How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?

How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?

Evan, I have been reading a lot of different dating advice websites, especially the ones written for MEN. I have noticed a trend in telling men to get the women to chase THEM. (Ask Men is one example) I see a lot of advice to women about why men disappear, what to do when they disappear, etc., but it seems that men are being COACHED to disappear, as a power play, a way to get the upper hand, and to get the woman to chase THEM. So if women are being coached to play hard to get, and men are playing the same game, what does this mean for male/female relationships?

In this incarnation of my dating life I have decided that I am not going to chase men. (In my younger days I admit that I did, and no good ever came of it.) This time around I absolutely I will not chase men, nor be baited into chasing one. (Yes, men are advised to bait, hook, and then ignore a woman, to get her to do the chasing). BTW, I am not a “rules” girl, I read that book, and feel dumber for having read it. I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes. (They call it mysterious, but I call it secretive & evasive.)

So while I am not a hardcore Rules girl, I am a little old fashioned and want a man to pursue me, not hand me his business card and expect me to call him. Or e-mail me endlessly on Match.com but never ask to meet me face to face. What do you think of the role reversal being promoted by sites such as Ask Men (they call it “The System”) Do you think many men are following that advice ? –S.E.

Hoo boy. I’m not sure where to begin.

I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy.

I guess I’ll start with how I give dating advice, and how I think it’s different than many of the other sources out there.

Like many people, my perspective has been shaped by my own experience. However, unlike many people, I had a few unique things going for me.

1) I come from a happy and highly functional nuclear family, so I not only had a model of the kind of marriage I wanted, but I strove to emulate it. Many people who give advice come from broken homes, abusive relationships and unfortunate backgrounds, none of which are a crime. But I think my past is a strength, inasmuch as I have a very healthy outlook on marriage.

2) I am – at the risk of immodesty – very confident and flirtatious. Let’s just say I had considerable practice in online dating, dating and relationships. Many people who give dating advice have been married for 30 years and don’t know anything about dating. Many others (think pick-up artists) came to do so because they are shy, awkward and insecure. But unless you want to attract a guy like that, why would you care what such men think?

3) I am married and in an incredible relationship because I followed my own advice. And I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy. Then again, I could be wrong. I’m always willing to risk being wrong by having opinions. What kind of coach would I be if I didn’t have opinions?

4) I’m not afraid to stand on principle. Other coaches are marketers – their only desire is to a) pray that you like them and b) convince you to buy their products. My loyalty is not to my own biases or my own bottom line, but to the truth. I don’t view the world based on how I’d LIKE it to be; I pay attention to how it IS and advise on how you can best react to reality.

And very often, reality isn’t pretty. Would I rather tell you the truth or validate your worldview so that you don’t shoot the messenger?

The answer should be obvious.

Real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them.

People come here because they expect to be told the truth, rather than some rah-rah “all women are goddesses” bullshit that I don’t believe and I don’t expect you to believe.

Unless you believe the equivalent bullshit that “all men are noble studs”.

Which, of course, they’re not.

Now that I’m done tooting my own horn, let’s refocus on the advice you’ve chosen to cite, from AskMen.com

I just went to Alexa to check out the site’s demographics. What did I discover?

The target audience for AskMen is men 18-24, men without children, and men who live at home or are in school. When I clicked to see their income, most of these men didn’t even HAVE income. Compare that to Esquire readers, the majority of whom make six figures. Which kind of man are you looking for, S.E.?

Basically, I’m asking you what difference it makes if a website for boys is giving those boys advice that will work on insecure teenaged girls with low self-esteem?

That’s right. It doesn’t. Real men don’t read AskMen.com.

Just as real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them. This is run-of-the-mill pick-up artist advice for awkward teens, not advice that 40-year-old men and women are expected to utilize.

From this paragraph, it sounds to me like you know what you’re doing:

I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes.

And if you know what you’re doing, it doesn’t impact you one iota if some guy is running a game on you. Guys who play games just eliminate themselves from dating confident, secure women. Right, S.E.?

At the end of the day, whether it’s a man playing games or a woman playing games, one thing is for sure: everybody ends up losing.

0
0

Join 5 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (193 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 31
    Angie

    @Evan 5 – I do agree that 10 days is a LONG time, but I also agree that waiting a few days builds the excitement a little (presuming you are excited).  
     
