The Secret to Successful Long-Term Relationships

Evan Marc Katz

It’s no secret, according to a recent post in the New York Times.

“The passion ignited by a new love inevitably cools and must mature into the caring, compassion and companionship that can sustain a long-lasting relationship.”

As a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women, I spend an inordinate amount of time explaining this very simple concept. Over time, invariably, the dizzy sensation starts to fade. The obsession with being together wanes. The mask slips off, the imperfections show and become magnified. Stability and domesticity takes over. Suddenly, you’re not the couple making love five times a week and jetting off to Istanbul. You’re the couple with two crying kids that is so exhausted at the end of the day that sex is about the furthest thing from your mind.

If you aren’t content with a revolving door of partners, and like the idea of partnership and growing old with someone, what are you to do?

This should not be surprising or even disappointing. If anything, it should be predictable. The problem is that people don’t want to accept this new reality, and become disproportionately disappointed when it happens. So they break up, searching for the next high, only to find that the NEXT relationship has a completely different set of issues. The only way around this, I’d suppose, would be a George Clooney lifestyle. A series of passionate affairs, all of which are doomed to end after six months to two years. But if you aren’t content with a revolving door of partners, and like the idea of partnership and growing old with someone, what are you to do?

Sonja Lyobomirsky, a scientist I’ve cited here before, describes a slew of research-tested actions and words that can do wonders to keep love alive.

“Dr. Lyubomirsky emphasizes “the importance of appreciation”: count your blessings and resist taking a spouse for granted. Routinely remind yourself and your partner of what you appreciate about the person and the marriage.

Also important is variety, which is innately stimulating and rewarding and “critical if we want to stave off adaptation,” the psychologist writes. Mix things up, be spontaneous, change how you do things with your partner to keep your relationship “fresh, meaningful and positive.”

Novelty is a powerful aphrodisiac that can also enhance the pleasures of marital sex. But Dr. Lyubomirsky admits that “science has uncovered precious little about how to sustain passionate love.” She likens its decline to growing up or growing old, “simply part of being human.”

As for me? After six years with my wife, I’m happier than I’ve ever been. I don’t miss the heady rush of blind passion, because I acutely remember the other emotions that so often surrounded it: fear, anger, and insecurity. So let me know: do you want to keep that feeling alive forever? Or are you content with the depth, comfort, and safety that comes with long-term commitment?

Read the New York Times article here and share your thoughts below.

Print Friendly

Related Posts:

1. (Video) The Secret To Successful Relationships (According to Grandma)
2. Should Relationships Really Be 50/50? A New Study Says No.
3. What is the Point of Dating When It Seems Most Relationships Are Unhappy or End in Failure?
4. Can We Use Science to Predict the Failure of Relationships?
5. Sex And Your Long-Term Relationship. Not Enough Or Too Much?

Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared.

94 Comments »Filed Under Marriage

94 Responses to “The Secret to Successful Long-Term Relationships”

1. Grace Pamer 1

   I love all the imperfections!  If you are best friends like we are then that passion never really fades.  You love each other all the more, have more shared laughs and history to look back on and know exactly how to make each other laugh.  So for me married life with all its foibles is great fun. Sure you don’t get the butterflies in your stomach so much but what does that matter when you’re happy?
   Some people I guess need that new love sensation like they do a drug. Sure its a powerful sensation but I love sharing my life with my best friend and love.
   Best
   Grace

2. starthrower68 2

   An important lesson young people (and many older ones) need to learn. But our culture gas bred us with the bigger, better, faster, newer etc. mentality.  We don’t always have a good handle on what normal is.  It has been part of the curse of being a blessed nation. We don’t learn how to be content.

3. Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 3

   Evan – I completely agree! There’s a chapter in my book called, “Perfection won’t keep you warm at night” that discusses this very topic. Just because that dizzy feeling as you call it dissipates with time, that doesn’t men its not a gold and lasting love or the wrong man. It’s normal!
   I have been married for 12 wonderful years and I will happily admit that I can still feel that thrill of new love. Recently I was driving down a road on the way to our home and saw him walking. I got the old chills from back when we were dating because seeing him was so unexpected. The idea of mixing things up makes a lot of sense to me to bring back that feeling again.
   I tell my clients that it’s easy to say “no” and leave, but the rewards often come from saying “yes” and working things out.

4. Ruby 4

   EMK, I think you are preaching to the choir here. Most of us reading your blog do want a committed relationship. However, not everyone we date feels the same way, and therein lies the problem (the Clooney types).

5. Anna 5

   If you want comfort and predictability, live with your brother or sister or just stay at your parents’ house.
   I cannot stand this attitude that long term relationships/marriage “have to” lose their passion, their heat and chemistry.  The passion and the heat make life thrilling and exciting and sex exalted—and THIS, I say, within a relationship (I am not talking about superficial fly-by night “chemistry).
   There is a tone to this blog in general that passion and chemistry are chimeras, that they are ephemeral.  Nonsense!  In the right couples, you can “feel” the heat and I am talking about the long-term coupledom that I know…and the one I live 
   As for The New York Times and its “experts”…a dime a dozen
    
    

6. Jenna 6

   There is someone I have been trying to get over for the last few months, and whenever I rightly note that I never had such a great personal connection with a guy in Years I just remember how I would get these horrible stomach flips from not knowing if he was going to call or follow through. However, that doesn’t mean I’ll date the next guy who does follow through, just that I need to realize this is non-negotiable. That aside, when I look for a personal connection, I’m thinking of a guy I can talk to all night and be myself around. That doesn’t disappear just because passion may fade.

7. Evan Marc Katz 7

   Yes, “Anna”, that’s exactly what I’m saying. My relationship with my wife is just like my relationship with my sister. Great reading comprehension skills.

   And since you called my facts “nonsense”, perhaps you want to tell Wikipedia that it’s nonsense as well. This is from the page for “love”.

   “Lust is the initial passionate sexual desire that promotes mating, and involves the increased release of chemicals such as testosterone and estrogen. These effects rarely last more than a few weeks or months. Attraction is the more individualized and romantic desire for a specific candidate for mating, which develops out of lust as commitment to an individual mate forms. Recent studies in neuroscience have indicated that as people fall in love, the brain consistently releases a certain set of chemicals, including pheromones, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, which act in a manner similar to amphetamines, stimulating the brain’s pleasure center and leading to side effects such as increased heart rate, loss of appetite and sleep, and an intense feeling of excitement. Research has indicated that this stage generally lasts from one and a half to three years.

   Since the lust and attraction stages are both considered temporary, a third stage is needed to account for long-term relationships. Attachment is the bonding that promotes relationships lasting for many years and even decades. Attachment is generally based on commitments such as marriage and children, or on mutual friendship based on things like shared interests. It has been linked to higher levels of the chemicals oxytocin and vasopressin to a greater degree than short-term relationships have. Enzo Emanuele and coworkers reported the protein molecule known as the nerve growth factor (NGF) has high levels when people first fall in love, but these return to previous levels after one year.”
   
   Anything else you’d like to say to contradict my science with your feelings?

8. Alexandra 8

   I think I’ll answer for Evan on this one, Ruby. It’s simple. Just don’t date the Clooney types.

9. Helen 9

   The NYTimes article allows readers to comment, so I would like to share my favorite comment – the comment I believe to be most true – from that long list, by “ellen” (bold mine):
    
   “I was divorced (more than once) when I met my husband, a widower of 8 years… We’re married now and share our grandchildren and our children. We have a wonderful life and I’ve learned the lessons well. Respect, honesty, trust, and humility. Sounds easy, but when you keep them in mind, even when the other person is driving you crazy, you make mole hills out of mountains and THAT is the secret to any negotiation, romantic or otherwise. Less drama, people. Much, much less. Save your energy for fun and important goals, not trivial or useless arguments. Choose your battles, and then don’t fight them. Negotiate lovingly.”

10. Alexandra 10

    Anna, I am in a relationship right now where the heat, passion and chemistry you’re describing is fading. And tell you what, it’s never really been there to begin with. Ever since our first date, our relationship has felt comfortable, safe and easy. Not passionate, exalting or exciting. Did I fall in love and have butterflies? Sure. But the butterflies never last very long. I don’t know how old you are. But in my 20′s, I wanted exciting experiences (study abroad, travel, date guys with big circles of exciting friends). Today in my 30′s, I couldn’t care less. I want stability, comfort and predictability. I’d love to know the long term couples whose “heat” is apparent. I don’t see it in any long term couples that I know. What I usually see is a loving, supportive working partnership with two people on the same page. That’s what really matters in the long term, Anna.

11. Evan Marc Katz 11

    Oh, and one more thing, “Anna”.

    Last time you were here (under a different name), you told me that I was “crude”, that you were a brilliant supermodel Ivy League type who cooks, and that you would not be staying any longer.

    Let’s just agree that the last thing is definitely true.

12. Karl R 12

    I’m reminded of something my wife emailed to a friend of hers:
    “Now I have my own cheerleader!  Karl always has my back.  I think I like being married!!”
     
    Infatuation fades. It’s important to recognize that in advance, so you’re not blindsided when it happens.
     
    In my opinion, it’s also important to take these relationship-sustaining ideas and turn them into habitual behaviors. It may not be possible to turn variety and surprise into habitual behaviors, but it’s easy to do with positive verbal and emotional expressions, nonsexual touching, and smiling at your partner.
     
    These are things I can unilaterally do to make my marriage better, stronger and longer lasting.
     
    “Unilateral” is not a dirty word.
    There are several regular readers who are going to be offended at the idea that they’re being encouraged to do something for their partner when their partner may not reciprocate equally (or at all).
     
    I benefit from a good, strong, healthy marriage. I benefit from it even if I do more work than my wife does. (I put more work into some areas. She puts more work into other areas. Any comparison between the two would be apples-to-oranges.) If I insist that our efforts be equal, then my benefit is limited by the amount of effort my wife puts in. (Alternatively, I could try to nag her into putting in the same amount of effort that I do, which would cause enough damage to vastly outweigh the benefits.)

