Dating the Divorced Guy – an interview with Jonathon Aslay

loveu-podcast-episode-41

There aren’t many men who do what I do, but Jonathon Aslay is one of them. He’s a good friend who helps middle-aged divorced women through the dating process. Although, he is one of the sweetest guys in the world, we tussle in the middle of this podcast about what kind of questions you should ask on the first date. It’s juicy stuff and useful to see things from both sides. Lemme know what you think.

To learn more about Jonathon Aslay, click here to visit his site.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Adrian

    This has been Evan’s BEST interview to me! 

    This is the first time I ever wanted to listen to one of Evan’s podcast more than once.

    I have to agree with Evan, even when Jonathon reframed the questions politely, they still screamed test to me-being tested is insulting.

    But on the other hand, I can see where Jonathon is coming from by saying someone should not have to fake or lie about who they are just to win a man or woman-it is “perceived” as degrading.

    Plus as Jonathon said to spend weeks becoming emotionally invested in someone just to find out that they have a Huge deal breaker is heartbreaking.

    Also as Jonathon brought up, shouldn’t a man deciding to treat a woman financially on a date be seen as something voluntary? A positive part of his personality, so how is a woman requiring a man pay the first few dates not a test? Seems like a double standard.

    ….     …..     …..

    Jonathon really opened my eyes today. I never realized how unbeneficial it is to date a divorced person; I never though about it before but it seems “for me” they are best to be avoided in dating, especially as Jonathon said, someone who married young and divorced 20 years later.

    ….    …..    ….

    As far as waiting to tell people things that could cause them to break up with you, I wonder what is the difference between just being a manipulative person and a person who waits until you are invested in them emotionally before telling you something huge because they know you will stay?

    ….    …..    …..

    If a person told me while we were in the bed room right before sex that she had an STD, I would be completely blinded!

    Being in love with that person would make it worse because then I would be conflicted and feeling guilty. I would not want them to feel ashamed, but at the same time I would be hurt and angry that they waited to tell me.

    Though Evan is right, if they would have told me before I become emotionally invested, I would not have even hesitated for a second to end the relationship.

    1. 1.1
      Marika

      Adrian, he’s saying to be mindful of someone who is very recently divorced or still separated, not to avoid divorced people entirely! He also seems to be talking about divorced men specifically with kids, definitely not all divorced people.

      Depending on your age group, if you avoid all divorced people, you’re really narrowing your dating pool. There is also something to be said about people in a certain age group who’ve never been married. You could judge them too, if you’re that way inclined, as potentially commitment phobic etc.. Never, ever date based on fear and negativity. You’ll have a lot more luck and enjoy it more if you’re more open minded & don’t assume things about a certain group of people based on one interview.

    2. 1.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Hi Adrian,

      I don’t think that divorced people are to be avoided as dates and potential partners.  Marika is right, once you get past the late 30s age range, a lot of the single people you meet will be divorced or will have been in long term living-together relationships.  In general, people who have been divorced want to be in a relationship, they just had one fail.  Once they have that 18 months to 2 years after the divorce to grieve and to get their feet back on the ground, they themselves aren’t any more of a relationship risk than someone who has never been married.

      There are considerations if someone has children and has to work around joint custody issues.  If you are in an LTR with someone who is a parent, you have to be ready to take on a step-parenting role.  It’s entirely reasonable to not want to take that on in a partner, especially if you are young (20’s to mid 30s) and there are still plenty of never-been-marrieds in your dating pool.

      As far as Jonathan’s advice to put it all out there up front, vs. Evan’s advice to reveal yourself organically over time, I think it’s a balancing act.  If you really are compatable with someone, you will be able to discuss awkward or difficult topics in due time. If someone dumps all of their negatives on you upfront, it can be a turnoff since you’re missing nuance and context.  On the other hand a person keeping something major from you for a long period of time, because they “know” you will dump them if they reveal it, can indicate the person has serious trust issues and/or anxiety issues.

      Another thing to consider is how such information and questions are delivered.  If a man said to me on a first date, “My ex-girlfriend is my best friend.  I hope you don’t have a problem with that.”  I would really feel put on the spot.  However, if we had an ongoing rapport where maybe he told me a funny story about something that happened to his best friend “Jane” and later I found out how they originally met, then I haven’t been put on the spot and I’ve also gotten to know something about how they became friends and how that friendship operates.

       

      1. 1.2.1
        Kareen Loy

        Very good points go with the flow.

    3. 1.3
      S.

      Jonathon really opened my eyes today. I never realized how unbeneficial it is to date a divorced person; I never though about it before but it seems “for me” they are best to be avoided in dating, especially as Jonathon said, someone who married young and divorced 20 years later.

      I had read your comment before I listened to the podcast. I thought it would be very negative about divorced men.  It was and wasn’t.  I think Johnathan recommends a healthy caution and just advises to give divorced folks enough time to heal.

      1. 1.3.1
        Adrian

        Hi S,

        In comment #25 you said “I didn’t get all of my questions answered in the podcast but I remain cautious with divorced guys. Most I meet, even ten years later after the divorce, are still stuck on that relationship.  Not the woman, but that marriage casts a wide shadow.

        ^^^This was the impression I was getting from Jonathan’s advice. It was not necessarily the ex that they are stuck on but the repercussions of the divorce, such as: lacking dating experience from marrying young, not realizing that they want to play the field and see what is out their, being stubborn or stuck in their ways because while married they did it like that for years, bemoaning their lost time, lost money, their lost youth, paying for children, going in debt as a result of the divorce, paying alimony, losing the house or car, not having the time to spontaneously date if they have children, refusal to do certain things or give certain things in the relationship because of how their ex responded to it, etc

        Their are a lot of great divorced women and men out their, I just never considered the work I would have to go through dating them just to find a good one.

        1. S.

          Ah, I see now.  Before I listened to the podcast myself, on your comment alone it sounded like dating a divorced person would be a negative thing.

          But good to know it’s work.  One of my friends (divorced twice) says it’s always work. Young people, older people. Never married, divorced.  People come with baggage.  I guess it’s up to us to choose which baggage we want to work with and if the person is worth it.

  2. 2
    KK

    Video won’t load.

    1. 2.1
      cindyp

      Thanks for letting us know, KK.

      1. 2.1.1
        KK

        Working now. Thank you!

  3. 3
    AG

    i totally agree with Evan here. I most likely eventually wouldn’t have a problem with a guy i’m in love with keeping a friendship with his ex. However, if he put it out there on the first date it would REALLY turn me off.

  4. 4
    Malika

    This podcast is indeed one of the better ones. I like the back and forth of your discussions, and I really liked the fact that you both argued your views very well, while still being respectful towards each other.

    I like that Jonathan doesn’t demonize divorce. He’s done it, he had the ambition to marry and he made a good effort at it. They are not automatically problematic people, that will guarantee a bad relationship for the next person in line. I am glad you are so positive about people who have been through something that can still be stigmatized by society.

    If asking direct questions works for you, go for it. People are usually pretty honest, they feel no need to lie about where they are in their lives, and what their goals and priorities are. And yes, qualifying your prospect is very important. I find that people reveal themselves very quickly. Evan advocates that you need a couple of months toget to know someone initially, but people usually show their true colours WAY before the two months are up. They really do vomit up the information, as Evan says, whether it’s through organic conversation or as a result of being asked direct questions.

    Having said that, if someone said the following on a first date, i would be extremely reluctant to go on the second date.

    ‘Tell me more about your traumatic childhood after my probing question caught you out.’ I would avoid such types of questions or answer in a very bland manner as i think that is way too TMI. As for that being an eventual dealbreaker, i would hope that the person i am dating would develop a broader view on people who didn’t have the sunniest childhood ever. Speaking from personal experience, my (sometimes) traumatic childhood was difficult to come to terms with when i was an adult but it taught me grit, resilience and, most important of all, a greater empathy towards others. Adults evolve, and not all are the puppets of the childhood that was thrust upon them. They bring added wisdom, just like the divorced people Jonathan mentions later in the podcast.

    ‘I am best friends with my ex.’ I would wonder why on earth you would be telling me this on the first date. Are you secretly pining for her, hoping you will stay in touch at a later date? Are you going to talk about her endlessly? Please note that it is not the fact that your ex is your best friend (That’s cool, it shows you are able to form healthy relationships with the past women in your life), but that you felt the burning need to tell me during our first date.

    Lastly, I LOVE that you want to take turns in paying the check. It makes the women feel less like they are being paid for favours due, but more as equal partners for whom you have much more to offer than a well stocked bank account.

     

  5. 5
    Mary

    The topic is a great eye opener.

  6. 6
    T ken

    What a great interview, thank you.

    I’ve been divorced for over 10 years, involved with two LTR. In both cases, the men had old girlfriends they either supported financially and continued to stay in touch with and both, when I asked to have her over for dinner with the  two of us, declined. There is so much more to these stories but suffice to say, it took years for me to rebuild trust in myself and my choices.  Now, here’s the deal, I tried being “cool” and “grown up” about these two relationships as we were building our own but in the end, it shattered trust and came damn close to shattering me.

    Jonathon’s ex-girlfriend being his best friend is very cool. But, I would dare say, if he told me that on the first or second date 1) I’m sure I would have a inner reaction 2) If I asked honest questions of it, I would feel defensiveness and push back, more importantly, I’d like to be reassured I wasn’t an accessory to it.

    Does that make me not “grown up”?

    My grown-up response would be “when can I meet her?” and right along side of it would be some insecurity and curiosity, would he judge that in me?

    We are the sum of our own experiences. I’d like to think I stay open to all the possibilities, I search my own beliefs ,  the reasons for attracting men who are not 100% available.  I take 100% responsibility for my choices and…this one confuses me.

     

  7. 7
    Nichole

    My dating thus far has been more in line with Jonathan. Unfortunately, hasn’t gone too well. Taking more of Evan’s advice and I’m getting better results. As Evan said, anyone can give you lip service and answer the questions “correctly”. The proof is in the behavior and it takes time. Have fun, observe, and see how things unfold.

  8. 8
    Michelle

    I don’t always agree with Evan but I would rather be on a first date with him than Jonathon 🙂 Being “tested” is a huge turn off and I am 100% in agreement with Evan that the first date is for having fun and getting to know each other organically.

    However Evan may not like my preference to take turns planning and treating. The country  I live in is more egalitarian than the US and it would be make me uncomfortable to have a guy pay every time.

    1. 8.1
      Marika

      I’m glad you raised this, Michelle. I agree that there are cultural differences that we need to consider when implementing this advice. While the underlying message is always fantastic, personally I think sticking rigidly to all Evan’s advice like ‘rules’ if you’re from a different culture is not always a good idea.

      If we waited for men to initiate all the contact, plan all the dates and pay, even in the early stages of dating, the marriage rate in Australia would plummet! Men just aren’t quite as forward and confident in all cultures. After the first or second date here, you would definitely need to start doing some planning and paying, or the guy would either think you weren’t interested or feel used.

      The only men I’ve known to keep pursuing me even when I wasn’t planning anything in return (and in my 2 1/2 years of being single I could give Evan a run for his money in how many dates I’ve had!) were guys who were either clueless or insensitive/narcissistic guys who didn’t care about my feelings and pursued relentlessly anyway. For most guys here, no matter how happy you were to hear from them & how much you enjoyed the dates, if you didn’t make an effort to make plans, they’d think they were respecting your feelings by backing off (or, sometimes they’re just lazy!).

      Certainly, though, I’ve taken on board the importance of being the cool, fun girl (I personally think that is excellent advice and much better than being intense & testing people), being grateful, happy , kind, mirroring his efforts & not overfunctioning. I always take on board as much as I can and modify as needed.

      1. 8.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Marika,

        I would be curious to know based upon what you have learned either from this site or other places about how we date here in the United States;

        What similarities and differences are there in how Americans go about dating and how Australians go about dating?

        How does the whole dating process, courting, male and female rolls work in your country of Australia?

