(Stereotype Alert!) Are Men and Women Different? It Sure Looks That Way.

are-men-and-women-different-it-sure-looks-that-way

Not every blog post has to explore the deep existential crisis of wanting to find lasting love in a lonely, indifferent universe. Sometimes, it just feels good to laugh. 

I saw this cartoon on Facebook and that’s what it did for me, stereotypes and all.

Maybe my wife and I are a walking cliche, but all the stuff about her taking more time to get dressed, making copious lists before packing, having a cluttered desktop, and being perpetually late TOTALLY applies to our relationship.

If you’re going to read this and claim it’s sexist because your boyfriend is always late, or is the one who hordes clothes, save it.

We know. Not all men and women are alike

So if you’re going to read this and claim it’s sexist because your boyfriend is always late, or is the one who hordes clothes, save it.

We know. Not all men and women are alike.

But stereotypes exist for a reason. Anyone with two eyes, two ears and a modicum of life experience knows that we are both biologically and sociologically different.

I find those differences to be endlessly fascinating and worthy of discussion – just not in the comments section of a lighthearted cartoon. 🙂

Join 10 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (130 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    KK

    Too funny! The mirror cartoon is true. Lol! Most women are so hard on themselves and most men are… well… not. 😂

    1. 1.1
      Yet Another Guy

      Men are generous with respect to body image until it comes to height, and then they are as insecure as women.  The reason is the same; namely, Hollywood and the media bombarding us with images of the ideal man and woman.  It used to be common to cast a 5’5″ to 5’8″ man in a major male role.  Dustin Hoffman is 5’6″ and so is Henry Winkler.  Today, 5’11” is the shortest height a man other Tom Cruise can claim to be if he wants a leading role.  A lot of actors claim to be 5’11” who are actually shorter than 5’11”, but know that they cannot get away with claiming to be 6’0″ (that irritates guys like me who are over 6’0″ when we wake up, but around 5’11.5″ after spinal compression kicks in during the day).  Brad Pitt claims to be 5’11”, but he is actually barely 5’10” (more like 5’9″ and change).   He always wears a shoe with a sizeable heel to appear taller (Cuban heels appear to be his favorite); however, his body proportions give him away.   His build is too slight for a 5’11” man.  I have seen Brad Pitt in the flesh, and he is much smaller than me.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        His build is too slight for a 5’11” man.  I have seen Brad Pitt in the flesh, and he is much smaller than me.

        Most movie/tv stars look much smaller in person. The screen makes people look heavier and bigger in stature. I have read that Johnny Depp is also a slight man. But keep in mind, both men are very handsome. Even if neither man was famous, I don’t think most women would kick them out of bed for only being average height.

        1. Stacy

           
          Although my man is 5’8” and I rarely see women complain if a man is at least 5’9”…most women would probably, if they have FREE range of choice, pick men that are over 6 feet. Most men would probably, if they have FREE range of choice, pick a woman that is between slim to ‘thick’ (by ‘thick’, I mean smaller waist and curvy) but certainly not fat or obese.
           
          HOWEVER, falling in love is so much more complex than just that. There is charm factor and chemistry, and degree of handsomeness and social status and the way a person dresses, etc…and many of us fall for so many other factors than what is just seen in the first place. So while I believe there is a desired standard, most of us are mature enough to realize that we have to be flexible in this regard and just as happy with our choices. Brad Pitt would probably be just as ‘hot’ to a lot of women if he was just 5’8” with his looks and ‘swag’. Some men/people just have that je ne sais quois about them.
           

        2. Emily, the original

          Stacy,

          Most women would probably, if they have FREE range of choice, pick men that are over 6 feet.

          Yes, I agree, although for some reason I have never cared about height. I would much rather date a handsome short man than a taller man who wasn’t as attractive.

          Brad Pitt would probably be just as ‘hot’ to a lot of women if he was just 5’8” with his looks and ‘swag’. Some men/people just have that je ne sais quois about them.

          That’s the point I was trying to make about several guys I know thinking they are ladies’ men. There are very few people of either gender who have that je ne sais quios.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy

          I rarely see women complain if a man is at least 5’9”

          Herein lies the disconnect.  A man who is 5’9″ is not exactly a concession.  A 5’9″ man is taller than 50% of the male population.  In my humble opinion, the 6’0″ threshold is little more than a self-inflicted mindfuck that does little more than keep women on dating sites single.  I am absolutely certain that most women could not distinguish between a 5’10” man and a 6’0″ man if viewed separately with no references in the background to use to gauge height, especially if the 5’10” man had a larger, more muscular/athletic build.  I routinely have women tell me that I have to be taller than 6’0″, but my height is only 6’0″ for short period of time on the morning before gravity takes over and compresses the discs in my spine.

          In my humble opinion, height is little more than female psychological trigger for strength, which satisfies the primal need for safety and security.  It serves the same purpose for women that woman’s cup size and hip-to-waist ratio serve for a man.  At my peak in my bodybuilding days (late twenties), I would make guys who were 6’2″ and 6’3″ look diminutive.  Yet, I was just under 6’0″. I have an old friend who is 6’3″ with a medium build.  He loved to club with me during that point time because women would turn and look and the men would get out of our way when we walked into a room.

          The female brain is wired to key on physical prowess.  From my personal experience, it becomes easier for a woman to override this primitive wiring as she gains experience with men (i.e., baggage), but she will always notice a man who is physically large in an athletic way for his height.  Non-athletically-built men generally do not mess with athletically-built men, and by extension, women who are with athletically-built men.   That is why 5’7″ men who are gym rats do so well with women even though they are shorter than average, that is, as long as they do not become narcissistic in the process.

           

        4. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          The female brain is wired to key on physical prowess. 

          For every woman who loves Channing Tatum, there’s another who loves the skinny but rebellious, edgy, punk rocker type. An element of danger is hard wired for some women, too.

      2. 1.1.2
        Emily, the original

        KK,

        Most women are so hard on themselves and most men are… well… not.

        Yes.

    2. 1.2
      mgm531

      Why should men be hard on themselves when women do the job for them?

      1. 1.2.1
        Emily, the original

        mgm531,

        I know several men who seem to think they are ladies’ men. And while there is nothing inherently wrong with any of these guys, they are hardly men who are naturally good with women and drawing them in. Flip the situation. How many women do you know who are really good with the opposite sex and have swarms of men around them? (And this isn’t just about being good looking.)

        1. mgm531

          I don’t really know and I don’t really care.  What I do care about is people gender bashing based on stereotypes.  Be it from men bashing women or women bashing men.  It’s not fair nor is entirely accurate.  So when I see it I call it out.

        2. Buck25

          Honestly? Damn few, in my experience. You did ask.

        3. KK

          mgm531,

          The post is about the differences between men and women. They’re funny because they’re true (for the most part). It’s unfortunate that some people get butt hurt instead of being able to laugh about those differences. There’s a big difference between pointing out those inherent differences and therefore, being able to laugh about them vs making hateful or harmful comments ie gender bashing, as you stated.

        4. Bob

          Women don’t have to approach, ask someone out, impress, charm, prove themselves, pass tests, all while being appraised by a scrutinous woman or, better, by her and her friend. Or her friends.

          Men have to do all that.

          So men have to be self assured. Women don’t. After all, when you’ve been approached or are being pursued, it’s obvious you’re desirable.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Bob

          Oh, the infamous friend test. Guys do not ask their friends if a woman is hot enough to date. After all, most men have gone ugly early a time or two; therefore, a man knows not to go there when another man asks. On the other hand, I have never dated a woman who did not seek the approval of her BFF or girlfriends.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          *Oh, the infamous girlfriend test!

      2. 1.2.2
        Emily, the original

        mgm531,

        There is a fine line between self-delusion and self-confidence.

        1. mgm531

          As there is a fine line between critique and hypocrisy.  Where it is perfectly acceptable to make negative comments about men based on stereotypes but heresy for any one to make negative comments about women based on stereotypes.

      3. 1.2.3
        Buck25

        Short answer, for themselves. Be the best man you can be; you’ll be happier  (and a lot healthier) that way. What women think of that, is irrelevant…unless you need them to validate you, in which case, you’ll never do well with women anyway.

      4. 1.2.4
        Yet Another Guy

        *Oh, the infamous girlfriend test!

  2. 2
    Bob

    Women don’t have to approach, ask someone out, impress, charm, prove themselves, pass tests, all while being appraised by a scrutinous woman or, better, by her and her friend. Or her friends.

    Men have to do all that.

    So men have to be self assured. Women don’t. After all, when you’ve been approached or are being pursued, it’s obvious you’re desirable.

    1. 2.1
      Emily, the original

      Bob,

      Women don’t have to approach, ask someone out, impress, charm, prove themselves …  Men have to do all that. After all, when you’ve been approached or are being pursued, it’s obvious you’re desirable.

      Yes, that’s all true, but do you always ask out the women you are most interested in? Do you always pursue and ask out women who are you first choice? I ask because, while I do assume a man has some interest in me if he asks me out, I never know to what extent. He may have asked out 10 women and I was the one who said yes. Or he may be dating several women to determine who he likes best. An initial show of interest by asking someone out is just that … an initial show.

      1. 2.1.1
        BOB

        Do you read Evan’s advice at all?

        Do you read anyone’s advice at all?

        Just make him wait for sex.

        That’ll vet ‘im.

        1. Emily, the original

          Your reply has nothing to do with what I wrote and what you originally posted about men having to do all the work, but … ok.

      2. 2.1.2
        MilkyMae

        I’ve seen this happen so many times.  I’ve done it myself. I man makes a normal gesture of attraction and women dismiss it as an aberration.  He wants go a date with me so there must be something wrong.  He’s a player, he wants my body, I don’t know if he is right for me, he hits on everyone, he seems a little gay, he thinks plus sized women are easy…. Impostor syndrome will wreck you dating life more than anything.

      3. 2.1.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        I believe that most men learn to adopt a play it safe approach to dating.  That is why the women who get asked out the most are those who are ranked cosmetically directly below the women who everyone agrees are beautiful.  It is almost like a woman should be attractive, but not beautiful because men want to limit the possibility of rejection.  That being said, there are times when a man will date a woman who he considers to be too plain to be his girlfriend because he believes that she will be an easy sexual conquest.  As Bob mentioned, the easiest way to determine if a man truly finds you to be attractive is to make him wait for sex.   If a man  believes that he is dating down in the looks department, he will break pursuit.

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          That being said, there are times when a man will date a woman who he considers to be too plain to be his girlfriend because he believes that she will be an easy sexual conquest.

          Yes, you mentioned this before. But please be aware: women do the same thing. Just because a woman goes to bed with you doesn’t mean she’s ga ga into you. It could mean that or it could be for a million other possible reasons.

