Are Women Good, and Men Bad?

Are Women Good, and Men Bad?

According to author Suzanne Venker, “the so-called rise of women has not threatened men. It has pissed them off… Men want to love women, not compete with them. They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them.”

When Venker asks men why they don’t want to get married, men say the same thing over and over:

“Women aren’t women anymore.”

Venker’s article on Fox News, and her new book, “How to Choose a Husband (and Make Peace with Marriage)” are decidedly controversial. I think Venker knows this and plays up her message, shifting the the blame for all relationship problems from men to women. This, I think, is a mistake. One gender is not to blame for all ills. Not men. Not women.

I wrote to Venker and asked her to send a copy of her book, so if I think it has any merit, I can share it with my readers. Without having read it, I can only respond to what she wrote in this one article.

If you date men, then, predictably, MEN are going to be the problem.

And while I don’t agree with her hyperbolic language about women “surrendering to their femininity,” which really does sound like some sort of flashback to the 1950′s, I do think there she has a point about women sharing responsibility for their relationship failings.

I go to great pains on this blog to establish the same concept, and receive a good amount of pushback for it. As Venker wrote, “After decades of browbeating the American male, men are tired. Tired of being told there’s something fundamentally wrong with them. Tired of being told that if women aren’t happy, it’s men’s fault.”

This is, by and large, true. Just as women should rightfully be outraged that Venker “blames” women and feminism for today’s relationship woes, men are outraged that we are always perceived as the problem. It’s all a matter of perspective.

If you date men, then, predictably, MEN are going to be the problem.

But if you date women (like men do), you may logically conclude that women are, at least part of the problem. After all, women are the ones who have changed more dramatically in the past 40 years. In gaining equality, they’ve embraced many male characteristics, blurred gender roles, and muddied the waters when it comes to work, money, responsibility, leadership, etc. This isn’t a bad thing and I’m not trying to go backwards or put the genie back in the bottle.

However, as a result of these changes, women are dissatisfied with men, men are dissatisfied with women, and both tend to play the blame game.

That doesn’t fly here. Look in the mirror, figure out who you are, figure out what you need, and you can find a complementary life partner, instead of blaming the opposite sex. What does that mean for my smart, strong, successful women? Well, it probably means that you should get used to equality. You will now have the same dating dilemmas as men.

If you’re an alpha female, better get used to the idea that certain men don’t find you attractive. Better get used to the idea that you may have to be the primary breadwinner. Better get used to the idea that the best fit for you is a more easygoing man, instead of the most “impressive” man.

In short, by becoming equal to men, women had better be willing to “date down” with someone who is less driven, educated, wealthy or ambitious.

Alas, we men have never called it “dating down”. We just called it dating.

And we liked being able to choose partners based on kindness, fun, laughter, attraction, values and compatibility.

I hope women learn to value men for the same reasons, instead of height, education, and income. Because whether you agree with Suzanne Venker or not, you have to admit, changing gender roles make relationships more confusing than ever before.

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Comments:

  1. 61
    marymary

    Morris
    i asked my boyfriend out.  being just friends and waiting was causing me too much frustration. Also, other women were coming onto him and one of them asked him out right in front of me. i figured that if I didn,t do something I,d be friend zoned for life.
    i hadn’t,t asked a man out before, the ceiling didn.t cave in and five months later we are still together.
    turns out he didn,t think I liked him that way. there is one generalisation about men that I do support – not very good at getting hints. the plus side to that is there can be something refreshingly straightforward about dealing with men. 

  2. 62
    Helen

    Morris 63: I agree completely.
     
    With this newfound liberation in women’s career opportunities should also come a newfound liberation in the realm of relationships.  Women SHOULD ask men out, and should, as you say, “go get what they want” instead of “picking from the men that ask them out.”
     
    I’ve always taken objection to the argument that women should sit back and be passive and let the men ask them out, because “Men like to pursue.”  Well, guess what: I like to pursue, too. Why should men be allowed to pursue, and not I? If we were being honest with ourselves, we would say that HUMANS like to pursue.  It’s part of our proactive animal nature; it’s not just confined to one sex.  The corresponding argument to women to be passive: “See, you have the easy job! All you have to do is sit back and relax and embrace your ‘feminine power.’ “ is BS.  No one likes to just sit back and wait; that’s not our nature, neither males nor females. Sitting back and doing nothing isn’t “feminine power.” It’s a completely powerless position.
     
