The Secret to Keeping a Man: Forget the Future, Enjoy the Present
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When you’re on the phone with women for 4 hours a day, you tend to hear a lot of recurring themes.
One of the most prominent themes is a “high-class” problem; in other words, if you’re having this issue, it means you’re doing very well with men.
Maureen and Cassie could not be more different as people, but they both have the agonizing problem of finding a man who absolutely adores them after less than one month of one-on-one coaching.
Immediately, our conversations turn from, “Why are there no good men out there?!” to “How can I calm down and make sure I don’t ruin it with this great guy?”
Both of them, unfortunately, had it quite backwards.
Because of their own fear – of being abandoned, of being not-good-enough, of being too old, too rigid, too masculine – they seriously ran the risk of alienating their new men.
Until I reminded them of a core principle in “Why He Disappeared”: men do what they want to do.
If we want to call you, we’ll call you.
If we want to introduce you to our family, we’ll introduce you to our family.
If we want to take down our profiles and commit, we’ll do it.
Which is why, when Maureen and Cassie breathlessly asked me to tell them what to do next, the answer couldn’t be more simple: NOTHING!!!
“Doing something” means you’re trying to keep your emotional tether alive, to nudge him into calling you, seeing you, committing to you.
The great thing about men is this: We don’t need to be nudged!
But the great thing about men is this: We don’t need to be nudged!
So when it’s been 10 hours and you haven’t gotten a reply to his text, you let it go.
When it’s Thursday night and he hasn’t called to see you on Saturday, you let it go.
It’s three weeks into dating and his profile’s up, you let it go.
Why? Wouldn’t it make more sense to call him, text him, and see him so he doesn’t lose interest in you?
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65 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Joe 1
As always, the person with the most power in a relationship is the one who cares the least. By caring whether or not someone calls or texts you right away, you’re putting yourself in a weaker position.
Note that it’s possible to care for someone without caring about the little details, like how soon s/he calls you back.
Jane 2
Evan – I agree – the best thing to do, particularly early in the dating stage, is to relax. They should also keep in mind that they are in the position of doing the choosing as well. Rather than getting caught up in the excitement of being chosen and feeling wanted, they need to remember that it’s a two way street, and keep a clear head so that they can avoid going too far down the path with a guy that’s just not the right one for them. There’s no way they can know that this guy’s “the one” yet either!
So instead of letting their insecurities get the best of them, they is actually something the can “do” – live their own lives. Enjoy the dates with the men, enjoy the interactions with them (the phone calls, texts, etc.), but in between those dates and interactions, get out and do the things they enjoy – live life. Follow their passions. Spend time with people they love and care about. Try new things. This will keep them from getting stuck in their own heads thinking too much and overanalyzing the whole situation, which can make women make bad decisions.
Heather 3
Evan, this is so spot on. My girlfriend, I’ll call her Lisa, has been dating someone for almost five years. He moved back to the Midwest where he is from, almost three years ago, she’s been here in the Washington DC area. So it has been long distance for 3 years. He had never, ever brought up the subject really, of the future, until she asked, last year. For the last year, he has stalled, put off a decision, won’t talk to her.
I’ve been trying to tell her this, that if he were Mr. Right, he’d not have waited around for five years to do something about their future. He’d have put a ring on her finger a couple of years ago.
I wish she’d read this article and realize what’s up. My heart aches, when I watch her go through this, when she could be done with this and just end it with him. If I were in her shoes, I certainly would.
Me, I’ve been dating somebody for four months, and he brought up the subject of marriage in general, and I made it perfectly clear that I am in no rush, and not a girl who’s going to flip out if I don’t have a ring in 9 months. Ick. I figure I will let him make the moves. And if he doesn’t, well after the 3 year mark, I will have to let him know then, that continuing to date with no end in sight is not acceptable. But until then, I’m just enjoying the now, and see what happens.
Heather 4
@ Joe:
Bingo. I heard that line in a movie and realized I needed to adopt more of that attitude. I’ve developed much more of a “Whatever, I don’t care what you guys do, I’m good, no matter what” attitude. It’s saved me a lot of heartache. Because if I care the most, I’m the one with the least amount of power, and more likely to get hurt. And I’m not going to put myself in that position again.
nathan 5
There is something off about this “don’t care at all” shift in the conversation. I actually agree with what Evan said here (shocker, eh?). And I don’t think he is saying “adopt a don’t care attitude.” What I hear him saying is lighten up, enjoy yourself, stop projecting far into the future, and experience dating as dating.
Dating isn’t about a power play. It’s not a war, although a lot of people seem to act like it is. It’s about learning about the other person, seeing if you can get along, can have fun together, and are supportive of each other on a basic level.
When Evan says “let it go” to those thing he listed, I’d add “and pay attention.” Instead of prodding and pushing, you just notice if that missed call or text matters in the big scheme of things. Whether there’s a pattern of not caring, or whether it’s just that the guy shows care differently. The reality is that much of the time, we’re caught in judging every last move we don’t like as a sign that someone isn’t “into us” or is “an ass.” It’s that instant judgement, and an impatience around defining the relationship, that keeps people from enjoying dating, and also paying attention enough to make a good decision when the time comes to.
Martha 6
If your dating a guy and he does not text back or even if your not dating a person and they don’t text back, isn’t that a clear indication that they are not that into you or they have other blockers in their life that make a relationship with you impossible? If two people like each other it will flow and the obsessive contact shouldn’t be necessary. As an older person I don’t understand the “rush” some people have towards marriage. There is time and if it is going to happen then be patient because even if you marry there is no guarantee it will last.
