Why Women Who Hate Men and Men Who Hate Women are Exactly the Same

Feminists who hate men and MRA/MGOTWs who hate women are two peas in a very angry pod. They both have valid points, but refuse to acknowledge the validity of the other side. Join me on this Love U Podcast, where I try to stake out a middle ground in the war between the sexes. After all, it’s pretty hard to find love if you don’t like the gender you’re trying to love.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Katie

    This is so care… ful… ly… written.

     

    There wasn’t much said. I was almost a little disappointed by that.  I don’t think most people would find this controversial at all, except certain very specific internet communities that only seem loud when you actually stumble into their echo chamber – Like some MGTOW or feminism youtuber channels and their comment section, for example. But then when you go back out into the real world it seem clear to me that those EXTREME views are very encapsulated and contained.

    Most wouldn’t find these ideas in this video novel. I anticipate very little backlash for this one.

  2. 2
    Jeremy

    Good post and important discussion, Evan.

     

    A few posts ago, I had mentioned men’s need to be admired for the qualities they consider masculine, and a few of the ladies asked me whether I thought it was a good thing that men need to feel superior at something to feel happy in a relationship.  The answer is that they are asking the wrong question.  Because the morality, the “good or bad” is not only irrelevant, it is destructive.  If we judge it “bad”, we are essentially telling men that what they need is wrong….which leads us to encourage men to not need what they need.  This leads to repression of feelings and eventual blowout.  Rather than judging it good or bad, understand it.  Once you understand it, you can use the knowledge to create a good relationship.

     

    It is neither good nor bad that women hope for courtship from the men they date.  It just IS.  It is neither good nor bad that men want women to admire them.  It just IS.  It is neither good nor bad that women lose attraction to men when they lose respect for them.  It just IS.  So quit whining about how terrible the opposite sex is, and learn to understand them.  And you might find they aren’t so terrible in the end.

    1. 2.1
      Callie

      Jeremy – As one of the people who was curious about the why a man needed to feel superior I want to point out I never brought in good or bad. I was curious why that was because I don’t want that personally and couldn’t relate. I don’t believe I was whining, and I think if we accuse people trying to understand just as you are instructing here as doing such you are going to dissuade others from wanting to ask and learn.

      I also find in general so many of the men here whenever I post my questions assume nefarious reasons or that I’m trying to get them to answer a specific way. I’ve been told that if I ask a question I must also feel a certain way etc. It would be nice if we could all (because I know jumping to conclusions happen with all genders, I’ve seen it with the women here too with the men) if we could more often be a little more trusting and open to questions. That people might sincerely be wanting to learn.

      1. 2.1.1
        Jeremy

        Agreed, Callie.  And I wasn’t accusing you of whining.  I have nothing but respect for people legitimately asking questions to understand the opposite sex.  The whining I mentioned referred to the accusers you mentioned who attribute everything to nefarious reasons.  BTW, did you read the response I wrote you at the end of the 69% post?  Curious what you think.

        1. Callie

          I don’t think I did (it’s so hard to keep track of things on here, I used to spend a bit too much time trying to find responses and then just had to chill a bit and accept I just wasn’t going to be able to keep track of them all – which for someone with my particular OCD like personality has been quite the challenge 🙂 ). Do you know what number it was??

        2. Jeremy

          It was on page 4 near the end.  It was pretty long – sorry.  No need to reply if you don’t feel like it – just thought I’d share what I thought the dynamic was.

        3. Callie

          Cool thanks! I’ll have a search a bit later! Definitely want to check it out 🙂 .

      2. 2.1.2
        Addie

        Did I miss something? Who said men need to feel superior? I don’t find that to be true at all. What I see is they love to be respected and admired for what they do. Seems legit to me! As women we tend to take that as them needing to feel superior to us. Pretty sure that’s not the case. It seems they do compete that way with each other, but with us women, it’s different. They want to impress us. Is that so horrible? Let’s be big about this. Let’s be impressed. It does not make us inferior.

        1. Callie

          Jeremy and I had a long complicated but very interesting conversation on a separate thread about the “superior” thing. Sorry, some things get brought over from previous conversations even if they weren’t mentioned specifically in the current one, I know that can make some things confusing 🙂 .

    2. 2.2
      Emily, the original

      Hi Jeremy,

      I had mentioned men’s need to be admired for the qualities they consider masculine,

      I remember when you mentioned this on another post. What, exactly, do you mean by admire? That’s a pretty strong word and I think I remember you saying admire wasn’t the same as respect.

       

      1. 2.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Respect is the bare minimum. Many women don’t respect their husband’s job, judgment, values, parenting choices, ability to make decisions, taste in clothes, food, music, friends, etc. Men not only desire basic respect (which is to say, tolerance) but also want to be admired for who they are. You’re a GOOD husband. I TRUST you. I BELIEVE in you. I am IMPRESSED by you. Why this is so hard to fathom is beyond me. It’s like women wanting their husbands to find them attractive.

        1. Emily, the original

          Expecting respect is reasonable. Admire sound like the equivalent of a woman expecting the man to find her one of the hottest women ever.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Nope. That’s a willful misreading.

          Admiring a man (or a woman) is simply “I think you’re attractive,” not “I think you’re the MOST attractive.”

          Why is nuance so hard?

        3. Jeremy

          And not just that “I’m impressed” by something generic.  That you’re impressed by the thing he defines his manhood by – whatever that may be.  Just as most women want a man to be impressed by her hotness, which is what many women define their womanhood by.  Of course, we want to impress each other in other ways too, but the sexual ones are especially important in how we define our self-worth in a sexual relationship.  Other qualities factor more in the companionship aspect of a long-term relationship.

        4. Jeremy

          Emily, can you not admire a man for his intelligence if you don’t think he’s smarter than Einstein?  We don’t define admiration by the highest standard in the world.  We define it relative to ourselves!

        5. Alex

          So Jeremy, are you saying you wouldn’t want to be with someone who is smarter than you? Even if she thought you were the bees knees, so to speak ;)?

          I’m just not sure if people think in singular terms like this. It seems like men either feel good around you or not. Is it really about whether you’re better than them at some thing that they think is masculine or not?

      2. 2.2.2
        Emily, the original

        Jeremy,

        Emily, can you not admire a man for his intelligence if you don’t think he’s smarter than Einstein?  And not just that “I’m impressed” by something generic.  That you’re impressed by the thing he defines his manhood by – whatever that may be.  Just as most women want a man to be impressed by her hotness

        Yes, Einstein-level intelligence is not necessary, but is intelligence a quality that men define their manhood by?

        1. Jeremy

          Umm, hello?

        2. Nissa

          I think I get what you are saying, Emily TO. For myself, I enjoy it when people respect my intelligence, but I don’t particularly consider it a FEMININE quality that I have. I would say that it’s a gender neutral quality. I think you are asking Jeremy, do men consider that not just a quality they would like to have admired, but a quality that is inherently masculine?

        3. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Just as most women want a man to be impressed by her hotness, which is what many women define their womanhood by.  Of course, we want to impress each other in other ways too, but the sexual ones are especially important in how we define our self-worth in a sexual relationship.

          You wrote that a woman defines her womanhood by a man being impressed with her hotness. And then said peole define their self-worth in a relationship by having their sexual qualities recognzied. I don’t consider intelligence a sexual quality.

          Btw, yes, every woman wants her partner to find her sexy, but since that can define any sexual relationship, no matter how casual,  it’s the man who can see past her attractiveness, who can really recognize not just the woman but the person, who will be valuable to her.

        4. Jeremy

          Not “men,” Nissa, but rather “some men.”  And the problem with the word “intelligence” is that it is so very broad.  I’d be far more specific that some men feel that being intelligent *at something* or in *some way* is a masculine quality.  But not at other things or in other ways.

           

          My wife has far more logistical intelligence than I do.  She is far better at planning who needs what, sorting agendas, making lists, and getting stuff done.  I totally admire her for this – it is a skill I lack, and frankly a skill I sought out in a potential wife.  The aspects of intelligence I want her to admire in me are the more theoretical and abstract sorts.  Stems from a childhood where I was not in demand from girls my age for my appearance or social skills (unfortunately), but rather their usual compliment to me was that I was smart.  Started believing that being told I was smart was the same as being told I was hot.  Took a while to unload that from my psyche.  But remnants remain…

        5. Jeremy

          Emily, I agree.  Which is why I wrote that the sexual admiration is important for sexual self-esteem, while other qualities are more important for compatibility/long-term relationship worthiness.

        6. Nissa

          Hm. I don’t tend to expect much talk in relation to how my special fella admires my lady bits. This discussion makes me realize that I’m actually basing my sexual self esteem on the fact that IMO, if he’s coherent, I’m not doing my best.

        7. Sum Guy

          Emily @2.2.2

          Intelligence is a trait many professional men define themselves by, it’s a trait that got them where they are.

          The good thing about intelligence, it’s not some zero-sum game.  Intelligent men like intelligent women, the conversations are the best.

          I think people often tend to define themselves by what they are “best” at or have more of than others.  Often used to justify behaviors that are signs of bad character.