        2. KK

          YAG,

          Didn’t you say you tried dating all the Barbie doll types at the gym but you didn’t think they were kind enough, so you married a plain Jane type and then soon realized there was no physical attraction, which ultimately led to the downfall of your marriage?

          Just curious because of what you stated here:  “That being said, there are times when a man will date a woman who he considers to be too plain to be his girlfriend because he believes that she will be an easy sexual conquest”.

          Or in your case, you know she’d be willing to marry you…

    2. 2.2
      SparklingEmerald

      “. . .it’s obvious you’re desirable.”

      As Emily tried to explain, but the point was obviously lost to you, not neccessarily.

      There are thousands of men’s websites out there teaching men to regard women as the enemy and good for nothing but sex.  Most women want a RELATIONSHIP, and that is the crux of Evan’s advice, to wait, to see if the man want THE WOMAN, or just sex.

      Men are routinely taught to “date down” “slum it” or to “lower their standards” in order to get laid.  Even “hate f—ing” is a thing now.

      So no, if a woman has been asked out by a man, he could find her desirable, he could find her “meh”, or he could regard her as a piece of garbage good for nothing but a “hate f—“.  A man asking a woman out is MORE likely just looking for sex, and not love, which is why women have to be discerning, IF it’s love/relationship they are looking for.

      The good news (for women) is that men like that are pretty easy to read, and MOST men don’t even try to make a show of falling in love, in order to get sex.  It isn’t necessary to lie to get sex anymore.  For some reason, women who don’t want “just sex” will give a man, who has made no indication of wanting love/relationships etc. sex and think he’ll just magically fall under her spell.  The women who weed out such men are often called “whores” by the manosphereans who slither over here to tell women they should just screw any man who wants to screw them, and a woman’s desire in the matter is immaterial.  (she’s ‘picky’ if she refuses a man because she’s not attracted, and a ‘whore’ if she refuses a man she’s attracted to, because he has told her he is “not ready” or doesn’t want to “label” the relationship)  Many of the men who troll over here to fight with women are VERY bitter that women have ANY choice in who we mate with, and consider a 50/50 decision making arrangement to be giving women ALL the power.  Elliott Rodgers is an extreme example of that.

      However, with

      1. 2.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Sparkling Emerald,

        So no, if a woman has been asked out by a man, he could find her desirable, he could find her “meh”, or he could regard her as a piece of garbage good for nothing but a “hate f—“.

        You understood the point I was making. If a man asks a woman out, she doesn’t hold all the power simply because he did the asking. She has no idea what this true level of interest is. The only time either party may have any “power” — whatever that means — is if one person is completely besotted with the other and the second party really doesn’t care. But who would want that power, anyway, particularly over someone you don’t want? Why is “having the power” always associated with the person who displays the least interest or cares the least?

        1. Bob

          You ask questions because it’s far easier to do so than to expend the effort to argue your point.

        2. Shaukat

          Emily, if a man puts himself on the line to ask you out on a date, he has some degree of real interest. The fact that you have to go on a few dates with him to discern how strong his (and your own) level of interest really is doesn’t appear to be relevant to the issue of confidence. I  can assure you that asking someone on a date and agreeing to go on a date require two different levels of confidence.

          @SE,

          You seem to spend a lot of time on the MRA sites. You should really stop, it’s not good for your mind. The vast majority of men don’t take women out on dates with the purpose of hate fucking” them.

        3. Emily, the original

          Shaukat

          Emily, if a man puts himself on the line to ask you out on a date, he has some degree of real interest.

          Possibly, but not always. I read another dating advice site, and a man wrote in saying that he had spent his life asking women out who were on what he called the B team because the women on the A team  made him nervous. He had never dated women he was really interested in.

          The fact that you have to go on a few dates with him to discern how strong his (and your own) level of interest really is

          I don’t need to go on several dates to discern my level of interest, but it can take time to determine a man’s level of interest and intent.

          doesn’t appear to be relevant to the issue of confidence. I  can assure you that asking someone on a date and agreeing to go on a date require two different levels of confidence.

          I never brought up the issue of confidence. I brought up the issue of power. Men on this site seem to think women have all the power because men do the asking, but it’s not as if women can will the men they really like to ask them out. Futhermore, there’s not a woman on this planet who hasn’t said yes and gone on what she thought was a great date, only to never hear from the guy again. And there’s not a damn thing she can do about that. No side has the power.

           

        4. Buck25

          Emily,

          Let’s see if we can put the whole “who has the power?” question to rest. It seems for whatever reason to be a constant source of disagreement here, split pretty much on gender lines.

          To start with, some here (mostly men) believe women  have all the power in the beginning stage of dating. Put herself out there, the theory goes, and a woman has nothing to do, but sit back, relax and reject, reject, and reject some more until she says yes to a man he catches her fancy. Online dating exaggerates the apparent effect; a woman (provided she’s somewhat attractive), can put up a couple of  pictures, create a half-assed profile in five minutes without a moment’s thought or originality in it, and simply check her mailbox waiting for the offers to roll in. A man in the same setting, unless he is an Adonis, has to work at creating an attention-getting profile, then write creative interesting emails to generate his responses, and so on. He does all the work, she does none, for roughly equivalent results. Offline, a man has to withstand the same repeated rejection after rejection; the woman only has to make herself available, until she chooses to select. Looked at that way. (and most men do) the balance of power seems to lie heavily in women’s favor  at least at that point in the attraction/selection process. However, not all here is what it seems.

          You and SE identified one problem; not all of the offers a woman gets, are the ones she wants, and sometimes none of them are. Short of doing the asking and pursuing herself, there is little to nothing she can do about this. In that case, what she gets for just sitting and waiting is perhaps some small amount of male validation, and little to nothing more. Most of the time men have the initiative, and there is some power in that, since a man (assuming he’s willing to take the inevitable high percentage of rejection), has nothing else to stop him from hitting on (or contacting online) whichever (and as many) women as he chooses. He has every incentive to aim for the top;  no more pain to be rejected by a 10 than a 4  (might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb), and many do, much to the discomfort and dismay of many an average woman (we’ve heard the lamentations here).  Even with that, though, there’s a still bigger factor.

          You alluded to it yourself, Emily, with the question “Why is “having the power” always associated with the person who has the least interest, or cares the least?”

          Simple answer: because that’s exactly how this works. Any market works on value (and power) being related to perceived scarcity, and the idea that any commodity (in this case, person) is worth the price (in this case in emotional investment) the maximum bidder will pay. The application here is obvious. If I’m interested in dating you, and I believe you’re a scarce commodity(because of real or imagined limits on other options), I’m going to invest more, earlier, in the outcome. If at the same time, you believe you have lots of options, then you can wait; your initial investment is limited, or even none. Why? Because in that particular dynamic, you perceive that you have little to nothing to lose; i.e. you’re basically independent of the outcome; in contrast, I have a lot to lose, because I’m already invested in the outcome (due to perceived scarcity). Guess who has the power. However, turn it around, and watch what happens. Same two people, only this time, the roles are reversed.The woman invests early in the man (perhaps because he’s her best offer in a while, while he has really been using his initiative, and now has a lot of potential dating options) Now, it’s the man who’s outcome independent…and yep, now he has the power in this particular pairing.  So before we even get into the whole “commitment” thing, where ultimate power still obviously resides with the man, even on the dating and sex side, I can make the case that women don’t have the power most men (and a lot of women) think they do. They’re not helpless by any means, but a lot of the “women have all the power in dating” is a perception based more on illusion (and guys trying harder rather than dating smarter) than anything else.

        5. Emily, the original

          Buck25

          To start with, some here (mostly men) believe women  have all the power in the beginning stage of dating. Put herself out there, the theory goes, and a woman has nothing to do, but sit back, relax and reject, reject, and reject some more until she says yes to a man he catches her fancy. Online dating exaggerates the apparent effect; a woman (provided she’s somewhat attractive), can put up a couple of  pictures, create a half-assed profile in five minutes without a moment’s thought or originality in it, and simply check her mailbox waiting for the offers to roll in.

          Men shouldn’t be irritated at women for this behavior. It’s MEN who are sending the messages to women. It’s MEN who are besieging women with communication. Maybe men need to organize! Start a revolution! They’re mad as hell and they’re not going to take it anymore! 🙂  Join the MGTOW! Opt out! But they can’t be angry at women for simply putting up a dating profile and receiving attention.

          You and SE identified one problem; not all of the offers a woman gets, are the ones she wants, and sometimes none of them are.

          I’m guessing, but probably 90% of the offers are not ones she wants. Flip the situation. How often have the women who pursued you (or at least made it almost too clear they were interested) been appealing to you?

          Short of doing the asking and pursuing herself, there is little to nothing she can do about this.

          And a woman can certainly do the pursuing. She may do it if she really likes the guy, or as YAG wrote, he’s low-hanging fruit, she hasn’t been with anyone in ages and she thinks, “Why not?”

          Since a man (assuming he’s willing to take the inevitable high percentage of rejection), has nothing else to stop him from hitting on (or contacting online) whichever (and as many) women as he chooses. He has every incentive to aim for the top;

          He can contact whomever he wants but then can’t complain about rejection if, for example, the woman is 25 and says she is looking for someone within five years of her age, and the man is 45.

          You alluded to it yourself, Emily, with the question “Why is “having the power” always associated with the person who has the least interest, or cares the least?”

          It’s sad. Then relationships and dating become a pissing contest to see who can care the least.

          They’re not helpless by any means, but a lot of the “women have all the power in dating” is a perception based more on illusion (and guys trying harder rather than dating smarter) than anything else.

          Just as Evan writes that men get the memo in third grade that they have to do the pursuing, women get the memo that they have to be approachable and receptive. My point: If a woman is interested, she’ll let the man know. There’s no way to avoid rejection completely, but if a man can read the signs, he can reduce it significantly.

        6. SparklingEmerald

          ETO.  I’ll tell you who wants power over another person in a relationship. (all relationships, not just love/sex relationships).  Narcissists.  Wanting to do control, dominate, have power over another is the hallmark of a narcissist.  I think men who complain that women have “all of the power” are just angry that men don’t  have all of the power.

          Personally, I don’t want a power trip.  And I don’t want to be under a guys thumb.  I like being in a relationship where we’re both crazy about each other and no one is competing to be the most indifferent person in the relationship.

           

        7. Emily, the original

          Sparkling Emerald,

          I think men who complain that women have “all of the power” are just angry that men don’t  have all of the power.

          Either that or they are not landing the women they want.

          Personally, I don’t want a power trip. …  I like being in a relationship where we’re both crazy about each other and no one is competing to be the most indifferent person in the relationship.

          I agree, but the issue of power and who is risking more/exposing more/doing more seems to come up over and over again on this blog.

