Lust – Why Men Are Attracted to Some Women and Not Others

loveu-podcast-episode-39

Lust is not a choice; it’s an intense, animalistic, primal feeling. But why do men lust for certain women? Why do you lust for certain men? Join me on this Love U Podcast for an exploration of why lust is a great feeling – that says nothing about your romantic future whatsoever.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Emily, the original

    I think what fuels lust is someone’s unavailability, the feeling that you can’t quite posses them. Maybe it’s a sex buddy who doesn’t want anything more or a casual boyfriend who only wants to see you once a week. If it’s someone you are already really attracted to and you can’t quite get your hands on them (at least not for very long), the constant chase is going to drive you a little crazy.

    1. 1.1
      Stacy

      Emily,

      It’s called maturity…unavailability is no longer seductive to me and frankly, it’s now a complete turnoff. When you get a little older and you’ve been through a few things (I am in my 30s now), you realize that wanting to possess what cannot be yours is dysfunctional and a desperate cry to feed our vanity especially when we are lacking in self esteem.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        The very nature of lust implies some level of unavailability. You continue to want it because you can’t have it (or have it completely). If you can have something whenever you want it, you no longer lust for it. This post was about lust. Not romantic attraction or love.

        1. Callie

          I think that’s your definition of lust. I’ve definitely felt lust towards men I’ve been in relationships with. And I suppose, now that I think about it there was some element of unavailability to it because I’d be sitting across from him at a dinner party and just wanting him so badly but couldn’t have him because stupid dinner party.

          This whole emotionally or physically unavailable kind of lust though? Honestly, that’s never been my cup of tea. I find it more depressing or frustrating to not be able to be with someone I have feeling for, it doesn’t stoke my fire as it were. So I mean, I get it, I get why you are attracted to things you can’t have, it’s not unusual. But just for the record, you aren’t every person. And others have other things that make them lustful and denying their experience and insisting yours is literally the only kind of lust is . . . well it’s weird honestly.

        2. Emily, the original

          Callie,

          I certainly never implied my definition was the blanket definition for all of humanity. But I think Stacy writing that wanting what you don’t have  means you are vain and lack self esteem seemed pretty ridiculous, too.

          My response was to the podcast. Did you listen to it? Evan said that, of all the women he lusted after, he dated only one of them, and it did not go well. So by those scenarios, with the one exception, wanting something you don’t yet possess is … lusting after it.

           

        3. Callie

          I do agree it is not vain lusting after someone you can’t have, absolutely.

          But I also disagree that lust is as Evan describes it and that alone. That’s how he’s experienced it, I will not deny his experience, but that isn’t the only way to experience it. And it sort of seemed like people were saying that was it. Forgive me if that was not at all what was intended.

        4. Stacy2

          This whole unavailability thing gets old really, really soon. The older you are, the sooner. In my 30ies now I really don’t care for this crap. I second the ones who said it does not make me want someone more, it’s just a buzzkill.

        5. Emily, the original

          Callie,

          I think the main idea of the podcast is that lust is an intense, visceral response to someone. Not something you have much control over but not indicative of anything beyond that feeling. It can intensify if the object of it is not available to you because they remain a fantasy.

          Certainly, people can feel lust within a relationship, but the feeling (and I’m making a vast, sweeping generalization here) moves into romantic attraction/love over time.

           

        6. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          If I may ask, what is the longest that you have been in a relationship?

          And if you don’t want to answer that, then: do you believe that people who have been in long relationships or who have been married for years can no longer lust for each other?

          My question is based off of your comment in 1, not your rebuttal to Callie.

        7. Stacy

          Emily, it is one thing to.lust after what you can’t have.I get it. That in itself isnt necesssarily a bad thing. But to constantly chase what you can’t have simply because you can’t have it IS dysfunctional and comes from a place of our ego which ties into our own vanity. I see nothing ridiculous about this. I did not say everyone who lusts after what they cant have has low self esteem but I think that constantly chasing what you can’t have is also directly related to your feeling of self worth if you are rejected constantly bUT persist in pursuing it anyway.

      2. 1.1.2
        Estie

        Love to you, Emily!  You are spot on, sister.  You’ll find love, as you have understanding, and you won’t settler kids’ stuff.  All the best.  Keep the faith (in your ability to love).  I’ve just found my soul-mate, my life partner, my true love.  NEVER saw it coming, but some of things Marc has written, resonated with me, made me think it through, made me make room!   Love to you both!

  2. 2
    Adrian

    Hi Evan

    I hope that one day you would consider doing a panel with all your guest of female dating experts to talk about your most controversial stances. I would love to hear the back and forth with you ironing out those issues.

