My Boyfriend Expressed Doubts When Asking Me to Be His Girlfriend. Should I Worry?

I came across your blog when I first started online dating a few years ago in New York and your advice has helped me navigate the modern dating scene. I’ve always valued your advice because it is no nonsense, practical and mirroring worked for me like a charm.

I’m currently in a new relationship. Like you advised, I politely declined to sleep with my partner until we were exclusive. He was the first to bring up the ‘what do you want with dating’ talk, and I answered honestly that I was looking for a committed exclusive relationship. He followed up by pursuing me hard, committing to me and taking down his profile in quick succession and introducing me to his friends as his girlfriend.

He recently admitted that he did have doubts if he wanted a relationship or was ready even as he asked me, but went with it as he liked me a lot and it was what I wanted. He also affirmed that with time, he knows he made the right decision to commit to me.

I share a similar dating philosophy with your wife. I believe in mulligans and I am grateful that my partner and I are able to talk about us – what a joy to find a man who wants to talk about the relationship! – and I have no desire to punish him for his honesty in any way or to use it to guilt him. His recent affirmation to the commitment also made me reassured. In fact, he has ticked all the boxes that you mentioned in what a man should do for his girlfriend. He is by no means an alpha Marlboro guy and my younger self would have found flaws in him, but my older self agrees with your philosophy in being with the man who treats you well and wants to be with you.

However, I have some niggling fears over his admission that he wasn’t ready when he asked me to be his girlfriend, and that he had doubts even after he had asked me during the early days. I would love to hear your opinion on whether this is a red flag. From my perspective, I appreciate his desire to be honest with me and have no wish to punish him for it. But you have more experience and insight, and I’m sure myself and other female readers would benefit from your thoughts on this.

Margaret

Think about the relationships where you had no doubts whatsoever.

You “just knew” he was your “soulmate” and you’d be together forever.

What happened to ALL those relationships?

You got it! They fell apart. So much for “just knowing.”

I don’t know how long you’ve been with your boyfriend, Margaret.

But if he’s treating you well and is talking about a future with you, it doesn’t matter at all if he had doubts at the beginning.

Doubts are just signs that you’re seeing things clearly and can tell your partner’s flaws.

While it’s no fun to have doubts, they’re necessary before taking the plunge into marriage, lest you end up like the couples who “just knew” but were mistaken.

Doubts are just signs that you’re seeing things clearly and can tell your partner’s flaws.

I famously had doubts about proposing to my wife.

I told my friends.
I told my therapist.
I told Dr. Pat Allen – who told me to dump my wife or I’d end up cheating on her. I even told my girlfriend directly – two weeks before I proposed – that I wasn’t sure what I was going to do, but I knew I had to do it soon because she was 38.

Should she have been scared? Well, yes and no.

Yes, I was admitting that it was in the realm of possibility that we might not get married.

No, there was nothing to be afraid of because my decision was out of her hands.

Many women would have freaked out, dumped me, or tried to extract an ultimatum.

My future wife didn’t.

She knew I was a serious, relationship-oriented man who desired marriage and kids.

She knew I never lied.

And after having a first husband who cheated on her, it was refreshing to be with an honest guy who articulated all of his thoughts and emotions, however painful they might be.

If you’re NOT afraid of making a mistake, you’re not thinking very clearly.

Thus, she put her faith in me that I would come to a conclusion in my own time – despite my admitted reservations about spending the rest of my life with one person.

(Again, if you’re NOT afraid of making a mistake, you’re not thinking very clearly.)

I’m sure it was hard for my wife when I was deciding whether to step up or step out.

But she’s a smart woman with unparalleled people skills and a deep understanding of men.

She knew that if she wanted me to propose, getting nervous wouldn’t help, talking about “us” wouldn’t help, and grilling me wouldn’t help.

She just had to continue to do what she had done for sixteen months before that – be the best girlfriend I’d ever had, accept me as I was, and become indispensable to my happiness.

That’s why she’s my wife instead of Date #301.

So, my friend, allow your man to tell you the truth without punishing him for it. He’ll feel safe that he can be himself with you. You’ll be the only woman who ever let him be honest without flipping out on him. And that’s why he’ll stay with you above all others.

Good luck.

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Comments:

  1. 31
    Jeremy

    Callie,

    We are not talking about 2 different types of validation.  We are talking about the same thing.  I’m not sure if you read the whole conversation last week about sexual meta-goals – I won’t rehash it here.  But an important thing to note is that whatever a person desires from sex, that is what they hope their partner wants too.  The person who wants pleasure wants to give pleasure.  The person who wants novelty expects his partner to also want novelty.  None of that is particularly interesting, except when it comes to validation.  Validation is not the desire to have sex with an attractive/high-quality partner.  It is the desire to be DESIRED BY an attractive/high quality partner.  And if a person wants to be desired, what do they hope their partner wants?  To desire them in return.