    That’s where Venker completely trips herself up in her last paragraph about embracing our true natures. Men and women aren’t as different as traditional constructs would have us believe. We want to live, we want to be active. In the end, it is wisest to follow her advice, but not in the way she thinks. We SHOULD embrace our true and proactive natures; it makes for a happier society.

  3. 63
    Nancy

    I have a hard time believing that EVERY man she interviewed said they NEVER want to get married because “Women stopped being women”.  In fact, I downright disbelieve that statement. (Many men admit that they won’t marry, because they want to remain free to have sex with as many women as possible) Perhaps that was a reason given by some, or even MANY men, but I don’t believe it is possible to ask a question of a large sample of the population and get a unanimous answer.  The writer has an agenda here, and facts be damned.  Also, considering the number of women who never embraced feminism, and who are still very traditionally feminine, that answer doesn’t hold water.  If a man really wanted to marry a traditional woman, he could find one, instead of refusing to ever marry because not every woman on the planet meets his criteria.
    I do believe the feminist movement has it’s pros & cons, one of the cons being strained personal relationships between men & women, but this article lays 100% of the blame on women & “femnism” which is what I have come to expect from anything from “the Faux Network”
     
     

  4. 64
    Alpha Girl

    Katrina #58
    Well said! I Love it! As being an American women, I really appreciate everything you said. The western woman is helping to change the world As women. Even though I get upset about dating, I thank my lucky stars that I’m American and I have a choice.

  5. 65
    Alpha Girl

    Morris #63
    Well said. I love that too. Men are more visual. Lol so am I! If he gets to keep asking women out art attracted to eventually one will say yes. Women get the short end of the stick to have to choose from what is avalible to them if they wait to be asked out. Kudus to you. Best advice ever. If you like a guy let him know it. Ask him out. You’ll have the same amount of rejection as a man if you put it that way but then your bound to get someone you want rather the other way around. But maybe the best would be you both ask each other out at the same time!! Yay. Then whoot!! Lol!

  6. 66
    Nancy

    I meant to say that I have a hard time believing that EVERY man interviewed who stated that they NEVER want to get married all gave the same answer.

  7. 67
    Anita

    Yay Nathan @34 and Juia @46! And EMK, you can’t fuel the fire by trying to justify the wage gap and then cry foul that we’re off topic. Not fair!!!
    Besides, I hardly think that stereotypes about how each gender will behave in a given circumstance is off topic, since we’re talking about how those stereotypes just don’t fit anymore and people are therefore getting confused about how to behave when it comes to personal relationships.
    Re women working, which seems to me to be quite on topic: In companies (I have worked in several Fortune 100) you meet all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds, in all sorts of personal living situations. Gay, straight, married, divorced, ever-single, kids, no kids, hate kids, going through the fertility treatment grind, etc. There is no way for a non-prejudiced person to be able to tell from the personal details of any employee (which is against the law to ask about) how that employee will behave in any given work situation. If you operate from personal prejudice, however, you will believe that you can. That’s why employers aren’t allowed to ask for those details. Anymore. Thank god for progress!! 

    1. 67.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Actually, Anita, I can do whatever I want. It’s my blog. And I’m far more interested in the dating implications of equality than in debating how real and/or significant the wage gap is in the United States.

  8. 68
    Ruby

     
    EMK #60
     
    “The real question is whether the changes in women over the past 40 years have negatively impacted their ability to find happy partnerships, and what, if anything can women do about it themselves (presuming that you can’t change men)?
     
    Personally, I don’t think the changes that women have experienced have had a “negative” effect in this regard, but I do think that there can be some confusion regarding gender roles, i.e.: who pays, who asks for the first date, who takes the lead. It seems to me that dating is a last bastion of traditional roles for men and women. Dating advisers still, for the most part, encourage women to let men take the lead. In my observation, both men and women expect this, and it’s generally (although not always) what works in dating.
     
    I also don’t believe that men are more reluctant to marry because “women aren’t women anymore.” That’s an incredibly shallow and short-sighted view. Many men don’t want to give up their freedom, and are freer to reject marriage/having children than in the past. So are women. I do believe that women are more inclined to want to marry for love, rather than just for the financial support, or because everyone else is married by age 30, or whatever.
     