        1. Marika

          Thanks for your question, Adrian. It’s a really broad question though! I think the main thing is that it appears to me that fewer men in Australia compared to America are confident ‘alpha’ males when it comes to relating to women, not at work or in sporting settings or with their friends – different story. Overall they are less likely to be really proactive in dating. Some may pay for the first and maybe second dates, but in my experience, after that it’s typically 50/50. I’ve also been asked around at least 1/3 of the time to chip in for the first date. They often ask the woman where she would like to go, rather than plan it and then invite her, and if with coaxing they do make a plan, they  won’t typically be very creative in their choices. A first date will also often be quite low key (like ‘drinks’ without dinner or coffee), so even if they are paying, it won’t be a lot.

          I don’t think this is because they don’t care or are rude or bad, and none of this is ‘wrong’ perse, I think it is more that they treat dating as a 50/50 type thing, or are more laid back people in general, or are less sure of themselves and worried about making a mistake (what Evan would call a beta male). My very alpha ex husband was quite wishy washy & unsure when it came to taking me out (e.g let’s go to the local club for a steak was the most exciting it got until I starting planning our outings!).

          We don’t have as much of a dating culture either. People tend to get together early, in school,work or university, as friends or through mutual friends and just sort of ‘fall’ into relationships, rather than actively date (I didn’t officially ‘date’ until I got divorced in my 30s).

          Obviously I don’t live in the US (have been there, though), but whenever I’ve met American guys, or they contact me online, and in general, American men have a reputation as being much more confident and proactive. It’s rare to get approached by a man you’ve never met in a pub here (and unheard of say in a cafe or on the street/bus), but when I was in the States it happened – and other people have told me this too. American men seem to handle you saying no to them with confidence and ease too (in my experience), or more so than here. When I got approached when I was in America, I was in a relationship, so had to say no, and it didn’t bother them at all! I think men here may be a bit less thick skinned. They’d also try to find out if you were with anyone before approaching you – which is why bars are safer than elsewhere, as you’d often either be single and looking, or clearly with your partner at the bar.

          The men who write to me online who are American always write very confident, funny, flirty emails – I tell them that they should give lessons to the Aussies, haha – who are much more likely to write “hi”, “hey beautiful”, “I like your pics” etc.. 😉

          Hope that answers your question!

        2. Kanga

          Wow, I’m also Australian and whilst I agree on the ‘don’t really date’ thing in Australia and also guys aren’t super up front and will drop off pretty quickly after the second date, if you aren’t pro active (phew – that makes it easy), but almost every time I’ve been in a pub I’ve been approached by a stranger and also outside of pubs. If I went into a pub right now (I live practically across the road from one, lol and can hear it right now)  – I’m certain I could walk out with a number. In fact, the last guy I went on more than one date with was a stranger in a pub, at a pool tournament. We became quite good friends. I don’t even play pool!  Men are less likely to approach if you are in a big group, but one, two or three ladies will definitely get approached in my experience. I rarely go to pubs anymore – it’s not my scene as the only reason men are approaching you in a pub here is for sex and I’m getting too old for the noise and alcohol.

      2. 8.1.2
        Michelle

        Haha yes I’m an immigrant in NZ so quite a bit of what you say here and in your comments below apply to us here as well! 😀 I found “dating” (as you say, not much of a dating culture) a bit of a struggle and am very happy now with a fellow international from my own country.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Michelle, Kanga, and Malika,

          As someone who would like to work internationally in my field once the kids are out of the house, I find this thread just fascinating!  Thank you!

        2. Tom10

           
          @ GoWiththFlow, Michelle, Kanga and Malika
           
          Just to add that the experiences you describe in Australia are pretty similar to dating here in Ireland. Asking women out in random places such as shops, streets, bus stations etc. is just unheard of. Indeed, when locals observe American guys over here do it we marvel at their audacity.
           
           
           
          Guys here will also cut women off very quickly if she makes no effort to contribute from early in the dating process; even after one or two dates. I’ve found though that women here can even prefer to pay their own way as it means that they then don’t “owe” us anything and so can cut us off fairly easily if/when they want to move on!

        3. Henriette

          Same as my experiences here in Canada.  People are more reserved here, so even trying to strike up a (purely platonic) conversation with a stranger when we’re both waiting in a long line just to help pass the time, is often met with awkwardness or suspicion.  And rather than a “dating” culture, people tend to just meet up in groups and then pair off with someone from that group, say, or hook up with someone they know from university or work.

        4. Kanga

          Tom10,

          I agree about the paying thing – I’m more likely to want to pay if I don’t like the guy, just so I don’t owe him anything and there are no bad feelings. I also buy drinks for the guy or whatever, wherever we are.  My last relationship was with a rich, middle eastern man and it was an affront to him if I offered anything and also our earnings were severely mismatched but it still made me awkward having him pay for everything and the times I did pay for things he would sneak money into my car or wallet for me to find later.

          Maybe a sign in Australia is – if she’s paying half on the first date – you are never going to see her again!! Because in my mind that’s actually true. Also, the not taking charge of where to go etc. does happen here – the last guy I went to dinner with didn’t ask me until we were in his car where we wanted to go. That kind of thing drives me mad at my age. I’m new to this town and I just wanted to go to dinner not have a half hour conversation of where we should go etc. It took us an hour to get to dinner and I let him pay, lol, because I was so annoyed. He also turned up in a t-shirt and joggers… Australia is a super casual country – but, come on!!

          People tend to ‘fall’ into relationships here I think and if it doesn’t happen when you’re young and socialising a lot, you might find yourself on the shelf with some very long dry spells, unless you are into the pub culture, which won’t find you any kind of quality partners at all.

  9. 9
    KK

    I think Evan and Jonathon both made valid points, but I do wish men followed Jonathon’s approach. It sure would make life easier.

    1. 9.1
      Adrian

      Hi KK,

      As to your comment about the video: I don’t like the videos as much as I like the podcast. I get to easily distracted by facial gestures and body movement to actually focus 100% on the listening. I have noticed that I can easily miss little things that were spoken.

      …   …   …

      Anyway, what parts of Jonathon’s approach do you wish we followed more and how do you see it as making life easier?

      1. 9.1.1
        KK

        Hi Adrian,

        The tell-all, upfront, honest approach makes it easier to eliminate people earlier that aren’t compatible.

  10. 10
    Nissa

    I’d have to agree with Evan that “I’m best friends with my ex” very much comes across as a test. To me, when someone is worried about ‘not wasting time’ it is generally a cover for fear that the person is not realizing they have. Sorry. I do think Evan could have let Jonathan talk more though, and let the listeners form their own opinions about the validity of that advice, without making Jonathan feel like he was being made wrong.

    I’d be interested in WHY this guy is best friends with his ex. Was she the one that got away, and he never got over it? Is she filling the emotional hole until a new girlfriend shows up, and he plans to let go of the ex/emotional blankie when he has a new blankie? Is he friendzoned, hoping she’ll eventually make him a friend with benefits? Most men don’t have women friends unless they are hoping for more (yes, Evan’s an exception because he just loves the attention and the talk). Even women with men friends usually are hoping the man will eventually notice them as more.

    It’s been my experience that men in general are gun shy and prone to seizing on the smallest thing if you tell them too soon. Have Him At Hello confirms this also. Because they don’t know you well enough to put it in context, they make inaccurate assumptions. Heck, I’m even afraid to mention that I like watching movies with the subtitles on, because who needs an argument on the first few dates?

    What other things don’t you guys mention on a first date?

     

  11. 11
    Alex

    Evan, I love your advice and am a big fan of yours.  So it was disappointing to hear you dominate the conversation, interrupt your guest to the point that he needed to shout over you  and to make him wrong. It was a trial to listen to. The wrong time to spar.

    1. 11.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Dear Alex,

      I am sorry that you did not find my free podcast to be worth the money you didn’t pay for it. I’ll admit: I’m not a professional interviewer. I’m a reality-based dating coach who offers advice based on what’s most “effective”. Not based on what I like the most. Not based on your feelings. Not based on what looks good. Based on what works.

      The reason I put up such a fight with Jonathon – and he knows this – is the same reason I wrote this post about Rori Raye’s Circular Dating

      This isn’t a simple point of agreeing to disagree; I actually think Aslay’s advice is ineffective and counterproductive to anyone who is trying to make a great first impression on a date. It’s based in fear, insecurity, and scarcity. It says, “I’m an adult. I know what’s others think is wrong with me. I’m going to tell you up front so you can’t be surprised. Now, tell me what you like to do for fun.”

      Except that’s not how it works.

      If you doubt me, go ahead and interview your next date to ensure that you’re marriage-compatible from the get-go. And while you’re at it, be really up front and truthful about your perceived issues. Jonathon’s were that he’s best friends with his ex, that he’s a beta male who doesn’t like to play the traditional masculine role, and that he doesn’t want to court you by paying for everything. Fair enough stances. Attractive to tell someone on the first date? Uh uh.

      Here’s one of my women clients telling the truth to her first date – in the name of honesty and not wasting time. “I am afraid of not being good enough and being abandoned. I’ve got a history of being a doormat in relationships. I take Zoloft for my anxiety. I have issues around men, sex, and trust.”

      Hey, it’s the truth – and if he can’t handle it, that’s HIS problem, right?

      So this isn’t a matter of politics or religion, where two people can stand on different sides of an issue. There’s only what works. I have yet to see any evidence that some guy saying, “I’m BFF’s with my ex. Take or leave it,” or “I’m 39 and want to be pregnant in 18 months,” is an EFFECTIVE way to communicate on a date.

      1. 11.1.1
        L

        For the last two years your advice has been right on the money and has saved me from a lot of heartbreak- at 31 I’ve been able to effectively weed out uncompatible men and now am with a kind and considerate alpha, what you refer to as the ‘nice guy with balls’. Can’t help but agree with you again in this podcast.

      2. 11.1.2
        JB

        Evan was correct on this one for sure. The things Jonathan tells early would make anyone walk away immediately. If I was a woman I wouldn’t take this guys advice on many issues that was discussed. Although Evan, waiting til we get to the bedroom is not the right time to discuss STI status either. Being a a guy in my 50’s this was a fun podcast to watch I will say. Great topic Evan!

      3. 11.1.3
        Kareen Loy

        Evan i remember reading an article in which you critiqued Rori Raye’s circular dating. It had some very valid points. I will re read it. I suppose everything at times depend on the persons culture.

      4. 11.1.4
        JL

        I agree with Alex.

        It wasn’t the advice you gave that wasn’t worth listening to, it was the constant interruptions and talking over Jonathon that made it hard to listen to. I appreciate the banter, but please let your guest finish his point before you state your opinion.

        FWIW, I agreed with your point of view on most of the things you talked about, but he offered a really interesting viewpoint and I couldn’t help but admire Jonathon’s direct approach.

        Thank you for all that you do!

  12. 12
    Marika

    I used to be the girl who quizzed guys and “didn’t want to waste my time”. Eventually one guy said to me “I feel like I’m on a job interview”. I stopped doing this and sought advice immediately. Which is how I ended up here. Couldn’t agree more, Evan 🙂 Thank you.

    Never went as far as to put all my negative traits on the table from day 1! That’s just plain scary…

    1. 12.1
      Michelle

      I put a lot of deep personal info out there to my boyfriend on our second “date” (we met while on holiday) but that was because I never expected it to develop into a real relationship and I was just being in the moment with a near-stranger. It didn’t have a negative effect on our relationship but that is definitely the exception not the rule and I wouldn’t recommend it! I have some mental health issues and it took a lot of guts to disclose that but I waited until he got to know me as a solid, healthy and positive person first. He took it in stride and it’s all been fine, but definitely not something I would have opened with!

  13. 13
    Laine

    I would date Evan and would run a mile from Jonathon.  Any man that would tell me he expects us to take turns in paying, and lets me know his ex is important to him is not making me feel special. Jonathon has more red flags than a communist parade. I bet he’s still single !!!!

    1. 13.1
      Albert

      I bet you are single!

      1. 13.1.1
        Laine

        I am not single Albert. Married 20 years, then divorced. I was single for 4 years and during that time followed Evan. I have been in a relationship for the past 5 years.

         

    2. 13.2
      L

      Amen Laine!!! I wouldn’t feel comfortable.