        8. KK

          “I agree, but the issue of power and who is risking more/exposing more/doing more seems to come up over and over again on this blog”.

          Hello Miss Emily,

          That’s true. But I think that has more to do with the men who comment here. The ones who make those statements seem to be the red pill type. I don’t think normal, emotionally healthy men have these same issues.

        9. Emily, the original

          Hi KK,

          But I think that has more to do with the men who comment here. The ones who make those statements seem to be the red pill type. I don’t think normal, emotionally healthy men have these same issues.

          We do get the occasional red pill types or men making outrageous statements to intentionally enrage the female posters (let’s call them trolls) but, for the most part, I think we have some reasoned male opinions posted here. And I can only speak for myself, but I come here for advice and to get the male perspective. (I feel like that Adele song: HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE!)    🙂

        10. KK

          LOL @ ‘Hello from the other side🎶🎶’.

          Emily,

          I agree. The male commenters that are reasonable don’t make those statements, though. Jeremy comes to mind. All the comments I’ve ever read of his have been fair and reasonable. Then, of course there’s our young Adrian. 😊  I’m sure there are others but those two come to mind. If we had lots of great, well thought out male commentary, the ladies here wouldn’t go overboard in praising commenters like Jeremy. JMTC. 😉

        11. Tron Swanson

          I consider myself MGTOW. I think that I’m emotionally healthy, and I’m certainly not making outrageous statements to intentionally outrage female posters.

        12. Emily, the original

          KK,

          Where is Jeremy? I actually use some of his ideas in conversation and claim them as my own!   🙂   I think we’ve lost Adrian to his master’s program. Good for him but bad for us.

        13. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          But you’re not looking for a relationship and this  is a relationship-oriented blog for women, so we take your opinions with a grain of salt.

        14. KK

          Best definition I’ve read of GROW to date:

          MGTOW:

          “Men Going Their Own Way; A bunch of whiny douchebags who can’t get girlfriends because of their blatant hatred of women, but claim it’s because they’re protesting against the unnamed evils that women routinely commit (see cognitive dissonance). Instead of actually going their own way, MGTOW spend excessive amounts of time complaining on the internet about how women have driven society to ruin, while they masturbate in their moms’ basements and do nothing to contribute to society. Some claim that they don’t hate all women, just those uppity “western women.” They’d be perfectly fine with dating one of those exotic, submissive “eastern women” who would do anything they asked (see stereotype).
          It’s the equivalent of a five-year-old trying hold their breath until they get what they want, only they’re being incredibly unclear about what it is that they want and no one cares if they pass out from oxygen deprivation.
          MGTOW: “Waa! Why can’t I get a girlfriend? I’m such a nice guy. Women are such evil, stupid bitches. I’m sick of all you c*nts not blowing me or cooking my dinner. I’m gonna go my own way!Woman: “…Oh no. Don’t not date me. You’re such a charmer. Staying away from women is the most effective way of punishing our misdeeds, please don’t!” *suppresses laughter*MGTOW: “It’s too late, harpy!” *marries Hatsuni Miku body pillow*”

        15. KK

          “Where is Jeremy?”

          Emily,

          Probably giving his wife a massage while she sips on the cocktail he made her. Lol. Luck lady!

        16. Emily, the original

          KK,

          And Adrian probably off being seduced by some Mrs. Robinson type. We may have to cut a bitch to get to him.  🙂

        17. AndyK

          Hi KK,

          As an egalitarian I see many of the same problems in the die hard section of the feminist movement as you see in the die hard sections of the MGTOW movement.

          Both groups suffer from “no true scotsman” argumentation but fail to  distance themselves sufficiently from the extreme viewpoints of outliers. With no leaders or membership this is naturally difficult but somewhat easier for the feminist movement due to them being more accepted socially. In the same way that some MGTOW will state that women are all evil money grabbing harpies, some feminists will state that all men are potential rapists and should be medically or surgically neutered.

          The main message from both camps is that “society” is rigged against them in various situations. Depending on the circumstance both groups are right. If you look for the reasonable members you will find them. With relatively small movements such as the MGTOW/MRA it will take longer as most reasonable people are scared of guilt by association and public humiliation or even losing their job/friends.  I don’t think you’ll find many government officials admitting to be MRA but they might carefully agree that men face some challenges.

        18. Katie

          “Both groups …fail to  distance themselves sufficiently from the extreme viewpoints of outliers.

          The main message from both camps is that “society” is rigged against them in various situations. Depending on the circumstance both groups are right.  I don’t think you’ll find many government officials admitting to be MRA but they might carefully agree that men face some challenges.”

          +1 Andy

        19. KK

          Lol, Emily. Thanks for the laugh!

          Finally… a funny comment on a post that was intended to be funny.  😉

        20. KK

          Hello AndyK,

          I agree with much of what you stated. I don’t know much about MRA / MGTOW. If memory serves me, I’m pretty sure I heard those terms used here first. After some Google searches and reading various websites, I was pretty disgusted. If what you say is true, and those loud mouths only represent the extremes, why would the more reasonable ones (the website owners, presumably) allow such hate filled rhetoric? After all, wouldn’t it weaken their message? Doesn’t add up to me.

          Likewise, I agree with what you said about extreme feminists.

      2. 2.2.2
        Bob

        Generalizations and your very particular point of view, which you have a right to but it’s only that.

        You look for the worst in some men and you find it in all men. Then you let such a warped view of all men be your only view.

        It was educational, though, as you exposed me to some new manosphere terms which you seem to have well memorized.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Bob,

          Here, I fixed this for you:

          “You look for the worst in some women and you find it in all women. Then you let such a warped view of all women be your only view.”

          Because, ya know, right back at you Bob, “Generalizations and your very particular point of view, which you have a right to but it’s only that.”

          The women on this board have learned so many manosphere terms because red-pillers like yourself stop by on occasion to “educate” us.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Bob. Since should seem to not understand the point we are trying to make, about a woman ” knowing” she is desirable, simply because a man has asked been out, please see YAGS … Response under 6.1.1.  Since you don’t understand the point we WOMEN on this thread are trying to make,. I’ll let YAG ” mansplain” it to you.

           

          BTW, most women don’t consider it a compliment to be considered ” low hanging” fruit, considered only worthy of a one night hump and dump.

           

      3. 2.2.3
        Chance

        @SE, “hate f___ing” isn’t a new thing and it’s not a manosphere term.  I think that I first heard the term around 2003.  Also, the term has nothing to do with “dating down” or “slumming it”.  The term specifically relates to women whom men find to be horrible people, but are physically arousing (i.e., she could be a 10 on the looks scale, but she is insufferable).  You make it sound like the term relates to this sweeping trend of men who are intentionally seeking out unattractive, but otherwise nice, women whom they can savagely pound solely because they hate them.  I can’t think of any man who would consciously do that.

        1. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I thought hate f***ing was a term in the same general league as revenge f***ing, a motivation I’m sure does exist for both men and women.

        2. Buck25

          Chance,

          I’ve always been a little confused by that term myself. I guess my question is, if she’s that much of a totally insufferable beotch, I don’t see the point of doing her at all. I guess there might be some emotional reward for a man in dominating a woman like that in bed, but, since word is, (and my anecdotal experience confirms), that most women, most of the time, actually want that anyway, it seems like rewarding the personality, behavior, whatever, that is being complained of, and I’m not sure I see any point. Kinda like getting in a mud-wrestling contest wth a hog; even if you win, you’re filthy at the end of it, and the hog (even if a bit sore) is no worse off anyhow, and doesn’t really care.

        3. Chance

          Emily, it’s possible.  I haven’t heard the term used in that sense, but it seems plausible that it could be used in that sense.

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Chance – Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” thats YOUR bias interpretaion.  I was merely explaining the many reason a man might ask a woman other than he finds her desirable.  Please see YAGS excellent explanation at 6.1.1. …..  Since you don’t think women can be trusted with a word they say, perhpas YAGs explanation will sink in.

          I said HFing was “a thing”, not a sweeping trend.

          House fires aren’t sweeping across the nation, but they happen, so I have smoke detectors.  Home burglaries aren’t sweeping the nation, and certainly not my neighborhood, but I have deadbolts on all my doors.

          Stealing sperm from condoms isn’t a sweeping trend either, but you claim you lock your condom in a safe (when rinsing it out in the sink would be just as effective)

          I screened the men I dated, because the fact that they asked me out, didn’t necessarily mean they found me desirable for a relationship.  It could just mean they were horny, and were playing a numbers game, and they only found me “meh”.

          So glad I am out of the dating jungle now, and happily married !

        5. Chance

          @SE

           

          “Chance – Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” thats YOUR bias interpretaion”

           

          I didn’t say that you said it was a sweeping trend.

        6. KK

          Again. Excellent points, Sparkling Emerald. All true. Including the fact that he said you made it sound like a “sweeping trend”.

      4. 2.2.4
        Buck25

        Emily,

        I read with interest your response (an s well as those of SE and KK to my earlier post on “who has the power”. .

        Do note that my comments are simply descriptive of observed behaviors (online and elsewhere) . I’m not rendering any judgment on the perceptions (on the part of either gender) related to any of this behavior. I’m simply describing the realities of the marketplace.. Whether anyone Male or female) is “irritated” at any of this, is beside the point. Where you get the idea that I’m suggesting me should be “irritated” or “angry” that a woman of (of equivalent age and SMV) can’t get more results online with less work than a a man, I don’t know; I neither said that, nor implied it. One more time, the observations, (as are my others)  is simply descriptive of observed reality in that particular environment. I had to laugh at the comment that maybe we ” men should organize or something…”; I remember saying something similar to a male poster a while back who came here all upset about this;  something along the lines of “Yeah, let’s all form a union, and go on strike until women change! That’ll show ’em!” I thought my sarcasm in that was pretty evident. Maybe not.  It makes no difference anyway, as there are ways and means of working around this and other difficulties; the man who puts those into full use and continues to refine the process, can level the playing field quite a bit, albeit with extra work’ No more use complaining that is needed, than there  is in being upset because a cloud drifted over the sun. The reality (as Evan has frequently observed here, is neither good nor bad, it simply IS.

