Why Men Need to Court Women Again

I’ve been a dating coach since 2003.

I’ve been a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women since 2010.

The only reason I focused on that very specific demographic is because they comprised 80% of my audience. I didn’t seek them. They found me, and I catered my offerings to empower them to understand men and make healthier relationship choices.

I get a lot of pushback from women who bristle at what I do. Their main complaint: MEN ARE THE PROBLEM. STOP TELLING ME WHAT I SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY.

My reply is always the same: you’ll have a much greater success by changing your own beliefs, actions and reactions than by trying to change the male gender.

I mean that – but that doesn’t mean that men are off the hook, by any stretch of the imagination. A huge part of my business is simply telling women to avoid men who don’t treat them with proper respect and invest time only in relationship-oriented guys.

You’ll have a much greater success by changing your own beliefs, actions and reactions than by trying to change the male gender.

Does that leave a lot fewer men in the dating pool? Sure does. But there’s no point in trying to convince a man who doesn’t want to get married that he should or trying to convince a guy who thinks you should sleep with him on the first date that he should court you properly. Just throw those fish back in the sea.

Which is why I was heartened to read this blog post from Matt Walsh. In it, he implores men to “man up” and court women properly, with intention.

“If you’re hanging out with a woman and you feel like you might be into her, tell her. Call her on the phone. Take her out on a date. Say the words: “I’d like to take you out.” No ambiguity. Plan the date yourself. Women want you to be decisive. Lose the whole “so waddaya wanna do tonight?” schtick. Take charge. Pick her up at 7. Pay for the meal. Have a conversation with her. Go mini golfing or something. Go somewhere. Open the door for her. Put your phone away. Open up to her. Share your ideas, your dreams, your fears. Get to know her. Pursue her. Pursue her. Invest yourself in the process, as scary and unsure as it may seem. Take a risk, gentlemen. Go out on a limb for once. Be purposeful. Be desirable. Be a man.”

No argument here. If my business was to give advice to men, that’s what I’d be telling them. There is so little competition from men out there that it’s easy to stand out just by being a good guy who takes control, follows through, and does what he says.

Now the reason I don’t post things like this more is because there’s nothing for women to learn from “Yes! Men need to change!” You know what I mean? It may be true, it may be validating, but it’s not useful or transformational.

Your big takeaway from this is simply that you should hold out for a man who does (most of) the right things. If he doesn’t do the right things, he’s not your man.

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Comments:

  1. 31
    Newly Married Woman

    Suppose I were dating a 47 year old divorcee now, what would motivate me to court her like I did my wife when we were in our 20′s?  I can’t think of anything.  Can you?

    Good grief! I wonder if any of those children your wife gave you are girls.  I hope they never know you consider their worth as companions to expire when they get into their 40s. Also, you are saying that if you met your own wife in her 40s, she would not be worth it to you?
    My husband was 49 when we met, I was 51. He courted me with gusto and we both enjoyed every minute of it. He still courts me. It’s a blast! 
    Why on earth would men and women want to miss out on this fun and intimacy? Indeed, children can be got from other means and childcare can be hired. Sex can be hired, too. Why bother with any relationship if you’re going to take all the tingles out of it?
    If you feel an individual woman is entitled and otherwise not fun and wonderful to be around, by all means, move on. Do not settle for an unkind or selfish woman. All men should look for a kind and giving woman rather than lament that all women are “entitled” or “not worth it.”  Acts of courtship are an excellent way to notice if a woman is gracious, fun, kind, and every other quality you want.
     
     
     
     
     

    1. 31.1
      Ciaran

      “Also, you are saying that if you met your own wife in her 40s, she would not be worth it to you?”

      Good question.  The honest answer – if I were still interested in having children, no.  

      Having children was very important to me.  I broke up with one woman before meeting my wife who was in many ways perfectly suited to me and was the love of my life up to that point, because she didn’t want children. 

      What if I were dating now, as I am, with children?  I think I would need and expect a woman to reciprocate in the courtship process, to demonstrate her generosity and kindness.  I do have a suspicion that most women are selfish and self centered regarding their suitors.  I could be wrong – I can only draw conclusions from the little slice of life I observe.  But the comments from women that I read on sites like this one don’t often allay those suspicions.

      1. 31.1.1
        Jenn

        Ciaran,
        You still don’t seem to get it. Dating and relationships are not about tit for tat, they are about reciprocity. It’s all well and good to talk about how we wish things could be, but that does no good when it takes the focus off of how they are. The reason it doesn’t work when a woman starts to take over the man’s role (ie. planning and paying for dates, calling and asking him out, etc.) is because it kills the chase for the man. He no longer has such a high interest level when the woman makes it too easy for the man to get her. Almost every sexual species on the planet is like this. For example, male peacocks must show the females their magnificent plumage and do a little mating dance before they can procreate. Male penguins endlessly comb the beach searching for the perfect pebble to present to their mate before she’ll accept him. Males of all species fight off rival males for mating privileges and even then, they must wait until the female is receptive to their advances before they can have her. That she won’t mate with just anyone proves her value to the male.
        Think about it in terms of getting a great job. You’re really excited to get this job, it looks great and the company has a wonderful reputation. You get called in once, twice, three times for an interview and then they tell you you’re in! In most cases, as a new employee you have to prove to them over time that you’re able and willing to do the job. Most companies will give you 90 days to do just that, but until then, you’re in on strictly a probationary status. But if you put in the hours, do the best job you can to show your capability, and tow the line, at the end of that 90 days, you’re not only given full status as an official employee, but now you get to enjoy all the wonderful benefits you’ve been looking forward to. You get the security of having a wonderful job with a great company, one which you can see yourself staying with for a very long time, and they get to benefit from having you as a star employee. Everybody wins! So please don’t act like men get absolutely nothing out of courting women and women are just sitting back and reaping the reward.

        1. Chance

          Sorry Jenn, I have to disagree again lol.  A lot of guys love it when the woman takes the lead, and it isn’t just the “betas”.  I remember about ten years ago, when a girl that liked me called me up and asked me on a proper date.  She invited me over to her place so she could cook me dinner.  Unfortunately, I didn’t take her up on her offer because I wasn’t attracted to her.  At 22, looks played a bigger role in determining my attraction to a woman than it does now.  If I were single today and she had asked me out, I undoubtedly would have been interested in her. 

        2. Jenn

          Chance,
          I have to disagree with you. Men and women’s nature do not change that much just because of age. We may become more mature, but that doesn’t change basic biological makeup. And you have proven my point exactly – you were flattered that she took the initiative, but that didn’t make you want to go out with her. Even today I’d bet that okay, you might go out with her for a while, but you would be more interested had you had to make the first move.

        3. Chance

          Jenn, it did make me want to go out with her much more than it would have otherwise.  I’m not proving your point, sorry.  I never would have even considered it if she hadn’t done that.  I would date her today, no doubt, if I were single.  I really appreciated her taking on the responsibilities of equality instead of just wanting the rights.  I’d like to think that, since I’m a man, I know a little bit more than you about how men think.  I will say it one last time:  most men do not like many aspects of courting – no matter how much they act like they do.

        4. Jenn

          Chance,
          You said you rejected her because you were not attracted to her. And you might date her for a while, sure, but you wouldn’t marry her. And you may THINK you want a woman to step up and do all the things you would do to court her, but in reality

        5. Jenn

          Chance,
          What people think and how they respond are two different things. You may think that a woman doing all the things a man usually does in courtship would be great. You might actually like all the attention at first. But after a while, you’d start to get bored, because that is what happens when men are not the pursuer. I do know how men are, because I have experienced firsthand (more than once) what it’s like to try to get guys to go out with me, only to have them reject me. It. Does. Not. Work.
           
          Most women don’t like how it is either, but that doesn’t change the fact that letting the man take the lead is what works. Most of us would love it if we could just waltz up to any cute guy of our choosing, tell him we’re attracted to him, ask him out, then ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after. It sure would cut through a lot of the crap, wouldn’t it? But that’s not how it is. No matter how much we might think we’d like it another way.

        6. Ciaran

          Jenn,

          I am very much talking about reciprocity:

          >>  I think I would need and expect a woman to reciprocate in the courtship process, to demonstrate her generosity and kindness.  

          I actually have no problem with the man taking the initiative, and I always did so when I was dating.   But as you point out with your peacock example, that was motivated by the procreative instinct, where the value that the woman brings is clear.  In fact, many features of female attractiveness (which women accentuate with makeup and clothing) are biological markers of fertility.

          But much of the present discussion has been about post-fertility dating.  As I pointed out, the value that a woman brings then isn’t so obvious;  behavior and character become relatively more important. 

          This is where “generosity and kindness” comes in.  A woman does not need to engage in tit-for-tat dating – asking a guy out, going dutch, and the like.  But she does need to demonstrate the behavior and character that would make her a good partner, and capable of reciprocating the effort and value that the man is expected to bring.

        7. Dina Strange

          Right on, Jenn. What a great comment!

      2. 31.1.2
        Evan Marc Katz

        Ciaran, it sounds like you’re trying to combat your perception of women’s selfishness with selfishness. She wants a man to make an effort to court her, your answer is to not make an effort to court her. Sounds a little like trying to make two wrongs into a right. Want a woman to treat you well? Treat her well. Don’t want to treat her well? Don’t expect her to stick around – and if she does, expect that she’s going to be low-self-esteem.

        1. Ciaran

          Evan, I agree that combating selfishness with selfishness is futile.  However, combating selfishness with caution isn’t.  Just as you might advise a woman to steer clear of the players, I would advise men to steer clear of exploitative, self centered women.  

          “Want a woman to treat you well?  Treat her well.”

          My experience shows me that there are plenty of women who will take advantage of a man who treats her well, and much of our culture encourages her to do so.  A prudent man is keenly observant for self centered, entitled, manipulative or exploitative behavior in the women he dates.

           

        2. Dina Strange

          Exactly. Golden words, Evan. Totally agree with you.

          And yes Ciaran, u seem to be having some negative experiences and putting all women under the same generalization. Basically, i agree with Evan and Jenn’s words.

        3. Henriette

          @Ciaran (his post is beneath mine; I couldn’t find a way to reply to it):  Believe it or not, we nice women hate to see men abused by exploitative women.  It is no fun for us to sit on the sidelines and watch good guys be jerked around.  We’d love you to quickly dump the users & losers… and then come & find us! :)  However, refusing to court isn’t an effective way to separate good women from bad ones.
           
          Did you know that a recent study showed that most people on a date have no idea if they’re actually on a date or just “hanging out?”  Lines have become blurred in recent decades and one of the few clues available to us women ~ to gauge if a guy is interested in us as a potential romantic/sexual partner or just as a buddy ~ is by whether or not he uses courting behaviour.  Many non-courting men are friend-zoned by lovely women who genuinely misunderstand their intentions.   And many women insist on going Dutch on a first date to let a guy know she has no interest in a second date.  
           

