noticed most of your colleagues fit that bill? There are reasons for that. Anyway!

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          FG,

          “I thought you were a radiologist. . .”

          Nope, anesthesiologist.  In true emergency in my specialty, you would have a tube in your windpipe and be unconscious so your opinions would not be heard, much less matter.  All other instances, if a patient expresses distaste for the physician about to treat them, the case is put on hold until another doctor is available because the patient just became a huge liability for the doctor and the hospital.

          The last time this happened where I was involved a white supremacist with swastika tattoos objected to one of my partners who had a Jewish sounding name taking care of him while his shattered femur (gunshot wound) was repaired.  That doctor was sent to lunch and the patient had to wait an extra hour before I was available to do his case.  The patient screwed himself with his own bigotry.

  10. 10
    Sum Guy

    Have to say Evan nailed this one.

    1. 10.1
      Sum Guy

      when I said nailed this one was referring to the podcast, not the specific comment

  11. 11
    Persephone

    Even though we hear a lot about abuse of women, men get abused, too.  When the roles are reversed, and the man is the victim of the abuse, people are thrown off balance.  Yes, men can be drawn to abuse just like women can. Domestic violence against men can take many forms, including emotional, sexual and physical abuse and threats of abuse. It might not be easy to recognize domestic violence against men. Early in the relationship, your partner might seem attentive, generous and protective in ways that later turn out to be controlling and frightening. Initially, the abuse might appear as isolated incidents.  it has been argued that men who experience such violence often encounter pressure against reporting, with those that do facing social stigma regarding their perceived lack of machismo and other denigrations of their masculinity.

    This is the best explanation of all:  ” just as a fish doesn’t know that he’s wet, we often don’t see the subtle markers for abuse in a relationship because we are in it. 

  12. 12
    Persephone

    I think my other post disappeared, so I’m going to try to recreate it. My apologies if it’s a duplicate. But Evan, your wish is my command. If I can find the Articles again about where I get the stats.

     

    1.  “……a psychologist at the University of Akron in Ohio who studied a group of white, heterosexual bachelors 40 to 50 years old. “If you both value independence, it might be okay,” he said. “But if you want marriage, stay away.” 

    ” not woman-haters, they are not fixated on a parent, and they are not workaholics or wild playboys.

     

    http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/28/news/confirmed-bachelorhood-it-may-be-a-state-of-mind.html?pagewanted=all

    Charles Waehler, a professor at the University of Akron in Ohio and a psychologist, studied heterosexual never- married men for more than a decade and concluded that there’s only a 1-in-6 chance that men older than 40 will leave the single life. After age 45, the odds jump to 1 in 20.

    2. This article here cites the same study that is cited in number one. But it has additional information. http://www.sfgate.com/living/article/Kind-of-looking-for-Ms-Right-Older-bachelors-2638858.php

    And yes, I realize that the links above are few years old, but I’ve found numerous other bits of information that is less than one or two years old that confirms the same thing. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And I know with great people like Evan around, it can help sift through the problem.

    As stated in Evan’s video, a man could quite well fall in love with a woman. But I say that that’s no guarantee he’s going to fall in love with her enough to marry her. One of the articles I found which I can’t find again says many of these confirmed Bachelors, even when a woman does everything right like Evan says to do in the video, will hold on to her as long as he can but never really commit. In fact, these men according to the articles I read, look for women that meet there really high standards. But then they’re still afraid of getting married.

    1. 12.1
      Sum Guy

      Hi Persephone,

      By afraid of marriage do you mean just the legal term or does it also include also afraid of living together and being committed to a person just as much as in a marriage?

      As much as I believe in marriage and it’s importance if you are having children together, it has zero upside and all downside in the US for a man in a heterosexual marriage because the divorce laws, both as crafted and applied, are decidedly one-sided.

      Sadly to, in some states I understand that if a divorced man marries, the assets and income of his new wife go into the pot his ex can go after for increased child support, alimony, college expenses etc.

      1. 12.1.1
        Persephone

        To Sum Guy 12.1. You asked,
         By afraid of marriage do you mean just the legal term or does it also include also afraid of living together and being committed to a person just as much as in a marriage?
        My answer is that they depends on the guy. My current guy says he’s just afraid of commitment in general, in addition to a being afraid of marriage. None of the women he’s been with have stuck around long enough  to find out whether he’ll  eventually  change his mind  and want to be with them long term. He’s afraid the woman will change after 5 years. Some of his married buddies tell him horror stories about how their wives complain about the tiniest little things. He’s also afraid of losing his freedom. His mistake is in judging by generalities, instead of looking at who I am as an individual, but more time will fix that issue. The only cure for that I know is time. I have the choice to either let him go, which I just can’t do because I care about him so much, or to wait him out. Both are very risky.