  14. 14
    Elly Klein

    It’s amusing to me that so many people found this podcast enjoyable. I found the bickering grating to my ears. And I totally agreed with Evan. Sorry, Jonathan, but while I know your intentions are pure, I think you might be doing many of your clients out of a loving relationship. There’s a time to speak up. And there’s a time to shut up. I think Evan’s advice nails it.

    1. 14.1
      Adrian

      Hello Elly,

      The reason why I personally enjoyed this podcast so much is because it allowed me to see counter-arguments to many of Evan’s belief’s.

      Let’s be real here, as his conversation with Jonathon exemplified, there are many different successful approaches to courting and dating NOT just one; those of us who follow Evan’s advice are choosing to do so because we believe in him NOT because it is the only way.

      So whenever I can get the chance to see those beliefs put to the test, so to speak, and weigh how they hold up against other popular methods of dating; I love that! It either affirms or condemns my choice of following Evan’s advice.

      I will say though that I disagree with both you and Evan in that Jonathan’s way is wrong, again I think it is about the journey not the destination; because I am sure that many of Jonathan’s clients have successful relationships because of his advice just like many PUA’s and “The Rules” clients have successful relationships from following their advice.

      Again I trust and follow Evan’s advice because “to me” he has proven to be someone that is worth following NOT because his advice is infallible or the “only” way to get a lasting relationship.

      …   …   …

      I also have to say that at least to my knowledge, I am an anomaly here in the EMK community. Because I literally “only” follow Evan’s advice, while most of his other reader are more akin to bargain shoppers.

      They have dozens of relationship advice blogs, websites, and coaches they listen to; picking only the parts they like best from them and if the coach says something they disagree with on a subject, they just go to the coach whose advice confirms their beliefs.

      If Evan says something I disagree with or don’t understand, I’ll still follow it to see if it works, because again I believe in him. So seeing his advice hold up against apposing views benefits me.

       

      1. 14.1.1
        Elly Klein

        Thanks, Adrian.

        To be clear, I don’t agree with 100% of Evan’s advice. (Sorry, Evan. But I know this isn’t news to you… wink, wink.) But I do 100% agree with his advice in this instance.

        Evan and I are very similar in the sense that we’re both extremely open, honest and upfront. But I felt as though Jonathon’s approach was: a) WAY too upfront, and b) leaves no room to simply get to know and like someone first. For most people, online dating feels artificial enough without turning it into a SWOT analysis. (Marketing 101: Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats.)

        The reality is your Mr/Ms Right in real life is often not quite your Mr/Ms Right on paper. It’s so important to give someone a chance to warm up to you, and you to them, before you put each other in a position of having to decide whether or not you’re willing to accept certain things. Evan gave some great examples from his own life: If he told his Catholic wife within the first few dates that he wanted to raise his kids Jewish, she would have run. And if she’d told her financially responsible husband within the first few dates that she was $40K in debt, he would have run. But look at them now – happy has clams. Because they fell in love, had a great relationship, and both felt these things were worth working through. I could say the same for my own wonderful relationship. And I think if you polled your happily married friends, you’d get a similar response.

        Absolutely do not wait too long to ask those serious questions and have those important discussions. But don’t overcorrect to the point of ruling out almost every romantic prospect out before you’ve even had any fun getting to know each other. Truly clicking with someone is rare, so when it happens, most people are willing move mountains to be together. That’s true love!

         

  15. 15
    Puzzled By Avoidantly Attached Dating Coach

    Jonathan, it seems to me that you are an avoidant attached guy who is starting out a relationship by telling your date on sentence 2 that you will be cheating emotionally on her and if she doesn’t like it, to move on. It would narrow your pool to find a woman who is willing to share your emotional attention with an ex who isn’t even the mother of your child. I would ask, “What do you need me for, if you already have another woman as your best friend?”

    As a woman who values connection ,  communication and intimacy in a relationship ,  it sounds like a three is a crowd situation and you restrict the partnership by putting your ex as a priority before we even start .

    I like your directness in what you’re looking for, but it can be done in a way that is beneficial for both partners, not just you and your ex.

  16. 16
    Stacy2

    I am just going to say it. An ex who is not the mother of a man’s child should have no place in his life. May be you grab drinks once a year to “catch up”, but even that is too much if there’s another relationship.  However, if this is  a guy’s bottom line, I prefer to hear about it right away. I don’t want to waste my time and emotional bandwidth on someone like that – we’re not a good match.

    When you’re dating a divorced person (and as you get older that’s pretty much what your pool becomes), there’s understandable amount of baggage that comes with it. Some baggage is inevitable and you just need to deal with it (i.e. kids). Other baggage needs to be checked at the gate (i.e. “my ex wife is my best friend”. Reality check: No. She’s not).

    Even with the “right” type of baggage sometimes it won’t really work. I once met a wonderful men who I would love to date, but he was divorced with two young kids and he had a nice setup where they and his ex lived in a house that he owned, and he lived nearby, and he had it all figured out in terms of HIS schedule and HIS commute and HIS preferences in terms of lifestyle, etc. It became pretty clear that he was trying to sell me on his vision of how things should work and it wasn’t my vision. I felt like he was looking for a missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle to fit in his otherwise figured out life, and I was just the wrong shape. I cut it off very quickly. Even if you’re divorced, I think it’s important to understand that going forward you’re trying to build a new life together with another person, not merely fit that other person in your setup (though if you try long and hard chances are the latter can be accomplished..)

    1. 16.1
      Shaukat

      An ex who is not the mother of a man’s child should have no place in his life. May be you grab drinks once a year to “catch up”, but even that is too much if there’s another relationship

      Why? If you’re not insecure and don’t feel threatened by anything/everyone, then why begrudge your partner’s friendship with a person he has a history with, and which gives him some comfort, in a purely platonic manner?

  17. 17
    Marika

    Thanks for all your comments re cross cultural dating! Love it!

    I know we diverged from the point of the video (just a bit!), and sorry to hijack the comments , but Evan, if you’re reading, it looks like there’s some interest in a post about implementing your advice cross culturally…😊😊

  18. 18
    Ross

    I agree with Evan about not putting all your “conditions” out right away. I read all the time men putting a list of requirements, some of which sound quite insensitive and they write for instance “I dont wanna waste my time so if you are not ok with being second to my kids, dont bother me. If you are not ok with me working long hours, dont bother me” etc etc. These requirements are actually reasonable in themselves (anyone with common sense knows that kids and work come first) but listing them right away brings a sense of negativity and bitterness and I never choose to contact or respond to people putting negativity forward.

    1. 18.1
      Adrian

      Hi Ross,

      I just wanted to say great comment! You helped me see something that I struggled with articulating for a long time.

      You said, “These requirements are actually reasonable in themselves (anyone with common sense knows that kids and work come first) but listing them right away brings a sense of negativity and bitterness

      This is so true! Logically I have no problem with a woman saying her kids come first, but hearing it verbalized and shoved down my throat is such negative feeling; especially when this same woman expects me to put her first and make her feel special.

      1. 18.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Adrian,

        Logically I have no problem with a woman saying her kids come first, but hearing it verbalized and shoved down my throat is such negative feeling;

        Do you continue to pursue this woman or do you move on? How do you get excited about a relationship in which you know from he beginning you will always be second priority?

        1. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          Well personally I have never been in this situation. The occasional weekends when I become a single parent allowing my toddler niece and lately my niece along with my toddler and new born baby cousins to stay at my place for the weekends. I now know that though really I love children, I do not want to have any. So I have never dated or tried to date anyone with children.

          But I have witnessed enough men being told this or women mentioning to other women that a “real” man would be able to handle this that I know I don’t like it.

          Emily said, “How do you get excited about a relationship in which you know from he beginning you will always be second priority?

          I wonder this too all the time! After reading Ross’s comment my only guess is it is in the way the woman or man handles letting you know.

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          But I have witnessed enough men being told this or women mentioning to other women that a “real” man would be able to handle this that I know I don’t like it.

          Taking on someone else’s kids is a tall order. If you yourself have kids, you probably understand the sacrifices that need to be made. But if you don’t, you’re being asked to rearrange your social life around children who aren’t yours. You will also have to deal with the ex-partner, an interaction that may be difficult. On top of that, you’d be expected to help co-parent if the relationship became serious.

           

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrain,

          A woman woman who has kids, who thinks that any man should just deal with that fact and go ahead and get involved with her, is doing both herself and her kids a huge disservice.  I appreciate it when men who don’t want to take on kids steer clear of me for dating and relationship purposes.  It’s what’s best for everyone concerned.  If you’ve ever seen a situation where one partner does not want or accept the other’s kids, you know what a disaster it is.

    2. 18.2
      Kareen Loy

      Exactly so Ross.

  19. 19
    Michelle

    I found myself nodding my head at everything in your post, Stacy. I was in the exact same situation. He talked non stop about his ex, she was his “best friend “and he still called her on their wedding anniversary ! He once cancelled our plans on the phone with her right in front of me to take their kids for the night so she could go to the hairdresser. So yeah lesson learned the hard way. I wouldn’t be as upfront as Jonathan but I would definitely observe and try to figure that out. Like you said some guys have no clue about how to fit you into their arrangements with their ex and kids, and if you’re not getting your needs met, bail. My  bf is divorced (no kids) and moved to another state afterwards and doesn’t communicate with her anymore ,  so I knew I had a clean slate.

  20. 20
    Erin

    Oh Evan! I wish you would ask more questions, interrupt less, and just get more curious. This was so painful to listen to!

    But–from everything you’ve disclosed about yourself, I’m guessing my comments aren’t new to you. 🙂

    You had a guest on your show and you bulldozed him. My ears are still ringing. Thankfully, Jonathan held his own and was very gracious.

    All that said, I do love your podcast and your frankness has helped me a ton. So glad you introduced me to Katherine Woodward Thomas, who introduced me to Marni Battista. Love those ladies.

    Keep up the good work… 😉

    Erin

  21. 21
    John

    If I went out on a first date with a woman who was best friends with her ex-boyfriend, it would be a big red flag to me. It’s interesting to hear about dating in Australia these days. I visited there 20 years ago and had a lot of women ask me out and pay for the dates. I was surprised, as I’m used to paying and planning dates. I wondered why this happened and people there said it was a ratio of 4 women for every 1 man. Other people said it was my American accent. I didn’t care why because I was having the time of my life. It was a great experience dating Down Under!

    1. 21.1
      Marika

      Lucky you, John! Before all you men rush to Australia to make the most of these great odds, it’s not true that there is a ratio of 4:1 women:men. I think that’s called the Australian sense of humour!….;0

      But certainly the accent has its charms 🙂

  22. 22
    Stacy2

    I finally listened to the whole thing and I have to say that Jonathan makes a lot of sense. Once you hit id 30-ies and older, I think its best to have serious conversations early on. The entire conversation seemed to me like bickering about semantics. Obviously you shouldn’t be so tone deaf as to overshare out of the context. But you can absolutely create context to discuss things that are important. Look, we are not kids anymore. We have lived and accumulated experiences and we have certain values and convictions and it is better to be authentic (which is not the same as socially awkward).  Isn’t it better to be authentic than to draw someone to develop feelings for you only to reveal issues about yourself that are dealbreakers for that person? What good will that possibly do?

    For example, when I was 25 years old I had no views on joined checking accounts.  When my ex suggested we have one, I was like “sure why not”. Now 7 years later, having gone through a divorce where I had my money stolen by my ex from “our” joint checking account, I have a very strong view on it, as in – I will never have a joint checking account of file joint tax returns with another person for as long as I live. I will absolutely find a way to communicate this early on (the fact that I never want to co00mingle finances). For example, we’re having brunch and I bring up me meeting my friend A. later in the day and I say “A is my dearest friend, she and her husband just had an adorable baby girl. Actually, they’re not technically married, they just found it easier to not legally marry, which I think really works out better in the long run”. And then watch his reaction. Some men have really strong negative reaction to that, some don’t. Here, you just created context to discuss this situation. You can do it with EVERYTHING. Bring up an article you read “they legalized marijuana in Colorado! Did you see that?” Etc. Isn’t that fairly obvious that this is how you do it? This is how you ask such questions.

    1. 22.1
      Adrian

      Hello Stacy2,

      It is interesting reading your comment, because I was leaning in Jonathan’s direction somewhat at first but after reading your examples I now completely agree with Evan.

      Here is why, from the few times you described yourself on her it is clear that you are physically very attractive with a great body, but what if a guy did not see himself with you long term? What would he do to have sex with you?

      Well an unscrupulous man would verbally agree with everything he thinks you wanted him to because you are only a now girl, not the girl he want to marry. This does not mean that he would be a yes man, it just means that he is just trying to maximize his short run time with you, if you are sleeping with him it’s even better.

      I think it was Tom10 who once made the statement that it is a myth that men will not put in the work or the hours to sleep with a hot woman that they don’t want to be with long-term.

      But with Evan’s method, it doesn’t matter what he say because in time he will reveal his true beliefs through his actions anyway, and Evan’s no sex before commitment rule helps keeps women safe even if the guy is saying all the right things and doing all the right things just to get sex.

      …   …   …

      On a personal note, I am glad that you brought up those examples, I never realized how stealthy women are with their test.

      1. 22.1.1
        KK

        Adrian said, “Evan’s no sex before commitment rule helps keeps women safe even if the guy is saying all the right things and doing all the right things just to get sex”.

        When I was 20, I met and was pursued heavily by a 27 year old, who in all ways (at first, anyway), appeared to be a total catch. We went out several times a week, and by the end of week 2, he asked me to be his girlfriend. 2 months later, the relationship became sexual. This “relationship” went on for another 6 months. I was completely unsatisfied. It became clear that he did and said things in order to get to the sex part and would do and say things just to keep that going. I don’t think he ever had any intention of having a serious relationship with me. Look, some guys operate this way. I saw him several years ago. Still single. Never married. A series of short and long term relationships.

        There is no “rule” you can follow to protect yourself. I agree completely with Evan’s advice regarding waiting for a commitment. A lot of us ladies have dated this way pre- Evan. It increases your odds for a satisfying relationship, but it doesn’t guarantee it and it’s extremely naïve to think so.

        1. Stacy2

          Also this reminded me, there’s a great episode of “how i met your mother” that deals with this very communication issue and also hilarious, that you may want to watch:

           

        2. Nissa

          I’ve had this experience also. IMO, one of the better ways to really get to know a person is to meet their family,  because if he is acting ‘not like himself’ his family will either call him on it or say something to you about how he’s not normally like that. It’s harder for a person to pretend when they are around people who have known them for decades.

          That’s part of why I don’t like talking on the phone, especially early in the relationship. People naturally ‘put their best foot forward’ in what they tell you, which can be deceiving. I have far more success in going on actual dates, then observing what they do. What is actually does is far more accurate in revealing his true self, versus what he tells you.

        3. Tom10

          @ KK

          “When I was 20, I met and was pursued heavily by a 27 year old, who in all ways (at first, anyway), appeared to be a total catch…It became clear that he did and said things in order to get to the sex part and would do and say things just to keep that going. I don’t think he ever had any intention of having a serious relationship with me. Look, some guys operate this way. I saw him several years ago. Still single. Never married. A series of short and long term relationships.”

           
          Yep, he was a playa; some guys are players. In reality they’re actually quite easy to spot though.
           
          @ Adrian
          “I think it was Tom10 who once made the statement that it is a myth that men will not put in the work or the hours to sleep with a hot woman that they don’t want to be with long-term.”

           
           I remember writing that actually; what I meant was that some/many guys make a big effort to “date” (have sex with) a particular woman even if he actually has no intention with ever dating her long-term. It depends on how hot she is relative to the women he has slept with previously, his perceived effort to yield ratio required to achieve success and what his other options are.
           

          But hey, guys look for sex and find love don’t they? So, by that rationale, *most* guys operate in order simply to have sex, and if love happens then it’s simply a bye-product rather the intended goal.

           
           
          So yeah, it can be a mistake to make a connection between how much effort a guy makes and if he actually wants a long-term relationship with her.

        4. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          What I meant was that some/many guys make a big effort to “date” (have sex with) a particular woman even if he actually has no intention with ever dating her long-term.

          Explain that to me because I don’t get it. Why not just proposition her if he just wants sex? Let’s be honest: Dating can be a real chore, particularly for the man … the approaching, the calling, the planning, the picking up, the taking out, the following up … Why do all that for someone you just want to sleep with? I’m sure there would be some women (even the hot ones) who would be down for a casual sex session.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          I can’t answer for Tom10 but I think the reason many men do this is because they know that their is a 99.9% chance that telling a woman you just want to sleep with her will get you a no; whereas putting in the work to court her gives you a almost 100% chance.

          I literally just had this conversation with a woman last week and she can not… she will not believe that a man would put in all that work but not be into having a long-term relationship with her.

          To describe her: Hmmm… Have you ever met someone who you can tell that when they were young they were really attractive and therefore they never had to develop their character, but as they aged and their looks deteriorated they still acted haughty towards people?

          Things that guys let them get away with because they were beautiful now is just seen as an unkind personality. Well this is her; she is around 50, attractive “for her age” but once she starts talking, the negativity doesn’t stop.

          She always has a story about a guy courting her hard for a few weeks but once she denies him sex he cuts off all contact and disappears on her, yet she always has some kind of excuse because to her these guys were really into her they were just scared of commitment or whatever excuse they can think of.

          …   …   …

          Also like Tom10 said, her attractiveness compared to what he is use to plays a HUGE roll.

          From what I have seen, a guy will put in more work with an attractive women than for a woman that he doesn’t really find attractive but he is horny.

           

        6. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

           

          I can’t answer for Tom10 but I think the reason many men do this is because they know that their is a 99.9% chance that telling a woman you just want to sleep with her will get you a no; whereas putting in the work to court her gives you a almost 100% chance.

          There’s probably some truth to that, but it seems duplicitous to me to court a woman if you know at the onset you are only interested in sex. By courting her, you are giving her the idea you at least want to try to get to know her and see where the situation leads.

          Plus, as you know, going on those first few dates is work, my friend! The awkwardness, the straining for conversation, the hours of possibly being uncomfortable, the anxiety that can be triggered if it’s someone you really like …

          I’ve never dated online before, but is there a box you can check to make it clear you are looking for “friends with benefits” so both parties are on the same page?

           

           

           

      2. 22.1.2
        Stacy2

        Adrian, you’re so adorable 🙂 The thing is, not every man i get involve with i necessarily see myself with long-term or as a baby daddy candidate (and i don’t want to get married so I don’t need to play the “get the ring” game again, though i do know how to play it well… So I don’t really need that “protection”. You’ll learn. Grown up women don’t operate like that. (It is expensive to date me though which I found to be the best protection against those who only want a hookup – they quickly move on to easier targets which are abundant in this city and will offer a BJ after a night of beers and corn dogs).

        I mostly commented because throughout the podcast Evan was asking “but HOW do you ask that question? HOW do you have this conversation”? This is how. It doesn’t need to be a conversation about the two of you as in “how many kids do you want?”. That’s just socially inept. Have strong views on kids one way or another? You can say “my father is one of 5 and I think big families are great” or you can say “i really think that childfree movement is onto something” – for example. Want to move to another city? Say “a friend’s firm just opened and office in Denver and he’s relocating – it turns out Denver is such a wonderful city with booming economy and affordable real estate!” Or if you never want to move say “I am so happy here, some friends are moving for cheaper housing but I feel I just love this place too much to trade it for extra leg room”. There. You just had a conversation about how many kids your partner wants to have and where you want to live, all over a morning cup of coffee. Jeez.

        1. Nissa

          I’m CF too! Definitely onto something 🙂

        2. Adrian

          Hi Stacy2,

          How would you covertly discover how long a person has been single?

          I agree with Jonathan that most newly divorced and single people think they are ready to date but if they have only been single for a few weeks they probably aren’t and you’ll probably end up as their transition relationship.

      3. 22.1.3
        Tom10

        @ Emily, the original
        “Explain that to me because I don’t get it. Why not just proposition her if he just wants sex?”
         
        Well Emily, as Adrian wrote, how many women do you think would respond to such a polite request by saying something like; “ah go on so, since you asked so nicely, sure, let’s do it”. Now, I’m sure there are some women who’d react like that but I reckon a lot more would react negatively to such a proposition.

        “Let’s be honest: Dating can be a real chore, particularly for the man … the approaching, the calling, the planning, the picking up, the taking out, the following up … Why do all that for someone you just want to sleep with?”
         
        Some guys just get a thrill out of the chase. The goal is actually the hunt itself rather than the girl and once he’s landed his “quarry” (i.e. slept with her) he gets bored and wants to repeat the process with someone new. So all “the approaching, the calling, the planning, the picking up, the taking out, the following up” are actually obstacles which form part of the game; the hotter she is and the more hoops she makes him jump through increase the excitement.

        There has to be something instinctual to it as part of male sexuality as so many guys will relate to my previous paragraph.

        1. KK

          @Tom10 said,

          “There has to be something instinctual to it as part of male sexuality as so many guys will relate to my previous paragraph”.

          I call B.S. It’s only ‘instinctual’ for assholes.

          These guys are pretty good at figuring out which women they can hit and quit (pardon the vulgarity) and which women are going to require a commitment. Or should I say, faux commitment. The guys I’ve seen do this, do both. They’ll slut around with slutty women until they see someone worth chasing and play the game. Deceive her until they get bored or she dumps his ass and start all over. Of course, a woman being deemed ‘worthy’ will only result in her heartache. It’s shitty behavior carried out by shitty people. Thankfully, this is more common in some guys in their twenties, because most guys eventually mature. Thirties and beyond… utterly pathetic.

        2. Chance

          KK, men want sex so much that women could never possibly understand how much they actually want it (similar to how a man could never know what it’s like to be pregnant).  As a result, men will always seek sex to the point that (in many cases) they will run their lives into the ground.  During this process, it’s the woman’s job to show that she is relationship-worthy, and if she can do this, the man will then will make a commitment (that no woman can ever fully understand the magnitude of) to remove himself from the sexual marketplace in favor of an unnatural monogamy.

        3. FG

          In our younger days, we used to joke around with the notion of saying “Hi! I read books! Do you f**k?” which is the really blunt vesion of the same thing. We never tried it, though. It didn’t sound like a promising approach. lol  We also believed running for cover would be indicated after dropping that line.

        4. KK

          Chance, that wasn’t really the topic being discussed by Tom10, Emily, and I. It was about players masking their true intentions (sex from a particular woman, with no intention of marriage) by doing all the things a relationship oriented man would do.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Tom10,

          I think the whole “guys who desire the chase more than the girl” is a tired and overused trope.

          I am not saying that it does not happen, but I would venture to guess that it is a very very rare man who chases/courts just for the fun of it.

          The only guys I even have ever heard of that get excited by a woman that makes him jump through hoops is the vindictive type of guy who plans to leave her (and hopefully embarrass of break her heart) after he sleeps with her.

          Or a childish guy who after putting in a lot of work in courting her, he discovers that she is not girlfriend material but still wants to “at least” have sex with her to get something out of it since he put in so much work courting.

          I think a woman’s sexual appeal and the sexual appeal of the man who is chasing her is the #1 indicator of how much work/courting a man is willing to put in if he has no desire to date a woman.

          Also notice that sexual appeal for men is more inclusive than it is for women (in my opinion). Sex appeal for women is 1, 2, 3 whereas sex appeal for men is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Overall on “average” women require more from a man for him to be considered sexy.

          1. Positive personality and character

          2. A high degree of facial beauty

          3. The deliriousness and seductiveness of their nude body

          4. An above average level of wealth and success

          5. A strong measure of height

          The point is that a guy who is a 9 would still have sex with a woman that is a 6 but he would put in very little work to do so; and to many women just because a man is cute, or tall, or successful does not make him sexy to her-he would need a combination of all those things.

          Which means that even a hot looking guy unless he has all those attributes will still have to put in a lot of work to get a woman in bed regardless of her own sexual market value; and I think most guys are not willing to do that kind of work for a woman he has no strong desire to date or have sex with. A guy who was only in it for the chase would not care if she was a 10 or 2, he would work hard for both-and I just don’t see that happening.

        6. Emily, the original

          KK and Tom10,

          I call B.S. It’s only ‘instinctual’ for assholes.