13. Goldie 13

    Reading advice such as the NYT article, to stick it out when chemistry fades, has always puzzled me. Is this something people really do? I mean, we somehow manage not to trade in our child, or our dog, for a new one every two years, because the novelty has faded and we are now taking our kid, or dog, for granted. Normally people just continue to love the kid, or dog, same as they did before with no problems. Why would our relationship with a long-term partner (i.e, essentially, family) be any different? I’m racking my brain trying to think of one time I heard anyone complain that their marriage is falling apart because they no longer have butterflies in the stomach, and I’m coming up with nothing. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen many marriages fall apart, but for valid, serious reasons. Is this danger of leaving a relationship because it no longer makes you feel weak at the knees, maybe possibly overrated?

14. Jackie Holness 14

    Lots of drama in the comments today The article sounds good…but then again I’m not married yet…plan to be married sometime this year…we will see how I feel a decade in…

15. Evan Marc Katz 15

    I don’t know, Goldie. Why don’t you ask Anna?

16. Ruby 16

    Six years is still a pretty young marriage. I have several friends who have been married or together for many years. I’m talking 20-30 years. They all say the same thing: that you can love your partner deeply, and lose the physical attraction for them that you used to have. Most of these friends started out with romantic and passionate relationships, too.
     
    You can try a million different positions, costumes, and sex toys, but sex still becomes predictable. Of course, the tradeoff is the knowledge that your partner loves you unconditionally, and you love them. One couple is even trying an open marriage, which is rather unconventional, but so far, seems to be helping their relationship more than I would have imagined. Definitely an injection of “novelty,” but not for everyone.
     
    Alexandra #8
     
    “I think I’ll answer for Evan on this one, Ruby. It’s simple. Just don’t date the Clooney types.”
     
    That would be easier if those types displayed themselves that way from the get-go, but they often don’t.

17. Goldie 17

    @ Ruby, the way I see it, sex is just predictable in general. But just because you’ve run out of new positions to try, doesn’t mean that the old positions no longer feel good. That’s the nature of the beast. And the knowledge that you both love each other unconditionally, is, in my opinion, a turn-on. I didn’t have that luxury in my marriage (we were together for 22 years) and we still found each other physically attractive. We had sex on a weekly basis the entire time until I said I was moving out. Sure it was predictable, but it still felt good, because, well, it’s sex and how else can it feel? I like what Grace wrote in #1, and Alexandra in #10; each sounds like a great description of a solid, good healthy marriage, that still leaves room for physical attraction. Maybe not the hot and steamy kind that one sees in XXX-rated movies, but still a physical attraction. FWIW, my mom also told me once that, after 30 or so years together, as she and my dad grew closer together, their attraction to each other grew as well. Sure, sex with a partner of 30 years doesn’t feel like the first time with a new person would, but, from my experience of the latter, that’s probably a good thing.

18. Lucy 18

    I expect it to get to comfort level but I don’t want to start that way (if that makes sense) because I worry there’ll be nothing to look back on otherwise. Makes me a lot pickier. At the same time, I’ve always been more passionately attached to relationships which were messy – ‘addicted to the drama’. When I think about this post it makes me feel quite serene and less lonely since I can experience my highs in outlets other than infatuation.   To me it shows why obsessing about love is a bad idea. Maybe George Clooney types are hopeless idealists?

19. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 19

    There seem to be two Ellens on this blog now so I am going to go by Ellen Rebekah henceforth…….
    I agree with Goldie:  Is this danger of leaving a relationship because it no longer makes you feel weak at the knees, maybe possibly overrated?
    Most marriages I know about that failed tanked cause somebody cheated or were seriously, unmedicated bi-polar, or were totally unresponsible, abusive etc.
    Starthrower68- is onto something when she says normal, average, comfortable is NOT EVER celebrated in our western culture. No, we must always be gunning for better, the best, the fancier, the bigger, the more opulent, ad nauseum. Me, as I age, I find myself trying to simplify my life. So, I had been ok with “no butterflies” for years, not just with men, but my worklife. At some point you realize it takes too much energy/time/money/luck getting hired/fill in the blanks to always be searching for that golden grail in every facet of life. About that time, maybe, if you’re lucky, you “go within” and seek your peace there.
    Then, on January 14, 2012 about noonish I met HIM. He was tall and lean and walked towards me just like a cowboy I thought. lol…. And the butterflies began soon afterwards (took about a month for me) for the first time in decades. Then lust. Now, after 15 months, lust only slightly mellowed. Very slightly I might add. But I tend slightly to be the type to put my beloved on a pedestal (maybe cause I learned the art of true appreciation/gratitude a while back) so am enjoying the butterflies right now very much!!! And so lately I think of ways to keep feeling this magic, and of helping him continue to feel the magic. We have spoken about our “magic” and I feel it each time he sends me a romantic text.
    Maybe if we are lucky PAST that three year* mark. Here’s hoping.
    PS Ruby 16: “that you can love your partner deeply, and lose the physical attraction for them that you used to have.” I occ. have heard of this, but imo that is not the sort of love I’d want from a man. Believe me, love them or not, that isn’t sustainable long-term. If you love them, truly love them, you find a way to re-ignite the spark. Lose weight, learn to belly dance, somethin’!!!!
    *that three year mark only applies to the hoi polloi imo. There are couples who are each other’s true, true loves for life, who just glow with their love for each other. imho

20. John 20

    I agree with Evan here. Maybe its an incorrect way of thinking, but after being divorced I just dont think I can fall that deeply in love with another person again. Partly because of age (mid 40s just doesnt have the open-mindedness and unbridled passion as 20s) and the skepticism that comes with “been there done that”.
    I admire folks who can be together for decades. But if you had that long relationship already and it failed, then the odds of it happening again are slim. So you just transition into George Clooney mode of short term gigs. Of course it becomes exponentially harder without his money and looks but consecutive short term relationships is a more likely scenario once you reach middle age.
    This is one of those times where I hope I am wrong, but realistically, long term relationships are usually (not always)  borne pre- middle age.

21. Karl R 21

    Goldie asked: (#13)
    “Reading advice such as the NYT article, to stick it out when chemistry fades, has always puzzled me. Is this something people really do?”
     
    Yes.
     
    Goldie asked: (#13)
     
    “I’m racking my brain trying to think of one time I heard anyone complain that their marriage is falling apart because they no longer have butterflies in the stomach, and I’m coming up with nothing.”
     
    More often people like this end up breaking up before the marriage.
     
    Ruby said: (#16)
    “You can try a million different positions, costumes, and sex toys, but sex still becomes predictable. Of course, the tradeoff is the knowledge that your partner loves you unconditionally, and you love them.”
     
    You’re overlooking another benefit. My wife and I aren’t trying to guess what will turn each other on. We have a few variations that we do, because those are the things that work best.
     
    Anna said: (#5)
    “If you want comfort and predictability, live with your brother or sister or just stay at your parents’ house. [...] The passion and the heat make life thrilling and exciting and sex exalted”
     
    Think it through. If the choice is between doing our favorite three sex acts (again) or combining our 9th, 16th and 23rd favorite sex acts (none of which we’ve done recently), which do you think sounds more “thrilling and exciting” to us?
     
    I’m willing to try new things, because I may discover that I like them. But most of the time I’d rather do predictable things that I already know that I’ll enjoy.

22. Kathleen 22

    John. 20 
    Im a fan of neuroscience. The brain is designed so that you can fall in love at any age so long as you are breathing. I think I just saw an article on MSN about a 97 year old that just fell in love and got married.
    In the 2 years after my divorce I couldn’t imagine falling in love again. You need time to heal and be open hearted also. Short term gigs may be part of the healing process. If depression is a problem that can be helped also.  
     

23. marymary 23

    Re 5 – Thrilling, exciting and exalted?
    i think  if someone wants that from a relationship maybe they are just a bit bored with their their life and are looking for an escape. Relationships are a part of life and that does include annoyance, boredom, tedium, predictability, routine as well as intimacy, joys, love. 
    it,s a relationship, not an extended drug trip from real life. maybe we,re not supposed to feel elated all the time. 
    i know couples dealing with miscarriage, stillborn twins, terminal illnesses, Alzheimer’s, even just newborns. It,s not thrilling.  it would not exalt me at all to be sick,  tired and expected to excite someone.  Maybe I want to feel listless and indifferent for an evening. or a week. Two weeks might be pushing it.
    A cautionary tale is Madame Bovary. For one with a happy ending, sense and sensibility or far from the madding crowd.
    re chemistry and attraction, it means different things to different people it seems. but we would do well to ask ourselves if what we find attractive is actually compatible with a long term relationship.
     

24. Ruby 24

    Lucy (#18 ) wrote: Maybe George Clooney types are hopeless idealists?
     
    In my experience, the never-married ones are picky narcissists. The divorced types often seem to feel like John (#20), until they (sometimes) heal.
     
    KarlR (#21 ) wrote:You’re overlooking another benefit. My wife and I aren’t trying to guess what will turn each other on. We have a few variations that we do, because those are the things that work best.
     
    According to my friends, even those tried-and-true variations get boring after 20 years. That doesn’t man that any of my friends are seriously willing to leave their relationships just because sex has become mundane. In case you are wondering, my friends and their husbands (also one gay couple) are still very attractive and fit people. The couple that are trying the open marriage are also still deeply in love, believe it or not. I’d say they all are, actually. Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but most of them don’t have children. Sometimes I think that the ones who have kids end up focusing on their children more than anything else.

25. Susan61 25

    @John #20.  Interesting but I hope you are wrong as I’m hoping to meet the love of my life at 51.  Maybe that explains why I see the same faces of divorced men on match.com year after year after year.  I’m always amazed – how can they still be on there and how can they not find someone with the legions of available women looking for relationships? But maybe, as you described, since their attempt at long term love failed these middle aged divorced are jaded and are only looking for and/or capable of short term relationships or intense short term arousal(s), and then….on to the next.  Of course, I’m speaking in generalities (as you were also, it seems).

26. starthrower68 26

    @ Redheadindixie,
    I want a cowboy…..

27. Sparkling Emerald 27

    I totally agree with this article & I agree with John’s take on it.  I am 58 and going on my second marriage break up.  I don’t expect to fall head over heels in love again, at my age.  Partly due to “been there, done that” and partly due to no longer having eggs inside of me that want to be babies.  (IOW, no more raging hormones) I’ve had googly-eyed love, up to my rose colored glasses, the kind that clouded my judgement, and caused 2 major mistakes, (but my second mistake led to me becoming the mother of the most awesome son in the universe, so I can never COMPLETELY regret that 2nd mistake)   I wouldn’t mind having another long term relationship (very long term) but I would like something more down to earth, instead of the over the moon feeling.  I’d like a companion who I feel able to be TOTALLY myself, and he feels free to be TOTALLY himself, and we feel comfortable around each other and enjoy each others company, and YES OF COURSE be physically attracted to each other, but just not frantically so.  I just wonder if that’s even  possible. To start off in the comfortable phase, or if it always has to start out with that dizzying feeling, and then fade into the comfortable/companionship phase  ?

28. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 28

    Kathleen 22; John 20:
     
    Kathleen, thanks for saving me the trouble of replying. I met SO many guys with John’s mindset whilst dating and while I was older than most of them (though I did date a lot of guys in their fifties early on, my peers), I just found that attitude cynical, sorry. Implicit in it is a player mode imo.
    90% of these men I couldn’t see anything long-term, and like Evan as soon as I realized this (usually before the third date) I cut them loose. Also implicit in John’s attitude is casually riding the wave of the relationship (like surfing perhaps), emotions in check, heart in check,  til one or the other or both exit ’cause “at this age only consecutive short-term relationships are feasible”. If you truly believe that you will attract only that.
    You sound like a nice guy though so I am not accusing here, just thinking out loud doll.
    Kathleen- ever read Louann Brizendine’s books on the male and female brains? Fascinating. Should have FBed you about it, sorry.
     
     

29. Mark 29

    Chemistry never fades….it evolves. That’s the way I see it.
    I’ve been in both long-term, short-term passionate relationships and I love and welcome each stage of the relationship.
    If you’re in your 30′s and have at least some relationship experience you should know the progression of a relationship from Passionate to shall we say, Comfortable.
    But yes I do agree there are some “drug addicts” out there, sadly.
    Like any drug addict they will continue to search for “that feeling” forever, Lonely.
     
     

30. starthrower68 30

    I have experienced that heady rush and when I saw it for what it was, it spooked me as I saw how easily I could lose control.

31. John 31

    Susan61 @25
    “Maybe that explains why I see the same faces of divorced men on match.com year after year after year. I’m always amazed – how can they still be on there and how can they not find someone with the legions of available women looking for relationships?”
    Easy. Because there are legions of available women who refuse to offer a dime to the dates. And so they become undateable and a budding relationship gets cut off at the knees.  For the record, there are many of the same ladies on Match year after year also. I went out with a couple of women who told me they have been on there for a long time. Very pretty, very smart, really cool.  Coincidentally they also never offered by date #3 or #4. When they got all upset why I dumped them or stopped calling, I told them the reason that it was a huge turnoff they never reciprocated. Instead of trying to fix the issue, they stuck to their guns that women never pay. And so they remained in the dating pool.  But they say they are looking for a relationship. Of course that put me back into the dating pool too since I wont date anyone LTR with that philosophy.
     
    Kathleen @22
    I don’t doubt the brain can fall in love at any age. I am just saying that from middle age on forward, the odds of it happening go down dramatically. Just think of how many couples you know that are together for over 10 years. How many of them met prior to turning 40? And how many met after turning 40? I will bet mega bucks the differential between the two is huge. Most LTRs begin prior to age 40. Thats just a fact and you can confirm it with that little experiment.
     

32. Cat5 32

    I’m going to have to go with Ruby on this one.  Let’s see how Evan, Karl R. and the author of the NY Times article feel after they’ve been married 10 years, 15 years, and 20 years.  Speaking from experience, it’s a whole lot different at 10 and 15 years than it was at 5 years.  Sadly, I cannot tell you what it looks like at 20-years because my ex-husband and I did not make it to our 20-year anniversary.
     
    I’m glad they have a plan, and I sincerely hope that it works for them.  When I was their age, I thought it would work out for me and my husband (now ex-husband) also.  Sadly, it turned out I was wrong.  Now, here I am at 50-years-old trying to figure out what the next 10, 20, 30, or 40-years will look like for me relationship wise.  I will admit that sometimes, it looks pretty bleak.  Having said that, I am still out there trying every day.
     
    IMHO, our society (mostly through the media images we are bombarded with on a 24/7 basis) does not encourage long-term relationships and marriages of 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60 years anymore.  We have developed into a ”me, me, me” culture that encourages people to do whatever makes makes them happy in the moment, rather than working on themselves or their relationship for the long-term because it’s too hard and takes away from their happiness in the short-term.

33. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 33

    John wrote:  I am just saying that from middle age on forward, the odds of it happening go down dramatically. Just think of how many couples you know that are together for over 10 years. How many of them met prior to turning 40? And how many met after turning 40? I will bet mega bucks the differential between the two is huge. Most LTRs begin prior to age 40. Thats just a fact and you can confirm it with that little experiment.
    You’ve thrown down the gauntlet and Evan will now probably research.
    Me, I think you’re referring to the divorce rate among couples marrying for the SECOND or third time. What about the live-togethers? That’s where I am headed I think and personally I think it will mean (I hope) that my bf and I will try harder to stay together since it isn’t legal or binding. And there will be no children so no stress that way. We’ll see….
    PS sorry for the double post but this topic interests me, if only for the obvious fact that’s why we are here (love). I have it on good authority.

34. Kathleen 34

    Susan 61 
    I think there are the same men ( or women) on Match year after year for a few reasons …
    At least half the men I see online in their 50s state are looking for women younger than their own age. Maybe they feel they won’t settle for a woman their age  Whereas  if they finally hit up the more attractive women their age, those women  can date younger guys and can be equally ageist. The 2 paths won’t cross.
    So many are “never married” Im sure some who say they are divorced are lying. Some people are avoidant or are constantly looking for a “new infatuation high” and may rotate lovers by a 2 year time frame  
    Others I think are enjoying being single and having lots of variety after perhaps years in a miserable situation, or they are just cynical as Ellen says. Ive had a blast being single for the last few years and was ambivalent about having a serious boyfriend.
    John …. a few friends like me were married 20-30 years We have fallen in love afterwards so I think theres hope.  Ill have to research your theory. If I went out on a date with a guy who had a chip on his shoulder about paying I would never see him again. Negative energy in any form is off-putting.
    I was always very attracted to my ex despite years of marriage Yes Mark love evolves over years but it is still very powerful. “love ” areas of the brain light up on MRI in couples who have been in love for decades.
    I was watching “The Worlds Fastest Indian” movie the other night An older couple hook up and the older woman proclaims “old people need love too ” It was cute .. and true  
     

35. marymary 35

    I know someone in her fifties who met her husband in her teens. She testifies that the sex does become less intense after the first few years. Let,s not forget that after the first few years they were still very young. Her parents were dead set against the marriage, they struggled financially. But they are doing very well for themselves now. They have two children, both about to leave home. She told me of a conversation she had with her husband, of how much they had been through together. I felt a bit sad for me as I can,t have that as I,m just too old!
    but, she has been my no. one cheerleader in my new relationship. I have another friend in her fifties, been married for over twenty years and now a grandmother already.  she,s given me a lot of encouragement too.  Her husband and my boyfriend are good friends, it,s good to have a community that supports your relationship. It can be helpful to get the perspective of the longterm marrieds ,(assuming they aren’t unbearably smug!).  I remember reading somewhere that the terminally single are not the best people to give relationship advice. I thought it was harsh, we all have something to bring to the table. but it,s good to get different input, not just those who agree with you, especially if it,s all doom and gloom. 
    I used to be very ambivalent about marriage, I especially feared the boredom factor. No wonder I had ambivalent relationships to say the least. Now I think that it,s the height or depth of human love (or should be). i,m talking true connection, not passion. i think the only other contender is mother and child but that often takes place within a marriage.
    if marriage was that bad, why are we still doing it. I,ve been married, it was a disaster, and I’ve had terrible relationships. I was very happy single for years, not just a few months.  I,m the last person who should want to get married but I do. Finally! 

36. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 36

    Ok, third post, so sorry
    PS to John: I live in the Deep South, but it’s FULL of progressive men, liberals, esp. along the coast where I live and in my three years of online dating NO ONE ever took me to task for not paying for date 3 or 4 or whatever. Occasionally I would pay for a round of drinks but I don’t remember picking up any bills, nor any man letting me. So it was a moot point- always.
    My current boyfriend STILL pays for God’s sake (& we’ve been together 15 mos.) but he’s old school. I then pay for some drinks or say “look, lunch (or dinner) is on me”. If I don’t do that he just pays for nearly everything. It is occasionally awkward but he seems to prefer it that way.
    I do pay for my own specialty groceries however.
     

37. Kathleen 37

    Ellen  36
    Yes!! Even in CA Ive never had a date with a guy who inferred I should pay. Most all have been thrilled that I accepted the date and seemed to want to impress me. 
    God knows I pay to look as good as I can for that date!!  

38. Karl R 38

    Cat5 said: (#32)
    “Let’s see how Evan, Karl R. and the author of the NY Times article feel after they’ve been married 10 years, 15 years, and 20 years.”
     
    My father-in-law has been married (to his second wife) for 18 years. When he started getting testosterone injections a year ago (to help counteract his osteoporosis), he commented that his wife was happy about his increased sex drive.
     
    Unfortunately, my mother-in-law’s Alzheimer’s has progressed to a point to where she rarely wants to have sex, so now my father-in-law finds his increased sex drive to be “damned inconvenient.”
     
    That doesn’t sound to me like a man who finds sex with his wife “boring.” I agree that his sex life sounds like it is “different” now.
     
    John said: (#31)
    “Just think of how many couples you know that are together for over 10 years. How many of them met prior to turning 40? And how many met after turning 40? I will bet mega bucks the differential between the two is huge.”
     
    Even if the differential is huge, it wouldn’t prove your point. You’re glossing over lots of other factors.
     
    For example, you’re ignoring mortality. In order for my wife to make it to our 10th anniversary, she will need to live longer than her mother did. Her mother, on the other hand, was married well over 30 years.
     
     
    You’re also overlooking that most marriages begin before the age of 40. For example, my parents are already married. They aren’t available to get married again.

39. Goldie 39

    Here’s my take on the “who pays” thing. While we’re still going on dates and aren’t exclusive yet. If he has asked me out, picked a place, and it is a place that I normally consider too expensive for me, then I assume he expected to pay when he chose it. I’ll offer to help with tips, drinks, do the reach etc but it’s mainly on him. Otherwise, he’s forcing me to buy food I can’t normally afford, which in turn means that I cannot afford him, either. I have to say I never had that problem. I did have one guy who was here on a year-long business trip from Europe, and expected me to be calling and texting him at his international phone number. He didn’t want to get another phone with a local #, because, he said, the one he already had was fully paid for by his employer. I literally said to him “I’m a single parent and cannot afford you”. Hey, it’s the truth.
     
    When we’re in an relationship, we talk about it and discuss who pays for what. Right now I have to really watch my expenses, because I’m supporting two teenage kids, one is in college and one is going there soon. They’re boys and eat a LOT. I own a home as well. etc Basically now isn’t a good time for me financially. If we only did things together that I can afford to pay 50% of, we probably wouldn’t go out, wouldn’t travel, and would go on a lot of nature hikes! So I confess, on the balance, I pay less than half. I try my best to pull my weight, but at the end of the day, I cannot spend more than I have. He is okay with that. My previous serious relationship was with a guy who was a single father and up to his eyeballs in debt. Let’s just say we watched a lot of DVDs at his place. We were both okay with that. Whatever the couple agrees upon is fine.
     
    Finally, first date, for godsakes men, take us someplace easy and inexpensive and just pay the bill. That makes you feel manly, makes us feel like we’re being courted, all for under $10. I tried to have as many of my first dates as possible at a local coffee shop. Though one guy got there early, got his drink, then when I showed up, he told me to go get mine. It came across as pretty weird, I’ve got to say.

40. Cat5 40

    @ Karl R. #38
     
    I didn’t mention anything about sex.  I was talking about marriage as a whole because marriage is about a whole lot more than sex.  In my case, my marriage did not end because of sex.  I suspect there are a significant number of marriages that end for reasons that have nothing to do with sex.
     
    Evan’s original blog post said, “Or are you content with the depth, comfort, and safety that comes with long-term commitment?”  My point was more to whether you still feel the depth, comfort and safety of long-term commitment after 10, 15, or 20 years.  You can try to find ways to sustain the sexual passion or change it up (if you will), but I think that is far less difficult then finding ways to sustain depth, comfort and safety because they, more often than not, get short shrift.  Most people have a tendency to focus on sustaining sexual passion rather then how to adjust with each other’s growth and change over the years, and how that results in changing and shifting non-sexual needs in the relationship.
     
    My apologies for not being more specific in my post original post.

41. A Sheila 41

    John are you saying that by the 3rd date the women needs to ask you back out? How does that work? I could see that being really awkward. I agree that it should be reciprocated at some point, but that seems a bit early to me. Maybe it’s different for everyone. I agree with Mark that chemistry evolves because your partner may do something that makes you fall in love with them over all over again. Whatever route you choose, short term or long term it will take work. The short term dating process will get harder. I mean, are you going to date well into your 60s-70s? Not judging anyone, but it would be pretty hard to keep up with. Wouldn’t you rather have someone to grow old with? I guess I have more questions than answers.

42. John 42

    Ellen #36,
    Glad you found a guy who shares your view that guys should always pay. Thats the reason why you and him are together and not in the dating pool. There are other men like me who feel that a woman should start to reciprocate. There are also women who have no problem with that also. So we search for each other since that would be a good match. Until then we are in the dating pool. I was just answering a question as to why so many women who want a relationship are still looking and that is one of the reasons why. Not the only reason of course. But one of the main ones. I have my own beliefs and so do my single guy friends that if a girl doesnt chip in then she is not g/f material. Thats all.
     
    Kathleen #37
    I didnt infer anything to any woman I dated. I stopped dating them thats all. And when they wanted to know why, I explained it. You make it sound like I had a tantrum or gave an ultimatum. They werent for me for those financial reasons and for me would not make a good LTR partner. So I moved on and found a woman who shares my beliefs. I see nothing wrong with that. Belive it or not, there are women who have no problem alternating picking up the tab. Those are the ones I date and it takes 3 or 4 dates to get that answer. You and I wouldnt be a good match. But isnt thats what dating is all about- finding someone who is a good match for  you?

43. Mickey 43

    @John #20:
    I’d also throw in the fact that once one has been beaten down so many times by disappointment one stops believing there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.
    Sometimes, after enough blows, the idealism of youth gets run over by the cynicism of middle age.

44. Lia 44

    My mother and step-father were married for ten years before he died of cancer.  I know that’s not looong term but not short term either.   I can tell you that they were very, very compatible.  He was her soulmate.  They married when he was seventy and she was in her late sixties.  Their relationship seemed to get better the longer they were together.  He became more comfortable with public displays of affection and she learned not to manage him in any way.  And they loved each other very much,
     
    They had passion too.  I quickly learned to not go over to their house in the afternoon without calling first because I never knew when those two would be upstairs “napping”.  Up till the time he was diagnosed (just before he turned eighty) and started treatment, he and my mom were having sex three or four times a week.  Guess you don’t have to be young to have passion.
     
    There is a great book, “Passionate Marriage” by David Schnarch.   It rocked my world.

45. Henriette 45

    Ruby wrote, “Most marriages I know about that failed tanked cause somebody cheated or were seriously, unmedicated bi-polar, or were totally unresponsible, abusive etc”  I’d add <financially irresponsible> to the list.  
    From what I’ve seen, that “somebody cheated”  often occurs when the marriage has become comfortable but then one partner discovers someone new who creates drama and excitement.  Rather than appreciate that love develops with time, the partner choses to cheat in order to feel those butterflies again.  Guess what?  The butterflies are almost certain to eventually fade with that new partner, too.
     
    I have always found crazy passion disorienting and prefer a slow, steady burn.  However, even (especially) now I’m in my 40s, I find that most men I meet look for that instant chemistry and an intense fire that never diminishes.  Ah, well….

46. marymary 46

    lia
    aw, that cheered me up, thanks for sharing.

47. DinaStrange 47

    @starthrower68,
    what blessed nation?

48. Paula 48

    Preaching to the choir. Agree totally. I am fortunate I look deeper and look at who the man is. Too many of my friends seem stuck in the superficials like height or feeling attracted (obviously feeling attracted is not a bad thing but it’s not the only thing)

    Henrietta: agree with your comment about how you say the butterfly feeling fades if someone decides to cheat on their spouse. too many people just don’t think long term and only think short term

49. Amaryllis 49

     Such an interesting read! Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. I have learned so much from everyone’s post. 

50. Sparkling Emerald 50

    John -
       IRT #31, the whole who pays for the date thing gets very awkward in this post femnist era.  Some men complain that women are no longer “traditional” and that women aren’t women any more, etc. so offering to pay so early on, could come off to a man as being aggressive, unfeminine, or even desparate etc.  And not offering to pay, could end up being a turn off.  It’s a d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don’t situation for us women.   I usually allow the man to pay during the dating phase, but once things hit a relationship phase, things pretty much go into dutch treat mode.  Also, I am not above a “cheap date”.  I enjoy going to the many free art shows around my area.  We can get to know each other,  enjoy the art, and there’s no awkwardness about the check. A hike in the park is pleasant, also, is a good way to get to know someone & is free.  So, since it I could lose out either way, I have just decided to be traditional for the dating phase, and eventually start chipping in by cooking for him, offering to use my free movie passes which I accumulate a lot at work, etc. Then as the relationship progresses even further, I’ll treat both of us, use my car for going out, etc.  It might see a bit uneven at the beginning, but if a relationship ensues,  I do not expect to be a “kept woman”.  I also think I’ll attract a man who is more “my type”, and more “into me”  if I just let him pay in the beginning, and gradually start reciprocating as things progress.
      It’s totally up to you if you want to dump women who don’t pay for their half during the first 4 dates, but I really think if you gave it time, you would see some reciprocity.  Or you could just try some free dates in the beginning and gauge her re-action.  I actually prefer the first “getting to know you dates” to be no or low cost. Feels less pressure for me. But maybe I’m a bit of an odd duck that way.

51. Anita 51

    Qs for EMK, out of curiosity: Is this advice you would have given years ago, before you were married, before you discovered your own LTR potential? Is this advice you would have listened to before you got married?
    Be honest!

52. Helen 52

    To set an arbitrary standard of breaking up with a woman who doesn’t pay on three dates seems misguided.
     
    You’ve probably heard of a book called “The Rules.” What you think of it isn’t the issue. I bring it up because the authors specifically advise women not to pay at all on the first several dates, under the assumption that if they do, they’d look as though they were trying too hard and would lose men’s interest.
     
    What’s more important when you go out with someone is not meticulously observing her financial behaviors (because she may or may not be attempting to follow The Rules or other cultural norms), but whether you feel compatibility with her. That matters much more in the long run. Besides, she may be reciprocating in a way that has nothing to do with paying for a date: buying you something or cooking for you. You wouldn’t want to cut things off with a woman who turned out to be just right because she didn’t pay on the first 3 dates.

53. TJ 53

    This is my first time posting here. I am new to the blog but have gone back through over 40 pages of entries reading because I think Evan is great. I just wanted to say that my grandparents celebrated 70 years of marriage on the day this post was written. My grandma tells me that she loves my Grandpa more every day and that they still have that spark for each other. This is not to criticize anything Evan wrote. Just wanted to put that out there.

54. John 54

    Sparkling Emerald #50
     It’s totally up to you if you want to dump women who don’t pay for their half during the first 4 dates, but I really think if you gave it time, you would see some reciprocity.
    I have never seen a woman who began contributing when the first 4 dates she refused to even offer. While the occasional lady like your self may begin at #5, most will not. Its like playing blackjack and holding a 19. You could hit and hope for the ace or a 2 but odds are that wont happen and you will go broke in playig as if it would happen. Your type is like holding the 19. It could pay off but the odds are against it and can spend way too much money in the hopes of finding the rarity.
     
    Again these are just my views (Evan has also commented on giving a 4 date deadline to see if the girl at least offers). So the way this concept applies to the long term relationship, is that I think both parties need to contribute financially. But what the heck do I know- I got divorced and my ex always chipped in. We agreed on money matters but it still didnt work. Go figure.

55. Evan Marc Katz 55

    Yes, Anita. In fact, it was after giving this advice for a number of years to clients that I finally stopped being a hypocrite and decided to take it to heart.

56. marymary 56

    TJ
    Lovely, encouraging comment.
    Feeling a spark does not, to me, equal the heights of passion that some seem to expecting.  Also, loving each other and spark does still mean that there will be times when it’s just a slog.   I am sure that many couples, however loving and sparky have times when they would just like to be throw in the towel - even for a day or an hour! But you push through it for the greater good.
    The advice isn’t to accept that all marriages become transactional arrangements/ or passionless, boring and sexless.  There is a middle ground between that and a re-enactment of wuthering heights.  Or maybe it’s not a middle ground, maybe it’s a different place entirely. Many seem to be positing that relationships start as a passionate romance that – over time –  fizzles out. Or that the initial passion can be enough to fuel a 50 year union.  I think not.  Love is built and changes and is built again over time. You keep putting in the effort.  It’s not about coasting along on the initial attraction, or expecting passion to substitute for the work.
    In ten years time, assuming we make it that far, I don’t want to be looking back on my relationship and thinking that the best bits had gone, but somehow those best bits are supposed to motivate me here and now.  What motivates me here and now has to be what I do here and now.  Not the past which has gone, or the future which is unknowable.  Of course, shared history is a solid grounding but it’s not enough. Every day both of you show up for the relationship/marriage with your best intentions and total commitment. That’s my plan (having exhausted the other options, including all that high passion/chemistry stuff).

57. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 57

    John 42: Never said I went looking ONLY for guys who would pay. My bf has paid for most of our outings, meals out, most groceries for over a year despite me saying from time to time it wasn’t necessary.
    I also said in my post the arrangement could be awkward but he is old school. Like Kathleen I think it is his way of being courteous, respectful and providing, something men love to do. He is always telling me and others how lucky he is to have me, etc., etc. so maybe that motivates it. I don’t know as I’m not male.
    PS His big ole old school pickup truck is not esp. gas efficient so we take our Prius just about every where we go. So while with me he doesn’t spend much on gas. You satisfied now?
    People should read carefully these posts and not respond in a kneejerk way. I read your posts carefully John- now return the favor.

58. nathan 58

    Sparkling Emerald #50. I understand your position, and do think that when it comes to money and dating, things are fairly confusing these days. Something you, and many other women should consider, if you haven’t, is that women still tend to have the option to wait to chip in. Whereas the majority of men are expected to pay for dates early, as part of “proving” we’re worthy of consideration. It’s something that has always felt reductive to me. That my value as a partner is sometimes heavily tied to how well I can finance dating early on. I’m fortunate to have found a partner who isn’t like that, but the frustration John is expression is something I’ve felt before as well. Even if you’re not playing the field, and not choosing high end options for dates, all these “three or four dates and out” connections get expensive over time. In my experience, it was easy enough to meet for coffee or at an art gallery or something low cost or free the first time around. However, by date two or three, there almost always will be a discussion about going for dinner or movies or something of the like. Over the course of a year, these kind of things add up if your finances are tight.
     
    I do think Ellen is right that some men are also motivated to pay, and see that as a way of being generous and caring. That’s totally fine. Some of these guys are also really attached to “traditional” gender roles in general, which can be a frustration even to women who claim to want that.
     
    In the end, it really should be the quality of overall generosity and caring that matters, not whether or not a guy foots the bill often or always. My experience has also been that whenever a man pushes back on the guys should pay narrative, he usually gets a lot of flack. Sometimes his character gets judged solely for wanting more equality early on. It’s something I’ve noticed a lot of more progressive minded women are cool with in theory, but struggle with in practice.
     
    Overall, I tend to think patterns are much more important than any individual action or handful of actions. How the first few dates were paid for is pretty miniscule in the long run.

59. Amaryllis 59

    @Nathan: I agree. Dating rules have changed. I get so confused when I try to follow    these rules that are obviously out dated. Now-a-day, I just go by whatever feels right. Times are tough now; plus, with the feminist movement going strong it’s only fair that men be treated equally too which is why I offer to go Dutch or alternate paying. My ex preferred alternating and the man I’m dating now seems to appreciate this course of action too. Everyone’s happy. 

60. Karmic Equation 60

    With respect to paying for dates, I’m totally egalitarian. Whoever makes more pays more often.

    I meet people IRL, so, during the course of conversations, I can usually figure out which of us makes more money. If my dates talk about “overtime” or “second jobs”, I know I make more than they, then I either offer to go dutch or just pick up the tab the next time we go out. At some point it goes into alternating or going dutch, if we continue to see each other.

    My last live-in ex made only third of what I made, so I only asked him to pay 1/3 of the utilities, no rent (I paid the full mortgage as it was my house) and to split the occasional check when we went out. When he lost his job, I paid for it all, and didn’t think anything of it.

    My recent ex, who made less than me, always paid when we went out or had take out, when he was employed full-time and worked a 2nd job. He lost both jobs at approximately the same time. After which I paid for all our entertainment and meals when we went out together. I didn’t mind as I knew he was industriously looking for a new job. However, I was highly uncomfortable when (1) he started to run up $100 tabs when we were out (about once a week) and (2) started to ask me for daily loans of $20 to pay for misc (meals at work, gas, etc), which he promised to pay back on payday — he found a new job within a month, but it was full-commission sales, so $ was unstable.

    I had to chase him for repayment every paycheck. The 3rd time I had to do this, I called it quits for good. (I actually tried to call it quits a few times before, but my heart wasn’t into those breakups, so they didn’t stick). I really don’t mind sharing, after all, you “can’t take it with you” — but I didn’t like his lack of character and lack of money management.

61. Sparkling Emerald 61

    John #54
        Can you at least understand how socially awkward it is for a girl to offer on a traditional date ?  I’ve offered and have had some bad reactions from men, like they felt emasculated.  That’s why I’ll cook for them, or suggest that we eat lunch at my place before our afternoon whatever outing, because “I just happen to have plenty of food in the house, and gosh I can’t eat it all myself”.  Or if we go on some sort of hike, concert in the park, or bike ride, I’ll offer to bring a picnic basket and I’ll make some stuff and buy some gourmet stuff. 
    Instead of assuming it’s some sort of character flaw in the girl, how about  creating an opporutunity for her to graciously chip in.  Like invite her on a picnic and say, well I’ll bring the  – - – -. what would you like to bring ?
     
    if a girl tells you it’s traditionally the guys job to pay for dates, playfully tell her, “Great, I love a traditional woman, so when are you going to do the traditional woman thing and make me a nice home made meal ? “.  If she won’t even do that, then she proboby isn’t gf material, but why not give her an opportunity instead of just writing her off ? 
      Also, once we get more relationshippy, if we get invited to a wedding, I’ll ask if they are registered somewhere I’ll offer to buy the gift, ‘cuz I’m a girl and I looooooooove to shop.  Oh, and “I gotta take my dress to the dry cleaners, and does your suit need to go too, because I might as well take it when I take mine”  There are some non-awkward ways for girls to chip in, but sometimes they don’t get noticed because it’s not happening on such a traditional date thing.

62. Karmic Equation 62

    Many women may not agree with this, but I think Andrew makes great points about why women should assume the bill’s going to be split: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/01/who-pays-on-dates.html
     
    There are ways to do this without “offending” the man.
     
    Additionally, imo, “cooking meals” seems more desperate than paying, e.g., you want to “prove” you’re a good cook etc. While that may not be your intention, it may come across that way. Additionally cooking meals is intimate simply because you’re at one or the other person’s residences, which can lead to more intimacy than you wanted if you’re on dates 1-3. If you’re not ready for sex then that doesn’t seem like a good idea. Easier to assume / offer to split the check. That’s less fraught with hidden messages, intentional or not.

63. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 63

    someone wrote: “Times are tough now; plus, with the feminist movement going strong it’s only fair that men be treated equally too which is why I offer to go Dutch or alternate paying”
    I think Evan’s blog is ALL about traditional role playing, at least in the beginning. I.e., women mirroring, men pursuing, paying for dates (at least initially) so imo feminism is totally at odds with courtship. Feminism flies in the face of biology during courtship, sorry.
    Which is why guys like John will come in last.
    Plus, I’ve noticed I just get more excited with the alphas ’cause they tend to be more traditional and providing and well vive la difference! Betas don’t excite me, in or out of bed. But really, it’s all just maya in the end, isn’t it? A game, this world.
    To get back: If I were on a date with a guy who was scrutinizing me like a hawk on the money issue, trust me, he wouldn’t get a second date. If anything, it reeks of OCD imo.
    One of my platonic friends is still single at age 65 because he won’t open his wallet. He’s loaded, no children, a chiropractor all his life, but is miserly. Women pick up on it FAST. Not ’cause they are afraid he won’t take them to fancy places, but because he’d make a miserable life partner.  I can’t bring myself to tell him, but only occasionally suggest he “spoil” the woman. Also, he claims he is desperate to marry but always finds things wrong with every woman he meets. Leads with the negative comments about her, never leads with the positive.
     

64. Locutus 64

    Ellen #63,
    And likewise Ellen, justy like your friend is an extremely cheap guy I would boot your ass to the curb if you never offered to even pay part of a bill after 3-4 dates.  YI don’t put up with that BS.  Just as you say women pick up on cheapness fast, men also pick up on a moocher fast.  A moocher would make a miserable life partner in my book, too.  Your BF payed for almost all outings, meals and groceries for a year?  What a sap!! 
    Some women strangely feel this entitlement, but thankfully in my experience many do not.  And yes I normally pay for the first few dates in entirety and this is usually eating at a good restaurant and drinks after which can easily be over $150.  When a girl does not even offer to pay the tip it doesn’t sit well with me.  I typically refuse her offer, but just to offer to pay makes all the difference because it tells you what type of person they are.  I’ve also had the experience of where an older woman asked me out for drinks and would not accept me paying at all despite my efforts to.  I had extreme respect for that.  She was not rich either.
    Perhaps the best example of a girl feeling so entitled was a girl who was a friend of a female friend of mine.  Even when my female friend went out with her, another woman, and a man- all friends this one girl in particular would NOT contribute to the bill because she felt the male friend should pay for her because he is a guy.  Even though it was 4 people hanging out as friends!!!  I told my female friend that if I was hanging out with them I would have embarassed her infront of everyone if she pulled that stunt.  Some people think they are owed everything.
     

65. Karmic Equation 65

    @Ellen
     
    I think your miserly friend was doing a pre-emptive strike against his dates…if he rejected them first, they can’t reject him. It’s very likely even if he were to have asked those ladies out for a 2nd date, they likely would have declined (as they would have noticed his cheapness) — and his leading with the negatives was a way to rationalize away his own faults (e.g., their faults were bigger than his faults).
     
    It’s really sad when people focus on money overmuch. Usually though, this has roots going back to childhood. My exhusband was overly focused on money (not while we were dating, but certainly after we became engaged) — but he was an extraordinary saver and taught me how to do that… But his mom was on welfare and I got the sense that while he and his mom never went without, that worry about money never left him and he could never have enough.

66. Ellen (Rebekah) aka redheadinDixie 66

    Karmic #65: think you’re right about my miserly platonic friend. Good observation.
    Locutus: you seem new here, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t jump to conclusions about anyone here. Or hurl insults, willy nilly. As I told John, read the posts carefully as you totally misconstrued what I was trying to say. It simply ASTOUNDS me how many people here are incapable of reading a post carefully and/or interpret/read between the lines.
    Re my bf and $, I have racked my brains how to approach the topic without emasculating him ’cause his providing seems important to him. I have told him several times he doesn’t have to do it. Several. What else would you have me do as a “moocher”? And, believe me, he’s no “sap”. He’s alpha and likes to be in control and I’m an alpha female so if he were a sap I wouldn’t have much respect for him now would I?
    But I’ll throw you a bone, kid: I have heard men complain there are too many “professional daters” online, mostly women, who are just looking for free, fancy meals. At least that’s their “take”/beef….
    PS I outearned my ex of 25 years at least half the time we were together and never mentioned it. Ever. All the while raising two kids, one with autism. ‘Cause if I have learned anything about men it’s their whole identity is wrapped up often in what they do and what they make.  So I don’t think that makes me a “moocher”……
    Didn’t Mitt lose ’cause he called half the American population “moochers”? lol

67. Joe 67

    @ Ellen #66:
     
    Off the top of my head, “Honey, you always treat me when we go out, and that makes me feel wonderful because you take such great care of me.  Just this once, I’d like to make you feel that wonderful too.”
     
    Hard?

68. Kathleen 68

    Locutus 64 
    Im guessing your attitude about women paying is in the minority. Amongst my friends thats not the norm but my friends are very attractive women who have many suitors. I wonder if you met your dream woman or someone who looked like your most admired sexy woman whether you’d expect her to pay or kick her to the curb by the 3rd date if she doesn’t .  
     

69. Amaryllis 69

    I know a woman who has been with her bf for 4 years and still have not ever offered to pay for anything when they go out. That made me felt uneasy but her bf doesn’t seem  to mind too much. It looks like some prefer traditional gender roles and others prefer to define their own roles. I say do whatever feels right by you.

70. Locutus 70

    Kathleen #68,
    I will answer your question honestly.  If I met what I thought was my dream woman and we went on a 4th date, wined and dined on all 4, and she didn’t even offer to buy me a lousy drink on the 4th date or offer to pay a tip then she would be outta here!  I don’t care if she looked like the sexiest woman on earth…and she surely would not be my dream woman.  I don’t put anyone on a pedestal unless they deserve to be.  When someone acts that way it is a massive turnoff.  Sounds like your friends are all snobs who think they are God’s gift to men.  They sound a lot like the girl I described in my last paragraph at #64.  Let your friends have all the suitors they want.  I don’t like snobby people and I don’t genuflect to anyone.  And Kathleen you must be just like your friends because I certainly am not in the minority in thinking a woman shouldn;t at least chip in or pay a tip after 3-4 dates.  You are in the minority of women who feel so entitled, though.  Most that I have been out with at least make an offer- even on the first date.
     
    Ellen #66
    It’s not about the money mostly, it’s more a matter of principle.  Someone who doesn’t give back, ever or barely ever.  I could not live with that.  Certain types of people are that way, while certain types totally are not.  I took a cute and really sweet girl out for sushi and she offered to split the bill and I totally insisted I pay and did.  When we went out for a few drinks after to a martini bar, she took out her money to pay the bill.  I insisted on paying, but she wouldn’t have it and demanded that she pay- grabbed the bill and gave me no choice.  That right there makes a woman infinitely more attractive to me.  It shows that she is a fair person and a thoughtful and caring and sweet person.  Again, it’s a matter of principle and what it says about someone far more than it is about the money itself.

71. Sparkling Emerald 71

    Nathan #58
    You said “Overall, I tend to think patterns are much more important than any individual action or handful of actions. How the first few dates were paid for is pretty miniscule in the long run.”
    Yes I totally agree, I’ve just decided to do what feels right in a particular situation.  After reading several sites such as this, there isn’t ANYTHING a woman can do on a date without some dating coach/advice columnist/ etc. saying it’s wrong.  The Rules say make him pick you up for the date, my gut says, if I only know the guy from an online dating site NO freakin’ way, I will meet him somewhere.  If you cook for a man you are “desparate” if you don’t you aren’t womanly enough , etc. etc.  Another read said cooking looks desparate, but I say, if I keep plenty of food in the house and casually offer it to someone BEFORE the date  (For instance “Oh, I was going to make some hot beef sandwiches from last night roast beef, would you like to have some before we go to art show ?) I guess that could be construed as desparate, or it could show that I’m a big girl now who can take care of herself, and doesn’t have that stereotypical refridgerator that contains nothing but a carton of Slim-Fast and a half full bottle of ketchup.  Eventually, I start chipping in, (leaving the tip, etc)  but NO MATTER what I do, there will ALWAYS be someone who says that it is WRONG.  So since I can’t please every dating coach in the Universe, I just do what feel right for me.  I enjoy EMK’s column the most, because most of it resonates with me, and sometime I get NEW ideas, that I haven’t thought of myself, but feels right to me.  The stuff I don’t agree with, I just don’t do.

72. Evan Marc Katz 72

    @SparklingEmerald: After reading several sites such as this, there isn’t ANYTHING a woman can do on a date without some dating coach/advice columnist/ etc. saying it’s wrong.

    (That’s why you shouldn’t listen to anybody else but me.)

    The Rules say make him pick you up for the date, my gut says, if I only know the guy from an online dating site NO freakin’ way, I will meet him somewhere.

    (I say that if you spend a week getting to know him via email and phone, you can trust him enough to pick you up on a date like a gentleman.)

    If you cook for a man you are “desparate” if you don’t you aren’t womanly enough , etc. etc. Another read said cooking looks desparate, but I say, if I keep plenty of food in the house and casually offer it to someone BEFORE the date (For instance “Oh, I was going to make some hot beef sandwiches from last night roast beef, would you like to have some before we go to art show ?) I guess that could be construed as desparate, or it could show that I’m a big girl now who can take care of herself, and doesn’t have that stereotypical refridgerator that contains nothing but a carton of Slim-Fast and a half full bottle of ketchup.

    (I say that you shouldn’t cook for a man until he’s earned it; meaning, he’s become exclusive with you. Cooking too early indicates that you’re trying too hard. It also puts you in a situation where he’s inside your place and probably expecting sex. Save the cooking for when he’s your boyfriend.)

    Eventually, I start chipping in, (leaving the tip, etc) but NO MATTER what I do, there will ALWAYS be someone who says that it is WRONG.

    (Offer to split; be grateful that he takes care of it. Insist on paying on the 4th or 5th date. Once he’s your boyfriend, find a fairer arrangement.)

73. Sparkling Emerald 73

    EMK
    (I say that if you spend a week getting to know him via email and phone, you can trust him enough to pick you up on a date like a gentleman.)
    EMK – I know this is extremely rare (possibly one of a kind) but there is right now a woman who is suing match.com because one of her dates tried to kill her with a knife.  (I’m actually with match.com)  I feel very sorry for the woman’s injuries, but don’t think she has grounds to sue, but I will be making that first introductory meeting, a very short meeting at a coffee house, smoothie bar, happy hour etc.  I also now have a very young room mate, and I don’t want to subject her to any fall out from my carelessness from dating.

74. Anita 74

    EMK@55: I’m glad that you admitted that you changed your mind or your behavior (implied by your use the word “hypocrite”). Self-reflection is good, esp in those who give out advice!
    Next Q: Why did you–and why do you think others–believe or behave in ways inconsistent with the ultimate goal? (In your case and in others, but not all, to have a happy LTR.)
    Maybe it’s just a timing thing.

75. Karl R 75

    Sparkling Emerald said: (#71)
    “After reading several sites such as this, there isn’t ANYTHING a woman can do on a date without some dating coach/advice columnist/ etc. saying it’s wrong.”
     
    You’ll get conflicting information about dating (and about many other things in life). Most of the advice (particularly the best advice) is common sense. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s what you want to do (Evan didn’t follow some of his own advice for years), but he knew it was the advice that worked … even when he wasn’t following it.
     
    The three examples you give are truly trivial. I wouldn’t dump a woman even if I discovered her fridge was empty except for a carton of slim-fast and a bottle of ketchup.
     
    Relationships fail because of big reasons. If you’re worried about which date to first offer to pay for, you’re focused on the wrong things.

76. starthrower68 76

    Just read a brief article about a couple married 81 years.  I bet if you asked them, they’d agree character counts.

77. Anita 77

    Have to say that times have changed. Used to be that the whole conversation about who paid for dinner descended into a rant about women who won’t put out by date 3 when the guy is paying for everything and women defending their chastity. Progress!
    I don’t attribute this progress to feminism as much as to a general evolution toward seeing people as individuals rather than as members of any particular group–at least here in the US. You can’t assume anymore that you know how a member of any particular group will behave or what they believe. In the spirit of this, what’s wrong with initiating the money discussion right up front? Before the first date saying something like: “You know, there seems to be a lot of confusion out there about who pays for what and why and when. I think X,Y, Z. What do you think?” Not a good ice-breaker, but maybe a few chats in.

78. Karl R 78

    Anita asked: (#74)
    “Why did you–and why do you think others–believe or behave in ways inconsistent with the ultimate goal?”
     
    Generally it’s because they’re also trying to pursue short-term gratification which conflicts with the long-term goal.
     
    People eat unhealthy foods because they taste good. They drink because they like the buzz. They pursue the wrong men/women because it’s enjoyable in the moment.

79. Sparkling Emerald 79

    Karl R (#75)
       You said “Relationships fail because of big reasons. If you’re worried about which date to first offer to pay for, you’re focused on the wrong things.”
      First of all, I joined an ONGOING conversation about that very topic, and I am merely offering my POV & experiences.  I didn’t worry about it so much, until I discovered on this blog, that some men are apparently using it as one more criteria by which to judge a woman.  So now there is the infamous 3 date rule for sex, and now there is apparently a 5 date rule for the woman to start paying for a date.  (‘cuz all the other ways we have discussed of chipping in are unacceptable for one reason or another)
      So between the Rules* saying the man must ALWAYS, pay, plan etc., and some men saying one thing, and others saying another, it really is another d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don’t.  You can criticize me for bringing it up (actually I didn’t, the topic was already up). but the reality is there, that is does pose a dilemma for daters.  (*BTW, I think the Rules are 90% silliness)
      One “dating coach” in one of my meet-up groups scolded me for suggesting a date to someone who  asked me out online, when  he ASKED me where I would like to go.  I suggested the library, because they have an art gallery in there that is free (my way of skirting the who pays dilemma) & it’s in a nice park.  She grabbed my hand (playfully) & smacked it and said “I’m spanking your hand for that, ALWAYS have the man plan & pay”.  I told her, “But he ASKED me for my input,” and she insisted that I keep throwing the question back at the man, etc.  I thought her advice was a bit whacked. 
      I’m just going start keeping at least $30 dollars in small bills in my wallet on dates, and gauge each situation on a case by case basis, and act accordingly. And when asked for suggestions on where to go, suggest the numerous freebies that I know about (and I won’t tell that “dating coach” about it)
     
      And as if this wasn’t confusing enough, I just had lunch with my best friend today, and she told me about her last date.  The man paid for lunch, then commented that there was a Cheesecake Factory across the street.  She offered to treat him to dessert at Cheesecake Factory and he said “Why would you do that ?”  and she said “‘cuz that’s just the way I am”. Apparently, he wasn’t to pleased.  I too have had negative experiences when I have offered to pay my half, leave a tip.  To make matters even more complicated, I am back in the dating game jungle after 25 years of being out of it, and all the rules have changed AND technology has changed the game.  (in my last incarnation as a single person, there was no texting, e-maiing, cell phones, caller ID,.facebooking etc.) So on top of not knowing what expected of me socially, I feel inept on some of the technology to boot.
     
     

80. Karl R 80

    Sparkling Emerald said: (#79)
    “She grabbed my hand (playfully) & smacked it and said ‘I’m spanking your hand for that, ALWAYS have the man plan & pay’.”
     
    If the man is a savvy dater, he will know that he is supposed to plan & pay for the first date. (It makes him appear decisive and confident, which increases his likelihood of getting another date.)
     
    Do you consider “savvy dater” to be a dealbreaker criterion?
     
    Dating is a skill … and it’s unrelated to being a good partner in a long-term relationship. Therefore, I was perfectly willing to accommodate unskilled daters … just like you did. Your dating coach isn’t willing to accommodate unskilled daters.
     
    Quiz time:
    What do you think is in your best interest?
     
    Sparkling Emerald said: (#79)
    “So now there is the infamous 3 date rule for sex, and now there is apparently a 5 date rule for the woman to start paying for a date.”
     
    Over half the people in the dating pool don’t know the rules. The remainder break them occasionally (or frequently). Why would you care about faithfully following the rules? Nobody else is.
     
    Sparkling Emerald said: (#79)
    “some men saying one thing, and others saying another, it really is another d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don’t.”
     
    Why does that matter?
     
    You aren’t going to get 100% of men to like you, or be interested in you, or even be attracted to you.
     
    It really matters to a few men. You obviously can’t please them all. Which people do you want to please?
     
    People typically end up marrying those with similar financial views. More importantly, financial disagreements are a frequent cause of divorces. I’d highly recommend that you find someone who shares your point of view when it comes to finances.
     
    Quiz time:
    How do you avoid driving off the person who shares your outlook?
     
    Sparkling Emerald said: (#79)
    “You can criticize me for bringing it up”
     
    I’m not criticizing you for bringing it up. You presented it as a dilemma. I assumed you wanted helpful advice about how to solve that dilemma.
     
    I have read multiple dating coaches. I ran across conflicting information too. Everyone does. It doesn’t make the advice worthless. It just means you have to be selective about how you follow the advice.

81. Sparkling Emerald 81

    Here’s some of the conflicting info I’m talking about

    From one of EMK’s articles (Are women good, men bad ? (not his words, a quote from another article)
    According to author Suzanne Venker, “the so-called rise of women has not threatened men. It has pissed them off… Men want to love women, not compete with them. They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them.”

    But on other threads, men are railing against women if they don’t cough up cash by ex # of dates. (no other acceptable way to chip in)
    So which is it, women are spoiled little prima donna’s who expect to be a kept woman, even if they make tons of money themselves ? Or are women now man-hating femi-nazi’s who compete with men, and won’t allow them to provide for them ? According to the Fox (Fake) News report, every single man they interviewed who said they wouldn’t marry, said it’s because “women aren’t women” any more.

    I just don’t think a man should judge a woman based on weather she reaches for her wallet during the dating phase. It’s really no indication of how she will handle finances in the relationship phase. Don’t assume she’s unwomanly because she offers to go dutch on a first date, don’t assume she’s a prima donna ‘cuz she hasn’t coughed up cash by a 4th date.
    No, I don’t think a man is bad relationship material if he’s not a saavy dater. But if he NEVER comes up with an idea, it’s a turn off. It’s also a turn off to me, if he NEVER let’s me come up with an idea either or NEVER asks for my input.

82. Joe 82

    @Sparkling Emerald #81

    Of course I expect Karl R to have a MUCH more erudite response, but right off the top I see this:

    [i]I just don’t think a man should judge a woman based on weather she reaches for her wallet during the dating phase. …
    No, I don’t think a man is bad relationship material if he’s not a saavy dater. But if he NEVER comes up with an idea, it’s a turn off.” [/i]

    So Emerald, [i]men[/i] aren’t permitted to have their own “turn offs” about women they date, but [i]you’re[/i] allowed to? Not very consistent, eh?

83. Sparkling Emerald 83

    Joe #82 you said
    So Emerald, [i]men[/i] aren’t permitted to have their own “turn offs” about women they date, but [i]you’re[/i] allowed to? Not very consistent, eh?
    __________
    Of course everyone is allowed to have their turnoffs, but this ONE turn off is one I don’t understand and is the ONE I commented on, since this is the topic of conversation.  I never said men aren’t allowed to have ANY turns off, I am just puzzled by THIS one, since there’s a fairly easy solution, keep those first dates , low cost or no cost.  I also am puzzled that no one  understands the d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don’t that this brings up.  It’s not like dutch treat has ALWAYS been the norm, and suddenly women are demanding to be treated to 5 stars dinner from a guy they met on the internet and never face to face.  Maybe it’s an age thing, but men who  don’t like women offering to pay in the beginning are not a slim minority in my age group, maybe in the younger age group it is.
    I can understand a lot of mens’ turn offs, and some I simply don’t understand.  This is one of them.  And men are “allowed” to have them, but I’m also allowed to not understand them.
     
    I take it you think I’m wrong for being turned off by indecisive men ?
     
     
     

84. Karmic Equation 84

    @Sparkling #83

    If it’s a d@mned if you do and d@mned if you don’t proposition, why are you ok with the d@mned if you do part (“If I pay, I offend him, so it’s better that I don’t pay for anyone.”) rather than the d@mned if you don’t part (“If I pay, and he get’s offended, what a jerk for being so ungracious about my generous gesture.”)

    My take is that MOST women (A) LIKE that the man pays (she equates it with “chivalry” AND she gets the BONUS of NOT having to share her wealth) and (B) DISLIKE it when SHE pays (she equates that with UN-chivalry on his part AND would PREFER not to share her wealth anyway) — so BECAUSE the UN-chivalrous guy satisfies HER OWN PREFERENCES (to not share her wealth), it SOUNDS better to herself to JUSTIFY not paying because of potential offense than to ADMIT one’s preference to not share one’s wealth.

    It’s NOT WRONG to think or want (B). It’s just wrong to NOT ADMIT to oneself what’s really going on. It’s self-deception to can maintain a FALSE self-image (“I’m a good person because I don’t want to offend”) than to admit to having a preference that seems selfish (“I don’t WANT to share, darn it) — because NO ONE wants to believe they are selfish

    It’s my belief that LACK of SELF-AWARENESS is a cause of a lot of insecurities. It’s BETTER to be self-aware and see yourself as YOU ARE, “warts and all”, than to ignore (or worse SELF-DECEIVE that you don’t have) the warts and hope other people don’t see or call attention to them. The BENEFIT of seeing your own warts is you can then work on GETTING RID of them if they really bother you, OR you can ACCEPT them, “Hey, *I* like my warts. If you don’t like them, then leave.” — So getting rid of insecurities starts with ADMITTING you “have warts.” Because if you can’t admit it TO YOURSELF, you WILL BE hurt or become defensive or insecure if someone points them out to you. No one should be surprised at their own warts. They should know where each and every one of them are located, and then make a CONSCIOUS decision on what to do about them.

85. Karl R 85

    Sparkling Emerald said: (#81)
    “I just don’t think a man should judge a woman based on weather she reaches for her wallet during the dating phase. It’s really no indication of how she will handle finances in the relationship phase.”
     
    I’m not sure what you mean by “dating phase” and “relationship phase”.
     
    However, I don’t think I’ve ever made it to the 3rd date without the woman at least offering to pay for something. I don’t ever recall reaching the point of exclusivity without the woman paying for something (either insisting on paying, or buying something like a drink before I was aware that she was doing so).
     
    If you’re behaving differently from everyone else the man dates, that will stand out.
     
    Regardless of whether a man should judge a woman for that, it’s quite possible that he will.
     
    Sparkling Emerald said: (#81)
    “I also am puzzled that no one  understands the d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don’t that this brings up.”
     
    Do you consider all men to be equal? Are there men whom you will avoid dating even if they are interested in you?
     
    You can’t please everybody, but it’s quite likely that you can ensure that most of the men who are turned off are the ones you didn’t want anyway.
     
    Let’s say you offer to pay regularly and insist on paying occasionally. You will probably cause the Fox interviewees to lose interest in you. If you’re the kind of person who doesn’t agree with Fox news on anything, how are you “d@mned” by that action?

86. Joe 86

    (Different Joe than #82)
     
    If a guy won’t accept a token offer (dessert at the Cheesecake Factory), is he really the kind of guy you want to be dating anyway?  A guy like that is likely to end up with a golddigger, and deservedly so.

87. Ruby 87

    By “dating phase”, I think Sparking Emerald is referring to the the early stage of dating, before two people are exclusive, or an actual couple. “Relationship phase” would refer to “boyfriend/girlfriend” dating.
     
    I wouldn’t put much stock into the Suzanne Venker article. And the “3-date rule” went out the window long ago (at least for me). Then again, it depends on your personal comfort level.
     
    I think there’s a third reason women like it when men pay, and it’s also a reason men like to pay; it shows a certain level of interest. Now, a woman can – and should – offer some money or to reciprocate in some way, at least after the first 2-3 dates. If she prefers offering to split the check on the first date, that’s up to her. However, in my experience, men who have been really interested in me won’t let me pay for much in the early phase of dating. The ones who wanted to split the check from the beginning never had any real interest in me. So even if you offer to pay, many men won’t accept it. Good guys don’t get offended by it, though.
     
    I think that’s also why the dating coach chided Sparking; she believes that a man who takes the time to actually plan a date is showing a higher level of interest, and a desire to please her, than one who asks the woman to do the “heavy lifting”.

88. Sparkling Emerald 88

    Karl R (85) – I feel like i’m not being understood, either ‘cuz I’m not explaining clearly, you aren’t understanding, or a little of each, but really, I can’t believe someone else had to explain the difference between dating and being in a relationship. BTW, Ruby  (87)(good job of explaining.)
    As for “Let’s say you offer to pay regularly and insist on paying occasionally. You will probably cause the Fox interviewees to lose interest in you. If you’re the kind of person who doesn’t agree with Fox news on anything, how are you “d@mned” by that action?”
    Have no idea what you are getting at, what your point is,  how it relates to anything I said, or if you are attempting to be humorous. ????????????????
     
     

89. Sparkling Emerald 89

    Joe 86

    (Different Joe than #82)
     
    If a guy won’t accept a token offer (dessert at the Cheesecake Factory), is he really the kind of guy you want to be dating anyway?  A guy like that is likely to end up with a golddigger, and deservedly so.
     
    I don’t really know, it wasn’t my date, it was a date recently re-counted to me by a friend.  She told me OTHER stuff about him that was also a turn off, and she doesn’t plan on going out with him again.  So if the date went the way she said it did, he’s probobly not my type, and since NONE of her guys that I have ever met have been my type, he probably wasn’t my type.
      I really think this is an age & upbringing thing.  And maybe and age/East Coast thing, because I had it pounded into my head to have a man pay, plan, etc by my upbringing. In the mid – late 70′s, I had a few guys ask me to go dutch, and I did, since they asked me too & didn’t expect me to read their minds (and maybe it was my mini rebellion against my upbringing). But if a guy asked me out, and didn’t bring it up, then he paid. If there was anything to pay for. (did alot of freebie stuff) The few times I said “may I leave a tip” or some such thing, it was not well rec’d.  Also, when I was dating in the mid to late 70′s, there was a lot of hanging out as opposed to going out, (the free community center was  one of our big hang outs)   So since playing ping pong was free, the only “dutch” dating going on there was if I bought my own soda from the vending machine.  My first serious boyfriend insisted on paying for everything,  but that could be because he was quite a bit older, and I was in high school or it could be because he was a bit of a control freak. 

90. marymary 90

    i,m six months in and he is still paying at his insistence.  i have paid twice. When I thank him for treating me, he thanks me right back. Could be cultural, he was born in africa but a us citizen.  My first boyfriend was hong kong born and paid for everything. that,s still quite normal for HK. even my brother over there expects to pay for me but more readily allows me to pay. with the boyfriends in between, it varied with him paying more, me paying more, or roughly equal. 
    i can see why sparkling is confused.  I think evan is spot on above, it,s straightforward, traditional, romantic and not too spendy for the man, unless he is dating a helluva lot and choosing expensive places.  I,m more diffident about being picked up at home. Agree re cooking.  Boyfriend didn,t see the inside of my flat for weeks.
    funny how this keeps coming up, I had to check the topic and this is offtopic no? Through I expect that being able to navigate this without resentment and horrible awkwardness is a good sign for the future. If the two of you get  that fraught over who pays for a pizza, maybe you,re not a good match. If one of you is being ripped off, not a good match. If one of you is rude about it, etc.  I think that,s what Karl meant re Fox News interviewees.  if you act in line with your beliefs, morals and good intentions and it offends someone for no apparent reason other than a gross generalisation blaming the opposite sex, you don,t want them anyway. Goes for men and women.

91. Sparkling Emerald 91

    Marymary – Thanks for understanding my POV.

92. Sammy @ OceansofPeople.com 92

    Commitment is the key to long lasting relationship. Every couple should have a strong commitment to their relationship.

93. Natalie 93

    I am in my 50s. My boyfriend of 5 years wants to live with me desperately, calls me every day, wants to spend every weekend with me, but..
    1. he invites himself to my place instead of making plans to entertain me
    2. he always discusses his health and his problem with his grown up children
    3. I feel sad and empty after spending time with him ( I make reservations, find interesting plays, skiing resorts etc, he just follows..)
    4. there is no sex between us for more than year
    I do not like the setting, but afraid to stop seeing him. What if he is depressed and needs help ?
    Thank you !

94. JoeK 94

    @Spaeking Emerald
     
    The problem is this: “I just don’t think a man should judge a woman…”
     
    You don’t get to choose what men judge you for, and in this statement you’re saying men aren’t permitted to judge women for something, yet you are permitted to judge men for whatever you want. That’s hypocritical.
     
    Even in your response you’re still defending your position, yet changing the definition and challenging my criticism. That’s called using a strawman and your use of it is to deflect from the original position and try to make me look like I’m being disingenuous.
     
    Frankly I couldn’t care less what your turnoffs are – they’re YOURS. But you seem perfectly happy to judge men’s turnoffs and tell them they “shouldn’t” have them.
     
    As Evan repeats ad nauseam – telling men what they “should” do/desire/think is useless.

Comments RSS

Leave a Reply