    Call me old-school, but I still believe that the personal is the political. The wage gap does affect a woman’s ability to provide for herself, which impacts her ability to be self-sufficient. How many women have stayed in bad relationships because, financially, they felt they had no other alternative?

    1. 68.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Ruby – You’d do a lot better with your argument if you at least conceded the validity of the other side. Instead, comments like, “I also don’t believe that men are more reluctant to marry because “women aren’t women anymore,” pretty much suggest that Venker is entirely making up her observations about men’s dissatisfaction with American women. She’s not. Because you’ve seen it even in this blog for smart, strong, successful women – there are a decent number of guys who are having a hard time finding women who are feminine, nurturing, supportive, as opposed to busy, critical, and difficult. It’s not that you can’t be busy AND supportive, but let’s not pretend that every female partner at a law firm has the capacity to give certain men the traits that they desire the most. Eventually, everybody finds his/her fit, I hope, but the reason I posted Venker’s black and white piece is that she’s talking about a real and observable phenomenon. And the answer to it is not to deny the very premise, because you’d be denying a certain reality.

  9. 69
    Ileana

    Helen @66: Although i usually find your posts spot on, but this line here is something i really do not agree with: ‘Women SHOULD ask men out‘.
    Now, why SHOULD women do that? I think women SHOULD do that if that’s how they want to approach relationships. But that doesn’t mean ALL WOMEN should do that if they fancy a guy. Some like being pursued, some like pursuing. Everybody SHOULD be allowed to do whatever matches their inner nature and makes them happy.
     
    Personally, asking a man out is something i would never do. Because it makes me too vulnerable and i don’t like that. Maybe i’m not ‘man’ enough :P Sure, maybe he says yes, but then i would be asking myself, why? – is it because he likes me, or because he was bored and had nothing to do? If he liked me that much, why didn’t he come to me first?.. then, it goes downhill from there.
     
    ‘  The corresponding argument to women to be passive: “See, you have the easy job! All you have to do is sit back and relax and embrace your ‘feminine power.’ “ is BS.  No one likes to just sit back and wait; that’s not our nature, neither males nor females. Sitting back and doing nothing isn’t “feminine power.” It’s a completely powerless position.’
     
    I actually think that ‘passive’ is not the right word here to describe those women who are being pursued. As I see it, i think it is quite an active state, because you don’t just ‘sit back and wait’ (although, some actually just sit there and do nothing and… guess what? nothing happens). You have to send the all right signals and give the green light for being approached, ie. holding his gaze a while, smiling, etc. etc etc. I see it as having the upper hand here, because if he doesn’t approach, he’s most probably not interested and gets to communicate it by not doing anything, therefore you don’t get to be rejected verbally. I also don’t think that going and striking up a conversation with him in the lines of ‘do you know how i can get to x” or’ could you help me find my phone’ or ‘where is the nearest cafe’ etc can be called passive. You put yourself in the position of being approached. If he doesn’t approach, maybe he’s not interested, maybe he’s in a relationship already, maybe he likes men too or maybe he just didn’t notice the opportune moment hitting him in the face and, by doing so, he is most probably not my type. 
     
    Well, guess what: I like to pursue, too. Why should men be allowed to pursue, and not I?’
    Well, in this case, you’re lucky, because nowadays you are pretty much allowed to do anything you want. It is not frowned upon by society, and some men actually prefer it. 
     
    As long as some people don’t try to impose their views on others, I’m all for it :)

