(Stereotype Alert!) Are Men and Women Different? It Sure Looks That Way.

are-men-and-women-different-it-sure-looks-that-way

Not every blog post has to explore the deep existential crisis of wanting to find lasting love in a lonely, indifferent universe. Sometimes, it just feels good to laugh. 

I saw this cartoon on Facebook and that’s what it did for me, stereotypes and all.

Maybe my wife and I are a walking cliche, but all the stuff about her taking more time to get dressed, making copious lists before packing, having a cluttered desktop, and being perpetually late TOTALLY applies to our relationship.

If you’re going to read this and claim it’s sexist because your boyfriend is always late, or is the one who hordes clothes, save it.

We know. Not all men and women are alike

So if you’re going to read this and claim it’s sexist because your boyfriend is always late, or is the one who hordes clothes, save it.

We know. Not all men and women are alike.

But stereotypes exist for a reason. Anyone with two eyes, two ears and a modicum of life experience knows that we are both biologically and sociologically different.

I find those differences to be endlessly fascinating and worthy of discussion – just not in the comments section of a lighthearted cartoon. 🙂

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Comments:

  1. 1
    KK

    Too funny! The mirror cartoon is true. Lol! Most women are so hard on themselves and most men are… well… not. 😂

    1. 1.1
      Yet Another Guy

      Men are generous with respect to body image until it comes to height, and then they are as insecure as women.  The reason is the same; namely, Hollywood and the media bombarding us with images of the ideal man and woman.  It used to be common to cast a 5’5″ to 5’8″ man in a major male role.  Dustin Hoffman is 5’6″ and so is Henry Winkler.  Today, 5’11” is the shortest height a man other Tom Cruise can claim to be if he wants a leading role.  A lot of actors claim to be 5’11” who are actually shorter than 5’11”, but know that they cannot get away with claiming to be 6’0″ (that irritates guys like me who are over 6’0″ when we wake up, but around 5’11.5″ after spinal compression kicks in during the day).  Brad Pitt claims to be 5’11”, but he is actually barely 5’10” (more like 5’9″ and change).   He always wears a shoe with a sizeable heel to appear taller (Cuban heels appear to be his favorite); however, his body proportions give him away.   His build is too slight for a 5’11” man.  I have seen Brad Pitt in the flesh, and he is much smaller than me.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        His build is too slight for a 5’11” man.  I have seen Brad Pitt in the flesh, and he is much smaller than me.

        Most movie/tv stars look much smaller in person. The screen makes people look heavier and bigger in stature. I have read that Johnny Depp is also a slight man. But keep in mind, both men are very handsome. Even if neither man was famous, I don’t think most women would kick them out of bed for only being average height.

        1. Stacy

           
          Although my man is 5’8” and I rarely see women complain if a man is at least 5’9”…most women would probably, if they have FREE range of choice, pick men that are over 6 feet. Most men would probably, if they have FREE range of choice, pick a woman that is between slim to ‘thick’ (by ‘thick’, I mean smaller waist and curvy) but certainly not fat or obese.
           
          HOWEVER, falling in love is so much more complex than just that. There is charm factor and chemistry, and degree of handsomeness and social status and the way a person dresses, etc…and many of us fall for so many other factors than what is just seen in the first place. So while I believe there is a desired standard, most of us are mature enough to realize that we have to be flexible in this regard and just as happy with our choices. Brad Pitt would probably be just as ‘hot’ to a lot of women if he was just 5’8” with his looks and ‘swag’. Some men/people just have that je ne sais quois about them.
           

        2. Emily, the original

          Stacy,

          Most women would probably, if they have FREE range of choice, pick men that are over 6 feet.

          Yes, I agree, although for some reason I have never cared about height. I would much rather date a handsome short man than a taller man who wasn’t as attractive.

          Brad Pitt would probably be just as ‘hot’ to a lot of women if he was just 5’8” with his looks and ‘swag’. Some men/people just have that je ne sais quois about them.

          That’s the point I was trying to make about several guys I know thinking they are ladies’ men. There are very few people of either gender who have that je ne sais quios.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy

          I rarely see women complain if a man is at least 5’9”

          Herein lies the disconnect.  A man who is 5’9″ is not exactly a concession.  A 5’9″ man is taller than 50% of the male population.  In my humble opinion, the 6’0″ threshold is little more than a self-inflicted mindfuck that does little more than keep women on dating sites single.  I am absolutely certain that most women could not distinguish between a 5’10” man and a 6’0″ man if viewed separately with no references in the background to use to gauge height, especially if the 5’10” man had a larger, more muscular/athletic build.  I routinely have women tell me that I have to be taller than 6’0″, but my height is only 6’0″ for short period of time on the morning before gravity takes over and compresses the discs in my spine.

          In my humble opinion, height is little more than female psychological trigger for strength, which satisfies the primal need for safety and security.  It serves the same purpose for women that woman’s cup size and hip-to-waist ratio serve for a man.  At my peak in my bodybuilding days (late twenties), I would make guys who were 6’2″ and 6’3″ look diminutive.  Yet, I was just under 6’0″. I have an old friend who is 6’3″ with a medium build.  He loved to club with me during that point time because women would turn and look and the men would get out of our way when we walked into a room.

          The female brain is wired to key on physical prowess.  From my personal experience, it becomes easier for a woman to override this primitive wiring as she gains experience with men (i.e., baggage), but she will always notice a man who is physically large in an athletic way for his height.  Non-athletically-built men generally do not mess with athletically-built men, and by extension, women who are with athletically-built men.   That is why 5’7″ men who are gym rats do so well with women even though they are shorter than average, that is, as long as they do not become narcissistic in the process.

           

        4. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          The female brain is wired to key on physical prowess. 

          For every woman who loves Channing Tatum, there’s another who loves the skinny but rebellious, edgy, punk rocker type. An element of danger is hard wired for some women, too.

      2. 1.1.2
        Emily, the original

        KK,

        Most women are so hard on themselves and most men are… well… not.

        Yes.

    2. 1.2
      mgm531

      Why should men be hard on themselves when women do the job for them?

      1. 1.2.1
        Emily, the original

        mgm531,

        I know several men who seem to think they are ladies’ men. And while there is nothing inherently wrong with any of these guys, they are hardly men who are naturally good with women and drawing them in. Flip the situation. How many women do you know who are really good with the opposite sex and have swarms of men around them? (And this isn’t just about being good looking.)

        1. mgm531

          I don’t really know and I don’t really care.  What I do care about is people gender bashing based on stereotypes.  Be it from men bashing women or women bashing men.  It’s not fair nor is entirely accurate.  So when I see it I call it out.

        2. Buck25

          Honestly? Damn few, in my experience. You did ask.

        3. KK

          mgm531,

          The post is about the differences between men and women. They’re funny because they’re true (for the most part). It’s unfortunate that some people get butt hurt instead of being able to laugh about those differences. There’s a big difference between pointing out those inherent differences and therefore, being able to laugh about them vs making hateful or harmful comments ie gender bashing, as you stated.

        4. Bob

          Women don’t have to approach, ask someone out, impress, charm, prove themselves, pass tests, all while being appraised by a scrutinous woman or, better, by her and her friend. Or her friends.

          Men have to do all that.

          So men have to be self assured. Women don’t. After all, when you’ve been approached or are being pursued, it’s obvious you’re desirable.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Bob

          Oh, the infamous friend test. Guys do not ask their friends if a woman is hot enough to date. After all, most men have gone ugly early a time or two; therefore, a man knows not to go there when another man asks. On the other hand, I have never dated a woman who did not seek the approval of her BFF or girlfriends.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          *Oh, the infamous girlfriend test!

      2. 1.2.2
        Emily, the original

        mgm531,

        There is a fine line between self-delusion and self-confidence.

        1. mgm531

          As there is a fine line between critique and hypocrisy.  Where it is perfectly acceptable to make negative comments about men based on stereotypes but heresy for any one to make negative comments about women based on stereotypes.

      3. 1.2.3
        Buck25

        Short answer, for themselves. Be the best man you can be; you’ll be happier  (and a lot healthier) that way. What women think of that, is irrelevant…unless you need them to validate you, in which case, you’ll never do well with women anyway.

      4. 1.2.4
        Yet Another Guy

        *Oh, the infamous girlfriend test!

  2. 2
    Bob

    Women don’t have to approach, ask someone out, impress, charm, prove themselves, pass tests, all while being appraised by a scrutinous woman or, better, by her and her friend. Or her friends.

    Men have to do all that.

    So men have to be self assured. Women don’t. After all, when you’ve been approached or are being pursued, it’s obvious you’re desirable.

    1. 2.1
      Emily, the original

      Bob,

      Women don’t have to approach, ask someone out, impress, charm, prove themselves …  Men have to do all that. After all, when you’ve been approached or are being pursued, it’s obvious you’re desirable.

      Yes, that’s all true, but do you always ask out the women you are most interested in? Do you always pursue and ask out women who are you first choice? I ask because, while I do assume a man has some interest in me if he asks me out, I never know to what extent. He may have asked out 10 women and I was the one who said yes. Or he may be dating several women to determine who he likes best. An initial show of interest by asking someone out is just that … an initial show.

      1. 2.1.1
        BOB

        Do you read Evan’s advice at all?

        Do you read anyone’s advice at all?

        Just make him wait for sex.

        That’ll vet ‘im.

        1. Emily, the original

          Your reply has nothing to do with what I wrote and what you originally posted about men having to do all the work, but … ok.

      2. 2.1.2
        MilkyMae

        I’ve seen this happen so many times.  I’ve done it myself. I man makes a normal gesture of attraction and women dismiss it as an aberration.  He wants go a date with me so there must be something wrong.  He’s a player, he wants my body, I don’t know if he is right for me, he hits on everyone, he seems a little gay, he thinks plus sized women are easy…. Impostor syndrome will wreck you dating life more than anything.

      3. 2.1.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        I believe that most men learn to adopt a play it safe approach to dating.  That is why the women who get asked out the most are those who are ranked cosmetically directly below the women who everyone agrees are beautiful.  It is almost like a woman should be attractive, but not beautiful because men want to limit the possibility of rejection.  That being said, there are times when a man will date a woman who he considers to be too plain to be his girlfriend because he believes that she will be an easy sexual conquest.  As Bob mentioned, the easiest way to determine if a man truly finds you to be attractive is to make him wait for sex.   If a man  believes that he is dating down in the looks department, he will break pursuit.

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          That being said, there are times when a man will date a woman who he considers to be too plain to be his girlfriend because he believes that she will be an easy sexual conquest.

          Yes, you mentioned this before. But please be aware: women do the same thing. Just because a woman goes to bed with you doesn’t mean she’s ga ga into you. It could mean that or it could be for a million other possible reasons.

        2. KK

          YAG,

          Didn’t you say you tried dating all the Barbie doll types at the gym but you didn’t think they were kind enough, so you married a plain Jane type and then soon realized there was no physical attraction, which ultimately led to the downfall of your marriage?

          Just curious because of what you stated here:  “That being said, there are times when a man will date a woman who he considers to be too plain to be his girlfriend because he believes that she will be an easy sexual conquest”.

          Or in your case, you know she’d be willing to marry you…

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Our lack of chemistry had nothing to do with looks.  My ex is not a plain jane.  Where she differed from the women I dated before her was that she was not super feminine or high maintenance (my ex also has a brain).  Most Barbies take high maintenance to a new level.

    2. 2.2
      SparklingEmerald

      “. . .it’s obvious you’re desirable.”

      As Emily tried to explain, but the point was obviously lost to you, not neccessarily.

      There are thousands of men’s websites out there teaching men to regard women as the enemy and good for nothing but sex.  Most women want a RELATIONSHIP, and that is the crux of Evan’s advice, to wait, to see if the man want THE WOMAN, or just sex.

      Men are routinely taught to “date down” “slum it” or to “lower their standards” in order to get laid.  Even “hate f—ing” is a thing now.

      So no, if a woman has been asked out by a man, he could find her desirable, he could find her “meh”, or he could regard her as a piece of garbage good for nothing but a “hate f—“.  A man asking a woman out is MORE likely just looking for sex, and not love, which is why women have to be discerning, IF it’s love/relationship they are looking for.

      The good news (for women) is that men like that are pretty easy to read, and MOST men don’t even try to make a show of falling in love, in order to get sex.  It isn’t necessary to lie to get sex anymore.  For some reason, women who don’t want “just sex” will give a man, who has made no indication of wanting love/relationships etc. sex and think he’ll just magically fall under her spell.  The women who weed out such men are often called “whores” by the manosphereans who slither over here to tell women they should just screw any man who wants to screw them, and a woman’s desire in the matter is immaterial.  (she’s ‘picky’ if she refuses a man because she’s not attracted, and a ‘whore’ if she refuses a man she’s attracted to, because he has told her he is “not ready” or doesn’t want to “label” the relationship)  Many of the men who troll over here to fight with women are VERY bitter that women have ANY choice in who we mate with, and consider a 50/50 decision making arrangement to be giving women ALL the power.  Elliott Rodgers is an extreme example of that.

      However, with

      1. 2.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Sparkling Emerald,

        So no, if a woman has been asked out by a man, he could find her desirable, he could find her “meh”, or he could regard her as a piece of garbage good for nothing but a “hate f—“.

        You understood the point I was making. If a man asks a woman out, she doesn’t hold all the power simply because he did the asking. She has no idea what this true level of interest is. The only time either party may have any “power” — whatever that means — is if one person is completely besotted with the other and the second party really doesn’t care. But who would want that power, anyway, particularly over someone you don’t want? Why is “having the power” always associated with the person who displays the least interest or cares the least?

        1. Bob

          You ask questions because it’s far easier to do so than to expend the effort to argue your point.

        2. Shaukat

          Emily, if a man puts himself on the line to ask you out on a date, he has some degree of real interest. The fact that you have to go on a few dates with him to discern how strong his (and your own) level of interest really is doesn’t appear to be relevant to the issue of confidence. I  can assure you that asking someone on a date and agreeing to go on a date require two different levels of confidence.

          @SE,

          You seem to spend a lot of time on the MRA sites. You should really stop, it’s not good for your mind. The vast majority of men don’t take women out on dates with the purpose of hate fucking” them.

        3. Emily, the original

          Shaukat

          Emily, if a man puts himself on the line to ask you out on a date, he has some degree of real interest.

          Possibly, but not always. I read another dating advice site, and a man wrote in saying that he had spent his life asking women out who were on what he called the B team because the women on the A team  made him nervous. He had never dated women he was really interested in.

          The fact that you have to go on a few dates with him to discern how strong his (and your own) level of interest really is

          I don’t need to go on several dates to discern my level of interest, but it can take time to determine a man’s level of interest and intent.

          doesn’t appear to be relevant to the issue of confidence. I  can assure you that asking someone on a date and agreeing to go on a date require two different levels of confidence.

          I never brought up the issue of confidence. I brought up the issue of power. Men on this site seem to think women have all the power because men do the asking, but it’s not as if women can will the men they really like to ask them out. Futhermore, there’s not a woman on this planet who hasn’t said yes and gone on what she thought was a great date, only to never hear from the guy again. And there’s not a damn thing she can do about that. No side has the power.

           

        4. Buck25

          Emily,

          Let’s see if we can put the whole “who has the power?” question to rest. It seems for whatever reason to be a constant source of disagreement here, split pretty much on gender lines.

          To start with, some here (mostly men) believe women  have all the power in the beginning stage of dating. Put herself out there, the theory goes, and a woman has nothing to do, but sit back, relax and reject, reject, and reject some more until she says yes to a man he catches her fancy. Online dating exaggerates the apparent effect; a woman (provided she’s somewhat attractive), can put up a couple of  pictures, create a half-assed profile in five minutes without a moment’s thought or originality in it, and simply check her mailbox waiting for the offers to roll in. A man in the same setting, unless he is an Adonis, has to work at creating an attention-getting profile, then write creative interesting emails to generate his responses, and so on. He does all the work, she does none, for roughly equivalent results. Offline, a man has to withstand the same repeated rejection after rejection; the woman only has to make herself available, until she chooses to select. Looked at that way. (and most men do) the balance of power seems to lie heavily in women’s favor  at least at that point in the attraction/selection process. However, not all here is what it seems.

          You and SE identified one problem; not all of the offers a woman gets, are the ones she wants, and sometimes none of them are. Short of doing the asking and pursuing herself, there is little to nothing she can do about this. In that case, what she gets for just sitting and waiting is perhaps some small amount of male validation, and little to nothing more. Most of the time men have the initiative, and there is some power in that, since a man (assuming he’s willing to take the inevitable high percentage of rejection), has nothing else to stop him from hitting on (or contacting online) whichever (and as many) women as he chooses. He has every incentive to aim for the top;  no more pain to be rejected by a 10 than a 4  (might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb), and many do, much to the discomfort and dismay of many an average woman (we’ve heard the lamentations here).  Even with that, though, there’s a still bigger factor.

          You alluded to it yourself, Emily, with the question “Why is “having the power” always associated with the person who has the least interest, or cares the least?”

          Simple answer: because that’s exactly how this works. Any market works on value (and power) being related to perceived scarcity, and the idea that any commodity (in this case, person) is worth the price (in this case in emotional investment) the maximum bidder will pay. The application here is obvious. If I’m interested in dating you, and I believe you’re a scarce commodity(because of real or imagined limits on other options), I’m going to invest more, earlier, in the outcome. If at the same time, you believe you have lots of options, then you can wait; your initial investment is limited, or even none. Why? Because in that particular dynamic, you perceive that you have little to nothing to lose; i.e. you’re basically independent of the outcome; in contrast, I have a lot to lose, because I’m already invested in the outcome (due to perceived scarcity). Guess who has the power. However, turn it around, and watch what happens. Same two people, only this time, the roles are reversed.The woman invests early in the man (perhaps because he’s her best offer in a while, while he has really been using his initiative, and now has a lot of potential dating options) Now, it’s the man who’s outcome independent…and yep, now he has the power in this particular pairing.  So before we even get into the whole “commitment” thing, where ultimate power still obviously resides with the man, even on the dating and sex side, I can make the case that women don’t have the power most men (and a lot of women) think they do. They’re not helpless by any means, but a lot of the “women have all the power in dating” is a perception based more on illusion (and guys trying harder rather than dating smarter) than anything else.

        5. Emily, the original

          Buck25

          To start with, some here (mostly men) believe women  have all the power in the beginning stage of dating. Put herself out there, the theory goes, and a woman has nothing to do, but sit back, relax and reject, reject, and reject some more until she says yes to a man he catches her fancy. Online dating exaggerates the apparent effect; a woman (provided she’s somewhat attractive), can put up a couple of  pictures, create a half-assed profile in five minutes without a moment’s thought or originality in it, and simply check her mailbox waiting for the offers to roll in.

          Men shouldn’t be irritated at women for this behavior. It’s MEN who are sending the messages to women. It’s MEN who are besieging women with communication. Maybe men need to organize! Start a revolution! They’re mad as hell and they’re not going to take it anymore! 🙂  Join the MGTOW! Opt out! But they can’t be angry at women for simply putting up a dating profile and receiving attention.

          You and SE identified one problem; not all of the offers a woman gets, are the ones she wants, and sometimes none of them are.

          I’m guessing, but probably 90% of the offers are not ones she wants. Flip the situation. How often have the women who pursued you (or at least made it almost too clear they were interested) been appealing to you?

          Short of doing the asking and pursuing herself, there is little to nothing she can do about this.

          And a woman can certainly do the pursuing. She may do it if she really likes the guy, or as YAG wrote, he’s low-hanging fruit, she hasn’t been with anyone in ages and she thinks, “Why not?”

          Since a man (assuming he’s willing to take the inevitable high percentage of rejection), has nothing else to stop him from hitting on (or contacting online) whichever (and as many) women as he chooses. He has every incentive to aim for the top;

          He can contact whomever he wants but then can’t complain about rejection if, for example, the woman is 25 and says she is looking for someone within five years of her age, and the man is 45.

          You alluded to it yourself, Emily, with the question “Why is “having the power” always associated with the person who has the least interest, or cares the least?”

          It’s sad. Then relationships and dating become a pissing contest to see who can care the least.

          They’re not helpless by any means, but a lot of the “women have all the power in dating” is a perception based more on illusion (and guys trying harder rather than dating smarter) than anything else.

          Just as Evan writes that men get the memo in third grade that they have to do the pursuing, women get the memo that they have to be approachable and receptive. My point: If a woman is interested, she’ll let the man know. There’s no way to avoid rejection completely, but if a man can read the signs, he can reduce it significantly.

        6. SparklingEmerald

          ETO.  I’ll tell you who wants power over another person in a relationship. (all relationships, not just love/sex relationships).  Narcissists.  Wanting to do control, dominate, have power over another is the hallmark of a narcissist.  I think men who complain that women have “all of the power” are just angry that men don’t  have all of the power.

          Personally, I don’t want a power trip.  And I don’t want to be under a guys thumb.  I like being in a relationship where we’re both crazy about each other and no one is competing to be the most indifferent person in the relationship.

           

        7. Emily, the original

          Sparkling Emerald,

          I think men who complain that women have “all of the power” are just angry that men don’t  have all of the power.

          Either that or they are not landing the women they want.

          Personally, I don’t want a power trip. …  I like being in a relationship where we’re both crazy about each other and no one is competing to be the most indifferent person in the relationship.

          I agree, but the issue of power and who is risking more/exposing more/doing more seems to come up over and over again on this blog.

        8. KK

          “I agree, but the issue of power and who is risking more/exposing more/doing more seems to come up over and over again on this blog”.

          Hello Miss Emily,

          That’s true. But I think that has more to do with the men who comment here. The ones who make those statements seem to be the red pill type. I don’t think normal, emotionally healthy men have these same issues.

        9. Emily, the original

          Hi KK,

          But I think that has more to do with the men who comment here. The ones who make those statements seem to be the red pill type. I don’t think normal, emotionally healthy men have these same issues.