     

    What does the validation-seeking man hope his partner will “get” out of giving him a BJ?  After all, there’s no way she will have an orgasm from doing so.  He hopes that she will enjoy giving him pleasure – her being high-quality and wanting to give him enjoyment is the validation he hopes to receive and give.  This is absolutely no different from the woman who has a ONS with a man because she wants to feel desired.  She craves validation.  And the validation would be more potent the higher-quality the partner, but the low self-esteem woman might not be able to bring herself to seduce that type of man, or may worry that the high-quality man won’t derive pleasure from being with her, so she seeks out someone who will.  Validation is validation.  How we seek it may differ.

     

    You asked why am I constantly claiming that a woman who has a ONS with a man desires that man more.  That isn’t what I wrote.  If you look at my first comment on this post, I wrote that men and women do not see eye-to-eye on this issue because our perceptions are not the same.  I never wrote that the woman necessarily desires the ONS guy more, I wrote that the man will perceive that she does, because of the different way men and women tend to view sex vs commitment.  There is a profound difference there!  And especially if her feelings toward the “relationship” guy are lukewarm.  If they aren’t lukewarm, this is not an issue, except insofar as each partner might judge the behavior/morals of the other as being compatible or not, but that isn’t about desire, its about compatibility.

    1. 31.1
      Callie

      I understand that perception. But I guess my larger point is: if the guy (like yourself) is aware it’s just perception not reality . . . why can’t he work on himself to disabuse himself of the notion? Why is it we need to know so hard (in that you write long post after post after post) that a man, despite evidence to the contrary, will think this way about a woman? Is it so that women change their behaviour despite everyone acknowledging they aren’t doing the thing?

      And I guess yes it is about compatibillity, about a woman who prefers a man who is logical and doesn’t allow conclusions he knows to be untrue sway his opinion of her.

      See again, I get what you are saying. I just don’t understand your point. Is it yet again to tell women to change their behaviour because men can’t?

      1. 31.1.1
        Jeremy

        My comments have been scattered, Callie, so here they are in a nutshell.

         

        Women – understand how men feel about this, in general.

         

        Men – understand how women feel about this, in general, and be sure to evaluate whether the heuristics you are using to evaluate your relationship are based on correct thoughts.

        1. Callie

          Well if that’s your message, then I am most certainly on board. 🙂

  2. 32
    Marika

    Sum Guy

    Speaking as someone on the gen X/Y cusp (that seems to matter in the context of this discussion), I’d prefer to know as little as possible about a man’s sexual past.

    But: I know he has one, I know he’s probably slept with women hotter, kinkier and younger than me, and that’s fine. His past is his own. If he treats me well and what we do together, we both enjoy, that’s what matters. If a man were to suggest trying something I hasn’t or was unfamiliar with, I’m also happy to at least consider it, (as long as it doesn’t involve other people or animals or whatever), without thinking “who else has he done this with? Was she better than me?”. Also, I think being open will help, more so than worrying about whether he’ll leave me for a hotter sex bunny.

    He may. But there’s nothing at all I can do about that. And fretting about his past will only make things worse, not better.

    I think one or two of the commenters views here are reflective of their lack of experience with online dating, or still not having come to terms with it. If you date online you know they can get a woman to come over and have sex within the hour, if you say no. There’s no point being offended by that, it’s just the way it is.

    1. 32.1
      Sum Guy

      Thanks Marika,

      sounds like we are close in age/ generation

      would love to hear about this site where could get someone to come over in an hour for sex, just kidding

      i don’t find the sex part hard but it’s not that easy 🙂

      i don’t know if it is just curiosity or what but I do get asked about past partners and what they were like, I won’t lie about things and don’t like to kiss n tell (I figure there is a kind of confidentiality you owe your past lovers) so not sure what to say

  3. 33
    Marika

    I have two stories before I leave this thread. They may help. Or not. But it’s worth a try, as stories often help me understand a point.

    The ‘bad’/don’t be like this story: my ex-husband loved that I was a ‘technical’ virgin when we got together. He loved even more that after I made him wait for quite a long time (wrestling with own morals, nothing to do with him), I said yes to pretty much everything he wanted to do. Guys can relate to why this was a massive ego boost for him. BUT: because those two things don’t usually go together he started to not trust my virgin status, questioned me about it several times and even accused me of lying. So he both rewarded and punished me for the exact same thing, due to his own insecurities and double standards (he was an ex male slut).

