How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?

How Do I Make Sense of All The Different Dating Advice Out There?

Evan, I have been reading a lot of different dating advice websites, especially the ones written for MEN. I have noticed a trend in telling men to get the women to chase THEM. (Ask Men is one example) I see a lot of advice to women about why men disappear, what to do when they disappear, etc., but it seems that men are being COACHED to disappear, as a power play, a way to get the upper hand, and to get the woman to chase THEM. So if women are being coached to play hard to get, and men are playing the same game, what does this mean for male/female relationships?

In this incarnation of my dating life I have decided that I am not going to chase men. (In my younger days I admit that I did, and no good ever came of it.) This time around I absolutely I will not chase men, nor be baited into chasing one. (Yes, men are advised to bait, hook, and then ignore a woman, to get her to do the chasing). BTW, I am not a “rules” girl, I read that book, and feel dumber for having read it. I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes. (They call it mysterious, but I call it secretive & evasive.)

So while I am not a hardcore Rules girl, I am a little old fashioned and want a man to pursue me, not hand me his business card and expect me to call him. Or e-mail me endlessly on Match.com but never ask to meet me face to face. What do you think of the role reversal being promoted by sites such as Ask Men (they call it “The System”) Do you think many men are following that advice ? –S.E.

Hoo boy. I’m not sure where to begin.

I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy.

I guess I’ll start with how I give dating advice, and how I think it’s different than many of the other sources out there.

Like many people, my perspective has been shaped by my own experience. However, unlike many people, I had a few unique things going for me.

1) I come from a happy and highly functional nuclear family, so I not only had a model of the kind of marriage I wanted, but I strove to emulate it. Many people who give advice come from broken homes, abusive relationships and unfortunate backgrounds, none of which are a crime. But I think my past is a strength, inasmuch as I have a very healthy outlook on marriage.

2) I am – at the risk of immodesty – very confident and flirtatious. Let’s just say I had considerable practice in online dating, dating and relationships. Many people who give dating advice have been married for 30 years and don’t know anything about dating. Many others (think pick-up artists) came to do so because they are shy, awkward and insecure. But unless you want to attract a guy like that, why would you care what such men think?

3) I am married and in an incredible relationship because I followed my own advice. And I would guess you’d be more interested in how you can understand and land the confident, successful, happily married guy, as opposed to the weak, insecure, jealous, inexperienced guy. Then again, I could be wrong. I’m always willing to risk being wrong by having opinions. What kind of coach would I be if I didn’t have opinions?

4) I’m not afraid to stand on principle. Other coaches are marketers – their only desire is to a) pray that you like them and b) convince you to buy their products. My loyalty is not to my own biases or my own bottom line, but to the truth. I don’t view the world based on how I’d LIKE it to be; I pay attention to how it IS and advise on how you can best react to reality.

And very often, reality isn’t pretty. Would I rather tell you the truth or validate your worldview so that you don’t shoot the messenger?

The answer should be obvious.

Real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them.

People come here because they expect to be told the truth, rather than some rah-rah “all women are goddesses” bullshit that I don’t believe and I don’t expect you to believe.

Unless you believe the equivalent bullshit that “all men are noble studs”.

Which, of course, they’re not.

Now that I’m done tooting my own horn, let’s refocus on the advice you’ve chosen to cite, from AskMen.com

I just went to Alexa to check out the site’s demographics. What did I discover?

The target audience for AskMen is men 18-24, men without children, and men who live at home or are in school. When I clicked to see their income, most of these men didn’t even HAVE income. Compare that to Esquire readers, the majority of whom make six figures. Which kind of man are you looking for, S.E.?

Basically, I’m asking you what difference it makes if a website for boys is giving those boys advice that will work on insecure teenaged girls with low self-esteem?

That’s right. It doesn’t. Real men don’t read AskMen.com.

Guys who play games eliminate themselvesJust as real men don’t play games, use power plays, or try to get the woman to chase them. This is run-of-the-mill pick-up artist advice for awkward teens, not advice that 40-year-old men and women are expected to utilize.

From this paragraph, it sounds to me like you know what you’re doing:

I do want a man to pursue me, but when he does, I will be increasingly receptive to him, and once a relationship has been established, I won’t mind taking the initiative when appropriate. I won’t wait 2 days to return his calls, or only see him 2 times a week, or play all the mysterious stuff that Rules promotes.

And if you know what you’re doing, it doesn’t impact you one iota if some guy is running a game on you. Guys who play games just eliminate themselves from dating confident, secure women. Right, S.E.?

At the end of the day, whether it’s a man playing games or a woman playing games, one thing is for sure: everybody ends up losing.

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Comments:

  1. 61
    nathan

    Evan, dating isn’t a one sized fits all operation. John’s comments here are very reasonable, and multiple male commenters agree with his points – at least to some degree. You seem to act sometimes like every man is either a powerhouse alpha or else doesn’t get it. We all deal with this stuff differently. Like John, I regularly have decided that a lack of action of some form or another from a woman is a sign of either disinterest, or luke warm interest at best. And honestly, most of my pursing has ended in empty hands. The times I’ve been most proactive have led me nowhere because usually, they’re also the times when I’m most blind to what’s really present, and living on physical attraction and wishful thinking.
     