        One example is that we had decided to get together on Saturday night, and I was going to cook steak for us. He ended up having to work extra hours. He was dog tired. Then to top it off the boss insisted he come back Sunday to  finish up the job. That meant our Saturday night was out. He knew I’d had a rough week at my job also, so he took extra time having a sweet phone conversation with me. I allowed him the  freedom to work these hours without me complaining or getting angry. He was so afraid I would be angry. Me not getting angry inches him closer to easing his fears of commitment. This is very consistent with what Evan says in the video above. It’s a very real example of this, when it would have been much easier to give the poor guy a hard time instead.

        But then it goes both ways. My past significant relationships gave me abuse, so I need time for a guy to prove himself, also. There’s nothing wrong with taking your time to get to know someone. Most people don’t want to wait.

        1. Persephone

          I feel that am a kind, sweet, woman, and I believe I do everything right with my boyfriend that Evan says to do in the video. (Hi Evan! Great video!) I have plenty to bring to the table, we get along very well, are well matched, and I feel he loves me. But it’s probably not going to go any further.

          It is now clear that I have fallen in love with an Eternal Bachelor. Something happened this weekend to finally made me understand him. I think I understand what causes Eternal Bachelor’s now.

          He had a few beers. We were talking about something that happened in my past. An ex hit me resulting in the necessity for bone graft surgery, nose surgery and dental work. Because he was drunk, he finally opened up.  He witnessed his family member murder someone.

          I did some research and learned about “intimacy avoidance”, which is related to early childhood trauma. These kids  learn that to get too close is to get hurt, and so it’s best to flee from these feelings.  Rather than experiencing strong bonding, children who are neglected or abused “learn” that affection is conditional, abusive, absent or overpowering.

          They want love, but fear intimacy more. They are uncomfortable with human closeness. With the occasion friendships and love affairs, eventually they begin to feel alternately trapped and bored.  Then they disengage emotionally.

          I, also, have been through childhood trauma. This is why I understand very well.

           

           

  13. 13
    FG

    Not nitpicking, High net worth “keyboard monkeys” (joking) in Silicon Valley are relatively scarce unless corp officers. High-income ones abound, BUT the local costs are astounding. $50K+ rent, and not for palaces, are common. So making $120K – $150K p.a. in CA, given CA income taxes, is not that conducive to net worth accumulation.

    That being said, the issues Persephone perceives might be summarized by analyzing the interface. WHO are these 2 individuals being brought together? Consideration of high/low maintenance, more likely applicable to women (sorry; metrosexual men are also up there, but they don’t eat/farm catfish), can trash a relationship. Most men put up with High Maint for a bit, and then get fed up (at least, I do). Read 100 times on OLD: “as comfortable in heels as I am in jeans” (or equivalent). Usual meaning: in designer jeans at the yacht or golf club. The truly versatile / flex “evening gown to eating empanadas on the street” comfort level is rare. Oh the horror. Empanadas. Akin / similar to Cornish pastries or pasties. Worldwide.

    Wrote in the 69% rejects > a good, pretty, loving woman is a good catch / asset for many. If/when pretty, you’ll catch the eye. Yet, leave the middle of statistical distribution (whether IQ, experience, life, achievements, finances, other), and it may not be enough to hold the other party’s attention. In the same way as younger women spot potential and latch on to it, but split if later facts fail to live up to initial potential.
    On “69% of men get rejected”, in 19.4.1, I tried to answer Ames’s question about women’s achievements and the like. There are life stages, eventual retirement, issues of education, career/job, sex (I skipped in the stated segment, but touched upon it elsewhere).
    Nothing wrong w “average”. But most women do not want or seek average. And if you consider an “outlier” man, different in some way, if only in his ideas, what do you offer? Who/what are you? What makes you special? Not talking about becoming that special person in that man’s eyes. Are you interesting? How so? Is it a case of “great book cover art” but “bad story”, “lame writing” and/or “little or no contents”?
    Sex / lovemaking is of key importance to a relationship. And generates much talk. Yet, w/o going into Tantric, how extensive is your menu, or as I often point out, are you stuck on the average 20-minute encounter (with your man), or can you think in terms of 12 hours? 🙂 Or outdoors? W/o getting into (I think it was) Athena’s swinging sex-life quey/suggestion, can you / will you dress like a “slut” for your man? Supposing that turns his crank. In private, or in limited public display? Not advocating.

    The bitchy temperemental storms you describe would get quelled instantly with me. Better yet, I suspect I would never have gotten involved with such creatures.
    YAG also nails it when he mentions emasculated men. But there are also personality and psychological makeup issues. A long-time friend of mine, intelligent, successful guy, has had 5 relationships in his life. He’s been cheated on all 5 times. Seems to me he must be doing something wrong. A weakness of character, of sorts. Or weakness in the sack.

    A parte. Just read a wise meme about growing in love instead of falling in love. So true.

  14. 14
    FG

    PS I was married once. Until such time as the legal framework changes, I will never marry again.  I would like to live w a (my eventual) gal.

    At my age (edge of 57), there are no considerations of child-rearing, stay-at-home sacrifices or similar. I like kids, but I didn’t want any. Would have been a great Dad, but my pursuits, which I lvoed, were going to take me away frequently, which is not ideal to provide presence, bonding and the like.

