(Video) 4 Men Break Negative Stereotypes About Fathers

I met Ramona Wright at a party 8 years ago and was immediately impressed – not just with her beauty, but with her fierce intelligence and curiosity. She’s a Facebook friend who is engaged with social causes, particularly for African-Americans. If that doesn’t sound like it’s up your alley, please don’t click away. This is worth your time.

The above video is an interview with 4 men who publicly wrestle with negative male stereotypes – how all men struggle to be all things for women: protectors, providers, fathers and husbands. Every time I hear a broadly negative stereotype of men in the comments below, I think of men like this. You should, too.

Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Chance

    The silence is deafening, isn’t it?

    1. 1.1
      Henriette

      @Chance:  I’ve been silent bc I’m not sure I have anything to add (and bc Busy Life).  I know some fathers who try to be very involved but who are more or less treated like an ATM and occasional babysitter by mom.  I am also well-acquainted with some mothers who work hard in and out of the home while dad hasn’t so much as looked for a job in years and does little to help with housework or childcare.  I’d imagine you, too, know people in both categories.

      The parental dynamics I see “close up & personal” seem determined less by gender than by the character of adults involved.  I guess this video might be enlightening for people who imagine that all fathers/men are emotionally distant and poor cooks.

       

      1. 1.1.1
        Chance

        Fair points, Henriette.  I agree with what you’re saying, but your point in the last couple of sentences isn’t related to what I am getting at.  On a societal level, generally speaking, fathers are treated like ATMs.  In fact, it’s even baked into law.  One needs to go no further than the comments on Evan’s post about whether men should be forced to pay for a child they didn’t want to see this in action.  If one were to couple the general view of the female commenters there with what is dictated by law, the only conclusion that one can come to is that only a father’s money is critical.  Anything else that a father brings to the table is just icing on the cake, apparently.

        1. Henriette

          Thanks, @Chance, I appreciate your response.  I agree that the courts tend to treat dads shamefully when it comes to child support and custody.  I would absolutely back any organization that worked to update fathers’ rights and bring them in line with current realities.  I’m saddened that “the mens’ rights” movement, which started in great part to tackle this kind of egregious inequality, seems to have devolved into “MRAs” who appear to do little more than spew bile about entitled western women and advise each other how to most efficiently get no-strings sex from these same women.

          As an aside, a dear friend of mine and his fiancee accidentally got pregnant just as they were in the throes of breaking up.  He did not want the child but she claimed to be too devout for abortion so now he’s a father. (His pals all wonder if this ex-fiancee would have been so devout if he were much poorer ~ instead of far wealthier ~ than she!)  Even without the law forcing him to pay, my friend ~ and many other honourable men like him ~ would feel it their absolute duty to financially support any child they helped create.

      2. 1.1.2
        Adrian

        Henriette give me a moment; I’ve keep trying to click the thumbs up button for your comment but it’s not working (^_^)

    2. 1.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      Please elaborate, Chance.  What are you implying?

      1. 1.3.1
        Chance

        Evan seemed to get it.

        1. Adrian

          Chance I think Evan is agree with Henriette not you.

          As KK said a few weeks ago, most women on here seem to try to see both genders side of issues, but on certain topics you don’t try to see both sides as Henriette just did.

        2. Chance

          Adrian, perhaps you’re only seeing what you want to see?  I had just agreed with Henriette’s post (before you commented), so actually, I am seeing both sides here.  Also, I don’t know what’s in Evan’s mind, but he replied to my comment, not Henriette’s.  It very well could have been by accident, however.  Finally, I don’t think you are as unbiased as you like to think of yourself, or at least, as unbiased as you try to present yourself to be.

        3. ScottH

          Evan is agreeing that the silence is deafening, if you go by the numbering structure.  His is the 2nd response to comment number 1 which states that the silence is deafening.

        4. KK

          Before you comment, Adrian, make sure you run it by Chance first so he can tell you what you really think.

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          Many of Evan’s podcast posts aren’t commented on the day they drop.  Nor do many of them generate a high volume of comments.  And this post is a video which, like the podcasts, requires that the listener/viewer be able to be in a setting, and have enough time blocked out to listen/view it.  And like all of Evan’s posts, they appear on the site right at the time of day when people are at school, work, or getting the business of life done, which means that finding that block of time to listen or view it will have to wait until later in the day.

          In comparison, one of Evan’s posts about a linked article, book review, or a reader’s question, can be conveniently read and commented on during a quick coffee break at work, or while waiting in the car pick up line at school for the kids.

          So I don’t see why the “silence is deafening” when comments didn’t appear shortly after the video was posted.  You didn’t find it troubling when the Allana Pratt interview (which was fabulous BTW) went uncomment on for a few days.

          And since you are sensing “deafening silence” what types of comments were you expecting to immediately appear?  Who’s voice did you expect to hear that was missing?  And why when you looked at the empty comments section did you assume something negative about the people you wanted to see comments from?  Why not give them the benefit of the doubt?

  2. 2
    Theodora

    I don’t understand why men are expected to be “protectors and providers” in pro-feminist countries which take pride in their egalitarian relationships/marriages. I mean, here in my small country in Eastern Europe, men are expected to be “protectors and providers”, but women are responsible with cooking, cleaning, staying slim and atractive, changing diapers and compromising. I mean, what do women bring to the table in exchange of protection and provisioning? Just their presence?

    1. 2.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Is it that women want men to be providers and protectors?  Or do men want to be viewed as providers and protectors?  Or is it both?

      In the U.S. According to the BLS, 32% of married women bring in more money than their husbands.  More women than men now earn 4 year college degrees and there are more women in law school than men.  Maybe this is because young women expect to be financially responsible for their families?

      “What do women bring to the table?”  Let’s start with earning power.  Do men want that in a mate?  According to many men it’s not a priority for them when they’re looking for a wife.  But I’m sure they don’t mind the real financial benefits they get from their wives’ jobs.

      Then you can add in cooking, cleaning, child bearing and rearing.  And yes, even their  presence, if by that you mean their love, affection, emotional support, and companionship.

      1. 2.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi GoWithTheFlow,

        I actually just had this conversation with a older guy the other day (I wish you could have talked to him instead of me, you would have known what to say). I always ask myself what do I bring to the table? Why would a woman choose me?

        Of course the other guy only asked what did the woman bring to the table, because he does not want children, he cooks, she does not. He cleans she does not (he is neater), and he makes much much more. He is very funny and outgoing, while she is shy; so he has a great social life and is sought after by many people to hang with him.

        His conclusion is that sex is the only thing a woman can bring to the table for him. He has close friends and family he can confide in, so the only thing a woman can bring him that he doesn’t have is sex.

        …   …   …

        Anyway,

        Here is my weekly question for you? (^_^)

        I know of many men who only date women that make less than them, or who are less attractive than they are, or maybe she is overweight compared to him, or they date women who are much younger because they like the control they have over dating someone on a lessor financial, physical, emotional, or social level than they are.

        “What is the female version of this?”

        I rarely if ever see women dating someone who is younger, or makes less, or whom they are not physically attracted to just for the purpose of control.

        But knowing humans, if men do it, women do it. So my guess is that because I am a guy and mainly hang with guys, I only can see the negative male side of it, and I am blind to the negative female versions of things.

        1. KK

          Hi Adrian,

          I’m sure GWTF will respond, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents 🤗.

          Women are so fundamentally different than men, it’s almost impossible to compare. For example, I have never known any woman who has been deceptive with their intentions for sex. Most women date to find love, resulting in marriage. And the ones who don’t are upfront about just wanting a fling and the man involved is usually thrilled. On the other hand, some men (like your older friend) decide women are only good for sex. But instead of letting his current conquest know how he feels, he’s deceptive about his intentions. Do you have any female friends that talk about how hot a guy is and how if she just puts in a few good dates, she can score? LOL. I’m betting no.

          On your other observation, I honestly can’t say I’ve observed the same things. Yes, I see older men with younger women or less successful woman, but most of the time the woman is more attractive. I rarely see super attractive men with homely women. The age / money factor probably does have something to do with control. I don’t think women look for a man’s weaknesses and try to exploit them for control or power. The female equivalent of these bad behaviors? Not sure there is one. I think some women use men; usually financially, but those men are usually fully aware. A mutual usury, if you will.

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          His conclusion is that sex is the only thing a woman can bring to the table for him. He has close friends and family he can confide in, so the only thing a woman can bring him that he doesn’t have is sex.

          I’ve often wondered the same thing, but from a woman’s perspective. Ideally, a woman is attracted to a partner sexually, intellectually and emotionally. But is that asking too much? Are the sexes too different to provide that for each other? If a woman doesn’t want kids and can support herself financially, what does a man bring to the table?

          On a personal level, I have often found that the men I feel emotionally connected to and/or enjoy talking with on an intellectual level are usually men I don’t want to go to bed with. If I’m really attracted to a man sexually, well …  there’s usually not much else there, despite my efforts to mine some kind of depth from the situation.

        3. Shaukat

          The female equivalent of these bad behaviors? Not sure there is one.

          Yes there is, you’re just not inclined to notice it, and if you do, then like most people, it doesn’t register as “user” behavior.

          For example, as one commentator noted here a year ago or so, have you noticed that in general men don’t have anything resembling a ‘friend zone?’ We usually either want to date you seriously, or sleep with you, or nothing at all, and it often isn’t that hard to figure out which one we’re after. On the other hand, I’ve met countless women who have no qualms about ‘friend-dating’ their guy friends who they know have feelings beyond friendship for them, simply because they enjoy the ego boost or want the emotional support of a relationship minus the sexual component. I’ve never heard of a guy semi-dating a female friend like this in perpetuity, when the romantic feelings aren’t reciprocated, simply because it’s fun to have an emotional outlet and a dating friend without benefits.

          To be clear, I’m not faulting women for doing this-the male equivalent, as we all know, is using a woman for sex when it’s clear that she wants more. But while the latter is clearly recognized by everyone as “user” behavior, the former is hardly ever noticed, as evidenced by your own comment, and if it is the asymmetry in the friendship is often reduced to an example of male entitlement. To be sure, male entitlement exists, just not in this context.