    I’ve had plenty of good, long term relationships over the years. Including currently with a great woman who has no trouble stepping and sharing the leadership role. It’s not that I didn’t make the effort early on. I don’t here John, or a few others saying they want to be pursued. It’s a pretty small percentage of guys who are that far on active-passive scale. And actually, It’s that I wasn’t putting 110% in, and only getting something like an enthusiastic yes in response. Frankly, if a woman goes along with my views all or most of the time, it’s pretty dull. I don’t want a clone, nor do I want a mirror. Furthermore, I don’t think this is just a geography thing. It’s very common for folks to date multiple people while doing online dating. And if both parties don’t make a bit of effort to stand out and demonstrate some interest, then it’s going to be hard.
     
    I’ve had dozens of women say yes to second dates over the years. At least 50 in the 10 years I did online dating. I’m a good conversationalist. I’m non-reactive, and not uptight. Generally, women enjoy my company. At least some of these women I went on second dates with knew pretty quickly that they didn’t want a relationship with me, but pushed the “what if card” and figured they’d have a good time, if nothing else. I’ve done the same with a few women over the years. It’s just how it is. Saying yes to multiple dates, going out and having a good time. Even making out sometimes doesn’t give you the full picture of what’s going on.
     
    Oh, and Rose, the majority of marriages historically were about property, procreation, and/or social status. This whole men pursue for love thing is a modern notion. Less than a few hundred years old.

    1. 61.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Nathan, who says, “I regularly have decided that a lack of action of some form or another from a woman is a sign of either disinterest, or luke warm interest at best.”

      Sorry, buddy, but you’re wrong.

      And not just cause I’m telling you that. Women are coming on this board and telling you that. They want you to claim them with your effort. And yet you and John and Frimmel are defending this under the guise of equality.

      You have every right not to call back a woman after two good dates because you’re “unsure” about her, but what if you called her for a third date and she said “yes”?

      Wouldn’t that indicate that she’s open to getting to know you better?

      You’re basically conceding defeat without finding out for sure. There’s some protective mechanism in there. I don’t know what it is. But women do the exact same things – they cut off guys like you who are too passive. How does that feel? Not too good. So I have one really simple answer for you:

      If you’re a guy and you want to see a girl? Call her. You’ll either get a yes or a no. Far better than falsely assuming the answer is no – when so many women want you to take the initiative and claim them.

      There’s no downside to my approach. She doesn’t like you? She doesn’t call back. Big deal.

      So why are you resisting? Seems to me that you’d rather be “right” and wait in vain for more women to be proactive, than to be “effective”, which is trying things my way.

      Just because some women are proactive and you can sit back and wait for them doesn’t mean your way is as effective as mine, by the way. It just means a broken clock is right twice a day.

  2. 62
    Goldie

    @ Frimmel #63, like Julia already said, it’s not my job to educate him. My job is to ensure as much safety for myself and my family as it is reasonably possible, while I’m out there searching for love. As soon as I find out that a man I’m about to meet face-to-face for the first time might be creepy or crazy, I owe it to myself and my children to cut off all contact as fast as I can. If he’s curious as to why, he can ask his therapist, which I am not.

  3. 63
    michelle

    #50, women want chivarly (men and women are equal, and different, so that’s good enough) and we didn’t say ALWAYS waiting around for a man to initiate.  We’re talking about the first few times.
     
    Ignore what Evan is saying at your own peril.  This is the way we are built as humans, men and women.  It’s been that way for millions of years, ain’t about to change any time soon.

  4. 64
    Ami

    Best quote ever!!  “Real men don’t read AskMen.com.”  ROTFLMAO!

  5. 65
    John

    You have every right not to call back a woman after two good dates because you’re “unsure” about her, but what if you called her for a third date and she said “yes”?
    Wouldn’t that indicate that she’s open to getting to know you better?
     
    Evan I know I said I would stop posting on this but there is something that you are not realizing. You make it sound like if a woman goes out with you 2 or 3 times even though she doesn’t do any kind of initiating, that all is good and she has a high interest level and is open to getting to know me better. That is a very costly assumption in both time and money and ego. Maybe there is the occasional time that a woman sits back really does have a high interest level. Just like you can play blackjack and hit with a 20 and pull the ace. But if you play that way in the long run, you will lose most times.
    Girls that never initiated with me many times agreed to go on 3 or 4 dates with me. And then many times they would invariably flake or disappear or just stop returning phone calls. And it wasn’t because I pushed for sex or was cheap or a douche. Its because they had a low interest level to begin with and they were waiting for a bigger and better deal to come along. So during that time I am out the cost of 3 or 4 dates, plus my lost time plus my bruised ego. So I changed my approach to only focus on women who are proactive and my experience completely changed for the better.
     
    Once you get to read the tea leaves that when a woman doesn’t initiate, it means she has a low interest level. Sometimes a girl being proactive or sitting back is just a barometer of how a guy can tell what her true interest level is. I can tell you that girls that initiated things never flaked on me, never disappeared or stopped returning calls on me. If things ended it was because of other issue- not low interest level.  And you state to Nathan “while you wait in vain for more women to be more proactive”. I don’t know about where Nathan is, but in NYC I am not waiting in vain. It happens all the time.
     
    I know its your blog and I don’t want to be disrespectful, but almost all the males are against you on this one. And for a blog that tries to spell out to women what guys think, that’s a contradiction. I don’t see too many guys on here saying “Oh its a turn off when women try to ask me out or call me up because I like to do the pursuing”. The only male toeing that line is you.

