Did I Choose a Loser? Or Am I Just Insecure?

Did I Choose a Loser? Or Am I Just Insecure?

Evan,
I’m 23 years old and I fear that I may be the product of my overly exploited-social media obsessed-generation. I’ve been following your blog for quite a while now and even share some of your tips on my radio show (I always credit and cite you). Yet, I still find myself confused sometimes.

I’m currently dating a bartender. Most people would view this as a faux pas and even cringe a little at this statement. I know I did when I first said it aloud. We’ve been dating for about a month and shortly after we first had sex I found him creating distance between us. This is not really what concerned me – in fact I expected that. What bothers me is that when I casually bring up the fact that it takes him 5 hours to text or call me back, he tells me I’m flipping out. I find that inaccurate since I don’t feel that I get overly upset or loud with him. Since the birth of social media sites and, in particular, Instagram, I know when and how long ago he was active and on his phone. I don’t mention this to him because I know this is somewhat insane behavior.

This really upset me, so I tried not to care or bring up it up. However, since we’ve been dating and I continue to frequent the bar, there have been some red flags. Given his current profession, there are always going to be women, flirting and all of the stuff that would drive a woman insane. On three separate occasions I felt disrespected. The one that sticks out and still bothers me is when one night I went to visit him and after a couple of drinks I decided to leave. Usually when I leave we kiss or do something sweet. This time when I went to kiss him goodbye, he pulled away from me like the plague and told me in this sort of coy and charming way to wait until I see him tomorrow. IMMEDIATELY, bells went off in my head. I felt like I was being tricked. I asked him what the problem was and finally he admitted that at the other end of the bar a woman he had hooked up with in the past was sitting amongst mutual friends and he didn’t want her to say anything.

I left the bar without saying a word to him. I felt humiliated and frankly pissed off.

Is it me or did I choose a loser? Am I being the stereotypical insecure woman or are my reasons for feeling uncomfortable just? Whether it’s him or anyone else, I tend to have this problem. – Kristina

His girlfriend is going to be the cool girl who makes him want to be a better man – not the one who spies on his Instagram account.

Yes and yes.

Yes, he’s a loser. Yes, you’re being the stereotypical insecure woman.

Wait, you want me to say more? Okay, twist my arm.

You were aware enough to realize that you’re dating a bartender. Bartenders are often cute guys who work late hours and pick up women at last call. They are around drunk women all the time and can often get together with whomever they want, at will. If that bartender is in his 20’s like you, it’s a really safe bet that he’s in no rush to get married, and so he will continue to keep a roster of women at his access. He can text any of them when he gets bored/horny/lonely and whoever responds, responds. That’s his desire.

This doesn’t mean that he is a jerk. This doesn’t mean that he can’t be nice to you. This doesn’t mean that he will not eventually end up with a girlfriend. It does mean however, that his girlfriend is going to be the cool girl who makes him want to be a better man – not the one who spies on his Instagram account.

And that’s where your tendencies – the ones you admitted in your last line – are going to trip you up. Doesn’t matter if you’re dating a bartender or a saint. You are acting from a place of fear and insecurity and you’re paying the price for it.

Therefore, you have two choices:

If you’re with a guy who does NOT really like you, does NOT want to be a boyfriend, and does NOT see himself as a husband one day, it doesn’t matter how cool you are or how jealous you are; you’re just wasting your time.

1. Find a guy who doesn’t have a profession which requires him to flirt and be surrounded by other women. An accountant. A contractor. A programmer. He may be less charismatic than your bartender, but he’ll be earnest, relationship-oriented, and single-minded in his attraction to you. This is the man you should probably date and marry based on your natural insecurities.

2. If you insist that you want to be with a confident, flirtatious, charismatic guy, you had better put all your fears aside and start trusting.

No getting on his case for flirting. That’s what he does.

No lectures for not replying to texts when you want him to. You’re not his boss.

No freaking out that he’s got a past with other women. Of course he does.

Now this does NOT mean that you should turn a blind eye to a man who is a player, a cheater, and a narcissistic jerk. Your bartender could very well be that man.

But I’m not.

And that’s the source of my advice – what kind of woman would I want to be with?

So, Kristina, if you are with a guy who really likes you, who wants to be a boyfriend, and who sees himself as a husband one day – the ONLY way to deal with him is to trust him and not micromanage him.

If you’re with a guy who does NOT really like you, does NOT want to be a boyfriend, and does NOT see himself as a husband one day, it doesn’t matter how cool you are or how jealous you are; you’re just wasting your time.

This is almost the identical situation to this post from a few weeks back (What Is the Definition of Monogamy?)

In short, you’re wrong to spy on your bartender and get jealous that he has other women in his rotation. You’re not his girlfriend. You have no rights to his time.

But your bigger problem is that you’re dating a young bartender who doesn’t see you as anything serious and you’re expecting him to hop to attention when you call.

Don’t waste your time.