  10. 70
    Lucy

    The way I see it men are pretty puritanical. By that I mean that their tastes haven’t changed much over time, but with a bit of gender equality thrown into the mix as well. It’s not a criticism, I just don’t think it possible to be idealistic about what men want. So I choose to be discrete about certain things. All the article does is make some uncomfortable truths known. 
    Personally I don’t see how being feminine harms gender equality so it doesn’t bother me. I’d be naive to think otherwise. I don’t let the thought of what men think stop me from doing certain things but I sure as hell won’t tell them about it. I have the freedom to reveal whatever I want to. I admire high achieving strong woman. I think they’re great. I don’t see how acting feminine undermines feminism though. It’s totally separate. How I choose to act will give me various results, but not any result more desirable than the other, just one suitable for me. I feel uncomfortable saying this, but sometimes, for some women, being equal means not being feminine and dropping any feminine attributes. If I did that myself, I wouldn’t be being true to myself. But I think some others are masculine or feminine anyway, regardless of gender, and they do whatever they are comfortable with. 
    I don’t blame men ceaselessly for hurting me. Well don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to stand up and call them out on bad behaviour. However I’m part of that too if I’ve ever accepted it. If I haven’t accepted it, they do get a telling though. Sometimes I don’t say anything, not because I don’t care or have no balls, but because I know that flawed people, regardless of gender, are not going to change, and there’s no point wasting my energy. With a lot of stuff in life, including relationships to some extent, it’s better to take the “fuck it” philosophy (sorry for the swear), take a step forward and try to forget the pain as best you can. Once you fall into the realm of bitterness, all you is harm your potential.
    I agree with what you said in the article. It’s hard to know what you want. Sometimes you think you do but you don’t. I think perfection is a bland consumer product and I don’t want it. However, trying to drop some imaginary qualities out of the equation for me, is still a bit difficult.

  11. 71
    Lucy

    @Katrina #58 – I agree that the legal system can sometimes act more in favour of men than women. That’s a hard thing to change. However I believe it can go against men too.
    And you said: “This author should be shot for further trying to make women vulnerable and oppress them.” Yeah before I say anything, I’m politically independent and a centrist. Your comment smacks of typical leftist hypocrisy. No one deserves to be shot. So if you really believe in equality, you wouldn’t say something so aggressive. No one deserves to die simply because they are on a different side of the political spectrum to you.

  12. 72
    marymary

    But there are a decent no of women who are having trouble finding men who aren’t narcissits and players or the disappeared.  We tell them to pick better.  If men are constantly bumping up against critical, difficult women then they need to pick better?  I know these women exist, my mother was like that. It may be that for whatever reason those are the women they find attractive.  Don’t ask me why.  I know why I found abusive and cheating men attractive but that took me months of therapy!  I don’t need not to be critical and difficult, in fact when I look back I could have stood to be MORE critical instead of being so easygoing.
    if you are indeed the parter in a law firm you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you want a man who is more successful and earns more than you.  I do know a good no. of female partners who are in relationships/married.  They are on a par with their partners or “higher”, at least in terms of income.  They can’t all ”marry up”. If Margaret Thatcher and the Queen can find a husband, so can you.  But note their husbands were happy to take the supportive role.  And I expect that at home they put down their “leader” hat and put on the “wife” one.  If you’re really busy and can afford it, get a cleaner/housekeeper and neutralise the housework conflict at least.
    if you find yourself with a man you can’t respect and are trying to nag, criticise, mind-control him into someone you can, do both of you a favour and either accept him as he is or cut him loose. Also, don’t expect a man to mind-read or wave a magic wand and give you the happy-ever-after. That way you won’t be contributing to this problem.  I’m not sure it is such a big problem in reality but I’m not American. I find that my female American colleagues are polite, gracious and helpful (more so than my English ones).  if they are morphing into biyatches in their relationships I’m curious as to why.
    there is such a thing as the male ego. In the same way that we like to be told that we’re pretty, kind, fun to be with with, cooked a nice dinner, whatever, men appreciate the thank you for taking out the trash, paying for stuff, or carrying the groceries even if you think it’s his job.  I don’t personally but I was single for over five years and did all that myself.  I’m very appreciative of my boyfriend’s help.  Good men like helping women.  I have two brothers and feel very looked after when I am with them. Let them do it.
    Don’t let small niggles get bigger and bigger and bigger.  Is it worth upsetting yourself and someone you profess to love?
    and physical affection smooths over a multitude of stresses and strains.
     