    I am an advocate of “to each his own”. Not during the partnership, but certainly at its dissolution, which occurs too frequently. Nuance: different rules should apply to a childless couple and a family with kids.
    For a childless couple…
    Buy house, split mortage & expenses 75/25? The split on the way out should not be 50/50.
    The 75% share controls sale or keeping the house. The 25% shareholder gets 25%, AND 25% of the market value-increase.
    That kind of rational adjudication would help.
    I am responsible for my own choices, but not for another person’s. Assuming that decisions (and outcomes from same) taken by one of the parties in a relationship implied mutual consent is a fallacy.
    A good way to not prevent him from falling in love? Don’t assume he’s your male wallet.

    1. 14.1
      Mrs Happy

      Dear FG @14,

      do you think your attitude to money and splitting of assets decreases your success in the dating/relationship world?

      I ask because so many people believe one of the things females look and barter for is a partner’s wealth.  If you remove that carrot from the equation, I’m assuming some (?many) women back out?

    2. 14.2
      Persephone

      FG, I’m puzzled by the 75/25 cut. Which party would get that? How do you decide in cases where they both make equal contributions? Not all contributions are monetary. What if  Partner “A” thinks they should be the 75% person, while Partner “B” also thinks they should be the 75% person? How do you decide? Antenuptial agreements can help with that.

      When you say different rules, do you mean different rules for divorce? It’s already the way you suggest. Different rules already apply for childless  couples. Did you have an attorney in your divorce?

      I am a lawyer. I will never get remarried again without an ante-nuptial agreement, if only for peace of mind. Fortunately, I got a divorce without my inherited property being affected. I kept a separate estate. Bear in mind that property laws vary from state-to-state. Again, a well-drafted  antenuptial agreement can prevent many heartaches and unfairnesses for the property laws in states such as California.

       

      1. 14.2.1
        FG

        Where are you from, Persephone? We say prenup. And depending on location, prenups are of extremely limited use or value. People also forget that the prevailing rules where they live change completely if they move to another state / province. France has a uniform legal system, but the US and Canada don’t!

        NO, there are no valid “other contributions”.  You keep what you paid for! I do not see how a 25% partner can make an argument for 75% if they did not lay out the commensurate cash for initial downpayment, mortgage and expenses. |
        BUT, I have advised legislators that in cases of mutual-agreement for factors that might influence the outcome at dissolution, a notarized agreement should be the norm. In its absence, we can assume the parties were not in agreement.
        Know a guy who was married to a nurse. She proposed to take a lesser paying job, as that would be best for the family (dedicating more time to household and the kids), better schedule, and less stress. Come divorce time, he adjusted accordingly, as decision was mutually agreed. What if it hadn’t? What if she had taken that decision unilaterally?  We speak of marriage and partnerships as though everything was always a shared decision and mutually responsible in outcome, but they’re not! Jury is still out, but my (far lengthier) arguments and flowcharts stopped proposed legislation dead in its tracks. Small, tiny victory.
        Where I am, your inherited / estate property would have been untouchable. That varies in other jurisdictions.
        And yes, I did have attorneyS in my divorce. Little difference in these parts!

        A couple with children may have to consider there are a FEW years where the mother is more family-involved.

        1. Persephone

          FG, you clearly do not understand the legalities behind antenuptial agreements. A simple notarized signature is not sufficient. When I draw these up for my clients, there has to be an attorney for each party, or otherwise it’s not going to hold up in court.

          You are certainly at liberty to call them prenuptial agreements if you want, because they’re basically the same thing. The courts and most of  my colleagues call them antenuptial, but if somebody tosses out the word prenuptial nobody bats an eye.

          A properly drafted and executed antenuptial agreement will absolutely hold up in court, and they can be of great value.

          Inherited property surely can be turned into marital property, if used as a marital residence with contributions by the non inheriting partner. What I try to do in drafting divorce settlement agreements is allow the inheriting partner to  subtract the value  of the property prior to it changing characteristic to being marital property. The balance of what’s left is then used to divide up between the divorcing parties. Every state is going to be different on this depending on case law.

           

           

           

           

           

        2. Persephone

          FG, when you say that there are no other valid contributions, you are totally discounting the validity of a woman quitting work to stay home the first three years of an infant’s life. You are also totally discounting the value of a male partner who might decide to stay home to do his own addition onto the house, using his own labor, or perhaps growing the entire amount of family food in the garden and in the barnyard, while the wife goes off to town to earn a paycheck so that building materials can be purchased. All of these things should be thrown into the mix if they exist.

      2. 14.2.2
        FG

        PS
        In divorce, for real estate, title (name/s on documents) and tax bill (name/s as well) usually determine the game.
        If a couple were buying a house together and know at the outset the % wil lbe 75/25, documents should be written in that vein and recognize the facts.
        Buying a house with a spouse should be no different than a purchase made as a partnership (say 3 guys buying a bldg to collect rent money; might be 1/3 1/3 1/3, but could be 50 / 25 /25%).