0
0

Join 7 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (70 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 31
    Katarina Phang

    I want to address two things here:
     
    1.  How we feel is the result of how we perceive the external world.  If we use broken colored glasses (expectations), yeah sure we will feel lousy more often than not because more often than not our expectations aren’t going to be met.  So to be at peace with oneself, replace those broken glasses with a new pair that works better.
     
    2.  There is no guarantee either way in dating: sex, or no sex, pre-sex agreement or not.  The need for guarantee and security is why you are insecure in the first place. And this is why you’re not going to get the result you want as you plan it. The only way of being secure is by embracing insecurity….and the impermanence that life is.  And love can’t be planned, targeted, hurried….it happens when you least expect it when the connection you cement in every moment you’re together naturally evolves to something deeper.

  2. 32
    Karl T

    LC#24,
    You sound extremely narrow-minded.  You say “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context”
    Really?  Your mind can not fathom that? 
    Then you say “It’s so sad that we women give men our bodies and hearts, and they don’t seem to want them at all.”
    You speak like women are this precious jewel and men are privileged to have sex with them.  Wake up!!  Are you living in a cave?  I’ve met women before who have sex with you and then dump you in a heartbeat without half a care in the world.  Neither gender is some precious gift to the other one.  Get a clue.

  3. 33
    Rose

    Fusse
     
    “Evan says “1. Find a guy who doesn’t have a profession which requires him to flirt and be surrounded by other women. An accountant. A contractor. A programmer. He may be less charismatic than your bartender, but he’ll be earnest, relationship-oriented, and single-minded in his attraction to you.”
     
    Amen! I’m just that lucky woman who is naturally attracted by those types, and I just snatched a good one for myself : ) When I happen to admire the nice *ss of a good-looking woman passing by, guess what? He drools at her… dog! Now that’s the kind of guy that is easy to accept, to make feel good, and to forgive when he does something less than ideal. Less headache! More fun!”
     
    Exactly, negative feelings are a gift so if you are feeling insecure it is a gift saying hey listen you are doing something that isn’t good for you. Which in this case is getting involved with the wrong kind of man for you.
     Date the right kind of man for you as Evan says. One who will treat you how you want to be treated, take it slower to observe if you are both on the same page and  to see if caring mutual  feelings develop first before investing your heart and time and then you won’t feel insecure you will be with a better match for you.

  4. 34
    Rose

    One other things that springs to mind is trust.
    Trust comes from a deep place in you, it’s about trusting your gut trusting yourself to know what is right you you not him. Which it appears in this case you had but chose to ignore

  5. 35
    Michelle

    Thank you Fusee30 for understanding. I’m on board with all great advice for women about the right way to think about and approach dating and relationships, but I just can’t stand the naive and myopic judgements about how women naturally feel sometimes in response to disappointment, rejection, confusion…you’re needy, you’re insecure, you’re bitter..YES we’re all those things because we’re HUMAN. 

  6. 36
    Shelagh

    Sounds like the OP is an admirer of Evan, and seems as though she knows what she’s doing is wrong. Sometimes you need to hear it from someone else. I think it’s safe to say that we’ve all taken part in childish behavior when it comes to dating. We are reading a blog for dating advice. Evans blog, btw. I feel like I’m reading a bunch of comments that are people pretending they’re experts in dating. Can we leave that to Evan? Simple request. Some of these remarks make my eyes hurt, and some of us also want advice from ONE person.(Evan) K thx.

  7. 37
    Joe

    Shelagh: then don’t read the fkin comments!

  8. 38
    Scaramouche

    @Shelagh
     
    *chuckle*
     
    @Karl T 32
    ———————————————————————————-
    LC#24,You sound extremely narrow-minded.  You say “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context”Really?  Your mind can not fathom that? 
    ———————————————————————————-
     
    No, Karl T, mine can’t either.  That’s a difference of opinion, not narrow-mindedness.  I’m not asking you to change your opinion, only stating that in my world that makes no sense.  That is why LC followed her comment with “but I guess that’s what dates me in this discussion.”  This is an indirect acknowledgement of the fact that others may believe something different.  You, on the other hand, seem to think that casual sex should be “fathomable” to everybody.  Sorry, dude.

  9. 39
    Karl T

    Scaramouche #38,
    Wrong!  I didn’t ask if she agreed with it (casual sex) or shared the same point-of-view about it.  I asked how her mind couldn’t possibly fathom how 2 people might want to have causal sex.  That IS narrow-mindedness.  Expand your mind just slightly and maybe you will comprehend how two people might get horny and want to bring pleasure to each other. Gee, that is tough to imagine, isn’t it??  I’m not gay, but I can fathom that gay people get the same feeling of arousal that I get when I look at the opposite sex and I can understand that even though I don’t get the same arousal from looking at the same sex.  Narrow minded people can’t think outside their own train of thought. 
    Apparently, you are narrow minded as well.  Sorry dudette.