Millie 7
Never were truer words spoken (or written). My current beau and I have been dating for two glorious years. I would have totally messed up the relationship had I not purchased and devoured “Why He Disappeared” word for word. Men truly do what they want. The beauty in my relationship is that HE wanted to commit to me, and now, HE wants to marry me. We have a private joke that the only reason we are not engaged is because every Saturday morning, I am headed off to perform community service instead of headed off to a local jewelry store to look at rings – as HE has requested. I did not have to push, nudge, threaten, or deliver one single ultimatum. HE arrived at the conclusion that he wanted me to be his wife. We are both professionals in our late thirties, and this will be a first (and hopefully only) marriage for both of us. Thanks, Evan. I will send you a pic from our wedding day. Guess I need to make time to clear my Saturday schedule soon!
Margo 8
This says it all. Very good article and advise.
Brenda 9
I agree with both Evan AND Joe.
Karl R 10
I have to agree with nathan (#5). Even though Joe (#1) is technically correct, he’s still wrong.
Five years ago I went on a first date with someone I met on Match.com. She had five pictures that looked like four different people (three of those people weren’t attractive). I was ambivalent about the first date before it started. I was less enthusiastic when I met her face-to-face. When she opened her mouth and started to talk, I lost all interest in her.
She was clearly interested in me, clearly attracted to me, and clearly wanted the date to go well. Joe correctly noted that I had ALL the power in that relationship.
And I had NO desire to exercise it.
If I have a relationship that I don’t care about, with a partner I don’t care about, have I achieved anything? If your goal is to be the one with the power, that’s the “prize” you end up with.
SoPhi 11
This couldn’t be timelier for me. I have been dating a great guy for the past 6 weeks, he calls and texts every day like clockwork, he makes plans every friday. We spend most of last weekend and its terrific. Ever since the weekend I have become anxious and have texted him during the day. I needed this as a gentle nudge to relax and enjoy getting to know him.
helene 12
I think there will always be an imbalance of power in favour of the man in the early stages of dating, for one simple reason: women don’t date people they are not seriously interested in. Men, apparently, do. For a guy to even get to date 2 with a woman, she has to be pretty interested. For a woman to get to date 2 with a man, all she has to do is be someone he could stomach having sex with…and apparently most men can stomach having sex with pretty much any woman with a pair of boobs and the use of all 4 limbs!
My point is this: whether you call or not, text or not, act cool or not, he already KNOWS you’re into him….or else you wouldn’t agree to see him at all. As for us gals, it takes a lot longer to know if a guy is into us, since even the ones who aren’t into us will happily date us for a while if they think they might get to have sex. I am an advocate of the “do nothing” school of thought, but don’t fool yourself into thinking this give you any power – it doesn’t!
Mia 13
Helene, you are absolutely right, except I’d change the threshold from second date to fourth since I try to be open minded even with guys I’m not attracted to for the first couple times they ask me out. I used to always Feel like I was the one disproportionately rejected until realizing I wrong date or sleep with guys I don’t like, I just reject them from the very beginning when there is zero emotional investment. It seems do unfair that women have to deal with rejection after feelings are already involved.
Karl R 14
helene said: (#12)
“women don’t date people they are not seriously interested in. Men, apparently, do. For a guy to even get to date 2 with a woman, she has to be pretty interested. For a woman to get to date 2 with a man, all she has to do is be someone he could stomach having sex with…”
How do you decide that you’re seriously interested in someone whom you’ve only known for a few hours?
Perhaps you’re sabotaging your efforts by trying to make a serious decision with a trivial amount of data.
At the end of the first date, I’m well aware that I’ve only learned a trivial amount about the woman. I’m not in a position to make a serious decision about her. Therefore I limit myself to two trivial decisions:
1. Is she attractive enough to have sex with?
2. Is she sufficiently fun to be worth spending a few more hours with?
I’ll wait until I actually get to know her before I decide whether she’s a keeper.
I know some women who haven’t put such high expectations on the second date. One woman went out with me, but didn’t expect things to progress past the first date or two. It ended up being her longest relationship at that time and only ended because we had incompatible long-term goals. She later told me, “I didn’t expect that I’d actually *like* you.” Talk about low expectations.
It was a great relationship while it lasted. And it happened because she actually took the time to figure out whether she liked me before saying “No.”
Another woman had NO interest in a serious relationship with me. She told me that to my face. (I wasn’t strongly considering a serious relationship with her, so I wasn’t particular bothered by this statement.) But she thought a fling might be fun (and implied as much to me). So we enjoyed each other’s company and got to know each other better.
She’s now my fiancée.
You don’t have to start out with a fling in order to enjoy the present. (I don’t even recommend it.) Laughter and conversation are sufficient. But let me put this more strongly than Evan did.
You’re making STUPID decisions. You’re trying to plan for the next several years during the first few HOURS.
Kick back and enjoy the first few dates. Take the time to learn something about the person you’re dating. If you turn out to be a bad match for each other, you can dump him a few weeks down the road.
Mia 15
Another way I try to make sure the guy is a good fit is to not try to play hard to get or feel like I can’t initiate contact once in awhile in the first couple months. I want the guy to like ME, not the chase, so I’ll call or text back reasonably quickly and initiate a call once in awhile. I totally agree with a lot of what Evan says but think some of this is flexible, that said the guy needs to be making an effort to ask you out and follow up.
SusanC 16
Now you sound like Rori Raye!! Except you make much more sense! I love your articles, Evan!
However I think that it is impossible to know someone well enough to tell if it is a dead end in 8 weeks! There is so much to know about a person to determine if a relationship is worth investing in and there is no way 8 weeks even skims the top of the surface for that! I dated my fiance for 3 years before we got engaged. And we are having a long engagement before marriage because we both want to be SURE before we commit to a lifelong commitment. Our nation’s divorce rates stagger high because too many people make decisions too fast and then do not want to live with those decisions. People need to slow down and stop rushing things. Why hurry? You have the rest of your life to enjoy life with your partner!