        I am going to take issue with your comment about reading signs and avoiding rejection (real world only; when making first contact online there are not any “signs ” to read, most of the time). Most of us, after some dating experience, can read a woman’s “indicators of interest” reasonably well, most of the time. Same goes for her indicators of obvious disinterest. In practice however, we encounter a large number of a third group of women who show us neither…for a very good reason; they’re not sure whether they’re interested in us or not, until we approach and attempt to talk with them. There are a lot of great opportunities within that “neutral group” who aren’t “just dying to meet us”, but don’t reject us out of hand either. I’ve pulled a lot of dates from that group. There is  of course, risk of rejection here, but it’s a lot less than there is in trying to pick up that “haughty hottie” who is looking clearly disinterested, just for the challenge of doing so; that last is a low reward strategy that’s rarely if ever worth the effort in the first place. In short, I don’t think most of us can, (unless we’re really going for low-hanging fruit), “rejection proof” ourselves. Rejection is simply a part of the process of becoming more skilled and relaxed in approaching women, period. It’s a man’s price of admission to the game. From a selfish point of view (and in the beginning, that is where most of us ,whether male or female, are coming from,) it simply doesn’t matter to a woman how a man feels about rejection, nor should it; not part of her agenda.  Of course, same goes for how you feel about men unabashedly chasing sex first, when your primary goal is a relationship; not on our agenda, at least, not yet. See how easy that is?

        1. KK

          Buck25,

          FWIW, I enjoy most of your comments and your point of view. Your generation of men are a different breed. I’m not referring to 50s culture. I’m referring to the men. The role of loyal provider / protector was taken seriously. Younger men could benefit from learning a thing or two from you. JM2C.

        2. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          I had to laugh at the comment that maybe we ” men should organize or something…”;

          I meant that as a joke.

           

          When making first contact online there are not any “signs ” to read, most of the time).

          I think the only “signs” in online dating would be the descriptors of what a woman is looking for. What she writes in her profile. If a man doesn’t match those descriptors, he is ignoring the signs.

          In practice however, we encounter a large number of a third group of women who show us neither…for a very good reason; they’re not sure whether they’re interested in us or not, until we approach and attempt to talk with them.

          If you think a woman is interested, what does she do? If you’re out at a bar, does she try to catch your eye and smile at you? Plant herself near you so you can approach? Maybe even walk over and introduce herself? Those would be, I believe, signs of interest. How do you know to approach a woman who’s neither interested nor disinterested? What is she doing that would indicate that? (I’m not being sarcastic. Just curious.)

          In a different situation — say you get introduced through a friend at a party — a man who is being polite and friendly with me but giving off no vibe (for lack of a better term) is someone  I assume is not interested. Is that what you mean by neutral? No vibe?

          There is  of course, risk of rejection here, but it’s a lot less than there is in trying to pick up that “haughty hottie” who is looking clearly disinterested, just for the challenge of doing so; that last is a low reward strategy that’s rarely if ever worth the effort in the first place.

          Why would a man want to bother with a woman who’s clearly disinterested? If she’s showing disinterest, she probably wants to be left alone.

          In short, I don’t think most of us can, (unless we’re really going for low-hanging fruit), “rejection proof” ourselves.

          Yes I acknowledged there is no way to avoid rejection, just ways to minimize it.

           Of course, same goes for how you feel about men unabashedly chasing sex first, when your primary goal is a relationship; not on our agenda, at least, not yet. See how easy that is?

          I’m not always looking for a relationship, and I actually respect a man who makes it clear he’s just looking for sex. Then I know exactly what to expect.

        3. Buck25

          KK,

          Thanks, but honestly, we’re a dying breed. It’s not so much what we tried to teach the ones coming up behind us. My generation of men were shaped by different forces and different times. A lot of it can’t be replicated in your world, and that’s probably just as well; we’re the product of some pretty harsh circumstances, you know. We grew up with different values, a different social order, where we were held to a different standard of personal accountability. We learned chivalry, because,, well, there wasn’t anything else.

          We were a big generation, numbers-wise; so there was a lot of competition, and not too much feel-good consolation for the losers; there wasn’t any “everybody wins” for us. We had  a military far larger and much different from the one succeeding generations know, and a lot of us served in it, whether we wanted to or not. Conscription was a fact of life. That was reality. Many of us learned discipline and leadership there, often the hard way; by today’s standards, it could be (and usually was), pretty brutal. Most of the punishments we routinely faced have been outlawed today.

          We were taught not to show much emotion, and to keep our feelings to ourselves. Those who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) were derisively referred to as “she”. Our heroes were John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Audie Murphy. We learned early that if we talked the talk, we better be able to back it up, or else. It was a pretty rough, but very efficient way to learn not to let our mouths write checks the rest of us couldn’t cash.

          We’re anachronisms now; here out on the far older end of the dating spectrum, trying to remain relevant somehow where there are fewer every day to care whether we are, or not. Those of us still trying would just (in the words of Jimmy Buffett), “‘rather die while I’m living than live while I’m dead”. I don’t know how much we could say to the younger guys they’d even care to hear; I get the feeling a lot of them want us to just get out of their way, and pass into history, as we all will before too long. Other than that, you know us old men love to give good advice; it’s about the only recompense se we get for no longer getting many chances to set a bad example.

        4. Tom10

          @ Buck25
          “I don’t know how much we could say to the younger guys they’d even care to hear; I get the feeling a lot of them want us to just get out of their way, and pass into history, as we all will before too long.”
           
          Ah I also enjoy your posts Buck, but I don’t us young kids are as different as you might think; I recognise in your writing many of the same dilemmas that you had to negotiate in your time.
           
          I’m actually chuckling away here reading your post as it reminds me of the scene in Shawshank Redemption when old Brooksy Hatlen emerges from 50 years in the slammer into a fast-paced world into which he can’t keep up, so he just gives up.
           
          I’ve a quick question Buck; you eloquently outlined the harsh realities of how life was in the “old days”, yet seem to somehow simultaneously lament some of the characteristics of that time that have now been lost.
           
          My question is: what are the positive aspects from your time that you think us (young men in particular) might do well to re-establish? And why, in your opinion, have such behaviors disappeared from the dating scene if they were so good to begin with?

        5. Buck25

          Tom,

          I’ll try to, bearing in mind of course that things were and are a little different on your side of the pond, just as they were back in the time when your grandparents were observing that  “The Yanks are overpaid, oversexed and over here!” Some of my observations will apply differently , or not at all, given some of the differences, but most of the broader scope might have some application.

          One of the biggest things your generation needs to get back to is the concept of chivalry, as it applies to how to treat women.  I don’t know the exact state of that in Britain, but here at least, both what we considered to be manners, and the idea of chivalry in courting, have gone by the boards with much of the younger set.  In fairness, when I was in my younger days, it’wasn’t because we were any more noble, but  (1) we didn’t know any better, (2) it really didn’t occur to us to ask, and (3) our girls (for the most part anyway) couldn’t have paid for dates IF they had found the practice acceptable, since they didn’t have the income equality there is now. My suggestion to the younger guys on that: at least be willing to compromise, understand it’s part of the dating game, and just try to be cool about it, The manners part is a lot easier. Some of you (take this as it applies) seriously need to consult an etiquette book, and learn. I can appreciate the informality of modernity and all that, but there are some limits and there’s no excuse for acting as if you were raised in a barn and know no better. Just know that manners always give you an edge with women (they’re a bit more sensitive to those niceties than we tend to be.)

          Another thing I see a lot is a lack of self-discipline. This is just something that serves you well in every stage  and area of life. For some reason, (over here anyway) it’s non-existent, especially among Millennials. Again, where it applies, it’s a habit well-worth cultivating, and you have fewer opportunities to have it force-fed to you like we did.

          For heaven’s sake, LEARN HOW TO LOSE, then get up and get back in the game! Too much new age “don’t let little Johnny get his little ego hurt” has led to to many young men whose self-esteem can’t take a blow, absorb it, and move on. They have no resilience, having always been told that they “didn’t fail” or “didn’t lose” as kids, when that’s exactly what they did. I’ll be blunt; that is piss poor preparation for an adult man’s world, where losing and failure have real consequences. I’m not suggesting bringing boys up as the Spartans did (you’d kill half of them) but I don’t suggest new age mollycoddling, either. There’s a middle ground, somewhere. Boys, especially, need to learn early that it’s ok to lose, ok to fail; what’s not ok, is lying on the ground crying about it, not learning from the experience,  and even worse, refusing to even try unless the win is guaranteed. Of course losing sucks; did for us too; we learned to try to do better the next time (and unless it kills you, there is always a next time).

          Closely related, there is a saying in the military (I’m sure HM’s forces have an equivalent) “The effective range of an excuse is exactly ZERO meters!”A/K/A, you screw up, you own it.In simple terms you are accountable for what you control, period.  Some younger guys want to pass the excuses and pass the blame, when things don’t go right. Where this applies in dating is, looking to blame women, or your date, for problems you created, or the results you didn’t get, whether because you didn’t know better, you were inept, or you weren’t paying attention. It does not greatly matter, that a girl’s attitude or behavior downright sucked, if you also contributed to whatever the unfortunate result is. You own your part of it, regardless. Figure out what that was, own it, deal with it, and learn from it. Somehow, most of us learned we could still be ok with our selves, without  either quitting, or having low standards for our own conduct, and a higher one for everyone else’s. That’s backwards.

          Last but not least, leadership, loyalty, and trust. I see a lot of lack of all the above in younger men, and it’s one of the things KK was talking about. A lot of us learned a lot of that in a place I sincerely hope you never have to-on a battlefield. You do not survive in combat without those, so it’s pretty enduring lesson. Most of you will have to find other ways; learn it in sports (working as a team is pretty good training for that) learn it any way you can; study the example of others if that’s all you’ve got. Just learn it. Above all, whatever your role is, be the guy everyone around you can count on, not just when it’s easy, but especially when it’s hard. If you cannot learn to put your trust and loyalty with your teammates, 100%, if you cannot trust your subordinates when you lead, or your leadership can’t trust you, you won’t be a very good teammate,  and chances are good you will be a lousy date, a worse relationship partner, and a failure as a husband to any woman worth her salt.

          Again, Tom, you can’t recreate the circumstances that taught us our way, nor should you really want to.There are other ways, and I hope I’ve pointed you toward some of them.. There are some things you most likely don’t want to emulate. Having emotional control is one thing; ending up as emotionally numb, rigid and and unable to express what you feel, as a lot of us did, is not the best thing in the world and will catch up with you eventually. You want to be able to communicate, and in dating and relationships, you’ll need to. Try to get a little of the best of both worlds here.

          One final thought, most of our dating woes have less to do with inability to adapt to this new century, than to the fact we’re all simply aging out of the process You’ll get there too one day, when your own race is run. If you’ve taken care of yourself, you won’t feel old, but you will be old. You’ll like its about as much as I do, I expect; none of us like to feel that we’re ready for the scrap heap. Chances are, by then you may feel a little like an anachronism too, and you just might be. The social pendulum is aways in motion, trying to correct itself; who knows which way it will swing next?

      5. 2.2.5
        Tron Swanson

        KK,

        Wow, that’s awfully insulting. But I suppose you don’t care. Which of us is supposed to be more hateful, again? Because, based on my posts versus your posts, well…

        I will say this, though: you’re absolutely right about how we aren’t contributing anything to society. In my own case, society has never shown much interest in me, so I don’t see any point in showing interest in it.