    Because texting is a huge part of dating, I find that most guys will send a text within 24 hours of getting your number just to say “Hey, it’s X.  It was great to meet you!” or something of that nature, just to gauge the woman’s response.
     
    I actually think 18-24 year old men are pretty clueless.  First off, not all 18-24 year old women WANT a serious relationship or know what they want, so a little guidance never hurts.  I also find a lot of “nice guys” in this age group will put certain women, often first loves or big crushes, on pedestals.  I’d argue the people that have been picking on Doc Love that his advice has value for his niche audience. (He’s a clever writer, too).  I don’t really think there is a need for “The System” or “The Rules” or “The Game”, but reading social cues, being a better date, knowing how to ask someone out or knowing when to walk away (especially when to walk away) is WHY there is a dating “industry” at all.
     
    I’ve never read his book, but his column is entertaining and the point he reiterates over and over to his readers: “Her interest level isn’t high enough” (translation: “She’s just not that into you”).
     
    @ Karmic Equation
    Loved the Frisky link.

  2. 32
    Amy

    Great question from the OP! I could have written this myself. Thanks for answering it, Evan.
    Michael17@1:
    The “no chemistry” thing goes both ways. I have been on dozens of first dates with guys whom I would have happily gone out with a 2nd or 3rd time, even though I didn’t feel any particular chemistry with them right away.  But guess what, they never asked for that 2nd date! A couple of times I have done something many dating experts advise against; I emailed or called the guy later to say “thanks” for a nice time. The couple of times I’ve done this, the guys said something like, “yes, I had a nice time too. Too bad there was no chemistry!” End of story.  I’m guessing that whenever I don’t get a 2nd date, it’s because the guy was hoping to feel strong chemistry right away, and he didn’t, so he’s disinclined to ask, plan and pay for another date.  Wanting to feel something on a first date is absolutely true for both genders.

  3. 33
    Julia

    personally, the men I didn’t go out with again were usually men who appeared needy, creepy or gay. I didn’t need to feel like jumping his bones when we first met but I did feel like if I knew I WOULD NEVER sleep with him then I shouldn’t go out with him again.

  4. 34
    Still-Looking

    My dating life gets very busy at times and when I’m talking with a number of women, “out of sight, out of mind” becomes more than a saying.
    If a woman replies warmly/enthusiastically to my texts and calls then I know she’s interested.  If she texts or calls me, then I have a clear signal that she is interested.
    If I begin to wonder if she is interested in me, then I lose interest very quickly and move on.
    Michael17@30 expresses my view very well.
     

  5. 35
    Rose

    It works the other way around too John re competition.if the woman is dating two or more men and what she wants is a man who knows how to and wants to pursue, romance and lead a relationship, she will pick the one who does that
    So win/win really, you choose the woman who wants to pursue, chase and romance you.
    And she chooses a man who wants to pursue, chase and romance her.
    Most women want to be the ones being pursued and romanced I believe though and don’t want to be the one calling making, plans, picking the man up, initiating sex, leading the relationship, asking a man to marry her further down the line.
    Or When it’s both taking turns, that is like a friends with benefits scenario. If romance and love is what a woman wants, which I believe it is when looking for a life partner then this take it turns FWB scenario will not work. IMAO all that gets you is a fuck buddy. And most women if they are honest do not want this.
    So it’s about  everyone deciding what they want and then either, pursuing and chasing and a man,  being pursued and letting the man chase you, otrtaking it in turns.or and getting the right match for what you want.
    Women who want romance, love and long term relationship, which I believe most do  don’t need  to chase a man as a man who wants this will pursue and chase them It is how nature has worked for years.
     

  6. 36
    John

    Rose @38
    It works the other way around too John re competition.if the woman is dating two or more men and what she wants is a man who knows how to and wants to pursue, romance and lead a relationship, she will pick the one who does that
     
    I agree with you. Both people should do the pursuing and the courting. Maybe it came across as the woman should do all the courting. That’s not my position at all. Like everything else, it should go both ways. By the 3rd or 4th date, approximately 2 weeks have gone by. If during that time, the guy is the only one who initiates the calling, texting, planning, etc. then I would lose interest since it would appear to me that she has a low interest level or is just keeping me in orbit until a bigger and better deal comes along.
     