    1. 65.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @John, you’re not being disrespectful at all. This is exactly how to debate in a comments section. I just think you’ve created a sort of closed feedback loop. A self-fulfilling prophesy.

      You’re starting off with this assumption – and presuming that it’s true:

      “Once you get to read the tea leaves that when a woman doesn’t initiate, it means she has a low interest level.”

      I’m TELLING YOU THAT’S NOT TRUE. This is the cornerstone of all of my advice. Women don’t initiate for many, many, many reasons – you just ASSUME it’s because they’re not interested. Here are a few others:

      -Because she generally doesn’t have to. Interested men have always pursued her so she never had to reach out.
      -Because she’s traditionally feminine. She appreciates a man who knows what he wants and rewards him for his efforts with her warmth, appreciation and enthusiasm (btw, I never told you to go on a 3rd date with a woman who is cold and ambivalent. I’ve only told you that just because a woman isn’t calling you doesn’t mean she’s not interested)
      -Because she’s been listening to my most popular advice from Why He Disappeared: Don’t Do Anything. My theory: if you want a man to show you he values you, let him make the effort for you. FAR too many women have turned themselves into men – calling, texting, reaching out, making plans, only to discover that the men have felt a) emasculated, b) turned off that she’s doing his job, c) that she was weak and needy, and d) that she singlehandedly kept the relationship alive with an ambivalent man because she was calling him to set up concert plans. Yet the second she stopped calling, he dropped off the face of the planet.

      These are the reasons that women aren’t calling you, John. You think it’s cause they’re not interested.

      I hope you can entertain the possibility that there’s more to it. Because once you do, and you assume that women are ALWAYS interested in you, that’s when you’ll have even MORE success with them.

  6. 66
    Cat5

    Goldie @ 54 stated: “It was a first date and I canceled it after receiving his text, which said “I can’t wait to meet you in person, and then we’ll make sweet love“. I texted back saying date is canceled, he replies, “I don’t understand. Why?” Did I really have to spell it out? How would it have made things better for him or me if I told him he was a creep?”
     
    In February, I finally felt ready to start dating again after I broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years. 
     
    It was only 4 years ago when I was on Match.com, and that was where I met him.  The thing is, I’ve had more than a few guys send me e-mails/texts similar to what Goldie mentioned above after we had set-up the 1st date, but before we actually went out.  Why?  Has something changed?  I never received anything like that when I was on Match.com before.  Of course, I cancelled the dates and stopped communication with these individuals.  When did this type of communication become appropriate?  Isn’t that more suited to AdultFriendFinder than Match.com?  Or are have they all become the same now?
     
    I also met a guy I went out with a couple times, who told me he couldn’t see me anymore because he’d also been dating another woman (who was younger than me — I’m 50 and she’s 35 — he’s 53), which I expected, but he decided to be exclusive with her, and he cited her taking the initiative in contacting him as part of the reason why he decided to be exclusive with her — she seemed more interested.
     
    It’s been a very disappointing experience overall so far.

  7. 67
    Cat5

    Oh, and I forgot the guy that I had scheduled a date with, and he called me at 9:00 p.m. a few nights before to finalize the details.  Then he e-mailed me at 12:30 a.m. and at 8:00 a.m.  In the 8:00 a.m. e-mail, he cancelled our date.  When I suggested rescheduling he declined because I had not responded to his 9:00 p.m. telephone call quickly enough leading him to believe I was not interested and too busy to be dating.

  8. 68
    Karmic Equation

    @John, Frimmel, and Nathan

    All things being equal, the girl who shows initiative and investment in me, will be the one I most likely choose to pursue something with.

    And if you’re ok with not seeing woman #1 ever again, that works out for the both of you :) But if woman #1 were a woman like me, who make great girl friends, but who wants a confident man, you’ve just weeded yourself out of the running with woman #1.

    Yes, you three are atypical in requiring a woman to court YOU to indicate HER interest. Maybe that’s a consequence of online dating? I can tell you that IRL, the kind of men I like would think I’m desperate if I pursued them. They want a woman to be the prize they earn, because they already know THEY THEMSELVES are a prize, so if they deign to give me their time and attention, then I would, of course,<Karmic rolls her eyes> be flattered and receptive (in their minds, part of their cockiness and their charm).

    However, if you’ve met and have had successful LONG-TERM relationships with woman doing what you’re doing (waiting for the WOMAN to express HER interest), then there’s no need to change your tactics. However, I’d be willing to bet none of the relationships where SHE initiated with you lasted more than 6 months. So if something always ends up being amiss in the relationship once it gets going, and you can’t really put a finger on it, it just could be that her pursuit of you, while flattering at the beginning, may conflict with your “inner man” biological programming, where it feels weird for him to be the hunted instead of the hunter.

    Evan’s right in that the typical woman wants “…a confident, masculine man who believe in themselves so much that it doesn’t even occur to them that the answer would be no.” That confident man is HOT. A guy who wants ME to pursue HIM? Not so much. In fact in addition to my thinking the guy is uninterested, I would tend to think he’s insecure and lazy. I’m not thinking that he has options. I’m thinking he doesn’t know how to show his interest to a woman…or he has other issues, so it’s just as well he didn’t pursue me.