Which includes not rushing the process in the beginning of a relationship and just float on getting to know each other and enjoying the moment. This really is an excellent article that more people need to grasp.
Ruby 17
SusanC #16
The 8 weeks time frame bothers me too. As long as the relationship is growing and you both are getting closer, who cares if it takes 6 weeks or 12 weeks to get there? I’ve had men rush into a relationship – or sex – with me very quickly, only to get spooked and run away after a brief time. In many ways, I think that slow and steady is a better model in the long term.
JB 18
@Helene #12 ” I think there will always be an imbalance of power in favour of the man in the early stages of dating”
Really? Tell me how much power I have while I’m on a second date with a woman who’s getting 30 responses a day on Match to my 2 or 3 a week? Guess who has more “power”. The one with the most options of course and it’s not me or most men online unless of course they’re in that top 1% which most men aren’t.
“Women don’t date people they’re not seriously interested in.”
Yes a lot of them do. I’ve dated several women over the years who were casual daters and very ambivalent towards me and men in general unless they found “Mr.Whatever they’re looking for” and they were only too happy to casually “date around” in the meantime.
As for me? I date women I’m not “seriously interested” in most of the time because the ones I would be seriously interested in won’t date me. So rather than be alone and celibate I have to casually date. It is what it is.
sharon 19
@JB
But I have no idea how many guys in that 30 messages are looking for a one night stand or booty call. So you rake through all the profiles trying to find the least obviously sex oriented that you find attractive. Go on a couple dates (and for me after a couple dates I don’t know if I want to date you for years but I do know I want to date you exclusively for a while to figure it out.) So then there is this awful waiting game where I am completely powerless just waiting to find out if I’m rejected or not. The man in question regardless of my relationship potential is probably still saying what I want to hear and jumping through the standard dating hoops because he wants to get laid. And your probably dating a couple guys at once so anxiety magnified a couple times over. And generally for me being rejected in rapid in secession by multiple men I would consider dating generally is exhausting. All those messages in profile just drain the life out of me.
Joe 20
@ Karl #10:
I don’t get in your post where you think I’m wrong. You did have all the power in that relationship (which I assume was brief, since I would expect you to not see that woman again). My statement made no qualifications regarding achievement, only imbalance of power. The imbalance may be small (the woman was interested enough to see you a second time but not sleep with you yet) or great (you could have had your way with her on that first date even though you weren’t interested in continuing the “relationship”).
Heather 21
Guys, whether you like it or not, as has been mentioned earlier, you DO have a lot of power. When I was on sites like Match.com (actually Match.com was the worst for this), there would be alot of guys responding…..but most of them knew how to play the game and tell me that they wanted a relationship, so they could get laid. I figured this out after a couple of months on the site and decided to get the hell outta Dodge.
And finally, I decided to listen to that saying, and also my Mom, and not allow you guys to have so much power over me. I developed an attitude of, whatever, if you call, fine, if not, whatever, you’re not ruining my day, my life, whatever. My world will never revolve around some guy who very likely could break my heart. I developed my own life and hobbies.
And you know what? It’s working. I love my boyfriend but I love me more. He’s told me that he loves my independence and fesisty nature and that I do not need a man. When we started dating, I made it clear that I had my own life, I would not ditch plans for him, and on the first date when he said he’d call later, I just smiled, said, “OK, that would be great!” and walked in my front door, without a single glance backward. And put him out of my mind, because I’ve heard too many men say they’d call and wouldn’t. I assumed he would not call. And keeping such low expectations was the best damn thing I could have ever done.
There’s a saying that I will forever keep in my mind with dating: “Blessed is she who expects nothing. Because she will not be disappointed.”
Helen 22
I don’t think that it’s really productive for some commenters here to claim that they’re the powerless ones and that the opposite sex has more power. That is a victim mentality. All of us do have power. The mating game is not easy for anyone, for a variety of reasons that differ more among individuals than they do between sexes. But the very least, we always have the power to choose our responses. Waiting need not be just waiting; the time can be filled by meeting others and doing pleasurable activities that have nothing to do with dating. And if one spends too much time suspecting or resenting the opposite sex because of all their supposed power, it probably will backfire in terms of finding an LTR.
Heather 23
That’s my point, Helen, is that I had to get out of the victim mentality and stop letting men lead me around by the nose, if you will. I had to choose to stop that, and not let them hurt me anymore. My point is that guys have more power than they think they have, just like we women have more power than we think we have. We just have to find our voice and use it.
I now know that I am not a victim, I can stand up for myself and what I want and need and not let a guy take over my life. And it’s been nothing but good. If a guy was a jerk to me on a date, I rejected further advances, or called him out for misbehaving. And it felt GREAT. I didn’t sit around feeling resentful or sad. If a guy treated me nicely, great, and it gave me the option to consider whether or not I wanted to see him again.
And like you said, waiting need not be just waiting. Part of my new attitude was OK, I went on a date. NEXT! I’d continue talking to other men, meeting them, going out with my friends. If I got a text or call, wonderful. If not, well, I had my answer and that guy wasn’t going to ruin my day, because he’s just not that special. Nobody is that special and nobody should have the right to ruin your day, or live rent-free in your head, so to speak.
Ria 24
Ladies, this is classic by JB: “As for me? I date women I’m not “seriously interested” in most of the time because the ones I would be seriously interested in won’t date me. So rather than be alone and celibate I have to casually date. It is what it is.” Thats brilliant and this is what brings for some dating coaches (not talking of Evan here ) bread on the table and help to sell their books about “tips of how to make him commit more,” and “how to make him propose,” and “how to actually read his mind,” and “seduce,” and “turn tables around,” (when its actually wrong from the beginning.) So you see women following the “instructions, ” and it still does not work…Why – they wonder – as they look at their situation of dating a guy for like 5 years and no sign of him wanting propose?
