Beyonce, Lemonade, Cheating and Infidelity

LoveU-Podcast-Episode-25

Beyonce’s latest album was a confession that she was a powerful woman staying in a relationship with a cheating man. So why do men cheat? Why do women stay with them? How rampant is cheating in marriage, anyway? Tune in to the Love Podcast and I’ll break it all down for you.


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Comments:

  1. 1
    Adrian

    The Jay-z and Tiger Woods backstories is something I never thought about. These were both guys who barely if ever got any attention from women before they became famous.

    So I wonder is there some kind of study about guys who like Evan had lots of various women and sexual partners before they willingly decided to settle down.

    I wonder if those type of men are more faithful?

    I also wonder since sex is so much easier for women to obtain, does that affect the reason why they don’t chase sex as much?

    1. 1.1
      Christine

      I wonder about that too.  Maybe guys who’ve dated lots of women are more faithful because they’ve already seen what else is out there.  So they don’t wonder as much about what “could have been”, or what they might be missing out on.

      Whereas, I could see how a guy who settled down early might wonder more about what else is out there, just from not having really seen it that much.

      I suppose that’s a positive side of finding love later in life, as I did when I met my guy at 35.  I don’t feel any need to sow any more wild oats, because I’ve done that already and gotten it all out of my system (when I did that back in my 20s to early 30s).

      I don’t even feel tempted to cheat because I already know what those flings are like–and that it’s not as fulfilling as my relationship.  Even if I ever stopped being happy in my relationship for some reason, I would leave first, rather than cheat on the side.

       

      1. 1.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Christine,

        I agree. I also think it has to do with learning maturity and the true value of things that are NOT shiny!

        Think about it, if you have dated many different types of personalities and attraction levels of people, then you will be satiated both sexually and curiosity wise. You will know that losing  the 5 in looks with a great character is not worth it just to date the 8 in looks with a okay personality.

        But a man or woman who has never dated a really attractive person will choose chemistry of compatibility. Not because they are a bad person, but because they have not learned what is truly valuable yet.

        It is easier to turn down the new sports car for the mini van when you know that the van perfectly fits all your needs; needs that the pretty sports car can’t fulfill. But a person who has never experienced the burden of trying to drop your 4 kids off to school in a two-seat coupe, will wonder.

        I think men and women who never dated, or never had the chance to date someone they actually found attractive until later in life will be that kid in the candy store who hasn’t yet learned self-control.

        1. Christine

          There is something to that Adrian.  I’ve been there and done that with dating the 9 in looks (but 4 in character).  Later on, it was easier for me to prioritize compatibility, after experiencing the downsides of off-the-charts chemistry (but without any consistency or commitment).

           

        2. Adrian

          Hi Christine,

          I agree and I don’t think it’s only about looks. I think people who have dated a lot of people who they themselves find attractive know that beauty is only a piece not the whole pie.

          Someone who has never had that opportunity will jump on the first hot guy or girl that comes their way even if they are married because fantasies are more alluring than reality.

      2. 1.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Christine,

        Maybe guys who’ve dated lots of women are more faithful because they’ve already seen what else is out there. 

        There’s a counter argument I read on another blog that people who have lots of partners before they settle down always have a “greatest hits reel” of sexual encounters running through their mind … and thus have trouble settling down. I guess how sexually satisfied someone felt in a current relationship would be based on how good the sex was and how highly he/she valued sex.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          I don’t completely understand what you mean by greatest hits reel, could you explain it in context to cheating?

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          Greatest hits reel: A movie going on in your mind (or simply the remembrance of) the hottest sex of your life.

          The manosphere defines men who provide this for women as f**k phantoms: a man from a woman’s sexual past who lingers in her erotic memory, often the cause of intense longing, desire and withdrawal symptoms.

          I’ve got two of them. I don’t long for them but for the quality of experience they provided. They set a standard.

          So, if you aren’t having that kind of sex with your current partner, it can make it difficult to commit, depending on how important sex is to you.

          I have heard some women say they fell in love with a man and he became their greatest lover. I don’t know how that works. To me, sex can get better, but if it starts off mediocre it won’t suddenly become fantastic. Maybe other women could offer their opinions on that.

    2. 1.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Adrian,

      I also wonder since sex is so much easier for women to obtain, does that affect the reason why they don’t chase sex as much?”

      I think it’s a fallacy to state that sex is easier for a woman to obtain than a man.  That statement is predicated on an assumption that all available bodies are equal.  Both men and women want sex with people they find attractive.  So if five morbidly obese, snaggle-toothed, recent prison escapees with BO are the only people around me available for sex, I’m going to object when someone starts claiming I can get it whenever I want it because my reality is that there are no suitable partners available to me.

      Women don’t chase sex as much as men because there may not be attractive partners available to them, they have different priorities (valuing a relationship over casual sex), the sexual double standard is alive and well, and as a group, women’s sex drives are lower than men’s.

      1. 1.2.1
        Adrian

        GoWithTheFlow,

        In your opinion if a horny guy at a bar who is a 5 in looks walked up to various women who are 2-6s in looks, what are his chances that just one of them would have sex with him that night?

        No game, no courting, no commitment, just a proposition for sex.

        Same scenario but this time it is a woman who is a 5 in looks walking up to men 7-9s in looks at a bar, what are the chances that one of them would have sex with her that night? What are the chances that all of them would?