  13. 73
    Ellen

    I don’t think Venker entirely made her “results” up either, but she definitely has an agenda. Good scientists don’t start with an agenda- they go where the data/facts take them.
    Re generalizations about men, it would say so much depends upon the man’s age and living situation (divorced with small kids, single, life-long single, etc.). In general I find younger men under 35 usually incredibly reluctant to marry unless lightning hits, and even then! lol
    Men in their 40s are either desperate to stop dating and find someone or THE biggest players on the planet.
    Now here’s where it flip flops often and where I have the most experience: Men in their fifties. Here in SC the men I dated 50+ were either incredibly cynical about the dating scene/future marriage and stated on their profiles they were up for relationships when really they wanted to just have sex with as many women as possible.
    A small subset feels death at their door or not far off and are INCREDIBLY willing to commit and do so in haste imo. Women in their 50s, the overwhelming majority of them, have experienced marriage and decidedly don’t want that. I find myself in the middle: I would marry to give my bf health benefits, but with Obamacare I shouldn’t have to in another year or so.
    In general, what men are bemoaning is the modern’s woman’s recent (historically) choosiness (I hear this from my early 40s male platonic friends).  We don’t have to settle anymore. THAT is a good thing. Men then choose to interpret that as arrogance I think. Or inability to be feminine (accepting enough), nurturing, supportive. Dating is brutal and women, like men, have learned to weed out the undesirable FAST. Maybe men are interpreting THAT as unfeminine, I don’t know.
    In the mini-relationships I was in in a three year period I was always feminine, nurturing and supportive to my little pseudo bfs. They seldom returned the favor, so I really just had a series of “friends with benefits” really, looking back.
    Also, the three years I was dating I seldom dated down even though I am in my fifties (I lied about my age, and have commented about that a lot on this blog, but I digress)- I contacted men of nearly all ages who were good looking but whom I thought had character and sweetness on some level. Who, I decided, had GOOD hearts after a date or two. Sex was important to me also so attraction was key. I didn’t want to waste my time or theirs….
    What is less clear to me is whether women and men ALL chase ONLY the top 10% of the meat market (another generalization maybe). They may do this initially, but the smart person learns to stop being so choosy. Unfortunately, what happens is these people drop out of dating, get discouraged. And that is a shame. imho
     
     
     

  14. 74
    Jenna

    Morris – I totally, 100 percent agree that women need to be more proactive to ensure they’re getting the kinds of guys they want and deserve. From my own observations as a late twentysomething looking at my friends and associates of the same age, I can tell you that many great guys just don’t approach girls much, or may not even believe in online dating. When you only choose from those who ask you out, you’re not as likely to end up with the man and the relationship you want, and you may have to settle for the duds and players and uglies. That doesn’t mean you go around walking up to strangers and asking them to dinner, that wouldn’t work. But it does mean you write to men online in a flirtatious, fun way, that you build yourself up a great social life, that when you walk into a bar or other social venue you learn to talk to everyone in the room – bartenders, women, old guys, cute guys – to give great guys every possible chance to meet you without seeming as though you are singling any one out. You’re just being a social, fun person. This can also mean throwing monthly dinner parties or other events to invite your friends and a couple new people each time – all low pressure and generally social.
    Arden Leigh wrote a good book about this recently, called “The New Rules of Attraction,” and she’s gotten guys to commit to her even though she doesn’t follow traditional “rules” about never initiating contact. This was particularly helpful for people like me, who grew up not being all that social/flirtaious then wondering why never initiating wasn’t working all that well for me. Women should try a bunch of things and see what works and feels best for them.

  15. 75
    Tom10

    Helen, Alpha Girl & Morris
    Re women asking men out.
     
    In this new era of women asking men out, I presume you all think that when women ask out men they should then pay for these dates, bring him flowers and then maybe hope for some sex at the end of the date too?
     
    In that case I’m all for women asking men out :)
     
    Sometimes I think it’d be great if women took the initiative – it’d make it so much easier for me. Something tells me though, that I’m not sure if I’d take a woman seriously who had to ask me out, rather than play her cards more traditionally. I.e. it’d be very tempting to take what’s on offer for a few weeks or months and not bother making any effort.
     
    Depends on the situation I guess.

  16. 76
    Cat5

    For me, the biggest issue was that as a child of the 60s, I watched my grandmothers, mother, and aunts stay in unhappy and often emotionally and physically relationships because they did not think they had the option to get out.  The number one reason they thought that they couldn’t leave: their lack of education and skills to care for themselves and their children financially in the way their husband could.  The number two reason they thought that they couldn’t leave: divorcees were considered bad and loose women.
     
    As a young girl, I promised myself that I would get the education and skills to care for myself and my children so that if I, god forbid, found myself in an abusive relationship, I would not stay “for the sake of the children” or because I could not care for myself financially.
     