      3. 31.1.3
        SparklingEmerald

        Ciaran & Chance –
        It seems you to are very resentful of the courtship and look for tit-for-tat from the git go.  Ciaran, you like my list of ways that women reciprocate, and I didn’t just pull that out of my left ear.  Those are things I do when I like or love a man, and things I have observed in the marriages and relationships of friends, family members, acquaintances. So women DO reciprocate, but sometimes it goes unrecognized and/or unappreciated.  (and yes, I know men are often not appreciated for what THEY do, and I don’t condone that either) 
        I think were we disagree is who goes first.  We can’t both go first, only one person can lead.  For most women, they are more comfy with the man leading, and I think you two are the exception.  Most men, when they see a woman they want, they WILL pursue, chase, court etc., and ENJOY it.
        Women DO reciprocate, but there is a lag in that reciprocation.  Don’t expect to go dutch treat, tit for tat, fifty-fifty from day one.  Take another look at the list I came up with, of ways women CAN and DO reciprocate.  Would any of that be appropriate on dates 1 or 2 ?
        Are you going to bring a basket of your clothes that need mending to a first date and say, “Here, I’ll pay for the date, you can sew a button on this shirt and hem these pants up an inch”.  ?  Are you going to suggest that she cook you dinner for a first date ?   Are you going to bring your baby grandson along and ask her to watch him right after the date, while you run out on some other errand ?   Didn’t think so.
        If the relationship grows and flourishes, a woman of value will happily respond to your generosity in her own unique feminine way.  Does it really matter after 10 or 20 years of marriage that you paid for & planned everything on dates 1 through 5 ?  Don’t you think if you look at EVERYTHING women do for their men over time, that it fairly evens out ?
        If after 2 or 3 months a woman makes absolutely ZERO moves of reciprocity, then dump her sorry little princess patooty, and look for a generous, kind hearted, loving woman.  But make sure you are looking at EVERYTHING a gal does.  Don’t look for tit for tat reciprocity.  Look for her to do DIFFERENT things for you that reflect her femininity and her responsiveness to you.
        If she bakes you cookies for the movies, don’t say “whoopy do”  It’s not just the couple of dollars she spent for flour and cocoa, it’s a labor of LOVE (or like).  Does she offer the free movie passes that she “just happens” to have ?  Maybe those tickets  were given to her, but she is still choosing to share them with you.  Did she make you dinner ?  She paid for the groceries AND again a labor of LOVE (or like).  Did you mention that you like a particular type of wine, or that mashed potatoes made from scratch were a favorite of yours, and that’s what ends up being part of the meal she made ?  That’s another gift.  Not just the money, not just the labor, but her HEART !  She listened, she took note,  she delivered.  She wants to make you happy in her OWN FEMININE way.
        Stop looking for a woman to reciprocate back EXACTLY measure for measure, tit for tat.  That’s no more romantic than making change for a dollar.  You give a dollar, you get back 4 quarters.  BFD.  You really don’t have anything you didn’t have before.  Give your best masculine energy to a woman and appreciate her feminine reciprocity.  Don’t expect tit for tat. Let her give back something DIFFERENT. 
        For most people, traditional courtship WORKS eventually. (lots of failure along the way, but it only takes ONE)
        And by the way, to make a long story even longer, a man I dated last summer was very chivalrous, opening doors, etc., and he wouldn’t have it any other way.  We were walking across the parking lot arm in arm, and he opened the car door for me.  Another man in the parking lot observed that, and shouted, “I WANT TO BE IN LOVE LIKE THAT !!!!! I WANT A WOMAN WHO LET’S ME OPEN HER DOOR FOR HER !!!! WHERE DID YOU MEET HER”.  (we hadn’t said the “L” word to each other, but I thought it was cute that he assumed we were in love)
        So we told him we met on match.com.  He just kept saying that he wanted a woman to treat like a lady, open doors, take out, etc.  And I don’t think he is alone.
         
        Gender lines got blurred a generation or two ago.  I think there are many, many men and women who really would enjoy going back to old fashioned courtship again.  I think very few men are really on board with the whole androgynous, genderless, gray blur that passes for relationships these days.

        1. RacheL

          to Sparkling Emerald (and cool username, in real life emeralds dont really sparkle rite?), after reading yours + julia’s posts, im gonna learn cooking. i envy so much that you sound so good at cooking & i agree its a great way to show guys u care!!
           
          ive really never even fried an egg ever. havent cooked or baked. becus my parents were alwaes busy when i was small, they hired sum1 to take care of the kids & cook. so i never learnt. now im older & see its a key skill! gonna take classes! ignore the commentors who belittle your effort becus i think most guys really appreciate that! ;)
           

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Rachel – I am glad that Julia & I have inspired you to learn to cook.  It’s a great skill to have, not just for “man hunting”, but a good life skill that every adult should have.  But I do think it gives women an edge.  Just like the idea of a man paying for dates is very socially ingrained, and is therefore effective (as opposed to “fair” or “equal”)  women making a nice home cooked meal for a man is socially ingrained as a way to make a man feel loved and appreciated.   So much so, that knowing how to cook is effective.  Plus, so many women turn up their nose at the idea of cooking for a man, that if you make a man a grilled cheese sandwich and open up a can of  Tomato Soup, he’ll probably think you are a Diva !
          But even more importantly, man or no man, there are so many advantages to learning how to make your own meals. You have to eat every day.  There is so much junk in processed foods, and you don’t really know what you are getting when you order from a restaurant.  It’s usually cheaper and healthier to make most of your meals.  
          Have fun in class !  (You might even meet a cute guy !  )  The great thing about cooking, it’s a fun thing to do FOR a man, or if a man enjoys cooking as well, it’s a fun thing to do WITH a man.

        3. RacheL

          SparklingEmerald, thanks i think i will have fun in cooking class. dont worry im not learning cooking just to impress men! it was a skill id thought of learning for many years since becoming a adult, just feared the appliances such as stoves and ovens becus of the heat! ;) i was scared of burning down the kitchen, lol.
           
          your right that its unhealthy to alwaes eat processed food. and yes its so nice to be able to cook dinner or make pumpkin pie & brownies! one of the best waes for a woman to show her care to guys (or to any of her children)! its amazed me how iv met kwite a few guys who remember fondly a signature dish their mothers made!
           
          next task: learning how to drive. haha!

        4. Garret

          @Rachel

          dont worry im not learning cooking just to impress men!

          But there is nothing wrong with it being your primary reason for learning. The truth is, many things that men set out to learn, their primary reason for learning is to impress women. Playing a guitar for instance. It may not be the only reason, but impressing the girls ranks at the very top for most young men setting out to learn. I heard a saying once that went something like this, “If not for women, men wouldn’t build bridges and tall buildings.” In other words, the idea is that most of what men do is to impress women.

          BTW, I like what Sparkling Emerald said in these posts. I think they are some of the best comments on this site.

          I think she is right that most men would prefer a move away from this genderless gray area we are in. And I think a lot of that motivation for men is because quite frankly, the last 30 or 40 years has mostly just taken from men. In short, many changes, and men had no say in it and it affects their life.

          For instance, today it’s almost not an option for women to stay home. Because most women now work, prices reflect that. But look at the result of the move from a man’s perspective. At one time, men could support a family on just his income. Now, to live a similar life, most couples have to have a working wife. Add in that most people no longer work a 40 hour week, and most people have longer commute times, and the simple fact is, we don’t live as good of a life as people used to. Instead of working 40 hours and then having the rest of the time to himself, other than a few “manly chores,” men now have to work 50 or 60 hours a week, or more, then they have to come home and help do much of what a housewife used to do. He may have to come home and start dinner because he might get home a half hour early, or while he goes straight home, she stops to pick up the kids. He may also have to do laundry, ironing, cleaning, helping with the baby, etc… All things he did not have to do because that was what the wife did while he worked. I still remember my mom trying to time having dinner ready the moment my dad walked in. My mom was a dying breed. Most women today don’t have the luxury of choosing to be a stay at home mom.

          My problem is that this lack of ability to get out and have a career was used to label men as nothing but takers. It was this whole independence thing, and many older women divorced husbands claiming that they were never able to be themselves. Well, now women can have their career, and men now have to work harder than ever, since they still have to get out there and work, and now have to do half of what women used to do as stay at home wives. And still, older women divorce, saying that they couldn’t be themselves. Yeah grandpa is idolized as a great guy, and yet it is our generation that has to work harder than his did. Do we even get a thank you? Pfffft.

          This is why I have no desire to get married. See, I fully understand that to be in a relationship, I have to give up some of my independence. Frankly, I have to give up a lot of my independence to be in a relationship. I have to give of myself. It costs me time, effort, money, emotions, etc., to be in a relationship, and it turns my stomach to see women constantly acting like it is only they who give of themselves. Men aren’t stupid. We pay more attention than we let on. We see how it is women who constantly act like this. We here the “Independence Day,” songs, and see the articles on the cover of Cosmo in the grocery store, etc… I think men are sick of it. I think men are sick and tired of it more than you will ever know. I think what we see today, even by comments from men on this board is push back. I’m sure you have felt the resentment.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Hey Garret, seriously: why are you on a site that give long-term relationship advice to women if you have no interest in getting married? Just like arguing with strangers? I would think it would be like being a Catholic on an atheist blog. I could care less whether you get married or reproduce, but why don’t you let the people who want to do it live in peace?

        6. marymary

          Rachel
          I can cook. Btw, my father did all the cooking so I’ve never believed that women should do it.  But he did teach me. While men like it, only two of them  expected it. I found they took it for granted and seemed to resent if if I didn’t do it. Current boyfriend will cook occasionally, sometimes gets in a takeaway so we don’t have to cook.  
          it’s not cooking that’s the problem really, it’s the menu planning and shopping on top of a full week at work plus commuting.  Of course, it’s great to be able to cook, like sewing, or knowing how to unblock a sink, or dress a wound.
          I think it’s made no difference to my success or otherwise with men.  
           

        7. Garret

          Easy answer. I like reading your articles because for the most part, I see a lot of truth in what you write. I can’t say that I agree with every single thing you write, but I like reading your articles. And I like responding to some comments. I skim through them and some catch my eye. Who knows, maybe some woman will be so awesome that she makes me change my mind. She will have to be very incredible though. I’m not holding my breath.