          I was raised and believe it’s best to define yourself by your character, how you treat others.

      3. 2.2.3
        Marika

        Emily

        You admired the guy at the deli counter for his moxie. In fact, it gave you a lady boner☺

        A happy, fulfilling relationship isn’t built on respect. I respect a whole lot of people I’d only like to see in short bursts. Find a guy who does something that makes you go “wow”. If that something is something he also values, you’ll both be happy.

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          You admired the guy at the deli counter for his moxie. In fact, it gave you a lady boner☺

          You have a good memory!

          A happy, fulfilling relationship isn’t built on respect. I respect a whole lot of people I’d only like to see in short bursts. Find a guy who does something that makes you go “wow”. If that something is something he also values, you’ll both be happy.

          I agree. Jeremy had written that a man needs his partner to admire the qualities by which he defines his manhood, which is why I was asking what those qualities are. Yes, I admire balls and moxie but if the man doesn’t value that in himself, does my admiration mean as much?

        2. Sum Guy

          Emily,

          Yes, I admire balls and moxie but if the man doesn’t value that in himself, does my admiration mean as much?”

          I’d say it doesn’t, likewise if it is something you disrespect but he doesn’t care, will have less of an effect.

          Many women admire money & status, but I don’t define my self by them.  In fact they are a by-product (a fortunate one) of other aspects of me.  In fact, I find a negative correlation between money & status, and what I desire and value.   So a woman being all admiring of the “wrong” things about me doesn’t mean much.

           

          It really gets down to people liking me for me not some image constructed of me, woman are the same way I’ve found.

        3. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          Many women admire money & status, but I don’t define my self by them.

          I don’t care about money but the status element depends on what it is. I met a man the other day who is a lawyer, which would impress a lot of women, but he fought for the civil rights of low-income communities. And he wasn’t smug or overly impressed with himself. Very friendly, very down-to-earth. So the whole thing was impressive.

        4. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily

           

          This is a very good example.

          “I met a man the other day who is a lawyer, which would impress a lot of women, but he fought for the civil rights of low-income communities. And he wasn’t smug or overly impressed with himself. Very friendly, very down-to-earth. So the whole thing was impressive.”

          imagine if a woman was all into because he was a LAWYER the image of power, prestige and eanrning potential, bet he dresses well.

           

          I doubts that is how he views himself as he has chosen a tough self-sacrifice road.   The lawyer part is a means to an end, helping the oppressed.   The very opposite of what she is thinking.   The image she wants and admires in her head isn’t the him he want to be.  So it is inevitable he will one day sorely disappoint her.

           

          Not it so much you on the other hand, you were impressed by his character not his degree.

        5. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,
          I doubts that is how he views himself as he has chosen a tough self-sacrifice road.   The lawyer part is a means to an end, helping the oppressed.   The very opposite of what she is thinking.   The image she wants and admires in her head isn’t the him he want to be.  So it is inevitable he will one day sorely disappoint her.

          Yes, he probably wants to be respected and admired for the kind of legal work he does, so he needs to find a woman who feels that way.

      4. 2.2.4
        Jeremy

        Alex, I don’t think that most men have the insight into themselves to break it down that way.  They know if they feel good around a woman or if they don’t.  But WHY do they feel good?  And more telling, why DON’T they feel good in some situations?  They don’t feel good when they feel they have to compete with a woman they are dating, even if she doesn’t perceive it as competing.  They want to be admired for what they feel they bring to the table as men.  Evan listed what admiration means in his opinion – good husband, trusting, believing….but most important (IMHO) being IMPRESSED.  Consider the connotations of the word impressed.  And please note, it only refers to the specific thing(s) he wants to impress you at.  He also wants to be impressed BY you.  At other things.

        1. KK

          Hi Jeremy,

          Like some of the other ladies, I’m a bit confused. (I think) I understand a man needing to feel respected and admired, which a woman needs to as well, although it might look a little differently.

          What’s so confusing to me about this topic is it doesn’t seem to mesh with the many men that relentlessly pursue women who show absolutely zero interest. So, why do some guys do this, in your opinion? They’re not being validated in any way, yet they don’t give up.

        2. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Evan listed what admiration means in his opinion – good husband, trusting, believing….but most important (IMHO) being IMPRESSED. 

          Ok. Here is an example of something a man told me that impressed me. A friend is in his mid-50s. He has a group of guy friends, one of whom has a mother who is terminally ill. My friend told the other friends privately that they had to be prepared to be there for him because he remembered how hard it was when he lost his mother. That impressed me because it implied a certain level of self-awareness and caring for others. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

        3. Marika

          KK

          For people that way inclined, winning someone they desire over, or the potential for it, even if it’s only in their own head, is the ultimate validation.

        4. Emily, the original

          KK,

          What’s so confusing to me about this topic is it doesn’t seem to mesh with the many men that relentlessly pursue women who show absolutely zero interest.

          They’re missing some kind of “receive information” chip.

        5. Addz

          Jeremy! Kudos for slogging thru this sea of misunderstanding! I personally admire you for hanging in there and trying to explain something that I as a woman find very important. Ladies, please! I think you don’t understand how little it costs you and how great the benefits are of letting loose and admiring a man. For me, a man doesn’t need to be Einstein, or Brad Pitt, for that matter. It’s just that he does something for you. In his innocence he hopes that you’ll appreciate. Thus he knows his production, whatever it may be, didn’t go to waste. Someone actually got to enjoy it!and trust me, when you admire a man for what he does, and let him know…….my gosh, that there is the essence of romance. It feels beautiful to you both. Ironically, it feels even better for the woman than the man. She gets to more enjoy whatever he did and at the same time feel more of an honest respect and love for him. Y’all seem afraid it will make you less, but it won’t!! Not only that, but he will naturally want to do more for you because it will feel good to him. It’s a match made in heaven. Quit fighting it, is my advice.

        6. KK

          Hi there Emily & Marika,

          I get all that but it still doesn’t mesh with what Jeremy is saying. I would bet both of you have known lots of men who chase women who have no interest in them and even if they do eventually catch one, then what? Marika, you said that’s the ultimate validation. Yes, but for how long? I can’t see a guy really being happy with someone long term if she’s on the fence about him.

          Maybe that’s part of what Jeremy is talking about when he says you need to understand what your future self wants.

        7. Emily, the original

          KK,

          I’m not trying to beat a dead horse, but I’m still not clear on what it is I’m supposed to admire. What if you admire a quality in man he doesn’t value in himself and don’t admire or even particularly notice the qualities he wants to be acknowledged for?

        8. KK

          Emily,

          “What if you admire a quality in man he doesn’t value in himself and don’t admire or even particularly notice the qualities he wants to be acknowledged for?”

          I guess you’re not compatible? Lol. I don’t know. But I like what Sum Guy said (2.2.5)

          Marika said, “When he came back I said “my hero!” and kissed him.”

          Okay, but is this sincere? It seems a bit patronizing.

          “He must’ve asked 5 times how the coffee was”.

          That would drive me crazy. I have a friend like this. Wonderful person, but I couldn’t be in a (daily) relationship with someone that needed CONSTANT reassurance. ONE sincere “Thank you” and a hug or kiss should be enough IMO.

           

           

        9. Sum Guy

          Emily,

          On this:

          “What if you admire a quality in man he doesn’t value in himself and don’t admire or even particularly notice the qualities he wants to be acknowledged for?”

          i think you’ll have to understand each other on this very clearly or it won’t work.   You will think he’s changed if he ever gets you to see him as he wants to see himself and/or he’ll think you never was into him.    It really is a big problem in my experience.

          I can see over time he seeing himself more as you see him and you learning to like the parts he does.

        10. Emily, the original

          KK,

          That would drive me crazy. I have a friend like this. Wonderful person, but I couldn’t be in a (daily) relationship with someone that needed CONSTANT reassurance. ONE sincere “Thank you” and a hug or kiss should be enough IMO.

          It would drive me crazy, too. Once a co-worker went out and brought lunch back for me. I was appreciate as it was a nice gesture. I told him the salad he picked was good and thanked him several times, but we had to continue over the course of the rest of the day to have several conversations about it. The next day he saw me drinking a diet soda and realized he had brought me back a regular soda (I had noticed but didn’t say anything). I lied and said I can drink either one — not true, I hate regular soda — but I didn’t have the energy to spend 10 minutes reassuring him about the soda choice. I have to say my mind started to wonder about what else he needed this much reassurance about.

      5. 2.2.5
        Sum Guy

        It may be expressed in different general ways between the genders, but in a relationship both parties want to be “seen” to be liked, respected, and if it is to be love “admired” for the qualities they use to define themselves and feel secure in this world.

        I would think women would also like to be respected, and even impressed or admired in certain areas, by their husbands for their: job, judgment, values, parenting choices, ability to make decisions, taste in clothes, food, music, friends.

         

        Isn’t that the very basis of friendships, some mutual respect and admiration  even with disagreements (but good-natured ones).  To me, a good relationship / marriage should be a friendship plus.

         

        1. Marika

          Emily said:

          “What if you admire a quality in man he doesn’t value in himself and don’t admire or even particularly notice the qualities he wants to be acknowledged for?”

          The men I’ve known make it very clear what they want you to be impressed by. Usually pretty early on. Either in behaviour or actual words. They’ll talk about it a lot, ask what you thought, perform some action and then look at you for your reaction. Talk about what someone at work said to them about x etc.

          Plus any admiration is good. Unless it’s something banal or even potentially emasculating like “you fold sheets well”. Remember that men do what they want. So whenever they aren’t doing what they want around you, they’re doing things to make you happy and impress you. So, be impressed!

          Simple example: The guy I’m seeing went to the shops for me to get eggs. He called from the shop and asked if I wanted anything else. I said I couldn’t think of anything, but thank you. He suggested coffee. That was all about me, as he doesn’t drink coffee. So I made sure to be super excited and grateful about it. When he came back I said “my hero!” and kissed him. He must’ve asked 5 times how the coffee was. Clearly “doing things to help out” matters to him.

          A more significant example: he speaks three languages & does some translating on the side. So I asked him to translate something brief for me for work. I highlighted the sections that needed translating, but he did the whole thing. Again, he asked me several times if it was useful & all made sense. I thanked and reassured him multiple times. Clearly intelligence & worldliness are important to his masculinity.

        2. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          Simple example: The guy I’m seeing went to the shops for me to get eggs. He called from the shop and asked if I wanted anything else. I said I couldn’t think of anything, but thank you. He suggested coffee. That was all about me, as he doesn’t drink coffee. So I made sure to be super excited and grateful about it. When he came back I said “my hero!” and kissed him. He must’ve asked 5 times how the coffee was. Clearly “doing things to help out” matters to him.

          He’s considerate of what you need, and that’s to be appreciated and acknowledged. But asking 5 times how the coffee was? I’m going to get slammed for saying this, but … don’t you find that draining?

    3. 2.3
      Alex

      @Jeremy thanks for the clarification here. I generally agree with your post.

       

      Although I’m still questioning the “man needs to be better than a woman thing.” Even if I “understand” this, how would I use this in my own dating life?

      Also, Evan explicitly gives advice to women to give men “worse than us” at something a chance. Guys who make less money, guys who are shorter than average (or us), guys who aren’t as smart or as educated. Not that I see these things as “worse”, just that not everyone in the population can be in the top 5% at everything.

      So my question is, if I’m giving these men a shot in dating, how can I possibly also “let them” be better than me? I have a master’s and make six figures, so if a man defines his masculinity by his intelligence and ability to provide (I’m assuming this is common-ish in professional circles) then he’s never going to feel great around me, no matter how I feel about him.

       

      Unless of course, he defines masculinity by something like doing crossword puzzles, playing baseball or something that I’m bad at. I don’t mean to be critical, but this smacks of the idea that a girl should dumb herself down to win a guy’s affections. I am genuinely trying to understand and use this in my own life to get better at dating.

      I really value your perspective in these comments, otherwise I wouldn’t comment. I know you only want us to understand, but the point of understanding is to implement a better tactic, right?

      1. 2.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        I’ve got this one, Alex:

        I’m “better” than my wife if you think “better” means more impressive school, GPA, earning potential, intellectual curiosity.
        My wife is “better” than I am if you think “better” means more even-tempered, warm, patient, easygoing, thoughtful, and emotionally generous.

        If you’re like me, you’d BETTER find a man who is like my wife and you’d BETTER accept/appreciate/admire him for what he IS, instead of focusing on what he’s NOT.

        If you think you’re “better” than a man because you are smarter and make more money, you’re basically saying that every man who is smarter/makes more money than his wife is also “better” than she is. I somehow doubt you feel that way when the shoe is on the other foot.

        1. Almudena

          The problem with your response, Evan, is that earlier you said that a man needs to be admired by his woman for the qualities that he considers essential to his masculinity. (I am paraphrasing).

          So… what if a less than impressive guy that Alex is giving a chance to defines his masculinity by earning power, worldly prestige and intellectual accomplishments? (A rather common way of defining masculinity). In that case being admired by Alex for his patience, warmth and sweet temper won’t mean a thing to him and it won’t fulfill the need you are talking about.

          I am afraid Alex is correct. You can advise women to give a chance to the less impressive guys and try to find the beauty and value in them OR you can advise women to be with men they unreservedly admire for their masculine attributes — but you cannot have it both ways.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          And you, Almudena (using a new name, why?) cannot have it both ways.

          If you want to be the opinionated, driven, busy, critical masculine energy woman, you’re not going to get a similar guy. My advice is based on what works for women. Learn to admire people for their character (as I did) instead of venerating them for (largely useless) masculine traits.

        3. Almudena

          Evan, my full name is Maria Almudena. I started with Maria, but it created confusion with another Maria on the forum, so then I went by Maria Almudena for a while — then I simplified. Almudena is my psychological name, the one I use the most. So no reason for the change, other than avoiding confusion with other members or appearing to be arguing with myself.

          I find your forum very interesting because it is far above the common discourse on gender relations that one finds online. I don’t know if it’s necessarily more on the right track than other forums, but a lot of people here know how to spell and can string a sentence together. I also like the fact that you allow contrary opinions. You have only mildly moderated me on occasion, and mostly in ways I could agree with.

          I am not looking for a guy, so that is an assumption on your part, nor do I admire guys for their stereotypical masculine traits — an even bigger assumption you are making. That is, in fact, the problem that I have with your angle on this — that the admiration you think men need has to be on the guy’s terms and according to what they see as their masculine self-worth. This may be a very superficial definition or masculinity, something I could never admire or even pretend to like.

          I think most (all?) guys have qualities worthy of admiration, but those qualities may not be the ones they are most proud of, or the ones they relate to their masculine essence. To give you an example, a boyfriend of mine got offended once because I told him he was sweet. In my mind it was a compliment and something I genuinely admired (as sweetness is not my own strong suit), but he got offended and contradicted me.

          Your last answer was a bit of an ad-hominem go at me, but you are incorrect in assuming that I value stereotypically masculine traits over character.

          I do like masculine guys but to me the qualities that I admire in a man are more inner than outer. So I am already into character, as you advise.  I like men who define themselves and measure their self-worth by the service they lend to others, by their contribution to the well-being of their community, by how consistent their lives are with their spiritual or ethical values, by their effectiveness in righting the wrong they see in this world, by their ability to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves… I will argue that this line of self-definition is much more worthy of admiration than any physical hotness, intellectual prowess or financial status.

          I agree with you that, in order to attract a masculine guy, a woman has to be prepared to dwell within her own feminine energy. However I find it interesting that as soon as I contradict you with what I believe is a very logical argument, you accuse me of being “the opinionated, driven, busy, critical masculine energy woman” and sentence me to never find a guy.

           

          A problem with this, of course, is that as seen all over this thread, men like this are very rare.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          I apologize. I should have said “if one wants to be” instead of “if you want to be.” It wasn’t about you. My error. To sum up:

          Women want more masculine men.
          Men want more feminine women.

          The difference is that masculine woman ALSO want more masculine men, which creates conflict within relationships. That’s why I’m a coach for smart, strong, successful women – they are faced with dilemmas that smart, strong, successful men are not faced with.

        5. Alex

          @Evan I kind of think you’re misreading what I’m saying (probably my fault, after all, I did write it)

          Generally what I seek out in men is happiness, gregariousness, extraversion, humor, warmth, kindness – that sort of thing. Makes no difference to me what they do or how much they make.

          My question to Jeremy was – assuming these are the reasons I admire someone – would most men have a problem with me earning more/having a more prestigious job or education DESPITE the fact that I still admire him for all his more important qualities. It turns out Jeremy was not actually saying that they would, but I interpreted his comments that way.

          I didn’t mean to say that people who make more money are better than those who make less. I don’t want you to think that’s what I was saying.

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          Secure men (like me) have NO trouble with women who make more money…as long as the women who make more money don’t look down on the men who make less. A big factor in male insecurity is women’s condescension.

        7. Addz

          well said, Evan, well said.

      2. 2.3.2
        Jeremy

        I agree with Evan’s response to you, Alex.  I’ll add my own spin which Evan may or may not agree with:

         

        You are right.  If a man defines his manhood by how much money he makes and you make more, that man is not likely going to be happy with you.  If you define your self-worth by how much you make, you likely won’t be happy with a man who makes less.  The solution, IMHO, is not to beat yourself up, but to understand yourself – what you really need, and what you only think you need.  And I’d give the same advice to men.

         

        My sister defines herself by her education and income.  Her husband works in construction and defines himself by the quality of his work.  They get along just fine.

        1. Gala

          This line of thinking is not without logic but let’s be honest here. How many straight men define their masculinity by being “better” at being “even-tempered, warm, patient, easygoing, emotionally generous”? My guess is, in our culture – close to none. So if not education, money, or those “soft qualities” what can a man be better at which is masculine, compared to a woman like Alex? Something physical – sports or labor. So all this psychologically complicated advice can be boiled down to: educated women who make money should date fire fighters or pro athletes 🙂 Or really, really effeminate men.