    The good/happily ever aftet story: my friend has been happily married to a man for at least 14 years (their eldest child is 13), who she disregarded at first as not attractive enough, or right for her. He actively pursued her even though she was openly chasing a hotter, older unavailable dude. He knew he was her second choice. He pursued her anyway. He now has everything he wants. Do you think he feels like a chump?

    He’s definitely not ‘beta’. His cool confidence pursuing her knowing he was better than the hotter unavailable guy & not being at all threatened was the ultimate in strong masculine confidence and won her over.

    1. 33.1
      Theodora

      What is the meaning of ‘technical virgin’? Doing oral or anal but not intecourse?

    2. 33.2
      Jeremy

      Re: 2nd guy – “do you think he feels like a chump?”  Depends, Marika.  Is he getting what he needs out of the relationship from a psychological perspective?  Is she? I’m not asking you this, because you have no way of knowing. But if their answer is yes, then they have a great relationship.  If not, then they don’t.  Anyone who looked at my marriage 7 years ago from the outside would have described it in a similar way to what you wrote, not knowing the internal workings of a marriage.  Again, it’s not the past that matters, it’s the present.  It’s not the person’s sexual history, it’s the WHY of the history, because that’s what affects the present.

  4. 34
    Theodora

    I’m really happy that my English is so good that I’m considered a native speaker. I have to send the screenshot of this conversation with my thanks and gratitude to my former English teachers 🙂

  5. 35
    Jeremy

    I’m too emotional about this issue, and I’ve posted too much.  But I I beg your indulgence for one more post, which will be my last on this topic.

     

    Those who have studied psychology will be familiar with a list of cognitive biases that people are prone to – availability bias, confirmation bias, hindsight bias, etc.  But on this blog, the one I see over and over again is what I will term “happily-ever-after bias.”  The notion that the way things are right now is the way they will continue to be, or the notion that if only things would be the way we believe they “should” be, they would continue to be good in the future.

     

    No one marries a person with whom they are currently having conflict.  No one marries a person who is uninterested in having sex with them at the time.  Yet the divorce rate is as high as it is because people change, and because people don’t believe that statistics apply to them.  “Sure, 40-50% of marriages might end in divorce, but not ours.  We’re perfect for each other.”  Based on what do you say that?  Based on the assumption that the future will be like the present.  We know that change will happen – but we’re agnostic about the change.  We believe we can’t foresee it, so we take our chances.  But there is so much we can foresee, if only we look in the right places.

     

    The couple who sees money differently, where one is a spender and the other is a saver, will argue about money – and more so when money is tight.  The couple who doesn’t agree on whether they want kids will argue about kids – and more so when the woman nears 40.   And the couple that approaches sex for different reasons will argue about sex – and more so when one loses interest.  And having a formerly-interested spouse lose interest is COMMON. Even though, when they are courting or newly wed, none of these issues may come up, and the couple might not see this issue coming.  They aren’t looking in the right places.

     

    Too much bad advice tells us that when one spouse loses interest it is either due to medical reasons or due to neglect by their partner.  They don’t mention the elephant in the room – the loss of desire due to loss of arousal, without any medical reason or neglect.  No one talks about this – no one even seems to know about it – yet go to a “dead bedrooms” reddit and spend some time reading.  Talk to someone to whom it has happened.

     

    Conventional advice states that when one spouse loses desire, the solution is for the other spouse to focus on increasing comfort – help her with the housework, let her sleep in, help her turn off the “offs.”  Ask anyone who has been in this situation and they will confirm that this doesn’t work to improve desire.  The manosphere advises men to “up the alpha” – focus on arousal qualities rather than comfort qualities – but this advice too is flawed, because it fails to specify what any given women might find arousing!  What is her sexual meta-goal?  That is the piece of the puzzle that is missing.  And you can’t usually find out by asking her, because only the most self-aware people will even know – everyone else will make something up and then believe it.  Because in order to answer this question, one needs to look at one’s HISTORY.  When we have sex, why do we want it?  What do we GET out of it?  When we do not want sex, what is missing?  It isn’t about the “what” of the history, but the “why.”

     

    When people evaluate their compatibility, they focus on the “who, what, where, and when” of the present.  They tend to ignore the “why.”  Or mis-interpret it.  Or make something up because they want to believe it.  Understanding the “why” will improve your chances of successful relationships in the future, will minimize unforeseen conflict, and will give solutions to conflict when it arises.  It took me a decade to realize this.

     

    A smart man learns from his mistakes.  A brilliant man learns from the mistakes of others, so as not to make them himself.  Be brilliant.

     

    1. 35.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Jeremy,

      Thank you for your contributions to the blog.  You communicate your viewpoint very well, and I know you take care to try and weed out unfounded stereotypes and judgement from your comments.  I don’t always like what I learn from your posts, but I rarely disagree, and I do leave with new insight and understanding.