    But you might be lucky in finding women like GreatGal, Vanessa, and Suzanne, who don’t mind pursuing. There is a lid for every pot.

    John #73
    Girls that never initiated with me many times agreed to go on 3 or 4 dates with me. And then many times they would invariably flake or disappear or just stop returning phone calls. And it wasn’t because I pushed for sex or was cheap or a douche.

    John, sorry to have to say this, but it could be that they traded up. While you WERE a nice guy, etc., someone “better” (whatever that means to THOSE GIRLS) came along and pushed you off the list. It doesn’t mean that they had a low interest level in you, but rather maybe someone MORE interesting came along. Or maybe, similar to the “Mommy’s don’t wear thongs” response you got that turned you off, you inadvertently did or said something that turned THEM off. I’m guessing that if a man has plentiful options in NYC, then so do the women, especially the good looking ones. Competition goes both ways…and good looking women have the advantage over good looking men.

    @GreatGal & Vanessa & Suzanne

    Most attractive women can have sex any time she wants. And most men will not turn down sex with an attractive woman (and sometimes with a not-so-attractive woman)…So while you may not be offering sex on date 1 with the guy you asked out, that guy pretty much assumes you will by date 3 because YOU are pursuing HIM, so it’s not a matter of IF he will have sex with you, but WHEN. So the ONLY thing he knows he has to do is go on dates with you until you put out, which he knows is usually date 3. Not a huge investment for sure sex with a good-looking woman. And once he has sex with you, he’s in the driver’s seat regarding having a “relationship” with you. You’re not in an exclusive relationship until HE offers it to you; you don’t get to marry him unless HE proposes (unless you’re willing to do that, too.)

    IMO, your pursuing doesn’t mean you’re confident. It just means you know you have a you-know-what and that the man you’re pursuing finds you attractive. That’s it. Of COURSE, a man whom you’ve pursued and are having sex with will tell you he loves your “confidence,” because that’s what he knows you want to hear. You can put this to the test…the next time you pursue a man, DON’T have sex with him until the 8th date. Bet you that man won’t be around for the 8th date. Do a second test. Go out with a man who pursues YOU and don’t have sex with him until the 8th date. Bet you he’ll still be around if he’s doing the pursuing.

    In courting, a woman’s confidence doesn’t get expressed the same way as a man’s confidence. A confident man “pursues because it doesn’t occur to him you would say no” (EMK); so the corressponding confident woman DOESN’T pursue because it doesn’t occur to her that a man who’s attracted to her WON’T pursue her. If a man doesn’t pursue me, I forget about him. His loss. I never think of it as MY loss.

    @Tom10

    I don’t think I’ve ever used the word “chemistry” to describe what I’m looking for in a man. So I’ve never looked for it on dates and I’ve never DQ’d a guy for it’s lack. I don’t think about that at all.

    Instead, I use my filters. My filters are pretty simple, if a guy is confident enough to approach (I date IRL not online), he’s passed my first filter.

    Then as I get to know him better, I’m assessing his genuineness. Is who he’s showing to me the “real him” or the him he thinks I want to see. Do I like what I see? If I feel he’s not genuine. He filters himself out of the running. If he passes that filter and my liking filter, then I ask myself, would I want to have sex with him. If my mind is neutral about it, I go on another date with (assuming he asks) and as I continue to assess his character, I try to imagine seeing him naked OR letting him see me naked (not on that date, but in the future, I mean) — and if I’m either NOT excited about seeing him naked NOR yearning for him to kiss me…then no more dates. He’s effectively friend-zoned.

    Once he’s passed my genuineness, liking, and bangable filters, then it’s just a matter of how well and consistently he pursues me that determines when we’ll have sex. From then on, a relationship usually evolves.

    @Cat5 #75

    Thank your lucky stars he cancelled. He did you a favor. You don’t want to be dating guys like that anyway.

  9. 69
    Selena

    What I’m curious about regarding the woman being proactive, co-courting stance is: do you men who do it apply it to the women YOU are very much into? Or does it go out the window if she is someone you are super attracted to?
     
    I ask because the men who became my partners, who loved me, who lived with me, and in one case had a child with me, were all men who wanted to talk to me everyday. Who wanted to see me as often as possible. Who pursued me because they wanted to. I didn’t have to be “proactive”, they would have beaten me to it had it even occurred to me to try.  They knew I was interested because I showed I was every time we talked and every time we saw each other. I didn’t follow someone’s made up “rules” – I just enjoyed their company and they enjoyed mine.
     
    So I wonder, you guys who are willing to bail after a second, or third date because the woman hasn’t initiated anything…you say it’s because you detect a lack of interest, or potential lack of interest on her part. Perhaps it’s really a lack of interest on your part instead? Because blowing off a woman just because she didn’t call you first, or suggest a date isn’t an effective strategy to get a woman you are really into. Effective strategy to get rid of one you feel ‘meh’ about though.

  10. 70
    dean

     
    Cat5 #75
    When I suggested rescheduling he declined because I had not responded to his 9:00 p.m. telephone call quickly enough leading him to believe I was not interested and too busy to be dating
     
    The part you are missing isn’t just that you didn’t call back immediately. Its that he had other options and another woman swooped in and stole your date. Things happen at light speed in the dating world. If this guy didn’t have any other girl lined up, it wouldn’t have mattered as much. But he did obviously. Keep in mind this cuts both ways. if I try to date a female and it takes me a little longer due to business travel or working late then I miss out also.
    Both sexes need to realize competition is fierce and if you just sit back or are not proactive enough, you will get trumped by someone who wants it more. I have been online dating for 3 years and I see the changes in aggressiveness on both sides. I cant imagine how it compares to those who online dated 6, 7 years ago. Its a different animal altogether.
     
