How to Be a Magical Man Magnet – an interview with Lauren Frances

Lauren Frances has a thing. Charisma. Sex appeal. Fierce intelligence. Whatever it is, you’re going to want to get a glimpse of it. Lauren understands men and knows how to build attraction, both online and off. In this Love U Podcast, you’ll discover how to be a sexy siren that men can’t resist. I’m telling you: Lauren’s magical.

Click here to get Lauren’s free dating tip sheet and vision of love meditation.

Want to be a guest on the Love U Podcast? Click here to ask a question. 

Watch: YouTube

Enjoy the podcast? Please leave a short review on iTunes by clicking

Join our conversation (129 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    Lauren Frances

    Evan! It was so fun being interviewed by you, and love u, too! You’re brilliant, and thanks for having me on. Can’t wait to hear what your peeps think, and here’s to magnetizing love, everyone!

  2. 2
    Karl R

    My thoughts:

    Evan, fix your audio pickup. Whenever you were speaking, the audio was almost physically painful to listen to.

     

    Lauren,

    I completely agree that dating should be approached like marketing. (This is true for men and women.) One of the hardest parts (for most of us) is getting our foot in the door. By presenting our best selves at the outset, we attract more potential partners.

    The field trips you do also sound like they’re inspired. While out, I’ve encountered numerous women whose body language was telling men to stay away. In many cases, I believe the women were completely unaware of this. Decent, socially aware men will respect that message and keep their distance. It sounds like you’re teaching women how to change the message they’re sending.

     

    Makeovers:

    I think the benefit of the makeovers is primarily indirect (particularly in real-life encounters). I believe the makeovers cause the women to be happier and feel more confident. And it’s the happiness and the self-confidence that primarily attracts the men, not the makeup or the clothes.

    Of course, you already may be aware of that.

     

    Where I disagreed:

    Regardless of how a woman changes her makeup, wardrobe, behavior, or attitude, she can’t avoid attracting the wrong men. By changing those things, women will attract more men or fewer men. A majority will be the wrong men.  If there are too few men, it’s entirely possible that none of them will be the right men.

    However, if a woman attracts more men, then she’ll have some good ones in the mix. In addition, if she is attracting fewer men (especially if its due to behavior or attitude), the better men are more likely to be driven away first.

    So I expect your clients will attract more men, attract more good men, and have a better ratio of good men to “wrong” men. But they still will have the wrong men in the mix.

  3. 3
    Emily, the original

    Lauren is exactly right. There are other women out there looking for community. You may have to filter through several meet up groups, but they are out there.

    And sometimes you don’t even have to smile to get men to approach. A lot seem to do so without any “come hither’ cues.

  4. 4
    Yet Another Guy

    I was following the discussion until Lauren associated a man’s physique with jewelry.  That is when I shook my head and tuned out.  After coming out of a momentary WTF funk, I went searching for one Lauren’s articles that mentioned man jewelry.

    The Secret Flirt Tip that Makes Men MELT (How to Become a Magical Man Magnet)

    WARNING: Never compliment a man on his physique! This will only serve to embarrass or confuse him about what your intentions are. Unless he’s just a fling…  Then just go right ahead and spell it out for him!

    On what planet is it okay to mention pocket protectors, but not okay to compliment a man on his physique?  That is a gross assumption on Lauren’s part.   How a man interprets a compliment about his physique is context and age sensitive.  A 26-year-old man may believe that a woman is looking for sex.  That line of thought may extend to a 36-year-old man or even 46-year-old man, but I am a 56-year-old STEM professional who holds undergraduate and graduate degrees in computer science.  I work very hard at being fit, so that I do not look like the stereotypical computer scientist.  I would chuckle and then walk away from a woman I did not know who made a reference to pocket protectors, as I would consider it to be a sign that she lacks social grace.  I would strike up a conversation with a woman who noticed my physique because it means that she appreciates a man who takes care of himself.  I would not be embarrassed or confused, nor would I consider it to be sign that she is only interested in a fling.  Not all men are boys within a man’s body.  At this age, being fit is a lifestyle, not an extracurricular activity.

    Another assumption with which I do not agree is the topic of having to give men “come hither” cues.  I can assure Lauren that not one of my single male friends has ever been afraid to “cold call” a woman when we are out.  Sure, it is nice to receive a cue, but a cue is not necessary if a man desires a woman.  The only men who will not make a move without receiving a cue are men who lack confidence, and women generally do not desire men who lack confidence.  We can discuss why giving men “come hither” cues can be a bad thing, but that is a discussion for another blog entry.

    1. 4.1
      Emily, the original

      I can assure Lauren that not one of my single male friends has ever been afraid to “cold call” a woman when we are out.  Sure, it is nice to receive a cue, but a cue is not necessary if a man desires a woman. 

      If you’re not getting a signal, it may be best to not pick up the phone.

    2. 4.2
      Emily, the original

      Unless you’re at a singles’ event. If not, and a woman is out and about and hoping to be approached, she’s probably pretty aware of the men who around her. She’s assessing their interest and sending out buy signals if appropriate.

      1. 4.2.1
        JustSaying/Androgynous/xxxxxx

        Emily, I think that is what YAG meant. When he and his mates are at a social setting or any kind of setting where men and women go to meet and interact. Men know better than to attempt a pick up when people are going about their business shopping, commuting and what not. I  think they are sensible enough not to risk having cops or security called upon to chastise them.  So Yes, even with come hither signs in a setting not conducive to cold approaches, many men do not bite even if they are attracted. Interestingly enough, women think it is so cute and romantic when relatioinships are actually born from such cold approaches. Go figurre……….I am a woman and I can’t understannd it myself.

        1. Emily, the original

          JustSaying/Androgynous/xxxxxx,

          Men know better than to attempt a pick up when people are going about their business shopping, commuting and what not. I  think they are sensible enough not to risk having cops or security called upon to chastise them.

          Umm … well, I am not a supermodel but I get approached when I am out and about running errands, grocery shopping, etc. In the way that women can’t truly understand how much rejection men face, men can’t understand the volume of unsolicited approaches a woman faces. If a man is pleasant when he approaches, I am not rude, but a majority of these approaches are not warm in that I am not signaling.

          Interestingly enough, women think it is so cute and romantic when relationships are actually born from such cold approaches. Go figure…

          Depends on who’s doing the approach.   🙂

        2. Stacy

          @Just Sayin

          Well, I am surprised you are a woman and made this comment. Men try to pick me up ALL THE TIME when I am grocery shopping, when I’m on the phone actually talking to someone else (I get tapped on the shoulder or waved to or a leud comments by the less savory), exercising, hurrying for the train (so clearly while I am in a hurry), etc.

          I must admit that black men primarily do this. They seem more bold where I live than their white counterparts.  White men tend to be more subtle (again, in my experience).

    3. 4.3
      Stacy

      @YAG

      I agree. I get hit on all.the.time. And to be honest, I intentionally (it takes effort) make myself look super serious and (almost) upset to not be randomly hit on and STILL it does not deter men. In fact, quite often they ask me if everything is okay and why can’t I smile more because I have such a ‘pretty face’. In other words, I don’t think a come hither look is necessary. HOWEVER, if a woman is interested in something she sees, relaxing her face muscles and giving brief eye contact may be better (especially if the man in question usually  has lots of options – the more options he has, the more he is usually afraid of rejection in my experience).

      But I do agree that a woman should stay away from purely physical compliments on a man’s body at first. And if she does compliment him, she needs to stick to the face (you have a nice smile for instance). The reason is that  while YOU would appreciate such a compliment, it is difficult for a woman to pull off such a compliment without it sounding sexually tinged. So it is wise to just not do it. However, if on a date with the guy, it can certainly come up (and not with over emphasis – again, a woman needs to tread carefully when it’s early IF she wants a relationship).

       

      1. 4.3.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Stacy

        Guys with options generally do not care if a woman blows them off.  They usually have at least one sexy-on-standby that they can booty call at the last minute. A guy with options is also prepared to crash and burn because he usually only “cold calls” women who have higher SMVs.  Once again, men who get the most women get rejected by the most women.

    4. 4.4
      Karl R

      Yet Another Guy said:

      “I can assure Lauren that not one of my single male friends has ever been afraid to ‘cold call’ a woman when we are out.”

      While this statement is accurate, you’re missing the bigger point.

      I think I’ve sufficiently established my willingness to “cold call” a woman.

      Despite this, all else being equal, I will approach a woman who is clearly interested in me before approaching a woman who just seems generically “approachable”. And I will never waste my time approaching a woman who is giving signals that she is disinterested in being approached (either by me specifically, or by men in general).

      That last statement holds true, even though I know that there are women who unintentionally give off those signals. (And some of Lauren’s clients will be among them.)

       

      Compliments are a great way to attract a guy’s attention.

      Example:

      Shortly before I started dating my wife, a woman approached me and complimented me on one aspect of my dancing. Prior to her getting my attention, I would swear that I had never seen this woman before (in that bar or anywhere else), even though she obviously had seen me dancing in multiple venues.

      Despite not noticing her before, she was cute, bright, and charming (and a pretty good dancer for a beginner). If things had not worked out during those first few months with my wife, I likely would have asked out that woman next.

      In one step, she went from “he doesn’t know I exist” to being on the list of women I was considering asking out.

       

      Yet Another Guy said:

      “How a man interprets a compliment about his physique is context and age sensitive.”

      In addition, the interpretation will be based on what a woman says and how a woman says it.

      Similarly, a guy can compliment a woman’s physique and have it work. But it will backfire with most women, and most guys will screw it up with the rest of the women. Given that Lauren’s article was extremely short, it was probably better to address the general rule, rather than trying to cram in the nuances of the exceptions.

       

      Emily, the original said (regarding “cold calling”):

      “If you’re not getting a signal, it may be best to not pick up the phone.”

      Bad advice. The men who are willing to “cold call” will succeed more than the men who won’t.

      I get the point you’re trying to make. I’ve seen the older guys at the bar who, night after night, hit on every new woman who shows up. Sequentially — starting with the hottest one and working their way through all the new arrivals. Those men are a joke, and they would likely benefit if they were more discriminating.

      But those men still do far better than their peers who require a signal before moving forward.

      1. 4.4.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Karl R

        As I have mentioned in several comments, the guys who get the most women get rejected by the most women.  Rejection is the price of admission.  A guy with an aversion to being rejected is not going to do well with women.

      2. 4.4.2
        Emily, the original

        Karl R,

         

        Bad advice. The men who are willing to “cold call” will succeed more than the men who won’t. But those men still do far better than their peers who require a signal before moving forward.

        Sorry, I just don’t agree with you. I’m making a sweeping statement here, but I would venture a guess that most of the men women are “cold approached” by are men they are not interested in. Certainly not all, but most. Have other women besides the one you mentioned in your dance class approached you? How many of them were you interested in? Maybe quite a few. I don’t know how it is for men, but most women know that they have to be approachable to get a man to approach, and they are subtly trying to will the men they like over to them! Or maybe not so subtly!  🙂

        1. Karl R

          Emily, the original said:

          “I’m making a sweeping statement here, but I would venture a guess that most of the men women are ‘cold approached’ by are men they are not interested in.”

          Your statement is accurate … and completely missing the point.

          When an advertiser buys ad time on TV, over 95% of the viewers won’t buy. When a people apply for a good job, over 95% of the time they won’t get it. When those old guys hit on every woman in the bar, they got turned down over 95% of the time.

          Advertisers still buy ads on TV. People apply on for jobs. And guys hit on women who, more likely than not, are not interested in them. In each case, low odds are vastly better than no odds (which is what happens if people don’t try).

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “but most women know that they have to be approachable to get a man to approach, and they are subtly trying to will the men they like over to them!”

          A lot of them are too subtle. I can’t tell the difference between a woman who’s subtly trying to will me over, as compared to one who’s subtly trying to will me away. Based on my limited sample, the split was about 20/80. (And a 1 in 5 cold-call rate is staggeringly good … certainly not representative of my actual attractiveness.)

           

          If I do not ask a woman out (regardless of her level of interest), the results are exactly the same as if I ask her out and she’s disinterested. Therefore, there’s no benefit to not asking. Unless she’s blatantly obvious about her disinterest, there is always a chance that she’s interested.

          I completely understand your blind spot. You’re utterly incapable of seeing this from a man’s perspective. From your perspective, you’d rather not get hit on by all the unwanted men. But I certainly wouldn’t let that drive my decision making.

        2. Callie

          “From your perspective, you’d rather not get hit on by all the unwanted men. But I certainly wouldn’t let that drive my decision making.”

          Just so I’m clear: you’re saying that a woman’s discomfort is not at all a factor in if you choose to hit on her, that making a woman feel uncomfortable isn’t as important as you getting to hit on her? Is that correct?