        4. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          On the other hand, I’ve met countless women who have no qualms about ‘friend-dating’ their guy friends who they know have feelings beyond friendship for them, simply because they enjoy the ego boost or want the emotional support of a relationship minus the sexual component.

          That’s not how it always works. I’ve had 3 male friends in the last few years, and I assumed that’s what we were .. friends. We openly talked about other people we were interested in and/or were seeing, something I would never do with someone I wanted to land. We would hang out and do things, but they never made a move physically … until MONTHS into the friendship. And then they started throwing out all these sexual statements at me and got passive-aggressively mean when I acted surprised. I felt manipulated, like they went in the side door and not the front. They should have made their intentions known from the start. I’ve learned from these situations and now wonder if men and women really can be friends.

        5. Chance

          “Yes there is, you’re just not inclined to notice it, and if you do, then like most people, it doesn’t register as “user” behavior.”

           

          Excellent comment, Shaukat.  You took the words out of my mouth.  A male who finds himself in the friend zone is the equivalent of a female who finds herself in a f*** buddy situation.

        6. KK

          Shaukaut,

          “To be clear, I’m not faulting women for doing this-the male equivalent, as we all know, is using a woman for sex when it’s clear that she wants more”.

          Wrong. Friend- zoning a guy you’re not interested in romantically, is no where near the same as being deceptive about your intentions in order to get sex.

          When a woman says that she wants to be friends, she is being honest and letting him know she’s not interested romantically. If he chooses to friend- date, as you call it, and is then disappointed, that’s on him.

          When a man says he’s not interested in a serious relationship and a woman continues to date him and sleep with him, and is then disappointed, that’s on her. The guy that does and says everything hoping to trick a woman into sleeping with him by making her believe he cares about her and wants a serious relationship is trash.

          The first two examples are adults being honest and forthright, giving the other the option to move on, while the last example is deception for their own selfish gain, no matter how it may affect someone else.

        7. Chance

          Emily, you are correct in that some friend-zoned men are not fully truthful about their intentions just as some f*** buddy’d women are not fully truthful about their intentions.

        8. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          Emily, you are correct in that some friend-zoned men are not fully truthful about their intentions just as some f*** buddy’d women are not fully truthful about their intentions.

          At some point, though, there is such a thing sexual responsibility, for both sexes. If a woman is hanging out with a male friend and she knows he has feelings for her or if a man is casually hooking up with a woman he knows is torn up about it because she wants more, both should cut their situations off. It’s selfish to continue simply because the parties who want less are getting their needs met.

           

        9. shaukat

          @KK,

          You’re right, but I wasn’t referring to cases of outright deception (and even in such cases, there is the female equivalent, leading a man on for material/emotional benefits). I’m talking about a situation where one party continues to initiate contact with the other, knowing that they aren’t happy with the arrangement of ‘just friends’ or ‘just friends with benefits.’ I know of a situation in which a woman continued to initiate contact with a guy friend who had confessed his feelings for her, simply because she enjoyed having a ‘male confidant,’ whatever that means.

          I agree with Emily that at a certain point you people in such situations should stop being selfish and terminate all contact with the unhappy party.

           

        10. SparklingEmerald

          Shaukut Said “For example, as one commentator noted here a year ago or so, have you noticed that in general men don’t have anything resembling a ‘friend zone?’ We usually either want to date you seriously, or sleep with you, or nothing at all, and it often isn’t that hard to figure out which one we’re after.”

          Men love having friend with benefits.  Some even crudely call such women “Buck Fuddies”  (you know what I mean)  In fact, I think most men who complain about being “friend zoned” are just upset that they’ve been “friends WITHOUT benefits zoned”.  If they were offered a friends WITH benefits arrangement they wouldn’t be so upset about being “friend zoned”.

          So men do have a friend zone equivalent, it’s the friend with benefits (Buck Fuddy) arrangement.

          You can google it.  There are men’s websites that give “how to ” advice to men on how to develop and manage a “friends with benefits” relationship.  There are also “how to” websites on how to build a “soft harem” or a “Royal Harem” and this involves continuing ongoing sexual, but with no strings attached relationship.  And I’m not just talking “Red Pill” type websites, but even some more mainstream men’s websites (that don’t hate women)  casually give advice to men about how to develop and maintain ongoing sexual no strings attached relationships.

          Now as for members of both genders, if they are really unhappy about being “friend zoned” or “buck fuddied”, then the best and simplest solution is to end such relationships.  It would be nice if people would consider the feelings for the person who wants more, and not take advantage of their feelings, and I’m sure somewhere over the rainbow such people exist.  But here on earth, most people (both genders, not just men and not just women) act in their own selfish best interest. So to effectively manage one’s own happiness, don’t linger in a relationship that make you unhappy !

          But the “friend zoned” guy is going to orbit, hoping to eventually score, and the “buck fuddy” is going to continue on hoping that eventually this guy will just see how awesome she is, and fall in love.

           

        11. Emily, the original

          Sparkling Emerald,

          But the “friend zoned” guy is going to orbit, hoping to eventually score

          That’s what I don’t get. This orbiting behavior. Maybe some men can shine some light on it. I had a male friend (and I made it clear we were just friends) who, months into the friendship, was trying to finagle an overnight at my apartment because I’d invited him to go with me to another friend’s house for Thanksgiving. “You can’t blame a guy for trying,” he said.

          When a man says no to me, I don’t hang around, hoping he’ll change his mind. I don’t keep throwing it out there. I don’t interpret the “no” as a “maybe” or a “let’s negotiate.” In addition, my friend knew I was completely besotted with someone else. Why would he want to put himself in the position of being a consolation prize if it didn’t work out with the guy I really liked?

        12. Evan Marc Katz

          There’s nothing to get. Men do what they want. The fact that you would never act this way is immaterial. Men do. All the time. So pay attention and set healthy boundaries.

        13. Emily, the original

          It grosses me out. They’re always waiting for that sliver of an opening.

        14. Tyrone

          Emily, the Original
          That’s what I don’t get. This orbiting behavior. Maybe some men can shine some light on it. I had a male friend (and I made it clear we were just friends) who, months into the friendship, was trying to finagle an overnight at my apartment because I’d invited him to go with me to another friend’s house for Thanksgiving. “You can’t blame a guy for trying,” he said.
           
          Sounds like he didn’t want to give up on being interested in you. Whether it was for sex or a relationship, I couldn’t say. But, I think that this happens since we men are expected to initiate and court (aka convince) women to be interested in us. If we weren’t persistent or were prone to giving up, there wouldn’t be many men in relationships. There is a middle ground between never voicing your feelings and never accepting no as an answer. Like everything else, it’s complex and depends on the person. I’ve heard several women tell me that they initially shot down their husband or boyfriend. Or were not interested in his initial advances. Until something he did while being persistent made them want to take a chance on dating the guy. But there are some women who might be angry at that same persistence from a man she wasn’t interested in. So we think about the woman, our aptitude – “game” if you will, the situation, the costs and benefits, and then we roll the dice.
          You weren’t down for an overnight. Did you stop hanging out with your male friend after that? If not, that means he didn’t lose anything. It’s possible that you could have gotten upset and not wanted to be his friend anymore (Maybe that is what happened. I don’t know). But he must have felt that the benefit of the possible overnight and what may come of it, outweighed the cost of him not asking and thus the overnight having no POSSIBILITY of taking place. I think that is what he meant by saying you can’t blame him for trying. This is from the same though process of men complaining about being friend zoned because they didn’t make their feelings know. Sure he knew you just wanted to be friends. Maybe he did too. But maybe he changed his mind. And though it was possible that you could have done the same. Or maybe he just though that you, as a good friend that just happens to also have a vagina, might be up for some friendly “fun”. Hard to say. But again, you don’t know if you don’t ask.
          When a man says no to me, I don’t hang around, hoping he’ll change his mind.
          If you had to approach the majority of the men you’ve ever been interested in over the course of your life, you might.
           I don’t keep throwing it out there. I don’t interpret the “no” as a “maybe” or a “let’s negotiate.”
           If you’d dated women that have said no or maybe. And then that turned into a yes, you might.
          In addition, my friend knew I was completely besotted with someone else. Why would he want to put himself in the position of being a consolation prize if it didn’t work out with the guy I really liked?
           
          Because sometimes women can and do change their minds about continuing to date the person they may be currently dating. If he wants you and you decided to date or just sleep with him, (if that’s what he wanted) then you wouldn’t be his consolation prize, because you are what he wanted.

        15. Emily, the original

          Tyrone

           

          Reverse the situation. What if you had a female friend who made advances at you but you didn’t have romantic feelings for her? Would her showing interest in you change how you felt?  If she mentioned it again three months later, would you have changed your mind?

          Whether my friend asked or not, there was no possibility of the overnight happening. His asking didn’t put it on the table. There was no table.

           

          Emily said: When a man says no to me, I don’t hang around, hoping he’ll change his mind.

          Tyrone said: If you had to approach the majority of the men you’ve ever been interested in over the course of your life, you might.

          I have approached men I liked. I remember one saying no and then reappearing a few months later. He changed his mind on his own, not because I was hovering or persistent. I brought it up once. He initially said no. I never brought it up again.

          Because sometimes women can and do change their minds about continuing to date the person they may be currently dating. If he wants you and you decided to date or just sleep with him, (if that’s what he wanted) then you wouldn’t be his consolation prize, because you are what he wanted.

          I wasn’t dating the person I was besotted with, but my friend and I spent a lot of time talking about him. If I had said yes to my friend, he would have been MY consolation prize.

          Yes, we are still friends. I wasn’t angry at him. Just annoyed. I didn’t think he was aggressive enough to follow through. His idea of boldness is texting, so there was no need for him to bring it up at all.