      1. 35.1.1
        Jeremy

        Thank you.  The feeling is mutual.

        1. Marika

          Well said GWTF. I value you & the way you express yourself too, Jeremy. One final question though, as I do value what you say (and this time it really is the final one!): about being brilliant.

          I think you’re saying it took you a decade to figure out your wife’s meta-goal was relationship, while yours was validation. So, to get her interested again you had to give her the sense that maybe, just maybe the relationship was threatened if you weren’t getting your needs met. Rather than helping with the dishes etc.

          With you so far.

          But about being brilliant, what difference would it have made knowing that was her goal before you married her? What would you have done differently? And how would you have found out? In the absence of that quiz I asked you to develop (😀), and knowing how I feel about questioning people about their pasts, how can you figure these things out relying on info about how they’ve acted previously? What would you have said to your fiancé at the time to figure this out, given she didn’t even know her meta-goal herself?

        2. Jeremy

          I value you and your contributions here too, Marika, and hate to see us at odds.

           

          It’s not just that it took me a decade to figure out my wife’s and my metagoal.  It took me that long to consider what a meta-goal was – you won’t find it written anywhere else.   Between my readings from various sources, the 3 points I had to synthesize to dig my way out of my personal hole were:

          1) That people don’t always understand themselves.  That when a person says one thing and their behaviour shows something else, trust behaviour but also understand that there’s no malevolence there.

          2) That there is a difference between comfort qualities and arousal qualities (as I’ve discussed here ad nauseam), and that hitting these qualities results in different reactions.

          3) That in order to want sex, a meta-goal must be present, and that meta-goal is not usually consciously understood.

           

          What would I have done differently?  I never would have had the problem in the first place, because instead of trying to prove my worth to my wife by constantly trying to please her, I would have understood that she would have been happier trying to please ME.  Occasionally.

           

          And I don’t like quizzes.  Because making lists and relegating one’s conclusions to pre-fab questions opens the door to error – see MBTI testing.  I wouldn’t have had to grill my wife about her past, just observe her behavior.  If her goal was validation, she would be overly concerned about seeing my reactions when she tried to please me.  If her goal was novelty, she would have been constantly wanting to try new things.  If her goal was pleasure, she would have been constantly after orgasms or stimulation.  If her goal was having a relationship, she would be especially passionate after she felt the relationship was being advanced, and distant when she thought it wasn’t.  I’m a bit of an intuitive thinker, so it would have been kind of obvious….if only I had known about any of this.

        3. Jeremy

          Re-reading this question, one other important thing comes to mind for anyone wanting to understand how to apply their knowledge of meta-goals.  Marika wrote, “So, to get her interested again you had to give her the sense that maybe, just maybe the relationship was threatened if you weren’t getting your needs met.”  This is actually incorrect.

           

          Whenever you create a dynamic where your partner feels she/he must meet your demands or else you will leave, that creates an uneven power dynamic.  And nothing kills sexual desire faster than a feeling of powerlessness (except in people whose sexual meta-goal is submission).  I absolutely did NOT hint to my wife that the future of our relationship was contingent on her regaining her desire.

           

          What I did was the opposite.  I had to act ambivalent about having sex – like I could take it or leave it, like it was no big deal at all if she said no on any given night, because I didn’t care.  A combination of this attitude along with a suggestion that I had other options (demonstrating high value) created a dynamic where she felt she had to re-establish the relationship she wanted, and had to use her own intuition/creativity to think of how to do that.  And so she came up with sexual desire on her OWN – and of course she would, since that had always been her meta-goal, as I knew quite well.  Her coming up with the idea on her own eliminates the power struggle.

           

          That may seem convoluted, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it.  The key is to let the person come up with the idea on their own, and to simply create the conditions for them to do it.  Now please use this strategy for mutual benefit and not for selfishness.  So much of the PUA strategies rely on similar psych tactics, but the difference is that they don’t result in mutual benefit…

  6. 36
    Marika

    Chance said:

    I don’t think what you described would keep a woman from having sex fairly early on if the attraction level is high enough IME.  Also, as I explained to Emily, the sex is usually not that good when it comes to women who make you wait.  I think there are generally two reasons for this.

    Do you live in a very liberal area? Human sexuality is driven by so many factors, many of them social /cultural /religious, nothing to do with attraction. You’re buying into this idea that if a woman feels she needs to wait, it’s all about the man. Completely untrue!

    1. 36.1
      Chance

      Fair enough, Marika :).  I suppose I live in a liberal area, and to answer your previous question:  I’ve never been with a religious woman.  However, I’m not buying into any ideas.  Rather, I’m just relaying my experience.  When I’ve waited for sex, the sex just wasn’t that fun.

