How to Date When You Want to Have Biological Children

loveupodcast-episode-63

I’m not one of those guys who thinks that you should go to college to look for your husband. However, if you want to have your own biological children, you are better off taking your love life seriously in your early thirties, instead of putting off dating until your late 30’s. This week’s Love U Podcast is vital information for any woman who wants to bear her own children.

Why Women Who Want to Have Kids Should Date in their Early 30s

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Comments:

  1. 1
    MilkyMae

    Great podcast. In my opinion, women in thirties looking to have a baby feel a increase in vulnerability while dating.  The men they are dating have something that they want and that’s not the way they want to feel. They don’t feel in control.   You have to be able to handle the vulnerability.  Women respond this vulnerability by bringing up kids in the first 5mins of a date or by withholding their own wishes for as long as they can because they don’t the baby-hungry label. If you want to have a child and your online profile says “someday” or “not sure”, you have one huge strike against you.  If must know before the first kiss, then you have another strike. I hesitate to say this but, some women view this vulnerability more troublesome than an IUI or IVF pregnancy and single motherhood.

    1. 1.1
      Will

      Wow.

      Volumes can be written in response to this.

      I’ll start by saying this is a good example of how women want to have no vulnerabilities or disadvantages. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

      Try being a man. Then you’d have the disadvantage of knowing that a woman can become a parent without any participation on your part, and you’d feel vulnerable knowing that even if you do start a family with a woman, she can always divorce you and take your children away.

      It’s also a good example of how a woman takes her ability to bear children completely for granted.

      Try being a man. Then you’d have no ability to bear children. At all. With someone else within out out of wedlock. With or without any artificial means of conceiving. You’d be completely dependant on a woman to have a child. For women, there is the option of Choice Motherhood. For men, there are no options.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        For men, there are no options.

        Depending on his financial situation, he could pay for a surrogate. Plenty of gay male couples have done that. Or he could adopt.

        1. Will

          As a woman of childbearing age of any financial background can have a child.

          No agencies. No applications. No fees.

          Don’t need to prove that you’d be a fit patent.

          It’s totally free.

          Not so for men.

      2. 1.1.2
        Stacy2

        Well that isn’t exactly true now is it? Men can have children via a surrogate. Commercial surrogacy (ie for hire) is legal in CA and a number of other places. I know several gay couples who had multiple kids this way.

        1. Will

          I love it.

          What percentage of women in their prime can have children without any scientific or commercial assistance?

          What percentage of men of any age can have even one child without scientific or commercial assistance?

          Surely the same percentage.

          Now please excuse me while I place my Amazon order for a surrogate child and then run an errand to adopt a kid at the kid dispensary down the street.

          BRB!

        2. Will

          know several gay couples who had multiple kids this way.

          You mean wealthy gay couples.

          Curious what percentage of the world population you think they constitute.

        3. Emily, the original

          You mean wealthy gay couples. Curious what percentage of the world population you think they constitute.

          Not sure, but based on my extensive research of Ricky Martin and his partner, I bet a majority of the couples are impossibly good looking.

           

      3. 1.1.3
        ScottH

        Will- I’m surprised someone else hasn’t chimed in yet but it’s kind of futile to argue this.  Men can’t have kids.  Period.  What else would you like to talk about?

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Yes Scott – Will’s angry little diatribe makes no sense at all.  Getting into a tizz over an immutable biological FACT is rather futile.  Men getting angry at women for the biological fact that we can bear children, is like men getting mad at men for the biological FACT that men don’t ever have to carry a child to term, or have a monthly cycle.

          It’s one thing to point out the pitfalls, vulnerabilites, etc. of these BIOLOGICAL differences, it’s another to go off on any angry rant about those.

          Will needs to chill.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          oops “is like men getting mad at men for the biological FACT that men don’t ever have to carry a child to term,” should be “is like women getting mad at men for the biological FACT that men don’t ever have to carry a child to term,”

        3. Will

          We can talk about why some posters are having such difficulty understanding that men can’t have kids.

      4. 1.1.4
        KK

        Will,

        “I’ll start by saying this is a good example of how women want to have no vulnerabilities or disadvantages. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch.”