    The reason I want to see this is because 9.994 out of 10 times I agree with you, but on these issues about 90% of the female commenters disagreed with you-these are post with at least a 100+ comments.

    So as a heterosexual male (I think you said we are 4% of your audience) I am always torn on should I follow your advice or the general consensuses of the female commenters.

    Off the top of my head the three most controversial post you wrote were:

    – the one about a woman kissing a man at the end of the first date

    – the one about a woman giving the man a blow job if she plans on making him wait months before having sex with him,

    – and allowing a man to pick her up from her home for a first date.

    I would be curious to hear a discussion between you and a few female dating experts on those or any of your most controversial subjects.

    ….

    Something else I hope that you would consider doing on a future podcast is taking a caller question or answering a email question live.

    The comments section for the podcast speaks volumes of how thorough you are with addressing subjects verse your regular post. I would love to hear you attack a question in which you had 30 whole minutes to address it verses 2 paragraphs like in your post.

    And to make sure that you are not just giving away free coaching, maybe you can restrict the questions or calls to only people who signed up for your love you program.

    …    …   …

    My final question is which (if any) of your programs would you allow straight men to sign up for? I think so much of your advice is gender neutral, any man or woman who followed it would become a better partner; and I would love to sign up for your current Love You program because I could always use advice on being more confident in dating.

  3. 3
    Tyrone

    Adrian

    – the one about a woman kissing a man at the end of the first date
    – the one about a woman giving the man a blow job if she plans on making him wait months before having sex with him,
    – and allowing a man to pick her up from her home for a first date.

    Is this advice that we as heterosexual males can even follow? I think we would have to defer to the female in all of these cases and judge our own feelings accordingly. The advice is meant to be generally effective. But we still have to assess each situation.

    I don’t think there should be anything controversial about Evan’s view on any of those stances. I mean we are talking about how women can attract/retain/marry men. There’s no sound argument that blowjobs and kisses wouldn’t help in this endeavor – unless you are dating a man that hate blowjobs. I think the supposed controversy comes because some people interpret that advice as mandatory. Like Evan is telling them they just have to drop down to their knees and take it. Or that he is telling them to do something they are uncomfortable with. And that is a silly way to interpret and piece of advice.

    A kiss after the first date would definitely do a lot to let me know that the woman is still interested. But is she doesn’t want to kiss someone she doesn’t quite know yet, I can understand. And I’m good with blowjobs. But if she doesn’t feel comfortable with that I wouldn’t necessarily walk due to no sex. And I am willing to pick a woman up at her home – it’s supposed to be chivalrous and all, but I fully understand if she doesn’t want to for safety reasons.

    I think the advice (as much as it could be) for us regarding those topics would be the same as the advice to women – do (or go along with) what you are comfortable with, but know that it may or may not be the most effective tactic going forward. But if it works for your specific situation, then its all good.

    1. 3.1
      Adrian

      Hi Tyrone,

      I understand what you are saying, but I feel that most complaints by men on this site are that the first few months of dating seems “ALL” about the woman. I’m not saying that this is true-I am just saying that this is the impression I have gotten from reading thousands of male comments about the subject of courting.

      Ask/approach first to make her feel desired, risk rejection to make her feel worth it, do all the paying, planning, calling, initiating. Make the first moves in regards to initiating monogamy, kissing, sex, moving in, marriage, etc.

      And what does the guy get in return, he gets a chance to be on a date with her; that’s it. If he complains or refused to initiate, he is called a beta because “real men” love to naturally do all those things for a woman.

      Evan is saying that it should be more 90/10, if a man is giving a woman so much time and effort, then at the very least she can make him feel desired. I think posters like Chance campaign for courting to be more 50/50 but I don’t ever think that will happen.

      Anyway, like you admitted about yourself some men would be happy to go months without sex just to be in the presence of certain women. Some men would be happy to go weeks without a kiss from a woman just for the opportunity to be able to be out with her, and some men would gladly not be offended if a woman gave him fake numbers, refused to give him her address, and even use fake first names until he proves he is not a serial killer; all just for the chance to be able to be out with someone like her. Or because he is so afraid of appearing as an aggressive man a.k.a a rapist to her.

      However, I (and I believe Evan) am in the camp that believes that all stages of a relationship (even courting) should be about give and take. YES, The women should not feel that she has to give the man anything, BUT relationships are about BOTH people not just the woman.

      This is what I get the feeling (from reading all the female comments on those subjects) that many women don’t understand or they understand but refuse to see any other side that is not their own.

      – I hugged him, he should be happy with that. Why should I care that he felt undesired when I rejected his attempt to kiss me after the date?

      – We fool around and make out, he should be happy with that-it’s only been 3 months. Why should I care that he feels sexually frustrated and his needs are not being met every time I send him home with just a kiss?

      – I meet him half way, he should be happy with that. Why should I care that he feels like I am subtly implying that he could be a rapist or murder every time I refuse to give him my address?

      I guess what I am hoping to hear with a discussion between Evan and the female dating experts is yes a woman should never do something that makes her feel uncomfortable and of course her wants and feelings matter, BUT if a relationship is about TWO people, then where does his desires come in? And how?

      1. 3.1.1
        Callie

        I think women should care about those things. I think they should think, “Huh okay he wants to move faster than I’m comfortable with, and gets personally offended that I care about my personal safety and would not give out my address to anyone, male or female, until I got to know them better. I guess I should end it with him since we are clearly incompatible.”

        Here’s the thing, there is compromise, “Hey I want Italian, you want Chinese. How about we have Chinese for dinner and go for Gelato for dessert?” And then there’s someone in a situation made to feel uncomfortable and pushed past their boundaries. If you as a man have boundaries that you feel are being pushed past, or insecurities that you feel the woman is not reassuring you about, then it is absolutely your right to either speak up or end the relationship/date. It is not your right, however, to demand that the other person become uncomfortable to make you feel less so. Sometimes people just aren’t compatible and that’s okay. You move fast, find a woman who also moves fast (there are many who do). You need to have an address right away, find a woman who isn’t as nervous about that kind of thing. But don’t demand another person compromise their sense of safety so you can feel less bad about your desirability.

        And ditto for the woman, as I said above. If you’ve expressed you need these things and she can’t give them to you, she shouldn’t demand you just deal with it. She should end it too.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Callie,

          I remember you and I had a similar conversation before, so let me ask you, have you ever been offended by something a person said or did that was NOT meant in an offensive way but you took it that way?

          A follow up question to that is: Would you consider yourself perfectly immune to ever being unreasonably offended by someone in the future? Would I mean is, is there a chance that someone’s well meaning actions or words could offend you on day ever in the future?

          As as side note: If you re-read my question to Evan as well as my response to Tyrone I never said anything about forcing or demanding a woman to do anything to make her feel uncomfortable and mentally/emotionally making her feel guilty for not doing so.

          You also stated that I get personally offended by a woman caring about her personal safety, but I never said that. Yet I am curious, have you ever had someone negatively stereotype you simply because of something you could not control? Something you had no say over like what gender you were born?

          And I mean negative like dangerous we should avoid or fear her? Have you Callie?

          …   …   …

          As far as the subject of lust, I remember you once mentioned that you love to flirt with people outside of your relationship in an innocent way because your boyfriend knows  and trust you.

          So I would love to know your opinion on how does a person know the difference between someone showing them attention because they are actually interested in them and a person who is doing it because they just love the attention it brings?

          I read in a body language book that about 98% of men can not tell the difference between a woman who is just being friendly and a woman who is actually interested in him.

          If you were a third party standing on the outside observing a man and woman interact, how would you know the difference between the woman who is actually interested and the woman who is just friendly flirting?

          …   …   …

          As EMK’s site only known thespian, would you consider a play a good or bad first date idea? And what type of play? I figure something short and not boring.

        2. Callie

          “have you ever been offended by something a person said or did that was NOT meant in an offensive way but you took it that way?”

          Yes.

          “is there a chance that someone’s well meaning actions or words could offend you on day ever in the future?”

          Yes.

          But here’s the thing. Regardless of my yes, you have neglected to ask the follow up question. Because while absolutely I have been offended by someone that did not mean something in an offensive way, the question then comes: “How do you handle it?”

          So for myself, I have either followed up with a conversation that clarified it wasn’t intentional and gotten over it, or have understood that my own personal offence was an irrational emotion, not the fault of the other person, and, again, I got over it.

          It’s okay to be offended.  But I don’t think it’s okay to hold onto offence that once understood isn’t actually personal and is no longer what we originally thought to be offensive (there are other offensive things that even inadvertent are just plain offensive – racist language, for example etc). As adults we have to understand that just because someone made us accidentally feel bad it does not mean we should make them change their behaviour nor that we should dwell on it.

          To put it simply: yes I’ve been offended, and once I realised I was wrong to be offended, I’ve gotten over it and moved on.

          “I would love to know your opinion on how does a person know the difference between someone showing them attention because they are actually interested in them and a person who is doing it because they just love the attention it brings?”