        3. Karl R

          Callie asked:

          “Just so I’m clear: you’re saying…”

          I fixed your mis-paraphrase:

          “… that a woman’s possible discomfort is not at all a factor in if you choose to hit on her, that making a woman possibly feel uncomfortable isn’t as important to a man’s dating success as taking the initiative and DOING something, rather than using the woman’s possible discomfort (or my own discomfort at being turned down) paralyze me into inaction?”

           

          Seriously, if you feel that uncomfortable when a man politely asks you out, and you politely decline … GROW UP.

           

          Callie,

          If you’ve been reading this blog for any length of time, then I’m sure you’re sick of hearing men (usually bitter men) come on and lecture women on how the women should change their dating habits … in order to make dating easier for men like them.

          I have never done that. Neither has Evan.

          When we offer advice to women, we tell them what changes make women more successful at dating. Similarly, when we offer advice to men, we tell them what changes make men more successful at dating.

           

          If I tell women that they should dump men who treat them like jerks, it benefits those women. It certainly doesn’t benefit the jerks who are dating them. (And I think you can appreciate that.)

          If I tell men that they should man up and ask more women out … well … actually that one does indirectly benefit women too. If you’re to myopic to see how, tough shit. The advice was directed towards the men.

        4. Shaukat

          you’re saying that a woman’s discomfort is not at all a factor in if you choose to hit on her, that making a woman feel uncomfortable isn’t as important as you getting to hit on her?

          I personally don’t think it should be a factor. Obviously, a guy should approach in a polite fashion, he should not persist after she tells him she’s not interested, and he should not be overly aggressive or threatening. However, your insinuation that some women might find being approached inherently discomforting, and that men should take this into account when making their decisions, is unreasonable. Often, a man would have no way of even knowing that his approach will generate discomfort until after he approaches anyway.

        5. Emily, the original

          Karl R,

          I completely understand your blind spot. You’re utterly incapable of seeing this from a man’s perspective. From your perspective, you’d rather not get hit on by all the unwanted men. But I certainly wouldn’t let that drive my decision making.

          And you’re incapable of seeing this from a woman’s perspective. I am about to leave a job. I have decided that I am going to make up that I have a partner at my next job. It will stop the unwanted approaches, the candy on Valentine’s Day, the gifts, the unsolicited life advice in terms of how I should complete my next move and/or spend my money so that it doesn’t run out.  If you are one the of the few single women, men think you are available to them and/or they think you need help. I am just there to work and hoping the atmosphere at my next job is a little more professional.

        6. Callie

          I’m truly not sure how to respond to someone who tells me to grow up. I quoted what you said and asked for some clarification, in turn you insulted me and made sweeping generalisations about my character. And further dismissed any concerns women might have about being approached as if women do not have a long history with very negative approaches and might have reasons to be wary.

          I wanted to ask as a follow up if you look for signs if a woman does not wish to be approached, if you take into consideration the fact that most women have to deal with men not just approaching in a polite fashion, but in aggressive scary ways as well and often when they have no desire to be approached – like when a woman has ear buds in or is reading a book (I have had girl friends who have had their ear buds ripped out of their ears by men who wanted to talk to them because to these men hitting on these women was more important than her personal space and right to be left alone). The notion that the response to women who are nervous about a man asking her out is “grow up” is both unsettling and quite aggressive. You take none of a woman’s personal experience and history into account, why this might make her nervous despite the best of intentions and you assume that all men approach in a polite respectful manner in the first place. When you say that you think it’s more important for a man to approach than to be concerned with, yes, even a “possible” discomfort, I see someone who I definitely do not want approaching me.

          Just for the record had you said something like, “I do understand that some women might be nervous by an approach, but I do all I can to make sure the women I choose to approach are most likely to be okay with an approach even if they reject me, and I am very careful and polite when I do do it” I would have taken no issue. But you outright dismissed what Emily was explaining as nonsense and none of your concern. It came across at least to me like you were saying that it is worth it to you to make someone feel scared or uncomfortable because to you anyone who does is just a child who needs to grow up, you bear no responsibility at all (ironic really since accepting no responsibility is actually considered quite a childish trait).

          The notion that Shaukat says that often a man will have no idea if a woman wants to be approached to me is laughable because many women give off tons of clues: no eye contact, doing something else like as I said above reading or listening to music, walking quickly down the street, etc.

          Obviously if you are in a situation where it is clear the purpose is to meet someone, a club, the kind of bar where people go to hook up etc, then of course there’s a huge difference. But you are making no allowances for such differences in your descriptions so it’s hard for me to know just HOW respectful you actually are. Especially when you are so dismissive of the concerns of women here on this site.

          (btw, here we go again with assuming just because I say something it must mean I feel that way. It truly does seem that so many posters here don’t understand the concept of empathy, that you don’t have to be a certain way to still understand and have empathy for someone. I have actually been very fortunate in my life to generally have not had too many negative experiences with men hitting on me so no, I actually don’t respond with fear or concern when hit on – but I do know of other women who have had really terrible experiences and are very protective of themselves for that reason, and I am speaking up for them because I think it’s important.)

        7. Karl R

          Emily,

          When you phrase it that way, I understand what you want.

          But instead of asking how you could dissuade men from approaching you, you chose to give lousy advice to men, on the off chance that might affect the number of men who approach you.

          It won’t. Compared to the population, the number of men who read this blog is tiny.

          (As for how to dissuade coworkers from making unsolicited advances, a fake partner sounds like a workable plan. There are vendors who sell fake engagement rings and fake wedding rings too.)

           

          Callie said:

          “I quoted what you said and asked for some clarification”

          You misquoted what I said, and twisted it into something quite nasty, actually.

          That’s insulting, so don’t pretend your actions were innocent.

           

          Instead of twisting my words, you could have asked a simple, neutral question, like… “Karl, how do you recommend men approach women who might not be interested in them?”

          There happens to be an entire thread (click here) where a woman asked how to approach men and ask them out (be the pursuer, instead of the pursued). Since this woman was clueless and inexperienced about pursuing, her initial attempts bordered on creepy and stalker-ish.

          She wasn’t trying to be malicious or scary. She just had no idea how to do it more effectively.

          I gave her the same instructions I would give the most inexperienced and clueless man, and I phrased it in ways that would connect with the experiences she’d likely had as a woman.

           

          Callie said:

          “The notion that Shaukat says that often a man will have no idea if a woman wants to be approached to me is laughable because many women give off tons of clues”

          When the roles were reversed, that woman missed the exact same clues. She describes it herself.

          And there is no universal set of clues that applies to all women. Before we started dating, I saw my wife interact with men whom I know she turned down. I could see why those men thought she was interested.

        8. Shaukat

          The notion that Shaukat says that often a man will have no idea if a woman wants to be approached to me is laughable because many women give off tons of clues: no eye contact, doing something else like as I said above reading or listening to music, walking quickly down the street, etc.

          Callie, your entire comment reads like you might be overdosing on gender studies courses and screeds on ‘toxic masculinity’ and ‘male entitlement.’ That stuff can be intellectually interesting, but trying to live your life by that blue print is a recipe for paralysis.

          First, no one here ever suggested that aggressive and predatory forms of approach aren’t atrocious. Your initial comment didn’t frame the issue in this manner either-clearly, no one reasonable would argue that ripping a woman’s headphones out of her ears to talk to her, or stalking her for hours after she says she’s not interested, is appropriate behavior. I take your point that because women live in a context where such behavior has taken place, that they might be cautious about being approached in general, but each individual still has to be judged based on his approach and demeanour.

          Most of your other points are false. A lot of female posters here are saying that men should look for the subtle clues before they approach-what’s known as ‘warm approach.’ While sometimes this works, on most occasions it’s not feasible. The signs women sometimes give are so subtle they’re impossible to pick up. Women out in groups of two or more at bars usually wont give any such clues at all, but that doesn’t mean they’re not receptive to being approached (I’m speaking from experience). A woman reading a book at a bookstore probably isn’t even aware of her surroundings enough to give such clues, but again, that doesn’t mean she’s not potentially receptive to being approached politely. It also amusing that you state that in certain settings approaching is appropriate, such as bars where people go to hook up (these bars have signs I take it?), as opposed to…just bars?

          Finally, for someone who speaks so much about empathy, you don’t appear to show any for men who actually have to approach. I’ve personally seen certain guys psych themselves out to the point of having a mini-panic attack while trying to muster up the courage to cold approach someone they’re interested in. I’ve also known guys who have given up on approaching altogether, because after doing so three or four times, they received such negative responses that they’re egos were completely deflated. The discomfort involved in weathering repeated rejections to find the candidates who are interested apparently doesn’t form part of your empathetic worldview.

          Oh, and it’s again interesting that at the end of your comment you threw out the standard Callie ‘just-cause-I say-it-doesn’t-mean-I-believe-it’ trope to shield yourself from criticism. Here’s a thought, if you’re playing devil’s advocate, make that clear.

        9. KK

          “And you’re incapable of seeing this from a woman’s perspective. I am about to leave a job. I have decided that I am going to make up that I have a partner at my next job. It will stop the unwanted approaches, the candy on Valentine’s Day, the gifts, the unsolicited life advice in terms of how I should complete my next move and/or spend my money so that it doesn’t run out.  If you are one the of the few single women, men think you are available to them and/or they think you need help. I am just there to work and hoping the atmosphere at my next job is a little more professional”.

          Amen & hallelujah. : )

          Wise choice, Emily!

        10. Emily, the original

          Karl R:

          Seriously, if you feel that uncomfortable when a man politely asks you out, and you politely decline …

          Most women hate to turn a man down. It is an extremely uncomfortable position to be put in and a man who’s asked her out — because of his interest, not hers — has put her in that position. Callie’s description of a woman who does not want to be approached is dead on the money. If a man does approach, it should be fairly obvious if she’s welcoming the approach. Coolly civil, physically moving away … means she’s just there to get groceries. Obviously, I’m talking about cold approaches to strangers. If you are in a group with someone, for example, and develop a rapport over time, it can be difficult to tell if someone is open to being asked out or just flirtatious. Still, I would argue that women will make their interest known.

          Callie said: The notion that Shaukat says that often a man will have no idea if a woman wants to be approached to me is laughable because many women give off tons of clues: no eye contact, doing something else like as I said above reading or listening to music, walking quickly down the street, etc.

          Yes. Simply because she ‘s out and about does not mean she wants to be approached.

          Callie said; Obviously if you are in a situation where it is clear the purpose is to meet someone, a club, the kind of bar where people go to hook up etc, then of course there’s a huge difference.

          Yes

        11. Emily, the original

          Hi KK

          Wise choice, Emily! Have your experienced things like this at work, too? It’s like the Tracy Chapman song “Crossroads” …. “I look to the left, I look to the right. Hands that grab me on every side.”    🙂   I exaggerate a bit, but you get where I’m going with this.

        12. Emily, the original

          Shaukat.

          Finally, for someone who speaks so much about empathy, you don’t appear to show any for men who actually have to approach. I’ve personally seen certain guys psych themselves out to the point of having a mini-panic attack while trying to muster up the courage to cold approach someone they’re interested in.

          If a man is approaching a complete stranger in the example you used (she’s reading a book at a bookstore), I’m not really sure she owes him all that much. She doesn’t know him. She’s out and about in the world, doing her thing. If she’s engrossed in the book, I’m not sure why a man would try to approach her and why he would consider that a fail if he did and she was not receptive. This isn’t a speed dating event. She’s not a party where her friends have tried to set her up and she should at least be polite. When I was still in college, I worked at a restaurant in the food court of a mall. I noticed this very cute guy getting his food at another restaurant several feet away. He noticed me watching him. He pointed at me. I smiled (ok, I giggled). He walked over to me (I was staring at him the whole time) and asked for my number. It was pretty obvious I was welcoming his approach.

        13. Karl R

          Emily, the original said:

          “Most women hate to turn a man down. It is an extremely uncomfortable position to be put in and a man who’s asked her out — because of his interest, not hers — has put her in that position.”

          Have you ever been in the role of pursuer? I’ve occasionally been in the role where the woman was pursuing me. Turning someone down isn’t exactly comfortable, but I think many men would voluntarily trade your discomfort for theirs.

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “If a man does approach, it should be fairly obvious if she’s welcoming the approach. Coolly civil, physically moving away … means she’s just there to get groceries.”

          Emily,

          If you were correct, nobody would do cold calls, simply due to lack of results.

          Nine years ago, on a Saturday morning, I walked into a diner. There was a woman sitting at the counter. I decided that I was going to take the seat next to her (rather than sitting between two middle-aged men) and strike up a conversation.

          By the time we finished breakfast, and our conversation, I had gotten her business card and a reason to call her again … and as we were leaving the diner, she suggested that we go out for coffee sometime. (We had two dates.)

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “Simply because she’s out and about does not mean she wants to be approached.”