        …   …   …

        I understand and agree with everything you say (as always) the men available to her have to be men she is attracted to, and of course there are always exceptions to the rule; but on average women can have more sex than men. On average women can get sex with guys out of their league.

        A fat women can still obtain sex from a guy who is handsome and fit, a fat guy will not be getting his hands on any models. A broke average looking women can enter into a strictly sexual relationship with a handsome rich guy, a broke average looking guy will be hard pressed to find an attractive rich women willing to have sex with him once. A women who is ugly in the face but has a great or even average body, can have sex with a handsome, fit man. A man with an ugly face but a great body, will have to be really lucky to find a woman with a great face and great body willing to sleep with him.

        We are talking strictly about sex and not dating because then sure the rules change. Also again, I acknowledge that this all depends on if there are any available men she is attracted to enough to have sex with.

        On average guys will have sex with women below their league if they don’t have a regular supply they can access such as a girlfriend or wife. A woman he is not that attracted to is still better than his hand for most men. So if a handsome guy is trolling in a bar for a woman, I can almost guarantee you that a slightly overweight, average looking woman can have sex with him that night if there are no other attractive girls, or if the attractive girls are not giving him any attention.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I agree with all of your possible scenarios if all the woman wants is one night of sex.  The huge confounding factor is that on any weekend night, in any of your average type bars out there, a significant portion of the women have forming a relationship with a man as their primary priority.

          So the handsome guy with the six-pack abs is likely to strike out with the overweight average girls as much as with the hot girls because his priority doesn’t mesh with hers.

          If a woman has to/wants to be in a relationship prior to having sex with a man, then to her, not being in a relationship (being single) is a state in which she is deprived of sex.

      2. 1.2.2
        4star

        Hey GWTF!

        I respectfully disagree with you.  I, and just about all of my friends (man or woman), agree that it’s much easier for a women to obtain sex than a man, especially when it’s just casual no-strings-attached “for fun” sex.

        For me, this is just common sense; women are often the ones who are approached, and in general, men have the higher sex drive.  There are probably hundreds pieces of anecdotal evidence that people here can mention, and I am sure that if we cared to go looking, scientific studies would back it up.

        Your scenario concerning the “five morbidly obese, snaggle-toothed, recent prison escapees with BO” (LOL! Disgusting!) is just an extreme scenario that is never likely to happen.  Unless one lives in a really really small town of a few hundred people, I just don’t see how any woman who isn’t morbidly obese, or affected by some other major aesthetic disadvantage, couldn’t get laid if she wanted it.

        I’m a guy who is about a 3-4 out of 10.

        –Disclaimer: I’m just being objective here.  After 40+ years,  I am fairly sure of this estimate.  No.. this isn’t a plea for sympathy, lol–

        As such, I have to work very hard to have a shot at having sex with “less attractive” women.  Never had sex with a woman who turns heads.  I feel fortunate if I get it once in a blue moon.  I don’t bother with the bar scene or Tinder, because it’s just an exercise in futility, and awful for my psyche.

        Conversely.. and I am being literal.. I can’t count.. it’s probably dozens of female friends/acquaintances in that “4-5/10” range who I’ve known or know, who are able to get sex frequently.  I’d estimate at least 2-3x/week.  No problems.  (Obviously, they are single)  If I were asked to qualify these women’s looks?  It would be hard to do, but some commonalities include being about 20 lbs overweight, some with bad complexion, and most with average facial features. I know that’s arbitrary.

        Now, I’m not saying these women are having sex with really good-looking guys, and just briefly jogging my memory, I can’t seem to remember any such girl having sex with the prototypical male model.  However, the point is that they’re getting sex with ease.  They have a lineup for booty-calls.

        As an aside, it seems most of these women are naturally good talkers, flirtatious, and a few are sexually aggressive.  And along the subject of the podcast, a few of them have no problems screwing guys who are in committed relationships.

        Anyway, I just thought to interject with my opinion.  Thank you!

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi 4star!

          I think it is safe to say that women who are seeking one night of NSA sex can get said sex much easier than a man seeking NSA sex could.

          For women who need or want a relationship as a foundation for sex, they are sex-deprived to the extent that they are relationship deprived.

          There is a supply/demand imbalance at play:  More men than women want NSA sex, and more women than men want a relationship.

        2. 4star

          Excellent analysis, GWTF!  I concur.

    3. 1.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      Adrian,

      Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

      Are people who have premarital sex with a variety of partners more likely to cheat on their spouses?

      Are people who have premarital sex with a variety of partners more likely to remain faithful to their spouses?

      I don’t think there is a consistent provable correlation for either scenario.  I think what a person learns from and how they view their unique single experience is the key.  A man can look at his previous sexual experiences as a fun time of discovery and commit to bringing what he learned from that into his relationship with his wife with the goal of creating a strong and healthy sexual connection.  Or a man and his wife can fall into a sexual rut and he can look back on his single days and negatively compare what he has now to a past he may be viewing with rose colored glasses.

      1. 1.3.1
        Adrian

        Hi GoWithTheFlow,

        Religion says the chicken, and science says the egg… that evolved into a chicken??? I should have paid more attention in class. (^_^)

        I agree with you but I do feel that being exposed to variety early on helps you recognize a good thing when you have it, even if that good thing is not the best looking or thinnest of your available options. This is also why I feel that a person who is just getting back into dating after being away for years should not settle for the first person they meet.

         

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          “. . . being exposed to variety early on helps you recognize a good thing when you have it, even if that good thing is not the best looking or thinnest of your available options.”