          Well hopefully the person knows that the other person is in a relationship and would never cheat on their partner. Interesting that you remembered that we had a conversation on this but not the content where I also explained it was par for the course for actors and I did this with other friends who knew me.  I would never flirt with a complete stranger because I wouldn’t want them to feel like they had hope with me that way. It’s all about context.

          “As EMK’s site only known thespian, would you consider a play a good or bad first date idea? And what type of play? I figure something short and not boring.”

          Ooh! I like being called that, thank you! 🙂

          It totally and completely depends on the person. I think one ought to plan dates based on the personalities involved not in the general. I also personally tend to prefer dates where I get to know the person. Watching a play is a couple hours sitting in silence not interacting with someone (ditto watching a movie) is not my ideal. As for what to see . . . short does not necessarily equal not boring. Again, this is very personal. I love musicals, some find them interminable. I love Shakespeare (is there anything longer really?) but others do not. On the other hand there are some current modern One Act plays I find insufferably pretentious.

          Basically I think a play is better as a date later on. Once you know each other and once you know what you both like. The exception might be is if you meet at a play or something and are both talking about another one that you’re both looking forward to and you’re all, “Ooh let’s go together!” 🙂

        3. Adrian

          Callie said,

          “But here’s the thing. Regardless of my yes, you have neglected to ask the follow up question. Because while absolutely I have been offended by someone that did not mean something in an offensive way, the question then comes: “How do you handle it?

          So for myself, I have either followed up with a conversation that clarified it wasn’t intentional and gotten over it, or have understood that my own personal offence was an irrational emotion, not the fault of the other person, and, again, I got over it.

          Darn it! (^_^) You are right Callie, it’s just being negatively labeled simply because I was born a man just gets to me

          (when I was 10 I was once falsely accused of pulling a very expensive and dangerous prank at summer camp simply due to the fact that I was the only boy <notice I didn’t say only student > around at the time.

          Before, during and even after the real criminals <a group of girl> were caught; the camp coaches keep saying it’s what boys do we know he did it and he had to do it because boys are the ones who…. They even had me stand in front of the entire camp and berate me accusingly until I confessed and tried to incite everyone against me so I’ll just say I did it).

          So blowjob, and kissing on the first date doesn’t get to me, but whenever I hear someone saying “she is just being safe,” in my mind it equates to “you are guilty for being a man until proven innocent.” Now like the example you used last time, if she would say, well that is close to my job and we can meet on lunch break. It’s a lie, but I don’t mind… because I don’t know it’s a lie.

          Again it is not the non-giving of her address that I have a problem with, it is the feeling of being treated a certain negative way-though I realize that if you have never experienced red-hot in your face prejudice (like I did at camp because I was a boy) then Callie you can not relate to how I fully feel and therefore it makes sense you will see my feelings as being as you said “irrational”.

          And… you are right! (^_^) To a degree they are and I have to work on that. Anyway thanks for tolerating this conversation with me Callie, I know I can be exhausting at times. It still hurts being assumed guilty until proven innocent, but you are right and I have to suck it up and not get offended. Of course I want a woman to care about her safety.

          …   …   …

          As far as you saying, “it is interesting that I don’t remember you only did this with friend?”

          NOPE! (^_^) I barely remember if I ate eggs this morning… I remember over-all points, not small ones.

          But you are a type of person (professional actor) that I rarely if ever have a chance to meet, let alone talk to! So whenever I can, I try to listen to what you have to say to see your perspective.

          As you probably know, television has made (at least to me) most actors seem so NOT like people I want to be around, but I find a lot of your comments are refreshing.

          You don’t come off as a Jennifer Lopez, the diva type who thinks we normal people should be honed that she is even talking to us.

          …   …   …

          I figured you were right about the play for a first date idea. I only thought of it because the girl who I’m kind of talking to now expressed a love for plays.