  10. 40
    Rose

    Karl T. She didn’t say how she couldn’t fathom how two people might want to have casual sex.
    She said “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is considered casual in any context.”
    I interpret this as her meaning that she doesn’t understand how another person can consider such an intimate act as casual
    .
    subtle miscommunication and understanding. Although my interpenetration may be wrong.
    Happens a lot between people I believe.

    1. 40.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Rose, @KarlT, @Scaramouche, @LC, @Shelagh – to clarify on behalf of men:

      To the question of “I don’t know how a guy putting his penis inside of a girl is consider casual in any context”. This is a failure of imagination on your part. Just because YOU can’t fathom that such an act is casual, BILLIONS of men (and women!) have had a different sentiment. We are all well-served to understand how other people think. I very much understand and respect how you think. You would be wise to appreciate that for many people, sex does not have to do with love or emotion, just lust.

  11. 41
    Katarina Phang

    What many women don’t understand is your focus on commitment takes away the lure of committing to you more often than not. If he sees you more than just a “sex object” which I’m sure you are he will want to get to know other aspects of you.
     
    There is really no strategy other than being grounded and self-confident. If you are a woman with self-esteem, he will admire and respect you for that. That’s the beginning of love for a man. But if you disrupt the chase with “the talk” and demands of “clarity of where the relationship is going” or chasing behaviors or the constant need for reassurance more often than not he’ll be turned off and feel pressured into committing into something he’s not ready for.
     
    At the end of the day, you can’t control other people, especially not a man you’re trying to hook romantically.  It never works that way.  You can forever blame the men as the problem of your insecurities because they don’t do things the way you think they should (expectations), or you can change yourself and your approach to dating/relationship (which is what I did and I’m so glad that I did).

  12. 42
    Skaramouche

    @EMK
    >>  I very much understand and respect how you think.
     
    Thank you.  That is all anyone can ask for in a respectful debate.  I respect your beliefs as well.  I’m truly not lacking in imagination…I have an overabundance of it.  I can very well imagine how casual sex is a fantastic, pleasurable, fun release as a stand alone.  However, right after that I think of related points that I cannot refute.  If people are so easily able to separate lust and love/emotion, that means they are two separate things and one should have no impact on the other, i.e. love is not needed for sex and sex is not needed for love.  Further extending this then, monogamy holds little value (beyond sexual safety) because who you sleep with has nothing to do with who you love.  You can love one person, have children with him/her and/or spend the rest of your life with him/her but still have emotionless sex with other people at the same time.  This is where it breaks down for me because I don’t believe people work this way.  I’ll stop here because this isn’t really a discourse on my thoughts and feelings about casual sex.  My only point is that I HAVE thought about this a lot and have made a personal decision based on the things I can and cannot accept.  Speaking only in that realm, I cannot fathom how the casual sex system works.  I understand and accept that it happens and it works for many people.  I am passing no judgement of any sort because it’s not my place to.  However, that is not the same thing as understanding how people make it work in their heads.  I am genuinely curious about that.
     
    @Karl T: are you capable of writing a comment that makes a reasoned point without the attacking the person you are responding to?

  13. 43
    Michelle

    Katarina 16. You have complete control over your actions, you do NOT have complete control over your feelings. That is the kind of statement I’m talking about that makes women feel defective for feeling PAIN, anger, and anxiety when things aren’t going well with a love interest. Not everyone can magic themselves into a FABULOUS life where they’re so awesomely busy and having fun all the time they don’t notice when a guy they like has dropped the ball. No one can will themselves to not WANT to do the things the op has done, they can only will themselves to not go through with it. I’d like more of that distinction made in the advice that gets given to women about how to navigate this stuff. 

  14. 44
    Tom10

    Fusee # 30
    “Amen! I’m just that lucky woman who is naturally attracted to those types [An accountant. A contractor. A programmer]”
     
    I’d be wary of judging a guy on his job – that’s what catches a lot of women out. I’ve got several (male) friends who are accountants and they are terrible sluts!
     
    I know you meant the “less charismatic than your bartender” bit, rather than his job per se.
     
    “I just snatched a good one for myself : ) ”
     
    Are congrats in order?
     
    Joe #38
    “Shelagh: Then don’t read the fkin comments!”
     
    Ha, I liked that – I thought the same thing.
     
    Rose #40
    “subtle miscommunication and understanding. Although my interpenetration may be wrong. Happens a lot between people I believe.
     
    Was that an intentional pun? Lol. I think there was some irony in there too :)
     
    Skaramouche #43
    “if people are so easily able to separate lust and love emotion”
     
    I think you touch on the paradox that most men – and many women – eventually have to deal with: how to resolve our inner conflicting desires of having sex with many people, yet love emotion with just one person. Each of us approaches this in different ways. I’ve decided to have lots of sex first and then think about love. Tiger Woods decided to have love and lots of sex at the same time (I’m not sure if that was a good idea). Ultimately it’s up to each individual to resolve this conflict for themselves.
     
    I think Karl T made a fair point to LC. Reading her comments – “It’s so sad that we women give men our bodies and hearts, and they don’t seem to want them at all” she seems to fall into the trap of thinking that all women are like her and have had the same experiences as her. She doesn’t seem to realize that women dump men after sex too, say they’ll call and then don’t etc. It’s happened to me several times and looks like it’s happened to Karl T as well. The point he made is that these are universal painful experiences, not specific to women.
     
    Our bodies and hearts are just as precious. 
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

  15. 45
    Rose

    I understand where you are coming from Scaramouch.People who can compartmentalize and or dissociate are able to do this. They are able to treat sex as a sport and it can in some cases becomes an addiction to try and  fill a void trying to escape their problems or past traumas, Not sure if that helps you fathom it or not. Fear of intimacy is also another reason for some.

  16. 46
    Karl T

    Scaramouche#43,
    I think I explained myself quite well.  I called it narrow-minded.  Evan called it lack of imagination.  Enough said.
    Tom10 #45,
    Thank you for further explaining my post.  And absolutely it has happened to me too.

  17. 47
    Scaramouche

    @Tom10 #45
     
    As always, your well thought out and humourous comments are appreciated and enjoyable to read and reply to.  I missed Rose’s (unintentional) pun and well, heehee.
     
    >> I think you touch on the paradox that most men – and many women – eventually have to deal with:
     
    But that’s exactly my point.  Is it truly a paradox?  Either sex  involves emotions or it does not.  If not then monogamy seems counterproductive and one should be able to love a single person and commit to him or her as a life partner while having lots of sex outside the relationship to slake the many headed beast of lust :D  You don’t have to choose and you shouldn’t have a paradox on your hands.  If there are those who are in happy, open marriages I would say that they have truly embraced casual sex without emotion.  The rest of us who see value in monogamy are just faking.  Just my humble opinion.
     
    >>   I’ve decided to have lots of sex first and then think about love.
     
    Nice plan!  You seem like a good dude Tom10 and if you ever end up with a girl long term I have a feeling she will be a lucky one.  Based on your comments so far though (not just on this thread), I think you have sex in spite of emotion, not in absence of it.  That’s an entirely different thing from sex being only about lust as so many claim.  You’ve learned to adapt and the value of varied sex outweighs the pain that it may cause.  Much luck to you, my friend.
     
    >>  I think Karl T made a fair point to LC.
     
    Yes, for the bit that you quoted, he did.  It’s just a tad hard to see with the insults flying around.  For the other part of the comment – the part that has resulted in the rampant use of the word “fathom” (!) – not really.  LC is speaking with much bitterness and does seem to be a bit one-sided but I don’t know that she deserved the insults.  My comment to him wasn’t nice…I was a bit ticked off and it showed but I’d like to think it wasn’t rude.  The response er….wowed me :P  Anger is really easy.  Staying calm, not so much.
     
    @Rose #46
     
    Hmmm…I think you’re overcomplicating it.  Some may be in the situations you describe but most are not, I think.  I could be wrong.

  18. 48
    Scaramouche

    @KarlT #47
     
    This is the first time in this thread that you have managed to put a comment together without needing rude remarks to go along with it.  Yes, Evan and Tom made the same point and yet they managed to do it in a much more respectful and sensible way.  I re-read your comment at #39:
     
    >>  I asked how her mind couldn’t possibly fathom how 2 people might want to have causal sex.
     
    Yes, I understand.  I was talking about the same thing so I’m not sure why you repeated yourself.  We are not discussing opinions on casual sex or how we feel about it, we’re talking about the concept itself.  I find it to be a bit of an oxymoron.  @Tom10 – hmm….causal sex…another pun?!!
     
    >>  Expand your mind just slightly and maybe you will comprehend how two people might get horny and want to bring pleasure to each other.
     
    Yes, I understand this concept very, very well.  No mind expansion needed :D  However, I disagree that the people in question can go on with their merry lives without the experience having had some sort of emotional impact, however fleeting.  *That* is where we disagree.  Make sense?

  19. 49
    Rose

    Scaramouche
    “Yes, I understand this concept very, very well.  No mind expansion needed  However, I disagree that the people in question can go on with their merry lives without the experience having had some sort of emotional impact, however fleeting.  *That* is where we disagree.  Make sense??
    Yes. It makes sense to me.  The emotion that they take away afterwards when having sex just to get sexual physical needs met is of something being missing.

  20. 50
    Karmic Equation

    To women who think casual sex = sex without emotions,

    As a woman who has casual sex, which a poster in a separate thread defined very accurately (imo) as “sex without commitment and expectations”, does NOT mean sex without “emotions”. I like the guys I have casual sex with. Heck, I even LOVE my reformed-player FWB, but I don’t EXPECT commitment FROM HIM. Because *I* don’t want to commit MYSELF to him. I know he’s not Mr. Right. But he’s a darn good Mr. Right-Now ;) — I have fun when we’re together. Sex is fabulous. My clock isn’t ticking. I don’t need him to make ends meet. I don’t want to marry him.

    I believe, however, men can and do have sex with women they don’t even like and don’t find attractive (“beer goggle-effect”), just to get laid. Not sure about other women, but I never need sex so badly that I’d have sex with a guy I don’t like or found unattractive.

    That’s why women need to be careful and understand that just because a man will have sex with you, doesn’t necessarily mean (a) he likes you (b) finds you attractive (c) wants a relationship with you.

    So if you’re a woman looking for a relationship, you really need to NOT have sex until you determine the guy is not only relationship-worthy by YOUR standards, but also that you are considered relationship-worth by HIS standards.

    ————
    Back to the OP,

    Kristina, in addition to Evan’s blog, you might also want to follow this blog: A New Mode — which is geared towards a younger demographic than Evan’s.

    You might find this post interesting: 5 Things Every Girl Needs to Know About Men — particularly point #1 :)

    Another blog that you might find interesting is http://www.therulesrevisited.com — Particularly this post: Female Game for Girls in their 20s. I think you should read ALL the articles in this blog.

    Your bartender isn’t a loser, but he isn’t ready for a committed relationship. And your behavior instead of making you stand out from your competition. You need to be different from other women he’s met to make him wonder about you. By behaving like the typical woman he meets, you become unmemorable. Cut your losses and find a relationship-oriented man, if you’re looking for a bf, and not just for fun.

  21. 51
    Tom10

    Thanks Scaramouche – perhaps a tad generous in your kind words but I appreciate them nonetheless! Much luck to you too :)
     
    “Either sex involves emotions or it does not.”
     
    Well I don’t see why it has to be a mutually exclusive condition – sometimes sex involves emotion and sometimes it doesn’t, and everything in between.
     
    “If not then monogamy seems counterproductive and one should be able to love a single person and commit to him or her as a life partner while having lots of sex outside the relationship to slake the many headed beast of lust”
     
    But the problem is that once an emotional connection has been established with someone then sex between them will involve emotion, and one can’t have random emotionless sex again without breaking that connection.
     
    That doesn’t mean that the individual will stop yearning for emotionless sex. They want the monogamous emotional connection and the random emotionless sex simultaneously; even though they realize that they can only have one or the other. If not a paradox, it’s a case of wanting their cake and eating it too.
     
    “I think you have sex in spite of emotion, not in absence of it.”
     
    There might be an element of truth here, but as Karmic explained casual sex isn’t necessarily devoid of emotion although sometimes it is.
     
    Generally to get casual sex a guy has to establish at least some rapport with the woman, however flippant. I am genuinely fond of most of the people I’ve hooked up with, however casual the experience. In saying that I’ve hooked up when neither of us spoke or knew each other names and it still felt good.
     
    “You’ve learned to adapt and the value of varied sex outweighs the pain that it may cause”
     
    Yes this is a delicate balancing act which I’ve decided is worth it. I don’t really mind the pain it causes me because I’ve learnt how to deal with it – and it’s an inevitable consequence of such behavior – I just don’t like inadvertently hurting others who haven’t learnt how to cope with it.
     
    Rose #50
    “The emotion that they take away afterwards when having sex just to get physical needs met is of something being missing.”
     
    Or of something being gained: a great experience and a fond memory.

  22. 52
    Karl T

    Scaramouche #49,
    It’s NOT an oxymoron at all!!    LC originally stated that she could not understand the concept of any sex being casual.  That is what she said.  I argued how anyone could be so narrowminded and rightly so.  Understanding and personal preferences are two wholly different things- not an oxymoron at all.  Go back and re-read as you didn’t comprehend my original comments correctly.  I am not a swinger and never would be, but I can understand and ‘fathom’ how certain people might be into that.  LC was basically closeminded and couldn’t even comprehend how any sex could be considered casual.  That is a pretty narrow vision.  If you find that comment insulting then maybe you need things sugar coated for you.  Sorry, I tell it like it is.  If LC is not into casual sex that is totally fine.  But she simply should have said something like “It’s not my cup of tea, but if you’re into that then…bla bla bla…”.
     

  23. 53
    Kurt

    The OP is very foolish.  Bartenders – men and women – have a reputation for being promiscuous and are generally not good relationship partners.  If blows my mind when I see attractive and educated women waste some of their most attractive years dating bartender-types.

  24. 54
    Sparkling Emerald

    Karl T & Tom10 (and EMK)
    Karl T you said
    ———————-
    “You speak like women are this precious jewel and men are privileged to have sex with them.  Wake up!!  Are you living in a cave?  I’ve met women before who have sex with you and then dump you in a heartbeat without half a care in the world.  Neither gender is some precious gift to the other one.  Get a clue.”
    ———————-
    and Tom you agreed with him.  Tom, you said it has happened to you and you believe it has happened to Karl.
    I am just curious, how did you feel about being on the other end of a “hump and dump”?  If I recall correctly (and correct me if I’m wrong) didn’t you (Tom)say in another thread that you didn’t realize how much women were hurt by being humped and dumped and you would try to keep that in mind ?  So if that was you, I’m guessing that although it has happened to you, it really didn’t bother you, since you didn’t realize it bothered women.    Whoever said that (and I’m remembering it as being you, but I could be wrong, I am over 50 so my memory isn’t tack sharp)  I commented back and said thanks for understanding, and then another poster (male)  got on my case and said I was being niave for commenting back a “thanks for understanding” comment.
    Anyway, in the blog o sphere, many men comment that they size a girl up immediately and put her in the hump & dump category or the relationship category.  So basically, many men freely admit that they participate in pre-meditated humps and dumps.  I’m guessing that most women who  “hump & dump”  (and notice I said guessing) didn’t initially plan that, but perhaps didn’t call after sex because they feel that the guy should call them.  You (Tom)  even stated
    ———
    “She doesn’t seem to realize that women dump men after sex too, say they’ll call and then don’t etc. It’s happened to me several times and looks like it’s happened to Karl T as well.”
    ———-
    OK, I am having trouble imagining a woman having sex and then saying “I’ll call you” but with women doing a lot of the chasing these days, and if you say so, I’ll believe this has happened to you.  But if the girl didn’t call you, why didn’t you call her ?  Did she initiate everything ?  If you didn’t call her, maybe she feels YOU were the dumper.  Maybe after saying “I’ll call you” her feminine pride kicked in, or she read a dating coach website and decided not to.  And why didn’t you call her ? (regardless of what she said)  Were you relieved that she didn’t call ?
    I don’t know, I just think in many cases of women playing “hump and dump” it was a matter of changing her mind, not that being her plan all along.  And the changing of her mind could be that she sensed the guy just wasn’t into her, and felt any future sexual encounters would just lead to heartbreak so she moved on.  If a girl didn’t say “I’ll call you” and she didn’t call you, then she didn’t dump you.  She probably waited for a phone call that never came and wrote to EMK, or some other dating coach, or cried to her girlfriends about how SHE was humped and dumped.(or she maybe she didn’t care one way or the other, what the hell do I know ? ) It’s not that I think women NEVER play hump and dump, but I think it happens far less often,  and probably in those few cases they mutually dumped each other.  Why do I think this ? Oxytocin for one thing. Also (unscientific I know)  I hear more men bragging about humping and dumping then women.  There is more advice to men about how to hump and dump, get into a FWB situation, and build a harem of girls to rotate into his booty calls.  And more advice to women on how to avoid being a guys once a week booty call.  Very few men write and ask “How do I get a woman to commit to me and love me for life”  Very few women set up websites & hold boot camps teaching women how to find boy toys for no strings attached sex. 
    EMK –  BILLIONS. of people are into casual sex ?????????  Really BILLIONS ????? Last time I checked, the world population was between 7 & 8 billion.  Of that 7 and a half billion, a high percentage are people who don’t have sex, either being too young or are unable to for some reason. And when you factor in countries where sexual offenses could lead to the death penalty, the pool of people eligible for casual sex shrinks even further.  Of the remaining people left who are physically able to have consentual sex, you really think BILLIONS are into casual sex ?  Why is there a visual in my mind right now of Carl Sagan saying “Billions and Billions” . . . ?  :)

  25. 55
    Karl T

    Sparkling Emerald #55,
    I observe that many women posting on here are in their 50’s, not all, but many.  Perhaps you don’t have a good grasp of what the dating world has been like currently and over the past 5 years or so.  I am in my mid-30’s.  I will just say that women do all of the things that they complained about of the worst of men.  They don’t call, they lie, they cheat, they have sex with another person in a heartbeat if they feel like it.  I have literally had a one woman tell me I was the greatest guy in the world and a week later she went out with her girlfriends (we were supposed to meet again, but it got botched because of a miscommunication that centered around her dad being sick with cancer and that I didn’t want to impede on a day she was planning to spend with him), met a guy and slept with him and was all through with me.  Where are all the emotions she was supposed to have as a woman?  Bahahahaa…that is why I don’t buy all the women are emotional BS!!  I have had girls who seemed to like me a lot more than I liked them actually blow me off for a date that we setup only a few dayss prior.  No call, no text, no e-mail.  Nothing.  Not a care in the world.  I would be ok if this happened only a few times, but it was actually happening so often that I started to expect these things.  I had one girl keep callking me up and talking to me and telling me how terrible the men are on dating sites and how she couldn’t wait to meet me in a few days.  A few days later she just blows me off cold turkey after we had been chatting for 3 weeks straight and finally set a date due to both out busy schedules.  Last time I quit plenty of fish I had 4 dates in a row blow me off and I called it quits.  One of the 4 actually messaged me to apologize for it.  The others acted like they did nothing wrong when I sent a harsh e-mail the next day.  One actually tried to blame it on food poisoning, but yet after she blew me off I went online and saw her online for over an hour.  She could go online, but not send me a quick e-mail?  Liar.
    I know that there are a lot of men out there who are scum, but please realize there are just as many women who are and don’t think of women today as these innocent precious jewels.  Many are as scummy as the worst men.  I judge people by who they are individually- men and women.  And just for the record most of these women Iappeared as sweet, cute, family type girls with decent jobs- so their poor behavior was even more unexpected.  They were not trashy or psychos.
    And for the record I am not big into casual sex.  I would take it if it came along, but I don’t go out looking for it and I have never has a ONS.

  26. 56
    Tom10

    Sparkling Emerald #55
    “I am just curious, how did you feel about being on the other end of a “hump and dump?”
     
    To be honest it primarily felt great: I got sex! I was maybe 5% miffed that she thought the sex was so bad that she didn’t want to go again, and maybe 5% miffed that she didn’t like me enough to see me again. But the 90% positive feeling from sex far outweighs the 10% blow to my ego. Plus for a guy to be “used for his body” is interesting, even flattering.
     
    “If I recall correctly didn’t you say in another thread that you didn’t realize how much women were hurt by being humped and dumped and you would try keep that in mind…I’m guessing that although it has happened to you, it really didn’t bother you, since you didn’t realize it bothered women.”
     
    Well it bothered me the first time it happened, but I quickly learnt my lesson and learned how to rationalize my emotions so that it wouldn’t bother me again. I.e. as she never promised me anything I took responsibility for allowing myself to get into that situation.
     
    I assumed that practically every woman had learnt her lesson (got burnt) by say age 21 and certainly by age 25, and knew how the game worked. That’s why I was shocked when reading women of all ages on this blog who kept getting hurt and making the same mistakes. I couldn’t understand how did they not learn their lesson the first time? And despite attempts at rationalizing with these women they still failed to “get it”.
     
    I’ve concluded that some people will probably never ‘get’ how the real dating world works and these people need to be treated carefully.
     
    “Many men freely admit that they participate in pre-mediated humps and dumps”
     
    Yes this is true – sometimes a guy will have established within minutes that he won’t see her again, but might still continue his efforts in the hope of getting sex.
     
    “I’m guessing that most women who ‘hump and dump’ didn’t initially plan that”
     
    This might be true – I think women do the ‘hump and dump’ (it sounds like a dance move ha) for different reasons: out of loneliness, or just spur of the moment fun, or just simple lust and then realize afterwards that it was just a one off. Guys do it for the same reasons but also for the conquest, the achievement, the story etc.
     
    I believe that the women who did it to me genuinely liked me, but not enough to see me again. Some women were in town for just the night, just wanted company and didn’t want the hassle of a long-distance contact. I suspect others had boyfriends although I’m not sure.  These women figured that as I’m a guy I’ll get over it – and they were right.
     
    “I am having trouble imagining a woman having sex and then saying “I’ll call you”.
     
    Well I flipped that for the sake of equivalence. The conversations normally went like this:
     
    Me: “so that was nice, wanna meet up again?”
    Her: “sure, that’d be great, call me, here’s my number”
     
    Then when I contact her she fades me out / ignores me etc. In my mind that’s equivalent to a guy saying he’ll call when he knows he won’t.
     
    “It’s not that I think women NEVER play hump and dump, but I think it happens far less often”
     
    Ok I admit that although it has happened to me several times I’ve done it way, way more times the other way around: a statistical inevitability of choosing a promiscuous lifestyle perhaps.
     
    —————-
     
    I suppose the general point is that women – particularly sensitive women – have a tendency to think that all women are like them and relate to sex in the same way. Karl T’s point is valid: to some women sex isn’t a big deal at all and they think nothing of having sex with a guy and then bidding him adieu. When guys meet women we have no way of knowing where she lies on that spectrum. Likewise, some men are probably more sensitive about sex than women realize.

  27. 57
    Sparkling Emerald

    Karl T – Thanks for your response.  It sounds more like your experiences are about relationships that don’t get off the ground, and I have come to expect that in online dating.  I was really curious about the whole “women don’t call after sex” thing.  Almost every relationship/dating coach tell us NOT to call a man,  to let him lead, I had no idea that a man would feel “dumped” if the woman didn’t call him after sex, and I am wondering why a man wouldn’t call a woman after sex instead of waiting for her phone call and acting all lovelorn if she didn’t call.  Almost makes me think I’ll just be celibate the rest of my life :).  Now I have the added question in my mind, “Should I call him first after we have sex.  If I do, I’ll come off as desperate and unfeminine, if I don’t he’ll claim I dumped him”. :)  Anyway, thanks again for your response Karl, but since you never had a ONS, that really wasn’t the kind of hump and dump I was referring curious about.
    I am sorry about your negative experiences with online dating.  I have experienced the dates that never happened myself.  I made a special trip in the rain to pick up a dress from the dry cleaners, and re-arranged some stuff for a first time meet . Got a last miniute cancellation e-mail with a bullshit excuse. But it didn’t bother because it was  a man I  never met IRL.  (But I realize that others feel differently)  Once I meet a man, and we start getting physical  (not necessarily sex, but kissing, cuddling, holding hands, etc) if he blows me off I do feel disappointed, but this time around, I don’t feel DEVASTATED like i used to.  Maybe because women over 50 don’t have Oxytocin any more, or maybe it ‘s because being dumped after 23 years of marriage is the BIGGEST heart break I have ever had, and will ever have, so everything else  seems like kid stuff in comparison.
    Sorry you’ve had some bad experience online, but can you honestly say that you’ve NEVER blown off anyone yourself ?  I hope you meet someone nice and that it all works out.  As burned as I have been, I still think that love is grand, and think it is something that we all desire. And seeing or hearing of someone for whom it has happened makes me smile.
     
     

  28. 58
    Tom10

    PS. Sparkling Emerald.
    When I say I’ve done the “hump and dump” I mean I’ve had a one-night-stand and left it at that rather than dated someone for a while and then dumped them after sex.

  29. 59
    Karl T

    Hi Sparkling #58,
    It’s ok, you don’t owe me any sympathies.  Like I said I judge people individually.  I just wanted to point out how women can act just like all of the worst of men I hear complaints about- especially with LC’s comment earlier citing poor women giving men sex and their hearts and guys being jerks.  That really made me laugh. 
    I didn’t know you were talking about ONS’s only.  I have had casual sex before, it just wasn’t after one meeting and it was casual sex just once or twice with that person- not some longstanding FWB. 
    Here is another true story for your reference that further emphasizes Tom’s last comment:  I have a friend who used to be a big player and a bragger (which I can’t really stand, LOL).  One night we all went out- big group of friends and he ended up with this girl back at his house (she went to his house prior and he drove her to the bar there so she could drink without driving).  This girl is very attractive and is a friend of another girl we all know who is dating one of the friends in the group.  So anyway, I guess he thought more of this girl and maybe he had a further interest in her as he acted not like his non-typical self and was a gentleman and asked if this girl wanted to sleep in his bed while he slept on the couch.  But, she just wanted a hookup and that was it and ended up leaving right then and there at 2am since she wanted sex only.  She left very quickly he said and told him she was only interested in a sex and nothing more and wouldn’t even stay at his house til morning if it wasn’t going to happen.  This is why I don’t buy all the emotional BS.  For reference the guy here was 30 years old and she was 30 or 31.  Some men are more emotional than others, some females are more emotional than others.  Some men are emotionless and cold and so are some females.  Stop reading into the oxytocin BS too much.  There is a lot more to a person’s self-conscious and how they act than oxytocin.  There are a ton of other hormones, chemicals, genetic patterns and reasons why people are who they are and act like they do. 

  30. 60
    Sparkling Emerald

    Kart T & Tom – Thanks for letting me grill you and for your responses.  I still think men do the hump and dump way more than women.  Despite the lovely story of the ONS girl,  I don’t think her behavior is typical of women. And if that’s your reason why you ” don’t buy all the emotional BS,” then you aren’t judging people as individuals as you claim. And if you consider women’s emotions to be BS, why are you on this blog ?  Remember, this is a blog mainly for women who want to fall in love. Most of the letters and blog comments will reflect that.    And it’s about the typical experience of dating not the exception, and the  girl that you told us about is most likely an exception.  So just because someone says something in her post about “we women . . .” doesn’t mean she thinks ALL women do this  and that all men NEVER do that etc, but that’s not what this blog is about.  LC didn’t mention starving children in 3rd world countries either, doesn’t mean she doesn’t know they exist.
    I think more men get more ticked off about getting dumped without getting humped.  More women get hurt by being humped and dumped.
    I don’t consider someone breaking off an established relationship that included sex to be humping and dumping, that’s just a break up.
    I don’t  consider someone disappearing online, after what looked like a promising prospect to meet face to face, to be a hump and dump, because there was no humping to begin with.  That’s just being flakey.  And considering that almost everyone online is communicating with several people at once, I expect it, and don’t get upset about it.  I’ve even flaked out myself.  Mostly when the e-mail exchange just goes on and on, and the guy never asks for my phone # or to meet face to face.  If we have started moving towards a meeting, and I change my mind, I’ll usually  let them know by saying something along the lines of “Thanks for taking the time to get to know me, but I am unable to meet with you”    I usually don’t get even that much,( I usually get a bizarre story about I can’t meet when we said we would, but I’ll get back to you later, and of course they never do)  but really I don’t care.  I can’t get upset about someone I haven’t seen face to face.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>