          Nor does it mean that she’s opposed to being approached.

          Most women (and men) are distracted as they go about their business (or leisure). They’re not deliberately trying to send out nonverbal cues to the rest of the world.

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “She’s out and about in the world, doing her thing. If she’s engrossed in the book, I’m not sure why a man would try to approach her and why he would consider that a fail if he did and she was not receptive.”

           

          For the woman I mentioned above, I could either approach her in the diner, or never approach her. I wasn’t going to randomly encounter her later in a social situation.

           

          Had the woman at the diner counter been disinterested, I would not have considered that a failure. Regardless of whether of her response, I had succeeded in approaching a woman in a situation where (a few years earlier) I would have been afraid to try.

          That’s part of what separates the confident daters from the rest. I stopped considering a negative response to be a failure. Either way, I successfully found out whether she was one of the women who was interested in me, or ones who wasn’t.

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “She’s not a party where her friends have tried to set her up and she should at least be polite.”

          I guess I’m old-fashioned. If a woman approaches me, even if I find her repulsive, I will be polite. I’ll politely decline, but I will be polite.

          But a lack of politeness wouldn’t surprise me. No shortage of rude people in the world.

          But a rude response would make me glad the woman declined, rather than accepted. It’s really awkward to be on a first date and suddenly discover your date is rude.

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “I look to the left, I look to the right. Hands that grab me on every side.”

          What country (or company) are you in where that behavior is tolerated?

          If my coworker was having do endure that, I’d recommend that she go to the boss (and I’d offer to be a witness on her behalf). If the boss was the culprit, I’d recommend going to the boss’ boss.

          If it was the President or CEO of the company doing it, I’d recommend hiring a lawyer and writing a Cease & Desist letter. Let the board of directors reign him in.

        14. KK

          Hi Emily,

          Yes, I have a fake boyfriend. I think we’re getting engaged soon. Lol : )

        15. Emily, the original

          KK,

          Yes, I have a fake boyfriend. I think we’re getting engaged soon. Lol : )

          Is his name Idris Elba? That’s my new boyfriend.  🙂

        16. Emily, the original

          Karl R

          Turning someone down isn’t exactly comfortable, but I think many men would voluntarily trade your discomfort for theirs.

          You’re discounting the female experience.  Women are conditioned their whole lives not to be bitchy or rude or standoffish. Women are raised to care about the feelings of others. It’s why it’s so difficult for women to be direct and just say “No, thanks,” to a man and instead give a long, rambling answer (and almost feel we owe him an explanation) that doesn’t make it clear we’re not interested. I have spent hours on the phone with friends about how to turn down men. “Does he understand I said no?”, “Am I being clear?”, “Am I being mean?”   yada, yada, yada.

          Most women (and men) are distracted as they go about their business (or leisure). They’re not deliberately trying to send out nonverbal cues to the rest of the world.

          Trust me. Despite being distracted, if George Clooney showed up, those same women would notice.

          Had the woman at the diner counter been disinterested, I would not have considered that a failureI agree with you. You shouldn’t. She could be married. She could be gay. She could hate talking to strangers. You could be a blonde and she likes dark-haired guys. You don’t know anything about her. Her disinterest is not a failure.

          I guess I’m old-fashioned. If a woman approaches me, even if I find her repulsive, I will be polite. I’ll politely decline, but I will be polite.Well, politeness is nice, but a random stranger you approach (or who approaches you), particularly without the presence of approach cues like eye contact and smiles, doesn’t owe you anything. I read a letter to an advice columnist from a man who’s in the military who is tired of random strangers thanking him for his service, hugging him, wanting to take pictures, etc. It’s to the point where he doesn’t want to leave work before changing out of his uniform to, for example, go to the grocery store. He’s just going about his day. Yes, people mean well, but … they are being invasive.

          What country (or company) are you in where that behavior is tolerated?I was kidding, but, yes, it is very unprofessional where I work. However, if I’m being honest, it’s only sexual harassment if you don’t like the person.  🙂

           

        17. Shaukat

          Hi Emily,

          I never suggested, or even implied, that a woman being cold approached ‘owes’ a man anything. If I approach a woman at the bookstore, she obviously has the right to tell me to f*** off if she wants to. I was simply pointing out that there’s a certain level of discomfort involved in being the approacher as well.

          Btw, your George Clooney example is kinda ludicrous. A man shouldn’t go through life assuming that if he isn’t receiving celebrity style treatment from women, it must mean an approach would be unwelcome.

        18. Callie

          Karl R – I am only responding to your accusation that I misquoted because there is no way we are ever seeing eye to eye on this. I literally copied and pasted what you wrote. This is what you wrote: “From your perspective, you’d rather not get hit on by all the unwanted men. But I certainly wouldn’t let that drive my decision making.” And that is what I quoted in my first reply to you.

          Now according to you I misinterpreted you, and while I don’t think I did, I can accept you feel that way. What I did not do was misquote you. This is verbatim what you wrote. And then I double checked your meaning. When I read those literal words you wrote it came across to me that what you were saying that a woman’s comfort or discomfort had no effect on your decision making because that’s basically what you said: “I certainly wouldn’t let that drive my decision making” – what’s the “that”? Well if we go further up the “That” is “you’d rather not get hit on by all the unwanted men”. So how is that not saying that you don’t really care about her preferences in what she wants and that your preferences take precedence?

          Also considering all the replies you have made since, honestly, it seems pretty clear to me you don’t really care if women are uncomfortable with approaches. You’re doing it regardless. You keep defending that point. So how on earth am I turning your points nasty if you keep saying this over and over again?

          I actually have the answer to this question: you truly do not believe me. So you have to assume that I am actively trying to make you out to look bad instead of maybe assuming at the very least I truly believe what I’m saying (even if you don’t).

          You want to somehow convince me that cold approaches AREN’T a problem for many women in order to prove your point that your behaviour isn’t problematic. The issue is the premise. You and I fundamentally disagree on that. I believe men doing cold approaches need to be VERY careful and very wary and need to have a ton of empathy for what many women deal with in their day to day lives. You believe that most women love cold approaches, that anyone who doesn’t is a child, and that it’s okay if once in a while (as you think it is only once in a while) you cause discomfort because that’s her being immature not you doing anything wrong. You truly don’t believe that women might not want to be cold approached in all circumstances. Since I KNOW many do not unless they are in very specific situations, I cannot think you anything other than selfish refusing to at all consider that perspective and maybe also consider what they want over what you want.

          Now we will never agree on this point. And that’s what it is. But to say I twisted your words and misquoted you? Uh no. Not one bit.

        19. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          I was simply pointing out that there’s a certain level of discomfort involved in being the approacher as well.

          But you are putting yourself through the discomfort because you are approaching a complete stranger and you don’t even know if she’s on the playing field or even wants to be. At least with something like a dating site, you know she is available and looking to meet men. You take more of a chance if you approach a stranger, but that’s a chance that you chose.

          Btw, your George Clooney example is kinda ludicrous. A man shouldn’t go through life assuming that if he isn’t receiving celebrity style treatment from women, it must mean an approach would be unwelcome.

          George Clooney was a euphemism for a man women might find very appealing. Women are far  more aware of their environment than you think, even if they appear to be engrossed in a book at the bookstore. If a man a woman finds appealing shows up, she’ll notice.

        20. Karl R

          Emily, the original said:

          “However, if I’m being honest, it’s only sexual harassment if you don’t like the person.”

          Thank you for your candor.

           

          You have pointed out the conundrum that men face.

          1. Most women want men to take the initiative.

          2. Men are programmed to overestimate their chances with women. (Optimism beats pessimism for Darwinian reproduction.)

          3. It is extremely rare for a man to be 100% sure that he will succeed.

          4. Neuroscience demonstrates that women are better at communication, understanding how other people are feeling, and acting appropriately in social situations. (click here)

          5. Women expect men to read their social cues, and fail  to realize that they are being far too subtle for most men.

          6. A woman either wants me to make an advance, or she doesn’t. Typically, my only way of knowing which is to make an advance.

          7. Just like your sexual harassment comment, the advance is only unwanted if the woman doesn’t want the guy to approach.

           

          Regarding George Clooney:

          I’m sure you’re right.

          And George Clooney doesn’t need to pursue women. For decades he demonstrated that the hottest women were willing to share him.

          That doesn’t work so well for the 99% of us that don’t look like leading men.

          I suspect that you don’t look like a leading lady either. Therefore, both of us need to rely on dating strategies that differ from those Hollywood’s hottest use.

           

          Emily, the original said:

          “it’s so difficult for women to be direct and just say ‘No, thanks,’ to a man”

          It’s the most effective way to turn down a man. It’s perfectly clear. It’s easily understood.

          Unsurprisingly, women have repeatedly asked how we prefer to be turned down. Each time, I have told them that a polite “No thanks,” is the preferred method.

          Is he owed politeness? That’s more of a philosophical question. To what extent do people generally deserve politeness? From a practical standpoint, politeness costs nothing, it’s drama-free, it’s non-confrontation, it’s less likely to produce an angry response.

           

          By the way … those rambling non-answers confuse men. If you didn’t say “No,” then the man is wondering what answer you gave.

           

          Callie asked:

          “how is that not saying that you don’t really care about her preferences in what she wants and that your preferences take precedence?”

          Let’s go back to Emily’s statement:

          “if I’m being honest, it’s only sexual harassment if you don’ like the person.”

          You’re convinced we should know (in advance) that we know what a woman’s preference is. We don’t.

           

          Last night I was talking to a friend of mine. She recounted a conversation (with another lady) from when she was single.

          My friend: “Men don’t ask me out.”

          Other lady: “There are a dozen men in this room who would love to ask you out.”

          My friend: “Why don’t they?”

          Other lady: “They’re not sure whether you like them, since you’re nice to everybody.”

          Not long after, she met a man who wasn’t afraid to approach and ask her out. He’s now her husband.

          I’ve previously heard his version of the story too, like the conversation from the second time they ever ran into each:

          Her: “Did you just get here?”

          Him: “No. I got here a half hour ago.”

          She’d been distracted. For a half hour. He didn’t let that dissuade him.

           

          Some women complain that men lack the courage to approach them. Some women (sometimes the same women) complain that men have the nerve to approach them.

          Men don’t have telepathy. Whenever I approached a woman, I was finding out whether she wanted me to hit on her or not.

          Whether men approach women or not, women will get upset over the action (or inaction).

           

          Callie,

          Obviously, men can’t cater to everyone’s preferences. (see Aesop’s fable.)

          So, as a man who was dating, which woman’s preference should I prioritize? I could prioritize the feelings of women like you … women who never want to date me. Or I could prioritize the feelings of women like my wife … women who date and marry me.

           

          You seem to think I should have prioritized the feelings of women like you, rather than the feelings of women like my wife.

          If so … yeah … I’ll stand by my earlier statement. You need to grow up.

        21. Emily, the original

          Karl R

          1. Most women want men to take the initiative.

          As a general rule, yes, but I have approached men before. I try to read the cues and see if I’m getting anything back. If I do speak to him and he is polite and friendly but not flirty and there is no sexual energy, I leave it alone. I don’t keep throwing low-level come ons out there in the hopes he failed to receive the first 30 of them. (And there are men who do this.) What you are failing to understand is that women chose the men they like. They are usually very aware of who is around them if they are in the frame mind to be approached (and not in the middle of, for example, taking the bar exam). That women at the diner? She’d probably already noticed you and was open to being approached.

          5. Women expect men to read their social cues, and fail  to realize that they are being far too subtle for most men.

          Perhaps, but I don’t think staring at someone, smiling or even going over and saying hello is all that subtle.

          Regarding George Clooney: That doesn’t work so well for the 99% of us that don’t look like leading men.Sorry. My bad. I wasn’t clear. I meant George Clooney as a metaphor for hot men. I didn’t mean the actual George Clooney.

          I suspect that you don’t look like a leading lady either. Therefore, both of us need to rely on dating strategies that differ from those Hollywood’s hottest use.

          I don’t have to look like a leading lady. I’m a woman and I’m breathing. Some guy will try to talk to me!

          “it’s so difficult for women to be direct and just say ‘No, thanks,’ to a man” It’s the most effective way to turn down a man. It’s perfectly clear. It’s easily understood.

          I get that and I agree with you. Women need to be more direct. I’m just saying that it’s difficult for a lot of them. I’m 46 and I couldn’t do it all that well until I was in my 40s.

           it’s drama-free, it’s non-confrontation, it’s less likely to produce an angry response. A man has no right to be angry. He approached a complete stranger who owes him nothing. The world isn’t a singles bar.

        22. Shaukat

          Emily, I know you mean well, but I feel you’re batting zero in this thread. You say that the woman Karl hit on at the diner was already probably receptive to being approached, yet he already stated that she didn’t give him any overt signals. So how was he supposed to know that unless he, well, actually approached her?

          Some of you ladies want men to take on the traditional masculine role of calling, planning, paying, etc, but apparently when it comes time for a guy to pick his balls up off the floor and make an approach so that he can initiate dates, he’s apparently supposed to wait for those subtle, elusive signals that only exist in rom coms, where a woman looks up from her book and cappuccino as she flashes a dazzling smile at her potential suitor. Sorry, but that doesn’t happen. Even in bars/clubs where those type of warm signals are more common, it would not benefit a guy to wait for them necessarily. I’m rarely directly rejected because I can pick up on body language fairly quickly and thus can extricate myself from the interaction once I determine she’s not interested.

          Here’s an interesting fact: I’m a natural introvert and I used to be painfully shy, living in my head, afraid to initiate even when given such signals. Part of the problem was that I listened to the type of nonsense espoused by posters like Callie, who seem to believe that women are such sensitive creatures that even a polite approach could potentially trigger them into a state of permanent PTSD.

          Another interesting stat: one weekend on a night out I was rejected 6 times in a row; the next weekend I left with the first girl I approached. Never would have happened if I listened to this drivel about how women don’t want to be cold approached.

        23. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Maybe it’s me. I don’t like to be picked. I like to do the picking. I’m not always right, but I’m fairly good at reading the signs. Men aren’t all that subtle. We can tell when you are trying to talk to us. You try to catch our eye. You try to move physically closer. If we are in a group, you insert yourself into the conversation. There’s an internalized pressure we can feel from you. Several years ago I went to a house party and I noticed an attractive man as he came in through the front door. He sat across from me at a table. I wasn’t totally sure he was trying to talk to me, but when someone got up and he sat closer to me, and then someone else got up and he sat next to me, I knew. I stayed there knowing he wanted to talk to me. If I hadn’t wanted him to approach, I would have gotten up from the table and moved.

          And that was a snarky comment about Callie. She in no way talks about PTSD. But there are some women — OMG, Pshaw — who if even single aren’t interested in dating and want to be left along. I’m not saying Callie is one of them, but a woman should be able to move throughout the world how she wants to.

        24. Callie

          Karl – Yes yes, I need to grow up. Got it. I’ve clearly really rubbed you the wrong way with all this that you so consistently need to make sure you put me down, not just answer questions and have a conversation. I am sorry for that, because I really don’t post here with the intention to hurt others. But congratulations, your constant belittling of me has more than changed my once rather positive impression of you as a voice of reason here. There’s no point in me continuing to have a conversation with you.

        25. Callie

          Emily – thanks , and yes exactly. I think you are being far more articulate in this conversation than I am, and I appreciate the way in which you’ve clarified certain points 🙂 .

          Also no worries about the snark, Shaukat has a particular bug about me, has even attempting to manipulate me in the past by outright lying (and then admitting it later). I’m really okay with whatever he has to say about me, it’s always so extreme and so nasty that I just kind of shake my head and sigh. If it makes him feel better, then cool. It’s neither here nor there for me.

        26. Emily, the original

          Hi Callie,

          I guess broaching the topic that certain women never want to be approached and are intentionally giving off indecipherable signals  irks them. Or maybe I’m missing the point. Some men seem to think they create the opportunity when they approach but with some women the opportunity never existed. Or the opportunity never existed for certain men. Isn’t that how it is for everybody?

        27. Callie

          Emily – I think so. I mean why else is my asking “Do you make sure to do all you can do make sure an approach would be welcome” a bad (and unanswered) question? I think there are many guys out there who feel like dating/sex/relationships is THE top priority for everyone in the world. That a man has a RIGHT to a woman. And so any woman suggesting that maybe there ought to be a time and a place for hitting on women is shutting down his inalienable right. That a woman saying, “Sometimes we don’t like it, and sometimes it actually scares us” is so offensive to them that instead of taking a step back and going “Really? Okay what can I do to make cold approaches better for the women I’m approaching” they instead tell a woman to grow up and tell her she has mental issues. As if being aggressive in a conversation somehow helps disprove the point about men making women feel nervous. (never fully understood that. The level of nasty accusations thrown at me in this conversation for daring to suggest that maybe their attentions aren’t always welcome does nothing to disprove that male attention is unsafe)

          At any rate, I’ve never actually once said cold approaches are bad. I merely responded to Karl’s response to you where he said he didn’t take the discomfort of women into consideration when approaching because he was going to prioritize himself over women. That attitude worried me because I know enough women who have had really nasty aggressive men “approach” them who clearly didn’t give a fuck about what the woman felt especially when they most clearly and obviously were not interested. (and that’s another thing, how convenient that evidently women are always giving off mixed signals, that men just can’t ever seem to be able to read them and so clearly it’s the fault of women for not being clear enough, not men for, you know, being able to read some pretty basic “do not disturb” messaging)

          Anyway, yeah. I think there’s something ingrained for men about how they deserve a woman that gets them very angry when a woman tells them that maybe not in all situations should you be approaching women. And while I absolutely fault men for that attitude, I also can acknowledge that that’s a systemic issue they are fighting themselves, that they grew up with, that other boys/men mocked them for if they weren’t able to get a girl etc. Society is kind of a fucked up thing for all genders.

           

        28. Shaukat

          @Callie,

          Read my first response to you on this thread. I was completely respectful and simply voiced my disagreement with your position and then explained why. You proceeded to call my point ‘laughable,’ so I’m not sure what you were expecting. I have no personal vendetta with you whatsoever. Stop playing the victim.

          Also, regarding this nugget:

          That a man has a RIGHT to a woman.

          No one here has suggested, or even insinuated, anything like this sentiment. I do realize that this is the knee jerk reaction among certain PC groups steeped in toxic identity politics, however: any discussion of a man approaching a woman with romantic or sexual intentions is immediately reduced to a case of ‘male entitlement.’ Never mind the fact that everyone here has already acknowledged that a man approaching a woman in a public space should do so respectfully and empathetically, and should immediately leave if rejected. You’re the only one who seems to equate cold approaching with grabbing a woman’s ass on a crowded subway.

        29. Emily, the original

          Callie,

          The thread definitely hit a nerve, that’s for sure. There now seems to be the counter idea floating around that if a man approaches politely and then back off immediately if she’s not interested, a cold approach is ok .The subtext seems to be: If I’m polite, I should be able to approach anybody. The fact of the matter is that some women don’t want to be cold approached by anyone. Ever. And they don’t have mental issues and they aren’t bitches and they don’t need to grow up. They just don’t like it, period. It’s just how they choose to move about in the world.

           

        30. Shaukat

          The fact of the matter is that some women don’t want to be cold approached by anyone. Ever.

          Yeah, they’re called nuns.

        31. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Yeah, they’re called nuns.

          Whatever. I don’t know why the men on this thread are so annoyed by the idea that some women don’t want to be approached. Has that idea challenged your belief that your had free agency to approach anyone? The fact of the matter is: You never had it to begin with. None of us does.

    5. 4.5
      Malika

      It depends on which country you live in. Where i live, ‘come hither’ cues are necessary, as men don’t usually cold call women. A couple of months ago, a guy walked up to me and started a pleasant conversation. I hardly knew what to do, i thought that was so daring and cool of him.

      The kind of man i feel most at ease with and want to date, is thoughtful and chill. These attributes don’t go together with putting yourself out there, so a come hither often has to be implemented. After he approaches, i can give him all the space he needs in order to pursue.

      1. 4.5.1
        Marika

        Agreed, Malika

        Most countries don’t have the dating culture that North America does. America is known for its individualistic self-confidence. In some countries, approaching a strange woman would actually be considered rude. I did get approached in my 20s by guys, often drunk or tipsy & in large groups. We sometimes made out, but I didn’t marry them!

        In many cultures it’s very important to give signs you’re available and interested. Particularly in our 30s and 40s when guys really don’t want to potentially get into an argument with a jealous boyfriend just returning from the bar or who may be gun-shy after divorces. I see no downside to showing signs an approach would be welcome.

        1. Nissa

          I don’t know about that. When I went to France without my then-boyfriend, I was approached several times by French men of all ages. And when I smilingly told them I had a boyfriend already, they all had the same response: “Is he here?” Apparently in France they have a serious “no presence, no problem” motto.

           

    6. 4.6
      ScottH

      YAG- I agree with you about the physique comment.  A couple months ago at a meetup I was talking to a newly separated woman and we were talking about dating at this age and the dating pool and she made a positive comment about me being in good shape as if it distinguished me from the competition and I really appreciated her comment.  I don’t think she was hitting on me or being overly flattering.  I work very hard to be in shape and it’s not easy doing so at my advance age (53) and not a lot of guys pay much attention to their shape.  I think being an AARP member and having a healthy and solid physique is admirable and notable and such observations from the women-folk are appreciated.

      1. 4.6.1
        Sum Guy

        Agree with you ScottH and YAG on this, and maybe it is very much an age thing.  I’m 50 and it is not effortless to stay slim and muscular; like it was near effortless when in your 20s.  It’s incredibly flattering to receive such a compliment, my view is men are actually much more vain than women when it comes to being in shape, …and it’s not going to turn me into some creep looking only for a one-night stand or mean you’re going to be able to have your way with me.  😉

        1. Yet Another Guy

          *have a mesomorph

  5. 5
    JB

    Where it really got confusing is when both of them tried to have a discussion about dating websites vs dating apps. Every site has an app!!! That’s what has screwed everything up. The proliferation of new profiles on Match that have 1 sentence and 3 photos that I can tell were done on a phone in about 3 minutes. How do I email that without discussing her photos “Hey, I like your sentence, I’m outgoing and love to laugh too”? I’m old school like Evan. I do nothing on an app except send a quick message if a woman hasn’t given me her phone number and we’re going to meet or rarely but occasionally search when I’m stuck somewhere and bored. The Tinder/Bumble/Coffee Meets Bagel crowd must have time to burn going to meet someone after 3 texts back and forth.

    1. 5.1
      Malika

      I’m on OKC, which is also a website and an app. Most profiles are reasonably fleshed out, and i send an e-mail which by its sheer length and lack of emojis looks like an e-mail, and that sets the tone of how we further communicate. Men who want to chat with one sentences therefore get filtered out, which helps to make it more meaningful before we meet. I’d rather send a few e-mails throughout a week than three brief texts before a meetup.

      One guy i dated last year actually complimented me on this! He said it felt like our getting to know each other and subsequent dates had depth, which had been lacking from other dates.

    2. 5.2
      Marika

      JB

      I hear what you’re saying, but I think they’re distinguishing between sites that started as websites and then developed an app version (eg eharmony, OKC) vs ones that were designed as apps (eg Tinder). You’ll have a LOT more info to go by using the former than the latter.

      That being said, I love Bumble. I like it that woman do the first approach. You never have to get abuse from guys you aren’t interested in.

      I disagree with the strategy of waiting for the extension, as another poster suggested, though. I think that’s game playing. If it’s designed for women to do the first approach – do that. If the guys aren’t interested, it won’t kill us to face rejection the same way men do everyday.

  6. 6
    Gemma

    Great discussion! I’ve had success on Bumble by doing this one tip.  I haven’t done dating apps or sites other than Bumble because I was really skeptical of them and a little bit turned off. But on Bumble, there is an extended time feature. So I let the 24 hr timer expire. Then I only reply to guys who have extended the time. It weeds out men who are just “shopping”. I’ve had great dates with men who extended because this already gauges their interest level before the initial text.

  7. 7
    Sum Guy

    This podcast really got to me, in that it seems to parrot a lot of advice that is good only for getting a materialist guy at best.  

    As I understand it.  I’m just going off this podcast.  I am not familiar with Lauren’s larger work or philosophy.  

    Some is good, but can guarantee you if a woman followed what I think is the advice here it would turn me off.  I know I’m certainly not what all women would want, but also believe that I’m squarely in a subset of quality men women say they want.

    Going to split up the posts…

    1.  I agree, you end up dressing the social situation you find yourself in (which usually isn’t dating) Also going through marriage, kids, divorce, we loose touch with expressing who we are inside, especially the side of us we’d show to attract someone.

    2.  get the idea of brand, it is shallow, it is simply selling the image of what “buyers” want.   Instead dress to show who you are, your value (the steak).  Sure you can sell the sizzle, but there will be buyers remorse because they wanted a steak unless you change who you are. 

    3.  Which leads me to say never change the good of who you are.  Change how you present you, don’t change you. You need to learn to show the best true you, not put on an image.  I assume we are talking about meaningful, long lasting relationships here, not just getting a man or husband.

     

  8. 8
    Sum Guy

    Continued….

    4.  She has some good ideas on opening conversation, but it really is all a way of saying I think your cute/I’d like to you.  But it is BS to actually think men attach that degree of meaning to clothes and things, unless you are materialistic.  Men of substance, in my view, care about what they make or build and that can certainly be their body.  