         

        1. Persephone

          FG at 14.2.2. My recommendation is that antenuptial Agreements are used if this is the outcome that you want. If there are certain provisions in an antenuptial agreement that are considered unconscionable, they will not hold up in court, and your 25% scheme might be one of them.

          There is no fairness for a woman to marry some guy and give him 75% and let her get only 25%, after all the years she might have  worked her rear off in manufacturing, long weekend night shifts, while he goes put to clubs picking up women.

        2. FG

          Oh Boy!

          We (men) are NOT responsible for a woman’s ability (or lack thereof), her IQ, her life choices, her education, her job & opportunities, and the color of her hair (that’s the teasing part).
          At times ,we are not even responsible for pregnancies. Sure, we participated, but how many cases of false information or guises. As in she is taking the Pill (but quit), and the like. Professional athletes arre told to wear a condom, “dismount” in the bathroom, and flush it!

          I have no sympathy for the guy you describe off picking up women at a club, but that is not SO common above middle-class.
          I want to eliminate any gains for either party when they did not work for it, earn it, and make the payments. The notarized mutual-agreement I suggest is for things like stay-at-home for X years, instead of going back to work.
          I advocate granting a father the right of divorcing his children. You who seem so convinced of parity should appreciate that. The guy really can’t stand the woman. He never wants to see or hear from her again (which is difficutl w children in the middle). He may not have wanted children (surprise). There arre a whoel slew of reasons. He loses any rights. Essentially will never see them again. And ditches the responsibility of child support. That is not the  current legal framework. I know. You want parity? Own it! How so?? Ahhh, a woman is master of her own body and can get an abortion whether the father wants to or not (I do not dispute that right). But a man’s biology, thus, part of his body, may have been used against his will, see the logic? So he should also be able  to “abort”.

          As to adding those things into the mix, garden, addition,  that is EXACTLY what I allude to when I say notarized enshrining a mutual-decision. Cost at notary public? Pffffttt! I never tendered it might apply to a prenup, btw.
          As I said, where I am, your inheritance is your own. Period. Proceeds and accrual from that inheritance? As well. Prenups? Unless a very specific unsual bit applies, likely not worth it!
          A corporation owned by one of the spouses? Unless the other spouse worked in it, that is wholly owned by one and indivisble.

  15. 15
    FG

    @ Mrs Happy

    To answer 14.1, not really! I aim to date women who “make sense” for me, and that means seeking upper-middle class and above women (academia, professionals, similar). See cases in 9.2.x

    In a sense, yes, it does narrow down my options. It also means I’m serious and not solely seeking a bedwarmer or +1 or FwB or decorative companion. The contents of my posts can be misleading. I’m easy to be around, funny, attentive. But when we talk serious matters on a blog, I say it like I see it. 1 on 1, I adopt a softer demeanor 🙂  My beliefs: I’d rather be making love than having sex. Can I play rough? Well, some gals like that. I aim to please. Spanking is on request only.

    My ex wife spent a month in Paris, same in UK, 3 weeks in one Caribbean destination, several spurts in South American countries, and pretty much went everywhere in the contiguous States and Canada. I footed the bills. And perhaps was less than pleased for the outlay of my “exit ticket”. I do not care to  repeat. In spite of that, my net worth, while taking a torpedo hit, still hovers in the top 15% of household (am I homely? lol). I worked at it!

    There is a correlation between $ and IQ. Also between $ and age. And a fable called The grasshopper and the ant (bad translation: should have been cicada).
    I may be nefariously influenced by feminism. “So you’re equal!?! Never had a problem with that! Own it!”  And some women do. Others want their cake and eat it too!

    There is room or margin for acceptance of various lifestyles in my take. My criteria are not hardset. My $150K minimum net worth also allows “or pension”. But it goes beyond that. Would I reject a gal for coming short at $100K? No. You knew that! What if the gal wrote several books and got published? Not a heavy-hitter in sales, but likely has something to say.

    Met a gal who was $40K under (accumulated debt). I know that Evan faced a similar issue at some point (if not mistaken, and related in various forms). That problem gives us pause, and triggers a balance sheet review. were it the sole challenge, and most everything else comes up roses, doable! If the liabilities / negatives list has quite a few other items, sorry! I am not perfect. And do not expect my gal to  be. But why climb aboard a sinking ship or a boat taking on water?

    Many people live on appearances. My car is more modest, but it’s paid for! Kind of goes along the lines of “The Millionaire Next Door”. Not depriving myself, and will splurge for memorable times or for value. But will not throw money out of window willy-nilly. Think vacation abroad! Do you prefer 2 weeks, money is no object, or 4 weeks, with a weekly hurrah splurge but otherwise controlled budget (on restaurants, or nightclubs; goes w/o saying that you’re not traveling just to stare out the window, there will be costs)?