          You are so right.  I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had because of what I learned and how I grew from it.

  2. 2
    Stacy2

    Hmm, not that I follow this stuff, but seems that Jay-Z wasn’t that “irreplaceable” after all? A cheating Jay-Z is better than no Jay-Z, that’s why.

    Adrian:

    I also wonder since sex is so much easier for women to obtain, does that affect the reason why they don’t chase sex as much

    I think you got that backwards. Women not chasing sex is the reason why it is easier for them to obtain, not the other way around. Women don’t chase sex because most men are bed lovers who fail to satisfy them in bed so it is not something that is worth chasing. On the other hand, men can get “satisfied” with (almost) any woman.

    1. 2.1
      Adrian

      Hi Stacy2,

      So does that mean that you and women in general are willing to chase a guy who is great in bed?

      If your boyfriend/husband is a great guy but he is only an okay lover in bed, and an ex who is a great lover wants to be your man on the side, would you consider it (not would you do it, just would you think about it) since to you good men in bed are really rare?

      How long would you entertain the idea before you turn the guy down? I assume you’ll say no since in my opinion you don’t seem like the cheating type.

      1. 2.1.1
        Stacy2

        Adrian:

        So does that mean that you and women in general are willing to chase a guy who is great in bed?

        Yes. I had done it when I was young and stupid and I have seen girlfriends do it to this day and age (it never ends well for women)

        If your boyfriend/husband is a great guy but he is only an okay lover in bed, and an ex who is a great lover wants to be your man on the side, would you consider it

        Me personally, no. I banish all ex-es from my life. I can see how some other women would consider it though.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Stacy2

          Do you think there is ever any reason to cheat?

          What would you do if your partner’s sex drive was higher?

    2. 2.2
      Chance

      Stacy2, I think another reason men seek sex more than women is because they have a much higher sex drive.

      1. 2.2.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        Bingo!

      2. 2.2.2
        Adrian

        Hi Chance and GoWithTheFlow,

        So in both of your opinions, what should a man or woman do if their partner slows down on the sex?

        It is her or his body, and you can’t force it, plus I don’t believe that sex, even in a committed relationship, is owed-it is freely given. However if you speak to that person about wanting more sex and they are not comfortable with your level do you dump them; even if they are a good partner?

        I ask because from what I have read, most of the science says that men and women’s sex drives increases during the lust stages of a relationship, but they always return to normal months later. I am not saying that a person should cheat, but going from having sex everyday for months to only once a week is hard, and you don’t want to leave the relationship because you love them.

        …   …   …

        GoWithTheFlow, in your opinion what is the difference between a threesome and cheating?

        I ask because I have seen when men mention this to their girlfriends, you would think he just told her he cheated.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I think finding a sex frequency schedule that works for both people is key.  As for negotiating that from a woman’s perspective (and I’m assuming she’s the one who is content with less) over the years I’ve seen many versions of the advice that Susan Walsh over at Hooking Up Smart summarizes as:   Accept that you are going to have more sex than you would if you alone set the pace.  I’ve also seen it described as “gracious sexual access” or making sure you “maintain your man on his schedule.”

          In return for being more open to a man’s needs, what I would like in return is consideration for when I’m tired, or stressed, or upset.  Also, several women I know in LTRs and marriages say that it is upsetting and hurtful when the only time their man ever touches them is when they’re seeking sex.  The hand holding while walking the family to the park, the snuggling on the couch when watching T.V., etc just disappears.  Make sure you maintain a certain level of non-sexual physical affection going.

          “GoWithTheFlow, in your opinion what is the difference between a threesome and cheating?

          I ask because I have seen when men mention this to their girlfriends, you would think he just told her he cheated.”

          Do you mean he suggests a threesome and his girlfriend says that must mean he wants to cheat on her?  Or that he shares with her had had a threesome previously and she thinks that means he cheated on his then girlfriend?

        2. Caroline

          @Adrian-while I realize you didn’t ask me….

          what if YOUR girlfriend wanted to add another man to your sexual relationship?

        3. Caroline

          From psychology today-

          “When love is involved in the relationship, it is not uncommon for intense feelings of jealousy, betrayal and anger to be experienced by the coerced party. In addition, when bisexual acts are expected, many individuals feel particularly vulnerable and upset. The entire experience can become explosive, resulting in the permanent breakup of the relationship”.

          Please note, the above occurs no matter if it uhh s 2 males with 1 female or 2 females with 1 male

        4. Stacy2

          What you do is try new things and work on your technique. The only times where I personally experienced a “slow down” is frankly in relationships where it was meh to begin with. Other women’s mileage may vary

        5. Adrian

          GoWithTheFlow,

          Caroline’s Psychology Today example is what I meant. Feeling betrayed because the man brought up the topic. If a man wouldn’t respect your no answer and keep pushing for a threesome, that I can understand getting upset over, but not anger over just the question.

          …   …   …

          Stacy2,

          If you have sex with only one person for 20 years, no matter how much you improve your technique or try new things, it will not excite you as much as the thought of having a new partner.

          I knew a much older guy who was a hardcore swinger (you would never guess it if you met him or his wife, both were very attractive and high-class). From how he tells it, there are more older couples swinging and engaging in threesomes than younger couples. He said it is easier to convince a woman to try something new when she has only been able to experience the same guy for the last 20 years.

          How did I meet this guy? He approached me and courted me (^_^).  Apparently I was suppose to be his anniversary gift to his wife. He didn’t come right out and ask, he befriended me, we hung out, and we had many lunches together.

          Then he invited me to have a few lunches with him and his wife (a way for her to have a look at me and decide if she wanted to sleep with me without my knowing), that escalated to hanging at his house just the three of us. All the while I suspected nothing, I though he was mentoring me, this was a one of the senior VP’s and I really respected him; I still do. Of course on evening when out of nowhere she sat in my lab, I knew something was up.

          This was not a creepy or slimy couple, just people bored in the bedroom after 40 years of being married. Messing with married women even if the husband is okay with it is not my thing, but I didn’t judge them sanctimoniously for what they do in their private lives.

          ….    …   …’

          Caroline,

          In high school I was seen as too sexually conservative because I didn’t want to watch porn with my friends. I couldn’t understand why any straight man would want to get a hard-on in front of other men, but they only saw me as being weird for not joining them (at 14 none of us had ever seen a naked girl before).

          In college my friends throw regular sex parties where there would be two or three guys having sex with one girl; there would be about 4 or 5 different groups having sex at the same time. I was seen as too sexually repressed because I didn’t want to go to any of those parties.

          Actually I think I was seen as boring. (^_^)

          And then we have my previous job were many of the older married women would “probe” me subtly to see if I was open to having a threesome with her and her husband, and some husbands told me they just wanted to watch, some wanted to let her watch.

          I wouldn’t admit it to any of my male friends, but one of the main reasons I left that job was because of all the aggressive flirting, touching, and discreet sexual invitations by co-workers.

          It scared me because I really wanted to say yes to each of them; it scared me because I enjoyed them touching me and inviting me; these were all very attractive women for their ages. But that is not the type of man I wanted to be; plus I felt that if I would have out right rejected them they would have felt embarrassed, which would have made working with them awkward.

          My point Caroline is, I know many women use the inviting another guy into the threesome scenario to scare off men from asking her again, but there are plenty of men who would be open to such a invitation, they would be okay with having sex with another man because:

          1. It’s still a novel sexual experience.

          2. Years of watching porn has made him open to the idea.

          3. They will use it against her later to guilt her into inviting a woman next time since she got a man last time.

          4. His ultimate goal is to get her to want threesomes, how she gets there is not the problem.

          5. He may be bi-curious.

          …   …   …

          Karl S,

          From what the science of men, women, and sex that I have read about says; the problem comes in when both parties assume we have the same sexual levels… on average.

          Men really love sex! But we also crave it. Women really love sex, but they just want it, they don’t crave it like a drug as men do… on average.

          Men get upset because women say they love sex and yet they don’t always want it. Women get upset because since men equate their craving for sex to loving sex, men will constantly push women for it when they hears women say they love sex.

          Men don’t understand that women can just really love sex without craving it; and women don’t understand that men don’t have a mental distinction between simply enjoying sex and craving sex.

          These are all generalizations of course.

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          “Feeling betrayed because the man brought up the topic. If a man wouldn’t respect your no answer and keep pushing for a threesome, that I can understand getting upset over, but not anger over just the question.”

          Got it.

          I think in this scenario, the boyfriend/husband bringing up adding another women is viewed by the girlfriend/wife as a criticism of her;  too fat, not attractive, not satisfying, boring, etc.  Don’t ever underestimate the body image anxieties that can be brought to the surface in a woman by anything remotely suggestive of her not being “good enough.”  The message is, “You don’t satisfy me, I want another.” (And please, no admonishing women to get over their insecurities.  If men were subjected to the unrealistic expectations women are, they would have a hard time trying to maintain a healthy body image)

          I also wonder how these guys are approaching their wives in this situation.  If it’s “Please do this for me.  Woman on woman action really would get me hot!” He’s making a request without considering whether she has any same sex attraction or not and he’s making it all about him.  He wants the woman on woman stuff so he can be entertained.  He’s not considering whether she sees anything in it that’s just for her.  It’s about her pleasing the guy.

          I recently read an article about a high end women’s only sex play party club called The Skirt Club  (go on and Google it).  The founder (who was bi-curious at the time) was introduced into swinging by a former boyfriend.  What she discovered was that she felt pressured to do it as a performance for the male gaze, not as something that was about purely her pleasure in exploring her same sex attraction.  She says her women’s only sex play parties are freeing for the women because of this absence of having to play to the male spectator.  This was the negative side of a threesome type experience for a woman who is bisexual, sexually adventurous, and confident.  So imagine how a non bi-curious, less adventurous, less confident woman would react to a request that she views as “perform for me because you’re not enough.”

          “In college my friends throw regular sex parties where there would be two or three guys having sex with one girl; there would be about 4 or 5 different groups having sex at the same time.”

          Holy crap!  College has sure changed since I attended in the 1980s.

          I have been approached three different times to be the 3rd.  Once, in college by a guy I was entangled with.  Never went anywhere.  Once by a coworker for her and her boyfriend.  Hell no!  She was icky and her boyfriend was a perv (he’s in jail now for having kiddie porn).  The 3rd time was a friend of mine who I knew well.  She and her boyfriend were heavily in to swinging.  If I was ever going to have sex with a woman it would have been her, but that was a bridge I didn’t want to cross because of the friendship.  Plus their relationship was on the downhill slope and I didn’t want to be around the crash at the bottom of the hill.