          We do get the occasional red pill types or men making outrageous statements to intentionally enrage the female posters (let’s call them trolls) but, for the most part, I think we have some reasoned male opinions posted here. And I can only speak for myself, but I come here for advice and to get the male perspective. (I feel like that Adele song: HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE!)    🙂

        10. KK

          LOL @ ‘Hello from the other side🎶🎶’.

          Emily,

          I agree. The male commenters that are reasonable don’t make those statements, though. Jeremy comes to mind. All the comments I’ve ever read of his have been fair and reasonable. Then, of course there’s our young Adrian. 😊  I’m sure there are others but those two come to mind. If we had lots of great, well thought out male commentary, the ladies here wouldn’t go overboard in praising commenters like Jeremy. JMTC. 😉

        11. Tron Swanson

          I consider myself MGTOW. I think that I’m emotionally healthy, and I’m certainly not making outrageous statements to intentionally outrage female posters.

        12. Emily, the original

          KK,

          Where is Jeremy? I actually use some of his ideas in conversation and claim them as my own!   🙂   I think we’ve lost Adrian to his master’s program. Good for him but bad for us.

        13. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          But you’re not looking for a relationship and this  is a relationship-oriented blog for women, so we take your opinions with a grain of salt.

        14. KK

          Best definition I’ve read of GROW to date:

          MGTOW:

          “Men Going Their Own Way; A bunch of whiny douchebags who can’t get girlfriends because of their blatant hatred of women, but claim it’s because they’re protesting against the unnamed evils that women routinely commit (see cognitive dissonance). Instead of actually going their own way, MGTOW spend excessive amounts of time complaining on the internet about how women have driven society to ruin, while they masturbate in their moms’ basements and do nothing to contribute to society. Some claim that they don’t hate all women, just those uppity “western women.” They’d be perfectly fine with dating one of those exotic, submissive “eastern women” who would do anything they asked (see stereotype).
          It’s the equivalent of a five-year-old trying hold their breath until they get what they want, only they’re being incredibly unclear about what it is that they want and no one cares if they pass out from oxygen deprivation.
          MGTOW: “Waa! Why can’t I get a girlfriend? I’m such a nice guy. Women are such evil, stupid bitches. I’m sick of all you c*nts not blowing me or cooking my dinner. I’m gonna go my own way!Woman: “…Oh no. Don’t not date me. You’re such a charmer. Staying away from women is the most effective way of punishing our misdeeds, please don’t!” *suppresses laughter*MGTOW: “It’s too late, harpy!” *marries Hatsuni Miku body pillow*”

        15. KK

          “Where is Jeremy?”

          Emily,

          Probably giving his wife a massage while she sips on the cocktail he made her. Lol. Luck lady!

        16. Emily, the original

          KK,

          And Adrian probably off being seduced by some Mrs. Robinson type. We may have to cut a bitch to get to him.  🙂

        17. AndyK

          Hi KK,

          As an egalitarian I see many of the same problems in the die hard section of the feminist movement as you see in the die hard sections of the MGTOW movement.

          Both groups suffer from “no true scotsman” argumentation but fail to  distance themselves sufficiently from the extreme viewpoints of outliers. With no leaders or membership this is naturally difficult but somewhat easier for the feminist movement due to them being more accepted socially. In the same way that some MGTOW will state that women are all evil money grabbing harpies, some feminists will state that all men are potential rapists and should be medically or surgically neutered.

          The main message from both camps is that “society” is rigged against them in various situations. Depending on the circumstance both groups are right. If you look for the reasonable members you will find them. With relatively small movements such as the MGTOW/MRA it will take longer as most reasonable people are scared of guilt by association and public humiliation or even losing their job/friends.  I don’t think you’ll find many government officials admitting to be MRA but they might carefully agree that men face some challenges.

        18. Katie

          “Both groups …fail to  distance themselves sufficiently from the extreme viewpoints of outliers.

          The main message from both camps is that “society” is rigged against them in various situations. Depending on the circumstance both groups are right.  I don’t think you’ll find many government officials admitting to be MRA but they might carefully agree that men face some challenges.”

          +1 Andy

        19. KK

          Lol, Emily. Thanks for the laugh!

          Finally… a funny comment on a post that was intended to be funny.  😉

        20. KK

          Hello AndyK,

          I agree with much of what you stated. I don’t know much about MRA / MGTOW. If memory serves me, I’m pretty sure I heard those terms used here first. After some Google searches and reading various websites, I was pretty disgusted. If what you say is true, and those loud mouths only represent the extremes, why would the more reasonable ones (the website owners, presumably) allow such hate filled rhetoric? After all, wouldn’t it weaken their message? Doesn’t add up to me.

          Likewise, I agree with what you said about extreme feminists.

      2. 2.2.2
        Bob

        Generalizations and your very particular point of view, which you have a right to but it’s only that.

        You look for the worst in some men and you find it in all men. Then you let such a warped view of all men be your only view.

        It was educational, though, as you exposed me to some new manosphere terms which you seem to have well memorized.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Bob,

          Here, I fixed this for you:

          “You look for the worst in some women and you find it in all women. Then you let such a warped view of all women be your only view.”

          Because, ya know, right back at you Bob, “Generalizations and your very particular point of view, which you have a right to but it’s only that.”

          The women on this board have learned so many manosphere terms because red-pillers like yourself stop by on occasion to “educate” us.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Bob. Since should seem to not understand the point we are trying to make, about a woman ” knowing” she is desirable, simply because a man has asked been out, please see YAGS … Response under 6.1.1.  Since you don’t understand the point we WOMEN on this thread are trying to make,. I’ll let YAG ” mansplain” it to you.

           

          BTW, most women don’t consider it a compliment to be considered ” low hanging” fruit, considered only worthy of a one night hump and dump.

           

      3. 2.2.3
        Chance

        @SE, “hate f___ing” isn’t a new thing and it’s not a manosphere term.  I think that I first heard the term around 2003.  Also, the term has nothing to do with “dating down” or “slumming it”.  The term specifically relates to women whom men find to be horrible people, but are physically arousing (i.e., she could be a 10 on the looks scale, but she is insufferable).  You make it sound like the term relates to this sweeping trend of men who are intentionally seeking out unattractive, but otherwise nice, women whom they can savagely pound solely because they hate them.  I can’t think of any man who would consciously do that.

        1. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I thought hate f***ing was a term in the same general league as revenge f***ing, a motivation I’m sure does exist for both men and women.

        2. Buck25

          Chance,

          I’ve always been a little confused by that term myself. I guess my question is, if she’s that much of a totally insufferable beotch, I don’t see the point of doing her at all. I guess there might be some emotional reward for a man in dominating a woman like that in bed, but, since word is, (and my anecdotal experience confirms), that most women, most of the time, actually want that anyway, it seems like rewarding the personality, behavior, whatever, that is being complained of, and I’m not sure I see any point. Kinda like getting in a mud-wrestling contest wth a hog; even if you win, you’re filthy at the end of it, and the hog (even if a bit sore) is no worse off anyhow, and doesn’t really care.

        3. Chance

          Emily, it’s possible.  I haven’t heard the term used in that sense, but it seems plausible that it could be used in that sense.

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Chance – Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” thats YOUR bias interpretaion.  I was merely explaining the many reason a man might ask a woman other than he finds her desirable.  Please see YAGS excellent explanation at 6.1.1. …..  Since you don’t think women can be trusted with a word they say, perhpas YAGs explanation will sink in.

          I said HFing was “a thing”, not a sweeping trend.

          House fires aren’t sweeping across the nation, but they happen, so I have smoke detectors.  Home burglaries aren’t sweeping the nation, and certainly not my neighborhood, but I have deadbolts on all my doors.

          Stealing sperm from condoms isn’t a sweeping trend either, but you claim you lock your condom in a safe (when rinsing it out in the sink would be just as effective)

          I screened the men I dated, because the fact that they asked me out, didn’t necessarily mean they found me desirable for a relationship.  It could just mean they were horny, and were playing a numbers game, and they only found me “meh”.

          So glad I am out of the dating jungle now, and happily married !

        5. Chance

          @SE

           

          “Chance – Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” thats YOUR bias interpretaion”

           

          I didn’t say that you said it was a sweeping trend.

        6. KK

          Again. Excellent points, Sparkling Emerald. All true. Including the fact that he said you made it sound like a “sweeping trend”.

        7. Henriette

          @Sparkling Emerald: I didn’t realise that you’re now (again) a married woman.  Hooray!  I remember way back when you were so discouraged by all this Dating Stuff that you changed your name to Faded Jade; how times have changed!  Wishing you and Mr. SE decades of devotion and joy.  xo

        8. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Henriette – 🙂

          Thank you.  I’m trying to ween myself off of this blog, now that I am happily (and surprisingly) married, but when an e-mail from this blog shows up in my inbox with some kind words addressed to me, I like to at least acknowledge said kinds words and say thanks.

          🙂

        9. Henriette

          I hope you won’t wean yourself entirely.  We, the singletons, need to hear from those of you who moved through (what can feel like) the pain of endless dating to successfully find lasting love.

        10. SparklingEmerald

          Chants

          @SE

           

          “Chance – Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” thats YOUR bias interpretaion”

           

          I didn’t say that you said it was a sweeping trend.

          ********************************************

          Thanks for acknowledging that I never said that.  I guess you must have been hallucinating when you read my post.  I also never said “men who are intentionally seeking out unattractive, but otherwise nice, women whom they can savagely pound solely because they hate them.”  I never said that either.  I hope you have stopped hallucinating.

      4. 2.2.4
        Buck25

        Emily,

        I read with interest your response (an s well as those of SE and KK to my earlier post on “who has the power”. .

        Do note that my comments are simply descriptive of observed behaviors (online and elsewhere) . I’m not rendering any judgment on the perceptions (on the part of either gender) related to any of this behavior. I’m simply describing the realities of the marketplace.. Whether anyone Male or female) is “irritated” at any of this, is beside the point. Where you get the idea that I’m suggesting me should be “irritated” or “angry” that a woman of (of equivalent age and SMV) can’t get more results online with less work than a a man, I don’t know; I neither said that, nor implied it. One more time, the observations, (as are my others)  is simply descriptive of observed reality in that particular environment. I had to laugh at the comment that maybe we ” men should organize or something…”; I remember saying something similar to a male poster a while back who came here all upset about this;  something along the lines of “Yeah, let’s all form a union, and go on strike until women change! That’ll show ’em!” I thought my sarcasm in that was pretty evident. Maybe not.  It makes no difference anyway, as there are ways and means of working around this and other difficulties; the man who puts those into full use and continues to refine the process, can level the playing field quite a bit, albeit with extra work’ No more use complaining that is needed, than there  is in being upset because a cloud drifted over the sun. The reality (as Evan has frequently observed here, is neither good nor bad, it simply IS.

        I am going to take issue with your comment about reading signs and avoiding rejection (real world only; when making first contact online there are not any “signs ” to read, most of the time). Most of us, after some dating experience, can read a woman’s “indicators of interest” reasonably well, most of the time. Same goes for her indicators of obvious disinterest. In practice however, we encounter a large number of a third group of women who show us neither…for a very good reason; they’re not sure whether they’re interested in us or not, until we approach and attempt to talk with them. There are a lot of great opportunities within that “neutral group” who aren’t “just dying to meet us”, but don’t reject us out of hand either. I’ve pulled a lot of dates from that group. There is  of course, risk of rejection here, but it’s a lot less than there is in trying to pick up that “haughty hottie” who is looking clearly disinterested, just for the challenge of doing so; that last is a low reward strategy that’s rarely if ever worth the effort in the first place. In short, I don’t think most of us can, (unless we’re really going for low-hanging fruit), “rejection proof” ourselves. Rejection is simply a part of the process of becoming more skilled and relaxed in approaching women, period. It’s a man’s price of admission to the game. From a selfish point of view (and in the beginning, that is where most of us ,whether male or female, are coming from,) it simply doesn’t matter to a woman how a man feels about rejection, nor should it; not part of her agenda.  Of course, same goes for how you feel about men unabashedly chasing sex first, when your primary goal is a relationship; not on our agenda, at least, not yet. See how easy that is?

        1. KK

          Buck25,

          FWIW, I enjoy most of your comments and your point of view. Your generation of men are a different breed. I’m not referring to 50s culture. I’m referring to the men. The role of loyal provider / protector was taken seriously. Younger men could benefit from learning a thing or two from you. JM2C.

        2. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          I had to laugh at the comment that maybe we ” men should organize or something…”;

          I meant that as a joke.

           

          When making first contact online there are not any “signs ” to read, most of the time).

          I think the only “signs” in online dating would be the descriptors of what a woman is looking for. What she writes in her profile. If a man doesn’t match those descriptors, he is ignoring the signs.

          In practice however, we encounter a large number of a third group of women who show us neither…for a very good reason; they’re not sure whether they’re interested in us or not, until we approach and attempt to talk with them.

          If you think a woman is interested, what does she do? If you’re out at a bar, does she try to catch your eye and smile at you? Plant herself near you so you can approach? Maybe even walk over and introduce herself? Those would be, I believe, signs of interest. How do you know to approach a woman who’s neither interested nor disinterested? What is she doing that would indicate that? (I’m not being sarcastic. Just curious.)

          In a different situation — say you get introduced through a friend at a party — a man who is being polite and friendly with me but giving off no vibe (for lack of a better term) is someone  I assume is not interested. Is that what you mean by neutral? No vibe?

          There is  of course, risk of rejection here, but it’s a lot less than there is in trying to pick up that “haughty hottie” who is looking clearly disinterested, just for the challenge of doing so; that last is a low reward strategy that’s rarely if ever worth the effort in the first place.

          Why would a man want to bother with a woman who’s clearly disinterested? If she’s showing disinterest, she probably wants to be left alone.

          In short, I don’t think most of us can, (unless we’re really going for low-hanging fruit), “rejection proof” ourselves.

          Yes I acknowledged there is no way to avoid rejection, just ways to minimize it.

           Of course, same goes for how you feel about men unabashedly chasing sex first, when your primary goal is a relationship; not on our agenda, at least, not yet. See how easy that is?

          I’m not always looking for a relationship, and I actually respect a man who makes it clear he’s just looking for sex. Then I know exactly what to expect.

        3. Buck25

          KK,

          Thanks, but honestly, we’re a dying breed. It’s not so much what we tried to teach the ones coming up behind us. My generation of men were shaped by different forces and different times. A lot of it can’t be replicated in your world, and that’s probably just as well; we’re the product of some pretty harsh circumstances, you know. We grew up with different values, a different social order, where we were held to a different standard of personal accountability. We learned chivalry, because,, well, there wasn’t anything else.

          We were a big generation, numbers-wise; so there was a lot of competition, and not too much feel-good consolation for the losers; there wasn’t any “everybody wins” for us. We had  a military far larger and much different from the one succeeding generations know, and a lot of us served in it, whether we wanted to or not. Conscription was a fact of life. That was reality. Many of us learned discipline and leadership there, often the hard way; by today’s standards, it could be (and usually was), pretty brutal. Most of the punishments we routinely faced have been outlawed today.

          We were taught not to show much emotion, and to keep our feelings to ourselves. Those who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) were derisively referred to as “she”. Our heroes were John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Audie Murphy. We learned early that if we talked the talk, we better be able to back it up, or else. It was a pretty rough, but very efficient way to learn not to let our mouths write checks the rest of us couldn’t cash.

          We’re anachronisms now; here out on the far older end of the dating spectrum, trying to remain relevant somehow where there are fewer every day to care whether we are, or not. Those of us still trying would just (in the words of Jimmy Buffett), “‘rather die while I’m living than live while I’m dead”. I don’t know how much we could say to the younger guys they’d even care to hear; I get the feeling a lot of them want us to just get out of their way, and pass into history, as we all will before too long. Other than that, you know us old men love to give good advice; it’s about the only recompense se we get for no longer getting many chances to set a bad example.

        4. Tom10

          @ Buck25
          “I don’t know how much we could say to the younger guys they’d even care to hear; I get the feeling a lot of them want us to just get out of their way, and pass into history, as we all will before too long.”
           
          Ah I also enjoy your posts Buck, but I don’t us young kids are as different as you might think; I recognise in your writing many of the same dilemmas that you had to negotiate in your time.
           
          I’m actually chuckling away here reading your post as it reminds me of the scene in Shawshank Redemption when old Brooksy Hatlen emerges from 50 years in the slammer into a fast-paced world into which he can’t keep up, so he just gives up.
           
          I’ve a quick question Buck; you eloquently outlined the harsh realities of how life was in the “old days”, yet seem to somehow simultaneously lament some of the characteristics of that time that have now been lost.
           
          My question is: what are the positive aspects from your time that you think us (young men in particular) might do well to re-establish? And why, in your opinion, have such behaviors disappeared from the dating scene if they were so good to begin with?

        5. Buck25

          Tom,

          I’ll try to, bearing in mind of course that things were and are a little different on your side of the pond, just as they were back in the time when your grandparents were observing that  “The Yanks are overpaid, oversexed and over here!” Some of my observations will apply differently , or not at all, given some of the differences, but most of the broader scope might have some application.

          One of the biggest things your generation needs to get back to is the concept of chivalry, as it applies to how to treat women.  I don’t know the exact state of that in Britain, but here at least, both what we considered to be manners, and the idea of chivalry in courting, have gone by the boards with much of the younger set.  In fairness, when I was in my younger days, it’wasn’t because we were any more noble, but  (1) we didn’t know any better, (2) it really didn’t occur to us to ask, and (3) our girls (for the most part anyway) couldn’t have paid for dates IF they had found the practice acceptable, since they didn’t have the income equality there is now. My suggestion to the younger guys on that: at least be willing to compromise, understand it’s part of the dating game, and just try to be cool about it, The manners part is a lot easier. Some of you (take this as it applies) seriously need to consult an etiquette book, and learn. I can appreciate the informality of modernity and all that, but there are some limits and there’s no excuse for acting as if you were raised in a barn and know no better. Just know that manners always give you an edge with women (they’re a bit more sensitive to those niceties than we tend to be.)

          Another thing I see a lot is a lack of self-discipline. This is just something that serves you well in every stage  and area of life. For some reason, (over here anyway) it’s non-existent, especially among Millennials. Again, where it applies, it’s a habit well-worth cultivating, and you have fewer opportunities to have it force-fed to you like we did.

          For heaven’s sake, LEARN HOW TO LOSE, then get up and get back in the game! Too much new age “don’t let little Johnny get his little ego hurt” has led to to many young men whose self-esteem can’t take a blow, absorb it, and move on. They have no resilience, having always been told that they “didn’t fail” or “didn’t lose” as kids, when that’s exactly what they did. I’ll be blunt; that is piss poor preparation for an adult man’s world, where losing and failure have real consequences. I’m not suggesting bringing boys up as the Spartans did (you’d kill half of them) but I don’t suggest new age mollycoddling, either. There’s a middle ground, somewhere. Boys, especially, need to learn early that it’s ok to lose, ok to fail; what’s not ok, is lying on the ground crying about it, not learning from the experience,  and even worse, refusing to even try unless the win is guaranteed. Of course losing sucks; did for us too; we learned to try to do better the next time (and unless it kills you, there is always a next time).

          Closely related, there is a saying in the military (I’m sure HM’s forces have an equivalent) “The effective range of an excuse is exactly ZERO meters!”A/K/A, you screw up, you own it.In simple terms you are accountable for what you control, period.  Some younger guys want to pass the excuses and pass the blame, when things don’t go right. Where this applies in dating is, looking to blame women, or your date, for problems you created, or the results you didn’t get, whether because you didn’t know better, you were inept, or you weren’t paying attention. It does not greatly matter, that a girl’s attitude or behavior downright sucked, if you also contributed to whatever the unfortunate result is. You own your part of it, regardless. Figure out what that was, own it, deal with it, and learn from it. Somehow, most of us learned we could still be ok with our selves, without  either quitting, or having low standards for our own conduct, and a higher one for everyone else’s. That’s backwards.

          Last but not least, leadership, loyalty, and trust. I see a lot of lack of all the above in younger men, and it’s one of the things KK was talking about. A lot of us learned a lot of that in a place I sincerely hope you never have to-on a battlefield. You do not survive in combat without those, so it’s pretty enduring lesson. Most of you will have to find other ways; learn it in sports (working as a team is pretty good training for that) learn it any way you can; study the example of others if that’s all you’ve got. Just learn it. Above all, whatever your role is, be the guy everyone around you can count on, not just when it’s easy, but especially when it’s hard. If you cannot learn to put your trust and loyalty with your teammates, 100%, if you cannot trust your subordinates when you lead, or your leadership can’t trust you, you won’t be a very good teammate,  and chances are good you will be a lousy date, a worse relationship partner, and a failure as a husband to any woman worth her salt.

          Again, Tom, you can’t recreate the circumstances that taught us our way, nor should you really want to.There are other ways, and I hope I’ve pointed you toward some of them.. There are some things you most likely don’t want to emulate. Having emotional control is one thing; ending up as emotionally numb, rigid and and unable to express what you feel, as a lot of us did, is not the best thing in the world and will catch up with you eventually. You want to be able to communicate, and in dating and relationships, you’ll need to. Try to get a little of the best of both worlds here.

          One final thought, most of our dating woes have less to do with inability to adapt to this new century, than to the fact we’re all simply aging out of the process You’ll get there too one day, when your own race is run. If you’ve taken care of yourself, you won’t feel old, but you will be old. You’ll like its about as much as I do, I expect; none of us like to feel that we’re ready for the scrap heap. Chances are, by then you may feel a little like an anachronism too, and you just might be. The social pendulum is aways in motion, trying to correct itself; who knows which way it will swing next?

        6. Tom10

          @ Buck25
          Thanks for your well thought out response.
           
          “your grandparents were observing that  “The Yanks are overpaid, oversexed and over here!”
           
          Lol.
           
          “both what we considered to be manners, and the idea of chivalry in courting, have gone by the boards with much of the younger set”

          Yes, I think this is a big difference between the generations; chivalry is becoming, for better or for worse, an increasingly antiquated practice.
           
          However, I think this is due – in part, or largely because of – women now simply earning their own money. As women now have no necessity to consider a potential mate’s provisioning ability they’re free to prioritize chemistry and attraction when selecting a prospective mate.
           