      2. 3.1.2
        Tyrone

        Adrian
        Courting is about the woman. That’s kind of the point. To show her that you are a good man, can provide, are generous, etc. Woman in general still aren’t willing to pay for first dates, so I don’t see 50/50 courting happening either. I don’t think these are issues worth complaining about, but I can understand where some of the complaints come from. Typically the initial courting/dating is imbalanced. But men and women aren’t equal in the sense that they are exactly the same. I agree with give and take as well. But the giving and taking doesn’t have to be equal in every item. I think men definitely put in the legwork up front during courting. and the give and take is balanced in favor of the female. But take a married couple. If one party works more outside of the house, the other may do more work inside of the house compared to the other person in order to balance things out. That’s give and take as well, but not 50/50. And we are perfectly fine with that. I think the general idea is that these individual give and takes kind of average towards 50/50 over time in a relationship.
        Anyway, like you admitted about yourself some men would be happy to go months without sex just to be in the presence of certain women. Some men would be happy to go weeks without a kiss from a woman just for the opportunity to be able to be out with her, and some men would gladly not be offended if a woman gave him fake numbers, refused to give him her address, and even use fake first names until he proves he is not a serial killer; all just for the chance to be able to be out with someone like her. Or because he is so afraid of appearing as an aggressive man a.k.a a rapist to her.
        I get that women do this because these things have happened to me. I use Google Voice number for dates because there are stalker women out there. And for that same reason I get not giving out an address. I always suggest meeting in public. But if they wish for me to pick them up, I have no issue with that. Obviously there are the bad apples out there that these women are concerned about. But there are also the guys out there that give up seats for women and intervene if they see something happening to a woman. I think there is some fear mongering out there that blurs the lines between reasonable safety and paranoia. Like being afraid that a man could be potential killer/rapist. If this fear is so deep it keeps your form talking on the phone or meeting at public restaurant, dating is not for you and you probably need some therapy. Any stranger could potentially be anything. And women don’t like when men say “all women do/are this” any more than men like is when women say “all men do/are this”. I think we as men in general do our best to make women feel comfortable. And I think that is expected of us. Especially in the initial dating/courting phase.
        I would say his desires are there, but (initially) her desires trump his – and men seem to be ok with that. We are generally good with courting – the approaching the paying, etc. Like you said, there are those in the 50/50 camp that hope things will change, but they probably won’t. I honestly don’t think that any man REALLY likes paying for food/drink/entertainment for strange women. But like I said, I think decent, well-adjusted men like to make the women they like feel comfortable. And of course do things to make a woman like them. Those men then are more willing to do things they don’t like, or not get things they want in order to accommodate those women. To that end I would say his desires (strictly on his end) come in when he wants them to. Like Evan says, men will do what they want to do. I think we could safely say that what we may do in general is accommodate women until we get whatever it is that we are trying to get (friend, commitment, sex, etc.). Or until we don’t feel like what we can get is worth the accommodation any longer. My ex went vegetarian for a while. I let her talk me into it because she said she wanted us to be healthy and it would hurt for me to try it and all that jazz. I did it even though I didn’t want to in order to make her happy and get her to leave me alone about it. But after like a month I didn’t care if she was upset about it or wanted to nag me on the matter. I started eating meat again!
        We all comfort threshold. After paying for 4 or 5 dates, a guy might be displeased if it appears that a woman is doing none of the giving and all of the taking. So if she doesn’t feel comfortable with kissing, sex, etc., then she’ll need to figure out a better way to express her interest that fits within her boundaries and (is she wants to keep him around) satisfies his. There are those women out there like you mention that feel like there should have to do anything. And if those feelings and tactics are working, I’d ask them why the hell they are here in the first place. Their desires are active when they want them to be. In the examples you gave, it was at the beginning of the dating interactions. Like you mentioned, some people don’t want to look at other points of view. I’ll just throw in my two cents on these based on some experiences I’ve had:
        – I hugged him, he should be happy with that. Why should I care that he felt undesired when I rejected his attempt to kiss me after the date?
        She should care if she wants to see him again. But depending on the man, he may choose to hold off on his desire in order to make this woman feel comfortable and continue pursuing her. How long he does that depends on him. Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t go on with this for more than about 2-3 dates or so depending on the timespan of the dates. Then I would move on. I set that rule for myself after going on dates a women that seemed interested but didn’t “act” interested for every weekend for about 2 months. No hugs no kisses. Just a “Thanks for dinner, we should do it again next weekend”. I just stopped asking her out. Never heard back from her either. Went on several dates with a woman that admitted she couldn’t see us as being more that friends and had come to that conclusion on the first date, but decided to give it a go. I would have rather not spent money of food and entertainment for someone that wasn’t interested in the first place. But that’s how it goes sometimes.
        – We fool around and make out, he should be happy with that-it’s only been 3 months. Why should I care that he feels sexually frustrated and his needs are not being met every time I send him home with just a kiss?
        Stomping on the boundary line – depending on what “fooling around” is. I have no issue wanting a few months for sex from a woman I like. I think the longest was 4 months or so. But fooling around and sexual frustration can be a different animal depending on the circumstances. I will probably get some flak for this one, but I kicked a woman out of my house for something like that. We’d been on a few dates. Ended up at my place. Making out. Fooling around. Clothes come off. I suit up – it’s go time. She says “Hold on. I changed my mind. I’ve decided I’m not going to have sex with you”
        Me = confused but fine
        I ask if her if everything is ok. She says nothing is wrong. She just doesn’t want to give it up because I haven’t “earned” it yet.
        Me = irritated and still slightly confused
        I say I don’t really know what she means by that but whatever. Then I ask if she didn’t want to have sex, why are we naked in my bed with me wearing a condom. What changed between now and 20 seconds ago. She says “I decided that I want to make you work for it.”
        Me = visible angry
        I ask her why she is trying to play games. She says “I can’t just give it up to anybody. If you want to call this a game, then I guess it’s a game.”
        Me = fucking pissed
        I say “OK that’s cool. I have a game for you then. It’s called get the fuck out of my house.” She asked if I was serious. I said very and told her that she was doing too much talking and not enough leaving. She insulted me in some rather colorful ways before she left. She called me about a week later apologizing and asking if we could get together and talk. I told her that she talked too much and she should’ call me anymore. She said I was and asshole and it was my loss.
        – I meet him half way, he should be happy with that. Why should I care that he feels like I am subtly implying that he could be a rapist or murder every time I refuse to give him my address?
        No issue with this at all – at least in the beginning. At some point we will to go to the other person’s house to spend extra time together, have a home cooked meal, share in home hobbies, sex, etc. I would say it’s not unreasonable to expect this after 6-7 dates depending on the timespan. I’d be willing to buffer that up depending on the circumstances and the general interest of safety. But any longer than that and I will assume things aren’t progressing and the woman is paranoid past general safety and just move on. I had a legit female stalker for several months. We had only gone on a couple of dates and I told her I wasn’t interested. She got my address from a friend of mine that worked at a bar that we went to on one of our dates. She went there and told him she was supposed to be coming over for a booty call but forgot the address and didn’t have her phone to call me. He thought that since he’d seen me there with her before and she was cute, that he was doing me a favor. So I get it. But you can’t hold every man/woman accountable for the crazies.
        I don’t think you can really put a firm “where or when” your partners desires come into place. I guess it would just have to be when you are interested enough to consider them as a likely partner. If you alienate the stranger too much, they won’t reach that point. But I would be odd to be overly accommodating to the stranger as well. So I think that common human decency and a genuine attempt to see the other side of things is good enough at first. Then if you decide you want to continue to get to know someone, you have to start being more mindful of accommodating for their feelings and desires.