When all you have to do is actually keep it real, enjoy yourself and date in a pressure free manner, like Evan suggested.
Again – I don´t mean my comment in a bad way at all, on the contrary, it is very well said by JD. Hit the nail.
DinaStrange 25
Reading the comments section, i am thinking no wonder we have such high divorce rate.
helene 26
@Karl – maybe I didn’t express myself well (oh, thse late-night postings…!) but what I meant by “seriously interested” in terms of going on a second date was “as seriously interested as you CAN be at that stage in a relationship” , which is to say, you can at least see a possible, potential LTR. I would not go on a second date with someone I definately COULD NOT see LTR potential with – and yes, you CAN know that very early on… If he announces he’s leaving the country in a few months/spends every second evening with his kids and ex wife / is much younger or older than he said in his profile or has some feature which is a dealbreaker which was not apparent from his profile, then I will not bother to go on a second date with him, even if he’s sexually attractive. Unless the POSSIBILITY of a LTR is there, I wouldn’t waste my time. My point was that I think a lot of women operate this way, whereas a lot of men don’t – they DO live in the present more (is she hot? can I sleep with her?) and worry about the other stuff further down the line, when you have already become involved. Obviously there are exceptions but I still maintain that if a guy gets a second or third date with a woman he can generally surmise that she would consider him as a long term partner if things continue to go well – a woman can make no such assumption about what’s going through a man’s mind!
JB 27
Yes Ria, I know you didn’t mean it in a bad way. I was honest but you have to remember I’m not 32 and looking to get married and start a family. I’m 51 and have no desire to be married. The women I date are divorced (some twice) and most of them aren’t looking for a husband. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t love to be happy in a serious relationship. The woman I met 3 months ago who I would of gladly taken my profile down for and give it my all didn’t find me attractive and she took hers down for another guy. Yes, I had no power there.
So my life goes on and I date and have “fun” until I meet another “special one”.
Karl R 28
The concern about power (that some of you seem fixated on) is foolish and pointless.
If I don’t care about a woman, then I don’t want a relationship with her.
If a woman doesn’t care about me, then I don’t want a relationship with her.
In this situation where you’re claiming a power balance exists, it’s a BAD relationship. End it already.
Choose a different way to perceive power in a relationship. Both people in a relationship have *equal* power. They both have power over their own actions. They both have the ability to say “No.” The only power one person can unilaterally apply to the relationship is to terminate the relationship.
The person who cares less is more likely to exercise that power. They’re doing both people a favor by ending a relationship that wasn’t working. You can even turn things around. About three years ago I had a date who kept cancelling on me. After the third time, I pointed out that she seemed disinterested in dating and broke things off. She didn’t care, so I exercised my power.
I had better things to do with my time.
As Heather said (#23), get out of the victim mentality. sharon (#19) talked about powerlessly waiting for weeks to find out whether she’d be rejected or not. Get out of your egocentric mindset. The man doesn’t know whether he’s going to be rejected either.
The difference is, I never sat around powerlessly waiting for a woman to return my messages. I’d be reading, playing on my computer, going out dancing, exercising, getting together with friends, dating another woman…. Empower yourself. Find something to do.
JB’s example (#18) of women having 100 times more options doesn’t correspond to reality. Online dating certainly provides the illusion that people have options. But I remember leaving Match.com because I had a few relationships in a row. When I got back on (15 months later), about 80% of the women who had turned me down were still actively looking.
I’m sure they were getting contacted more often than I was. But did they really have more options than I did?
Ria 29
well – when the “fun” is only coffee´s, and dinner and all that light stuff, fair do. What happens in the situation, where one person is only considering a casual aproach, whilst another person develops hope and feelings, it ain´t fair. Yes, women often say things and mean other…But who says, life is fair anyway.
Also, Karl, l agree with you – the option thing is overrated. Same as one might think that just because someone is “hot,” her or his dancecard lenght is from New Your to Tokyo and she or he has absolutely trouble free life when it comes to dating. Hell no. Like for instance a friend of mine met this hot 24 year old hot model, who complained that she is single and feels lonely most of the time (No, they didnt start dating after that, and my friend is still lonely as well, looking for the One:) so go figure.
Jewel 30
Heather, you would have been wiser telling him that you wish to marry again when you are in the right relationship for you. Saying you are in no rush to put a ring on your finger is giving away your feminine energy, because it is not you who puts the ring on, but HIM.
Women have the power full stop, because women are the gatekeepers to sex. We are the ones who say yes or no to it. Men don’t.
Oh and Karl, your fiancee has always had the power in your relationship and no doubt always will.
Christie Hartman 31
Helen (22), Karl (28): Bravo on your comments about who holds the power in dating. For ages I’ve seen some women claim that men have the power, some men claim that women do, and both argue vociferously for how unfair it is. There is no benefit to this kind of thinking. There is only one kind of power in dating (and anywhere else) – the kind you have over yourself.
nathan 32
Jewel, I disagree with your assessment. Men can, and do, say no to sex all the time. I’ve said no plenty of times, either because I wasn’t interested, or if it was within a relationship, I just didn’t feel like it for whatever reason. I have a healthy sex drive, but I also am not dominated by it to the point of desperation. Some women think men are constantly pining for sex, are run by their genitals, and are always turned on an ready to go. It’s this kind of warped thinking that both leads women to give into men who are only interested in sex (out of fear of losing them), and also to keep men far at a distance with endless “tests” (because if he gets too close, he’s gonna be wanting some.)
Ria “What happens in the situation, where one person is only considering a casual aproach, whilst another person develops hope and feelings” There’s always a chance that you will develop feelings for someone who doesn’t feel the same in return. It’s one of the risks of dating. You can mitigate some of that by choosing people who have a goal of a long term relationship or marriage, and aren’t just looking for a bit of fun. The point is that just because you have a goal to be in an LTR or get married, doesn’t mean you have to act like you are with someone the moment after you meet them. That’s really what Evan and others are talking about here. Choose people who seem to have similar long term goals and desires, but then spend time getting to know them without obsessing about whether he or she is “The One.”
Katherine Wakefield 33
This is just so true! Enjoy the journey of dating, its not a competition! Enjoy the scenery! Never chase a man.
Jewel 34
Nathan – If you are saying no to sex, you have been approached by a woman who has taken on a masculine role with you and put you in the receptive feminine position. This is exactly my point. No man has ever turned me down for sex, because I would never put myself in that situation with a man.Its a choice
Michael17 35
Helene #12: Well a couple of things.
(1) Many a guy feels that women have all the power in dating partly for a similar reason. There are a lot of “good” first dates that don’t lead to seconds because the woman doesn’t feel The Chemistry was there, and the man is left scratching his head. I mean, they’re both cute and have their lives in some semblance or order, and they both seemed to have a good time, so what else is there at this point, after one date? They still hardly know each other!
(2) If you want to get more power, go on second dates with more of the “Nice But Not Enough Chemistry” guys. You just might find yourself surprised, and so you get yourself some more options after all.
Ruby 36
Michael17 #35
Do you seriously think that the only reason many “good” first dates don’t lead to seconds is because “the woman doesn’t feel The Chemistry was there?” Did it ever occur to you that sometimes it’s the man who doesn’t feel the chemistry was there, and the woman is left scratching her head?
Sometimes – often – the attraction is there for one person and not the other, regardless of gender.
Ria 37
Nathan, my response was more to JS approach in geenral, not my own view. I second what Evan has said – dating should be fun at first and getting to know the person without pressure. My point rather to JS response was that as he was dating women, who he considered “casual,” it might not have been the same for the women he was dating.
I personally like to think that l tie the knots because l love the person, and he loves, me, not for the sake of being married. Simples.
SoPhi 38
The argument over power in dating is really upsetting, maybe if you didn’t view the opposite gender as an enemy or something to conquer you would have more success.
Daphne 39
#12 Karl R, I date through Match and I would not go on a first date w someone who has basic characteristics that I screen for. I have nothing against people who are very involved w politics, or who go to church or temple- several of my best platonic friends are religious. But not for an LTR ! I don’t want constant disagreement, or constantly keeping quiet about my own opinions.
I wouldn’t get to the second date if any of a number of basic features about a guy weren’t present. That’s what I mean about possibly getting serious about someone.
JB 40
@ Christie & Karl
The power I’m talking about is the “power to hurt” someone not so much the power in dating in general.
I guess I can say it in a different way. Yes, I know that “people can only have the power YOU give them or let them have”.
It’s real easy to say, but we’re talking about human beings with feelings and emotions here. Sometimes you can’t help how you “feel” about someone thus it creates the “illusion of power” because you know they don’t feel the same way but you just can’t turn it off and forget it that easy so it feels like they have some power over you. The power to hurt you emotionally and it’s real. There’s been plenty of times I’VE had the power(upper hand) in dating scenarios and I knew it and usually know when I have it. Even down to the moment when the shift happens and I attain it. Certainly a woman I’m not attracted to and don’t like has absolutely no power to hurt me.
@ Karl, I think it’s very rare that “both people in a relationship have equal power” all the time but “at times” I would certainly say yes.
This book was by Dean C. Delis was life changing for me and explains everything we’re talking about in this thread it’s called
“The Passion Trap: Where Is Your Relationship Going?”
You’d love this book Karl.
@ Christie, I read your latest and enjoyed it as well as your others. Just like with Evan’s stuff I don’t agree with it 100%…lol (I rarely do) but I know a lot of guys would get a lot out of it. I suggest the guys on here give it a look. She deserve’s it.
@Ria, Nathan’s right. One of the risks of dating is the monster of you developing deep feelings for someone that has little or none for you. It doesn’t feel good on either side and I’ve been on both recently. I try and be careful not to lead anyone on into “seriousville” if I know I’m just casually dating them. I try and discuss it if I think they may be headed that way or start to feel that way. Nip it in the bud so to speak. That’s why communication is important!
Karl R 41
Jewel said: (#30)
“Women have the power full stop, because women are the gatekeepers to sex. We are the ones who say yes or no to it. Men don’t.”
Are you really that blind?
Last night, when I got done working, I was mentally and physically exhausted. I didn’t feel like having sex, so I went to bed and fell asleep.
That’s how men say “No” to sex.
Daphne said: (#39)
“I have nothing against people who are very involved w politics, or who go to church or temple- several of my best platonic friends are religious. But not for an LTR ! I don’t want constant disagreement, or constantly keeping quiet about my own opinions.”
I’m a theologically liberal Christian. My fiancée would probably best be described as a deist. In the past I have dated:
a Jewish atheist
an agnostic
a secular humanist
two neo-Pagans (both could be described as Wiccans)
a mainstream Protestant
a conservative Protestant
a theologically liberal Roman Catholic
a liberal Sikh
several others where the topic didn’t come up enough for me to recall
As long as you’re not trying to convert the other person to your belief system (or vice versa), there’s really no reason to disagree. The people who are most likely to try to convert you are Christians, Muslims and atheists. Even within those groups, most individuals won’t try.
I have an interest in comparitive theology. This interest was shared by the Roman Catholic, the Sikh and one of the Pagans, so it was a common topic of conversation. The rest of the women didn’t find the topic particularly interesting, so I didn’t try to bore them with my hobby.
The key is believing that the other person has intelligent reasons for believing what they believe. Religious beliefs are inherently unprovable. (If it was provable, it would be science.) Therefore, your beliefs are as likely to be wrong as mine are. Beliefs are heavily influenced by personal experience. Nobody else on this planet has the exact same experiences that I have. Why would I expect their religious beliefs to match mine?
Respect for the other person is the key to making it work.
Karl R 42
JB said: (#40)
“One of the risks of dating is the monster of you developing deep feelings for someone that has little or none for you.”
You can only develop deep feelings for someone you know well. If you are developing deep feelings for someone you don’t know well, these feelings are an illusion. You don’t have feelings for that person. Your feelings are actually for an imaginary fantasy woman that you’ve substituted in her place.
So this trap is easily avoided. If I found a woman interesting and attractive, I asked her out. If I got turned down, I was turned down by a stranger who I barely had feelings for. It’s hard to get worked up over that.
If you get hurt when a stranger turns you down, then you haven’t been turned down enough. Go out and get snubbed until it’s no longer scary.
JB said: (#40)
“The power I’m talking about is the ‘power to hurt’ someone not so much the power in dating in general.”
If a relationship fails, there’s a fair chance you’ll get hurt. If a relationship succeeds, you’ll definitely get hurt.
If you want to avoid getting hurt, stay out of relationships.
I’m engaged. When I get married (the successful outcome of an engagement), there are three possible ways for the relationship to end: with me being a widower, a divorcee, or a corpse. Do *any* of those options sound appealing to you?
Jewel 43
Karl @41. Whether you feel like having sex, or you don’t feel like having sex, you will STILL only have sex if the woman wants to.
Daphne 44
#41 Karl R, you’re very open minded ! The people you dated, I would have wanted to have interesting conversations with, go to lunch, etc. I could not imagine marrying someone who never stops talking politics, or who is sincerely religious. I wouldn’t go on a date w such a person because there’s zero chance of an LTR.
Daphne 45
#41 and, Karl R: I majored in religion and political science at college (two majors). But these are intellectual interests, not my personal beliefs.
Saint Stephen 46
@Jewel (#43)
You’re not getting Karl’s point. What i think he’s saying is that even if the woman want’s to have sex, if he’s tired or disinterested… then guess what, the sex won’t be happening either.
Sex has to be mutually consensual because anything other than that is rape.
Heather 47
This is by far the BEST relationship information I’ve read online. It really put it into perspective for me, even though I’ve read through Steve Harvey’s book a zillion times, lol.
A guy I worked with asked me out (out of the blue) last December, as his date to the city holiday party. I freaked out. I’ve been through the ringer with relationships, divorced twice…I basically swore off relationships and I still am very timid about the topic.
I was very vocal about this with him at the beginning, and it was actually me who didn’t want to commit. He has amazing patience and persistence, and kept asking me out, taking me out, kept in constant contact with me, paying, all the things you say above a man who wants to commit will do. We never kissed or slept together until a week ago. Honestly, at 33 yo, I have NEVER had a real man in my life, until now. No guy ever treated me with such respect, and certainly never went out of his way to show his interest and care before.
The problem is, that I’m not sure what to do from here, because he has really toned down all the stuff he started in the beginning. I think a lot of it has to do with me saying I don’t want a relationship and not really giving much in that way, and after 4 months has he given up, or is he waiting for me to figure it out in my own time. He has never pressured me, but always made it known that he wants a relationship.
He is still always in touch daily, just not like he was at first. I am now at the point where I have really put him through the tests and he truly has passed every one of them. Hes honest, hard working and a great dad, and he’s never treated me with anything but respect. He asks me how my day is going, and tells me about his. Now that we’ve slept together it seems like there is an elephant in the room, so to speak. I’ve been out of this so long I don’t know how to bring up the commitment now. I’m well beyond 15 so the fb status deal isnt going to fly, lol.
I thought a relationship/commitment was pretty much implied after almost 6 months of exclusive dating (I know neither of us has seen other people during this time) and now sex.
nathan 48
Heather, if I were you, I’d talk with him. Tell him how much you have appreciated his patience, interest, and kindness. Tell him that you don’t know what to do now, because you’ve been out of the commitment loop for so long. Just be honest, instead of sliding along, thinking time together will deal with it all. He may have given up. I actually went through a relationship recently where I was put through endless tests, and essentially was exhausted in the end. After a certain point, I realized that no amount of effort and patience on my part mattered if she didn’t want to give some level of commitment a try. So, if you do want to give some form of commitment a try with him, you better let him know before it’s too late.
Karl R 49
Jewel: (#43)
“Whether you feel like having sex, or you don’t feel like having sex, you will STILL only have sex if the woman wants to.”
Whether the woman feels like having sex, or the woman doesn’t feel like having the woman STILL only has sex if I want to have sex.
I just turned your sentence around, and the turned around statement is equally true. By your logic, that means that I am the gatekeeper of sex in the relationship, and I have all the power.
If you’re dating a man, and he doesn’t want to have sex, are you claiming that you have some ability to force him? If not, how can you claim that he is not the gatekeeper to sex?
This power that you think you have, it only exists in your mind.
Daphne said: (#45)
“I could not imagine marrying someone who never stops talking politics, or who is sincerely religious.”
For the U.S. population (adults only):
1.6% is atheistic.
2.4% is agnostic.
6.3% is secular, unaffiliated
5.8% is religious, unaffiliated.
for a total of 16.1% of the population who might meet your qualifications.
So you’ve ruled out 84% of all men before considering looks, intellect, income, personality….
That’s going to make it difficult for you to find someone. It’s not going to be impossible, but it’s probably going to take you longer than you expect.
Heather said: (#47)
“I thought a relationship/commitment was pretty much implied after almost 6 months of exclusive dating (I know neither of us has seen other people during this time) and now sex.”
Unless you monitor his activities 24/7, you don’t know that he hasn’t seen other women.
Unless he monitors your activities 24/7, he doesn’t know that you haven’t seen other men.
Heather said: (#47)
“I basically swore off relationships and I still am very timid about the topic.
I was very vocal about this with him at the beginning, and it was actually me who didn’t want to commit.”
The last time I told a woman that I didn’t want a relationship and didn’t want to commit to her, I meant exactly what I said.
Therefore, if a woman tells me that she’s sworn off relationships and doesn’t want to commit, I believe her.
If she dates me for six months, that implies she hasn’t found someone better … yet. If she has sex with me, that implies she wanted to have sex with me.
The ball is in your court. You told him you didn’t want a relationship. He hasn’t pressured you. He’s waiting for you to tell him you’ve changed your mind (or for you to dump him, whichever comes first).
Heather said: (#47)
“I’ve been out of this so long I don’t know how to bring up the commitment now.”
You sound like a high school boy who doesn’t know how to ask a girl to homecoming dance.
Say this:
“I’ve changed my mind. I want to have a relationship with you.”
M 50
To Jewel re 43: And you will still have sex only if the man wants to. Guess what? If the world’s men go on a sex strike, that means no more heterosexual sex for women.
There is a familiar refrain running through these threads about the man wanting to get laid, doing anything to get laid, the only thing on his mind is getting laid, getting laid, getting laid. Enough! It seems women have so decided what men want that why do you even bother with us? The attitude is a complete turn off and makes me less inclined to want to date at all.
And what is all this about who has the power? So if a woman has the power and proceeds to ignore my texts, never call me and generally act ambivalent without any needs for me during the early stages of a courtship, this is supposed to spur me on to chase her more? Why? I have utterly no desire to be treated like garbage and ignored any more than a woman does.
Women’s interest in men seems to be so “whatever” and conditional. Frankly it’s sickening. I wish men had a third gender they could turn their attention to and maybe receive some appreciation and respect.
Michael17 51
Heather #47: You need to take responsibility. You said one thing and now you are “assuming” something else to be true because that’s what you now believe. That’s how little kids act, to be frank.
First of all, you need to explain to him that your feelings about commitment have changed. It is going to involve putting yourself out there.
Anonymous 52
I think these things are ok after only a few weeks but there has to be a point that the person begins to show you that you are becoming more of a priority. If this is still going on after 3 months, 6 months, one year, you should be talking about it, asking for whatever it is you want and if they don’t get it, either because they’re married to their work, or their parents or they are just that self absorbed, you need to move on.
Jewel 53
Karl, I guess your reasoning explains why the male of the species has felt it necessary to force themselves sexually on women, without consent, for the past several thousand years of history, whether in times of peace or war.
And as for you M, why you are bringing up a ridiculous premise that is never likely to happen, it just reinforces the fact that you have no case to defend.
You both might as well try and convince all the female bloggers on here that men have nothing to do with starting all the wars on the planet either.
M 54
Jewel, I don’t really understand your point.
In general in this world, I think women so take men for granted and exhibit so much contempt for us that I wish we would return the favor and ignore you.
Karl R 55
Jewel said: (#53)
“Karl, I guess your reasoning explains why the male of the species has felt it necessary to force themselves sexually on women, without consent, for the past several thousand years of history, whether in times of peace or war.”
“You both might as well try and convince all the female bloggers on here that men have nothing to do with starting all the wars on the planet either.”
You’re attempting to make a straw man argument (and for a straw man argument, it’s rather poorly made).
You claimed women had all the power in relationships, because women were the gatekeepers of sex. I claimed that men and women have equal power in relationships (at least in modern, American society), and men and women are equally gatekeepers of sex.
Please explain how your statements above support your point, or how they refute mine, or how they even remotely relate to the point we were debating.
M said: (#54)
“In general in this world, I think women so take men for granted and exhibit so much contempt for us that I wish we would return the favor and ignore you.”
If that’s your overwhelming experience, I would recommend hanging out with different women.
People often take other people for granted. People often show lots of contempt for other people. If you are only seeing this as something women do to men, then you must be viewing things from a very egocentric perspective. (Egocentrism may be a natural human trait, but it’s going to hamper your personal relations, including your love life.)
If a person treats others with contempt, they end up gradually being ostracized. This isn’t some mystic karmic justice at work. This is merely human nature: we avoid unpleasant people.
M 56
Karl, I have a sense you are overcomplicating my statements. And I am not “hanging out” with any women. They don’t want to hang out with me and have made that abundantly clear throughout my lifetime.
I stand by my general belief. I believe that IN GENERAL, NOT IN EVERY CASE, that single men treat single women far better than the other way around. And I don’t think it’s complicated why. We want to be with them far more than they want to be with us. Therefore, we walk on eggshells and they can treat us like crap.
Evan Marc Katz 57
M – You’re wrong. I’m not even going to try to be subtle about it. Karl’s point is that you’re viewing it only through your prism. You’re a single guy, you date single women, as a result, you’re highly attuned to how single women mistreat you. Most of my readers are single women who get mistreated by single men. I could come to the conclusion – like many of my readers do – that MEN mistreat women more because WOMEN want to be in relationships more. But I don’t do that either. This is a PEOPLE thing, not a man or woman thing. That’s what Karl is saying, and that’s what you don’t seem to get.
Any reader who thinks that the opposite sex is “worse” does not have a very balanced worldview and it will impact the way you’re received by members of the opposite sex. That’s exactly what you’re seeing, M.
M 58
Evan – You’re wrong. Now we’re tied 1-1.
Is it true or is it not true that many, many women on online dating sites get their mailboxes flooded with messages from hopeful suitors? Is it true or not true that many, many men send out message after message on such sites and are grateful and excited when one or two ladies do them the favor of a reply? This demonstrates to me that men are more desirous of a connection and a relationship.
Is it true or not true that men ask women for a date far, far more often than the other way around? This demonstrates to me that men are more desirous of a connection and a relationship. I could try flipping my hair and smiling but something tells me that won’t get me anywhere.
Evan Marc Katz 59
M,
You’re arguing with the wrong guy. Especially since you’re on my home turf, this is my area of expertise, and you can’t declare that you’re right because you say so. Only I can do that.
So, to your point that more men write to women online? Yeah, so what? That’s biology, that’s history, that’s sociology. Men ask out women because women will generally not ask out men. This doesn’t remotely mean that men want connection more than women.
Put another way: individuals apply for lots of jobs that they don’t get. It’s a competitive job market out there. Does that mean that companies are not interested in having any employees? No, it just means that the best companies with the highest paying jobs have the most competition.
Women AND men want love and connection. Your suggestion that women hold all the cards because they have to say yes when you ask them out is as inane as a woman saying that a man has all the power when it comes to getting married because he has to ask her, while she sits there and powerlessly waits.
You’ve conflated the idea that attractive women have 100 emails to your 3 emails as indicative that they want a relationship less…and it’s simply not true. They just don’t seem to want one with you. Maybe it’s because you believe that you’re so weak in relation to them.
M 60
Evan, I appreciate your responses and as I wrote elsewhere your efforts to help all sorts of people on here.
We must simply agree to disagree.
Evan Marc Katz 61
M – I don’t agree to disagree. Just witness the last comment on this blog as evidence that women get just as hurt as men: “I am however just tired of the dating game right now – people who set up dates and cancel at the last minute, men who mess me around by being dishonest. It is just very disheartening at this age because I know the pool of suitable men is smaller than the women but I guess I am just going to have to hope for the best and get back out there much as the thought of corresponding with some of these men online sends a shudder down my spine!”
Do you think that this is “evidence” that women want relationships more than men? Or do you think that this is just her emotional reaction to the people who hurt her, who just happen to be men?
M 62
OK, then I agree to disagree, and you don’t. Sorry that I presumed otherwise.
Yes, I believe men want to be in relationships more than women do. There is no doubt in my mind that an unattached single woman who wants to be attached can, in the overwhelming number of cases, find a welcoming single man fast. There are millions of lonely guys out here, guys who work, aren’t on drugs, blah blah blah.
I am sorry for her in her individual situation and I hope it gets better. She uses the word “suitable” men. Is she ultra picky? I have no clue.
I get shudders down my spine thinking about writing to women on online dating sites because I no longer do it. I used to write long, detailed efforts and then send them off into cyberspace, never to be acknowledged. On the rare occasions they were answered, the women might write two sentences. I became exhausted and disgusted with that and stopped.
Women are different biologically. I’ve never been one and I can’t get inside their thinking. It seems obvious to me that men have a much higher sex drive, even though when that’s said some women seem to want to get all bent out of shape and insist theirs is every bit as high. It often seems to me that though many women love their husbands, the amazing love of their life is their children.
I often think that even wealthy men who are “suitable” to women must feel empty sometimes when thinking that but for that bank account she has no interest in them as a person.
I don’t want to get too worked up and bash women or anybody else though. For one, I’m just one person with only my experience, and for another, it’s not in my nature to be highly critical. I get a little more pointed in my remarks on here because it’s anonymous and I’m frustrated. My No. 1 target of criticism is in the mirror.
nathan 63
M – I have to agree with Karl and Evan. I understand your frustration. Certainly online dating can be a drag for men. And I’d even agree that some women display a lot of contempt towards men. However, as a man who has never had an attractive income, nor is very flashy, I have had a pretty rich dating life overall. Get dates through online sites became fairly easy once I stopped trying so hard, and simply put up an honest profile, and sent short e-mails with one or two specific questions about a woman’s profile content. Other women I have dated I met through friends, doing shared activities, or even at work a few times. In addition, having spent the last year and a half writing a dating blog and reading others, I have no doubt that women want relationships as much as men. They get frustrated and pissed off just like we do, but there isn’t some war of guys happening.
justme 64
Dear M
I am a woman. I would love a relationship. However, it’s not the relationship that is the goal; it’s the right man. One who is honorable, with integrity, who isn’t old enough to be my father, who is able to support himself.
the love of my life was my husband for 18 years. I love my kids in a way that is incomprehesible. But it was my husband who owned my heart. He left for another woman, strangly one who sees his value in only what he provides and not in him. I believe the true love of my life is still coming. My kids are almost grown and will be gone soon. I want a friend, playmate, confidant,
I fit NONE of your views about women and it makes me sad that you would view me as such a selfish, mean-spirited woman simply because of my gender.
Oh well.
M 65
Justme,
Oh well. It makes me sad that I have tried to initiate relationships with women throughout my life and have been kicked in the teeth again and again and again and again and again. I’ve been thoroughly, overwhelmingly beaten down and treated like dirt. I’ve had one, count ‘em, one girlfriend ever, and that was over 25 years ago.
I am sorry your marriage ended. At least you have kids, thank goodness for you. I never planned or expected to go through life childless. With my family having been small to begin with, I will likely die alone some day.
By the way for anyone reading this, when I said it often seems to me that the amazing love of a woman’s life is her children, I am saying that in a positive sense as obviously that is a wonderful thing and nothing takes a priority over the raising of one’s children and the joy and fulfillment that comes with that.