Nov10

The One Thing You Should Absolutely NOT Do When Dating

12:30 pm on Nov 10th 2009 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

141 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Online Dating Tips & Advice

141 Responses to “The One Thing You Should Absolutely NOT Do When Dating”

1. Melissa Nov 10th 2009 at 01:06 pm 1

   I couldn’t disagree with Kristy more as far as her logic for not giving the guy Lorraine went on a date with a 2nd chance.
   I currently have 4 or 5 “backups” because I’m focusing most of my attention on one guy at the moment.   I’ve told a couple prospects the honest truth of what my delay has been in scheduling a date, and they all take it in stride asking me to contact them if and when the guy I’m focusing on doesen’t work out.  Why is it that men take this stuff objectively but often women tend to get “offended” at the same information?
   The only thing that guy is guilty of is being HONEST.    If he had made up a lie and said “I can’t see you right now because I’m taking care of my sick mother”… he’d be a saint, but instead he chose to be honest.  I think it shows a tremendous amount about his character that he’s focusing on one woman instead of trying to juggle 10… he’s giving her honesty on top of it.  Why would we fault him for this?
   Waiting to see the outcome of a handful of dates with one guy or girl while still letting your  ”backups” know your interested,  is not “sloppy seconds”;  it’s common courtesy, respectful and being authentic.
    

2. Robyn Nov 10th 2009 at 03:56 pm 2

   Yes, it is a dent to the ego to hear that a guy does not have you as the sole object of his affections when you first meet/first make contact with each other online.
   But if you hardly know each other, how could you reasonably expect him to immediately discard his other female “friends”? Ditto it would be unreasonable of him to expect you to discard your male “friends” when you barely know him.

   The challenge here is to find a balance between being a convenient sloppy second (being content with being anyone & everyone’s 2nd or 3rd choice, regardless of how they treat you) and a prima-donna (insisting on being “the one and only” all the time from the get-go).
   And it is quite a challenge – in my experience anyway – especially when you’re female & north of 40 age-wise. Because there just aren’t as many single guys around as when you were 22, and it’s not as simple anymore (what with divorce, children, ex-wives etc. etc. – all that stuff they call “baggage”…). So – bluntly – you don’t have as many options…. but that doesn’t mean you drop all “standards” either.

   I’d rather have honesty from a man re: his intentions - whether there are other women in his life / he intends to continue keeping other women in his life. Then I know where I stand.

3. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 10th 2009 at 04:37 pm 3

   I think I’d be thrilled to know I stayed in the back of his mind long enough for him to get back to me even after having a potential bad dating experience. I don’t see why that’s a bad thing. I think even more so since he was honest about taking one date at a time. That’s a very respectable thing to do, and honestly, I think I would do the same thing if I was in his position.

4. A-L Nov 10th 2009 at 04:55 pm 4

   I’m in general agreement with this post.  But I just wanted to say that you may want to double-check your mailing list, as I’ve gotten newsletters from you before (including after you redid your website, I believe) but I didn’t receive this one.  Checked the spam folder and it wasn’t there either.

5. Sayanta Nov 10th 2009 at 05:22 pm 5

   Robyn-
   Maybe it’s just my bad luck, but my personal experience has been that there are never any single guys around regardless of age.

6. Jayne Nov 10th 2009 at 05:36 pm 6

   Plain and simple, I think Lorraine is a chump and she’s setting herself up to be played. Fine, he’s being honest, and he’s entitled to date other women.   No problem there.  But the whole “I’ll get back to you in case the person I really want doesn’t work out for me” thing really sticks in my throat.  If someone said something like that to me I would have slammed the phone down before he could even finish the sentence.   As another poster stated, he knows Lorraine is hot for him so he’s the one with all the power and control.  I would be very surprised if he doesn’t proceed to jerk her around like a trained monkey.  I hope I’m wrong, truly I do, but . . .

7. Selena Nov 10th 2009 at 06:02 pm 7

   Seems obvious to me there is a huge difference between exchanging a few emails and phone calls with someone and dating them for months – a distinction Lorrain grasped, but Kristy apparantly doesn’t.  The guy in question was completely honorable.

   Sloppy seconds?  ??  How many times have you dated someone for a few weeks, couple months only to conclude they just aren’t for you? What is wrong with giving someone you “met” earlier a chance to get to know you if that were the case?  I haven’t done internet dating, but I thought the presumption was anyone you met via that venue was dating others unless they said otherwise. And not to expect exclusivity from the start.  Something to be aware of in offline dating as well.

   I’d say the one thing you should absolutely not do when dating is to assume your particular expectations are the same as someone elses without them being verbalized.

8. Sam P. Nov 10th 2009 at 08:15 pm 8

   I’m with everyone else on the subject of giving someone a second chance who at one point had to put you on hold for another relationship.  Sometimes you might meet a great person a week after another great person.  If you have integrity, and you want to watch out for your own self-interest too in case the first relationship ends after a few weeks, you don’t date two people simultaneously.  If you’ve said no to someone after a first date because you met somebody else that person is going to have a harder time forgiving you than if you put him or her on hold a few days before a date was supposed to take place.  A rejection hurts worse after you’ve gotten dressed for, invested hope in, driven, and possibly paid for a first date than it hurts if it’s just phone correspondence that’s being suspended. 

   I email multiple girls at a time, but only date one, so sometimes I have to suspend things.  I don’t like doing it, but I think I’m doing the right thing for them, me, and the girl I actually am seeing.

9. Erika Nov 10th 2009 at 08:53 pm 9

   When you’re online dating, it’s always best to have a pair and a spare. I don’t know where I heard that line–it might have been here. But the point is that we all need two or three irons in the fire in case one doesn’t work out. And then if it doesn’t, the rejection doesn’t hurt so much knowing you have two other guys in the wings!
   Maybe people don’t like being thought of that way. But I once told a guy who emailed me that I was seeing someone, and if he didn’t mind, I would write to him if the other fella didn’t pan out. The other fella didn’t pan out, and guy #2 and I went out on two dates.
   He didn’t pan out either. But, it was good to know that option exists.
   Whenever I get rejected by someone I really like,  I remind myself how nice it is to feel those sparkly feelings for someone else, even if they don’t return them. How often does that happen? Not often enough.

10. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 10th 2009 at 09:10 pm 10

    =( Jayne. You sound like you’ve had some bad experiences, but you could just use your instinct after a first date to really determine if it was a bad idea. Why not? Give it a try. If he’s nice, great. If he’s what you said he could be, then let him go.

11. Sayanta Nov 10th 2009 at 09:49 pm 11

    Jayne- #6-

    You said it perfectly. I’m in total agreement…I’d rather be a nun than someone’s backup. (At this point, I’m closer to the first one anyway….LOL ).

12. A-L Nov 11th 2009 at 04:50 am 12

    I think it’s important to delineate between whether or not the two of you have actually met in-person and gone out, and whether or not this has just been a phone/internet experience.  If the latter, I definitely think it’s okay to be put on hold.  Maybe I started corresponding with a guy earlier and so we went on a date earlier.  Or the correspondence with both guys began around the same time but one guy asked me out sooner.  If I was the type of person who only went out with 1 person at a time and asked to put the 2nd guy on hold, it had nothing to do with the 2nd person at all, and only timing.  Now if you’ve actually been on a date with the person, you are clearly their second choice and timing didn’t have much to do with it.  In this case I can understand why some people would rather not date the person again in the future.

13. downtowngal Nov 11th 2009 at 05:07 am 13

    I agree w Jayne #6.  Though it’s true, you meet someone like this and you don’t know each other and most people DO do this, there’s something to be said about being classy when handing the situation. 

    Women like a guy who makes them feel special, especially at the beginning, as the man is the one who should be trying to impress the woman.  Letting her know she’s on your B list won’t cut it.

    Besides, I don’t meet up w a guy and tell him how I’ve been dating numerous others from Match so let’s see how he stacks up – I concentrate on my time w him.

    Honesty schmonesty – this guy should have kept his mouth shut then asked her out when appropriate.  And then said, “sorry I’ve been out of touch, was caught up w things but was wondering if you’d like to go out sometime”.  Then, if things go well, tell her once they get to know each other. 

     

14. Shalini Nov 11th 2009 at 05:21 am 14

    Even though that sentence “I’ll get back to you if things dont work out” does seem a bit disrespectful, i guess its only the way you say it makes it so. I have told men i cant date them because i am dating someone else. Only i don’t say i will get back to them. Its upto them if they are still available. (I guess saying i’ll get back to you if it does not work out seems like the guy does not expect you to be with anyone else.)
    But still there is nothing wrong with forgiving people and giving them a second chance. They might surprise you… Keeping grudges never gives good results. You are the only one who ends up hurt in the end with no real mistake of the other person if you think about it objectively.

15. Lance Nov 11th 2009 at 07:06 am 15

    Dating is sort of like business, as illustrated by this email. Sometimes the timing isn’t right, but if you keep the connection alive and stay open minded the opportunity can happen later on with all the fireworks you want. Bravo to Lorraine for sticking with it.

16. Sayanta Nov 11th 2009 at 07:14 am 16

    I personally think that Lorraine’s kind of desperate. Sadly, a lot of women in this country are, right now, because of the lack (whether it’s true or a result of the media circus is another topic) of eligible men. So, when people are desperate, they hold on to crumbs. And I think being someone’s backup is crumbs, regardless of whether you’ve met them, etc. And of course, the way the guy explained it to her was completely insulting, imho. If he’s talking to her like this now, what kind of stuff is he going to be saying if they get more deeply involved?

    I know everyone talks about compromise as a necessary part of dating, but there’s compromise, and there’s behavior that smacks of low self-worth (or fear that no other man is going to come along). I think this is more of the latter.

17. Selena Nov 11th 2009 at 07:58 am 17

    @ Downtowngirl #13

    How should he have kept his mouth shut and asked her out when it was appropriate?  They had exchanged a few emails and calls – should he have abrubtly ceased all contact with her without explanation when he decided to focus on someone else? Only to call her out of the blue for a date weeks later when he realized that relationship wasn’t going to work out?

    The disappearing, then reappearing act would have put me off much more than the honesty this guy showed. He DID ask her out when it was appropriate and I imagine he did so knowing that she might have found someone else herself during the interval they weren’t communication.

    Really what is to be pissed off about? They hadn’t even met in person yet for Pete’s sake.

18. Honey Nov 11th 2009 at 08:32 am 18

    I think the people (including Lorraine) who are offended by the idea of being “sloppy seconds” need to get a grip.  Should Evan’s wife be angry that she’s “sloppy 318th”?  Solipsism much?
    Guess what, every time you meet someone new, both you and that other person have dated LOTS of other people.  And since the whole point of online dating is to be able to meet a bunch of people at once so you can get through the numbers game faster, you can’t blame the guy for corresponding with – or even going out casually – with more than one person at once.
    It’s a little shocking to me that people are actually suggesting that he be disingenuous with her in order to protect her feelings.  It seems to me that the guy did her a favor, both by being honest and by putting her in a situation that highlights her own self-centeredness, because if she doesn’t get over that she’s never going to be a great partner for anyone.

19. Jennifer Nov 11th 2009 at 09:21 am 19

    @A-L #12- I agree with you.
    If Lorraine and the guy had already met and he decided to pick woman X over her, then  clearly she came up a bit short in his eyes and it would be reasonable for her to feel slighted. 
    But since they only had phone and email correspondance  his decision to continue dating the woman he had already met, in order to see if it went anywhere, doesn’t seem strange to me at all. And Lorraine’s acceptance of a date with him after the fact doesn’t automatically make her desperate  in my eyes.

20. Joe Nov 11th 2009 at 11:59 am 20

    How do you know Lorraine wasn’t trolling for guys herself during the time in between the guy’s “you’re my backup” call and his “wanna go out” call?  Would that be dishonest or desperate?  I don’t think so.

21. Heather Nov 11th 2009 at 01:46 pm 21

    1)  Where do you find all these guys to date – so that you have back-ups and spares and all that?
    2)  How can you have such high expectations for a FIRST date?  You don’t even know the guy, let alone hold some special place in your heart for him!  Why should you expect him to feel anything for you, given the same set of facts.

    I can relate to this a bit – but I usually wait until the third date to decide if the guy is worth my while.  I guess that’s way too fast and maybe I should be totally open to other options and uncommitted in my affections until I get an engagement ring (?)  Being that I don’t even seem to be getting to the first date anymore that seems like a long way off.

    I did that one thing you say I should absolutely not do – I pretty much gave up on dating – online or otherwise.  I became cynical and hopeless.  Not because the few guys I went out with rejected me but because nobody but old men, horny 23-year-olds, bitter bearded men, and creepy foreigners ask me out anymore.  I’m not going to go out on a date with someone who isn’t right for me or turns me off from the very beginning.  What’s the point?

    When women are giving up on love - believe me, there’s good reason for it!

22. Karl R Nov 11th 2009 at 02:01 pm 22

    Jayne said: (#6)
    “I think Lorraine is a chump and she’s setting herself up to be played. [...]  If someone said something like that to me I would have slammed the phone down before he could even finish the sentence.”
    Sayanta said: (#11)
    “I’d rather be a nun than someone’s backup.”

    You two really sound like you have low self-esteem.  If I buy a couple books from the bookstore, I’m going to read the one that seems most interesting first (based on the description on the back, the cover illustration, the author).  I won’t know which one is my favorite book until I read both of them.

    And if someone decides to bypass me when all they’ve done is glanced at the cover, read the back and skimmed the table of contents, why should that affect my self-esteem?  They clearly haven’t taken the time to get to know me.  And I think my best qualities are the internal ones.

    If they decide to come back and get to know me better at a later date, that’s fine … if  I’m still available.

    Sayanta said: (#16)
    “when people are desperate, they hold on to crumbs. And I think being someone’s backup is crumbs,”
    
    Do you realize the easiest way to avoid holding onto crumbs?  It’s to have a backup (of some sort).  I’m in an exclusive relationship right now, and I have no expectation that it will end anytime soon.  But if it does, I know who I will ask out next.  She doesn’t know that I would ask her out; so even if events do transpire that way, she might not see herself as a backup.

    And it’s largely an accident of timing that I ended up dating my girlfriend instead of this other woman.  I had been planning to ask the other woman out, but decided to postpone doing so for a few weeks.  (I was about to go on a cruise, and wanted to avoid any ethical dilemmas if I met someone on the cruise.  I started dating my girlfriend on that cruise.)

