The Secret To Understanding Men: They Don’t Go Both Ways
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Hi Evan,
I finally met an emotionally available, nice guy after going through my fair share of emotionally unavailable men. We’ve been dating for about two months now and have hit a rough patch. I am starting to feel like the man in the relationship. He reacts emotionally instead of rationally all the time. He wants to talk about feelings all the time. I find he is emotionally needy.
I am an independent woman, and I like my time to myself. I do not need to talk about feelings.
Sometimes I feel like he says things in a passive-aggressive way just to see how I will react. I feel like I have to always reassure him. This is really stressing me out and turning me off. I told him that it would be best for him to keep his emotions to himself right now and once things get more serious, then we could talk more about feelings. At first he said that I was right and that this behavior has ruined his past relationships, but then he says that it turns him off that I don’t want to talk about feelings.
He feels like he has to hold back with me. I feel like all this talk about feelings is just too much too soon.
My dilemma is that he’s a nice guy that I can trust, he treats me like no man has ever treated me, we have common interest and goals, but I’m turned off by his neediness. I just don’t want to feel like the man in the relationship. He has already cried four times when we have discussions where I tell him that all of it is just too much for me. I’m wondering if I should just call it a loss and move on? I want a nice guy, but not an emotionally needy one. Is this a deal breaker, or is this something I should just give more time to see if he can overcome it?
Katie
Dear Katie,
My second book, Why You’re Still Single, contains a chapter called “Men Don’t Go Both Ways” which addresses your question directly. The short version is this:
But your constant frustration that Marlboro Man “doesn’t open up” or that Sensitive Artist is “too needy” is pretty futile.
There are two poles that women find attractive: The Marlboro Man and the Sensitive Artist. The Marlboro Man is traditional, doesn’t like to talk about his problems, doesn’t like to listen to yours, but he is a MAN. He’s a stoic, and if he has any emotional needs, you’ll never know it. Problem is that it’s hard to feel CONNECTED to a guy like this. Sharing information is what makes us close, and if you have a guy who really doesn’t roll like that, you’re going to constantly wonder where you stand and what he’s thinking.
Then there’s the Sensitive Artist, who is as much of an open book as your best girlfriend.
You share everything with him and he shares everything with you. You truly understand each other. Problem is, when a person shares everything with you, there will be times where he will seem weak and vulnerable. This doesn’t always inspire confidence like the Marlboro Man.
Men Don’t Go Both Ways means that whether you’re expecting the Marlboro Man to start sharing or expecting the Sensitive Artist to stop sharing, you’re wasting your time. They’re DIFFERENT guys with different strengths and weaknesses. Thus, as a woman, you have a choice: put up with the stoicism of a traditional man’s man, or put up with the emotional rollercoaster of a sensitive guy.
But your constant frustration that Marlboro Man “doesn’t open up” or that Sensitive Artist is “too needy” is pretty futile.
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82 Comments »Filed Under Favorites, Understanding Men
Evan Marc Katz 1
Hope you enjoyed today’s post.
I’ll be back with a new-looking blog and website in early 2009.
I appreciate your readership and wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Your friend,
Evan
moonsical 2
Merry Christmas Evan! But aren’t you Jewish? Happy Hanukkah, as well, if so!
I have to say, I find men run on a continuum, as do women. The Marlboro Man can and does share feelings and occasionally tears comes with them. Some are more forthcoming than others; I think it matters how much they trust you. The Sensitive Artist can suck it up and be the man, for sure. There is a whole range…sounds like this gal has a weeper.
Listen. Validate. That’s about all you can do. Time will tell if this is just a rough patch or if professional counseling is in order (I say this only because he mentioned he’s ruined past relationships with this behavior.) But, as an emotional woman myself…who is also very independent…being HEARD is so validating. The sooner you are able to practice reflective listening and let your man know he is heard and validated, the less tears you will have. There is a great book about (called?) “Non-Violent Communication,” that has a section on empathic listening that might help. If you are pushing your own agenda, you are not listening. Find out what he wants, and even if you can’t offer it right now, affirm it. Just my two cents…
Happy Holidays!
moon
$Francisco 3
Thanks for not just playing up the virtues of a “needy” nice guy Evan, it’s not surprising that there are women who aren’t necessarily attracted to guys who are so “in touch with their feelings.” Having feelings while being able to emote and expound on them is one thing but doing so at the detriment of a relationship is always questionable.
I completely agree that both men and women should be certain about the type of partner that they would prefer as well as understand the type of partner that they would be in a relationship; who they would authentically be. Too many time people present themselves as the perfect partner just to settle into their true selves after time. Until people are able to embrace who they are while feeling comfortable in presenting their true selves to a partner there will be a chance of relationships suffering after time has past to allow each partner to “settle in.”
Steve 4
Katie;
Evan delineated two extremes. There are men who fall between those two extremes. I’m not saying the one that is on the right point of the continuum for you is out there in quantity and easy to find. I think the important point that Evan made is that you will be less likely to find happiness by expecting somebody to be someone that they are not.
You wrote yourself that your boyfriend has a pattern of neediness. 2 months can feel like 2 centuries when you have been dating someone you really like, but still it is only 2 months. Take Evan’s good advice, assume he isn’t going to change that much and decide if you want him the way he is.
Steve 5
Evan;
I know you are an atheist with a Jewish background, similar to me. Have a happy Solstice!
Shalini 6
I agree with “moonsical”. If you listen to this guy he might gradually change.
I feel that although this guy does really seem to be needy and has issues. But its also true that if you sometime you want your guy to hear you out when you want to went your feelings you should be ready to do that for him too.. Listening to your partner’s feelings is what makes relationships stronger. If you think the problem will be solved by just ignoring then it is just going to increase.
You have to know that no one is perfect.. you aren’t too. Maybe you dont feel the need to share your emotions but you might have other problems that might irritate your future partner and if he leaves you for them he is not worth it either.
What i want to say is that if you cant live with this aspect of his behaviour then leave him rather than expecting him to change.
Lance 7
A lot of people fall in between these two archetypes, but Evan is right, no one is all things. I used to be the sensitive artist, and now I’m completely on the other side in Marlboro Man territory (although I don’t smoke). I have occasional bouts of talkiness and feelings sharing. When in doubt I err on the side of manliness. This gets me in trouble sometimes but it’s being true to my core.