        16. Tyrone

          Emily, the original

          Reverse the situation. What if you had a female friend who made advances at you but you didn’t have romantic feelings for her? Would her showing interest in you change how you felt?  If she mentioned it again three months later, would you have changed your mind?

          I have several female friends that have done this, especially since I’ve been single. I assume they do it because they know that people’s feelings can and do change. Some of them attempted to do more that just ask with words – leading to group only visits. I assume they thought that I could be….persuaded into changing my mind. 
          As for me personally, my feelings wouldn’t change. My personality is more of a when I’m not interested/no longer interested, I won’t be again. And if she breaks it off with me, I won’t be interested in pursuing her later. I’m not the type to try to make up with exes or revisit old flings. I like to keep it moving forward.
           
          Whether my friend asked or not, there was no possibility of the overnight happening. His asking didn’t put it on the table. There was no table.
           
          Unless he was joking, HIS asking put it on HIS table. You know there is no possibility of you two spending the night together. But to him (and men in general), there is almost always at least a POSSIBILITY of dating/hooking up/whatever the girl you like at some point – he just has to figure it. The guys that turn their backs completely on that possibility are the ones that complain that they can never ever meet a woman or that all women hate them – they never bother to ask and or pursue. In his mind never asking = auto 100% no. Asking = something less than that auto 100% no. So he probably figured why not ask.
           
          I have approached men I liked. I remember one saying no and then reappearing a few months later. He changed his mind on his own, not because I was hovering or persistent. I brought it up once. He initially said no. I never brought it up again.
           
          That’s ok, but that rationale doesn’t answer your question. Nor does my personal rationale. But if you are what he wanted and he believes in not giving up on that for good, then a persistence that has been forged over the years by the way men are typically socialized could explain it. Men still do the majority of the approaching.
           
          I wasn’t dating the person I was besotted with, but my friend and I spent a lot of time talking about him. If I had said yes to my friend, he would have been MY consolation prize.

          Obviously you wouldn’t want a consolation prize. But from his point of view there would just be him and you – the “prize”.

          Yes, we are still friends. I wasn’t angry at him. Just annoyed. I didn’t think he was aggressive enough to follow through. His idea of boldness is texting, so there was no need for him to bring it up at all.
           
           
          Maybe he was trying to run before he could walk. Gotta start being more aggressive at some point, right?. Maybe you were just the unlucky one that night. We can’t please every women we try to hit on. Glad to hear it wasn’t too serious and you both are still friends.

        17. Emily, the original

          Tyrone,

          As for me personally, my feelings wouldn’t change. My personality is more of a when I’m not interested/no longer interested, I won’t be again.

          Me, too. I’m into someone or I’m not. My friend and I even agreed that you can pretty much tell within a few minutes of meeting someone if you’re interested enough to even consider them a potential sex partner. Now, later on, you might get to know the person and change your mind, but the initial appeal is sparked pretty early.
           
            In his mind never asking = auto 100% no. Asking = something less than that auto 100% no. So he probably figured why not ask.

          I guess, but, to be honest, women can usually tell when a guy is interested, and if we feel the same way, we say and do things to make it obvious his approach will get the green light. We help him out. If a man is having to go blindly into the approach, the women isn’t picking up the signals or she doesn’t want to.

          Obviously you wouldn’t want a consolation prize. But from his point of view there would just be him and you – the “prize.”

          In my mind, the “prize” is the other guy. Although my friend may be thinking it’s just him and me, I’d be thinking I’d rather be with someone else. And I’d probably regret hooking up with my friend. Women don’t always feel the need to pick option B because option A doesn’t work out. Sometimes we don’t pick anyone at all. And there’s nothing that kills a lady boner more than a man rambling on about some other girl he likes. Why doesn’t that kill it for men when women talk about other guys?

           

        18. Buck25

          @ Emily,

          Only weak betas “orbit” around the friend zone. I either move on to the next opportunity (most likely) , or where it’s worthwhile, may maintain a strictly platonic friendship which actually IS one (i.e. that woman is of no romantic interest to me at all). If that sounds a bit cold, experience long ago taught me that one is ill advised to mix “friendship” with sex; it inevitably ruins a perfectly good friendship, and someone is bound to get their feelings hurt, sooner or later. That’s reality, as if a man needed any further incentive beyond having enough pride and self-respect not to wish to be anyone’s “consolation prize” (to borrow your phrase). Can’t say I fancy the idea of being any woman’s second option, “just in case”, either. I’ve never known any woman who cared to be that, so don’t see any reason a man should either. If I don’t desire a woman now, it’s not going to be any different six months or a year from now; I assume the same goes for a woman with regard to a man.

        19. Tyrone

          Emily, the original

          And there’s nothing that kills a lady boner more than a man rambling on about some other girl he likes. Why doesn’t that kill it for men when women talk about other guys?

          I would guess that is has to do with a certain amount of confidence or arrogance on the man’s part. Wishful thinking maybe. Possibly some desperation for some. As the woman talks about some guy, the man that you are speaking possibly thinks that he wants you, and would be better for you than the guy you are speaking about. Either way, he wants what he wants regardless of the man that you like. So he probably figured it was best to say something and get a possible yes/no, rather than never know. In the case of your friend specifically, whom you mentioned was a bit non-assertive, he may have been sitting on this feeling and for some reason felt he needed to voice it that particular night. Maybe he say either a moment of opportunity or a closing window of time to act.

          But I’m 100% in agreement with you that talking about someone else of interest should have made him less inclined to try to get with you. But we aren’t necessarily looking at things form his point of view with that thought process.

        20. Emily, the original

          Tyrone,

          So he probably figured it was best to say something and get a possible yes/no, rather than never know.

          Fair enough. But what I don’t understand is bringing it up again … and again. (Maybe two or three more times over the course of a couple of years). Weak, non-assertive statements in a text such as “You’ve always had my attention.” Why bother doing that? He already knows the answer and it’s not as if what he texts is in any way showing me he’s actually going to DO something.

        21. Tyrone

          Emily, the original

          Fair enough. But what I don’t understand is bringing it up again … and again. (Maybe two or three more times over the course of a couple of years). Weak, non-assertive statements in a text such as “You’ve always had my attention.” Why bother doing that? He already knows the answer and it’s not as if what he texts is in any way showing me he’s actually going to DO something.

          I think there could be a couple of possible reasons. It sounds like he is “fishing” every once in a while and hoping it may be different from the last time. Maybe he wants to do something, or wants to do/say more, but his weaker, non-assertive nature makes it difficult for him due to fear of rejection. So he doesn’t want to put himself out there too much unless he knows you will reciprocate – so he casts the fishing line from time to time to see if anything has changed. Or maybe he doesn’t want to be too assertive in his asking for fear that he may cause a rift in the friendship.

        22. Emily, the original

          Tyrone,

          Or maybe he doesn’t want to be too assertive in his asking for fear that he may cause a rift in the friendship.

          We work together. If I see him in the halls, I will say hello and chat, but outside of work our friendship has been reduced to the occasional text maybe once every couple of weeks. He initiates the texting. I stopped making much of an effort after he blew me off two times when we had plans. He’s a single father, and all he really cares about are his kids. We never used to hang out a lot, but we would talk on the phone. I just don’t think he’s interested in exerting much energy for any relationship outside of his family. So the random “fishing” expedition (as you call it) is doubly ridiculous given that he can’t even show up to hang out with me.

        23. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi Adrian!

          So, before I read the other downstream comments, I’ll share with you the first thing that came to my mind when I read your question.  Which restated (I think) means what “strategy” do women use in selecting a date/mate to make sure that they are in control in the relationship?

          First, Evan has a blogpost review of Suzanne Venker’s book “How to Choose a Husband:  And Make Peace With Marriage” awhile back  I bring that up because S.V. has a new book coming out, “The Alpha Female’s Guide to Men and Marriage.”  If you read the first 20 pages or so that’s available on her site or on amazon, she gives a really good description of how a woman with a lot of alpha characteristics often winds up being the major decision maker in the household, even to the point of micromanaging (i.e. nagging) her husband.  She points out that it’s not only high powered career women who can do this in a marriage, but also stay at home moms and full time homemakers as well.

          I make this point because I see it quite often:   People use a person’s profession or life role as an indicator of their alpha/beta trait balance and it’s just not always true.  So where you say that some men will date a woman who makes less money than them or is younger than them because they feel it will mean they have control?  Well let me tell you how many highly educated, high earning men I know who’s sweet, unambitious, relationship focused girlfriend eventually morphed into a wife who completely controls her house, her kids, her husband, and their bank account.

          It’s actually a cliche in O.R. environments, the surgeon who is domineering in surgery, pitches a fit when things don’t go his way, and yells at the staff because he can’t pull that shit with his wife at home.  Now these women may describe their control-freakishness as being organized, helpful, devoted, or “doing every thing for everyone.”  But really, they are control freaks.

           

      2. 2.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Hi Buck25,

        Only weak betas “orbit” around the friend zone.

        Yes, his approach was flim-flammy, as have been his handful of subsequent attempts over the years. Offhand comments over text.

        That’s reality, as if a man needed any further incentive beyond having enough pride and self-respect not to wish to be anyone’s “consolation prize” (to borrow your phrase). Can’t say I fancy the idea of being any woman’s second option, “just in case”, either. I’ve never known any woman who cared to be that, so don’t see any reason a man should either.

        I totally agree. At some point, it comes down to self-respect. I had another male friend who openly talked about his two girlfriends and every so often would throw things out at me. I don’t know how serious he was, it was hard to tell, but I thought: Does he actually think I’m going to wait in line?

         

    2. 2.2
      Henriette

      @Theodora,  it feels as tho’ the subtext of your question is that tired trope of, Western women are fat, slutty and entitled while Eastern women are sweet, lithe and oh-so-grateful.   When dear ol’ Rusty used to frequent this site, we read this refrain on an almost-weekly basis.