    For the record Evan — I am both feminine, nurturing, supportive, and busy, critical, and difficult.   Sometimes all in the same sentence!  Sometimes at different times.  It’s called being human.  I will add that it is easier for me to be feminine, nuturing and supportive, when my man is being masculine, nuturing and supportive.  A relationship is a two-way street and both parties have to do their part. 

    (And which part can you control, Cat? – EMK)

  17. 77
    Ruby

    EMK #74
     
    Of the problems I’ve had in relationships, finding a man who is progressive and feminist hasn’t been one of them. I just don’t date men who feel differently and they don’t date me. Venker’s premise that there is “war on men” is nothing more than anti-feminist, inflammatory hyperbole.
     
    Are there some men who don’t like the fact that the female lawyer in your example is a type A woman? Sure. But wouldn’t they be better off looking for a woman who is more laid-back or traditional, with a less-demanding career? Those women are certainly out there. And, as you have said before, the high-powered lawyer might also do well to look at men who are more laid-back, with less demanding careers.
     
    I do agree that the lawyer might need to make more of an effort to show her softer, more nurturing side, as well. I get that if you spend your days in a high-powered, aggressive role that you probably had to fight hard to achieve, it might be hard to turn that down socially.
     
     
     
     
     
     

  18. 78
    LC

    Dating down:  I dated one guy with a child who lost his job, I helped him find another job b/c I have good connections, and he repaid me by knocking up a waitress and moving to Missouri two Christmases ago.  The next guy lost his job, asked me for $20,000, and moved back to Iowa.  The next guy still lives with his parents, works as a courier, goes to college, and “doesn’t want a relationship.”  Men don’t want a relationship if they don’t have a job, and if they have a good job, they don’t want a woman who does.  So it just doesn’t matter what a gal does–take care of yourself and stop worrying about men.

  19. 79
    JustMe

    Evan #74
    I believe a lot of women are still supporting and nuturing.  I would suggest that those men, who claim women aren’t this way anymore, are actually going after the more domineering type of woman.  Like the guys who think all women are crazy because they go for that type or the girls who think no men want commitment because they go for the non-committals. 
     
    Now, if they (the men who think nuturing women don’t exist) think nurturing and supportive means, demurely going along with whatever he says no matter what or always making sure his needs are met  to the exclusion of their own needs/wants/desires and never having an opinion- I really hope that type of woman doesn’t exist.  But, sadly, even she does. 
     

  20. 80
    Karmic Equation

    I truly believe women held the higher ground on RELATIONSHIPs before the rise of feminism.

    Women–and men–prized a women’s sexuality, which could only be gotten through a RELATIONSHIUP with a woman. While the sexual revolution did give women freedom to express their sexuality openly, it actually devalued relationships. That’s what got lost in translation…and most women have bought into the sexual revolution freeing them to be sexual. We were always sexual. But the revolution actually changed RELATIONSHIPS such that it benefited MEN more than women…MEN can now have sex without relationships or marriage and without society frowning on them. Sure WOMEN can have as much sex as they want, too, but now there is no guarantee of a relationship…hence the lamentation of most women on this board.

    If most women on this board are smart and successful (read financially independent), then all this vigorous discussion about wage gaps, etc., is just us getting in our own way and defocusing us from the real problem. Women want relationships and the sexual revolution/feminism devalued that for women. Because feminism taught us that we should be more like men, in business and in sex. But women had the higher ground in sex/relationships…and lost it…And as most of you have pointed out, wage/career-equality has not yet been achieved. So remind me again, who again did feminism benefit more?

    @Helen, Alpha Girl and Morris

    I think I’m one of the most progressive women on this board, e.g., I can have sex without attachment and don’t think that sex = relationship for starters…and therefore, I believe I think and act “like a man” in this respect…But if I recall correctly, in other threads some of the same women who propose that women should ACT like a man (e.g., pursue)…are the sames ones who lament that men should act like WOMEN (e.g., sex = relationship).

    The power in being a woman is getting men to pursue you. Not in pursuing men. If you like men who like being pursued, odds are they’re not going to like you for long. They get creeped out eventually and they’ll question why they’re in the relationship with you (because they really love you or because YOU decided they should love you?). It’s funny, men don’t question themselves if they arrive at the conclusion themselves. That’s why you want men to decide to pursue you in the first place. They are very loyal to their own beliefs.