        2. Jeremy

          I disagree, Gala.  Some men define their manhood by creativity and craftsmanship.  Artists, builders, artisans…people who work with their hands or with their bodies.  Other men define their manhood by their physique – much like women, if a woman finds them hot, that’s all they need, income be damned.  Some men define their manhood by their street smarts, their ability to succeed in spite of odds.  There are many, many things a man can define his manhood by, other than income or what one might consider effeminate qualities.

        3. Alex

          @Jeremy & Evan,

           

          This makes much more sense. I think I interpreted the discussion on the other article to be about a man who values intelligence needing to be literally more intelligent than his girlfriend or he would feel emasculated.

          Admiring someone for who they are and what they are good at is perfectly reasonable in choosing someone you date. I’m kind of surprised this needs to be said? If you don’t admire them, why would you want to date them?

        4. Alex

          I actually said the exact opposite –  “not that I see these things as worse.” I generally don’t value higher ed or money very much, especially in people I date. It’s fine if it makes them happy, but otherwise I don’t care what he’s achieved in these particular realms. My point was about HIS feelings.

          I suppose commenting on another thread from a different article is confusing, but there are way too many comments to sort through.

        5. Gala

          @Jeremy:

          I literally feel that you’ve said the exact same thing that I have, only you somehow prefaced it with “i disagree” 🙂

          I think there are only 4 fundamental “realms”, if you will, in which we define ourselves: success in our profession, money, physical strength or appearance and emotional qualities. Everything else are variations within. How is a guy who defines himself based on his craftsmanship different from the one who defines himself by his corporate title? Not at all, basically, both are measures of his professional success, they just happen to have different professions. May be I am misunderstanding your point, but it just doesn’t seem that a female top-banker would fare any better with a struggling artist-waiter type who defines himself by his “craft” than she would with a staff accountant who defines himself by title. Or are you saying that she would? A hot firefighter, on the other hand… that’s a thought! LOL

           

        6. Jeremy

          Interesting discussion, Gala, I like the theoretical.  But I disagree 🙂

           

          The man who defines his manhood by his creativity often does so without regard for his financial success.  My brother-in-law doesn’t earn great money fixing floors, but he takes great pride in the accomplished result.  Whereas the person who invests their value in income doesn’t necessarily value the product/service he produces, but rather the income or sometimes the recognition.  I remember reading an article about a successful woman married to a struggling writer, who admired him for his writing until he stopped writing and just started lounging around.  As long as he took pride in his craft, she admired him and he felt admirable.

        7. Gala

          Jeremy, you are conflating success with money which is not necessarily the case. What if a man who is defining himself through his craftsmanship, but doesn’t have a lot of money, get together with a woman who is at the top of her profession but is also in a non-moneyed field. Let’s say she is a top film or creative writer professor, or may be she is a curator at a gallery, or some other “high profile low income” occupation. Let’s say neither one is rich, but she is more successful at her profession than he is in his craft. Then what happens ?

        8. Almudena

          @Gala . “I think there are only 4 fundamental “realms”, if you will, in which we define ourselves: success in our profession, money, physical strength or appearance and emotional qualities. Everything else are variations within.”

          I am really baffled by this opinion of yours. Those may be common ways of defining oneself, but they are far from all there is. Very far.

          I know people that define themselves and measure their self-worth by the service they lend to others, by their contribution to the well-being of their family and/or wider community, by how consistent their lives are with their spiritual or ethical values, by their effectiveness in righting the wrong they see in this world, by their ability to speak for those who canno speak for themselves… And I will argue that this line of self-definition is much more worthy of admiration than any physical hotness, intellectual prowess or financial status.

      3. 2.3.3
        mgm531

        You can also admire a person for their passion and success in their various field of expertise or profession.  Just because someone may have a Master’s degree in one area doesn’t mean that can’t admire someone that has a BA/BS in a different discipline.  Can you not admire a genuine craftsman/craftswoman that is skilled at wood working, metal work or artistry even though they may not have as much education as you do or make as much money as you do?  I know a brewmaster that makes some of the finest beer in world, has won gold medal awards for his creations and has master’s degree in brewing management.  His wife is a high earning attorney that easily makes twice and maybe even three times as much as he does.  But they both admire and respect each other greatly for their mastery of their respective disciplines.  Is it so difficult to fathom a successful relationship such as theirs even though they have different edicuation levels (and disciplines) and different incomes?

      4. 2.3.4
        GoWiththeFlow

        Alex,

        Men who’s sense of masculine identity is strongly tied to being a high earner will avoid/not seek out women who are high earners.  Especially if they put all of the masculine identity eggs in the same basket labelled “I make good money.”  The men who do pursue or engage with you either invest their masculine identity in other areas or they have the eggs spread between two or more baskets.

        1. Jeremy

          Agreed, GWTF, or they might just be men who find her so attractive that they go after her regardless, because they find being desired by such an attractive woman extremely validating.  In such cases, the relationship can seem ideal for the first while (read – few years) until things settle down and both parties start to realize what their needs actually are, beyond hotness validation.  Hence the “happily ever after” bias we were discussing elsewhere. It is so important that we understand ourselves.

           

          Alex asked “how can I use this information in my dating life?”  The answer is that you can understand for yourself what you want a man to admire you for, sexually.  What do you perceive as your femininity?  Once you understand that, you can choose a man who admires you for it.  But truth is, most women perceive their physical appearance as their femininity and have no trouble finding men who admire that.  So it may be a non-issue.  Next, understand what your sexual meta-goals are.  This is harder to do, and will require you to examine your own history.  Once you understand your sexual meta-goals, you will understand what you need from a man in a sexual relationship.  This may sound obvious, but it isn’t.  Because so many women conflate their sexual meta-goals with their relationship goals – “I need a man who is stable, responsible, good provider/dad potential” so they find such a man, rejoice in the fact that he is different from all the other men they’ve dated in the past, congratulate themselves for having “matured” and marry him……only to find they lack sexual desire after the first kid is born.   Because they didn’t “mature” at all.  They just conflated relationship needs for sexual ones.

           

          Finally, once an individual understands these things about themselves, they should understand them about their partner.  Do not marry someone whose personality and meta-goals you don’t understand.  If you don’t understand their goals – what they need and what they want to be admired for, how can you give them what they need?  If you can’t give them what they need, why are you marrying them?  How many of us think about any of this?

    4. 2.4
      Nissa

      Let me respond with an example. I have a friend who was putting on different clothing, posing in front of a mirror with her husband in the room. She turned slowly, asking him “Am I hot?’ (Always a bad move). His response: “You look great, honey”. My friend came to me and said, “Can you believe him? He’s supposed to say I look hot! He’s supposed to support me and help me feel good about myself!” My reply? “Friend, why are you asking him to validate you and make you feel good instead of doing it yourself? You are responsible to validate yourself. You are responsible to make yourself feel good – it’s not his job. It’s nice if he does that, but it’s not his responsibility – it’s yours”.  Yeah, she wasn’t happy with me for that one.

      But I think that’s where women are coming from on this one, that feeling important is something each of us (both genders) for which we are personally responsible. Just as my friend would have done better to validate herself rather than ask for external validation, or needing to feel she was “superior” to Angelina Jolie, it would be best for her to self validate without relation to others.

       

      1. 2.4.1
        Marika

        I’m not sure if you’re equating validation with admiration, Nissa but I don’t think they’re the same thing. You can admire your man, and he you, without feeling like you’re fawning all over each other or propping up egos.

        I think the women who struggle with this think there’s an expectation that they walk around saying “oh, you’re so intelligent, superior man, unlike little ole me”, it’s not like that. You can admire with a smile, by asking for help with something they are better at, by expressing in many little ways that they’re making a value-add to your life which you appreciate and which turns you on.

        1. Nissa

          In my mind, I’m not equating them, no. In my example, the husband already admired his wife by saying, “you look great”. That wasn’t enough for her. She was basing her self worth on needing a certain level of excitement-on-demand.

          When I’m with a man I admire, I tell him so. Compliments are easy, as I would not be inclined to date a man unless there was something about him I found appealing or admirable. Such compliments do not devalue the giver in any way.

        2. Addz

          Thank you, Marika. Exactly so. Suspicious how we’re complicating this whole thing and figuring it out. It’s really very simple. Both men and women enjoy love and support from their partner. We’re both human, after all. The masculine and the feminine, however, although complementary, are a bit different. Women, or the feminine, naturally enjoy being courted, cherished, and protected. And guess what? The masculine enjoys doing just that. He enjoys being your hero. Must we take that from him? And let’s be real, ladies. Is it really so abhorrent to have a hero? Does it diminish us? Of course not! It’s a beautiful, romantic thing, even if he’s just taking out the trash. Let him be a hero! Celebrate him! Just try it! It really feels good.

    5. 2.5
      Nissa

      Huh. I, like Callie, would have a hard time relating to that idea. Yes, I like being complimented on my body. But maybe because it’s usually a precursor to a request for sex, it feels like a less honest compliment than on that’s more general.

      1. 2.5.1
        Marika

        Nissa, I guess I’m just not sure why you brought up the example of your friend who needed (imo excessive) validation, in the context of a discussion about the importance of admiring your partner. That’s why I thought you were equating the two.

        1. Nissa

          The reason I brought it up is because in post #2, Jeremy brought up the idea that some men need to be admired for what they consider masculine. In my example, my friend thought that’s what she was doing – needing admiration for her feminine virtue of hotness. My point was, she was doing more than just asking for admiration, she was requiring external validation. I was showing that sometimes people are self actualized enough to see their own behavior objectively.

          It’s also why it would not occur to me to ask for that from my partner, as Jeremy is suggesting. I see it as MY job to feel good about myself, including my feminine attributes. Do compliments feel awesome? Yes! Do I love them? YES! But I don’t require them or feel badly about myself if I don’t get them.

        2. Nissa

          oops – are NOT self actualized enough.

    6. 2.6
      Sylvana

      I, for one, very much admire masculine qualities in a man. The problem I have is that I don’t often encounter many men who still display masculine qualities.  As a high testosterone woman, I expect a man to show at least as many masculine qualities as me, if not more.

      Strength, protectiveness (not obsessive jealousy, there is a huge difference), offering to help with or take over physically demanding or possibly dangerous tasks should be a given. Taking charge in resolving problems or handling complications should go along with that as well.

      In order for someone to look up to you, there has to be something to look up to. I fully understand that men like to be admired/appreciated for their masculine qualities, and I know why. But men also have to realize that they actually have to display those qualities in order to get credit for them. I’d love to be admired for being a great artist. Reality is, I can’t draw a stick figure.

      I can complain all day that others don’t appreciate my artistic skills, and I would be absolutely correct. But to expect others to tone down their skills so they can admire me for mine is likely not going to work.

      So in order for a woman to appreciate a man’s masculine qualities, they have to be better than, or at least equal to, hers.  A lot of women spend most of their days in their masculine energy in order to survive. When it comes to dating and relationships, we have to switch to our feminine energies. I agree with that. But at that point, the masculine energy better be coming from him. In short, a man has to allow a woman to be in her feminine energy. He cannot expect her to tone down her masculine energy more and more, until it is finally below that which he displays.

      If I’m driving down the road with a man and the car blows a tire, I’m more than willing to stay feminine and wait for him to handle it. Until he pulls out the phone and calls roadside assistance. At which point I’d sigh, roll my eyes, get out of the car, and have the spare put on within a few minutes. Darned if I’m going to sit there for the next hour waiting for roadside assistance to show up. But I guess I’ll make sure to let him know I admire him for handling the situation by calling them. I guess what I should have done is sit there and twiddle my thumbs while keeping my masculine energy lower than his, so I remain feminine enough (He handled it, who cares if he handled it in a feminine way, the handling alone should count as masculine, right?). Just like he’ll understand that he needs to suppress his Picasso skills so he can admire my stick figures.

      If we’re out somewhere, and someone bothers me, the man I’m with has about two minutes to fix the situation while I try my best to wrestle down my masculine instincts. After that, I’m gonna stomp the person bothering me into the ground.

      I am a physical strong laborer, can lift very heavy loads, fix just about anything around the house. But as long as he is around, I better never HAVE to do it (unless he is injured or too sick). I realize that’s a lot of pressure. But if I, as a woman, can handle that kind of pressure, I don’t see why a man can’t (at least not if he wants me to admire him as a man).

      To me, there is no greater feeling in the world than handing over responsibilities and physical aspects to someone capable of handling them. Basically, someone at least equally, if not more masculine than me. While I’ll never learn how to think or feel like a woman, there’s enough of a woman in me to where I can appreciate not having to be in charge.

      As for appreciation in general (you’re a good father, etc., like Evan mentioned), that should always be shown to anyone who does a good job, helped out, etc. etc. But that is not the problem.

      Men want us to make them feel masculine – which I understand. But in order to do so, we have to be comfortable being feminine around them. If she has leader qualities, she cannot remain a follower if he is a follower as well. Masculine and feminine have to add up to 100%.  If they both operate in 60% feminine energy, there is a serious problem.

      I do believe both sides have a point. The “women haters” are correct that women have become too masculine. Although it is more of a problem of women not being able to let go of that masculine energy around men. But you cannot fix that by demanding Picasso to lower his skills and admire your stick figures. Not to mention what they bring to the table and what they want in a woman is the equivalent of a person on welfare demanding to be handed a brand new Ferrari.

      Feminists are correct that everyone (not just women) should have equal rights. But they are absolutely wrong for claiming men and women are equal (or worse – women are better than men). And they need to realize that those masculine qualities they hate so much in a man are the same masculine qualities they are using to keep themselves on an equal playing field with men.

       

  3. 3
    Yet Another Guy

    @Evan

    Calling me a mansplainer is kind of like accusing your OB/GYN of sexual harassment

    That is a priceless.  If feminists are willing to call you a mansplainer, they do not stand a chance with a guy who is not sensitive to women’s needs.

  4. 4
    Malika

    ‘It’s pretty hard to find love if you don’t like the gender you’re trying to love.’ Hits the nail on the head. I might print it out on posters and give to the men and women in my life who wan’t love/a good relationship but treat the other sex as exploitative nitwits.

    What you are saying is all very reasonable. As an earlier commenter said, i think you’ll find backlash only from the extreme groups on the spectrum.

    Regarding the ‘admire’. I take it to mean appreciate his qualities and achievements that he finds important about himself, instead on nitpicking on every single thing he isn’t or being dismissive. You can admire without being a doormat! I could never be with a man i don’t admire, his positive qualities are what makes me want to be with him in the first place. That doesn’t mean i put myself on a lower level, i just appreciate him for what he is. I appreciate the man in my life for his kindness, open mind, sharp intelligence, patience and (emotional/physical) strength. He is masculine without needing to prove himself, and that is very sexy indeed! I think the extreme MRA’s/MGTOW groups, as well as the more extreme feminists, while expousing kernels of truths, let their frustration twist them into fear and hatred. The whole opposite sex is out to get them, and must be ruthlessly dominated in order to feel safe again. This looks like such an impoverished way to go through life, and i hope they find a way to soften their stance and to deal with the trauma that led them to think this way.

    The following is a good real life example of how to admire without putting the other on a pedestal. One of my friends is a high flying academic with a very high salary while her partner works part time for a catering company. According to societal expectations this relationship is destined to fail, but they are very happy together. She admires his masculinity, social skills, humour and sensitivity. He never denigrates her academic achievements or treats her as a bimbo. The end result is a very peaceful relationship, where both parties feel admired and understood. They remind me of Jeremy’s entreatment to not tread on a man’s masculinity and to not be with a man who feels outshone by you.

    1. 4.1
      Nissa

      Yes. I can always find something to admire about the one I’m dating. I just don’t mention the things he doesn’t do as well.

    2. 4.2
      Sylvana

      I agree with most of what you said. But I find it interesting that the traits you describe do not resonate as masculine traits to me at all. I’d say they lean rather heavily toward the feminine energy side.

      I’m not saying this to argue, but rather that this might point toward the problem with men not feeling appreciated for their masculine traits. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies.

      You mentioned  kindness, open mind, sharp intelligence, patience,  social skills, humor and sensitivity. If I didn’t know better, I’d say you’re describing a woman. As a matter of fact, the first picture that came to my mind was the wonderful, homely housewife, who is an incredible nurturer to her children and family. While I absolutely agree that those are wonderful qualities for a man to have, I think this somewhat hints toward what women want in a man, rather than what actually is masculine. In any person, these qualities should definitely be appreciated.

      But (and I might be wrong), I don’t think complementing or admiring a man for his sensitivity, kindness, patience, social skills will make him feel very masculine. His emotional and physical strength – yes. Most certainly.

      But this might just be the problem. When a woman compliments or appreciates a man for those skills, to her, it is the highest form of compliment, since those are the best qualities of her own energy. To him, it will definitely feel like appreciation, but only as appreciation for being a good person, not a man. So he might still feel unappreciated for his masculine qualities, while the woman feels that she showed more than enough appreciation.

      You often hear women say that just because a man is strong, does not mean he cannot be sensitive. This is true. But that still doesn’t make sensitivity a masculine trait.

      In both of your relationships (and of course I cannot tell for sure, since I do not know more about you), I would guess that both partners operate more on a 50/50 feminine/masculine energy distribution. Maybe 60/40, at best. Which, nowadays, is one of the best distributions you can get, in my opinion. Both partners can readily step in and lean more toward either energy whenever needed, as well as accept the other partner to lean further into one’s own energy when needed.

      But a man with such relatively equal distribution of masculine/feminine energy would likely have problems with both more feminine and more masculine women (the first, because she would expect him to carry way more responsibility, pushing him to be more masculine than he is comfortable with, the second, because she would push him to be less masculine than he is comfortable with).

      And while aiming for the golden middle might sound perfect to women, if both partners lean the slightest bit in the same energy direction, it can cause major friction, and will likely not be sustainable in the long run.

      Sometimes, it almost feels like women tend to judge qualities as good or bad, rather than masculine or feminine. And sadly, everything bad is often associated with the masculine (controlling, aggressive, possessive, cold, heartless. Rapists, abusers, etc.). So women get defensive when told men like to be appreciated for their masculine qualities. And, in some cases, are starting to raise men to feel guilty for their masculine qualities.

      Extremes (100% or close of the feminine or masculine) are, of course, horrible. But a person leaning strongly toward one side, with just enough good qualities from the other side, is still a great person.

      Maybe women need to understand masculine and feminine energies better. There seems to be a lot of confusion. For some reason, men seem to have a much better understanding of the differences.

      For example, you mentioned that he is masculine without needing to prove himself. Proving oneself is definitely a masculine quality. At the extreme end, that means you go around bashing people’s heads in. And it seems like that, along with other, negative attributes, is what you associate with proving oneself. But if you think for a moment that your man does not feel the need to prove himself to you, you’re mistaking. Every time he goes out of his way to do something nice for you, something that will bring a smile to your face, make you feel better (no matter how small), he is acting on the need to prove himself to you. In a POSITIVE way. To a woman, this might look like he is a kind, sweet man (she’s seeing only the small percentage of feminine energy in the act that turns it positive). To him, he satisfied his masculine instinct to prove himself. If he had no need to prove himself, you’d dump him in a heartbeat — extreme end of feminine energy, leading to selfishness without the masculine to balance it.

      Protectiveness, for example, is one of the most beautiful masculine qualities. One of my personal favorites. And a very easy one to compliment a man on. At the extreme end, you’ll end up with man who is dangerous, absolutely controlling, and deadly jealous. Throw in a little dash of feminine kindness or nurturing energies, though, and you’ll end up with a man who’ll lay down his life for you. It will also show in little gestures, such as walking on the car side of the road, lifting heavy stuff for you, offering to climb up the wobbly latter instead of you having to do it, etc. etc. Once more, oftentimes women would consider that kindness, or being considerate (which is is). But it comes from the masculine energy of protectiveness.

      As such, expressing appreciation for his kindness or consideration would not do much to show appreciation for his masculine qualities. Let’s say he does walk on the car side of the road. Don’t tell him that he’s so kind. Tell him that he makes you feel safe. That shift toward showing appreciation of the strong-at-play masculine energy, rather than the small influence of feminine energy will make all the difference.

      Does that make you a doormat? Of course not.

      Providing is another masculine trait. That does not mean he has to be the breadwinner, high earner, etc. Think of all the ways in daily life he provides something that makes your life easier, takes the worry off your mind, etc. Let’s say he always takes your car in to get its oil changes. Yes, it is considerate, sweet, kind, etc. But if you tell him how nice it is to never have to worry about it, you just gave him a major masculine ego boost. By you not worrying, he has provided, and as such, satisfied his natural need to provide.

      Providing can  mean everything from digging a hole for the tree you want to plant, fixing stuff around the house, to taking care of the children, grocery shopping, etc. Once again – focus on how he took care of you, made something easier for you, etc. rather than just appreciating the kind gesture.

      A man who is stronger in his masculine energy will need this kind of appreciation to feel good. Likewise, a woman who is stronger in her feminine energy will not feel too good if she is appreciated for mostly her masculine traits. Those in the 50/50, maybe even 60/40 range will likely be fine either way.

      I (being on the higher masculine energy range, despite being a woman) often find myself expressing appreciation to other women in a way that would please me best. “I appreciate this. It’ll make things so much easier for me.” Now, stated to me, that would be a wonderful comment, because it would make me feel useful. Like I could “provide” something. When I get a small smile in return, I generally take a breath, and try again. “It was incredibly thoughtful and kind of you to do this for me.” And their faces light up like stadium lights. Having the “emotional” component recognized was more important to these women than what the action provided. Which, I guess, makes sense.

      I’m sorry to have used your comment for an example, but I found it somewhat enlightening. As I said, all of the traits you listed as appreciating in him (short of physical/emotional strength), seemed to be feminine to me. And then you mentioned that both men were also very masculine. But did not mention how they were masculine. What is it that either of these men do that makes you consider them masculine? (I’m not insulting or doubting them being masculine. I’m asking you to focus on the masculine traits that you and your friend like about them).

      If I was talking about a man’s masculine qualities I truly liked, I would mention that he makes me feel safe (physically as well as emotionally), protected, taken care of, appreciated.

      When you read that, do you think of an overbearing, controlling, primitive brute? I sure hope not. But that man is actually on the higher end of the masculine range. I would likely not list his patience, social skills, or sensitivity as some of his strongest assets. He’ll have enough to be a good person, but his masculine traits will be more dominant. Since I, personally, very much appreciate masculine traits, I would not want patience, social skills, or sensitivity to be so much as equal to them.

      And while many women would likely prefer close to a 50/50 balance, they still have to learn to find the positive masculine energy in their men, and express appreciation for that. (And I believe this is where the misunderstanding is happening).

      In general, I think if you express more of how a man made you feel, you’ll automatically start showing appreciation for his masculine qualities without having to try too hard. No need to overthink it.

      This might help other women better understand this problem. And it might help men to understand the way women tend to admire.

      Finding something in general to admire about the one you’re dating is not the hard part. The hard part is finding something masculine to admire about him. Most women seem to have the tendency to express admiration for the feminine qualities first.

      I’d love to hear men’s thoughts on this. And maybe even Evan’s, if he has time.

       

       

  5. 5
    Nissa

    FWIW, Evan, I don’t think anything you said was terribly controversial. People who don’t listen, are people who don’t listen, no matter which ideology they espouse.

    Although now I am sitting here wondering what qualities of my own I consider feminine. Usually I’d say, my language skills as typical of women, but when people compliment me on that, I don’t feel feminine, I take it as a compliment on my intelligence (which feels gender neutral). I’d have to say that being considered hot does feel more ‘feminine’ to me….maybe that’s just because I know the man in question would not say that to another man, lol.

  6. 6
    Tron Swanson

    I’m relevant to the topic at hand, so hopefully Evan will allow me one of my super-rare posts.

    I partially agree with Evan. I certainly see many similarities between vocal feminists and vocal MRAs/MGTOWs, primarily in terms of anger and their insistence to focus on/obsess over their “gender enemies.” (Full disclosure: I am a mostly non-vocal MGTOW.)

    My two quibbles:

    1. Feminism is a movement, and MGTOW isn’t. Feminism is about achieving certain public goals, while MGTOW is more about private self-preservation. I think feminism and MRA…-ism have more in common. But, in my opinion, MGTOWs vastly outnumber MRAs, so they aren’t very relevant.

    2. I don’t think that all feminists are the same, or that all MGTOWs/MRAs all the same. And I’m not just talking about the extremes. Some women hate men for valid reasons, and some don’t. Some men hate women for valid reasons, and some don’t. Yes, Virginia, there are legit reasons to be categorically opposed to an entire gender. Obviously, for someone trying to give dating advice, “genders have serious problems that make them impossible for certain people to deal with” is a fact that is best denied, I’m sure.

    Not liking the gender you’re physically attracted to…well, it’s a nightmare. I sympathize with any man or woman in this situation. We should cut them (well, us) some slack, and not try to pressure them into pretending to be someone they aren’t, or believing something they don’t.

    1. 6.1
      kenley

      What are valid reasons to hate an enter gender?  That is basically saying I am going to hate billions of people I have never even met based on the actions of at most a handful of people — that is if their hatred is based on their own personal experience.  That kind of thinking doesn’t seem rational to me.

      1. 6.1.1
        Tron Swanson

        Obviously, it’s impossible to meet every member of a gender. But here are two reasons why I feel that it’s rational:

        1. If someone doesn’t embody or possess traits that their desired gender puts a high value on. I don’t think that all men are the same, or all women are the same…but the genders do possess certain tendencies, and they can be found in most of their members, in a spectrum that usually ranges from minimal to maximal. For instance, I lack many traits that women prioritize–in some cases, it’s my fault, and in some cases, it isn’t. Are there women who don’t care about those traits? Yes, but it’s a very small number, and that greatly shrinks my margin for error. Even when things are balanced, the vast majority of relationships ultimately fail. When you’re reliant on a tiny pool to draw from, well, it’s pretty much impossible. If the vast majority of a gender wants what you’re not, and it’s ruining your life, it’s entirely logical to be opposed to them as a whole.

        2. If someone has been hurt because of those types of traits. Many women have been hurt by men, and many men have been hurt by women–physically, emotionally, financially, you name it. If one has reason to be wary of a trait that the vast majority of a gender has–whether it’s loud and proud or watered-down–it’s completely logical to think that those traits are bad, and thus that the gender is bad. Maybe it’s easier to think about it in terms of animals. When I was little, I had a dog bite me…and for years after that, I was hyper-vigilant around any dogs that weren’t completely friendly. One hard look, one little growl, and I’d want to get away from them. I knew that they probably wouldn’t bite me, but I knew that they had the potential, because they were displaying a “lesser” version of aggressiveness.

        In truth, neither case involves saying that an entire group of people is bad. It’s actually “To some degree, they generally want the exact opposite of me, and it’s destroying me” or “To some degree, they generally possess a trait that hurt me in the past, and it makes me uncomfortable.” In my opinion, both of those ideas are logical.

        A match may not be an inferno, but it has the potential to create one…and either way, it’s still fire.

        1. Sylvana

          For the most part, I’d have to agree with you. Except for the hate and condemnation. I still don’t understand that. I understand being wary of the gender, and absolutely unwilling to ever put yourself out there again. But I do not get the jump from that to hating the whole gender.

          Even you, in just this reply, have provided me with somewhat of a contradiction. In the beginning, you say that it’s entirely logical to be opposed to them as a whole. Then later, you allow that, in truth, neither case involves saying that an entire group of people is bad.

          I fully understand hating the circumstances. I’m a very masculine woman who loves very masculine men. So I have close to zero options when it comes to relationships. Or at least close to zero when it comes to relationships that would make me happy. To top it off, I’m also very high testosterone, which causes me to feel and think more like a man, and makes it near impossible to even pretend to be more feminine.

          Do I hate the circumstances? Yes. Do I wish things were different? Absolutely. But they’re not. Do I hate or condemn all men just because the ones I want don’t desire me? Of course not. Do I condemn those men who do desire me for not meeting my criteria? Absolutely not. It doesn’t make any sense to me that anyone would.

          These cases should be under the care of a psychiatrist to help them with their issues. Because these are the kind of people who end up committing (possible mass) murder.

          Rather than continuing to try and find ways to stop hating yourself, you now focus your hatred on others.

          I don’t mean this as an attack, but your grief, suffering, loneliness, and feelings of being not good enough are bad enough. Add hatred as a coping mechanism, and the combination will eat you alive.

          The other thing I’m curious about is why the hatred is mainly focused on the gender which you desire, but doesn’t desire you back. Why is there no equal hatred for your competition?

          That cute little blond with the perfect body, perfect face, and just right feminine energy totally ticks me off. Because she has all the attributes I would love to have but never will have, no matter how hard I work to achieve them. I will not go as far as to say because she has everything I want, because I do not know her circumstances. She could be abused, dying of an illness, etc.

          So why the anger toward just one sex? Why not just declare that you hate every single person who is not in the same boat as you?

          As I said – what you explained makes sense to me. You’ve basically given up hope. So have I. But that doesn’t mean I’m gonna go marching with the extreme feminists, screaming I hate all men, or attacking them for who they are. There are a lot of wonderful men in this world.

           

           

           

           

        2. Tron Swanson

          Yes, it’s logical to be opposed to an entire gender (whether it’s men or women), because the majority of them have certain traits–whether those traits are dominant or recessive–and those traits can make it very difficult for people like us, who simply aren’t suited to what the other gender wants. I’m not saying a whole gender is “bad,” just that they have the potential to hurt people who don’t have the corresponding traits that they desire. So, since they have that potential, it’s reasonable to be wary of them in general.

          Also, for the record, I dislike men far more than I dislike women. But I’ve never really viewed other men as competition, because I’m not a competitive person. Yes, I’m technically competing with them, but my approach is so low-effort and passive and different that we might as well be playing entirely different games.

      2. 6.1.2
        Sum Guy

        Kenley

        I’d agree.

        Someone not liking you is not an affirmative act like a dog biting you.  Rather it’s them declining a request by you to do something for you.

        The only time you are “hurt” when someone declines your request for that they do something for you is when  is when you have  right that says they have to do that thing for you.

        I would say the only person who has a “right” to being loved by someone is that a child has a right to be loved by their parents.

  7. 7
    Pam

    This is perfect, Evan!   Had you released this when you wrote it, it may not of had the same impact as it does today… The political climate’s social issues..MGTOW and Ultra-Feminism ..weren’t as heated just a mere year ago.  I appreciate you for this perspective.  It is truth! 👏🙌✨- From a moderately conservative, non man hating woman  😁✨💃🏻

  8. 8
    Katherine

    Good observations Evan. I believe that we need to celebrate the good things in all people and most importantly that women and men are different. My partner is shy, selfish at times and socially awkward BUT he is a good decent loving man who makes me laugh. He cares deeply and is the first to cry at the sad bits in a movie. I don’t want him to be more like me, I love his masculinity and that chatting in the phone is not his thing, even though it drives me crazy.

    The opposing camps of hard core feminists and male chauvinists are equally rigid in their views, hence their inability to see the other side of the conversation. The same lack of empathy is played out daily in the political sphere also.

  9. 9
    Sum Guy

    Evan,

    This is perfect!  I sometimes wonder if we live in an age of polarization…or maybe the internet has amplified polarizing voices.    What ever happened to wanting to bridge differences instead of erecting fortresses of self-righteousness?

     

    Your voice of reason is so good to hear.

     

  10. 10
    Addie

    Good one, Evan. Actually very important! Well said. Couldn’t add a thing. (Doesn’t mean I won’t though.) This does not need to be picked apart and overthought. It’s pretty logical and obvious. It’d be nice if we could give up all the defensiveness and be generous. For women especially, I think all we need to do is open our eyes. See men instead of overthinking what we’ve heard from others. Are they really monsters?  I suppose a few are, but mostly no. They’re human like us, just doing things in a masculine way. Isn’t that what we want?

    1. 10.1
      Sylvana

      I mostly agree with you, Addie. But we have to be careful to dismiss too many bad behaviors as simply doing things in a masculine way. Short of the true monsters (rapists, abusers, etc.), there is a reason why the “masculine” has gotten such a bad reputation.

      Men and women alike have forever excused men’s degrading, insulting, and disrespectful behavior by hiding behind the “that’s just the masculine way” excuse.

      There is a fine line to be walked sometimes, particularly when a negative instinct clashes with a positive instinct, where not applying common sense and going with the positive instinct cannot be excused.

  11. 11
    Marika

    Emily said

    He’s considerate of what you need, and that’s to be appreciated and acknowledged. But asking 5 times how the coffee was? I’m going to get slammed for saying this, but … don’t you find that draining?

    I almost finished that post by saying that I think you need to find a man who needs less admiration. I didn’t because, well I don’t know you. But now I’m confident in saying that wouldn’t work for you. My first boyfriend didn’t need much at all. And we dated for 5 years. So they do exist! You need a dude who’s very self-contained I think.

    For me, I don’t mind going what I consider above & beyond in showing admiration. It’s a win-win for me. And I’ve accepted that a lot of men (or at least the ones I’m attracted to) need a fair amount to be happy and feel good in the relationship. For people like me who thrive on being needed (perhaps too much) it comes quite easily. But I don’t that’s you. A little bit is probably necessary in most relationships, but find a guy who doesn’t need it as much, or you will feel drained.

    1. 11.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      I almost finished that post by saying that I think you need to find a man who needs less admiration. I didn’t because, well I don’t know you. But now I’m confident in saying that wouldn’t work for you.

      I’m not knocking your boyfriend. I hope it didn’t come across that way, but I would be drained by anyone who needed that much reassurance, whether it was a boyfriend or a friend. But that’s me.

      1. 11.1.1
        Katie

        “I would be drained by anyone who needed that much reassurance, whether it was a boyfriend or a friend.”

        Don’t group reassurance with admiration. Needing reassurance is a different thing from appreciating respect and admiration. And someone who NEEDS a lot of reassurance brings to mind a very unattractive person, male or female, and I expect that’s the case for most people since self-confidence is sexy as hell, and needing reassurance is very much NOT confident.

        Confident guys don’t need reassurance or validation from a partner, but they do love to feel like the woman that they adore ADMIRES them. Expressing too much admiration is phony, but the right amount for the right traits is very much appreciated by guys.

        1. Emily, the original

          Katie,
          Don’t group reassurance with admiration. Needing reassurance is a different thing from appreciating respect and admiration. And someone who NEEDS a lot of reassurance brings to mind a very unattractive person, male or female, and I expect that’s the case for most people since self-confidence is sexy as hell, and needing reassurance is very much NOT confident.
          I was thinking that, too. Needing too much reassurance comes off as insecure.
          Confident guys don’t need reassurance or validation from a partner, but they do love to feel like the woman that they adore ADMIRES them. Expressing too much admiration is phony, but the right amount for the right traits is very much appreciated by guys.
          For me, anyway, I’ll admire the big-ticket items. Character, Accomplishment, Emotional Intelligence, Compassion, etc.

      2. 11.1.2
        Marika

        I understand, Emily. It’s not about reassurance about them as a person. That is needy and a turn off. Those examples were to show how you can tell what they want to be admired for.

        On a separate, but related note, men often, in my experience, do need you to let them know quite clearly & often that they’re pleasing you. Or specifically how to, if they aren’t. Far more so than women. Which is really quite nice, when you think about it.