      However, unhelpful (and false) comparisons aside, you bring up an interesting point.  In a world where where girls are already more likely than boys to attend university, where women are increasingly out-earning their husbands, where we are about to see the first female US President elected (groan), mustn’t we adjust our expectations of  men and women in romantic relationships and family dynamics?  Is it fair to expect men to still do the lions’ share of  providing and protecting?  And how do we now define “a woman’s role?”  How could a high-earning female who wanted a man who would still protect and provide make a space for him to do so in non-financial ways?  What lessons should we teach our sons for future success in love and marriage?   I believe these are useful topics to tackle and I look forward to reading your response.

      1. 2.2.1
        Adrian

        Hi Henriette,

        Theodora said that she lives in another country (for some reason I thought you lived in Canada), so she has first hand experience that I can not argue with.

        But I can argue against guys who feel European women are better than American women. As a person who has done a lot of traveling around the world, I can almost guarantee that most of these guys have never been outside of the US and have never really dated a foreign woman or they would not have such unrealistic fantasies of how life would be dating one.

        I think a lot of these men mistake the green card chasers who are willing to put up with sorry, unattractive, old, out of shape, and poor guys for a chance to get out of their countries, with a foreign woman who is financially secure.

        …   …   …

        That aside: To answer your question, I believe once two people of the same social class date, most of the protector, provider things naturally fall into place.

        If it cost a dollar to enter the fair and once inside everything is free; If you and I both had a dollar and we went together (Yay!), then money would not be a topic for us-we would focus on other areas about each others character to see if we are compatible.

        That is why thanks to being able to observe the many thoughts, emotions and words of women on this site, I now believe that women who make good money want men to court them not because they need him to pay, but because they want to see his character. I’m not a woman so I won’t lie and say I fully understand it, but I know that the guy paying is not about money for most women.

        As far as protection, again if you and I were together at the fair and an employee was cheating on the games at his booth by tricking customers to con them out of their money,  but you saw it and prevented me from going to his booth-did you not just protect me? Since women care about the men they date and so are constantly looking out for his well being, are they not his protector?

        I think many people (men and women) focus too much on thinking a protector is a big strong man who can physically beat up another man and make a woman feel safe. But we forget all the times women protect men in non-combative ways.

        1. Henriette

          @Adrian: Thanks for your response.  I do currently live in Canada; I’m interested to learn that something I wrote might indicate that I don’t?  Based on Theodora’s past comments, I suspect she’s a North American male who likes to imagine Eastern European women are better than those he could find locally.  But even if Ted is indeed a woman living in a “small Eastern European country,” the question of we stay slim and attractive and we cook and clean for our men, what do you Western women bring to the table? seems rather pointed.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Henriette,

          “Based on Theodora’s past comments, I suspect she’s a North American male who likes to imagine Eastern European women are better than those he could find locally.”

          LOL!  Several posts ago Tom10 and I, in close succession, posted replies to “Theodora” where Tom used Theo and I said Ted.  Agree “Theodora’s” post are very North American male with fetish for fantasy Eastern European women like.

          Since 1 grandparent and 4 great grandparents of mine immigrated to the U.S. from Poland, I have first hand knowledge that both the men and the women are strong resilient people.

    3. 2.3
      Stacy2

      You are asking a wronng question. The real question is: what does a man bring to the table, when the woman has her own degrees, makes her own money, hires her own household help to “clean and cook and change diapers” – other than his presence? The answer is his dick and a sperm cell to conceive a child. Both of which are widely available in our “post feminist societies”.

      The reality is in this day and age most people don’t NEED each other to survive and live comfortably. At least in the developed world. Perhaps in your country a man could starve unless his wife makes him a meal, here we invented takeout and seamless. So, what both parties bring to the table is just that; their presence and  emotional support. And to that end, men WANT to be treated like “protectors and providers” (even though they cant protect me from anything and I make more than most).

      1. 2.3.1
        Tyrone

        Stacy2

        I don’t think that most men take issue with being treated as “protectors and providers” on the surface. The issue arises when women think the way your second sentence explains:

        The real question is: what does a man bring to the table, when the woman has her own degrees, makes her own money, hires her own household help to “clean and cook and change diapers” – other than his presence? The answer is his dick and a sperm cell to conceive a child.

        This attitude shames men for being protectors/providers. You don’t need them. In cases you don’t necessarily want them. You can do anything they can do. But when you are feeling froggy, you’ll happily take his dick. And when you use the sperm cell to have a baby, you’ll happily take his money. However,  if the man is there, you may enjoy a two income household, a better environment to raise your children in,  and the option to be a stay at home parent if you wish. And who want’s that?

        The other end shames men too. You want a man that doesn’t think he needs to be the protector/provider? Fuck traditional gender roles. Well, just as long as he is taller than you, makes money that you, and is still willing to do “manly” things like pay for the first few dates, lift heavy objects and dig holes in yards. Cause those men aren’t chivalrous. And you can’t help what you are attracted to.

        All of those things have been touched on by women in the comments of various blogs here.

        Women want to be be treated like women – courted, helped (when needed and without having to ask for it), and adored (be the most beautiful woman to their S.O.) Nothing wrong with that those ideas, though I take some issue with what I put in parenthesis. But some of you also want to be treated like “men” when it suits you. You don’t need anything more than companionship? Then why are so many women concerned about height? Why are so many concerned about making more or less than a man, just like you are?  You can hire someone to take care of the baby? Cool. Why then are men still paying alimony and or child support?

        It seems to me that in “post feminist societies” women are the ones that can get away with only bringing their presence and emotional support to the table, not men. Obviously women can bring much more – but they don’t have to. They won’t be stigmatized for not doing so. How many times have you heard people praise single mothers? Or say it’s the hardest job? We straight up tell women that they can and should find someone that can support and help take care of them. They are free to do this if they like, pursue other dreams/desires if they like, or even do both if they like.

        Men are still EXPECTED to provide. Look through the comment section here to see women complaining about having to take care of men that weren’t doing anything. Look to you own comment to see how some women view men that make less.

        I think that is the point of the video.

         

        1. Stacy2

          The point is to not shame men, the point is to get them to strive being better partners in ways that are at least somewhat deeper than being a “provider or protector”. It is time we all got over this bullshit, ok? The marriage/relationship of utility is largely the thing of the past. You are not protecting me from anything in the depths of american suburbia or an urban center. You are not “providing” for me either. Likewise, my culinary skills are not something that will keep you from starving, you don’t need me to repair your clothes or help you with the harvest. Lets get real. We don’t NEED each other, for anything at all, but it is especially true for women (we don’t need sex as much and we can have our own children). It would serve both sides well to move on past this ridiculous construct of “i cook you protect” and actually try to become better partners.

        2. Tyrone

          Stacy2
          The point is to not shame men, the point is to get them to strive being better partners in ways that are at least somewhat deeper than being a “provider or protector”. It is time we all got over this bullshit, ok? 
          You aren’t actually being protected from anything. We are talking about feelings. Subconscious thought.
          Woman says she feels “safe” with a tall man.
          It’s 2016. People have guns. Tall men aren’t bullet proof.
          Yet the feeling isn’t generally negated.
          No one needs women to cook. Take raw food, put over heat for x amount of time. That equals cooking and sustenance.
          It’s about compromise. Give and take. Working together. Not cooking and protecting. That is just an example of the traditional dynamic that this is representative of.
           
          Men are primarily raised with the mentality of protector/provider. And women are raised expecting this of men. Even if you don’t like it. And as much as you don’t like it, that man is still expected to put his life before yours should it ever come down to it. Be it a mugging, a sinking ship, etc. This is not an expectation that will ever be place on you as a woman. If your boyfriend gets the shit kicked out of him in your presence and you come away without a scratch, no one would ever say anything. But if you were beat on by a mugger, and your boyfriend froze and watched, he’d never live it down. That is the world we live in. so you can say you don’t need/want a man to protect you. That’s fine. I agree that you should protect, provide and pay for yourself. There are plenty of men that don’t want you to cook. I’m one of them. I’ve yet to date a woman that can out cook me. But that isn’t the society we live in. Men are on the whole expected to make the money and pay for the majority of the family’s well-being. It’s naïve to think that this doesn’t bleed in to the aspects of the male/female dynamic. Part of the whole aspect of chivalry and date paying is to show you are generous and able to provide.

        3. Tyrone

          Stacy2

          The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them. So unless they’re paying for their half of a $300 Nobu dinners and $1m house, I would be subsidizing them and I don’t think its fair to me.

          Based on this logic, why then would a man with a higher income choose to date you? He’d be subsidizing your dinners and your potentially less expensive $1M house – aka putting himself in the exact position that you refuse to be put in. That wouldn’t be fair to him. Even though apparently all he has to offer is dick, sperm, and companionship because, as you said, women especially don’t need anything from a man.

          Seems legit.

          Male and female gold diggers exist at every income level – lowest to highest. It’s your prerogative to only date men that outearn you. But don’t try to act like you do it for some magical non gender role reasons. You, as a women, don’t feel you should have to financially support a boyfriend/husband.

          This just in – most women feel the same way! Even though in reality it is no more or less fair for a man to help to financially support you, than it is for you to help to financially support him. Yet you literally want a man to do what you won’t do. Why? Because it’s what’s fair to you – while simultaneously being unfair to him. They only way such a statement could not seem insane to you is becasue we live in a society where what you are asking for (though not necessarily the way you are wording it) it a fairly normalized expectation. Men are expected to earn and provide. Even in “post feminist society”, even if you “out earn most men” – you still place the same expectation on them that you try and claim you do not. This may be a shock to you, but there are people that make less than $600k/yr living in expensive homes and able to take exotic vacations and enjoy nice dinners. CRAZY!

          Just admit that you are a hypocrite.

        4. Stacy2

          Tyrone:

          Based on this logic, why then would a man with a higher income choose to date you? He’d be subsidizing your dinners and your potentially less expensive $1M house – aka putting himself in the exact position that you refuse to be put in.

          Beats me, to be honest. I find that most men I date these days are in the same general income bracket as myself. But whenever I see a couple with a large income discrepancy I pity the chump.

          Yet you literally want a man to do what you won’t do.

          No, actually, I don’t. Not me personally anyway (perhaps this was a royal “you”?)

          This may be a shock to you, but there are people that make less than $600k/yr living in expensive homes and able to take exotic vacations and enjoy nice dinners. CRAZY!

          Not where I live they don’t, sorry. I live in one of the most expensive metro areas in the country.

          Just admit that you are a hypocrite

          I am not. I don’t expect anything from my partner that I don’t deliver myself.

        5. Tyrone

          Stacy2
          Beats me, to be honest. I find that most men I date these days are in the same general income bracket as myself. But whenever I see a couple with a large income discrepancy I pity the chump.
           
          Same income bracket, but still making more than you? Or making less? Because I thought you said:
           
          “The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them.” 
          Which directly states you will not date a man making less than you. Thus implying that you will only date a man that makes equal to or more than you. And if that man happens to make more, you are fine with him doing something that you refuse to do yourself. There is no super leap in logic required to see this.
          So do you choose not to get involve with men that man less than you, or don’t you? Doesn’t matter to me. I don’t know you, so all I have to go on are your statements:
          “The real question is: what does a man bring to the table, when the woman has her own degrees, makes her own money, hires her own household help to “clean and cook and change diapers” – other than his presence? The answer is his dick and a sperm cell to conceive a child.”
          “The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them.”
          “I am not. I don’t expect anything from my partner that I don’t deliver myself.”
           
          And based on your statements, you very much expect a man to do what you aren’t doing – make more money than you do. He would need to bring this money to the table (along with his dick and sperm) to date you. So how would I be wrong to call this hypocrisy?

        6. Stacy2

          Tyrone:

          Which directly states you will not date a man making less than you. Thus implying that you will only date a man that makes equal to or more than you. And if that man happens to make more, you are fine with him doing something that you refuse to do yourself. There is no super leap in logic required to see this.

          I am rolling my eyes here. Are you for real? No, I do not require a man to make exactly the same amount as I do and provide a CPA verified tax return to support that. As long as he’s in the same ballpark and he can afford the same lifestyle that I do I am fine with it. Where I live, clearing $300K is usually good enough to pay for lifestyle, and if he makes more good for him, that’s his money to save and invest. If you read me here before, I do not intend to ever re-marry, so whatever “extra” the guy makes and saves will always be his own. I don’t want to have any claims on his prior or future assets. As long as we’re on the same page re lifestyle, I am good. How is this hypocritical?

          Now, would I date a guy who makes much more than me or is truly wealthy? Sure why not if there’s a spark. But this is not a requirement and I don’t seek it out. I ended a relationship with one such guy not long ago (for reasons unrelated to money). Once I know the guy can comfortably afford the same lifestyle, I really and truly don’t care how wealthy he is or how much more he makes. Why would I? That is not my money and never will be.

        7. Tyrone

          Stacy2
          I am rolling my eyes here. Are you for real? No, I do not require a man to make exactly the same amount as I do
          Roll your eyes all you want. You’re the one that made the statement.
          “The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them.” 
           
          It’s pretty clear cut. You are just trying to back peddle by saying the man can make the same or (now) less as long as they are in the ballpark of your lifestyle requirement. Either you meant what you said or you didn’t. If you errored in your statement and don’t actually mean what you said, then no it isn’t a hypocritical statement.

        8. KK

          In a comment, directed at me, Stacy2 said:  “The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them”.

          So maybe your mind has changed since you said that yesterday. Or since all the other times you’ve said that you will only consider getting involved with someone who makes MORE than you. I don’t think anyone cares what your “requirements” are. Maybe you only want to date guys who dress up as clowns on the weekend. But it’s certainly fair for anyone to say, hey, isn’t that a double standard? Or for other women to make it clear we don’t all think the way you do.

        9. Stacy2

          @ Tyrone & KK

          I believe that any reasonable person would understand my comments exactly as they were intended. If you chose to interpret them in an absurdly literal way (like, implying I wouldn’t date anyone who makes $500K for example which clearly is not the case though if you interpret everything literally it would seem like it is) – that is your issue entirely, and may be you should self reflect on why my position bothers you so much that you’re essentially trolling.

      2. 2.3.2
        Shaukat

        It would serve both sides well to move on past this ridiculous construct of “i cook you protect” and actually try to become better partners.

        I fully agree with this statement. Anyone (man or woman) who asks what a potential mate can “bring to the table,” other than warmth, love, emotional support, friendship, companionship and good sex, is either incompetent at life, a shameless gold digger, or was born in the 1920’s.

      3. 2.3.3
        ScottH

        Stacy said:  the point is to get them to strive being better partners in ways that are at least somewhat deeper than being a “provider or protector”.    I absolutely agree with this but it certainly applies to both genders.  

        Stacy said:  Lets get real. We don’t NEED each other, for anything at all…  Doesn’t this contradict what you just said (above)?  Go read about attachment theory and listen to Helen Fischer’s Ted talks about the need for loving reliable partners and then lets continue this conversation.  We DO need a partner we can rely on.   We DO need love.  And there is nothing shameful about admitting that.  Evan wouldn’t be in business if it weren’t for those facts, and we wouldn’t have found him either if not for those facts.

        1. KK

          Yes, Scott, it is a contradiction. What she failed to mention this time around is that she makes $600k a year and will only get involved with men who make more. Seems like this is a bit of a contradiction also. If she chooses to respond, I’m sure it will be yet another personal attack because I had the nerve to mention the obvious once again.

        2. Stacy2

          “Doesn’t this contradict what you just said (above)?  Go read about attachment theory and listen to Helen Fischer’s Ted talks about the need for loving reliable partners and then lets continue this conversation.”

          Jeez, and here I thought that getting a divorce would mean not having a man trying to order me around? What gives people an idea that they can tell me what to do?

          To answer your question: no, this isn’t a contradiction and it all depends on your definition of what constitutes a “need” vs. a “want”. No, we do not “need” emotional support and partnership in a way that we need food and shelter (i am sure you’re familiar with the Maslow pyramid). So whereas in the past people literally had to be married off to ensure physical survival, now we tend to pair up to get those nice-to-haves, mostly. And yet a surprising number of male commenters on this forum seem to think that a woman’s main value still lays in her cooking and cleaning. This is absurd. Hope this point is clear enough.

        3. Stacy2

          @KK: “What she failed to mention this time around is that she makes $600k a year and will only get involved with men who make more. Seems like this is a bit of a contradiction also”

          I am oh so thrilled to receive such personalized attention from you. The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them. So unless they’re paying for their half of a $300 Nobu dinners and $1m house, I would be subsidizing them and I don’t think its fair to me. Given that women like you demand “lifestyle they formerly became accustomed to”, wink, wink, I am sure you understand.

        4. KK

          @Stacy2:

          I don’t understand why it pisses you off that anyone point out the contradictions you’ve made.

          And as for your attempts at an insult, I don’t have the same “lifestyle” as when I was married. Seems since you’re such a financial genius, you’d be able to figure that out. You’ve tried repeatedly to put me in a box. You don’t know my financial situation because, unlike you, I haven’t mentioned it.

      4. 2.3.4
        Chance

        Stacy2, when I see  your comments here, I can sense your pain of having to pay off a deadbeat when you got divorced.  While I have never been married, I have known many people in a similar situation as you so I can sympathize.  You’ve worked very hard for your money, and it’s nauseating that our divorce laws force you to provide long-term subsidies to an undeserving partner.  IMO, most people who siphon the life out of another human being via alimony payments are pieces of garbage who take much more from this world than they give back.

      5. 2.3.5
        ScottH

        “Hope this point is clear enough.”

        Yes, I’m familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.  Thanks for asking.  And interesting that the High Finance Status Seeker that you are puts food and shelter above love and intimacy.

        And I thought getting divorced meant not having to try to have a meaningful conversation with a closed minded stubborn woman….

        What’s crystal clear is that it is pointless to continue this “discussion” with you.

      6. 2.3.6
        Buck25

        Stacy,

        I’m in a far different age group from you, so this isn’t personal, but I am in the same general income range as you, and the attitude you express troubles me. I mean, if a woman makes somewhere close to what I do, and she also feels (as you say), that a man has nothing to bring to the table but “his dick and a sperm cell”, I wonder what that implies for me, as far as a relationship, (marriage or otherwise).

        I don’t need someone to cook for me; I like cooking, and honestly, I’ve gotten better at it than most women. I won’t starve, if I’m never in a relationship again. Ditto for housecleaning; like you, I can hire someone for that task, (and I do). Even with sex, I may not, as a male, have as easy access to that as you do, but I know that, push come to shove, I can buy that as well; so it appears, that I no more “need” a woman, in order to survive and have my basic needs met, than you “need” a man for the same. So I guess you and I have earned our way out of needing much of anything, and all is well on the house on the hill.

        Still, I can’t help but feel, sometimes in the quiet wee hours of the night, that I sure would LIKE something more than that, and that “presence and emotional support” is a big part of that. You know, though, I’d feel a little empty, if that and good sex was the only thing I could give to my woman. You may think it’s obsolete, and maybe it is, but I want to feel like she’d see me as a provider and protector. No, not because I think she’s helpless, or because I think she can’t take care of herself, or because she needs me to do that, but just because I want to, and she’s ok with letting me do that, just a little. Same with protection; it’s unlikely she’ll ever need me to protect her from an intruder, or take a bullet for her (hell, where I live, we hardly need to lock our doors), but it would be nice if she know I would if I had to, just the same. Yes, I know, I know; old Don Quixote is tilting at his windmills again. Some of the things women believe today make me feel like an anachronism. I hear comments that make it sound like accomplished women feel chivalry is degrading and patronizing to them, and I feel a little sad, because that’s not the way it’s meant, not in my world, anyway.

        I’ve noticed though, that even the “Eat, Pray,Love” crowd says they want a man to be their hero and champion. I’m fine with that…as long as a woman doesn’t expect me to be the perfect shining knight every woman wants. My name isn’t Galahad, I don’t own a white horse, and my armor is somewhat rusty; but I’d like to think I could still be ONE woman’s hero…if she’ll let me be; but I can only be my best, not someone else’s best, and if a woman is so independent she thinks she can do it better herself, where does that leave me? Same with leading; I can lead you through the waltz…if you’ll let me; but I have trouble dancing with a partner who wants to lead herself; I just never learned to do it that way.

        So I read your comments (and some others here as well) and wonder if I, as a man raised the way I was,  have anything to bring to the table at all, for women in this current age, and it makes me feel a little obsolete, and wondering just what the hell I’m supposed to be. And I can’t help feeling little sad too, that matters have come to a pass where a woman who has achieved so much now has to first of all make sure that a man isn’t a potential freeloader (gold diggers, such as they are, are an occupational hazard for men). I remember a time when such men were rarities,a mere handful of scoundrels and reprobates easy enough to identify. I guess for you and me,  like the old song says, “you can exist in a house on a hill, but the price that you pay ain’t cheap.”

        1. ScottH

          Buck- you shouldn’t feel obsolete.  The values you mention haven’t changed and won’t.  Presence and emotional support ARE A NEED, not to keep from dying, but to have a thriving life.

          The most important things in life can’t be bought or replaced by money, $300 dinners, fancy shoes, high status, etc…  If someone starts their search among the top 0.5% of the population and goes from there, they will have a very very small pond to fish in.  If those are her values, so be it.  Who are we to criticize someone whose values we don’t agree with?  Those don’t have to be yours and they certainly aren’t mine.   To each her own.  And I certainly won’t be made to feel inadequate because I’m not in High anything and don’t make $300k.  Hell, my daddy could put her High Status ass in jail for life and he didn’t make that kind of money.  Talk about status.

        2. Caroline

          I’d like to think as an older woman that I’m not obsolete. That I could emotionally support a man my age; giving him love, laughter, continuity of going through and conquering the many tribulations and celebrations life has afforded me. I’d like to have the wrinkles around my eyes to be viewed as the accumulation of a lifetime of laughter. I’d like to think the softness of my belly would be viewed not as a thanksgiving meal but where my children found security and unconditional love. I’d like to think I’d not have to produce my detailed food diary (ratios of protein to carb/calories/my fitbit steps, etc) or be subjected to a physical fitness shit test to somehow prove I could keep up with his voraciousness for life. When undoubtedly as a woman and my genetics I will most likely outlive him by a decade or two. I’d like to be viewed as still sexually viable although I may not fit some physical ideal projected by a woman he could buy half his age. Yes indeed, we would all like to be accepted for our good qualities hoping our negatives will outweigh our frailties

        3. Caroline

          Sorry, meant to say. I hope my positives outweigh my human frailties.

        4. Buck25

          @ Caroline,

          Not sure where that come from in the current context; anyway, I thought you were enjoying that in your current relationship; at least, it sounded promising, last you mentioned it. Hope all is still going well.

        5. Stacy2

          I don’t think you should feel obsolete. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy that’s ok and many woman myself included will willingly play this game and stroke your ego – as long as you’re not actually delusional to the point that you think this is real.

          I do think you should think about what you really, practically bring to the table. In my own personal experience, men will use the label of “provider and protector” even when they don’t actually protect and don’t actually provide to avoid doing anything else at all. They would sit on the couch all day doing nothing but being a “protector on standby” (in case zee germans invade??) I kid you not, i have seen it play out in my life. Which is why whenever a guy invokes the protector card I roll my eyes. Sure dear. You protect me. You’re so strong and i feel so much safer now in this luxury condo I pay for with the 24hr doorman and intercom in the safest area of the city. Now that YOU are here it makes all the difference. Btw, why the F are your dirty dishes still in the sink? Too good to put them into dishwasher? Or been busy “protecting”? What a load of BS. It may sound cynical but it is true.

          And don’t even get me started on the whole emotional support thing. Sure, it would be nice to have some emotional support from a partner. Do I want it/crave it? Absolutely. But again, in my experience, most men are remarkably bad at giving it. Fact, your dog is way better at providing emotional support than most men. But, of course, men like being emotionally supported, etc.

          Basically, what I am saying is, men need actually look at their actual contribution to a relationship. And the sad truth is, when you take out “protecting and providing” it isn’t much for the most part. May be this is why this generation of men is so confused. If you could get better at the “soft skills” of relationships, you’d be golden.

        6. Caroline

          Buck-there’s something about your comment I just can’t wrap my head around. I agree with Scott-those are my values also. You’ve made it very clear how unattractive and out of shape women my age are to you. That’s fine. Intellectually I realize there are men who will find me appealing and hopefully appreciate a woman who strives to be nurturing and loving as I was raised. It’s the idea that I should feel that the woman you bought who was much sexier should somehow appreciate your chivalry? When, and I quote – “all the condemnation I hear of men doing what I’m considering (buying a younger sexier woman) comes from women who don’t have what it takes for a man to even want to buy their companionship”. I’m sorry Buck. Did I miss something? Misconstrue what your values are? I mean ouch! It’s not like this isn’t a mainstream thought by men your age about older women. But I also gotta suck it up and feel something like empathy when your chivalrous acts aren’t t appreciated by a woman who is with you because of your money?

          Please enlighten me since I don’t get it

        7. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi Buck!

          Your values are not obsolete!

          I can’t speak for all women, but for myself, when I think about how I want and even need a man to be a “provider/protector” for me it’s as someone who has my back and will look out for me.

          To give you an example, I rented a house I owned to a good friend of mine, and things went smoothly for for a few years.  Then a little over a year ago she and her husband began to have both health and job/financial issues.  The rent started coming in later and later in the month.  Then the amount of the checks was reduced with promises to “catch up” in a week or two, or when X happened.

          I believed her because I valued our friendship and I naively and foolishly gave her the benefit of the doubt.  Unfortunately, I learned a financially and emotionally costly life lesson in the end that was inevitable.  This wasn’t the first time I was taken advantage of and it won’t be the last 🙁

          For me it would be nice if I had a partner who looks out for me and could give me a reality check when he sees something happening that I don’t because I’m too emotionally invested.  And also a shoulder to cry on about the whole messed up situation.

          Of course I also greatly appreciate scorpion, tarantula, and snake removal, and a token of my appreciation would be immediately forthcoming for such protection services rendered 😉

        8. Buck25

          @ Caroline,

          OK , I think I see the point of confusion;  I don’t think you and I have had any discussion since that earlier exchange when I left here for a while; I had assumed you’d seen some subsequent exchanges with Henriette and Emily. At any rate there have been some new developments recently.

          That effort with leading with money online only produced another string of bad dates, albeit this time at the other extreme of the age spectrum. I had not anticipated dating the twenty-something and thirty-something crowd, but that’s what it drew. I finally concluded that one extreme was as bad as the other, and simply gave up with the whole online approach. By my reckoning, my best opportunities for hitting that so far elusive sweet spot are in real life. I did reconnect with an old high school classmate, which looked to possibly be headed to something, but that never quite materialized as anything more than a pleasant friendship, and so matters stood as this week wound down. However, before I could despair too much, the social network I’ve been cultivating started kicking in, with several dates set up. One in particular went extremely well, and while it’s too early to know just yet,  matters may be taking a far more hopeful turn.

        9. Buck25

          “Of course, I greatly appreciate scorpion, tarantula and snake removal…”

          GWTF,

          I thought of asking Stacy whether she felt confident with disposing of her own “creepy crawlers”. Then again, I doubt she has any scorpions, tarantulas and snakes in her neck of the woods, and I thought she might be offended at the idea that her luxury NY condo could ever harbor any rats, mice, cockroaches, or other such plebeian pests. Then too, I suppose she can just buzz the doorman to take care of the matter in the unlikely event one were to disturb her, so all in all, I guess that’s not relevant in her world… Funny you should mention that, though, as most women of my acquaintance have been happy to have a man about to swat the spiders and roaches, and dispose of the occasional dead mouse after the trap has done its job, much less dispose of her cat’s dead (and not-so-dead) “gifts to the humans”. 🙂

        10. Caroline

          @Buck-thank you for the kind response. No, I didn’t see your interactions with others about the matter-comes to be they were on the blog post about sexist remarks which until now I honestly didn’t want to contribute to because of the troll remarks. I’ve made a decision to not interact when the remarks show absolutely no regard for others opinions.

          I’m very happy you went out and explored other possibilities even just to see the “other side of the coin” when you lead with money. I hope you might consider your online interactions where you found women searching for higher status were probably because you lead with money. If you decide to supplement your irl dating with online; I hope you will consider taking a look at what your profile is really saying and how you come across in your first “meet up”.

          I also am more comfortAble meeting others in an organic manner. Personally, it helps me not from feeling so judged by men. If we are interacting in person, I’m gonna assume he approves of what he sees physically. Even when men remarked when meeting in person when we met online that I looked just like my pic-I was put off. Most of them posted old pics. I particularly recall a guy (who I probably would have dated) but he said he was so relieved when he saw me walking across the parking lot that I looked good. He showed up with a belly big enough for triplets. It’s the disconnect between how we perceive ourselves and how others actually perceive us. Even with the huge belly (not seen in pics)- I would have given him a chance e cause he was kind and funny. But it was clear he wasn’t going to measure my datability on the same scale. It’s not a matter of what you’re attracted to. It’s a reality check to what a guy thinks he deserves without it being a double standard. Like other women, I think I’m particularly sensitive to this double standard in the light of personal experience (I have a good friend going through a divorce. She is a gorgeous 60 yo. Athletic, fit, community minded, spiritual, creative, super intelligence, kind and sexual woman who is being cheated on by her alcoholic husband who has a penchant for prostitutes). Why does he do this? His status, wealth and power afford this behavior. Along with the ugly, vomit inducing conduct of our republican nominee and his parade of gross old men on his campaign advising him (Ailes,Stone,Guiliani, Bannon). It’s pretty obvious, at least to me, the gender gap isn’t so equal like some males on this blog claim.Women, 50 and above are apparently pretty invisible by the older males standard.

        11. Caroline

          Buck-I’m sorry I ranted on above. I wasn’t comparing you to our republican nominee. Even if you didn’t mean it; you pretty much threw the majority of women over 50 under the bus as not meeting your standards. I’m absolutely ok with somebody being attracted to what they want but you can’t declare women your age as a whole as being ugly, unfit, and as sexually appealing as what was it? A bowl of wet noodles? Lol. I even laughed at that. I realize it was a weak moment. Everybody’s human. It’s like I always told my son’s growing up. You can be mad about the situation but you can’t lash out at the people. People are human and so are you. Work to make the situation better. This idea was hard for them to swallow at times since most their coaches used yelling and degrading instead of uplifting. 😂

      7. 2.3.7
        Tyrone

        Stacy2

        Yes why would anyone take such a money focused sounding statement seriously. Especially after such gems like:

        ” We don’t NEED each other, for anything at all, but it is especially true for women (we don’t need sex as much and we can have our own children).”

        “The real question is: what does a man bring to the table, when the woman has her own degrees, makes her own money, hires her own household help to “clean and cook and change diapers” – other than his presence? The answer is his dick and a sperm cell to conceive a child.”

        “And to that end, men WANT to be treated like “protectors and providers” (even though they cant protect me from anything and I make more than most).”

        ““The reason I chose not to get involved with men who make less is because I don’t care to support/subsidize them.””

        But clearly you didn’t actually mean any of those things. You just said them because reasons right?

        SMH

      8. 2.3.8
        alex

        Stacy,

        I think more and more women are seeing things the way you do; if a man isn’t a super high earner, why do I need him? The f-buddy relationship might be the future. I already know lots of people in their 20’s/30’s who flit from one of these to the next, and they seem to be very happy. We’ll see how societies develop, but it seems more and more young people are looking at the opposite sex and saying to themselves, whats the point?

  3. 3
    KK

    In the spirit of “all things being equal”, what would the reaction be to four women who are “stepping up” by being actively involved moms? Hmm…

    1. 3.1
      Chance

      It seems to be in vogue for women to maximize the rigors of motherhood and discuss it among each other in a self-congratulatory manner.  Therefore, I would expect to see that in spades around these parts.

      1. 3.1.1
        KK

        On the contrary, we are absolutely expected to and most of us want to be the best moms we can be anyway, but any woman who falls short of that is demonized by everyone; men and women. Yet, we praise divorced men that show up every 2 weeks for their weekend visit. There is an absolute double standard.

        1. Chance

          I suppose we live in totally different worlds, but I can respect your experience.

      2. 3.1.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Chance,

        Moms talk to each other about our failures, how we think and feel we should have done things better or differently, and the regret and guilt we experience because of it.  Heck, I’ve had these conversations with friends who are fathers.  In many, many ways parenting is a shared and similar experience for both moms and dads, whether the feeling experienced is joy, hope, pride, frustration, anger or hurt.

    2. 3.2
      Tyrone

      KK

      Women are constantly praised for single motherhood, whether they fail at it or not. If they don’t do a good job we chalk it up to it being very difficult and the mother did the best she could. It actually started to happen at the very end of the video – the mother raising two kids on $14K a year

      Our society doesn’t demonize that women. Some men might not want to date a single mother for various. Most men and women would respect what she did for the most part. Some men wouldn’t want to date a single mother. And we know that statistically speaking, children fair better in two parent homes. So that makes the success how this woman’s daughter (and potentially her son) even more praise worthy. If she was on Oprah, the audience would be clapping and cheering right now.

      What is it that you feel our society is doing to demonize single mothers?

      1. 3.2.1
        KK

        Tyrone,

        “What is it that you feel our society is doing to demonize single mothers”?

        I didn’t say that. If you re- read what I said, it was about the double standard that exists. If a mom (single, married, divorced), doesn’t take care of her children properly, she is very much demonized in our society. The mom that has a revolving circle of men in and out of her house in front of her children, the mom that doesn’t get her kids to school regularly or on time… pick your bad behavior; doesn’t matter. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be looked down upon. What I am saying is that dads who do the same things don’t get the same kind of negative reactions. And the things we take for granted that moms should do ‘Just because’ are somehow seen as heroic if the dads do those same things. And in the case of divorced parents, moms who have their children all the time, with the exception of two weekends per month (in most cases) aren’t getting any special praise. But the dad who only gets his children twice a month is praised if he actually shows up, feeds the kids, and returns them home safely. I’m aware that custody arrangements aren’t always negotiable. But if we’re going to praise single dads for putting in their two weekends a month, how can we ignore the single moms who are putting in the work the rest of the time, which is the vast majority of the time? Why can’t we acknowledge it’s more difficult to be a full time parent than an every other weekend parent?

        1. Tyrone

          The mom that has a revolving circle of men in and out of her house in front of her children, the mom that doesn’t get her kids to school regularly or on time
          I’ve not noticed a woman being demonized more than a man for doing any of those shitty things. If anything, I hear about women’s irresponsible and/or shitty baby daddies doing these things – as they are calling those men irresponsible and shitty. 
          I’m not saying it shouldn’t be looked down upon. What I am saying is that dads who do the same things don’t get the same kind of negative reactions.
          Sure they do. And if the mother is the custodial parent, that type of bad behavior can be used against him in court. Not that it couldn’t also be used against the female, but there is bias in the court system in favor of mothers.
          And the things we take for granted that moms should do ‘Just because’ are somehow seen as heroic if the dads do those same things.
          I think I see what you are saying here. I think this happens for a few reasons. 1) Traditional gender roles – the female is thought to be (rightly or wrongly) the “better” caregiver, so seeing a man do something “non-traditional” could be praise-worthy 2) More often than not the mother is the custodial parent (rightly or wrongly) – seeing a man in this “non-normal” role could be praise-worthy. 3) Media influence. The same media that supposedly pushes unrealistic beauty expectation on women. If they are doing that, then you could equally say that the portrayal of fathers in shows as dumb, emotionally detached, money providing comic relief is born of the same thing – seeing a man not acting like that could be praise-worthy. 4) Women like to talk a lot of shit on the not so great men that they’ve dated – seeing a man that isn’t lazy, or a deadbeat having to be supported by his high earning wife, or whatever, could be praise-worthy. 5) Single mothers are CONSTANTLY praised. I literally hear someone praising a single mother every single day. Be it an athlete, a contestant on a game show, sitcoms about single moms busting their ass to make ends meet while hilarity ensues. Online articles, blogs, YouTube videos. Take a look around Facebook on Father’s day to see single mother praise in spite of it being FATHER’S DAY. I’m not saying there is necessarily anything wrong with this. But it happens so much, I think that you might be taking the praise for granted and just attributing it to regular behavior.
          Basically it seems praise worthy because it is less common. And I’m not saying that is right. But I don’t think there is a double standard here as you see it, since single mothers are very much praised.
           
          And I fully acknowledge the custodial parent works harder (parenting wise) that a part-time or weekend parent. I think it would be ridiculous to dispute that.

  4. 4
    usagima

    I was told recently by a group of Mothers that I ‘wasn’t allowed’ to call my self a single dad because I didn’t have the kids 100% (I’m lucky enough to have them 50%), and that was ‘disrespectful’ to the amount of effort they put in as 100% parents. After a short discussion enquiring if was my ex ‘allowed’ to call herself a single mother (she can because a ‘mothers bond is never broken’) I left the conversation. I have a well paid, important sounding, job. If you meet me socially I won’t bring it up, Single dad comes out sooner, single because I’m looking, and dad because it’s the best thing that ever happened to me and I am so proud of my role in my kids lives.

    1. 4.1
      Chance

      Pretty unsettling, isn’t it?  And yet, here we are… 25 comments in, and I think Henriette is the only woman to acknowledge that there are plenty of good fathers out there contrary to the stereotype.  Kudos to you and Evan for being great fathers.  It is something that is seldom recognized in this day and age.

      1. 4.1.1
        KK

        Interesting comment, Chance, since I’ve never seen a single comment from you praising women in ANY capacity.

    2. 4.2
      Emily, the original

      usagima,

      You are, in fact, a single father and you were right to leave that conversation. Those women are idiots.

    3. 4.3
      ScottH

      Isn’t the distinction whether you are a full-time single parent vs a single parent?  Why does it matter anyway?  I’m single and a parent but I don’t use any label.  I’m divorced and I have kids with a prescribed custody schedule, period.   Let that group of mothers cackle among themselves about who fits into what category.  I don’t think the partner I’m looking for will think like that.

      1. 4.3.1
        sophia

        Amen to the look for a partner who does not “think like that”- those women are self-promoting “idiots” (sorry but YES) and the use of the word “allowed” would have made me laugh in their faces. Allowed? Excuse me- are you a parent I don’t know about- please say NO! 😉

    4. 4.4
      Emily, the original

      usagima,

      Plus, you define yourself how you want to. Those women don’t get to do that. If you see yourself as a single dad, that’s what you are.

    5. 4.5
      SparklingEmerald

      Those women are idiots.  Single refers to marital status, not weather or not you have full custody.   The title “single parent” can be referring to being divorced, separated, widowed, or never married. They could have full custody, joint custody (which I think is the best way to go unless one parent is neglectful or abusive) visitation, or never even see their kid at all.

      And you are “allowed” to call yourself anything you want.

      Where did you meet these women, and how did this discussion come up, where they tried to dictate to you,  what you are “allowed” to call yourself ?

       

    6. 4.6
      Caroline

      Usagima-I’m sorry some folks have to label everything-it really comes across as petty and keeping score. Those kind of folks will never be happy.  None of those labels work. My ex and I coparent like most families including yours. Quite frankly, it doesn’t matter how much money or time each gives-you are both respectfully co parenting. While one parent will be the custodial parent; the other is still parenting. Divorce/or break up of parental partners is never fair to either parent and especially kids. One has to come to terms with the fact that you both screwed it up and to make the absolute best out of it for your kids. 50/50 custody can work when they’re younger but my kids were too pulled to and from homes so we compromised. I had them most of the school year while he had them one week day; then a three day weekend the next. My ex had them most the summer. Once they were teens and drove; we were much more flexible. Both preferred my house as home base (can you imagine having to live every other week somewhere else yourself?). I personally never considered dating anyone seriously until my kids were grown. My first duty was to be their mom and provide them with the happiest and most secure situation while they were still kids.

    7. 4.7
      GoWiththeFlow

      usagima,

      Wow!  That was incredibly rude and demeaning!

      My adult son is a single dad with majority time custody.  He is both a wonderful nurturer and their secure base in the world.  Single dads are perfectly capable of raising happy, well adjusted kids on their own or in conjunction with the kids’ mother.

      Please know many women, including the right one for you, will admire and respect you for the wonderful father that you are. It’s a true sign of high character.

  5. 5
    Chance

    While anyone is welcome to answer this question, I am specifically reaching out to Adrian, KK, and GWTF on this:  what are your thoughts about usagima’s story in comment #4?  More specifically, what do you think about what the women told him, and do you agree with those women?  If so, why do you agree with them?

    1. 5.1
      KK

      What those women said to Usagima was out of line and unfair, Chance. Now… can you name any instances in which you think women are ever treated unfairly or do you simply come on here to share your feelings about men’s grievances?

      Just because you were the first to acknowledge his story, doesn’t mean that the rest of us don’t see the unfairness in it as well. But when you comment saying, “Pretty unsettling, isn’t it?  And yet, here we are… 25 comments in, and I think Henriette is the only woman to acknowledge that there are plenty of good fathers out there contrary to the stereotype”, does it occur to you how you come across? When you try to bully people into something, you won’t get the response You want. You want every one to acknowledge all the great fathers out there, yet you’ve never said one positive thing about women, as mothers, wives, friends. Nothing. I love the men in my life. I’ve known lots of wonderful fathers and husbands. I have no problem acknowledging that fact, or with men, in general. I do have a problem with your attitude, however. What is your goal here? Have you ever been a husband or father? Are you here doing a service to all those poor, aggrieved men who have been treated unfairly by some terrible women? 

      1. 5.1.1
        Chance

        “Now… can you name any instances in which you think women are ever treated unfairly or do you simply come on here to share your feelings about men’s grievances?”

         

        It’s the latter.  I’ve said here before that, as it relates to situations where women are being mistreated, my silence can be interpreted as agreement with the woman’s side.  Besides, there’s no need for me to comment in those situations because the women here already have it covered.  Everyone in our society recognizes the problem in situations when the woman is being mistreated, and it is discussed all of the time.  When men are mistreated, it isn’t discussed nearly as much.  It’s just part of our society.  That has been reflected here in the comment section.

         

        As to your “bullying” claim, that’s nonsense.  I initially just pointed something out, and then I asked a question.  It’s ridiculous to claim that the reason no one spoke up is because of my approach.  Before my first comment on the topic here, one could hear a pin drop.  I waited until the next day because I knew some of the more manipulative ladies here would try to claim that I jumped the gun “and like, we’re all crazy busy, hello!” (ignoring the fact that there’s never a delay in commenting on a post that fuels their indignation).

        1. KK

          “When men are mistreated, it isn’t discussed nearly as much”.

          False. You choose to see what you want and ignore the rest. Kinda like Shaukaut’s statement to me that you jumped on and reiterated. Except… I absolutely acknowledge men’s issues as well.

          Now, was there anything you wanted to say about women in a positive light? This is the third time I’ve mentioned it… Crickets…

          “Besides, there’s no need for me to comment in those situations because the women here already have it covered”.

          And yet you say it’s not even a possibility that no one else spoke up for Usagina since YOU had already covered it??? Isn’t that just a tad hypocritical of you? I mean, here you are explaining your silence, but when anyone else is silent it couldn’t possibly be the same reason? Interesting double standard for sure.

          “As to your “bullying” claim, that’s nonsense”. 

          Is it? You’ve just made it clear what your goal is.

          “I waited until the next day because I knew some of the more manipulative ladies here would try to claim that I jumped the gun “and like, we’re all crazy busy, hello!” 

          Yet, the one female you praised said exactly that. Lol. So is she praise worthy or one of the more manipulative ladies here???

        2. Chance

          KK,

           

          “False. You choose to see what you want and ignore the rest.”

           

          Explain your position.  I’m all ears.

           

           

          “Now, was there anything you wanted to say about women in a positive light? This is the third time I’ve mentioned it… Crickets…”

           

          You last phrased the question as the following:  “Now… can you name any instances in which you think women are ever treated unfairly or do you simply come on here to share your feelings about men’s grievances?”   I answered your question with the following:  “I’ve said here before that, as it relates to situations where women are being mistreated, my silence can be interpreted as agreement with the woman’s side.”

           

           

          “And yet you say it’s not even a possibility that no one else spoke up for Usagina since YOU had already covered it??? Isn’t that just a tad hypocritical of you? I mean, here you are explaining your silence, but when anyone else is silent it couldn’t possibly be the same reason? Interesting double standard for sure.”

           

          I’m not sure I fully understand the question.  However, I think you might be conflating some things.  I noted that no one commented at all on this thread for pretty much a full day.  I didn’t comment that no one responded to usagima.  I asked everyone what they thought of what the women in his story said to him.  I also asked him what he thought about the fact that no one had commented about the stereotypes of fathers, but I did not ask anyone why they didn’t respond to him.

           

          “Is it? You’ve just made it clear what your goal is.”

           

          Ummm, well, you asked me why I was here, and I said it was share my thoughts about men’s grievances.  If that equates to bullying in your world, then that’s how you choose to see things.

           

           

          “Yet, the one female you praised said exactly that. Lol. So is she praise worthy or one of the more manipulative ladies here???”

           

          She is praiseworthy since she provided a sincere response instead of dismissing my point like some of the other ladies here.

           

          This will be my last response to you because I don’t have the inclination to go back-and-forth in perpetuity.   Bye, now.

           

        3. KK

          Let the records show… Chance here, can’t come up with one positive thing to say about women. Very telling indeed.

          Bye, now.

        4. Callie

          Wait. If silence can be interpreted to mean you are on the side of the people posting or the post in general . . . why on earth did you take issue with the deafening silence about this article at the very beginning? Wouldn’t a deafening silence therefore mean that everyone agreed with the film and with the difficulties men are facing therefore? Wouldn’t it be a positive thing? Or is it only you who is supposed to be given such a consideration? Everyone else when silent is in disagreement?

          (just for the record, I for one didn’t comment for your reason. Because I was thinking, “Yup, these guys are awesome and it’s truly tough for them just as they said. And since they said it and are men who can speak to their experiences far more than I ever could, there’s really nothing more that I can say.”)

        5. Chance

          @Callie, thanks for your comment.  To be clear, my silence can be interpreted as agreement.  However, I don’t think that is the case with the commenters here in general.  When Evan posts something that is consistent with women’s worldview, women are quick to post in agreement.  So, when this reality is paired with the silence here, then yes, it is deafening.

        6. KK

          Got that, Callie? Only HIS silence can be interpreted as agreement. Not yours or mine or anyone else’s. Chance is not only a voice for all men, he is a voice for all women too. It doesn’t matter what you say, because he knows what you really think. Lmao.

    2. 5.2
      Stacy2

      Neither one of them is a “single parent”, clearly. Why would anyone event want to fight for that label is beyond me.

  6. 6
    Marika

    RE @ Emily and related other’s comments about men & sex:

    I was re-watching old episodes of the 90s show Frasier last night, and they were talking about his boss possibly using sex to get what she wanted from him in a pay negotiation. Daphne (another character) said “So what, men use sex to get what they want all the time” and Frasier replied “We’d never do that. Sex IS what we want”.

    Haha.

    I know that’s simplifying things, but if anyone knows the Frasier character, he’s rich, cultured, educated, not some creep. So the fact he was saying it was all the more to the point that often a man’s behaviour is motivated by sex. I think that’s just the way it is. Of course, they can curb it when needed and don’t randomly jump on every woman, but at the end of the day, it’s what they want & they’ll try to get it when they can. I find it really hard to understand as a woman myself, but I can either fight it or accept it, and as Evan says, set healthy boundaries.

    1. 6.1
      Fromkin

      That’s a great line of Frasier’s. And true!

    2. 6.2
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      I find it really hard to understand as a woman myself, but I can either fight it or accept it, and as Evan says, set healthy boundaries.

      I did. I flat out said no. It’s easy to set boundaries with the people you aren’t interested in. It’s the ones you are interested in … well, those boundaries get a little looser sometimes.

  7. 7
    Caroline

    I had to watch the video again. Initially, I was rather unimpressed. I thought they were kinda silly grievances because I certainly don’t believe them to be true. Fortunately,  I was raised in a loving home where both parents put their best into both their marriage and raising their kids😊  after reading the various slanted perspective and embittered responses;  I thought I’d better take a closer look. I even watched a couple more videos. I loved what one if the dads said about being a parent. It was about being there just to love your child and reallyvlearning the meaning of being selfless. I can relate to being very bitter and feeling wronged both emotionally and financially after I divorced. I looked online and most of the fact based articles pretty much said what I learned through time and that is that both genders feel slighted because they cannot see it from the other genders perspective. While I’m sure there are cases where both genders have suffered injustice in divorce; the majority realize they were just being petty as time went on and could look at the situation. I personally knew my ex would most likely not pay the child support. What made me realize how much he loves his kids was when he found his own way to provide for them. Although I only received 8 months of child support for the 7 years until my youngest turned 18; I was amazed how my ex came through by doing things like fixing the dryer or trading/selling some if his possessions to buy a first car for our son. Like most things, divorce is what you make of it. It can be a new, challenging stage of life where you grow and learn to appreciate others or you can stew in your own pity never taking that leap to trust someone again

    1. 7.1
      Chance

      @Caroline, what was causing you to be bitter after your divorce?

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