          But as a result, young men now better rewarded by, and thus motivated by, spending their time and energy in the gym, hair salon and clothes store improving their appearance, rather than bringing women to nice restaurants.
           
          So I think it’s unfair to blame this development on young men. Or young women; it’s just the way society has gone.
           
          Is this progress? I think, on balance, that yes it is. Women having the independence to choose their partners according to their own preferences from a position of freedom, rather than forced necessity, can only be a good thing.
           
          Regarding manners I agree that good manners are a noble concept and ought to be a universally practiced behavior applicable to every generation.
           
          “Another thing I see a lot is a lack of self-discipline. This is just something that serves you well in every stage  and area of life. For some reason, (over here anyway) it’s non-existent, especially among Millennials”
           
          Good point. Perhaps the pendulum has indeed swung too far from the stringent conformist social disciplinarianism of previous generations to lack of self-discipline now.  
           
          “For heaven’s sake, LEARN HOW TO LOSE, then get up and get back in the game!“
           
          Another good point. I believe it is extremely important for all young people – both male and female – to learn how to lose and to develop adequate coping mechanisms, as losing is simply a part of life. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
           
          The pressure to succeed, both academically and professionally, is now so intense that sudden failure – when one has only known success – can lead to lead to catastrophic consequences.
           
          “Last but not least, leadership,”
           
          Hmm. I’m not really convinced by this. I know a lot of your generation believe that men should learn how to be leaders, providers, protectors etc simply because they were born male; however, I don’t necessarily believe in inherently defined roles simply due to one’s gender.
           
          I think some men are cut out to be leaders, as are some women, and some aren’t. I think some men are cut out to be providers, as are some women, and some aren’t.
           
          I see no nobility in the traditional gender constructs; I strive for a genderless individualistic utopia where each man and woman is free to adopt any roles they choose with no fear of societal sanction. Your politics may differ.
           
          “loyalty, and trust.”
           
          Okay.
           
          “we’re all simply aging out of the process You’ll get there too one day, when your own race is run.”
           
          Lol, I can feel the breath of Fr. Time upon my body already Buck – an inevitable consequence of a decade of unadulterated debauchery.
           
          “The social pendulum is aways in motion, trying to correct itself; who knows which way it will swing next?”
           
          Events, dear Buck, events.
           
          I guess one can only surmise that the already observable trends of recent years will continue unabated, until something happens to changes the course back the other way once again.
           
          —————————-
           
          For what it’s worth I believe there have been some significant improvements that younger generations have made that I believe older folk might learn something from, and I hope you don’t mind me pointing out:
           
          Undefined gender roles
          I know much of your generation bristles at the thought of treating men and women as genderless individuals devoid of defined roles; however, as already noted, I find the concept glorious. The freedom to be whatever you want, to do whatever you want – with no-one else caring is my idea of social utopia. 
           
          Lack of judgement
          In my opinion, young people (under say, 35) are now far, far more accepting, on average, of sexual orientation, taboos, behaviors and quirks than older generations. Promiscuity, both male and female, is now so commonplace that it’s boring. Indeed, so far as the pendulum swung that nothing – I mean nothing – can shock me anymore. Lol.
           
          Understanding of sexuality
          I’m sure people who’ve been having sex longer than I’ve been alive will laugh at the idea of young people understanding sexuality better than them, however, my opinion is that we have a deeper understanding of human sexuality than our predecessors due to the fact that we’ve been raised to see and experience sexuality free from stigma, shame or through the lens of antediluvian religious doctrine: we see it simply as a natural part of life and therefore have no societal hang-ups that we have to cast off.
           
          So, on balance, which generation has things more right? As Sparkling Emerald once eloquently noted; if the good ol’ days were actually all that good, then things wouldn’t have changed. 😉

        7. KK

          Excellent commentary, Buck!  😊

        8. SparklingEmerald

          Awwwww, T10, you remember something I posted from over 2 years ago, I feel honored.

        9. Buck25

          Tom,

          I do have a few points I’d like to share with you in response to your last reply.

          First, with regard to chivalry in dating, the point (at least on the American side of the pond) is less about  demonstrating a man’s provisioning capabilities (here, I agree that women are increasingly less concerned with that, per se, for the reasons you outlined.), than about showing a certain level of investment in a woman in the courting process. It seems to be more about the spirit of the thing, than how much is spent; it says to them that they are valued, which seems to be sufficient for most of them.. In that light, it seems not to be such a terribly onerous thing to ask, and I’m inclined to go along with the custom in that spirit. Of course, extravagant demands, where made, fall outside that category, and I believe we are within our right to draw our own conclusions as to what we believe those represent.

          On the matter of leadership, first of all, leaders are not born, they are made. This implies of course that the basic ingredients are there in the first place, These are of course, not present in anyone solely because he is male, any more than they are necessarily absent in anyone who happens to have been born female. That said, leadership is, and I expect will remain, largely a hallmark of masculine energy, as, like it or not,  it is more commonly associated with more masculine personality types, “plumbing”notwithstanding. I still believe, and I don’t think many on the distaff side here will dispute it, that most women still find leadership qualities, to include the requisite courage, accountability, responsibility, and competence, attractive in a man, and are generally less attracted to those males lacking same. Alpha (read masculine energy) traits are still more attractive in a man than beta (read feminine energy) traits are to most (though emphatically not all) women. There is ample evidence of this, on this blog and elsewhere. Further, gender role neutral or not, it remains my experience, and that of a good many younger men as well, that more women than not prefer and expect leadership from men on some level in the dating process, in relationships, and in marriage. This emphatically does not mean controlling them; it does mean leading them, rather as we would lead a woman in a waltz. That most women want to see a little leadership and initiative from us in life and in the bedroom as well, is something I thought,  and still think, not really a point in question, even among ardent feminists. Ideology, it appears, has not yet trumped certain basic female sexual preferences in that regard (no matter how much certain ideologically motivated men and women might wish it had). Don’t get me wrong here, anybody can think, be, or act as he/she pleases; however, in the dating world there are still consequences for those choices, and while we can argue whether or not there ought to be, those consequences still are quite real, at least, over here. It appears to me that for now, your utopian world of totally undefined gender roles  is not quite the prevailing reality you might wish it were.

          I will grant that younger generations are  (at least in some respects), more tolerant and less judgmental of alternative lifestyles, behaviors, and so on. In most instances, I am quite happy to see this. My own generation is not quite so intolerant on many of these issues as you might believe (at least the more intelligent ones are not). That said, not every social standard that got thrown out during that social revolution known as the sixties and seventies needed to be; there was and has been a certain amount of throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Some of this is still being sorted out yet, and while in general, more tolerance is a good thing, we can argue  just how much of that needs to be accorded to behavior that is frankly destructive (extreme promiscuity, a rise in fatherlessness, the spread of std’s, and so on). Nothing shocks me much anymore either, Tom; the question is, how much do we tolerate, if the behavior is to the detriment of social order, public health, and promotes a general coarsening of popular culture.? Repression, I will  concede, is generally a bad idea; completely unrestrained hedonism of the ” absolutely anything goes” variety  seems an equally bad one to me. We experimented with that, quite a bit, back in the seventies, something I’ll get to in a moment.

          Last, sexuality. I hate to break this news to you, but the more adventurous part of my generation did a petty fair job of destroying those antediluvian religious values you speak of, at least among ourselves. You don’t remember the seventies. I lived it, and let me tell you, there isn’t anything under the sun today that wasn’t going on then, and in considerable quantity (and with not a whole lot of angst, either.) Between the pill, IUD’s and broad spectrum antibiotics, it was a zero-threat environment (or so we thought), and the majority happily jumped in with complete abandon. Before the knowledge of things like AIDS and herpes slowed everyone down a bit, there was a decade or so of widespread and rather shameless debauchery that would do credit to the most adventurous souls of your own generation. I don’t know about all the “Free Love” sloganeering that was the mantra of those days, but there was one helluva lot of unrestrained free sex, and most of us participated therein, in ways that might come close to shocking you. Threesomes, foursomes, orgies, wife-swapping, BDSM – and that was the milder part of it; if anything was totally “off-limits” I’m not sure what it might have been. I don’t know about “shedding societal hang-ups”; what I do know, is after losing my religion in Vietnam, and coming home to a society that was less than appreciative,  I basically gave organized religion in particular, and society in general, the “dirty digit” fully extended, and invited them to do something with themselves that I’m not going to repeat here, all the while living as I saw fit for a while. It was not an uncommon attitude at the time. So Tom, just believe me when I tell you, that however bizarre it seems, your generation really didn’t invent any of the sexuality you know and practice today; a lot of it is relatively innocuous compared to what we did back then., lol!

      5. 2.2.5
        Tron Swanson

        KK,

        Wow, that’s awfully insulting. But I suppose you don’t care. Which of us is supposed to be more hateful, again? Because, based on my posts versus your posts, well…

        I will say this, though: you’re absolutely right about how we aren’t contributing anything to society. In my own case, society has never shown much interest in me, so I don’t see any point in showing interest in it.

        Also, for the record, I think that society is rigged against both men and women, but in different ways.

        1. KK

          Tron,

          If those things don’t apply to you, there’s no reason to be insulted. But please don’t play the innocent card with me. If you don’t call women filthy names and insult them, that’s great. Your club does. If you’re okay with that, you’re no better than them.

        2. Tron Swanson

          I didn’t know that I belonged to a club. In my view, any man that chooses to make women less of a priority–despite being sexually attracted to them–is MGTOW. That will range all the way from vocal, angry men to carefree men that have never heard of the term and are simply living their lives. From serial daters to men that try not to interact with women at all.

          As for what I’m okay with…I’m pretty much agnostic on that subject. There are more than enough women and men who worry about women’s well-being. That issue is the subject of articles, seminars, all kinds of stuff. I think I’ll stick to worrying about men’s well-being, because that sort of thing gets much less attention. You take care of your problems, and I’ll take care of mine.

      6. 2.2.6
        Shaukat

        Take some reading comprehension classes will you.  I said nothing about “sweeping trends” that’s YOUR bias interpretation

        SE, while you didn’t use the word ‘trend,’ you did imply it with this statement:

        So no, if a woman has been asked out by a man, he could find her desirable, he could find her “meh”, or he could regard her as a piece of garbage good for nothing but a “hate f—“. 

        By lumping in the phenomena of ‘hate f–” with the other two possibilities, you seemed to be suggesting that when a man asks out a woman there is an equal probability that he might be motivated by genuine romantic interest, the drive for casual sex, or a propensity to hate f–. You seem to base this hypothesis on the info you read on some obscure male websites.

        Again, I think this is ludicrous on its face. The idea that a large number of men would ask out women they’re not really attracted to just to punish them with a hate f– is absurd and encroaches on loony tune territory. Men will date women just for sex, of course, but that’s different from hate f—.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Shaukat – I didn’t “lump” reasons together to say they happened in equal numbers, who does that anyway.  I “lumped” them together as possible reason OTHER than desirability men ask women out.  Most people consider the LAST item on any list, to be the least important or incidental.  If I said house fires could be caused by faulty wiring, unattended candles, smoking in bed or arson, would you think I was saying that arsonists were sweeping across society ?

          But since you and Chance either have reading comprehension problems, or are deliberately trying to assign sinister meanings to my post, let me set the record straight, I think HF is a thing,  but not sweeping.

          I do think askinf out “Meh” women due to extreme horniness is rather prevalant though, and it is what men instruct other men to do in the manosphere.  To keep lowering their standards until they find a willing one night stand.

          YAG did a pretty good job of explaining how men look for “low hanging fruit”.  To consider a woman “low hanging fruit” is not to consider her desirable.

          Even EMK says men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex.

          So no, the ORIGINAL point I was trying to refute is that a woman KNOWS she is desirable to a particular man, simply because a man as asked her out.  She doesn’t know that, because men ask out women they feel “meh” about all the time.

           

        2. Shaukat

          @SE

          My reading comprehension is fine. I think the issue might have to do with the fact that you’re using the term hate f– in a way that differs from how it’s conventionally used. Moreover, regarding your analogy, it would make sense to lump in arson with those other potential causes because the former does take place with a high enough frequency to seriously consider it as the causal factor when a fire breaks out. I’ll reiterate that the number of men asking women out on dates to hate f– them is close to zero, if you go by the traditional definition of the term.

          Regarding ONS, I’m not sure what YAG meant by ‘low-hanging fruit,’ but in this context it does not at all necessarily imply that a man is lowering his standards. A woman can be highly desirable and yet be considered ‘low hanging fruit’ by a man looking for casual sex because it might be fairly obvious to him that she’s also just looking for a ONS. Attractive women also engage in NSA sex, in case you weren’t aware. And even if a man asks out a woman when he’s just ‘meh’ about her (and it’s important to note that many women allow men to court them even though they just feel ‘meh’ about them as well) it doesn’t mean that they consider such women to be ‘garbage,’ as you stated in your initial post. They often still respect them, enjoy their company, but just don’t want a relationship with her.

    3. 2.3
      Adreana

      Bob- it depends on whether you are talking about hooking up or dating/ LTR.

      If all a woman wants is casual sex- all she has to do is look approachable, be decent-looking enough and go to the bar/club. But if she wants a boyfriend she absolutely has to charm and pass his tests ( which may be done unconsciously)…exp: she needs to be sweet without being mothering, sexy but classy, playful but puts him in his place when he crosses her boundaries…etc.

      Mind you, I am not talking about a man who’s very lonely/desperate  and would be happy with any cute woman who could keep him company. I am talking about men who want something more (and perhaps already know a few women who are vying for their attention).

      1. 2.3.1
        Emily, the original

        Adreana,

        In terms of casual sex, you’ve heard that joke about a woman just needing a hole and a heartbeat  🙂

        1. Adreana

          LMAO!

  3. 3
    AndyK

    One thing I see again and again is that women want confident men. As a man I think I’d do very poorly in the dating scene if I was openly insecure about my looks. Men are also generally terrible at giving each other compliments in my experience, especially when it comes to looks. Your average guy doesn’t get many compliments from women either. I am also wondering if part of this inflated self image  is a coping mechanism to handle rejection. It’s much easier to consider if a case of the eye of the beholder and move on after a failed approach.

    When it comes to women I suspect that the ones very confident about their looks get put down by both genders for various reasons. Though I can testify that having to constantly reassure a partner about her looks gets old quickly as well.

    1. 3.1
      Adrian

      Hi AndyK,

      You stated, “As a man I think I’d do very poorly in the dating scene if I was openly insecure about my looks.

      What a very thought provoking statement.

      Women constantly say they want a man who is confident. The second a man starts to show any insecurity he is labeled a beta, or a “nice guy.”

      I wonder: if a woman in a new relationship seeks comfort by asking her guy if she is fat or not that attractive most guys would automatically try to dissuade her negative believes and then move on, but I wonder if a man did this to a woman in a new relationship, how many women would start to lose attraction for the guy. I base this thought on all that I have read by women (even on this site) about losing attraction for a guy if she starts to show any insecurity.

      Not to make this a gender thing but on this specific subject I can’t help but wonder if a guy acted human in a new relationship how many women would honestly not lose attraction for him.

      It is sad that some of women believe that picture up top is true.

      I can’t speak for most guys but growing up I have been rejected by women who said things like:

      You are too skinny for me

      You are too short for me” I didn’t get my growth spurt until 11th grade

      I need a guy who is bigger <talking of width> so I can feel feminine.”

      I think a man should have a flat stomach to be sexy

      I want a man whose arms are big and hard

      I need a man strong enough to lift me up or I want a man who can carry me

      Or the girls who knew I liked them but still talked about how sexy other guys bodies around me

      Damn! Such and such guy is so sexy! Especially with his shirt off!

      I would love to have a man with a nice muscular arms and chest!

       

       

      There are newer search results than the one I listed down below but I felt that this one was better because of two reasons.

      1. The majority of articles published about body image issues still talks about women, this one focuses only on men (yes we all acknowledge that women struggle with this but by including women in the article you are taking away the emphasis on the issues men face with this problem).

      2. This article unlike newer ones actually list more research studies and not just a journalist speaking about it. This is important because most women will most likely react by just say, “well yeah but women face this problem more!”

      And  that is not the point, the point is that both genders face this problem! You don’t say more women are victims of depression than men, you say both people suffer from it.

       

       

      1. 3.1.1
        AndyK

        Even that article makes a point of saying “women have it worse”. I don’t understand why these things have to be zero sum games.

        One of my colleagues has a calendar with swimsuit models in his area. At first I thought this was a bit off. I then realised that the women in my workplace frequently talk about male celebrities and how hot they are and how they would totally sex them. Why would one be offensive and not the other? It’s not like they’re talking about tiny men with a weight problem.

        I’m generally accepting of my body but it is in spite of knowing that there are MANY improvements that can be made to conform better with expectations. Some only need hard work, some would require surgery. I’m not going to make a list because it’d seem way more negative that it is, haha.

        I don’t want to live in a society where we can’t look at good looking men and women and acknowledge them for what they have. It’d be the thought police next. The problems come when it leads to people being misguided on what’s “normal” and “healthy” .

        1. KK

          “Even that article makes a point of saying “women have it worse”. I don’t understand why these things have to be zero sum games”.

          Hi AndyK,

          Is it possible you only want to acknowledge areas where men have it worse? Most of the female commenters here are very generous in acknowledging those areas.

        2. AndyK

          Hi KK,

          I was referring to where Adrian was saying in his numbered list that the other articles he found were also mentioning about women’s body image and I was noting the linked article follows the same pattern.

          I find the whole concept of “who has it worse” strange as it is extremely difficult to quantify. I know plenty areas where women have it worse than men. I also know plenty areas where my neighbours has it worse than me.

          I’ll easily admit to being a but cautious of statements from soft sciences and gender studies in particular. This is mostly due to issues with their scientific methods.

  4. 4
    BOB

    Your average guy doesn’t get many compliments from women either

    Whereas women are constantly telling each other they’re beautiful- even if they haven’t even seen each other! If you want proof, look at the comments on the site; a woman will whimper about how she’s not confident, and the other women will say “you’re beautiful!” Again, even without having seen her.

     

    I am also wondering if part of this inflated self image  is a coping mechanism to handle rejection.

    We have to cope with rejection or at least the likelihood thereof if we ask even one woman out even once. This is especially the case now that women (1) don’t need a man to financially survive, (2) are taught to be picky, (3) are naturally, evolutionally picky, and (4) are generally told to wait to marry.

    This is in contrast to the past in which women were expected to marry and be codependent with their husbands- who themselves were definitely codependent on their wives- and generally weren’t told to pursue careers.

    It’s rough for men now. We need women to have children and are expected to do everything a man was expected to do in the 1950’s.

    It’s easy for women now. A woman doesn’t need a man to have children- witness IVF and choice motherhood- and a woman is no longer bears the expectations she did in the 1950’s.

    1. 4.1
      Stacy2

      Yeah it’s a fucking walk in the park for women these days. Be a breadwinner and a human petri dish pumped with hormones for the IVF and then be a single parent. What a treat. What could possibly make it better? Oh I know, adding a whiny useless husband with no real income to this equation.

      1. 4.1.1
        Bob

        That’s what matriarchy looks like!

      2. 4.1.2
        Just saying

        You sound very bitter…………..

    2. 4.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      So you want to return to the days where women were “expected” to marry?  Why?  What is so good for men in the equation when women have to marry?  What would you rather hear from your wife?  “I married you because I had to”, or “I married you because I wanted to.”

      As far as for women “being told to pursue careers” that’s a nifty little manosphere trope.  Have you looked into what has happened to wages, benefits, and the economy since the 1970s?  It now takes two incomes to support a middle class lifestyle for the majority of families.  Women have to work.  It’s a fact of life.

      And being “told to wait to marry”?  Hell yes!  The divorce rates are highest for people who marry in their early 20s.  College educated women who wait to marry until their 30s are way less likely to divorce.  Maybe because these marriages are highly co-dependent (not your fantasy of what a 1950’s marriage was like) where breadwinning, household chores, and childrearing are shared between spouses instead of being divided up along gender lines.

      1. 4.2.1
        Buck25

        GWTF,

        All I can say to that, is I lived through the fifties (the real fifties, not the current romanticized version.)  Idyllic it was not. I saw among my parents’ friends many a couple where the woman married some hapless beta drone of a guy, not because she really wanted to, but because she pretty much had to marry somebody. They spent the rest of their lives hating, nagging and resenting those men for not being the fairy tale prince they though they were supposed to get. Those marriages were hellish affairs, and divorce was not the easy option it is today.  About the only thing I can say is that after observing those spineless, gutless, beaten-down, henpecked specimens of men, like my father and the husbands of most of my mother’s friends, cringing in abject fear of their disillusioned, hate-filled, and domineering wives, I had a very clear idea of what kind of man I definitely did not want to grow up to be! I’d love to have a time machine to transport the guys here who long for those days back there; I don’t think they would have fared too well, or liked it much, either. As for the rest of that gray, drab, boringly conformist, way over-religious and rather prudish (by modern standards) 1950’s society, if there is a hell, I guess it would look a lot like that…

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Buck,

          Exactly!  I wasn’t alive in the 1950s,but one thing I’m certain of is that the women’s movement and sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s happened because there was mass dissatisfaction with the status quo.  Yes there is a lot of fall out that both genders have to deal with, but overall more freedom to choose whether to marry or not, who to marry, and whether to end a marriage or not are good things.

  5. 5
    KK

    YAG said,

    “On the other hand, I have never dated a woman who did not seek the approval of her BFF or girlfriends”.

    Are you sure about that? I’m wondering how you would even be privy to those conversations. If a woman you’re dating tells you that her friend Sheila thinks you’re great, for instance, it doesn’t mean she sought approval from her.

    I have never sought approval from my girlfriends nor have I EVER told one of my girlfriends I didnt approve of who they were dating. Looks, personality, career… doesn’t matter. The ONLY times I have spoken up is when I felt like they were being mistreated in some way.

    1. 5.1
      Emily, the original

      KK,

      I have never sought approval from my girlfriends nor have I EVER told one of my girlfriends I didnt approve of who they were dating.

      Agreed. I’m not in high school.

    2. 5.2
      SparklingEmerald

      I don’t know what Universe you live in where women out men through a girlfriend test.  I usually keep most budding relationships under wraps untile we are established as a couple.  By then, anyone elses negative opinion is a moot point.  Many of my out of town friends didn’t know I got married until after the fact.

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

  6. 6
    Shaukat

    While men and women are undoubtedly different, that cartoon is not at all a good example of such differences.  Body image obsession, for men and women, is more the product of consumer/diet culture, advertising, and socialization, as opposed to innate differnces. I doubt either gender was focused on such issues during the middle ages, if you know what I mean.

    1. 6.1
      KK

      Hi Shaukat,

      Women wearing cosmetics and perfumes date back to ancient Egypt; well before the 476AD starting point of the middle ages.

      I absolutely agree that our current culture has greatly enhanced the obsession with body image, but I’m not willing to say there aren’t any inherent genetic aspects to it as well. Either way, whether we can agree or not as to why it’s true, most people can agree that the cartoon is true and find it to be funny.

      1. 6.1.1
        Chance

        “Either way, whether we can agree or not as to why it’s true, most people can agree that the cartoon is true and find it to be funny”

         

        I’m not sure that’s right because it all depends on perspective.  I would agree that most women find the cartoon to be true.  However, a large percentage of men out there think that women believe they are better looking than they really are.

        1. KK

          Chance,

          I find it highly unlikely that you speak for a large percentage of men. You may speak for the red pill crew, but they hardly make up a large percentage of men. Most men I know would laugh. Lighten up.

        2. Chance

          I find the cartoon to be funny, too, because there’s some tangential truth to it.  However, you aren’t considering (or, at least, acknowledging) that there are other perspectives out there when you say that most people would agree that the cartoon is true.  Go ask any 23 y/0 guy out there if he thinks that girls his age are too hard on themselves, and I think the majority of guys would say no.

           

          I would say that each sex is harder on themselves as it relates to traits that the opposite sex places a higher relative value on when considering a romantic partner.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          If we are talking about online dating (OLD), then I have to agree with Chance.   I believe that women are far less narcissistic in real life.   The attention that a woman receive via OLD can result in her developing an unrealistic sense of what is truly obtainable to her long term (it is kind of like being a single woman in a Navy town).  Guys all of ages engage in hypogamous behavior on OLD sites in order to meet their sexual needs.  The practice of going ugly early applies to OLD as well.  A man with game who wants a low-effort sex partner for the weekend will always select a woman who he sees as low-hanging fruit much in the way that a predator selects an easy kill from a pack of prey.  He will select a woman who is attractive enough for a one-night stand or sexy-on-standby status, but not attractive enough to be the woman with whom he is seen in public.  I was definitely guilty of the practice after I separated from my ex.

        4. KK

          No one is talking about OLD or 23 year olds. It’s a funny cartoon. Get over it!

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          Not to mention that most of us women have our body insecurity moments in private where men don’t see it.  They would be scared to death if they did!

        6. Chance

          My bad, KK.  I thought you were talking about most men and women since that was the tone of your blanket statement.  What specific conditions do you think this is present?

        7. KK

          Chance,

          Duh… It is about MOST men and women. If it’s that important to you, why don’t you find out who the cartoonist is and ask him / her.

          I take it you’ve never been to a comedy club. If so, did you only laugh at the jokes aimed at women? Could you not find the humor at the jokes aimed at men as well? Did you dissect and analyze everything that was said or do you actually have a sense of humor?

          The funniest / most successful comedians are successful simply because they point out the absurdity of real life situations.

          Did you see the performance on comedy central (can’t remember the comedian) where he’s waiting for his wife to get ready to go out?  He’s been waiting over an hour and when he goes in the bedroom to see how much longer it will be, she says, “not much longer. All I need to do now is get dressed”. He then goes on a hilarious tangent about women. About how over an hour ago, she said she needed to get dressed. Women get it and know it’s funny, because it’s true. Men get it and also find it funny because its true.

          A lot of us will do our hair, make up, everything we need to do, and slip our clothes on at the last minute. But we don’t always say, “it’s going to take me a while to do my hair and makeup”. We’ll say, “I need to get dressed”. Technically, it’s innacurate. It takes seconds to put an outfit on. And…. that’s the humor in it! It’s an almost universal experience.

        8. Chance

          KK, but you said no one is talking about 23-year-olds or OLD.  If your comment applies to most men and women, then it would be fair to assume that young men and women would fall under that umbrella as well as how the phenomenon may manifest in OLD, no?

        9. Chance

          Patently false, KK.  I said that a large percentage of men think that, but I didn’t say the majority.  I understand your stance, however, which is that no one individual can speak for an entire group of people except for you (since you have admitted that it is appropriate for you to conclude that most women think worse of themselves than they should and that most men would agree that the joke is true).  We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that stance and move on.

        10. SparklingEmerald

          Chance you original point was not the different people have different perspectives, you original point was to directly contradict KK’s original assertion that MOST (not all) people would find the cartoon funny by saying “I’m not sure that’s right because it all depends on perspective.  I would agree that most women find the cartoon to be true.  However, a large percentage of men out there think that women believe they are better looking than they really are.’
          You also see all butt-hurt that after you contradicted her and mansplained to her why she was wrong she didn’t back down and say you were right.

          Of course YOU believe most women are conceited because you generally distrust and dislike women.  And of course you had to contradict KK on a simple matter of a lighthearted cartoon,  because as you admitted, you only come to this blog to fight with women.

          Evan brought up the cartoon in a light hearted way.  He even put in a stereotype alert.  It was all done in the spirit of fun.  Yet the men who are acting all butt-hurt over this are berating the women for joining in with the lighthearted piece of humor that Evan brought to this blog, and not berating Evan (not that I think he should be berated), but instead scolding the women for seeing the humor.

        11. Chance

          SE, I don’t think anyone is “butt-hurt” over the cartoon.  I already said that I thought it was funny.  You quoted my original comment, and the point of that comment was to note that there are different perspectives out there.  If you don’t want to acknowledge that, then that is your choice.

        12. KK

          Thank you, Sparkling Emerald! Your response to Chance NAILED it on each and every account!

      2. 6.1.2
        KK

        No, Chance. Because neither you or I or YAG can speak for most 23 year olds or OLD users. We can each speculate and each come to different conclusions and none of us would necessarily be right or wrong. It’s about men and women, in general. That includes all age groups and types of daters. If anyone doesn’t find it funny, they’d be an outlier, in my opinion.

        Maybe you should re-read the first two sentences of this post: “Not every blog post has to explore the deep existential crisis of wanting to find lasting love in a lonely, indifferent universe. Sometimes, it just feels good to laugh”.

        1. Chance

          KK, to make sure that I understand:  you are saying that we cannot individually speak for most 23-year-olds or OLD users, but we can individually speak for entire genders.  Is that correct?  That is the message I am getting from you based on the following comments that you wrote:

           

          “The mirror cartoon is true. Lol! Most women are so hard on themselves and most men are… well… not.”

           

          and…

           

          “most people can agree that the cartoon is true and find it to be funny.”

        2. KK

          Chance,

          I get the distinct impression you like to argue with me simply for the sake of argument. That’s fine. Petty really, but fine.

          I’m pretty sure you understand exactly what I’m saying, but just to appease you this once…

          For every 23 year old you personally know that doesn’t agree with or believe the cartoon is true, I could find another 23 year old who does. Same goes for people using OLD. Same goes for any group of people you want to single out. Hell, who knows, maybe diabetics as a group, would find it untrue. What exactly is your point??? The cartoon(s) simply demonstrate gender differences. Not gender differences excluding group a, b, or c. I’m sure you could argue that your red pill crew disagrees. That doesn’t make it any less true. It’s possible that extreme feminists would be offended by the comedy act I alluded to earlier. Doesn’t make it less true.

          So, to answer your question simply…. yes, I can speak to the differences between the genders. I do so confidently. I know, without a doubt, that the differences I see in the world around me are different than the differences you see. I know that my perception is much more accurate than yours because I don’t carry the same baggage and bitterness you do, at least in judging by many of your comments, regarding the opposite sex.

          Done now?

        3. Chance

          “For every 23 year old you personally know that doesn’t agree with or believe the cartoon is true, I could find another 23 year old who does. Same goes for people using OLD. Same goes for any group of people you want to single out.”

           

          KK, you just inadvertently agreed with my original point:  that people have different perspectives.  We can agree after all, see?

        4. Shaukat

          Hi KK,

          To be clear, I have no problem with a cartoon and it doesn’t bother me at all if people find it funny. I don’t really find it all that funny, but only because my sense of humor is a bit on the raunchy side.

          I was simply addressing the political/social message that the joke was conveying. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to laugh at a joke while also dissecting it’s underlying message and assumptions. To that end, I agree that men and women have been decorating themselves with ornaments back when human were organized in tribes, but the obsession with beauty and body image is in fact fairly recent, and it is correlated with the rise of the beauty industry. Also, I think the message is a little dated-many young men are now a days just as obsessed with body image as women.

          GWTF,

          Thanks for the link. It was an interesting piece, but I lost interest when it started speculating that intellectual achievement was linked to body structure, while neglecting all the environmental factors which we know impacts IQ and academic achievement. Also, Psychology Today is not a peer-reviewed publication, and I haven’t checked the underlying studies.

          Chance,

          You make a good point about perception. I would argue that most attractive women, when they do have an insecure moment, generally have it in private, which does not contaminate their public persona. Many do likely have an inflated image.

           

        5. KK

          Chance,

          Lol! I did not inadvertently agree with your original point. You said, “However, a large percentage of men out there think that women believe they are better looking than they really are”.

          I call BS!

          The cartoon is true. Get over yourself.

          Most women are very hard on themselves. The minority of truly, narcissistic (or delusional about their appearance) women you may encounter are just that… in the minority. It is also true that most men are overly generous in their perception of themselves. Not all, but most.

          Likewise, if someone were to make a cartoon poking fun at 23 year olds, what would it look like? Possibly, a group of them staring at their I-phones… or texting each other even though they’re in the same room. It’s a stereotype. It’s funny because it’s true. Could we find a group of 23 year olds that it doesn’t apply to? Yep. Doesn’t change anything.

          I think the joke was lost on you. I will go so far as to say that ANY joke poking fun at men would be lost on you. You don’t care to admit to any flaws; regardless of how superfluous, regardless of how true. I get it.

        6. Chance

          KK, lots of noise coming from you, but the fact remains that you agree with my original point, which is that people have different perspectives that form their unique views.

        7. KK

          Again, Chance, that was not your original point. Your original point was saying what YOU think the majority of men think.

           

        8. KK

          Shaukat,

          “I would argue that most attractive women, when they do have an insecure moment, generally have it in private, which does not contaminate their public persona”.

          Agreed. But let’s not dismiss the dozens of actresses and models who have spoken out over the years about their own struggles with trying to maintain an unrealistic body image.

          “Many do likely have an inflated image”. 

          How have you come to this conclusion?

          “I was simply addressing the political/social message that the joke was conveying. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to laugh at a joke while also dissecting it’s underlying message and assumptions”.

          Of course, it’s perfectly acceptable. It also completely ruins the joke. Lol.

           

        9. Chance

          Patently false, KK.  I said that a large percentage of men think that, but I didn’t say the majority.  I understand your stance, however, which is that no one individual can speak for an entire group of people except for you (since you have admitted that it is appropriate for you to conclude that most women think worse of themselves than they should and that most men would agree that the joke is true).  We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that stance and move on.

        10. Shaukat

          KK, I came to that conclusion the same way you arrived at your conclusion that in general women are hard on themselves while men are…not. Through anecdotal evidence and a series of real life observations.

        11. Chance

          KK, as it relates to your linked study:  I want to make sure I understand your stance.  Are you saying that women rate themselves lower than they should in the looks department, while men rate themselves higher than they should (as would be indicated by the cartoon), or are you saying that women are simply more self-conscious about their appearance than men?  Or both?  I ask because, while these two stances may appear to be similar, they are actually quite different.

           

          If you are only saying that women are more self-conscious about their looks, then I would agree with that.  I don’t think there’s any question that women are more concerned with, and have more invested in, their appearance than men.  As the study illustrated, women are much more likely to seek validation on their appearance by uploading photos of themselves to social media (hence, the social media sharing epidemic among females).  If you mean that women are harder on themselves in that they care more about their appearance than men, then I would agree (this is what I meant when I said the cartoon had some tangential truth to it).  However, men do care about their appearance more than they let on.

           

          That said, the cartoon actually indicates that men and women have very different images of themselves.  More specifically, the cartoon indicates that women think they are uglier than they are, while men think that they are better looking than they are.  This is where I think a lot of men would disagree.  I don’t think that men believe they are better looking than they actually are any more so than women.  However, I do think that men are less likely to care if they aren’t looking good than women.

        12. Shaukat

          KK, a few points:

          1). I did not say that the majority of women have an inflated image of themselves. I implied that some do. My initial point was simply that women’s self consciousness surrounding their body image is more the result of socialization and cultural factors than biology. In fact, the study you cited corroborates this point. Consider just this quote:

          In conclusion, girls expose more themselves to social media which seem to be the reason why they care more about the way they appear in pictures, the number of friends they have, and, most importantly, about having perfect Internet versions of themselves. They fall harder online because they’re putting themselves out there more.

          Now, unless you want to argue that women are naturally less intelligent and more superficial and have a biological drive to spend all their time posting idiotic selfies on social media, then I think you would have to stipulate to my initial point.

          2). You paint with a broad brush what you dislike as ‘red pill.’ Some of it is toxic, but some of it, specifically that area associated with self-improvement and female psychology, can be quite useful as well.

           

        13. KK

          Chance,

          I’m not sure why you insist on engaging me in conversation. You ask me questions and when I answer you say I’m making a lot of noise. There’s a solution to that you know….

          Anyhow, I thought I was pretty clear. But to reiterate, yes, the cartoon is true (not just some tangential truth) BOTH because most women are harder on themselves than they should be AND because most men think they’re more attractive than they actually are. I’m not sure why I need to interpret that for you. Surely you can look at the cartoon yourself and come to that conclusion.

          I can understand why that offends you or you disagree or however you’d like to word it. I get the sense you’re unable to laugh at yourself or your own gender. That’s unfortunate. I laugh at myself all the time. I even told you about a comedian poking fun at women that I found to be funny. I could give lots of other examples of stereotypical female behavior that’s pretty darn hilarious.

          Which brings me to my question for you. Are there ANY examples of stereotypical male behavior you can think of that you find to be true and / or funny?

        14. Chance

          KK, for the third time:  I thought the cartoon was funny.  I thought all of the cartoon stereotype examples were funny (many of which weren’t flattering of men).  I believe you mentioned that you thought almost all of the examples were true…. I’m curious as to which ones you thought weren’t true?  Please elaborate.

           

          I am also trying to wrap my mind around why you think that you can speak for entire groups of people, but others cannot.  Please elaborate.

        15. KK

          Okay Shaukat,

          KK, a few points:  1). I did not say that the majority of women have an inflated image of themselves”.
          Did I say you did??? Or are you just clarifying?
          “I implied that some do”.
          This is what you said:  “Many do likely have an inflated image”. 
          “My initial point was simply that women’s self consciousness surrounding their body image is more the result of socialization and cultural factors than biology”.
          I understood that the first time. I disagree. But I do think cultural factors have made it worse. As to the study I linked, yes, social media is a relatively new medium where we see this happening. If there were no biological differences though, boys / young men would be just as obsessed with selfies and their social media image as well. They’re not.
          “Now, unless you want to argue that women are naturally less intelligent and more superficial and have a biological drive to spend all their time posting idiotic selfies on social media, then I think you would have to stipulate to my initial point”.
          Intelligence is based on a number of factors. Mostly your parent’s DNA. I don’t believe gender is one of those factors. Are you saying if I disagree with you, all womankind is dumb? The sweeping trend of posting selfies on social media is most prevalent in teens and twenty-somethings. That doesn’t make them less intelligent. Although, I do agree it’s silly at best and narcissistic at worse.
          “2). You paint with a broad brush what you dislike as ‘red pill”.
          100% false. The only times I use that term is when I see that mindset on display here in the comment section.
          “Some of it is toxic, but some of it, specifically that area associated with self-improvement and female psychology, can be quite useful as well”.
          Everything I’ve read about it is toxic. I will readily admit I haven’t spent much time researching it. When first looking at it, reading the comparisons between ‘The Matrix’ and red pillers and stating that they are the only awakened ones and everyone else is ignorant because they haven’t taken the red pill… Honestly, it was quite a laugh and series of eye rolls. Then, as I read on about the inherent evil nature of all womankind, I thought these guys are not only dipshits but really screwed in the head. I must’ve missed the part on self improvement and female psychology. Maybe you could fill me in on what important information I must have missed.

        16. KK

          Chance,

          Maybe you missed my question:

          “Which brings me to my question for you. Are there ANY examples of stereotypical male behavior you can think of that you find to be true and / or funny”?

          I’ll answer yours after you answer mine. Fair?

        17. Chance

          KK, to answer your question for a second time:  I think the examples of stereotypical male behavior in the cartoons are funny and true.  If you want to continue to do the rope-a-dope, that’s your choice.

        18. KK

          No, Chance, you didn’t answer my question. I didn’t ask your opinion on the cartoons on this post. I asked you, for the third time now, to give specific examples of male stereotypes. If you can’t or choose not to, that’s fine. But repeating something that was never asked is not answering my question.

        19. Chance

          KK, except the cartoons are about specific male and female stereotypes.  Here’s another one for you:  men are obsessed with sex… a stereotype that is quite true.

        20. KK

          Lame, Chance. Why not just say the sky is blue? If I were a teacher and that was an essay question, I’d give you an F. Lol.

          Since you’ve chosen not to answer the question: Examples, plural… Not related to the cartoon… The first one which has been discussed in petty detail, which you also poo-pooed with “some tangential truth” and a large percentage of men would disagree… I’ll still answer your other question AGAIN to be clear.

          You said:  “I am also trying to wrap my mind around why you think that you can speak for entire groups of people, but others cannot.  Please elaborate”.

          I was specifically comparing the two of us. I’ve already stated that clearly, but once AGAIN this is what I stated:

          “So, to answer your question simply…. yes, I can speak to the differences between the genders. I do so confidently. I know, without a doubt, that the differences I see in the world around me are different than the differences you see. I know that my perception is much more accurate than yours because I don’t carry the same baggage and bitterness you do, at least in judging by many of your comments, regarding the opposite sex”.

        21. Chance

          Yes, KK, I am aware that you were comparing the two of us with your “answer”, but that didn’t even begin to answer my original question waaay upthread.  You have been saying that we cannot speak for entire groups of people, but you have been doing the exact same thing.

           

          Also, I did answer your original question regarding stereotypes, and you know it.  You didn’t originally ask me to give examples that weren’t already noted in the cartoons…. this was a qualifier that you subsequently added when you decided that you didn’t like my answer.  You know that you’re stalling and misdirecting because you know that you can’t answer my original question without obviously looking like a hypocrite.

           

          My original intent for engaging with you on this thread was to revive my aborted experiment of seeing how long you were willing to go to get the last word, and you certainly didn’t disappoint.  I’m moving on now, but I have to say that I’ve been entertained by your continued inability to engage in “debate” without constantly insulting everyone who says things that you don’t like.  In gratitude, I will gently return the favor:  I would love to hear war stories from your ex about his tour of duty with you.  I’m thinking that we should make him one of those “I Served My Time” jackets that the Vietnam vets used to wear.

        22. KK

          As usual, 100% projection, Chance.

          Where have I insulted you on this thread? You quote red pill dialogue word for word and I simply point it out. I wasn’t aware that was an insult. The only reason you engage with me is because you’re an internet bully who wants all the women he disagrees with to concede to him. Not happening here.

          Which brings me to your intended insult… Not that it’s any of your business, but I don’t mind clarifying… my ex became an abusive asshole. He has no war stories. Unless lifting me off the ground by my throat and threatening to kill me because I had the nerve to ask a question would be considered HIS war story by someone such as yourself. No, Chance, his only war story would be that I kicked his sorry self out without any remorse because I don’t have to put up with abuse from anyone. Ever. That includes anonymous internet bullies.

          I won’t speculate in writing about your own supposed 5 year relationship. I think we can all speculate about that on our own.

        23. KK

          One other thing, Chance. I don’t think what you said would be allowed if the moderator caught it. But if you’ll notice, unlike you, I didn’t cry and whine about it, because I’m an adult. I guess you think it’s okay to borderline harass people until they tell you to piss off, then cry about it. Maybe it’s a millennial thing???

        24. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m the moderator. Honestly, I stopped reading and figured I’d let you both go at it until one or both of you stopped.

        25. KK

          I understand, Evan. I just think it’s unfortunate that a post I’m assuming was meant to generate a jovial, lighthearted conversation had to be ruined by a handful of bitter bunnies. I try to ignore certain commenters. But their lack of reading comprehension, left unchallenged, leaves incorrect and negative assertions hanging out there. Sparkling Emerald clarified more than once what her intention was. I don’t blame her for continually explaining her position. Anyway, just my two cents…

        26. Evan Marc Katz

          Welcome to my world, KK. To engage or not to engage? If you see me wading in here less often, it’s because it’s usually a waste of breath arguing with strangers who are fixed on their world view. I write the articles; you comment. I can’t do much to make anyone see things from my point of view – no matter how much I try…

        27. Shaukat

          I try to ignore certain commenters.

          I haven’t noticed that at all, actually. Just sayin:)

        28. Chance

          Shaukat, I missed that as well.

    2. 6.2
      Just saying

      Bit of a negative feedback loop. If women didn’t give a damn what others/society/media thought, media obsession with women’s looks would simply cause them to go bankrupt.

      Remember when the media, in cohoots with the fashion industry, tried to sell skirts and make-up to men ? Where did that end up ?

      For most of recorded history, women have traded on their looks, or been traded on for their looks so ot course women will obsess about that part of them on which their survivial depends.

      Ultimately, human actions and motivations all come down to pure simple survivial and instincts for survival. Media and external forces can do all the can to brainwash and indoctinate the sheep, and while they can re-enforce pyschology that is already present in humans, then simply cannot erase thousands of years of evolutionary psychology.

       

      1. 6.2.1
        Buck25

        Maybe not, but there is a whole slick media and advertising industry out there, that has  gotten very, very adept at marketing all sorts of products by helping create and reinforce, then rather aggressively and transparently marketing to, the insecurities of BOTH genders. Let’s face it, sex (and people’s anxieties about being able to get it), sells. Cynical, of course, but hey, just follow the money…

    3. 6.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      Shaukat,

      There may be a sound biological reason why women invest time, worry, and effort into their appearance.  The linked article is specifically about weight and the feminine hourglass body shape.  Think corsets, waist clinchers, bustles, and girdles throughout history.

      https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201207/eternal-curves

      1. 6.3.1
        Yet Another Guy

        However, the article also drones on about how women seek the fashion model look.  All seeking that look does is lead young women down the path to anorexia nervosa.  Most men do not like women who are built like boys.  Men read Playboy (okay, a few just gawk at the photos 🙂 ), not Vogue.

        Here is a tip.  When a man selects “slender” on a dating site, he means a woman whose waist size is smaller than her hip size and not too fluffy, not fashion model.  Men do so because “average” is now a synonym for “I have let myself go to be point where my waist size is the same size as my hip size.”  The descriptor “curvy” on dating sites is now a synonym for smaller BBW (it is often used a synonym for larger BBW and SSBBW as well).

        Personally, I will take an amply-built, truly curvy woman over an athletically-built woman any day of the week.   An amply-built, truly curvy woman looks like a woman.  She is soft and delightful to hold.  🙂

        When a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face…

        1. Yet Another Guy

          Disclaimer: I am a white boy. 🙂

        2. Stacy2

          YAG:

          In my experience, which is based on living and dating in one of the most culturally diverse cities, is that body shape preferences are strongly tied to cultural/racial preferences. Blantly put, Latin men appreciate bigger hips/ass and african american men do too, to a greater extent (see: the entire Kardashian clan marriages). But take an average white guy and he thinks you’re fat if your hips are over 34”. You may style yourself as an exception to that rule but it is true for the majority.

           

      2. 6.3.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        YAG,

        The point they made with the fashion model look is that tall women have more space between the lowest ribs and the top of the hip bone, and this lends itself to a small hip to waist ratio.  Most mainstream models–think Glamour magazine covers, SI swimsuit issue, Victoria’s Secret fashion show–have the same 0.7 hip to waist ratio that Playboy centerfolds do.  Yet models sometimes get called emaciated while centerfolds are labelled curvy.  But simply, Playboy centerfolds are essentially models who have undergone breast “enhancement” surgery.

        It’s been medically known for quite some time that weight gain around the waist and belly is more health endangering than weight gain in the hips, butt, and thighs, for both men and women.  The intra-abdominal fat is metabolically active and promotes inflammation, insulin resistance, and arterial disease.  So you could make the argument that men being attracted to women with a slender hourglass figure is a matter of them wanting, on a subconscious level, an overall healthy mate.  (And for the same reasons, women don’t find obese men attractive).

        What I find fascinating about the article is that it links men’s research studied preference for a H/W ratio of around 0.7 to the fact that women with that body type have higher levels of essential fatty acids that promote fetal brain development, than women with thicker waists or outright obesity.  When you look back in history at how women used clothing items to accentuate their body, it’s almost always used to accentuate the silhouette of a small waist and flared hips.  Corsets, waist cinders, hoop skirts, bustles, and girdles are all samples of this.  This has been going on for centuries.  So I don’t think media created a male desire for a certain female body type.  It is feeding the demand that is already there.

        Disclaimer here:  I’m not saying that this feeding of the demand is not damaging to girls, women, and society.  What I’m proposing is that it isn’t just all a media creation.  There is a reason the media and advertisers latched onto this female shape.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          P.S.–I have no idea what to put down for “body type” on my OLD profile.  Slender, toned and athletic, curvy, etc. all seems to be meaningless these days.  Instead, about half my photos are full body or near full body shots.  The guys looking can figure out for themselves what I am and whether they like it or not 😉

        2. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          My two cents on the body description verse the full body picture is this:

          My height is 5’11 with shoes off, but I always contemplate listing myself as 6’0 if I did actively try online dating.

          Because from what I have read most women set their filters to at least 6’0 in their search criteria (I know the few half dozen regulars on here say they don’t care about height, but that is not how the research says the majority of women use online dating). So if I listed my real height I would show up on a far fewer search results.

          So my point is even if you use full figure pictures, you still need to set your profile so that it appears in the majority of searches.

          I still haven’t found the motivation to actively try online dating but from what I continually read it appears that toned and athletic gets the most views by men… and women-followed by average.

          …   …   …

          P.s. Don’t quote me on this but I remember I once read a study that said that even with full body pictures men AND women don’t believe what they see if your body is on the borderline.

          I took that to mean that unless you are noticeably slender, athletic, or toned the person viewing your picture will still have doubts about your body shape.

          Because most people (men and women) choose flattering photos of themselves-face and body.

          So a guy who may appear on the heaver side of the average body type in his photo may in person be fat.

          As the commentator Karmic Equation use to say, women are simple when it comes to their attraction for men; he is either a yes, a no, or she is neutral about her attraction for him (which is why she advocated the power of courting). A guy showing up looking fat though he posted moderately average full figure photos can have himself pushed into the no territory; especially if he mislabeled his body type.

          As Karmic use to say, a neutral guy has the chance to become a yes guy but a no guy does not have a chance with that particular woman. GoWithTheFlow I feel that we men are a little simpler than that; if we want to meet than you are a “yes we are attracted to you” girl until proven to be a no girl.

          “Most” men I know of don’t have a neutral when it comes to women; so I don’t believe we can be courted into seeing a woman as a “yes I now find her attractive.”

          Contrary to the popular online belief the majority of men don’t want to have sex with a woman who he sees as a “no I don’t find her attractive” girl.

          Anyway, my whole point is that it does matter how you label your self if you want to maximize the number of searches you show upon with online dating.

          But again I read the study years ago so I can’t remember the finer points of the research. And I have learned on this site there is a fine line between being a normal look driven human and being shallow in the realm of dating.

        3. Stacy

          This is also very cultural based. I am from the Caribbean and the thin super model look is seen as the exact opposite of attractive. If you are ‘slim’, you better be ‘curvy/have a shape’ to go with the slimness. I think white men are the ones predominantly more attracted to the super model, super thin look with barely any fat. I looked like that until my 30s and thank God I filled out a bit more now (although my waist is still super small). Personally I find that more attractive (although I also see super models as beautiful but would not want their exact body type).

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          Hey Adrian,

          Right now I have “average” for my body type on my OLD profile.

          I think the biggest concern I have is that I don’t want a man to feel that I was mis-advertising what I really am.  As I said, some of the descriptors have become meaningless.  I see where I can be described as slim or average, since I’m a size 4-6 and in the “normal” BMI range.  But I can also be considered curvy–let’s just say I got my first bra when was nine and leave it at that.  The thing is who is placed in what category is highly subjective and all also can have negative connotations;  slim=too skinny, average= size 12-14, which is the average clothing size for adult women, curvy=fat.

          Alas, what’s a girl to do?  😉

      3. 6.3.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Stacy2

        But take an average white guy and he thinks you’re fat if your hips are over 34”.

        I do not believe that that is true for a minute.  Why is the prototypical hourglass shape 36-24-36?  Those dimensions give a woman a hip-to-waist ratio of 1.5.   That is what I refer to as the “golden ratio” because men go Pavlovian when women with hip-to-waist ratio of 1.5 walks into a room.

        Most of my male friends are white guys.  While I like women who are larger than most white guys, most of my male friends do not think a woman is too large until her hip size exceeds 38″.  What matters is that she maintains an hourglass shape and is at least somewhat busty.

        A lot of white guys mistakenly believe that a smaller woman has a smaller/tighter vajayjay.   From my extensive personal experience, the opposite is usually true.   I know that it is counterintuitive, but a woman with a well-developed butt and a large hip-to-waist ratio usually has a shallower/tighter vajayjay than one with more narrow hips and a flat butt.

        1. Stacy2

          The proportion is actually 34-24-34 which is what gives you that coveted 0.7 ratio. Coincidentally, I have that exact ratio but i am proportionately wider across all dimensions (think Kate Upton, 4 inches shorter) – which is still size 2-4 by the way. I can definitely say that a LOT of white guys consider it “big”. Luckily, I consider those guys too small for my own taste (i like my men with broad shoulders, not skinny-minny types), but the fact remains, white dudes want boyish-looking tiny hips figures en mass.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy2

          I am sorry, but you are wrong.  The coveted hourglass figure proportions have been 36-24-36 for over 50 years.

          The specific proportions of 36-24-36 inches (90-60-90 centimeters) have frequently been given as the “ideal”, or “hourglass” proportions for women since at least the 1960s.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust/waist/hip_measurements

          This set of proportions yields a hip-to-waist ratio of 1.5 or a waist-to-hip ratio of 0.667.  The waist-to-hip ratio of ratio of 0.7 is the threshold where men start to trigger on a woman’s curves.  It is not the sweet spot.  The sweet spot has been 0.667 for as long as I have been alive.  That is why men find larger women like Ashley Graham hot.  She’s not only attractive, she has a hip-to-waist ratio of 1.5.

          I have known about these proportions since high school.  Heck, they are even referenced in the song “Brick House” by the Commodores, which, by the way, was penned by the guitarist’s wife.

          She knows she got everything
          A woman needs to get a man, yeah, yeah
          How can she lose with those things she use?
          36-24-36, what a winning hand

           

        3. Yet Another Guy

          By the way, I do not know why writers routinely use the incorrect value when defining hip-to-waist ratio.  They erroneously always give the waist-to-hip ratio, which is the inverse of the hip-to-waist ratio.  A ratio is a value over a value.  The the value to the left of the word “to” is the numerator. The value to the right of the word “to” value is the denominator.

          hip-to-waist ratio = hip measurement / waist measurement

          waist-to-hip ratio = waist measurement / hip measurement

          Deriving one ratio from the other

          hip-to-waist ratio = 1  / waist-to-hip ratio

          waist-to-hip ratio = 1 / hip-to-waist ratio

          Example

          hip-to-waist ratio = 36 / 24 = 1.5

          waist-to-hip ratio =  24 / 36 = 0.667

           

           

           

           

           

           

        4. Stacy2

          @YAG

          Ah ok. I was referring to required runway model proportions, which are what i said per the AMA. Not sure who’s the authority on the “coveted hourglass proportions” but i trust your judgement on it LOL. My point though, remains. Whatever you call it, most white men will think that 36” hips and wider are “big”

  7. 7
    John

    Shaukat said:

    Body image obsession, for men and women, is more the product of consumer/diet culture, advertising, and socialization, as opposed to innate differnces. I doubt either gender was focused on such issues during the middle ages, if you know what I mean.

    Yes.  Everyone was worried about dying from the flu or the black plague  in the old days. Now we don’t have a whole lot to worry about. Except the stuff we like to make up in our heads.

  8. 8
    Adrian

    Hi Emily,

    I would like to address and try to answer (only from my perspective) some of your questions

    1). Emily asked: ” How many women do you know who are really good with the opposite sex and have swarms of men around them? (And this isn’t just about being good looking.)”

    I know lots of women who are “actually” really good with the opposite sex. I don’t know any men who are “actually” even just good with the opposite sex.

    But you are right, the majority of those women don’t flaunt how good they are at reading and manipulating men; while all the guys I know who think they are love to flaunt it.

    My theory is that since women (according to what I have learnt from Karmic Equation) usually have a binary view of their attraction towards men such as “yes he is attractive, no he is not attractive, and neutral opinion of a guys attractiveness”; Only attractive boys got attention and therefore the practice of dealing with women from an early age.

    But men view women more on a scale (1-10) so even if a girl is not a 7-10 she will still get plenty of attention (even unwanted) from the opposite sex. Wanted or unwanted the constant interaction of dealing with boys to men from her youth gives women a basic skill with dealing with the opposite sex.

    It goes back to the conversation you and I had a few weeks ago about socially awkward people: have you noticed more socially awkward men or women? I have noticed more socially awkward men.

    2). Emily asked, “do you always ask out the women you are most interested in? Do you always pursue and ask out women who are you first choice?

    Yes!

    But…

    If a man just stopped at his first choice then he would most likely never have a girlfriend. You have mentioned your distaste for this on numerous post. So what would you like a guy to do?

    If he finds you and two other women attractive it may not be that he finds them more attractive it may just be that the opportunity to ask them presented itself before the opportunity to ask you.

    If they both tell him no are you saying you don’t want him to ask you? What if it was the opposite? What if you said no… should he just stop from asking other women? Just because you did not find him attractive but another women does, would he ever know if he did not ask?

    I am not defending men or am I debating you on this I am genuinely curious as to what do you suggest men do?

    Now if you are speaking about men who do this in your face then I completely understand. I once met a very attractive girl who was introduced to me by a friend. A few days later at a party she approached me and I honestly felt that she thought I was special and that she was attracted to me-she even offered me her number without my asking. Well eventually we parted after a nice lengthy conversation and as the night went on I noticed that literally every-time I looked for her she was flirting with a different guy.

    So of course I did not call her. But now years later after reading the comments from the women on Evan’s blog, I see that women talk to multiple men and choose the man who wins her/ proves himself  best to her/ is better then the others/ stands out the most, etc.

    The point is that women want the man who feels she is worth it and she will choose the guy who displays this (among other things) the best. This is why Evan tells us to not ask but assume that the person we meet is talking to others. He doesn’t tell us to stop talking to them because of this but instead he tells us that we should become better than the competition.

    Maybe this is not the message given to women but it is the message given to us men. Is the message that is given to women; if you are not his first choice he is not really into you? He is a player? He doesn’t want you?

    I am honestly curious because I as a man can not afford to view it this way or I WILL remain single.

    3). Emily stated: ” If a man asks a woman out, she doesn’t hold all the power simply because he did the asking.

    So I DON’T want to get into the who has more power or who has it easier in dating debate.

    BUT

    I will give an example that can hopeful help you see how I and possible other guys see it.

    Emily have you ever had to ask a friend or a family member for a loan? If so you know that when you ask you no longer feel like their equal. You feel that they are judging you, scrutinizing you before they answer; and if they say no the awkwardness of being around them until you pay them back adds even more to the power imbalance.

    Now imagine having that experience everyday until you get a yes, but with strangers. And if you make the mistake of reading the person wrong then you have to live with the awkwardness of them knowing you like them but they don’t feel the same way.

    You once stated that it is not fun for women having to wait for a guy she likes to ask her out but that is not completely the same. If he doesn’t ask it sucks but that is just one guy, now if you had a different guy who you found attractive not approach you everyday then you would be in the same ball park.

    Again I am not down playing what women go though but it seems like women are down playing what men go through.

    Women will look at the picture above and say “YES! We suffer from a negative self body image, but do women ever stop to think about how it affects a man’s ego and self-esteem to constantly get rejected by someone who you find attractive???

    And again unlike women we don’t just have a yes or no but a scale of who we consider attractive. If you are constantly being told NO, but all levels of attractiveness, all sizes, all racial and ethnic groups, then yes it affects your confidence…

    Oh but wait! Women are not attracted to guys that don’t have loads of confidence (o_O)

    Instead of one being worse than the other why can’t they both just be the bad side of the same coin?

    I use to be really short until 11th grade; short and scrawny so I always got picked last in every sport. So I kind of know how women feel when they say it hurts not being picked by a guy who they are attracted to.

    Not being picked or being picked last makes you feel not good enough.

    That is why I say both suck, both are the same coin just different sides. One is a direct rejection and the other is a indirect rejection… but both are rejections.

    However I will say this about the male side of the rejection coin…

    If you ask me out then I know how you feel about me, I can accept or reject you. If I REJECT you then you feel awkward around me because you have open yourself up to me, exposed your personal feelings and I rejected you.

    BUT

    If I just never ask you out nor show interest in you… sure it sucks that the guy you liked did not ask you out YET there is no embarrassment, no awkwardness between us, no feeling that EVERYONE knows you were rejected by me.

    I agree that men do not have it worse but I also believe that most women don’t see it from a man’s point of view… why do you think most door to door sales people are men?

    Women don’t like direct rejection either but if a man complains about it then he is not confident, alpha, or secure…

    1. 8.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Adrian,

      We haven’t heard from you in so long, you should have your PhD by now!  🙂

      I’ll answer what I can but I am old and my mind wanders when I’m listening to my disco music, so bear with me ….  🙂

      My theory is that since women (according to what I have learnt from Karmic Equation) usually have a binary view of their attraction towards men such as “yes he is attractive, no he is not attractive, and neutral opinion of a guys attractiveness”  Not for me. It’s a yes, a no or a maybe. (A maybe means I think he’s kind of cute, but I’m on the fence. ) A “neutral” is a no. A neutral is I feel nothing.

      Only attractive boys got attention and therefore the practice of dealing with women from an early age. To an extent, I guess, but I’m not just focusing on appearance, which so many of the male posters on this site do. There’s more to being attractive to the opposite sex than just being attractive. I have a childhood friend who is “good with the opposite sex.” She is cute but by no means beautiful, but she is warm and flirty. She LIKES men, and they pick up on that and feel good around her.

      If a man just stopped at his first choice then he would most likely never have a girlfriend. You have mentioned your distaste for this on numerous post. My distaste is for men who ask out lots of women and without any thought to whether the women are actually interested.
      If he finds you and two other women attractive it may not be that he finds them more attractive it may just be that the opportunity to ask them presented itself before the opportunity to ask you. If they both tell him no are you saying you don’t want him to ask you? I’m assuming I wouldn’t find out that he asked those other women out first, but how would you feel if a girl you really liked said yes to you only because her first and second choices didn’t ask her out? It’s hard for me to answer this question. I’ve always known who I wanted, and if it didn’t work out with that  person, I waited until I met another first choice. I’m not advocating this way of dating. This is just how I have done it.

      What if it was the opposite? What if you said no… should he just stop from asking other women? Of course not

      Well eventually we parted after a nice lengthy conversation and as the night went on I noticed that literally every-time I looked for her she was flirting with a different guy. I am actually very flirty myself. Ninety percent of it means nothing, I believe, to both sexes, but I agree that it can be difficult to discern someone’s intentions. I’ve been wrong before.
      But now years later after reading the comments from the women on Evan’s blog, I see that women talk to multiple men and choose the man who wins her/ proves himself  best to her/ is better then the others/ stands out the most, etc. But don’t men do that, too?

      Again I am not down playing what women go though but it seems like women are down playing what men go through. I am not trying to down play what men go through. If I have, I apologize.
       And if you make the mistake of reading the person wrong then you have to live with the awkwardness of them knowing you like them but they don’t feel the same way. If you ask me out then I know how you feel about me, I can accept or reject you. If I REJECT you then you feel awkward around me because you have open yourself up to me, exposed your personal feelings and I rejected you. Ok, I’ll be honest, this I don’t get. AT ALL. That’s why I was asking men if they always asked out their first choices. It’s a date, not a marriage proposal. I never assume that a man who asks me out is dying of love for me. If I say no, I don’t get some perverse thrill knowing he’s got “feelings for me.” I don’t know what the depth or extent of his feelings are. Maybe he really likes me or maybe he’s just looking to get laid. Who  knows? You haven’t exposed yourself to the extent you think you have by asking someone out.

      And in terms of feeling awkward, it goes both ways. I went out with this guy a year ago. He asked me out on a second date and I said no. I STILL feel awkward around him even though I did the rejecting. He handled the whole thing badly and I wish I’d never agreed to go out with him.

       

      1. 8.1.1
        Henriette

        “Ok, I’ll be honest, this I don’t get. AT ALL. That’s why I was asking men if they always asked out their first choices. It’s a date, not a marriage proposal. I never assume that a man who asks me out is dying of love for me.”   Thank you for stating this, Emily t.O.; I absolutely agree.  I know plenty of guys who ask out women they’re not particularly interested in bc they haven’t been on a date in a while and so why not go to a play or see a movie with some female companionship instead of sitting at home alone on a Saturday night?  They are, understandably, perplexed when the women behave as these guys must be pining for them just bc they invited them to do something.  My assumption is always that a man asks me out bc he wants some pleasant company that might possibly lead to more, unless he outright states/ indicates that he has strong romantic interest in me.  Guys, please don’t assume a woman knows you’re seriously digging her, just bc you ask her out!

        1. Emily, the original

          Henriette,

          My assumption is always that a man asks me out bc he wants some pleasant company that might possibly lead to more, unless he outright states/ indicates that he has strong romantic interest in me. 

          Exactly, and the operative word is MIGHT lead to more. I never assume.

      2. 8.1.2
        Nissa

        I agree. A lot of the time men who ask me out, do so before asking me any questions about myself. This leads me to the conclusion that his desire to go out with me, is specifically based on appearance, and has almost nothing to do with me as a person. Which I find a bit dehumanizing. Or, they ask me stilted questions like, “do you have a hobby?” that don’t seem to have any relation to me, ie they could ask the same question to any person in the room.

        I would be more impressed by them saying something that specifically relates to me (Your dress is pretty) or (Are you getting a latte or a scone? they both look good and I need help deciding) or even something slightly generic that is in my environment (Boy, it’s hot today, isn’t it?).

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Nissa

          What you are experiencing is the known as the primal urge to pursue and conquer.  It is instinctive behavior that is embedded in the reptilian brain, and without it, men would not seek to couple with women.  A man does not need to talk to a woman to know that he wants to pursue her because all of his coupling triggers (a.k.a. primal triggers) are visual.  Women have primal triggers that are non-visual in nature in addition to visual primal triggers such as a man’s height and his hands.  The most important non-visual female primal trigger is a man’s ranking within a social hierarchy.  A woman needs to talk to/quiz a man to ascertain this ranking.  A man does not need to know anything about a woman to select her as his mate.  His primal triggers exist to quickly determine her breeding health.  That is why men of all ages are drawn to women of child bearing age, not just men of normal child bearing age.

          With that said, one of the reasons that online dating (OLD) is so difficult is because women actually make the first move most of the time in real life (IRL), usually through eye contact, smiling, or body language.  Those visual cues are absent in OLD; therefore, a man has to do the dating equivalent of cold calling.  He has no idea if a woman is going to be receptive to his advances like he would IRL.  On the other hand, a woman has no way to tell the men in whom she is interested that it is okay to make advances.

        2. Nissa

          YAG, while I understand this idea as being the initial point of interest (he sees me, has interest, then walks over), once he begins to interact with me I expect more than “you’re hot – me likey”.

          I see your point re making moves, but I would say that a man actually has MORE cues online than in person. The fact that she is on the site and responding to emails shows an active intention to date. A woman literally makes a list of what she wants and puts it out for all to see. That’s as good as saying, “you’re what I am looking to find!”. Now, if a man doesn’t match her criteria, and still contacts her, then yes, he’d have to doubt his reception –  and as you stated, likely be turned down as he’s selling something she’s not interested in buying.

      3. 8.1.3
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Yes work and school are very time consuming lately: We are building a new site in London and I am in charge of coordinating it, plus we are going through finals in school (-_-).

        As a side note Em I remember that you said that you have two bachelors degrees, I wonder if you got them both consecutively or did you do like me and go back when you were older?

        Looking at 18 year olds now with 30 year old eyes I have noticed that scientist are right to choose them instead of us for their test subjects in relationships.

        You and I as older more experienced adults know how to control our emotions and even do what is mentally right though it feels emotionally wrong… In other words older adults are willing to lie to the world and themselves by suppressing our own pettiness and selfishness in order to do and say the right thing-choosing selflessness over selfishness regularly in a relationship.

        Yet the 18 to under 25 year old crowd isn’t like that. Every decision is purely emotion and feeling based and their view or love, life, and happiness is always so short sided; here and now is more important than the future and why didn’t their partner sacrifice a certain thing for them is usually noticed more than what their partner DID do for them in the relationship. I have learned so much about male and female dating and motivation from simply observing them.

        Of course I do acknowledge that people change as they grow but I do believe that when it comes to dating and relationship a lot of us still have those raw emotional feelings and desires we are just better at disguising our feelings but they are still their and they motivate our actions.

        Anyway I would love to pick your brain on your observations one day about what you learned from observing young people during your time back on campus if the subject ever comes up in the comments.

        P.S. I love KK and I like Chance they are a part of the EMK family here but don’t they remind you of an old couple that everyone but they themselves realize that they should break-up because they are always fighting over the smallest things…

        As KK said I think if she said that cows moo, Chance would argue that actually he knows that cows bark and pee on every fire hydrant they see. If Chance said that the roosters crow at sun rise, KK would argue that actually she always sees roosters howling at the full moon (^_^)!

  9. 9
    Stacy

    When a man asks me out, I assume he wants to sleep with me – that’s it. I assume nothing else. When we go out and develop the relationship, then I can tell what his exact intentions are.

    1. 9.1
      Henriette

      I am amazed by the fact that some guys assert that all women know they (the guys) are super-digging them if they ask them out on a date and are somehow evil cock-teases if they accept the date without being super-interested in the guys, in return.   I think we need 100 women to post here, stating what they assume when a man asks them out and maybe some males would be astounded to read the variety among the responses (although, no doubt some Red Pillers would suggest that many women are just dissembling, not wishing to openly acknowledge that we knowingly use and abuse men for “free dinners” and endless ego strokes while waiting for Alpha Males whom we easily f*ck .  *sigh*)

      1. 9.1.1
        Adrian

        No need for a 100 statements Henriette I hear you loud and clear.

        Thank you for the lesson: it has taught me a lot about how wrong I am in my honest and sincere approach or women

      2. 9.1.2
        Malika

        Hi Henriette:

        I love that you said some guys instead of making a blanket statement!

        I think the guy thinks i am at least passably attractive and is curious to see whether that would parlay into full blown attraction once he spends more time with me. That is all, nothing more or less. I don’t think he is a clitoris teaser if he doesn’t want any contact with me after the first date, that’s just the way it goes. I don’t think most men (over)think you are a cock teaser. They will be disappointed if their interest has been further piqued, but they move on to other women pretty swiftly.

        As for my own expectations: I go out with a guy because i am curious! Most of the guys i go on dates with i meet online. I can ascertain so little from a few photos (they can be cute in photos but either be nothing like their photos in real life or have a personality that drowns out the cuteness) that curious is all i have to go on. If i waited to be super duper interested in a guy after a few e-mails, i would have had two first dates in the past three years! Evan would not have been proud. My not being interested in a second date 80% of the time is not me wanting a free dinner or drinks (The 10 euros 2 glasses of wine cost is not beyond my budget) or an ego boost and now that i have received it it’s bye-bye time. I just don’t think we are a match, and any subsequent time spent with each other would be misleading and a time waste.

        None of this is terribly dramatic or a blow to the ego, but that is how mundane and sometimes tiring real life dating is, and not the emotional roller coaster a few of the commenters make it out to be.

        1. Henriette

          Thank you, dear @Malika.  I think it would be obvious for any student of human nature to note that different men ask out different women for different reasons at different times.  And that women can have a wide variety of assumptions about what being invited on a date “means.”  Why this assertion might cause anyone distress is a mystery. 🙂

        2. Marika

          Malika,

          I can’t believe how similar we are! I wish we lived in the same country so we could be each other’s wing women 🙂

          I sometimes wish dating was more of an emotional rollercoaster. It can be a bit of a mind-f&^k, but I know that no one (or very few people) are out there trying to hurt others and toy with their emotions. For the most part it’s a similar pattern. It often goes like this: one person is more interested than the other one (I’ve been on both sides of that) and the other person senses this and pulls away, hoping not to hurt the other person or feel like the bad guy/girl. Then, the person who’s more interested has a choice: take it personally & think the other person is evil, or recognise this is how dating goes.

          Male or female, I don’t think the majority of people out there dating are being predatory or nasty. Even when they behave badly, I think people are just trying to find the right person for them, without hurting too many people in the process, and sometimes acting out of fear &/or self-protection.

          It can definitely be energy sucking at times going on so many dates that never turn into anything, but if you want a relationship – what’s the alternative? You have to pick yourself up, try not to carry around baggage from the past and keep going. (Not saying I’m always great at this, but I recognise it’s how it needs to be).

          It would be great if we could all be a bit more patient & understanding with each other. Particularly on a blog where we all (or most) have the same/similar goals. Arguing & bemoaning our situation (particularly things you can’t change) aren’t particularly helpful, in my view.

      3. 9.1.3
        SparklingEmerald

        What amazes me is that several “red pill” types have graced this blog time and time again to tell us that we “western” women (or women in general) are fat entitled sluts, only good for sex.  That if weren’t for sex, they’d have nothing to do with us, and even tell us tall tales of future “sex robots” that will replace us.  YAG talks about “going ugly early” and looking for “low hanging fruit” and Chance tells us that men will ask out an attractive woman even if her personality is “insufferable”.  Male commenters even chide us for believing that a man could actually be into us, and scold us not to get excited or get our hopes up if a man asks us out, because he’s probably only looking for sex (because apparently, that all we are good for) One only needs to look through the archives and read comments from McLovin, Obsidian, Vino and others, who spouted comments in that vein. Men who come to a blog mainly for women looking for LOVE, marriage and babies, to tell we women that we don’t deserve that, and to advise other men to not marry, fall in love, etc, but to simply have sex with, and then discard women afterwards.

        Then a male commenter chimes in and says a woman “knows” a man finds her “desirable” if he asks her out, and suddenly, that becomes the new gospel truth, and the male commenters (the “red pillers” the MGTOWs, etc) get their shorts all bunched up when we give them reasons that men ask women out, other than desirability.  Reasons, that MEN themselves have given us, sometimes on this very blog.

        Simply amazing.

        1. KK

          SE,

          The cognitive dissonance is certainly amazing, isn’t It?

          They don’t want us to defend ourselves either. They take the position of being able to say whatever they want, regardless of how innacurate, stupid, or offensive and if you have the nerve to defend yourself, you’re the one who is abusive.

          Given the obvious character deficits, it’s really not all that surprising though. They can’t get away with it in real life. They would risk getting their teeth knocked out. Where I live, there are still plenty of men who don’t take kindly to these types verbally abusing, harassing, and insulting their women.

        2. Stacy2

          Very well put. Sometimes after reading this blog I wonder whether all the normal, adjusted, kind men I know in real life actually think like this too when they’re hidden behind the screen? I don’t know.

        3. Henriette

          Amen, @Sparkling Emerald!  I even gave some examples why a kind, thoughtful man might ask out a woman he’s not invested in (it’s not always about the cruel “easy sex with low-hanging fruit” – eg. maybe he hasn’t been on a date in ages and figures he’ll invite a pleasant woman for a drink rather than go out with his guy friends yet again, or maybe he’s just out of a long-term relationship and wants to get comfortable dating without getting serious with anyone) and I’m accused of dismissing the pain of accumulated rejections and somehow diminishing the efforts of honest, sincere men.   *sigh*

        4. Shaukat

          Where I live, there are still plenty of men who don’t take kindly to these types verbally abusing, harassing, and insulting their women.

          Now KK, I hope you realize that your use of a possessive adjective in this context (“their women”), simultaneously infantilizes women and turns them into someone’s property, and thus contains more misogynistic baggage than several red pill sites combined.

        5. SparklingEmerald

          Shankar. Words such as ” my” or ” their” can be used as possessors or to denote an association or relationship to.  When I say “my mother” or ” my friend” or ” my husband” and I am not denoting possession, I am denoting the relationship.  Most people can put words in context and parse their particular meaning.  You claim that your reading comprehension is fine, but your comments suggest otherwise.

           

        6. KK

          “Now KK, I hope you realize that your use of a possessive adjective in this context (“their women”), simultaneously infantilizes women and turns them into someone’s property, and thus contains more misogynistic baggage than several red pill sites combined”.

          FALSE, Shaukat.

          You have a way of twisting words to make them mean something they don’t. For example, if I were to say, “I don’t think it’s right that OUR young men should be forced to sign up for the draft”, I’m not literally saying they belong to US. Funny how you only point out nuanced statements when you’re the one making them.

          Nor does what I stated infantilize women. Buck25 made a similar point, quite eloquently I might add, regarding fear that women experience on a daily basis. You didn’t tell him he was infantalizing women.

          FACT: ALL MEN fit into one of two categories: Protector or Predator.

          Protectors will protect women and children from predators.

        7. Chance

          KK said:

           

          “FACT: ALL MEN fit into one of two categories: Protector or Predator.

          Protectors will protect women and children from predators.”

           

          I strongly disagree with these statements.  I think both men and women have a responsibility to protect children, but I don’t think that men have a responsibility to protect women that is any greater than women’s responsibility to protect men.  Obviously, we are all expected to be good samaritans, but I don’t believe that one sex has some collective duty to protect the other sex in a manner that puts the former sex in a greater danger.  Furthermore, if a man doesn’t feel like it is his responsibility as a man to protect women, that doesn’t make him a predator.  It is possible for a man to be neither a protector or predator.

        8. Shaukat

          SE, if you’re going to butcher the spelling of someone’s name when it’s right in front of you, then maybe don’t talk so much about reading comprehension.

          I was actually making a bit of a joke-the two of you have been berating almost everyone who disagrees with you on this thread for not having a sense of humor while also labelling them as ‘red pill,’ so just thought I’d have some fun with it.

          I will say this though KK, your last statement that all men fall into one of two categories, protector or predator, is binary nonsense, and is only compatible with the acceptance of very strict and rigid gender roles. However, since you clearly believe in the latter, I guess I’m not really surprised.

        9. KK

          One of my favorite quotes, attributed to British politician Edmund Burke, is “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

          Chance,

          “I think both men and women have a responsibility to protect children”

          I thought that went without saying…

          Since you and Shaukat don’t believe in any sort of gender roles, apparently because men and women are inherently the same, what roles if any, do you two actually believe in?

          If you hear a noise in the middle of the night do you send your girlfriend outside to see what it is? If she’s too scared to, does an argument then ensue because gender roles, blah blah, not fair, blah?

           

        10. Chance

          “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

           

          Who wouldn’t agree with that?  However, it should apply to men and women working together to protect each other equally.  Also, if someone shoots up a movie theater, I will be spending 100% of my energy trying to protect the children…not women and children.  To answer your question about gender roles:  I don’t believe gender roles should be defined by society at large and determined at birth.  Each couple should mutually decide who will do what in a relationship.

        11. KK

          “Also, if someone shoots up a movie theater, I will be spending 100% of my energy trying to protect the children…not women and children”. 

          Why? What if one of those women is your girlfriend?

          “Each couple should mutually decide who will do what in a relationship”.

          I actually agree with this statement. However, it’s important to acknowledge most women are looking for a “protector”, among other things. This doesn’t only apply to physical protection, but it includes it. How many times have you heard a woman say how safe she feels with her bf/ spouse?

        12. Stacy2

          Chance:

          I will be spending 100% of my energy trying to protect the children…not women and children. 

          I would also like to know why that is. I would spend all of my energy protecting the people who are related to me, not somebody else’s children. From the evolutionary standpoint this makes no sense either. It behooves you to protect the women, because they can have more children – hopefully your children. In fact many species kill other males’ offsprings so that the females would be available to bear their own. So yeah, some explanation of this is in order…

          @KK

          it’s important to acknowledge most women are looking for a “protector”, among other things.

          I am not sure if that statement is true, specifically if its is true for millennial women. I for one am not looking for a “protector”. It is a futile task. Most men in this country haven’t even served in the army and couldn’t protect anybody (I grew up in the country where all men had to serve so my frame of reference as to what “masculinity” looks like is different). So, their “protector” stance is mostly posturing and demanding to be treated as if they’re protectors while not actually being able to provide any protection. No thanks. I would rather be with a man who’s self aware enough to call the cops when needed and not get into stupid fights. Just a thought.

           

        13. Chance

          KK, I would hope my girlfriend would be working to save the children, too.  In fairness, I wouldn’t expect her to protect me in that situation, either.  In this age of equality, it’s a very dangerous message to send to men that they have a responsibility to spare their own lives in order to protect women because it is generally considered sexist or chauvinistic to expect women to adhere to traditional gender roles that existed in the distant past (e.g., cook, clean, keep their husbands sexually serviced…. just submitting to their husbands in general).

        14. Chance

          Stacy2,

           

          “It behooves you to protect the women, because they can have more children – hopefully your children. In fact many species kill other males’ offsprings so that the females would be available to bear their own. So yeah, some explanation of this is in order…”

           

          While I believe that this was quite possibly the rationale for “women and children first” in our feral past, I believe this convention has been exploited in our current environment because it now applies to women who aren’t even fertile.  From the standpoint of the preservation of our species, this doesn’t make any sense.  There’s no reason to save a 45 y/o woman any more than a man.  On a sinking ship, the 20 y/o gets the dinghy, and someone closer to your age should be stuck with the men.

           

          Besides, the survival of our species in our feral past was more precarious in nature, but that is far from the case now so there’s no need to preserve women any more than men.

  10. 10
    MilkyMae

    I think men and women make assumptions that hinder success of relationships.  I think men overestimate women’s attraction.  When women goes on a date, she views it as a learning exercise that may evolve.  Men get frustrated when women take their time.  One the opposite side of the coin, men don’t want to wait around for love to blossom.  They seem interested but one small hiccup in the relationship and they hit road.  I think men need to be more patient and women need to be more consistent.

  11. 11
    Adrian

    To the male posters (especially Buck25 and Yet Another Guy since you are older and more experienced),

    I have to admit that I am lost.

    I have read the responses of the women on this post and it has made me realize that I have been wrong in the way I have been approaching dating.

    Honesty and sincerity don’t work or at least even if you are it appears that women will still start out with a negative view of you and in a way force/expect you to prove that you are a genuine person with true interest in her.

     

    SparklingEmarld mentioned revenge f*cking and hate f*cking…

    I have never even heard of that until I read her comment and I nor any guy I know would even dream of doing such a thing.

     

    KK mentioned that most women don’t believe that most men do have insecurities about their bodies and looks especially compared to women…

    Every guy I know feels some kind of insecurity or wishes that something about his appearance or his body was better. They are exposed to the same movies, TV shows, and magazines that women are. Except for maybe a comedy show, most movies, tv shows, and magazines all have tall handsome men.

    It is the handsome men not the overweight, the short, the average looking, or even the funniest character that we men hear the women that we are around everyday openly fantasizing about. They talk like this openly around us and yet are genuinely confused that a man could have doubts about his own looks and body compared to these men that women brag about desiring.

     

    Nissa is somewhat disgusted and feel “dehumanized” because strangers approach her to ask her out based on her looks instead of taking the time to get to know her first…

    How is a guy suppose know about a stranger’s life? It was his attraction towards her looks that motivated him to approach and learn more about her (which is why he asked her out) in the first place.

     

    Emily and Henriette never assume that a guy likes them if he ask them out so they dismiss the courage it takes to approach a women you are interested in… and I am assuming they dismiss the feeling we get from accumulated rejections…

    I can’t speak of other guys but I have never asked out a women who I was not very interested in trying to date… Now that I think about it no guy I have ever called my friend has ever approached a women with the intention of just having sex with her. And contrary to the female myth we men do talk about how we feel, we just don’t go on and on about it. Every guy I know who was rejected by a girl he was interested in was hurt in some way by it.

     

    Stacy(1) automatically assumes that if a man asks her out it is for sex…

    I can’t speak for other men but I never ask a women out just for sex I ask a women out to see if a relationship is possible. I always assumed that sex was a normal part of a health relationship; I’m not some evil scheming predator just because I approached a woman.

     

    And on another post the commentor Callie along with many other women feel that EVERY man is a rapist, stalker, and serial killer until he proves that he is not. So they give out fake phone numbers, fake names, refuse to let him pick them up or even say where they live. If a man feels insulted by this then he isn’t putting her feelings of safety first, yet his feelings don’t matter…

    If the foundation of every relationship is to prove to a women that you are not a some psycho and more importantly you have to court her while she thinks you maybe a killer. Well honestly I just don’t know what to say about this one..

     

    Speaking of sex  a host of male and female relationship “experts” tell women to hold out sex but DEMAND a guy pay, plan, call, etc etc… If he demands anything dump him!!! And even after over a month of doing all this for her (her only job is to show up and smile but never initiate phone calls, pay, plan, etc) if he wants sex and she says no (which she has the right to) if he leaves her because he feels that he is giving but getting nothing in return then he is labeled as ONLY chasing her for sex. If she admits that in the past she has slept with guys to quickly and he thinks, “well damn, I’ve been treating you better in the last 2 months than the guy you slept with after dating him for only 3 weeks.” if he gets upset by this then women are taught that the guy is wrong! Her feelings not his count…

    This one is hard for me to understand, he gives, she receives, then eventually she gives (I’m not just talking about sex here) and initiates, but he still gives it’s not like he stopped.

    I know it is not about being fair it is about what works but I just had the misfortune being at a conference this weekend for work. And as I have mentioned before I am one of the only very few males high up in my company, so I spent the weekend surrounded by hundreds of women and I got to hear a lot of “girl talk.”

    I won’t go into detail of the conversations but hearing women brag about how they slept with this hot guy or that sexy guy but made their current kind boyfriend or husband wait for months. Or hearing so many women brag about all they did to make a guy win them and how they went months without doing this or that for him while he still “courted her properly.”

    And then coming back here reading these comments just has me a little dishearted.

    …   …   …

    Anyway guys how do you approach dating?

    I feel that if you are going to be seen as a dishonest scheming villain who ONLY wants sex and NEVER means it when he ask her out and is a liar when he says he is interested in her

    Or that you have to give and just be happy that she is saying yes and showing up… that should be your reward for doing all the paying, planning, etc… if you are a man of quality

    It just seems not worth it.

    I’m just trying to wrap my head around how other guys approach dating if they know women will naturally have such a distrusting view of them.

    1. 11.1
      Adrian

      PS.

      I don’t really want to hear any female comments on my question. I have already read your comments so no need to add more.

      And thanks for the lesson

      1. 11.1.1
        Chance

        Hi Adrian, I understand your frustration.  I know I am not one of the older guys (or someone you’d probably want to hear from even if I was), but I can share what has worked for me.

         

        Speaking from experience here…. I would say that it’s best that you don’t spend any energy worrying about how women will perceive you, or your approach, when it comes to dating because 1.) it’s best for  your sanity and 2.) this kind of mindset in a man is attractive to women.  All women know, on some level, that you want to have sex with them if you are pursuing them, and there’s nothing wrong with that….. they want a man who is sexual and who isn’t concerned about making a woman feel comfortable before sex.  I know this might not be consistent with a lot of what you see written here from women, but the talk rarely matches the behavior when it comes to women and their stated preferences.  Don’t listen to what they say… pay attention to what they respond to.

         

        Before my partner, my approach to dating had been to cast a wide net and pursue sex with many women with the idea that any one of them could turn into a committed, monogamous relationship if we were compatible enough.  I didn’t much care if most women expected a man to pay…. if she didn’t pay by date 4, I moved on.  However, if you set the correct tone from the beginning, plenty (most?) women will not lose interest and will offer to pay, and alternate paying after that.

         

        One final point on women who are ostensibly mistrusting of certain men who are pursuing them:  I think when a woman says that she has to be comfortable before she has sex, it has more to do with her trying to psych herself up for the idea of having sex with that particular guy than it does with her not trusting him (or it could also be that she intentionally avoids men who inspire that raw, feral attraction in her because she cannot trust herself with how she will handle it or it distracts her compatibility sensor).  For the most part, if a woman is really into a guy, she’ll break any “rules” you think she has in order to sleep with you… even if comfort or rapport hasn’t been established yet.  Don’t take this the wrong way, but sex with someone for the first time shouldn’t be comfortable or something that has been meticulously planned over the course of several weeks.

        1. Emily, the original

          Chance,

            For the most part, if a woman is really into a guy, she’ll break any “rules” you think she has in order to sleep with you… even if comfort or rapport hasn’t been established yet.

          Yes, this is true, at least for me, but I can count on both hands the number of men who have inspired what you call initial, “raw, feral attraction” in me. That type of attraction is the exception and not the rule, and it’s also beyond anyone’s control. It’s either there or it’s not. A man can’t create it by trying to win a woman over and he can’t hope to be the exception. It’s not an effective strategy.

        2. KK

          I agree, Emily. That is NOT an effective strategy. I’ll add to that by saying that for a man to assume that a woman who sleeps with him soon is due to a “raw, feral attraction”, is most often untrue. It most likely is just her pattern or for a variety of other reasons. If asked, most women are not going to openly admit, “yes, I sleep with everyone I’m somewhat attracted to after date 1 or 2” (or whatever the case may be). Lol.

        3. Chance

          Hi Emily, what strategy are you referring to?  I haven’t proposed any kind of strategy here as it relates to sleeping with women within a specified timeframe.

        4. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          What strategy are you referring to?

          Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that a man who is dating a woman who is wildly attracted to him doesn’t have to do as much in terms of courting, calling, etc., because of her high level of interest in him. In addition, the sex will happen faster. I was saying that that isn’t a good strategy (for a man to expect that) because the probability that she’s so turned on by him that she’ll chuck the “rules” is low.

        5. Chance

          Emily, that wasn’t quite what I was saying.  I was just pointing out how women’s stated rationale for their preference to wait for sex often doesn’t align with the actual reason.

           

          I’d say that a woman’s attraction to a man is heavily influenced by how he carries himself (e.g., his confidence, independence, drive, decisiveness, etc.).  A manifestation of this can be seen in a man’s approach towards women.  If a man confidently approaches/initiates, and is decisive in his planning, women will find that to be attractive…. and these are aspects of “courting”.  So, the concepts of “courtship” and a woman’s attraction to a particular man are linked in this regard.  That said, while a guy does have to take the initiative and be consistent, my experience has been that he doesn’t need to pay for more than the first date or two or actually call a woman (hardly any millennials call each other).

           

          With all that said, I would advise against men waiting around for a long time to finally have sex with a woman because it’s been my experience that the sex just isn’t very good in these cases (there are two primary reasons for this).  I have also heard other men say the same thing.

        6. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I’d say that a woman’s attraction to a man is heavily influenced by how he carries himself (e.g., his confidence, independence, drive, decisiveness, etc.).  A manifestation of this can be seen in a man’s approach towards women.  If a man confidently approaches/initiates, and is decisive in his planning, women will find that to be attractive…. and these are aspects of “courting”.  So, the concepts of “courtship” and a woman’s attraction to a particular man are linked in this regard. 

          Yes confidence and decisiveness help. Leading with a masculine energy. But if you’re talking about “raw, feral attraction,” that is hormonally and physiologically based. All the confidence in the world won’t create it. However, if a woman feels some chemistry and likes you, the confidence/decisiveness can ratchet up her interest.

        7. Chance

          Emily, “But if you’re talking about “raw, feral attraction,” that is hormonally and physiologically based.”

           

          This is highly debatable.  I think it’s a combination of looks and confidence.  If a man is missing either one, then it isn’t likely he will inspire that type of attraction.

        8. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          This is highly debatable.  I think it’s a combination of looks and confidence.  If a man is missing either one, then it isn’t likely he will inspire that type of attraction.

          We’ll have to disagree. The last guy who I felt that level of attraction for was relatively average-looking. Short. Kind of skinny. I took one look at him and said, “Yowza! Who is that?” And he hadn’t said a word nor had he tried to approach me.

        9. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          Quote from anthropologist Helen Fisher about attraction:

          “Attraction, I hypothesize, is associated in the brain primarily with high levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine and with low levels of serotonin. This emotion system evolved chiefly to enable males and females to distinguish among potential mating partners … “

        10. Chance

          I agree with you, Emily.  I misunderstood your prior comments because I thought you were saying that a man’s looks is all that really matters in generating strong attraction.

        11. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I thought you were saying that a man’s looks is all that really matters in generating strong attraction.

          No, with a strong attraction (a visceral reaction to someone), it’s hormonal/ pheromonal/physiological. We don’t have much control over who inspires us like that.

          With a low-level or medium-level attraction, a man’s looks and confidence can help increase the attraction. And, of course, if the woman likes the man and is compatible with him also help.

      2. 11.1.2
        Malika

        Hi Adrian:

        Not a comment, just a question. What caused you to write this comment? Did something irl that made you feel frustrated with women?

      3. 11.1.3
        Nissa

        Adrian, I’m sorry that we’ve upset you, but it’s also true that this is only a portion of ‘all that is’, not the whole picture.

        Speaking for myself, if a man approaches me based on my looks, that alone is not dehumanizing. A genuine smile, any small compliment that is relevant, even commentary about our circumstance that is relevant to me or our common situation would be fine. If he appears to have an interest in me as a person, we can get to know each other and have a great conversation, which may or may not lead anywhere. If he then asked me out, I would enjoy that. It’s only when a man seems to have difficulty connecting with me as an individual vs a stereotype, that I don’t enjoy. Just as you wouldn’t like it if a woman walked up, looked you up and down, saying: here’s Adrian. Pulse, check. Penis, check. Let’s go out!!

        For myself, I don’t call, plan and pay for ONE simple reason: it’s horribly ineffective. When I did this, it killed any desire the man had for me. Therefore, I don’t do that anymore. When a man does these things, it creates a situation where I can appreciate him and to give back to him, without creating an imbalance. Men, just like women, can choose at any time if what they are getting (fun, appreciation and connection) are worth his effort and money. If it’s not, I can’t imagine anyone would gainsay his choice to stop making effort.

    2. 11.2
      Tom10

      Wowsers Adrian; you’re on the warpath today!
       
      In fairness to several of the ladies you mentioned (I’m thinking Henriette, Sparkling Emerald and Emily in particular) consistently write fair, balanced and non-vindictive comments. Any points they raise are just noting genuine dating land-mines women need to be aware of.
       
      However, just in general reaction to your comment, there’s a phenomenon on this blog (and presumably all blogs in general) that I’m periodically guilty of succumbing to myself: blog-jadedness (I just coined that).
       
      Every so often I bristle at certain comments and certain commenters which bring out feelings I didn’t realize I had. So I have to take a “blog-breather” and reset to my default friendly disposition. You have been approaching dating the right all along; you just gotta watch that blog negativity doesn’t affect your disposition.
       
      I can only imagine the negativity that the ladies have to fight on their journey.
       
      I think, ultimately men and women are just wired differently: our natural biological goals don’t always coalesce, to the point that they’re even opposed to each other. So it’s only natural and inevitable that dating blogs will sometimes descend into all out gender-wars.
       
      The thing is to understand the experiences of the other side and never allow the bitterness to creep in. Then it becomes a slippery-slope to…becoming our friend Obsidian.
       
      “Anyway guys how do you approach dating?”
       
      The best way, I’ve always found, is to be consistently happy, smiley, funny and approachable. Even when you feel the total opposite inside.
       
      Cheer up bud, it makes all the difference. 😉

      1. 11.2.1
        Marika

        I know this was for Adrian, but just wanted to thank you for your lovely, balanced & helpful comment, Tom 10.

        You’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s blog-jadedness for sure. Most of the most objectionable & nasty, over -the-top comments made here, I’m 99.9% sure would never be made by those same people if not for the Internet and the anonymity it provides. Also, if they could see the faces of the people they are making the comments to.

        Thanks for the reminder (and terminology). Like Adrian, I sometimes get disheartened from reading the worst of the comments (male and female) made on this blog.

        But then I remind myself, plenty of people are happily coupled who aren’t 25, athletic, 6 feet, with impeccable social skills, strong sexual appetites, and who made just the right amount of calls / paid for the right amount of dates and said all the right things at the right times…

        For what it’s worth, Adrian, Tom is right in that a negative attitude is probably the worst possible thing to take on a date. I certainly wouldn’t judge you based on your height, income or whether you planned all the dates, but if you were really negative about dating, about me/women, or yourself, that would be a buzz kill (I presume it’s the same for men).

        Tom, how do you pull off consistently happy, smiley & funny? I can do that quite well when I’m feeling it and/or when the other person is giving that same energy, but I find it hard to sustain if the other person isn’t warm, or the date is a bit dull or I’m suffering from temporary blog-jadedness (let’s say it often enough to get it into Urban Dictionary!). I definitely aspire to it, but is there a technique you have for doing it even when you feel the opposite?

        1. Tom10

          Aw thanks Marika #11.2.1
           
          Apologies for my tardy reply; thank you for your lovely comment in response as well. 🙂
           
          “Tom, how do you pull off consistently happy, smiley & funny?”
           
          To be honest Marika it’s a battle; I have a propensity, which I think is partially or wholly genetic, to wallow in deep black holes of despair so fighting the negativity is a constant life-long pursuit.
           
          But over time I’ve learned a few effective techniques to counteract it which I just need to implement once I sense the slide starting; then it’s only a matter of time before things turn around to the bright side and I’m genuinely happy, smiley and funny once again.
           
          “is there a technique you have for doing it even when you feel the opposite?”
           
          Well here are the steps I’ve implemented in my pursuit to being consistently happy, smiley and funny:
           
          Physiological
          I think probably the most important thing to achieve anything in life begins with our basic physiology. So all the usual suspects; good diet, exercise, moderate alcohol intake, sufficient sleep and daylight. These are the fundamentals and are basic requirements to simply function as a capable adult. A few weeks of taking care of yourself properly is half the battle.
           
          Even though it sounds simple it can be surprisingly difficult to apply these basics on a consistent basis.
           
          Managing stress is also important; ensuring that our job or college course doesn’t overshadow its overall significance in our lives. Sometimes we can get caught up stressing about small things which assume irrationally large significance. It’s just a job.
           
          Psychological.
          Jeremy explained this well in comment #12; regarding CBT and questioning our negative thoughts, and then learning to reappraise the situation from a positive perspective.
           
          So when we get dumped, ghosted or ignored you just gotta not take it personally – even though it kinda mostly is.
           
          But sometimes it’s not; some people we meet on our dating journey are maximizers (ahem), avoidants (ahem), commitment-phobes (ahem), narcissists (ahem) etc. Haha.
           
          And you just can’t win with those people. So you just gotta try forget them and keep it moving.
           
          Managing people.
          The main thing here is cutting negative people out of our lives as much as possible. Early in my career I was prepared to work for a**holes so as to work for the best firms and maximize my career prospects. No more. I only ever deal with courteous respectful people now and simply cut negative/abusive people out of my life, even at the expense of some remuneration.
           
          But also learning to handle regular decent people; avoiding possibly antagonistic comments to avoid triggering arguments (i.e. stirring the pot). I used to adore partaking in heated political debates in college which often descended into anarchic shouting matches. Now I avoid discussing politics, religion, socio-economics or any other possibly highly contentious matters as they’re not worth the hassle. Besides, people over, say, 22 (i.e. finished college) normally have their minds set anyway, so the discussions can only finish by agreeing to disagree or (more likely) one party walking away in disgust.
           
          Having goals, and achieving them.
          I read once that the path to internal happiness is successfully achieving what you wish to achieve. And I think there’s some truth in that. Successfully achieving our ambitions transforms people; it makes us feel like winners.
           
          Fake it to make it.
          But before reaching that point you gotta fake it til ya make it. Fake confidence can fool a lot of people. And, in time, after some results, fake confidence can become genuine confidence.
           
          That’s why alcohol is so closely associated with dating eh; it just gives us that bit of fake confidence we need to get us started.
           
          TV/Internet
          I watch a lot of comedies and sitcoms rather than violent or horror films and try to limit exposure to tedious news. I just love watching comics on YouTube and try insert naf one-liner jokes into daily life whenever I have an opening. Cue my favorite one-liner:
           
          “as a child I was made to walk the plank. We couldn’t afford a dog”.
           
          Haha. I’m chuckling now. Even if told badly the intent will carry and induce conviviality.
           
          As noted to Adrian limiting exposure to vituperative blog comments would be beneficial; one handy technique here is to skim/skip over the comments written by commenters that antagonize you and go directly to the ones you enjoy.
           
          Experience/resilience
          In time all the aforementioned lessons become ingrained in our persona, so that when we hit a bump in the road we have the experience to realize the steps we need to take to bounce back quicker and get back to positivity.
           
          ————————————
           
          As you can see Marika, it’s not actually that easy to be consistently happy, smiley & funny. But once it’s achieved its effects can be wonderful. This disposition then generates a positive feed-back loop; people smile when they meet you as they know you’ll brighten up their day rather than drag them down.
           
          Apologies for my excessively verbose reply; I wish you the best on your journey to also being consistently happy, smiley and funny.
           
          PS. I see “blog-jadedness” seems to be catching on… 😉
           
          @ Henriette
          “even when we disagree”
           
          We usually agree though Henriette don’t we? In fact many of our values are quite similar (except the one, in which I’m an outlier).
           
          “I believe Adrian and I, and many other posters, would be well-served by spending less time on dating blogs, overthinking issues, and more time going on dates.”
           
          Yeah I think on a “what’s good for us” level we’d be well served living life rather than writing about it.
           
          But there’s just something about exchanging ideas here that’s so addictive though isn’t there?

      2. 11.2.2
        Henriette

        Thank you for this, @Tom10.  I do try to be fair and balanced in my comments; I have a dad,  brothers and male cousins whom I adore.  Also, I’ve become fond of some of the guy commenters here, like Buck25, Jeremy, Chance and you… yes, even when we disagree.  That said, being personally attacked by Carolyn, who was quite sure that I must be a man bc my comments are not always as stridently “pro-woman” as A Real Female would write, or being on the receiving end of long-winded diatribes by bloviators like Rusty, have certainly given me a case of blog-jadedness.   I believe Adrian and I, and many other posters, would be well-served by spending less time on dating blogs, overthinking issues, and more time going on dates.

        1. Henriette

          Yes, @Tom10; you and I do tend to see eye to eye on most points, as well as write our views directly while at the same time trying to be thoughtful and avoid unkindness.  In fact, I draw a blank when you mention this “one” area where our values significantly diverge; please remind me!

        2. Tom10

          Er Henriette, well maybe it’s not so much a particular value, rather a proclivity, that doesn’t quite align – sex! Haha. 😉

        3. Henriette

          Hah @Tom10.  I had wondered if that’s what you meant.  Yes, our actions regarding that proclivity might differ but even here, our values are pretty much aligned, right?  Know yourself; behave with integrity; take responsibility for your own actions.  For me, the end result is no casual sex because I realise it wouldn’t make me happy and for you, the end result is lots because you enjoy it and you never dissemble to get it. Different outcomes but same thought process, my friend.  🙂

      3. 11.2.3
        SparklingEmerald

        Thanks Tom10

    3. 11.3
      Buck25

      Well, I see the good ship Adrian has found himself on the rocks of disillusion. I had honestly hoped this wouldn’t happen, but based on experience, I had feared it might. Never fear, your older brothers here have been standing by, just in case.(one more reason we have to hang together a  at least a  bit for you may be assured that if we do not, we shall, as a famous statesman from my side of the pond once observed,  most certainly all be hanged separately, courtesy of the distaff set. I think you are familiar with the works of Kipling, are you not? I commend to you a certain poem of his, entitled the “The Female of the Species”. Commit it to memory, and remember well the lesson therein. There is much truth in those stanzas that serves as a stark reminder of just exactly what we are up against.

      It’s going to take several posts to answer those questions of yours. What I’m about to tell you will, I am  certain, earn me at least a severe verbal flogging if not tar and feathers (or worse) from the women here. Nonetheless, I believe I had better begin with a discussion of First Principles. Without these, there is little to no hope of you rising above your present predicament. Do note, that while we are not engaged in a “gender war” or any such nonsense, in the beginning of dating or attempting to date women, we find ourselves in an adversarial  position vis a vis women.

      First Principle Number 1: There will ALWAYS be a disconnect between anything a woman says, and what she actually does. This disconnect will always be present whether the woman in question admits it, or not, or for that matter even if she is not consciously aware of it.

      First principle Number 2: Men have fantasies. women do as well. The difference is, women quite literally live in theirs, emerging only when absolutely forced to. The state you and I know as “reality”, is an absolutely fearful abomination to a woman, and they will almost invariably avoid it like the plague. We HAVE feelings (although most women simply refuse to believe that). Women by contrast, ARE their feelings, period. Their entire worldview is based on that concept.

      First Principle Number 3: A woman can backward rationalize anything and everything she does. That is, if she can’t actually find a rational justification for anything she chose or did, she will make one up, and internalize it as absolutely unquestionably true, and more than that completely logical. This is both a blessing and a curse, one we can sometimes use to our own advantage.

      Note, Corollary to Number 3 above. In her own mind, a woman may not always be right, but…she is NEVER wrong. This applies especially to any dealings with us.

      First Principle Number 4 : Women are raised from the time they are toddlers with the sure and certain knowledge offing absolutely entitled to their fairy tale Prince. This concept begins with Disney movies, and is followed through adulthood and beyond, by countless movies, novels, and especially “Bodice Ripper” romance novels which serves as soft core female porn. The male protagonist is always some variant of the following: impossibly tall and handsome, , filthy rich, intelligent, unbelievably charming, the ultimate in masculinity, hyper confident beyond even the most alpha of living mortal men, obtainable only by great effort, and impossible for any but the Heroine (which she imagines herself to be) to tame, at which time he falls totally and completely vulnerably within her absolute power and control, forever. The fact that this entirely fictional character is a combination of qualities no actual living breathing human male could ever be, is completely and utterly beside the point. This is where her bar is set. To the extent that any man remotely resembling this character might exist, the probability of any mortal man actually being able to mate with a woman who has that as a goal (which is virtually ALL women) is something less than 1%. This of course, will simply not do, so, strictly to give himself some chance, a man soon figures out that if he can’t be that character, he has to convince any woman he hopes to ever sleep with that he might be. He therefore does the only thing he can; he lies. This phenomenon is best exemplified by the dynamics of online dating, but has real life implications as well.

      I think that’s enough for a beginning. I’ll continue later.

      1. 11.3.1
        Marika

        Buck,

        No verbal flogging, and I certainly won’t try to change your mind because you’re clearly very set on your beliefs, but one very important thing to bear in mind is that:

        The women you’ve had in your life do not equal all women.

        I was married to an immature, verbally abusive narcissist. I know not all men are immature, verbally abusive narcissists. I know most people don’t marry verbally abusive narcissists. Most of my friends are with men who wouldn’t dream of abusing them. My experience was about my choice of men. Which was related to my upbringing.

        Not because all men are this way.

        Blanket statements like yours (about circa 4 billion people) become self-fulfilling prophecies if you buy into them and encourage others to.

        Food for thought.

      2. 11.3.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Buck,

        “He therefore does the only thing he can; he lies. This phenomenon is best exemplified by the dynamics of online dating, but has real life implications as well.”

        OMG!  Don’t leave me hanging!  Having an absolutely fabulous fly-on-the-wall experience here. . .

      3. 11.3.3
        Malika

        If you had said ‘some women’ and ‘some men’ i would have agreed with you completely. All these observations can be applied to the small percentage of self-absorbed and delusional men and women i have met throughout my life.

        1. Buck25

          Ladies,

          First of all, our young friend Adrian has run into some dismay and confusion, and on that account he has asked for some older male advice. Like more than one ernest young man he has approached this dating/mating business from a place of benevolence, and an honest attempt to understand you, your thought processes, and your behaviors.He  has asked that you ladies stay out of this part of the discussion, for the time being, and I’d appreciate it if you would respect his wishes, at least until we clarify some points of confusion.

          Let’s understand a couple of things. Men and women approach dating/mating with what are, in the beginning anyway, entirely different mindsets, goals, agendas, and strategies. We cannot get to any understanding of particular cases, without generalizing first. Of course there are exceptions to everything; the fact of those, does not mean we cannot observe, comment, on, and try to understand, the commonly prevailing viewpoints and goals of both genders. This is emphatically NOT about any supposed gender war. There isn’t one. War implies malevolence. Men and women approach dating from an adversarial perspective, because in the beginning, for most, that’s what it is. The inherent conflict, however, is best viewed as a negotiation between two largely opposed sets of viewpoints and agendas, in which the objective (properly anyway) is less about absolute victory /unconditional surrender for one side or the other than reaching some sort of a workable compromise that satisfies the basic desires/needs of both sides, to the greatest extent possible. However, this begins, as it must, in most cases, from a position of total selfishness. No one here is dating to meet someone else’s needs, or fulfill someone else’s expectations. On the contrary, the primary desideratum for both genders is to get whatever we perceive to be in our own best interest. This is not “wrong”; in fact it is necessary.

          The mere fact that things may be said here which are at odds with prevailing female beliefs, is not malevolent , nor is it misogynist, any more than similar commentary in your female kaffeeklatsches is malevolent, or misandrist. What I hope to do is explicate, from a male point of view, a better understanding of why you think and behave as you do, vis a vis men and dating. Observe, and you just might find that you get a better understanding of why men think and act as we do.

          It might just be wiser, rather than to place so much emphasis on the source of some viewpoints, or worry about anyone’s preconceptions of the opposite gender, to simply sit back and observe. Ask yourself this; if the end result is that both you and men have a higher percentage of success, and get more of your needs and desires met in the end, does it really matter how this was achieved?