        Also, for the record, I think that society is rigged against both men and women, but in different ways.

        1. KK

          Tron,

          If those things don’t apply to you, there’s no reason to be insulted. But please don’t play the innocent card with me. If you don’t call women filthy names and insult them, that’s great. Your club does. If you’re okay with that, you’re no better than them.

        2. Tron Swanson

          I didn’t know that I belonged to a club. In my view, any man that chooses to make women less of a priority–despite being sexually attracted to them–is MGTOW. That will range all the way from vocal, angry men to carefree men that have never heard of the term and are simply living their lives. From serial daters to men that try not to interact with women at all.

          As for what I’m okay with…I’m pretty much agnostic on that subject. There are more than enough women and men who worry about women’s well-being. That issue is the subject of articles, seminars, all kinds of stuff. I think I’ll stick to worrying about men’s well-being, because that sort of thing gets much less attention. You take care of your problems, and I’ll take care of mine.

      6. 2.2.6
        Shaukat

        Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” that’s YOUR bias interpretation

        SE, while you didn’t use the word ‘trend,’ you did imply it with this statement:

        So no, if a woman has been asked out by a man, he could find her desirable, he could find her “meh”, or he could regard her as a piece of garbage good for nothing but a “hate f—“. 

        By lumping in the phenomena of ‘hate f–” with the other two possibilities, you seemed to be suggesting that when a man asks out a woman there is an equal probability that he might be motivated by genuine romantic interest, the drive for casual sex, or a propensity to hate f–. You seem to base this hypothesis on the info you read on some obscure male websites.

        Again, I think this is ludicrous on its face. The idea that a large number of men would ask out women they’re not really attracted to just to punish them with a hate f– is absurd and encroaches on loony tune territory. Men will date women just for sex, of course, but that’s different from hate f—.

  3. 3
    AndyK

    One thing I see again and again is that women want confident men. As a man I think I’d do very poorly in the dating scene if I was openly insecure about my looks. Men are also generally terrible at giving each other compliments in my experience, especially when it comes to looks. Your average guy doesn’t get many compliments from women either. I am also wondering if part of this inflated self image  is a coping mechanism to handle rejection. It’s much easier to consider if a case of the eye of the beholder and move on after a failed approach.

    When it comes to women I suspect that the ones very confident about their looks get put down by both genders for various reasons. Though I can testify that having to constantly reassure a partner about her looks gets old quickly as well.

    1. 3.1
      Adrian

      Hi AndyK,

      You stated, “As a man I think I’d do very poorly in the dating scene if I was openly insecure about my looks.

      What a very thought provoking statement.

      Women constantly say they want a man who is confident. The second a man starts to show any insecurity he is labeled a beta, or a “nice guy.”

      I wonder: if a woman in a new relationship seeks comfort by asking her guy if she is fat or not that attractive most guys would automatically try to dissuade her negative believes and then move on, but I wonder if a man did this to a woman in a new relationship, how many women would start to lose attraction for the guy. I base this thought on all that I have read by women (even on this site) about losing attraction for a guy if she starts to show any insecurity.

      Not to make this a gender thing but on this specific subject I can’t help but wonder if a guy acted human in a new relationship how many women would honestly not lose attraction for him.

      It is sad that some of women believe that picture up top is true.

      I can’t speak for most guys but growing up I have been rejected by women who said things like:

      You are too skinny for me

      You are too short for me” I didn’t get my growth spurt until 11th grade

      I need a guy who is bigger <talking of width> so I can feel feminine.”

      I think a man should have a flat stomach to be sexy

      I want a man whose arms are big and hard

      I need a man strong enough to lift me up or I want a man who can carry me

      Or the girls who knew I liked them but still talked about how sexy other guys bodies around me

      Damn! Such and such guy is so sexy! Especially with his shirt off!

      I would love to have a man with a nice muscular arms and chest!

       

       

      There are newer search results than the one I listed down below but I felt that this one was better because of two reasons.

      1. The majority of articles published about body image issues still talks about women, this one focuses only on men (yes we all acknowledge that women struggle with this but by including women in the article you are taking away the emphasis on the issues men face with this problem).

      2. This article unlike newer ones actually list more research studies and not just a journalist speaking about it. This is important because most women will most likely react by just say, “well yeah but women face this problem more!”

      And  that is not the point, the point is that both genders face this problem! You don’t say more women are victims of depression than men, you say both people suffer from it.

       

      http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15160230/ns/health-mens_health/t/guys-have-body-issues-too/

       

      1. 3.1.1
        AndyK

        Even that article makes a point of saying “women have it worse”. I don’t understand why these things have to be zero sum games.

        One of my colleagues has a calendar with swimsuit models in his area. At first I thought this was a bit off. I then realised that the women in my workplace frequently talk about male celebrities and how hot they are and how they would totally sex them. Why would one be offensive and not the other? It’s not like they’re talking about tiny men with a weight problem.

        I’m generally accepting of my body but it is in spite of knowing that there are MANY improvements that can be made to conform better with expectations. Some only need hard work, some would require surgery. I’m not going to make a list because it’d seem way more negative that it is, haha.

        I don’t want to live in a society where we can’t look at good looking men and women and acknowledge them for what they have. It’d be the thought police next. The problems come when it leads to people being misguided on what’s “normal” and “healthy” .

        1. KK

          “Even that article makes a point of saying “women have it worse”. I don’t understand why these things have to be zero sum games”.

          Hi AndyK,

          Is it possible you only want to acknowledge areas where men have it worse? Most of the female commenters here are very generous in acknowledging those areas.

        2. AndyK

          Hi KK,

          I was referring to where Adrian was saying in his numbered list that the other articles he found were also mentioning about women’s body image and I was noting the linked article follows the same pattern.

          I find the whole concept of “who has it worse” strange as it is extremely difficult to quantify. I know plenty areas where women have it worse than men. I also know plenty areas where my neighbours has it worse than me.

          I’ll easily admit to being a but cautious of statements from soft sciences and gender studies in particular. This is mostly due to issues with their scientific methods.

  4. 4
    BOB

    Your average guy doesn’t get many compliments from women either

    Whereas women are constantly telling each other they’re beautiful- even if they haven’t even seen each other! If you want proof, look at the comments on the site; a woman will whimper about how she’s not confident, and the other women will say “you’re beautiful!” Again, even without having seen her.

     

    I am also wondering if part of this inflated self image  is a coping mechanism to handle rejection.

    We have to cope with rejection or at least the likelihood thereof if we ask even one woman out even once. This is especially the case now that women (1) don’t need a man to financially survive, (2) are taught to be picky, (3) are naturally, evolutionally picky, and (4) are generally told to wait to marry.

    This is in contrast to the past in which women were expected to marry and be codependent with their husbands- who themselves were definitely codependent on their wives- and generally weren’t told to pursue careers.

    It’s rough for men now. We need women to have children and are expected to do everything a man was expected to do in the 1950’s.

    It’s easy for women now. A woman doesn’t need a man to have children- witness IVF and choice motherhood- and a woman is no longer bears the expectations she did in the 1950’s.

    1. 4.1
      Stacy2

      Yeah it’s a fucking walk in the park for women these days. Be a breadwinner and a human petri dish pumped with hormones for the IVF and then be a single parent. What a treat. What could possibly make it better? Oh I know, adding a whiny useless husband with no real income to this equation.

      1. 4.1.1
        Bob

        That’s what matriarchy looks like!

      2. 4.1.2
        Just saying

        You sound very bitter…………..

    2. 4.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      So you want to return to the days where women were “expected” to marry?  Why?  What is so good for men in the equation when women have to marry?  What would you rather hear from your wife?  “I married you because I had to”, or “I married you because I wanted to.”

      As far as for women “being told to pursue careers” that’s a nifty little manosphere trope.  Have you looked into what has happened to wages, benefits, and the economy since the 1970s?  It now takes two incomes to support a middle class lifestyle for the majority of families.  Women have to work.  It’s a fact of life.

      And being “told to wait to marry”?  Hell yes!  The divorce rates are highest for people who marry in their early 20s.  College educated women who wait to marry until their 30s are way less likely to divorce.  Maybe because these marriages are highly co-dependent (not your fantasy of what a 1950’s marriage was like) where breadwinning, household chores, and childrearing are shared between spouses instead of being divided up along gender lines.

      1. 4.2.1
        Buck25

        GWTF,

        All I can say to that, is I lived through the fifties (the real fifties, not the current romanticized version.)  Idyllic it was not. I saw among my parents’ friends many a couple where the woman married some hapless beta drone of a guy, not because she really wanted to, but because she pretty much had to marry somebody. They spent the rest of their lives hating, nagging and resenting those men for not being the fairy tale prince they though they were supposed to get. Those marriages were hellish affairs, and divorce was not the easy option it is today.  About the only thing I can say is that after observing those spineless, gutless, beaten-down, henpecked specimens of men, like my father and the husbands of most of my mother’s friends, cringing in abject fear of their disillusioned, hate-filled, and domineering wives, I had a very clear idea of what kind of man I definitely did not want to grow up to be! I’d love to have a time machine to transport the guys here who long for those days back there; I don’t think they would have fared too well, or liked it much, either. As for the rest of that gray, drab, boringly conformist, way over-religious and rather prudish (by modern standards) 1950’s society, if there is a hell, I guess it would look a lot like that…

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Buck,

          Exactly!  I wasn’t alive in the 1950s,but one thing I’m certain of is that the women’s movement and sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s happened because there was mass dissatisfaction with the status quo.  Yes there is a lot of fall out that both genders have to deal with, but overall more freedom to choose whether to marry or not, who to marry, and whether to end a marriage or not are good things.

  5. 5
    KK

    YAG said,

    “On the other hand, I have never dated a woman who did not seek the approval of her BFF or girlfriends”.

    Are you sure about that? I’m wondering how you would even be privy to those conversations. If a woman you’re dating tells you that her friend Sheila thinks you’re great, for instance, it doesn’t mean she sought approval from her.

    I have never sought approval from my girlfriends nor have I EVER told one of my girlfriends I didnt approve of who they were dating. Looks, personality, career… doesn’t matter. The ONLY times I have spoken up is when I felt like they were being mistreated in some way.

    1. 5.1
      Emily, the original

      KK,

      I have never sought approval from my girlfriends nor have I EVER told one of my girlfriends I didnt approve of who they were dating.

      Agreed. I’m not in high school.

  6. 6
    Shaukat

    While men and women are undoubtedly different, that cartoon is not at all a good example of such differences.  Body image obsession, for men and women, is more the product of consumer/diet culture, advertising, and socialization, as opposed to innate differnces. I doubt either gender was focused on such issues during the middle ages, if you know what I mean.