      1. 36.1.1
        Sum Guy

        I’ve seen no correlation in my life between how good someone is in bed and how long they “make you” wait

        sadly I’ve also found no correlation between how long you wait and how long the relationships lasts

        also you need to define “wait” for me if you’ve known someone as a friend/social circle for a while that time counts for me even if you never thought of them romantically previously

        the only correlation I have found is the most attractive women, say 9’s, are less good in bed than the 8’s, 7’s, etc.  my theory is maybe because people (men and women) who are really good looking and know it, get by a little easier in life

        my female friends have joked the same, calling such good looking guys himbos

        my predictors of someone being good in bed are intelligence and presence

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Sum Guy

          sadly I’ve also found no correlation between how long you wait and how long the relationships lasts

          However, a lot of female commenters on this blog promote the idea.  As I mentioned earlier, a guy usually knows whether or not he wants a relationship with a woman after the first date.  If a man has to go beyond that point to make this determination, he is just not that into the woman.  It is usually a commitment of convenience because he has no better options.   No one wants to be in this type of commitment.

        2. Sum Guy

          YAG

          while I may know if I want to sleep with someone after the first date (from a purely physical point of view) I don’t even think in terms of a relationship until many dates later …although my ultimate goal is LTR i keep my mind on having fun and getting to know someone and see how things develop

          if I keep seeing someone I’m into them, especially as I am exclusive when sleeping with someone

        3. Callie

          “the only correlation I have found is the most attractive women, say 9’s, are less good in bed than the 8’s, 7’s, etc.  my theory is maybe because people (men and women) who are really good looking and know it, get by a little easier in life

          my female friends have joked the same, calling such good looking guys himbos”

          Agree with your female friends 100%.

           

        4. Sum Guy

          Presence meaning they are there in the moment genuinely engaged with you, not posing, mirroring etc.   nothing to do with bearing, dress, looks, etc.

  7. 37
    Marika

    Chance said:

    However, given your commentary surrounding this subject, I get a strong impression that you want to believe that this is true.

    Or possibly you want to believe your theory is true, so you won’t have to feel bad about dumping women who didn’t put out by the third date… 😉

  8. 38
    Marika

    Emily

    I’ll chip in $50 if we can add bimodal to the list.

    Also any suggestion that male behaviour is subject to nuance & circumstance, whereas women are all fembots driven only by hormones and hypergamy.

    1. 38.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Women are all slaves to the who-has, Marika. Surely you this.   🙂

    2. 38.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      Men are usually anything, but nuanced.  Men are fairly direct.

  9. 39
    Marika

    Jeremy

    I’m very glad I asked you that ‘final’ question. Because I completely understand. And I very much appreciate how you explained it in the present moment and in relationship to observing current behaviour in a way that (I think) is fair. BTW, was just kidding about the quiz… 😉

    What you say rings true. My ex kept asking me over and over why I wasn’t ‘getting there’ consistently with him. Like your wife, I had no idea how to answer these questions, so I said what I thought to be true: that it was my anxiety over our relationship not being on solid ground. But it wasn’t. Not that I knew anything about meta-goals, but I would’ve thought at that time mine was ‘relationship’. That was secondary, though. Everything you describe (including your 5 year old daughter’s behaviour, which I very much relate to), shows I’m first & foremost a validation person. I’m even seeking validation from you!! I think my ex was ultimately a validation person too, but, also as you describe, was going about it in a different way that didn’t serve his needs: novelty (constant seeking to find that one person who will give the ultimate validation to supplement the emptiness he felt inside). A validation/relationship person is never going to be happy with a validation/novelty person. So it was never going to work. It helps to recognise that, thank you.

    Also to be aware of my own need for validation IN a relationship going forward. And not to settle for false validation (e.g. a non-committal man I feel I need to keep proving my worth to).

    1. 39.1
      Jeremy

      Excellent 🙂   Now, the only reason I brought up the past rather than simply observing the present is because we should not fall victim to the “what you see is all there is” fallacy.  But if the relationship has gone on long enough, it should give enough perspective, I suppose.  It’s the beginning of relationships that are more problematic.

      1. 39.1.1
        Marika

        Oh J, don’t ruin it…:)

        1. Jeremy

          Sorry 🙂

    2. 39.2
      Jeremy

      Also, re: “Getting there”…

       

      As much as I talk about arousal and ‘on’ switches, we should not forget about comfort and ‘off’ switches – and we should not confuse the two.