    I’m a “cheap bastard”. Let me qualify that! On approach to the Grand Canyon, town entrance fees are posted. I said “No way am I paying to enter a tourist trap town to have a beer, a snack and buy a postcard!”
    Ex said “You’re kidding right? Come all this way and NOT see the Canyon?”
    “That’s NOT what I said! I have a plan!”
    The airport is before the paybooth! Got it? Will pay $300 for small plane, fuel and pilot. Will not pay to enter a town.
    Or years ago in NYC, to “Shall we go to the Empire State Bldg?” “Nahhhhh” “Oh, the WTC observatory!?!” (it was still around) “Nahhhhhh” It was a long (and splurge) w-e. Monday was going to be bright and sunny. 34th St heliport… See it all, but do it differently!
    Other NYC trip. My then gf’s 1st time there. Many want to see / ride the subway, it’s a movie meme. You do it once! And then from point A to point B, I said “We’ll cab it!” and she says “A lot more expensive, etc.”  Reply: “I don’t spend my life in NYC. There is nothing to see in a dark tunnel. And plenty to see at street level. In fact, I often find I don’t make it to my destination, as I see something along the way and I want to stop! Feel free to call it when you see something of interest!” And that happened to either of us. She returned to NYC w her daughter 2 years later. And told me my “system” was the best!

    To conclude, some women may back out from not meeting minimal requirements, in the same  way I stay far from Miss Ski/Gym/golf/biking/etc. Sure, I like hiking (moderately) and walking (countryside or city). I can play mentor to certain women, but I prefer to have life experiences on both sides of the equation. I appreciate intellectual exchanges, and if a gal’s world was limited to Oprah/Ellen and headlines, not a good fit! If uncommon fare (food) is a problem, not a good fit! If everything must be orderly, planned to the minutest detail, that works sometimes but clashes with my flex/versatility. If everything must be designer labeled, never mind! Made the point “jeans or LBD+heels” too often means “designer jeans”at the club. Too tame!
    So the financials are not the principal stumbling block 🙂 I’m not easily matched. I am aware. But it will fit (decently), or never mind!

     

  16. 16
    FG

    DeeGee, your fly is open! (you are exposed lol)

    Persephone, that was him not me! in The 9.2.2 track.

    1. 16.1
      Persephone

      My apology for getting mixed up. My question to DeeGee if he sees it, women really do use the sixes thing specifically when they respond to you? How tacky.

      1. 16.1.1
        DeeGee

        Persephone said: “women really do use the sixes thing specifically when they respond to you?

        So far I have only had comments or questions from women regarding my height, my income, my fitness level, and my house value.  I have never had a woman ask me about my vehicle, or my penis size.  So from that I would have to take it that many women are interested in at least 4 of the sixes…  🙂

        The only real questions I have for women are, are you kind, do you like having fun, do you like to eat well and do some yoga.
        I couldn’t care less about age, specific body shape, breast size, height, income, children, where she lives (apartment or home), etc.
        Eventually it is good to know if she has slept around a lot and has any STIs etc… but save those types of questions for after the first date.  😉

        1. Sum Guy

          Never knew there was a name for that, the sixes, at least 3 of those 4 are often part of an on-line dating profile.  The fourth (house price) can often be garnered from where you live.

          I can’t imagine someone asking bout penid size without it signaling to a guy you just want to hook up.

  17. 17
    Persephone

    Wow, DeeGee, that is very sad. It sounds to me like there’s a lot of superficial folks out there. But then that’s not a surprise to me.

    Here is something I’ll have to step lightly around. The only online dating I ever did was on sites that were geared toward people that were not of the mainstream predominant culture. I just don’t fit in with it, nor with the people in it. I find the values to be inconsistent with my values. The questions these women are asking illustrate my point well.

    I’ve never used sites such as OkCupid, or eHarmony. I live in a rural community in the South, outside of a bigger city. Even though I have tons of friends, I find that I don’t have everything in common with them. For one, it’s a very very red state politically. They all go to these  churches where everybody has the same color hair  and skin tone, and where  fire and brimstone  sermons contain subject matter  that are not consistent with my values of inclusiveness. Of the significant relationships I had with men who did fit in with this community, one of them broke my nose and smashed in my face. I have had to replace my once perfect teeth with no cavities, with an upper dental arch, but not before I had painful bone graft surgery in my face. The other significant relationship,  he left me standing in the living room on our first Valentine’s Day as husband and wife, with me wearing a beautiful negligee and tears streaming down my face as he refused the special dinner I had cooked for us,  because he was afraid he would be late for a special event he wanted to go to where they were catching balloons with prizes inside at the local bar. Imagine the image, because I am not a ugly woman.

    I didn’t want to start into any kind of discussion about politics, race, or ethnicity, except for the limited purpose of  explaining  about broadening the pool of individuals in which you seek dates.  I sought out online dating in order to find someone who was in a different ethnic background. Examples of such things might be Hispanic groups, or arablounge.com. Explore outside your own ethnicity, and you might find values that are different than those you describe from these creepy women. I hope I’m not reaching into dangerous territory by assuming your ethnicity.

    That’s really not a whole lot different than the things that Evan tells women, for example to consider somebody who’s not necessarily 6 ft tall. Or doesn’t have a degree or job in one of the professions. Evan keeps telling us to look for less superficial qualities.  I say that if a woman is going to look for those kinds of things, don’t even give her the time of day.

     

     

     

     

     

    1. 17.1
      Sum Guy

      Wow Persephone!  That is awful.   Can only say that is not the norm in other parts of the US (I’ve lived in 5 states, big cities, college towns, n rural -like thousand acre fields rural) and likely there is a whole culture (sub-culture) where you live that is against all you describe.

      1. 17.1.1
        Persephone

        To Sum Guy 17.1, maybe so, but there’s still that thing about the six sixes, with the superficial criteria on how to judge whether or not someone is worthy of dating. What happened to me may be a more extreme example, but I don’t think it’s isolated only to the southeastern United States.

        1. Sum Guy

          hi Persephone

          abuse is certainly not limited to the SE, or just men abusing women as your other post on women abusing men, but I’d garnered from your other postd that what you suffered is  kind of accepted where you live or not unusual. Maybe wrong on that.

          I certainly agree with you that the majority on on-line site are likely part of the mainstream materialist culture, one reasons it mainstream is so many people follow it.

          I would love to hear of non-mainstream sites.

          I can say though that non-mainstream people do exist, at least on Match, albeit few and far between and I live near a major northern city.  Meetups probably the best way to meet more non-mainstream people or move to a college city/town or another part of the country were the main local culture is more in line with your outlook.

        2. Persephone

          Hi, Sum Guy.   Have addressed the subject of alternatives to mainstream online dating in other post(s).  I will give more examples here:  Arablounge.com; Latinamericancupid.com; Latinopeoplemeet.com; Farmersonly.com and many more can be googled.  I met my guy through acquaintances, not online, but I did meet another guy online before that.  Nice man of Mexican heritage with my same values, looking for a wife. We had one date, talked a few weeks, but in the end I narrowed down to 1 out of the 5 contenders.  I hope you find better values on these sites as I did.

    2. 17.2
      Marika

      Persephone

      Is there any chance of you moving? What you described is abuse, the first physical (obviously) and the second, emotional. If abuse is that common in relationships where you live, is there a chance of leaving? As Sum Guy points out, that surely isn’t typical of the whole country? Be safe.

      1. 17.2.1
        Persephone

        Marika 17.2, the abuse toward women can be found all over the world. It’s not specific to the region where I live. However my region is relatively more paternalistic then the rest of the United States, because we have a culture that is a hold over from the colonialist attitude of the pre-civil War era. Some of mindsets that I personally object to are widespread across anywhere you might find Western Civilization, except that they are more pronounced here.

        Using the example of the 6 sixes, this indicates using superficial qualities on which to date men for online dating. Some of the other comments I read from other people are equally as disheartening. For example this comment about being as comfortable in heels as in jeans, or designer jeans at the Country Club. It’s just this whole materialistic seeing that I’m objecting to that is widespread in our society.

        If I were to move to escape it, it would have to be to some indigenous Native American community that is very isolated from all of this culture. ( haha and I’m dating such a man.)  I’m just fed up with a superficial attitudes in our culture on judging men and women for dating. Evans video is excellent, in that it explains the correct way to judge somebody, rather than their cup size but how good they’d look on a man’s arm. Or vice versa about women  using the 6 sixes.

        I would be hesitant to move, anyway, in the I don’t want to have to sit for the bar exam in a different state, and I don’t want to move away from my small ranch. This is Inherited property and it’s Irreplaceable. It would cost a ton of money to try to buy comparable property in a different location. It sits right on the river. I could look out my living room window of my rusted-out mobile home, and see the river.

    3. 17.3
      DeeGee

      Persephone said: “I’ve never used sites such as …

      I was on 50Plus-Club, eHarmony, HotForGinger, OKCupid, PlentyOfFish, and OurTime, for more than 5 years.  I let all of my subscriptions expire earlier this year (late spring 2017).  My profiles are all still online though.  IMHO they are a complete waste of time and money.  I actually got a much higher response than what is supposed to be the average.  Most guys say they are lucky to get a 10% response to their messages, I got close to 50%-60%.  I chatted with many women, went on a lot of dates, and I have even become long term friends with a few of them.

      Persephone said: “Of the significant relationships I had …

      I am sorry to hear about that.
      With me, if I see any red flags, which includes anything that does not align with my core values, such as anger or violence, I am out of there immediately.

      Persephone said: “… broadening the pool of individuals in which you seek dates.

      I would date a woman of any ethnicity.  Where I live in NE BC Canada, we were raised in a very multicultural society.  I find women from India and Asia and Africa just as beautiful as women from Europe or other areas.  We do have a large Indian population where I live, unfortunately most of them are in their 20’s, but most of them are very attractive.  If only I were younger (or very wealthy).  😉

      Persephone said: “… he left me standing in the living room on our first Valentine’s Day …

      Not all men are like that.  I definitely am not.  When I am in a relationship I like to spend a lot of my time with my woman.  Probably close to the point of smothering her.  🙂
      To give you an idea, one of the women I met on OKC two-and-a-half years ago, I am still friends with.  I would like to date her but she is not overly attracted to me in that way, so we have, for lack of a more precise term, a cuddle relationship.  She lives 275km away.  I drive that typically every second weekend.  I take her out for meals, we go to the lake, we go on hikes, we go scootering, we have BBQs, we do photography together, I help clean up and fix things around her house, we cut the lawn together, we went to the last fair and exhibition together and had a lot of fun on the carnival rides and games, and we spend a lot of time with me giving her massages and tantric touching (sometimes an entire day).  🙂

      Persephone said: “… assuming your ethnicity.

      My previous post should have given it away.  🙂
      “I look like David Caruso from CSI:Miami”, so I am a redheaded Irish lad.  2nd generation Canadian.

      1. 17.3.1
        Marika

        DeeGee

        To each his own, but in what way is the cuddle relationship working for you? It certainly sounds great for her. If you’re hoping that she’ll eventually fall for you with everything you’re doing for her – women don’t work like that. She’d probably be more attracted to you if you said that driving 200km to her house, taking her out and massaging her isn’t meeting your needs, so you’re off to find someone who is able to meet your needs, all the best etc.

        If you’re happy with getting so little in return, fine, but it’s just not sounding like a setup any guy I’ve ever known would be okay with, unless he was hoping for more. And it’s pretty clear she’s not going to give you any more.

        1. DeeGee

          Marika said: “… women don’t work like that.

          I know.  It was nice while it lasted.  We parted ways this month.  I was simply using my experience as an example to Persephone of how not all men are woman beaters.

        2. Persephone

          Hi, dee gee. My example about the wife beating was only the extreme of our culture. I’m also dismayed at the way people search for superficial qualities when looking for dates. I’m not happy dating within the mainstream culture of North America, which is where people come from in the online dating sites. I’m sure other cultures aren’t all perfect either, I’m just trying to think outside the box on who to look for in dating.

      2. 17.3.2
        FG

        FeeGee

        You have beta friend-zoned yourself. Get out and find somebody else. A last ditch effort to bridge the gap is permissible.

        Best of luck

        1. FG

          Apologies… F is right next to D

        2. DeeGee

          FG said: “You have beta friend-zoned yourself.

          Not at all.  I find it funny how people on here make assumptions without knowing all of the facts.  🙂

          Her and I met on a dating site a few years ago.  We tried things out at the beginning, she decided she didn’t feel the chemistry*, I decided she had too many red flags for us to be long-term partners.  I know that she really would drive me nuts long-term.
          * My feelings on “chemistry” are that it is “romanticism” crap, but I digress…
          We get along very well.  Our relationship isn’t sexual.
          I would still like to short-term date her or be FwB for a while (she has said she is not the FwB type), because we do really get along well and I think that would be even more fun, but we both know there is nothing long-term to be had between us.  We care for each other dearly, but we know that it wouldn’t work out as a long term relationship or marriage.

          So we have had a nice very close friendship where we have had a lot of fun together.  What is wrong with having fun with someone of the opposite sex for a while, where marriage is not of a concern?
          I drive to her place.  She drives to my place as well.
          We spend a lot of weekends together at her house or at my house.

          All through this entire time that we have been friends I have also been dating other women.  And she knows that and is fine with it.

          She also knows that she doesn’t meet my needs as a girlfriend – because I have told her exactly that.
          Recently I told her that we can stay friends but that I am going to be spending less time with her due to other things in my life right now.
          And we are still friends, we still chat and text, we still encourage each other in our fitness routines, etc.
          She still asks me about her man problems.  And she has admitted to me on multiple occasions that I have been a great benefit in her life because I have significantly raised the bar for what she will now accept from a man for treatment in a relationship.

          I fail to see why so many people on here seem to think that all relationships must be cohabitation/marriage or nothing at all.
          And that any man who is a friend with a woman is nothing but a beta loser trying to get into her pants.  Shame.
          I hope Evan doesn’t have this outlook on mixed friendships…

        3. FG

          Glad for you you had a good friend. Sorry for you it couldn’t reach a higher degree.

          As to the Walk of Shame through King’s Landing, Cersei did blow up all the instigators 😉

  18. 18
    Marika

    DeeGee

    You’re right that people on here jump to conclusions and project their fears and biases onto others. Some love to categorise people in an attempt to make sense of the world (as they see it).

    There’s nothing wrong with having a female friend. This, however is the problem: I would like to date her but she is not overly attracted to me in that way.

    All assumptions aside, you can’t be ‘friends’ with a woman you’re attracted to and want to date or sleep with. Friends don’t give day long tantric massages. If you read over what you wrote to Persephone, this is not a healthy friendship. You can continue it if you like, but it’s hard to see how it could work out well for either of you. You seem like a kind and giving man. Look for someone who deserves you.

    1. 18.1
      DeeGee

      Marika said: “Look for someone who deserves you.