Katie’s guy sounds like a big wussy and he needs to man up. No one should be that needy and unattractive. Take a shot and try getting him to read some books, like David Deida, and maybe having a heart-to-heart with his manly friends. I have a couple of old guy friends that give me tough love whenever I start to screw up with the ladies. I can even call them up and request these reality checks. Breaking up is the ultimate solution and not necessary right off the bat. Get creative.
Cilla 8
Well, I agree with Shalini and Moon–sort of. This guy will change all right, but it probably won’t be for the better. Think about it: if this is what he’s comfortable showing you at 2 months, imagine what’s waiting down the line. Sorry, I’m as attracted to the sensitive artist type as much as the next gal, but weeping 4 times already since you’ve started dating? That would be a red flag to me that this guy has more deep seated psychological issues waiting to surface (remember all those relationships he ruined in the past?). I say follow Steve’s advice and think about finding someone who is more of a happy medium between the two personality extremes.
Margaret 9
I am with Lance , Cilla, Steve on this one. Major red flags. I had a friend who married someone like this because he was “nice” and treated her like gold. We all tried to warn her. Seven precious years of her life wasted, she finally divorced him. Within a year, she was remarried to someone who was a much better fit, and she is much happier.
This man’s behavior would be a MAJOR turn off to me. He is being a wuss and manipulative with the tears and other orchestrations. I disagree that it has to be Marlboro or Artist. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.
Run, Katie, run!
Steve 10
If this situation was flipped on its head, if a guy was complaining about a needy woman weeping about relationship issues, 4 times, in a two month old relationship I think people would say the same thing. 2 months is too soon to be crying over relationship issues, or even having relationship issues.
moonsical 11
Depends on how fast a relationship progresses. Sleeping together, intimate sharing…gets people mighty attached and pulls up a lot of their, “stuff.” It’s all relative…does he just get misty, or is he sobbing? On what topics? For how long? What are you doing that contributes to the problem? (Such a hard one to ask ourselves.)
I think two months is about the right time to find a fly in the ointment.
Only Katie can be the judge as to what next to do. Some people are, “keepers,” but need help to get over something they’re stuck on. I did mention a while back a (male) friend who is great but apparently gets anxious in relationships…starts calling his girl on a girl’s night out and so on. He is not a bad man, but he seems unable to help himself. Draw your boundaries and suggest outside help. This may turn into something you joke about down the road…
It’s true: there is something, “wrong,” with everyone. Hold ‘em or fold ‘em…but it’s always going to be something.
moon
moonsical 12
This is much more disturbing to me than just tears: “Sometimes I feel like he says things in a passive-aggressive way just to see how I will react. I feel like I have to always reassure him.”
But again…what’s your part in all this?
Personally (also being independent) I have noted in myself that I likely don’t give enough prompts as to how I feel about someone…so they really don’t know. Though so far no weepers. Some outbursts, though, from time to time, when the man is stressed out… Gosh, why *can’t* they read our minds? Well…probably for the best! ;~)
moon
Seductress Within 13
Katie,
He’s cried 4 times in 2 months when you tell him “all of it is just too much for me.”
It sounds like he wants YOU to be different than you are which isn’t likely to happen is it? So don’t expect HIM to be different either. This is who he is. He is emotional, very emotional and it’s not going to change.
Because you are naturally so different from him and he’s not getting whatever it is he needs from you (I assume more emotional and verbal displays) it’s probably making him feel vunerable and insecure thereby making his already needy personality worse.
You two don’t sound like a good fit at all. It sounds like you both really like some other qualities in each other and are hoping and trying to change the ones you don’t like.
Follow your gut, you have your answer.
Good Luck!
Sayanta 14
Great post- I think Evan is right about not expecting the Marlboro Man/Sensitive Artist to come together in one package (but is it impossible? Look at the Stones- or Beatles, or Dylan or any other tobacco-hoarding rocker ladykiller who sings sweet sensitive words the next minute).
But I am in agreement with the posters above- that the Marlboro/Sensitive are two extremes, and it’s more usual for men (and women) to fall within a range. Everyone has both masculine and feminine energy, depending on the situation, one kind of energy tends to dominate at a certain time- I’ve met executive types who go to martial arts classes one minute and tear up during an intense personal conversation the next. I’ve met army men who have no problem listening to a woman’s problems and sharing feelings, and speaking gently. Yes, and these are straight men I’m talking about. lol. I’ve also met (and dated) talented artistic men with the emotional brutality of a Marlboro man.
Someone used the word ‘continuum’ above, and it describes the range of human emotion and experience, for both men and women, perfectly.
But all that aside, the post-er’s boyfriend doesn’t sound ‘sensitive’ to me at this point. He sounds emotionally unstable, immature, and manipulative, and I believe she should deeply consider whether she wants a relationship with a person like this.
Cilla 15
I just heard a great analogy from Esther and Jerry Hicks for looking for a mate who has the traits you want vs. settling for only a few points of commonality: you can either go to a restaurant you love and get meals prepared the way you like them or you can go to the worst restaurant in town and try to teach them how to prepare meals that appeal to you, hoping that eventually they’ll get it right. The OP’s boyfriend sounds like the worst restaurant in town, and she’s wasting her time trying to get him to cook the way she likes.
Joe 16
Sounds to me like Katie is the Marlboro Woman. Or should that be Virginia Slim?
starthrower68 17
Just like there are some men who are the sensitive, emotional, crying types, there are women out there who like that type. My ex was very needy emotionally; I was put off by it because I ended up feeling like the man in the relationship ninety-nine percent of the time. His current wife is perfectly fine with it. It sounds two me like the op and her SO have a personality clash.
John 18
Evan, the only thing I like about trait theory is that it always comes wrapped up in a neat and tidy package. Your two archetypes “Marlborough Man” and “Sensitive Artist” sit conveniently at opposite ends of the sensitivity trait continuum along with the underlying assumption that most men fall somewhere towards the guy in the middle of the bell curve. If there is such a guy his name is Bi-polar Man.