    IMO, if you can’t get the man you like to pursue you, then maybe you ought to consider that maybe you’re not “woman enough” to be pursued. As long as you have a vagina (sorry to be crass) you can catch any man you pursue. You’re not winning anything. To win as a woman, you have to get the man you want to pursue you. Why do you think that women who get around are called “sluts” while men who get around are called “players.” Because men have to WORK to get the sex they want (ask out, risk rejection, pay for dates, etc), women only have to say yes…there’s no work involved. Again, sorry to be crass, but that is the way it is.

    @Lucy &6 & 77

    Agree with you on both counts.

    @Tom10 #81

    Yes. Exactly! I think it’s wrong that women want their cake and eat it too. Doesn’t fit into the karmic equation of the universe.

    I think you’re either Canadian or British (the “eh?” in one of your posts gave it away)…If you’re ever in the USA, we have to meet and shoot some pool. Just as friends though. You are way too young for me. But I’ll bet the night would fly by with you regaling me with your stories. The ones that are PG enough to share, anyways. LOL

  21. 81
    Alpha Girl

    Tom10 #81
    To answer your question honestly,  I have paid for dates and have bought my guys flowers and little trinkets some like it and some don’t. But if I ask a man out for a date, more than 95% of the time, he offers to pay. I’m not stupid, of course I’m gonna let him pay. My personality is more like you offer to pay, hey fine by me, I don’t need to stop them whom ever they are male or female. Also gifts don’t have to cost a lot of money. It’s the thought that counts. Though sometimes when buying drinks. I offer to buy a round. 

  22. 82
    Alpha Girl

    To everyone, I love this video an the fliaside at the bar. Lol. Check it out, what if the roles were reversed. http://youtu.be/g5DkCJIqkgc 
    I think it’s appropriate to share. And to Karmic Equation #86, you are right. To put it bluntly, it’s the power of the pussy. To be ultra frank, I’d love to marry a man who is my best friend who I am attracted to, who would be wiling to have a open relationship 5years + down the road. I don’t think people are meant to be monogomous. But I’d likes a best friend to have to stay with me until u get old, who I am attracted to. 

  23. 83
    Karmic Equation

    @Alpha Girl 88
     
    I think most married men would welcome an open relationship 5+ years down the road. It’s women who usually don’t want that. Why even be married, though, if that is what you’re looking for down the road? I don’t get that.

  24. 84
    Karl R

    Karmic Equation said: (#86)
    “But the revolution actually changed RELATIONSHIPS such that it benefited MEN more than women [...] Sure WOMEN can have as much sex as they want, too, but now there is no guarantee of a relationship…”
     
    How does this benefit men more than women?
     
    Are you assuming that women only engage in sex in order to gain a relationship? (You don’t seem to be, based on your other statements.)
     
    Are you assuming that men used to be willing to get married just to have sex?
     
    Are you assuming that more women than men want to get married? Within certain limited age ranges (i.e. under 30), that may be true. Overall, the difference (if any) is slight.
     
    I’m not sure where you’re seeing a greater benefit for women rather than men.
     
    Karmic Equation said: (#86)
    “MEN can now have sex without relationships or marriage and without society frowning on them.”
     
    This is new?
     
    I don’t care how far you go back, society frowned on women having sex outside of marriage. Men received minimal (if any) social censure. Look at the old testament definition of adultery: if a man (single or married) has sex with a married woman (not his wife), both are to be stoned. If a man (single or married) has sex with an unmarried woman it’s not considered adultery. That’s the law as it was written. For an example of practical application, look at the new testament story of Jesus and the adulterous woman. The crowd was ready to stone the woman. The man she had sex with (who, by law, should receive the same punishment) got a free pass.
     
    Karmic Equation said: (#86)
    “Why do you think that women who get around are called “sluts” while men who get around are called ‘players.’”
     
    Because the sexual revolution hasn’t reached the point of complete equality yet.
     
    I have to say that I’m amused by your opinion. Women fought for (and largely gained) equality with men, and somehow men benefited more than women. That’s like the women on this thread who claim that dating is unfair because women (having caught/surpassed men in education) now have to marry down.
     
    Either you’re a pessimist who focuses on the bad in every good situation, or men truly are the smarter sex. I’m betting on the former.