       

      My first relationship ever had the highest initial chemistry and the lowest compatibility, and I experienced erectile dysfunction frequently.  It was humiliating and also confusing – why, given all the arousal I was feeling, was my body not responding?  I went to the doctor and got a clean bill of health, and I couldn’t figure it out.  In retrospect, I now know exactly what the problem was – my ‘off’ switches were frozen.  Because as much as I was feeling validation and arousal, I did not feel secure in a relationship, which was what I needed to activate my comfort centers and deactivate my ‘off’ switches.  No matter how hard you push the accelerator in a car, you’re going nowhere if your other foot is on the brakes.  You end up getting nowhere and running out of gas.  Which is an apt metaphor.

       

      You mentioned your suspicion that your sexual meta-goal is validation with a side of relationship.  Is the relationship aspect a sexual meta-goal, or a comfort switch?  The accelerator or the brakes?  If it was the accelerator, you would have sex with a man with the goal of securing a relationship with him.  If it was the brakes, you would feel most comfortable having sex with a man in the context of a relationship.  See the difference?  It’s important!

      1. 39.2.1
        Sum Guy

        Jeremy

        color me confused, and maybe it is the nomenclature, but I don’t see comfort as an “off” switch.

        More of a “pause” button

        yes when I’m in comfort mode I am content to just be with someone and non-sexual intimacy but if my partner feels a little frisky it actually makes me already primed as comfort derives from trust and trust frees me from inhibition, anxiety and all those negative things that can impact arousal

        i believe I’ve observed the same in most of the women I’ve been with

        do you think it matters how well you  trigger someone’s “on” switches that could turn comfort into a “pause” instead of an “off” ?

        1. Jeremy

          Hi Sum Guy.  Some of us on this site had a talk a while back about comfort vs arousal, and I assumed that Marika already knew what I was talking about, but I should have been cognizant that others wouldn’t know what I was talking about.  Sorry.

           

          Think of each person as having a sexual “on” switch and a sexual “off” switch.  An accelerator and a brake, if you will.  Our accelerator is activated by the arousal qualities our partner displays.  Our brake is DEACTIVATED by the comfort qualities our partner displays.  Some people have an accelerator that is difficult to activate, and need more arousal.  Some have a brake that is difficult to deactivate, and need more comfort.  All of us need both, though, to some extent.  If you search Evan’s blog, you’ll find the main discussion.  I think the topic was “Most women don’t dream of dating nice guys” on the last page.

           

          In this example here, I’m trying to tease out the difference between wanting a relationship as an arousal quality to activate the accelerator versus a comfort quality to deactivate the brakes.

        2. Sum Guy

          Thanks Jeremy,

          now it makes perfect sense, comfort is looking like putting tape over the off switch.   I tend to use the word security instead of comfort, if we lack a feeling of security (even if just imagined) our off switch is activated

          a sense of security/comfort could even come from a dysfunctional relationship if that is, e.g., is the only relationship model you’ve had

        3. sandra

          Psychologist Esther Perel discusses this very topic in depth:

  10. 40
    Theodora

    Of all the comments I read here, the most ridiculous is the idea that women can have sex quickly and without conditions with men they are meh about (for validation or whatever),  while making men they really like wait for sex and court them.

    It sounds like this: “When I really like a man, he gets to buy me dinner. When I don’t like him so much, he just gets a blowjob pretty fast”.

    Reversing the gender roles, this is like listening with a straight face a man saying: “Honey, I like you very much, that’s why I just want a blowjob every time we meet. I didn’t like so much a woman before you, that’s why every time we met I just bought her dinner”.

    I think it’s important not to BS ourselves and others.

    1. 40.1
      Sum Guy

      Is it so hard to understand situational behavior and having sex with someone because you just happen to want it and the person is good enough, in the right place at the right time, there are a whole slew of reasons (many have been given) that could make a meh guy good enough, but later when where you are in life is different and you approach these things differently…if nothing else the fear (and this thread shows it is justified) of how a guy a woman likes might judge you if you sleep with him too soon

      There are other reasons as well this is not BS, but you can persist in your view that humans are one-dimensional transactional beings, instead of more complex creatures that act in different ways at different times in there life

      i mean really, just the idea of catching someone on the rebound (a meh person hitting above their league) should dissuade you of the notion that what women are reporting here is BS

      1. 40.1.1
        Theodora

        What some women are reporting here is BS. I mean, the idea that you can make a guy wait because you truly like him while you can have sex without conditions with others who are meh to you because circumstances.

        Even if I’m living in a more conservative society where casual sex is very rare, I can relate more to Kenley’s honesty (I paraphrase) : a guy has to be hot as fuck to me in face, body and attitude to hook up with him.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Theodora,

          . I mean, the idea that you can make a guy wait because you truly like him while you can have sex without conditions with others who are meh to you because circumstances. Even if I’m living in a more conservative

          And I don’t how many comments there have been to the effect that none of the female posters on this site has heard of a woman dating one man she really likes and making him wait for sex while having sex with some other dude who’s hotter on the side. Most women are THRILLED when a guy they like is making the effort to date and court them. The statistical probability that, at the same time, there’d be another guy hanging around (but just for sex) is very, very low. Even if a woman is lucky enough to have a few men circling her, there is most definitely a pecking order in her mind and most definitely usually just one of the men who’s stepping up consistently. If she likes him, she’d focus her energies on him.