    If my current relationship becomes toxic for some reason, there’s no reason for me to cling to the crumbs of that relationship.  I have another option (and another option after that, and so on).  When a previous girlfriend pulled a two week vanishing act, I exercised that option.

    And this other woman might not be available in the future.  That’s a possibility I chose to accept when I decided to pursue a serious relationship with my girlfriend.

    I’ve been on both sides of this situation, and I don’t have a problem with it either way.

    Jayne said: (#6)
    “he knows Lorraine is hot for him so he’s the one with all the power and control.”
    
    How do people dream up these crazy ideas?  It’s dating, not a wrestling match.

    If I’m attracted to a lady, I let her know.  If she feels the same way, she’ll let me know.  If she doesn’t, I’ll find someone else I’m attracted to.  (See my previous comments about options.)

    A woman can’t control me just because I find her attractive.  She can’t even influence me until I trust her … and that trust has to be earned over time.  Until then, there has to be a certain degree of quid pro quo.  If there’s not, then it has the makings of a toxic relationship, so I exercise my other options.

    Lorraine said: (original post)
    “he told me he was dating someone else and that he would call if things didn’t work out,”
    Sayanta said: (#16)
    “the way the guy explained it to her was completely insulting, imho.”
    
    Essentially the man was saying that it was his responsibility to initiate the next contact.  What should he have done instead?  Asked her to check back with him every few weeks to see whether he was available?  Only someone truly desperate would agree to do that.

23. Jayne Nov 11th 2009 at 02:21 pm 23

    @Shalini #14 — my point exactly.  It’s not the fact that he chose to date someone else that is disrespectful.  It’s the fact that he presumed that Lorraine would have no other prospects so of course she would wait around to see if he came back.   And lucky her, he did.  (Insert sarcasm here.)   If he had just said “I’ve met someone else, I’m sorry, ” that would have been an entirely different story.  Hurtful, maybe, but not disrespectful.  THEN if things hadn’t worked out with the first woman and he wanted to take a chance on whether Lorraine was still available, he could give her a call.   And she would accept.  Or not.   But this assumption of “I’ve got Lorraine as backup” is just rude and arrogant.  Then again, he DID have Lorraine as backup, so what do I know?

24. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 11th 2009 at 02:23 pm 24

    Ok so since he was dating someone before her, we should expect him to to just lie and say he wasn’t dating someone else or just let the one he was dating before her go? Or are you all assuming that because she wasn’t immediately chosen over the other woman that she wasn’t as “good?” Judging by the intelligence of the people that seem to post here regularly, I know that you all understand that no one really expects to be “exclusive” directly after a first date. Dating in the first 1-2 weeks is pretty much fair game and even then, it depends. He could’ve taken on two women at one time, but instead he devoted his attention to one of them. AND he was *gasp* honest about it. We never would’ve even heard this story if he hadn’t come forward and said something. If there is a better way of telling someone “thanks, but no thanks” why not just come right out and say it? I thought it may have seemed harsh, but if you think about it. How else could you really say it? I thought about it for a while, but I tend to be a pretty straight forward person. So that seemed like the best way in my opinion.  Sometimes you can’t sugarcoat things, and we really should be encouraging people to be honest not the other way around. I don’t mean to sound rude, but I am really confused as to which alternative would be better! >.<

25. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 11th 2009 at 02:38 pm 25

    ALSO, wouldn’t you be pretty thrilled if you were in the other woman’s position?(the woman he was currently dating) Maybe she didn’t know, but if she did know that he turned down other dates because he wanted to try with her only? That’s the risk you take when you date someone online. The whole principle is to find people to date, but to actually find a man that accepts one date at a time?! Or knowing that you constantly have competition, which you probably do anyways. But at least it’s not as cut throat. And REALISTICALLY… do you really think you’ve never dated a guy that was secretly dating other women? really? REALLY? And you couldn’t be guilty of the same thing? If you’re not the type to date two people at a time (I’m not either. People drive me insane as it is.) then how would you tell another man/woman that you like them but you’re kind of already dating one person? Ok… I fail to see the down side here. I’ve tried. What is it just, ladies?! Again,… not trying to be rude. so… breathe. vielen danken! 

26. JB Nov 11th 2009 at 02:46 pm 26

    Nonsense with this “sloppy seconds” garbage this is DATING. A couple of years ago I was supposed to meet an online woman for an initial meeting drink and in the meantime a woman that I had met at a singles event a year earlier and I ran into each other and started to date. So I was honest with the online gal because I don’t date more than 1 woman at a time for logical reasons that are too numerous to name here (ie: time,money,scheduling conflicts,aggravation..lol.) I just told her “I want to see where this other thing goes” and when it didn’t after a few weeks the online gal still had her profile up so I called her and we dated a couple times.The point is why should MY or anyone’s value be lowered for being honest. You “sloppy seconds” people have to get with the program and learn how dating,especially online dating works and be a little more open minded.

27. Heather Nov 11th 2009 at 03:35 pm 27

    I reiterate:  WHERE do you find these backup people?

    This is what I have never understood about about dating.  My grandmother got on my case once for complaining that a guy rejected me after I made it known to him that I was interested.  She said I should be letting the men court me.  My sister, listening in on this, looked at her with a very straight face and said, “Yeah, but, where are all these men?”  My grandmother had no response. 

    There are certain limitations for a woman when she has to bide her time and wait for the men to do the asking out.  For me that limitation has meant I don’t date a lot when I’m single.  For the lack of ‘back up’ dates, I have become something of a serial monogamist without dating skills, since I have gotten the clear impression that I don’t have a lot of options. 

    I think what’s rubbing women the wrong way on this topic is applying our point of view to the subject.  Men tend to have the back up dates, we don’t, or perceive that we don’t because we aren’t in control of the first stage of courtship.  We don’t do the initial selection – we have to wait to see who will ask us out and go from there.  It may be nature, but that doesn’t make it fair, and that’s what ticks us off and makes us insecure.

28. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 11th 2009 at 03:55 pm 28

    I still don’t see how this is offensive, Jayne. I understand what you’re saying, and I have to tell you. I don’t think he meant it that way. It’s not going to kill her to go out on one date to find out what he’s really like. You couldn’t make that judgement based on a sentence. Maybe he did…. but MAYBE HE DIDN’T. There’s no way to be certain. (unless you give him a shot ) Don’t be so hard on guys, Jayne! Give a guy a chance.

29. Selena Nov 11th 2009 at 03:58 pm 29

    What, in that brief letter leads some of you to believe he presumed Lorraine had no other prospects and would anxiously be waiting for him to pop back into her life for crumbs?  Why should he presume such a thing? Wouldn’t it be more logical for him to wonder if she found someone else while he was unavailable? (And took a chance she hadn’t?)  What makes you think Lorraine was sitting around hoping he would call? Why don’t you think she might have been communicating with other men? After all, she’d never even gone out with the guy.

    Re-read her letter. I think some of you are projecting big time on this.

30. Ruby Nov 11th 2009 at 04:09 pm 30

    Generally, when a man says he’s met someone else, he’s letting you down gently.

    On the other hand, I’ve dated people who continued to date others while seeing me, and men who focused on me exclusively. I’d prefer the latter, even if things don’t work out. And most dates/relationships don’t.

    I doubt that Lorraine’s friend assumed that she would automatically be available. He just wanted to know if it would be ok to contact her in case things didn’t work out with the other person.That’s what dating is for, right? She could easily have met someone else or changed her mind in the interim and it would have been his loss.

31. A-L Nov 11th 2009 at 04:25 pm 31

    Heather asked, “WHERE do you find these backup people?”
     
    I used to be in the same shoes you’re in Heather.  Guys asking me out in real life were few and far between, and almost invariably, I wasn’t interested in them.  Even taking gender neutral classes like photography would be filled with other women, or men who were already taken.  Then, I found online dating.
     
    I was never one of the women that Evan sometimes talks about who would get 100 e-mails in a day.  But I was far more visible to a much bigger population, and the guys would contact me.  And I also took the initiative to browse the guys’ profiiles and would lob an e-mail to those that I found interesting.   When I was putting forth effort in dating, I usually had a spare available, though I frequently ran through the spares.  And admittedly, there were times when things were pretty dry.  But online dating was the best way for me to meet guys  who were interested in dating me.  And now I’ve been with the same guy for nearly a year.  (Side note: WOOHOO!)

32. Jayne Nov 11th 2009 at 04:49 pm 32

    @Karl #22 Aren’t you the one who was stuck on telling us all about showering and  clean fingernails a few blog posts back?  Yes, I think so.
    Oh, and congrats and all about the gf, but my two cents says that this woman you plan to date if things don’t work out IS a backup, whether she knows it or not.  Accident of timing my eye.  If you had REALLY been intent on dating her you would have said something to the effect of “I really like you but I’ve had this major trip planned for X amount of time and I cant/don’t want to cancel.  Can I call you when I get back?”  You wouldn’t have been thinking of any “ethical dilemmas” because you would have been focused on HER.  The fact that you kept your options open tells me that you maybe kind of liked her but thought you could find something better.  Which is totally OK, since (and this is the important part) you didn’t feel the need to inform her AFTER the cruise (where you met your gf) that “Hey, I found someone I really want but if things don’t work out, I’m keeping you as Plan B.”
    Why is this so difficult to understand?

33. downtowngal Nov 11th 2009 at 05:13 pm 33

    Selena #17, my point was that – taking what Lorraine said at face value – he should have been more tactful.  We’ve all dated multiple people at once, but there’s no need to shove it in the other person’s face.
    If , after numerous emails, he had ‘disappeared’ for a couple of weeks before asking her out, there could have been a million reasons (vacation, ill relative, dating someone else, crunch time @  work). 

    Ok, so he was honest, but tactless. And if he’s this tactless now, imagine how he’ll behave during the relationship.  but if Lorrane’s ok with this, then more power to her. 

34. Sayanta Nov 11th 2009 at 06:05 pm 34

    Heather  #27-

    I here you. That’s all I can say. It’s not fair, but it is what it is, I guess (I’ve been saying that a lot when it comes to dating).

    A-L-

    I said this in another post, but I get zero e-mails (I used to get tons) ever since I hit 31 this July. Which is funny (and sad) since I look the same as I did last year. I don’t know…online dating is not how I want to meet someone. And I don’t see it happening that way anyway. But at the same time, like you said, men aren’t exactly abounding at cultural events, classes, etc (my preferred way to spend time). On a side note, what kind of interests DO men have (besides sex, sports, and beer, I mean)? So… I don’t know. I’m officially throwing in the towel. The application to the Buddhist nunnery goes out tomorrow. LOL LOL

35. Sayanta Nov 11th 2009 at 06:06 pm 35

    Heather-

    Oh, I meant “hear”

36. Jennifer Nov 11th 2009 at 06:10 pm 36

    The guy hadn’t even met Lorraine yet when he told her he was dating someone else. She wasn’t a Plan B, she wasn’t even an actual plan because they had never laid eyes on each other!

    For every person that feels like his ‘can i call you if it doesn’t work out’  line was tactless, there are others who like the realness of it, so i think that’s just a personal style issue and neither one can be condemned as wrong. Red isn’t better than Blue, it’s just different.

37. Diana Nov 11th 2009 at 06:22 pm 37

    I don’t think the guy was being completely honest. I think he was initially bouncing back and forth between Lorraine and another woman (maybe others, too) and rather than let her know at the beginning about his multiple interest, he led her to feel as if she was the only one he was communicating with at that moment. Once he made his decision, he then displayed belated honesty by telling her he was dating someone else.
     
    When he said that he would call her, if things didn’t work out, I think he was being a bit presumptuous in assuming that she would want to hear from him again. But I think he felt this was acceptable because Lorraine clearly liked him and didn’t say otherwise, and this made him feel comfortable enough to safely make Lorraine his second choice.
     
    What I believe matters most here is not in what the guy did, but in how Lorraine responded. At least she had sense enough not to read too much into the date, though I suspect Lorraine likes him more than he likes her.
     
    Personally, I think my response to his “I’m dating someone else,” while he’s been in communication with me would be, “I wish you had shared in the beginning that you were in contact with someone else (or others).” Or “Oh thank God! I was hoping that was the case because me, too.” I wonder what he would have thought. Just playing.
     
    I know. I guess this should be a given, especially with online dating, but for me, I wouldn’t be in contact with a second person until I knew the outcome of the first. I don’t feel the need to have a backup.

38. Honey Nov 11th 2009 at 06:37 pm 38

    Dear lord, how can you both be PAYING to be on a DATING SITE and not be in contact with numerous people at once?

39. Evan Marc Katz Nov 11th 2009 at 06:41 pm 39

    Once again, we have a battle of “how the world is” vs. “how we’d like the world to be”.

    Fact: The vast majority of people online are dating multiple people.
    Fact: The vast majority of people online are constantly comparison shopping to see if they like someone else better.
    Fact: It would be completely tactless to tell each individual that you’re dating others. This is assumed, but should never be spoken.
    Fact: Most people hate it when people disappear in the middle of a conversation without a trace.

    Given these facts, I have long told my clients to do EXACTLY what this guy did:

    Dear Lorraine,

    It’s been a pleasure emailing you this past week, but I have to say, there was a woman I met before we started talking. It wasn’t serious, but we had a second date last night and I should probably focus my energies on that and see where it goes.

    You seem like a great catch, and if things don’t work out (because they usually don’t), I hope I can reach out to you in the future. If not, I wish you the best of luck in your search.

    Warmest wishes,

    Evan

    Invariably, such an email is met with a warm response for its honesty and politeness. Often, they’ll say, “Good luck with the girl. Hope it doesn’t work out! ”

    This is what it’s like when we’re being real with each other. I have yet to hear a better reality-based alternative.

    Expecting each new guy in your inbox to either a) commit to you or b) tell you about the other women he’s emailing is a straight ticket to making yourself upset.

40. Heather Nov 11th 2009 at 06:44 pm 40

    @Sayanta:

    Do they have Buddhist nunneries?  If they don’t require you to shave your head I may join you

    I used to get more traffic before I turned 36.  I joined the online dating site when I was 35.  Have you tried different websites?  I think it may help to be one of the *new* faces.  I know I don’t like it when the same guys keep coming up on my *matches* list.  Lately all the online dating websites have been good for me for is I’ve managed to find a few pen pals to bitch about dating with.  Misery loves company!  I *almost* set up a date with one guy recently, but I ended up chickening out.  I didn’t find him attractive at all and I felt it wasn’t cool to go out with someone merely because nobody else was asking.  So much for backups!

41. girl-with-glasses Nov 11th 2009 at 06:59 pm 41

    They weren’t even dating yet, just touching base!  With some of the attitudes on here, the world doesn’t revolve around you, the man doesn’t have to prostrate and grovel before you just to grab coffee and a meal. Honestly, I’m feeling sorry for the male population again. You all sound so touchy, and yes,with  low self-esteem. But guess what, it’s not the guy’s problem.  What makes you think someone actually would want to spend leisure time with people who are so nit-picky. You are an adult, meeting another adult of the opposite gender, for a social outing.  It’s not sleeping beauty meeting her prince charming. I think the man acted in exemplary fashion. If you’re put off and un-balanced by this email / internet dating exchange, then you’ve really blown things out of proportion.

42. Selena Nov 11th 2009 at 07:22 pm 42

    Diana, your post # 37  interests me because a few years ago I dated a man who told me on our first date he usually dated more than one woman at a time, how did I feel about that?  I thought his honesty, especially so early on,  was amazingly refreshing. There were times in the past where I automatically assumed whomever I was dating was dating me exclusively.  And found the contrary true later on to my disappointment. After having established a sexual relationship inevitably.  Having always been monogamous from the get go myself, I told this fellow I would see how it went. That if I started falling in love with him, we’d need to renegotiate.  I really liked the fact he gave me a choice, rather than an unpleasant surprise a few weeks, month or two down the road.

    I don’t think this guy was tactless or presuming anything – he gave her a choice. Lorraine could have said “No, don’t call me. I would feel uncomfortable being an alternate.”  But this is internet dating; my impression is that the idea is to write/call different people who interest you – to pick and choose among them so to speak until you find one you want to stick with and then you both take your profiles down.  Is that not the way it works?

    Being that I prefer focusing on one person at a time, I would have appreciated that was the reason the guy was backing out before meeting me.  If we did meet (and click) in the future, might he give me the same consideration?

    But that’s the thing…Meeting In Person.  If someone gets so emotionally invested over a few emails and phone calls with a person they’ve yet to lay eyes on?  That’s a problem.

43. Jennifer Nov 12th 2009 at 04:15 am 43

    @Sayanta- So I don’t know you well enough to know if you are having an off few days or are really checking out the nunnery brochures, but judging from your past comments on LoA, you know that if you want to experience different things in the dating world you’ve got to start with your outlook right?

    Not an admonishment, just a friendly reminder. If you don’t really want to throw in the towel, don’t. Not all guys have a jacked up outlook on dating, not all guys suck at marriage, and people really can have happy relationships without contorting themselves beyond recognition.

    If online dating isn’t working, take a break for a little bit and then rejoin some new sites (creating a profile from scratch tends to get your page viewed by more people than simply hiding your profile and putting it back up). Or if you want to get offline altogether, start making plans and filling your schedule with things that will make you happy. When you are in a better state of mind, you can rejoin the dating world with a fresh outlook. Keep in mind that people write and talk more about the horror stories than ‘normal’ dates or  success stories- doesn’t mean the success stories aren’t happening.

    Of course this is all unsolicited advice, which can be hit or miss, and given how touchy people have been on the boards lately I might get cussed out. But hopefully you’ll take my words in the spirit in which they were intended- just to be helpful

44. A-L Nov 12th 2009 at 04:52 am 44

    Sayanta,
     
    Sorry to hear about the no-online-attention abyss you appear to have entered.  I just turned 29 in September, so I can’t speak to the experience of online dating in my 30s.  But as I said in my previous e-mail, I have gone through periods where things weren’t going swimmingly online either.  Perhaps this is one of yours, and it just coincidentally happened around your birthday?
     
    Have you tried hiding your profile for a month or two?  Basically, just take a break from the online stuff to refresh yourself.  I’ve found that when people don’t see my picture for a little while there is renewed interest once I do pop up again.  Or as Heather mentioned, you may want to try a different website (though down in my locale there was a surprising amount of overlap in the pool selection).  Though I agree with you about how poopy Chemistry is, I’ve found eHarmony to be a lot better than them for a similar service and perhaps the way you feel emotionally right now it’d be better just to have matches sent to your inbox rather than waiting for guys to find you.  And if you still use Match, I would definitely recommend e-mailing a couple of guys a week to also restart your love life.  After all, what guy would resist an e-mail from a hot woman, even if she’s a year over what he normally searches for ?   Best of luck to you and Heather!
     
     

45. Diana Nov 12th 2009 at 06:00 am 45

    Evan, I know all of what you are saying. I accept the world for exactly as it is, however frustratingly difficult that may be sometimes. I wouldn’t dare to expect the guy to commit to me just because my choice is to communicate with only one at a time, once the communication has moved on to a series of phone calls and emails. This is my preference. While online dating encourages comparison shopper and the whole candy store experience, I am not a comparison shopper. I am not looking for the best of the best. I am looking for what is best for me, and I can find this in my own way. Naturally, he is free to do as however he chooses.
     
    While it may seem tactless, it wouldn’t upset me if someone communicated they were in contact with others or even dating others because as I said, “I know,” and it’s basically a given in real-time or in online dating. I think the words the guy chose in letting her know were not ideal, but not everyone has a way with words the way you do.

46. Diana Nov 12th 2009 at 06:27 am 46

    To Selena, I like knowing if others are being persued or dated, while I am also being persued or dated. I don’t feel offended by this, and it does give me a chance to decide whether I want to continue with them. I didn’t find fault with the reason the guy gave Lorraine for backing out. I hope my email didn’t give that impression.

47. Shalini Nov 12th 2009 at 06:48 am 47

    Jayne #23
    Thanks.  Its true.. how you say things matters a lot and shows how you think.

48. Sayanta Nov 12th 2009 at 08:58 am 48

    lol- Thanks for the encouragement guys. That’s the thing about the Internet- it’s so easy to post bitter things in a moment of weakness. That’s going to be my New Year’s resolution- to not do that anymore.

    Change in outlook- well, a lot of personal things (starting at a young age) have contributed to the outlook I have on men. yes, I know I should change it. Trust me, I try. But it’s a long, long process…

49. lily Nov 12th 2009 at 10:16 am 49

    I have a prospective date like that telling me that he was interested to see me but he was honest enough to say the he was dating this other gal. I say sense and sensibility is an honest policy versus saying it outright that :I will get back to you when this things don’t work out. I was slightly offended but not showing it and never expected him to take me out either. He did call me  and wanted to see me.Out of curiosity or being a masochist that I am I went out with him. He was quite nice . I did not asked what happened to his “A” girl. I just enjoy the dinner which fortunately he paid for and in a high end restaurant.   Well, at least it did not work out with us either.I maybe the alternate date still it was a learning tool ,to me in the world of dating.

50. Sayanta Nov 12th 2009 at 11:01 am 50

    A-L-

    Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. But actually, Chemistry does have matches that are sent to my inbox. You have to say “interested” or “not interested”- my problem is, when I do the “interested”- I usually get a ‘not interested’ back. And this is the same profile that got all those responses last year (on different sites).

    But you know what- I’ve bitched enough. I’ll do everyone a favor and stop now. Like Evan said, all it is is the whole “wash rinse repeat” cycle.

51. Karl R Nov 12th 2009 at 12:12 pm 51

    Jayne asked: (#32)
    “@Karl #22 Aren’t you the one who[...]“

    Yes.  And if you remember the point of that post, I was saying that you can change how you approach dating without fundamentally changing who you are as a person.

    “my two cents says that this woman you plan to date if things don’t work out IS a backup, whether she knows it or not. ”
    
    I would agree with that assessment.

    Technically you could also say that my current girlfriend is also a backup to previous women I’d dated.  We’d been acquainted and flirted for months previously, but didn’t start dating until I had the opportunity to get to know her better.  (A two hour conversation on the first day of the cruise really changed how I viewed her.)

    “If you had REALLY been intent on dating her [...]“

    I don’t wait until I’m intent on dating someone to ask her out.  That was my approach to dating 10 years ago, and it’s a really ineffective strategy.

    If I’m kind of interested in asking a woman out, I’ll do so.  That way I’m not invested in the outcome.  After we’re dating, I’ll decide whether I’m interested in a relationship.  If I am, then I’ll focus all my efforts towards her.  Not before the first date.

    “The fact that you kept your options open tells me that you maybe kind of liked her but thought you could find something better.”
    
    I also thought that I might have a week-long fling on the cruise (which seemed a more likely option).  While a first date doesn’t imply exclusivity, I would feel uncomfortable about instigating casual sex while dating someone that I saw as having relationship potential.

    “you didn’t feel the need to inform her AFTER the cruise (where you met your gf) that ‘Hey, I found someone I really want but if things don’t work out, I’m keeping you as Plan B.’ “

    I had cleverly arranged the situation so that wasn’t necessary.

    If we’d discussed dating (each other) beforehand, I would have needed to do something similar to Lorraine’s date.

    “Why is this so difficult to understand?”

    The majority of women (and men) don’t react like you do.  If you’re as eloquent as Evan, you’ll have at least a very high success rate making that kind of statement.

    If you’re as ineloquent as you were in your example, you’ll have a lower success rate, but it will still work some of the time.

    Some people will give a person a second chance.  Some people will ask for a second chance.  If you’re in both those categories (like me), you will have more dating options than someone who is in neither.

    What did Lorraine’s date have to lose by asking her if she’d mind him contacting her if things didn’t work out?  Nothing.  If she’d slammed the phone down in anger, he would have never dated her.  If he’d been too afraid to ask the question, he would have never dated her.  If he’d pulled a fast fade, he would have never dated her.  If she’d found someone else in the meantime, he would have never dated her.

    He had nothing to lose by asking.  The worst possible outcome is the same as the outcome if he doesn’t ask.

    What did Lorraine have to lose by agreeing to potentially see him again?  If she refused, she would never date him.  If she agreed and she never heard from him again, she would never date him.  If she found someone else in the meantime, she would never date him.

    She had nothing to lose by agreeing.  The worst possible outcome is the same as the outcome if she refuses.

    You want to be your date’s first choice.  (Don’t we all?)  I accept the reality that I won’t be (as long as George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom are alive).

    I realize that you might not want to acknowledge that you weren’t your date’s first choice.  Heck, Sayanta would rather be a nun.  And the beauty is, you don’t have to.  As long as you’re willing to limit your dating options, you can eliminate every stranger who dares to consider another woman before you.

    But as Evan pointed out, it’s not a terribly effective dating strategy.

52. Honey Nov 12th 2009 at 12:37 pm 52

    Amen, Karl – that’s how most people I met online would respond.  Or at least, the ones that I ended up going on dates with

53. Jayne Nov 12th 2009 at 01:41 pm 53

    @Karl #51 Since I am not in the dating market (celibate), I don’t worry about being a man’s first, second or fifth choice.  And I suppose you are right — most people are not like me.  And yes, I am willing to limit (or in my case) eliminate my dating choices because the kinds of compromises you (and Evan) are talking about would not make me any more happy than I am now.  True I might “have a man” but for me, the price is too high.  So for now (and likely forever) I am alone.  I am willing to accept that, but boy does it set off a lot of men.   I’m not kidding.  If I had even a nickel for every man who felt the need to make some sort of hostile or sarcastic remark whenever I explain that I choose not to date,  I would never have to work another day in my life.  Could someone please explain THAT to me so that it makes sense?

54. Selena Nov 12th 2009 at 02:24 pm 54

    @ Jayne #53

    I don’t have an answer about the hostile, sarcastic remarks, but it does seem the majority of people of both genders find it hard to believe anyone can be single and content.  Assuming such a soul must be bitter, or frigid, a  homosexual in denial, asexual or damaged in some way. If you’re not frantically trying to find someone like they are, (or clinging to a less-than-happy relationship so as not to be alone -like they are) there must be something wrong with you.

    Every serious relationship I’ve ever had began when I wasn’t “looking” for one.  Not sure what to make of that, perhaps my personal contentment was a draw?  Why do you feel the need to tell men you choose not to date? Maybe it’s your delivery that’s provoking the snotty remarks.

55. Honey Nov 12th 2009 at 02:42 pm 55

    @ Jayne, #53 – It’s hard to say why people say what they do about you, since none of us have met you in person. If I had to guess, it would be that their reactions stem from the fact that it seems like you’re saying, 1) I’m not happy with my life, and 2) I am completely unwilling to make the compromises necessary to achieve happiness, but 3) I plan on continuing to be sarcastic, cynical, and aggressive in making my unhappiness known publicly at every opportunity, even when doing so infringes on the happiness of others.

    Perhaps I am wrong and you do not come off that way at all (like I said, it’s impossible to know since we don’t know you).  But in general, I feel that frustration in any given category (dating, career, etc.) is only justified if the person in question is constantly and cheerfully making productive changes to their lives that will lead to the outcome if they desire (and most of those actions are not consistent with feeling frustration so it becomes a moot point, usually).  Complaining about the way the world works but making no changes to adapt to it yourself is having your cake and eating it, too (whatever that phrase really means).

56. Honey Nov 12th 2009 at 03:43 pm 56

    Selena’s observations are valid as well — both about most people not believing anyone could be truly happy unless in a relationship, but also about the delivery.  The people that I’ve known who were really satisfied being single (whether permanently or just for a period of time) never brought up dating themselves, and when other people would ask them about it, they’d just say something along the lines of, “I’m so happy and fulfilled doing [x, y,z] right now that it just isn’t something I have the time or energy to pursue.”  In my experience, that sort of delivery doesn’t make people feel hostile or sarcastic.  But maybe I’m wrong?

57. downtowngal Nov 12th 2009 at 04:30 pm 57

    Reading this guy’s email reminds me of a previous post from a woman who kept meetig guys on line, arranged a date only to have then cancel because each guy  ’met someone else’. 

    I said the same thing there: women are often told to keep our options open, because you can’t tell after even a few dates if it’ll work out.