        Neither do men.

        “Try being a man. Then you’d have the disadvantage of knowing that a woman can become a parent without any participation on your part…”

        Zero participation? Really? Are women now capable of impregnating themselves??? Wear a condom until you’re ready to reproduce. Problem solved.

        “…and you’d feel vulnerable knowing that even if you do start a family with a woman, she can always divorce you and take your children away.”

        Same goes for women. The only thing anyone can do is choose their partner wisely, be a good partner themselves, and hope their partner doesn’t change. If divorce does occur, 50/50 custody is quickly becoming the new norm.

        “Try being a man. Then you’d have no ability to bear children”.

        Take that up with your creator. Being angry with women doesn’t change biology.

         

         

         

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Just to add, if men are unhappy “. . . that a woman can become a parent without any participation on [men’s] part. . .” then stop donating to sperm banks.

      5. 1.1.5
        Stacy

        @Will

        We also have to go through childbirth (like, the MOST excruciating experience EVER on average), carrying around the child for 10 (not 9) months, gain weight, possibly stretch marks, breast feed, get stitches in the hoo ha (for many women), see a period after having the baby for sometimes more than a week and close to two.

        In general, we have to have a period (at best uncomfortable and at worst painful) once EVERY SINGLE month until menopause.

        So excuse me while I don’t take it seriously that life is not fair for men simply because they can’t actually  birth a child. It damn sure isn’t fair for women either. Gosh, do you men want EVERYTHING?

         

        1. Will

          . Gosh, do you men want EVERYTHING?

          That could be asked of women who have all the advantages of being a woman and have been pushing for decades to have all those of a man.

          Or wait…. there are no advantages to being a woman, because some people feel there are no such advantages.

  2. 2
    Stacy2

    In this age group, we’re talking 35+, men reveal their hand pretty quickly i think. No need to bring it up on the 1st date, but it will come up quickly.

    Funny story, when i was OLDing, a guy contacted me and he answered “no” to the kids question. I responded saying that was a deal breaker, to which he responded back and literally said “well what if i changed my answer?”. Ok, doesn’t want kids and dumb also. May be don’t change that answer, not everybody should reproduce 🙂

    1. 2.1
      Will

      Should you reproduce, Stacy?

      Do you have to convince anyone that you’re fit to do so?

      That’s one of your countless luxuries, Stacy; you don’t have to prove anything to anyone in order to reproduce.

      However, that guy does, as do all men.

      Sure is good to be a woman!

      1. 2.1.1
        stacy2

        Hey, look if you are trying to convince me that most men are rather uselees creatures who are good for nothing, you are (1) doing a good job but (2) preaching to the choir

        1. ScottH

          Stacy- we’re not totally useless.  We kill spiders and change light bulbs.

        2. Buck25

          Stacy2

          Really? Gee, I’d have never guessed you felt that way, based on your usual commentary here. /sarcasm

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          ScottH,

          And guys know how to grill meat on the barbecue.  I’ve literally turned $1,000 worth of meat into charcoal in several ill-advised attempts at grilling in my lifetime.  I now do what I realize I should have been doing for years:  Find the nearest man.

        4. D_M

          GoWiththeFlow,

          James Peterson, Done: A Cook’s Guide to Knowing When Food is Perfectly Cooked.

        5. SS

          You already know I love you.  Ha

      2. 2.1.2
        Stacy

        @Will

        Again – women in the good ol’ US of A weren’t even allowed to vote until 1920 and many women are oppressed in most non Western countries. Yeah, it’s great being a woman (only because we can reproduce – which we get stuck with the brunt of the childrearing anyway even though, thank goodness, that is changing somewhat in many families at least here).

        I am not complaining but sometimes it is good to look from the perspective of the other side to appreciate your position.

        1. Stacy2

          heh, the whole notion that “women can have children for free” is simply moronic. Nothing is “free”, women labor very hard physically to bear and deliver a child, the associated lower productivity and downtime has a real economic cost (not to mention our employers like to under-promote us for the mere fact that we may have children and require a downtime, regardless of the fact whether we actually will or will not) and in fact the cost of surrogacy is the exact free-market determined monetary representation of what it in actuality costs us to have that “free” baby. Heck, i would love to have somebody else bear and birth my kids and get all the “pleasures” of pregnancy while i bullshit clients at conferences. I would also love to postpone that until I am like 48. I think it is unfair that only women can bear kids and can only do it till about 40 also. Where do I sign the petition to change that? I am even prepared to wear a pussy hat and to march on DC if we can change that. Will, you with me?

        2. Will

          I am not complaining but sometimes it is good to look from the perspective of the other side to appreciate your position.

          Interesting that it’s you who are giving this advice.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Stacy2,

          One reason I went the adoption route instead of the artificial insemination-possible IVF route was because the financial risk if I got pregnant then had complications, like prolonged bed rest, where I couldn’t work.  And TBH, I had already experienced the miracle of birth with my older son so it wasn’t like by choosing adoption I would give up the chance of ever experiencing pregnancy and birth.

          But back to the subject at hand, you are correct, there real and ongoing economic costs to having and raising a child.  If a woman is married, she shares that with her husband.  If not, she bears it alone.  Kids are anything but “free”.

  3. 3
    Chris

    I haven’t listened to the podcast in full, but you do read stories of many women who have found their fertility declining even as young as 30. I think that if you want biological children you should ideally start looking in earnest in your mid-20s. It sucks that women have a far shorter timespan to work with compared to men, but that’s the way it is.

    1. 3.1
      Sue56

      I disagree with that to some point as fertility is very individual.

      You get a guide from your nearest female relations of when you are likely to hit the menopause and are unlikely to bear anymore children but this guide ignores any  individual fertility problems you may be born with or your partner has.

      I was born when my mother was in her 40s. My sister had a healthy first child at 47.  My step-mother had a child at the same age. However one of my step-mother’s daughters,  while she got married in her mid-twenties,  was unable to give birth to children. Due to this one of her younger sisters’ rushed to get married, married a douche bag, had kids in her 20s and ended up separated in her 30s.  This younger sister found she like her other female siblings and mother actually had no problems getting pregnant,  and the doctors had scared her needlessly due to one sister.

      Someone I know hit the menopause  at 42.  Her sister who was 40 sought out IVF and discovered that she didn’t have enough eggs so it wouldn’t be successful, which isn’t surprising.

      Someone else I know mother struggled to have her due to her mother’s own fertility issues.  My friend then had issues with her menstrual cycle and found out she was likely infertile at 20. So she made peace with it and instead of seeking to have children, has made herself happy other ways.

      Another woman I knew mother and sister had no issues. However she found out at 21 that she had hormone problems so was infertile. She was devastated.

      So I wouldn’t tell women to rush unless some of their female relations hit the menopause around their late 30s and 40s.  Even then rushing or not rushing there is no guarantee.

      1. 3.1.1
        Sue56

        I forgot to add to my reply my sister didn’t want children. Her other half convinced her to try due to family history and the fact she was still menstruating regularly. Likewise I have other female friends and acquaintances with one child who had that child in their 40s for the same reason.

  4. 4
    Masha

    Men give life. Women dont have sperm. That  is why they are men and we are not.  Stop comparing women to men and men to women. Our society is too focused on trying to be identical rather than being partners and understanding gender needs. It sucks that men can always give life and we have a time limit but that is how it is. A woman has to build a career and life and have children within  the right man in a short window of time. It takes longer now to buy a house go to school get a good payong job than 40 years ago for everyone.  I think there is too much pressure to have kids because of the  biological clock. I know many young people who cant get pregnant and I know sexy 40 something ladies who got pregnant later. Find the right man first. There is more to having a kid than being pregnant. Also dating using to be different. When you were dating bringing up the topic of kids was not so percieved as threatening. Today women are scared to turn of men off  by saying that having kids is something she wants. Guys automatically assume if she is on a date with them, that she is on some clock ticking mission. No. It should mean that  having kids is  something she wants with the person whom she marries who ever that person may be. It shows what she values. In previous times dating was with the intention to  possibly marry that person if  that was the right person.  Today, you go on a date  and when you date the guy you have no idea where the relationship is going. The oops you got pregnant in some cases. The reasonpeople dont know where the relationship is going is because they havent discussed it. this is because people are afraid to say what they want and dont want. My point is, that being in your 30’s and wanting kids shouldnt be seen as a clock ticking mission. Younger guys are also dating older women. Also if you are in your late 30′   Its not only about the woman. Men have to have good sperm count too. My neighbour is a good example of this. He is in his late 30’s and cant have more kids. The point is nothing is cut and dry carved in stone. That being said, My point is if you want to have kids be ok with it. If you want to ha e a fulfilling relationship and cant have kids, then focus on your relationship adopt, do other methods etc. But be content regardless.

  5. 5
    Masha

    @Sue56

    thanks for sharing. You echo my sentiments very well.

  6. 6
    Old Mama

    Great podcast! But, I would like to hear some perspectives on women OVER 40 who still want to have kids. This podcast is obviously saying to WAIT and find love first. I feel, after actively dating for years, that I waited too long. By the time I met the “right guy,” I was 39 and after lots of fertility problems, we were not able to have a baby, and it probably ended our extremely short marriage. Then I was single and still wanting a child and well into my 40’s.

    I am now pursuing being an “older” single parent. I think, at this point, I have to go on that guy “hiatus” as Taylor mentions. Dating while actively seeking to become a (non-biological) mother is kinda crazy. Men my age already have children and generally don’t want more (especially a baby!). I feel selfish, I do, but I have so much love to give to a child. I can’t stop trying. It’s been a long, hard journey. As Evan said, in your late 30’s it gets hard. In your 40’s it gets harder. My timing was just off.

    I figure if I can ever find my way to a child, then I can be a “woman with a young child” and a guy can decide if he’s interested or not. But, being a “woman (of my age) still wanting a child,” is just hard in the dating world. Evan, whose mentoring and opinions I respect, mentioned one woman who became a single mother and never found her man. Sure, that happens. I know many single mothers, though, that have met husbands. I would love to talk to Taylor.  I think she is young enough that she still has time (but maybe start saving for those expensive fertility costs now! And set a deadline). I wonder, though, if many of my relationships didn’t work out when I was younger because I wanted a family so much. It was unfair pressure. I figure getting pregnant on my own is taking the pressure off.

    I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t want to give up on love. I desperately want to date and have companionship, but I can’t put off the baby thing anymore. I wish I was 30! Of course, there is the choice of not having a child, or adopting, but the fact remains that most men my age are no longer interested in having a baby. If older men are more likely to be interested, then even less likely…but, I know, it only takes one! If I had a question, and being in the middle of fertility treatment, is do I have a right to date at all? (The fertility may not even work).

    Sorry for the long post. I wish I could find others like me (please reply if you know a forum!). My heart goes out to Taylor and all the “older” women (and men!) out there trying to have a child and navigating dating at the same time! There’s got to be people like us out there…

  7. 7
    Kate

    I have some practical and heartfelt advice for the guest, Taylor. You can have the relationship first, then a biological baby if you want to, just like Evan says. But you should very seriously consider freezing your eggs. NOW. This should be your first goal in my opinion. Don’t wait.

    I think you said you’re about to turn 37. Egg freezing still has very reasonable success rates when eggs are frozen at 37. Keep in mind that the success rates reflect the age at which the eggs are frozen (NOT the age of the mother at the time they are used). You’re at an age where egg freezing is still a viable option, but you’re approaching an age where statistics show there is another big drop off with fertility (generally around 38-ish…..and sadly, most women are infertile by 43, 45 for sure…..people who do IVF at 45+, unless the woman has frozen her eggs when she was younger, are mostly likely using donor eggs and doctors will tell you this). Any reputable reproductive endocrinologist will tell you that egg freezing is not an insurance policy for success – it merely preserves your chances. But eggs frozen at 37 will have a much greater chance to result in live birth (even if you don’t use them until 10 years later) than the old-fashioned form of baby making just three years later at age 40. This can be hard to believe because it’s only a few years difference, but it’s absolutely true.