          Like you, I don’t pass judgement on what consenting adults do behind closed doors.  When I first learned at age 12-13 that men sometimes stuck their dicks in women’s mouths, I was horrified!  A few years later, not a big deal.  Over time I’ve learned that things that initially seem shocking, I’ve actually wound up enjoying.  I’ve also learned quite a bit about things I had no idea about from work.

          I found out what an alpha-sub was when a patient was injured during a BDSM session and had to have a bone set in the O.R.  (I totally cracked up when McLovin posted something, and yep–he was discovering the alpha-sub phenomenon.)  You also wouldn’t believe how common it is for people to “slip and fall” in such a manner that shampoo bottles, cue balls, and cucumbers get stuck up their butts.  I’ve also taken care of call girls, strippers, and other sex workers when they come in for cosmetic surgery.  They have ingenious ways of covering up the scars for their clientele. And all of the interesting piercings out there. . .

          I actually grew to respect the people who own their kink.  But what learned about myself was I would rather indulge my curiosity from a safe distance, and hearing other people’s stories is titillating enough for me.  I would be happy right now just to have vanilla sex with one attractive guy who wanted to hang out with me for awhile.

        7. Caroline

          @Adrian-as someone who works in a male dominated field, I quite frankly found your previous workplace quite frankly repulsive. Nobody should have to work in a place where they should be subjected to sexual advances. Especially by someone who is in a senior position.  While I’m sure you have some reason for thinking well of this guy in business; he’s a ticking bomb. Believe me, you’re not the first for this guy to have approached. While you were able to find another job; somebody else may have been in a situation where they truly struggled to find one to replace it. So, with nobody standing up for what is right; the unethical practice is allowed to grow in the silence. Your boss is most likely headed to professional ruin because he’s already crossed the line. How hard up for sex do you gotta be to let in encroach into your professional life where it will clearly spell out both professional, financial, and personal ruin?

        8. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          Men really love sex! But we also crave it. Women really love sex, but they just want it, they don’t crave it like a drug as men do… on average.

          NO. NO. NO. Women do crave it … but with specific men. That’s a huge distinction. Men seem to be able to scratch the itch with a WIDE selection of women. Not so with women, who, as a rule, are much more selective.

        9. Adrian

          Hi Caroline and GoWithTheFlow,

          GoWithTheFlow,

          I was going to reply to your statement when I realized what I was actually doing… I am a man trying to tell a woman how I know more about the experiences of women than she does!!!

          Next thing you know Evan is going to start calling me Mc-Adrian-Lovin, or Ob-Adrian-sidian (-_-)

          Caroline,

          You are always such a sweetheart. Don’t worry, my old job wasn’t a huge den of decadence, so don’t worry they didn’t all just surround me on day one saying, “fresh meat!” (^_^)

          It was my first job straight out of college when I was 22 and I worked there until 3 and a half months ago. So all the inventions to join affairs and the sexual fantasies of my various co-workers were spread out over an 8 year period.

          I did not met the VP and his wife until about 5 months before I already knew I was leaving. Plus I didn’t realize their intentions until his wife just out of nowhere sat in my lap one night while we three were hanging out at their house, until then they were the sweetest people to me. I recently just turned down an invitation from them to join them for the weekend in their cabin-I said they were sweet I didn’t say they weren’t sneaky (^_^).

          The reason I don’t judge people is because of terrorist. I know it sounds silly but witnessing how they try to force their moral views on others and anyone who disagrees is evil and worthy of social ostracization (which is death). These are people I don’t want to be like.

          Yet when I hear people use the same moral superiority to justify hating swinger couples or anyone who doesn’t practice the normal sexual kinks (a.k.a what is accepted by society) in their own private bedrooms-I think they are only a few steps away from screaming we should kill them.

          If a man or woman wants to betray THEIR partner, and THEIR marriage, I can only assume they have their reasons, as long as they don’t bring me into it personally, who am I to judge?

          I just choose to walk a different path, not a superior one.

        10. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          There are countless studies that show that men have higher testosterone than women, men’s brains separate sex and love while most women’s don’t, and men think about sex more than women, so I won’t focus on those points.

          I’ll focus on lack of self control as a example of why one gender craves sex and the other just really enjoys it. This is the reason I believe that men crave sex and women don’t because most (not all) men will have sex with women who they don’t find attractive or whose personality they can’t stand. Anything to get that orgasm.

          Most women (not all) will go years without sex if the only available men are men who they are not attracted to physically, or mentally, or morally. Some men will have sex with women they finds repulsive to get an orgasm, but most women won’t let a obese smelly man touch her sexually, let alone let him enter her.

          …   …   …

          Okay I will quote one study. A few years ago I read a study about infidelity (in a book not on the internet) that suggest that men and women cheat differently.

          Women who cheat plan out affairs, even “spontaneous” ones are really calculated, looking at all the possible outcomes. The research showed that women (on average) don’t just give their hearts, emotions, and bodies to just some random guy for a long-term affair. It is usually a guy she has pre-screened.

          Men who cheat on the other hand do the opposite. They see an opportunity and they take it, risking everything for the orgasm without considering the consequences.

          This study wasn’t saying all men are cheaters and all women don’t give in to spontaneous passion, it was just saying that in their cravings for sex and variety, men are willing to lose everything just to get an orgasm and women are better at delayed gratification because bonding is more of their goal than an orgasm.

          The fact that women who cheat (on average) are able to use self restraint when it comes to sex, while men who cheat (on average) can’t, is why I believe that men crave sex and women want sex.

        11. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          Men who cheat on the other hand do the opposite. They see an opportunity and they take it, risking everything for the orgasm without considering the consequences.

          I’m going to have to disagree. I don’t doubt that married people cheat, but I don’t think it’s as rampant as you think.

          Granted, my sample is small, but from what I’ve seen, the average guy who has a decent marriage and access to regular/serviceable sex isn’t going to “risk everything” for some random one-off. Most people aren’t looking for some “big passion” or “big feeling.” Their lives are predictable and safe, and that’s the way they want them.

        12. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          “This is the reason I believe that men crave sex and women don’t because most (not all) men will have sex with women who they don’t find attractive or whose personality they can’t stand. Anything to get that orgasm.”

          Why IS that?  When a man has his hand, pornography, and sex toys that simulate a woman’s vagina, why would he choose instead, to orgasm with an unattractive woman with a nasty personality?  I don’t get it.

          Now wanting to have sex/an orgasm with a woman who is attractive and is pleasant to be around, I GET that!  Because that’s what I want:  Sex with a pleasant attractive man.  As opposed to an orgasm with a vibrator, or none at all.

      3. 2.2.3
        Karl S

        “Seems to me the basic conflict between men and women, sexually, is that men are like firemen. To men, sex is an emergency, and no matter what we’re doing we can be ready in two minutes. Women, on the other hand, are like fire. They’re very exciting, but the conditions have to be exactly right for it to occur.” – Seinfeld. 

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Karl,

          LOL!

          My friend’s husband (married 35 years) says men are like microwaves and women are like crockpots.  The food gets cooked but one is ready way before the other.

    3. 2.3
      sandra

      Gotta admit it Stacy2, when you are not talking about money, you are, well, right on the money!

  3. 3
    John

    I’m a tall good looking guy and integrity is the most important trait I hold myself to.

    What is interesting is that when I am on a date with a woman, other women are always checking me out. The woman I date always notices, but I do not notice it.

    Many times the women I date get upset with me about women checking me out. I laugh because it is do ridiculous that a woman gets mad at me for being desirable to women.

    I’m not even aware of it and my full attention is on my date. I don’t buy into her insecurities and I laugh and say to her, “that just means you’ve got good taste.”

    I find that the women I date think that I would cheat on them because women are attracted to me and if we move beyond dating and are in an exclusive relationship, she doesn’t believe I won’t cheat.

    I’ve never cheated on any my girfriends and having trust in our relationship is very important to me. I’ve even had women cheat on me because they cannot believe I wouldn’t cheat on them because of all of the female attention I get.

    My point is Evan is correct that serial cheaters won’t change and you can’t identify them by looks and female attention. If you meet a guy and you watch his integrity more than his income and education level, you will become aware that integrity in a man means more than anything else.

     

     

     

     

    1. 3.1
      A

      John, I beg to differ but women as a rule don’t get upset if other women check out their dates. That’s confirmation that they did good. It’s called pre selection; especially if the women checking you out are good looking. On the other hand, if you ogle other women while on a date or out with your woman, then she will be upset and rightfully so.

  4. 4
    GoWiththeFlow

    Evan,

    Thank you the podcast!

    I haven’t seen the Lemonade video album, but I’ve heard a lot about it.  I think it took courage on Beyonce’s part to expose that aspect of her relationship with Jay-z to public scrutiny.  Women, especially rich or beautiful or powerful women, are often strongly derided when they choose to remain in marriages when their spouse has been unfaithful.  It is viewed as a spineless, brainless thing to do, especially if the woman expresses that she is staying “for love.”

    I am old enough to remember when Hillary Clinton had contempt heaped on her because of Bill’s serial infidelity.  She was simultaneously blamed for his unfaithfulness, and criticized for “putting up with it.”  There was also an overtone to some of the attacks on her that a woman being married to and choosing to stay with a cheating husband lost all claim to being considered a feminist or an empowered woman.  It’s interesting that Beyonce’s artful treatment of her husband’s infidelity is considered by some to be a feminist act of empowerment.

    1. 4.1
      Stacy2

      Let’s call a spade a spade. Powerful women are staying with their cheating husbands for the same reasons that regular women do – because it benefits them in one way or another, it’s a calculated decision based on self-serving interests. Love? Puuleease.

      For the reach and powerful the stakes are even higher. HRC not only stayed, but also helped discredit and bully women BC had affairs with… Had she not done that, she would not be making millions giving speeches and be on a major ticket right now. So, she did it for her own ambition. These women are neither victims nor empowered. Simply calculating. Which isn’t a bad thing, but let’s just not invent labels here.

      1. 4.1.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        Stacy2,

        “Love? Puuleease.”

        You just illustrated my point.

      2. 4.1.2
        Chance

        Spot on.

      3. 4.1.3
        GoWiththeFlow

        Stacy2 & Chance,

        Look at old Ann Landers columns where her signature advice to women with cheating spouses is, “Are you better off with him or without him.”  Look at what the mental processes are of the women that is reflected in their letters.  The hurt, the anger, the humiliation, the fear. They mull over the financial implications of a divorce.  Whether he is an involved parent or not.  The quality of the sex they have.  The context in which the cheating happens.  And they also talk about whether they love him or not.  These are not cold calculating decisions devoid of human emotions.  Often the emotional element is the driving factor in their decision.

        “Simply calculating. Which isn’t a bad thing, but let’s just not invent labels here.”