      3. 3.1.3
        Marika

        @Adrian,

        Don’t worry, I’m not going to attack you ;). I actually want to thank you.

        The way you expressed this I haven’t quite heard before, in so many words, and what you wrote made me think about the man’s perspective a bit more. I think you’re right! A lot is expected from a man in the early stages of dating and he does have to give, be patient & understanding, be generous, read between the lines etc, while the woman just has to say yes and show up (don’t attack me peeps, I know I’m simplifying :))

        So I can see where you’re coming from and I’m grateful for your perspective. I used to be a bit hesitant to kiss on the first date (not like a rule, but some level of caution), but I’ve eased up completely on that if I like the guy and he seems nice, I also go out of my way to thank them for paying and choosing the restaurant, I’m much more understanding if they are late or need to change plans, I try to pay for at least a drink on the date etc..

        And that’s largely due to hearing from you and Evan and others about the male perspective. Writing it seems ridiculous that I wasn’t so aware of this before, it’s just common courtesy, but I think women have often been taught that the man HAS to be chivalrous, HAS to be kind & funny, HAS to offer to pay, HAS to follow our lead with regard to being intimate etc. and we don’t think about his needs. (like you say, he’s supposed to just be happy to be with us – but in this culture of online dating, that’s no longer such a big prize for him!!).

      4. 3.1.4
        S.

        Hi Adrian!

        I read your comment after I wrote mine.  In mine I speak a bit about what’s going on in a woman’s mind during dating.  So much of it is about feeling safe with a man.  It’s not necessarily that I feel a man is going to attack me somehow. It’s not necessarily about physical safety.  It’s about emotional safety.  When you become physical with someone, you’re letting them into your heart.  There it is.  It’s hard with oxytocin and biology for a woman not to become emotionally vulnerable.  If I made out with someone for three months without sex (interestingly this has not happened to me, but I’m going with an example from your comment) it would be for three reasons: 1) I’m afraid of being vulnerable. If we have sex, then I’m on my way to falling in love with him and he may not quite be ready for that.  2) he hasn’t initiated it to go further and I’m waiting for him to, or 3) I’ve decided to be celibate which if that’s the case I should have mentioned that early on and I wouldn’t be in makeout sessions anyway.

        Numbers 2 and 3 are highly unlikely.  So usually it’s 1.  But how do you tell a guy that? He wants in your pants in those moments, not necessarily into your heart.  We’re not supposed to talk about the heart.  Is he my boyfriend? Did we discuss what we both wanted when we moved to an exclusive relationship?  If he’s my boyfriend and we are on the same page physically then that shouldn’t be a problem. Most women want to be good girlfriends, you know? We want to make you guys happy and keep you. 🙂

        I have had the issue with giving out addresses or my last name to men online.  Sometimes, I’m just not ready.  Usually this is a man I’ve been on one date with.   Sometimes I feel like this is a man who is really going to hurt my feelings if I let him into my life.  So I can see that men think we think they are a rapist.  But for me, it’s not that. For me he’s not just asking for my address or my last name.  He’s asking me to let him in and I may not be ready after one or two dates.

        We women are just trying to protect our hearts.  It’s interesting how attached you can get to someone you may have only spent eight hours with in person, though there may have been countless phone and e-mails.  How to be on the same page? Talk! Bring it up.  Bring up how you feel.  That you feel she thinks you are potential rapist and then she can say that if she has sex with you, she might fall in love with you quicker than you’d think.  If a man were to reassure a woman that he’ll try his best to look out for her heart and he really wants her to be his girlfriend, that he also wants her in his life, that would go a long way to her feeling safe and vulnerable enough to sleep with him.

        I wish we could have such honest conversations!  I truly think that’s a way for both people’s needs to be heard and met.

  4. 4
    Adreana

    Amazing podcast, Evan.

    Do you think when we ( women) are tired or not feeling our own sensuality, it’s hard to feel that animal attraction towards someone? Let me give you an example, I went to the beach recently with friends…and eventhough there were gorgeous men, I didn’t feel anything  towards them…just noticed they were attractive. But, after laughing and swimming in the ocean, all of a sudden I found myself being  attracted to more than one guy.   I wonder if men feel the same way, or do they get hit with that jolt of attraction/aliveness when they see a beautiful women no matter what state they are in?

  5. 5
    Jen Conger

    You look good in drag, Evan. 🙂

  6. 6
    WM

    Just because it’s “chemical” doesn’t mean it’s “nothing”. It is actually tens of thousands of years of human evolution and is perfectly designed to keep the species going. Chemistry is extremely powerful and should not be underestimated imho

  7. 7
    Kanga

    Lust for me came down to smell.. then skin (still smell), voice, eyes, smell, skin… It was primal and it was dangerous.  I wanted to crawl inside his skin and breathe him in. He had to say NO to me, lol.. on more than one occasion.  He was also the very worst person I could have had that reaction to and therein lies the tragedy.  I doubt very much I’ll feel that with someone who is actually a stable person and that sucks.  I have accepted that fact but I’m not happy with it!!  I am at this moment talking to a long time friend re-found and he delights me with his wonderful, witty and intelligent conversation and I admire him greatly but I’ll never want to breathe him in and crawl inside his skin and that sucks.. He is successful, fairly attractive and stable. And this situation is exactly why men say women only fall for arseholes.  It’s primal and it makes no sense at all. Such is life, I guess.

    1. 7.1
      b

      LOL creeeepy But I cant agree more. Some guys smell damn freaking good to me and no Im not talking cologne. Its much much more subtle and primal and I GO crazy when I am around them. Almost licking them, dancing, and barking, and growling like I wanted to mate haha

      Then theres good guys who I want nothing to do with sexually but they all want me. but I cant get over how I dont want to kiss or make love to them but just have intellectual debates and joke around.

      Such is life! ITS def not fair.

      1. 7.1.1
        Emily, the original

        b,

        Your post summed up beautifully the way of the world. There are the men you enjoy chatting with, bantering with … and then there are the men who set who-ha aflame ….

        1. B

          Hahaha yah…cant agree more.

        2. Kanga

          Yep not fair for sure.  I didn’t even know that feeling existed until I met the last man and I was 44!  Never felt that way before – it’s also why I ignored every single red flag to continue the relationship – I was practically walking through a sea of red flags that were on fire and NOPE didn’t want to know about them. I can literally watch that happen to men for me and feel nothing and that is very, very sad.  Those are men I want to be friends with. And that is why they complain about the friendzone.  I also have absolutely no idea how that is ever going to change unless by some miracle I actually meet a man who ‘sets my who-ha aflame’ who also isn’t a gigantic arsehole.

        3. Emily, the original

          Kanga,

          I also have absolutely no idea how that is ever going to change unless by some miracle I actually meet a man who ‘sets my who-ha aflame’ who also isn’t a gigantic arsehole.

          I don’t know, either. Why is it that everything in life that is good for you has to taste like steamed broccoli? But what you really want — though you know it’s unhealthy but so damn good — is a big dollop of that homemade chocolate mousse?

  8. 8
    S.

    I liked that you said, “You’re allowed not to be feeling it.” Chemistry is a thing.  It’s not that we should ignore that.  I just think we shouldn’t be a slave to it.  It should have its appropriate place in a relationship. It shouldn’t be the only thing driving a relationship.

    (I still wish you’d get to the meat of the podcasts earlier, which is usually after the break.  We know what lust is. :-))

    Lust is not a conscious choice. No, but we make other conscious choices. I wonder whatever happened to your Jewish client with the dreadlocks. Did he cut them off? Did he find someone who was not Jewish? Did he wait to find a Jewish woman who accepted the locks and who he was? You might not know what happened with him but I’m curious.

    I have crushes before that had a high emotional content, but my most lustful situations were with people I actually dated.  I got attached to the unrequited crush folks, but I didn’t physically lust after them.

    “Look at me I’m at the top of Mt. Everest!” LOL.  I have never lusted for someone to show them off.  This is interesting.

    Ah. 16:22.  Here we go. “They were not shy about the sexuality or initiating with me.” Yes. That is the hottest thing ever!  More important than the other things on your list.  I asked an ex-boyfriend once, you know me who dated these shy beta types, why he kissed me so soon after meeting me in real life. I remember him as being confident and taking that initiating.  Such a turn-on.  He said that I had been smiling and looked happy and he just went instinct.  Heck, that’s still kinda hot. 😉  There is nothing more satisfying than a shy, quiet guy taking the initiative and showing that he wants you.  I mean any man you really want taking initiative becomes doubly attractive, but with someone who isn’t like that regularly, it makes you feel even more special.

    I see why I was attracted to this type.  I say, was, because like any lust what’s initially attractive doesn’t always sustain over time.  It’s still hot, but the people I dated lacked initiative in other very important areas.  I realize I can’t change them no matter how attracted they are to me or high the chemistry is.  I can only change me and choose men who are a bit more confident and social.  I met a man the other night at yoga who I sensed was my former type.  I didn’t focus on it.  The reticence wasn’t shy or cute as it once would have been.  I may see him again but if he doesn’t show that initiative early on I’m not going to be feeling it.

    This is big for me, making a change in who I find attractive. It’s not about looks.  For me, what happens is yes, the looks thing is yes or no on first glance.  But quick on the heels of that assessment, almost at the same time, is personality.  Before, a guy’s shyness made me feel so safe and good that that magnified however he looked exponentially.  If he was a 6, (I hate the 1-10 number scale but it’s handy to use here for explanation) so to speak, the safety he made me feel initially turned him to a 9 for me.  Almost immediately. I didn’t even realize that was happening. And I’d feel attraction and he’d be a 9 to me from there on in. Now, I pause a bit more before that happens.  Yeah, he’s a 6. Maybe even a 7.  But so what. I do have control over the second step.  Not the first, no.  That’s just biology.  But the second step my brain made was what actually got me into bed.  🙂 Not just biology.  I now wait and assess first before making that next step.

    It’s so complicated and nuanced, guys.  Like what Evan says about a woman’s confidence.  That’s what my exes say about me!  They love that.  But they don’t realize it was their beta-ness that made me feel like a queen.  I could do no wrong in their eyes.  That’s an amazing feeling.  But I don’t need that kind of beta-ness anymore. I wonder if I don’t exude that confidence with more confident men.  I don’t because I feel they’re arrogant and difficult.  (They may not be, but it’s what I think. So that’s me judging, I get it.)  Your best advice inthis podcast was kind of a throwaway line: “You may be on a pedestal, but bring him up there with you.” This is hard, because so much of initial attraction is him initiating on his own.  But I get it.  Men need some signals.  And I am much better at this than I once was.

    I’m looking for that same feeling I used to get but with someone not beta and not alpha.  I think I’m looking for the Jewish guy with dreadlocks! LOL.  It’s just an example, but I’m looking for that errant missing lid to my unique Rubbermaid box.

    My lid is going to find me. Sooner than I might think. 😉  This one was a fun one, Evan.  Thanks for sharing it.

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