    At the very least, go to a reproductive endocrinologist for a consult and ovarian reserve testing (though age is still a more important factor than ovarian reserve; this is true even if you still have regular periods, don’t be fooled otherwise!). Take this from someone who froze her eggs a few years older than you are – it gets substantially harder to get a decent number of eggs the older you get, they are apt to be less viable, and it costs more as you’ll probably want to do multiple rounds of it to get a decent number of eggs. Do it now, and you’ll be able to get more eggs with less medication, fewer rounds of freezing and therefore less money. It’s essentially the first step in IVF, so think about it as getting that under your belt and out of the way now should you need IVF later (once you find your spouse!), or if you decide to become a single mom. Age really does matter. Evan is absolutely correct in referencing this. It is reality. I wish someone had helped me to better understand the full implications of this when I was your age so that the chances of my frozen eggs working would be higher.
    And wrap up your “guy-aitus”!  Get back out there! Don’t waste another day of your future getting over your past!
     

  8. 8
    Rachel Smith

    I agree with Kate and have a little more to add.
    I’ve done extensive research on the egg freezing process and actually did three rounds of egg freezing myself at 36. I’ll be turning 38 in two months. Before I spent thousands of dollars on the process I wanted to make sure that had a decent probability of it working. As an engineer I researched for an entire year reading everything I could about egg freezing and IVF. I found there’s a TON of misinformation out there and most of the egg freezing statistics that people quote is based on bad data.  I really dislike it when news articles, blogs, the media, etc. repeat this misinformation as a fact and Evan’s re-quote that “women have been sold a bill of goods by doctors”, is not true. Let me give the breakdown of why this 20-30% chance of success number is wrong and what the more realistic success rates are.
    The study that is most widely quoted is a 2013 meta-data analysis (where data is combined from multiple studies) done of more than 2,200 cycles using frozen eggs (http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(13)00519-0/fulltext). The study predicts about a 20% chance of having a live birth with egg freezing after not one but three rounds of IVF.
    Most people never look to see where this meta-data gets its data from. The data was pulled from studies based on patients who froze their eggs from January 1996-2011. The ASRM only lifted the experimental label off egg freezing in 2012 making it available and popular to the masses.  So who were these pioneering women that froze their eggs from 1996-2011? Women with infertility issues!!! One of the top pioneering fertility doctors, Kutluk Oktay, referring to the analysis was “a bit surprised to hear the 2013 meta-analysis was being used to argue against elective egg freezing. He sees it as a slightly conservative assessment, as it draws from data from infertile patients, who likely have poorer outcomes than healthy women freezing electively”.
    So that 20-30% chance is based on egg freezing with infertile women. The type of egg freezing we are talking about is with healthy women who could probably get pregnant today.  So the data is pretty poor and makes egg freezing look like it has a much poorer outcome than reality would reflect.  The reason why I believe it is so often quoted is because that was the only data we had at the time since egg freezing for elective purposes in fertile women is so new.  Now that more women are freezing the eggs and using them we are seeing better data.
    So what are your actual chances? Based one of the most premier egg freezing clinics- new preliminary data has been pulled.  Basically they can look at your potential success rate based on your age and number of eggs you freeze. They have done 1,171 egg freezing cycles for 875 women, 117 of these women returned to undergo 128 IVF cycles, using a total of 1,283 frozen eggs.  https://www.shadygrovefertility.com/blog/treatments-and-success/egg-freezing-success-rates/
    Based on the data from their actual (yes, healthy) patients who returned, they estimate that a woman aged 30-34 who freezes 12 eggs will have about 65% chance of having one child. In the 35-37 ages range it 60% and in the 38-40 range that number drops to 40%.  A lot of women may be able to get 12 eggs in one round, the younger the easier it is in general to get that number.  Amazingly, they estimate that in the 35-37 age range, if you freeze 30 eggs you have a 90% of having at least one child. At 36, I ended up getting 50 mature eggs myself after 3 cycles. My first cycle I got 20 the last cycle got 12, so even in one year I saw a drop.
    Yes, the ideal age to freeze your eggs is before 30 but very few women will do that as they still have hope to meet someone since they are so young. I thought I would. For the rest of us that didn’t have this foresight I would say for sure seriously to start to research at 35. The last possible year (for most women) to do it and have a chance for a favorable outcome is 38 from all the research I saw. If you look at the graphs- you’ll notice the drop off really happens at 38 (on average), not only are the eggs worse quality but you’ll have to do even more cycles to gather a decent amount of inferior quality eggs. I wanted to have at least 2 kids so I did 3 cycles. To do my 3 cycles it took about a year- it’s not easy on the body but perfectly doable.  If you want to wait to the very last possible minute- I would say take your 36th year to research (read books, find a great clinic, look at the Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology data to compare clinics). Then do your cycles at 37 so you are completely done *by* your 38th birthday.  If you are 39 or older you really want to have children, you should strongly consider freezing embryos with a sperm donor instead of eggs. Embryos are a lot hardier than eggs and at this stage of the dame point your freezing eggs that aren’t great quality.
    I would definitely tell Taylor to go freeze her eggs immediately. If she has average fertility for her age, if she gets 12 eggs has 60% chance of having a baby, even higher is she does more rounds and freezes more eggs!
    A Public Service Announcement- your mileage may vary (YMMV)- there are some women who are infertile at 25 and some women who had the first kid naturally at 44.  I agree there are absolutely no guarantees when it comes to fertility.  I could go use my eggs and discover I had some genetic chromosomal abnormality that made them bad and there was all that money down the drain. I could meet the guy of my dreams and he could be infertile.  Life is precious and there are no guarantees with fertility and I fully understand that- I’m not betting that these eggs are guaranteeing my chances of having a child. However, for me a 20-30% chance is a 100 times better than an almost 0% chance at 44 for a biological child. If it didn’t work I will be so glad not to have any regrets about it- at least I tried! But in reality it’s not a 20% chance, the younger you freeze your eggs and the more cycles you do on average, the higher you can have those odds be in to 60-90% range.
    My final advice to women would be- definitely go to a Reproductive Endocrinologist (not an OB/GYN) and get your AFC, AMH and FSH checked- whatever your age is. It’s good to check to see how you are doing. If you haven’t found a partner, freeze your eggs by the time you turn 38.
     
    Follow Evan’s advice and believe in love (I definitely will!), but have a Plan B! If you can afford it and your approaching or over 35, go freeze your eggs and don’t wait, 37 is a critical year and way to many women spend too much time thinking about it past then until it’s too late.

  9. 9
    GoWiththeFlow

    Taylor,

    I so know where you’re at.  I was there myself 10-15 years ago.  It seems the more you hear the advice to just relax and focus on meeting men and having fun getting to know someone, the harder it is to do.  It’s like trying to run a marathon while ignoring an ingrown toenail 🙁

    I think Evan’s advice is good.  You still have time to work you plan A.  If it helps to make you feel more in control and alleviate your anxiety, focus on your Plan A, but do some research on your plans B and C.  This sounds like what Kate and Rachel have done.  If you can afford something like egg freezing and you’re interested, now is the time to do it.  It won’t guarantee you a child, but it will guarantee that it’s still a possibility.  And start saving money.  Even if you meet your future husband tomorrow, nothing in life is guaranteed.  If you get knocked up naturally, great!  If not, having some extra money socked away will give you options whether you are on your Plan A or Plan B.

    In the meantime, end your guyatis!  Of all of the mistakes I have made with dating and men–and there were many–the biggest was going on several rounds of guyatis.  Once you stop dating, you get used to things as they are and it’s difficult, and anxiety provoking, to overcome your own inertia and get out there again.

    Good Luck!

  10. 10
    Confused Girl

    Hi Evan! I firstly would like to say that I have been coming to your website since I started dating actively around a  year ago. I think your articles are almost always spot on, despite having many critics from both feminism and manosphere groups. I sincerely think I would pay for your service if I had more money but going through residency with meager salary and medical school debt is already pretty tough as it is..but still thank you for those free yet useful contents. It is nice to read the comments too especially from others’ experiences. Now back to my case, ever since I read Evan’s Finding Love Online I have invested in both free and paid online dating sites. For the past year I have laughed, cried, and learned. I think being vulnerable has definitely helped my self growth.

    I am going to be 30 this year and I already feel rushed as it is. I think once I miss this period (30-35) it is going to be difficult since the dating pool will be smaller and I might have less time for dating..and yet, the time is ticking! I think having a family is wonderful no matter what people said. However dating in this current modern world sometimes can be very, very confusing. I didn’t realize it until now.

    A lot of women found the new manosphere movement /red pill/ mgtow is distasteful and mean; and I do too. More scared than disdain actually. Roosh v basically said he wanted to legalize rape so women will have more self-preservation as in not going with anyone drunk. I don’t drink alcohol and I never, ever put myself in situation where I could be compromised. Anyway, I read that many men are taught to incorporate tactics or some sort of “game” to make women do what they want, which is sex. And you can’t know it from the beginning, can you? I remembered reading an article somewhere saying that men have to create anxiety for women and be aloof so they will have sex with them. That is confusing, really. When I had sex with guys it was always with someone who had treated me nicely (or beta-ing, maybe they would say), made me feel good and happy. So what kind of “game” these people are talking about? I actually picked up The Game by Neil Strauss a while back and I read a bit of it; but I couldn’t relate to it. I just didn’t understand how ignoring the girl or being aloof will get the girl.

    Isn’t the point of this movement? Be mean to girls in order to have sex with them and discard them once their sexual market value plummeted? And a girl is only as good as her age and attractiveness? Now I do think that a girl’s age and attractiveness is much important to a guy than vice versa. But I guess my point is, do these guys who post this kind of article REALLY think that badly of women? I guess I already have the answer…which is mean people will always be mean no matter what their gender is.

     

  11. 11
    Emily

    This is a great topic Evan, thanks for having this discussion. I am a fan, trust me- I’ve read your book and read your articles, listen to your podcasts. However, this is a topic that I feel strongly that you should be careful with the statistics thrown out there.

    Yes, a lot of women wait until it’s almost too late, panic, and then think they should freeze their eggs at 39 or try alone over 40. It’s that suspension of disbelief that applies to a lot of us when we are 30. My doctor started hinting at my age when I was 31 and then gently kept at it until I was 34. At that time I just thought that “if it happens, it happens”. A few failed relationships later, I DID freeze my eggs right after I turned 36. The issue is that most women don’t think they need to proactively spend $12k thinking they may not find the love of their life in time. It’s a reality and becoming more popular, but doesn’t really hit home in time for a lot of women. Luckily, for me, it did. You can’t measure fertility other than what the numbers show, and unfortunately, they don’t show quality.

    The statistics you shared about a 20-30% chance of having a baby with frozen eggs after 35 is not necessarily accurate. Not because anyone is lying, it’s because the data isn’t there. Most women who freeze their eggs do not go back and try to  use them, hence, why there is no real accurate data. My fertility doctor- who is one of the pioneers of egg freezing, feels that I have a better chance of having a baby at 38 with frozen eggs, than I would at 38 with my normal fresh eggs. And this is with the knowledge that my test results and numbers are well above average, as well as the fact that I’m in good health. It’s data and science- I have 17 frozen eggs. They want about 15 on average to yield a good chance of one baby. In reality, it only takes one.

    I get what you are saying- unfortunately, most of us think it won’t happen to us. I have lots of older friends that know they “missed the boat” and by the time they thought they might want kids, it was likely too late.

    But….be careful with the statistics. Age doesn’t lie, but the data isn’t there. What would be a great topic for a podcast is if 35+ women should share that they did freeze their eggs with potential suitors. We’re kind of damned if we do, damned if we don’t, and I would love to hear what men think about this.

  12. 12
    Kate

     
    I was so glad to read Rachel and Emily’s posts.
     
    First and foremost, I agree with Emily. A fantastic topic for a future podcast would be: how/when do you share with a potential suitor that you froze your eggs?  It’s such a personal thing. And specifically, do you reveal this in an online dating profile to avoid being screened out? (especially if you are 40+ ?). Interest in this topic will only increase given egg freezing is no longer considered experimental and is becoming much more common. It would be very interesting to hear a guy’s perspective.
     
    Some additional comments on what’s been said already regarding egg freezing:
     

    The labs freezing eggs before about 2012 or so, were likely using older freezing methods (“slow freeze”) which have been replaced in very recent years by a process called vitrification which freezes eggs much faster, before ice crystals can form which can damage the eggs. So this newer technology may have a positive impact on outcome and statistics. And as Emily points out, there’s not a ton of great data out there because not enough women have come back to use their eggs yet.  Doctors often cite IVF results as an approximation – but then there’s fresh vs. frozen; and if you’re talking frozen, IVF results probably reflect frozen embryos and not eggs which may be different. So, the data question is really tricky for so many reasons.

    The SART data can be a helpful resource. https://www.sartcorsonline.com/rptCSR_PublicMultYear.aspx?reportingYear=2015
    It’s fuzzy to me if the new data also reflects egg freezing (vs. full IVF), but regardless it reveals the importance of age at the time of any freezing event.
    As Rachel points out it can be sorted by clinic, but remember that different clinics treat different populations. For example, some may treat a lot more patients with diminished ovarian reserve (DOR), causing their live birth rates to appear lower than average. Some clinics shy away from taking older patients or those with DOR because these patients deflate their statistics (sadly, it’s true). So take individual clinic results with a grain of salt.

    As Rachel stated, make sure whoever you go to is a reproductive endocrinologist. But also make sure they are actually board certified in reproductive endocrinology (not just gynecology). There are some reproductive endocrinologists out there who are not board certified in reproductive endocrinology (only gynecology). Reproductive endocrinology is a subspecialty of gynecology and you really need someone with this extra level of formal training AND certification.

    I believe the perspective has actually evolved in the last couple years on freezing embryos vs. eggs for 40+ers. As Rachel states, it did used to be that freezing embryos was the recommendation. But there is now data out there that supports freezing eggs only, even in older age groups. This is, in part, because the technology has improved. I had this exact conversation with my doctor who is a world expert (yes, really) in the 40+ age group and a pioneer in egg freezing and he supports 40+ers freezing eggs (vs. embryos) and this is a data-driven perspective.

    Remember that by age 38, and this may be hard to hear, you’re already dancing on the edge of infertility. This is obviously not true for everyone but fertility varies GREATLY from person to person. Emily is right – most of us think it won’t happen to us. One of the clenchers is that you don’t want to wait too long only to find out that your ovarian reserve is on the low end of normal for your age, or worse yet below normal, and then have a hard time getting enough eggs. So get tested NOW.  But age is still more important than ovarian reserve. A 40-year-old with lots of eggs left is still 40 years old and her eggs will be MUCH less viable than a 36-year-old’s. It doesn’t matter if you live a healthy lifestyle, exercise regularly, eat well or have never smoked or done drugs – and any doctor will tell you this.

    My perspective is that if you are 38+ you should seek a doctor specializing in fertility in older women, or ”diminished ovarian reserve”. The bottom line is that egg freezing protocols are different if you are older/have low reserve and you need to go to someone with a lot of experience with this population to ensure best success. I was 40+ when I started my egg freezing project. I thought my first doctor had this experience; she didn’t. I ended up seeking a second doctor who is a world expert in the 40+ age bracket and I had better results despite being almost a year older when I found him. So believe me, it matters. For reasons too numerous to go into here.

        7. The fertility decline at 38 is steeper than the one at 35. And after 40, as my doctor said –
    “it’s not just a cliff, it’s a waterfall.” I can attest to this as reflected in my results which I
    saw decline before my eyes over time.  Don’t wait! I can’t overstate that enough. Do
    enough due diligence to be comfortable with it and to help you select an excellent
    doctor – then act!  40 is NOT the new 30 when it comes to freezing your eggs.  It can
    seem daunting, but the process truly is not as scary or as bad as it might seem.  I would
    do it again in a heartbeat.

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