    I wonder if this guy is being sensible by potentially cutting off a connection after just ONE date with another women.  Perhaps he’s not looking for a LTR?

58. Selena Nov 12th 2009 at 05:11 pm 58

    Honey, I thought of you when I wrote #54.  You’ve written about how many people find it hard to believe you don’t want children and some think there’s something wrong with you because of it.  Same deal.  People believe what makes them comfortable to believe – shrug.

59. Honey Nov 12th 2009 at 05:17 pm 59

    @ Selena, #58
    You know, when you think about it, it applies to so many things.  I’ve long thought that the big divide between atheists and Christians is that atheists all believe that, secretly, Christians don’t really believe all that “junk” – and vice versa.  Same with democrats and republicans.  It’s just so hard for us to believe that anyone could have drawn such fundamentally different conclusions about the world than we did.  This despite the fact that the evidence that most people are fundamentally different from us is ubiquitous.

60. Jayne Nov 12th 2009 at 08:25 pm 60

    @Selena #54 and @Honey #55 To answer your inquires about why I feel the need to announce my celibate state — it’s simple.  People ask me.  Seriously.  During any conversation concerning dating or relationships, the subject will invariably come up about “how men are” or “how women are” and what a drag dating is.  This is usually the point where I  become very quiet (because I have nothing to say).
     
    Sometimes, I’m allowed to say nothing.  But a lot of the time, someone will ask me “What’s your take on dating?” or something to that effect.  Then I tell them that I’m celibate and I don’t date.   I’m not adamant about it, not aggressive, I just make the statement for the fact that it is. Then the questions start.   Am I gay? (Huh? No.  I’m celibate.)   Do I hate men? (Huh? No.  I’m celibate.)  And on and on.  Maybe you get the idea.
     
    And no, I’m not willing to make the kinds of sacrifices that seem to be necessary to date “successfully” (whatever that means)  because I would be much more unhappy doing so than I am remaining alone.   If I’m starving, I’ll eat what’s in front of me.   I have to eat to live.   I don’t have to have a  man to live.
     
    That said, I truly don’t go around waving a sign saying “I’m celibate! Nyah nyah nyah!”  I actually like men.  I would like to have a relationship. I just don’t expect it to happen.  I accept that. It’s my choice, and I’m willing to live with it.   I’m willing to walk out of the store without buying anything.  Call it a character flaw.

61. Sayanta Nov 13th 2009 at 07:22 am 61

    Jayne-

    It sounds like you and I have pretty much made the same choices at this point.

62. Diana Nov 13th 2009 at 08:21 am 62

    Jayne, in a similar vein as your comments, it drives me buggers with the expectations people have of me to date and possibly remarry, since my devastating divorce from two years ago. They all assume this is what I must want. If I lose 10 pounds, she must be seeking a man. If I change my hair, she must be seeking a man. It’s frustrating and hilarious. I’m still trying to determine what it is I want most in life. Before, it would have been my husband, but now … without him, I’m not sure my heart’s in it anymore. I started visiting this sight to learn more about how men and women think. All I can say is, “wow.”
     
    I like the idea of turning my pain into beautiful art, and creating something fantastic and lasting. I do photography and inspirational messages.
     
    Yeah, people sometimes have a hard time wrapping their minds around something non-conventional. And that’s okay. We’re never boring.

63. Curly Girl Nov 13th 2009 at 10:05 am 63

    @60, 61, 62: Thank you for this strong and honest POV!! I am so thrilled that women are talking about their choices to remain single. This can be a very positive decision, as more and more people are discovering. The decision to enjoy one’s single status–or even the preference for it–does not preclude being in a couple at other times in one’s life. The decision to be single does not mean there is something wrong with you, which is why I react so strongly to dating advice based on that, or on the assumption that we’re all looking to be attached. Behind that assumption is the belief that the only times of our lives that are important are the ones that are spent being in a couple. As if this is the peak experience in life, rather than something that we spend only a portion of our lives engaged in.

    Here’s an interesting exercise: If there is something in your life that seems like an intractable problem, instead of resisting it through complaining and feeling bad and picking at yourself, switch it around. If you feel like a loser because you don’t have a partner, say to yourself, “I choose to be single. I prefer to be single. I like being single.” And watch what happens inside. All of the good things about your single state rise to the fore. Along with a lot of strength of conviction. You can see why it makes sense for you, at this time, to be this way.

    You also start to notice all of the people, places, things in your life that are keeping your negative view about yourself in place–the people who ask you why you aren’t married, the ways you seek out validation of your loser beliefs about yourself. Then you can see that the course of action may not be to jump through hoops to get a boyfriend/girlfriend, but to lose the parts of your life that don’t support your happy singlehood and to pursue whatever it is you need to pursue as a single. Perhaps beautiful art, something fantastic and lasting, something non-conventional.

    If you do decide to be with someone, it just might be someone who supports that beauty and strength in you, rather than someone who capitulates to or takes advantage of neediness and despair.

    You can use this reversal exercise for anything that really bothers you.

64. Selena Nov 13th 2009 at 11:09 am 64

     @ Jayne  re: # 60

    “I’m willing to walk out of the store without buying anything. Call it a character flaw.”

    I love that!

65. Joe Nov 13th 2009 at 12:10 pm 65

    Why is someone who is “celibate and not dating” even reading this dating blog?  Research for future endeavors?

66. Jayne Nov 13th 2009 at 01:27 pm 66

    @Joe #65 — Guilty as charged.  Except that the research was for a former project.  I stumbled onto this blog as one of the background sources for research on women and relationships.   And being the type of person who enjoys an honest exchange of opinions,  I decided to stick around.  At least for awhile.  But I don’t use discussion board comments in my research, so no worries there.

67. Honey Nov 13th 2009 at 02:01 pm 67

    Oh, Jayne, isn’t researching this kind of thing interesting!  My degree’s in rhetoric and I often think that blog comments, web forums, and online dating profiles would make INCREDIBLY RICH research fodder…but things change so fast and there’s no way to do informed consent on human subjects in these anonymous communication methods, so…someone with less on their plate than me will have to figure it out

68. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 14th 2009 at 10:54 am 68

    I don’t think the advice given here is assuming that you’re looking for someone to date because you’re a woman. The advice is given because that’s the sole purpose of the website and Evan’s career. I have to say, I really think his advice is honest and works well with most people. There are a lot of forums, on this website, that I read for my own relationship. I just think that Evan’s overall message(or ATLEAST WHAT I GET FROM IT) is to be open-minded. Don’t turn someone away because of something that usually bothers you. I have changed the way I think on two issues because I came here and decided to take his advice. I know I can live single and be fine with it. It was just recently that I met someone actually worth dating and …. well…. back to work(fun work, though!). haha. I just sensed that I was becoming a little more close-minded after every date I went on, and it was turning into a downward spiral. After all, you can’t expect one person to be completely perfect for you and think that you don’t have to change your usual pattern of thinking to be happy. I have changed just a couple things and it has made all the difference. I feel hesistant to do it because it makes me nervous but at the same time, I feel like Evan uses sound logic to base his decisions off of. I know he has more experience than me, and I’d rather take the path that I feel will lead me to love and happiness. Turns out those two things aren’t mutually exclusive after all! Plus, I would like to have someone to share the rest of my life with.

69. mic Nov 14th 2009 at 11:17 am 69

    If I had even a nickel for every man who felt the need to make some sort of hostile or sarcastic remark whenever I explain that I choose not to date, I would never have to work another day in my life. Could someone please explain THAT to me so that it makes sense?
    Because they would like to go out with you (and might be even more irritated because they think you’re lying and are issuing personal rejection.) Or perhaps they resent that there is a percentage of single women who have taken themselves off the market and therefore made single men have to compete for a smaller supply.
    
    Re Evan’s claim that most people dating online are dating multiple people. No way. However, possibly most people with (good-looking) profiles that appeal to many others are doing so.

70. JB Nov 14th 2009 at 03:26 pm 70

    @ mic – Re Evan’s claim that most people dating online are dating multiple people. No way. However, possibly most people with (good-looking) profiles that appeal to many others are doing so.

    I agree,and that’s about 2% of the men. Not sure of the percentage of women. The truth is most men don’t date ANY women let alone multiple women and rarely ever get a response unless they’re in the upper 2% of looks,education and income. Sad but true.

71. Sayanta Nov 14th 2009 at 06:53 pm 71

    JB-

    The men I meet (few and far between) are almost always dating lots of women. They’re not dating me, but they’re dating.

72. Shalini Nov 15th 2009 at 09:26 am 72

    MeetMeinOtrSPce  #68
    I agree with you. Evans advice is meant for those you are looking for it. If you dont need it you dont have to read the blog.
    And about the rest of your comment too… I feel the same way. After reading evans blogs i feel less angry about avery thing and more calm.
    Now i realise.. of course i can’t change the whole world and in fact i cant change anyone if they dont want to. If i keep getting angry at people because they did something that made me upset when am i ever going to be happy. So now i just think – Why did that make me upset? Instead of trying to change the other person and being angry with them. And it makes me feel so good and light.
    This is the first time i can truely say i dont mind being single (even though i still want a relationship.)
    

73. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 15th 2009 at 04:13 pm 73

    Shalini #72- Being happier makes you more attractive too! It’s hard to break yourself of certain habits. Especially when it’s what usually comforts you, but it’s worth it.

74. JB Nov 15th 2009 at 08:54 pm 74

    @Sayanta:The men I meet (few and far between) are almost always dating lots of women. They’re not dating me, but they’re dating.

    Good for you ! If they’re “dating LOTS of women” then they MUST be in the top 2 or 3 % looks,education,income wise. So if you even get the chance to MEET any of them you must be fairly “up there” as well. I know my recon profiles could be dating 5 women each at a time if they existed….LOL And one of them is complete JERK and women STILL throw themselves at him….LOL Go figure ??

75. Helen Nov 16th 2009 at 08:29 am 75

    I can understand both Karl R and Sayanta/Jayne’s points here, even though they appear diametrically opposed. It’s because you are coming at it from two different viewpoints: Karl’s more focused, and Sayanta/Jayne’s more “big-picture.”

    Karl R, it seems that you’re focusing on DATING, and what optimizes chances of success. In that regard, you’re absolutely right: shrugging off comments about how you’re someone’s 2nd choice is the best way to succeed. You’re being very objective and somewhat detached about it, not taking the comments personally. You have to understand that for many women, it’s not easy to detach oneself from comments like that; we take such comments personally, even if they’re not meant that way.

    Sayanta and Jayne, not surprisingly (from what I know of your other posts!), you have the big-picture view. Dating may not in-and-of-itself be your ultimate goal; you care more about how YOU feel as a human being. So you’d rather not put up with dating if it means that you’re treated as someone’s 2nd. That isn’t necessarily a sign of poor self-esteem as Karl R wrote earlier; that is just you are trying to figure out what you will or will not put up with as a human being, period – what your bottom line is, as far as how you’re treated by others.

    What to say? This IS a dating blog, but it’s more important to be happy with yourself first before you try to find happiness with someone else.

76. Sayanta Nov 16th 2009 at 10:56 am 76

    Helen- I really need to hire you as my therapist…LOL. Seriously, though, I think you’re right with what you’ve said.

77. Curly Girl Nov 16th 2009 at 11:44 am 77

    Helen @75: Is this a dating blog? Or is it a “getting to the LTR” blog?

    Because if you’re a woman on here talking about not wanting an LTR, even if you’re dating, you get told (in not so many words) to get off the site because it’s for people interested in getting to the LTR.

    But if you’re a guy who’s just playing around, your comments about “dating” are welcome–even if the comments are in support of dating around without any hint of “getting to the LTR.”

    If you choose to be celibate (which does not mean you aren’t looking for an LTR) you are told (in not so many words) to get off the board, that you can’t possibly have anything to offer or gain from a site about “dating.”

    In other words, the site has an identity crisis. Or maybe it’s just for women who hold anLTR as the goal and the men who would deny them that.

78. Kenley Nov 16th 2009 at 01:35 pm 78

    Curly Girl,
     
    I’m not certain how long you have been reading and contributing to this blog, but your assertion that  ONLY  women who are not interested in LTR are  told to get off the site is just not true.    There were at least three guys — Verbosity, Vino, and Deathslayer — who were very negative about LTR’s and marriage.  These guys were sharply criticized so much so that Evan often had to step in and play ref.   Frankly,  I think you and the women who have been critical of LTR’s haven’t received anywhere near the level of hostility those men did.
    The comments on this blog just reinforces the fact that people hear and see what they want …the truth be damned!

79. Karl R Nov 16th 2009 at 03:49 pm 79

    <b>Helen said:</b> (#75)
    <i>”You have to understand that for many women, it’s not easy to detach oneself from comments like that; we take such comments personally, even if they’re not meant that way. [...] [Sayanta and Jayne] care more about how [they] feel as a human being.”</i>

    It wasn’t easy to detach myself from other people’s comments … when I first tried as a teenager.  It took years of practice for it to become easy.

    But I can think of few things that have made me feel better about myself as a human being than not taking those kind of comments personally.

    <b>Example:</b>
    On a few occasions I’ve been walking down the street and had people yell <i>”Faggot”</i> (or worse) at me out of their car windows.  It was intended to be an insult.  It was aimed at me personally.  The first time it happened was over 20 years ago.  The most recent time was several months ago.

    Looking at the big picture: <i>Nobody</i> should have to deal with that kind of behavior.  In an ideal world, it wouldn’t happen.

    Why should this incident affect my personal happiness?  My sexual orientation doesn’t change when people yell things like that.  My salary doesn’t change.  My friends are still my friends.  Why should I let someone affect <i>my</i> life with <i>their</i> words?

    It’s <i>not</i> always easy to maintain that attitude.  The last time this occurred (several months ago) I was less than a half mile from the spot where a man had been beaten to death by gay bashers.  I got a little stressed out (only) because I realized that the insult might be a precursor to a physical assault upon my person.

    Unless someone’s words can affect my health, my finances, or the important relationships in my life, then those words have <i>no</i> ability to affect my happiness.

    That’s a choice I’ve made, and an attitude I continually practice.  I could have chosen to be hurt and offended by what other people say, and I’d have a much unhappier life as a consequence.

    <b>Helen said:</b> (#75)
    <i>”you are trying to figure out what you will or will not put up with as a human being, period – what your bottom line is, as far as how you’re treated by others.”</i>

    My bottom line is that I expect (in any voluntary relationship) to be treated the same way I treat others.  If I was to expect <i>more</i> than that, I would be a hypocrite.  If I was to accept less than that, I would be a doormat.

    I’m sure all of us know some people who won’t put up with anything.  It’s ”my way or the highway” in all aspects of life.  They’re difficult to get along with (even for the rare people who actually get along with them).

    A lot of people who post to this blog approach relationships as if they’re conflicts.  In one of Evan’s blog posts, he discussed how (most) men prefer women who are easy to get along with.  I find it quite likely that many women want the same thing in men.  If you want an easy-going relationship, you just need to let the unimportant things slide.

    If I’m trying to maximize my personal happiness, I’m not going to accomplish that goal by turning every relationship into a conflict (or a competition).  I’m not going to accomplish it by taking any less-than-flattering comment as an intentional insult.  And I’m not going to accomplish it by taking any intentional insults personally.

    This has <i>nothing</i> to do with me having different goals.  It has a lot to do with me understanding which actions will allow me to accomplish my goals.

80. Jayne Nov 16th 2009 at 09:12 pm 80

    @Karl R #79  You said “If you want an easy-going relationship, you just need to let the unimportant things slide.”
    My response:  What you consider unimportant and what I consider unimportant aren’t even on speaking terms  with  one another.   If you’re willing to accept the way the world works and deal with dating accordingly, more power to you.  But don’t bust my chops because I choose to decline.   The world is big enough for both of us, or at least I think so.
    @Helen #75 — Thank you for grasping what some other contributors to the discussion of this blog fail to see.  Yes, I am all about the big picture.  Dating for dating’s sake is so over for me. Been there, done that, sold all the t-shirts.   I want a relationship, and yes, on my terms, thank you very much.  And I’m willing to hold out for what I want or be alone.   I don’t see the problem here.
    @mic #69 –  I appreciate the insight.  Now I kind of have an idea of what’s going on behind the snide remarks.  And I guess I’m flattered.   Not enough to change my mind or my position, but flattered.

81. Curly Girl Nov 17th 2009 at 07:08 am 81

    Kenley @ 78: Been reading for awhile.

    First off, I never said that “only” women who are not interested in LTRs are told to get off the board. I said that women who express this POV are told to get off the board.
    Second, the guys you mention were not told to get off the board. They did receive lots of hostility, not because of their POVs re: LTRs and dating, but because of the hostile and attacking nature of their posts.

    Third, I challenge you to point out the posts on here from a guy looking for an LTR. Compare this to the number of guys (practically all) on here who are talking about playing the field.

    Fourth, point out the posts where a woman who is happily going about her life without the LTR and encourages others to do the same gets the pat on the back. Oh, right–there are several women on here who do that. So I guess a lot of woman share my POV. But this POV always bothers some of the posters, as if a woman who isn’t chasing the LTR and questions the social structures that push women into fear about not having one is a threat to the very fabric of society.

    Oops! I guess we are.

    My point: This site has an identity crisis, which reflects a broader debate in the public at large.

    My question, paraphrased: Is this site relevant only to women who hold an LTR as the goal and the men who would deny them that?

82. JB Nov 17th 2009 at 07:11 am 82

    @Jayne -”I want a relationship, and yes, on my terms, thank you very much.  And I’m willing to hold out for what I want or be alone.”

    I know there are an awful lot of women on online dating sites that have this mindset. Unless Mr.Perfect comes along ie:”the one”, “soul mate”,”Prince Charming”,Knight in Shining Armor,”Mr.Model/Millionaire” who’s “nice” and 6ft tall etc…
    No man  is “good enough” to date let alone be in a relationship with. And they spend many many years if not their whole lives alone. Sad but true

83. Jayne Nov 17th 2009 at 08:35 am 83

    @JB #82  No worries re running into my online dating site profile. You want to know why? Because I don’t HAVE an online dating site profile.  Remember, I don’t date.    And as far as WHAT I’m holding out for, unless you have a crystal ball you haven’t told the rest of us about, you have no idea what kind of man I want, so I would appreciate your not making assumptions based on stereotypes, please.  Thank you.

84. Sayanta Nov 17th 2009 at 08:44 am 84

    JB-

    You sound bitter. Not that I should talk, but I’m just sayin…

85. Evan Marc Katz Nov 17th 2009 at 10:05 am 85

    Curly,

    This site doesn’t have an identity crisis whatsoever. Because I don’t have an identity crisis and I know exactly why I’m blogging. My guess is that sometimes readers don’t know why they’re reading. So…

    I am a dating coach who works primarily with smart, strong, successful women. Two and a half years ago, I started blogging to generate web traffic. Instead of coming up with my own ideas every day, I started relying on reader questions. Through no effort of my own, it seemed that 9 out of 10 questions were from women.

    In order to provide for interesting material, I rarely choose questions that validate the O.P. I usually challenge her (or him) to consider another point of view. That point of view is not necessarily MY point of view. In fact, I usually try to explain how men and women act in general, without issuing any judgment on the opposite sex. This is pretty clear and consistent throughout my responses. Of course, those who disagree with my assessment of how the world works feel personally indicted and start going on the attack. This is going to come to a stop. Here’s why:

    1) This is MY site. And, for what it’s worth, the ONLY people who have ever been told to get off the boards by me are MEN. Not women who are not interested in LTR’s. See, I’ve written to some of the more offensive men privately and discussed their behavior when it became too much. I probably have a double standard because I’m fiercely protective of the majority of WOMEN who read this blog. In fact, I deleted an offensive post from a man just this morning. But you wouldn’t know that. All you know is that if you hear a whiff of criticism of women (say, people openly musing why a woman who doesn’t date would read a blog that deals with dating), you actually feel attacked and think I don’t like women. Patently untrue. All of my clients are women, and they are the ones who embrace what I have to say here.

    2) The only women who have ever been censored on this site are women who criticize me personally. This is rare, but it does happen occasionally. I even try to let some of it slide as you can tell. But I’m getting less and less inclined to do so. The way I see it, this is my house and you are a guest here. If you’re gonna be at the party, please play by polite social rules and treat me with respect. If you don’t like the food, that’s okay, then don’t come to the next party. But you don’t insult the host. People who come here to attack me need to get a grip. If you rarely agree with what I say, that’s fine. Go find a relationship blog where you do agree. I won’t be upset. But please stop poisoning my blog with personal attacks. There’s a big difference between a free exchange of ideas and some of the stuff that has been written about me here.

    3) This site discusses dating, relationship and sex questions – and is written by and moderated by me. As such, it’s going to reflect my worldview more than, perhaps, your worldview. Why? Because it’s my blog. It is not public domain where you can say anything you want just because you feel like it. This is literally my workspace – my office. So you can imagine how it feels to come to the office in the morning only to find that someone has written some anti-Evan graffiti on my wall. Seriously. That’s how it feels. Now you may feel some sense of ownership by being a long-time reader, and I think that’s cool. Just know, I’m close to done with having to defend myself on my own blog. When you don’t like a TV show, you change the channel. You don’t yell at the TV. Stop yelling at the TV. It’s not changing.

    4) Most women who are dating are looking for an LTR. As such, this site is going to primarily focused on those women. I couldn’t possibly fathom how to write a dating and relationship blog for people who are not interested in a relationship: “How to Sleep Around and Keep People At a Distance, Part 72″, “Why Being Alone Beats Having to Make Compromises, Part 118″. The fact is: you don’t need my advice if you don’t want a man. Just keep doing what you’re doing. If you’re perfectly happy, then anything I say is entirely irrelevant to you.

    5) Finally, if, after all this time, you really think that I don’t get it, that I don’t understand women, and that I never tell you anything you want to hear, then I do have to wonder why you would frequent this blog. Good intelligent debate? Sounds great in theory. But when you factor in how agitated you sometimes sound, I have to consider whether this is bringing any joy into your life. It’s certainly stopped bringing joy into my life.

    Let me know if the debate here has gotten too negative, because, if so, I have no trouble being like Andrew Sullivan, who posts his opinions without comments.

    I’m just not going to continue to scour these comments for personal attacks from people who would probably be happier reading someone else’s blog – or, better yet, starting their own.

86. Helen Nov 17th 2009 at 10:15 am 86

    Evan – yikes! I don’t think Curly Girl meant that YOU or your posts had an identity crisis. I think she was talking about US, the commenters, as a collective. WE have an identity crisis because – as a compliment to your blog – you have generated such a broad readership that the people who respond to your posts all seem to have different goals, a condition that naturally results in debates with each other.

87. Jennifer Nov 17th 2009 at 10:50 am 87

    @ Evan #85 well hot damn!  I’m glad you’ve spoken out on this.

    Been reading the blog since it’s inception and I enjoy the questions and everyone’s comments (I’ve learned a lot from other commenters, so please don’t take them away Evan!) though i don’t care for the  protracted debates. Lately it seems people have been growing more touchy, quick to jump on one another with a smart-ass or dismissive comment and it’s not fun to read.

    Yeah I know how discussion boards and the like work and some of it just comes with the territory, but it’s been extra around here lately. Hopefully things can get back to being a little more light hearted and fun.

88. MeetMeinOtrSPce Nov 17th 2009 at 01:56 pm 88

    Evan- I guess you can’t please everyone, but I think that for all of the negative people that comment here, from time to time, there are also people that you help and bring joy to. I definitely enjoy your blogs! They’re almost always funny, heartfelt and honest.  I have to say it is a tad bit annoying that they’re some readers which are constantly annoyed with or disagreeing with the advice, because uhh…. it’s ADVICE.  And really, it’s just an analysis of a single instance. It doesn’t mean it’s the protocol for every situation that could be similar. You have a choice: to either take the advice or don’t. Debate is always fun, but if you always only have something negative to say then atleast be decent enough to keep it to yourself from time to time. These people are trying to find love! They need words of encouragement, not someone who will make them feel bad about their situation. I’m not saying lie to them, but don’t try and classify it as black or white. And there is always a good side to every situation. Do I really have to take on the role of the annoyingly happy person here?! BECAUSE I WILL!

89. Sayanta Nov 17th 2009 at 01:56 pm 89

    Evan-

    You’ve written a strong, thoughtful response, and I completely understand your thoughts on this. First of all, I really want to make sure that you know my next comments are not intended to criticize you or your responses to the blog. Since I enjoy reading responses and the posts, there’s no reason for me to criticize the site as a whole.

    But I have to admit that when I saw that your response was specifically directed to Curly, the first thing I thought was, “why’s he upset with her? Her comments were directed at the posters- not at Evan.”

    Now, I’m not Curly Girl, so I don’t want to speak for her, but I think she said “site” to make it easierto write her post instead of using the word “certain other posters” in every sentence. I could be wrong of course.

    As a dating coach, I’m sure you know that discussing the issue of love, relationships, etc., especially among singles, is like walking on hot coals. First of all, it’s an emotional landmine in modern American culture, especially post-70s, from what I’ve read. Second, most people who post on this site have access to Internet 24/7. Which means it takes two seconds for them to post when they’re tired, angry, jaded or all three. This means a lot of us aren’t “seeing” each other at our best or most coherent (this doesn’t mean anyone here specifically is not coherent- I’m just making a point). Most of the stuff posted here is- I think- 99% of the time posted in reactionary mode to some other post-er in one of the above mentioned moods. 

    The reason I’m emphasizing this point, Evan,  is because I’ve noticed that a few times recently you seemed to take offense to posts that didn’t seem to be geared toward you at all. Now, if you don’t want offensive stuff on this site, period, I totally get that. It is, like you said, your site after all. But there might be less healthy debate then. For example, if I want to write something, I might be thinking, “oh wait, but is there any roundabout way that Evan might take offense to this and send me a personal e-mail or long post? Maybe I shouldn’t write the post after all.”

    Now, I’m not saying no one’s EVER attacked you personally. I know certain posters did so in the last month. And of course, I’m not reading this site 24/7- I didn’t even get to see it for a few months a while ago, so I don’t know. All I know is that I did read a few posts at times and wondered why you thought it was a personal attack. I don’t mean to invalidate your feelings or anything, but just want to give in my two cents. Thanks.

    PS- Not to sound like a know-it-all or anything, but have you considered putting a ‘preview’ feature right above the ’submit’ button? It’s weird how human psychology works: I’ve been on sites that had that feature, and if I press it and see that my words are too hurtful (or can be interpreted) that way, I quickly edit or delete. That’s just me though, I don’t know if everyone would do this. Because, like I said, if you read what you’ve written before hitting ’submit’ it can cool the heat of anger. Maybe.

90. Curly Girl Nov 17th 2009 at 02:24 pm 90

    Helen @ 86: Exactly. None of my comments today were directed at EMK or his responses to the original posters. I’ve never witnessed EMK telling anyone to get off the board; people do often say that in their responses, though, and pretty much in the way that I laid it out earlier.

    When this happens I always marvel at anonymous posters who are part of an open source community assuming that they have the authority to say what that open source community is or should be about.

    Also, it is an interesting question and a dilemma for the owners of blog sites, how they can encourage the conversation to go in a particular direction. Or if they should. Given the impact that blogs have on our understanding of our communities these days I shudder to think that there’s someone behind the curtain deciding which POV can be expressed and which can’t, what constitutes an “attack” and what doesn’t.

91. Curly Girl Nov 17th 2009 at 02:34 pm 91

    Sayanta @ 89: Exactly.

92. Curly Girl Nov 17th 2009 at 02:40 pm 92

    A PS to all those “looking for love”: I have love. With someone I’ve known for 15 years, which is longer than many married people I know have know each other. As I’ve said before, we adore each other.

    There are many ways to find love, many types of love, many forms that it may take.

93. Karl R Nov 17th 2009 at 03:19 pm 93

    Sayanta,

    I may be confusing Curly Girl with another poster, but it’s my recollection that the first post of hers was directed towards Evan and stated that he was doing women a disservice by not pointing out to them that they didn’t need to be in a relationship to be happy.

    That’s kind of like going to the Travelocity website and stating that they’re doing their clients a disservice by not informing them that they don’t need to spend a lot of money travelling to Hawaii for a vacation.  The  clients can probably have as much fun or more on vacations that are closer to home.

    Curly Girl’s comments were inherently true.  However, they did not take into account that many (if not all) of Evan’s clients are aware that they don’t NEED to be in a long-term relationship.  Like the people who are vacationing in Hawaii, it’s something they WANT to do.  (And people will spend a lot of money to get something they want … so people who assist them in getting what they want are providing a valuable service.)

    Furthermore, Curly Girl seemed to genuinely expect Evan to use his blog space (which he uses to generate paying business for himself) to discourage clients from using his services.

    So while I agree with her general premise (a healthy, happy person doesn’t NEED to be in a long-term relationship), I’m certain my response had some fun at her expense for how (and where) she chose to express that opinion.

    Therefore Evan interprets Curly Girl’s comments as being directed at him (because they have been in the past).

    Curly Girl assumed that people were attacking her for wanting to be single (even though at least part of the ridicule was from people who agree with that opinion … but found her delivery annoying).  And even more annoying, she has adopted the role of “persecuted martyr”, even though almost everyone ignores her posts these days.

    Despite how often I disagree with you, Sayanta, I generally enjoy reading your posts because you’re conveying useful information to the topic at hand.

    Curly Girl,
    You shudder to think that someone might be moderating a (gasp) moderated blog.  I shudder every time I read a forum or blog that’s NOT moderated.  But if you prefer an environment where no opinions (or profanity, or personal attacks) are censored, I’m sure you can find one.

94. Curly Girl Nov 17th 2009 at 03:56 pm 94

    Karl, I usually comment in a response to other posters, not to EMK directly. I do not try to tell him what to post or not to post. That said, I do continue to be puzzled by the focus of the site and the way it’s evolved over the years. It does draw a more intelligent crowd than most, and I am like reading the comments of several of the female posters, like Honey and downtowngal and other women who are making nontraditional choices in their lives re: their relationships.

    Also, if you read through those threads you will find that a lot of women agree with me and support my POV. Perhaps that is really what bothers you and EMK.

95. A-L Nov 17th 2009 at 04:20 pm 95

    I enjoy reading Evan’s blog posts.  I also (usually) enjoy  reading and participating in the readers’ comments area.  Like Jennifer (#87) said though, there’s been a touch of something added in with the debates lately.  I’ve participated fully in some of the protracted debates over this blog’s history but I think what makes the last several ones different is that before people would try to convince people to see and acknowledge their view, whereas now it seems as though people not only want their view validated, but they’re trying to convert others into following their practices.
     
    Though I’m using a lot of religious terms here, it seems that their dating perspective is becoming their religion for some posters.  This includes the passion people, the compatibility people, the LTR people, the no-LTR people, the dating people, the no-dating people.  And tolerance has largely gone out the window.   It’s no longer okay to say, “great if that works for you, but it’s not for me.”  Or even to ask probing questions about their viewpoint (not rhetorical put-downs).  It really seems as though people are trying to win others over to their side so the debates aren’t really reflecting on the other posts and responding, it’s just a bang-you-over-the-head reiteration of the same exact points until the other finally succumbs and agrees, or leaves.
     
    A while back Evan asked commmenters for the types of posts we would like to read.  And I asked for some of the more serious, ideology-challenging posts.  But maybe we need a break from those to something where some of the fun repartee can come back.  I’m not really sure what that kind of stuff would be, but I’m sure Evan can think of something.  Perhaps it will also get some of our longtime posters back who’ve been lurking rathering than entering the rather redundant frays we’ve been in of late.  I miss a lot of them!

96. Curly Girl Nov 17th 2009 at 04:51 pm 96

    Karl @93, re: open source communities: So what you are saying is that you wanna live in a cyberworld where someone who holds himself up as an authority in a helping profession can stifle POVs that appear on what is being billed as an open forum, POVs that differ from his own, because those POVs might undermine his business? Really? That’s what you’re looking for in a dating coach?

    I’ll tell you what I really believe to be true about EMK. And that is not it. I believe he has integrity, though maybe he is improvising a bit and not badly; and I believe he helps a lot of people. Not me, usually, though I do appreciate his candor about things. I would not use his services, but neither would I hesitate to send somone to him if I believed he or she would benefit. I HAVE directed people to him, and one of my closest friends used his office to redo her online profile and she was very happy with the results. Further, the profile works for her. She and I also disagree wildly on dating and relationships, but our friendship is about other things than those ideas.

    I thought this was a place where people could express a lot of different ideas and where I could check the pulse on certain cultural issues that interest me. Didn’t realize that the price of entry to this community was the slavish desire for a wedding ring and the unconsidered acceptance that something “will work” to that end.

97. Sayanta Nov 17th 2009 at 05:11 pm 97

    karl-

    Appreciate the compliment. Since we’re usually coming at a topic from different viewpoints, I’m interested as to what you thought of as “conveying useful information.”

98. Honey Nov 17th 2009 at 05:18 pm 98

    I’m pretty nontraditional all around, Curly Girl – thanks for the compliment!

99. Selena Nov 17th 2009 at 06:54 pm 99

    I don’t come to the party for the food, I come for the conversation. If all the comments were “Evan is spot-on”, “Evan is spot-on”, “Evan is spot-on” – I’d find it a really dull party. Despite the fact I often find Evan spot-on.  Just not always.

100. Ruby Nov 17th 2009 at 08:00 pm 100

     Curly Girl #77
      
     I would have to agree with Evan that most women who are dating and over the age of 25-30 are looking for LTRs.  If you’ve been involved with the same person for 15 years, it sounds like you want that too, even if it hasn’t, or won’t, lead to marriage.
      
     I also don’t see an a particular identity crisis on this site or in society at large in terms of those who want LTRs, and those who don’t. What I see are classic gender differences. It still seems like women are pushing for the serious relationship/marriage while men have more ambivalence. What I’ve read on this site hasn’t changed my opinion that men and women are wired differently, and often approach relationship issues differently. The battle of the sexes lives.

101. Shalini Nov 18th 2009 at 01:30 am 101

     Curly Girl
     I think people here are not getting angry because they cant accept that you want to remain single but because in a lot of your posts you say things that sound like you are saying if we want a LTR its because we think being single means there is something wrong with us!!!!
      
     If you want people to respect you respect their opinion.
     Your Post # 63
     
     The decision to be single does not mean there is something wrong with you, which is why I react so strongly to dating advice based on that, or on the assumption that we’re all looking to be attached.
     I guess this is what started the “attacks”!!! The fact that you say the advice here is based on the fact that there is something wrong with you if you are single!!!
      
     Where on this whole blog has Evan ever suggested that If you are single you are wrong. All he suggests is you should be Open to Possibilities!!! Not that you should accept any jerk that comes along because being single is WRONG!!!
      
     And to tell you the truth its these blogs and Evans newsletters that have actually made me confortable being single!!! Its the advice that supposedly assumes Being single is wrong!!!!

102. Selena Nov 18th 2009 at 04:08 am 102

     When you are “looking for a LTR” what exactly are you looking for?  No one can predict how long a relationship will last. Could be a lifetime – could be a week.  For some, a long term relationship was one that lasted for 6 mos., a year, or 2.  That isn’t long to me at all.  And who goes into dating with the idea “I’m looking for a relationship that will last a year and not a day less!” 

     The term LTR is namby-pamby at best.  There is nothing you can do  to ensure getting a long term relationship. A relationship will either last a long time …or it won’t. 

103. Kenley Nov 18th 2009 at 04:24 am 103

     Curly Girl,
      
     Based on your reply to my post, it’s clear that you and I just don’t see the world the same way so I’m not going to respond to your post point by point because it would be,  well pointless.
     What I will say is this,  a number of your previous posts tend to make it seem as if women who want to be in a LTR have some kind of character flaw or disease.  You have complained many times that society says there is something wrong with women who don’t want to be in LTR’s or married.  (By the way, I’ve never wanted to be married, and as I have said before, I’ve felt absolutely no pressure from family, friends or strangers.   And, even if I did, it would not bother me because I simply don’t let other people tell me how to live my life.)  I feel you come across just as strident from the other side.  Why else would you suggest to a dating and relationship coach that he should tell women they can be happy alone ?   Evan is not a therapist….although at times I’m sure he has had to play one …so his job  isn’t to ask women why they want a man in their lives.  His role is to help his clients understand and even enjoy the dating process and become happily coupled.   The only area where I agree with you is that women shouldn’t be so desperate to have a man that they put up with hurtful treatment or pretend to be something they are not.  In my world, Evan has NEVER, EVER encouraged women to change who they are and accept treatment that makes them feel anything less than good about themselves, their guys, and their relationships.
      
     Perhaps it’s just me, but I find it a tad bit hypocritical for a woman who advocates that other women should be perfectly happy alone when she herself has a “gorgeous” honey she “adores” and who adores her.   If being single is so blissful, why EVER enter a relationship with a man?
     Finally, I consider myself a feminist , and not just by words but by deeds, but I am not now nor will I ever be ashamed to admit that the sky is just a bit  bluer, the grass a bit greener, and the songs of the birds a bit sweeter when I am walking down the street hand in hand with my honey.   Wanting to be in a loving relationship doesn’t make you less of a woman, it just makes you a human being.

104. Curly Girl Nov 18th 2009 at 05:58 am 104

     Ruby: I don’t have any particular relationship goals. I let all of my relationships evolve as they will. They are going to anyway. Which is the way it is for everyone, whether or not we have relationship goals.

     Most people–women especially–spend the majority of their lives single (think about this). If this singlehood is not presented in a positive and life-affirming way, then in fact we DO “need” to be married.

     I am offering the POV on this dating/relationship/sex blogging site (by which I mean the community, not EMK) that one can live an affirming, happy, sexually fulfilled life without 1) a long-term partner, 2) getting married, 3) jumping through hoops to get some guy to be interested in you, 4) being desparate.
     But to understand my POV you would have to tuned into the subtle and not-so-subtle messages about who men are and who women are and how we are “supposed” to behave in relationship.
     Anyone who wants what is held up as being the “way it is” and that works for you–go for it. My words are for people who see a different way. Those people find my POV to be a positive one, not a rant.

105. Shalini Nov 18th 2009 at 06:41 am 105

     Kenley #103
     Thats my point exactly. Curly girl seems to suggest that women who are looking for a relationship think being single is wrong!!!
     Evan has always told in his blogs to never put up with unfair and bad behaviour by men. He tells women to not put up with a man who does not truely love you.
     But the situation in this blog does not demand such a strong reaction. That guy and Lorraine were not even dating. Its fair enough for the guy to not meet her. Its just the guys way of putting his point forward that might be bad but not his intentions.
     Isn’t it better to just meet him and see what kind of guy he is rather than making judgment based on a single statement???

106. Jennifer Nov 18th 2009 at 07:15 am 106

     There are plenty of people on the board that have ‘non-traditional’ points of view, but they don’t come across as ranting and raving at the other posters, nor do they continually reprimand the host of the blog.

     Some people are atheists, but every time another poster mentions God, they don’t say ‘what type of loon would you have to be to believe in God anyway’. Some people are virgins but whenever sex comes up they don’t say ‘what type of slut are you to be sleeping around with so many people anyway’. So of course other POVs can exist, but a lot is in how they are presented.

     If a bunch of people and the host of the blog have an issue with what you are saying, consider checking your delivery. Consider checking the way you interact with posters that don’t share your point of view.  There are several ‘non-traditional’ points of view expressed on this blog and they don’t catch all this heat- consider why. The answer is not automatically because everyone is ‘threatened’ by you.  

107. Curly Girl Nov 18th 2009 at 07:59 am 107

     Kenley & Selena: My posts on this thread raised EMK’s ire because I said that I thought there was an identity crisis here on the board–I rarely respond to EMK’s advice to posters directly. I think we have already covered this ground.

     My observation was that people on the board have no tolerance for those of us who are not in hot pursuit of the LTR. Your posts have only affirmed that observation. I’m in agreement with Selena @ 102 that LTRs are something of a chimera, so what are we even talking about.

     I don’t see any state of relationship as being “blissful,” or one state of relationship (single v. married) as better than the other. That is my point. But on here, just to give an example from before, if someone is saying she is thinking about going with one guy because she feels passion for him and not another because she doesn’t, she is admonished to go for the non-passion situation because of its long-term potential over the flash-in-the-pan passion. To me, that is advocating the LTR in a situation where the woman is expressing ambivalence about the LTR.

     In my observation, this kind of advice usually goes to the woman–men who talk on here about dating for sport get a pass because this is just “men being men.” Well, who are we supposed to have this “blissful” fantasy LTR with if this is how men are? See? Makes no sense to me.

     But this example is a demonstration of what I mean when I talk about the subtle messages that women “need” an LTR/marriage. When I point this out, saying that not all women are looking for that, someone says well, most people I counsel are. Then I say, well, what is this blog about anyway, just people who want that? And then I offer all kinds of stats, stories, etc. about people who want something else and point out that these people are also dating/in relationship/having s*x and perhaps their interests/world view/experience could be taken into consideration.

     Then I get accused of being angry and strident, of calling other women stupid, of attacking EMK, etc., and often I am told to get off the board. Ha!! It’s very funny!!! Makes NO sense!!!!

108. Ruby Nov 18th 2009 at 08:14 am 108

     Curly Girl #104
      
     But it sounds like you have in fact “achieved”  the sort of relationship that you are telling others they shouldn’t care about, as Kenley said in #103. At least in my case, it’s not about finding a relationship just because it’s socially acceptable, it’s about finding romantic love and intimacy.
      
     I don’t disagree that being single is a viable choice. I’m single and so are half my friends. But not wanting to be doesn’t make you desperate or needy. And I’ve certainly met many MEN who married primarily because it was socially expected of them, and are now divorced.
      
     And while you can’t control whether or not a relationship will evolve into something more serious, I can tell you that WANTING a serious relationship is key to actually being able to have one. Readiness is all.

109. Helen Nov 18th 2009 at 09:31 am 109

     C’mon folks: let’s not make Curly Girl into a scapegoat here.  Haven’t we all been guilty of not expressing ourselves just as we intended in written communications and inadvertently putting others off?

     I don’t want to put words in her mouth in case this isn’t what she meant, but all it seems that she is saying is this: in American society, there is enormous pressure for women to be in relationships, and women who are not in LTRs are pitied and sometimes openly despised. It should not be this way. Now we are entering an era in which women are able to achieve other forms of independence (e.g., financial, raising children) more than ever, so we can change the way society looks at being single as well. Singletondom (to coin a phrase from my beloved Bridget Jones) is not something to fear or be ashamed of if you are a woman. 

     I don’t think Curly Girl meant to attack particular women who wanted LTRs; she is criticizing the system that does place undue burden on women who are single.

110. Shalini Nov 18th 2009 at 09:34 am 110

     CURLY GIRL
     Shouldn’t you also mention that YOU have no tolerance for people who WANT LTR because you are constantly saying things like “People on this thread are threatened by me?”
      
     For God’s sake who the hell are you that we’ll be scared of you. You say we are not ready to listen to our point of view???? You are not putting your point of view in front of people
     You are telling then they are stupid to want a relationship.
     POV IS – I DONT WANT A LTR!! I AM AN ATHIEST!!!/ I BELEIVE IN GOD!!!!
     NOT—
     You are stupid to want an LTR!! You are stupid if you dont believe in god!!! you are stupid if you do believe in god!!

111. A-L Nov 18th 2009 at 09:41 am 111

     Just a quick response right now, I’ll type more later.

     First off, there was  a post not too long ago (the meaningless sex one, I think) where Evan talks about knowing your goals.  If your dating goal is just to go out and have fun and meet people then your main considerations will be the fun/passion/etc.  If your goal, however, is a long-term relationship then you need to think about the qualities that you need for someone to have if this is to last for a long time.  Those qualities are not necessarily the same qualities, or may not have the same degree of importance as if one is not looking for an LTR.  And just because one is looking for an LTR it doesn’t mean that you will find it.  Most relationships don’t turn into LTRs (however you want to define it).  But if you know that you would like one, then that also influences what qualities you’re looking for.  Nobody was saying that one is better than the other.  In fact, most people were saying that each has its time and place.  Where a lot of the “practical” considerations have been extolled is when an OP has talked about wanting an LTR.  But that hasn’t been the case for people who just want short flings. 

     And Jennifer’s point about delivery is right-on.  Frequently Helen or Sayanta will make the exact same point that you have.  But their comments aren’t as inflammatory to many of the other posters.  Perhaps later I’ll try to find some examples of this. 

112. Curly Girl Nov 18th 2009 at 09:41 am 112

     Thanks, Ruby @104.

     In fact, I don’t have to start my own blog about relationships because there are plenty that cover what I am talking about. Here is one, from the Psychology Today website:

     http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single

     And here is one post that I think expresses my POV quite concisely:
     “The problem I see on many dating sites is that people approach dating with this very black-and-white attitude: they either are looking for marriage or looking for a “good time.” The problem is they’re all “looking for” something. I have a hard time with this. It sounds weird, but I only want to date men who are happy being single. If someone is, like me, happy being single, and we find a connection, I know there is really a personal connection between us, and not just some need to couple up within a given time period. If I don’t happen to come across someone like this, I just want be as I am. I say on my profile that I am not looking for marriage or babies (I feel I have to spell that out because of the stereotypes about women in their early 30s) but for some reason, that seems to send the message to men who read it that I am looking to have random sex with strangers. Once again it’s the two stereotypes of single women- I don’t fit one, so I must be the other.
     I think that exposing more singles, even the ones that are dating, to your views could only do good. My dating site has “journals” and message forums, and I have to say that a lot of the singles who write are very depressed about being single, have a lot of horrible stereotypes about the opposite sex, and seem somewhat desperate. Some of them are really young and their frustrations with being single AND with dating are really sad! I can’t help but believe that most of them only really feel that way because society has told them over and over again that they are supposed to. Some people need to be exposed to Singled Out and the other pro-single authors and activists to see the light!
     Plus I think dating sites can only benefit from people being happily single. If you think about it, people who are happily single aren’t going to settle for the first person who comes along, but they will likely continue to date, if nothing else because they don’t want to be celibate. This is much better for the dating sites business than having everyone pair up and get married!”
      

113. Shalini Nov 18th 2009 at 10:03 am 113

     Helen #109
     and Curly Girl #112
      
     I get the point of view now.
     But curly girl, i think the point here is not to get the business of the dating websites running but the fact that if you are not happy being single then a relationship is not going to make you happy!!!
     Its the fact that you look at the world positively that makes you happy in a relationship. I guess thats the point you wanted to put forward.

114. Ruby Nov 18th 2009 at 10:46 am 114

     Don’t we usually assume, though, if someone we’re dating wants to remain single and protects their autonomy, that it’s more than just a lifestyle choice? Don’t we assume, often rightly so, that the person just isn’t that interested?

115. Selena Nov 18th 2009 at 10:48 am 115

     CG post #112,

     Yep, that’s it. And I’ve always understood that’s the point you were trying to get across. But I probably ‘get it’ because I’m content enough when I’m single – unlike some of the singles you find on dating sites.  But I’ve also had partnerships that have lasted years. I’ve had and raised a child. For those who haven’t had such experiences, I can understand how they may feel on some kind of timeline.

     In any case, while this is a dating advice site, I think it’s worth listening to those who post beyond just “getting the guy”.  As many will tell you, it’s not about the wedding that matters, it’s what happens afterward. While you’re doing all that compromising to get to the altar, it behooves you to consider the kind of life you can expect once the wedding gifts have been put away.

116. Curly Girl Nov 18th 2009 at 11:19 am 116

     Shalini @ 110: I never said any of that. I never said anyone was threatened by me and I never said anyone on here was stupid. Taht is the way you twisted what I said, and the way that EMK has twisted what I said (albeit on an earlier thread). And as I read through my posts on this thread they are curiously devoid of hostile word choices–I am merely disagreeing with certain posts.

     The attacks, my friends, are coming from you. The anger is yours.

117. Curly Girl Nov 18th 2009 at 11:24 am 117

     Selena @ 115: Excellent.

118. Curly Girl Nov 18th 2009 at 11:28 am 118

     Helen @109 and A-L @111: With all due respect (and thanks for the sympathy!), again, I believe I expressed myself quite clearly and with an absence of hostility. That others are upset by my POV does not mean that I have attacked them or spoken inappropriately. 

119. Jennifer Nov 18th 2009 at 11:51 am 119

     @Curly Girl 116

     On post #81 of this thread you said:
     “But this POV always bothers some of the posters, as if a woman who isn’t chasing the LTR and questions the social structures that push women into fear about not having one is a threat to the very fabric of society.
     Oops! I guess we are.”

     And you have definitely said people here were threatened by you on other threads. You can choose to willfully ignore the points people are making all day long, you are free to choose to believe the problem is everyone but yours, but you could at least acknowledge the things you have flat out said. 

120. Jennifer Nov 18th 2009 at 12:06 pm 120

     @Selena #112
     I completely agree with you that it’s what happens after the wedding that matters. I’ve always assumed (and I do know what they say about assumptions) that any woman who really wants to get married can/could’ve done so. Finding a guy to marry you is not hard. You don’t need advice for that.

     I see Evan’s blog as more a place to get advice and share ideas on finding the ‘right’ one, not just any one.  Creating a successful, fulfiling relationship, not just a tolerable one. And doing that by garnering an understanding of how some men think, how your actions can sometimes be interpreted and how that may be a hinderance to your dating  or relationship success, etc. etc. If women just wanted to marry any old body, no advice is needed for that, so I never approached Evan’s posts or advice as if just getting to the altar was the baseline.

     As so many have pointed out Evan draws a pretty intelligent crowd and we are smarter than that (right, i hope, i think?!)

121. Evan Marc Katz Nov 18th 2009 at 12:38 pm 121

     Okay, I’m just about done with this thread.

     I will add this one thing, however, as we wrap this up: Curly, you’re very bright. I have no problem with you as an individual or on how you choose to find love or what’s important to you. However, you’re very attuned to how others are slighting you. You think I slight you. You think other men slight you. You think  women who disagree with you slight you. In fact, none of us begrudge you the right to your opinions. Where we’ve all taken umbrage is that you quite forcefully tell those who disagree with you that we’re insecure or trying to force something down your throat. This the only reason you’ve been called out – not for your beliefs themselves.

     In other words, you’re no different than Vino or Verbosity or some of the men who couldn’t express their opinions without ruffling feathers. And if you feel that these men ruffled your feathers, you should at least acknowledge why a whole bunch of reasonable people here find that you do the same.

     Off the top of my head, BeenThruTheWars, Zann, Steve, A-L,  Jennifer, and, especially Karl, have always proven to be articulate, even-handed posters who can agree to disagree – and tend to defend themselves with immutable facts about the existing world, not one-sided opinions on how they’d like it to be.

     Which is why this whole fictional persecution of Amy and Jayne and Curly seems like something out of the Sarah Palin playbook. It creates a worldview so narrow – so blindly pro-woman, anti-change, anti-reality – that anyone who doesn’t walk the party line is immediately an infidel. In this worldview my arguments get conflated and twisted into false dichotomies:

     • “Evan says to compromise; he must mean I should settle with a loser who mistreats me.”
     • “Evan says to be cool, supportive and easygoing with men; he must mean I should get a lobotomy and act like a simpering idiot.”
     • “Evan says that you can’t change men; that means that he thinks men are perfect and women need to do all the changing.”

     Really, folks?

     I appreciate the dialogue here. I do. But I think we all agree it’s a bit tiresome when it gets hijacked by this kind of misinformation.

     I want to rigorously support the truth-tellers to continue to defend what I’m really trying to say when certain posters can’t (or won’t) let go. I don’t have the bandwidth anymore.

     New blog post tomorrow…and hopefully, a fresh start for all of us.

     Much love,

     Evan

122. JB Nov 18th 2009 at 02:47 pm 122

     Put the “Kibosh” on this thread……It was exhausting

123. Selena Nov 18th 2009 at 03:10 pm 123

     Jennifer #120,

     Actually agree with Evan’s advice more often than not though I might phrase it differently. For example, I think the more detailed a list someone has of “must haves” in a partner, the less likely they might be in finding someone they can really connect to.  EMK sometimes refers to this as “compromising”.  I call it what these individuals have probably heard from their grandma’s, “You’re too picky.”

     Further, I’ll speculate that the more rigid criteria a person has when it comes to choosing a potential partner, the more rigid a partner they themselves might prove to be. That could be a problem because living with another person, and particularly having children, often requires a degree of flexibility. Sometimes ALOT of flexibility. If one is unwilling to bend on numerous ‘requirements’, I could make the case they really, deep down, don’t want a partner – despite what they profess.  And perhaps they are professing they “want a LTR” because that is what is expected (mostly) in the society, the culture in which they have to operate?

     Also, a side effect of being picky is less risk of rejection. You won’t be rejected by the guy who’s 5′9” if you refuse to meet anyone who’s less than 6′1”.  You won’t be rejected by the woman who’s a B cup when you “are only attracted to women who are D cups”.  We can call this dating Darwinism – they weed themselves out of the general pool.

     But comprising sexual chemistry for the sake of having a relationship?  Compromising your career aspirations for husband and children?  Well, there have been women who did that who have written about how well that worked out for them on this blog.  Those are the ones I think who are worth the space for sharing their point of view.  Because it ain’t all about *getting* the guy, the relationship.

     And Evan, every time you go on about  “accepting the world as it exists”  I can’t help thinking, “Did this guy skip over history and sociology in college?”  *The World* has done quite a bit of changing in terms of gender roles/relationships in the last couple hundred years, and  somewhat dramatically in the US as well as some other  countries since WWII.  No visionary am I, but I don’t see change coming to a halt. “How you gonna keep ‘em down on the farm, once they’ve seen Paris?”

124. Evan Marc Katz Nov 18th 2009 at 03:19 pm 124

     Okay, Selena. Let me know at what point in time men always call after sex, are always monogamous, always say exactly what you want them to say, and when they decide they prefer women who don’t judge, dissect, and unintentionally emasculate them.

     I’m sorry, but those changes will never ever happen (even some of them SHOULD), regardless of societal mores, political changes and income distributions. That’s all I’m saying.

125. Honey Nov 18th 2009 at 03:53 pm 125

     @ Selena – perhaps if more people were open to the idea of not having children, they could have a longer list of other criteria that were rigid and find someone most like them in many other ways

126. Selena Nov 18th 2009 at 05:02 pm 126

     Fair enough Evan. Though I’ve always had guys call after sex.  Shrug.

     Honey, when I read your posts I think how lucky you were to find Jake who fit all your criteria. But A-L asked you in a post once if all those things: atheist, not wanting children, vegetarian, mensa – were all “must haves”, would you have ‘compromised’ on any one of  them in a partner? I don’t remember you replying, would you now? I can see how the issue of children would be non-negotiable, but how about mensa? If you and I met for lunch, would you throw Evian on me if I ordered a burger?

     Rigid or not, I do think we are drawn more often to the people who are like us in fundamental ways, more so than those who are wildly,  off-the-wall different. Though those can be fun sometimes in the short term. And plenty of rigid people have children. And children who later write books about them.

127. Karl R Nov 18th 2009 at 07:41 pm 127

     Selena said: (#120)
     “But comprising sexual chemistry for the sake of having a relationship?”

     Up until my current girlfriend, the best sex I had in my life was during my first serious relationship.  That girlfriend was also the only one who ever cheated on me.

     If I have to decide between great sex with a partner I can’t trust, versus good sex with a partner I do trust … I’ll “settle” for good (but not great) sex.  Granted, lousy sex is almost as unappealing as infidelity, but compromise doesn’t mean you have to accept the opposite extreme.

     Selena said: (#120)
     “And Evan, every time you go on about  ‘accepting the world as it exists’  I can’t help thinking, ‘Did this guy skip over history and sociology in college?’”
     
     Selena, it might help you to think about it another way.

     I knew an aspiring rock musician who was studying classical music.  When someone asked him “Why?” he replied, “You have to understand the rules in order to break them properly.”
     
     If you look back a few weeks, there was a heated discussion about men looking at porn.  Evan stated that you’d have to search very hard to find a man who didn’t enjoy looking at images of naked women.  (A few women interpreted this as Evan claiming that all men looked at porn.)

     A few women claimed that there were plenty of men who didn’t look at porn.  One stated that she’d never date a man who owned porn.  One even stated that men used the “all men do it” line in denial that we were really abnormal and perverted for looking at porn.

     But there are certain quirks of human behavior that you can generally count on.  One of them (that’s very common on blogs and forums) is that if you state that all members of [insert group here] are [insert trait here], you will have several people popping up just to point out that they are exceptions to the rule.

     Not one guy piped up to say that he didn’t look at porn.

     A woman doesn’t have to like porn.  She can try to persuade her boyfriend not to look at it.  (Possibly successfully.)  But if she’s operating under the assumption that the majority of men never look at porn (or even a large minority don’t), she’s probably not understanding the reality of the situation.

     And even the people who affected sweeping changes upon society recognized the limits to those changes.  Martin Luther King Jr. once said: “It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important.”

     And given that the law wasn’t able to keep a man from assassinating MLK, you might also want to keep in mind the great historical likelihood that any changes you affect upon society will be enjoyed by the next generation, not by you personally.

     And to look at it another way, Evan’s advice (including the part about “accepting the world”) is targeted toward people looking for a long-term relationship … not toward people aspiring to become the next Margaret Mead.

128. Selena Nov 19th 2009 at 03:10 am 128

     Karl #127

     You seem to have linked great sex to unfailfulness based on an early experience. Does this mean if you did happen have great sex with a woman you would immediately drop her to spare yourself possible infidelity down the road?  People who have shitty sex are known to cheat as well. I don’t want to have sex, great, good, or indifferent with anyone I don’t trust. But they would have to break my trust first. And it’s been my experience, great, good, and indifferent sex all occur over the course of a relationship that lasts beyond the infatuation phase. Sometimes it’s fireworks, sometimes it’s quietly satisfying, many times it’s inbetween. This is not the same as deliberately choosing someone you feel sexually indifferent about just to have a spouse.

     As far as accepting the world as it is: when I think of how the world has changed in the last 200 hundred years, and how rapidly, it’s in terms of women working outside the home/farm; getting the right to vote; hold public office; own property. In terms of relationships, the acceptance of people having sex without marriage; living together without marriage; having children without marriage; father’s being in delivery rooms and changing their fair share of diapers. Not men and monogamy. Monogamy is a choice. Always has been, likely always will be. Oh, and as you’ve observed…it’s a choice for women as well.

     Margaret Mead??? As far as I remember, Margaret Mead observed cultures and wrote about them.  Hey! Not unlike EMK and the commenters on this blog – whadda you know!

129. Sayanta Nov 19th 2009 at 07:57 am 129

     To Karl-

     “not one guy piped up to say that he didn’t look at porn”

     Yeah, it could be that it’s because all guys look at porn (girls do too, they just don’t admit it).

     Or because a guy would feel ‘emasculated’ if he said that yeah, he does not,  in fact, like porn.

130. Honey Nov 19th 2009 at 08:01 am 130

     @ Selena, #126

     Sure, I’d compromise on some of them.  For me, it’d break down like this:

     Atheist – I could probably compromise on this, but only so far as an agnostic or maybe a cultural Jew (because the food is delicious! and also because the Jewish faith seems more sexually and politically liberal and less into judging others than organized Christianity does).  Someone who felt that organized religion was an important part of their lives would not be a good fit for me.  I am trying to think of friends who are very religious, and am coming up blank – maybe some of my high school friends, but I haven’t been close with any of them in over a decade.

     Liberal – a must-have.  I can respect intellectual conservatives enough to be friends and enjoy conversation, but if I’m watching the news at night and have a gut reaction to something, I want my partner to be equally delighted or disgusted

     Vegetarian – this is tough.  I do eat fish sometimes, so a compromise there.  If my significant other wanted to order meat every once in awhile at a restaurant I might be able to deal with it, but I don’t think I could ever have it in my house.  I have no expectations about my friends and when I go to gatherings where I know food will be served, I usually bring my own so as not to impose on anyone.

     Children – this is also tough, because my concerns about having children are rooted in ethical and environmental concerns just as much as they are about my own lifestyle preferences.  I am a proponent of adoption, especially of children from other countries – but I also do not think that any aspect of having or raising a child sounds enjoyable or rewarding (well, maybe the act of conceiving one is awesome ).  I spent my middle and high school years cooking, cleaning, paying bills, and grocery shopping for a family of 4 as well as being the primary caregiver for my quadriplegic mother, and while I recognize that at some point either myself or Jake will probably have a medical problem requiring specialized care, I know that taking care of another person’s every need is not something I enjoy or would undertake unless I had no other choice.  Your book comment is funny because my dad was very rigid and did not deal with my mother’s illness well, and I have written several memoir-type pieces about it, one of which was published in a student journal and that I gave public readings from

     Mensan – Ha!  No, I only joined because Jake was already a member and it was my mom’s lifelong dream to join herself and she never achieved it.  I do think that advanced education (beyond an undergraduate degree) is important, but probably not a dealbreaker.  OTOH, I have a PhD and work at a university, as do the majority of my friends, so I don’t think it would be difficult for me to find someone who shared my proclivities if I were ever single again.

     Pets – I couldn’t be with someone who wasn’t okay with having cats.  I’ve had mine for 11 years.  There are enough allergy treatments out there that I don’t really think that’s a valid excuse.  I hate our dog but I let Jake adopt her anyway,  though I am hoping he does not want another dog after she is gone – but if he does, I can deal with it.  So, I guess I can compromise on that

     There are lots of things we DO compromise on – I learned to shoot last weekend even though I hate guns, he is learning to save money and I am learning to spend it, the dog as I said, and many, many other things.  So for as many things that I didn’t have to compromise on because we already agreed, I gave up on or adjusted my expectations on many more issues.

131. Karl R Nov 19th 2009 at 01:34 pm 131

     Selena said: (#128)
     “You seem to have linked great sex to unfailfulness based on an early experience.”
     No.  I see them as unrelated.  I’ve also been in enough relationships to recognize the relative importance of each one.  My current relationship has great sex and a high degree of trust.  But like you, I won’t stay in a relationship with someone I don’t trust.  I’m a bit more flexible on the sex.

     Sayanta, (#129)
     Have some statistics:
     http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html
     As of 2006
     12% of all websites were pornographic
     25% of total search engine requests were pornographic
     42.7% of internet users view porn over the internet
     70% of women keep their cyber activities secret (presumably that’s 70% of the ones who engage in these activities, not 70% of all women)
     40 million US adults regularly visit internet porn sites
     9.4 million women access adult websites each month
     Breakdown of visitors to porn sites: 72% male, 28% female
     And the only statistic which surprised me:
     53% of Promise Keeper men viewed porn in the last week
     (Promise Keepers are a Christian evangelical ministry dedicated to uniting men to become “godly influences” in the world)
     The sources for these statistics are listed at the bottom of that web page.
     In comparison…
     I haven’t looked at any porn in the last 3 months.
     I haven’t looked at internet porn in over a year.
     I haven’t used a search engine to look for porn in over 5 years.
     I haven’t paid for porn in over 10 years.  (I rented a couple videos for a bachelor party back in ‘95 or ‘96.)
     I’m not telling you these details to look better than the other men.  I’m telling you these details in order to illustrate that any statistic you look at to measure the number of men who look at porn is going to overlook some of the men who do.
     If you go back and read carefully, you’ll notice that none of the men claimed that all men looked at porn.  Several of the women mischaracterized our statements to say that.  Evan said that you’d have to look hard to find a man who doesn’t enjoy looking at images of naked women.  You can choose not to believe him, but the evidence suggests that his statement is completely accurate.
     You can try to change the world, but denying reality is not going to accomplish that goal.

132. Sayanta Nov 19th 2009 at 02:32 pm 132

     karl-

     okay, okay….jeez. It was just an offhand comment- research wasn’t necessary. But since you did it, okay.

133. Terry C Nov 19th 2009 at 04:41 pm 133

     Dating now a days is so hard, it was much simpler back in the 60’s and 70’s before social websites and phone dating chat lines was the way to meet someone. This article make some great point but it may not work for everyone. 

134. Anette C Nov 20th 2009 at 11:54 pm 134

     This has been the most illuminating post I’ve read in a while.

     And I just realized, that a guy I know, who showed interest in me(timing was wrong), dated another girl..broke up with her and still showed interest in me, was actually not trying to approach me as a rebound girl/sex possibility.

     The fact that after 5 months with this girl, that he then started paying me attention again(I actually kind of rejected him the first time, due to hard to explain reasons), means I was still on his mind.

     Wow…I can’t believe it’s actually that simple. We didn’t date, or have sex but there was definately attraction and potential and him still showing interest is actually quite flattering.

     Us ladies really can be blinded by our need to be super special. We CAN be special to a man, but just like he has to earn our tender feelings, we have to earn his as well. We cannot expect men to be lapdogs either. They have the right to pursue their own happiness, and just be honest about it.

     This is so interesting. I wasn’t sloppy seconds at all!! Sigh…I wish I had have realized that sooner(he’s now dating again…silly me!!).

135. Joe Nov 24th 2009 at 08:44 am 135

     You can’t be super special to someone you barely know.

136. Evan Marc Katz Nov 30th 2009 at 10:36 am 136

     From the “I Hate to Say I Told You So” Dept…

     I received an email from Lorraine this morning. If you recall the original post, I lauded Lorraine for playing it cool when the man who disappeared on Match.com came back a second time.

     Here’s her results thus far:

     I wanted to give you an update on the man from Match. Things have been progressing quite nicely!  We have spent a lot of time together during the past few weeks.  Last weekend, I went to hear him sing and play his guitar with his band, and he walked off the stage 3 times to kiss me!  We spend hours together having great conversations and there are so many things we both enjoy, and we can’t keep our hands off each other!  He’s cooked me dinner, sang to me, and treats me very well.  We even spent the evening of Thanksgiving together. He’s invited me to join him for a weekend in Vegas next month, but I’m worried about going out of town with him so soon, and I turned him down. (I really want to go though).  So far, it’s going just great!

     
     

     Although we seem to be a great fit, it’s only been a short time (not even a month yet) and I figure until he says he wants to be exclusive I should still keep active on the site.  He’s on my favorite list and I noticed that he goes a long time between visits there (maybe I shouldn’t be looking at that, but it’s hard not to be curious).

     
     

     Thanks again, Evan, for all of your help, and I will continue to keep you updated!

     
     

     Lorraine

     Needless to say, this doesn’t mean that Lorraine will marry this man. But I think it’s clear that this would not have been possible if she took it personally that he was dating other women when they first met.

     If they’re meant to be, the Match man will step up to the plate and commit to her soon. If they’re not, Lorraine is in complete control of her emotions because she has a reasonable idea of what to expect and how to react to each given situation.

     Once again, if there’s a perfect example of dating coaching taking root and making a difference, it’s in Lorraine’s attitude, perspective and actions right now. I am very proud of her and proud of any woman who attempts to improve her understanding of this process. Thanks for reading.

137. Lorraine Nov 30th 2009 at 12:09 pm 137

     I had no idea that my decision to give this man another chance would be so controversial!  But of course, I had other dating prospects going on right along, so why would I hold it against him that he was dating someone else?  Heck, so was I.  It’s all part of the process, after all, we are all single and looking, right?   At that time, though, I was just surprised that he was taking so much time to chat with me, etc., if he was sufficiently serious about someone else that he didn’t want to go out with another woman.  Now that I know him a bit better, we have even talked about that situation, and I think it was more about TIMING rather than prioritizing us as first choice, second choice, etc.  Things got to the dating stage quicker with her, but it also ended quicker, too! The way I understand it, he is so NOT a player, that’s why he didn’t want to go out with me until things were resolved with the other lady first.  To me, that kind of honesty makes him more trustworthy, even though at the time I didn’t really understand it.  Now I know that he’s the kind of guy who just tells it like it is.

138. Lorraine Nov 30th 2009 at 01:46 pm 138

     Selena @ 29:
     You are right!  I was SO NOT sitting there waiting to hear from him those 2 weeks.  As a matter of fact, when he did call me again clear out of the blue, when I answered and he told me his name, I couldn’t even remember who he was!  I put his call on hold and and said to my friend that I was with, “Do you remember who X is?  He’s calling and it’s not ringing a bell!”  It wasn’t until we spoke for a minute that I remembered him.  And yes, I could have totally have been interested in someone else by then and have turned him down.  I had several invitations from other guys during those weeks.   But I was sufficiently intrigued by this guy to want to meet him.  Why?  Because he had kept me in mind and was interested enough to take a chance that I would agree to a date. Desperate?  Uh, no way, quite the contrary.

139. A-L Nov 30th 2009 at 04:50 pm 139

     Thanks, Lorraine, for posting an update on your situation.  Hope you continue to enjoy yourself!

140. Selena Dec 1st 2009 at 03:45 am 140

     Lorraine, so nice to hear about a situation turning out well. We need more stories like this. I totally understand about timing.  I had a male friend for many years I was quite compatible with and would sometimes when I was single wonder wistfully if he and I would make a good match. Problem was, we were never single at the same time.  One year I got up the courage and asked him if he ever had thoughts along the lines of us as a couple. He said yes, but followed with “Selena, our timing sucks!” He had been seeing someone for the last few months.

     So yeah, I think it was kinda brave for this guy to call you knowing you might no longer be interested.  And cool of you to not take it so personally that for a time he was focusing on someone else.

     Lorraine, now you’ve got me thinking about dropping an email to my old friend and seeing what he’s up to these days. 

141. Shay Feb 18th 2010 at 09:07 am 141

     Actually, when people are dating, I don’t think they’re already exclusive.

     I see dating as going out and be friends first. So, absolutely no issue if a guy tells me that he can’t see me because he’s seeing someone else. In fact, I would be pleasantly surprised that such honesty still exists. The worst is that he comes and goes without any rhyme or reason and leave me thinking where is this going.

     I think I won’t be offended if I’m Lorraine. To be “matched” online and lined up for dates is already quite an achievment. Not to say I’m desperate, but once I come into the dating scene, I can better appreciate the difficulty in finding possible matches or being found by possible matches. I’m sure we only make contact with people who more or less match our minimum requirements (whatever those are). So, whats the harm of going on a first date with a guy who meet our minimum requirements? If he turns out to be a jerk, then no more dates. The worst is a few hours wasted. The possibilities are 1) snagging a future boyfriend/husband and/or 2) dating skills gets practiced and/or 3) my search critieria may get refined from increased interactions with men.

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