        Isn’t that what you just did?  Slapped a trite label on a very complicated decision making process?

        And if Beyonce felt empowered by her decision, who are you to tell her she’s not?

        1. Stacy2

          “Are you better off with him or without him”

          I am sorry, how is this contradictory to what I said about this decision being calculated?

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Stacy2,

          Calculating implies no emotions are involved.  Especially since you used that label in the same comment where you dismissed any role for emotions in a women’s internal decision making process with “Love? Puuleease.” 

           

      4. 4.1.4
        Adrian

        Stacy2 and Chance,

        It appears that it is hard for both of you to believe that rich successful women are capable of actually placing love over money; so now I am curious if either of you would place love over money or money over love?

        Personally I think women and men place love over money and statues all the time. I’m  not talking about for a cheating spouse, I am talking about taking a large pay cut by moving to support a spouse, or letting years of hard work to build their careers go to stay home and raise children, or distancing themselves from well connected associates because their spouse felt jealous, uncomfortable, and so on and so on.

        There are many examples of women giving up statues, powerful positions, and money for love. I don’t know if Hilary or Beyonce’ chose to stay married for love or money, but I do find it interesting that you two can’t even see it being a possibility.

        So my question to each of you is would you sacrifice half of everything you have now for love? Do either of you think any politician, celebrity or famous athlete could give it all up for love? Or do you both believe that no person would give up statues and wealth for a spouse?

        Sometimes the reason we can’t even fathom people doing certain things is due to the fact that in our own realities people don’t do it-because we won’t do it.

        …   …   …

        To be fair Chance, I kind of lumped you in with Stacy2 without fulling knowing what you were agreeing with her on.

        Were you agreeing with her that in your opinion Hilary and Beyonce’ stayed married for the money or were you agreeing with her when she said,

        “Let’s call a spade a spade. Powerful women are staying with their cheating husbands for the same reasons that regular women do – because it benefits them in one way or another, it’s a calculated decision based on self-serving interests. Love? Puuleease.

        In this statement she is implying that all women with money and/or statues remain with cheaters to gain something NOT because they are emotionally hurt and conflicted which is causing them to hold on to the possibility of love as GoWithTheFlow is saying.

        1. Stacy2

          I guess I don’t care about this issue enough to write a long response to this. What I want to say is this. Of course we’re all emotional creatures and emotions/feelings are always involved. However most women wouldn’t base such decisions on emotions. You feel the emotion, you wallow in it ,then you turn your brain on and ask yourself “are you better off with or without him?” And that my friends is a calculating decision.

          Personally i have never been cheated on (that I know of obviously), but theoretically speaking, any love I may have felt would have instantly evaporated if I was publicly betrayed and humiliated in a way that HRC was, for example. I might have stayed, but not out of love that’s for sure.

  5. 5
    A

    Stacy 2,

    We all know you’re right!

  6. 6
    Suz

    Cheating is a character defect.  It’s a selfish and defiant behavior that destroys relationships and is self destructive.  It also indicates a lack of self control and generally an ability to lie on a pathological level.

    Sorry for them but I’ve paid the price and dug deep on two long term partners…one a husband of twenty years and another a fiance if a five year relationship.  Neither wanted a breakup over their mistake. But the reality is that trust is the foundation and cheating is the ultimate betrayal. You can forgive but you never forget.  It destroys the “victim” spouse.

    I promise you, it has nothing to do with sexual satisfaction, general state of happiness and overall success of the Chester’s primary relationship.  It’s their empty void which nothing can fill.

    A fellow might be a terrific catch on all apparent visible levels.  However, I often ask after 2 or 3 dates what happened in their marriage, etc.  And most truthfully answer if cheating was involved.  A few will defend with “the only once” and a sad story about the state of the marriage by then….no sex for years, kids, money, the other woman came on to them, etc.

    I don’t want to come off all judgy.  But it’s not like I wasn’t presented extremely tempting opportunities when the relationship was in a rough patch or there was just a 10.0 chemistry earthquake and I was traveling on business.

    But if I am pledged heart and soul I am all in.  All my love, energy, life plan commitment and the beauty of that one safe, loving, fulfilling rock in the universe kind of lady.  And that person trashed that?  Us?  Sorry defective person and how you will forever Mourne my loss.

  7. 7
    A

    Hi Suz,

    Not to sound too judgy either but if 2 of your long term relationships ended up with them cheating on you, you might want to self reflect as well. They might have a totally different story to tell. Plus it might make you feel good to think they’re mourning your loss or the loss of the relationship when in actuality they’ve moved on or worse they feel relieved.

  8. 8
    Alison

    Hm. fascinating. I have been on most sides of this situation and still am. I would say that some, men and women make quick impulsive and very determined decisions sometimes based on morals and sometimes emotional/financial, fear, or ego. Others  make more thoughtful considered decisions, and perhaps these decisions and the reasons even waiver and change over time either to stay or to leave, or to return. The word calculated does sound unemotional and as if ‘love’ , compassion, understanding, or tender feelings and attraction, perhaps even sexual/emotional satisfaction did or does not exist.  (We do not know about the Clintons and   all their motivations, trials, realizations, but Bill’s gaze sure resonates admiration and love as does their daughter’s –  NOW,  presently,  for Hillary) The truth may be far more layered and complex. Indeed  love can exist along with ‘calculation’ – thoughtful assessments. As to women not craving sex/touch —that is very untrue for some of us.  Context indeed may have a role  in  how we choose to act or NOT act on that desire. Also consider exposure to danger  and disease (which no one has mentioned and statistics point to a very harsh reality) Sometimes we, women,  are the ones who want more contact, sex, touch, passion,  and feel deeper loss when deprived of it for long times.  Some men are happier to go ‘solo’ to preserve their freedom or out of fear of intimacy, performance, responsibility, or even discomfort with affection. All these things can change over time and with age and experiences, changing needs and desires. Sometimes couples can recognize what was driving their behavior, recognize what is important, be  it love, sex, money, glamour, family, travel, shared  children, homes- whatever, and make new agreements. they can  choose different behavior and develop character. Sometimes.  As to early experience,  I know several couples who remained dedicated together since their teen years. Not to say they did not have doubts or perhaps other longing, but enough was there to preserve and grow depth and happiness,  and for both individuate  develop deep deeper connection. Some of us (who have had multiple partners or encounters)  have not necessarily learned to pick better , nor understand the incredible possibilities with attraction, trust, vulnerability, and commitment. Some are satisfied with casual, others long for more.  Some are content with compartmentalized relationships, and others want to intersect more areas of their lives.  And some have and are lucky to know how to choose better and establish trust, commitment and satisfaction, joy, ecstasy later in life, even late in life. (I’d like to consider that person – me , and invite a match ).

  9. 9
    tash

    well said and I also had a crash on somebody and he showed me enough interest in the beginning and gradually before I tell him that I like him , he  was roaming with his girl friend around of me and I didn’t said anything . I just pretended that it didn’t matter to me even though it really did . I was so jealous and hurt at the same time. I mean how can I say anything as with me he showing as if he is interested in me and telling me all about his ex girl .He was saying he gets bore after knowing 25percent of the women he is dating . I mean what does that mean and why he is telling me this stuff. I really got hurt as I really like him and I found him attractive but if he is in a relationship, why would I ruin other woman who ever is having with him. So, I stopping talking to this guy forever. But it is too difficult to get over with him as he is keep popping in my head. Yesterday , I saw him in my dreams. It is really frustrating sometime . That’s life.

  10. 10
    tash

    I don’t know what to say as there are always surrounded by people who cheat both men and women. Both the sex cheat all the time and yet there are few who left unspoken and  don’t know whom to trust . I think it is your karma, weather you will get the right one or not. If you failed to get the right guy again it is your karma. May be you did the same in your previous life and that’s why you got to suffer this time.  So one should be very careful not to come in between relationship. One should date the man or the women only and if only when he or she is absolutely single. Never ever steal some ones’ bf or gf. or wives or husbands . I learnt this in my early age as one my school teacher ran away with some one’s husband and the poor wife had three beautiful boys who were just 2,3 and 5 yrs in age. How painful was that moment for the poor. I was so sympathizing as I still do remember that and I thought I will never do something like that. I means it is scary if I myself is in her situation. Unlike USA , in my home country government don’t help if you have more kids .One have to provide everything by their own. That’s the reason I turn  off from that guy who I really like. In my case, He wasn’t married but he was having an affair so I thought I should not steal someone boy friend no matter how much I like him. I mean you know what men don’t give a shed but we women are most of the time think about other people before we commit something. I know at the end ,it says like what goes round come around. That’s life what can we do . You cant force him to love you. If he is my karma he will come and if he is not then he wont. Life goes on and on.

     

  11. 11
    JP

    Evan, great podcast. I think it is a bit one sided versus people who cheat. Any one person in the world is capable of cheating if the right circumstances are in place. Life is unpredictable, one never really knows how one will react to a tragedy, multiple things of chaos, etc.  You work on helping people grow and open up to seeing how their behavior affects their love life, yet when it comes to deal with a person who say cheated for 9 months, your opinion is strongly bent against seeing this person as anyone worthy of being in a relationship with. Please understand that people who cheat and engage in long term affairs are people who have hit rock bottom, many of them start with an opportunistic lie, their brain chemistry is affected and continues on a bottomless pit of lies as they get sucked in deeper and deeper. When and if that person finally wakes up (usually its through more suffering “consequences” due to losing a loved one who found out or losing their whole self), they are very much aware that this behavior is what got them into hell, and many, many cheaters grow up and choose to change their ways. What I got from your podcast is that these people are humans that are kind of spoiled goods. In a way, at the time they are cheating, yes, their brain chemistry and abilities from telling what is real and not real are completely not balanced.  However, I believe all humans are capable of growing, changing and taking a stand for values they choose to embrace.  There are many women and men who choose to stay with spouses who had an affair, many of these spouses see the changes I described above in their cheating spouses. Evan people deserve second chances to grow and change.

    1. 11.1
      Chelsea

      Thanks for sharing this. I really dislike this lack of compassion and – dare I say – calculating view of throwing away or rejecting people who have a bad track record with fidelity. I am a fundamentally good person.  I cheated on my ex-husband for four months before he found out, I confessed, and we got divorced. In our case, there were problems in the relationship that we both felt couldn’t be solved that led to my affair, so we separated. I also cheated on my first serious boyfriend in college, because I was too immature to end it. I learned a lot from these experiences, and grew a lot, and would never find myself in this situation again. And, could have gone on to achieve that same growth if I’d chosen to stay in my marriage. I love this blog, and I am sad to have been characterized as one of these spoiled goods human beings who should fall off someone’s check-list of only choosing people who have never cheated.

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