  25. 85
    Tom10

    Karmic Equation
    Ha you got me – I knew the game was up a long time ago. There are just too many differences in spelling and phrasing to catch them all. You’re close but I’m none of the above – I’m Irish! Things are pretty similar here to the USA nowadays.
     
    I knew from your first post that I’d get on really well with you if we met. It’d be great to shoot pool with you the next time I’m stateside. I have a few funny stories for you alright but maybe I’ll leave out some of the more outrageous ones :)
     
    Alpha Girl
    Fair enough – I respect that you carry your thinking through to its logical conclusion (or at least offer to).
     
    However, like Karmic Equation and Evan I think that one of the only ways a woman can gauge a man’s interest is by analyzing how he intently he pursues you. By asking him out first you deprive yourself of one of your most basic tools.
     
    The video you linked was funny.

  26. 86
    Alpha Girl

    Karmic Equation # 89 
    i would not tell a guy off the bat that I want an open relationship. I’ve done this in the past before and from experience he’ll run like the plague. Men are very territorial. Like I said its something that has to develop over time with trust. As for why I want to get married. It  definitely has its benefits here in US and in other countries. although nothing in life is a guarantee, I’d like to have a life partner. Someone who may be at my deathbed when I die. Sex is one thing lifelong companionship is another. 
     
    As for Tom10 #91
    the pursuing thing I’ve heard many if times before. I even got engaged to a guy who I wasnt attracted to bcause I knew he was truly interested in me. He wouldn’t take no for an answer. At that point I did what was suggested, pick for my only avalible option. Bad chioce. After that, never again. Most guys who ask me out I’m not physically attracted to. I felt sorry for myself at the time and that I needed to find someone to marry who truly wanted me. Once again worst decision ever. I spent nights making excuses to sleep on the floor. We even lived together he took care of me financially. I was tired of being alone. This was in my mid to late 20′s.

  27. 87
    Alpha Girl

    Sorry for the bad spelling but my iPhone makes a lot of errors when I’m trying to post from non mobile theme. I don’t know why and going back to fix stuff can be a nightmare. 

  28. 88
    Helen

    Karl R 90: Spot on, as usual.
     
    I like to pursue, AND I like being pursued. It’s not as though liking the one prevents you from ever experiencing the other. And it’s not as though you can’t enjoy both! Not just talking about romance here - I’m talking about life. Pursuing a bigger life, whatever that means to you in work or activities or friendships or experiences – and letting them come to you as well.  But you have to put your foot out and take that first step, or the opportunities won’t come your way.
     
    It’s a waste of time to always be worrying about others’ approval: “If I’m too forward, he won’t like me,” etc. If you had hidden your true self around him, would he have 1) approached you, or 2) liked you any better? Some will like you for who you are; others won’t. You might as well be yourself. Your real self always be “right” to some and “wrong” to others, which is good, because you find the right company and the right experiences more easily. Water inevitably finds its own level.

  29. 89
    marymary

    Alpha
    You want lifelong marriage and the benefits of being single?  I fear that this is the dilemma all of us have to come to terms with.  I’ve had to make the conscious decision that to continue my relationship I will have to give up my selfish, lazy, introverted lifestyle (that I love). Sex is the least of it for me!  if you want sex outside the marriage you’re basically saying that the other person is not enough.  Not many men or women can accept that.
    I also don’t think you can spring it on a man five years into your relationship when he trusts you (yeah I know there are exceptions but IN PRACTICE it tends to work that way. It has to mentioned upfront I’m afraid.
    You can’t have everything.  You can have one job, one house, one husband/wife. one citizenship one religion(yes, I know there are exceptions but I’m assuming you’re not a multimillionaire with dual citizenship living in a polygamous society with enough time to worship at several locations). Constantly looking around for other options doesn’t lead to  more happiness, it leads to less. 
    Yes, I do like my job more when I stopped wondering if I could do better. I like my home more when I stopped wondering if I could have bought better. I love my boyfriend more when I shut down other options. Of course, things may change but I can’t dither forever because of “ifs”. If we lived forever we could muddle along regardless. As it is, life is short. Limited time, limited options.

  30. 90
    Ellen

     
    TomT: Can’t wait to get back to Galway. I LOVE Westport also. Very cool place.
    PS I’m a Henessey on my Dad’s side.
    PSS Hope you and Karmic get together.
     

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