If however, we were to interpret sensitivity as a behavioural dynamic communicated between people rather than a personality trait within a person we can then appreciate sensitivity within the context for which it really exists; namely a constant feedback dynamic–a reciprocating cycle of trust, openness and faith.
If the sensitivity feedback cycle is interpreted as non-reciprocal or not being reinforced by some or all parties to a relationship then those elements of trust, openness and faith in the value proposition that is “sensitivity” begin to break down.
This is happening for both Katie and her boyfriend. Katie needs her boyfriend to be sensitive to her needs for some emotional distance. Unfortunately, her needs are at odds with those of her boyfriend’s for Katie to be emotionally accessible. Both parties are crying out for sensitivity to their respective albeit incompatible needs and both probably labelling each other as insensitive in the process. If not addressed they will not only harm their existing relationship irreparably but also risk transferring their perceived sensitivity deficits onto the balance sheet of their future relationships.
The need to talk but more importantly, they need someone to help them to listen to each other.
J.
John´s last blog post…Self-portrait #2
starthrower68 19
John, you make some compelling points, and I would tend to agree with you except for one thing. Most people in dating situations don’t go that deep into the “psychology” of it. More often than not, we view a dating situation as temporary, so we don’t take the time to work through things with the other person. If their behavior turns us off, we bail. Sometimes the other person doesn’t even have to do anything we dislike, we just bail anyway. Again, I’m not being critical of your view, John, because I think you’re correct. But we humans can be fickle, silly, petty creatures.
starthrower68 20
John, I agree with you except for one thing: most of us aren’t willing to invest that much in someone who’s behaving in a way we find off-putting, especially when it comes to dating. We don’t get that deep into the psychology of why someone is how he/she is, nor do we take the time to work it through. Sometimes the other person doesn’t even do anything and we bail anyway. I don’t mean to criticize what you say because I believe you are correct. I’m just saying that humans can be fickle, silly, petty creatures.
Michael Ejercito 21
Evan does point out that men put up with women who are emotionally needy.
Of course one must wonder how many of those men are just cynically using those kind of women.
Steve 22
@starthrower68 post # 20
There are plenty of fish in the sea and life is short. Why would anyone want to stick with someone who is not a good fit for them?
Sayanta 23
“There are plenty of fish in the sea and life is short.”
I agree with the second part. Not the first. Sorry- feeling cynical today.
Michael Ejercito 24
Sayanta,
There are plenty of fish in the sea. And that is the problem.
They are not in a fish tank.
starthrower68 25
I’m not saying that we should stick with someone who’s not a good match for us. I was merely responding to post #18 where John made comments about what the couple in question should do to keep the existing relationship. John makes some good points and suggestions, but we don’t often do that much heavy lifting in relationship.
starthrower68 26
And yes, I stand by my comments that humans can be silly, petty, fickle, creatures.
John 27
@starthrower68 post # 20 wrote: ‘most of us aren’t willing to invest that much in someone who’s behaving in a way we find off-putting, especially when it comes to dating.”
Amen to that!! I’ve been on both sides of that coin
John´s last blog post…Self-portrait #2
David 28
Thanks for the great advice!
Woman do love the sensitive man ,but he shouldn’t be too sensitive.
Karl R 29
Steve said: (#22)
“There are plenty of fish in the sea and life is short. Why would anyone want to stick with someone who is not a good fit for them?”
There’s a difference between leaving someone who is not a good fit and leaving someone who is a good fit, but not a perfect fit. I’ve seen some acquaintances who are unwilling to invest any effort into making a good fit work, because they are pursuing an ideal of a perfect fit.
I estimate that it takes around a year (on average) of going out and dating different women for me to meet one that I can have a “good relationship” with. So if I’m in a relationship that’s good (but obviously not perfect), is it worth it for me to put in some effort to improve the relationship, or should I abandon this one and start over searching for a better relationship?
Since it takes me about a year of searching to get another “good relationship”, I’m assuming it would take me substantially longer (a decade?) to end up in a substantially better relationship. Should I put that much time and effort into searching? Maybe I can make a good relationship into a substantially better relationship if I invest an equal amount of time and effort into it.
And if I set my standards too high, I could easily spend the rest of my life searching for a perfect relationship. I’d rather spend the rest of my life in a good relationship (even if I have to put some extra time and effort into it), instead of hunting for a perfect one (that probably doesn’t exist).
Sayanta 30
“There are plenty of fish in the sea. And that is the problem.
They are not in a fish tank.”
Ahh- looks like I need a ship.
downtowngal 31
Seriously, though, this kind of guy would drive me nuts. But then again, some women like guys who are more sensitive and don’t mind being more of the stoic ‘guy’ in a relationship.
On the other hand, the things that attract us to the opposite sex are the things that drive us nuts. Men can’t stand when women rattle on & on, and women wish that men would open up more.
And because you’ve been through so much heartache you’re psyched to have found someone with whom you connect, who’s emotionally available. So you want to make this work.
You mentioned he said his behavior has cost him in previous relationships. This tells me two things: (1) he’s not going to change, and (2) he may have a serious issue preventing him from dealing w things in an emotionally mature manner. In other words, it might be more than ‘just the way he is’, he could have some type of post-traumatic separation anxiety or something.
So if you find yourself walking on eggshells because you’re afraid he’s going to cry, then you’re probably not being w someone who’s meeting YOUR emotional needs.
David 32
Woman who state men who display emtions as needy,have issues in my personal opinion.It is a good thing to share feelings as that makes the relationship strong.These females don’t want to share their feelings ,because they want to A-be in control B-afriad of what their partner might think.
If we have these emtions,why cant we share them?
I think that she doesn’t deserve a guy like him.
In a normal matured relationship,both parties have emotions and talk about it.
She is not being her true self,while he is being 100% himself.
It might get a little “too much”,but the question is why does she have to reasure him?
There must be a few things which she did or does…
The other problem is that woman don’t know what they want and they want the perfect guy in every way,but they themselves are not perfect!
This couple seem to both like each other,but need a little work.
He needs to find a way to display his emtions besides talking about it all the time.she needs to give him the opportunity to share his feeling and also share hers.
That is just one tip though ,but there are many more…
David´s last blog post…Having sex in the clubs toilet while drunk
Patricia Hogenes 33
I once dated a man who wanted to have a two-conversation on any issue he felt hurt his feelings. He claimed that I had to talk to him in a certain way and to always avoid sarcasm. He hated wit and humor in people and said that if everyone was in therapy, then he wouldn’t have to worry about his feelings all the time. He was overly sensitive and overly needy. Made me want to run for the hills, leaving that dust in the wind, if you will. So I did and I’ll never forget that morning I left.
I woke up that morning (spent the night at his house) and went to make myself a cup of tea. When I came back into the room, he said he was very upset that I did not say good morning to him when waking up (he was still sleeping) and that I thought about myself first and not him. He stressed that I should address him before I was to do anything for the day. That was it for me. I moved on. The kicker? When I told him that morning it wouldn’t work out after he gave me his little speech, he wanted to discuss every avenue as to why it wouldn’t work as well as how I made him feel about that statement. He said because he was a man of wealth (inherited) he is able to demand a woman to do as he says. Yeah right – Like I would stay. Any woman who would stay for this, either can’t make money on her own or just doesn’t know what she wants.
Erika 34
The reason why this guy’s neediness bothers you is because you are uncomfortable with your own neediness. Seeing it in others reminds us of our own flaws.
Chances are you won’t be able to accept this guy until you can accept these qualities in yourself. Best to find someone else and save yourself–and the guy–any more heartache.
Sayanta 35
Patricia (post #33)-
LOL!!! Are you serious? I just read your post in complete amazement- it seemed like something from a weirdly comical movie. An indie, maybe. The fact that men like this exist blows my mind. Where on earth did you meet him?
downtowngal 36
PH, this guy sounds arrogant and selfish. Not to mention high maintenance.
And David, you’re beeing too general. There’s a difference between opening up and having your partner be overly sensitive to every little thing.
Life can be tough and we all cry at times, but if you find you end up crying over every little thing that happens to you, maybe it’s you.
Steve 37
@David, post #32
Katie wasn’t complaining about her boyfriend sharing emotions in general.
She was complaining about him being insecure, baiting her to get a response and she was complaining about him getting inappropriately emotional over situations that don’t warrant it. Frequently.
Patricia 38
Hi Sayanta,
Believe it or not, I met him through that agency It’s Just Lunch. That agency is a whole other story in itself! We didn’t last long at all. I just couldn’t see this as a long-term relationship – too high maintenance, like ‘downtowngal’ said. She hit a bullseye with that statement! He just wanted to spend so much time together (as well as calling me 3 to 4 times a day), I didn’t look forward to seeing him. And, if I was going to see him that night, why call me so many times during the day?
Hi Erika,
Don’t know if your post was in reference to ‘my story’ but I have to disagree with what you wrote, ‘The reason why this guy’s neediness bothers you is because you are uncomfortable with your own neediness. Seeing it in others reminds us of our own flaws.’
This man’s needs were way over the top for me. When I told him that I still wanted ‘me’ time (he wanted to spend so much of our time together) he responded with, ‘I don’t need alone time. I want to be with people around the clock.’ Sorry, but I need that alone time to regroup. I just don’t have the desire to spend 24/7 with someone I just met – that wouldn’t be healthy or lead to a balanced relationship, for anyone. I do have needs, as everyone does, but not in this form. I know myself well enough to realize what I do and do not want in a partner and he did not fit the characteristics of what I’m looking for. And to be honest, I didn’t fit the picture of what he wanted either. There are women who like the ‘high maintenance’ man. I know I am not one of them. It was best he find someone who could relate to him in a way I know I never could. Better we both found out sooner than later.
Happy New Year everyone!
moonsical 39
Often with the stories submitted, I’d like to know how it works out. It’d be interesting if Katie checked in and let the blog know.
moon
Miami Dating Coach 40
Excellent stuff!!
downtowngal 41
Hey Patricia,
I wonder – if you were really into this guy, woud you have minded as much if he called you so frequently? I ask because I’ve seen this topic discussed on this and other boards about how often guys should call.
In my experience, if a guy is into you he’ll call often, and can come on strong at the beginning. When we first started dating, one of my ex’s called me frequently throughout the day, it was overwhelming and smothering. But I was into him and loved hearing from him. I also set some boundaries, which he respected, and he didn’t get all wigged out if I didn’t reply to him soon, if at all, he just wanted to express how much he wanted me in his life.
Getting off topic here, and I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, as it sounds as if there were other issues with this guy you dated. You seem to have a good sense of yourself, which this other guy didn’t.
Patricia 42
Hey Dating Coach from Miami,
This is excellent material isn’t it? As a woman who has utilized on-line dating sites, a match-matching agency, the personal ads (they’re fossil-like now, I know) and the occasional fix-up from family members and friends, it’s amazing not only the men I’ve met and dated, but the other single women who were more than happy to relate to me their comical dating disaster stories, especially once learning I was a writer and researching material for a future project.
The odd men they encountered when out in the field gave me enough to go on and complete the final step to complete my second book, Single Women and Dating: Laughter and Humor Linked to Surviving the Process. Selecting the worst of the worst dating disaster stories was the key so other single women could realize they may not have it that bad. I included some of the tale I wrote about in this blog in another section of the book. Yet, for my dating disaster story, I used another one titled, Mr. Not So Clean. Ugh, what a guy!
The point here is I did have a participant from Florida with a very similar dating experience as I had with the man I wrote about on this blog so I used her story in the book instead titled, Mr. I Want to Spend ALL my Free Time With You. Let me tell you, it was a dandy and much worse than the man I described on this blog! Regardless of her experience with this particular male, however, she’s still going strong in the dating world and diligently looking for The One kudos to her these are the kind of participants I deliberately polled and interviewed those who learned a lesson and are not giving up on the dating process.
Anyways, though I can’t reveal her real name due to confidentiality issues in our contract, she did allow me to share that she had used a dating coach in Florida. It could have been you. If so, she loved your work! Keep it up!
All the best,
Patricia
Patricia 43
Hey downtowngal,
Good question! I have to say no. Being into a guy I’m dating and having him call so many times a day is still too much for me, especially if I’m going to see him that night. Remember, this guy had more time on his hands than I did. I don’t like to take so many breaks when I’m working (I’m a writer) and that’s when he would call. This is especially true when I’m starting on a new project and conducting research and interviews with people. Though my phones were off during the time, he left messages and wanted call backs just not my cup of tea.
I like the method you chose in speaking to your ex and setting the boundaries when you were first dating. I agree with you that it’s very important to do this in the beginning of a relationship so it doesn’t get out of hand. It helps even more when they listen!
All the best,
Patricia
downtowngal 44
Hey Patricia,
Thanks for your response. So you’re saying that ‘no’ you would NOT have minded his frequent calling if you were into him?
I only ask because I’ve often had this conversation with guys – and have seen this topic posted – on whether women get turned off by frequent calling. Some guys think this will make a bad impression so they hold off on calling, which turns into a game and turning off women.
I think we all have our tolerance levels, and you’re right, it’s all a matter of communicating. I find that a guy who’s into a woman will want to contact her frequenty. But if the guy respects your boundaries he’ll be cool. If not, then see-ya!
And good luck w your book – believe me, I can provide you with a ton of material
David 45
Woman don’t find it very attractive if a man is too needy and insecure.Insecurity is never a good thing,but there is a logical explanation as to why he is insecure.
This could be due to the fact that she cant be trusted or maybe he as been hurt in the past is now trying to protect himself by being emotionally aware of the current relatonship status.
Men like this usually need to confirm every emotion in order to be at peace.The actual cure if for them to tust their woman and to let go,because if she really wants to be with you,she will.
The woman should be honest with the man and if she really wants t be with him,she should show him.Thus making it easier for him to trust her,which will also result in faster results.
David´s last blog post…Having sex in the clubs toilet while drunk
Patricia 46
Hey downtowngal,
I apologize for not being clear enough in the post. My correct answer is I would mind if he called me so many times, even if I was into him. For me, there needs to be room to breathe and the opportunity to look forward to seeing him again. Not all women will feel this way as it’s always a personal preference as to what one favors.
Wish I had spoken with you before my book came out last week! Sounds like you have some very interesting material to offer. I will definitely keep you in mind for the next one!
Thanks for the luck! The book is already doing very well for just being on the market such a short time. This book came to fruition after speaking with so many women who’ve had one bad date after another, including myself, so I contributed one of my own stories. I wanted to do my part on keeping the humor and inspiration alive when one is in the dating process this worked well when I polled and interviewed dating disasters from others around the U.S. who were more than willing to share. How could I have missed you???? I deliberately chose the worst of the worst stories and, in turn, produced, Single Women and Dating: Laughter and Humor Linked to Surviving the Process. If you decide to purchase it, I would love to have your feedback. You can see some comments from other buyers who posted on my blog through my website http://www.patriciahogenes.com, if you’re interested.
All the best,
Patricia
Kevin 47
Sometimes you can’t have everything. No one is perfect and if you want a husband or good father then that is what matters.
Ana-Dating 48
Katie,
Try to talk to him tell him that you appreciate everything that he does for you but remind him as well that he doesn’t own your world and that you still need freedom to do your own thing and you’re giving him the equal right also, for him to understand you better. Relationship is a give and take after all. Maybe he just loves you and he just doesn’t know that he is loving you way too much.
Selena 49
Crying 4 times in a relationship of only 2 mos.? Good grief!
That’s supposed to be the fun, infatuation, getting to know each other, honeymoon period. Seems like you and he skipped right over this magical part of relationship Katie.
All that crying over you not being as emotionally available to him as he wants in the very beginning of a relationship IS a red flag. It IS passive-aggressive, and it IS manipulative. You’re trying to get to know him and see if the two of you fit–he’s desperate to make you into “instant life partner”. No, he’s not going to get any better with heartfelt conversations. He’s showing you exactly who he is right from the get-go. Look at it as a blessing. It is saving you wasted time.
He may be a nice guy, but he is a bad match.
Selena 50
Another thing,
I’ve always fallen for someone within 10 weeks of dating. Or not. And the men in question with (or not) me also. How about you?
Could it be that you haven’t fallen for this guy, you know it, he feels it, but you keep this going hoping you WILL fall for him because he’s a “nice guy”? After relationships with some not so nice guys, I can see why you might not want to give up quickly. Yet, your sensitivity to HIS sensitivity might just be a reaction to what you know is true, but don’t want to come right out and say…you just don’t feel it for him. And he knows it, but doesn’t want it to be so. Hence, the crying, neediness, etc.
Possible?
Katie 51
UPDATE:
So for all of you who are curious as to what is now going on between me and this guy, we ended our relationship about a month ago. We actually ended it before I got a response from Evan. I have to admit that I am much less stressed now and realize that we just weren’t meant for each other. I wanted it to work so badly because I’ve dated quite a lot of assholes, and I had finally met a nice guy. Our needs were just too different. I’m the first to admit that I am not perfect, and I know no one is. I just couldn’t deal with his emotions and super sensitivity. He was stressing me out way too much. I knew that this wasn’t something that he was going to be able to change. I couldn’t give him what he needed, and he couldn’t give me what I needed.
For those who were curious at to what he was crying about….the first time he cried was after maybe a month of us knowing each other. He started crying when he was trying to explain his last relationship and how it didn’t work because she couldn’t give him what he needed. I told him that it sounded like he wasn’t completely over his ex and he got very emotional. The second was the very next day when he called to apologize for all the drama. The next time was after he met my friends for the first time. After they left, he got really paranoid that for some reason they didn’t like him. He did nothing for my friends not to like him. I explained to him that he did fine meeting them and that they liked him. I told him to have more confidence and not worry about what everyone else thinks. When trying to explain why he was that way he cried. He was always wanting to talk about his feelings and every emotion he felt and why he felt it. It just got so draining. Most of the time he was confused to how he felt so he’d say one thing and then turn around and say something opposite. Then the next day he’d say something totally different. He said that he was trying to figure his own feelings out and the way he does that is to talk to someone. I just couldn’t handle all the back and forth of his feelings all the time.
After spending 3 days in a row with each other, he would tell me he missed me the next day and get upset if I didn’t miss him. He would text me, at the very least, 30 times a day and, most of the time, over 100 times a day (That is not an exaggeration. I actually counted one day). I told him that I did really like him but that he was overwhelming me, and I needed some space. After that, things progressively got worse. Every 2 weeks, I’d get text from him saying that maybe we weren’t right for each other because I wasn’t as in to him as he was into me. I tried explaining that I did really like him but I’m just the type of person who needs space and can go a day without speaking to him. He never gave me time to miss him. I kept reassuring him that I did like him and I just needed more time before I could completely open up my emotions to him like he was to me. After all, we only knew each other for 3 months. After 3 times in one month of him saying maybe we shouldn’t be together, I gave up and agreed and said that we should end it. Of course, he took it back and said he didn’t want to. I told him that I did though. Every time he’d say he didn’t think we should date, I’m almost positive it was because he wanted to see what my reaction would be.
Patricia, I’m wondering if we dated the same guy! This guy wanted to discuss in detail why things didn’t work too. He also wanted me to tell him what he could do to change so that he could be a better person. I told him never to change himself for anyone and just be happy and confident for who he is.
downtowngal 52
Katie, thanks for the update. Sounds like you made the right decision for yourself!
Emily 53
Hey Evan,
I agree with a lot of the respondents here–although you make some good points, men fall in more categories than these two extremes in my experience. This guy sounds to me like he may have some emotional issues and that he could benefit from psychotherapy.
Selena 54
Yes, thanks for the update – we get curious here about how things turn out.
30 to 100 texts a day? You must be a very patient person Katie – I could never deal with that.
Has this guy ever tried therapy? Sounds like he might benefit from some.
Shalini 55
well i guess this guy really needs therapy!! He has soem serious issues.. and i can really relate to you. I have friend who does the same! Sending 20 messages in a day and telling me every minute detail of her life when she calls. It can be pretty stressful!
Katie 56
Selena,
In the first 3 weeks I had fallen for him. Things were going great and I really liked him. I think I overlooked his constant need for attention because I liked him so much. After a while, the constant need for attention just got to me, and I couldn’t overlook it anymore. It’s all I saw, and I got turned off. He flat out told me that he needs to be with someone all the time, and he hates being alone. He said his entire life he’s yearned to be with someone who needed him and couldn’t live without him. I don’t know about you, but I need my alone time. I don’t think I “need” anyone. I’m perfectly happy being single and can take care of myself. It’s nice to have someone to share my life with, but I don’t need to be with them 24/7. Maybe I just never met anyone who has made me feel that way…i dunno. I would think it would take time to feel that way about someone, but I haven’t had much success finding the right men so I could be wrong.
Selena 57
Katie,
I have a good friend who got involved once with someone much like you described this man. He was extremely handsome, and very attentive. After only 3 weeks, she mused that he might be “the one”– she didn’t see any red flags.
*I* saw one big red tent. He had to spend all his time with her. He basically moved in with her shortly after they met. From what she told me he wanted her total attention all the time. She could hardly ever be alone. If she tried to even read a book in his presense, he got whiny because he wasn’t getting her attention. He told a neighbor in their apt. complex that her daughter (a toddler) was his. He talked of their (would be) marriage, after only a few weeks of dating. She also told me he cried several times when he got the idea that she didn’t care about him as much as he cared about her. Despite reassurance on her part.
All this within less than 3 months of dating.
My friend, who initially thought he was Mr. Wonderful couldn’t take it. As she put it, “He’s always up my butt. ” “If you looked up needy in the dictonary you would see his picture.” She told him she couldn’t take it anymore and broke it off.
Most people DO need some amount of alone time. I know I do. I know my friend who had two young children needed what little she could get back then. (Even if it was reading a novel in the same room with an adult for an hour.) Anyone who doesn’t understand that, who feels a need, “compelled” to be with another person AT ALL TIMES, has a psychological issue they need to address.
I don’t think there is any more kind of “understanding” you could do with the guy you dated. He just didn’t get it, and it seems that his previous girlfriends had tried to get him to see it as well–to no avail.
You, like most of us, are looking, hoping, to find balance in our lives. NEEDING to spend 24/7 with someone is not balance.
Don’t beat yourself up.
Selena
Katie 58
Sorry it took so long for the update! I work all week long on a computer and rarely get online after work. Anyways, he actually was in therapy trying to deal with his issues. I wanted to give him a chance because the majority of people have issues and he had a good heart. I now know that these things are red flags for sure!
Patricia 59
Hi Katie,
Yes, it sounds as if these two are cut from the same mold. Better to be out than deal with it – it’s just so over the top. Yet, for women who like this kind of man – kudos to you!
All the best,
Patricia
David Stone 60
Neediness and insecurity is not good and should be in any relationship.This is something many couples deal with and is often hard for them to fix.
The guys needs to let and remember one thing!
His woman is with him and if she wanted to be with someone she would have.
She might not like a lot of woman displays her emotions verbally ,but definitely in body language or any other way,the key is to look for the nonverbal clues.
Use her tactics ,she does not like to speak ,so therefore you should not speak about your emotions either.Make her wonder what has changed and then she will ask you.
When she do ask,try to keep your emotions to minimum,but sooner or later she will start to open up more and respect you ,because you consider her emotions and feelings and not just your own.
When the woman feels that you care more about your feelings than hers ,she will return the favor and start to attend to your needs.Obviously with time and some effort this situation can be resolved.
Paul 61
Insecure neediness and sensitivity are not the same thing. If something makes me very sad, or very happy, I cry. If my girlfriend looks at me “with the wrong tone of voice” – I would be insecure, not sensitive, if I tried to manipulate her into looking at me “in the right tone of voice.” A man can do what a mans got to do – John Wayne style – and still have tears streaming down his face at the same time.
Denise 62
Although I agree with Evan 99% of the of time, and do here in regard to the two types of men, I do NOT agree with emotional or physical neediness. Men don’t like it in women and women especially don’t like it in men. Women look to men to take care of things and make us feel safe, if he’s so emotionally needy, how is he going to take are of what he needs to take care of?
This situation doesn’t sound like a Marlboro vs. Sensitive man, this sounds like a man who has other issues. There is a definite difference…all the best to hin in working on this, I give him a lot of credit for understanding there’s a problem and taking action to solve it!
Diana 63
I wonder if the guy in Katie’s letter dealt with abandonment in some way during his childhood. Reading her comments made me feel very sympathetic to him and I hope he finds the right avenue that will help him heal from his pain and fear.
Daniella 64
I just broke up with a sensitive artist guy. He wanted to talk about every single issue in our relationship, and it was kind of frustrating because i used to let things go by. I was his angel, his treasure, everything, we used to share every little moment so we could get to know ourselves better. So i recomend you to understand him, cos at least youll have someone everytime you need it. He worth it. Believe! Dont make a mistake!
Bobby 65
Your mistaking emotionally damaged for emotionally available, and you’ve most likely been doing this for a long time.
Hmmmmmm 66
Hello:
My first reaction to the advice she was given sounded like, “Suck it up and appreciate him.” I disagree.
From reading the first email and responses it seems like being needy (which is not a virtue) is being mixed up with being sensitive (which can be). It’s great if a guy is sensitive with the clause that he isn’t just sensitive to himself but to you and others as well. Otherwise he becomes SELFISH. SELF – FOCUSED and all about him. I have dated needy men and they are exhausting and do not replenish the relationship with wonderful emotions and sharing but deplete it by being a drama kings, self focused, needing constant reassurance, hand holding and I often felt like a therapist or his mother and not a partner. Again, another woman may love this and love the roller coaster ride of it all.
If a guy is needy he needs help – I think. People who are needy tend to suck the life out of others to fill themselves up. If the woman in the email feels like she’s been sucked dry – that is a huge red flag. If on the other hand she is upset because he’s not acting in certain prescribed manly ways that is another. And perhaps she can embrace his version of manhood.
All relationships need healthy boundaries not enmeshment. So let’s say her bf is really chatty and emotional after a days work. She can anticipate his need to talk and express then. Perhaps giving him half hour or whatever she feels is reasonable for her to listen to him. And then after that time she can do what she needs to take a break, rest, read, take a walk etc. However, if he needs to keep the relationship in a constant state of him being emotional and throwing up his sentiments all over her constantly that is not healthy.
If she tries to set some boundaries like “Hey, the first hour home is all about you, then I need to go work out.” And he’s all insecure and is threatened by her taking time for herself or setting of boundaries – that’s his problem and he is making it hers and driving her away. He’s already said it has ruined some other relationships. Perhaps he needs a therapist. He may need to learn some self-control. If he is using her as a therapist or mother, then my vote is, he isn’t treating her like gold.
Both things could also be going on. He treats her like gold but is also insatiable. Again boundaries for both parties can be helpful. Both the needs to be chatty, emotional, can be balanced with quietness or activity that nourishes both people.
Paragon 67
That’s the spirit – fall off the carousel, get right back on, lol.
M 68
When did needy become a bad trait? Why would I want to be in a relationship if I don’t need the other person to enhance my life?
Maybe millions of relationships are at least in part the colossal mess they are because both parties couldn’t care less whether the other is out for the evening or not coming back for five years. Because heaven forbid anybody needs anybody.
Karl R 69
M asked: (#68)
“When did needy become a bad trait?”
About the time psychologists recognized how destructive co-dependent relationships were.
M asked: (#68)
“Why would I want to be in a relationship if I don’t need the other person to enhance my life?”
I can’t answer that question for you.
However, I don’t need my fiancée in my life. She doesn’t need me in her life. Both of us have decades of practice living happy, healthy and productive lives as single adults.
We want each other. It’s nice to be wanted. It’s exhausting to be needed.
M said: (#68)
“both parties couldn’t care less whether the other is out for the evening or not coming back for five years.”
If my fiancée is out for the night, I’ll enjoy having an evening to myself. If she’s gone for a week, I’ll miss her, but it’s no big deal. If she died, I would acutely feel the loss, but I would survive, recover, eventually move on and live a happy, healthy, productive life.
And it’s reassuring to know that my fiancée will be fine without me too.
M 70
Co-dependent relationships are destructive? Huh? You mean a married couple isn’t co-dependent? Sorry my feeble mind can’t process that.
So people want to be wanted but not needed? Pray tell what on earth is the difference. Talk about splitting hairs.
Nobody really NEEDS anybody I guess. I’m 51, out of my mind with loneliness but still alive and reasonably healthy, at least physically. My parents are gone, I miss them like mad and you know what? I am not “fine” without them and I never will be. My life is immeasurably worse without them and their no longer being around will always cause me significant sadness throughout my remaining time on this miserable planet. If nobody else feels likewise, so what. I didn’t ask to get put on this earth, that’s the way I feel and my opinion is as valid as anyone else’s even if they have 20 doctoral degrees.
Karl R 71
M said: (#70)
“I’m 51, out of my mind with loneliness”
“My parents are gone, I miss them like mad and you know what? I am not ‘fine’ without them and I never will be.”
Are you expecting a girlfriend to fill the void left by your parents?
It sounds like you need to see a grief support group to cope with the loss of your parents. Girlfriends don’t fill that role.
M said: (#70)
“I’m 51, out of my mind with loneliness”
“My life is immeasurably worse without them and their no longer being around will always cause me significant sadness throughout my remaining time on this miserable planet.”
If you knew that spending time with someone would make you feel (more) depressed, would you go out of your way to spend time with that person?
People like feeling good. People don’t like feeling bad. If this is the way you normally sound, being around you is probably very depressing. If that’s the case, people are going to avoid you.
If I want someone to spend more time with me, I either try to ensure that they enjoy themselves in my presence, or I try to make them feel good about themselves (which is even more effective).
M 72
Karl I appreciate your words, you seem like a thoughtful guy.
I have reasonably good looks, maybe 6-7 out of 10. I am pained by the thought that if I were female – and I wish I was – and I had my EXACT SAME PERSONALITY that I would get plenty of attention. I am sure that plenty of highly depressed females get lots of attention.
Thanks Evan for your website and your efforts to help people.
Karl R 73
M said: (#72)
“I am sure that plenty of highly depressed females get lots of attention.”
I casually dated a woman who suffered from moterate to severe depression. (We weren’t exclusive and we weren’t physcially intimate, but we dated long enough to get to know each other reasonably well.)
I ended up breaking things off because she wasn’t much fun to be around.
I suppose a highly depressed female could get lots of attention in the form of casual sex, but I strongly suspect that would make the depression worse.
M said: (#72)
“I am pained by the thought that if I were female – and I wish I was – and I had my EXACT SAME PERSONALITY that I would get plenty of attention.”
Unless you are planning to get a sex change, then that statement is completely irrelevant.
If I was filthy rich, I would get more attention from women. If I was drop-dead gorgeous, I would get more attention from women.
So what?
Those observations didn’t help me get a date, regardless of how true they were.
The only things that will help you get dates are the things you can change. For example, you can find ways to manage your depression. (It might require professional help or medication, but those won’t happen unless you take some initiative.)
Complaining about the unfairness of it all … that’s just a waste of time and energy.
Mori 74
It is true.Men are different and we can´t have it all from them.But you have to remember, that if you are a very intellectual,ambitious and hardworking woman who likes to be alone, you are probably going to attract the artist.Because he wants to be the feminine part of the relationship.
I had this problem though I grew up with a mother who was a doer and a thinker and not emotionally avaliable.But I am a real artist myself.So my sort of ideal from the childhood was a feminine part who always did and thought everything in pieces.It was terrible to me.She was like a man in womans clothes and I could never get a clear picture,because how she looked and the feeling I got about her was opposites.My father,on the other hand,looked like a Marlboro man in everything and he did not talk much even,but he was this sensitive jerk who never got his heck out to act,and he did not think enough either, to take good decisions about things.
I have been struggling with this sensitive artists my whole life.And it never worked!When i was at my twenties, they always fell in love with me.I tried and I tried, and in the end they always dissappeared of course.I was a mess.And I never ever understood what was going on.But the universe kept sending me these guys over and over.I remember me thinking that I would be better with for example an ingenieur who also like to build houses,who are stable,wealthy and very intelligent.A man who thinks before he talks,sees me over a longer perspective and sort of let me be an emotional artist and admire it,but that is all.Who buy me oil colours and read my stories with respect and give me music concert for birthday present.That guy never showed up.The one crazier man after the other showed upp.And I still did not get it.I am near 40 now and my relationship history is tragical.BUT, the last artistic guy who showed up was the last one.I just know it.There will be no more guys like that in my life.Not that they are wrong,I just dont need them.They make me feel like my mother.They make me a bitter,thinking and wierdacting man-woman who ends up in a mess.They are great, I even had a gayfriend one once.But I need a man.I surely do.I need to be the woman,the listener,the emotional half,the artistic sence and the soft one.
I think everybody should stop searching for certain qualities or caracteristics or so, and ask themselfes;How do I BECOME in this relationship.And is that what I truly want to be?Because sometimes we grew up with a mother or somebody else showing us a was that was completely wrong for us, and therefore we continue to choose partners who bring those qualities up,but If we dare saying no to it and burn out the weeds in our head that make us a person we did not want to be, I am sure he will show up.The man who makes us the woman or man we truly are inside
Mario 75
I think you nailed it right on the head here. I have a question for you. You wrote: “Charmers will exploit their skills with women.” Well, I am a charmer. Whenever I’ve been in a durable relationship, the first few months/years have been great, but then I start feeling like I am giving up. I love flirting and I love getting attractive women’s attention. But of course that is incompatible with what nearly every woman wants from a partner in a long-term relationship or marriage. Does this mean I am doomed? Does it mean that I will always get bored in a long-term relationship or marriage? Is this a biological imperative that is impossible to tame? I know you mostly give advice to women, but I would appreciate if you help me here. Thanks.
Laura 76
@Karl R Thank You for your sensible common … In our very individualistic society of overabundance people are so used to get what they want quickly and instantly that they get frustated at the 1 sight of a little nick on what sounded so perfect …Maybe if both men and women would give each other a little more credit and put a little more effort relationship will be easier .
Reach out and communicate and do not rule out people and put them in caterogy just because they act a certain way you did not like a few times most people will not deliberately try to annoy you, hurt you , or whatever in general most people want to please other because most people want to be loved !
Ruby 77
Mario #75
I think you have to realize that long-term relationships are supposed to move past fun and flirtation. Gradually, a couple begins to bond on a deeper level. Have you thought about what you want beyond the surface fun? What are the fears that hold you back? If you’re feeling bored in your relationship, rather than blaming your partner, maybe it’s your own life that isn’t energizing or exciting you enough.
Rahma 78
I am an independent professional and really would prefer to meet a guy who falls in between. My last guy would tell me everything which I at first appreciated. When he started to tell me all his finacial woes, really complain about his bills, his family expectations and even send me text messages when I was traveling aborad about his financial challenges, and how he was trying to cope I was like. does he expect me to bail him out? It continued for a while and because I had the resources, I bailed him out and then broke the relationship shortly afterwards because I was worried it might continue. Maybe I should have spoken to him about it, but to be honest, we had just known each other for 4 months and there was not any mention of going on to become exclusive. While I want to be supportive, I dont want feel like anyone was trying to sponge off me as I wouldnt do that to men (or women) either.
This is the second time this is happening as a few years ago, I had this guy asking me for loans. Must be something I am doing wrong to attract these guys huh? While I do make decent income, I do not live an extravagant lifestyle..
Michael 79
I think when women say they want ‘a sensitive man’ they one that will be soft and sensitive to their needs but be strong and stoic about their own. Women want the option to be masculine or feminine as their needs or situation dictates and have a man modify his behavior to those needs but never deviate from being the man.
ocroz 80
I’m wondering if he will be less needy if he feels more secure in the relationship. Is it his personality all the time or is it a symptom to a problem? If you show him more of a commitment and give him that sense of security, will he need to ‘talk’ about it so much? I think its worth a try
good luck
Lynn 81
I agree with Cilla and Margaret, posts 8 and 9. I have dated men who fall between the two extremes and they are my preference, but harder to find. I couldn’t stomach someone who has cried 4 times during such a short period of time. Maybe I’m too picky, but that’s me. Women are different too, so maybe you can tolerate this.
Ted 82
But just because someone is competent at social media doesn’t make them a competent matchmaker. This is one of the events that regardless of the size and scale are the obstacles, destiny, it is likely that two people find each other alone Asian men in Asia. Asia, in the last decade, has become a region of the world where consumerism is now becoming more important than traditional values.