No More Mr. Nice Guy – an Interview With Dr. Robert Glover

Have you ever felt powerless in a relationship? Have you kept your mouth shut to avoid conflict? Have you let men walk all over you? Have you been a giver in a relationship that felt imbalanced? Then you must tune in to today’s Love U Podcast with Dr. Robert Glover, author of “No More Mr. Nice Guy” – a book written for men that applies to lots of “nice” women as well.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Theodora

    I think it’s a difference between how men and women perceive and are attracted to niceness/kindness/tenderness though.

    In a “nice guy with balls”, the attractive part is the balls, niceness is just a bonus.

    In a “nice girl with boundaries”, the attractive part is the niceness, the boundaries might be a bonus.

    When men put up with “hot and crazy/bitchy”, it’s the hotness they are attracted to and just tolerate more or less the bitchiness, depending on their options. However, they would be even more attracted to hot&accommodating, as it is demonstrated by the fantasy industries catering to men like porn, strip clubs and brothels, whose advertisements show women hot, nice and willing. If men were attracted to “boundaries”, these fantasy industries would advertise women in all shapes and sizes setting their boundaries. Boundaries are beneficial for the women who set them, but not an attraction trigger per se for men.

    While no matter how hot, nice and willing a man is, if he doesn’t have a backbone (his authentic self, says Robert Glover), he is in danger of dying celibate. Being his own person, standing for himself, having a spine  – his “boundaries” – constitute exactly the attractive part, more than his appearance or any other attributes.

     

    1. 1.1
      Jeremy

      Agreed 100%.  Having said that, I liked this podcast.  The unspoken contracts were like hearing my own previous thoughts reflected back at me, and the “head conversations” of self-justification are things I’ve done many times.  His advice to stop and reflect about what those things say about us rather than others is good advice (and difficult to follow, as Evan said).

  2. 2
    Emily, the original

    This was an informative podcast. Dr. Glover hit the nail on the head with describing the nice guy as seeking approval and validation. As a woman, you can feel that energy. But he fails to create what he calls positive emotional tension to “start her engine.” No lady boner.

    1. 2.1
      JC

      So right! I just went on a date with a guy like this. I could tell he was embarrassed and ashamed about his job history. He did the “victim puke” thing that Dr. Glover mentioned – spent the whole date complaining about how he didn’t get hired for this one job. He did not have any confidence in himself, was uncomfortable talking about himself, and tried to deflect by asking me more about myself. It was the most boring, yet also uncomfortable, date I’d ever been on. I wanted to tell him how pathetic he seemed, but that probably wouldn’t be helpful. Or kind. I was barely attracted to him to begin with, and as the date went on, I couldn’t even consider being friends with him. None of my friends are cowering, pathetic wo/man-children. Don’t nobody got time for that ish.

  3. 3
    John

    This the best podcast I’ve heard thus far on your website.

    I’ve taken several of Dr Glover’s online classes and I found them extremely valuable.

    I also read his book about five years ago and it changed my life.

     

  4. 4
    Yet Another Guy

    I concur with John’s assessment of the podcast.  It was very informative.

  5. 5
    S.

    If you mess with a woman’s trust, you mess with a woman’s lust.

    Bingo.  I like how he said a certain amount of uncertainty has to be there for arousal, but not so much that you lose a woman’s trust.  This is the nuance I don’t hear expressed often enough.   People think uncertainty is everything. It’s only part of it. If it’s uncertain enough that a woman no longer trusts, the lust is killed dead.  Every time. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.

    Wow, I used to be a nice girl! About covert contracts, “If I take care of everyone’s needs without them having to ask, they will take care of my needs without me having to ask.” I love this one.  No, not that he said it. I love living it. If only it were true! But nope.  Of course not.  I wish these contracts were more overt!  Talking about stuff really would help.

    Gotta run to work.  I really got something out of this podcast.  Sometimes it’s hearing something that’s only been in my head made real and said out loud by someone else.

    I also like his point to ask, “What is the story I’m telling, telling about me?”

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “I wish these contracts were more overt”? They are for people who speak their mind instead of expecting others to read it and getting disappointed that they don’t. You have full power to change this right now.

      1. 5.1.1
        Jeremy

        I think Evan is right, but I also understand what S is saying (I think), because I often find myself feeling the same way.  It’s about validation.  It is far more validating when your BF buys you flowers without being asked, because he knows you want the appreciation, than if you ask him to do it.  Having to ask dramatically reduces the validation.  It would be NICE (for people who like validation) to have a relationship where the partner knows what we want and takes the time and effort without having to be asked….it just may not be realistic because not everyone understands this mindset.

         

        As a personal example, I’m good friends with a couple where the guy is about to celebrate a significant birthday.  The wife has asked her husband over and over what he wants, and he just shakes his head and says “do whatever you want.”  She came to me and said, “you know him, what does he want for his birthday?”  I replied, “He wants you to do what you know he likes after 15 years of marriage, without having to be asked.”  I could see him nodding in the background.

         

        I think there is a balance, especially in mature relationships, between what is reasonable to expect without having to ask, and what needs to be asked for.  JMO.

        1. S.

          He wants you to do what you know he likes after 15 years of marriage, without having to be asked.

          It’s nice when someone gets it right or when you can tell they were thinking about you when they try to be thoughtful.

          Talking about relationships is great, esp. as you say in mature relationships.  When you have to tell a person every little thing or have to repeat the same things, I feel like they just aren’t paying attention.  If it’s earlier on, that could be a factor in the attraction going down and after that I don’t bother telling them because there’s no point.

          A woman wants to feel that the man has been listening and that they’re on the same page. I do tell men stuff, but some men just don’t take what I say seriously.  And if you have to repeat stuff it’s probably a sign of it not being the right match.

        2. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          As a personal example, I’m good friends with a couple where the guy is about to celebrate a significant birthday.  The wife has asked her husband over and over what he wants, and he just shakes his head and says “do whatever you want.”  She came to me and said, “you know him, what does he want for his birthday?”  I replied, “He wants you to do what you know he likes after 15 years of marriage, without having to be asked.”  I could see him nodding in the background.

          This isn’t’ reasonable and his response is annoying. It’s passive aggressive. If she gets it wrong, is he going to hold it against her? If he can’t articulate what he wants, she should do what she wants, which is a nice store bought cupcake.

        3. Jeremy

          Emily, the point in this case IMHO is that no matter what she does she wouldn’t get it wrong.  He’d rather she get him a store-bought cupcake than have her bake him a dinner he had to ask for.  What he wanted wasn’t a specific thing or activity.  It was to be given something by someone who knows and loves him, without having to ask for it.  I totally get that it would be annoying for a person who focuses on the thing or the activity and worries about getting it wrong or resentment….but if such a person is in a relationship with a person who doesn’t focus on things and activity but rather on concepts, the way to give a gift is different.  Which is why you see me constantly writing about the importance of understanding ourselves and our partners.

        4. Emily, the original

          Jeremy, 

          Emily, the point in this case IMHO is that no matter what she does she wouldn’t get it wrong.It was to be given something by someone who knows and loves him, without having to ask for it.

          If he’d be fine with whatever she plans, then ok. I think sometimes, though, people assume you’d want what they’d want. When I was about to leave a job I’d worked at for almost 5 years, one of my coworkers pulled me aside to tell me other co-workers were planning on getting me a cake for my last day. I said, “Please don’t do that. I’ll be uncomfortable and feel like I’m being put on the spot.” And he listened to me and I’m glad they didn’t get the cake. To be honest, I’d have been perfectly happy to just get my coat and quietly go, with no goodbyes. But other people would be hurt if there was no cake.

        5. Mrs Happy

          One interpretation:

          If she has asked him over and again what he wants, and he hasn’t answered her because he wants her “to just know”, he’ll probably be upset/angry when she doesn’t “just know” (gets it wrong).  He’s setting her up to fail.  She knows what he’s doing, that’s why she keeps asking for direction.

          Such a repeated conversation, and such passive aggressive behaviour, would drive me nuts.  Love isn’t measured by the ability to mindread.

          It is absolutely normal and reasonable to ask what your spouse wants to do for their 40th or 50th birthday.  It is absolutely reasonable and normal to answer the question like a logical, emotionally stable adult.

        6. Nissa

          Emily TO and Mrs Happy have hit the nail on the head. Neither gender should expect their spouses to be mind readers. I would be really put off by a person like this. Wasn’t it Carl Jung who defined masculinity as ‘knowing what you want and doing what is needed to pursue it’? When people don’t know what they want, it seems so lacking in confidenece, so disconnected from their true self, that the person is unappealing.

        7. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          When people don’t know what they want, it seems so lacking in confidence, so disconnected from their true self, that the person is unappealing.

          Yeah, I agree. Can’t he just say something simple like, “I’d like you to plan an evening out for just to the two of us” or “I’d like you to plan a big party.” Why is that so hard to do? If someone said repeatedly that he did’t know what he wanted, I’d stop asking. I’d feel like he was playing some kind of game.

          When I was a kid and visiting my grandparents, my grandfather would ask my grandmother and me where we wanted to go for dinner. She would list about five places, but if I didn’t pick the one she wanted, she’d simply list them again. It was very irritating. My grandfather would get annoyed and remove himself. “Just let me know what you’ve decided.”

        8. Nissa

          Emily TO,

          Amen! Hallelujeh! Praise the Lord! (This is Southern speak for, I very much agree with you).

        9. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          Amen! Hallelujeh! Praise the Lord! (This is Southern speak for, I very much agree with you).

          That’s funny. I live in the South. I’m writing a book about my experience. I call it: “A Yankee Among Them.”   🙂

        10. SparklingEmerald

          Am I the only woman on this blog who doesn’t think the husband in Jeremy’s birthday scenario is wrong, weak, passive-agressive or nefariously setting her up to fail ?

          After 15 years of marriage, one would think one would know the following about their spouse:  Favorite Foods, Favorite Activities, Favorite Music, Favorite Friends,  do they prefer small intimate gathering with friends or big blow out parties with everyone they know ?  Over the years hasn’t she ever heard him express a desire to get a particular gadget “some time” ?

          I don’t think it should be so hard to surprise one’s spouse on their birthday after 15 years.  And isn’t being surprised one of the delights of gift giving and celebrations ?

          Not knowing this couple and going only on Jeremy’s 2nd hand re-counting, I think this husband just wanted his wife to surprise him with something thoughtful and meaningful to him without having to give her step by step instructions. He could have just said something along the lines of  “I’d like you to surprise me, I trust that you know me well enough to come up with something wonderful” but I don’t know their relationship dynamic, so I am just guessing here. I don’t think he’s secretly plotting to leave it all in her hands, so he can berate for not “getting it right”.

          Maybe it’s just me, but I LOVE finding just the right gift or the right experience to give someone (friends and lover’s alike).  I have bought gifts 6 months in advance, based on hearing someone muse out loud about wanting something, or just seeing something and it just jumped out at me as being the perfect gift for someone.  My hubby says I give the best gifts ever and we’ve only been married just under one year.  I planned a surprise outing for him on his birthday based on HIS likes, and he said I totally nailed it !  We  have a policy between us that gifts are always optional, appreciated but not expected.  We only gift each other if we find something that just jumps out at us as being just right.  Sometimes we give gifts for no reason, sometimes a traditional gift giving day will come and go with only one of us giving something or none of us gifting the other.  We prefer to create memories, so we usually just do outings and special dates for occasions.  It works for us, and neither one of us has to tell the other what to get or do.

          To me, asking for a specific gift, would be like buying your own birthday card.

        11. Emily, the original

          S.E.

          To me, asking for a specific gift, would be like buying your own birthday card.

          I have no problem surprising someone with a gift, but when people surprise you … the gift can sometimes be well-meaning but not necessarily what you want. For example, I’m a big Marilyn Monroe fan. Over the years, I have been given so many Monroe-related gifts that I now have memorabilia coming out of my ears — countless books, nail polish, underwear (ironic, because she was known for not wearing any). I don’t really want anymore. Another example: My former boss, who I worked for for 5 years. He would sometimes buy me those expensive coffee drinks and bring them into work. It was a nice gesture, and I never said anything, but I never drink coffee. It would have been better for him to call before he came in and say, “Hey, I’m at Starbucks. Do you want anything?”

        12. SparklingEmerald

          Hmmmm, many women on this blog have expressed the desire that they like for the  man to plan a date.  And we are talking about the very beginning getting to know each other phase.  Am I the only one who finds it ironic that women think a man is wrong, passive aggressive or unappealing because he would like his wife of 15 years to do the planning for his birthday ?

        13. Emily, the original

          Sparkling,

          Am I the only one who finds it ironic that women think a man is wrong, passive aggressive or unappealing because he would like his wife of 15 years to do the planning for his birthday ?

          Well, obviously she doesn’t feel comfortable either planning it or knowing what he wants  because:  The wife has asked her husband over and over what he wants, and he just shakes his head and says “do whatever you want.” 

          I don’t know exactly why she doesn’t feel comfortable, but she does. And answering “do whatever you want” isn’t helping because … well, she keeps asking. So if he wants her to plan it and surprise him … he needs to tell her that. It takes all of one sentence.

      2. 5.1.2
        S.

        Absolutely.  That’s why I say I ‘used’ to be a nice girl.  🙂 The interesting thing was I spoke my mind everywhere else, but not in dating.  In dating I thought letting a man lead meant being ‘nice’.

        It’s a fine line. Men don’t want a woman who is emasculating, but they also want a woman who has opinions. In my non-dating life, I just have opinions and don’t care what people think.

    2. 5.2
      Margo

      If I take care of everyone’s needs without them having to ask, they will take care of my needs without me having to ask.”

      I lived with this fantasy for many, many years. I think there are many of us out there who grew up in situations where we felt we were expected to guess a parent’s (or someone’s) needs and fulfill them, without those needs ever being stated, and without receiving any acknowledgment for our emotional labor. My dream was that I would find someone who could do for me what I had become adept at doing for others. Only then, I thought, would I be truly loved, and my great empathy would finally be appreciated.

      It took a long and very unhappy marriage to teach me that it is essential to be able to ask for what I need, and to expect my partner to ask for what he needs. I had to learn to be comfortable with not having to “guess” my partner’s (or friends’) needs in order to be loved. And I had to learn that I could say “no” – even to an explicit request – and still be worthy of love. Once I was able to give up this fantasy, I started developing much healthier relationships. (And had to leave some unhealthy ones behind.)

       
      That said, I agree with Jeremy that when we have been with someone for a length of time, we feel known and loved when that person just understands some of our needs. In the case of Jeremy’s friend, how might that friend have better communicated to his wife what he really wanted for his birthday?

      1. 5.2.1
        S.

        That wasn’t my situation growing up. My mother is very overt.  She was explicit about exactly what she wanted. No guesswork.  Great for small children, glad she mellowed as we got older.

        I think I am a very intuitive person. If I pay attention, at least early in life, I learned many of my guesses were right. It does take some work to have empathy and observe people.  So yes, I wanted someone to take that time and work with me.  (Not I just give myself what I want.  That works too. :-))

        But as I said above, some men I tell directly what I want–they can repeat it back–and they still forget, don’t do it, misinterpret.  I’m at a loss there especially when I’ve braved the conversation.  I probably don’t like being so overt (or it feels extremely overt) because my mom was such a micromanger when we were small kids and when I do that with a man I start to feel mom-like.  Definitely an attraction killer–on both sides.

        So that’s what my story says about me. 🙂

      2. 5.2.2
        Jeremy

        I think that’s a really good question, but something of a catch-22.  What he wanted was to not have to ask.  Whether or not what his wife eventually chose to do would have been his first, second, or tenth choices was, IMHO, less of an issue than having to ask for it.  I know that for myself, I’d often rather have nothing than have to ask, because I have enough responsibility on my plate.  Having to ask for something and then having to take responsibility for it is just adding to my burden – something I think many women here fully understand.  But it is difficult – REALLY difficult IME – to communicate to someone that what you really need is to not need to be asked.

        1. S.

          I know that for myself, I’d often rather have nothing than have to ask, because I have enough responsibility on my plate.

          This.

          I explain all day.  Sometimes I just get so, so tired.  And I love talking, but at home I need to just be sometimes. Have someone make me a cup of tea without explaining exactly how or why.  And not reminding someone that I like tea.  I don’t mind telling someone a few times, but after that, yeah, I’d rather have nothing than say it multiple times.

        2. Nissa

          Ok, so I’m trying to put myself in your shoes on this one, but Because I truly believe people just do what they want to do. They might find ways to rationalize it, but at the end, if they are not doing it, it’s because they don’t want to. It’s been my experience that when I’m ignoring that, it’s because the idea that the person I love doesn’t want to offer what I want them to offer is so painful, that I rationalize it. It also usually means I’m not doing my work somewhere. Let offer an example.

          When I was married, my husband got off work by 3pm or earlier daily. I didn’t get off until 5pm. As my marriage slowly died, it became a regular practice for him to not come home until after me, or not at all, with no call or message on the machine. This was before cell phones became common. (I found out later he got a cell phone and didn’t tell me).

          For a long time, I didn’t ask him to come home earlier. Looking back, I instinctively felt that my request would be rejected or scorned (I was right). I just kept asking him what time he would be home, hoping he would just do what I wanted without my having to ask (see the familiar part here?). Or I would try to plan things at that time so he would have to show up.

          What I failed to realize for a long time was that this was not really about his coming home. It was about me not honoring my own wants and needs. It was about me not being honest about what I wanted, because in my heart I believed I wouldn’t get it. The very few times I did get it, it ‘validated’ my way of handling things. Notice that what it validated for me was not his caring for me (although I thought so at the time) but that the fault was essentially his for not being caring enough to do that all the time – that he was selfish, not a good husband.

          When I finally said to my ex, “you are my husband and I want you to come home at night, or at least call to tell me when you can’t”, he cleared that up for me right away. He said, “I’m going to do what I want. If you don’t like it, leave”. Bam. Destroyed my hope of my getting what I wanted (which I wasn’t getting anyway). But I wasn’t able to live in denial about it anymore, either.

          This was a blessing in disguise, because it showed me that I was in a marriage that didn’t meet my needs, because I accepted it every day. I had failed to ask for what I wanted. I had failed to make my contracts overt. I had failed to call him on it, when he used covert contracts or failed to honor his part of the deal. It wasn’t my ex’s fault that my needs weren’t getting met. It was my fault for not making sure my own needs were met, or getting out of Dodge. Literally the day after I left him, a coworker told me, “Hey, what’s different? You look so much happier”. Literally. One. Day. Later.

          Which is why to this day I cringe when someone answers a question with: I don’t know.

        3. Jeremy

          Sure Nissa, all of that makes total sense from the perspective of your (unfortunate) experience.  But my friends’ marriage is very different from yours.  The husband goes out of his way to constantly do nice things for the wife (and vice versa).  They love and respect each other and are not playing power games with each other to see who can do the least while getting the most, or who can maintain the most independence while taking the most advantage.  So when one of them tells the other that no matter what she chooses it will be fine because he doesn’t care what she does as long as she loves him and does something she thinks he will like, THAT is all that matters.  This is a different species from your past experience with your ex, which is likely why you are having trouble relating.

  6. 6
    Yet Another Guy

    @Evan

    I cannot begin to thank you enough for bringing Dr. Glover to my attention.   I started to read his book last night.  The opening paragraph from his book is spot on:

    Five decades of dramatic social change and monumental shifts in the traditional family have created a breed of men who have been conditioned to see the approval of others.  I call these men Nice Guys.

    As a guy who went from being a nice guy in his early twenties to being a jerk in his mid through late twenties to being what I like to call an emotionally independent man from his thirties onward, I agree with Dr. Glover that root cause of this problem has been major social change.  It has left a lot of men in an emotional wilderness where they attempt to do what women want and get slapped hard for doing so.  These are the so called “generous” men, which is why I hit “next” when I encounter a female profile that includes that word.  It is not until a man takes back his manhood and says, “If a woman wants my love, she is going to have to earn it” that he starts to gain the respect of the woman in his life.

    Later in book, Dr. Glover discusses soft males and boy-men.  The following quote from Salon in his book is also spot on:

    The hard-driving woman has to switch personae when she gets home. She’s got to throttle back, or she’ll castrate everything in the domestic niche. Many white, middle-class women have dodged this dilemma by finding themselves a nice, malleable boy-man who becomes another son in the subliminally matriarchal household.

    How many times have we read posts on this blog from women who wrote that they do not want a man who becomes another child while failing to recognize that their own behavior is what is driving this phenomenon?  Buck25 and I brought this problem up while discussing Bumble. Buck25 referred to it as the “sensitive modern man.”  Here is a disconnect between what women say they want and what they really want.  A woman has to pick what kind of man she desires.  If she desires a sensitive modern man, she should not be surprised when he fails to generate sexual tension.

     

    1. 6.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      True. And when men want smart, independent career women, they should not be surprised that they’re not as easygoing or nurturing as they might like.

      1. 6.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        Absolutely, people cannot have it both ways.  I am discovering that many men and women in my age cohort have learned this lesson the hard way, including yours truly.  I like how Dr. Glover describes the nice guy and the jerk as basically two sides of the same coin.  I wonder if this same dynamic applies to women (i.e., nice girl versus raging b****).

    2. 6.2
      Nissa

      I can’t agree with you on this, YAG. Love is like trust – it should be given freely without a requirement for it to be earned, until the person does something that violates that love or trust. Even Evan has said many times that our dates shouldn’t be punished for the actions of lovers past, but trusted to be a new and different person. Love is the same thing. Starting from a place that assumes people are not to be trusted or loved rarely generates trust or love. It’s just not effective. Trusting and loving people until they give us a reason not to, is effective.

      I love generous men. I love generous women. I love generous people in general. Probably because I AM one, and enjoy the trait that I value in myself, in others. Generosity is a wonderful relationship trait. I generously went with my father to all of his doctor visits for five years as he slowly died from renal failure. After 12 hours at the hospital, I would set my alarm for the time for his next medication, wake up and call to make sure he got his pain meds at 3am. I generously help my friends move. I generously pick items off the top shelf for the short customers next to me in the store. I generously sing to my dogs when I give them a bath, so they are not scared. Generous literally just means ‘giving more of something than is necessary or expected’. It’s most valuable, when what we are giving, is ourselves.

      Where I do agree with you and Buck25 is that most of us fail to recognize our own part in what we experience. Many women do treat their spouses like children, then complain that he acts like a child. But facing that would mean that 1) they might have to change themselves, which few people want to do; 2)have to let go of judging and blaming their spouse, which few people want to do; 3) admit that they are in a situation which might not be fixable, which would mean breaking up the relationship, changing their relationship status and affecting their finances. It’s much, much easier to just complain and blame.

      I have known male and female ‘nice guys’ who use these unwritten contracts. It’s basically people who did not get approval from a parent in that developmental stage, which would allow them to make a mistake or do something wrong, yet be inherently a good person. That lack of approval and love, means that any time they do something wrong, they MUST cover it up, to feel ok about themselves, so that they can be a good person. This dynamic exists with every person they encounter.

      Last, I cannot agree with Dr Glover when he talks about women needing ‘positive emotional tension’. It just sounds like a female version of ‘men need sexual variety’. I don’t think it applies to everyone. Some do, and some don’t. I would argue that people who feel abundant, who believe they can have more, pursue more. Traditionally women have been in powerless positions that would cause them to have a mindset of lack, and would therefore settle for what they could get, leading to traditional females stereotypes. Now that power is flipping, we are seeing the dynamic flip also – as in Dr Glover saying women need variety, while men are content with the same lady or pair of pants.

      1. 6.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Nissa

        The problem is that for every women who is like you, there are at least one hundred women who are not remotely like you.  These are the women for whom a man needs to remain in a mode where he ensures that the woman in his life lives in state where there is at least a slight level of uncertainty.  Most of the women I have encountered in my life rapidly lose sexual interest in a man they can have without continuous effort to earn his love.  I do not know if is a self-esteem issue or basic primal behavior.  I have never been desired as much by the woman in my life as when I was in my indifferent bad-boy stage.  Evan brought up the issue of taming the bad boy, but I believe that a woman would lose interest in a bad boy if she managed to tame him.  In my humble opinion, it is the feeling that he will never truly be available that makes him irresistible.  It is like an unspoken code where any man who can be had without continuous work is not worth having.  After all, a man with options is not easy to keep, and women only want men who other women desire.

         

        1. Nissa

          I’d have to agree that I seem to be a bit…uncommon, lol. I’ve never in my life lost sexual interest because I didn’t have to earn a man’s love. I have dated men in whom I had low sexual interest (arousal) to start, and by dating him discovered that my attraction to him was also low and could not compensate for the lack of arousal. I know I did once have a feeling that a man would never truly be available to me – my husband, right before I decided that I couldn’t live like that, and left him.

          What I have heard women say are things like: “This guy is just too into me” (meaning, when someone is trying so hard, so quickly, it seems like they are hiding something or setting you up for a big ask later, or even that she sees him as having lower social market value), or “he’s moving too fast (usually meaning he wants sex right away).

          I have had men who just stared at me longingly, and it only inspired in me not desire, but a desire to treat them gently so as to not hurt their feelings. (Sadly, that never happened with a man I actually wanted to date, so I can’t speak to that experience).  I have had men want to give me things right away, but that only inspired questions about why he wanted to give so much / out of proportion to how well he knew me. I am happy to accept courtesy and kindness that are proportional to how well a person knows me. But gestures beyond that tend to be the kind of ‘nice’ behavior of which Karl R spoke.

        2. Nissa

          Also, don’t date those women that lose interest unless they have to continuously make effort to earn a man’s love, they sound like a pain in the rear. Just date women who are offering what you want.

  7. 7
    Karl R

    There was a ton of great material in this.

    Resentful “Nice Guys”:

    I’ve seen lots of these men post on the blog over the years.  It’s blatantly obvious to me (and probably every woman) how these men’s attitude would repel women.

    I’ve also seen the female counterparts to these men.  The women who think all men are jerks.  The ones who think men just want young, hot women.  The women who think men are like parking spots — all the good ones are taken, and the available ones are handicapped.  I’ve seen them on the blog, and I’ve encountered them in real life.

    I don’t think any of these men and women realize that their attitude has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It’s remarkably easy for people to sense that there’s something unwelcoming about them … so all the sane, functional people avoid them.

    Non-Resentful, Unsuccessful, Nice Guys:

    Having been this kind of guy back in my teens and early twenties, I eventually came to the same conclusion as Robert Glover.  I was insecure.  I had a low risk tolerance for rejection.  I had unrealistic expectations for how often I should expect to succeed / fail.  My “nice” behavior was an attempt to succeed while avoiding rejection, rather than any “nice” motives I ascribed to it.

    By trying to befriend women before dating them, I was not improving my odds of success.  With more experience, I’m inclined to believe that I was actually lowering my success rate.  Even if my success rate wasn’t being lowered, I was wasting a lot more time to achieve the exact same success rate.

    Most importantly, since I’d invested so much more time and emotional energy into each woman, the rejection felt a lot more personal … and took a lot longer to recover from.

    Covert Contracts:

    This one made me laugh.  I understood the concept immediately … and how different these contracts to the other person.

    Person 1’s covert contract: “If I take care of everyone’s needs without them having to ask, they will take care of my needs without me having to ask.”

    Person 2’s covert contract: “This person does all these nice things for me without wanting anything in return.”

    And both of these people think they’ve agreed to the same contract.

    It’s like a real-life dysfunctional sitcom.  Hilarity ensues.

    Mind Reading:

    After three years of dating plus an additional five years of marriage, my wife and I still regularly misread each other’s body language.  Fortunately, we’re both pretty good about using words to ask for things.

    The Alternative:

    Instead of waiting for your partner to read minds, or getting angry when they don’t, there is a third solution that works well.

    Do it yourself, without getting mad about it.

    1. 7.1
      S.

      I guess the thing is people differ on what overt contracts sound like.  It doesn’t sound very romantic in my brain.  If someone says out loud, “I’m bringing you soup when you’re sick so you will bring me soup when I’m sick.”  It doesn’t sound very generous, even if at heart, it’s not.  And things change.  Sometimes you do do things truly not wanting things in return, sometimes you do.  Do you tell the person the difference?

      This may not be popular, but I do like when people have the experience to know the differences in a situations like the above without me having to say it.  But yes, the simplest is to have everyone buy their own soup. 🙂

      Dr. Glover’s site mentioned that some nice guys do things for women hoping sex will be down the line at some point.  Covert contract.  I don’t need it said.  That’s why I used to not  let of men do stuff for me because I could sense the contract.  But I bet I was wrong lotsa times and some people were just being nice. So I don’t make assumptions anymore.  Men establish covert contracts too.  Some men don’t let you into their private life with their family because they don’t want to create a contract or expectation that you’re going to be permanent in his life.

      I can’t think of ways to verbalize or make it more overt this without someone sounding incredibly needy or really assumptive.

      1. 7.1.1
        Karl R

        S. asked:

        “Sometimes you do do things truly not wanting things in return, sometimes you do.  Do you tell the person the difference?”

        If I want (or expect) some quid pro quo, I don’t try to pretend that I’m making a romantic / generous gesture.  It’s disingenuous.

        If would like soup when I’m sick, I find it a lot more effective, a lot more clear, and a lot less likely to result in misunderstandings to ask for soup when I’m sick.  I’m not expecting the other person to keep a running tally based on what I did for them months earlier.

        And I also have modest expectations for getting soup.  The situation may not be equal.  I probably fixed soup at a time and place when it was convenient for me.  My request for soup may be more inconvenient, which may mean the person is unable to do that favor.

        In short, I don’t expect the person to assume that it’s anything besides a generous gesture, unless I specify otherwise.  (I personally wouldn’t agree to a “quid pro quo” unless I knew what the “quid” and the “quo” were.)

         

        S. said:

        “some nice guys do things for women hoping sex will be down the line at some point.  Covert contract.  I don’t need it said.”

        I don’t think it’s your obligation (or mine) to dodge all covert contracts.  If it’s not overt, you didn’t agree to it.  On the other hand, I made at least some effort to refuse favors where there may be some quid pro quo attached.  “Don’t inconvenience yourself.  I can handle this myself.”  If the person pushed, they usually did so by pointing out that it wasn’t an inconvenience.

        If the favor didn’t inconvenience them, and it didn’t benefit me that much, there’s now a mutual understanding that I owe them nothing (or extremely little) in return.

         

        S. said:

        “I can’t think of ways to verbalize or make it more overt this without someone sounding incredibly needy or really assumptive.”

        Be assertive.  If you would like someone to do something for you, ask them if they could/would.  If there’s a pattern where you’ve done things for them, and they’re not reciprocating, you’ve learned something about the nature of your relationship.

        If you want to meet someone’s family, tell them, “I would like to meet your family sometime.  Could we invite them over to my place?”  If you’re to the point where you’re boyfriend / girlfriend, that doesn’t seem assumptive or needy.  If there’s a family issue that makes it awkward, you should have a hint what it is, and then modify the request accordingly.

        1. S.

          If would like soup when I’m sick, I find it a lot more effective, a lot more clear, and a lot less likely to result in misunderstandings to ask for soup when I’m sick. 

          As I said, it’s simplest  to me for everyone to buy their own soup.  That’s what I do.  Sometimes its hard to ask for help.  Because it makes one vulnerable and the person could say no. I had a tooth out in November and asked a friend for soup. She agreed and then forgot. It had been really hard to ask her.   We’re still friends but now I take care of my own needs. I didn’t discuss it or anything.  Asking was difficult enough and I was feverish and ill at the time. I could bring it up now but I’m not disappointed or mad at this point.  People do their best.  Yes, I learned about the nature of our relationship but in that moment, I would have rather learned that when I felt healthier.

          Right now a friend of mine’s sister passed away.  We’re not super-close though I’d like to know her better.  Another friend obtained the address and time of the funeral next week.  I don’t expect her to ask me to attend and I don’t think she’d feel slighted if I didn’t.  I don’t expect her to come to my family funerals so wouldn’t expect that in return.  Would it inconvenience me to go? Sure.  These things usually do inconvenience me.  But I like her a lot and would like to show her support.  She doesn’t have to ask and if a family member of mine died I wouldn’t be in an emotional place to ask anyone.

          Is it assertive to ask? Of course, I agree it is.  But I’m not always in a place to be that assertive.  When all is fine, sure.  But when I’m not feeling well or have suffered a loss, it’s a lot more difficult.

    2. 7.2
      Nissa

      Karl R. – My “nice” behavior was an attempt to succeed while avoiding rejection, rather than any “nice” motives I ascribed to it.

      Yes, yes, yes. And that’s not a commentary about men, because women do it too. The really sad thing about it is that this person genuinely believes they are just being nice, and any attempt to explain it to them is roundly rejected. For men it becomes “women just like the bad boy / jerks / assholes”. For women it becomes “men only like bitches / hot bodies / submissive women”.

      Both genders are being manipulative and fake. Both genders would benefit greatly by working on themselves to be more confident and true to themselves. Both genders can completely avoid covert contracts, EASILY, by saying “I want X”. BOOM. No confusion. No manipulation. But because it requires being vulnerable, possibly being told no or rejected, people rarely do this. but it works.

      I love it, Karl, that you suggest each person do it themselves. That’s awesome, and so true. When we require it of ourselves first, the conflicts with others tend to melt away.

      1. 7.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Nissa,

        Karl R. – My “nice” behavior was an attempt to succeed while avoiding rejection, rather than any “nice” motives I ascribed to it.

        I call it going in the side door and not the front. You’ve become friends with the person, shared personal details of your life, and then, out of the blue, he’s starts making all these sexual comments at you. And you think: “Huh? What just happened?” And all the while, you’ve both been talking about your romantic prospects/dates. If a woman is talking to a man about other men, she sees him as a friend.

      2. 7.2.2
        Karl R

        Nissa said:

        “For women it becomes ‘men only like bitches / hot bodies / submissive women’.”

        Thanks for adding this.  I was struggling to articulate the women’s version of this.

        Nissa said:

        “I love it, Karl, that you suggest each person do it themselves.”

        My motive is somewhat different than what you suggest (causing conflicts to melt away) though your comment was inherently correct.  I recommend doing this for myself/yourself as an act of empowerment.

        This ties into the reason I clicked with what Evan teaches.  We both believe that you can only change yourself, not other people.  If you can’t change the situation by changing yourself, then you can’t change the situation.

        Emily, the original said:

        “You’ve become friends with the person, shared personal details of your life, and then, out of the blue, he’s starts making all these sexual comments at you.”

        Despite what you just said, many people questioned my decision to ask women out when I barely knew them.

        As a side benefit, it tended to avoid the confusion that you describe.  Why did I chat the woman up?  I found her cute, and I wanted to see if she was interesting enough to ask out.

        That was the side benefit.  There were two primary benefits.  My success rate was higher, and my emotional investment in the outcome was much lower.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karl R,
          Despite what you just said, many people questioned my decision to ask women out when I barely knew them. As a side benefit, it tended to avoid the confusion that you describe.
          I think that’s a good way to handle it. Then both parties know what’s happening. Also, I think you were the one who saw a woman you liked who was being chatted up by another man and you went right up to her and asked her out. Women love that. You were a man with a plan. Bold, decisive, masculine.

  8. 8
    KK

    Excellent podcast.

    I like what he said about recognizing his own limiting beliefs. The million dollar question is:  how do you go about changing your limiting beliefs after you realize you have them?

    What I mean is, I know that I have some limiting beliefs which affect how I view the opposite sex. But…. those limiting beliefs get reinforced on a regular basis. So how does one go about truly changing how they view the opposite sex since I’m unable to lie to myself?

    1. 8.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi KK,

      What I mean is, I know that I have some limiting beliefs which affect how I view the opposite sex. But…. those limiting beliefs get reinforced on a regular basis. So how does one go about truly changing how they view the opposite sex since I’m unable to lie to myself?

      I have the same issue and I’m not sure what to do about it. I sometimes wonder if I subconsciously attract/am drawn to people who reinforce my beliefs. I’m trying to change those beliefs, telling myself when negative thoughts pop up, “Nope, not going there today. Nope, that’s negative.” I’m hoping, over time, if my energy changes, I will interact with the world differently. Sounds corny, I know.

    2. 8.2
      John

      Hi KK

      The best remedy is EMPATHY.

      Dr. Glover suggested buying a copy of “No More Mr. Nice Guy” as a gift for the man in your life who is on the slow train.

      I remember when I was in Spain in my 20s and I dated a lovely Spanish woman. I went to pick her up for a date and unbeknownst to me; I was under dressed by European standards. As we entered a taxi to go to dinner, she asked if we can stop somewhere before dinner. It was a men’s clothing store. She asked me to try on a dress shirt and some slacks. I tried them on. She told told me that that shirt and slacks made me look very handsome. Of course, I bought them and we went to dinner.

      About a week later I realized that she helped me, but did not rub my nose in my sloppy fashion. I smiled and thought she was the most wonderful woman I’d ever met.

    3. 8.3
      Jeremy

      Limiting beliefs are difficult and we all have them.  And then they are reinforced by confirmation bias.  Dr. Glover talks about his own limiting beliefs about women – how they can get sex whenever they want, how they have an overwhelming sense of entitlement, etc.

       

      I remember years ago when I was on the manosphere, I came to understand common arousal triggers for women – and I was shocked and disgusted by what I found.  I didn’t want to believe that women would be aroused by the things they were suggesting, yet I found that the suggestions worked.  It led me to become contemptuous of women and very negative about relationships and marriages in general.  But, as John wrote above, part of the way out of that hole is empathy, and the other part of the way out is understanding our own biases – that the logical models we create for ourselves only seem logical because we fail to include all the information.  Because while it may be true that a woman can get sex whenever she wants, she doesn’t want that kind of sex and it would make her feel bad about herself – so how important is that observation?  Because while it may be true that many women have some element of hypergamy in their psyche, that element may not be all that important in her overall psychological makeup and may be dwarfed by other things.  Because while we all have flaws (and some of those flaws are systematic rather than individual), we are all trying to do the best we can, some more successfully than others.

       

      And applied to men – while it may be true that men objectify women sexually in their fantasies, that element of objectification may not be all that important in the psychological makeup of the individual man.  While men might be, on average, less emotionally intelligent than women in some ways, many can learn and many have other qualities to make up for this.  We must eliminate our confirmation biases by actively searching for disconfirming evidence and giving that evidence at least as much weight as we do the confirming evidence – an act that is effortful, but pays dividends.  That is the only way to overcome limiting beliefs.

    4. 8.4
      S.

      Some say just recognizing the belief is enough, but I don’t think it is.  Maybe just challenge yourself?

      Limiting belief work is hard because at some point the person with the belief–you–has to change.  Dating coaches say this is empowering because you have control over you.  I dunno.  In theory, yes, but it’s hard to change.  And it’s hard to make change stick too. I’ll try one that is not a belief of mine, but let’s see:

      I have short hair.

      Limiting belief: Men aren’t attracted to women with short hair. I believe this in my soul.  When I was little I was overlooked.  No ponytails, no barrettes, didn’t feel feminine or cute.  Sigh.

      Challenge to belief:  Well, some men do like women with pixie cuts.  And some women are really cute with short hair, like Halle Berry.

      Tenacious limiting belief:  Men don’t like me with short hair.

      Challenge to belief: Well, there was that boy in high school, but he thought I was a tomboy.  Another guy in college but he was bi so I don’t know what that means for me, if anything.  When it’s fresh from the stylist it looks good but I can never replicate that.  And the guy I like at work just looks through me.  But men have liked me with it . . .

      Very tenacious limiting belief:  Men I like don’t like me with short hair.

      I’ll stop there.  It’s amusing in a way but sad in a way. I know it’s a lot of thinking but these thoughts take five minutes and are almost unconscious.  Even growing the hair wouldn’t change a thing because then the person would be attached to the hair as if that’s her only beauty.  The stamp of ‘men don’t like me’ or ‘I’m not attractive’ was ingrained in her long ago.  And the pictures of long, healthy flowing hair all over reinforces this belief daily.

      Maybe she should change her choice in men, maybe she needs a women’s group like Dr. Glover had a men’s group.  Maybe she needs to take a step back and see, well, who does meet this standard she’s weighing herself by?  What happened when she was little was real and happened.  But that was a long time ago and maybe that’s not all she is and someone has and will find her attractive like she is.  It’s not lying to herself. Many men do like long hair.  That’s a truth. But so what? She has short hair.  And some men do like it.  That’s true too.  She has to focus on that truth. Sometimes we just focus on what hurts us, not the part that’s positive.

      I don’t know any other way to do it but to change the narrative.  Change the tape in one’s head, change the story.  It also helps to be around people who tell you a different story, but the real work is within.

      (This comment was inspired by listening to five female co-workers today talk about their hair and none of them had good things to say about it.   I like my own hair but that took some work to love it.)

      1. 8.4.1
        KK

        I don’t think I articulated myself very well.

        Emily, I think you get where I’m coming from.

        The qualities I find attractive in men probably differ, at least slightly, from what other women find attractive in men. But the qualities I find frustrating or unattractive in men, seem to be pretty universal among women.

        For instance, when Mike Pence made the comment about not being alone with women out of respect for his wife, I was taken aback. I thought it was rare. But when Evan made a similar comment, I was shocked. And I’m not kidding or trying to be dramatic. It’s very difficult for me to empathize with something I’ve never experienced and have a hard time imagining. The only thing I can come close to comparing it to would be something like a Macy’s one day sale. I know if I spend more than an hour or two, I’ll end up buying things I don’t even need.

        What I’m trying to say is that men’s and women’s weaknesses seem to be very different. And for me, sexual weakness is unattractive. However, since most men seem to struggle in that area, I guess you either accept it or not, and if you choose to accept it, hopefully the man you choose will be aware of his weaknesses and love you enough to not risk your relationship.

        1. Emily, the original

          KK,

          What I’m trying to say is that men’s and women’s weaknesses seem to be very different. And for me, sexual weakness is unattractive. However, since most men seem to struggle in that area, I guess you either accept it or not, and if you choose to accept it, hopefully the man you choose will be aware of his weaknesses and love you enough to not risk your relationship.

          Oh, ok. I’ve witnessed the flip side of that. At my last job, I worked with and talked to a lot of men. Yes, some cheat but I think a majority of them don’t. Are they struggling with saying no to sexual offers? I don’t know for sure, but I think a lot of them liked the flirtation but didn’t want to go further with it, if for nothing else than it could blow up their home life and be very inconvenient if their wives found out and kicked them out.

        2. S.

          So to understand your point you’re saying that your limiting belief is that most men are subject to sexual weakness?

          (I would also like to say it’s not like a one day sale, I think.  It’s like not really needing to buy anything so why go to Macy’s if your needs are met with what you already have? Maybe a little of that is to prevent weakness, but it’s also just not needing to.)

          But that’s a digression. I really want to understand your original point.

        3. Chance

          I suspect that Pence’s practice has more to do with avoiding potential consequences  associated with false accusations.  I’ve taken the same approach in the past few years at work (never being alone with a woman).  But, there’s no way he could ever come out and say that because he would be heavily criticized.

           

          At any rate, when one considers men’s much stronger (and much less discriminate) sex drive in relation to women’s, most men want to have sex with probably 75% of the women they meet.  Men like Evan who take precautions in order to avoid straying are strong.  Not weak.

        4. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          At any rate, when one considers men’s much stronger (and much less discriminate) sex drive in relation to women’s, most men want to have sex with probably 75% of the women they meet.  Men like Evan who take precautions in order to avoid straying are strong.  Not weak.

          Are you being sarcastic? SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT!?

          To counter what Jeremy wrote: I remember years ago when I was on the manosphere, I came to understand common arousal triggers for women – and I was shocked and disgusted by what I found. I am disgusted by that. 

        5. KK

          Hi S,

          Dr. Glover said one of his limiting beliefs about women is that they are gold diggers. I was trying to share one of my limiting beliefs about men. I believe many men are slaves to their own sex drive. It controls them instead of them controlling it. My understanding of limiting beliefs is that they’re not necessarily untrue, but that they don’t serve you well if your goal is to be in a loving relationship with the opposite sex. Some women ARE gold diggers. Some men ARE slaves to their own sex drive.

          The question posed was how does one who acknowledges that they have limiting beliefs change them without denying reality.

          Read what Chance wrote. He’s one person. But if what he wrote is true… if men would willingly have sex with 75% of the women they meet, then count me out. I’d rather be alone than be one of the “lucky” 75%. No thanks.

        6. Emily, the original

          KK,

          Read what Chance wrote. He’s one person. But if what he wrote is true… if men would willingly have sex with 75% of the women they meet, then count me out. I’d rather be alone than be one of the “lucky” 75%. No thanks.

          Me, too.

        7. S.

          @KK

          Ah, thanks for the clarification.  Much easier to understand.

          I believe many men are slaves to their own sex drive. It controls them instead of them controlling it.

          I do think that testosterone drives men in a way that having kids drives women.  It’s really difficult to understand when the urge isn’t surging through your body.  And it doesn’t happen that way for every man or every woman.

          We socialize men that they should and can be attracted to many women and express that. If I didn’t have to worry about my feelings being hurt, someone thinking they are getting milk for free, pregnancy, or STDs, my life would be SO different.   I have heard of other cultures where this is true.  But it’s not ours.

          So I don’t blame men.   They have that socialization and testosterone.  So they put checks in place to fall in with what society dictates.

          The question posed was how does one who acknowledges that they have limiting beliefs change them without denying reality.

          Some men are slaves to their sex drive.  I would first rephrase it so there is no judgment. Some men have true difficulty managing their sex drives.  That is true.  It doesn’t mean it’s most men, right? And even if it’s difficult, why not just choose the men who can manage it?  An they key word is ‘some’. We can choose the men who don’t have such difficulty.  (They might have naturally lower libidos, though.)

          If men would willingly have sex with 75% of the women they meet, then count me out.

          Isn’t the point not what what a person would willingly do but what they actually do?  I’m not sure this means that men just want to have sex with the women or they actually do.  Is a man having serious difficulty managing his drive because he just feels the desire most of the time or is he having difficulty because he acts on it? I’d posit that if he feels the drive and isn’t acting then he’s controlling it to some degree.

          I think this because I’ve met two men who had so much sex.  No holds barred.  I don’t judge them for it,  honestly. (I didn’t date them, either. )  They weren’t about controls like that.  Now one could say if women turn the man down he’s not really controlling anything, the women are.  Hmm.   The two men I met?  They actually were more discriminating than you’d think.   There are some women that even they’d turn down.  So there is some control there.  I don’t know any man who’d have sex with any woman, anywhere, anyhow.  (I’m sure someone knows someone like this but I’d say it’s rare.) Even the fact that it’s not 100% of the women (if there doesn’t need to be attraction why not 100%?) is some semblance of control as well.

          I really can’t judge a person simply for feeling desire.  It’s like judging me for wanting to eat all the cake in the world.  I want to eat it. I love, love cake.  I would willing eat 75% of cakes out there, good or bad. I don’t care, it’s cake.  But I don’t eat it.  And I try not to be around it.  I don’t go into bakeries. Does this make me a weak person? Staying out of proximity is a way of controlling the desire.  I loved cake but my blood sugar didn’t.  But do I still want all the cake? Absofreakinglutely.  Every day, every single day. Evcn typing this makes me want a moist red velvet cupcake with cream cheese frosting. I know sex isn’t cake but the point is about discipline and I’m hungry. 🙂 Now if I actually ate cake every day three times a day for years on end, I agree that’s problematic.

          Sorry, getting distracted from your point.  🙂 But I hope something in there related to your original question about how.  The rephrasing, the emphasis on ‘some’,  and the distinction between wanting and doing change the belief for me,  wonder if you see something in those strategies.

        8. Sylvana

          KK, Emily,

          me three

        9. Theodora

          On the contrary, I think that if men have the sex drive and need of sexual variety they say they have (and which makes sense biologically, considering their evolutionary reproductive strategy and hormonal makeup), yet still most of them make the conscious, ethical choice for monogamy for the sake of their spouse, family and society/community at large, they are strong and worthy of respect, not weak.

          In the same vein as a person who likes alcohol very much and has permanent cravings for alcohol yet still chooses consciously every day to abstain is stronger and worthier of respect in this aspect than a person who doesn’t like alcohol very much anyway or enjoys it only occasionally.

        10. Emily, the original

          KK and Sylvana,

          If men would willingly have sex with 75% of the women they meet, then count me out. I’d rather be alone than be one of the “lucky” 75%. No thanks.

          What’s ironic is that women want to have sex with about 10 percent of the men they meet.

        11. Shaukat

          But if what he wrote is true… if men would willingly have sex with 75% of the women they meet, then count me out.

          Ha, 75% is pushing it. If you’re experiencing a brutal dry spell, are frustrated, and drunk, then maybe that sounds right. It’s very context dependent though, and most guys have some standards. Over 40% of the population is considered obese. I’d say it’s closer to 35% for most, myself included.

          At 75% Chance is basically saying that he would sleep with a 3/10. Doubt he’d actually pull the trigger on that:)

        12. S.

          @Emily, the original

          Is that 10% on first meeting, or over time?  I think other factors besides looks are at work for women to have attraction.   And men’s bodies aren’t as sexualized in our culture as women.  I honestly think culture and how women are raised as a lot to do with it.

        13. Theodora

          I think he wanted to say 75% of the non-fat, “conventionally attractive” 18-40 years old women. I have doubts he would like to have sex, in a hypothetical harem-world, with 75% of women over 40 yo or over size 10.

        14. Buck25

          SEVENTY FUVE PERCENT!?

          I get the feeling Chance is gonna regret that one, about like I did a certain post I made a couple years back!! 🙂

          At 75% Chance is basically saying he’d sleep with a 3/10. Doubt he’d actually pull the trigger on that 🙂

          So do I, Shaukat, so do I. I know damn well I wouldn’t! I’ve never been able to even get drunk enough to do that, even at my age!! Dry spell or not (and lately, I’ve had a few), there are some experiences a man can just do without…I’ve gone out with a few 3’s (mostly inadvertently), and while I know a man has to “kiss a lot of frogs” in this game, I can’t make myself even kiss one of those particular “frogettes”, much less sleep with one. You think that, ah, “selectivity”, may be the expression of my “feminine side”? Must be, cause I haven’t been able to locate it anywhere else, lol!

          I think he wanted to say 75% of the non-fat, “conventionally attractive”, 18-40 years old women. I have doubts he would like to sex, in a hypothetical harem-world, with 75% of the women over 40 yo or over size 10.

          @Theodora,

          Yeah, I think that’s more like what he really meant. If not, maybe he’s a lot more charitable than most women here give him credit for being.:)

          What’s ironic is that women want to have sex with about 10 percent of the men they meet.

          @Emily,

          Really?? You think the percentage is THAT high? Cause I figured you for holding out for the top 5%. 🙂 I’ve misjudged you; you’re not nearly as picky as I thought you were, lol!

          Y’all excuse me, but my sense of humor is a little warped today; couldn’t resist!

        15. Emily, the original

          S.,

          Is that 10% on first meeting, or over time?  I think other factors besides looks are at work for women to have attraction.  

          Ten percent on first meeting, and even that percentage is high. I’m one of those women who does not experience attraction growing over time. I can tell within a few seconds if I’m attracted.

          Something tells me Chance likes to drop a bomb, stand back and watch all the women get riled up.

        16. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          I’d say it’s closer to 35% for most, myself included.

          That’s one in three women. Depending on their life circumstances such as where they live and who they come into contact with daily, most women would feel like they fell into a Magic Mike movie if they found 1 in 3 men sexually appealing.

        17. Theodora

          Buck25,

          Yeah, if Chance literally meant what he said, he should be lauded as a generous, charitable soul.

          I mean, women here complain all the time that men punch above their weight, chase women out of their league, want to date supermodels and 10s, and suddenly a charitable soul says that he finds three quarters of womenfolk attractive, irrespective of their age and size, and he’s excoriated for it?

          You men can’t win. Find too many women attractive? You have no standards. Find few women attractive? You punch above your weight.

        18. S.

          @Emily, the original

          Ten percent on first meeting, and even that percentage is high. I’m one of those women who does not experience attraction growing over time. I can tell within a few seconds if I’m attracted.

          One day I’ll have to figure out attraction. I did once and then online dating came and really changed my perception of attraction to men.  Is attraction to a photo real attraction?  A photo is one moment in time.  Is attraction to someone you’ve never met IRL real attraction?

          Before the computer, I met men and boys and I got to know them first.  Sure, I assess their attractiveness.  But while I could be attracted to the hottest boy when I was 12, I also was attracted to the non-hot boy who was nicest to me.  Actually, I was attract to the non-hot boy first.  I always thought that really attractive men would be mean to me. That their personalities aren’t as developed because no one cares because they are handsome. So while I may feel something,  it’s pretty much dampened and cut short by those other feelings.  With a guy less hot, I can let go and relax and that attraction just blossoms. 🙂 Happens pretty quickly.  It’s funny how I could tell as a pre-teen who was nice and who was arrogant and mean in the first ten seconds.  Kids don’t put up a lot of filters at that age.  So I think it all happens for me in the first ten seconds, but it’s not looks alone.

          Something tells me Chance likes to drop a bomb, stand back and watch all the women get riled up.

          Makes good conversation.  I just was wondering if he meant simply wanting to sleep with the 75% women or actually sleeping with 75% if they were willing.  It makes a big difference.  I don’t judge people on fantasies.  We all have fantasies.

        19. Emily, the original

          Teddyora
          suddenly a charitable soul says that he finds three quarters of womenfolk attractive, irrespective of their age and size, and he’s excoriated for it?
          You men can’t win. Find too many women attractive? You have no standards. Find few women attractive? You punch above your weight.
          He wasn’t serious.

        20. Emily, the original

          S.,

          Is attraction to a photo real attraction?  A photo is one moment in time.  Is attraction to someone you’ve never met IRL real attraction?

          For me, personally, all I can tell from a photo is if someone is aesthetically handsome. I have to meet him in person to hear his voice, watch his body language, feel his energy.

          I just was wondering if he meant simply wanting to sleep with the 75% women or actually sleeping with 75% if they were willing.  It makes a big difference.  I don’t judge people on fantasies.  We all have fantasies.

          I don’t know about you but I dream in color, not black and white.

        21. Shaukat

          @Emily,

          Why in the world would you get riled up over a man saying that he’d be willing to sleep with 75% of women (especially if he’s clearly exaggerating)? It has nothing to do with you.

          You really don’t understand male sexuality. I also think you might benefit from lowering your standards just a tad.

        22. Jeremy

          Emily, you wrote “I am disgusted by that.”  Not sure what you’re disgusted about.  Some men here expressed that they are far less discriminating about whom they will have sex with than are women – this is COMMON among men, and has a lot to do with both biology and upbringing.  Yet you were extremely put off by it.  This is not unlike what I experienced years ago.  Men and women are different.  We assume we are alike in ways that we aren’t.  And when we discover our misconceptions, we get put off….until we realize that regardless of our misconceptions, people of the opposite sex can be good and not disappoint us.  I discovered that hypergamy just isn’t all that important in many women.  That although I might think it irrational for women to be attracted to male selfishness, that selfishness need not make up much of the overall picture to be effective.  KK will hopefully discover that although many men are tempted in ways that women are not, that temptation just isn’t all that important in their overall motivations for behavior, nor would they cheat if given the opportunity.

        23. SparklingEmerald

          Theodora said:  “Yeah, if Chance literally meant what he said, he should be lauded as a generous, charitable soul.”

          Actually on another post Chance said he would sleep with a woman who was fairly attractive even if he found her personality insufferable.  Yes, generous, charitable soul, showing “kindness” to the insufferable.

        24. Chance

          Wow, I’m surprised that my rather innocuous comment took us all down conversation street 🙂

           

          @Emily – I was being serious, and S. hit the nail on the head btw (that’s the commenter S., and not a expletive with a typo heh).  I think most men have the desire to sleep with the majority of women if the opportunity presents itself.  That doesn’t mean we spend our efforts trying to get with 75% of women, which is to my original point.  Oh, and it’s not ironic that most women wouldn’t be willing to sleep with more than 10% of men… that’s pretty much understood :).

           

          @Shaukat – damned right it’s context-dependent.  Coffee shop near university?  95% :).  However, I don’t think women in the 75th percentile of attractiveness would be a 3 on a scale of 1-to-10.  Men’s opinions of female attractiveness tend to be normally distributed, and depending on how fat the tails are (I swear this isn’t a pun), a 3 out of 10 would probably be somewhere in the 85th-95th percentile of attractiveness.

           

          @Theodora – excellent point regarding not being able to win.  I thought that I was simply restating what women say all the time…. “Men will sleep with anything”, “Men are pigs”, etc.

        25. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,
          Why in the world would you get riled up over a man saying that he’d be willing to sleep with 75% of women (especially if he’s clearly exaggerating)? It has nothing to do with you.
          It was an emotional reaction on my part. I forget that some men come on here for less than generous reasons.
          You really don’t understand male sexuality. I also think you might benefit from lowering your standards just a tad.
          I fully admit I don’t understand male sexuality. It makes absolutely no sense to me, but humor me and google “What is the percentage of men women are attracted to/find attractive?” I looked at a bunch of random sites. The percentages were as high as 35% and as low as 1%. I’d say the average percentage was about 10.

        26. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Not sure what you’re disgusted about.  Some men here expressed that they are far less discriminating about whom they will have sex with than are women – this is COMMON among men, and has a lot to do with both biology and upbringing.  Yet you were extremely put off by it.

          How could I not be disgusted by that? KK and Sylvana also were disgusted. You have written about your need for validation. For me, anyway, I need to feel someone is specifically picking me out, not that I happened to be standing there and breathing. Now you’re going to write that men are pickier when it comes to who they have a relationship with. I’m not sure there’s much of a difference. There are certainly women who behave similarly. They’re always involved with someone and won’t exit a current situation until they have someone else on the backburner. Their partners are there to serve their needs.  They aren’t appreciated as individual and autonomous.

        27. Chance

          Hi Emily – “For me, anyway, I need to feel someone is specifically picking me out,”

           

          I’m not trying to rile  you up.  Promise.  That said, the sentiment you’ve expressed in this quote above will make you (and any future partner of yours) miserable because what you desire is almost impossible.  It flies in the face of how men and women interact in the initial stages of getting to know each other.

           

          You know how you talk about you aren’t interested in the vast majority of men, and that you reject most men?  That’s pretty standard among women.  I would venture to guess that most women have the same experience as you.  If men were just as picky as women, no one would ever get together.  As a result, men cast a wide net, and they miss on a lot of targets, and they don’t (or shouldn’t) give much thought about their misses.  Almost no man can pick a woman out of the crowd and decide that she will be the one because the odds are she won’t be interested.

           

          Think of all the loving husbands you know.  The men who love their wives very deeply.  Think about all the seemingly happy people you see out in public.  In almost all cases, those women were not the man’s first choice, but rather their 3rd, 4th, or even 8th choices.  However, those men came to love their partner very deeply.  What Evan says is true…. men look for sex and find love.  If they decide to stay with you forever, then they found love with you.  They would have dumped you once the sex got boring if they didn’t love you.

        28. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          It flies in the face of how men and women interact in the initial stages of getting to know each other.

          Yes, I can see that. I also think men and women experience sex very differently.

           In almost all cases, those women were not the man’s first choice, but rather their 3rd, 4th, or even 8th choices.  However, those men came to love their partner very deeply. 

          What choice do they have? She’s the one who said yes when the others said no.

          I had a friend who was on match a few months ago. She said she felt as if many of the men who she went out on an initial first date with were asking her out for a second date because she was reasonably attractive and pleasant enough to be around. In other words, there wasn’t some strong attraction or shared worldview or intellectual connection. She didn’t have any really bad dates; most of them were, to use a term I believe Marika coined, very beige. She was surprised when they wanted to go out again. There didn’t seem to be any there there.

      2. 8.4.2
        S.

        @Emily, the original

        And yet, I’ve been very attracted in person to men I have never met in person! Granted, there are usually loads of phone calls first, but still.   So interesting.  But yes, the in-person person has to have that thing I can’t describe but he has to have it on the phone and in person.

        Back when I met people in real life it was simpler.  It was all there in the first minutes of meeting a person.  I think some people think those first minutes are about, “Will I sleep with this person?” For me it’s not that.  I think “Okay, he looks the same up close, NOW, is he kind, do I feel safe, how does he make me feel.”   The looks are just like basic, is he clean, does care for himself, do I like how he looks.  That’s all I need look-wise, but then, the very next seconds it’s about him. And if that second part is yes, to kind, safe, and I feel like I like him, we are good to go on my end.

        (In some contexts, like work or some spiritual events, I don’t register any attraction for anyone at all. Don’t think about when I meet people there.  I shut the part of me that assesses that down, like roadwork on the weekends. Orange cones, no access. It’s not nature, just a habit I developed.)

        1. Emily, the original

          S.,

          I think some people think those first minutes are about, “Will I sleep with this person?”

          That’s what I ask myself.

          For me it’s not that.  I think “Okay, he looks the same up close, NOW, is he kind, do I feel safe, how does he make me feel.” 

          Those are probably good questions to ask, but I think it may be difficult to determine if you feel safe with someone you just met. Of course, if the guy is giving off creeper vibes, that’s different, but creeper vibes are rare.

          In some contexts, like work or some spiritual events, I don’t register any attraction for anyone at all. Don’t think about when I meet people there.  I shut the part of me that assesses that down, 

          That’s how I feel at an event with my family. Nothing drains me of every sexual impulse faster …. 🙂

        2. S.

          Yeah, my mind isn’t on sex like that all the time.  Other than the basics I mentioned, which are physical but not in the way many people think, I try to connect with people on a human level first.

          Of course, if the guy is giving off creeper vibes, that’s different, but creeper vibes are rare.

          I get vibes. Opposite of creeper vibes. Just the ‘safe’ vibe.  Even with extroverts and men who are exciting.  I just know, but then again, I’m pretty intuitive.  I’m not talking about physical safety, though that too.  I think ‘is this guy going to say or do something to hurt my feelings’.  I can tell and I can’t say I’ve ever been wrong.  Maybe a few times when I ignored my intuition because of attraction.  I try not to ignore my intuition anymore.

          That’s how I feel at an event with my family.

          Sometimes the attraction meter is off, seriously.  I’m just wholly immersed in another vibe.  I’m glad someone else understands being in this mode.

        3. Emily, the original

          S.,

          Yeah, my mind isn’t on sex like that all the time. 

          My isn’t, either, but if I can tell a guy is flirting with me or I sense the internal pressure coming from him that I usually feel when someone is going to ask me out (maybe similar to your intuition), then I do ask myself how attracted I am to the person. Or if a small miracle happens and I inadvertently, throughout my day, stumble upon someone who I find very appealing … then I think about it. Or I guess if I’m watching a movie or maybe a music video and a famous man has that thing …  🙂

        4. S.

          My isn’t, either, but if I can tell a guy is flirting with me or I sense the internal pressure coming from him that I usually feel when someone is going to ask me out (maybe similar to your intuition), then I do ask myself how attracted I am to the person.

          Yet, we were talking about your 10% in the first minutes, no?  After an entire date, that’s different. I know for sure how attracted I am by then.  But the first few minutes I don’t usually sense any pressure about a next date.

          I don’t think about sex much during the date, I’m usually focused on me, and if I’m being my best self.  I’m not thinking about anyone unclothed.  But I do know by the end if I want the guy to ever kiss me.

          I just don’t see someone in real life for the first time and think, boom, I want sex with this person.  Nah.  Not even, boom, I want to kiss this person.  Just the basics about grooming and if I like his look and then personality on the heels of that.  It’s just five minutes.  Wanting-to-have-sex attraction takes bit longer than that for me.  Usually a few hours later and thinking about it all over again.  If they call or send me an e-mail afterward that helps with attraction too.

        5. Emily, the original

          But the first few minutes I don’t usually sense any pressure about a next date.

          I meant  that, after meeting irl at, for example, a party, I can feel a pressure or nervousness (I’m not sure how else to describe it) in him in trying to read me to see if he should ask me out or for my number. I can usually tell when a man is chatting with me or chatting me up.

            After an entire date, that’s different. I know for sure how attracted I am by then.  

          I can tell if I’m more attracted after the first date but that’s an attraction that grew from the initial attraction.

          I just don’t see someone in real life for the first time and think, boom, I want sex with this person.  Nah.  Not even, boom, I want to kiss this person.  

          I’m not necessarily thinking, “I want to do this guy.” It’s more a “Damn, who is that?” or maybe a lower level of “Isn’t he a little cutie?”It’s a charge. I can feel it.

          There have been a few times when a man I like and enjoy talking to but don’t necessarily feel attraction for suddenly says or does something and I think, “Oh, that was interesting.” I was at a cast party, in a hot tub, with other people from the show and another actor jumped in with no bathing suit! It didn’t take me to “I want to do this guy.” But I did think he was bold. 

        6. S.

          I’m not necessarily thinking, “I want to do this guy.” It’s more a “Damn, who is that?” or maybe a lower level of “Isn’t he a little cutie?”It’s a charge. I can feel it.

          Exactly.  I’m not exactly thinking, ‘let’s get nekkid!’  Though no-suit guy wasn’t leaving anything to the imagination, lol.

          I like to think he just forgot a suit and didn’t want to miss the tub. 🙂 Still, it was a bold move if everyone else has a suit on.

          There have been a few times when a man I like and enjoy talking to but don’t necessarily feel attraction for suddenly says or does something and I think, “Oh, that was interesting.”

          Does that thought lead to attraction?

        7. Emily, the original

          S.,
          I like to think he just forgot a suit and didn’t want to miss the tub. 🙂 Still, it was a bold move if everyone else has a suit on.
          The availability of the hot tub was a surprise. I borrowed a suit from the hostess of the party. This guy made a big production of it. Kind of divebombed in. It was funny.
          Does that thought lead to attraction?
          Idk the guy I mentioned was married. I’m waiting for a bold move from a single guy!  🙂

      3. 8.4.3
        Theodora

        SparklingEmerald,

        what Chance said about sleeping with the insufferable attractive woman is exactly what many women said on various threads on this blog about hooking-up with a man. Namely, that even when they know very well that he is a jerk, “a little bit sleazy” and no relationship material, they would still sleep with him for various reasons: because he’s hot, to scratch an itch after a long dry spell, for validation, to get over an ex after a bad break up, sometimes they had no idea why they got along with it, etc.

        So, this is exactly the same thing as what “villain” Chance said. Hence, I don’t understand the moral high ground and feelings of “disgust” for men doing exactly the same thing as many women admit doing.

        It seems the moral high ground comes merely from a percentage. “Look, I am so selective and sophisticated because I would sleep with maybe only 10% of men, while you vulgar, crass, disgusting beings would sleep with 35% or 75% of women”. Well, that’s just a matter of quantity, not of deep personal principles to justify the moral high ground.

        Finally, of course I was being tongue-in-cheek when I called Chance charitable and generous. Because nobody wants to have sex or not, to date or not out of charity. We are all doing it (or not) to get something for ourselves. One more reason why nobody has the moral high ground in this aspect.

  9. 9
    Jeremy

    Hi Mrs. Happy.  You wrote, “ Love isn’t measured by the ability to mindread.”  This is a bit of a blanket statement and it sounds very logical – in fact, I’ve heard it said by many people as a truism.  But I think it is very important to distinguish what exactly we mean by “mindread,” because that will determine how accurate your statement is.  Consider that there are 2 ways to interpret “mindreading,” – let us call them Type 1 mindreading and Type 2.

     

    Type 1 mindreading is the notion that if our partner loved us, they would do a certain amount of detective work on their own volition, to determine very specific details about what we want – and thereby demonstrate their love.  Example – “If he loved me, he’d know I want a 2.5 carat princess cut diamond on a Tiffany-style platinum band for my engagement ring.  All he’d have to do to discover that is to ask some of my friends!  The fact that he bought me a 1 carat round cut diamond on a 14K white gold band – he doesn’t care about me at all!”  Not reasonable, I’d agree.  If she really wants something specific and detailed that would require him to do detective work, she’d be much better off asking him (and being open to being refused).

     

    Type 2 mindreading, to contrast, is not something specific that requires detective work.  Rather, it is simply applying something we already know (or ought to know).  Example – my wife likes backrubs, especially after hard days.  I know this because I’ve been married to her for 13 years, and would be a blind fool not to know it.  Application – wife comes home from work sighing heavily.  Tells me she had a hard day.  I say “sorry to hear that, honey,” and return to watching my show.  She looks at me sadly, shakes her head a bit, and wanders off.  In her mind she thinks – he knows I had a bad day, knows I like backrubs, why isn’t he DOING it.  Now, is she expecting me to be a mind-reader?  In a Type-2 sense, I suppose.  But is that unreasonable?  Should she have to ask?  Would it not indeed be a sign of love if I knew her well enough and considered her situation and simply gave her what I KNOW she likes?

     

    Back to your statement, Mrs. Happy, ” Love isn’t measured by the ability to mindread.”  In a Type 1 sense, I agree with you totally.  In a Type 2 sense I disagree totally – in fact, love is quite well measured by the ability to mindread in a Type 2 sense……unless your partner is someone who totally lacks empathy or intuitiveness.

    1. 9.1
      Nissa

      Jeremy,

      What would be even more effective for your wife as an individual would be for her to walk up to you and ask, “Honey, would you rub my back? I’ve had a hard day”. That would be owning her own desires, instead of making you responsible for her. By asking, she would be taking responsibility for meeting her own needs. Then if you can give her the back rub, great. If not, it’s still ok, because you aren’t responsible for her needs – she is. You are not a bad person for saying no. She has many other options for meeting that need to feel better after a hard day – go to a massage person, talk to her best friend on the phone, pet the dog, take a walk, etc. Notice how none of those things are contingent on another specific person, yet her needs are still being met?

      That type 2 mindreading is unreasonable because it makes person A responsible for person B’s feelings. That’s like saying, if person A is gay, and it makes person B uncomfortable, then person A needs to change their sexuality. It’s not person A’s responsibility to do, be or act differently in order to make person B comfortable or happy. Is it nice? Yes, it’s nice. If person A can offer it to person B without compromising their essential self, then great. But requiring it is a violation of healthy boundaries.

    2. 9.2
      Emily, the original

      Jeremy,

      In her mind she thinks – he knows I had a bad day, knows I like backrubs, why isn’t he DOING it.  Now, is she expecting me to be a mind-reader?  In a Type-2 sense, I suppose.  But is that unreasonable?  Should she have to ask?  Would it not indeed be a sign of love if I knew her well enough and considered her situation and simply gave her what I KNOW she likes?

      All of this mind reading sound like a lot of work. Yes, she should ask. Maybe you’re tired. Maybe you’re in the middle of something. Maybe YOU had a bad day and need downtime. You’re not giving her the backrub could have nothing to do with the fact that you know she likes them. All of this could be solved with a very simple — Could you give me a back rub?

      1. 9.2.1
        Jeremy

        Hmm, well then, if you are in a relationship with a man where you are losing attraction because he isn’t being “his own man,” should you ask him to please be his own man?  Or do you want someone who simply already IS his own man, because your asking him would reduce your attraction, and his being his own man would only be his following your instructions?  The question is somewhat rhetorical and only serves to illustrate the point – there are definitely times and situations where it is appropriate to ask for what you want.  But there are other times when asking defeats the purpose, depending on the wants and needs of the partner.

         

        Oh, and BTW in a marriage, each person is DEFINITELY responsible for the emotional state and needs of the other.  Otherwise why are you married?  Obviously there are limits to this, but a marriage isn’t 2 individuals, it is an emotional partnership with a certain degree of inherent co-dependence.  One of my favourite parts of “Attached” by Amir and Heller is their description of how the term codependence has become a dirty word in relationships, when human beings have evolved to need a certain degree of it in our relationships.

        1. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Hmm, well then, if you are in a relationship with a man where you are losing attraction because he isn’t being “his own man,” should you ask him to please be his own man?  Or do you want someone who simply already IS his own man, because your asking him would reduce your attraction, and his being his own man would only be his following your instructions? 

          I don’t think that asking someone to be his own man would work. He either is or he isn’t. I guess I just wouldn’t be compatible with someone who didn’t want me to ask. I would start to feel drained by what I would perceive as a lack of assertiveness and game playing.

        2. Jeremy

          I agree, Emily.  And a person who is somewhat giving and empathetic also (IMHO) often needs someone capable of the same.  It’s not that I don’t agree with Evan or you or Nissa or Karl that people need to learn to speak up – I totally agree.  But sometimes what you want is an effort – whatever that effort might result in – without having to ask for it.  And needing that occasionally vs being able to provide it occasionally is part of compatibility IMHO.

        3. Nissa

          Jeremy,

          If I had chosen poorly or without enough attention to what I really wanted in a relationship,? Yes, I would ask for him to be his own man. I would tell him – not so much that I was losing attraction, because men almost never respond well to that information – but what I wanted from him. That I wanted him to want me, to accept me, to enjoy me – and all the ways that he could do that. It’s hot – haven’t you seen the porn that starts with a woman saying to a man, “You know what I want? I want you to grab me and kiss me passionately, to act like you are so crazed by desire for me that you can’t control yourself….” Obviously it’s a dramatic representation, but it’s a reflection of how much we want to see our partner experience pleasure that was generated by us.

          Then it would be up to him. If he failed to be his own man, I’d already be losing attraction, so there wouldn’t be anything left to lose by asking him. He wouldn’t be ‘following instructions’, he’d be accountable for his part of the relationship – a quality that in itself makes him more of his own man, and thus more attractive.

          Person A’s job is to say what he or she wants. Person B’s job is to offer as much of that (comfort, sex, love, kindness, help) as possible in a way that honors person B’s wants and needs. Person B is NOT responsible for the essential wellbeing of person A – that’s person A’s job, always. If person A expects person B to offer parts of person B’s self at the expense of his or her own soul or essential self – that’s a person who is ok with hurting you to get their own needs met. And that’s not a healthy boundary. Healthy boundaries mean accepting the other person’s definition of what they can offer – and if you can’t, to walk away instead of torturing that person by insisting they change so you can be happy.

        4. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          Obviously it’s a dramatic representation, but it’s a reflection of how much we want to see our partner experience pleasure that was generated by us.

          From what I’ve read, this is a common fantasy for women. To have a man overwhelmed by desire for her. It takes a confident man to deliver that.

           

        5. Marika

          Jeremy 

          Just wanted to chime in to say I completely understand what you mean. And I agree. Marriage is different to dating. It’s important to be very attuned to the other person to make it work.

          Luckily I’m naturally really good at reading people and figuring out what they want. The best moments of my marriage were doing thoughtful things that made the other person almost cry tears of happiness. I’ll never forget buying my ex a boating licence for his birthday, because he had spoken about how much he wanted to learn to sail. He actually had tears in his eyes opening the package. That’s priceless.

          If he’d had to ask…we’d both have missed out on that wonderful moment.

        6. Nissa

          Isn’t that a man’s fantasy, too? To have a woman be into him, to take the initiative, to tell him she wants him? I admit I’m assuming this a bit as I view porn as being more male oriented.

        7. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          Isn’t that a man’s fantasy, too? To have a woman be into him, to take the initiative, 

          Idk. We’ve had male posters on here say they wanted to be the dominate person in the bedroom.

           to tell him she wants him? 

          ‘Tis better to show than to tell.  🙂

      2. 9.2.2
        Nissa

        Emily TO,

        Now that I think about it, I think you are right. I assumed at the time that it was just designed to appeal to a man’s desire to have a woman that was clearly interested in him and willing to do anything sexually – and therefore a man’s fantasy – similar to how many men here say they want a woman (any woman?) that initiates. I think you are right that it is more a woman’s fantasy that he wants her specifically.

        1. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          I think you are right that it is more a woman’s fantasy that he wants her specifically.

          I agree. If he is down to do you or the girl standing next to you or behind you … it means nothing.

    3. 9.3
      Mrs Happy

      When I hear “good marriages are about communication” I think – “rubbish”, because it is my belief that most spouses know what their partner wants, but the average person vacillates on wanting to provide those spoken (or unspoken) wants, because everyone is somewhat selfish.  E.g. “I know my wife wants me to stay home all weekend and care for the kids and do 10 hours of housework, but I’ve been working hard all week, so I’m going out Friday night for drinks with mates then playing golf all day Saturday”, or “I know my husband would like sex every night this week, but I’m tired and don’t want sex at all, so I will avoid all his initiating-sex moves all week”.

      I think that a marriage is good for each spouse when they are married to someone who gives when asked or not, considers their spouse’s needs, and sometimes provides those needs or requests.  A marriage is dreadful if you are married to a selfish person who rarely meets your needs.

      But this “read my mind I want a backrub” blows my logic completely out of the water. Because I am basing my “good relationships aren’t about communication but are about not being selfish” premise on what is perhaps too high a default bar for adequate communication – I have been assuming levels of clear communication that just clearly do not exist, if these ‘soup and backrub non-requests but requests’ are the norm.

      If I want a shoulder massage I say to my husband “my neck hurts, can you give me a shoulder massage?”. If I’m sick and want soup, I say to him, “I have a sore throat, can you heat me up a tin of tomato soup?”. I do not flounce around hoping he will have enough theory of mind and emotional intelligence and mindreading skills and intuition, to ascertain that at this particular moment, I need a shoulder rub, or tomato soup, a piece of brownie, or the collected works of Proust.  This is not to say a spouse who knows me can’t offer these things sometimes.

      I cannot imagine the irritation involved in being married to someone who wanted me to be responsible for correctly guessing what they were thinking then providing it, instead of just asking for it.

      1. 9.3.1
        AdaGrace

        To me, “Type 2 mindreading” seems like plain old “thoughtfulness” and “putting effort into thinking about the other person without having to be reminded they exist.”

        Example: My ex-husband would occasionally bring me my favorite snack food when I was preparing to stay up late to work on a project.  However, my snack food preferences change from time to time.

        At times when he wasn’t aware of the change and brought my previous favorite, I made the same happy, appreciative sounds and ate what he brought anyway, because I felt just as pleased by the gesture as by what he’d brought me, and I didn’t want to detract from *his* pleasure in doing what he thought would please me.  Starting a few days later (so it wouldn’t look like I didn’t appreciate what he did), I’d make sure to be seen with the new, preferred snack food from time to time — I knew he/d eventually pick up on this.  But — even if he didn’t pick up on the new food, it was still the gesture that was the big deal to me… unless I had an strong dislike for what he brought me (or was allergic), it would have tasted like the best thing ever in the moment.

        Same thing with his tendency to bring me a mathematical puzzle or game when I was down.  It’s not that I expected him to read my mind, it’s that he put effort into understanding the *kinds* of things I liked, and that he was sufficiently invested in our relationship that seeing me happy made *him* happy.  As long as he was taking the initiative and making the effort, it would have been impossible for him to “get it wrong.”  (In retrospect, I’m pretty sure “your thoughtful gesture is always right” led to a lot more thoughtful gestures)

        If I needed something reasonable and he didn’t happen to offer it to me, then yeah, just asking him worked too… same symbol, different meaning, though.

      2. 9.3.2
        Jeremy

        Again, Mrs. Happy, there is a huge difference between wanting someone to constantly read your mind vs hoping that they know your preferences somewhat after 15 years of marriage.  Do you really believe that offering one’s spouse an unsolicited backrub after a hard day’s work is unreasonable – to offer or to wish for?  That being made a cup of soup when ill is something that you should have to ask for?  That it is more reasonable for the spouse to sit on their ass and do nothing when you’re sick until you get up and ask them for something?   It is one thing if your spouse makes you soup and you prefer a sandwich – be appreciative, and voice your preference for next time.  But a spouse who knows you’re sick and sits around watching tv waiting for you to ask for something is, IMHO, playing power games as you describe tacitly in your first paragraph.

        1. Mrs Happy

          Jeremy,

          you and I both make valid points.

          My reading of your initial example was of a husband who wouldn’t contribute even an idea or preference for his own birthday celebration.  For me to plan + execute a big party with my husband’s friends + family would take about 15-20 hours of mental, organising, and practical work, + that’s before I’ve worked paid work hours to pay for it.  If he doesn’t want that, I want to know now, before I plan the big party and add to my workload all for little gain for him. I read your example dynamic, as her practically begging for some guidance or a hint of what he’d prefer for his 40th birthday. Maybe she’s about to do 20-30 hours of work for him and his birthday – all she is asking is five seconds work via a reply from him – “I’d prefer x to y”.

          I don’t like people expecting me to guess what they want because in my experience, these tend to be the types of people who whine or get angry and huff about, when I don’t guess correctly.  Such people irritate me.  I find them emotionally immature.  They measure love in ways I am impatient with; I don’t have these people in my life. “You should just know, if you love me” grates. I prefer straight talking and very clear communication in my romantic relationships and friendships. I get this, because I avoid people who do otherwise.

          Sure I’d offer to make soup when not asked, but if my partner wants soup and I haven’t offered, I don’t want him flouncing off with attitude because I didn’t “guess”. (Thankfully my hubby is too masculine to flounce, but you understand my point; plus, I like the work flounce.)

          I am thoughtful. My husband and friends are thoughtful. We all do things for each other. I wouldn’t have married a man who sat around on his bottom all night while I was ill.  I don’t get upset if others haven’t read my mind.  I expect people close to me to maintain emotional equilibrium if I don’t read their mind, and to ask for something if it is important to them.  It is reasonable to offer or accept a backrub after a hard day. It’s not reasonable to get angry if someone doesn’t guess you’d like one, or guesses but doesn’t give you a rub.  Even within a marriage, each adult should be responsible for their own emotional attitude and health.

          My 1st paragraph at 9.3 isn’t about power games. It’s just describing how people do what they want to do, a lot.  I really don’t think there is as much jostling for so-called power in long term relationships as people think or comment about in this blog, it has literally never been my experience, and I’ve rarely been out of a romantic relationship over the last 30 years.  I believe many people will just do the minimum as often as they can; it’s about laziness, not power, a lot of the time.

           

        2. Jeremy

          Mrs. Happy, agreed about both points being valid.  I think that the distinguishing line between reasonable and unreasonable is the difference between details and concepts.  If my wife is sick and I bring her soup without her asking and she gets upset because if I loved her I’d know that she wants tea instead of soup, that’s pretty ridiculous – you want something specific, ask for it.  But if she is sick and hopes I would show love for her by taking care of her and bringing her SOMETHING – and that something is not specific, but ideally would be something I’ve generally learned she likes over the years, as Ada Grace described in her comment – that would be reasonable.  The outcome defines the reasonability IMHO – getting huffy because the partner guessed wrong shows entitlement.  Getting happy because they made a good effort is reasonable.

           

          Oh, and regarding power vs laziness – I guess I like to look at root motivations.  Sure, a wife might be stuck doing household chores on a Sunday because the husband is lazily watching football.  But she doesn’t get upset because he is lazy, she gets upset (ultimately) because she feels at a power disadvantage, and will struggle to set the balance right, even though in her mind she won’t consciously think about power but rather about laziness.  The women you know who no longer want sex with their husbands because they are busy and don’t get anything out of it – they are playing power games, even though they aren’t conscious of it.  They are walking a line to maintain as much power as they can and give their husbands as little as they can, but still give them enough to stay married.  Little do they know that if their husbands took back a bit of power, their wives’ sex drives might actually recover somewhat.

           

        3. Marika

          Completely agree, Jeremy.

        4. Mrs Happy

          Jeremy,

          I disagree with what you say about power (but like that you say it – because difference of opinion is stimulating; you make me wonder if I could be wrong. Just briefly.).

          Men jostle for power and position in any interaction with other men.  Women just don’t do that so often, especially in their close relationships.  My friends that don’t have sex, just don’t want sex.  Their libido has all but evaporated. Power really does not come into it.  Men are all about the “power” and “sex as a weapon”.  That’s just not how a woman’s mind usually works.

        5. Jeremy

          Mrs Happy, first of all I enjoy our discussions – even when I disagree with you.  Like now 🙂

           

          As much as men like to jostle for power overtly, women do so covertly and (IME) are FAR more sensitive to power balances than men, even though they often aren’t conscious of what they are sensing.  Some observations of mine (and obviously things might differ in your circles, but it sounds like your circles and mine are somewhat alike, though in a different country):  Women tend to make friends with those who are fairly equal to them in power.  Power being SES, status, beauty, the things by which they judge their success in life.  A woman will be willing to be friends with another woman who is lesser in power, but not greater.  If placed in a social situation with a woman of greater power, she will often find reasons why that woman is not worthy of friendship (she is a princess, stuck-up, has bad values, etc).  Such a woman will not be conscious of the power-jockeying, she will just quietly establish her group of friends….most of whom are relatively equal or lesser in power to herself.

           

          Another observation: Women are most comfortable with those who are equal to them in power (as I wrote above), but more attracted to men who are power +1.  Power is for arousal, equality in power is for comfort.  So she will be attracted to a man who is more powerful, then once with such a man she will strive to equalize her power with him (for her comfort), not realizing that the more she equalizes the power, the less aroused by him she will be.  None of this occurs on a conscious level.

           

          Another observation:  The women you know who used to like sex but now have lost their desire – I don’t know them, but I know lots of women just like them.  They will TELL you (and themselves) that the reason is because their kids and their life exhausts them, or because their hormones have changed.  But the real reason is because they no longer “get” anything from having sex.  And if they don’t “get” anything from it, they wonder why they should have to do it – even though they know it was part of the deal of getting married and that they are making their husbands miserable.  This. Is. A. Power. Game.  The more the husband wants sex and the less the wife wants it, the more powerful she feels – and often wants that power to redress other perceived power imbalances in the marriage.  And the less power she perceives her husband to have (because she holds the cards to power through her sexual refusal), the less aroused by her husband she will be, and the less she will want to have sex with him, no matter how comfortable she feels with him.

           

          None of these examples occur on a conscious level.  They are all subconscious.  And they are ALL about power.

        6. Nissa

          I have to throw my hat into the ring with Mrs Happy on this one.

          If a woman no longer wants sex, the honest thing to do is to renegotiate the marriage contract for her new desire (a low or no sex marriage) or get out. It’s true, most women don’t seem very impressed  with their husbands, but they do seem to see them as adequate.

          I am more likely to ascribe what Jeremy is calling power struggles to covert contracts. A woman who is angry at a husband who is sitting watching tv, wouldn’t care, if the husband had accomplished all the tasks he promised to do. If the woman has decided he needs to do more but the negotiated amount of work was fair, that’s on her for negotiating badly or not honestly. If she’s mad because he finished first and she’s still going, that just seems bitchy. If he’s sitting there long enough for her to see that he is not accomplishing what he agreed to accomplish, he’s being a jerk.

          That all boils down to appropriate boundaries. If a person B agrees to do/be/accept something and doesn’t, then it bounces back to person A to hold the boundary and insist person B honor the agreement. If the boundary is ignored or disrespected by person B consistently, that’s a relationship that’s no longer working and should be dissolved by person A, because that’s the very foundation of the relationship. The root motivation is essentially that people want what they have been promised.

          A woman who is withholding sex probably feels that her husband is refusing to give her something he promised in some way. That could be his time, his energy, his attention, or his real self. Real self gets my vote, because that would definitely create the ‘I’m doing the minimum’ response that Jeremy is talking about. I’ve only seen that when one spouse is being passive-aggressive, refusing to own his own wants and then getting angry when they aren’t provided.

           

        7. Jeremy

          Nissa, I completely agree with everything you wrote.  And all that is about power.  Contracts, whether overt or covert are all about ascribing power and responsibility.

  10. 10
    Nikki

    This is one of The most enlightening LoveU podcasts I’ve listened to so far, Thank you so much for your 100% accurate description of male-types. Dr Glover, this is SOO helpful in helping me to understand the experiences I’ve had of men over the years, and it’s really shed some light xx

     

  11. 11
    Tron Swanson

    I’m one of those dreaded “resentful nice guys”. I’d like to add a little more about why this phenomenon exists.

    When I was younger, niceness/fake friendship was the only realistic strategy available to me. My personality traits or lack of interest ruled out all the others. I have zero social skills, zero masculine energy, my sensitive nature makes me extremely risk-averse, and I lack the physical and mental traits that women are generally attracted to: ambition, height, aggressiveness, etc. The ironic thing is, I’m happy with the way I am, and I hoped to find a woman who would love and accept me for who I was. Obviously, that didn’t happen. (Also, I have no interest in getting married or having kids, which made it even more of an uphill battle.)

    Twenty years later, not much has changed, but I’m no longer willing to engage in that sort of deception or game-playing. Granted, I no longer think women are worth the effort, but that’s another subject. I’ve accepted that most women aren’t turned on by men like me. Oh, I’m surprisingly good-looking, I have an interesting personality, I’m stable, and I treat people well. That was enough for a few women to love me and want to marry me, and for the occasional single mom to consider settling for. But it isn’t what they really want.

    If everyone–myself included–had been more honest, back then, things would have been…easier, if not less painful. Women told me (and still tell me) that they want a modern man who’s in tune with his emotions…only to go after the usual alpha suspects, instead. Guys who are just civilized enough to create some plausible deniability. When talking with Cosmo-reading friends and coworkers, they’ll market their guy as being enlightened and egalitarian…it’s just a coincidence that he’s six foot something and looks and acts like a high-functioning caveman. All the stuff that contradicts the image these women are presenting, well, it can be explained away or outright ignored. People get what they want first, and cover themselves socially/culturally second.

    Two final points: there’s a difference between limiting beliefs and limits, and backbone has consequences. You can tell someone to man up, believe in themselves, whatever, and nine out of ten will still fail, because we ultimately have very little control over our own lives. Also, I became a nice guy who stood up for himself…and it screwed with my life, because women have options, and there’s a long line of guys ready to treat them like princesses. It didn’t cause them to suddenly respect me, it caused them to move on to guys they liked more.

    1. 11.1
      Karl R

      Tron Swanson said:

      “I’ve accepted that most women aren’t turned on by men like me. Oh, I’m surprisingly good-looking, I have an interesting personality, I’m stable, and I treat people well.”

      So … you’re much better looking than me, and you’re doing at least as well in the other three categories.

      Tron Swanson said:

      “we ultimately have very little control over our own lives.”

      Okay.  Name one person who has more control over your life than you do.

      You’re the person who has the most control over your life, but you find it more comforting to blame a nebulous group of other people, rather than take personal responsibility for your own life.

      Tron Swanson said:

      “When I was younger, niceness/fake friendship was the only realistic strategy available to me. My personality traits or lack of interest ruled out all the others. I have zero social skills, zero masculine energy, my sensitive nature makes me extremely risk-averse, and I lack the physical and mental traits that women are generally attracted to: ambition, height, aggressiveness, etc.”

      Social skills can be learned.  Masculine energy (or faking it, at least) can be learned.  You can learn to overcome risk aversion.  You’ve conflated aggression and assertiveness (both of which can be learned, but assertiveness is the one which will benefit you).

      I’m just a hair over average height, and nobody has ever claimed that I was ambitious.  Many men shorter than me (like Evan) are married.  A large number of unambitious men are too.

      Tron Swanson said:

      “If everyone–myself included–had been more honest, back then, things would have been…easier, if not less painful.”

      Well, you can’t change the way you were back then, and you can’t change the way other people are (or were), but you can start being more honest right now.

      Tron Swanson said:

      “Also, I became a nice guy who stood up for himself…and it screwed with my life, because women have options, and there’s a long line of guys ready to treat them like princesses.”

      Be honest with yourself.  You weren’t a nice guy then, and you aren’t one now.  It was a ploy to get what you wanted.

      You are so dishonest with yourself that you’ve failed to recognize that your arguments lack internal consistency.  You’re trying to claim that you failed because “there’s a long line of guys ready to treat [women] like princesses,” but you’re also claiming that women “market their guy as being enlightened and egalitarian…it’s just a coincidence that he’s six foot something and looks and acts like a high-functioning caveman.”

      Really?

      Are you trying to convince everyone (you, me, all the women and men on this blog) that women are drawn to cavemen … and to the men who treat them as princesses … but they’re not drawn to any of the men between these two extremes?

       

      Why this phenomenon exists:

      You touched upon the right ideas … without ever getting them quite right.  When we’re young, society does a poor job of teaching the skills that would help us succeed: social skills, assertiveness, risk taking, and resilience in the face of failure.  If we’re not the lucky ones who start out with those skills, we have to stumble into them, and work far harder to develop them, much later in life.

      I can sympathize/empathize with anyone who hears the advice Robert Glover, Jacob Peterson, or Evan has to offer “beta” men and thinks, “I wish I had known that when I was a teenager.”

      I have zero sympathy for any so called “nice guy” who hears the same advice, refuses to adopt it, and instead chooses to blame women for his continuing problems.

      You might not be responsible for not being exposed to good information when you were younger, but you’re completely responsible for your refusal to learn good information when you’re exposed to it now.

      1. 11.1.2
        Tron Swanson

        In this era of massive global corporations and incomprehensibly-vast social forces, personal responsibility is an amusing, antiquated concept. Look, I get it–successful people want to believe that most/all of their success came from themselves, and not simple luck. The right time, the right place, the right gender, the right race, etc. Of course I can’t name an individual with more control over my life than me…but we could all name huge groups and factions who could make or break our world (and thus us). For instance, I’m not religious, but religion has greatly impacted my life. I wasn’t around in the sixties, but that decade has definitely influenced my love life. I had/have no control over things like that. But it’s apparently my fault for not “pulling myself up by my bootstraps” and magically creating a sexual marketplace where men like me are valued.

        I don’t want to be traditionally masculine, or pretend to be. I don’t want to take risks. I don’t want to be social. If that means I can’t get sex, so be it. I’d rather be me, and be happy, than do stuff I don’t want to do. If you think that the solution for a “beta male” like me is to become alpha, or at least a little alpha…no thanks. I’m going to let you in on a little secret: you may think I dislike women, but I dislike men much more.

        I was a nice guy long before I cared about sex, and I’m still a pretty nice guy now. I admit, I used that pre-existing niceness as a ploy, but I’ve stopped that.

        Sure, there are men between the two extremes…but not as many as you’d think. If they’re successful with women, it’s likely because of inborn traits that can’t be learned.

        Have fun working hard and being responsible or whatever, I’ll be busy enjoying my life and saving my energy for myself.

        1. Karl R

          Tron Swanson said:

          “I’d rather be me, and be happy, than do stuff I don’t want to do.”

          OMFG, this is hilarious.

          You’re trying to claim that you’re “happy”.

          Tron, in your own words:

          You have no control over your life.

          Your life has been controlled by nefarious forces such as huge groups, factions, massive global corporations, religion, and the 1960s.

          You’re unwilling to take risks, regardless of the reward.

          You can’t get sex.

          You constantly come to this blog and complain about the unfairness of it all.

          [This would be enough to make your statement laughable, but there’s more]

          You dislike women.

          You dislike men even more.

          You’re antisocial.

          Tron,

          Not only do the last three demonstrate that you’re not happy, they also demonstrate that you’re not a nice guy.  Misanthropy is not a virtue.

          If you want to spend your life being an unhappy misanthrope, go ahead.  If you want to justify your decision by claiming that you’re “being you”.  That’s fine.

          But please, at least develop the self-awareness to realize that your attempts to rationalize, explain, justify, and get people to agree with and/or sympathize with your self-chosen unhappy misanthropy is just silly.

           

        2. Tron Swanson

          Happiness is a relative thing. I’m currently happier than ever, and it may be the happiest I can be. Had we spoken a few years ago, you would have seen true unhappiness.

          Incidentally, I’m asocial, not antisocial.

          I’m sure that it must be alarming–seeing a man looking for sympathy, expressing feelings of weakness, acknowledging failure–not very masculine, I know. Thanks for handling it as well as you have.

        3. Jeremy

          Tron, when I found out that my sister was terminally ill – that she had cancer and might not live to see her 45th birthday, that her kids might become orphans soon, that her husband was unemployed and unable to cope, that I might have to single-handedly support them financially and emotionally for all the foreseeable future while dealing with my own emotional trauma, while dealing with my own work stresses, life stresses, my 4 kids, my busy practice, my parents and family who were also unable to cope…..well Tron, let’s just say I was a man who was looking for sympathy, expressing weakness, and looking for support.  And unashamed of it.  And not denigrated for it.

           

          I sought out counselling.  I expressed my feelings to a licensed psychologist, tried cognitive behavioral therapy, mindfulness meditation, read books on various strategies and talked with my family members.  It was not a panacea.  But it helped.  And it provided an outlet.  Because no man is an island, and when we become islands by cutting ourselves off, our ability to deal with our destructive emotions becomes reduced because we lack perspective.  The key is to navigate a way forward toward healing, not to revolve around in a circle, returning to the emotional starting point after expending all our emotional energy.  And healing does not involve haunting a website for women looking for relationships, howling rage.

        4. Tron Swanson

          Sympathy is probably less than 5% of the reason I’m here. As for therapy…this is as much talking as I care to do.

      2. 11.1.3
        Mrs Happy

        Karl,

        if that was you dancing, you’re quite good looking.

  12. 12
    Marika

    Emily

    The way Chance chooses to express himself: black & white thinking, blanket statements, opinions expressed as facts, can be very off putting..but in this instance I think what he’s saying is fair enough. It also accords with what I’ve seen /been told/experienced dating prolifically over the last couple of years.

    Also, full credit goes to Malika for the term ‘beige dates’. Some variation of 2/2/2 helps with this. As does not dating the ‘good on paper’ guy you should like, if you feel zero attraction.

    1. 12.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Some variation of 2/2/2 helps with this. As does not dating the ‘good on paper’ guy you should like, if you feel zero attraction.

      I was actually talking about beige dates with men I had met irl. I went through a short period when I was saying yes even if I felt “meh” about it because I thought it was a more positive attitude and I was hoping it would open up the universe for other chances down the road. 

      It also accords with what I’ve seen /been told/experienced dating prolifically over the last couple of years.

      A few years ago I asked two male co-workers, independent of each other, what the percentage was of women they find appealing as they were going about their day. Both said 50 percent.

      On the flip side of that, two other male co-workers told me there was only one woman in our 200 or so female coworkers they found appealing. Granted, there were very few young women there. So I think some guys are super picky but both of these guys were the type who wanted to be seen with a super attractive women for ego reasons.

      1. 12.1.1
        Marika

        Emily

        The ‘meh’ thing – don’t do it. (I’m sure you aren’t anymore). Accept that you’re the kind of person who can’t grow in attraction. I was saying to a friend who had an ultra boring date with a nice guy last night that I’ve come to accept that I’m not attracted to guys who will never challenge / disagree with me / and constantly placate me. Or whose conversation lacks humour. No matter how nice they are. It will just never work. Obviously I’m steering clear of complete bastards….😀

        Percentages aside, I think the general point Chance was making rings true. And arguing with him is as futile as Karl R trying to reason with Mr-Sex-Only-Why’s-He-On-This-Blog. If Chance can dig his heels in over an app he’s never used while coupled for longer than appa have been around, then he’s definitely not giving an inch about men and indiscriminate sex. It’s not worth it ☺

        Re your query about the guy I was seeing. I’m still seeing him. We weren’t for a bit, but after 2 days he said he missed me..cue awww’s. Still not sure where it’s going but happy to give it a bit more time as he’s funny and sexy and sweet but with just the right amount of ‘bastard’!

        Jeremy wouldn’t approve ;), but hey we’re different people, and Mrs Happy made a good point about wasting your life on men who won’t commit, but it’s only been 2 months and we are sexually exclusive..just he’s not sure where to from here. I don’t love that, but I think this has potential. So we’ll see. Thanks for asking!

      2. 12.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Marika,

         And arguing with him is as futile as Karl R trying to reason with Mr-Sex-Only-Why’s-He-On-This-Blog … he’s definitely not giving an inch about men and indiscriminate sex. It’s not worth it ☺

        You’re right. I reacted emotionally and should have just ignored the comment. That’s the EXPLORER side in me. Impulsive and emotional. I’m doing the same thing you are. Referencing Jeremy.  🙂

        Still not sure where it’s going but happy to give it a bit more time as he’s funny and sexy and sweet but with just the right amount of ‘bastard’!

        Sounds like the perfect combination.  🙂

         but it’s only been 2 months and we are sexually exclusive..just he’s not sure where to from here.

        It sounds promising. I hope it works out.

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