    1. 6.1
      KK

      Hi Shaukat,

      Women wearing cosmetics and perfumes date back to ancient Egypt; well before the 476AD starting point of the middle ages.

      I absolutely agree that our current culture has greatly enhanced the obsession with body image, but I’m not willing to say there aren’t any inherent genetic aspects to it as well. Either way, whether we can agree or not as to why it’s true, most people can agree that the cartoon is true and find it to be funny.

      1. 6.1.1
        Chance

        “Either way, whether we can agree or not as to why it’s true, most people can agree that the cartoon is true and find it to be funny”

         

        I’m not sure that’s right because it all depends on perspective.  I would agree that most women find the cartoon to be true.  However, a large percentage of men out there think that women believe they are better looking than they really are.

        1. KK

          Chance,

          I find it highly unlikely that you speak for a large percentage of men. You may speak for the red pill crew, but they hardly make up a large percentage of men. Most men I know would laugh. Lighten up.

        2. Chance

          I find the cartoon to be funny, too, because there’s some tangential truth to it.  However, you aren’t considering (or, at least, acknowledging) that there are other perspectives out there when you say that most people would agree that the cartoon is true.  Go ask any 23 y/0 guy out there if he thinks that girls his age are too hard on themselves, and I think the majority of guys would say no.

           

          I would say that each sex is harder on themselves as it relates to traits that the opposite sex places a higher relative value on when considering a romantic partner.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          If we are talking about online dating (OLD), then I have to agree with Chance.   I believe that women are far less narcissistic in real life.   The attention that a woman receive via OLD can result in her developing an unrealistic sense of what is truly obtainable to her long term (it is kind of like being a single woman in a Navy town).  Guys all of ages engage in hypogamous behavior on OLD sites in order to meet their sexual needs.  The practice of going ugly early applies to OLD as well.  A man with game who wants a low-effort sex partner for the weekend will always select a woman who he sees as low-hanging fruit much in the way that a predator selects an easy kill from a pack of prey.  He will select a woman who is attractive enough for a one-night stand or sexy-on-standby status, but not attractive enough to be the woman with whom he is seen in public.  I was definitely guilty of the practice after I separated from my ex.

        4. KK

          No one is talking about OLD or 23 year olds. It’s a funny cartoon. Get over it!

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          Not to mention that most of us women have our body insecurity moments in private where men don’t see it.  They would be scared to death if they did!

        6. Chance

          My bad, KK.  I thought you were talking about most men and women since that was the tone of your blanket statement.  What specific conditions do you think this is present?

        7. KK

          Chance,

          Duh… It is about MOST men and women. If it’s that important to you, why don’t you find out who the cartoonist is and ask him / her.

          I take it you’ve never been to a comedy club. If so, did you only laugh at the jokes aimed at women? Could you not find the humor at the jokes aimed at men as well? Did you dissect and analyze everything that was said or do you actually have a sense of humor?

          The funniest / most successful comedians are successful simply because they point out the absurdity of real life situations.

          Did you see the performance on comedy central (can’t remember the comedian) where he’s waiting for his wife to get ready to go out?  He’s been waiting over an hour and when he goes in the bedroom to see how much longer it will be, she says, “not much longer. All I need to do now is get dressed”. He then goes on a hilarious tangent about women. About how over an hour ago, she said she needed to get dressed. Women get it and know it’s funny, because it’s true. Men get it and also find it funny because its true.

          A lot of us will do our hair, make up, everything we need to do, and slip our clothes on at the last minute. But we don’t always say, “it’s going to take me a while to do my hair and makeup”. We’ll say, “I need to get dressed”. Technically, it’s innacurate. It takes seconds to put an outfit on. And…. that’s the humor in it! It’s an almost universal experience.

        8. Chance

          KK, but you said no one is talking about 23-year-olds or OLD.  If your comment applies to most men and women, then it would be fair to assume that young men and women would fall under that umbrella as well as how the phenomenon may manifest in OLD, no?

        9. Chance

          Patently false, KK.  I said that a large percentage of men think that, but I didn’t say the majority.  I understand your stance, however, which is that no one individual can speak for an entire group of people except for you (since you have admitted that it is appropriate for you to conclude that most women think worse of themselves than they should and that most men would agree that the joke is true).  We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that stance and move on.

        10. SparklingEmerald

          Chance you original point was not the different people have different perspectives, you original point was to directly contradict KK’s original assertion that MOST (not all) people would find the cartoon funny by saying “I’m not sure that’s right because it all depends on perspective.  I would agree that most women find the cartoon to be true.  However, a large percentage of men out there think that women believe they are better looking than they really are.’
          You also see all butt-hurt that after you contradicted her and mansplained to her why she was wrong she didn’t back down and say you were right.

          Of course YOU believe most women are conceited because you generally distrust and dislike women.  And of course you had to contradict KK on a simple matter of a lighthearted cartoon,  because as you admitted, you only come to this blog to fight with women.

          Evan brought up the cartoon in a light hearted way.  He even put in a stereotype alert.  It was all done in the spirit of fun.  Yet the men who are acting all butt-hurt over this are berating the women for joining in with the lighthearted piece of humor that Evan brought to this blog, and not berating Evan (not that I think he should be berated), but instead scolding the women for seeing the humor.

        11. Chance

          SE, I don’t think anyone is “butt-hurt” over the cartoon.  I already said that I thought it was funny.  You quoted my original comment, and the point of that comment was to note that there are different perspectives out there.  If you don’t want to acknowledge that, then that is your choice.

        12. KK

          Thank you, Sparkling Emerald! Your response to Chance NAILED it on each and every account!

      2. 6.1.2
        KK

        No, Chance. Because neither you or I or YAG can speak for most 23 year olds or OLD users. We can each speculate and each come to different conclusions and none of us would necessarily be right or wrong. It’s about men and women, in general. That includes all age groups and types of daters. If anyone doesn’t find it funny, they’d be an outlier, in my opinion.

        Maybe you should re-read the first two sentences of this post: “Not every blog post has to explore the deep existential crisis of wanting to find lasting love in a lonely, indifferent universe. Sometimes, it just feels good to laugh”.

        1. Chance

          KK, to make sure that I understand:  you are saying that we cannot individually speak for most 23-year-olds or OLD users, but we can individually speak for entire genders.  Is that correct?  That is the message I am getting from you based on the following comments that you wrote:

           

          “The mirror cartoon is true. Lol! Most women are so hard on themselves and most men are… well… not.”

           

          and…

           

          “most people can agree that the cartoon is true and find it to be funny.”

        2. KK

          Chance,

          I get the distinct impression you like to argue with me simply for the sake of argument. That’s fine. Petty really, but fine.

          I’m pretty sure you understand exactly what I’m saying, but just to appease you this once…

          For every 23 year old you personally know that doesn’t agree with or believe the cartoon is true, I could find another 23 year old who does. Same goes for people using OLD. Same goes for any group of people you want to single out. Hell, who knows, maybe diabetics as a group, would find it untrue. What exactly is your point??? The cartoon(s) simply demonstrate gender differences. Not gender differences excluding group a, b, or c. I’m sure you could argue that your red pill crew disagrees. That doesn’t make it any less true. It’s possible that extreme feminists would be offended by the comedy act I alluded to earlier. Doesn’t make it less true.

          So, to answer your question simply…. yes, I can speak to the differences between the genders. I do so confidently. I know, without a doubt, that the differences I see in the world around me are different than the differences you see. I know that my perception is much more accurate than yours because I don’t carry the same baggage and bitterness you do, at least in judging by many of your comments, regarding the opposite sex.

          Done now?

        3. Chance

          “For every 23 year old you personally know that doesn’t agree with or believe the cartoon is true, I could find another 23 year old who does. Same goes for people using OLD. Same goes for any group of people you want to single out.”

           

          KK, you just inadvertently agreed with my original point:  that people have different perspectives.  We can agree after all, see?

        4. Shaukat

          Hi KK,

          To be clear, I have no problem with a cartoon and it doesn’t bother me at all if people find it funny. I don’t really find it all that funny, but only because my sense of humor is a bit on the raunchy side.

          I was simply addressing the political/social message that the joke was conveying. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to laugh at a joke while also dissecting it’s underlying message and assumptions. To that end, I agree that men and women have been decorating themselves with ornaments back when human were organized in tribes, but the obsession with beauty and body image is in fact fairly recent, and it is correlated with the rise of the beauty industry. Also, I think the message is a little dated-many young men are now a days just as obsessed with body image as women.

          GWTF,

          Thanks for the link. It was an interesting piece, but I lost interest when it started speculating that intellectual achievement was linked to body structure, while neglecting all the environmental factors which we know impacts IQ and academic achievement. Also, Psychology Today is not a peer-reviewed publication, and I haven’t checked the underlying studies.

          Chance,

          You make a good point about perception. I would argue that most attractive women, when they do have an insecure moment, generally have it in private, which does not contaminate their public persona. Many do likely have an inflated image.

           

        5. KK

          Chance,

          Lol! I did not inadvertently agree with your original point. You said, “However, a large percentage of men out there think that women believe they are better looking than they really are”.

          I call BS!

          The cartoon is true. Get over yourself.

          Most women are very hard on themselves. The minority of truly, narcissistic (or delusional about their appearance) women you may encounter are just that… in the minority. It is also true that most men are overly generous in their perception of themselves. Not all, but most.

          Likewise, if someone were to make a cartoon poking fun at 23 year olds, what would it look like? Possibly, a group of them staring at their I-phones… or texting each other even though they’re in the same room. It’s a stereotype. It’s funny because it’s true. Could we find a group of 23 year olds that it doesn’t apply to? Yep. Doesn’t change anything.

          I think the joke was lost on you. I will go so far as to say that ANY joke poking fun at men would be lost on you. You don’t care to admit to any flaws; regardless of how superfluous, regardless of how true. I get it.

        6. Chance

          KK, lots of noise coming from you, but the fact remains that you agree with my original point, which is that people have different perspectives that form their unique views.

        7. KK

          Again, Chance, that was not your original point. Your original point was saying what YOU think the majority of men think.

           

        8. KK

          Shaukat,

          “I would argue that most attractive women, when they do have an insecure moment, generally have it in private, which does not contaminate their public persona”.

          Agreed. But let’s not dismiss the dozens of actresses and models who have spoken out over the years about their own struggles with trying to maintain an unrealistic body image.

          “Many do likely have an inflated image”. 

          How have you come to this conclusion?

          “I was simply addressing the political/social message that the joke was conveying. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to laugh at a joke while also dissecting it’s underlying message and assumptions”.

          Of course, it’s perfectly acceptable. It also completely ruins the joke. Lol.