        2. Sum Guy

          Theordora @ 40.1.1

          The fact that some, or even for the sake of argument most, people will only hook up if the guy is hot (in mind, body and attitude) doesn’t mean others would hook up if a guy is just meh depending on circumstances.

          So when you call BS on women posting otherwise you are basically saying they are either lying or delusional when they say they could go with meh because of circumstances.

          Can’t see how you can stick by this, gave you at least one plausible scenario (the rebound) and can think of many others.

    2. 40.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Wow Theo,

      You’re actually trying to improve your game by playing the woman’s perspective.  Except it’s convoluted and nonsensical.  But keep trying!

      BTW, did you miss all of those posts from several male commoners that said they don’t care about a woman’s sexual past?  And that in their estimation, men who get their ego hurt because a woman sleep with a previous man on a faster timeline than with him do so because of their own insecurities?  Oh wait. . . that doesn’t jive with the Red Pill religion you belong to, so of course you would have ignored it.  Confirmation bias and all. . .

      1. 40.2.1
        Theodora

        No confirmation bias, actually.

        Among the men who said they don’t care about a wonan’s sexual past (Tom10, Chance, Shaukat), none of them follows the traditional dating script of planning/paying/courting/waiting for sex. And none of them are actively and intentionally looking for a potential wife and mother of their children.

        And you have to decide if you care or not about my identity, nationality and gender and if they are pertinent to my banal misogynistic arguments: Theo the Manospherian or Theodora a woman. Because you seem to use both when they are convenient, somehow like alpha fux/beta bux.

        1. Sum Guy

          Theodora @ 40.2.1

          I think I also said I didn’t care about the what she did as so much the why, but certainly don’t need to want to necessarily even hear about it until a ways down the relationship road.  Not that I haven’t had many a conversation, especially when younger, about number and types of partners, coming of sexual age in the age of HIV.

          You said: “Among the men who said they don’t care about a woman’s sexual past (Tom10, Chance, Shaukat), none of them follows the traditional dating script of planning/paying/courting/waiting for sex.  And none of them are actively and intentionally looking for a potential wife and mother of their children.”

          First, my attitude has not changed since I was younger looking to get married and have kids and now.   That has nothing to do with it.

          Second on the traditional dating script, great way to define parameters to exclude views you don’t want to hear.

          I certainly agree that there are men with 1950’s views (I’ll just call them “traditional” even thought that is a loaded term) that are very much concerned about a woman’s sexual past, and may even have this Madonna/whore thing going on.  So what.  I guess if you are a woman looking for that kind of man then yes you need to be concerned.

          I’ll exclude those who base these views on religious principles as there are different sites dedicated to that and being more than familiar with such beliefs, past “sins” don’t mean much because it is about forgiveness.  So even then, maybe even more so, your sexual past is the past.

          However, I understand the whole plan/pay/court/wait for sex that Evan recommends is to weed out the bad apples and to help women who have not been finding success doing it another way.

          You misunderstand guys like me who do not follow the “script.”  Frankly I have, can and will do these things BUT not because it is expected but because it is right for the situation and often just decent dating behavior NOT because it is some gender role or I need to.

          I will, for example, do such if it is to provide a sense of security and assure a woman I am not a “player” as long as I feel in return she is not playing me.  It’s really not hard, as a woman I am into, for me by definition, is one I can just talk to for hours and have fun with, sex not required.

          I’ll be honest though, I never have felt I had to “wait,” in fact I impose on myself a waiting period for sex, not waiting to show interest, kissing and such, but taking that next important step.

          Also, if I read Evan correctly, the plan/pay/court/wait for sex  is not written in stone.  I believe he does recommend contact men first, offer to pay after several dates in etc.  It’s the whole sex thing that seems to throw people off, and generate long threads.

          My caution has always been to the good women out there that if you follow this script do not treat it as an expectation, do understand that this behavior can (if done improperly) come off as using a guy and drive otherwise high value men away.

          I will however agree with you that guys which feel they must plan/pay/court/wait for sex out of a sense of “traditional” gender roles, obligation or desperation are more likely to have a problem with any woman over 30 who even has a sexual history…largely I imagine based on macho/controlling Madonna/whore mentality, insecurity or both.

          I can very well believe it if you told me where you live that all men are like this as that is the Eastern European male stereotype.   Yet don’t confuse that with the high value men in the U.S., which I believe are the target guys for the strong, successful women who come to Evan or the women who visit this blog.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Theo,

          Actually Chance and Tom are in LTRs and they have both discussed scenarios of how they would want things if they ever married, though it’s not in the cards for the time being.   Shaukat has never expressed one way or the other whether he desires marriage and children or not.  So your assumptions about them are completely wrong.

          What’s interesting about you is the more you try to argue your point, the more you contradict it.  Yes, Tom, Chance, and Shaukat do expect women to take a more active role in initiating, planning, and paying for dates.  And, hello!  They aren’t experiencing a shortage of women to be with.  Which blows apart your argument that women want to have it both ways.

          Actually I don’t care about your gender or nationality.  Debunking your vapid theories and arguments doesn’t depend upon whether you are Theo the Manospherian or Theodora the Romanian woman surfing the net while at work on the night shift on her employer’s dime, who is also a Manospherian.  It’s just amusing both how you totally write, think, and behave like a man and at the same time repeatedly insist you are a woman when people point this out.  And on top of that you claim to be an Eastern European woman, a group of women that are stereotyped and fetishized by fellow manospherians.  How ironic!

  11. 41
    Rita

    Ah, there are to minor things that struckd me with this blog post.

    1. Being honest is good. You should be honest but bringing your girlfriend pain is hardly what a good man does. Deal with your doubts at the doctor’s office, with your therapist or even your priest but don’t ever utter these words; “I’m not sure about you”. It’s not lovin and how’s it going to make her feel romantic towards him? Apperently it doesn’t and that’s why she’s asking a relationship coach for advice.

    2. I think she is the one who has doubts. Doubts about is this man going to cheris and adore her the way she wants and needs. Is she going to get trapped into a conviniance relationship with a guy who feels she’s good enough because he’s tired of dating, and doesn’t want to be alone. The truth is, she doesn’t knocks his socks off and that’s what he knows deep down inside.

    My advace, since she’s already in a committed relationship with him, work on the desireability factor; talk less about feelings, explore something new and exiting for herself; like cooking, learning a new language, take a trip with friends. Be independent but soft and feminine and let him put in the effort with initiating texts, calls, outings and plans. Make her life full without him and he’ll will crave to be in it.

  12. 42
    KK

    Hi Jeremy,

    I just wanted to put in my 2 cents on one snippet:

    “Men seem to want a private clubhouse that women aren’t in, so that they can call it masculine and perceive it as different than what women are.  And more and more such a thing does not exist.”

    IMO it’s a shame that those male only groups / clubs are pretty much a thing of the past. I’m not sure why anyone would take issue with men having their own groups where women aren’t allowed. If those women are interested in a certain group, club, or activity, they should form their own women’s only group.

    I know the boy scouts have recently had some controversy over whether or not girls should be allowed. Parents of these girls who wanted to join the boy scouts claim that girl scouts are not an option because they don’t do as much camping, etc. There are other alternatives for girls who want to camp. There is already a group that is open to both boys and girls called adventure scouting.

    1. 42.1
      Gala

      Men’s only club are a problem because they are not just a glorified therapy support groups as some would have us believe. They are places where career and business opportunities are shared and if women are not there, they are missing out, never even learning of those opportunities and wondering why they are failing to get more clients, close more deals, or are never invited on that awesome startup investment opportunity that the guys discussed in a “men only” environment. Men’s only clubs must go..

      women’s only clubs are, in my view, completely useless and honestly should go too. There should be no double-standard.

  13. 43
    John

    KK

    The thing about having a men’s only club is that it is considered discrimination against women, while a women’s only club is considered empowering and a place for women to share their issues without the prying ear of men.

    My father was a part of a men’s only club in the 1960s and he loved it. Nowadays if a man tries to start a social club with men only, the organization will be sued by the ACLU and promptly closed.

    I remember when I was in my late 20’s I worked at a restaurant owned by a man from North Africa. It was staffed by men only. We would sit around after the place closed and drink mint tea and smoke apple tobacco out of a huge pipe that we all shared. We talked about women, business and politics in a mix of Arabic, French and English. My girlfriend at the time wanted to come and be a part of this scene. I said no. She tried to convince me to let her come, but I refused. This was my space to be with men only and it fed my soul like nothing else. I also knew we would all act differently if she was there. Eventually the owner of the restaurant suggested that my girlfriend go spend time with his wife when we men were together and she could have some “woman” time with her. The place went out of business and I missed the male camaraderie more than the money I made there.

     

     

    1. 43.1
      KK

      John,

      “The thing about having a men’s only club is that it is considered discrimination against women, while a women’s only club is considered empowering and a place for women to share their issues without the prying ear of men”.

      Yes, and I think that’s an extremely unfortunate double standard that needs to change.

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