          These guys are pretty good at figuring out which women they can hit and quit (pardon the vulgarity) and which women are going to require a commitment. Or should I say, faux commitment. The guys I’ve seen do this, do both. They’ll slut around with slutty women until they see someone worth chasing and play the game.

          I agree with you, KK. Plus there are plenty of women down for casual sex. It shouldn’t be that difficult to find.

        7. Adrian

          Hi Chance,

          I would be curious to know your views on these questions

          1). Do you believe that women also give up a lot by becoming monogamous with a man?

          2). Do you think women desire sex as much as men but they are just better at self control?

          3). Do you believe that the only thing holding women back from having more sexual partners is the fear of slut shaming or do you believe that women just desire relationships more than sex?

        8. Chance

          KK, my point is that men almost always don’t know if they want a long-term relationship with a woman for a while (unless he is so starved for female intimacy that he thinks he “knows”), but in the meantime, he wants sex.  I’m afraid some folks conflate a man who is dating a woman and has not said anything in regards to how he feels for a woman with a man who lies to a woman (about wanting to be in a relationship with her) simply to get sex.  They aren’t the same thing, not even close.

        9. Tom10

          @ Adrian
          “I think the whole “guys who desire the chase more than the girl” is a tired and overused trope.”
           
          Well I didn’t say that “guys desire the chase more than the girl”; I simply said that some guys enjoy the thrill of the chase. Which is true. Similarly I’ve no doubt that many women enjoy the chase/being chased too. But isn’t that what dating is about, eh?
           
          “I would venture to guess that it is a very very rare man who chases/courts just for the fun of it.”
           
          Hmm I dunno. I would venture to guess that it is a very very rare man who chases/courts with the actual goal of getting married. Therefore, conversely, I would argue that venture to guess that most guys chase/court to have sex with hot women (or to put it another way; “just” for the fun of it). The fact that some/many/most guys subsequently fall in love and get married is purely incidental rather than intentional.
           
          Do you disagree Adrian?
           
          “Also notice that sexual appeal for men is more inclusive than it is for women (in my opinion).”
           
          Well there is extensive scientific research to support your opinion; therefore, it is reasonable to consider this as true.
           
          “Which means that even a hot looking guy unless he has all those attributes will still have to put in a lot of work to get a woman in bed regardless of her own sexual market value; and I think most guys are not willing to do that kind of work for a woman he has no strong desire to date or have sex with. A guy who was only in it for the chase would not care if she was a 10 or 2, he would work hard for both-and I just don’t see that happening.”
           
          Okay, good point…er, I think.
           
          You’re saying that as guys will sleep with women they’ve no interest in; the fact that they will invest considerable effort only into a select few women is proof that he has a genuine desire to date or have sex with those women?
           
          Okay. But that doesn’t negate my original point that many guys will pursue women just to have sex with them with no intention of dating her long-term.
           
          @KK
          “It was about players masking their true intentions (sex from a particular woman, with no intention of marriage) by doing all the things a relationship oriented man would do.”
           
          Do you think that guys should only pursue women if they intend to marry them? Do you think women should only ever sex with guys if they intend to marry them?
           
          Hmm. I dunno. That seems a rather quaint and naïve view of modern dating to be honest.
           
          Now, if a guy actually pretends he’s looking for marriage and lies about his intentions to bed a woman then I agree that it’s shitty behavior by a shitty guy. However, if he never lies, mentions marriage or a desire to date her long-term then I’m sorry, it’s not shitty behavior: it’s her poor game for assuming something that was never promised and having a poor understanding of male sexuality.
          KK, when you’re dating a guy do you tell him upfront that marriage/ltr is your goal? If you don’t, you can’t really complain when he similarly doesn’t state his upfront. If, however, you do, then fair enough; you’re a very ethical dater.

        10. KK

          Geez, Chance… No one is conflating anything. YOU are talking about men, in general. The discussion was about confirmed players. No one, male or female, is certain what they want in the “getting to know you phase”. It’s a discovery process. Either both people end up on the same page or they don’t. We were talking about guys who intentionally deceive in order to get what they want; ie, players.

        11. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          My point is that men almost always don’t know if they want a long-term relationship with a woman for a while

          That’s fine, but there’s a difference between a man who is dating a woman and open to the possibility of finding out if he wants a relationship with her and a man dating a woman who knows he just wants sex with and will disappear after he gets it. Nobody said anything about him lying to get her into bed.

        12. Tom10

          @ Adrian,
          Hi again Adrian, I know you addressed your questions to Chance so I hope you don’t mind me taking a stab at answering them too:
           
          “1). Do you believe that women also give up a lot by becoming monogamous with a man?”
           
          I would say yes they do give up a lot by becoming monogamous with a man. However, I would argue that, in general, women have a stronger instinctive desire for monogamous relationships than men, therefore by this logic; monogamy is a greater sacrifice for men than for women.
           
          “2). Do you think women desire sex as much as men but they are just better at self control?”
           
          I think women certainly desire sex a lot but there is considerable scientific evidence that men, in general, have a much stronger sex drive, which one can assume, means that men desire sex more than women.
           
          Better at self control? Hmm, on-average, women probably do have better self-control; I’m sure the statistics bear this out. However, I’m sure the differences in self control between the genders are less than the differences in self control between individuals. I.e. self control is an individual-specific thing rather than a gender-specific thing.
           
          3). Do you believe that the only thing holding women back from having more sexual partners is the fear of slut shaming or do you believe that women just desire relationships more than sex?
           
          I think there are a multitude of factors holding women back from having more sexual partners:
          – fear of slut shaming
          – risk of physical harm,
          – risk of STDs
          – risk of pregnancy
          – tarnishing her “marriage value”.
          – dearth of guys that meet their standards, are available and that they actually find attractive.
           
          “or do you believe that women just desire relationships more than sex?”
           

          I think most women want relationships and sex. As do many guys.
           

        13. Shaukat

          It was about players masking their true intentions (sex from a particular woman, with no intention of marriage) by doing all the things a relationship oriented man would do.

          Frankly, there are a lot of people who date with no intention of it leading to marriage. The type of deceptive ‘player’ you’re talking about isn’t really all that deceptive, because these days it’s well understood that no one owes anyone anything simply because you go on several dates, treat the person well, pick up the tab, and even have sex after date 4 or 5. A woman is free to cut off contact after date 3 regardless of how much effort a man has put into the process up to that point. And a man is free to walk away without commitment.

          No one really deceives because no one starts talking about long-term commitment or marriage on date 3. In fact, most women would probably run from a guy like that, so such overt deception would likely backfire anyway.

          In other words, the type of ‘dating with intent to marry’ mentality might have been the norm in the 1950’s and perhaps it still is in the bible belt, but not in most places.

        14. KK

          Shaukat,

          “In other words, the type of ‘dating with intent to marry’ mentality might have been the norm in the 1950’s and perhaps it still is in the bible belt, but not in most places”.

          Evan lives in California. I believe he’s said he’s an Atheist. On a different blog post, he mentioned he was always looking for marriage. He didn’t lie or use anyone for sex. It just took him awhile to find the right woman for him. I don’t think that’s especially rare. Even less so, for women.

          “No one really deceives because no one starts talking about long-term commitment or marriage on date 3”.

          I don’t believe anyone here said anything about a long- term commitment discussion on date 3. I certainly didn’t.

          Here are the facts, Shaukat… There are plenty of women that are up for having casual sex, friends with benefits, one night stands, whatever. If a man doesn’t want a commitment, he should pursue those women. Most women still want marriage. And you are correct in saying women are free to date and walk away at any time. That’s exactly what we do until we find someone we think we might see a future with. Most men know this. An ethical man will let a woman know if he never sees marriage in his future, in general, or with her. He will risk losing out on the possibility of sex with her, because it’s more important that he not hurt someone. Someone unethical will LIE in order to get what he wants, regardless of the woman’s feelings.

          Please don’t pretend that guys like this don’t exist. They are exactly the ones our dads, big brothers, male friends, and even Evan warn against.

        15. Tom10

          @ KK
          “Someone unethical will LIE in order to get what he wants, regardless of the woman’s feelings.”
           
          And I’m sure everyone – including players – will agree that lying is shitty behavior.
           
          Indeed many, if not most, players will consider lying not only as shitty behavior but also very poor game; there is no honor or achievement when they bed women through lies so most won’t do it.
           

        16. Shaukat

          @KK,

          Evan can set the record straight if he wants, but I believe you are misrepresenting what he has said about his past dating career. I recall him stating that when he was dating prolifically he hooked up with multiple women, knowing that he had no intention of stepping up as their boyfriend. Was he deceiving them? No, because he didn’t explicitly tell them that he wasn’t planning on committing. You seem to have a bizarre understanding of deception, whereby if a man doesn’t spell out that he’s not interested in marriage right at the get-go, then he’s a deceiving player.

          And by the way, women don’t walk around with a label stating that they want casual sex.  it’s up to you to state that you won’t sleep with him before commitment, it’s not his job to preemptively warn you about his intentions.

        17. Tom10

          @ KK
          “If a man doesn’t want a commitment, he should pursue those women. Most women still want marriage. And you are correct in saying women are free to date and walk away at any time. That’s exactly what we do until we find someone we think we might see a future with. Most men know this. An ethical man will let a woman know if he never sees marriage in his future, in general, or with her”
           
          But KK, does the converse not apply equally? If you believe that most guys know that most women still want marriage, is it not reasonable for men to believe that most women know that men want sex?
           
           
          Therefore, if women date without stating their desire for marriage (because they assume that “most guys” already know this), is it not equally reasonable for men to date without stating their desire for sex (because they assume that “most women” already know this? 

        18. Emily, the original

          Hi Adrian,

          I’m not Chance, but these are questions about women, so I hope you don’t mind me answering them. I am making very broad generalizations.

          1). Do you believe that women also give up a lot by becoming monogamous with a man?
          No, not if she really likes the man and the relationship is good, as is the sex.

          2). Do you think women desire sex as much as men but they are just better at self control?

          Women desire sex, but with very specific men. You ought to see how the women react when a new hot male employee shows up at my place of employment.  A big majority of them are coming out to see him, putting on their lipstick, etc. I am not kidding. But a hot man is a rare occurrence there, hence the exaggerated reaction.

          3). Do you believe that the only thing holding women back from having more sexual partners is the fear of slut shaming or do you believe that women just desire relationships more than sex?

          Depends on the woman. Depends on her age. Some women will always want a relationship. Those who are into more casual arrangements (maybe in between serious relationships) have plenty of options in their 20s. Even the guys who are their second and third choices are still pretty appealing. The options thin out after about 30. So they get pickier, by default.

        19. KK

          Yes, Tom, we know men want sex. I even thought about mentioning that after my comment about women wanting marriage. But in trying to be brief, I really didn’t think it was necessary to state the obvious. I stand corrected. Lol.

        20. KK

          @Shaukat said, “You seem to have a bizarre understanding of deception, whereby if a man doesn’t spell out that he’s not interested in marriage right at the get-go, then he’s a deceiving player”.

          I never said anything about from “the get-go” as you already suggested by date 3. You’re arguing against things I’ve never stated. My understanding of deception is just fine; along with every other woman in North America. If you still feel my understanding is so bizarre, go up to any woman 25 or older, and ask her if she has ever been deceived (played) by a man. I’m not going to go back and forth with you anymore on this issue, and I’d prefer if you don’t comment @ me in the future. You’re rude, you twist words instead of questioning what was actually said and I find our interactions highly unsatisfying.

        21. Shaukat

          I seriously doubt “every woman in North America” shares your view of deception, and at any rate the method you propose for validating your belief is hardly scientific.

          KK, if you don’t want to go back and forth, don’t respond to my post. As long as you respond with points of your own, I’ll feel compelled to reply back.

        22. KK

          Shaukat,

          Since you brought up scientific methods, where are yours?? Do you have evidence that anything I said is in fact, false? (And please provide an exact quote, not your mis-interpretation or adding things like 3rd date time lines, which I haven’t said). Are you denying that no man has ever lied or used any form of manipulation ever in order to have sex? Please provide evidence. Or are you simply saying that it doesn’t happen often enough to warrant discussion?

          My un-scientific, real life experience tells me otherwise. Every woman I’ve ever known has encountered at least one such player in their dating lives. Are you denying that reality or the reality of similar stories you’ve read on this very blog? The point is, what exactly is your point? In your attempt to break down my argument, you haven’t provided any proof to the contrary. Instead you insult my belief system, suggest I am stuck in a 50’s mentality somewhere in the bible belt and say I have a warped sense of deception… (A gentlemanly approach, I might add, Ha!) So please, enlighten me with all your vast wisdom.

        23. Shaukat

          Are you denying that no man has ever lied or used any form of manipulation ever in order to have sex?

          No KK, I’m not denying that at all. My disagreement has to do with the way you seem to be interpreting manipulation, offering a very elastic definition that, in my opinion. renders the term meaningless. All your posts above seem to suggest that you believe that the default assumption in dating should be that since most women want to marry, any man who doesn’t see marriage or a long-term commitment as the end goal, or who isn’t sure about it, has an obligation to make his intentions clear before sex. You seem to be suggesting that any man who isn’t explicit about his intentions before sleeping with a woman is a deceptive player. Am I misrepresenting your position or not? My point was that simply asking a woman if she feels she has been deceived by a man doesn’t establish that your definition of manipulation and deception is correct. Unless asked, I don’t believe a man has to necessarily pre-emptively spell out his intentions early on in the courting phase.

          And FYI, you have posted comments here in the past that I actually agree with, so despite what you may think I don’t have a vindictive agenda against you.

        24. KK

          What I’m saying is that whenever a man does know that he’s not interested in anything more than casual sex and he continues to pursue a woman, asking to be her boyfriend, acting like a boyfriend, in order to get sex, that he is being deceptive. Once he knows he only wants sex, why not just say he’s looking for something casual or that he doesn’t want a commitment?

        25. Evan Marc Katz

          You’re really not seeing the nuance in this, KK. You seem to have left out the most common middle ground here: he’s not “pursuing her,” or “acting like a boyfriend.” He’s texting her, being nice to her in person (since it would make no sense for him to be mean to her), and sleeping with her occasionally. If anything, most men AVOID getting close, specifically to avoid a messier situation.

          The percentage of men who treat women like girlfriends just for sex is relatively minimal. They don’t have to. All they have to do is call once a week, text every few days, and be charming and seductive.

          There is nothing surprising or new about this.

          As another poster astutely pointed out: SHE is responsible for her own emotional well-being. If she is afraid of being used, the onus is on her to refuse to have sex without commitment, instead of expecting him to tell her why she should not be having sex with him. If you’re having sex, you’re a participant, not a victim. Don’t like it? Stop having sex with no-boyfriends. Voila. Problem solved.

        26. KK

          Evan, I shared a story with Adrian about a boyfriend when I was 20 because he claimed that waiting for a commitment protects women. The point was, that while this is by all means the best way to protect yourself, it isn’t foolproof and in no way means it works all the time. I don’t claim victim status from something that happened long ago, but I’m not the only person who has ever experienced this or something similar.

        27. Emily, the original

          KK

          Evan, I shared a story with Adrian about a boyfriend when I was 20 because he claimed that waiting for a commitment protects women. The point was, that while this is by all means the best way to protect yourself, it isn’t foolproof and in no way means it works all the time.

          I have a male friend who, with every new woman he dates, comes on like a freight train with the texting and the calling and the asking out and, yes, the sex. This lasts about 2 months, and then he backs off, surprised that the woman considers him a boyfriend, telling her he just wants a “sexual romance” and not a relationship. This man is in his early 60s and most of these women are at least in their late 40s. He doesn’t call just once a week or text every few days. His initial communication with them (as well as seeing them in person) is constant.  Based on his behavior in the first two months, these women think he wants something real from them.

        28. Chance

          Hi Adrian,

           

          To answer your questions:

           


          “1). Do you believe that women also give up a lot by becoming monogamous with a man?”

           

          It depends.  I think younger women (under 25) who are very attractive certainly do because they receive much more male attention, and as a result, have more options that can be exercised.  It is in her best interest to keep those options open because, once she enters into a monogamous relationship, she will have to excuse herself from entertaining those options.  However, for women over 30, I don’t really think they give up much, if anything, by becoming monogamous with a man whom they would see as an optimal mate.

           

          Now, let’s assume that a woman and a man have exactly the same amount of options that can be exercised.  I think the woman in this case gives still gives up less than the man because I think men are polygamous by nature, so psychologically, I think the adjustment to a monogamous relationship is tougher for a man due to his biological wiring.

           

          “2). Do you think women desire sex as much as men but they are just better at self control?”

           

          I think men have a much stronger sex drive than women.  I believe that I read somewhere that testosterone is the primary factor behind sex drive, and if that is even somewhat true, then it’s pretty much a closed case.  Throughout history and all over the world, women have appeared to have more self-control over their sexual urges.  What makes more sense:  that the billions of women who have roamed this earth all were somehow more virtuous and of stronger character, or that there might be a biological element to it?  (and yes, I realize that there’s a third theory that many ladies will insist is the real reason, to which I would reply that everyone will find a way to sexually express themselves no matter how repressed they think they are)

           

          3). Do you believe that the only thing holding women back from having more sexual partners is the fear of slut shaming or do you believe that women just desire relationships more than sex?

           

          Slut shaming exists, and I don’t doubt that it has an impact on women, but I believe the scope and depth of the impact is exaggerated.  Quite simply, I just don’t think that a non-romantic sexual encounter is as satisfying for a woman as it is for a man (and certainly not a long string of such encounters).

           

          I think a good way to sum it up is that if women had the same sex drive as men, than sexual relations between men and women would look a lot more like sexual relations between homosexual men.  In addition, I know that I’ve read studies (sorry that I cannot cite off the top of my head) that found that homosexual men have quite a bit more sex than homosexual women.  If women had the same sex drive as men, we’d see men and women going into each others’ restrooms and knocking on the stalls for random encounters throughout the day, and that’s never gonna happen no matter how sexually liberated women become.

        29. KK

          “Do you think women desire sex as much as men but they are just better at self control”?
          Emily said:
          “Women desire sex, but with very specific men”.
          Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

        30. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          “Do you think women desire sex as much as men but they are just better at self control”?
          Emily said:
          “Women desire sex, but with very specific men”.
          Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

          Thank you, Miss KK.

          Also, both you and Adrian keep mentioning this idea of “options.” What does that mean to you? That she has lots of  sexual offers? Or offers for casual flings? For a lot of women, that doesn’t translate to “options” unless they are interested in casual sex/fwb, etc. “Dude cred” and “chick cred” are very different. A man earns it by what? Bedding a bunch of hot women? And by exerting the lowest possible effort to get them there? A woman earns “chick cred” (if there is such a thing) if she lands a desirable, appealing man … who wants to be with her in a relationship. It means little if those kinds of men only see her as a sexual partner.

        31. Chance

          Emily, from the female’s perspective, I was referring to relationship options and also options as it relates to the most valuable currency among women:  attention.  Most women have plenty of sexual options lol.  From the man’s perspective, it’s a combination of sexual options and relationship options.

        32. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I was referring to relationship options and also options as it relates to the most valuable currency among women:  attention.

          Attention isn’t the most valuable currency. In and of itself, it means nothing. If you are a woman and you are breathing, you get attention. But attention that translates into dates, relationships from the men you are interested in … threatening to jump off tall buildings if you won’t marry them … Now, THAT’s attention …  🙂

        33. Chance

          Emily, fair enough, but I don’t know if I agree with this part:

           

          “In and of itself, it means nothing.”

           

          One needs to look no further than the social media sharing epidemic among the ladies (e.g.,gorgeous!, beautiful!!, etc.) to realize that it means more than nothing.  To be fair, men are guilty as well sometimes.

        34. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          One needs to look no further than the social media sharing epidemic among the ladies (e.g.,gorgeous!, beautiful!!, etc.) to realize that it means more than nothing. 

          Well, attention is a form of validation, but what’s the use of having 400 Facebook friends if none of them are people you actually hang out with? Once you get to be my age, almost all the attention you get will be from married people … the ultimate flaccid flirtation.

  23. 23
    Adrian

    So Really?!!!

    I am the only one who noticed the conversation at 51:30 – 52:30 about the STD with a condom in hand???

    What would other commenters do in that situation?

    Especially if you were in love with the person at that point?

    1. 23.1
      Malika

      If I was told just before having sex that my sex partner has an STD i would first thank him for his honesty and then say that i would first want to read more on the STD before going any further. I don’t think that is unreasonable, and i am sure that he would understand. In an ideal situation i would want to be told a little bit before that (before going to the bedroom), but far better the situation above than not being told at all.It doesn’t have to put a damper on proceedings. Friends of mine have partners with HIV and by taking the necessary precautions they are able to have a fulfilling sex life.

      Quite often, we date people for only a very short while, and with most men that i have dated, it did not go any further than kissing. If we don’t know for certain whether it will affect the person we are dating, why spill the beans? I have vaginismus. If i am only getting to know the guy and we are not in an exclusive relationship (for me, that means i will only go as far as oral sex), why tell him about my handicap, what caused it and the heavy process that is involved in alleviating it?

       

    2. 23.2
      KK

      Cut and run.

      1. 23.2.1
        S.

        Right out the bed? Throw some clothes on first? Never call the person again?

        Just seems cold.  I don’t have any STDs and it is indeed scary for me.   But I’d try to act with compassion in the moment, at least.

        I don’t mean any offense, just the comment surprised me.  I could just see someone running out the door half-dressed . . .

        1. KK

          Cold? Cold is waiting until moments before sex to drop something of that magnitude on someone.

        2. Stacy2

          I agree with KK. The whole scenario makes me cringe. I am half naked in bed, alone with a man, really vulnerable, and he’s like “btw i have an [potentially deadly STD]”? Are you kidding me? I would be so scared (of being raped and infected) that I would run out of the door immediately, literally, and would cut that person off completely. This is not the right approach at all.

      2. 23.2.2
        S.

        To KK at 23.2.2:

        Wow, there are a lot of comments and no way to respond directly to yours.  So I’m replying to the original one.

        Cold? Cold is waiting until moments before sex to drop something of that magnitude on someone.

        Maybe.  I know because this did happen to me.  I wouldn’t say it was moments before sex, but we were in bed.  We were certainly discussing sex and were going to do some sexual things and so we had a conversation. It was comfortable and I felt in a very loving place which is usually where I am when I’m in an intimate space with someone like that.  We weren’t naked, no.  I was surprised and not scared then.  I responding in a very loving way because I know he was terrified that I would indeed cut and run. We never did have intercourse, but I’m happy with how I responded.  He told me the truth and didn’t put me at risk.  I was compassionate and loving.  We later broke up over something completely different.  Maybe I should have broken up with him over this.  I don’t know. I don’t have a STD but I tried to treat him the same way that I would have wanted someone to respond to me if I had.

        1. KK

          It’s manipulation 101.

          If someone cares about you, they’re not going to wait until the last possible moment to drop this on you. They are thinking about themselves. Will she be so hot for me, she’ll just go ahead and have sex with me? Surely she’ll think I’m honorable for telling her beforehand. Lol. What a joke!

          And don’t even get me started on how a man would react if the situation were reversed. I can hear it now…. That crazy bitch told me she had herpes moments beforehand. Can you believe that?!?! What a manipulative – – – – !

    3. 23.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      Total relationship killer not to mention mood killer 😉

      A friend I know who has herpes, brought the subject up with her then boyfriend, now husband, after they had dated for a few weeks but before they became exclusive and had sex.  She did it when they were alone at her place doing Netflix and pizza.  They started kissing and she then said, before we go any further . . . Obviously things worked out.

    4. 23.4
      Nissa

      If I was serious about that person, and already in love, it wouldn’t matter. A person is not their disease. I would prefer to know about before I’m half naked, though.

    5. 23.5
      Adrian

      Malika, KK, GoWithTheFlow, and Nissa,

      Inspired by the conversation I just had with Emily in 19.1.1 do you think the emotional investment form of manipulation would also work if the subject was about children and marriage?

      Like if a man or woman waited until they knew their partner was in love before telling them that they don’t want children or marriage; would it work?

      Do you think most people would stay with that man or woman out of love even if they want marriage or children?

      1. 23.5.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        Adrian,

        I think whether one wants to ever get married or have kids is such a profoundly life altering thing, that whether you’re on the yay or nay side it’s important for that to be out there at the beginning.  When I was young, it was out there that I loved kids and wanted a family.  In high school I was named most likely to wind up driving a station wagon with faux wood trim on the doors 😉 because even back then I wanted a big family.

        I would have been very upset and would have instantly dumped a guy who told me after “love” that he didn’t want to get married and have kids.  That’s a deal breaker.  The closest I ever came to this scenario happening was with a man who told me a few dates in that he did see himself getting remarried and was open to having kids.   He actually said that since his ex-wife had to have a caesarean for their 2nd child, she had had her tubes tied at the same time.  So luckily he had never been “fixed” and could “start over.”  several months later I realized we were stuck, and the relationship wasn’t progressing.  When I brought this up, he basically said marriage wasn’t in the future.  I broke up with him, even though it hurt like hell.  Soon after my ex told the husband of the married couple who had set us up that he was surprised I had ended it over that.  Apparently he thought the plateau we were on was mutually satisfying enough that I would stay.

         

        1. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          Jeez! You ruined my image of you (^_^)

          Now every time I think of  you I will picture you street racing a hot rod version of the Brady Bunch mobile down the street to get your kids to school on time… with faux wood trim and all!  (>_<)

          …   …   …

          In your opinion what is the difference between manipulation and just waiting until a new partner is emotionally invested enough to reveal your major flaws?

          Flaws that you know would normally make a person not want to date you like having an STD or being a recovering prostitute and drug addict?

      2. 23.5.2
        Malika

        In my view, it’s not emotional manipulation, which sounds deceitful. It is gradually getting to know each other and giving each other personal information in an appropriate and timely manner.

        The difference between these examples (kids, marriage) and others (financial situation, STD’s) is that they are of a permanent influence on the relationship. Financial situations can be solved, STD’s can be worked around but children and marriage are terribly important and it’s up to you to talk about this at an appropriate time a bit further down the road than the first date but before you get exclusive. Most people are really honest about these subjects too if you ask them explicitly, so it is not too difficult to get this information. And then it’s up to you to see whether the fact that they don’t want the traditional setup is so imprtant to you that you are willing to let them go. I think it’s ludicrous to stay with someone if you are hell bent on having children and they do not, and will just create resentment further down the road.

        I meet 99.9 % of my dates online and these preferences are clearly stated in the profile so i haven’t had any problem with this so far.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Malika,

          If manipulation is deceitful in your opinion, then how is it not deceitful to intentionally not tell someone something about yourself because you know it will cause them to leave you if they are not emotionally invested a.k.a in love with you?

          …   …   …

          How do you feel about secrets?

          Do you personally feel that a person should tell their partner “everything” eventually or do you feel that unless the subject comes up or unless it is relevant to the relationship; it is okay not to tell your partner certain things about your past?

      3. 23.5.3
        Nissa

        I don’t see it as emotional manipulation either. It’s about giving that person a chance to put that information in a context, which they don’t have if you’ve been dating for less than, say, six weeks / prior to sexual activity / before boyfriend status. That time is for them to observe you, listen to you and form opinions about you. During that time, you might not mention those touchy subjects, but that’s not the same as lying in response to a direct question. That’s what Evan means when he says, “Don’t ask, don’t tell”.

        I believe that’s true for all topics. However, men and women do respond differently to some things. There are probably more men than women who would be ok with dating someone who had no interest in kids or marriage.  I personally would prefer a man just tell me what he wants, and if it’s not a match for me, I can recognize that as not being about me personally.

  24. 24
    S.

    Been looking forward to this one! Gosh, over one hour. Let’s see:

    – Seven minutes in. Jonathan says that women should lead in relationships.  That’s not quite what Evan says. He says to lead if you choose a beta man, but if you chose an alpha man, let him lead.  But I liked that Jonathan admits that men of any age, 20 or 50 can have terrible relationship skills. It’s just hard to figure that out in the beginning.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t mind leading, I just don’t want to lead in a relationship forever, for the rest of my life.  I don’t mind a man leading, if he knows where in the relationship he wants to go. I’ve never dated a man who actually knew.  They say they do, but once in, it’s really clear that they don’t.  Or maybe they do and it’s just different from where I want to go.  I wish they knew that stuff early on, though, like in dates 1 or 2.

    – Evan says that 75% of people have been married by age 35.  Wow, a lot of people get married and divorced, I guess.  I’m focused on the other 25%, though, since I’m in that demographic.  But I’ll let Jonathan talk while I do my hair. 🙂

    – Evan and Jonathan differed on asking questions early. I find you don’t need to always ask pointed questions. Most men like to talk about themselves. But here is the thing, they will tell you a lot, but it takes a while to get the nuance of what that means for you.  For some men, it’s better to ask upfront.  Why? Because one can get attached even in a few weeks.  The other thing? Men aren’t always honest.  They don’t lie, no.  Like when Johnathan said he was ready for a relationship.  He believed that to be true.  Two years later he realized he wasn’t.  It was up to the two transitional relationship women to figure that out, early on.  That’s been the challenge with older men.  They give this impression of really knowing themselves, having good communication skills, all this wonderful relationship stuff.  Until you really are in it with them, and realize that doesn’t go as deep as you hoped it did.

    There is no other way to find out, honestly.  But I wish I could find that stuff out in the first three weeks.  I’m learning to simply trust my intuition. 🙂

    – Twenty-seven minutes. Huh.  We’re still on questions.  Couldn’t different strokes work for different folks? Evan went on 300 dates. His way found him his wife. Fair enough.  Johnathan is suggesting a different way. The thing Evan glosses over here is what Johnathan is trying to say.  That women get hurt or bitter over those few weeks. Evan says that’s just the cost of doing business. Sorry, but no way around it.  Maybe.  I am one who also establishes rapport very quickly and easily.  And I have good instincts I can finally say.  It might do me well to get to the nitty gritty questions earlier. Hmm. Not the first date, no.  But I am a talker and I ask a ton of questions in my normal life.  Men I date either like that or not, but that trait comes up quickly.  I listen too and most men like that. 🙂  Maybe I could stop asking the superficial fun questions like talking about politics or the latest film, and talk about our childhood sand hopes for the future a bit earlier like in week two or three, instead of a month or two in. The men I date don’t get turned off by that stuff.  And if they do, they aren’t for me.

    Some of the right people might get turned off, yes.  And this doesn’t help you avoid heartbreak.  But it’s just another tool in the dating arsenal. Like sometimes you use the flathead screwdriver, sometimes the Phillips head.  Neither is bad or good, but each is useful for its own situation.  Hope Evan and Marc get on to a different topic.

    – Okay, guess not.  So I’ll continue. For me who can still at nearly “middle age” get caught up in attraction or just distracted by having fun, it’s good for me to maybe say these things earlier.  It’s not a ‘shit test’, it’s just me keeping my eye on the ball. I know how to be subtle and read between the lines.  That can work too.  But with different schedules and busy lives, it’s good not to lose focus with the wrong person.   It’s happened to me before.   Before I listened to Johnathan here, I had just learned to stay focused inwardly.  I didn’t need to ask questions out loud since I have more experience now.  But it’s good for me to be on a sharp lookout for immaturity which I didn’t expect in men 45 or above, but there it is.  Maybe others can keep their heads about them two months in, but I struggle with that.  So I see the value in both POVs.

    -Yay, back to divorced men!

    -Wow, 33% of Evan’s clients make $100,000 or more.  I’m successful, but not that successful.  I may never be that successful.  Good to know, though.

    – Men who make less money aren’t a drain.  What’s difficult is if they are unhappy if they haven’t found their purpose, their success.  That unhappiness is a drain.  Or if they don’t have financial skills, that lack of knowledge could be difficult.  But lack of money if he’s happy and is knowledgeable about why he’s chosen that, I could see that.

    I dated a man who lived at home and had never paid rent.  He thought it was all so simple. But he had never actually had that responsibility. In another culture, that would be fine.  In ours, it was just another sign of his immaturity.  I was living at home too so I thought we were on the same page.  But I moved out as soon as I was able.  He’s still at home.   It wasn’t a sign of immaturity with me, especially since I had lived alone for several years in my 20s.   In him, it was.  So it’s difficult.  I really thought he and I shared values, but for him it was really immaturity. I should have assessed that better in the first six weeks, rather than it dawning on me months later.  (I know it seems obvious but I was living with my family too.)

    -Yes! Jonathan just said it. Having a “consciousness about it”.  I think he’s being more subtle than Evan is picturing.  And I knew this information! I didn’t have to ask the guy.  But I didn’t see it for what it was because I really wanted to believe our values were similar.

    I’m 57 minutes in and I’m done with my hair. Hmm. I’ve lost the thread of Evan and Johnathan’s conversation.  What Evan says does make sense.  But I agree with Johnathan too.  For some situations, early conversations are better. Since I don’t care about scarcity of men or anything, I say let it ride.  If you stop having third or fourth dates, reassess.

    0:59 Back to divorce again! A divorced man has done marriage, yes.  But does he bring the same commitment to a subsequent marriage?  And yes, hopefully he has relationships skills.  That’s the key.  Figure out if a guy has relationship skills.

    I didn’t get all of my questions answered in the podcast but I remain cautious with divorced guys. Most I meet, even ten years later after the divorce, are still stuck on that relationship.  Not the woman, but that marriage casts a wide shadow.  So good luck out there. 🙂

  25. 25
    Malika

    Hi Adrian:

    I think there is a huge difference between manipulation and finding the appropriate time to tell someone about an intimate part of your life.

    To take a few examples of my own private life:

    If i told every date during our first few dates that i go to a sexologist to talk about my past trauma that i am working hard to resolve, apart from it being way too uncomfortable for me to talk about such a sensitive subject to a near stranger, it would simply be too much for 9.9 dates out of 10. He hasn’t got a complex impression of me, which is impossible after a couple of hours of sipping coffee. He just sees a woman stating that sex is going to be difficult. I am leading with a problematic area of my life, instead of all the positive qualities that i have to bring to a potential relationship. If after a few months of dating i see there is a potential of an LTR, I will bring it up. If he sees this as a dealbreaker he will bail, whether he is in love with me or not. As this is something that will have a temporary but not permanent impact on our sex life, I feel that I can keep it to myself until the time is right.

    I dated someone a while ago who, when i said i didn’t see a future for us, informed me that he has a serious mental illness (i have no idea why he decided to disclose this as i was walking out of the door). If he had stated that on the first date i would have been overwhelmed by the avalanche of information. After having been on quite a few dates I could place his illness in the context of a good, strong man who  dealt with his handicap constructively and made the best out of a life that has not always been easy for him.  If I had been planning on dating him for longer, I would not have been overwhelmed and figured i can live with it, as he seems to be dealing with it so well and has many positive qualities.

    As someone stated earlier, if you know someone well, you can bring context and nuance to the situation. It’s far easier to handle a thorny subject, when you have a good impression of someone. And that takes time.

    Please note that i do not advocate lying or witholding information for an indefinite time. If sex will sometimes be difficult, don’t act as if you will be up for it three times a day. If you don’t want children or a marriage don’t pretend that you just can’t wait for the white picket fence ideal. If your financial situation is shaky, don’t boast that you have cash to flash. That would be deceitful, and will cause sadness further down the road.

  26. 26
    Kaylene

    Hi Evan,

    I’ve been listening to your podcasts for a while now and I’m sorry to say that I found this to be the most uncomfortable one I’ve listened to, to date. Not because of the content but because of what I heard as your inability to let Jonathon get a work in edge ways. To be blunt, I found your constant interjections (interruptions) a tad on the rude side ; if you’re going to have a do a podcast with a  ‘guest’, then wouldn’t it prudent to let them speak long enough for the listener to fully understand their perspective?

    I can certainly see both sides of the coin regarding your different approaches and valued the material delivered. I personally see Jonathon’s approach to asking questions sooner rather than later (as a way of finding out your compatibility) as totally valid – I’m in my mid 40’s and I certainly don’t want to be wasting time on anyone who doesn’t share the same values but I don’t want to find this out 2-3 months into the relationship because I’m trying not to read the last page of the book.

    As I said, content was great. Different points of view, great. Continually interrupting your guest, not so great.

     

    1. 26.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I know it wasn’t my finest moment as an interviewer. I took the risk of looking bad because I felt so strongly that this was not just benign advice, but bad advice that was detrimental to you, the listener. I would have been remiss if I let it slide, much the way Republicans have been remiss in normalizing statements by Donald Trump. Not all advice is created equal and my loyalty is to what’s EFFECTIVE for women – not what I believe, not what you believe, not what makes for a more pleasant sounding interview. Go follow Jonathon’s advice and tell your first date that you’re best friends with your boyfriend, your kids come first, you want a man who is active and fit, and that he’d better not want sex all the time because that’s not how you roll – and let me know how it goes. You’ll certainly be “saving time” though.

      1. 26.1.1
        Nissa

        Haven’t you seen that we are now government, American Idol – style? After all, Trump is giving people the chance to vote on his cabinet picks. (Info from Glenn Beck’s The Blaze).  http://www.theblaze.com/news/2016/11/18/trump-is-giving-you-the-chance-to-vote-in-your-picks-for-his-cabinet-positions/

         

        1. Adrian

          Oh Nissa… No… that is a joke right?!!

          If I may ask (without any political views involved; to answer this question it does not matter who you voted for),

          Do you believe that the results of this election had a result on women?

          If so, positive or negative?

          Particularly young women who do not yet possess the ability to differentiate fact from popular cultural and media hype.

          There was literally just so much said that belittles women and equates their worth to their level of beauty (some might consider that a sexual objectification) yet the perpetrator WON!… against a woman!!!

          …   …   …

          Sub question (if I may ask): since so many women voted for him does that mean that not all women care or even agree on sexism?

          If so does that mean that it is wrong for men to be punished for speaking about viewing women as sex objects; since not all women see it as a bad thing?

          …   …   …

          Just a few weeks ago I would have thought those questions silly, and never even dreamed of asking  but now… I mean by voting for him it means that millions of women condone his behavior.

        2. Nissa

          Oh so sadly, not a joke. Glenn Beck is a popular ‘right’ speaker and this came from his weekly emails.

          At the risk of highly simplifying a complex issue: yes, this election has had an effect on women. It’s not that women must only be represented by women (although that’s nice), it’s that we expect basic decency and respect, and the present elect has demonstrated a lack of that on many occasions. As the leader leads, so goes the population. As a result, many women, people of color, immigrants and non Christian people are very frightened for their families, quite reasonably so. Not because they are so PC as to prattle about ‘safe spaces’ but because of the import of laws and policies which are very likely to affect them adversely. One of which is Pence’s plan to repeal Roe v. Wade, which is more likely given the appointments due on the Supreme Court. Young women I think probably don’t even realize this yet, because they are too young to see it.

          Does women voting for Trump mean not all women care or agree on sexism? As you easily see, getting even a small group of people to agree on definitions is rare, so yes. I don’t think it is so much that they don’t care, but people care less if it doesn’t affect them (ie, they don’t believe in abortion, won’t have one even if it’s legal, so they don’t feel anything has been taken away from them). Also many I spoke to about why they were voting for Trump said they were socially liberal, they cared a lot less about abortion, gay & trans rights, and immigrants; but they were also fiscally conservative. This meant they felt Republicans policies for smaller gov’t, more states rights, and less taxation were very much in line with their beliefs and desires. They felt they were voting for that, in spite of Trump’s personal flaws.

          Jon Stewart said it well (I’m paraphrasing): the left doesn’t like it when the right treats them like a monolith. So let’s not make that mistake either.

          Is it wrong for men to be punished for speaking about women as sex objects? The critical point is not that all women don’t agree on what constitutes sexism. It’s that we still have the First Amendment, and the majority of us believe in that, and the law supports that. The law says that there is no punishment for individual views or opinions, or the expression of those, unless it creates hurt or harm to another. And if another feels that is so, they have the right to bring that to court. So this is equal to both sides, and seems the most fair way to handle it.

        3. mccar

          looking good dear

  27. 27
    Kareen Loy

    Well well well, my two dating coaches. Evan and Jonathon. While i was subscribed to a whole heap of dating coaches, you too are the ones who I follow up very closely. The interview was good. You both were very assertive in expressing your views and I have learnt a lot. So Evan was saying that certain things dont have to be said up front because you can scare off the person and you dont want it to sound like a job interview. (just paraphrasing to see if i get it, hope I dont misquote any of you). While Jonathon says that certain questions must be asked cause you dont want to end up wasting time with someone who wont work out, especially when you are a certain age like the age group he caters to. Well I respect both viewpoints and boy, I must say as someone who is will be 50 in a few weeks time with quite a number of relationships that did not work, I honestly have no time to waste with men with certain issues for eg. Emotional unavailability and just want to know certain things up front. So while i am never been married, it is still important for me to know certain things upfront so thay i dont waste time. I can understand Jonathons point. But Evan thinks certain things will be revealed over time. Ok. My last relationship was four years ago and I have learnt many, many things from both of you and Rori and looking back, though not blaming myself, i think i probably scared off the guy so Hearing both your viewpoints, it is my belief that maybe I have to do a combination of these approaches. Ask the questions, but be careful how they are framed so it foesnt sound like an interview and dont ask too early. Make the conversation sound natural and watch for the person to reveal themself.

  28. 28
    Jonathon

    Dear Evan & Followers,

    Thank you for the candid comments about the interview and I appreciate ALL of your feedback.

    Let me start by saying, I have the deepest respect for Evan and while the interview did get a little heated, you have to understand we are friends and rather than viewing it as host & guest, how about two guys just talking and having a differences of opinion?

    While I’m all in favor of dating with the idea of having fun to get to know one another, I do believe that what’s the point of meeting someone just for the sake of fun. My audience is Mid-Life singles and spending time getting to know emotionally unavailable men can be damaging in the long run. Approaching the dating process as fun until his true character arises creates so much frustration that many women give up on love after too many disappointing encounters.

    This is why I believe there is value in a little bit of “vetting” to determine shared values and the ability to blend lives… plus to spot an emotional grown up. This is all done in a conversational way and while it might appear as testing, it’s really meant as a way to see if you’re on the same page. Often times women ask little or no question about the guy only to find out they’ve falling in love with an emotionally wounded or damaged guy. While asking questions might seem like a buzz kill, I’d rather a woman walk about from a bad guy vs. just having a good time and getting hurt later.

    Now I will say that most women aren’t skilled in flushing out wounded or emotionally unavailable men in the beginning (this is why I coach to help them hone their intuition) and asking point blank questions will come across as an ineffective… so I agree with Evan. But our goal for our clients is the same… we want to help you all attract the right guy and I believe my approach helps you avoid the wrong one sooner.

    As far as mentioning being friends with an ex… this is personal one for me because my dearest friend is my ex girlfriend. From my experience, a person who reacts negatively to the fact that I’m friends with my ex, tends to be less emotionally grown up than the person who doesn’t care one way or another.  Human behavior is predictable and how a person acts about mentioning that one little bit of info about myself speaks volumes about how they’ll show up in relationship. BTW, I usually ask that question in this way, “how do you feel about someone who is friends with their ex?” in a fairly conversationally way. My bad, I didn’t articulate that properly during the interview.

    So this is where Evan & I agree to disagree.  I believe a little bit of “vetting” either before the first meeting, at the first meeting or by the 1st or 2nd date can go a long way to flushing out compatible than the wait and see “how he shows up” approach.  This is a very conscious and very purposeful approach which also help balance any high chemistry (if that is going on).

    Here’s the thing about a large percentage of men over 45, they have done little or no work resolving their childhood wounds. Since the topic was divorce, divorce takes a huge toll on men (and women) and since 75% of singles over 45 are divorced, many men (and women) have not recovered or healed from the trauma of the divorce as well.  This is why I help my clients spot the unhealthy ones fairly early on.

    Let me add, what’s the point of dating if you don’t have partnership on your mind? Now I’m not suggesting that the man sitting across you is your future husband; therefore, never have an agenda that he’s the one… but “vetting” is what dating is all about. I would rather have clients sacrifice a little first date buzz kill vs. repeatedly dating emotionally unavailable men. I fact, learning how to asking really good questions is partly what dating is all about as well.

    So let me end by saying the following… not only do I have the greatest respect for Evan, his work is honestly the BEST content out there. He cares passionately about helping women overcome their blocks including understanding men and finding love. Like Evan, I have the same passion and while the conversation might appear that we were at odds, in our own way the bottom line is to open everyone’s eyes to better approach dating, mating & relating.

    Thank you

    Jonathon Aslay

    1. 28.1
      ScottH

      Johnathon- thanks for following up with your reply.  I enjoyed the original podcast with you and Evan and thought that the differing perspectives provided a lot of fodder for thought.  As for you comments above about wounded people and recovering from the trauma of divorce and childhood wounds, there is a fantastic Kalas column about that:  http://www.reviewjournal.com/columns-blogs/steven-kalas/we-are-all-walking-wounded

      and for what very little it’s worth, I was the original letter writer to Mr Kalas in that column (if anyone cares to believe me).

    2. 28.2
      Jonathon

      P.S. Please forgive typo’s and grammar errors…

  29. 29
    Jonathon

    One more thing I missed…  asking good questions also helps determine “compatibility” as well. Besides going on a date to have a good time and to make a good impression, you’re going on the date to determine shared values and being able to blend lives. Those of us over 50 come with stuff (often know as baggage); therefor, knowing what works for you life and asking questions to determine if there’s a fit is partly why you meeting someone anyway. Most of us pre-screen in some way shape or form and what I like about what Evan shares, don’t make superficial things as deal breakers.  My approach is to pay attention to areas of incompatibility and not to naively believe that love is enough to conquer all which is what women often times do and they pay a price later down the road.

  30. 30
    Jonathon

    Hi ScottH,

    Thank you and I’ll check out the article. Recently I wrote a short blog about this…

    “Here’s the thing, we all have wounds but some are more extreme than others. In my humble opinion… 7/10th’s of the single population (over 45) has major issues. Of those with issues, 2/7th’s have clinical issues and 5/7th’s have unresolved childhood wounds (these are the folks who are emotionally unavailable). Of the remaining 3/10th’s who are single, only 1/10th have their shit really together and the balance are pretty close.

    From what I’ve seen, the average person is only attracted to 1 out of ever 100 people they meet. Therefore, since everybody is seeking the person who has their shit together… can you see how dating might be hard?

    There are many who believe you should go out with anybody and everybody allowing the cream to rise to the top. This has proven to be not only disappointing, but also very damaging in the long run because many give up on love out of sheer frustration.”

    The point of my post was to not just naively approach the dating process thinking everyone is healthy. While I’m not suggesting we should act scared and come at dating from a fear perspective, but relationships do come with risks the minute we give our heart to another.

    There’s a great book by Barbara De Angelis (Ph.D) called: Are You The Right One For Me? In her book she highly suggests learning as much about someone before you invest too much into another and it helps those know who’s right and avoid how’s wrong.

    You should check it out…

     

     

    1. 30.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Jonathon,

      The average person is only attracted to 1 out of ever 100 people they meet.

      That sound like it’s true of women, but do you find that’s also true of men? I’m just guessing here (and my observation is based on personal experience, and, to some extent, the comments from male posters on this blog), but it seems to me men are attracted to a much larger number of women. Could it be that number needs to be qualified with … attracted to 1 out of 100 people who are available to them? Just curious in terms of your experience as a dating coach.

    2. 30.2
      ScottH

      Johnathon- there’s another book like that from Jeb Kinnison- Bad Boyfriends: Using Attachment Theory to Avoid Mr or Ms Wrong and Make you a Better Partner

       

      In Chapter 25, he has a chart showing the percentage of the dating population that is emotionally available as a function of age.  For the over-40 crowd, that number is around 20% because most of the emotionally healthy people are taken and stay coupled.   Yes, it’s a rough go for us singles in mid-life.  I agree being careful about extending your heart too soon.

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