      I agree entirely.  And I am looking for that, I have been for a long time now.
      I have been dating/connecting with other women on dating sites for the entire time that her and I have been close friends.  I have recently quit the dating sites though as IMHO they are a waste of time.  I have instead decided to try some other avenues of finding a girlfriend through some of the public get-togethers in our city.

      After her and I agreed that there will be no long term romantic relationship, I approached the entire affair between us as simply a short-term interlude of some physical connection between us, with possibly a long-term close friendship after.
      Keep in mind that I am the one who recently pulled back from this FwB-ish relationship with her, so I knew from the start that it was not long-term.

      Marika said: “This, however is the problem:

      I will agree that I have more of a physical attraction to her than she has to me.
      Part of that is that I am 55 and I look 50-ish, other than being more fit than most men my age (no pot belly), and I am also not follicley  challenged (I have a full head of hair).
      However, she is very young looking for a women in her late 40’s and she could easily pass for a fit 25 year old, especially her face.  She has no kids and works in health care.  She can easily get men in their 30’s.  And as some men would put it, she hasn’t “hit the wall” yet.  So I believe she knows she has options beyond me for choice (at this time).  She enjoys our time together as well, whenever I pull back she is the one who wants to continue our friendship (even without all of the things I do for her), she does consider me a very close and intimate friend that she doesn’t want to lose.

      Marika said: “Friends don’t give day long tantric massages.

      I would.  Would you like to be my friend? nudge nudge wink wink   😉
      I love doing that kind of thing with women.  And it is totally non-sexual.  I have done some of it with a few women I have been on multiple dates with as well.
      I will say that myself and this woman probably do have more of a FwB relationship than a regular friendship.  But I also get as much back from that touching as she gets from receiving it, so I don’t mind.  Most women don’t let you get that close to them, especially just as friends, so it is enjoyable for me as well.
      She probably came out ahead in the relationship overall, but I did have fun and enjoyed myself.  My previous relationships included women who were physically distant, to those who cheated, and at least my relationship with this woman was more open and honest and friendly and nurturing.
      I would say that I have had the most fun with her of any relationship that I have had.  Perhaps some of that is my own maturity, and lowered expectations, and perhaps some of it is that there was no pretext of a long-term/cohabitation/marriage relationship ever implied.

  19. 19
    RLM

    Oh gosh, you guys …

    I’m reading these comments and just feeling increasingly sad.

    There isn’t a way to search on the internet and find The Truth. We all, when that mood takes us, find things to back up our brain’s fear-predictions.

    It is possible to find love at any age.

    It is possible to find love at any age. I had to say that twice.

    But first, the requirement, the sacrifice, is that one has to do the difficult and important work of removing barriers built up against it.

    Shedding the bitterness of past disappointments

    healing past traumas

    recognizing our own stories and patterns that get in the way of our ability to see and connect with another person

    and – this is the big one- renewing belief that there are truly good men/ women out there.

    They may not look like our childhood fantasy. They *will* have their own issues. They won’t follow our script — and the longer we spent alone, the more time we’ve had to come up with a damn good script of what the “ideal man/ woman” will say, do, sound like, and look like!

    we just have to own and shed our own shit. Truly.

     

    And who cares about fads like “6 sixes” and “sexual market value”?? Those are things to keep us fear-oriented and stuck in negative predictions.

    The ones we meet, are sparked by, and stay with, even if they began with this kind of bullshit, will either let it go and see us as we are and see us as valuable, or they’ll simply weed themselves out by staying shallow.

     

    Ultimately, a good partner is a wonderful learning companion in this life, but the search is really a distraction from the work we’ve got to do on ourselves, our own lives, and facing our own shit & learning to love bravely.

    Love your built in life partner- you- with self compassion and acceptance and commitment to evolving, and the rest will fall together. I believe this.

     

    And no… I still haven’t found my life mate. I have a partner I am with and learning from and love very much, and I suppose we could be “proof” of the statistics listed here, as we are in our 40s and unsure we will marry.

    I have been too focused on marriage, as if it would make everything make sense in my life. I broke several engagements because I knew deep in my bones that I wasn’t myself yet (I was a sort of stepford girlfriend, just trying to please-) and that a marriage based on that would not last… and I’m not interested in making such a commitment unless it is a natural progression of a partnership that already is rooted in solid communication, respect, playfulness, and mutual evolving.

    So yeah. Statistic here, telling you all that the statistics are a big pitfall.

    We can feed our negative cognitive bias with pages of statistics, and create the very thing we fear — or we can get rid of the cynicism and believe that it’s possible to live a good life that is abundant in love and daily victories.

     

    I know which I choose. That may make me naive or a dreamer … and I’d rather live that way than suffer from things *that aren’t even happening but are just constructs of my own fears*

     

    you all sound like great people to date. There’s a reason why relationships don’t work out – they each have something to teach us about ourselves, if we get past our victim stories & approach relationships with curiosity.

    There… end of pep talk … good luck, everyone, I wish for you the partnership that you are seeking ❤️

    1. 19.1
      Persephone

      RLM, Nice comment, esp the part about ignoring all the 6 sixes and SMV craziness.

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