     

  11. 71
    AllenB

    @Evan
    What you are saying applies to SOME women, namely the ones who are interested and don’t initiate. No doubt there are some women who are interested and DO initiate. Maybe they are fewer than the other kind or maybe not.

    The bottom line question: if NYC John is getting as many second and beyond  dates as he wants with the kinds of women he wants, why does it matter?

     
     
     

  12. 72
    Fi

    All my past relationships were initiated by me. And when I look back now I can finally see what had gone wrong. I’m not saying these relationships all are dead now because I initiated them, but rather I mean that while I was being so busy making all the plans and let the guys sit back on the couch, THEY GOT BORED EASILY AND QUICKLY. (And then the relationship drained)
     
    The lesson I learned from them is: Let the man to be man if you want him to be a man. 
     
    To be honest, sit back and wait is never my thing. But if you ask me next time if I happen to meet a guy I’m interested will I initiate the contact, my answer will be NO. I do like to go after for what I like and who I like, but by doing so in the dating scene I’ll be doing the guys’ job again. I bet the guy will feel flattered for sure, but then where’s the chance for him to be the man? Plus if a guy needs me to tell him what to do, when to meet, where to eat, duh, I feel like I’m his mom but not his date.
     
    Of course there’re always exceptions, but it’s ok, I’m just one women and he is just one man. Really not too much to miss if we are not meant for each other.

  13. 73
    Morris

    I think it’s in the man’s best interest to pursue the woman.  To me it comes naturally so it’s really not a problem.  But I also think it’s perfectly fine for women to text/call after a date to show interest.  A few times when I’ve been ‘on the market’ I’ve been in situations where I’m dating a few women.(Not sleeping with just dating.  Anyone who’s done online dating with some success can relate.)  And I can remember a couple of times where a girl showed some initiative and I ended up dating exclusively with her.  When you’re in a situation where you have to weed out potential dates I can see where ‘waiting’ can totally backfire.  It really depends on the situation.

  14. 74
    Morris

    @Selena #78 – I can’t speak to other people but here is my experience.  If I’m going on dates and one women happens to be head and shoulders above everyone else I’ll do whatever it takes and pursue her.  She doesn’t need to call or anything.
     
    However, if I happen to find myself in a situation where there are a couple really good women that happen to find me desirable.(Lucky me!)  Well, I have to admit that if one shows more interest it would only work in her favor.  I’m a busy person so I can’t spend all my time trying to get to really REALLY get to know multiple people.  And to be honest it felt good that she was interested in me and let me know it.  Of course I let her know as well.  It wasn’t like I sat back and let the women come to me or anything.

  15. 75
    Tom10

    John
    “So during that time I am out the cost of 3 or 4 dates, plus my lost time plus bruised ego”
     
    I didn’t want to get involved in this discussion but I think Selena has it.  I’ll be a guy to step in and support Evan, although I date irl not online, so as Karmic said it might be different. 
     
    I think one thing you’re forgetting John (and the other guys) is that you are dating with your interests at heart whereas Evan is speaking with the interests of women at heart.Of course you are going to date the women who reciprocate quickly – that way you can’t lose. You know she likes you so you know it’s just a matter of time before you get sex and whatever. However, the woman doesn’t know how ambivalent or keen you really are. Online dating sounds pretty brutal for guys so of course you’ll take the easy route if there is one. A woman asking me out? Sure I’ll take it.
     
    However, women can lose – if she asks out a guy who has just been knocked back a few times and hasn’t had sex in months she has no way of knowing if he’s just filling time, and enjoying the sex until he meets someone he’s so crazy about he just has to have her.
     
    Also, women need to give guys an easy ‘out’ at the start if that’s what he wants. If I’m not interested in a woman after the first few dates the easiest thing to do is just not ask her out again. It’s just painful to witness when women don’t pick up on this cue and keep contacting me and asking me out – I’m mortified for them. Then I either have to leave them hanging, or come out and say: “I don’t like you enough so let’s leave it”.
     
    Let’s just say by some miracle I met Jennifer Aniston (or any other fantastic gal) and I got flirting with her, and got her number. Well you can bet your bottom dollar I will ask her out, and if she says yes I will be the happiest guy there is. Then I’ll ask her out again, and again. Sure she may be playing me for an ego trip but I’m willing to take that gamble on the off chance I win. That’s what I want to feel when I’m looking for an ltr – that I won the best prize there is. 
     
    That’s what the women here want to be – the long-term prize, not just someone for now. This must be an on-line only development I suppose.

  16. 76
    John

    Ok Evan, point well taken. While I am still somewhat skeptical, I will keep an open mind to it. You talk to a ton more women than I do , so it would be foolish for me to totally disregard what you say on this topic. Of course I know what works for me and so that will be my competing mindset. But you are a good debater that’s for sure.
     
    Karmic Equation @77
    John, sorry to have to say this, but it could be that they traded up.
    You didn’t need to state that. I am well aware of that fact.  That’s the reason why I said “they were waiting for a bigger and better deal to come along”. You usually only trade up when a bigger and better deal comes along.
     Selena @78
    What I’m curious about regarding the woman being proactive, co-courting stance is: do you men who do it apply it to the women YOU are very much into? Or does it go out the window if she is someone you are super attracted to?
    Fair question. But most of the women I date I am pretty attracted to anyway. So if someone totally blows me away with their looks its because they are probably out of my league. I will wait for her to be proactive. Don’t get me wrong, every time my phone rings or chimes I will hope its her, but I wont chase her like every other guy that dates her. I am self aware enough to know there are other guys in a higher league than me and they can battle it out for her. I would rather play nice and easy in the 7 sandbox than get all bloodied in the 9/10 sandbox.
     
     
     
     
     

  17. 77
    Selena

    Well Morris, thanks for answering my question. And illustrating what I have long suspected anyway: men will pursue a woman they are very interested in- who cares if she isn’t “proactive”. :)  However when faced with a choice between two or more women  he has only casual interest in…the proactive woman gets an edge. But it likely only temporarily. Cause the guy still hopes to find that woman who makes his heart beat faster. The one HE wants to win. The one HE chooses. :)
     
    Which is why Evan’s advice works for most women – those who want to be the lover, the partner, or the wife – rather than the temporary casual girlfriend. The guy who REALLY wants her is not going to care if she’s “proactive”; he just wants her to be receptive to him.

  18. 78
    Still-Looking

    If I wasn’t online, my dating would probably be much more in line with EMK’s advice and I would focus on one woman at a time and court her until she didn’t say yes to my requests for additional dates.
    The problem expressed by several men is the same problem I have – we have options.  We have numerous women we are conversing with and it is only natural that we are continually filtering women from the “yes, I’m going to pursue” category, to the “maybe” or “no” categories.
    EMK said, “Women don’t initiate for many, many, many reasons – you just ASSUME it’s because they’re not interested.”  This is true.  What is also true is that when I’m talking with numerous women, lining up dates, going on dates, etc., I’m only going to pursue women that clearly indicate that they are interested in me.  They can do this in a number of ways including initiating contact with me.  If a woman doesn’t express interest in me, I have X number of other women to continue to talk with and date.  I simply don’t have the time to try to determine why a particular woman is acting ambivalent.
     

  19. 79
    Rose

    Evan says/
    “FAR too many women have turned themselves into men – calling, texting, reaching out, making plans, only to discover that the men have felt a) emasculated, b) turned off that she’s doing his job, c) that she was weak and needy, and d) that she singlehandedly kept the relationship alive with an ambivalent man because she was calling him to set up concert plans. Yet the second she stopped calling, he dropped off the face of the planet.”
    Absolutely, I don’t want to do the mans job and be a man, It feels better to me to be a woman and allow the man the be a man.
     

  20. 80
    Julia

    @Still-looking 
     
    “What is also true is that when I’m talking with numerous women, lining up dates, going on dates, etc., I’m only going to pursue women that clearly indicate that they are interested in me.  They can do this in a number of ways including initiating contact with me.”
     
    Are you assuming the women you are taking out aren’t dating multiple men as well? I can assure you we are. If a guy does’t ask me out again I simply move one with the other several men I am dating/corresponding with. The women you date have the same situation as you but you still insist that women pursue men? Honey you aren’t going to get very far with a woman who has 4-5 guys asking her out, why would she even think to pursue you? Show me you’re the guy I want to be with by pursuing me like no man ever has. That makes you rise to the top.

  21. 81
    Julia

    @John 85 & Karmic #77
    re: trading up
     
    This seems to be a common theme in the manosphere, if a woman doesn’t go out with you again its because she’s “traded up” While I don’t doubt that this happens on occasion. My experience is that we are slightly more complex and not always looking for the best thing possible. I will give you an example. I went out with a guy last fall before I met my BF. We moved quickly through 2/2/2 and I was genuinely excited to meet him. Our first date was great, easy conversation, good attraction and he was super pumped about me. Second date was equally great but then we kissed at the end of the date, omg it was so awful, like making out with an uncle. But because we got along, he was still cute and still pumped about me I went out with him a 3rd time in hopes the kiss was a fluke. It wasn’t. I almost cried after he left my apartment. I didn’t have anyone else I was dating, still messaging some guys but there was no direct competition. He just wasn’t for me and I couldn’t force it. Sometimes you are just not the right person. Stop taking its so personally and get out there are find the woman who eagerly says “YES!” whenever you ask her.

  22. 82
    Rose

    GreatGal Because no grown up masculine man wants a woman to take the initiative and lead. Their ego may like it for a while but after a whileIt makes men like that feel like the girl. Or a boy and you like a mummy.

    If you are happy doing what you do and it is bringing you the love, romance and relationship you want then keep doing what you do. It’s working. If it isn’t then do something different. Only you know if it has worked. And it has brought you what you want.

  23. 83
    Still-Looking

    Julia @ 89
    “Are you assuming the women you are taking out aren’t dating multiple men as well?”
    — I not only assume the women are dating other men, I prefer it.  
    “The women you date have the same situation as you but you still insist that women pursue men?”
    — I do not insist that women pursue men.  Women just need to clearly express their interest:  timely response to texts; making time to talk; enthusiasm when communicating; suggesting another date/time if she is unavailable for a date, etc.
    “Honey you aren’t going to get very far with a woman who has 4-5 guys asking her out, why would she even think to pursue you? Show me you’re the guy I want to be with by pursuing me like no man ever has. That makes you rise to the top.”
    — Julia, if you capture my attention and let me know you are interested, I will pursue you.  The problem is if you don’t send the right signals, then I face a dilemma — as EMK said, “If a woman likes you, you can call her the next day and it will be the best thing you ever did. If she DOESN’T like you, your next day call will make you look like a needy stalker.”

  24. 84
    Sparkling Emerald

    THANK YOU, THANK YOU,  Evan  and everyone for your feedback. (I am S.E. the original poster) BTW, Ask Men, (or ask boys) is but ONE other source of so called advice i have seen .  I have read LOTS, but EMK’s blog has the highest percentage of advice that resonates with me.
    There are so many posts that I would like to respond to individually, but that could take 2 days and considerable bandwidth. I did enjoy all the comments, the nay sayers as well as the yay sayers.
    So here are my general thoughts.  It may seem that I am in “competition” with more pro-active and/or aggressive women.  I  remember, in my younger, dumber dating days, being pro-active and/or aggressive, and no good ever came from it. It is true that in the 8 months since I started dating, that I am not in a LTR yet, but I am very hopeful that I will be, it’s just a matter of finding the right match.  8 months really isn’t that long, and until recently, I worked 2 jobs, and had very little time to devote to dating, so I feel like in “real time” it has been about 5 months of dating. 
    I have observed pro-active/aggressive women IRL, what I see isn’t pretty (and it’s painful to watch, b/c it reminds me of my younger days, before I knew better) So if I am warm and receptive and open to a man, and he decides to go with the pro-active gal who asks him out, plans the dates, etc. so be it.  Perhaps in my other incarnation as a dater, it wasn’t my pursuit , that was my downfall, but the fact that whenever I pursued a man, I felt desperate, needy, undesired and unfeminine, and that had to have come across in my attitude.  The men who I pursued also expected easy sex because I pursued.  Their attitude was basically, if I wasn’t going to put out, why did I chase them to begin with.
    However, I HATE the other extreme of “The Rules”.  The Rules isn’t about being receptive, it’s about being deceptive.  They advocate not seeing a man more than twice a week, until you are MARRIED !  They advocate “training” a man to ask you out by Wednesday for a Saturday night date.  What the heck is wrong with accepting a Saturday night date on a Friday night ?  (Especially if you met the man on Thursday)
    I like Evan’s advice (and coincidently  it is  what I started doing after my first marriage ended, and it led to my second marriage  -which also ended :( )  Be RECEPTIVE, but don’t CHASE.  Yes, my 2nd husband pursued me, (as did my first) however, I missed a few red flags, and should have taken a closer look at who was chasing me, (but he was so darn cute, and that darn oxytocin made me do it :) )
    Here is how I respond to a man I am interested in.  If I am available when he calls, I ANSWER IT ! (If not, I return the call promptly)  If his name appears on my caller ID, I ENTHUSIASTICALLY say “Hi So and So”.  I let my voice bubble with enthusiasm when I talk to him.  I laugh at his jokes, if he told me last time we talked/or saw each other about his plans for the week, I’ll ask “How was your golf game, how was your job interview, how is the re-modeling project on your house going ?”  When he asks me out, I say something like “That sound FUN !”  or “I’ve always wanted to try that restaurant” or “What a GREAT idea !”. 
    On a date.  I dress to kill.  I wear the very best outfit that is appropriate for the activity.  The whole nine yards, hair, make-up (but not heavy and fake looking) accessories.  Killer high heels (if it’s not a hike or bike ride :)  ) Once again, laugh at his quips and jokes, tell him what fun this activity is,  tell him what a great idea it was to do whatever. Eye contact, smile, be attentive.  I leave my dietary concerns at home.  Yes, I am health conscience, and live on smoothies, salads and soup at home, and work hard to maintain my weight, but if he steps up and plans the date, and it’s going to  Fat Alberts rib shack, I’m not going to be a wet blanket and say,  “But that sounds fattening, and I like to eat healthy, blah, blah, blah”.  I’ll go online before hand to see if they have a menu online, and see what the healthiest, slimmest thing is on the menu, so I know ahead of time what to order.  And if everything is high calorie, well, I’ll just eat very light that day, and work out an extra 15 minutes the next day.  What’s the point of maintaining my figure, if I never let a date take me anywhere but Sweet Tomatoes ?
     
       When he leans in for that kiss, if I’m still interested, my well glossed lips are ready for it !  If he holds my hand, I hold his hand.  (No limp fish hand from me)  If he puts his arm around me, I lean in, if we are in a coffee shop on the couch, and he cuddles me, I cuddle back.  (I love PDA’s as long as they don’t turn into the foreplay variety)  At the end of the date, I thank him, and tell him what fun I had.  If he says he would like to see me again, I say YES.  Even if it’s the next day.  (none of this crap of pretending to be too busy, and artificially spacing our dates a week apart)  If I am TRULY unavailable, I say, I would LOVE do whatever, but tomorrow’s not good for me, but I am open during the week, and next weekend. (or whenever)  
       So if my smiling, sweet smelling, eye-contact, cute as a button outfitted, kissy, cuddly,  laughing, receptive self, doesn’t convince him that I’m  interested, then he’s not the guy for me. Or if my enthusiasm and receptivity is interpreted as being needy, then he’s not the guy for me.  If he KNOWS I’m interested, but he wants to “frustrate” me to”raise my interest level” even higher, he’s not the guy for me, if he just wants a no effort booty call, then he’s not the guy for me.
      I used to think I was in competition with the aggressive, pro-active, fling their naked bodies at a guy, gals (OK, a tad exaggeration on the naked flinging part) but now I see it differently.  THEY are in competition with ME, a woman who has no qualms about waiting for a man to CHOOSE me.  And so what if he is dating 5 other girls who pursued him ?  I would rather be that one in a million (OK 1 in 5) gal that HE CHOSE, over all the rest, than  to be the one he let into his life (and bed) because I did the chasing.
     
     
     

  25. 85
    Clare

    Sparkling Emerald 93
     
    May I just say, I think you are AWESOME. I think this kind of wise, common sense, high self-esteem approach to dating is just wonderful.

  26. 86
    Clare

    @ John # 10
    As a gorgeous, intelligent, caring and feminine woman, I can tell you that I am not concerned with “losing out”. I do not question my worth to the extent that I am worried what I can possibly do to “land” this guy. I assume if he likes me he will ask me out and pursue me. I can assure you I have no interest in a relationship with a man who lacks the confidence and warmth to do this.

  27. 87
    Selena

    Sparkling Emerald….
     
    Brava! Great post. :)

  28. 88
    Selena

    @ Karmic re: #77
     
    I feel that some people are more attuned to the masculine/feminine energy dynamic than others. For those of us who tend not to pay much attention to it, it can be much more subltle.  I do think that when something feels off, and you can’t quite put your finger on why…it may be because the enegy balance has shifted in a way that makes one or both people psychologically uncomfortable. Worth exploring if it happens often.

  29. 89
    Dean

    Back to the original topic of dating advice blogs: There are some interesting ones. While Evan has women’s best interests at heart, there are others that have men’s interests at heart. Evan writes the playbook for the ladies and other authors write the playbook for men. Some you win and some you lose. But if guys didn’t brush up on their playbooks, men would lose all the time. I did until I learned from the male  playbook and said “Yes this is exactly what keeps happening to me”. So I changed my style and attitude and used some, not all, of their strategies. And I got much better results.
     
    I have the same looks, same personality, same income and yet my outcomes were much better. The only difference was using some PUA advice. So there is a market for it because anyone can improve their game at any age. I never heard of Doc Love, but the go to site I use most frequently has changed my game for the better. Of course women will read it and say “This is BS”. But I have seen firsthand that it is game changer that works for guys much to the dismay of women.
     
    One of the things centered around paying for dates and how ineffective it is for men. This is in stark contrast to Evans point of view who feels that paying for dates gives a guy the best chance of landing the girl. Probably because he had success with it and heard of women saying that’s how they preferred it . Fair enough.
    But the author went on to list his theory why he had as much success as Evan by doing the exact  opposite. When I read it, I nodded my head in agreement. Then when I did an analysis when looking back, this PUA author  was 100% correct in how it applied to my experience. Here was the drill he outlined:. I added up all the money I spent on dates that I did not get sex or a relationship from. It was a lot.  Then I added up all the money I spent on dates that got me a relationship or sex. It wasn’t a lot of money. 
     
    The differential was staggering. Then to be really crass, you use those figures to come up with a figure of sex or relationship per dollar spent. All of the women hooted and howled that it was BS in the comments section. But the numbers didn’t lie. What happened to the author was what was happening to me. I forwarded it to one of my friends who got the same results I did. Very little return on investment when he shelled out, and a high rate of return when he didn’t. The moral is that a girl will screw your brains out or be your girlfriend if she is into you regardless how much you spend . The spending meant zilch as to how the girl perceived you.  So I significantly curtailed the spending. And I still got sex and relationships. The only difference was that I spent a quarter of the amount. And all of the girls were on par with each other. Its not like the ones I spent less on were ugly or desperate.
     
    Its those kind of results that make PUA sites proliferate. Of course there are other PUA sites that are garbage, but this one guy nailed it exactly and so I go to him the same way women flock to Evan. That PUA author upped my game the same way Evan ups women’s game. Many guys on Evans site cry foul (see all the comments here) with the tactics he espouses the same way women cry foul in the comments section on that one particular PUA site.
     
    Evan’s way works. Some PUA sites work. Its up to each individual to try both ways and see which one better suits him. For me, I will always go with the way I outlined. Because the numbers don’t lie and it isn’t anecdotal based. In dating, like anything, there are many ways to skin a cat. Just like there are multiple pathways to get in physical shape, there are multiple pathways to find love/sex. That’s my theory on why there are multiple dating sites. Somehow  this topic got off topic. Thanks Evan for bringing up the topic of dating advice since you know much of it flies in contrast to you. You are fair and balanced for even offering to open that can of worms.
     
     

  30. 90
    LC

    Every single time I’ve reciprocated a guy’s interest in me by calling him first, asking him out to a hockey game, asking him to go anywhere with me after he’s initiated the first couple of dates has ended up in me getting dumped.  These guys can say how they want a girl who’s interested, proactive, and reciprocal all they want, but their actions show me that they are easily bored by women who are actually interested.  Don’t fall for it ladies–they’re just playing the game.

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