          So, ladies, be patient, don’t jump to conclusions too quickly, and give this discussion a chance to unfold; for there is a lot to be talked over, mulled over and understood to the greatest extent we can. What will emerge, I hope, is a better understanding of you , your attitudes, your desires, your goals, and the strategies you employ to  achieve them, from a male point of view. It will not agree with your own, nor should it. We will still see you through our own lens, just as you will see us through yours. There’s nothing wrong, or antithetical to your own interest in that. One last thing. Every day, I see posts here from women who have “given up on men”. Rarely is this criticized. On the other hand, if a man comes here and says he has “given up on women”, the cry goes up instantly “Red Alert! Red Alert! MGTOW! Crucify him!” Do try to understand that both are the inevitable casualties of the misunderstandings between the sexes. I know what I’m asking from both sides here is something akin to “sympathy for the Devil”, but as we go along I believe you’ll see why.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Buck, with all due respect, one of the blog rules is that we aren’t supposed to hijack he thread to ask advice for our own problems.  Adrian has done just that AND he is trying to silence the ladies on a blog that is predominantly for ladies.

           

          I think Adrian might benefit greatly from coaching from Evan.  He could get some one on one, without the back ground noise of other commenters.

        3. Tron Swanson

          SE,

          Wow, a member of one gender invading a space intended for another gender? Where do you think he could have possibly gotten that idea?

          If you use a strategy against someone, you can’t be surprised when they turn around and use it against you…

      4. 11.3.4
        Shaukat

        Actually, I don’t think he’s trying to silence anyone, he simply stated that he’s heard enough of the bizarre theories spouted about groups of men asking out women to “hate f–” them. Frankly, if a man is struggling with dating, sex and relationships, it’s best for him to seek the advice of experienced men who are successful with the above, as opposed to asking women, who often unintentionally give false advice. It’s nice that Adrian seems to be wising up to that fact.

        1. Chance

          Skaukat, I was about to respond to SE, but you provided the best response possible.  I also agree that Adrian seems to be on the verge of having a breakthrough.  While it’s unfortunate that he’s down and out at the moment, the fact that he heard his female co-workers talk like that is one of the best things that could have ever happened to him.  They might have trusted him as being one of their own and felt comfortable discussing such things in front of him, which is why they opened their kimonos.

    4. 11.4
      Tron Swanson

      Adrian,

      Personally, I feel that dating and relationships aren’t worth it, which is why I avoid both. I tried to make relationships work, but I only made myself miserable.

      But, at the same time, women aren’t worth getting upset over. Scratch that–people aren’t worth getting upset over.

       

    5. 11.5
      D_M

      Adrian,

      It’s really about being comfortable in your own skin. If your natural default position is being honest and sincere, wear them with pride. Those are your stripes. Let future dates know exactly who you are. If chica doesn’t reciprocate in a manner that enables you to feel appreciated, pull the plug. It might be a personality thing, but I run no game. I find the need to be calculating very exhausting. This approach allows me to move forward without lingering regrets. Continue to put the best Adrian on display while being keenly aware of Buck25’s articulation of the game. Once caught, deploy Jeremy’s astute observations about the yin-yang of relationships.

  12. 12
    Jeremy

    @Adrian.  I hesitated before responding here, because I’m not sure what’s triggering you or what you really want right now.  Are you looking for dating advice?  Are you looking for solace from a bad experience?  Are you looking to understand women?  I’m not going to offer any advice on those things right now.  Instead I’ll offer this:

     

    Do you know much about cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT)?  It is a technique used by psychologists to try to change the way we feel by changing the way we think.  I’ve read books on the subject and had several therapy sessions when I felt emotionally unable to cope with certain events in my life.  It is something you might find helpful too.

     

    Consider the following situation – you are at a party, and you approach a beautiful woman and say hello to her.  She ignores you.  So you try again to introduce yourself and say hello, but she just pretends you don’t exist and walks away.  How do you feel?  Probably angry, hurt, resentful?  Now what if, later on, you discover that this woman was actually deaf?  She didn’t reply to you because she didn’t hear you.  Now how do you feel?  The point of this story is to illustrate that we feel a certain way because of assumptions that we make – if we assume that the woman didn’t respond because she was arrogant, stuck-up, didn’t like the look of you, etc, then we feel one way.  If we assume she didn’t respond because she didn’t hear you, we feel another way.  We change how we feel by changing what we think.

     

    How is any of this relevant to you?  It is relevant because you are making assumptions and basing feelings on those assumptions.   Some questions: 1) What if women who have sex with one guy and make another guy wait actually believe that doing so shows that they like the second guy more?  As ludicrous as this sounds to a man, what if women actually see the world this way?  What if the woman making you wait isn’t trying to take advantage of you, but rather is trying to get you to stick around?  2) What if women talk about hate f—ing and potential rape, not because they think all men would do this, but because they are simply afraid of it?  What if women don’t really WANT to make men wait weeks/months for sex, but do so because they don’t know what else to do, how else to protect their hearts from pain?  What if so much of female behavior does not stem from entitlement but rather confusion?  Might this change the way you feel?  Might it trigger empathy rather than disgust?
    These questions helped me break out of the quagmire of confirmation bias back in my manospherian days.  The notion that the automatic thoughts we sometimes have, the ones that lead to our emotional states, can sometimes be based on false premises.  That we can change the way we feel by changing the way we think.  Something to consider….I hope you find it helpful.

    1. 12.1
      Buck25

      Jeremy,

      Thanks for the (as usual) thoughtful commentary.  I’m headed in a similar direction (not entirely, but in part) as I get further along in explaining my observations to Adrian. You and I come from slightly different points of view, what with age differences, and different male personalities (you seem to lean more toward the beta side of the spectrum, I more toward the alpha,) In this case it’s all good, and I think the combination of somewhat diverging male perspectives will be of considerable help to Adrian in resolving some of his current dilemmas. So please, continue to chime in with your own thoughts, as you can; It will be a welcome addition to our discussion. I’m hopeful that YAG and some other other male contributors will also join us in sharing their own thoughts and observations; we may all learn a few things in the process. I do want to say that I’m not without empathy for women. They do face some societal expectations, influences and pressures, which we do not, and some understanding of those, and their effects on women’s beliefs and behaviors, is something I’m going to get into further, as the discussion moves along. Let me lay a bit more groundwork first, and we’ll get into discussing some of the points you raised, as they are quite important to our understanding.

      1. 12.1.1
        Jeremy

        Sounds good, Buck.  We do have different perspectives on many issues, but I made a conscious decision not to contradict the points you raised above.  I did this because I think it is important to have different points of view expressed, and to let readers judge the merits of the content.  Curious to read the rest of your advice…

    2. 12.2
      Kenley

      Brilliant!  What I love most about what you have written is that is provides a clear path to changing the harmful ways men and women view each other.   Thank you!

    3. 12.3
      Nissa

      Jeremy, very well said.

  13. 13
    Buck25

    Ok, now where were we. Ah yes, we were discussing some of the societal programming women get, and we were at the part which cause men the most problems (or so it would appear). However, that’s only one piece of it,  and along with the unrealistic standards they have for men, they get other messages, to include similar unrealistic standards for themselves.

    We all know about the impossible standards of female beauty they are offered up as the expected norm in this media-driven culture. This typically includes a body image only a tiny handful of them can attain while being remotely healthy. Eating disorders, and a warped and distorted image of their own bodies (body dysmorphic disorder) are only a part of the anxiety and insecurity they feel as a result, and typically, this rises far beyond what the popular culture inflicts on us, both on its own, and through the impossible standards for men it encourages in women.  The only real difference is, they are allowed to feel and show those insecurities openly, while we aren’t ( at least, not without being mocked scorned and rejected by them). That’s not necessarily such a privilege for them; it might look that way when we’re younger, but being forced to “man up” and get over it actually makes us stronger in the long run. Those of us who fight that battle and manage to win it usually are done with it at that point; beyond that, we get both comfortable and confident with ourselves, warts and all. A great many women aren’t so lucky; their anxieties and insecurities, especially about their physical appearance, are not only allowed to openly exist, and even fester; these are constantly reinforced by their female peers, by society’s continuing messages, and yes, by us. Whether they complain about it, hide it behind a thin veneer of confidence, deny its importance, or simply refuse to acknowledge it, rest assured that most women feel that, and feel it keenly, and the older they get, the worse they feel about it. That’s important, because it’s one component of what actually drives a lot of female attitudes and behaviors that don’t seem to make any sense at all, from our point of view. Here is where we’re going to tie my part of this discussion into do some valid points Jeremy raised, because this set of insecurities is one of the roots of an emotion that drives a lot of what many if not most women feel, and they way they experience life…and their interactions with us.

    That emotion, is fear, and women encounter it in ways and quantities far different from anything we experience. Some of the things that will trigger it might seem surprising  to most of us, until we think about it a bit. As adult men, assuming we’re relatively normal, we don’t face fear very often. There isn’t much physical fear for us, except for the odd encounter with violent crime, or a disaster. Other than that unless we work in a high-risk job, or engage in adrenaline-seeking behavior, there isn’t much, and doing those things is a choice. Now, let’s look at what women face. Bear in mind they are generally smaller than we are, have less upper body strength, and usually are not as adapted to aggression and violence as we are. I don’t know if it’s as true today, but when I was growing up, facing down the schoolyard or neighborhood bully  (and beating the snot out of him) was pretty much a male rite of passage that most of us experienced. One way or another, most of us develop some confidence in being able to take care of ourselves, if we have to. Most women do not, and that makes their world physically a far more threatening place. Just for example, a woman walks down the street, past a construction site. Out ring the usual catcalls, and occasionally other remarks, suggestions, propositions, etc.. from the workmen. To us, that’s trivial; harmless, just guys being guys, cutting up. To a woman, that can be extremely intimidating, whether the male voice is wearing a hardhat or a business suit. He’s a stranger, he’s larger and stronger than she is, and she can’t be certain of his intent. All she really knows, is that she didn’t ask for the attention, doesn’t want it, didn’t display any indicator of interest like she uses to invite a man into her space…and he’s there anyway. That’s enough to trigger her fear. There’s a lot of arguing over what the real incidence of sexual assault on women is, because it’s often unreported, especially when it doesn’t rise to the level of full-fledged rape, but we know it happens, and we know it’s not especially rare. We also know that statistically, the perpetrator is more likely to be someone she knows, a date, a family member, even a domestic partner. That’s of little comfort to a woman who’s either been a victim, or knows other women who have been; I’ll take a guess that probably is a pretty high percentage. The lesson she is likely to take from that knowledge: any man is a potential threat, to a degree she may not be able to immediately evaluate. To her, that can be pretty scary; is he one of the vast majority of us who would never harm her, or one of those few predators who will; the latter, after all, don’t exactly go around with “Rapist” tattooed on their forehead. All she can be certain of is that some level of threat is part of her daily existence. It doesn’t stop there; That larger, taller male she’s attracted to; the one she dates, or is in a relationship with, or marries, can be either a protector, or a dangerous threat, if he turns on her. I’ve answered enough domestic violence calls to know what can happen next. The typical woman is no match for her boyfriend, or husband, especially if he’s drunk, high, or just angry and out of control. Usually, she’s going to get hurt, sometimes badly beaten. It happens; it happens a lot, and again, if any given woman hasn’t been a victim herself, I promise you she knows more than one other woman who has been. The potential threat may be low, but it’s always there, at least somewhere in the back of her mind.

    Now, in addition to her fears of physical violence, she also has social fears. We can relate to that. How do you feel if you have to make a speech in public, and you’re not used to that? Pretty scary? Is to most. How about fear of rejection when you cold-approach a woman? Mouth getting a little dry? Knees feel a little wobbly? Feeling a little anxious and tongue-tied? Afraid she might really embarrass you? Most of us have known the feeling, even if we’ve long since gotten over it. That’s social fear, and it can be pretty powerful, right? It might surprise you to know how much of that, on levels and over matters you and I don’t have to deal with as men, a woman may experience every single day, at work, at a party, when she’s with her friends, or even on a date. We’ll start looking at some of that in my next post. It explains an awful lot of why what they say and do, isn’t always what it looks like to us.

    1. 13.1
      Kenley

      Thank you, Buck 25,

      I have never read a better description of what it often feels like to be a woman.

  14. 14
    Buck25

    Kenley,

    Glad I got that part of it right; just trying to put some truth (as I see it anyway) out here. Let’s see how I do with the next part

    1. 14.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Buck,

      You absolutely nailed it.  Especially how a woman experiences street harassment.

      When I was a kid, both my sister and I had more restrictions about where we could go, and at what time of day, and who with, than our younger brother did because safety.  Then the John Wayne Gacy case exploded in the news.  Before that it never occurred to my parents that something that bad could happen to a teen boy.  Even now I reflexively avoid walking by a panel van when in a parking lot.

      I know it’s outside the scope of Adrian’s questions, but I hope some day you or our other male community members can explain what men get out of cat-calling strange women passing them by on the street.

      Looking forward to the next installment.

      And Adrian, I hope you are feeling a little better.  At work I used to get the reverse gender experience sometimes, being the only woman in a roomful of men.  I heard some things I would have rather been kept in the dark about!

      1. 14.1.1
        Buck25

        GWTF,

        Before I get into this next part, let me take that one question you had about cat calling, etc. Mostly it’s just posturing, showing off a little machismo to the rest of the guys, a little flaunting of male sexuality. Most don’t think far enough to see why it would make women feel threatened (to the guys, it’s just words, after all),  which is why I put it out there. I’ve heard some  (not a lot, but some) claim they thought some women secretly like the behavior. They may get that from the way they’ve seen some  (usually rather young) women respond to over-the-top alpha behavior from some PUA types in bars. The concept that that’s a completely different context apparently doesn’t register. Monkey see, monkey do? Possibly.

  15. 15
    Buck25

    Ok guys, moving along with the discussion of social fear as women experience it.  Let’s take one of the real big ones first. Understand this one, and you’ll understand a lot more about women’s attitudes, and the actions that flow from them.  The key word is Judgement, and we can add in its close cousin, shame. This operates on a whole different way for women,than it so does for us.

    We all of course, get judged by other people, so we know how that feels. Hell, women judge us all the time, don’t they? Everything from how we dress, to how we look, to how we act, where we took them on a date; they’ll even check to see if our shoes are shined! So they’re the picky ones, right? They’re the ones who’ll parse every word we say, looking for a reason to reject us. A lot of them will shit test us repeatedly, to make sure we’re really congruent with how we present ourselves. I know the feeling; feels like a combination of standing a full dress parade inspection and the Spanish Inquisition, right ? You like that feeling?  Well, as bad as that feels, take that, and imagine  all that and more extending into everything from conversations with your friends, to every woman you encounter. While you’re at it, imagine being judged for the mere fact that you had sex with a woman, what kind of sex you had with her,when you had sex with her, etc. etc. We guys are pretty free by comparison. We can pretty much say what we feel, short of telling your boss to F***off, starting a riot, or maybe starting a fight. Short of that, there are damn few real consequences we need to lose any sleep over, and mostly we don’t. Society may sometimes give us some negative messages, and religion might try to shame us for some of our behavior, but mostly we don’t really have to care. The worst that’s going to happen, is that some behaviors /comments may help us get laid, and some may keep us from getting laid. For a woman, it’s a different story, one that can often make her feel damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t. She can and often will get labelled by us, by society, by her friends,  based on what she does, who she does it with and when she does it. She will get labelled for what she says, how she says it, where she says it and who she says it to. This is especially true with her social and especially sexual behavior. Her life is a balancing act, and she can feel like everybody’s watching, while she tries to walk a tightrope over a minefield. Yes, really!

    A woman gets a ton of messages about who she’s supposed to be, and how she’s supposed to act. Her harshest critics can be other women, including her friends. A lot of this stems from the idea that having the keys to what we want(sex) will give her the key to what she wants (a relationship, with the guy she wants). That’s half right. What actually happens is, the sex, or the promise of it, may get us to hang around long enough, for us to find the other things that make us want to have that relationship. However, let her be convinced that sex is the only thing she has that we value enough to think about committing to her (and you have to admit that a lot of us, a lot of the time, do a lot to create just that impression) and she (and most women) jumps to the conclusion that sex is the currency with which relationships are purchased. The “logic” that follows from that assumption, among women, is this: any woman who gives sex up too easily or too often, is devaluing the common currency. Therefore she is an enemy of the sisterhood of women. To a woman, the more another woman gives up, and the more often, the less her own “currency” is worth. Guess what the label is? If you said “slut”, go to the head of the class. That’s right, that’s what she gets, for the same behavior that makes us a “stud” at best, and a “player” at worst. Then on top of that, how do we show our appreciation for the women we are doing that with? Come on guys, we’ve all said it, haven’t we? Come on, you know we have. “Whore”,  “slut”, “easy”, etc. Now hopefully, we didn’t say it to her face, but we damn sure say it with each other, some people talk and that gets around. That is not a label a woman wants to wear. It goes beyond that though. Let her flit a little too obviously, be just a little too blatant, act a little too DTF? Women notice that. Even her women friends do, and they talk, sometimes a lot. She does it too much, she can find herself ostracized by some of them. And about those friends; she values them. She values them a lot, because her friendships are not like the ones that we have with each other. Those friendships are a big part of her emotional support network. They are a source of validation and reassurance, they are who she confides in. They are a safe place for her to vent (you know how much we like listening to her do that, right?). She is vulnerable there, in a way she often cannot be with us, unless in a very close relationship. She dreads any and all judgment and shaming from that quarter, especially. That by the way, is after the somewhat contradictory messages she gets from us, and the ones she gets from society at large, from her upbringing, from religion. For a woman, those messages about what “nice girls don’t do” are real, and scary; more judgement, more potential shaming. She goes too far the other way, and she’s called a “prude”, or a “frigid bitch”. She has to walk a line, between getting the attention of the men she’s interested in, without inviting the whole male world into her space. Then she’s got to give enough to try to keep him, long enough to find out if he’s for real, without being made to feel like a piece of meat, while not being labelled a selfish user who strings men along. We don’t deal with that part, all we have to do, by comparison, is try to get laid. We may feel bad, even rejected, when she says no. How does that compare to feeling like she’s being treated “like a blow-up sex doll with a pulse”? You really want to know? I don’t.  You wonder why women aren’t more direct, why they seem to speak in code? Because guys, they have to! They do it in self-defense. They’re afraid of being judged, by us, and by other women; they’re afraid that if they told us what they really want, they’d be handing us a blueprint and a ready made invitation that says, “Here’s how to seduce me, so you can use me, and throw me away”. Those are problems we don’t have, but that is her world, from her point of view. Is that balancing act beginning to sound like walking in those stilettos she wears? I wouldn’t  want to have to try either, myself.

    Wait though, it gets better. Remember those fantasies I mentioned? A lot of them are sexual, and if you think we have a dirty mind, it pales beside some of theirs. Imagine thinking about sex as much as we do, without doing it nearly as much, with nearly as many partners, for some of the reasons we just discussed, and the fact that a woman’s sexuality is tied up with her emotional being in ways ours never will be. Then imagine being labelled for talking about the resulting fantasies, or imagining what everyone (including your friends, or any guy you date) would think of you if they had any idea you actually thought about THAT. Show too much of that in a new relationship, and the guy is going to wonder just how much you’ve been around. Don’t show enough, you’re an ice queen with too many hang-ups. Those are the ones WE inflict, by the way. You beginning to understand why sometimes it’s a lot easier and less complicated for a woman to just curl up in bed with a “rabbit” and a copy of “Fifty Shades”?  That easy street with dating and sex you think she has, is starting to look a little less easy, and a lot more complicated, now, huh?

    Let’s let those thoughts hang in the air for a while, shall we? There’s a long way to go yet, including a lot more of what happens for a woman when those complicated emotions really collide with our world view.

     

    1. 15.1
      Chance

      Hi Buck25, a fair amount of truth here.  However, there’s also a fair amount that may have applied to the women of your generation, but apply much less so to millennial women (specifically as it relates to the amount of judgement and shaming they receive from society at large).  That said, young women certainly do still get judged and shamed by their intrasexual competitors.

      1. 15.1.1
        Buck25

        Chance,

        Fair point. Some of this applies more to my generation, (and to Gen X and Gen Y women), than to  Millennial women, who don’t appear as affected by societal, religious or cultural judgement and shaming as those before them. However, what they get from their “intrasexual competitors” (love that term, do you mind if I steal that one in future references?), and frankly, from a good many men as well, seems to more than make up for that in many instances. They can get more than enough guilt, shame confusion and insecurity from that to add to their other sources of angst which we haven’t even touched  on yet. Bear in mind that age group are not the women I date; mostly I know them from the perspective of  a friend and mentor, which is how they see a man my age. I see them as children, mostly;  still learning to navigate the minefield, on their way to becoming a full-grown adult woman; many of them still trying to come to terms with everything from calibrating themselves socially to really discovering their own sexuality. They’re still learning the dance as they go, and their steps and turns are so complicated. So many times their progress is slow; they still have their times when they’re far from what they try to project, and inside they’re a hurting little ball of confusion, sometimes so impulsive, sometimes so tentative and hesitant.

        That age is not an easy life stage, not for young guys, not for young women.   You know though, I’m willing to bet that those same girls Adrian overheard bragging to their friends, also spend some other nights crying themselves to sleep. Most of them honestly don’t mean to hurt anyone, they just are so wrapped up in their own tangled feelings, they don’t have the bandwidth to think about how guys feel, much less have any real empathy for them.

        I guess if I’d ask anything of the guys who date these young women, it would be to try to be patient with them. Try to understand it’s not as easy for them as you might think. They’re going to mess up, sometimes in ways you wouldn’t. Sometimes they hurt guys; sometimes they hurt themselves. Just like you, they aren’t angels, and they aren’t devils, just struggling to make sense of it all. They’re doing what they think they have to do; they aren’t trying to be liars, or cheats. It’s hard to understand them, but try to cut them some slack; and if you can, try to be a little protective of them, even when it’s hard. Try not to get angry and lash out at them, even when you think they deserve it; it won’t help them, or you. You don’t have to pander to them, or give them everything they say they want; they don’t need that. Just try to be the kind of man they can lean on when they need to. You do that, you’ll have done ok by them.

        1. Chance

          “However, what they get from their “intrasexual competitors” (love that term, do you mind if I steal that one in future references?)”

           

          Not a problem at all, brother.

  16. 16
    Marika

    Tom10

    Marry me 😊

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