    Now tattoos, she couldn’t be more wrong.  Tattoos have a story (good, bad, and ugly 🙂 ), it is a guaranteed way to get a conversation going if they are even a bit interested.  Tattoos are not jewelry (bad analogy), which is often given to you by someone else.  Tattoos involve pain and are permanent.  In fact, in my experience talking with someone about their tattoo is an easy and best conversation starter (not that I have any).

    5.  The phone call is BS in my opinion.   No woman I’ve ever met on-line ever wanted phone call (e.g. e-harmony, match) and actually think of it as a red flag.  In fact many of them do not want to give out their number till they meet you in person because a creep with your phone number can give you all sorts of grief.  That’s also why I completely understand if a woman doesn’t put the actual town she lives in on-line.

    Also a lot of people can be awkward over the phone with basically a stranger.  This is not a professional call but social and you have had no chance to learn cues from their voice, which you learn in person when you couple them with body cues.

    Instead, engage in at least several substantive messages over a few days/week before suggesting the meet.  Of course only meet in a safe, public, easy to leave space.  I understand women like you to suggest an initial meet at least within a week of messaging or they wonder what is up.  I like it too, in person is always the best way to see if there is potential.

    6.  This one is a pet peeve of mine because it elevates image over substance.  Her evaluation of Evan as a safe guy, based on his clothes and haircut, is shallow beyond belief.  This kind of book by its cover thinking is exactly what players and worst exploit.   

    1. 8.1
      Karl R

      Sum Guy,

      While your observations and statements are accurate, I believe you’re getting lost in the minutia, rather than seeing the bigger picture.

      1, 2 & 6. Attire and branding are shallow, but they work. In part, they work because people try to brand themselves … not necessarily as they are, but at least as they’d like to be. I’m attracted to intelligent women. If a woman’s brand screams “cute nerd”, that’s going to get a favorable reaction from me. If her brand screams “80s rock star”, I’m going to pass.

      I’m sure that there is at least one woman, somewhere, who is a genius … and who also likes to dress like Cyndi Lauper. I’ll probably never meet her. I’ll take that risk.

      Similarly, most safe guys choose not to dress like ex-convicts. There are exceptions (in both directions). But in general, the people who brand themselves as safe are safer than the people who brand themselves as dangerous.

       

      3. I don’t think Lauren is advocating that people change who they are. I think she’s advocating that they change how they present themselves to the world.

      There’s an acquaintance of mine whose wardrobe “brand” describes her as straight-laced and friendly, but somewhat dull. (I think that’s her professional demeanor, and it makes sense for her job.) I know her from the dance scene, where she’s skilled, charming, and not afraid to show off on the dance floor. It would be accurate for her to brand herself with that side of her personality. And if she’s trying to make a good first impression, it’s probably beneficial for her to at least consider it.

       

      4. I think her conversation starters are intended to be icebreakers, nothing more. I don’t think anyone is supposed to attach much meaning to them. I think you’re trying to read more into it, and that’s not the intent. She’s trying to avoid loaded statements.

      You make an excellent point about tattoos. They frequently have a story behind them. However, many of those stories are deep, painful, and intensely personal. (An ex-coworker had tattoos that documented her struggles with drug addiction. A military veteran had a tattoo documenting the loss of her platoon.) So asking a total stranger about their tattoo may be … awkward.

       

      5. The phone call may be a generational thing. My generation is accustomed to them.

      1. 8.1.1
        Sum Guy

        Hi Karl,

        I think your comments on branding kind of prove the point I’m trying to make.   Branding certainly works in marketing a product … many people do judge books by their cover…I’d rather judge by the actual text.   Like I said, I well know I am not the norm in this regard for an American.

    2. 8.2
      Marika

      I agree in part with you, Sum Guy about the superficiality. I’m glad to hear it from a man’s perspective.

      In my country, I’m often already too dressed up for dates (compared to the guy) just wearing a nice outfit. If I did a full on image makeover, I would likely scare off anyone other than those wanting a trophy wife (or players). Looking nice will get you a lot of dates, but won’t get you a great relationship. The women I know in the best marriages are average looking, but happy, calm, generous etc. Those are the qualities to ‘make over’, Imo.

      However I disagree regarding the phone call. In my hundreds of online dates, the really bad ones were when we didn’t talk on the phone first, or when we did and it didn’t go well but I ignored my gut instinct and went out anyway, or didn’t happen because the phone call revealed issues.

      I don’t think anyone can steal your identity with a phone number and your first name. You can block phone stalkers. If a guy won’t give out a mobile (cell) number before a date, that’s a red flag for me.

      1. 8.2.1
        sandra

        Google voice and burner numbers to the rescue.

      2. 8.2.2
        Stacy

        @Marika

        Interesting you should say that because when I am super dressed up with full on makeup, men do not approach (although they look). When I am a bit more down to earth looking/not a lot of makeup (my everyday look), they approach in droves.

        1. Marika

          It’s a very different culture, Stacy.

        2. henriette

          @ Marisa – Agreed 100%.   When I read here that women are exhausted by men cold approaching them every time they leave home, that men frequently rip out women’s ear plugs to speak to them, about all the Valentines Day candy landing on their work desk each year, I am stunned.  And even within the USA, the culture varies enormously.  I spent years of my adult life in each of 3 US towns and in only one was I “cold approached” with frequency (and I enjoyed it).   During my years in a Chicago suburb, I can’t recall being “cold approached” even once.

          I imagine if I lived somewhere that men yanked out my earphones on a regular basis, I too might be posting on this thread about how annoying it is and asking for men to please stop making cold approaches (although I don’t think the issue there is the cold approaching, rather the rudeness exhibited by some men.)  Instead, I now live in a canadian city where *crickets* and my opinions and posts are partly informed by that.

      3. 8.2.3
        Sum Guy

        Hi Marika,

        I do give out my cell if dating and asked and often do before a first date to coordinate via text but never expect it from the woman.  My view on phone calls is not only mine but the women I’ve dated, maybe an age thing.

        I don’t think it’s identity theft women fear but harassment.  With just a first name and phone number you can for free figure out where a person lives, has lived, and thus last name.  That’s just free stuff.

        1. Marika

          I didn’t realise with a cell number and first name you could figure out all that in America. It’s different here. Every man I’ve ever dated or even spoken to before a date (some which didn’t pan out after the call) has my mobile (cell) number! The worst I’ve had is text/phone harassment, but I just blocked their number and problem solved. I guess it’s different if you can delve so much into their lives just with a name and number.

    3. 8.3
      Yet Another Guy

      @Sum Guy

      5.  The phone call is BS in my opinion.   No woman I’ve ever met on-line ever wanted phone call (e.g. e-harmony, match) and actually think of it as a red flag.  In fact many of them do not want to give out their number till they meet you in person because a creep with your phone number can give you all sorts of grief.  That’s also why I completely understand if a woman doesn’t put the actual town she lives in on-line.

      I never meet a woman without first speaking with her on the telephone.  It is just not worth my time.  Women who are unwilling to speak with me on the telephone are “nexted.”  I find that a telephone conversation is a very good way to sort the wheat from the chaff (plus, if I do not like a woman’s voice, she is not getting another date).  I developed my date filtering method before I discovered this blog; therefore, my version of the 2/2/2 rule is different than Evan’s.  My rule is that I do not agree to meet any woman with whom I cannot hold an effortless conversation that is at least an hour in duration.  Being able to reach that milestone without either party wanting to hang up is almost a guarantee that the date will go smoothly.  A lot of women are shocked when I say that it is not going to work after a fifteen minute conversation, but I have met enough women to know what does and what does not work.   I costs me nothing for that hour telephone conversation other than an hour of my time, and I learn as much as if I spent an hour or more face-to-face with an associated actual monetary cost.  My first dates do in fact feel like second dates because I usually have more than one telephone conversation with my date before me meet.  The women I meet say the same thing because the interaction tends to alleviate first date jitters.

      By the way, a woman does not have to expose her telephone number in order to speak with you on the telephone.  All you need to do is give her your number and instruct her to dial *67 before dialing it.  That way she realizes that you respect her privacy. I do it all of the time.

      1. 8.3.1
        Marika

        If you truly respect privacy, YAG, I would suggest not extensively data mining women before dates. Few people consider knowing a phone number and first name an invasion of privacy. Many more people would consider the data mining you’ve previously described a significant invasion of privacy.

        If you’re doing the *67 thing as a show that you respect privacy, while then going on to datamine, please be upfront about that in the phone call, so women have the chance to opt out.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          American women tend to not want to give out their telephone numbers because they do not wish to be bothered by guys in whom they are not interested.   I have no desire to have a woman’s telephone number if she does not wish to be pursued by me, but a telephone conversation is not optional with me.   Most people share a cell number.  Cell numbers are not listed in the United States.  I generally do not offer my telephone number to women who do not pass my background check.  Women who do pass that check deserve the benefit of the doubt.

          As far collecting background information before pursuing a date, well, a woman recently hit on me on a dating site.  My defensive radar went hot because this woman was at least an HB8 and educated.  Educated fifty-year-old women who look like her are rare.  They do not have contact men in the United States, so I knew something was up.  Luckily, this woman had a unique first name, which made identifying her trivial when combined with her age.  Through case data, I was able to discover that she has  divorced four times in the last 20 years, all of which she filed.  She has children by two of her husbands and an illegitimate child by a man between husbands (a paternity case).  American women who look like her tend to have difficulty remaining committed to one man, and she was no exception.  The fact that she went online shortly after divorcing her fourth husband to whom she was married for only three years made it clear to me that she was looking for victim number five, and that victim was not going to be me.

        2. KK

          YAG,

          “American women who look like her tend to have difficulty remaining committed to one man, and she was no exception”.

          You’re killing me smalls!

          You can’t be serious with this statement. Do you really think if a woman is very attractive that somehow affects her character? That she isn’t able to remain faithful because I suppose more men are hitting on her and… well, silly women are emotional and impulsive???

          Geez!!!! I suppose you think if a woman is homely, that automatically means she is of good character, is faithful and would be a great mother.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          heat and/or file for divorce because they have exponentially more options than less attractive women.  HB8+ women are used to men competing for their attention.  Not only has it been my personal experience, it is the subject of many published papers (google “attractive women are more likely to divorce”).  Very attractive men and women cheat at much higher rates than less attractive men and women. They do so because they have more opportunity to cheat. Basically, any attribute that gives a man or woman an advantage in the dating pool increases the likelihood that he/she will cheat.  For example, men who are taller than average (5’10” or taller in the United States) are more likely to cheat than shorter men because their height is an advantage in the dating market.  That advantage is very easy for one to verify by reading female profiles on Match.  A lot of guys complain about the 6’0″ threshold on dating sites, but the height discrimination threshold for American women is actually 5’10” (one inch taller than the average American man).  That height is usually acceptable to women up to around 5’8” where 5’11” becomes the minimum height.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          That is exactly what I am implying.  Very attractive women are more likely to cheat and/or file for divorce because they have exponentially more options than less attractive women.  HB8+ women are used to men competing for their attention.  Not only has it been my personal experience, it is the subject of many published papers (google “attractive women are more likely to divorce”).  Very attractive men and women cheat at much higher rates than less attractive men and women. They do so because they have more opportunity to cheat. Basically, any attribute that gives a man or woman an advantage in the dating pool increases the likelihood that he/she will cheat.  For example, men who are taller than average (5’10” or taller in the United States) are more likely to cheat than shorter men because their height is an advantage in the dating market.  That advantage is very easy for one to verify by reading female profiles on Match.  A lot of guys complain about the 6’0″ threshold on dating sites, but the height discrimination threshold for American women is actually 5’10” (one inch taller than the average American man).  That height is acceptable to women up to around 5’8” where 5’11” becomes the minimum height.

           

      2. 8.3.2
        Marika

        I get the sense, YAG that you approach dating the same way as you approach your work. I’m sure you’re a gun at work, but people don’t act in predictable, logical ways, aren’t statistics and don’t follow a handbook you can download.

        I work with people with brain disorders. Every one (even those with the same disorder) are individuals. They present differently, have slightly different symptomatology, respond differently to diagnosis and treatment.

        Just because someone statistically may do something, doesn’t mean they will. Just because they’ve done something before or to someone else doesn’t mean they’ll do it in the future or to you.

        If you approached women like humans, gave then the benefit of the doubt and judged them based on actions instead of your Google searches you may be less negative and happier.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          No, not all people align with statistics.  There are outliers.  However, behavioral statistics would not exist if the tendency for people to behave in a certain way did not exist.    With human beings, past performance is the greatest predictor of future performance.   If that were not true, dating coaches like EMK would not exist.

          Some men and women never take time to understand sabotaging behaviors.  I fight with my own sabotaging behaviors.  I routinely go for women who have a lower SMV because I do not want to have to deal with the crap that comes with dating a woman with a higher SMV.  There is a sense of entitlement with women who have higher SMVs.  Once again, not all women with higher SMVs have a sense of entitlement, but the majority do in fact exhibit a sense of entitlement.  There is this constant need to test if they are settling.   However, every time I pair up with a woman who has a lower SMV, I end up losing interest in her sexually.

        2. KK

          YAG,

          Good women don’t cheat.

          Good men don’t cheat.

          Attractive women are used to attention and realize very early on, it doesn’t mean anything. So just because an attractive, married woman may continue to receive attention, it doesn’t mean she would throw away a relationship by cheating. If she does, she’s character deficient. It has nothing to do with her appearance or options.

          From your comments here, you tend to think women come in only one of two flavors and you’re absolutely wrong.

          You think you have to choose between unattractive and safe or attractive and risky. Not so.

      3. 8.3.3
        Sum Guy

        Hi YAG

        never knew about the *67.  Good info, can say skipping the phone call has never been an issue for, also I’d never wash anyone out on a bad phone call as I can readily see the personality types I like not doing well on a phone call.

        I think my whole thing on the phone call is it shouldn’t be such a “rule” and you could well wash out great people who are not good on the phone with a stranger people

  9. 9
    Sum Guy

    The stuff below came up in the beginning of the cast, but it really is a rant, although reasoned, so I saved the worst for last. 

    “You don’t want men who don’t call plan pay”, horrible advice  or maybe the best as I don’t want any woman who thinks that way.  
    It is such an entitlement mentality, an I want my cake and eat it to view of gender roles asking for the benefits of new and old gender roles and none of the responsibility.   

    Guarantee you the guys that are “OK” with such expectations are (a) insecure, (b) want the “traditional” defer to men as better woman, (c) controlling (they’ll pay but you owe them), and/or (d) have so much money that $200 dinner is less than an hours work (so it’s no sacrifice, I know it is not one for me).  None of that is masculine energy, it’s loser or manipulator energy, or in the last example not even on the economic radar so no energy is involved.   It’s usually all of the above, a horrible combination unless you get a better lawyer in the divorce.  

    I really don’t want or expect a deferential do what your man says woman(basically 1950’s view that women are second class thinkers).  Yuck.  That’s the old “bargain” on gender roles.  Nor do I want the entitled mentality, and it smacks of a woman making herself a commodity.  
    Let me put it another way, “that kind of woman” (who expects you to pay) is easy for a man of means to get.  You can wrap it up and call confidence and “chivalry” but really it’s turning connection into a transaction.  The chivalry is really just spending money on her and not be crude about it (read low calorie sugar daddy).  It is actually easier to get a 25 year old woman with this mentality than a 40 year old, the amount of money that impresses them is so much lower and men that think this way find them so much more valuable and less troublesome.  

    I’ll call plan pay, not because it is my male role, but because it is decent and refined social behavior.  I call because I’m interested, I plan because I called, I’ll pay especially if I picked the spot and also if it’s clear I make much more than her even if I didn’t plan.  It’s magnanimous.  Or as it’s been said…I am a river to my people 😉

    But if I’m told it’s expected because of my gender, or hear it’s what “real men” do, there won’t be a second date.  

    I rant here because if I’m ever back on the dating scene I’d never want a woman who could be my match to turn me off by thinking that “expecting I pay” is some rule or a good filter to select quality men.  It’s not.  The best it’s going to select for is wealthy or insecure men (assuming you don’t want to fill a 1950s gender role).

    Lastly, real life example: I can say from my dating experience (we’re all educated people in our late 40s early 50s, incomes vary from 40k to 150k+ the highest on the website) the norm seems to be, women always offer to split and we often alternate (I pay first date, she the next).  It sends a huge signal to a man that you don’t view him as a paycheck, but as a person and that you really like him.  So why would any man of quality be interested in someone not of such character?

    1. 9.1
      KK

      ““You don’t want men who don’t call plan pay”, horrible advice  or maybe the best as I don’t want any woman who thinks that way.  

      It is such an entitlement mentality, an I want my cake and eat it to view of gender roles asking for the benefits of new and old gender roles and none of the responsibility.”

      Sum Guy,

      This topic has been discussed here ad nauseam, but I’d like to offer you one woman’s perspective.

      A relationship oriented woman’s number one concern (initially) is weeding out non-relationship oriented men. ONE way to gauge a man’s level of interest is his willingness to call, plan, pay. It has absolutely nothing to do with entitlement.

      “Guarantee you the guys that are “OK” with such expectations are (a) insecure, (b) want the “traditional” defer to men as better woman, (c) controlling (they’ll pay but you owe them), and/or (d) have so much money that $200 dinner is less than an hours work (so it’s no sacrifice, I know it is not one for me)”

      Sorry, you can’t guarantee those are the only 4 reasons. I’m somewhat surprised by (d). It’s not supposed to be a sacrifice. It’s supposed to be a kind gesture. A gesture that says hey, I think you’re worth taking out for a $200 dinner. I value you. How would you feel if you found out that a woman felt the same way you do? If she were to tell you that the $200 you spent on dinner wasn’t a sacrifice, therefore it means nothing?

      1. 9.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @KK

         
        I am just playing devil’s advocate here, but I am currently experiencing an internal struggle with this area of dating.  I have never had a woman spend $200 on an evening other than my ex, and that was the cost of tickets to a show in Las Vegas after we were married.  What I am attempting to reconcile is a woman’s desire to be liberated while maintaining all of the courtesies that were extended when women were not liberated.  It is a have one’s cake and eat it too situation. Why should a man have to put forth all of the effort and assume all of the costs encountered in courting when he dates a woman who earns a comparable or better income?  Why should a man have to take the financial hit?  What differentiates this arrangement from prostitution?  There are few liberated woman would accept the downside of these old-fashioned courtesies.  Women will argue that it is because the gesture demonstrates that a man is interested.  Yet, a man is supposed to believe that a woman is interested just because she accepts his offer?  Are you kidding me?  I know for a fact that women accept dates with men they do not desire because the man offered to take them somewhere exclusive.  I have had casual sex with quite a few women over the years that called me after they came home from an expensive date.  The poor guy usually shelled quite a bit of money only to receive a grandma peck at the end of the date. Thanks to one of the female commenters on this blog, I now know that there is a name for this female behavior; namely, alpha fux/beta bux.  If women want to know why men prefer to “hang out” instead of formally court, here is your answer.
         

        1. Marika

          I think that’s fair, YAG. This issue has come up often enough that I think it’s an American thing. It’s certainly not a female thing. I’m a highly feminine woman, but I would feel very uncomfortable if a man paid $200 on a date with me while courting, or routinely paid for dates while I contributed nothing.

          I’m pretty sure you’re done with dating and certainly with relationships, which is your perogative, but if you do care & want to understand what’s behind this, for me I think it’s about wanting to feel special. There’s a line in that movie Hitch, something like no woman wakes up not wanting to be swept off her feet. There are a million ways to do that without spending huge sums of money (or any money at all). Women’s lib didn’t change that dynamic in dating. Rightly or wrongly.

          You’ve mentioned your daughters several times. How would you like a man to treat them on a date? Maybe think about what makes them smile and feel happy (obviously in a G-rated sense).

        2. Tom10

          @ Marika
          “This issue has come up often enough that I think it’s an American thing.”
           
          I agree with you here Marika; within the Western-world dating context it’s an American thing. But women from many non-Western countries can often be like that on dates too. My experience has been that many women from Europe, Australia etc. prefer to contribute to dates, so that they don’t “owe” the guy anything and can move on to the next guy without qualms.
           
          The other American thing you’ll notice here is the other on-going thread about guys randomly cold-calling women in public places; guys here just never ever do this so it’s not an issue. Indeed, we have the opposite problem; guys hardly ask women out at all! Lol.

        3. Stacy

          @YAG

          A woman that does not at least offer to pay by the 3rd date, is not that into you imo.  However, the onus is on a man to court a woman in the very beginning. This is the only way it works . This is the only way we feel attraction – when men give to us (in the beginning). However, where men go wrong is that they will take women out on expensive dates in the beginning and then complain. Stop doing expensive dates…in fact, you can even have quality free first dates (and very cheap but good quality second dates).

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy

          in fact, you can even have quality free first dates (and very cheap but good quality second dates).

          Low-cost and free dates are all I have entertained for the last six months, especially first dates with woman from online.  I can thank ScottH for making me see the light on that issue.  I spent an insane amount of money during the year that I was separated.  I was playing by the old rules.  I now play by new rules.   As you mentioned, the women who were really into me did not care what we did as long as they were the point of my focus, and I kept them laughing. 🙂

        5. Nissa

          I can’t speak for all women. But for myself, if I’m on a date with someone, it means I’m at least considering them, trying to find out more about them to know if we could be an item. If I know I’m not interested, I’m not going on a date with that guy. It’s an absolute waste of MY time, as well as his.

        6. Nissa

          Now that I think about it, I’ve never paid for a date where I was actually interested in the man. Every time I paid, it was because I was feeling “not into” the guy and wanted to compensate for that. However,  I often do something thoughtful for my date. I’ve brought over a bottle of wine & sandwiches for a park picnic, helped wash his car, brought quarters for a baseball practice outing, and brought a library book about his special interest on my date. See how none of that is about money, and how it is about showing interest?

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @Nissa

          See how none of that is about money, and how it is about showing interest?

          Of course it is not about money for you because you are not spending real money.  When you start shelling out $200.00+ for the privilege of seeing if a man is truly interested in you,  then we can talk.  I have never had a woman who was not interested in me pay the full tab, not once.  What we have now is a man has to plan and pay to demonstrate interest while he has to assume that a woman is interested just because she shows up.  That is a deal that needs to go the way of the dodo bird in the days of women’s liberation.  We are way past a whore and a maid days.  Men have to do housework and take care of children in addition to the traditional property maintenance chores.   Let’s look at the conditions under which the tradition of a man planning and paying was established.  A man ruled his home with an iron fist.  Women basically had no rights.  Children were the property of their father.  A woman was basically her husband’s whore and maid.  If a woman got divorced, she could end up being impoverished.  Shall I go on?  No liberated woman on the planet would trade what she has today for those conditions.  Yet, women still want the courtesies the were extended to women back when women were still basically the property of their husbands.  A man planning and paying is an anachronism.  Both people work, so both people should foot the bill and both people should plan dates.  If a man has to invest time and resources in a woman, then she should have to invest time and resources in a man.

           

        8. Yet Another Guy

          *courtesies that were extended

      2. 9.1.2
        Sum Guy

        Hi KK,

        my use of the word “guarantee” and overall tone is why I had to give a heads up this is a rant, as I never like to talk in absolutes

        on the $200, maybe a bit exaggerated for most first dates  but I don’t believe a first meet you date should be a financial sacrifice…and if it is (or perceived by the woman to be) I think my a to d points are pretty accurate

        I actually don’t expect a woman to appreciate me paying for a dinner more than a friend would, that is appreciate it as a nice gesture,  like holding open a door

        I throw out $200 as it likely is large to most, not unusual if you have drinks, appetizer, mains n bottle of good wine in a major US city

        I wouldn’t propose a place for initial dates where it would be a financial problem, I don’t really know this person and have kids who need my resources

         

  10. 10
    KK

    Karl said,

    “What country (or company) are you in where that behavior is tolerated?
    If my coworker was having do endure that, I’d recommend that she go to the boss (and I’d offer to be a witness on her behalf). If the boss was the culprit, I’d recommend going to the boss’ boss.
    If it was the President or CEO of the company doing it, I’d recommend hiring a lawyer and writing a Cease & Desist letter. Let the board of directors reign him in.”

    It must be nice to be so blissfully unaware of what many women put up with. Not your fault that you’re unaware. Just saying it must be really nice.

    I had to go out of town on business recently. 3 colleagues and our boss. One evening, after dinner together, my boss invited me for coffee in his hotel room. It was a suite with a living room. Although, I really didn’t want to, I agreed to because he’s my boss. He’s always been polite and respectful. No reason to believe he would make a move on me. Well… he did. I let him know it wasn’t happening and left to go to my own room. On the flight home, he said, “You need to know I’m happily married and plan on staying that way”. Ok. Psycho.

    Karl, do you really think I would risk my job and possibly get black balled in my industry just so I can protect my rights? I would lose. It’s a classic case of he said / she said without a shred of evidence.

    Women put up with all kinds of bullshit on a regular basis.

    1. 10.1
      Karl R

      KK said:

      “It must be nice to be so blissfully unaware of what many women put up with.”

      Unaware?

      Have you been paying attention to what’s been happening at Uber this year?

      My company has an extensive sexual harassment policy (as do most companies) because these things do happen.

       

      What I am unaware of:

      I’m unaware of any connection between me (and guys like me) approaching women in a diner, a bar, a bookstore … the wide variety of places where we make “cold calls” … with women we’ve never met before … and sexual harassment in the workplace.

      You had a bad experience with a lousy guy at your workplace, so you believe all decent guys should stop approaching women, strangers, in public places.

       

      KK asked:

      “Karl, do you really think I would risk my job and possibly get black balled in my industry just so I can protect my rights?”

      Apparently you wouldn’t. Now I know.

       

      KK said:

      “I would lose.”

      You might lose.

       

      It’s a tough choice to make,  but you have chosen not to stand up to a man who clearly is doing the wrong thing. Your silence protects him. It exposes other women (your female coworkers, past, present and future) to the same bad treatment. And clearly, every other woman who has been subjected to his sexual harassment has made the exact same choice as you. If any of them had spoken up, you might not have been subjected to his sexual harassment.

      Instead of attacking the man who acted inappropriately, you are attacking every man who acts appropriately (approaching strangers in public, rather than their coworkers in private).

      We don’t exist to be surrogate punching bags, just because you’re afraid to confront your boss.

      1. 10.1.1
        KK

        “Instead of attacking the man who acted inappropriately, you are attacking every man who acts appropriately (approaching strangers in public, rather than their coworkers in private).

        We don’t exist to be surrogate punching bags, just because you’re afraid to confront your boss”.

        Good grief, Karl. Where is all this coming from? I said nothing about men in general approaching women one way or the other. I specifically commented on your response to Emily and I even put it in quotes for you so you’d know specifically, without any confusion, what I was referring to.

        So, to reiterate, my comment was in response to this:

        ““What country (or company) are you in where that behavior is tolerated?

        If my coworker was having do endure that, I’d recommend that she go to the boss (and I’d offer to be a witness on her behalf). If the boss was the culprit, I’d recommend going to the boss’ boss.If it was the President or CEO of the company doing it, I’d recommend hiring a lawyer and writing a Cease & Desist letter. Let the board of directors reign him in.”

         

    2. 10.2
      Chance

      KK, I am very sorry that you had to experience something like that.

      1. 10.2.1
        KK

        Thank you, Chance. That’s very kind of you.

  11. 11
    Marika

    Hahaha, Tom 10, so true! I was reading that thread thinking I would love if some guy approached me on the street, told me I was beautiful and asked for my number!! I probably think that because it almost never happens…(unless they’re drunk and 25😀).

    You have to take the good with the bad, ladies. If you want to reap the benefits of a male dominant dating system (men planning and paying), you have to recognize that means men will in general be more assertive. If you want a more passive guy, move to Australia. But then you can’t expect men to pay for fancy dinners for weeks while courting you. It doesn’t work that way.

    Btw Tom, we’re not contributing so we don’t owe you anything, we’re doing it because it’s a nice & polite way to treat another human! Btw2, are you an Aussie?

    1. 11.1
      Tom10

      @ Marika #11.1
      “I was reading that thread thinking I would love if some guy approached me on the street”,
       
      Actually, that was my mistake: that thread is this thread. Lol. Too many simultaneous sub-plots to keep up with the actual topic under discussion which is, um, how to be a Magical Man Magnet. Too funny. 🙂
       
      “Btw Tom, we’re not contributing so we don’t owe you anything, we’re doing it because it’s a nice & polite way to treat another human!” 
       
      Ha – fair enough so: I just thought some women didn’t like having random guys spending lots on them because they might then wonder does the guy expect something sexual in return.
       
      “Btw2, are you an Aussie?”
       
      Nope, I’m a Paddy 😉 But our dating cultures have many similarities from what I’ve gleaned from your comments.

    2. 11.2
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Hahaha, Tom 10, so true! I was reading that thread thinking I would love if some guy approached me on the street, told me I was beautiful and asked for my number!! 

      No, you wouldn’t. Odds are he wouldn’t be someone you wanted to talk to. I don’t even really mind someone cold approaching me so long as the person is pleasant (not overtly sexual) and there’s an easy exit. What I don’t like is the stuff KK mentioned. Like her, I’ve had a boss who stepped over the line. I don’t like when I put up a very strong boundary and men ignore it or press for an opening (pun intended). Or they continually throw out these low-level sexual comments. I’ve had one guy at work tell me how to wear my hair. My response: “There’s no one here I’m trying to attract.” Did he get that included him? Who knows? Another is always offering me hugs. Both are married. Blech. Yuck. Trust me in that it’s never a guy you’d like to hug!   🙂

       

      1. 11.2.1
        Henriette

        I’ve found this ongoing discussion about “cold approaches” quite fascinating.  There might be some impressionable guys reading this thread (oh, Adrian…) who are now convinced that Women Do Not Welcome Cold Approaches.  I would like to go on record stating that only SOME Women Do Not Welcome Cold Approaches.

        I’m a woman (although, through the years, some here have suggested otherwise) and I like any and all polite approaches. I learned at a young age how to say no to a guy in a way that lets him walk away with his head held high (it always hurt me when my sweet brother would approach a woman ~ or girl, back when he was still a boy ~ and she would be sullen, rude, dismissive, unkind while rejecting him; is it so hard to decline a courteous approach, courteously?)

        I’m more comfortable thanking and dismissing undesirable suitors than using the “come hither” signals listed by some women up-thread (giggling, staring, approaching were among those mentioned). I’m not suggesting these techniques are wrong, but simply that many women are quite happy being more passive and receptive in this particular arena.

        No doubt the most effective women are those who both welcome cold approaches AND are adept at signaling their interest in ways that men are likely to comprehend.  Are the women who loathe being approached  going to change their opinion? Probably not. But I admit that it might help me if I re-thought my aversion to hair-tossing, tittering and deep-eye contact.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Henriette

          I’m more comfortable thanking and dismissing undesirable suitors than using the “come hither” signals listed by some women up-thread (giggling, staring, approaching were among those mentioned). I’m not suggesting these techniques are wrong, but simply that many women are quite happy being more passive and receptive in this particular arena.

          With the exception of approaching yourself, the “come hither” techniques you listed are passive. You are throwing out the signal and waiting for him to make the move.

        2. Henriette

          @Emily, I wrote “more passive.”   Giggling while staring at a man is less passive than not doing so.

        3. Emily, the original

          Henriette,

          I don’t know about you, but if a woman is not even willing to signal (let alone approach herself), she is at the mercy of who approaches her. I don’t like having to depend on other people choosing me.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          Henriette,

          I too am surprised at the negative reactions expressed by women about being approached by men.  I have never felt anything more than mild fleeting discomfort in a few situations.  My opinion only, but I think it’s unreasonable to expect every man to be able to read your mind or your body language cues in every situation at all times.  Even if a woman isn’t conversationally gifted it’s easy enough to say “Thanks, but no.”

          I’m an extrovert and will get into conversations with the grocery store cashier, the people I’m waiting next to for my lunch order, and people I meet traveling.  Life and people are interesting, and it’s just a conversation.  It doesn’t mean anything other than two people sharing time chatting.

        5. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          I’m an extrovert and will get into conversations with the grocery store cashier, the people I’m waiting next to for my lunch order, and people I meet traveling.  Life and people are interesting, and it’s just a conversation.  It doesn’t mean anything other than two people sharing time chatting.

          There’s a difference between making pleasantries with people in your day-to-day life and a cold approach by a man. I certainly don’t think every man who tries to talk to me is hitting on me, but there’s a completely different energy to the conversation and interaction when he is.

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          I actually don’t see any difference between every day pleasantries and a man’s cold approach.  As virtually every male commentator has stated, they approach and strike up a conversation to see if there is enough there there to ask about future meetings.  It’s about connecting with someone.

          Conversely, I have been in situations where I try to chat with someone where there is not romantic insterest or intent on my part and have been shut down.  Its simply a connection that doesn’t work.  It could be because they are shy or preoccupied, or it could be my conversational style or the topic doesn’t appeal to them.

          I feel those missed totally platonic connections where I was the initiator are very similar to situations where men approached me but I wasn’t interested or didn’t connect with them.  Whether it’s for a momentary chat, or something that could wind up being more, a missed connection is a missed connection.  And I never assume up front that a man who approaches is imminently going to hit on me.  It’s extreme to assume every guy who says hi to you is doing it to hit on you.

        7. Henriette

          @emily the original: you wrote, “it’s so difficult for women to be direct and just say ‘No, thanks,’ to a man.”  So, because a few women are not willing to be direct and learn how give a polite, ” no thank you,” no man ought to ever politely cold approach any woman.  Got it.  We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

          @Go With the Flow – I’m like you; I chat to strangers all the time.  In fact, according to several studies, engaging with strangers tends to make people happier http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/talking-to-strangers-can-boost-your-happiness-level-1.3196621  https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/talking-to-strangers-makes-you-happy/.  I have no romantic interest in 99% of the people I chat with, so I certainly don’t assume all or even most men who chat with me want anything beyond a few moments of conversational connection.

           

      2. 11.2.2
        Emily, the original

        GowiththeFlow,

        I actually don’t see any difference between every day pleasantries and a man’s cold approach.

        Sometimes there isn’t but sometimes there is a heavy flirtatious element to it which distinguishes it from other conversation.

        And I never assume up front that a man who approaches is imminently going to hit on me.  It’s extreme to assume every guy who says hi to you is doing it to hit on you.

        I wrote the exact same thing.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFLow

          There is often (if a man is interested) a lot of staring. You can’t tell when someone is attracted to you?

  12. 12
    Marika

    You can’t have it both ways, YAG, either you care about women’s privacy or you don’t. You don’t. You care far more about your own self-protection than you do about privacy.

    The only sure-fire way to protect yourself from people who may be bad partners is not to date. People have been navigating these issues for centuries, and well before Google existed.

  13. 13
    jeremy

    Re: the issue of cold approaching and the argument that women will signal their interest:  I think  that the signals that many women believe are obvious are often not obvious at all.

     

    Quick story – when I was young, the most frequent complement I received was that I was smart (which was unfortunate, because I would have rather been told I was good looking 🙂 ).  But because of that, I ego-invested much of my sexuality in intelligence, such that when a woman told me “you’re smart,” what I heard was “I want you.”  Problem was, that wasn’t what many of them meant.  I took an advanced class at my university and a female coed came up to me after class, smiled at me and said, “you look like you understand the material.  Would you like to study with me in the library?”  I thought she was hitting on me and I later asked her out.  She looked surprised and told me that she wasn’t interested in me that way, and just wanted to study.  I learned that just because a woman complemented my intelligence doesn’t necessarily mean she is interested.

     

    A year or two later, another female classmate started acting the same way.  Smiling, wanting to study together, etc.  I accepted, but never made a move.  She later wondered out loud to her friends (who passed the message to me) why I never responded to her obvious advances.

     

    A woman who smiles at you is not necessarily interested in you.  A woman who does not smile at you is not necessarily dis-interested.  One woman’s obvious signals are another woman’s non-signals.  And even if all the signals were uniform among women, relying on them assumes that a woman necessarily knows her own mind about a guy she has just seen – when in fact a “maybe” can turn into attraction after a good date or connection.

     

    TL;DR – even when you think you’re being obvious, you probably aren’t.

    1. 13.1
      Emily, the original

      Jeremy,

      The examples you gave of indecipherable signals were from women in their 20s. You were in your 20s. (I’m assuming so because you mentioned college.) I had no clue how to read or send signals at that age but I learned. A couple of years ago a man who I did not know well approached me at work. Despite the awkwardness of it, I could tell he was trying to chat me up. I was cordial but cool and found my exit after a few minutes. A few months later, a friend of his came into my office and told me that someone wanted to ask me out without naming him. I knew immediately who it was. And I think he sent his friend in because he was unsure, but I was being intentionally obtuse when we talked. I picked up his signals and he picked up mine; he was just ignoring them.

      1. 13.1.1
        Marika

        Emily

        The men are pretty much all telling you in no uncertain terms that women’s signals are not obvious. You telling them that they are is fruitless. Why would they lie?

        I have to say, I’m just as confused about what you ladies want. You want a confident pursuer, but you do, but you don’t…maybe you’d feel differently if the next man to approach you ended up being your husband!

        1. Tom10

          Marika
          Lol.
           
          I think I get it: they want the good-looking men to approach them and ask them out etc, but they want the not good-looking men to leave them alone!
           
          If only life worked like that…

        2. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          We want to control the narrative. To be standing on a balcony in a leopard-print dress, glamorously holding a martini glass, with ten appealing men in front of us … and we do the choosing. (Sorry. That was my “Sex in the City” fantasy!)

          Again … that guy who eventually asked me out at work told me he could not read me. HE COULD NOT READ ME. Don’t you think that was intentional on my part?

        3. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I think I get it: they want the good-looking men to approach them and ask them out etc,

          Now, Mr. Thomas. You know that we have had numerous conversations about attractiveness versus attraction. You can accuse me of a lot of things, but chasing after the hottest man is not one of them. I thought chasing after the hottest person was your deal?   🙂

        4. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Now, Mr. Thomas”
           
          Lol, dear Ms. the Original.
           
          “You can accuse me of a lot of things, but chasing after the hottest man is not one of them”. 
           
          Ha, fair enough Emily, I accept you’re not guilty of this (although the George Clooney reference did suggest it a little). 😉
           
          “I thought chasing after the hottest person was your deal?”
           
          Guilty. 🙁
           
          I’ll admit I see both sides of the argument on this one; I’m lucky that I’m actually pretty good at reading female signals and just “know” pretty quickly and accurately when women dig me or they don’t. Therefore, I rarely get harsh rejections as I’ve moved on fairly quickly when I sense it coming.
           
          So I actually agree with you – in spite of the comments of several male contributors’ comments here – that women generally give out blatant signals in real life about whether they’re interested or not.
           
          But so many men just don’t have. a. clue. how to gauge women (i.e. have no understanding of relative SMV) or read signals and it’s mortifying to witness them pestering uninterested women.
           
           
          I suppose like all these issues we just need to empathize with the experiences of the other side to further our own understanding; if women want guys to take the approach them, ask them out etc. they have to accept that the price of this is, um, guys coming up to them and approaching them. Even when they don’t want the attention at that time. And guys, well, we either get used to approaches and taking rejection or we don’t date.

        5. Emily, the original

          Thomas10

          Ha, fair enough Emily, I accept you’re not guilty of this (although the George Clooney reference did suggest it a little).

          I should have been clearer. I meant the George Clooney reference as symbolic of hunkazoid men in general. I used a celebrity because none of us know each other irl and I can’t point out a mutual acquaintance. To be honest, George Clooney is a little too clean cut for me. I like a hint of dirty birdie!   🙂
           I’ll admit I see both sides of the argument on this one; I’m lucky that I’m actually pretty good at reading female signals and just “know” pretty quickly and accurately when women dig me or they don’t.

          That’s because you, I sense, are a bit of a player. You’ve had some experience. I meant that as a compliment.

          So I actually agree with you – in spite of the comments of several male contributors’ comments here – that women generally give out blatant signals in real life about whether they’re interested or not.

          Thank you!
           
          I suppose like all these issues we just need to empathize with the experiences of the other side to further our own understanding; if women want guys to take the approach them, ask them out etc. they have to accept that the price of this is, um, guys coming up to them and approaching them. Even when they don’t want the attention at that time.

          Fair enough. Like I said, I can handle an approach if it’s pleasant and offers me an exit strategy. There’d be no reason for me to be blatantly rude to someone who’s been pleasant to me. I just don’t like repeated attempts when it’s clear I am trying to keep my distance. And by that I mean keeping the conversation short, being a bit brusque in my attempt to leave, etc. I don’t think those signals should be too hard to read. A person trying to get away from you isn’t interested.

  14. 14
    Shaukat

    Again … that guy who eventually asked me out at work told me he could not read me. HE COULD NOT READ ME. Don’t you think that was intentional on my part?

    If he couldn’t read you he might have believed that he actually had a rational basis for taking a shot just so he could be sure that you weren’t interested. You know what they say about 100% of the shots you never take…from a man’s perspective, it makes sense.

    There’s another massive flaw with this notion of ‘warm approaching.’ Many women might be reluctant to give off overt, clear signals because they’re also afraid of rejection. Thus, they might assume, ‘hey, he’s a guy, if he thinks I’m attractive he’ll come talk to me. No need to flash him a smile and have him walk away.’ If the man is waiting for a clear signal to approach, no one makes  a move, and this is a formula for paralysis.

    1. 14.1
      Emily, the original

      Shaukat,

      If he couldn’t read you he might have believed that he actually had a rational basis for taking a shot just so he could be sure that you weren’t interested. You know what they say about 100% of the shots you never take…from a man’s perspective, it makes sense.

      I don’t get that. If I’m not clear on someone’s interest, that would be a deterrent, especially if they made no effort to clear up the confusion with subsequent meetings. If  I’m in a situation in which the man hasn’t asked me out yet, but I’m suspecting he may, I remain obtuse. I can’t actually say no to something he hasn’t offered.

      Many women might be reluctant to give off overt, clear signals because they’re also afraid of rejection.

      Should I tell them to put their big girl panties on? (Sorry. I love that expression.) Sometimes you have to reveal a few of your cards, too, if you want to make your interest known.

  15. 15
    Jeremy

    @Emily, you wrote, “We want to control the narrative. To be standing on a balcony in a leopard-print dress, glamorously holding a martini glass, with ten appealing men in front of us … and we do the choosing.

     

    My grandmother used to say that she wanted my sister to get married.  Then she said she was just joking.  But she wasn’t joking at all.  I say this to understand that your statement, though intended as hyperbole, also contained a lot of truth about what you might want in an ideal world.
    But I think this is a “be careful what you wish for” idea, because it is a recipe for how to be a maximizer rather than a satisficer.  And I would wonder how easy it would be for someone who had so many choices to eventually settle on just one and be happy with that one.  I would imagine that at the first sign of conflict, choice-regret would kick in (a well-studied phenomenon in the book The Paradox of Choice) and unhappiness would ensue.

     

    We think we want choices, and that having choices will make us happy.  But although the perception that we have some control over our lives does make us happy, having an excess of choices is documented to make us less happy.  Applying this principle to dating advice changes many things…

    1. 15.1
      Emily, the original

      Mr. Jeremy,

      We think we want choices, and that having choices will make us happy. 

      Let’s be honest: Even if a woman is lucky enough to have a lot of options, those options are not created equally. I think she’d be THRILLED if the man she wanted the most wanted her. Then the other options wouldn’t mean anything.

       

  16. 16
    Jeremy

    @Callie, thread 4.  I have no issues with what you are saying….but just as many of the men who commented here lack perspective into the female experience, the reverse might also be true.  For example, I can tell you that not only do most men think about whether or not a woman will be receptive to their approach and how they can maximize the woman’s comfort – in fact many men prioritize these things so much that it paralyzes them to inaction or turns them into stammering idiots when approaching.

     

    Men are, to some extent, caught in a double-bind.  Women are attracted to confidence but are turned off by arrogance.  What is the difference between the two?  The perspective of the observer.  If you ask most women what they find attractive in a man, they will tell you a man who knows what he wants and goes after it.  When is that not attractive?  When what he wants is a particular woman who doesn’t want him.  And how is he supposed to know that?  Despite Emily’s insistence on the value of female signalling, I can tell you that the simple answer is that he can not know until he asks.  And if he asks, he must maximize his confidence and prioritize what he wants (not what she might want), because he can’t know what the woman in question wants.  It isn’t about feeling entitled to a woman – men know they aren’t entitled to a woman….if they were, they wouldn’t have to work so hard to get one.  It’s simply about wanting what one wants, and not being able to know what someone else wants.

     

    Having said that, if she tells him no, he should back off and not continue to push.  Most men know this, except the ones with impulse control (for whom all the education in the world won’t help).

    1. 16.1
      Callie

      The thing is, I never said otherwise. I even acknowledged that I didn’t have a personal history of bad approaches – I mean, I have had the odd uncomfortable one, and definitely the odd strange one: like when you’re on your phone walking quickly up a sidewalk and some dude starts walking next to you and talking and you finally look and realise he’s been talking to you the whole time even though you were in the middle of a conversation already. And while I’ve never accepted a cold approach, I have always been very polite and kind in my no, understanding how tough doing such an approach can be and not wanting to hurt anyone in a rejection.

      My point was, and always was, in response to Karl saying he prioritized his own desire to hit on women over their discomfort. When I asked him to clarify if he does everything he can to make sure he isn’t hitting on women who clearly don’t want to be hit on, he never actually answered and just got angry with me saying it was his right to hit on who he wanted and people like me had to grow up.

      I also debate that men cannot know until they ask. Yes sometimes signals are mixed, both men and women are capable of being very unclear. But when a woman is sitting on a bus with ear buds in her ears and you need to pull them out of her ears in order to talk to her? You are clearly stepping over a boundary (and yes this happens frequently). Heck when a woman is on the phone walking down a street, she clearly is busy and doesn’t have time to talk with you. Like why on earth that guy kept going was truly stunning to me, like he really thought I’d hang up on my conversation in order to talk with him.

      So while absolutely it’s tricky for men to always know, and it can be especially so in situations where the genders are expecting to hit on and be hit on, I’d argue there are still some pretty obvious cases where it’s clear, and men need to just accept that this time this particular woman isn’t someone you need to be cold approaching.

      Also I disagree that men know they aren’t entitled to women. The good ones do. You do. My BF does. My father does. My male friends do as well. But there are a lot of men out there who get viciously angry when a woman rejects them, who blame women for all their problems in life, who truly believe they are owed a woman and the fact that they don’t have one is a gross unfairness and women are doing it to hurt them on purpose. I have seen it. I have seen this attitude here in the comments (thankfully not often), and on the various other advice blogs I frequent. So while I’m happy to say #notallmen, I would hope you could acknowledge #wellactuallysomemen.

       

    2. 16.2
      Emily, the original

       Despite Emily’s insistence on the value of female signalling, I can tell you that the simple answer is that he can not know until he asks. 

      I’m sorry but I still think women signal. Years ago, at another job I had, I was talking to a female coworker when I guy I had always thought was attractive hovered several feet behind her. She finished our conversation and walked off. So this guy and I were looking at each other. He was standing several feet away, but he hesitated. It wasn’t a complete cold approach because i had spoken to him before, but our few interactions were short and businesslike. So I just stood there, looking at him, conveying that I was waiting for him to approach. (Had I walked off, I would have conveyed I didn’t want to talk to him.) And he did approach. It is sometimes that simple. It’s what I’ve written about before about “giving a man an opening” or helping him out.

      1. 16.2.1
        Jeremy

        A woman might compose a love poem and present it to a man in sign language. But unless he speaks sign language, he will just see a woman gesticulating wildly. Her intentions are anyone’s best guess.

        1. Emily, the original

          We’ll have to disagree I guess. The quote below is from Matthew Hussey, a dating coach who articulates it better than I have.

          We have to understand that there is always a flow to attraction. It’s not as simple as saying, “Men are supposed to do the chasing” or other clichés like that. The truth is, both of you take it in turns to move a little closer each time. It’s as though you are always closing down space and then re-creating it. For example, you close down space by asking him to join you guys at a party, and then leave space for him to make the move to come.Or you could close down space by touching his hand, giving him space to make the move to kiss you. You are in a dance of attraction in which you both chase a little at different times.

           

           

        2. Jeremy

          Emily, I think our disagreement is not so much in theory but in practice.  I agree that women *should* signal their interest and that some women do.  Perhaps even most women.  But 2 things get in the way of this.  1) Men not understanding the subtle signals of women which vary from woman to woman, 2) Women only signalling when they feel a “yes” in terms of attraction, but not a “maybe”.  And how often can a maybe turn into a good relationship?  And how many more men are willing to act on a maybe than women?

           

          Having said that, I’ve never cold approached a woman back when I was dating.  Too worried about how any given woman would feel about an unwelcome advance.  And because of that worry, I missed out on a lot of subtle signals that were sent my way in my 20s.

        3. Emily, the original

          Hi Jeremy,

          2) Women only signalling when they feel a “yes” in terms of attraction, but not a “maybe”.  

          At lest you’ll know she’s really interested. Sometimes if a man is doing all the work in the very beginning (the first few weeks), she could just be along for the ride.

  17. 17
    Marika

    So, YAG, go out with a woman you are attracted to and trust her not to cheat. I don’t know what the stats are on cheating  (you probably do), but I know the vast majority of people don’t cheat.

    From what you’ve written here, you were a player before your marriage. All signs pointed to you lacking the ability to be a faithful husband and a family man. But you were both, right? If Google existed before your marriage and if your ex wife has your data mining skills, your marriage and those beautiful daughters may never have existed (I’m sure there’s some chat room out there where your former lovers are bemoaning your player status😀)

  18. 18
    Marika

    Nissa

    I never said all countries, I said most countries. I’ve travelled extensively, and the countries where men will confidently approach strange women on the street are in the minority.

    I agree with YAG (shock, horror!) on the money thing. You never pay for a date? Ever? So a guy can date you for 6 months and you happily let him foot all the bills? And that indicates you’re interested (because you make small gestures)?? Elsewhere Stacy said if a woman doesn’t at least offer to pay by date 3 she’s not interested. No wonder men are confused.

    I like chivarly, in fact, I love it. But if you’re never paying (it sounds like you never even offer to pay), that’s just taking the guy for granted and no wonder they’re starting to push back. I really don’t understand how you justify that.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *