I’m Dating A Passive Beta Male. Is His Behavior Normal?

I’m Dating A Passive Beta Male. Is His Behavior Normal?

Hi Evan,

I love your blog and Why He Disappeared. It can be a tough pill to swallow at times, but I appreciate your no-nonsense advice. I’ve had to learn the hard way, that my “go-getter” attitude does not translate well in the dating world. Not doing anything in the beginning stages of dating tends to drive me crazy.

I’ve been dating a beta-male for about a month and a half. He’s a total sweetheart and for the first time in a long time, I feel very safe. He’s kind, attentive and affectionate- when we’re together. He communicates with me daily, mostly through text message, to which I always respond warmly.

Here’s where I’m struggling: I find myself wanting to take over and take control with him sometimes (planning things mostly). I am resisting this urge as I’m trying out your mirroring concept.

My question: We’re texting everyday, but he’ll wait FOREVER, (in actuality, 5-7 days) before asking to see me again. What gives? Is this a downside of dating a typical beta (i.e., no initiative) or is he just not that interested in me? Do I continue to utilize patience or should I move on?

Thanks, Evan!
-Michelle 

Dear Michelle,

Thanks for reading “Why He Disappeared – The Smart, Strong, Successful Woman’s Guide to Understanding Men and Keeping the Right One Hooked Forever”. Glad it turned on a few light bulbs in helping you realize how a few of your behaviors have been ineffective in forging a relationship with a man.

But I have to say that if I had to write the whole thing again, I would have taken a few pages to put in a caveat:

This advice doesn’t work for every single woman in every single situation with every single guy. Basically, WHD was written for alpha females who want to date alpha males. It was a way to open your eyes about how the men you’re the MOST attracted to don’t necessarily want to date you in return.

While you’ve adjusted your take-charge attitude, you haven’t adjusted for the fact that you’re NOT dating a take-charge guy.

And in the absence of giving yourself an entire personality-ectomy, the smartest thing you can do is a) be aware of some of your tendencies to dominate and b) find a partner who is cool with them.

You, apparently, have done both of those things, Michelle.  But while you’ve adjusted your take-charge attitude, you haven’t adjusted for the fact that you’re NOT dating a take-charge guy.

Take charge guys are the ones who will always follow up quickly, make plans, make the first move, and claim you as their girlfriends.

Beta guys are the ones who have more kindness than confidence. They’re not nearly as assertive. They’re so passive as to be, well, almost feminine in nature. They are not going to put themselves on the line for rejection until it’s 100% clear that you like them. They would sooner wait to get a written notice in the mail that you’re really, truly interested in them than to follow up too much and potentially make you uncomfortable.

Is any of this hitting home, my friend?

So you’re not wrong to curb a little bit of that domineering side. Where you’ve gone astray is that when you’re with a beta male, you’re ALLOWED to be more alpha. “Doing nothing” as I describe in WHD works with take-charge guys because those guys don’t need you to take charge. Your new guy DOES.

The good news is that, if he’s a true beta, he’ll be THRILLED that you’re taking control.

So instead of extrapolating my advice to apply to every man, make an adjustment based on the man you’re actually dating. The good news is that, if he’s a true beta, he’ll be THRILLED that you’re taking control.

When you’re done reading this, give him a call to find out if he’s around this weekend. You’d like to cook him dinner. I suspect that’s all you’ll need to seduce him into becoming your boyfriend. And if, in fact, he’s just not that into you, you’ll figure that out quickly, too.

For all of the women who are reading this who would not be able to tolerate such behavior from your guy and prefer a take-charge man, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of “Why He Disappeared”. You’ll be very glad you did.

19
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Comments:

  1. 31
    JoJOe

    I call this “Good House Keeping”
    This man is an Alpha in Beta’s clothing.  Sets her up, and keeps her wondering.
    So mm.. an Alpha and a Player.  She thinks she has all the power of Olympus he stacked the cards in her favor.  She thinks he’s as sweet as the pie she made him. 
    She originally feels in control until she feels totally out of control.  She’s now under his thumb because he’s sent her mixed messages.  He’s aware of it, she thinks he is not aware because she thinks he’s “just” a Beta.  Oh, he’ll be back alright, but this time she’ll be opening the door to his Alpha and his Omega. Tables will turn and if she’s not on her best behavior for him, he’ll manipulate her into being that. Why?
    Because he can leave.  Anyone on the planet with 1/2 a deck knows all about wanting what we can’t have.  Anyone exercising that knowledge for power and control is a player, abuser, the list goes on in all the wrong directions.
    She can stop this by doing a few things.
    1) What the hell on gods good earth is he doing in her house?
    My place and address are totally off limits to you until you’ve proven your trust and a healthy character.
    2) She’s let down her guard.  Allowing in all his fancy niceties, means nothing.  Acting 101 can do that.  Let her see him with people, friends, public in a crowd.
    What the hell has happened to “courting” it doesn’t happen in a box with a fox. Well that is were you’ll find them.  Those foxes.  Get the hell out and into a crowd.  Observance is crucial to figuring out an others character.  Lets see how he deals with my brothers or the waitress or his buddies or my buddies. Getting you alone, on your turf, true nonsense and dangerous.  
    4) She waits…… for what?  for her abandonment issue to be soothed through the very guy that is causing them.  Time waits for no one and it’s the only thing in life besides our own skins that we actually in the REAL world have a DATE with.  
    Let him NOT call her all he wants. Her time limit has expired, obviously and with good reason, she hears her instincts but negates them.  
    5) Have a good life, a busy happy one.  Where you won’t feel tempted to prove your worth or busy yourself in others’ affairs.  
    If he calls she should say “Oh, hello, how have you been, so many wonderful things happening this week”  
    Not as a ploy, a cover, a curt, but because SO MANY WONDERFUL THINGS ARE HAPPENING
     

    1. 31.1
      Elle

      YES!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree with you a 100%.

  2. 32
    Goldie

    @ Frimmel
     
    I cannot speak to the majority of your post, because I don’t believe there’s a war on men, just like I don’t believe there’s a war on Christmas. This, however
     
    “Look at the derision in which the “Game” guys/PUA are typically held for what at  reducto ad absurdum amounts to “stop putting women on a pedestal.”
     
    Um, no, that’s not what it amounts to. It amounts to using people for one’s own short-term means. People, not necessarily women. If I knew any gay PUA, I’d hold them in derision too.
     

  3. 33
    Kiki

    @Frimmel 27
    A woman might have gotten HIS place at the prestigious school?
    You will not be making many friends around here.
     
     

  4. 34
    Kiki

    @Karl R 31,
    Probably I really do not understand all; it becomes really complicated at some point:I am watching you watching me watching you… Ahhhhhh. With my own husband, for a while I thought he was fully aware that I am madly in love with me, but was playing games to torture me.
    But let me ask you then – how/when do you/did you decide that you want to move the relationship to the next level (whatever it is)? Do men need to be given hints, do you need to be given signs? It boils back to the question that Josavant asked – how do you tell whether the man is passive because he does not like you or he is passive because he is passive?
     

  5. 35
    Marie

    I think whether a guy is alpha or beta you need to pay attention to whether the quality of the relationship is progressing or are you two stagnating emotionally without any deepening of feelings.  Maybe you are going out once a week for months because that’s just the level of comfort he has.  If you find that this continues for several months and you are not growing closer then this is bad.  Even a beta male will find some way to deepen the relationship.  Maybe his style just is not a good match for you. Men who like you generally try to find some way to be closer to you, even beta males.
     
    @Frimmel – what do you mean women who take men’s jobs and prestigious spots in school?  Last I checked these spots did not belong to men.  The fact that a previously male dominated culture blocked women from these spots until WWII is a bad mark on our history not something to be lauded.  I walk through the halls of my alma mater.  The stories of how difficult it is for women to become professors as recently as 10 years ago despite having the same qualifications is terrible.  Even today there is significant gender bias.  It’s not even about equal pay.  We are still trying to get equal opportunity.

  6. 36
    Frimmel

    Kiki in #34
     
    How about we amend my comment to “beaten him for a place at a prestigious school.” You are quite correct it was not “his” place. However the broader point stands and in fact is better made with your correction. She is his better, she has quite literally bested him, yet she is confused that he is not taking the role of superior/in charge/dominance.

  7. 37
    judy

    For me, a passive male is ok as long as you know he’s passive – but you have to do all the work.  Personally, I’d ask if he was interested or not, and if he has other girlfriends.  Done, and the guy ran a mile, so onto the next.  (And yes, he does have other girlfriends who sit by and wait sweetly until he rings – which he does, when he wants to).
    I cannot imagine a relationship where I have to do all the organising – maybe after a few dates, this could be discussed.
    But it sounds to me more like a date from pure hell.

  8. 38
    Julia

    Frimmel #37
     
    She is his better, she has quite literally bested him, yet she is confused that he is not taking the role of superior/in charge/dominance.
     
    Are you suggesting that all women have bested all men? I think that’s a strange way to view the world. I can be an Alpha female at work because I have to be, or else no one would ever listen to me. However, in my dating life and hopefully in my family life, I want to be much more feminine. Are you advocating a complete gender reversal, that women are aggressors and men lean back?

  9. 39
    Scott

    Tips from a beta male on how to detect us.  If you ask the male to take charge, and he suggests the next activity, and you object: note the reaction.  The alpha male may argue for his original suggestion, or he may graciously engage in a conversation about a substitute.  A beta male will feel shame at having been “wrong” about what to propose.  And will likely agree swiftly to whatever substitute you suggest.  Which points out the downside of a beta male.  We lie.  We want you to tell us what you like so we can say “yes, that sounds great”.  We aren’t going to tell you what we really like until waaaayyyyy later when we are much more confident that you will stay with us despite our expressing disagreement.
    So when you are thinking about pushing a beta male to take responsibility for more of the planning and initiation stages, be careful what you wish for.  He isn’t going to take kindly to you objecting to his choices.  After all, you MADE him take the initiative.  If he suggests something and you say no, that was exactly the rejection he was seeking to avoid by not initiating in the first place!
    Not suggesting that any female should want to be with a beta male.  But if you choose to go this route, realize you are going to get both sides of the package.  He is more likely to acquiesce to your requests.  He is less likely to initiate.

  10. 40
    Y

    I feel like people are evaluating wording more than content here.  If Frimmel wanted to say all women have bested all men, he would have come out and said that.
     
    I believe what he is trying to say via examples is that the traditional roles of men and women have become more skewed over the years.  However, the traditional expectations that are placed on men (even women, Frimmel) have not deviated to the same degree.
    Women are now more educated, more sexually aggressive, more headstrong.  We may not have total equality, but we’ve come a long way since the 1920’s.  We’re out wearing pants and sneakers and not wearing all this makeup and being ultra-feminine like we were once expected to be.  The expectation has diminished to an extent. It’s no longer severely frowned upon if a woman holds a job instead of being a housewife…if she gets married in her 30’s or 40’s…if she can’t cook.  Almost all women I know in their 20’s can’t cook to save themselves from starving.  Generally, this is not surprising to any of us.  But a MAN cooking…well…that’s amazing!
    What is expected of us has changed…and as a result, our personalities and world views have changed, too.  But when women take on roles traditionally delegated to men, some women still expect those men to be ultra-masculine, gun-toting, belligerant, and tough creatures. The roles have already changed, but the views and expectations are still changing.  It’s more socially acceptable to be a savvy businesswoman than to be a stay-at-home dad. But why?

  11. 41
    Julia

    I should preface this by saying I am both a feminist and someone wants a good egalitarian relationship.
     
    Y #41
    We’re out wearing pants and sneakers and not wearing all this makeup and being ultra-feminine like we were once expected to be.
     
    Uh, I don’t really wear pants or sneakers. I wear makeup and I’m pretty darn feminine, even if I work in a more male dominated field. 
     
    But when women take on roles traditionally delegated to men, some women still expect those men to be ultra-masculine, gun-toting, belligerant, and tough creatures.
     
    Good God, I don’t want that. That sounds terrible.
     

    It’s more socially acceptable to be a savvy businesswoman than to be a stay-at-home dad. But why?
     
    Well, I think the times are a changin’. I personally will never be able to support a man to stay at home, just as many men will not be able to support a wife. But there is some indication that young, highly successful women in high pressure careers, like doctors, are marrying creative, work at home type men who will take care of the kids. I see men pushing strollers around everyday, by themselves where I live so I will suspect this will become more common as time wears on.
     
    Now, I know we talked about the concept of men paying for dates ad nauseum on here but from my personal experience, every man I’ve dated has been nothing but 100% generous to me. So I think there are still plenty of men following a masculine role and plenty of women playing the feminine.

  12. 42
    Karl R

    Kiki asked: (#35)
    “But let me ask you then – how/when do you/did you decide that you want to move the relationship to the next level (whatever it is)?”
     
    The first step was easy. I just figured out what I wanted.
     
    The second part was much harder. I had to determine whether it was what the woman wanted, or whether I was sabotaging the relationship by acting too soon.
     
    Kiki asked: (#35)
    “Do men need to be given hints, do you need to be given signs?”
     
    What do you think of men who try to pursue a relationship (or a more serious relationship) when you’ve deliberately given them no indication that you’re interested in progressing further?
     
    Of course men need to be given some sort of hint or sign.
     
    And even when you’re giving signs, men aren’t always sure that your signals are clear. There is no universal system of hints or signals that all women use. If you’re under the impression that men are oblivious because they repeatedly miss the signals you send, it’s probably because we’ve gotten more encouraging signals from women who had no romantic interest in us.
     
    Kiki asked: (#35)
    “how do you tell whether the man is passive because he does not like you or he is passive because he is passive?”
     
    To a certain extent, you figure it out over time.
     
    When I asked my wife to marry me, she said yes. It was pretty clear that she liked me. Long before then, our conversations had given me a rather strong indication that she saw long-term potential in our relationship.
     
    But for the first few months, it was wait-and-see. I knew she found me attractive. I knew she enjoyed my company. I knew she liked the sex. But it also seemed like she was keeping her options open.
     
    That’s part of the process.
     
    S said: (#26)
    “I really hope there are more men out there in the middle.  But not much advice out there talks about that.”
     
    There are, but the middle isn’t the perfect place that you’re imagining. You’re not going to get a man who always takes charge when you want him to but graciously lets you take the lead when you want to. Instead, you’ll get a man who sometimes wants you to take the lead when you’d rather not, and who sometimes vetoes the plan you’ve already made because he doesn’t like it.
     
    There’s no shortage of men in the middle. It’s still a trade-off, however.

  13. 43
    marymary

    I just want a man who does exactly what I want without me losing respect for him.
    why is that so hard?
    :)

  14. 44
    handson

    I don’t like all these omegas betas etc classifications.. It seems like some computer game for psychology grads on here sometimes.
    My hunch is he doesn’t like going out much or doesn’t due to work or prefers familiarity of his routine so therefore isn’t necessarily full of ideas where to take you. This will take a little bit of time to encourage him to step out of his comfort zone. 
    Is he a problem solver? if so, give him a problem and let him do his thing. If he plans something (which might be unusual for him) and it doesn’t go to plan DO NOT say ‘oh I know a great place, let’s go’ and take over. Resist that urge even though you may know a great place. This will make you less happy as well. 
     
     
     
     
     

  15. 45
    Shaukat

    @Goldie 33
    “Um, no, that’s not what it amounts to. It amounts to using people for one’s own short-term means. People, not necessarily women. If I knew any gay PUA, I’d hold them in derision too.”
    There might be a small percentage of individuals within this community for whom the purpose of ‘the game’ is to simply use women/people for sex and then discard them. However, the vast majority of the PUA lit aims to teach awkward or shy guys how to overcome their social inhibitions and approach anxiety so that they can get better results when dating. The fact that guys who learn from PUAs don’t go on to form relationships with every woman they end up dating or sleeping with does not mean that they are “using people for one’s own short-term means,” unless you would also characterize every woman who allowed a man to pay for dinner/drinks on the first couple dates and then deciding not to pursue things further as a “user.”

  16. 46
    Chance

    Julia said (#39)

    “I can be an Alpha female at work because I have to be, or else no one would ever listen to me.”

     
    I’m sorry that you work in an environment like that.  Where I work, people prefer it when their co-workers are more collaborative, whether they are male or female.  However, I believe that your feelings are common among women in the workforce.  I’ve gotten the impression that a lot of my female co-workers feel that they need to be extra assertive in order for people (particularly men) to pay attention to them.  I wish they knew that the majority of men don’t care that they’re women, and that they are just trying to get through the daily grind just like their female counterparts.
     
     
    However, in my dating life and hopefully in my family life, I want to be much more feminine.
     
    I think that’s why so many men, young men in particular,  have become confused and frustrated.  They grew up seeing women as equals, so a lot of them have a hard time understanding why a lot of women expect men to pay for dates and make more money than they do.  I think that Y in #41 really hit the nail on the head in her comment.
     
     
    Are you advocating a complete gender reversal, that women are aggressors and men lean back?
     
    I certainly don’t want that.  I just want equality for men and women – in the workforce and in dating.
     
     
    Julia said (#42)
    “Now, I know we talked about the concept of men paying for dates ad nauseum on here but from my personal experience, every man I’ve dated has been nothing but 100% generous to me. So I think there are still plenty of men following a masculine role and plenty of women playing the feminine.”
     
    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the reason the majority of men you date are paying for dates is because they believe that it’s expected of them (mainly because it is).  It isn’t really out of generosity.  They know that if they don’t, they won’t last long with most women.  I say this because of the conversations that guys have with each other.  Most younger men hate, and I mean HATE, the fact that they are expected to always pay for dates.  However, the women they’re dating will almost never know that.  Most guys will make sure that they appear to be happy to always pick up the check.  Only a few of us are bold enough to walk away after a few dates where the woman has not offered to pay.

  17. 47
    Rose

    Paying equal on dates makes it feels like friends rather than a romantic date
    I want romance in my dating life. I want to feel like the woman not the man or buddies.
    So any man who prefers to treat me like a buddy and go dutch, is fine, it then feels best to recipriacte and put them in the friends  in the freinds category. Not a problem just turns me off romantically and I need to be turned on for romance.
     
    Y 41, because most women want to stay at home with their babies and children while they are young. And mix with other mums with babies and children. Most men don’t.
    We are more tuned into our young children it’s a primitive thing, what we are designed to do.
    And most men still earn more, so it makes economical sense.
    There a few stay at home Dads, but not many.
     

  18. 48
    Kiki

    @marymary 44
    You are kind of modest in your wishes too :-). I want a man who can read my thoughts, wants the same things as I want, and offers to do exactly what I want, out of his own free will. When I meet him, my current oblivious and obstinate husband who claims that men and women are just hardwired to want different things, will be be in real jeopardy :-).

  19. 49
    Clare

    I’ve always thought the most attractive people, both men and women, were those who had a mix of both masculine and feminine energy, alpha and beta qualities.  I also don’t like this typing of people into a particular label or category, such as “she’s aggressive” or “he’s a beta” as so many people are able to switch roles and change tack as the situation calls for it.
     
    For example, an attractive man for me would be someone who was content to do the pursuing in the beginning (the first few months to a year, say) but would be fine with it if I sometimes initiated communication, or occasionally invited him to things, or occasionally initiated sex.  As we become more comfortable with each other, and I become more confident, I would expect the energy to even out more. As long as things feel comfortable to both of us, I don’t see the need for these strict rules, I do find it a little bit restrictive and they don’t always work in every situation. I find a flow feels better.
     
    I used to be quite reserved and shy and would always let the guy do all of the initiating, and I do still wait for that in the beginning when dating someone, however I’ve become more confident with doing what feels right in the moment.  I feel similarly about the payment thing – initially it feels great for a guy to pay for the first few dates, and after a little while I see no reason why there can’t be more of a flow and things can be more equal.  I can definitely see a fluidity of the gender roles becoming more apparent.

  20. 50
    Kiki

    @Karl R 43.
    Very, very interesting, so thank you very much.
    Can we discuss some more the ambiguity of signs…
    You said:
    “What do you think of men who try to pursue a relationship (or a more serious relationship) when you’ve deliberately given them no indication that you’re interested in progressing further?”
    Actually, I (and I think most women) when they want a relationship to go no further will very clearly say NO. To my mind, lack of signs means yes (a silent consent) for the man to show his true colors and what level of effort he is ready to put in me/how hot he thinks I am.
    I personally would have no problem to go and tell a man I like him, if it was just that. But if I was in love… My God, I would be so shy and scared, because possible rejection from the one you are in love with is such a heartbreak.  I would be practically frozen, giving no signs, and losing my sleep tryin to figure out whether he likes me or not.
    By the way, what do you think about this alpha/beta classification and where would you fall on that scale?
     

  21. 51
    josavant

    Chance- though you bring up good points, the OP’s letter is probably not, at the bottom of it, about traditional gender roles, even if she talks about beta or alpha. It’s about whether this guy cares enough about her for a relationship to be worth the effort.
     
    Karl R wrote earlier that we can figure out whether a guy is into us by reversing roles and seeing how we would treat a guy if we are into them or not.  Though I am not alpha woman, if I liked a guy, I would make an effort to see him more than once a week- I would want to see him at least twice a week if not more. This OP’s guy only makes plans to get together every 5-7 days, which probably means he’s seeing her less than once a week. How into her can he be?
     
    This is not about beta. This is about a guy who doesn’t care much, and the OP can’t let him go because she implies she’s been with bad guys in the past, so now she has to hang on to whoever gives her the time of day nicely. She should cut her losses and move on to the next nice guy (alpha or beta) who cares for her.

  22. 52
    Frimmel

    Y in #41: Yes, that is more or less what I was getting at.
     
    Karl R in #43: re signs/hints/indications
     
    Pretty much agree in total with everything he said. For many guys not interested, shy, and hard to get look exactly the same.
     
    Mary in #44: re “Read my mind and to the right thing.” (which ties to hints and signs a bit)
     
    You know most guys get that. We’re just supposed to “know” what to do, when to do it, and know these things without being told. One of the differences between alphas and betas is what they can do about it.
     
    An alpha can be wrong because there are plenty of other girls who want to date him. He can afford many dates so if one doesn’t go so well… next.
     
    A beta has fewer options and can less afford dates that don’t go so well. He’s under more pressure to get it right so of course it goes wrong because he’s trying to hard when he’s just supposed to effortlessly get it exactly right.
     
    That part of what PUA are trying to teach. More approaches, more dates, more girls in rotation, dates that don’t cost. Get the pressure off to get this only date you’re gonna have for months right.
     
    One of the biggest boosts to a guy’s confidence is being sure the gal likes him. “Interest in me” is very attractive and can turn indifference around on a dime (it won’t overcome needing to go a lot easier on the pie and cookies though.)
     
    So guys get “read my mind and do the right thing.” We all hate it. Even the alphas who mostly know better how to “play” it. The guys who especially hate it are the ones who will be impressed with your brains and your schooling and your travel and your career. They’re the guys who took “equality” to heart.
     
    Equality to those guys means being accountable and fair and responsible a “read my mind and do the right thing” attitude is most decidedly not equal and not fair. It frees women to shift the goal posts and frees them from accountability. If you don’t say what you want it isn’t your fault when you don’t get it, is it? If that is allowed as a feminine prerogative how is that equal? (Yes, NAWALT.)
     
    Do women really not see the double standards and the lose/lose situations they so often put men (particularly men who believe in fairness and decency and being honorable and don’t want to dominate/control people) in?

  23. 53
    Goldie

    @ Shaukat 46
     
    This is news to me. I admit that I am not terribly familiar with PUA culture. So I looked it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_artist
     
    “A pickup artist is a man who trains in the skills and art of finding, attracting, and seducing women[citation needed]. Such a man purportedly abides by a certain system deemed effective by that community in his attempts to seduce women.
    The use of pickup in this context, slang for making a casual acquaintance with a stranger in anticipation of sexual relations, dates from at least World War II
    (…)
    Routines and gambits are developed to stimulate purported “attraction switches” often combined with techniques derived from an alleged form of hypnosis called neuro-linguistic programming.[  ”
     
    Sorry, still sounds like using people to me. Especially the last paragraph, which additionally sounds like manipulating people into doing things your way.

  24. 54
    Goldie

    @ Frimmel 52
     
    “We’re just supposed to “know” what to do, when to do it, and know these things without being told.”
     
    Guess what? So are we! :) It’s not a man vs woman thing. It’s an overall dating thing. It is part of the dating game. Why do you say it’s a woman’s prerogative? I’ve never had a guy present me with a list of things he wants on a first date, either. (Which is probably a good thing; it would’ve freaked me out.)
     
    I had this conversation with a male buddy of mine just the other day. His friend had apparently hit it off with a woman, they went on one date, and then, out of the blue, she pulled back and doesn’t even say hi to him now when she runs into him in public. My friend’s takeaway from it was, “Women are weird, you guys don’t know what you want, you never tell us what you what or what we did wrong”… I told him that, in most cases, the woman knows exactly what happened, but believes it would be easier on the man if she says nothing, than if she gives him a detailed explanation. Same goes for men doesn’t it? Isn’t it easier on all sides, after a bad first date, for a man to text the woman “i had fun” and disappear, than for him to tell her “there will be no second date because you’re a sloppy drunk” or “your breath stinks” or “you’ve got to lay off that pie” etc?
     
    And here’s something else. If things didn’t work out after one date, or a few dates, no matter what reason the other side gives or whether they do not give any reason at all, that’s pretty much a hundred percent guarantee that they would not have worked out long term. So why drag it out and waste both people’s time? She or he is doing you a favor by disappearing.
     
    PS. I do agree with the commenters that say that the concepts of alpha and beta are overrated. That said, some people are in fact less assertive than the others. But that’s probably more due to their lack of experience than to their order in a pack or whatever.
     

  25. 55
    marymary

    Goldie @ 53
    And it doesn’t even work.

  26. 56
    Rashawn

    Wow, most women (including myself) who is a typical Type A would find it maddening to be with a beta man. I find that if I have to drive every area of my life including my relationship/marriage I don’t want any parts of it. 
    I need the Alpha man to stand up and meet me to create my happily ever after. 

  27. 57
    marymary

    Rashawn
    True, but unfortunately many alpha men are not looking for Type As.  They have enough of that at work.

  28. 58
    David T

    @Kiki50
     
    “Actually, I (and I think most women) when they want a relationship to go no further will very clearly say NO. To my mind, lack of signs means yes (a silent consent) for the man to show his true colors and what level of effort he is ready to put in me/how hot he thinks I am.”
     
    I think you are projecting how you are onto other women. In my experience with the ones who lost interest in me before I did in them, very few have been direct about it, maybe one in four or five.  The usual scenario I have encountered is a sudden change in responsiveness,  perhaps hoping that the guy will just figure it out and go away after a while. It is very annoying because I am spending time and energy interacting with a wall just in case she is simply too busy because something has come up.

    Of the few that have been direct, I am can still be friends with and am in some cases. With the others I close it out with how she seems to have lost interest, that is OK, good luck and encourage her to be more direct. Costs me nothing because  I have written her off and gives her an opening if I am wrong and the problem is a bunch of stuff came up in her life all at once.

    Passive-aggressively “testing” a man’s interest is not a winning strategy.  It is insecure and likely to send an unintended signal to any guy who has had a few brushes with the indirect women. It certainly would not have worked well with your husband, eh Kiki?

  29. 59
    Karl R

    Regarding ambiguity of signs:
    Kiki said: (#50)
    “Actually, I (and I think most women) when they want a relationship to go no further will very clearly say NO.”
     
    Really?
     
    Yesterday, I overheard the following conversation between two female coworkers:
    “I hope he doesn’t think I like him.”
    The male coworker (who was being discussed) was not party to this conversation.
     
    Most women quietly hope that relationship will go no further, so they can avoid any potentially uncomfortable confrontations. They start to withdraw and hope the man gets the hint. A few (discourteous) women will pull a vanishing act. They only say “NO” when it becomes obvious that it’s necessary.
     
    Kiki said: (#50)
    “To my mind, lack of signs means yes (a silent consent) for the man to show his true colors and what level of effort he is ready to put in me/how hot he thinks I am.”
     
    If that’s the case, 95% of the women in the world are interested in me, have given their silent consent, and are just waiting for me to show my true colors and the level of effort I’m ready to put into a relationship with them.
     
    And those same women are equally interested in most of the rest of the men in the world.
     
    Ask your husband what he thinks about this “silent consent” concept.
     
    Kiki said: (#50)
    “But if I was in love… My God, I would be so shy and scared, because possible rejection from the one you are in love with is such a heartbreak.  I would be practically frozen, giving no signs, and losing my sleep tryin to figure out whether he likes me or not.”
     
    It’s no surprise that your husband had no clue that you were madly in love with him. (#35)
     
    You’re not alone in the way you would feel. Over half the population (men and women) describe themselves as chronically shy. So over half the men are shy, scared, practically frozen, losing sleep trying to figure out whether the woman likes them, and trying to avoid the possible rejection from the object of their infatuation.
     
    It should be easy for you put yourself in the shoes of those men.
     
    So you’re scared and practically frozen. The man has given no sign that he’s interested. Are you going to conclude that he has given his silent consent and make the first move?
     
    Of course you won’t. Neither will the men.
     
    josavant said: (#51)
    “Karl R wrote earlier that we can figure out whether a guy is into us by reversing roles and seeing how we would treat a guy if we are into them or not.  Though I am not alpha woman, if I liked a guy, I would make an effort to see him more than once a week- I would want to see him at least twice a week if not more.”
     
    You overlooked one possibility. A shy man might want to see a woman more often, but still be terrified of the possible rejection if he tries to move things forward.
     
    In most of my relationships, I started off seeing the woman once a week. In many, I escalated to seeing her more frequently. The desire to escalate to seeing her more frequently occurred before I tried to make it happen … sometimes weeks before.
     
    Rose said: (#48)
    “Paying equal on dates makes it feels like friends rather than a romantic date” [...]
    “Not a problem just turns me off romantically and I need to be turned on for romance.”
     
    So you’re in favor of maintaining social inequalities which favor you.
     
    Men don’t pay for dates because it’s fair. We don’t pay because it’s romantic. We don’t pay because it’s chivalrous. We don’t pay because it’s right. We don’t pay because we’re generous.
     
    We pay for dates because it’s an effective dating strategy. We are interested enough in succeeded that we’ll overlook that it’s inherently unequal.
     
    Kiki asked: (#50)
    “what do you think about this alpha/beta classification”
     
    It can be a useful analogy, but it’s not completely accurate.
     
    Kiki said: (#50)
    “where would you fall on that scale?”
     
    When it comes to dating, I definitely started out as a “beta” … shy, under-confident, afraid of rejection. Over time I learned enough alpha behaviors (or learned how to fake them convincingly) to come across more like an “alpha”.
     
    marymary, (#56)
    PUA tactics work better than a shy guy’s natural inclinations. If you get past the jargon, some of their tactics are just common sense.

  30. 60
    Frimmel

    #57/#58:
     
    Are you really a Type A if you want to cede control to others at any point for any reason?
     
    Is your Type A’ness ingrained or something you think you’re supposed to do?
     
    When you think you are ceding control are you really out of control or just exercising control over something else being in control a different way? “Beat Me” is an order for instance.
     
     
     
     

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