    By the same token, if the girl is doing all the effort with her sweet good morning texts, being flirty with him, etc. and he isn’t taking some initiative, then I would expect her to not feel like she is being valued. I think both parties should be making the attempt at courting. Over the course of the initial couple of weeks, that is plenty of time for each person to do their part and give the green light they are interested. If it is one sided, then the giver will be tempted to explore other options to someone they think is more receptive to their advances. That’s for both guys and girls.
     
    Again, if that thought process makes me the exception to the rule, then it is what it is. I just know from own dating/relationship success and failures that when it is one sided, it fizzles out quickly. When both people do the courting and the emotional investing, it leads to something more substantial.

    1. 36.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @John – Here’s the difference between us – and I don’t mean it in a negative way:

      You have stated that you would not call a woman back if you weren’t sure she were interested on the date. You have stated that you would stop making a proactive effort if she weren’t making a proactive effort.

      Personally, the only way I know if she’s interested is if I call her for a second date. If she says yes, she’s interested.

      You’re putting the onus on a woman to DO something, when really, she doesn’t have to do anything except return your calls, texts, emails quickly and respond to requests for dates with enthusiasm.

      You may think you’re “weeding out” lazy disinterested women, but you’d be wrong.

      You’re weeding out women who are waiting for a confident, masculine man who believe in themselves so much that it doesn’t even occur to them that the answer would be no.

      Be that man, instead of complaining that women don’t text you first.

  7. 37
    michelle

    It’s obviously difficult when someone is preceived to ‘reject’ us.  I always liked the phrase “Rejection is God’s Protection” :)

  8. 38
    Selena

    @JustMe #33
     
    Good point. Some people use the word chemistry to describe the hormonal ‘zing’ one feels toward some people and not others. I consider that simple sexual attraction. Other people use the word chemistry to describe personality compatibility – the ease of talking, laughing, relating to each other.
     
    I suspect when someone says there is “no chemistry” with a first date it can mean either there wasn’t enough sexual attraction, or personality attraction- or both- for them.  Giving “no chemistry” as a reason for not wanting to go out again is kinder than pointing out perceived deficits in someones looks, personality, character. I also think sometimes both men and women know on a gut level the other person would not be a good match for them even without being able to pinpoint exactly why, so why not give “no chemistry” as the reason?

  9. 39
    Tom10

    Thanks Selena – for many people chemistry seems to be synonymous with basic attraction and ‘a connection’ so. For me, they are different concepts. I’m probably attracted to about 60% of women, but only feel that hot primal ‘chemistry’ with a very small % of women. Yes I’m aware that the ‘growing attraction’ phenomenon is unique to women.
     
    In that case Michael17 it seems the only thing you can do is keep working on appearance and demeanor so – because as we know so well from Evan – we can’t change women, we can only change ourselves!

  10. 40
    Rose

    John.
    When it’s both taking turns, that is like a friends with benefits scenario. If romance and love is what a woman wants and most men evatually which I believe it is when looking for a life partner then this take it turns FWB scenario will not work. IMAO all that gets you is at most friendship ot friendship and a fuck budy.  And most women if they are honest do not want this. Some claim to want that and some do.
    This appears to be what you want at this moment is your life nothing wrong with that if both people are open and honest to what they want and are looking for and are on the same page. Wanting and looking for the same thing. Great everyone is happy.
    Women who do not want that though and who want romance, love and long term relationship, which I believe most do  don’t need  to chase a man as a man who wants this will pursue and chase them It is how nature has worked for years.
    It’s all about  being honest and finding the right match at the end of the day to wants needs and desires. As without honesty all that happens is people hurt other people or get hurt.

  11. 41
    michelle

    #42, and to add onto that, in this day and age of on line dating, the numbers of times there is a date zero (meeting someone for the first time) are way way more than they are then when there wasn’t on line dating.  So naturally there’s going to be more rejection.  We’re humans, we can chat on line/electronically til the cows come home, it means nothing until we meet in person.   Understanding men and women and how we each operate is a big piece of the puzzle.  And to your point, we’re not going to change anyone but ourselves, and ‘change’ I’m referring to is learning how all this works and accepting it.

  12. 42
    Selena

    @Tom
     
    I’ve only felt theat instant, high intensity, knock-your-socks off kind of sexual attraction a handful of so number of times. And it never resulted in a relationship, or much of one as it turned out. In fact, months or years later I sometimes wondered what I ever saw in the guy. ;)
     
    Which is why I think when people speak of chemistry, or no chemistry, it can mean almost anything. It doesn’t necessarily mean they need to feel an instant hormonal high, it could mean they didn’t feel sufficiently sexually attracted. Or they didn’t feel the ‘click’ that comes with personality attraction. Maybe the conversation was dull, forced, awkward, too full of uncomfortable pauses. Maybe it became clear the two people had nothing in common, or had dissimilar values. Maybe one talked to much about an ex, leading the other to think they weren’t over that relationship yet. Or worse, they were in the bitter after-breakup phase, distrustful and gender bashing. Mabybe someone came across as immature, or boardline obnoxious, bored, disinterested, drank too much.  Stating lack of chemistry is easier than going into details with a virtual stranger one doesn’t want to see again.
     
    I think it’s hard to not let rejection of any kind sting, but one way to look at it is the other person weeded themselves out, before you had to do it.
     
     

  13. 43
    Michael17

    You indeed can’t change other people, you can only change yourself. Which is why a lot of guys turn to the PUA Community…there is a way that many women date (for better or for worse) and if you want to be successful dating women, then you have to appeal to that.
     
    I definitely do have the occasional “What the hell do women really want??” moments. When the woman doesn’t want to see me again after the first date, I get some variation of “great guy but no chemistry” after the first date. Thing is though, I have friends, I’m successful, I’m not-bad-looking, and I’m modest too (laughs). And I have my share of dating and sexual experience. And I think I screen for the right things. The women I go for are cute sure, but they are also nurturing, and high-character. Before we meet up there is at least one, often two or more, phone calls that flow quite well. And my pictures are accurate too! (I meet most women online.) And to the best of my knowledge I don’t have any annoying tics. I’m not pushy or anything either.
     
    So I do wonder if the women who are single (and who don’t want to be) have unrealistic expectations. Personality-wise I am basically a nice guy. Or deep down, maybe there is just something wrong with me, in that for all I have going for me, the women have already decided “no”, and after only one meeting….
    ***************
    Anyway, I would rather pursue a willing and enthusiastic woman. I don’t need her to initiate calls or texts, but I do need her to enthusiastically return my communication. So I agree with Evan in this regard.
     
     

  14. 44
    GreatGal

    Rose 43,
    Can you please explain how two people (after a few dates in which the man do most of the initiating) who take turns asking each other out, suggesting places to go and initiating texting equals FWB scenerio?
    Just because you personally don’t find it romantic, doesn’t mean all women doesn’t find taking turns romantic.
    If there are males out there who find taking turns to be a nice change as opposed to doing all the heavy lifting all the time (even after a few dates), then why jump to the conclusion that those males are NOT after a loving long-term relationship?  If (maybe minority) of males wants to feel wanted too and find females who like to text first and suggest places that SHE would like to visit and have dates, why is that NOT Romantic for both sides?
     

  15. 45
    Vanessa

    @ John 39
    “I agree with you. Both people should do the pursuing and the courting.”
    I agree with John here.   To me it’s a sign of confidence in yourself and in the budding romance to take some initiative on both parts.   I want to be able to let a guy know I’m into him, had fun, and would like to do future things with him just as much as I’d want him to let me know.  
     
    A while after my boyfriend and I started dating, I mentioned to him how refreshing it was that neither of us held to the ‘rules’ when we first started dating.  He would contact me (call, text, email) when he would want to and vice versa.   I enjoyed his regular communications and he stated he liked that I wasn’t afraid to contact him either.  In his words, ‘I liked that you were confident enough to take the initiative and didn’t wait for me to always contact you.  It showed you were interested in me and I liked that.’
     
    I guess, according to the studies referenced, he’s an exception like John, thank goodness!  I don’t think I could handle a guy who couldn’t appreciate my confidence to also make a move, who would want that?

  16. 46
    Frimmel

    re John in #39 via Vanessa in #48–
     
    ‘I liked that you were confident enough to take the initiative and didn’t wait for me to always contact you.  It showed you were interested in me and I liked that.’
     
    I agree with John and totally agree with Vanessa’s boyfriend. If a woman is always waiting for me to call first, make plans etc, I start wondering if she actually likes me or thinks I’m simply ‘good enough for now.’ Do women want equality or chivalry?

  17. 47
    Frimmel

    Evan in #49
     
    You’re not wrong. But neither are the pick-up artists wrong. But neither of you is really talking about the sort of relationships I’m interested in.
     
    But patterns established early are hard to break or adjust. If the woman is always passive and I’m always in control there isn’t a collaboration and I’m always responsible for everything. It’s how men end up in the dog house without realizing they’ve done something wrong. It is what I call ‘read my mind and do the right thing.’ It hardly ever works out well in the long run.

  18. 48
    JustMe

    I don’t think I have ever felt “chemisty” on a first date.  That only comes after I get to know someone better.  Selena #42 describes the things that eliminate a 2nd date for me. 
     
    Evan #49
     
    “Personally, the only way I know if she’s interested is if I call her for a second date. If she says yes, she’s interested.”
     
    Thank you! 
     
    If I am interested I respond right away and I say yes every time you ask me, if I can.  There are times when I have another committment but I will say “I would love to but I can’t then,  can we choose a different date/time?” 
     
    I usually ask him out for date 3 or 4.

  19. 49
    John

    Evan @49
     
    You’re weeding out women who are waiting for a confident, masculine man who believe in themselves so much that it doesn’t even occur to them that the answer would be no.
    Be that man, instead of complaining that women don’t text you first.
     
    I hear your advice. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. This is my last comment on this topic.  Perhaps I have discounted women in the past for not following up on their own. But I will say this. I live in a very populous area so there are hundreds if not thousands of single women in my dating radius. There are so many types of women. For every  Rose (comment #43) that feels the guy should do the heavy lifting, there is a Vanessa (comment #48) who doesn’t mind taking initiative right away.
     
    So if I was lucky enough to have a first date with Rose and then a first date with Vanessa who would I pursue? Vanessa, if she took the initiative since my odds of having a successful 2nd date with her are far greater than with Rose where it would be a crapshoot. It doesn’t make me devalue Vanessa- it makes me more into her since she is showing she is into me.
     
    Since I live right in the NYC area, I can afford to pass up the girls that want me to be more proactive because there are plenty that will share the heavy lifting(calling or texting me on their own accord after the first date) . Maybe its geographical but I find plenty of them.  It doesn’t make me less of a masculine guy. It just makes me a smarter dater by putting the odds in my favor.

    1. 49.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      John,

      Respectfully, it’s really not “heavy lifting” to call a woman you like. You’re turning it into some game or power play. It’s not. If you like her, call her. If you don’t like her, don’t call her.

      Just don’t expect women to pursue you. Many of the BEST ones don’t feel the need to pursue – I should know: they’re my clients.

      Your method is self-selecting and it rules out lots of women. I would think you’d have more power if you didn’t feel the need to put women in the pursuer role and just embraced the traditionally masculine role. You’re telling me you don’t have to. But that’s like a woman saying she doesn’t “have to” write a good online dating profile because her photos get plenty of attention. It’s flawed thinking. You’re gonna be the best dater, John, when you have the power to make every woman like you and want to go out with you again, so that 95% of the time when you call the next day, she says “yes” to a second date. You don’t need her to pursue you if she likes you, my friend.

  20. 50
    Goldie

    @ Selena 45: “Stating lack of chemistry is easier than going into details with a virtual stranger one doesn’t want to see again.”
     
    Exactly! My take on this is, “there was no chemistry” is probably code for ‘I didn’t like you enough to want to see you again, and I see no point in explaining to you what, exactly, I didn’t like, since you’re a total stranger that I met once.” Makes sense to me. Guys, would you rather have a woman give you a laundry list of everything you did wrong on date one, or just be told that there won’t be a date two, for reasons not stated? I once canceled a date and told the guy “this isn’t going to work”. It was a first date and I canceled it after receiving his text, which said “I can’t wait to meet you in person, and then we’ll make sweet love“. I texted back saying date is canceled, he replies, “I don’t understand. Why?” Did I really have to spell it out? How would it have made things better for him or me if I told him he was a creep?
    It’s not like women are scatterbrained creatures who turn men down at random, and don’t know why they’re doing it. It’s just easier not having to explain things to a stranger. FWIW, I’ve been told that by a man myself, as well. Looking back, I really don’t want to know the specific reasons why that particular guy didn’t like me, as we were a pretty terrible match anyway. I’m just relieved that he felt no chemistry.

  21. 51
    Cinnamon Girl

    @Brenda 29
    Thanks for the encouragement!  I am dating a guy I just met.  The chemistry is good but he is trying to rush me to the bedroom.  He seems to keep planing camping trips and all of that for “our” future but I am not there emotionally.  
    So it helps to hear about someone who waited a bit and the guy stuck around. 
    Weirdly with this guy. I really like him, but my friend G keeps popping into my head.. and i keep thinking I met her future mate. 

  22. 52
    Dave

    @ Evan, John, Frimmel, etc.
    As a confident, take charge kinda guy who has no problem asking women out and getting to know them, I kind of get where John is coming from.  It is nice sometimes for women to show initiative.  And they do.  It make me feel “desired” in a way I guess.  And who doesn’t want that?  I’m not bashing the “do nothing” or “mirroring” philosophy, just, from a man’s perspective (ok… my perspective…) when all’s equal, I’m more attracted to someone who shows some initiative rather than someone who I constantly have to reach out to (John’s “sort of” point way back in #10 and follow ups).  But that being said, it is best when this initiative comes at least a few dates in – not right from the get go.  Me = picky much?  Yeah….I know…but just telling it like it is from my viewpoint.
     

  23. 53
    Julia

    John-I know you say
    “It just makes me a smarter dater by putting the odds in my favor.”
    But does it? You are still single I assume so obviously it hasn’t worked that well. Maybe you are just dating for fun then? Which proves Evan’s point as well. Women shouldn’t have to pursue men, when they do it puts them at a huge disadvantage, leaving them often wondering where they stand. Men who want a woman pursue her, I know, I’ve experienced it. They don’t leave a woman wondering for a second how they feel about her. I wasn’t positive I wanted to go out with my BF on a second date but it showed so much interest in me I really could figure out a reason why I shouldn’t go out with him. His pursuit of me early on put us both in the position to be in a happy relationship. And guess what? 5 months later, I don’t just sit back. I still let him lead but if I want to talk, I call him. So don’t think your effort early on will set the tone.

  24. 54
    Goldie

    Whoo boy, I keep reading on this blog how hard dating is for women in NYC, and John’s post is just another confirmation of that. I don’t know how I would’ve fared on the dating market if I had to shove other women out of my way to be the first to call a guy after a date or ask him out. Where I live, when I was dating 2 years ago, it was pretty simple. You go out once, if he doesn’t ask you out again, that means he’s not interested. You try to call him first or ask him out on a second date, you will come across as too needy and there won’t be a second date. Once I got the hang of it, it was pretty easy to just sit back and let the emails and texts roll in. I have to say this only holds true for the first few dates. I mean, it’s not like, if my boyfriend of 1.5 years stops emailing and texting me now, that he will never hear from me again. But for the first few dates, this seemed to be the game both sides were willing to play.

  25. 55
    Cinnamon Girl

    @53 John
    John,
    I am confused by your remark. Please explain the subtext to me.  By heavy lifting.. are you just talking about the women calling you, or do you really mean if there is no sexual fooling around on the first couple of dates you get bored.
    I am sincere in my question.  I am a very passionate woman.  I miss sex tremendously.  I just want to actually be in a reciprocal love relationship.  The guy I just started seeing got wind of how passionate I am from a bit of kissing and “leaning” and now he wants to full steam ahead and I am not ready.  I am always wondering.. I don’t want to be a tease, but I also don’t want to wake up feeling a little bit in love with some guy that I just don’t know well enough to be in bed with.  
    I think this current guy is going to take off if I don’t go forward at a pace too fast for me. I say too fast reluctantly, because I would love to be into the sex part.. I am just trying to avoid the broken heart part.
    What do you think.. Give a little detail for those not as good at subtext.

  26. 56
    Suzanne

    John I think your points are very valid. Unlike some of the other women, I was  one who not only followed up with my husband after our first date, I was the one who actually asked him out on the first date. And you know what? He loved it. If I see someone I want, I let it be known in a not so subtle way. Prior to meeting my hubby, I had some good and bad outcomes by going that route.
    So Evan just because I was very forward in my approach and didn’t wait for a guy to make many of the traditional moves, I still consider myself amongst the best women. Your comment stated that the best available women don’t need to pursue. I consider myself at that time I was single to be amongst the best with what I had to offer. So to suggest that I wasn’t high quality because I didn’t sit back and let the guy lead makes me cringe.
    I have heard stories from my male friends and coworkers that women today are very aggressive both sexually and dating-wise. I guess I was ahead of my time. But them, like me, doesn’t make us slutty, or low quality or less worthy of a good guy. Based on the way the males here are responding, it seems there is a market for men who like when women court them right back.
     
     

  27. 57
    Selena

    @ Goldie
    I’ve never lived in NYC, but from reading forums it does sometimes seem to be a very different world than the rest of the country. :)
    I always thought it was common to let men take the lead in early dating. If you tried to ‘chase’ one, you would chase him away more likely than not. lol. But after you got to know each other better, became more comfortable together, who cares who calls whom first? And if you manage to become an actual couple you don’t even think in terms of ‘rules’ or roles. 
     
    If someone thinks initiating calls, texts, emails is “heavy lifting”, I shudder to think what they are going to make of parenthood. ;)

  28. 58
    Frimmel

    I think it interesting that John was admonished by Evan for turning things into a game or some sort of power play and then Julia come along and says Evan is right since it is a disadvantage for a woman to pursue.
     
    Goldie in #54
     
    “It was a first date and I canceled it after receiving his text, which said “I can’t wait to meet you in person, and then we’ll make sweet love“. I texted back saying date is canceled, he replies, “I don’t understand. Why?” Did I really have to spell it out? How would it have made things better for him or me if I told him he was a creep?”
     
    Yes, it would have made it better for him. Since he said it in the first place he didn’t get or realize it was inappropriate and since you just dumped him without a word he is likely confused why his demonstration of confidence and boldness was ill received, “Don’t women like confidence?” So his takeaway isn’t, “Don’t presume you’ll get up her skirts on a first date. I went to far with the make love line and she thought it was creep,” but “Women are so confusing. What did I do?” He doesn’t learn a lesson because no lesson was given and he’s left to be awkward and confused and inappropriate with the next woman.

    1. 58.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Jesus, I don’t like where this thread is going.

      Women, if you want to proactively call men, text men, ask out men, initiate the first kiss with men, offer sex to men, ask them to be exclusive, propose to them, pay for the wedding and plan the honeymoon, God bless you.

      My only point is that you shouldn’t have to, since most men want to do these things and understand that these things are largely expected of them. I only observe the rules: I don’t make them.

    2. 58.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      Seriously, Frimmel, if a guy can’t tell the difference between confident and creepy, he’s gonna have to just take his lumps until he figures out that a first date text about making sweet love is way on the creepy side.

  29. 59
    Julia

    @Frimmel #63
     
    Its not any of our jobs to teach people we are talking to or have gone out on a date with what they are doing wrong. If I had to teach every creep I ran into how not to be a creep I wouldn’t have hours in the day to do anything else.
     
    And yes, I believe that if you fall prey to someone else’s game you are at a disadvantage. Being an authentic, feminine woman who only dates men who treat you well you are at an advantage. I don’t see how there is anything to debate here. Getting treated well-advantage, getting treated poorly=disadvantage.

  30. 60
    John

    Cinnamon Girl @60
    I am confused by your remark. Please explain the subtext to me.  By heavy lifting.. are you just talking about the women calling you, or do you really mean if there is no sexual fooling around on the first couple of dates you get bored.
    I am sincere in my question.
     
    Cinnamon- I am not referring to sex at all. Maybe the phrase “heavy lifting” is too strong of a word. The gist of that means the girl to at the very least send me a text or phone call the next day if I paid for the first date which I always do. That’s all I would ask. Now presumably a few days would go by before the 2nd date took place. During that time, I will certainly text first to say hello or call at night to talk. I just like it when the girl will do the same to me also. If 5 days goes by between dates and she hasn’t texted or called me first during those 5 days, then I will assume she has a low interest level. And I will focus my attention on a girl that will reciprocate in kind. Now if the girl even offers to pay something by the 3rd date, then even more kudos. That’s what I mean by heavy lifting.
     
    As for the sex, I am not referring to that at all. If I like a girl and she is courting me as much as I am courting her, then I am cool with going around the bases on her timeframe. And if she is aggressive and makes rounding the bases even faster, then that’s good too.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>