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          On a separate, but related note, men often, in my experience, do need you to let them know quite clearly & often that they’re pleasing you. Or specifically how to, if they aren’t. Far more so than women. Which is really quite nice, when you think about it

          I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one.  🙂

          My mind, of course, (because THAT’S HOW I’M WIRED — had to get that one, in, YAG) starts to wonder to … ah … sexual stuff and … how much reassurance is necessary? It varies, of course, but too much is too much.

           

  12. 12
    Marika

    KK said

    That would drive me crazy. I have a friend like this. Wonderful person, but I couldn’t be in a (daily) relationship with someone that needed CONSTANT reassurance. ONE sincere “Thank you” and a hug or kiss should be enough IMO.
    Ditto to what I said to Emily above.
    The my hero thing: I learned a long time ago that what may seem over the top to a woman in terms of admiration is often just right for a man.
    It’s probably the way they feel about our reaction to getting flowers or a surprise neckrub or whatever floats your boat. They’re thinking no idea why she gets so touched by this, but, hey I like it 😉

  13. 13
    Jeremy

    Marika, I’ve been very impressed with your comments on this thread.  I think you get it, and have often phrased it better than I could.

     

    KK, the situation you describe is about validation and the thrill of conquest.  Some guys get off on that.  And you said it exactly right – they are not predicting what will make them happy in the future.

     

    Emily, It’s not about needing constant reassurance, it’s about occasional validation.  I don’t need to always be smarter than my wife, nor do I need her to constantly fawn over me.  In fact, I find it attractive when she does or says something smart or out-thinks me in a discussion.  Super hot.  But occasionally, I do need to hear “that was a great idea, I wouldn’t have thought of that.”  Occasionally.

     

    Nissa, I think there is a difference between being self confident vs needing occasional validation.  Confidence should arise from within, but self validation works about as well as self-tickling for most of us.  We sometimes need or crave some validation from our partners, and it is our job as partners to provide it.  As long as we feel the amount is something we are ok with giving.  If we don’t feel ok with giving it, it is a mismatch.  And as I wrote earlier, the best relationships are the ones where this never comes up, because the couple does it for each other naturally.

    1. 13.1
      Emily, the original

      Jeremy,

      But occasionally, I do need to hear “that was a great idea, I wouldn’t have thought of that.”  Occasionally.

      I don’t have a problem with that. As I posted, I can also admire the big-ticket items: a man’s compassion, humor, etc. It’s the small-ticket items I would take issue with. This is just me, but with Marika’s example, I would feel drained if a man needed me to appreciate and acknowledge a cup of coffee FIVE times. Does that not sound excessive to you? You write about respect. I would lose respect for someone who needed that much encouragement.

      1. 13.1.1
        Marika

        I may have exaggerated, Emily. It was probably about two or three 😊

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          I may have exaggerated, Emily. It was probably about two or three 

          As long as repeated assurances aren’t necessary in ALL situations …  🙂

    2. 13.2
      Marika

      Thanks for the always appreciated validation, Jeremy!

      Would you say you maybe needed a bit more validation and reassurance when dating your wife, compared to now? I think the dynamic can shift somewhat once you’re in a committed relationship / marriage. But in dating, a guy wanting some feedback / comfort/ whatever word that he’s making you happy is quite common, IME, reasonable and actually quite sweet.

      Emily, get your head out of the gutter. Not everything is about sex!!😉

      1. 13.2.1
        Jeremy

        Marika, “Thanks for the always appreciated validation”. 🙂   It’s about knowing what will make a person happy and doing it, because you WANT them to feel happy and it costs you nothing.  We all want our partners to feel happy, but we don’t always know how to get them there.  Know that they need validation, know what they need it for, and provide it.

         

        Would you say you maybe needed a bit more validation and reassurance when dating your wife compared to now?”  There is a difference between validation and reassurance.  When dating, I think I needed more reassurance.  I suppose very confident men simply do something for a woman and assume she will like it.  But that never made sense to me.  How can I know she will like something without her feedback?  So when I was learning about my wife when we dated, I would look for her feedback.  And before Emily asks, I wouldn’t necessarily ask her (verbally) whether she liked something, but I’d look for her non-verbal cues.  If someone likes something sexually, you shouldn’t have to ask – they should make their pleasure evident (and likewise if they do not like something).  But if they don’t give you non-verbal cues, you gotta ask.  So my need for reassurance is less than it was.  My need for validation is perhaps GREATER.  Why greater?  Because (and I think this is something married women can relate to as well) when we are dating, our partners give validation naturally.  They dress up to see us.  They are on their best behavior.  Our jokes are funny, our opinions matter, seeing us is a privilege.  When we are married, most of that goes out the window and falls into a routine.  And so the validation that would happen naturally when dating does not occur when married.  So each partner has to put in a little extra effort to provide it.

        1. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          And before Emily asks, I wouldn’t necessarily ask her (verbally) whether she liked something, but I’d look for her non-verbal cues.  If someone likes something sexually, you shouldn’t have to ask – they should make their pleasure evident (and likewise if they do not like something).  But if they don’t give you non-verbal cues, you gotta ask.  

          As long as I don’t have to hold your hand through the entire process and direct you (and you don’t want me to have a pre-event conversation where I tell you what I want you to do like I’m selecting options from a menu — yes, that’s happened), we’d be fine.   🙂

  14. 14
    Theodora

    I think many MGTOWs don’t hate women, actually. They just made a costs/benefits analysis of what a commited relationship/marriage means in the contemporary Western world and particularly în the Anglosphere and they decided they have too many obligations and not so many  benefits.

    Besides, for some people their pursuits in life are simply more important than marriage. Isaac Newton and Nikola Tesla were a sort of MGTOWs avant la lettre because they found more satisfaction in their solitary intellectual pursuits than in relationships with the opposite sex. The same can be said about WGTOWs like Jane Austen and Emily Dickinson. By the end of the day, their choice was better for humanity.

    1. 14.1
      SS

      This comment is almost disgusting.  Mgtow’s don’t respect or understand women, which is almost the same thing as the way that you put it.   A cost benefit analysis of dating??  I hope those men* are alright with no affection until marriage and with a bIG ring also..  Also, Wgtow??   Emily Dickinson??  woman, stop.

      1. 14.1.1
        Sum Guy

        Hi SS,

        Not sure if it is MGTOW or WGTOW for those examples, it may be those people were just not that sexual of creatures, so that part was not a big deal to them.  Also marriage and sexuality was much different then.  For example, there are also rumors Sir Isaac was gay…a certain hard labor offense back then, let alone his own religious guilt over it.

         

        I will agree I’ve never seen a MGTOW website where there wasn’t a lot of whining and blame put on women.

         

        Yet you need to realize, the whole point of the MGTOW (I think) is they are moving beyond the want for female affection, no desire to ever get married, no desire to ever have a committed relationship.  Some of it is defensive I’m sure, some anger, a large number may be just not as into sex as they are told they are supposed to be.

        1. SS

          Thank you for your comment.

    2. 14.2
      Tron Swanson

      When I was much younger–and long before I’d ever heard of MGTOW–I actually sat down and did a cost/benefit analysis of pursuing women. I was being pressured by friends (well, more like acquaintances) to go to bars/clubs and generally hit on women in public. Though never much of a math person, I quickly realized how much time, money, and effort I’d be wasting. And it didn’t sound even remotely enjoyable. Some men may enjoy the chase, but I’m not one of them.

      It absolutely astonishes me, how much men pour into first dates/unsuccessful dates. To this day, I’ve spent zero dollars on dates, and I’ve used that money–and the time and energy I’ve saved–to do things I actually care about.

      1. 14.2.1
        SS

         

        But, are you dating?  This is supposed to be for dating advice.?

        1. Sum Guy

          My guess is no.

           

          If you see no fun in dating, or view it only as a chase, one completely misses the more substantial reason: getting to know someone.

           

          Of course getting to know someone is unimportant if you view relationships as only about sex or money.

        2. Tron Swanson

          No, I’ve never dated. I’m just here to pick up beneficial data, and to contribute to conversations in a way that improves demographic representation. Women are much better off knowing that guys like me exist, and that we aren’t all caricatures.

        3. SS

          Women know that men that aren’t sensitive to their needs exist.  I for one dated a complete loser like that at one point.  It was horrible.  I would say most already know that there can be insensitive men out there.

      2. 14.2.2
        Kenley

        I am curious at to why you believe that women are better of knowing that you exist?  You aren’t interested in dating or being in a relationship.  You are going to stay out of their way , and I am assuming that you don’t create any obstacles for women as they even don’t even  notice you according to you.    So, what is the benefit of knowing that men such as you exist?  Please know that I am genuinely curious as to why you feel this way because  I can’t think of a reason.

        1. Sum Guy

          I think woman do know men like Tron exist, but like you say it doesn’t really matter.

          I know heterosexual women exist who don’t need or want a man, their friends and/or pets are enough and I probably even have a pretty good grasp why they think men are not worth it.  Great, more power to them, live at let live I say.

          Yet they really have nothing to say to me dating/relationship wise as I have no interest in disturbing their calm.

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