           

        9. Chance

          Patently false, KK.  I said that a large percentage of men think that, but I didn’t say the majority.  I understand your stance, however, which is that no one individual can speak for an entire group of people except for you (since you have admitted that it is appropriate for you to conclude that most women think worse of themselves than they should and that most men would agree that the joke is true).  We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that stance and move on.

        10. Shaukat

          KK, I came to that conclusion the same way you arrived at your conclusion that in general women are hard on themselves while men are…not. Through anecdotal evidence and a series of real life observations.

        11. Chance

          KK, as it relates to your linked study:  I want to make sure I understand your stance.  Are you saying that women rate themselves lower than they should in the looks department, while men rate themselves higher than they should (as would be indicated by the cartoon), or are you saying that women are simply more self-conscious about their appearance than men?  Or both?  I ask because, while these two stances may appear to be similar, they are actually quite different.

           

          If you are only saying that women are more self-conscious about their looks, then I would agree with that.  I don’t think there’s any question that women are more concerned with, and have more invested in, their appearance than men.  As the study illustrated, women are much more likely to seek validation on their appearance by uploading photos of themselves to social media (hence, the social media sharing epidemic among females).  If you mean that women are harder on themselves in that they care more about their appearance than men, then I would agree (this is what I meant when I said the cartoon had some tangential truth to it).  However, men do care about their appearance more than they let on.

           

          That said, the cartoon actually indicates that men and women have very different images of themselves.  More specifically, the cartoon indicates that women think they are uglier than they are, while men think that they are better looking than they are.  This is where I think a lot of men would disagree.  I don’t think that men believe they are better looking than they actually are any more so than women.  However, I do think that men are less likely to care if they aren’t looking good than women.

        12. Shaukat

          KK, a few points:

          1). I did not say that the majority of women have an inflated image of themselves. I implied that some do. My initial point was simply that women’s self consciousness surrounding their body image is more the result of socialization and cultural factors than biology. In fact, the study you cited corroborates this point. Consider just this quote:

          In conclusion, girls expose more themselves to social media which seem to be the reason why they care more about the way they appear in pictures, the number of friends they have, and, most importantly, about having perfect Internet versions of themselves. They fall harder online because they’re putting themselves out there more.

          Now, unless you want to argue that women are naturally less intelligent and more superficial and have a biological drive to spend all their time posting idiotic selfies on social media, then I think you would have to stipulate to my initial point.

          2). You paint with a broad brush what you dislike as ‘red pill.’ Some of it is toxic, but some of it, specifically that area associated with self-improvement and female psychology, can be quite useful as well.

           

        13. KK

          Chance,

          I’m not sure why you insist on engaging me in conversation. You ask me questions and when I answer you say I’m making a lot of noise. There’s a solution to that you know….

          Anyhow, I thought I was pretty clear. But to reiterate, yes, the cartoon is true (not just some tangential truth) BOTH because most women are harder on themselves than they should be AND because most men think they’re more attractive than they actually are. I’m not sure why I need to interpret that for you. Surely you can look at the cartoon yourself and come to that conclusion.

          I can understand why that offends you or you disagree or however you’d like to word it. I get the sense you’re unable to laugh at yourself or your own gender. That’s unfortunate. I laugh at myself all the time. I even told you about a comedian poking fun at women that I found to be funny. I could give lots of other examples of stereotypical female behavior that’s pretty darn hilarious.

          Which brings me to my question for you. Are there ANY examples of stereotypical male behavior you can think of that you find to be true and / or funny?

        14. Chance

          KK, for the third time:  I thought the cartoon was funny.  I thought all of the cartoon stereotype examples were funny (many of which weren’t flattering of men).  I believe you mentioned that you thought almost all of the examples were true…. I’m curious as to which ones you thought weren’t true?  Please elaborate.

           

          I am also trying to wrap my mind around why you think that you can speak for entire groups of people, but others cannot.  Please elaborate.

    2. 6.2
      Just saying

      Bit of a negative feedback loop. If women didn’t give a damn what others/society/media thought, media obsession with women’s looks would simply cause them to go bankrupt.

      Remember when the media, in cohoots with the fashion industry, tried to sell skirts and make-up to men ? Where did that end up ?

      For most of recorded history, women have traded on their looks, or been traded on for their looks so ot course women will obsess about that part of them on which their survivial depends.

      Ultimately, human actions and motivations all come down to pure simple survivial and instincts for survival. Media and external forces can do all the can to brainwash and indoctinate the sheep, and while they can re-enforce pyschology that is already present in humans, then simply cannot erase thousands of years of evolutionary psychology.

       

      1. 6.2.1
        Buck25

        Maybe not, but there is a whole slick media and advertising industry out there, that has  gotten very, very adept at marketing all sorts of products by helping create and reinforce, then rather aggressively and transparently marketing to, the insecurities of BOTH genders. Let’s face it, sex (and people’s anxieties about being able to get it), sells. Cynical, of course, but hey, just follow the money…

    3. 6.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      Shaukat,

      There may be a sound biological reason why women invest time, worry, and effort into their appearance.  The linked article is specifically about weight and the feminine hourglass body shape.  Think corsets, waist clinchers, bustles, and girdles throughout history.

      https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201207/eternal-curves

      1. 6.3.1
        Yet Another Guy

        However, the article also drones on about how women seek the fashion model look.  All seeking that look does is lead young women down the path to anorexia nervosa.  Most men do not like women who are built like boys.  Men read Playboy (okay, a few just gawk at the photos 🙂 ), not Vogue.

        Here is a tip.  When a man selects “slender” on a dating site, he means a woman whose waist size is smaller than her hip size and not too fluffy, not fashion model.  Men do so because “average” is now a synonym for “I have let myself go to be point where my waist size is the same size as my hip size.”  The descriptor “curvy” on dating sites is now a synonym for smaller BBW (it is often used a synonym for larger BBW and SSBBW as well).

        Personally, I will take an amply-built, truly curvy woman over an athletically-built woman any day of the week.   An amply-built, truly curvy woman looks like a woman.  She is soft and delightful to hold.  🙂

        When a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face…

        1. Yet Another Guy

          Disclaimer: I am a white boy. 🙂

      2. 6.3.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        YAG,

        The point they made with the fashion model look is that tall women have more space between the lowest ribs and the top of the hip bone, and this lends itself to a small hip to waist ratio.  Most mainstream models–think Glamour magazine covers, SI swimsuit issue, Victoria’s Secret fashion show–have the same 0.7 hip to waist ratio that Playboy centerfolds do.  Yet models sometimes get called emaciated while centerfolds are labelled curvy.  But simply, Playboy centerfolds are essentially models who have undergone breast “enhancement” surgery.

        It’s been medically known for quite some time that weight gain around the waist and belly is more health endangering than weight gain in the hips, butt, and thighs, for both men and women.  The intra-abdominal fat is metabolically active and promotes inflammation, insulin resistance, and arterial disease.  So you could make the argument that men being attracted to women with a slender hourglass figure is a matter of them wanting, on a subconscious level, an overall healthy mate.  (And for the same reasons, women don’t find obese men attractive).

        What I find fascinating about the article is that it links men’s research studied preference for a H/W ratio of around 0.7 to the fact that women with that body type have higher levels of essential fatty acids that promote fetal brain development, than women with thicker waists or outright obesity.  When you look back in history at how women used clothing items to accentuate their body, it’s almost always used to accentuate the silhouette of a small waist and flared hips.  Corsets, waist cinders, hoop skirts, bustles, and girdles are all samples of this.  This has been going on for centuries.  So I don’t think media created a male desire for a certain female body type.  It is feeding the demand that is already there.

        Disclaimer here:  I’m not saying that this feeding of the demand is not damaging to girls, women, and society.  What I’m proposing is that it isn’t just all a media creation.  There is a reason the media and advertisers latched onto this female shape.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          P.S.–I have no idea what to put down for “body type” on my OLD profile.  Slender, toned and athletic, curvy, etc. all seems to be meaningless these days.  Instead, about half my photos are full body or near full body shots.  The guys looking can figure out for themselves what I am and whether they like it or not 😉

        2. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          My two cents on the body description verse the full body picture is this:

          My height is 5’11 with shoes off, but I always contemplate listing myself as 6’0 if I did actively try online dating.

          Because from what I have read most women set their filters to at least 6’0 in their search criteria (I know the few half dozen regulars on here say they don’t care about height, but that is not how the research says the majority of women use online dating). So if I listed my real height I would show up on a far fewer search results.

          So my point is even if you use full figure pictures, you still need to set your profile so that it appears in the majority of searches.

          I still haven’t found the motivation to actively try online dating but from what I continually read it appears that toned and athletic gets the most views by men… and women-followed by average.

          …   …   …

          P.s. Don’t quote me on this but I remember I once read a study that said that even with full body pictures men AND women don’t believe what they see if your body is on the borderline.

          I took that to mean that unless you are noticeably slender, athletic, or toned the person viewing your picture will still have doubts about your body shape.

          Because most people (men and women) choose flattering photos of themselves-face and body.

          So a guy who may appear on the heaver side of the average body type in his photo may in person be fat.

          As the commentator Karmic Equation use to say, women are simple when it comes to their attraction for men; he is either a yes, a no, or she is neutral about her attraction for him (which is why she advocated the power of courting). A guy showing up looking fat though he posted moderately average full figure photos can have himself pushed into the no territory; especially if he mislabeled his body type.

          As Karmic use to say, a neutral guy has the chance to become a yes guy but a no guy does not have a chance with that particular woman. GoWithTheFlow I feel that we men are a little simpler than that; if we want to meet than you are a “yes we are attracted to you” girl until proven to be a no girl.

          “Most” men I know of don’t have a neutral when it comes to women; so I don’t believe we can be courted into seeing a woman as a “yes I now find her attractive.”

          Contrary to the popular online belief the majority of men don’t want to have sex with a woman who he sees as a “no I don’t find her attractive” girl.

          Anyway, my whole point is that it does matter how you label your self if you want to maximize the number of searches you show upon with online dating.

          But again I read the study years ago so I can’t remember the finer points of the research. And I have learned on this site there is a fine line between being a normal look driven human and being shallow in the realm of dating.

        3. Stacy

          This is also very cultural based. I am from the Caribbean and the thin super model look is seen as the exact opposite of attractive. If you are ‘slim’, you better be ‘curvy/have a shape’ to go with the slimness. I think white men are the ones predominantly more attracted to the super model, super thin look with barely any fat. I looked like that until my 30s and thank God I filled out a bit more now (although my waist is still super small). Personally I find that more attractive (although I also see super models as beautiful but would not want their exact body type).

  7. 7
    John

    Shaukat said:

    Body image obsession, for men and women, is more the product of consumer/diet culture, advertising, and socialization, as opposed to innate differnces. I doubt either gender was focused on such issues during the middle ages, if you know what I mean.

    Yes.  Everyone was worried about dying from the flu or the black plague  in the old days. Now we don’t have a whole lot to worry about. Except the stuff we like to make up in our heads.

  8. 8
    Adrian

    Hi Emily,

    I would like to address and try to answer (only from my perspective) some of your questions

    1). Emily asked: ” How many women do you know who are really good with the opposite sex and have swarms of men around them? (And this isn’t just about being good looking.)”

    I know lots of women who are “actually” really good with the opposite sex. I don’t know any men who are “actually” even just good with the opposite sex.

    But you are right, the majority of those women don’t flaunt how good they are at reading and manipulating men; while all the guys I know who think they are love to flaunt it.

    My theory is that since women (according to what I have learnt from Karmic Equation) usually have a binary view of their attraction towards men such as “yes he is attractive, no he is not attractive, and neutral opinion of a guys attractiveness”; Only attractive boys got attention and therefore the practice of dealing with women from an early age.

    But men view women more on a scale (1-10) so even if a girl is not a 7-10 she will still get plenty of attention (even unwanted) from the opposite sex. Wanted or unwanted the constant interaction of dealing with boys to men from her youth gives women a basic skill with dealing with the opposite sex.

    It goes back to the conversation you and I had a few weeks ago about socially awkward people: have you noticed more socially awkward men or women? I have noticed more socially awkward men.

    2). Emily asked, “do you always ask out the women you are most interested in? Do you always pursue and ask out women who are you first choice?

    Yes!

    But…

    If a man just stopped at his first choice then he would most likely never have a girlfriend. You have mentioned your distaste for this on numerous post. So what would you like a guy to do?

    If he finds you and two other women attractive it may not be that he finds them more attractive it may just be that the opportunity to ask them presented itself before the opportunity to ask you.

    If they both tell him no are you saying you don’t want him to ask you? What if it was the opposite? What if you said no… should he just stop from asking other women? Just because you did not find him attractive but another women does, would he ever know if he did not ask?

    I am not defending men or am I debating you on this I am genuinely curious as to what do you suggest men do?

    Now if you are speaking about men who do this in your face then I completely understand. I once met a very attractive girl who was introduced to me by a friend. A few days later at a party she approached me and I honestly felt that she thought I was special and that she was attracted to me-she even offered me her number without my asking. Well eventually we parted after a nice lengthy conversation and as the night went on I noticed that literally every-time I looked for her she was flirting with a different guy.

    So of course I did not call her. But now years later after reading the comments from the women on Evan’s blog, I see that women talk to multiple men and choose the man who wins her/ proves himself  best to her/ is better then the others/ stands out the most, etc.

    The point is that women want the man who feels she is worth it and she will choose the guy who displays this (among other things) the best. This is why Evan tells us to not ask but assume that the person we meet is talking to others. He doesn’t tell us to stop talking to them because of this but instead he tells us that we should become better than the competition.

    Maybe this is not the message given to women but it is the message given to us men. Is the message that is given to women; if you are not his first choice he is not really into you? He is a player? He doesn’t want you?

    I am honestly curious because I as a man can not afford to view it this way or I WILL remain single.

    3). Emily stated: ” If a man asks a woman out, she doesn’t hold all the power simply because he did the asking.

    So I DON’T want to get into the who has more power or who has it easier in dating debate.

    BUT

    I will give an example that can hopeful help you see how I and possible other guys see it.

    Emily have you ever had to ask a friend or a family member for a loan? If so you know that when you ask you no longer feel like their equal. You feel that they are judging you, scrutinizing you before they answer; and if they say no the awkwardness of being around them until you pay them back adds even more to the power imbalance.

    Now imagine having that experience everyday until you get a yes, but with strangers. And if you make the mistake of reading the person wrong then you have to live with the awkwardness of them knowing you like them but they don’t feel the same way.

    You once stated that it is not fun for women having to wait for a guy she likes to ask her out but that is not completely the same. If he doesn’t ask it sucks but that is just one guy, now if you had a different guy who you found attractive not approach you everyday then you would be in the same ball park.

    Again I am not down playing what women go though but it seems like women are down playing what men go through.

    Women will look at the picture above and say “YES! We suffer from a negative self body image, but do women ever stop to think about how it affects a man’s ego and self-esteem to constantly get rejected by someone who you find attractive???

    And again unlike women we don’t just have a yes or no but a scale of who we consider attractive. If you are constantly being told NO, but all levels of attractiveness, all sizes, all racial and ethnic groups, then yes it affects your confidence…

    Oh but wait! Women are not attracted to guys that don’t have loads of confidence (o_O)

    Instead of one being worse than the other why can’t they both just be the bad side of the same coin?

    I use to be really short until 11th grade; short and scrawny so I always got picked last in every sport. So I kind of know how women feel when they say it hurts not being picked by a guy who they are attracted to.

    Not being picked or being picked last makes you feel not good enough.

    That is why I say both suck, both are the same coin just different sides. One is a direct rejection and the other is a indirect rejection… but both are rejections.

    However I will say this about the male side of the rejection coin…

    If you ask me out then I know how you feel about me, I can accept or reject you. If I REJECT you then you feel awkward around me because you have open yourself up to me, exposed your personal feelings and I rejected you.

    BUT

    If I just never ask you out nor show interest in you… sure it sucks that the guy you liked did not ask you out YET there is no embarrassment, no awkwardness between us, no feeling that EVERYONE knows you were rejected by me.

    I agree that men do not have it worse but I also believe that most women don’t see it from a man’s point of view… why do you think most door to door sales people are men?

    Women don’t like direct rejection either but if a man complains about it then he is not confident, alpha, or secure…

    1. 8.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Adrian,

      We haven’t heard from you in so long, you should have your PhD by now!  🙂

      I’ll answer what I can but I am old and my mind wanders when I’m listening to my disco music, so bear with me ….  🙂

      My theory is that since women (according to what I have learnt from Karmic Equation) usually have a binary view of their attraction towards men such as “yes he is attractive, no he is not attractive, and neutral opinion of a guys attractiveness”  Not for me. It’s a yes, a no or a maybe. (A maybe means I think he’s kind of cute, but I’m on the fence. ) A “neutral” is a no. A neutral is I feel nothing.

      Only attractive boys got attention and therefore the practice of dealing with women from an early age. To an extent, I guess, but I’m not just focusing on appearance, which so many of the male posters on this site do. There’s more to being attractive to the opposite sex than just being attractive. I have a childhood friend who is “good with the opposite sex.” She is cute but by no means beautiful, but she is warm and flirty. She LIKES men, and they pick up on that and feel good around her.

      If a man just stopped at his first choice then he would most likely never have a girlfriend. You have mentioned your distaste for this on numerous post. My distaste is for men who ask out lots of women and without any thought to whether the women are actually interested.
      If he finds you and two other women attractive it may not be that he finds them more attractive it may just be that the opportunity to ask them presented itself before the opportunity to ask you. If they both tell him no are you saying you don’t want him to ask you? I’m assuming I wouldn’t find out that he asked those other women out first, but how would you feel if a girl you really liked said yes to you only because her first and second choices didn’t ask her out? It’s hard for me to answer this question. I’ve always known who I wanted, and if it didn’t work out with that  person, I waited until I met another first choice. I’m not advocating this way of dating. This is just how I have done it.

      What if it was the opposite? What if you said no… should he just stop from asking other women? Of course not

      Well eventually we parted after a nice lengthy conversation and as the night went on I noticed that literally every-time I looked for her she was flirting with a different guy. I am actually very flirty myself. Ninety percent of it means nothing, I believe, to both sexes, but I agree that it can be difficult to discern someone’s intentions. I’ve been wrong before.
      But now years later after reading the comments from the women on Evan’s blog, I see that women talk to multiple men and choose the man who wins her/ proves himself  best to her/ is better then the others/ stands out the most, etc. But don’t men do that, too?

      Again I am not down playing what women go though but it seems like women are down playing what men go through. I am not trying to down play what men go through. If I have, I apologize.
       And if you make the mistake of reading the person wrong then you have to live with the awkwardness of them knowing you like them but they don’t feel the same way. If you ask me out then I know how you feel about me, I can accept or reject you. If I REJECT you then you feel awkward around me because you have open yourself up to me, exposed your personal feelings and I rejected you. Ok, I’ll be honest, this I don’t get. AT ALL. That’s why I was asking men if they always asked out their first choices. It’s a date, not a marriage proposal. I never assume that a man who asks me out is dying of love for me. If I say no, I don’t get some perverse thrill knowing he’s got “feelings for me.” I don’t know what the depth or extent of his feelings are. Maybe he really likes me or maybe he’s just looking to get laid. Who  knows? You haven’t exposed yourself to the extent you think you have by asking someone out.

      And in terms of feeling awkward, it goes both ways. I went out with this guy a year ago. He asked me out on a second date and I said no. I STILL feel awkward around him even though I did the rejecting. He handled the whole thing badly and I wish I’d never agreed to go out with him.

       

      1. 8.1.1
        Henriette

        “Ok, I’ll be honest, this I don’t get. AT ALL. That’s why I was asking men if they always asked out their first choices. It’s a date, not a marriage proposal. I never assume that a man who asks me out is dying of love for me.”   Thank you for stating this, Emily t.O.; I absolutely agree.  I know plenty of guys who ask out women they’re not particularly interested in bc they haven’t been on a date in a while and so why not go to a play or see a movie with some female companionship instead of sitting at home alone on a Saturday night?  They are, understandably, perplexed when the women behave as these guys must be pining for them just bc they invited them to do something.  My assumption is always that a man asks me out bc he wants some pleasant company that might possibly lead to more, unless he outright states/ indicates that he has strong romantic interest in me.  Guys, please don’t assume a woman knows you’re seriously digging her, just bc you ask her out!

        1. Emily, the original

          Henriette,

          My assumption is always that a man asks me out bc he wants some pleasant company that might possibly lead to more, unless he outright states/ indicates that he has strong romantic interest in me. 

          Exactly, and the operative word is MIGHT lead to more. I never assume.

      2. 8.1.2
        Nissa

        I agree. A lot of the time men who ask me out, do so before asking me any questions about myself. This leads me to the conclusion that his desire to go out with me, is specifically based on appearance, and has almost nothing to do with me as a person. Which I find a bit dehumanizing. Or, they ask me stilted questions like, “do you have a hobby?” that don’t seem to have any relation to me, ie they could ask the same question to any person in the room.

        I would be more impressed by them saying something that specifically relates to me (Your dress is pretty) or (Are you getting a latte or a scone? they both look good and I need help deciding) or even something slightly generic that is in my environment (Boy, it’s hot today, isn’t it?).

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *