How Fast Should Men Go Sexually?

LoveU-Podcast-Episode-17Men look for sex and find love. If we can agree on that, why is it so surprising to some women when men try to kiss (and more) on the first date? In this episode, I’m going to give you the lowdown on what men are really thinking and the definitive sexual pace you should move at if you want to keep your spark and get a boyfriend.


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Comments:

  1. 31
    Charlotte

    I am in the camp of a BJ is not the same as intercourse… At all. Maybe it’s a generational issue. (32) I gave my first love in high school a BJ a year before we had sex the first time. After high school sex seemed to come first and BJ became rare. I have yet to be ghosted but, if I were, having given a BJ wouldn’t really bother me. If I had sex with the guy I would feel used and regretful. At the same time, I wouldn’t be in a position where I am doing either one unless I felt safe and really knew the guy after over a month. I guess it just comes down to what each person is comfortable with.

  2. 32
    Affable Morgan

    Hi Evan!  Couldn’t agree more.  You’re talking about great “foreplay” with a guy you think might be a keeper while you date and figure out if he is.  And who would want a guy who isn’t good at Foreplay?   And I would be the one bringing out the best in him sexually!  Wao!  It also lets me learn about him … is he fun, is he generous, is he easygoing, is he talented : )  Perfect in my book!

  3. 33
    Susan

    Maybe I am an old and out-of-date Gen Xer, but it’s my experience that women who give out blow jobs to men who aren’t their boyfriends aren’t thought of very highly by those men. They are usually the butt of jokes, labelled as easy and certainly not considered marriage or even girlfriend material by men and also other women. I say this as someone who loves giving blow jobs, but only to men I am exclusive with.

    Women and men are taught from a young age that women fall into one of two categories: the women you marry (the “good girl”); and the woman you have fun with (the whore). This Madonna-whore BS is drilled into women’s heads. That’s why women here are reacting badly to this advice suggesting to keep him interested and around you have to blow men you barely know anything about. It also suggests men have no self-control at all that they have to get off somehow within a month’s time to stay interested. And let’s face it, they can disappear any time after you’ve had them in your mouth. And sorry, but blowing someone is a pretty intimate act.

    Also, when does she get hers? Women think about sex, too. I think about it on the first date. If I am not feeling it, I will give them three dates to decide, but no more as to not lead them on. No one can accurately assess chemistry or compatibility on the first date. But at the three-date mark, they are definitely thinking they are getting some, but if I am not feeling it down there or anywhere else, I will call it off. We make this terrible assumption women don’t need/want sex as much and what they really want is babies and security. This does no one any favours.

    If paying for a date and giving out blow jobs are considered equal acts, then I think I want to be a man.

    Also, if you’re blowing someone who’s not your boyfriend, guaranteed he’s getting BJs from other women, too. I shouldn’t have to articulate how unsafe this is.

    I have a 13-year-old daughter who I will likely have to give dating advice to one day. Giving out blow jobs to men she barely knows won’t be part of that discussion.

     

    1. 33.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Susan,

      I’m an early Gen-Xer and the girls who gave BJs to non-boyfriend dates when I was in HS and college were called “hose monsters.”  It was not a term of endearment for sure!  If a girl was suspected of being a hose monster, guys would ask her out just to get blown.

      Times sure have changed in a way but the double standard still exists.  My adult son said this casual handing out of blow jobs was common when he was in HS and college 10-15 years ago.  He said he doesn’t see any problem with it.  So when I said, “Oh so you won’t have a problem with (his 9 year old daughter) starting to do that in a few years.”  The “Oh HELL no!” left his mouth pretty quickly.

      1. 33.1.1
        CaliforniaGirl

        I am so glad I wasn’t raised in this country because that was not normal in my school or college.

        I asked my friend yesterday who is 32 and dates, he said it is normal for a girl to blow on a first date, age range 20-30. I asked him “Why is she doing it?” He said: “To make me feel good, so I’ll call her again”. Just pathetic.

        1. Adreana

          CaliforniaGirl- I wasn’t raised in this U.S either. I never felt the pressure to have sex( including oral) just so “boys would like me”. I was raised with the idea that  it’s very normal for a man to court a women, and she isn’t “using” him or leading him on if she lets him wait. Maybe planning dates, initiating phone calls , taking her out is just something “most” men here sincerely don’t enjoy or feel natural about. It feels like too much work, and that’s why they expect a woman to go down on them early  ( or else she’s “using” him or leading him on).  Plus they don’t seem to care about a woman’s pleasure , because if she wants to wait…they figure she MUST not like sex, so who cares about her own pleasure? Lets be clear, I want to wait for a relationship , but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to enjoy sex or that I would be ok with the guy not reciprocating.

        2. Adreana

          “An Emotionally healthy man with options wouldn’t stick around waiting, spending his time and money for a women that is not making him feel in a way that compels him to keep coming back”.

          And likewise a confident, attractive woman with options wouldn’t stick around with a guy  that doesn’t make her feel special. If you wanna leave her no biggie-there were always be other men waiting to take your place 😛

          The best guy I dated agreed to wait-he was hot, confident, sweet,  and had plenty of options. But then again you have to factor in his personality- more reversed and very spiritual ( we used to meditate and do yoga together). We ended it because there was a communication  problem.

          No matter what we want, it’s important to be honest with ourselves and the other person.  Some men seek out women from different cultures/ upbringing ,only to get upset  about her wanting to take slower than what he’s used to. Ultimately, I think we all prefer  to be with someone who shares our values and that’s ok.)

          Btw, dating blogs are mostly for women, but there are countless PUA blogs for men( because they struggle with approaching women)…so many unqualified gurus lying to men they could get ANY woman they want with this technique or the other. I agree most men and women need a lot of help.

           

        3. Karmic Equation

          Maybe this is a West Coast thing?

          I live in the Northeast USA, men I dated in the 18 months prior to meeting my bf, ranging from 30-50 yo, did not expect bjs on the first date. All were good with a a not-so-chaste good night kiss. A few had roaming hands, but overall, all were gentlemanly and didn’t expect bjs as their good night kiss.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          We’re NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST DATE. We’re talking about moving further sexually as time goes by – so you can each get sexual gratification while deciding if a relationship makes sense. Why is this so hard to understand?

        5. Karmic Equation

          LOL. Evan. This particular post I’m responding to (33.1.1) is about first dates. So I was just addressing that as someone posited that bjs on a first date could be “an LA thing” 🙂

          It’s good to know you’re not advocating bjs on a first date. lolol (I am laughing so hard at your outrage right now.)

        6. CaliforniaGirl

          @Karmic Equation,

          men do not expect a bj on a first date, the problem is that all these poor insecure women were told to give a man a bj to keep him interested. Don’t you see a hidden agenda here? 🙂 At least you can take a look at his size, I guess..

          I just wonder – I go out with a guy, don’t have sex with him, waiting to see if he is a boyfriend material, tell him all those things like “I would love to have sex with you but I only do it with boyfriends blah blah”, he waits and he tells me he is my boyfriend, we have sex and he is finished in 10 seconds and doesn’t take care of me. I give him another chance, because I am a good person and also he is already my boyfriend, right? Same thing. What should I do now? Break up with him? I am a very straightforward person I will tell tell him the reason in details.  The guy will need a therapy until rest of his life. I think it’s just cruel. 🙂

        7. Karmic Equation

          LOL, CaliforniaGirl. I wonder how many shades of red that guy turns after you give him an earful?

          I believe oral sex is sex. It’s right there in the term “oral SEX”. Like anal sex is sex (although in my youth, I knew a couple that was saving vaginal sex for marriage, so they did anal instead to preserve her virginity. The logic of the young. <smh>)

          I think most men are good with women allowing heavy petting (from him) and do some heavy petting herself before “exclusivity” is agreed upon.

          A girl who doesn’t attach when she has sex can’t go wrong if she has oral/vaginal sex when she wants to.

          I’ve had sex as an ONS turn into a 6yr relationship; and I’ve had sex on date 7 (no makeout sessions before date 7) and was married for 9 years; and I’ve had sex after hanging out 1-2x per week for 8 weeks – without ANY makeout sessions — and had that turn into the the current 14-month relationship.

          My personal experience has shown that a guy is not more or less likely to commit depending on when you have sex.

          IMO, assuming the woman likes the guy, then whether the relationship has a chance or not depends on

          (1) the guy (whether he sees the woman as gf material or not);

          (2) how a woman handles herself AFTER sex;

          (3) how compatible he and she are outside of the bedroom

          …not when they had sex (oral or otherwise).

          Evan’s method of waiting for sex until he’s her bf is effective for women who can’t read men or can’t handle NSA sex.

          If women feel that bjs are less intimate than vaginal sex, then this is a good compromise for her to do something sexual while she’s trying to figure out if she’s ready to have sex with the guy.

          Personally, I feel bjs are more intimate than vaginal sex, so I’d go vaginal before oral. To each her own, on this one.

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          This:
          “Evan’s method of waiting for sex until he’s her bf is effective for women who can’t read men or can’t handle NSA sex.
          If women feel that bjs are less intimate than vaginal sex, then this is a good compromise for her to do something sexual while she’s trying to figure out if she’s ready to have sex with the guy.”

        9. CaliforniaGirl

          Yep, there is absolutely no correlation between how fast you have sex with a guy and if he is going to be your boyfriend/husband. I had sex with my ex husband on our second date and he called in sick next day and we just spent all day in bed. He proposed a year and a half later. We were together for 11 years. My last serious boyfriend, I picked up a gorgeous younger guy in a bar, literally, I just wanted him for sex. Apparently, he was a very interesting and smart guy and after few months we both realized we are in love with each other. It lasted for two years, so you never know.

          I think the best approach to do something as you feel it, not if it’s right or wrong but if you want to do it or not. You should always listen to your gut, if you want to have sex just do it, it’s you, it’s your personality, if you don’t want to have sex, don’t do it. People over complicate and over analyze everything, life is meaningless. The only meaning is what you create in your head.

           

           

      2. 33.1.2
        Susan

        I bet the boys weren’t going down on the girls in the school, were they?

        This double standard starts young and is less a product of biology and hormones than it is social conditioning. Men think this way because they are taught to think this way and, more importantly, taught they deserve sex from women, even without commitment.

        I have dumped men because they wouldn’t go down on me. This comes as a shock to them because they think women just want them for their money and/or sperm. I can make my own money, but I can’t do myself.

        Evan did say women should be getting satisfied, too, but saying giving blow jobs is the same as paying for a date is a total crock and does nothing but make an exchange one of money for sex. It’s way easier to open your wallet than your mouth. Making a man dinner is the equivalent to paying the bill on a date.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s not an “exchange for money.” It’s being conscious that if a man is calling/planning/paying, he’s not just doing so for your conversation. That is not bad, nor wrong. It’s DATING. Sex is what separates it from other meals with two people across a dinner table. If you give virtually no indication that you’re attracted to him, if you reject him when he’s trying to move forward, if you think he’s disgusting or perverted for reaching for your shirt/belt buckle (instead of just being a regular guy driven by testosterone), you will be perpetually aggrieved at why men don’t feel attractive around you. They feel like they’re on a job interview for husband. Take a guy around the bases, bring some heat, and observe him for a month and you’ll have a MUCH better chance than if you set some arbitrary rule in your head that he will invariably violate.

        2. Adreana

          “Sex is what separates it from other meals with two people across a dinner table”.

          A woman can be flirtatious and inject sexual energy without having sex until she’s ready.

          This reminds of when  young boys try to pressure girls into having sex by saying, ” but don’t you love me?” “My ex-girlfriend went down on my by this time”. Common now, unless the woman sucks at flirting or is ultra shy, you KNOW when she’s attracted to you…Men aren’t that dense as they pretend to be, or are they? .)

           

        3. Adrian

          Hi Adreana,

          Statistically who buys the overwhelming majority of dating self-help books?

          Statistically who are the majority of clients for matchmakers, relationship and dating coaches?

          Statically who is the target audience for romance movies?

          Women! Women! Women!

          Face it Adreanna, most men AND women don’t know how to treat the opposite sex during courting.

          Many women don’t know how to flirt.

          Many women don’t know how to keep a man enticed non-sexually.

          Many women don’t know how to reciprocate without giving too much or too little-just as most men don’t

          Also we must remember that the majority of Evan’s advice is speaking about men of quality character, but also with options. An Emotionally healthy man with options wouldn’t stick around waiting, spending his time and money for a women that is not making him feel in a way that compels him to keep coming back.

        4. Adreana

          Adrian- I replied to your post above. .)

  4. 34
    Adrian

    Evan Marc Katz stated, “It’s being conscious that if a man is calling/planning/paying, he’s not just doing so for your conversation… If you (women) give virtually no indication that you’re attracted to him… you will be perpetually aggrieved at why men don’t feel attractive around you.

    ________

    Would some of the female commentators tell me how they let a guy who they “are” attracted to, and that has been properly courting them for over a month, know that they find him attractive?

    I am assuming of course this is a guy at least on your SMV level who has other options.

    1. 34.1
      CaliforniaGirl

      I never waited a month for sex, I, actually, don’t know many girlfriends who waited that long if they were attracted to a guy. He either likes you or not and it doesn’t really matter when you’ll have sex. I either have full sexual experience or we don’t have anything, a guy doesn’t get a bj before he goes down. If he doesn’t by second time we have sex, he is a history and even if I liked him before, it just disappears. I cannot understand women who stay with their boyfriends who are selfish in bed. I can understand if you are already married, have a mortgage, kids, all that crap but if he is a boyfriend and you can just leave? That’s beyond me.

      Life is too short to spend it on bad sex and greedy men.

       

    2. 34.2
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Would some of the female commentators tell me how they let a guy who they “are” attracted to, and that has been properly courting them for over a month, know that they find him attractive?

      Like CaliforniaGirl, I’ve never waited a month either, but, in retrospect, getting to know the person a bit more and waiting longer is not a bad idea.

      If a woman is continuing to accept dates with you for over a month, she is showing you she is attracted to you. You have gone out … what? At least 4 times by then. Have you ever gone out with a woman for over a month you didn’t find appealing? She is returning your calls/texts quickly. She is making her time with you a priority. There’s been at least some physicality to the relationship. Deep kissing, heavy petting … and it’s hot. Meaning she’s into it. She’s excited to see you. Her body language is positive and open to you. She appreciates your efforts and lets you know that. She seems to have fun with you.

      1. 34.2.1
        McLovin

        Emily,

         

        I’m sure this rationally makes sense to you, because you’re a woman with good intentions.

         

        However, as a guy, I can assure you that the fact that a woman is accepting dates from a man on an ongoing basis is not a reliable indicator of her level of interest and/or attraction. Many, MANY women today have guys they date, and guys they screw on the side.

         

        In fact, I would even go so far as to say that what I’ve outlined above is the preferred method of ‘dating’ for a not-insignificant percentage of women. Especially average-looking and above.

        1. Karmic Equation

          McLovin,

          I don’t understand why you’re so worried about who the woman is screwing on the side when you haven’t offered her a commitment. You should only care if you and she are in a committed relationship. Women should behave likewise.

          If both people who are “dating” each other are screwing other people, it’s both sexes’ prerogative.

          What is more reprehensible is when a man takes advantage of a women’s belief that they are in an exclusive relationship after sex when he’s still dating/screwing other women.

          Or like someone else on this board, who is actually living with his girlfriend, who probably believes that they’re heading towards marriage because they’re living together, but who has no intention of ever marrying her, due to the “unjust” laws in this country.

          Taking advantage of a woman’s naivete and wasting her fertile years, which she can never get back, is a much more heinous result than any courtship behavior men are allegedly “forced” to perform to gain access to sex with said woman.

        2. Emily, the original

          McLovin,

          However, as a guy, I can assure you that the fact that a woman is accepting dates from a man on an ongoing basis is not a reliable indicator of her level of interest and/or attraction. Many, MANY women today have guys they date, and guys they screw on the side.

          I guess I am exception to this. I don’t like to accept even first dates with men I don’t have at least a moderate level of interest in. I have gone on dates with men I have very little interest in to “give them a chance,” but I always regret it. If I accept a second date, I really like a man. By the third date, I am hoping (though I probably won’t say anything; it’s too soon) this moves into something real.

          Why are women dating one man and having sex with another? Does the former have money while the latter is the one she wants but won’t commit? If I did get mixed up in a commitment-free situation (and I hope by my age I wouldn’t!), I’d probably be so fixated on the guy I really wanted, I wouldn’t want to spend time with anyone else.

        3. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Why are women dating one man and having sex with another? Does the former have money while the latter is the one she wants but won’t commit? “
           
          Like McLovin I’ve seen this scenario first hand quite a few times as well. My observation has been that women usually date the first guy not so much for his money (as women usually have their own money) rather for the attention, validation, time and the general ego-boost that being the object of someone’s devotion generates. However, as you say, the guy getting the sex is the hot one she actually wants, but he’s more than likely chasing another woman he actually wants, and possibly got a few other women on his rota to boot. I suppose it’s a kinda solution to the old  “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” dilemma; as it’s so difficult to find one guy who can fulfil all her needs at the same time why not have one guy for her emotional/validation needs and another guy for her sexual needs?
           
          The male equivalent – as Karmic already pointed out above – is being in a long-term non-committal relationship (or a quasi “committed relationship”; you know those relationships that go on for years where the girl really wants to be married but the guy isn’t that bothered?). That way he can have his girlfriend for emotional support/regular sex, cheating for some variety, and then dump the girlfriend when someone better comes along or he’s better established in his career.
           
          @ Karmic Equation
          “Taking advantage of a woman’s naivete and wasting her fertile years, which she can never get back, is a much more heinous result than any courtship behavior men are allegedly “forced” to perform to gain access to sex with said woman”
           
          So which gender’s version of “having your caking and eating it too” is worse? Hmm, I tend to agree with you that costing a woman her fertile years is worse than costing a guy his time/energy/money on some dates.
           
          But ultimately, the onus of responsibility lies on each individual dater to look out for themselves, therefore, it’s up to each man to ensure he’s not making a (significant) investment in women who’re screwing other guys, and it’s up to each woman to ensure she doesn’t waste her “fertile years” on non-committal guys.
           
          Or to quote Obama (your hero right?); “ignorance is not a virtue.”

        4. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          My observation has been that women usually date the first guy for the attention, validation, time and the general ego-boost that being the object of someone’s devotion generates. However, as you say, the guy getting the sex is the hot one she actually wants, but he’s more than likely chasing another woman he actually wants …

          Then where does it end? Is anyone with who they really want or are they just bidding their time until something better comes along?

          I don’t understand going out with someone for validation. While it is flattering when someone likes you, it doesn’t mean all that much if it the interest isn’t mutual.

           

        5. Tom10

           
          @ Evan
           
          Lol, as a non-American I don’t actually have strong opinions on American politics; I just think I remember Karmic saying she isn’t an Obama fan (although I may be wrong).
           
           
           
           
           
          @ Emily, the original
           
          Then where does it end?”
           
           
           
          Well I guess that’s up to every individual to answer. For women I suppose it’s when her desire for the security of commitment begins to outweigh her draw to chemistry (late 20s – early 30s?), and for men it’s when his energy required to continue looking for sex beings to wane and is outweighed by the benefits of security (mid – late 30s?).
           
           
           
          “Is anyone with who they really want or are they just bidding their time until something better comes along?”
           
           
           
          Well I suppose these comments only apply to all those perennial singles out there (i.e. here!); all the happy couples are busy lovin’ rather than commentin’. 😉

        6. Karmic Equation

          @Tom10,

          I’m definitely NOT an Obama fan. I’m a proud rider of the Trump Train. lol

          I would never quote Obama except to mock him, and I’m sure he plagiarized that quote from a law book, a quote I’m more familiar with: “Ignorance of the law does not exempt you from it.”

          ————

          I’m pretty sure you speak from experience as the hot guy the gal wants but can’t have, but you’re aware she’s dating someone else regularly. Whereas McLovin is worried about being the guy she dates but doesn’t f*ck. Because if he was on the same side of the fence as you, he wouldn’t be concerned, right?

          Maybe it’s the company I keep. The girl friends I have wouldn’t date for the comfort and then bang someone else for their hotness. If they don’t find him attractive, they don’t date him. They only date men they find attractive and with whom they believe they could have a relationship. My gfs are probably in the 5 and below range.

          Perhaps the women you and McLovin are aware of, who date for validation, are the in the 8-10 range. And if so, then I can see that happening with that league of women.

          All that said, I agree with you 100%. The onus is on each gender to look after themselves. Men shouldn’t date gold-diggers, if he can’t afford to date them, and women shouldn’t waste time on non-committal men, when she’s looking for a committed relationship.

          The bitterness espoused by people who felt they were taken advantage of by the other gender is caused by his/her own lack of self-awareness or lack of courage to end relationships that became unhealthy or dead-end.

          I would say if both genders not only dated with courage, but have relationships with courage, then  we’d see a lot more happy people with good relationship results.

          I know that many people think of successful, long-term relationships as a marriage that spans decades. I’m m0re flexible in how I define a successful LTR. I define it as a relationship lasting more than 2 years, where both people are consistently happy and satisfied during the relationship and who remain friends if/when the relationship ends, with both parties wishing the best for the other party, with no animosity or jealousy of the other person’s new relationships.

          By that definition, all but one of my relationships, including my marriage, have been good relationships.

        7. Tom10

           
          @ Karmic Equation
           
          “the Trump Train” love it, lol.
           
           
           
          “Perhaps the women you and McLovin are aware of, who date for validation, are the in the 8-10 range. And if so, then I can see that happening with that league of women.”
           
           
           
          Well the women I’ve known in that category are usually in the 6.4 – 6.8 range, i.e. just below a 7. So they’re hot enough to sleep with the 7-and-above-guys on a regular basis (for months, or even years) but not hot enough to obtain commitment from them. Yet, as they’re almost a 7 they can obtain devotion, validation and commitment from the 4, 5 & 6 guys. So they date the 6 guy as a “kinda boyfriend” and have sex with the 8 guy hoping one day he’ll come round. Which never happens of course.
           
           
           
          The 8-10 range women can get commitment/validation/emotional support from the same 7-and-above-guy, therefore they wouldn’t “usually” date two guys simultaneously.
           
           
           
          “I know that many people think of successful, long-term relationships as a marriage that spans decades. I’m m0re flexible in how I define a successful LTR. I define it as a relationship lasting more than 2 years, where both people are consistently happy and satisfied during the relationship and who remain friends if/when the relationship ends, with both parties wishing the best for the other party, with no animosity or jealousy of the other person’s new relationships.”
           
           
          I like that, and I suppose it’s the way the zeitgeist is going. Indeed, at some point in the future, not only will a series of ltrs become the norm it will actually become the aim.

        8. Evan Marc Katz

          Not for people who want to have kids, it won’t. And Trump Train? Legitimately scary.

        9. Karmic Equation

          @Tom10,

          “Well the women I’ve known in that category are usually in the 6.4 – 6.8 range, i.e. just below a 7. So they’re hot enough to sleep with the 7-and-above-guys on a regular basis (for months, or even years) but not hot enough to obtain commitment from them.”

          LMAO. I only go +/-, as in 6+ or 7-. Never so specific as 6.4 or 6.8 — How is a 6.8 different from a 6.4? Enquiring minds want to know!

          I understand about the “7” rating. I rate myself in that area. Too hot for the 6’s and below and not hot enough for 8s and above for commitment. No man’s land. Until you add a sparkling personality, wit, and humor. A guy friend told me that totally bumps me up to the high 8’s. Love that guy! haha

          Yes. I can see those 7s not accepting their “no man’s land” status and thus dating 6 and belows for validation while hankering for a commitment from the 8 and aboves.

          Goes to my other theory that if women accepted their objective ratings more graciously, they could assortative mate faster into the LTRs they really want instead of wasting time and getting burned by the 8+s who’ll sleep with but won’t commit to them.

          @EMK,

          Another 4 years of liberal appeasement and dangerous political correctness to Islamic terrorists and illegal immigrants is not what I want. I drive my liberal friends crazy with my Killary and anti-Obama FB meme shares. Had to unfriend and block a friend who was getting apoplectic about them.

        10. Evan Marc Katz

          If I were your friend, I would have unfriended you. In the words of Der Trumper: Sad.

        11. Shaukat

          Interesting that Trump talks about political correctness and sensitivity as massive flaws when he actually tried to sue Bill Maher over a joke.

        12. Evan Marc Katz

          And has revoked press credentials from any news organization that he deems too critical. I mean, seriously: a free press is sort of the foundation of the United States and this guy is a borderline fascist. Oh, don’t get me started–

        13. Karmic Equation

          If we accept this definition of political correctness:

          “Political correctness is the practice of refusing to acknowledge the truth or the facts of a situation because your words may be considered offensive to some people. This is not the same as being purposefully rude or hurtful although some may interpret it that way.” (source)

          Then Bill Maher’s joke was “purposefully rude and hurtful”, not politically incorrect as you are implying, Shaukat.

          Because Maher said — in jest, as comedians are wont to do — that he would donate $5 million to a charity if Trump could prove he wasn’t the “the spawn of his mother having sex with an orangutan.”

          Seems silly to me that Trump would have sued him as celebrities and famous folk are often ridiculed by comedians. That said, I used to like Bill Maher, but I find his sycophantish idolization of Obama nauseating.

        14. Karmic Equation

          Evan,

          Mainstream media is left. Far left. They report anything that has to do with Trump in the most negative of light, while deafeningly silent on anything that Democrats have done that are far worse than anything Trump has said.

          We will definitely not agree on this, Evan. And I don’t want you to ban me from this board 😉

          Let’s agree to disagree on our current political climate. I shall endeavor to remain silent on my political affiliations henceforward. Pinky swear.

        15. Evan Marc Katz

          I will not ban you from this board for your political associations, no more than I’d ban all of those MGOTWs who likely believe the same fact-free right-wing authoritarian red-pill b.s. You are a very valuable contributor to EMK.com and your logical skills and ability to see things from a man’s POV are unusually strong. Makes it all the more surprising that you align yourself with Trump – who only sees things from his own point of view. But yes, let’s agree to not talk about this anymore since it won’t amount to anyone changing his/her mind.

        16. shaukat

          I’ll just respond to KE’s last comment before also bowing out of this topic:

          Trump says things which are patently false-as verified by multiple fact checkers-simply because such statements appeal to his main base and because he knows that the latter won’t care about the inaccuracies. In other words, he is lying for a far more cynical reason than a comedian-to win an election-and he apparently doesn’t care if his comments further marginalize or stigmatize already vulnerable groups. So many of his comments don’t fit with the definition of PC you provided. It’s in this context that I find his statements about Political Correctness, and his lawsuit against Bill Maher, truly baffling.

        17. Emily, the original

          Tom10,
            Well I guess that’s up to every individual to answer. For women I suppose it’s when her desire for the security of commitment begins to outweigh her draw to chemistry (late 20s – early 30s?), and for men it’s when his energy required to continue looking for sex beings to wane and is outweighed by the benefits of security (mid – late 30s?).

          So, in other words, when both give up on chasing who turns them on and start looking for the safe choice? That’s a depressing answer.

           

        18. Chance

          KE said:  “Or like someone else on this board, who is actually living with his girlfriend, who probably believes that they’re heading towards marriage because they’re living together, but who has no intention of ever marrying her, due to the “unjust” laws in this country.”

           

           

          Bold quotation is pure, unadulterated conjecture.

        19. Tom10

          @ Evan

          Not for people who want to have kids, it won’t”

           

          Good point.

           

          @ Karmic Equation

          “LMAO. I only go +/-, as in 6+ or 7-. Never so specific as 6.4 or 6.8 — How is a 6.8 different from a 6.4? Enquiring minds want to know”

           

          Well it’s just a further delineation of attraction within the overall parameters of a “6” category really; so some 6s are hotter than other 6s, some are just above a 5 whereas others are closer to a 7.

           

          Indeed, so precise are my friends and I that we can look at 20 different women, assign each of them a number, and almost all of us will give them the exact same rating to the accuracy of one decimal place.

           

          Some guys go even further and go beyond one decimal place, but that’s not universally accepted protocol.

           

          Lol, ratings talk can be hilarious. My friends and I spend hours and hours discussing this very subject.

           

          @ Emily, the original

          “So, in other words, when both give up on chasing who turns them on and start looking for the safe choice? That’s a depressing answer.”

           

          Well the way I see it is that they’re maturing and making important life decisions (probably THE most important life decision) based on rationalism, sound judgement, astute behavioral observation and alignment of goals rather than making life decisions based on “feelings” and “chemistry.”

           

          Depressing? I actually see it as enlightening and, er, sensible!

           

          Incidentally Emily, what do you think of Evan’s advice to prioritize compatibility over chemistry? Do you abide by this, or is your primary dating goal to chase “someone who turns [you] on”? Have you changed how you date now in contrast with how you dated in the past, and if so, how?

        20. Karmic Equation

          Hi Emily,

          “So, in other words, when both give up on chasing who turns them on and start looking for the safe choice? That’s a depressing answer.”

          There’s a whole lot between “one who turns us on and the safe choice”. If that’s how you’re thinking (black and white only, not grey area), then that could be why you’re lacking success in finding a happy LTR.

          1) Don’t date people you don’t find attractive, whatever that means to you 🙂 — But that doesn’t mean you should ONLY date people who “turn you on” — Date people whom you’re certain does NOT repulse you, but whom you’re not certain whether you could be attracted to or not. In other words, if they’re “cute” to you. If you go “yuck” at the thought of dating them, don’t.

          2) However, attraction shouldn’t just be the “turn you on” kind, which makes it all about sex. You should teach yourself to be NOTICE  kind, thoughtful, good character, etc., those non-sexual intangibles that make a guy a good relationship partner. And then while dating try to figure out if this guy’s particular blend of cute and non-sexual intangibles are a combination that makes you happy. Are you happy to kiss this guy? Are you happy in his presence? Are you happy to have sex with him?

          I had one bf that turned me on like no other, but I wasn’t necessarily happy with our relationship outside the bedroom. My current relationship is much more satisfying. There was a lot of sex at the first month of our relationship, but 1 year later, everything is “just” good. I like having sex with him. I like the relationship we have outside the bedroom. It’s not the “safe” choice. It’s the “happy/content/smooth sailing/minimal drama/we can work things out” choice.

          @Shaukat,

          I would love to rebut, but am going to keep my promise to EMK not to get political here. But let’s just say that mainstream media, which is left leaning, is biased against conservatives. They don’t report left/right activities neutrally. So if you ONLY follow what mainstream media reports, you only get the negative side of Trump and only the positive side of Democrats. And if there is a way to spin a negative into a positive for the Dems, liberal media will spin it that way. And if there is a way to spin the positive into the negative for conservatives, mainstream media will do so. So I don’t trust how mainstream media reports on politics. At the same time, I also read what right-wing media reports with (many) grains of salt.

          Democrats are masters at political correctness, but I don’t believe political correctness to be a virtue. I feel it is a form of free-speech suppression. The side that gets “offended” gets to decide how everyone else is supposed to speak. This is akin to women telling men that men need to speak a certain way or behave a certain way so that he doesn’t “hurt” her. If a man is just living his life and communicating authentically to her and she happens to get hurt (which was not his intent), should he change and walk on eggshells for fear of hurting her or should she lighten up?

          @Tom10,

          Someday, Tom10, if you’re stateside or I’m in the UK, I would like to see your rating system in action. Would be enlightening to me, for sure.

        21. Chance

          KE, the mainstream media isn’t biased to the left.  In many (Most?  Almost all?) cases, they are attempting to capture and lock in a niche audience.  That’s why Fox News (which, btw, is part of the mainstream media in my book) has been so successful.  They realized there was a large portion of the American population that was convinced that the media has a liberal bias so they locked that niche down by presenting the news as “fair and balanced”, but really is right-leaning.  It’s just capitalism, and there is a lot of money to be made by confirming folks’ predilections.

        22. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Incidentally Emily, what do you think of Evan’s advice to prioritize compatibility over chemistry? Do you abide by this, or is your primary dating goal to chase “someone who turns [you] on”? Have you changed how you date now in contrast with how you dated in the past, and if so, how?

          Intellectually, the advice makes sense to me, but I am having trouble getting the rest of me to catch up with it, particularly in the rare instances where I get around someone I am very attracted to. It reminds me of what could be.

           

           

          Karmic Equation,

           

          Date people whom you’re certain does NOT repulse you, but whom you’re not certain whether you could be attracted to or not. In other words, if they’re “cute” to you.

          I tried that a couple of months ago in an effort to be more open. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I thought he was cute. His appearance didn’t move me one way or the other. However, he seemed nice enough and there were no red flags. But I felt no chemistry, and I couldn’t wait for the date to be over.

        23. Tom10

           
          @ Emily, the original
          “Intellectually, the advice makes sense to me, but I am having trouble getting the rest of me to catch up with it, particularly in the rare instances where I get around someone I am very attracted to”

          Snap, most of us are in the same situation, which is why we’re here on the same blog. 🙁

          Btw, I don’t think chasing chemistry is necessarily a problem – if you’re satisfied with the outcomes you’re obtaining. It’s only a problem if your dating outcomes don’t match your dating goals; that’s when a change of approach is worth examining.

          @ Christine
          “Tom, why are you stopping at the tenths?  If your rating scale is so precise, why not let it go out to the thousandths, to really split hairs–like in gymnastics?  LOL–i.e. someone can be a 9.817!”

          Well I find tenths offer a sufficient level of accuracy – further levels of classification seem spurious (although I’ve seen many guys do it) as looks only constitute one part of the overall package; maybe my friends and I would be better off putting more energy into rating women’s personalities and characters! 😉

        24. Karmic Equation

          @Chance,

          I think of ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox25 — not FoxNews — as mainstream media. As is the NY Times.

          All of those media lean left in that liberal policies/politics are spun to sound good and right policies/politics are spun to sound bad.

          FoxNews does the opposite and spins right-wing activities to positives and left-wing to negatives.

      2. 34.2.2
        Christine

        Emily, you sound like me before I met my boyfriend.  I also struggled with actually implementing Evan’s advice–even while always agreeing with it intellectually.  First, I went for the alpha males that ignited “obsessive”, crazy-making chemistry in me.

        Then, to avoid the hurt and pain that ultimately resulted in those partnerships, I swung way too far in the other direction with guys I felt almost zero chemistry for (which was also a mistake, of a different kind).

        There really is a happy middle ground between those two extremes, that I finally found.  Sorry I can’t encapsulate it into a step-by-step method, or I’d give it to you now!  But I basically did it just through learning from my mistakes and trial and error.  I want to just encourage you that it is possible and you don’t have to be a slave to chemistry.

        When you’re around someone you’re very attracted to, it takes superhuman strength not to be influenced by it.  All Evan is saying is, just try not to be blinded by it either and still keep the thinking cap on.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Christine,

          I’m slightly curious about the recurring narrative on this site: Woman dates alpha male, with whom she feels smoking hot chemistry, but he is not consistent, doesn’t offer commitment, etc. The man I have a huge crush on right now is by no means an alpha male. Neither was the last guy I really liked.

          Anyway, I’d be willing to try dating someone with whom I felt a mid-level of chemistry. When I have done that in the past, I usually start to find something I don’t like about him and then  talk myself out of it. (If I’m on that proverbial fence, I slide off and say forget it!) I’d hope I’d do something different if I was given the opportunity again.

        2. Christine

          Emily, that’s true–I’ve also known non-alpha men who were non-committal too (mostly guys my friends dated).

          I’m just curious, what is it about a guy that made you decide not to see him anymore?  I always liked to take some time to really sort out, in my own mind, what true “dealbreaker” are (and what are undesirable qualities that I can learn to live with).

        3. Karmic Equation

          “Anyway, I’d be willing to try dating someone with whom I felt a mid-level of chemistry. When I have done that in the past, I usually start to find something I don’t like about him and then  talk myself out of it.”

          I think you’re an avoidant, who loves sex. Nothing wrong with that.

          I don’t think you really want an LTR, where you may have to make compromises. And that’s ok, too.

          There is nothing wrong with having a series of STRs. When they flame out, you move on. As long as you ACCEPT that’s what makes you tick, then you’ll be happy.

          However, if you really ARE looking for an LTR, then you need to recalibrate your expectations. Instant attraction is not an indicator of long-term compatibility. High compatibility cannot generate attraction. There’s a happy medium where there’s enough compatibility and enough sexual attraction to make both parties want to pursue something deeper.

          And during the process of “pursuing something deeper” sometimes (maybe even oftentimes) things don’t work out. And that’s ok. You learn from it and you go out and find the next guy.

          If you’re looking for a guy who “turns you on” the minute you meet him who is also 100% compatible with you, you’ll be single forever.

          If you’d rather sacrifice compatibility for sexual attraction, that’s your prerogative and it’s perfectly ok. Have as many sexual liaisons as you want and don’t feel that you have failed or something. Because you didn’t.

          If you feel some sort of societal pressure to “have a boyfriend” or “be married”, ignore it. It’s ok to be be single and happily sexually active. It’s no one’s business but yours.

          However, if you truly, deep down really really want an LTR, I think you really need to adjust your expectations of what an LTR really comprises of. Your guy will NOT forever “turn you on” the same he did when he was courting you. Once the sexual bonding has been created, it’s the compatibility and how you get along out of bed that determines how well your relationships go.

          That’s why Evan advocates compatibility over chemistry. After sex is no longer “new” to either of you, compatibility is king, not sexual attraction. (Of course you should still have sex, but it’s more relationship-maintenance sex than bonding sex, which is what I term the kind of sex we have during the first few months of a new relationship.)

        4. Emily, the original

          Christine,

          I’m just curious, what is it about a guy that made you decide not to see him anymore? 

          I never should have accepted the date. I think I did what you mentioned in your earlier post about swinging too far to the other direction and said yes to someone I had no chemistry with. We work together so I had had a few interactions with him before. He was extremely, sacchariney polite. It felt fake. I am going to get eviscerated for writing this, but the boy had NO game, and a man needs to have some level of game (at least for me). Everything he did was so … obvious. I just couldn’t muster any interest.

           

           

           

        5. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          I think you’re an avoidant, who loves sex. Nothing wrong with that.

          There’s probably some truth to that. I laughed out loud when I read that. I have been reading a lot about attachment theory lately.

           

          I don’t think you really want an LTR, where you may have to make compromises.

          True, too. I am just starting to get an idea of how much compromise there has to be.

           

          There is nothing wrong with having a series of STRs … As long as you ACCEPT that’s what makes you tick, then you’ll be happy.

          Well, they’re not making me happy, or I wouldn’t be on this site. I want something more, but I’m not sure what yet. Plus, at my age (and I write only from my own experience), it is very difficult to find a quality candidate for an STR. Candidates, yes, but not someone who (sorry, we are going back to this) really turns you on. Why compromise on chemistry in an STR if the rest of the relationship will be … almost non-existent?

           There’s a happy medium where there’s enough compatibility and enough sexual attraction to make both parties want to pursue something deeper.

          That’s the question I have. How does that work? Let’s take everything else off the table. Lets assume the compatibility is high. How much do you compromise on sexual attraction? How much is enough? If you marry someone and intend to honor your vows, this may be the last person you have sex with for the rest of your days. Shouldn’t it be someone with whom the sex is really great? I mean, like, top 5% great …

    3. 34.3
      CaliforniaGirl

      Again, I really never heard any girlfriend saying she had sex after a month of dating someone. Maybe it happens somewhere but definitely not in SF or LA where I lived. Again, all my gilfriends are in their mid/late thirties and very sexual, noone will wait a month only to find out that a guy is a lousy lover or you are just not compatible in bed. And if a guy thinks I am too easy, well, then he is not for me, I have a very spesific sexual preferences and it’s a main deal breaker for me, I am not going to be with a man who doesn’t fit them and I usually can see it by second date. I don’t get attached to a guy after sex, it’s just sex and if it’s good, I want to continue our dating and surely it will be much more fun from now on. 🙂

       

      1. 34.3.1
        Theo

        I had sex within a month with every girlfriend since I was a teenager and now I’m appraoaching 50. In my opinion and experience, these things need not be difficult. If a woman finds the man she is dating attractive and boyfriend/husband material, she should gradually be more physical with him and, within one or two months, have sex with him, provided he reciprocates her feelings. If she does not find him suitable for a relationship, she should as soon as possible tell him that.  As regards sex itself, I’m shocked to hear that some men don’t give their women oral sex… I thought all men did it, certainly all my male friends say they do. I agree that bad sex is a legitimite reason for a breakup; however, before dumping him/her I think the she/he should tell the partner what she/he needs and expects. The sexlife can improve!

        1. CaliforniaGirl

          The sex life can improve if there is a potential, if a guy is selfish, lazy or doesn’t like specific things I like, for instance, sex life is not going to improve. Same vise versa, I know guys that broke up with women because of bad sex.

        2. N

          “In my opinion and experience, these things need not be difficult..”

          This. When I stopped over-thinking and let go the “when and what if” and be my authentic self detach from the outcome; dating, sex, relationship became more organic, fun, liberating and empowering. N.

    4. 34.4
      Nissa

      The best way to know if a woman likes you is if she says ‘yes’ to going on dates with you, spending time with you, talking to you. After all, if she didn’t like you, she’d just say ‘no’ and date someone else. If you really can’t figure it out, you can ask a mutual friend or one of her family members. If it’s still a mystery after that, I assume she is just not that into you. Otherwise on dates you would see her smiling at you, enjoying herself, interacting throughout the date, touching her hair, smoothing her clothes.

      I would agree with Evan that: both genders dislike feeling like they are on an interview.  If one is on a date, it would be great for that person to show interest in the person sharing the date with them.  Men do this by calling/planning/paying/general chivalry. Women do so by agreeing to the date, giving visual and auditory clues, or just being blunt by saying “I really enjoyed being with you today”. I do think it’s an ineffective strategy for a woman to be less than crystal clear about her feelings (such as finding him appealing) & intentions or to date a man once she’s given him a reasonable chance but still has not developed feelings for him. I believe that what makes a date is intention, whether it’s an intention to have a good time (of whatever variety) or to get to know someone. Either is equally valid. If your intentions don’t match, no harm no foul, just no more dates. Win-win.

      However, I never thought a man who did the reach or tried to kiss me was disgusting or perverted. I just assumed he had different dating expectations or moved faster than I did. It didn’t make him wrong for wanting something different. After all, isn’t that why you are on a date – to find out if you have matching desires in multiple places?

    5. 34.5
      Stacy2

      Ok, I waited for over 2 months to have sex with a guy I am in a relationship with. At some point he flew me to an exotic destination for a weekend and after a romantic dinner and walk on the beach I kissed him goodnight, retreated to my bedroom and locked the door. Apparently, that had never happened to him before in his life and a year later he still talks about that day and how he spent half an hour in a cold shower… There are many ways to signal your interest, I suppose I do it organically when I am in fact interested (as was the case here): answer the phone when he calls/texts, always make myself available for dates, dress up and look hot  – ie don’t show up in my work outfit and a ponytail, I would always be groomed and dressed to perfection, reach out to hold his hand at dinner, ask him deeper questions about himself, his interests, life, family, character etc.  then shut up and listen, some passionate kissing also took place. Honestly, I couldn’t imagine going out with a guy for 2 months if I didn’t like him and wasn’t interested. Spending that much time with a person I don’t like would be pure torture. I don’t go out for free meals. Life is too short.

      1. 34.5.1
        Adreana

        I so agree it can be pleasurable for both! Waiting a bit longer doesn’t have to be “boring” or frustrating(  like kissing in the kitchen for an hour) lol gosh I would’ve HATED  that too.   It’s all about heightening the senses and enjoying the person while you’re waiting for the right time. I enjoyed making out in the ocean,  whispering flirtatious things  in their ear in a crowded room, driving them crazy on the dance floor (while other men watched and envied).It was pure electricity and I miss it so much! .)

        “Spending that much time with a person I don’t like would be pure torture”.

        This is how I am. I can’t even imagine going on a second date with someone I’m not that  into-only reason if I see something there and I want to give him a chance. Also, if he’s a gentleman he will pay for the first 2-3 dates, but after that I’m happy to split the bill or alternate paying. We are not trying to use them or get free meals.

    6. 34.6
      GoWiththeFlow

      Adrian,

      Like Theo said, the best relationships I had weren’t hard in the beginning.  I had immediate reassurance of his interest.  The, “will he call me again?” period was very brief. Erotic/sexual activity increased as the connection grew.  Depending upon how well I knew the man before we started down the dating road, the amount of time to sex (oral and intercourse) was anywhere from immediately to 2 months.  The immediate guy I had been good friends with for two years prior to us going to the next level.  I don’t remember doing anything specific to let these men know I found him attractive.  It all just flowed.

      The worst entanglement (can’t call it a relationship) experience I had was where I offered intimacy because I thought it would create a relationship.  Spectacular fail.  The sex was mediocre at best since I was anxious about what was going on between the two of us.  I didn’t feel comfortable with how the “relationship” was going, nor did I trust him entirely with my feelings.  I was very young and he was a narcissist.  Big life lesson learned with that one.

      Like Stacy2, I try do dress nicely, and look sexy.  I look for opportunities to flirt.  If he plans and pays, I sincerely thank him.  I keep my phone in my purse on silent.  I pay attention.  I’m a touchy-feely girl so I tend to greet people with hugs and I’m all for good night kisses.  I will briefly rub or scratch a man on the upper back and when I lean in to talk, I’ll touch his arm or shoulder.  I compliment sincerely when an opportunity arises.

      As things progress I will say, “You’re so hot” or “I’m so attracted to you” when we are being physical.  By this time I have already cooked for him and planned dates as well.  I used to be in a MLB season ticket pool and had season tickets to the local Broadway play series, so professional baseball games and plays/shows were usually on the venue.

      Adrian, I hope that answers your question.

      Quick question for you and the other men following this thread.  When the question, “what do women do to make a man feel attractive, motivated to come back for more,” is asked, it is often prefaced with “Since he is planning and paying for dates. . .” I assume that means men have an idea of what they would like to get to make it a worth while date for them.  What makes a date worthwhile for a man?

    7. 34.7
      Christine

      Tom, why are you stopping at the tenths?  If your rating scale is so precise, why not let it go out to the thousandths, to really split hairs–like in gymnastics?  LOL–i.e. someone can be a 9.817!

      Well, as I’ve said before, I became much happier after I (finally) prioritized compatibility over chemistry.  I recall how I used to date alpha males that I had that crazy, obsessive “chemistry” for.  I would stare at my phone, agonizing over when he would text/call/email me next.  Every second that went by without contact from him felt like an eternity.  When he gave me attention, I would float on Cloud 9.  When he didn’t, it felt like the end of the world.

      Those “highs” were a very addictive feeling.  Now, in hindsight, I call these guys my “human heroin” (read that somewhere and think that’s an apt description).  Yes, they created “highs” in the moment, but were ultimately bad for me in the long run.

      Luckily, I met my guy after getting burned from types like that, and finally having enough.  If I had met him sooner, I might have (stupidly) dismissed him for being too “safe”, too “nice”, etc.  I always found him attractive (love his smile), was always happy to hear from him and always looked forward to seeing him.  And I won’t go into any detail (don’t want TMI LOL) but I enjoy the  physical side of our relationship.  Yet I somehow never felt that same obsessive feeling for him as the others.

      While some might interpret that as a lack of “chemistry”, I actually see it as a very good thing that he gives me a different feeling than exes who didn’t work out.  He’s more like a relaxing bath (whereas the others were more like stormy seas).  I think what created that “obsessive” feeling with the others was the roller coaster, he loves me/he loves me not dance.  Whereas with my guy now, I never really questioned his feelings for me because of his consistent actions.

      Actually, I really did have an opportunity recently to go back to one of those other guys I was obsessed over, when he contacted me by phone.  I ignored him and didn’t even try to respond.  I really am putting my money where my mouth is, by picking the 8 chemistry/10 compatibility guy over the 10 chemistry/4 compatibility one.

      1. 34.7.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        The people in happy relationships ALWAYS end up where you are, Christine, while the people who are single are the ones who spend an inordinate amount of time single and thinking that their chemistry will carry them for 40 years. It’s always interesting to watch the chemistry first people defend their choices – even though they don’t have partners.

        1. Christine

          Thanks Evan, I finally found the right person after getting it through my head what really matters. I went through a lot of mistakes to get here but thankfully learned from them. I couldn’t be happier now with someone who gives me both chemistry and compatibility (who I really do think I can grow old with)

      2. 34.7.2
        ScottH

        Christine-  have you read the book Attached?  It talks about the very things you mentioned and the conclusion Evan states in 34.7.1

        1. Christine

          ScottH, no, I haven’t read that book yet but it is on my lengthy list!  I’m sure I’d find it interesting, after reading other comments here about it.  I have this inkling that the obsessive feelings I had for the others weren’t healthy–and that I’ve made the right decision with who I’ve chosen now.  I prefer my mild ups and downs to the wild roller coasters I had before.

           

  5. 35
    Hildegerd

    Serously Evan, this was just creepy. Stop it.

    1. 35.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I try not to label people creepy just because they disagree with me.

  6. 36
    N

    This thread put a smile on my face. ☺ The anticipation of “thousand kisses on every inch of your body” ~J.O. is pure exhilaration!

    Now, the longest I waited to have sex with a man was 2 months. It turned out he has ED. Imagine my disappointment. But this is life. Take the good. Leave the bad.

    The soonest was unplanned 4th date sex within 1 week of meeting a man that could possibly be the The Last American Cowboy and The Mountain Man rolled into one, except, this man doesn’t own a horse. He showed up in a Ducati to pick me up. I was all dressed up! Well, if this is how he rolls, let me roll with it! I changed to my biker chick outfit 🙂 The evening was filled with flirting, hot heavy kissing, sharing life stories, spontaneous slow dancing to Purple Rain in an empty parking lot, him showering me with compliments that albeit I’ve heard in the past all of a sudden coming from this man sounded and felt foreplay 🙂

    What warmed my heart though was a simple gesture he made when we went to buy my rescue dog an allergy medicine and chew toys. I was ready to pay when he said, “please let me, I would love to do it.. I need and want to protect, to provide, to care of you and everything you care about..” Coming from a respectable man was the ultimate foreplay 🙂

    We came back to my house, lay by the poolside and gazed at the stars. Surrounded by the string of lights and the reflection of calm water, it was nothing short of magical. And since I like to initiate sex, I looked at him and bantered, I hope you brought condoms 😉 He stood up and said, I’ll find a store. I asked, what’s that on your back? Oh, concealed gun. Is it loaded, I inquired. Of course silly, he replied. Well, prove to me later 😉

    The journey of finding the right man will never get old for as long as I shall live. Get out there and savor each moment good or bad. You will come back stronger, wiser, more confident, happier and content.

     

    1. 36.1
      Stacy2

      I asked, what’s that on your back? Oh, concealed gun. Is it loaded, I inquired. Of course silly, he replied. Well, prove to me later

      Unless I am missing some sexual innuendo here, this is where I’d be frantically thinking about how to extricate myself from that situation in one piece… indeed to each his own

    2. 36.2
      N

      Correction: should have read…”to care for you..” other typos I missed please bear with me 🙂

  7. 37
    N

    Stacy2–

    He has concealed-carry permit and sometimes carry a hand gun. Do I have an opinion about it. Yes. Is it a deal breaker. No. Do I feel safe around him. 110%. Will I let everyone I hold dear be around this man. No doubt.

    He and I have differing opinions about gun control but share an utmost respect for each other and our individuality.

    He is a stand-up guy. A true alpha male standing. Strong yet chivalrous and gentle. Focus, in control, a great leader and yet emotionally in tuned. Proud and confident but never condescending to anyone. I accept him for what he is including his concealed handgun. The bottom line. This man’s man picks up the phone (dislikes texting), plans dates and trips, honest, protects, provides, speaks his mind, open to suggestions and mentally, physically, spiritually fit.

    Absolutely. To each is own. 🙂

    1. 37.1
      Sacy2

      N, he sounds wonderful. Congrats on finding the right guy. After years of living in a costal city where you can’t even own a handgun, let alone carry or concealed, my perceptions are definitely skewed 🙂

      1. 37.1.1
        N

        Stacy2–

        Thanks for being gracious. I’m from NYC. When I moved down South for work I was shocked everyone I know owns a gun including my hair colorist. I’m the only one I know who doesn’t own a handgun and feel secure living alone ib my house with my adorable, friendliest rescue dog.

        I don’t think there will ever be a day I will feel the need to get a hand gun. With that said, I’m cool hanging out with gun owners. After all, it’s as common as owning a truck down here. 🙂

  8. 38
    Paul

    It might be possible that the patterns you describe exists across the population. However, I think it is also possible theses patterns don’t exist in the average reader of this site.  There are many populations and groups that do not seek sex as vigilantly as you describe.

    I know anecdote is not science (although there is peer-reviewed research to show similar). As a late 20’s male/chemical engineer I can say that many of the men i associate with are getting married or taking it more seriously now and these men often did wait months for sex, have low partner counts (less than 3).  More intelligent men are less likely to exude the patterns you describe (this has been shown in multiple peer-reviewed studies). More intelligent men have more to lose by getting into sexual relationships very quickly.  I have seen many men leave women who did not have sex with them only to go on to date another women who ALSO made them wait for a long time but eventually stayed with her.

    And if a girl  is of high value a guy will wait if he is marriage/relationship minded. I have NEVER heard of any guy saying….

     

    She’s really pretty, humble, poise, polite, compassionate, predictable, financially disciplined, passionate about her hobbies and has a nice singing voice but… ya know… i gotta leave her because she did not have sex with me in the same season we met”

    I have however HEARD….(well really similar at least)

    “she was not very interesting was slightly rude, told me my jokes were dumb, talked over me and when she was able to discern i was upset thought she could later make up for all her inconsiderate behavior and poor personality with sex.  It’s not a fair trade.”

    In other words i know of many populations of men who do not mind waiting, who intentionally restrain their sexual desires to further their career, research, and knowledge. Although most of these men I will say did make marriage a priority and are not dating soooo….

    Then again intelligent men are significantly more likely to be married and stay married so maybe they are not an average reader of this site. However, I think more women read your site and are searching for ways to secure a marriage minded man who is intelligent……

    1. 38.1
      Tom10

      @ Paul #38
      “More intelligent men are less likely to exude the patterns you describe (this has been shown in multiple peer-reviewed studies)”
       
      Would you care to support your bold claim by posting some of the “multiple peer-reviewed studies” for the benefit of readers?
       
      “More intelligent men have more to lose by getting into sexual relationships very quickly.”
       
      How so? How does a man’s intelligence affect what he has to lose by getting into a sexual relationship very quickly? Unless you mean that he risks impregnating an unsuitable woman which exposes him to loss of resources?
       
      Paul, as a chemical engineer, surely you’ve heard of CONTRACEPTION?!
       
      “intelligent men are significantly more likely to be married and stay married so maybe they are not an average reader of this site”
       
      Again, evidence?
       
      And btw the target market of this site is intelligent, successful women, therefore, um yes, it is reasonable to assume that the average male readers of this site are also somewhat intelligent (although I’m sure many of the female readers would dispute this!).
       
      Paul, when you make bold claims linking a man’s intelligence to his sexual proclivities without actually substantiating these claims it makes me think that the “intelligent” guys you mention (of which you are one of course?) don’t actually choose to abstain, rather that they actually lack the ability to get “into sexual relationships very quickly”, and then they post-rationalize this inability as a choice in order to further their career.  Ha yeah right!

    2. 38.2
      Karl S

      I know anecdote is not science (although there is peer-reviewed research to show similar). As a late 20’s male/chemical engineer I can say that many of the men i associate with are getting married or taking it more seriously now and these men often did wait months for sex, have low partner counts (less than 3).

      I know quite a few people in science and engineering myself and you’re not wrong about them being more marriage/long term minded, with fewer sexual partners. However, just because they’re intelligent fellows it doesn’t follow that their behaviour stems from their intelligence. Correlation does not equal causation.

      There are many intelligent people in the arts and music world who engage in experimental, risk taking behaviour. A willingness to follow impulses is not linked to a lack of intelligence. Similarly, I can imagine a lot of type A personality law students and business entrepreneurs with high sex drives who have long list of partners.

      Your drawing your list of intelligent people from those in academia. The traits your ascribing to intelligence as a result is skewered.

      1. 38.2.1
        Karl S

        *edit – you’re drawing, you’re ascribing.

  9. 39
    Michelle Williams

    Kissing on the first date gets complicated for me because I’m trying to follow Evan’s advice about being more open to different kinds of guys looks-wise and going for the 7 in looks, 10 in compatibility, etc. So the attraction could be more of a slow burn and take a few dates to figure out. But maybe I’m going too far to the other side if I don’t want to kiss someone at the end of a first date (not because of principles but because I just don’t feel attracted enough?) Is that normal?

    I usually go for a midweek drinks date to keep it low pressure so it’s not always intuitive to kiss anyway when thinking about staying under the limit and getting home for work. I had a second date with a guy last night, but throughout the date I knew I just wasn’t attracted to him physically and nothing was going to make me. We had an awkward moment when he went for the kiss and I gave him the cheek. I do want to give these guys a chance, and I feel bad that I’m not attracted that way to some of these guys who are obviously good catches, but in the end I know that great sex with someone I’m attracted to is part of the reason I want a boyfriend…I don’t need another good guy friend I don’t want to sleep with, I’ve got plenty of those!

    1. 39.1
      Emily, the original

      Michelle,

      Kissing on the first date gets complicated for me because I’m trying to follow Evan’s advice about being more open to different kinds of guys looks-wise and going for the 7 in looks, 10 in compatibility, etc.

      Bingo! That’s the conundrum. If we are to prioritize compatibility over chemistry, the desire to get physical with someone will take longer, if it happens at all … and, according to this post, the guy will get frustrated.

    2. 39.2
      ScottH

      I almost never kiss on the first date.  Sometimes on the 2nd, even as late as the 4th.  if it doesn’t feel right, don’t do it.

    3. 39.3
      Shaukat

      If you aren’t attracted enough to these guys to kiss them then they likely aren’t a “7 in looks” to you.  I can’t think of any woman that I would rate a 7 who I would not want to kiss. So you might be compromising too much on physical attraction.

      Unless, of course, you’re really picky and only find the ’10’ men attractive:)

      1. 39.3.1
        Emily, the original

        Shaukat,

        “I can’t think of any woman that I would rate a 7 who I would not want to kiss.”

        Wow. That sounds like a really large number of chicks that would pass your test!

        Unless, of course, you’re really picky and only find the ’10’ men attractive:)

        I don’t rate on looks. I rate on attraction level. And a 7 in attraction is rare. Very rare. I probably haven’t experienced it this calendar year, if we are only counting men who are available.

      2. 39.3.2
        Emily, the original

        Shaukat,

        I work with a guy who has been telling me for months he is thinking about asking a fellow co-worker out. He changes his mind weekly — one week he is really leaning toward making a move, the next he has decided not to. He can’t decide how interested he is. I said, “That’s the mindset a lot of women have when they say yes to a date. They’re on the fence.” He seemed surprised by that, but I think it is common. Can you see then why a woman may not want to kiss a man on the first date?

        1. Shaukat

          Hi Emily,

          My comment was actually a response to Michelle’s post. She stated that she’s been giving the 7/10 guys a chance, but that it takes her awhile to decide whether she considers them attractive enough to kiss. So I was simply asserting that if I went on a date with a woman I considered a ‘7’, (and I’m also referring  to overall physical and sexual chemistry) then I would not hesitate to kiss her. Now whether that turned into something more serious would, of course, depend on other factors.

          I don’t at all expect a woman to kiss on the 1st date. I realize that’s rare. However, I am surprised to hear that you rarely find someone who you would consider a 7. Maybe that has to do with basic differences between men and women when it comes to mate selection and sexual attraction, as per the Ok Cupid study everyone here likes to cite. Or maybe it’s just because I live in a big city:)

           

        2. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          However, I am surprised to hear that you rarely find someone who you would consider a 7.

          There are about  3 men I work with who are attractive. One, yes, is probably a 7, whatever that means because I don’t use a numbering system. The other two are probably tens. They could model. They are nice to look at and several of the women and I ogle them collectively as a group. (Yes, women do that!) But the man I am actually most attracted to is probably a 5 looks-wise. Very average, although having all your hair and being in shape past about 40, both of which he is, probably ratchets you up a point or two. It’s all relative.

          But that’s it. It’s slim pickings, and, yes, I live in a small town.

  10. 40
    Evan Marc Katz

    Just received this from a Love U Graduate with a new boyfriend. Thought it was relevant to this discussion. The people in question are in their mid-late-40’s.

    Over dinner, (my boyfriend) shared with me how he knows he made the right choice asking me to be his girl. I was so amazed at what he shared, I wished I could’ve tape recorded it!  Here is what he shared about himself as a man, and also about men in general on dating:

    1)  He loves the fact that I never threw myself at him.  He said guys can pick up those signals a mile away and it turns off just about all of them (the good ones at least)

    2)  If he got any inclination on the date that she wasn’t into him (she was acting cool/aloof), he would not call her again – EVEN IF HE REALLY LIKED HER AND HAD A FUN DATE

    3)  He loves the way I make him FEEL – handsome, sexy, manly, in charge

    4)  He loves the way I make him FEEL in our relationship – appreciated, supportive, fun and playful

    5)  That usually men who show up with gifts on each date (Thomas!!) know they are “dating up” meaning that they are trying to win the heart of a women he feels is out of his league

    6)  Some men will buy gifts for women on occasion, but not as a dating ritual (that gets expensive!!)

    7)  That just about every guy e’s talked to in his life want to have sex with us before they commit to BF/GF.  Some will be willing to wait until after, but said not to take it as if he’s not into you if he does want/need it.  Guys who have particular sex habits or a high sex drive will often want to make sure that aspect of the relationship is solid before they commit to you (because good guys take those commitment seriously)

    8)  He LOVES that I called him pet names (cutie, handsome, sexy) since we began dating as it made him FEEL like I would be fun, easy and playful to date.  He loves that I still do, and now that we have had sex he says that the way I do it is awesome.

    9)  He also loves the playful banter with him from the beginning of dating.  Even if we weren’t having sex (during that period of time), he loved that I was playful and “went there” a few times (even if I drew the line and stepped back over it).  It showed him that I would be a good match sexually for him.

    So, although Evan has shared all of this with us at some point, I felt it was necessary to share again.  I think as women we have often been taught to “act cool” (I sure was, as were all my friends).  This is clearly the wrong approach to take as this is not the first time I have heard these things from guys (just not as succinctly as he expressed them).

    Love on!

    1. 40.1
      ScottH

      I wish there was some way I could reach out to some of your graduates and some of the people on your blog.  too much liability I’m sure.

  11. 41
    ScottH

    #2 above- how could he really like her and have had a fun date if she was cool and aloof?

    1. 41.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      That’s the point, Scott. Men don’t LIKE cool/aloof, so don’t be that way. Don’t play hard to get. Act warm and interested and flirtatious. It’s what I coach. My client is just validating that her boyfriend agrees.

      1. 41.1.1
        Ser

        What if the girl is kind of innocent and inexperienced as I am? I’m not a good flirt nor do I know how to give pet names, etc. I can be very shy and cautious in the beginning so I might come off as uninterested, but it’s because I’m a little nervous.

    2. 41.2
      Christine

      Scott, I think there are certain men who like women who play “hard to get”.  However, I think that those men are usually not the ones who are really looking for a serious relationship.  I could see those types of men liking a cold and aloof woman, as a “challenge” for them to conquer. But then, once they feel like they’ve “got” her, they lose interest and move on to the next conquest.

      However, at least in my own experience, commitment-oriented men don’t tend to like cold and aloof.  So it really depends on who and what you’re trying to attract.  If you’re trying to build intimacy and an emotional connection, I don’t think being cold and aloof will do it.

      1. 41.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        It’s interesting to read about “cold and aloof” women on dates. I tried to think back to how I was on dates. I would say that the more attracted to my date I was, the more I laughed and joked with them. The less attracted, the less I joked with them, but I was still friendly and engaged. The only time I could have been termed “cold and aloof” was when a guy showed up on our date, 20 minutes late and then was 50# heavier than in any of his pictures. (I was always thorough at looking through all the pictures in a guy’s profile.) – I was kind of p.o’d, tbh.

        If women are aloof on dates, I’m thinking that they’re not attracted and the guy should cut the date short if he feels that.

        On the “hard to get note” — I think that’s a different thing than “cold and aloof”. I don’t believe that only men who want a challenge go after the hard to get. I think it’s more that men like to know that a woman he’s interested in has a life and that she has boundaries. In the early stages of dating, if a woman already has plans, she shouldn’t break them just to date the guy. She should tell the truth and say “I have other plans that night, can we do it X-day instead?” And if the guy says, “Oh, that’s the only night I have” — sometimes HE’s playing games to see what she’ll do. When that’s happened to me, I said, “Darn that is too bad, how about a week from X day?” And if he’s interested, he’ll help reschedule.

        But the important part is not to set the precedent that he’s so important to you that you’ll rearrange plans for him. One time, I had decided that on a particular Saturday night, I would stay in and just relax. So that Saturday, I was in my jammies all day. And the guy I was interested in, texted at about 745pm to see if I wanted to meet up, and I just said I had plans (which I did, which was to NOT go out!) — He accepted that answer. We eventually became bf/gf. I didn’t hurt my chances with him by sticking to my decision (of not going out when I really wanted to once he texted! lol). I happen to think that because I had boundaries and lived within them, that HELPED us get into a relationship. YMMV

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          When I hear that a woman/women are “cold and aloof” on dates, I wonder if nervousness, anxiety, or introversion were the issue.

          As for playing hard to get.  It may work for a very attractive woman who is interested in a 9-10 level guy who has a lot of women orbiting him that are highly ingratiating and accommodating.  The HTG behavior makes her stand out from the other women.  Beyond possibly getting her noticed, I don’t think deploying HTG tactics get her much.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Hi GWTF,

          There is a fine line between “playing” hard to get and “being” hard to get.

          The former has no life and no boundaries and just trying to play a game.

          The latter has a life and stands her grounds on boundaries, even if it’s just with herself.

          Both can get some guys, but only one is authentic.

          The distinguishing thing “thought” that’s different between the two, is that in both, the woman really wants to date the guy. But in the former, she’s ALREADY setting the precedent (before they’re even in a committed relationship!) that she’s willing to turn herself into a pretzel for him. In the latter way, she’s learning to maintain her independence DESPITE her (almost agonizing) desire to be with the guy.

          The latter teaches a woman self-control, the former doesn’t teach her anything, but does teach the guy that she values HIM more than herself, not a good precedent to set.

          The main difference between what a woman wants and a man wants from a relationship, is that a woman WANTS to be the center of a man’s universe (except that when she IS his center, that usually means the MAN has no life and often becomes her stalker when things don’t work out. Men who make a woman the center of his universe are usually controlling and possessive, as well as jealous. We really really don’t want that!).

          However, for men to REMAIN interested in a woman, she has to remain a bit out of reach. She CANNOT be his 100%, she has to reserve 10% for herself. And she has to NOT feel selfish about that. One easy way is to indulge in a passion or hobby that does NOT include her husband/bf. Sometimes it’s just as easy as taking a “me” day, like going away on a spa retreat for a day or a weekend.

          If you haven’t already, read Esther Perel’s “Mating in Captivity” — she talks about “total transparency / intimacy” killing the “spark” in relationships. I absolutely agree with that assessment. A man loves a woman more when she keeps a little bit of herself to herself, where he can’t reach her. She maintains her “otherness” in this way.

          And, imo, the woman who maintains her 10% independence, if you will, she has an easier time recognizing the relationship’s boundaries (whether she’s being lax or whether he’s overstepping) — and has a much easier time distinguishing what is a “dump him” behavior from a “bite-tongue/roll-eyes and let it  go” behavior 🙂

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          I finally read Mating in Captivity recently after having it on my kindle forever.  Some of what she wrote brought up a lot of memories of things my mom and grandma would say when I was too young to really understand it all.

          My mom routinely waited until my dad was out of the house for a several hour time block to do her beauty routine stuff, like coloring her hair, soaking her dentures, putting green goo on her face etc.  When I asked her why she did this, or teased her about it, she would say, “Romantic illusion will fade on its own, but that doesn’t mean you need to singlehandedly destroy it.”

          My grandma used to talk about how people had so many “expectations” compared to back in the day.  She would say that when she got married, she was prepared to be part of a team, but she never expected my grandpa to be everything to her every moment of every day.  My grandpa wasn’t a big talker, he was a quiet man.  My grandma loved company and conversation.  She had a few close women friends, one her sister, that she had very emotionally intense relationships with through decades of life.  They also had separate hobbies.  My grandpa would spend hours on woodworking, my grandma gardened and loved flea markets and antiquing.

          As for acting vs. being hard to get.  The problem with advising women to be HTG, having boundaries and a full life, is that women are told to act HTG, i.e. they tell people they are busy when they’re really sitting at home stewing over their single status.

        4. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          However, for men to REMAIN interested in a woman, she has to remain a bit out of reach. She CANNOT be his 100%, she has to reserve 10% for herself.

          I actually like that behavior in a man. They shouldn’t give everything away within the first few weeks. I lose interest if I know every little thing he is going to do before he even does it, and we’ve only been dating a month.

        5. Karmic Equation

          I wouldn’t advise women to lie about their busy-ness 🙂 That IS playing. I know, I know, staying home when I wanted to go out SOUNDS like playing games. But it was not. I had determined earlier in the day that I was going to stay in and relax. To that end, I spent the day in my jammies. No shower. Just being totally lazy. So when he texted, I would have had to spend 1.5 hours getting ready, which I didn’t want to do. Too much work!

          That was when we were in the “courting” phase. Once we were in a relationship, I did rearrange my time around his schedule, most of the time. I just asserted my independence in other areas.

          The point is that a woman SHOULD live a full life, not put it on hold for a man. However, if she’s really home “stewing” that she’s single, then she should go out on the date. But if she’s home because she earlier in the day she decision to have a date with Ben & Jerry’s and was happy with that decision, then she should KEEP that date. It’s a mindset thing. She needs to teach HERSELF to maintain reasonable boundaries.

          I have this thing I believe in…If I’m just starting to get to know man, and miss him a lot, and am craving a connection via phone call or text, I do NOT contact him. Some women would call this not calling him when I want to, “playing games”, but I do not. I call it exerting self-control. And it is beneficial for two reasons:

          1) If I can exert that kind of self control when I’m craving his company, I can exert self control in biting my tongue later on. And controlling my insecurities and anxieties that go along with a new relationship (if it ever gets off the ground) will be a piece of cake compared with controlling that my behavior when in that “craving contact” stage. In fact, that day I turned off my cell phone and took a nap because I really really wanted to text him and forced myself not to. I was so relieved when he contacted me. We had a 2-3 sms exchange and we both felt better for it, I’m sure.

          2) I believe that if the connection is real, that as much as I’m missing that man, he is ALSO missing me in the same way. And this has held true in my subsequent relationships. I think it was in Sherry Argov’s “Why men love bitches” book where she wrote that “Women fall in love in a man’s presence; men fall in love in a woman’s absence.” Men may not know what “love” is, but they understand and put a lot of stock in his “missing her” feelings. If a man misses a woman, that is his clue that he has feelings for her and usually is the impetus for him to seek a relationship. Men don’t like that “missing her” feeling, trust me.

          That’s what happened with my current bf. There was one day during our courtship when I almost went crazy craving to see him. And after we became a couple, I told him about that day and he said that yes, that was the day he missed me a lot too. (He’s not smooth, so he wasn’t just saying that to mollify me. In fact, he doesn’t have a filter. So he just says what he feels regardless of how rude it could sound to the other person. lol. — So I knew he was telling me the truth, cuz he just blurted it out that he did miss me that day.)

    3. 41.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      ScottH,

      Women do get mixed messages about what they should say and how they should act with men:  Play hard to get vs. be upfront about your interest in him.  Usually, instead of it being such an either/or thing, we have to navigate a path between differing sets of needs and expectations.

      For instance in the list above how does a woman find the sweet spot between #1 not throwing yourself at a guy and #2,3,4 making a guy feel that you are interested in him, appreciate him, and find him attractive.  Another concern is figuring out the right time to have sex with a guy.  Too early and you run the risk of being dismissed as girlfriend material.  Wait too long and he may consider you a prude and walk.  The right behavior with one guy can be the wrong behavior with another, so a woman can feel she’s trying to hit a moving target.

      BTW, for #7 above.  I have never met a guy who ever said his sex drive was anything but strong 😉

      1. 41.3.1
        ScottH

        Hi Go

        I believe Evan is one guy who says that his sex drive isn’t that strong.  There are definitely guys out there whose drive isn’t as strong as some women’s.  Mine has tapered off at my age (52) but I’d say it’s tapered off to a comfortable and reasonable level.  I doubt many men would admit to having less than a strong drive just because it goes against the very basic essence of being a guy.

        As far as navigating a path between differing sets of expectations, that applies to guys too and in so many areas of life.  I’ve adopted the philosophy that you can’t do the wrong thing with the right person (one of Evan’s sayings).  Also, if you are left wondering about certain things and have to google certain behaviors, it might not be right.  If you like each other, little stuff just doesn’t matter and the couple will make things work out.  I just met someone recently and asked her to see me again rather soon.  I was wondering if it was too soon but hey, she wanted to see me too and it worked out.  This is how it’s supposed to be.   (I met 4 women in the last week, whew…. )

        BTW, I’m reading a great book, Getting to Commitment by Steven Carter.  His books are the best therapy I’ve ever had and I’ve had a lot!!!  I highly recommend this book for anybody in the dating pool.

      2. 41.3.2
        HH

        Too early and you run the risk of being dismissed as girlfriend material

        Only by a sheep-minded person who isn’t really “boyfriend material” himself.

        I know what I am talking about.

         

  12. 42
    Karmic Equation

    @Emily, (starting new post since the other one is getting so long 🙂 )

    “That’s the question I have. How does that work? Let’s take everything else off the table. Lets assume the compatibility is high. How much do you compromise on sexual attraction? How much is enough? If you marry someone and intend to honor your vows, this may be the last person you have sex with for the rest of your days. Shouldn’t it be someone with whom the sex is really great? I mean, like, top 5% great …”

    I was friends with a man for about a year and a half before he asked me out on a date. I thought he was funny, kind, mature, sincere. I thought he was attractive, but he wasn’t the kind I was typically attracted to. So I knew he was bf material, but I was uncertain of my attraction for him, so I thought I’d give it a go. On our first date, we had a great time, he picked me up, took me to dinner, then we went karaokeing at two different places (we’re both pretty good karaoke singers and that was how we met). Anyway, since I already knew a lot about him, and already knew he had great bf qualities, I spent the date asking myself, “How attracted am I to him?” “Can I see myself french kissing him?” — Maybe. “How would I feel if he touched me intimately?” — Alright, I guess. “How would I feel about touching him intimately?” — Couldn’t answer that one. So I’d say it was really a no, but I didn’t want it to be a no since I knew he was such a good doobie.

    We had a second date. Less formal, met for drinks and apps. While we were chatting away, I studied him and tried to imagine being intimate. My mind kind of rebelled. I wasn’t repulsed by him at all, as I thought he was attractive, though not “my type.” But I couldn’t picture myself being intimate with him. There was no date 3. Just the way it goes. I didn’t feel badly about it. Sometimes there isn’t that click.

    Now the boyfriend before him. I remember the first moment our eyes met. He was the bartender at a new bar I decided to try out. He carded me. Looked at my license, looked back up into my eyes, and held my eyes a little longer than was decent, and said “Wow, you look amazing.” (What was unspoken was “for your age” lol which was 45 at the time). I felt like someone had punched me in the stomach. Instant attraction. But I was humble. I figured he was saying that to get a bigger tip. So I smiled, thanked him, and then ignored him for the rest of the night. Eventually he did become my bf and sex with him was amazing right up until we broke up. However, our relationship out of bed was rarely comfortable. It was very roller-coastery. The very opposite of ALL the other relationships I’d ever had before him. While I always recall our sexual chemistry as a 10, our relationship-chemistry fluctuated between 3-7. It was never a 10. Our relationship lasted about 14 months. I missed him terribly when I ended it, but I was also more relaxed. I was tense during our relationship and very not-me-like throughout it.

    Current boyfriend. I noticed him as one of the few guys in the pool room I frequent that I didn’t know. I thought he was “interesting” looking. About 3 months after I first noticed him, we finally spoke. And after the ice was broken, he made a point of saying hi to me whenever he saw me, and after league, he would shoot with me until the pool hall closed. During that time, he morphed from a stranger that was interesting looking to a man I found sexually attractive. He also morphed from a stranger to someone I thought was a good person, since as we were shooting pool we’d make small talk and asked each other questions about work, family, hobbies, etc.

    Now I think he’s soooo handsome. And sex with him is good. It was never a 10, but I enjoy sex with him. When he wants sex, I’m happy to accommodate. Our relationship outside of bed is great. We literally spend every non-working hour together. A few fights here and there, that were easy to resolve.

    Do I miss the 10 sex? No. Did I miss it when I was single and not having any sex? You bet I did! lol

    Did I miss the roller coaster relationship? Not a bit.

    And if someone were to offer me another 10-sex and 5-7compatibility relationship, would I want it. NOPE!

    Would I miss my current 6-7 sex and 9-10 compatibility if it were to end? Absolutely without question.

    If you think about the amount of time a couple spends having sex (after month 3, when you’re rarely banging like rabbits anymore and have settled down into a routine), let’s say 4-5 hours a month, and compare it to the all the awake time a couple spends together NOT having sex, which in our case is about 71 hours/week, 284 hours/month, you can kind of see why it’s more important to have out-of-bed-compatibility than a sizzling 10 sexual chemistry.  Simply because the amount of time you spend in each aspect is not even close. 5 hours of 10-sex would not make up for 284 hours of time spent in a mediocre relationship.

    Find a process. Date, ask yourself if you can see yourself having sex with him. Ask yourself if you like him as a person. Then if/when he kisses you, ask yourself how you feel about that. Does it feel good? If good let it continue. Physical chemistry does NOT have to be amazing for you to have a good relationship. However, if you have a good-to-great relationship, if sex is “just” good and not “amazing”, you won’t care. But you’ll definitely care if the relationship is mediocre even if the sex is great. (Isn’t that where you often ended up at and why you’re on this board?)

    1. 42.1
      Emily, the original

      Karmic Equation,

      Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response.

      However, if you have a good-to-great relationship, if sex is “just” good and not “amazing”, you won’t care.

      Yes, I would care. At this point in my life, I still want the sex to be great. I’ve experienced really great sex with two men, and I am hoping I have at least one more experience like that ahead of me before I get off this planet.

      But do I think about having a quality relationship?  Yes. Like I do a 401K. You mentioned societal pressure to be married or have a boyfriend in your earlier post. That doesn’t so much concern me as the way society is structured and what it values. I don’t have children (didn’t want any) and almost no family. Friends aren’t people you can really expect anything from. So if you don’t want to spend most of your time alone, a partner is really your only option. As I get older, it is something I am seriously considering. Reading other peoples’ experiences on this blog has been informative and helpful. I live too much in my head and tend to get too myopic in that I assume everyone experiences things like I do, which is ridiculous. But I agree with you completely. For a long-term partner, you want a quality person with good character.

       

       

       

       

       

       

      1. 42.1.1
        Buck25

        Emily,

        I don’t know exactly what “at this point in my life “is for you, but I know at this point in my life, I’d want great sex too, and I’d want my partner to feel like she was getting the same. My experience has been that great sex is part chemistry with that partner, part emotional bond, part skill, and just as important, both having the willingness and the desire to make their partner’s experience as wonderful as possible. One thing both men and women sometimes fail at is that last-valuing their partner’s satisfaction as much as their own

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Buck25

          The great sex comment was in response to Karmic Equation talking about the compromise necessary for a long-term relationship. I think she said with her current boyfriend the sex is a 6-7 but the compatibility is a 9-10.  I responded that I am not yet ready to make that compromise. I am still holding out for a 10 sex. I’ve had it twice in my life. It’s not a common thing and not easy to find. (I’m talking about the kind of sex people write novels about.  🙂  )    When I get that out of my system, maybe I’ll be ready for something with a little more depth.

      2. 42.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        Emily,

        How many LTRs have you ever been in? Let’s define LTRs as exclusive relationships lasting more than 2 years.

        I’ve been in 3 LTRs (11 years (marriage), 6 yrs, 4 yrs) and been in 3 STRs (14 months, 11 months, 8 months). And the current relationship is at 14 months. There were a couple ONS and FWBs sprinkled in between.

        In all of them sex always started out hot (except one, but that one became the hottest but also the least safe-heard-understood relationship I’ve ever been in).  TBH, if you really just want hot sex, FWB is better than an exclusive relationship with hot sex.

        Because the problem is that after 3 months into a relationship (prob 6 months real time, 3 dating no sex, 3 exclusive with sex), sex is no longer “novel” with our partners, and the novelty was a factor in what made the sex hot in the first place. So novelty wears off and sex is less hot. Meanwhile, we start noticing more of our partners faults. We notice our incompatibilities more. And if you can’t compromise on accepting those faults or overcoming the incompatibilities, it makes for an unsatisfying relationship at best. Or you cut and run because you realize he can’t meet your needs either in or out of bed anymore.

        In an FWB relationship, you’re only in it for the sex, so the both parties usually make sure it is as hot as possible for the other so they can continue with the FWB set up. And usually FWB is infrequent. You see each other infrequently. Thus you have sex infrequently. Thus the sex remains novel for a longer period of time…and extends the hotness of it. And because it’s FWB, you don’t concern yourself with the other parties faults or incompatibilities, because after all, you don’t have to live with any of it as that is not the nature of the relationship.

        STRs morph into LTRs when both parties accept that the decline in the hotness of sex is offset by the increase in compatibility (through compromise or natural selection or pure blind luck 🙂 ). Hot sex cannot be sustained over 40 years. I submit that it can rarely be sustained over 40 sexual episodes. lol

        You can have great sex at the beginning of any relationship, short, long, or NSA.

        However, if you want an LTR, you need to accept that even if you still get the same great orgasm from your guy, time after time, year after year, that orgasm, while “great” when your relationship was new, becomes “good” over time.

        Time does more than heal wounds. Time changes our perspectives on things. Remember when you turned 21 and how great it was that you could finally drink legally? Do you even think about how great it is you can drink legally now 20 years later? Do you think about that milestone at all? No. It’s just something you accept as normal.

        That’s what I mean about “not caring”. If you’re in a good relationship, time reprioritizes what’s important in the relationship. Sex will still be important, but it’s not what you’re thinking about as being important. You’ll only notice if sex goes missing or changes to bad. But if it remains good but never be great again (or maybe occasionally great, due to different venue or learning a new position, etc) — you’ll be ok with the “just good” sex. As long as the relationship is still good. If the relationship turns bad, you might think that the lack of “great” sex made it bad, but that wouldn’t be the truth.

        Let’s put it another way:

        1) Good relationships will survive with good sex.

        2) Bad relationships can survive with great sex. But great sex cannot be sustained over time, so this kind of relationship rarely lasts. Or if it does, it’s probably those love-hate relationships we know about.

        3) Bad relationships may survive with good sex. But there will be an expiration date.

        4) Good relationships may survive with bad sex. But there will be an expiration date.

        5) Bad relationships will NOT survive with bad sex.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          First of all, nothing I wrote to Buck25 about your original comments to me was a criticism. I actually quoted your verbatim.

          In all of them sex always started out hot. Don’t agree. I’ve had relationships that the sex started out at about a 5 or 6. It was fine. It was pleasant, but rarely great. For me, just two situations were “great.” And they were great from the get-go. One was a FWB; one was a STR.

          And usually FWB is infrequent. I’ve had a FWB who I met up with one to times a week. Like clockwork.

          TBH, if you really just want hot sex, FWB is better than an exclusive relationship with hot sex. I never said I was looking for a long-term relationship. I said I had one great sexual experience left to satisfy and THEN I would look for something more serious.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Hi Emily,

          I wasn’t criticizing you when I asked about your LTRs. I asked because it seemed to me that you hadn’t had any and seem to have unrealistic expectations of how sex and LTRs interrelate.

          “Don’t agree. I’ve had relationships that the sex started out at about a 5 or 6. It was fine. It was pleasant, but rarely great.”

          If sex was merely “pleasant” in the beginning then why did you enter the relationship? You shouldn’t stay in relationships where sex is NOT hot at the beginning. At the beginning, sex SHOULD be hot, but compatibility might be lower. If the relationship is a good relationship, the compatibility GROWS even as the sex becomes less hot. If you have less-than-hot-sex at the beginning, it’s only going to get less hot not more hot over time. That is a complete waste of time.

          “For me, just two situations were “great.” And they were great from the get-go. One was a FWB; one was a STR.”

          And these make my point. FWBs and STRs tend to be hotter than LTRs. STRs usually end when the hotness wears off and one or both partners realize that the other isn’t compatible. That’s why they’re short. FWBs stay hot because of the infrequency and lack of commitment. Who cares if neither are compatible with the other. There’s no pressure to become compatible.

          As I’ve said previously, just looking for great sex is fine.

          But great sex and good relationships aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s just great sex can and will become less great over time in a good LTR. Emphasis on “good”. Also “good” usually doesn’t become bad sex over time. “Pleasant/fine” sex only remains pleasant and will never get to “good”. Shoot for good/great sex and good/great compatibility. Any combination thereof will make a lasting relationship. Meh sex/meh relationship will never work. Neither will pleasant/pleasant.

          Again, not criticizing your history, but am criticizing your thinking process about LTRs and the relevance of “great” sex in that context.

        3. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          FWBs and STRs tend to be hotter than LTRs. Not necessarily. Sometimes, the FWB sex is just convenient.

          FWBs stay hot because of the infrequency and lack of commitment. I’ve had 2 FWBs in which we met up at least once a week. To me, that’s not infrequent.

          If sex was merely “pleasant” in the beginning then why did you enter the relationship? You shouldn’t stay in relationships where sex is NOT hot at the beginning. Pleasant may have been the wrong word choice. But just because the relationship is new does not mean the sex is hot. Sometimes it’s a 7 or 8 but you really like the person and have a mental/emotional connection. Have you ever read Helen Fisher’s stuff? She wrote that sex and love are governed by two different parts of the brain. Sometimes, you can have average sex with someone you are madly in love with and fantastic sex with someone you barely like. My point was that a 10 sex is rare, even in the beginning of a relationship. For there to be a 10 sex, you need a 10 sexual attraction/chemistry and a high level of sexual compatibility. I haven’t been with that many people where the chemistry was a 10 and I immediately dug what they were doing physically.

          For some reason, you keep circling back to the LTR. Again, I’m not looking for that right now.

  13. 43
    Isa

    From the tenor it seems as if since a man is paying for dates, women ought to give them sexual favors?  Last I checked that was prostitution.  Now, that is a perfectly reasonable profession, but I’m not sure prostitution training school will stand you in great stead as a wife.

    I never had a problem attracting men who were willing not to push incredibly hard sexually (after I explained it made me uncomfortable), nor have my sisters.  The point is to just look at communities of men that come from more traditional societies or religions.  Pretty easy pickings if we are talking about Orthodox Jew, Muslims, Rad-Trad Catholics, etc.  As for countries, everywhere that wouldn’t be considered a western nation, so Africa, Asia, South America, and especially the middle east and North Africa.  You also get the benefit of learning another culture and having bilingual children.

    As with life, it is about identifying the pool with the best opportunities and diving in.

  14. 44
    Gabe Asher

    The more I am into a girl, the longer I will wait. Never longer than say, six dates, even for my ‘dream girl’.

    BJ thing is a non-event for me, as I want to see her naked. Very important for me. I’ve clicked with many girls and after seeing them naked/having sex with them, I became uninterested. I want to get to that ‘make or break’ part quickly, so we don’t waste eachothers time.

    1. 44.1
      Bailey

      you sound like a real prize

    2. 44.2
      JLB

      And how do you feel about her if every other guy she dates does the same thing as you?  1-5 dates and she’s having sex, then moving on if they don’t like it.  Wow.

      1. 44.2.1
        Buck25

        @JLB

        Or moving on, if SHE doesn’t like it. Same difference, and I’m perfectly good with it, either way. I’m not saying we need to jump in bed on a first or second date (probably not the best idea from either perspective), but at some point, when we’ve figured out that we’re interested enough in each other to want to try being exclusive. I think it’s reasonable to for me to know what kind of lover she is, and for her to know what kind of lover I am. Why? Because sexual compatibility’s an important part of a relationship, and if we’re not good for each other in that department, we both need to know that, as soon as we’re both comfortable finding out. Is that an emotional risk? Yes, and so is everything else in a budding relationship.

        1. JLB

          Buck25 I agree with you, but that is not what the OP said, he said by date 6 so he doesn’t want to waste time if it’s not good for him…if you are at the point of wanting to be exclusive, and both parties are ready to take it to that level.  I agree it is very important and also realize it is no guarantee either.

  15. 45
    Buck25

    Gail,

    Very thoughtful post, and (in my opinion) a reasonable and very healthy attitude. Good for you!

  16. 46
    J

    I don’t consider blowjobs the same as sex.  It’s foreplay.  My body doesn’t bond and crave a man after a blowjob, like it does after sex.  That’s not to say that I give blowjobs out to every man I date.  But it’s a way to have fun and increase the tension without getting too involved too soon.

  17. 47
    Monica

    How about this as a compromise, Evan? A man can pay a hooker for blow jobs and sex while he gets to know a woman and she gets to know him. A blow job IS sex and if he needs his needs met before he even knows what my favorite movie is or how I take my coffee, I am better off alone. No one is ENTITLED to sex. For me, it is the expression of love and if a man doesn’t love me, he isn’t seeing me naked. If that means I am alone, then so be it but that is a sad statement about men.

  18. 48
    Tyrone

    Monica

    It’s sad that you think a man wanting to have sex with a woman that he likes is sad. Evan never said you had to do anything that you weren’t comfortable with. It shouldn’t be a shocker that men like sex and bjs. And if you don’t feel comfortable doing those things until you and the man are in love, that’s fine. But it does mean that you will probably have fewer options. No one is entitled to sex with you. And you aren’t entitled for anyone to wait for your love before sex. My take away from the podcast is that we need to find middle ground. Because if you genuinely like a man, it’s not all about you and your feelings. You need to accommodate for his and vice versa. See things from another point of view. The blowjob thing is just an example.

    The point is to figure out a way to show/express interest in some type of an escalating way so that both parties know things are continuing to move forward. If he wants to move forward sexually and you don’t, where are you willing to bend with this? What is your compromise solution? Or does he have to just go along with whatever you decide no questions asked? If it’s the latter, it’s more likely that the guy will just go date another women – not get a hooker and keep hanging out with you. Like Evan said, you can say that it’s the guy, that it’s an incompatibility issue. But if you find it happening over and over, it could be your process that is incompatible with the majority of other people’s. Nothing is wrong with this. But you can’t go around saying that other people are sad because of it.

    1. 48.1
      Adrian

      Tyrone said, “does he have to just go along with whatever you decide no questions asked?”

      This was my only point in the other post about the three controversial issues Evan brought up. We all know that men will go along with women’s wants as to not be labeled negatively, but where is the equal exchange if relationships (even in the courting stages) are about BOTH people?

       

      That is all I was trying to ask?

      You and others were looking too closing at the blow jobs, the kissing, and the giving of one’s address, while I was mainly focusing on the intent of the woman to give something to man as well as receiving from him; a desire to make it fun/pleasurable for him.

      1. 48.1.1
        Tyrone

        Adrian

        I see what you are saying. I was focusing more on those because you specifically mentioned them so I apologize.

         

        I think that in the very beginning it’s going to be a one sided event in favor of the woman’s wants. She has already initially started receiving if we assumed he asked her out and paid for the date. If she is into him and wants to keep him around, and loosely using those three examples, she’ll have to concede them in some matter to accommodate for his feelings and let him know she likes him.

         

        If I had to pick a “when” I’d say it should happen when she decides she wants to see the guy more because of genuine interest. I consider first dates more of a meet and greet. So it doesn’t bother me if a woman doesn’t want to kiss, touch, etc. But if we agree to a second or third date, she should concede in some manner in order to express her interest. If she isn’t willing to kiss, maybe something like a long hug or hand holding might be a workable compromise. That’s the give and take. But as the relationship progresses, so must the expression of interest – no one likes being stuck in the hug zone!

         

        If we are talking about things that make one uncomfortable, your comfort level should increase over time if you are interested in the person you are seeing. You may have to give more, particularly if you are the party that has been holding back. And I think that we can generally set somewhat reasonable expectations for this. This is where it gets kind of iffy and person specific.

         

        But if the person in question only sees things from their point of view, they may think that the somewhat reasonable expectations of others are completely unreasonable and just get upset. And that isn’t helpful in finding a relationship. But it is that person’s prerogative – man or woman.

  19. 49
    Kendra

    My best friends (2) and I all went through divorces at same time, 3yrs ago. None of us gave expert or very often bj’s while married. Since divorce, we talk about it, learned how to by online tips, and have really tried to b good at it! I enjoy giving it my all if I am highly interested in the man. We have experienced that it does bond him to you, when u may want to move on, he will come back! One friend has had a few stalkers! Also have found they almost always want to return your efforts! We like knowing we are skilled at it and it gives you confidence! Especially since we barely did this activity in our marriages! It is easy to tell if they only want you for this purpose or something more meaningful! Also, at my age (40’s), some men also have missed out on this in unloving relationships as well! It is good health to have this, mutually, my friends and I agree! A glass of wine is helpful!!

  20. 50
    HH

    Funny how people tend to assume that it will be the man who’ll want to go “fast” and the woman will, at best, acquiesce… 🙂 I am actually smirking here – hence the smiley – because the last time I had sex, a few weeks ago, it was I who seduced a man, openly proposing sex, even before a first “date”. (We had only met the day before.) We kept seeing each other for about a fortnight;  then I had to return to my country. We’re still in touch, though.

    And BTW, I am in my fifties. 🙂

    But then, I have always slept with people on the first date, with no pressure imvolved, because if I am interested in a man enough to kiss him (and I wouldn’t go on a date if I weren’t), I might as well go all the way. All of those men (not very many, in total) developed warm, tender affection towards me, fast – which is not really surprising if you know men… and if you aren’t a cheap, vulgar type of person. It’s all down to that: the kind of person you are, the kind of interpersonal dynamics you manage – because there is nothing cheap or vulgar in sexual availability, or indeed, uninhibited sexual self-expression, per se.

     

    P.S. This being a love or/and marriage-seeking community, I might add I didn’t fall in love with any of them, even though I did date two of them for several years, so we were a “couple”.

     

  21. 51
    Nicole

    is there a transcript for this podcast?  I’m deaf and can’t understand this.

  22. 52
    Natalia

    I have come across Evan’s blog two years ago, and since that time I swear by his teaching and recommend it to everyone. Evan, you have really uncomplicated my dating life, and I am forever grateful! I have followed your advice, and now I have a great man in my life and I am very happy.  However, I am really perplexed after reading this discussion.

    Like many other women here,  not in my worst nightmare would I see giving a man a BJ before we become fully intimate and he treats me like his girlfriend. I would never equate a BJ to paying for a date 1, 2, 3 or 4.  To me, a BJ is way more intimate than sex. It’s definitely only for boyfriends, and only after a relationship has reached a certain level of intimacy and trust (let’s say, sadly some x-BFs never even got there).  I also do not kiss on a first date, particularly if my date is from a dating website. In those few years I heavily dated, I would sometimes have first dates with 2-3 new men in a week. That would be A LOT of frog kissing, if I had followed the kissing advice! First dates were just to meet face to face and decide if we wanted to have a second date. More than one guy confined in me afterwards, that they could not read whether I liked them or not on a first date, and it made them nervous and more interested. I also always waited with sex at least until after a date 3, and never had sex with a man when I was at his place for the first time. These are not some inflexible rules I follow; this is just what makes me comfortable and makes me feel I can trust a man. I am very surprised to hear that a man would not want to wait this long (and 4-6-8 weeks is not that long!). I dated men in their mid-40 to mid-50, and every man that liked me waited patiently until I was comfortable with moving forward. I have only dated educated successful men. Not sure if that had something to do with their patience. I did come across some other men, who were fickle and/or insisted on having sex after date 1 or 2 and made sure they did not invest much of anything into me prior to sex, but I considered those men way below my league and was not interested in them. I am well familiar with pickup teachings and techniques and I am not impressed by any of that.

     

    I do have to say I do not live in LA, thank goodness! I also grew up in another country and was not conditioned since middle school years to see BJ as not a sex act. I am pretty but not a 10 beautiful; and I am sweet, considerate, affectionate, classy and sexy, as my men say. In my experience, if a man likes you or is intrigued by you, he’d wait withouth any BJs.

     

    1. 52.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Natalia, as long as what you’re doing is working for you, keep doing it. If not, that’s what I’m here for.

  23. 53
    Jennifer Oneal

    What if you give a man oral sex that’s HIV POSITIVE ???? Evan Marc Katz, have you also advised women to ask for brand new STD blood work results ??????

  24. 54
    Evan Marc Katz

    Single in the City, to be clear, you’re suggesting that “guys act like adults” means “guys moving at the same sexual pace they did in seventh grade.”

    I’m suggesting that this is not particularly realistic. There has to be some middle ground between kissing and intercourse. If you insist on sticking with kissing for a month, that’s your right, but a lot of men are going to get frustrated. That doesn’t mean they’re “not adults,” but rather that they have their own pace/timeline that differs from yours. Doesn’t make them wrong.

    The best daters (male and female) are the ones who give their partners what they desire. You want a man who calls, plans, pays and follows up? He wants a woman who finds him attractive and acts on her attraction towards him. That’s not really news. Whether you choose to participate in this is your decision.

    Finally, as to your claim that “most women simply don’t enjoy giving blow jobs,” I’m not sure if that’s a personal anecdote or a scientific one; all I can say is that in the last few years that single, I didn’t have intercourse with ANYONE I was casually dating, but I did stick around on third base with quite a few. From my vantage point, it didn’t seem like I was getting “obligatory” or “mercy” blow jobs, but then, I assumed that if it was consensually taking place, the act itself was consensual, not coerced.

    As always, if what you’re doing is working for you, keep doing it. If not, perhaps my explanation will give you another path. Best of luck either way.

    1. 54.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I would shy away from getting exclusive sooner because in my research, you have MUCH more information as to whether he’s boyfriend material after six weeks than you do, say, after two weeks. Go around the bases for a month before committing to intercourse, rather than sleeping with a virtual stranger who decides to call you his girlfriend in a fit of passion.

    2. 54.2
      Marika

      Wow, you have a LOT of friends who you’ve openly discussed blow jobs with, Single! I’m going to go out on a limb and say ‘hundreds’ is possibly a slight exaggeration to prove your point..?

      Consider me on the opposite side of that. If I like the guy, find him attractive and he’s enjoying it, going downtown for me, is a pleasure and a delight. I know I don’t speak for all women and I’m sure that some don’t like it, but I personally find it hard to believe that hundreds of women have told you they don’t like it (and hundreds of men have told you that women they dated don’t like it).

  25. 55
    Sylvana

    ok … I’m confused. Don’t have sex with him too early, but don’t wait too long. Sigh. It seems like there’s no winning this game. Yet giving him a BJ is all right? Because he’ll respect the woman giving him head  so much more than the one sleeping with him.

    I think if a woman takes too long to decide if she wants to sleep with a man, she needs to evaluate why that is. If the length of time is out of the norm due to her own personal standards, she should inform the man of that right from the start, that way he can decide if he is all right with it or not. If not, they both need to find more suitable partners.

    Personally, I think way too much emphasis is put on the whole sex thing. If the chemistry is there, have fun. If not, move on to someone you have chemistry with. I would never consider anyone for a serious partner if I didn’t know for sure we are sexually compatible. I’m an addict, so the man needs to be able to keep up, and needs to be rather kinky and creative. One would think that would be easy to find, but it turns out a lot of men talk a big game, but do not deliver.

    But whether you’re on the highly sexual spectrum, or the less sexual spectrum, sex is a big (although definitely not the most important) part of a relationship. There is no use getting to a point where feelings are involved before you find out you are not all that compatible. I’d rather get that part out of the way earlier on.

    As a high testosterone woman, and a sex addict, I fully understand the need for release. Still, to suggest men are owed sexual satisfaction because they paid for dates is ridiculous. That is straight up reducing women to hookers. If they’re not all right with waiting any longer (and – lord forbid – can’t use their own hands for a while longer), they need to stop dating that person. A woman that reserved will not change that much in a relationship.

    As much as women will likely roast me for this, but their hang-ups about sex will not be so easily overcome just because they date. Once again – find a man more on your level of sexuality, or with a more compatible attitude.

  26. 56
    Princess Buttercup

    How about some downtown action for the ladies? I don’t want to get into a relationship with a guy who thinks I should blow him but doesn’t want to reciprocate. This “try it before you buy it” mentality goes both ways. Show me a good time, and I don’t mean bowling.

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