        8. SparklingEmerald

          Garret at 31.something or other dot, dot, dot said
          “This is why I have no desire to get married. See, I fully understand that to be in a relationship, I have to give up some of my independence. Frankly, I have to give up a lot of my independence to be in a relationship. I have to give of myself. It costs me time, effort, money, emotions, etc., to be in a relationship, and it turns my stomach to see women constantly acting like it is only they who give of themselves”
          ————————-
          Garrett – I don’t know how old you are, but if you are prime marrying age, may I gently ask you to please consider if it’s marriage you are rejecting or the fear of getting into a bad marriage that’s driving this decision ?  (I know you didn’t ask for my opinion, so if you don’t want it feel free to skip this post)
           You are on a blog for people (mostly women, but men come here too and occasionally ask EMK for advice) who want marriage and children.  Are you really here to tell us we are nuts for wanting that, or does the gentleman protest too much ?   If you think that marriage/children is something you might EVENTUALLY want, you might want to start re-considering your stance now.  Women have a very definite biological time clock.  Men however, while they can reproduce until they draw their last breath, have a secondary biological time clock – – finding a woman young enough and fertile enough who is willing to marry and have children with them.
          ————————–
          I can’t speak for or judge everyone who finds themselves “of a certain age”, unmarried, childless, looking for love and unable to find it.  Perhaps it is what they always wanted, but just never met the one.  Maybe in their younger years they disdained love/marriage/children and now they have changed their minds.  But changing your mind in late life is not the most effective strategy.  People in your age range might be mostly married.  Or married and divorced with young children and a hysterectemy/vasectemy.  Or still hard core anti-marriage/anti children. Or bitter and jaded from years of an unsuccessful love life. Younger women will mostly be dis-interested.
          As far as giving up your independence, that’s what BOTH people in a marriage must do.  If you have found the right person, you will be happier about what you have gained than what you gave up.  In fact, you might not even think you gave up anything !   I LOVED Julia’s comment about her and her guy, they BOTH think they dated up.  I think that’s the best thing, two people find each other, they both think they are the lucky one, no one thinks they settled, no one thinks they gave up anything, they both think they have gained the world, and  no one has the “upper hand”.
          —————
          As far as the women who “turn your stomach”, well don’t waste a minute of your time on them.  If the word “Thank you” isn’t in her vocabulary, dump her !  If she’s above being a “cheap date”  and refuses that low cost or no cost, low key first meet and greet DUMP HER !  If she spends the date complaining about how awful men are, DUMP HER.  If she NEVER picks up when you call, and routinely takes 24 hours or more to return your texts and calls, DUMP HER.  If she’s always mysteriously “busy”,  and can’t make time for you because she’s working/ volunteering/partying with friends/walking her dog/making funeral arrangements for her dead pet mouse/washing her hair/going out of town,   DUMP HER.  If she flakes out on dates at the last minute DUMP HER !  If she allows you to pay for every date, set up her computer and mow her lawn, but won’t even bring you a cold drink when you are sweating you a$$ off pulling her weeds, DUMP HER !!!!   That’s the advice EMK gives to us women, and when the occasional man  asks, he gets the EXACT SAME ADVICE.  Once you dump the high maintenance princesses, the bitter man haters, the too busy for a relationship women, and the female players (yes, players come in both genders), and the selfish takers all that’s left are the nice girls.  
          ————————–
          I can understand not wanting to give up your independence for any of the women on the above mentioned list.  But do you want to pass on a relationship/marriage/family with a nice girl ?  All because you were afraid of getting involved with a not-so-nice girl ?  Are you going to let all the “mean girls” kill your chances of a happy relationship with a nice girl ?
          ————
          If you are absolutely sure you never want marriage and kids, then fine, but if there’s a tiny part of you that thinks you might, then please re-consider.   Do you really want to be that 40 or 50 something year old man who now wants a family, but is struggling to find a woman young enough, fertile enough and willing enough to do so ?
          —————-
          BTW, I was one of those people who disdained marriage and children in my younger days.  I drove off good men with my attitude.  In my 20’s, I seemed to meet men who were dating for a wife and mother of their children, and my obvious dis-interest in any of that drove them off.  (My first serious boyfriend was considerably older than me, and wanted marriage and children and that was one of many factors that caused us to split.  But I was too young for marriage at that point, so it’s probably a good thing) 
          I was so anti-motherhood (for myself, not others) that I married a man who had a vasectemy when I was 26.  (He was divorced with a child)  Luckily that “starter marriage” was really a non-starter and we split up shortly after the wedding.    
          _______________
          I finally came to my senses in my late 20’s and realized that marriage and motherhood WITH THE RIGHT PERSON would actually be a wonderful thing, and fear of getting “trapped” in a bad marriage was the REAL reason for not wanting children, not dislike for children, and not a dislike for all the hard work and responsibilities that go with parenting.  Pure fear of marrying the wrong person, having their kid, and then being “stuck” in a really sucky marriage, was the only reason behind my attitude.  And an invalid reason at that.
          So, EMK was just a kid when I was at my prime marrying age, and there was no internet, but somehow I figured out on my own, his solution,  was just to dump the users, abusers or anyone who wouldn’t be a good match for me for whatever reason.  Some of my girlfriends thought I was nuts, one even said that I was “spitting out men like a Pez Candy Dispenser”  but I just said, I’m dating for a husband and father of my children now, there’s no point wasting anytime on anything less.  Even then, it wasn’t easy.  Although I was still fairly young (27) and looked even younger  all those years of anti-marriage/anti-motherhood ingrained bad habits in me, so men weren’t exactly lining up to propose when I finally was up for it.  Luckily, I did meet and marry a man who was dating for a wife & mother of his children, and we had one great kid, and were very happy for about 10 years (married for over 20 :(  )  While I am sad that the marriage ultimately didn’t work out, I am glad that I didn’t miss out on motherhood.  It’s hard enough being 59 and alone again (but I am getting used to it and can find things to enjoy in solitude)  , but if I had missed out on motherhood because of my early fears of it,  THAT would make my current single state unbearable.  
          ________
          Still, I can’t help but think that if I wasn’t so late coming to the “I want a a family” party, my life would not have been on a trajectory that left me alone at 59.  Well, not completely alone, I still have my son, I have my friends, but  I am alone in the sense of not being coupled up.
          _________
          Sorry this post is so long, but when I see these “red pillers” and “extreme feminazi’s” coming to this board and spreading their “I don’t need a man/woman” or their “All men/women are worthless” poison I just feel compelled to say something.  
          —————-
          It’s not ALL women and it’s not ALL men, and besides, it only takes ONE.  It’s too late for me, I tattooed that “I don’t want a man or his baby” attitude on my heart at a very young age, and even after I had that tattoo removed, it left an ugly scar. 
          —————–
          I just hope anyone reading this will re-think their attitude for their own sake.  And if not for their own sake, then for the sake of those who need a glimmer of hope.  Stop coming on to a blog for women (and men) who want love/marriage/family and trying to convince us that the opposite sex is worthless, that the only women worth marrying must be mail ordered from a foreign country, or that the very normal desire for children makes someone a “breeder”  a “womb digger” or a woman looking for a “sperm donor”.
          ——-
          And if you are having trouble shaking your cynical attitude towards love, but would like to, then buy EMK’s  “Believe in Love” If you can lose the negativity soon enough, it might not leave a permanent scar.

           
           
           

        9. Evan Marc Katz

          Thank you, SE. I agree wholeheartedly. I’m glad to hear my book made an impact.

        10. RacheL

          hi Garret! i actually agree its ok if a woman’s main reason to learn cooking is for impressing or to attract men. we all like to have some attractive points rite? but a big problem i have with this thinking is, wat if enuff other people already like u? im not some hot babe, but im sweet enuff that some guys like me, so by that logic, maybe i dont have to learn to cook? or shouldnt earn other useful skills? i noe its not what u saed, but some people will really become so unbalanced in their focuses…and then some people with this thinking totally stop once they get married. becus they did good things just to ‘catch’ a good partner. 
           
          yes i agree many of us dont like ‘genderless gray area’ in dating. but there are many masculine men and feminine women out there still! i had my 4th date with a guy and he opens car doors, he pays (but i choose cheap places now), he asks me out, and all that. (ok 4th date and has not asked me to be his girlfriend yet, but i will wait 1 or 2 more dates…). similarly,  there are nice-hearted traditional woman out there for u to date, Garret, if u want. good luck!

        11. RacheL

          hi Marymary! i agree theres lots of time needed in cooking, that can get tiring. (exactly why my mother needed to hire help, her work was so busy!)
           
          like i clarified to S.E. and Garret, its not that i wanna learn it mainly to impress guys. (sum1 told me this joke–>anyone who says the wae to a mans heart is thru his stomach, is aiming TOO HIGH. ahaha) but its such a nice sweet wae to show appreciation, to not make guys feel like their being used! ^^ and ok also i wanna have that experience of blushing with pride as people admire my cookies, lol!

        12. Sp@rklingEmerald

          Hi again Rachel – Sorry if you thought that earlier I implied that the only reason you were taking cooking classes was  to impress men.  I just wanted to let you know ALL the reasons I like it. 
          Good luck on the learning to drive thing too.  I left home at 18, but didn’t get my license until I was 20 and didn’t get a car until I was 21 or 22.  Believe me, unless you live in NYC,  life is much easier when you have that driver’s license !
           

        13. Julia

          @Rachel

          I taught myself to cook, my mom was a decent cook, I am much better than she is. I really loved food so understanding it better and creating satisfying, healthy, delicious meals is an extension. I loathe cleaning but when I get home from work, cooking gives me much needed relaxation. Chopping has got to be one of life’s most soothing tasks as far as I am concerned. The guy who has chosen me get all the benefits and he knows it. Plus he cleans at the end! SCORE! 

        14. RacheL

          hi SparklingEmerald, getting your license at 20 is not late i think. im significantly past 20 already, lol!
           
          hi Julia, that arrangement with your bf sounds great! and wow u actually -like- cooking, not just the final product… :) i think u and SparklingEmerald are inspirations!

      4. 31.1.4
        Isa

        Hm, I wouldn’t say you are entirely off base.  Courting (in the traditional sense with heavy parental involvement) only works with quite young women.  The older women get, the less need there is for male involvement in a financial capacity, so the traditional man paying for every little thing doesn’t apply.  That was of course because women didn’t *earn* any money back then.
         
        I can only base opinions off my own experience, but it seems that older (40+) women who don’t have/want kids like a much lower investment quota for their male suitors.  Also, the older women get the more they don’t want men to spend all kinds of money on them as they feel obligated to reciprocate.  Or perhaps have had the “forgot my wallet” moment happen too many times.
         
        Perhaps it’s simply maturity, the tit for tat of exactly who paid for what which seems so important when you are in your 20s, 30s isn’t really a factor anymore.  I know as I’ve aged that’s rather how I feel, I’d rather give without counting the cost.  Granted, I am cheap so it may involve coupons and blue plate specials, but my man appreciates thrift :P

      5. 31.1.5
        SparklingEmerald

        Somewhere in this thread Cirain said  “In my first comment I criticized women for being entitled by expecting courting behavior despite their inability or unwillingness to reciprocate.”

        And I think that strawman argument is what is causing all this back and forth.  Who said women should NEVER reciprocate ?  Not Evan, not anyone.  We are talking about men taking the LEAD, not men doing it ALL.  You liked my list of ways women can and DO reciprocate,  but somehow you managed to twist it into an argument against something Evan never said.  The reason I came up with my list is NOT to scold women that should be reciprocating but to give EXAMPLES of how women can and DO reciprocate.  Often these acts of reciprocation go un- noticed or are dismissed with a “Whoopty-Do”  (yes, and I know many men whose efforts aren’t appreciated, and I think that’s wrong also, and my advice in those cases is the same as EMK’s advice to women, dump their sorry little spoiled princess a$$.)
        This is a discussion about modern day lack of courting behavior.  NO one said that women should NEVER reciprocate.  Why do you keep bringing up that strawman argument ?  Who said women should expect a life of pampered service without lifting a finger or contributing in any way ?
        All we are saying is that the man should LEAD (and women should graciously follow, and be responsive and receptive in a kind FEMININE way)  You can’t have two leaders, you can’t have both partners in the driver’s seat.   Only ONE person can get things started.
        The day I call a man up, ask him out, ask him to be my boyfriend, say “I love you” first, and buy him a diamond and propose marriage is the day I expect him to wear a dress and some nice heels, because if I’m going to have to “man up” in the dating world, then he better act like a lady !
        This reminds me of the argument about dating younger or older.  Some women vigorosly argue that they will ONLY date younger men (men past 35 are to old, blah, blah, blah)  and they get pi$$ed that most men only want to date younger.  Well guess what ?  Just like BOTH partners can’t lead, both partners can’t be younger  either. 
        As for me, I try to stick to my approx age group (don’t really look at age, just the person, ) but these “modern” men who want to be courted, well, I suppose there’s a pot for every lid, and they can sit back and wait for a woman to call them out and ask them out for a proper date.  But as Chance pointed out in his story of being asked out for a date,  most likely the man won’t be attracted to her. 

  2. 32
    Julia

    My boyfriend also courted me. We met 7 months ago today. H asked me out, just 5 days later asked me to be exclusive, told me he loved me soon after, take me away for a romantic trip at the end of the first month and asked me to move in with him. The first couple of months we went out a ton but I reciprocated quite a bit. He is a vegetarian and I have become quite an amazing vegetarian cook, he says he’s never ate so good in his life, in fact we just had a mushroom provencal frittata for breakfast. Now that we live together we split the costs of dates pretty much but he still takes me out on proper dates and pays a few times a month.

    We both live in a much bigger home in an upscale neighborhood, he pays 2/3 of the rent because he runs his business from our home, we go on small trips every couple of months and just booked our first big vacation in September. For the record, both of us are feminist and don’t subscribe to the traditional gender roles. We appreciate one another and get along well. If he just dealt with courting to get me, he is a very good liar but I suspect he’s enjoyed every moment of our relationship so far. 

    1. 32.1
      Chance

      “For the record, both of us are feminist and don’t subscribe to the traditional gender roles.”



      Based on what you’ve written in your comment, it sounds like he is adhering to the traditional male gender role quite rigidly.  However, you may cook most of the time and do the majority of the cleaning.  In that case, the arrangement sounds like it might be equitable.

      1. 32.1.1
        Julia

        I cook, we split cleaning. We split bill,groceries and most dates. When we marry and have a child, I will continue to work.

        That’s not really traditional in the actual traditional sense.

    1. 33.1
      Nathan

      What I hear a lot of women seeking in this conversation is that a man demonstrate he is invested in treating a women well over the long haul, and that he cares enough to treat her in the way she wants him to. But what men like Chance and others are really pointing to is the fact that in the beginning, you’re usually strangers. Which means any gestures are more generic, and/or are coming from that initial attraction phase.

      Some of you are putting so much stock into exactly how a man acts in the first weeks and months. But how much of any given guy’s courtship is about “winning” the abstract you he thinks you are, as opposed to some genuine sense of care and desire for you as a whole person? How much do you really know about each other after 5 or 10 dates? How much of the attraction is mostly about chemistry, and further, chemistry created in part by the courtship process itself? In the beginning, are you attracted to the whole man, or more the way’s courting you?

      People put some much damned energy into what they want to happen in the first few months of a possible relationship, which is understandable in an era of diverse approaches and conflicting expectations. But how many dating situations move past that period, regardless of how “perfect” someone looked in the beginning? In my experience, that courtship energy and action is a lot more important and demonstrative of how much you care much further into a relationship. The fact that I hold doors open, carry heavy packages from the car, make handmade cards, and cook for my girlfriend means much more now than it did in the early days. Because she knows it’s motivated from my love and care for her as a whole person, not a chemistry-induced story.

      1. 33.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        You’re right that it’s for show in the beginning, Nathan. But it’s an important show. Men who think that it’s either unfair, retro, stupid, or unnecessary to call, plan, and pay at the beginning are going to have a lot harder time connecting with women. And for what? To be “right”? Suck it up. Court her. If she feels you’re taking her seriously as a relationship candidate, you’re more likely to get into a relationship than if you lean back, eschew all gender roles, and expect her to call and pay for you. This is as much of a non-argument as the women who say that men ‘shouldn’t’ have sex if they’re not interested in a commitment.

        1. Chance

          I think a more pragmatic approach would lead us to some sort of middle ground between what you appear to be advocating/what some your clients seem to think that they deserve and not courting at all.  For the record, I’ve always courted because I know it serves me well to do so.  The initiating, planning, following up, etc. isn’t really a big deal.  You are correct that any guy who is opposed to these things should suck it up because the benefits derived from these actions outweigh the effort.  That said, the part of courtship that can be harmful relates to who pays.

          When I was dating, I would pay for the first handful of dates, and if the girl didn’t offer by then, I would just let her go.  I was fully prepared to forego many dating prospects as a result of this.  However, it has served me well because there are enough women out there who do get it, who aren’t selfish, and who don’t have a brazen sense of entitlement that I’ve been satisfied with my results.  I would advise any man to do the same, and I believe you have provided advice along the same lines somewhere else on here.  I would venture to say that most women who don’t offer to pay after the first 5-6 dates aren’t likely to see you as a financial partner in a relationship as opposed to someone who should be providing for her.  So unless a man is looking to provide and/or fix prior financial baggage for a woman, I would advise against continuing to pursue these types of women.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          I agree. And as a coach for women, I routinely tell them to do the “fake” reach to show you that you don’t take them for granted, and insist on doing something in return sometime within that 5-6 date window as well. However, most of the negative posters on this thread seem to maintain that women don’t deserve to be courted (especially if they’re over 40) and that because of this, they shouldn’t have to step up to make an initial effort.

        3. Shaukat

          I think Nathan makes some very good points, and I think Ciaran actually had the right idea before his argument devloved into a tirade about the primordial instinctual drive that conditions male courting, a notion based on the discredited hypotheses of evolutionary psychology.
           
          I certainly agree that in the early stages of dating men should court women by initiating the dates, planning, calling/texting, etc. However, the blogpost which started this discussion specifically stated that if a man is interested in a woman he should let her know by taking her out for dinner and “paying for the meal.” This is terrible advice for a number of reasons. First, as a number of participants have pointed out, in the early stages of dating there is no way of knowing whether the courtship will develop into a relationship. The woman may be dating more than one man at a time (which is a perfectlly acceptable practice of course, for men and women), or she may decide there is no chemistry, or that they don’t have enough in common, etc. When I was in my mid-20s (I’m in my early thirties now) I would often take a girl to dinner on the first date and then never see her again. I certainly didn’t feel more like a “man” because she allowed me to spend $100+ on her and then politiely thanked me for the meal, only to disappear. Several years ago I remember I went on a first date with an attractive girl, and at the end of the night, after several glasses of wine, I pulled out my wallet to settle the bill and she grabbed my hands and insisted that she pay for half because it was the first date and I shouldn’t be obligated to pay for her drinks when I might not even call her again. To this day, I felt that was the sexiest gesture any woman has ever made on a first  date, and in my opinion it revelaed strong character. I don’t expect that to happen often, because it’s not the norm, but it does illustrate that most men are not turned off by women who are empathetic when it comes to the dating process and who initiate a little themselves in the early phases.
           
          More importantly however, and contrary to what’s said in the blog post, I do not believe this type of activity is even effective. I’m not a big subscriber of the PUA community, but something I once read by David Deangelo resonated with me. He stated (and I’m paraphrasing) that when you buy an attractive woman dinners or lavish her with gifts early in the dating process, what you are actually communicating to her is that you are insecure and you don’t feel that she would like you unless you spend money on her. After all, as others have said, men court women because they’re expected to do so, not because they want to. Thus, even though women may say that they want men to court them and buy them meals early on, on an instinctual, gut level such behavior may signal to them that the man in question has nothing else to offer in terms of personality traits, humor, creativity, intelligence, genuine affection, etc, and therefore is trying to manipulate her feelings by way of dinners and gifts. This is why I also disagree with EMK and another poster who stated that the only thing men have to do to stand out from the crowd is to simply follow through with dates and pay in the early stages. I’ve been burned enough by attractive women in the early stages of courtship to know that buying them dinners will not make you stand out from the majority of suitors-contrary to what other have said, there is no shortage of men who are willing to chase attractive women and buy them expensive dinners and gifts in the hopes that such behavior will generate attraction. But it tends to have the opposite effect.
           
           
           

        4. Morpheus

          Men who think that it’s either unfair, retro, stupid, or unnecessary to call, plan, and pay at the beginning are going to have a lot harder time connecting with women.
          Evan,
          As a purely pragmatic manner, I think you are incorrect.  Essentially, boiled down to the essence, “courting” is essentially running beta comfort game.  Nothing necessarily wrong with that.  I’m sure the success rate is higher than 0%.
          But due to the changes women have experienced in the last 50 years, primarily that of economic independance, the value of beta comfort and “courting” is severely diminished compared to the attraction/chemistry traits.  A man is better served maximizing his attraction traits…i.e. get more fit and muscular, be more successful, dress better, because more socially skillful, learn effective communication rather than ignore those and simply dial up opening doors and paying for dinner.  Height is one that isn’t changeable, but even with that a guy can wear 2-3 inch platform shoes.
          Look, I’ll be the first to shout from the rooftops that men should “court” women when I start hearing consistent reports from average, OK looking guys who are just run of the mill dudes without any charisma, that the “courting” process is resulting in consistent 2nd, 3rd, 4th dates, and quickly leading to a relationship.  In the meantime, while tall handsome well built successful charismatic guys continue to have women throw themselves at them, it makes more sense for a guy to focus on improving there where possible, but if that is not possible, than sure “courting” is the way to go.
          As another point, in this day and age, when women outperform men academically, and have equal if not superior career success, and are strong, independent women who make their own money, its hard to argue that the initial upfront cost of dating should be entirely absorbed by men.  I am happily married, but if I were single, I would immediately filter out any woman who expected me to pay entirely for the first 3 dates….essentially having no “skin in the game” so to speak.
          I think the distinction between “high” self-esteem women and “low” self-esteem women in terms of their dating expectations is mostly incorrect.  But it is a moot point, many of the “high” self-esteem women as you define will continue to find themselves single month after month year after year wondering why.  At the end of the day, the “market” clears at the price it does, and it clears where both parties feel like they are getting a fair exchange of value.  Many men are dropping out of the dating market entirely because they are convinced the value they hope to receive cannot possible match the investment they are expected to put up.  Might not be pleasant to hear, but that is the truth.  Carry on.
           
           
           
           

        5. Isa

          @Shaukat
          $100 on a meal???  Wow!  I dearly hope the food was good enough to make up for the lack in company…  The advice I give to male friends who have this very dilemma, is that if a girl likes you she will go to McDonalds.  Or a park.  Or a Denny’s parking lot (ok, perhaps a bit too far). 
           
          The most important is something interesting, so live outdoor music, parks with food trucks, art exhibits, hiking, really whatever that could be interesting for about an hour or two with a per head of $0 to $10.  You can step it up in price as you choose, but there’s no sense in wasting thousands of dollars on girls that just wanted a free meal.

        6. Ciaran

          @Evan,

          “However, most of the negative posters on this thread seem to maintain that women don’t deserve to be courted (especially if they’re over 40) and that because of this, they shouldn’t have to step up to make an initial effort.”

           It’s that comprehension thing again, Evan.  Try reading what you just wrote, then reading what I or the other commenters wrote, and see if they’re the same, or if you are grossly distorting the message.   In my opinion, it’s the latter. 

           My point with regard to women over 40 is that they no longer bring the obvious value of fertility to the table, so they need to demonstrate some other value instead.  To expect a 40 year old woman to command the same courting attention as a 20 year old woman without some compensatory change in behavior is foolish.  If the value of an older woman lies in her generosity and kindness, in her experience and skill and lived wisdom, she needs to make those things evident.  Because unlike the physical markers for fertility, those things are not evident unless they are demonstrated.

           

        7. Nathan

          In my mid to late 20s, I believed that I had to act a certain way in order to be respected as a man by women, get their attention, and ultimately win one of them over. A lot of that story was based on what I get the sense Evan and a few of the women are pointing to when they say “traditional courtship.” It was precisely when I stopped believing that, and started developing confidence in all the other things I have to offer in a relationship that I both increased my overall likability amongst women, and had much more success relationship-wise.

          In general, because I’m a good conversationalist and a good listener, have a good sense of humor, and generally knew how to keep things positive, and keep my nerves calm to maintain a lightness around the first few dates, the women I went out with usually enjoyed themselves (at least to some degree). As I said above, this doesn’t mean I tossed all of “courtship” out the window, but I didn’t sweat it if a given woman seemed to want something more traditional looking. I just took it as a sign that we probably wouldn’t be a good match then. Overall, what I learned was that it was much better to exude a general confidence in who you are, and what you can offer in a relationship, then to try and be someone who appealed more broadly over the short term, but was faced with the inevitable fallout that would come after the initial courtship period was over.
           
          In my experience, when there was a connection and attraction, I never had to do all the calling, planning, and paying. Even if I did more than the woman I was dating, everyone I ended up dating (short term or long term) has stepped it up early, either through calling/texting, helping to plan dates, and even sharing paying. And reversely, whenever this didn’t happen, and it was on me to initiate almost everything, the women in question turned out to not really be that interested. 
           
          The last point I’ll make is that it seems to me that people are forgetting the normal social context of traditional courtship. Specifically, that it developed during times when communities tended to be much more closely knit, and where it was likely that women and men knew each other or where socially connected to each other before they started formally dating. This of course isn’t absent today – plenty of people meet in social circles, during schooling, at work, etc. However, when it comes to applying traditional courtship to online dating, or other modern dating settings where people are total or almost total strangers, I think it’s a stretch even for those who most uphold 20th century gender roles.
           
          The sheer number of options and the norm of people dating more than one person reduces the likelihood that early gestures have a lot of meaning. In addition, because people lack social ties, it’s easier for those who don’t want commitment to fake it until they get what they want, and then to move on (often without any real consequences). Whether it’s women who get burned by men who court them to get sex, or men who get burned by women who are going along for the ride, the longer a person is “on the market,” the more likely it is that their trust will become more guarded. As such, the reasonable rate of escalation and demonstration of heightened interest should be slower than if you met and knew each other in some manner or another through social circles. But it’s often the opposite because people treat it all like a competition and fear loosing out.
           
           

        8. Shaukat

          @Isa
           
          The $100 would be the cost of the entire bill, food and drinks included, not just the cost of her meal:) I was quite young when I used to engage in that kind of “courting,” and I realized it wasn’t effective. The suggestions you list are all quite good. The fomula I adhere to now is to meet for coffee or drinks on the first date,then if things go well a movie or museum on the second, a lounge on the third. I save dinner for the 4th or 5th date if things are still going well.

        9. Jenn

          Ciaran,

          Why are you so stuck on the idea that the most valuable thing a woman has to offer is a functioning uterus? Your argument makes zero sense. What about all the young women of child-bearing age who have low or no fertility? Are they completely useless as adoptive mothers? By your argument, they don’t deserve to be treated as well as women who are fertile, just because they can’t bear a man’s biological offspring. And of course, you completely twisted the peacock metaphor to attempt to suit your own point of view. My point in saying that is that any time a man wants to get romantic with a woman, whether for breeding purposes or not, the behaviors are always the same because it is part of nature. You seem to be trying to justify a bias against older women. They are already every bit as valuable as younger women (in some ways more so) and they don’t need to prove themselves to any man. There aren’t a whole lot of 50 to 60+ year old men who are interested in having kids anyway, so the older women these guys want to date don’t have to qualify as brood mares, and they don’t have to somehow “make up” for no longer being fertile. 

        10. Ciaran

          @ Jenn,

          “Why are you so stuck on the idea that the most valuable thing a woman has to offer is a functioning uterus?”

          I didn’t say it was the most valuable thing, did I?  Go back and check – I’m pretty sure I didn’t.  I certainly say it is a very valuable thing,  especially for a man who wants to have children.

          “Your argument makes zero sense. What about all the young women of child-bearing age who have low or no fertility? Are they completely useless as adoptive mothers?”

          No, but I wouldn’t have knowingly chosen one to court as my wife, either, because I wanted my own biological children.

          “By your argument, they don’t deserve to be treated as well as women who are fertile, just because they can’t bear a man’s biological offspring.”

          If by “treated as well” means being courted as a wife by a man like me who wants biological children, then yes, that is correct.  I would not have knowingly married an infertile woman or a woman who didn’t want to have children.  In fact, as I mentioned above, I once broke off an otherwise excellent relationship because she didn’t want kids.  

          I can see why you don’t like my opinion, but I can’t see why you fail to understand it and say it makes “zero sense”.  It’s very simple.  I wanted my own biological children.  I couldn’t make them by myself.  I needed a woman with a “functioning uterus” to be my wife and the mother of my children.  Therefore, I placed a great deal of value on a woman’s fertility.  So yes, I valued fertile women much more highly than women who were infertile, by circumstance or choice.

          “You seem to be trying to justify a bias against older women. They are already every bit as valuable as younger women (in some ways more so) and they don’t need to prove themselves to any man.”

          Not for a man who wants kids, they aren’t.  But let’s take a man in my position – middle aged, with children close to grown.  My courting behavior 20 some years ago was motivated by my procreative instinct.  Take that away, what’s my motivation now?  Those older women who have nothing to prove to me, who manifest such contempt for my regard, why should I care about them?  On the other hand, if they were interested in proving something to me, that they would be kind and generous partners who would make my life more pleasant, then maybe I would be interested.

          So I accept that older women “don’t need to prove themselves to any man”.  I’m asking you to accept the converse: that older men don’t need to prove themselves to those women.  

          “There aren’t a whole lot of 50 to 60+ year old men who are interested in having kids anyway, so the older women these guys want to date don’t have to qualify as brood mares, and they don’t have to somehow “make up” for no longer being fertile. “

          True.  Since they don’t have to qualify as brood mares, why should a man have to demonstrate his ability to be a walking ATM machine, physical laborer, Mr. Fixit, and security guard for them?  Because that is what traditional male courting behavior is – demonstrating a capacity for all those things and more.   Men do these things to convince women that they are good breeding partners.  So if there is no breeding going on, you have no basis for insisting that men continue to perform these behaviors.  

          In my first comment I criticized women for being entitled by expecting courting behavior despite their inability or unwillingness to reciprocate.  Your comment is a good example of that.  You seem to believe that women have some magical inner value that makes them deserving of male effort and attention by simply virtue of being female.  From a male perspective, that’s delusional, narcissistic twaddle.  Women, like men, are not entitled to anything more than civil behavior from the other sex.  
           
          I think the source of your delusion is this – you are unable to confront the fact that the sexual, and to a lesser extent, the romantic value of women to men decline rapidly with age.  The young, pretty, fertile woman can command male attention without having to do much at all, by virtue of those attributes.  Wish as you might, the same is not true for an older woman.  Some women learn to develop other skills to attract and hold male attention as they age, as SparklingEmerald shows above, while others retreat to a state of delusional denial and magical thinking.  I think that’s the state you are in, Jenn.  (And Evan is right there with you).

        11. Jenn

          Ciaran, 

          You’re right. I am entitled. I am entitled to have a good man who is crazy about me, loves me more than life itself, and wants to spend the rest of his life making me happy. Why? Not because, as you say, I’m delusional, or believe I have some magic value that comes from being female.

          It is simply this: because I am an unequivocally loyal, affectionate, caring, nurturing, loving, compassionate, fun, morally sound, family-oriented, talented, dependable, generous, attractive woman. I have plenty of faults, to be sure, but taking advantage of men isn’t one of them. If you think that kind of value goes down with age, you are sorely mistaken. Just because I expect a man to show me he’s a good contender for a relationship, that does not mean I do not do anything to reciprocate. Like Sparkling, I would do many of those things for a man once we’re in a relationship. But I guard my heart because it’s the only one I have. If I don’t take good care of it, how can I expect a man to do so? Not just any man can have me, nor does just any man deserve me. I behave in ways that encourage courting because it screens out the players, the married men, the time wasters and the walking wounded. In other words, it allows me to concentrate on the good guys, the ones who give with no expectation of receiving anything from me right off the bat. The ones who don’t see my value wrapped up in what I can provide for them. The ones who know that in order to have a chance at receiving my abiding forever love, they have to show they’re worthy of receiving it. Men have crossed oceans and traversed mountains on foot for the prospect of a woman’s hand in marriage. They’ve painted timeless masterpieces and written endless love poems for their muses. So I don’t think it’s too much to ask that a man who likes me treats me to a few casual dinners. 

        12. Joe

          So, Jenn, how do you go about showing a man that you are loyal, affectionate, caring, nurturing, loving, compassionate, fun, morally sound, family-oriented, talented, dependable, and generous on your first date?

        13. Fusee

          @Joe 33.1.1.12(?): Don’t know about Jenn, but here is how I give a glimpse of all my qualities in a one to 1.5 hour tea date (with the caveat that all that talking and body-language will have to be proven over time of course, it’s just a glimpse of what’s in store, kind of a menu):
           
          loyal, family-oriented: talking about my family and friends and how I maintain close contact despite having immigrated to a different continent; briefly talking about long-term friendships and how I nurture them.
          caring, compassionate: when the conversation addresses interests & hobbies, explaining my volunteer work of six years with vulnerable local populations and how it has taught me, humbled me, and made me more grateful about my own privilege.
          affectionate, nurturing, loving: listening actively, asking relevant questions, making connections between our lives when appropriate, reflecting/validating feelings, smiling warmly and looking in his eyes, touching his arm.
          morally sound, dependable: the above already gives a good insight, but obviously arriving on time, communicating adequately, making some comments showing spiritual foundation/inspiration and how I make decision, taking responsability for mistakes and mishapps (the latest might only come up on the second date, depending on how the conversation flows as it involves sharing more vulnerability)
          fun: cracking a joke, laughing at his joke if he makes one, a little self-deprecation of course!
          talented: well by then he knows that I’m a scientist, a dancer, a volunteer, a body-worker, a world-traveller, I speak several languages, yada yada, yada, no need to say more : )
          generous: definitely offering to pay at the end of the date; when he refuses saying with a big smile that my turn will come; but really everything else that was said speaks to that (making time for family, caring about friends, volunteering, etc)
           
          So if he is looking for more than sex, he should want to give a second date a go : ) I’ve indeed never NOT been asked for a second date, and third, etc. even by guy only looking for sex hehehe.

        14. Jenn

          Fusee,
          Same here! In fact, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve not been asked out on a second or a third date this past year or so. The vast majority of the men I’ve been out with have wanted to keep seeing me. It was I who decided not to continue seeing them, because I just wasn’t feeling it. And this was with them courting me.

        15. Jenn

          Joe,
          As Evan has already stated, those attributes are things that a guy who courts a woman properly will find out over time. As long as the guy has fun being with me, and I am appreciative and enthusiastic, and he feels a spark of attraction, there’s no reason for him not to want to keep seeing me. And as the vast majority of the men I’ve gone on dates with this year have wanted to continue seeing me after the first date, I’d wager that my approach is fairly effective. I let men court me so that they can be the man in the relationship. Going Dutch, meeting halfway, tit-for-tat, etc., is for friends and coworkers. Men and women are different romantically. We are not equal but we do complement each other.

        16. Karmic Equation

          Jenn, Are you the same Jenn who is the “33 yo buxom blonde trophy wife type” in post #6 of this thread? http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/chemistry/do-women-trade-on-their-looks-to-get-men-with-money/#comments
           
          If yes, then I’m going to have to say you could demand the moon and do everything wrong on a date, and still get second dates.
           
          I’m very sorry, but I’m going to have to minimize your, Fusee, and even Julia’s dating accomplishments. All three of you are attractive and in your child-bearing years. All any of you need to do is find a man you found attractive and compatible, who was commitment-oriented, and choose him. Done deal. You could all have done everything wrong on dates and still get second dates. I even committed the faux pas of talking about an ex for the entire duration of my second date with my now ex-husband, and he STILL wanted to elope with me after just 6 weeks of dating (I said no, but I got the ring 4 months later, and we didn’t marry until 18 months after that). He was totally out of my league. He was handsome, made more money than I did, loyal, faithful, and loved his mom without being a momma’s boy :)
           
          Attractive women call the shots in relationships when men are ready to settle down and get married. All we have to do is find him.
           
          What I won’t minimize is that it is apparent that both Fusee and Julia have the personalities and communication skills–(even I’m attracted to Fusee’s communication style and I’m as hetero as you can get!)–which HELPED those men get emotionally connected fast. If Fusee continued to be batsh*t crazy (she admitted she was in her 20’s) she may or may not have ended up with her current husband, but I’m sure she would have ended up with a husband, and one who was willing to put up with her crazy :) simply because she’s hot and the price for her was commitment. If he’s looking to start a family, why not start one with a hot woman who was attracted to him?
           
          I guess what I’m saying is your getting second dates, your being able to find men who’ll court you, are more based on your looks than on your skill at dating. Beautiful women tend to attribute their success in dating to something other than their beauty. Sorry no. 

        17. Jenn

          Yup, that’s me! Just to clarify though, I may be pretty but I am nowhere near flawless enough to be able to “get away” with treating men poorly on dates. And to be honest, even if I were insanely beautiful and also was inclined to be rude and inconsiderate (which I’m not – my momma raised me right!), I don’t think I’d want a guy who’d be so desperate to land a hot, young chick that he’d put up with such abysmal treatment. I’d have far more respect for a man with integrity and dignity than I’d have for a weak, needy, subservient one.

        18. Karmic Equation

           

          Ok…I’ll concede that if you “treated a man poorly”, such as being rude, you might not have gotten second dates. I would hope most women looking to find relationships aren’t rude to anyone, particularly not to the man she’s on a date with, who she wants to date again. HOWEVER, beauty has a way of making some men overlook that. For example, if you were rude to the wait-staff, a quality man may not overlook that no matter how beautiful you are, but the guy for whom you are “way out of their league” they might overlook that and even if you were rude to him. But that wasn’t the intent of my sentence “even if you did everything wrong” – rude should never fly BUT talking about exes (no-nos per most dating coaches; dressing too provocatively; not dressing provocatively enough; talking too much about your pets, etc.) isn’t going to be enough to disqualify you from a second date if you’re pretty enough. You say you’re buxom, too. So maybe even if you’re not pretty enough, your buxomness is going to have an effect.
           
          All I’m saying is that your beauty/buxomness buys you a lot more good will than you think. You may think the power is your ‘abilities” to make a man court or your selectivenss. But it could just as well be HIS desire for you that overcomes any flaws you may have.
           
          This isn’t meant to be downer post. Not-hot women don’t understand that becoming hotter is within their control (makeup, gym, dressing the right way to maximize her assets and minimize her weaknesses). But their biggest blindspot is often that they’re not aware of their “real” league. So they continually try to get men in higher leagues than they to commit to them. Often a heart-breaking and futile proposition. OTOH beautiful women don’t give their beauty enough credit for getting all the bennies they get in the world, including access to “quality” men. Beautiful women tend to attribute those bennies to their skills and not to their beauty. Good looking MEN, however, have NO PROBLEMS understanding how much power their good looks have. That’s why they don’t court, because they know their good looks often allows them to bypass that need, as long as they are also charming to boot.
           
           
          A beautiful women, in her child-bearing years, who is kind, secure, forgiving, and “reasonably not crazy most of the time” best line from this video — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKWmFWRVLlU&sns=fb — (I really love this video btw) — is going to be wife material the instant she decides she wants to become a wife with any commitment-ready man of her choosing. She just has to make sure he is commitment-ready. That’s it.
           
           
          For the rest of us 7-and-below women, who are beyond our child-bearing years, we have more work to do to get that commitment. One of the ways is to weed out the players as it’s true most players (or player-wannabes) aren’t going to court.
           
           
          My point in my post about NSA sex, is that players will court the “right” woman, but even then their goal would be to get her into bed, not a serious relationship. Few men will court a woman he considers “below his league”. So what that means is that if a woman finds a man who WILL court her, she should try to objectively assess his league and contact/stay in contact with men in that league as she’ll have the best success at finding the relationship she wants. So if a woman wants to get into a relationship with a man in a league “higher” than her own? She needs to work to be in a league higher than his.
           
           
          That said, I don’t think it’s as hard as some women may think. Because a woman’s PERSONALITY is going bump her league. I’m a 7/8 but I’ve always believed my personality bumps me into that 8/9 range. So if you’re a 7, you can date a 7/8 if your PERSONALITY makes you a prize (no drama, feminine, kind, giving, CONFIDENT & SECURE). If you’re insecure, that’s going lower your league. If you’re “crazy”, that’s going to lower your league. But per the video, the hotter a woman is the more crazy a man will tolerate from her (refer to the hot-crazy line in th video lol). So if you’re gonna be crazy, you better be hotter than you are crazy. Otherwise, aim for confident and secure and you can land men above your league. That’s my opinion, anyways.

           

        19. Julia

          @Karmic Equation

          Didn’t notice you mentioned me in that comment *brushes shoulders off* I know I am attractive but that really doesn’t mean getting men to pull out the full court press. I had plenty of really fantastic first dates, that ended up in hot makeout sessions that I never heard from again. I guess those men were looking for easy sex because I didn’t go home with them that night, they moved on. Now from their perspective, I’m sure they didn’t want to put much into having sex with a woman but its probably easier to take a woman out on 3 dates then get some then it is to take several woman out on first dates in hopes of an easy law. But I digress. You can be pretty, smart, funny, kind, warm, sexy and it still doesn’t guarantee a thing. Thats why I only concerned myself with the men actually making an effort, all the other guys weren’t worth my mental space. They were just good first dates, fun makeouts and history. 

  3. 34
    starthrower68

    It’s sad that the culture has coarsened to this point.  I saw a wonderful picture of a young couple who included washing each other’s feet in their ceremony as a sign of their desire to serve one another.  Until we can approach love with a servant’s heart rather than “what’s in it for me, how can I get everything I want, blah blah blah”.  We want to judge the splinters in the other person’s eye before removing the log in our own.  Love is patient, kind, does not seek it’s own.  

    1. 34.1
      Lynn (the other one!)

      I’m with starthrower on this. The willingness to be of service is key. If I’m understanding correctly, this is what other posters mean by reciprocity.

      If we start from a position of suspicion or fear, guess what? That’s what we’ll see because we’ve donned the suspicion/fear filter.  

      How we see the world is in part driven by what Carl Jung called the shadow. We split off the parts of ourselves that we can’t or won’t acknowledge and stuff them into our shadow. Then they own us, unless we do the work to make them conscious. And any time we have an emotional reaction to something in another, you can bet it’s the shadow talking. In other words, if I get pissed off at the man for, by example, being very critical, it’s likely I’ve buried my own very critical nature way down deep. So it’d be a good idea for me to use that as a clue and take an honest look at myself first. 

      So my emotional reactions can be really valuable clues for what I need to work on *in myself*.  Clues for why I’ve been relationship-challenged :-)

      Is it fun? Hell, no. Is it comfortable. Again, hell to the no! Is it worthwhile? Hell, yes!  

       

  4. 35
    Nathan

    I actually agree with Starthrower as well, but don’t see the need to adhere to specific gender roles around all this in order to demonstrate my love and service to my partner. In addition, though, I’d argue that it takes time for such a connection to truly develop. I generally entered into any given dating experience with an open heart, and genuine interest in getting to know my date, regardless of what it resulted in. But the kind of love service that sustains relationships over the long haul can’t possibly be there in the beginning in full (or even close to full form). Because we don’t even know each other, let alone have any idea that we’ll be together for any length of time. A lot of this discussion feels like folks attempting to put the cart before the horse.

    1. 35.1
      starthrower68

      I didn’t say anything about adhering to specific gender roles.  And unfortunately we connect “courting” to “you must spend a ridiculous amount of money to win me over”.  That might be true for some women but there’s an awful lot of blanket judgement happening here.  A man doesn’t have to spend a huge amount of money to court me.  He could court me by taking me for a walk in the park, or I am content to sit in the back of his pick-up just chatting and I’ll even bring the picnic.  You don’t have to spend a ton of money on someone to show generosity of spirit.  I can sense that by how much time and attention you want to give.   And it sounds to me like what dating has become is to expect the other person to assume all the risk while we assume none.  

  5. 36
    Karmic Equation

    Well, my take on this is not quite as high-brow as others here have made it to be.
     
    The way I see it, most men date multiple women in the same period of time until they find one they find themselves a girlfriend. 
     
    So, hell no am I going to “subsidize” the guy’s dating other women until I’m his girlfriend. If I pick up the tab before he’s my bf, then it’s because  I “feel” like treating him (e.g., because I invited him and I make more and we’re going to an expensive place he normally wouldn’t have gone to had I not suggested it).
     
    If he invites, and he hasn’t made any commitment to me, I’m not paying the full tab.
     
    That said, I don’t mind if said man asks we go dutch :)
     
    I won’t next a guy for asking we go dutch if I know he makes less than I do or if the tab gets close to the $100 mark (usually I say, “you want some help with that? so he doesn’t even have to ask.) However, if I”m reasonably certain that the guy makes as much or more than I do, and he asks that we go dutch? I would look at that as a red flag and that he might be cheap/stingy in other areas not related to money and/or not savvy in how to get on the good side of a woman he wants to make a favorable impression on.
     
    To be frankfully honest, when I KNOW I don’t want to see the guy again, I INSIST on paying the tab. To me that discharges any obligation on my part to see him again without any guilt of having “taken advantage” of his wallet.

    1. 36.1
      Karmic Equation

      Ooops. Need to rephrase:

      Hell no am I going to “subsidize” a guy’s dating other women EVER. But I will treat equitably (or even most of the time) when I’m his gf, particularly if I make significantly more than he does. If we make approximately same, then going dutch is a given once we’re in a committed relationship.

  6. 37
    Lynn (the other one!)

    That’s a great point, Nathan. Being of service has nothing to do with gender roles.

    However, what I’ve noticed is that the acts of service themselves may vary generally by gender.

    For instance, my current guy refuses to let me pay for so much as a carton of milk. I still offer from time to time, I try hard to notice and thank him each time so as not to take his generosity for granted. But to him, being able to provide is something he prides himself on and it’s a way he serves. That seems generally very much more a male kinda perspective. 

    OTOH, he loves it when I fuss over him, rub his back, notice that he got his hair cut, or gussy up more than usual for him. To him those count as my acts of service and they’re meaningful because they’re coming from me – the woman in his life – rather than one of his buddies. 

    I never thought of it that way before.  And believe me, having come of age in the early 70’s and being a hard-core feminist for years, it’s meant I’ve had to do some pondering, un-learning, and re-learning. 

    Seems to me we’re trying to uber-rationalize from our minds and tossing out the heart-centered baby with the bathwater.

    So. Not sure if I’ve been clear or not. And thanks for the thoughtful discussion. 

     

  7. 38
    Fusee

    Phew intense discussion! Looks to me that folks actually agree more than they think, and I’m wondering if the disagreements do not stem from various definitions of the word “courtship”.
     
    Anyway, sure different preferences exist and are there to stay, as a few people really want to stick to the old-fashioned traditional courtship where the man is the leader is all matters, and the woman the follower like in the 50s, while others want to totally ignore the concept of gender. However most folks nowadays are more in the middle in their approach to dating and their expectations, so most people should be able to find some compatibility in that regard, no?
     
    To me, the questions to answer at this point of the conversation are “what constitutes the courtship phase in our modern times?” and “when does the woman start co-piloting/reciprocating in a man-woman relationship?”. In this age of dating multiple people, it looks like courtship is the phase between initial contact/meeting and declaration of exclusivity, but I’m not even sure, so folks might be talking about different things without realizing it.
     
    If courtship is defined as that brief period of time that stops when a relationship is declared, I – as a woman whose dating goal was to determine whether the suitor was going to be my husband or not – need the man to lead the process (so to “court” me) until he decides whether or not he wants to be in a relationship with me. The reason is not because of “traditional gender roles” but because I know that I’m probably the most interested of the two in forming a relationship in general, and because I know that the man’s default purpose is to get into my pants, regarless of any longer-term goal that he may also have.
     
    For these reasons the man has to clarify that 1. In general he is also looking for/open to enter a relationship, 2. That I’m a potential contender for the role of girlfriend. To help him making his mind about me, I will give him plenty of insight about what he could expect if I were to become his girlfriend. I’m going to behave as if we already were on a relationship, with the exception of initiating the number of dates needed to reach exclusivity, paying for anything until he tells me I’m his girlfriend, and having any kind of physical intimacy. And of course, I will let him know as soon as I realize that he is no boyfriend-material.
     
    Since I do not date multiple people at the same time and make this fact crystal clear on the first date, he gets my exclusivity de facto without any pressure to return the favor. However it’s in the interest of my guy to become exclusive to me pronto because I’m not going to sit around for weeks until he makes his mind. Also he is not going to be able to kiss me/touch me until he is my boyfriend : ) As soon as his words and actions show that we’re exclusive, then I’m going to start reciprocating the planning of dates and contributing financially to the process. Oh and I’m going to kiss him.
     
    It just so happens that my then boyfriend/now husband was operating just like me. Great minds think alike : ) He made it clear early on that he wanted to get to know me undistracted, so I started reciprocating financially on the third date, I kissed him on the fourth, and I offered some date ideas around date 7 or 8 (not earlier because he had already planned plenty of fun stuff until then!).
     
    And to those of you who think that we should not become exclusive too soon, look at what the alternative is: confusion about interest levels, fear of missing out on the next best thing which is really distracting and disruptive to the bonding process, inequality in the financial contributions and planning during “courthsip”, etc. I’m not advocating to be exclusive at date 1 like my hubby and I were, but do you really need 10 dates to make up your mind? It’s not marriage! It’s just a pay-as-you-go relationship that can still be ended at any time. So, to guys who want reciprocity asap, ask her to be exclusive earlier in the process! And in order know sooner if you want her as your girlfriend, make the first few dates really count. Get to know her. Easy peasy. By asking sooner, you’ll also realize sooner if she is truly interested, and you’ll get your “equality” sooner. Win-win.
     
    And yes, the first few dates don’t have to cost much or involve a whole lot of crazy planning, so leading that stage is more symbolic than truly expensive or difficult. My hubby took me to a lovely tea place for date 1, and a $10 outdoors concert with picnic of salad and herbal tea for date 2. I brought the chocolate and some cheese though. It was such a fantastic date!
     
    He chose well. The music became the soundtrack of our dating relationship and we got married on the second anniversary of that second date in the grove where the concert took place.

  8. 39
    Kiki

    I got married way before online dating existed, I met my husband at work, and got to know him organically as a friend before we started dating. So, it beats me how this thing works with dating several people at the same time, and having several dates, and “filtering” people and going on numerous dates getting to know each other but postponing sex. It seems to me, that if people meet on-line there would be too much pressure for both parties to play a role in order to influence the other person’s behavior. So, my theoretical take is the following: I can see why men hate the paying part of courtship.  It is potentially a waste of money that they could better spend on a hobby or with their buddies.
    At the same time, as a woman, I would not care how much money a man spends on other women.  In fact, I would hope he’d be more selective in his choices, and see a value in seeing me rather than seeing as many women as possible just to improve his statistical chances.  As Karmic said, I would not care to subsidize his overall dating experience, in fact, the more money he spends on me, the better the chance that he has no money left for the next girl, which, ceteris paribus, is what I would prefer anyway, lol.
    Also, from my, and my friends experience, if a woman insisists to pay the bill on a first or an early date, it is a sure sign that she intends to friend-zone him, and just wants to make sure she did not mislead him that there is any romantic intent on her part.  Courting, and paying for meals and entertainment is perceived as romantic by women, sharing the costs is friendly, and not bad either, if the man would be happy in this position.
     
     

  9. 40
    Nathan

    “Since I do not date multiple people at the same time and make this fact crystal clear on the first date, he gets my exclusivity de facto without any pressure to return the favor.” Fusee, it would probably be somewhat easier to deal with some of this stuff if your position were the norm in online dating. However, it just isn’t. It’s a minority of women that do what you do. The story that most women choose one guy online and focus all their attention on him sounds nice, but really isn’t true. It’s probably the case that men are more likely than women to actively juggle multiple dating options at a given time, but women are still looking at profiles, still talking to others, and some juggle just as much, if not more, than the men they date. That’s one of the points of online dating – to increase options and allow for more choices.
     
    The thing is while the money piece of the courtship equation is being emphasized, it’s actually about the whole “show” as Evan puts it. Planning dates, paying for dates, making return calls to get the next date, keeping track of he specific details about your date that help you choose what to do, as well as how to express interest in between + during dates. Even if you’re only dating or talking with two women at a given time (I rarely did more than this), trying to keep up the ” interest show” while also living the rest of your life can be a bit much. To some degree, the same thing can be said of women dating multiple men, but if they’re not having to plan and pay for the dates, and can wait for the men to call them, the pressure to “perform” is less.
     
    As I said above, if we agree that it’s mostly a show in the beginning, then I’m not sure how it helps women sift through men who are players, men who are uncertain about them, but keeping options open, and men who actually want to be with them over the long haul. I get the sense that men are being asked to create the kind of romance that comes when two people choose to focus on each other, under conditions that promote multiplicity and keeping your options open (at least for a month or two anyway). And women are being given a false sense of hope that a guy who courts them in the first handful of dates is much more likely to be a keeper.
     
    Overall, I think a fair amount of these issues can be dealt with by simplifying first and second dates to things like coffee, walks, free events, etc. However, I’m betting most of the men commenting here have run into the expectation of more from some women right from the get go. And rushing to ask for exclusivity can easily be seen as acting desperate. Seriously, go read Evan blogger friend Moxie’s blog for a few weeks. Neither the simple, low or no cost dates, nor seeking exclusivity after a few dates goes over well there. And that’s just one example of folks who almost exclusively do online dating.
    To me, courtship is something you would do when you’ve chosen a woman to be exclusive with, not something you do when both parties are most likely dating multiple people, or at least keeping the door open for that.

    1. 40.1
      Jenn

      How does it help women for men to court them? Simple: if he doesn’t ask her out or contact her very often, he’s not that interested. A guy who genuinely likes a woman will not pull vanishing acts, and he will make more of an effort to win her over. If he doesn’t know within the first 6-8 dates whether he’d like to be exclusive, he’s probably not going to pursue her for very long. In which case, if he loses interest, she is freed up to keep dating other guys.

    2. 40.2
      Fusee

      All good points, Nathan. You make me realize how behaviors and preferences regarding courtship are going to differ between online dating and real life meeting. Since I have never participated in online dating where you indeed end up scheduling dates with multiple people that you have not even met yet, I have to admit that I’m pretty clueless about I would exactly proceed.
       
      I think I would still expect the guy to show clear interest from the get-go, and ask for exclusivity within a month. I guess I’d be ok for him (and me) to go on his (my) other first dates (or sets of 2-3 dates) in the following couple of weeks, but after that I’d need to be chosen to keep my own interest level high enough, you know? ; ) Again it’s *just* exclusivity, not an engagement! If it does not work after a few more dates, isn’t it pretty easy to put your profile back up and email more prospects?
       
      In terms of “show”, well sure courtship is a “show”, but if he does not even want to show me his interest, his leadership, and his willingness to buy me a cup of tea, it does not bode well for the future when the show is over. And by the way, we women also have to put up quite a bit of a “show” in the sense of being able to demonstrate in a very short time how wonderful girlfriends we could be. It’s quite a challenge to do it authentically, and I came to the conclusion that it’s actually a real art form that is critical to master in order for us to be successful and get what we want from dating.

      1. 40.2.1
        Nathan

        I rarely went more than a month before seeking exclusivity with a woman. In part because I really disliked juggling multiple dates for any extended period of time, and in part because I usually found someone I was interested in enough to want to try a relationship with. In addition, even though I have been advocating for more sharing in the process, I still usually did plenty to demonstrate my interest. It just didn’t always look like the traditional or expected ways.
         
        As far as the “shows go,” overall, I think we tend to put far too much stress on ourselves to appear “wonderful” right from the start, out of a fear that if we don’t, we’ll get passed over and never find love. I read people’s stories online, I remember all the first and second dates I went on where I put out all the stops, and still ended up back to the drawing board, and I think “it just doesn’t have to be this way.” As you say, “it’s just exclusivity, not an engagement.” But I think in this age of options and viewing dating as a high powered competition or even battle, people seem prone to treating every date as if it’s a life and death situation.

  10. 41
    RA

    As a man of a certain age, I’ve learned from way too much experience that the whole dinner on a first or second date does not work, period. I’m not the most charismatic guy so after years of too much money spent for too little results, I learned to look for activities I like to do to which I can take someone with me and not have to spend much money. The most important thing about the initial dates is developing rapport with her. If she’s focused on the money I spent the first or second time out, I’ll suss that out about her and I know she’s not for me. Hate to say it, but there are still quite a few of those out there. The time to take her out to a nice romantic dinner date is *after* we’ve established the chemistry on the first few dates and we know we want to keep seeing each other. In which case, I won’t have an issue spending the money then. My results are a bit better doing it this way. No chemistry? Still happens, but at least I’m not out $60, $70 or more.

    1. 41.1
      SparklingEmerald

      Ra – Finally,  a man who GETS it  !  Make those first dates, the “exploration” period and don’t break the bank !  There is so much fun free (or very nearly free) stuff to do, and with a little imagination, a man can court a woman at no, or low cost.  He can screen out the gold diggers, and when the woman has consistently shown that she enjoys HIM, and not his $$$$$, then you can go to a nice romantic dinner. 
      Maybe I’m some kind of unicorn, but I PREFER first dates to be low or no cost.  I get very uncomfortable when a man writes me online and offers me expensive theater tickets or suggests a super expensive dinner for a first date. It makes me think he is trying to buy me.  That has only happened to me once or twice since OLD, but my retired match.com account listed plenty of freebies under “hot spots” and “favorite activites” etc. 

  11. 42
    Jenn

    For most women, including me, it isn’t about the amount of money a man spends. I just want a guy who plans, executes and pays for the dates – in other words, a guy who takes charge. If he asks for my input, I’ll give him some suggestions, but I actually like a guy who can plan things. I’d love it if a guy I was dating just said, “I wanna take you out to dinner. Pick you up at 7 on Saturday.” Swoon! :)
     
    I’ve found that I’m actually most comfortable in the beginning with doing low-key things like going out for a drink, or a game of bowling. I had a guy who I mentioned in a previous post who was very sweet to me. He paid for everything, opened doors for me, treated me with the utmost respect. But he also gave me too much too soon – presents for Christmas on our third date (which was the weekend before the holiday, in all fairness), and after he’d just treated me to dinner AND a show. I felt overwhelmed because I wasn’t sure how I felt about him and his intensity scared me. I felt like he was trying too hard to win me over with elaborate dates and gifts, and he wasn’t just allowing things to naturally progress. To me, when a guy does that it suggests a certain amount of insecurity, like he’s afraid I won’t like him if he doesn’t do those things. I felt pressured, by the efforts he was making, to make a decision about him that I wasn’t ready to make. So I broke it off rather than keep allowing him to lavish me when I wasn’t sure how I felt. I thought it wouldn’t be fair and that to keep seeing him would just be leading him on.
     
     Dinners don’t have to be expensive, but for a first date, they suck – especially if you’re just meeting for the first time. I do drinks, because one drink ain’t gonna put a guy in the poorhouse and it’s a quick, easy date. Dinner should be more like the second or third date, and not anywhere expensive. I’d wager my dates never spend more than $10-15 on me for a meal and that’s how I like it. $100 on a meal, even if that includes everything, is so outlandish I have to wonder where that guy who said that in the post above was taking his dates! I have yet to be on a dinner date where the tab comes to more than $35-40. But then again, I don’t usually drink alcohol except on drink dates.
     
    So I agree, keep it low-key in the beginning, and guys, don’t shower your dates with “stuff” and let them get to know YOU, not your wallet. Work on establishing rapport and upping her attraction so that she’ll naturally want to spend more time with you because of how you make her feel. The guy I mentioned above did NOTHING in that regard: no flirting (not even through text!), NO touching except for a friendly hug and peck on the cheek after the first and second date, and it was I who had to kiss HIM on our third date. LOL he was a sweet guy as I said, but is it any wonder why I wasn’t attracted to him after all that?

    1. 42.1
      Shaukat

      @Jenn,
      I agree with most of what you write above. In fact, your experience with that “sweet” guy validates what I wrote in my previous comment, that “courting” behavior, at least as described in the blog post that started this discussion, has the opposite effect that it’s supposed to have, i.e, that it sends women running in the opposite direction by signalling insecurity.  As for the $100 dinners, I didn’t mean to convey that it happened all the time, it happened on a few occasions and as I stated, it included two meals and usually several glasses of wine or drinks. It’s not that far fetched in a big city. However, I agree that it was outlandish, it happened when I was quite young, and the point I was trying to make was that notions of traditional courtship tend to encourage those types of ineffective behaviors and practices. Again, there’s a reason why the PUA community has such popularity.
       
      I’ll go one better and say that not only should a guy not be buying (even inexpensive) dinners until at least the third or fourth date, but if you haven’t made out by the second date and gotten to at least third base by date number three then the girl’s either wasting your time, i.e not that into you, or abide’s by a radically different set of values, for example believes in outdated Victorian era practices linked to sexual repression and chastity. I’m not even saying that such values are good or bad, but only that they’re incompatible with values that place a heavy emphasis on sexual and physical intimacy as a crucial component of dating and relationships.

      1. 42.1.1
        Jenn

        I think the guys who think that all they have to do to get a girl to like them is buy them stuff and be courteous, are the ones who will continually get frustrated and become resentful that they fail. The reason they fail is because while those behaviors are important, it isn’t enough to just plan and pay for dates and open doors for her. There has to be an undercurrent of attraction, which often can be established by innocent flirting and nonsexual touching. After all, if a girl is interested enough to accept a date, he can be reasonably assured that she’d welcome light flirtation and innocent touches on the arm and such during their time together. And then when he goes in for the kiss, she’ll be primed and ready, and that much more excited for it. You gotta preheat the oven before you stick in the turkey!
         
        Since I am a virgin who is waiting until marriage, I can say with confidence that a man who expects foreplay and sex to begin after the third date (that’s only like 3 weeks!), is doing me a favor if he disappears. Any woman who wants a serious relationship with a man, whether she’s waiting until marriage to have sex or not, knows that the longer they wait, the better off they’ll be. Any guy who would construe the fact that the woman is choosing not to rip her clothes off right away, as a mark of disinterest in him, is clueless in my opinion. As long as she is saying yes when a guy asks her out in advance for weekend dates, and is attentive, flirty and engaged with him when they’re together, and especially if she enjoys kissing and touching him, what else does he need?
         
        By the way, placing a heavy emphasis on sexual compatibility is where a lot of people wind up going wrong. I agree that it’s very important, but I think of it in a way that one successful waiting-until-marriage couple put it in one of their podcasts on Youtube. Sex is an important part of a marriage, but it’s at the top of the pyramid. The bottom of the pyramid is the foundation, which is made up of the friendship, common values, morals and goals, and personality compatibility. People who have sex too early in the relationship are in effect, trying to “flip” the pyramid onto it’s head. Well, what do you think happens then? Obviously, the pyramid topples over. You have to build that strong, solid foundation first or it won’t stay up. Just my take, but bottom line is, men shouldn’t equate a waiting woman with a disinterested one. If they’re not sure, then they can ask her why things haven’t happened yet. Talk to her and get clarification that way.

  12. 43
    Stephen

    I understand I might get a lot of hatred from women for explaining the male perspective on this but someones gotta do it. I feel that any debate on this issue cant be complete and meaningful if we continue to ignore the male perspective.

    Men are brought up to believe that women are to be courted, wooed, treated right; that they are the prize to be won, and a man needs to prove his worth to them through his actions. 

    Im sure that most men around the world still wont have any problems doing this for women, but we arent blind. Since womens sexuality is no longer retrained, we can see that women dont demand any of these things from men they are really attracted to, and they genuinely desire. 

    What this means is that, even though most men dont have an inherent problem with the courtship process (which places more burden on men – fairly or unfairly) , they are reluctant to go thru it because it doesnt reflect positively on their own masculinity and desirability to women anymore. It doesnt provide them with much validation. It only feels like compensating and supplicating in an age where if a man is attractive, hot, and exciting, he can easily obtain sex, affection, and companionship of most women w/o doing any of what they are traditionally taught they were supposed to do.

    I think more and more men are realizing this two-facedness and hypocrisy and saying “Thankyou very much” to courtship.

    1. 43.1
      Garret

      Good post and I agree with it.  Look at how rock stars, movie stars, pro athletes are treated by women.  Women will scream when the guy walks by, often yelling that they want to have his baby.  This is a guy that has never done anything for her.
      Same thing for just any guy that they really desire.  They will let him take her home and have sex with him without requiring him to make any sort of investment.
      So if you are having to court her, she obviously doesn’t think much of you.  I hadn’t really thought about this aspect very much but as I read what you wrote, I saw the truth in it immediately.  It makes me realize that I have zero desire to court a woman.  She wouldn’t require it of a guy she really wants, and I don’t want a woman who doesn’t really want me.

      1. 43.1.1
        Julia

        You don’t think Jay Z had to court Beyonce or Kanye had to court Kim? Sorry, just because a man is in high demand doesn’t mean he’s slacks on the right woman. I highly doubt Beyonce was knocking down Jay’s door and picking up the tab….

      2. 43.1.2
        Jenn

        Garret,
        Women of high integrity and quality will not just drop trou for any handsome guy who comes along. Most of us do have standards! The only men who court me are the ones who want to. They want to because it puts them in a position of leadership and it makes them feel good to put forth their best effort. The others aren’t worth my time because often, if they’re not putting in any effort, they’re not interested enough in me to warrant my spending time with them. If all those kind of guys want are the type of women who will fall into bed with a guy at the crook of his finger, I say good luck to them. They’re not the guys I’m interested in.

    2. 43.2
      NASHWC

      Stephen,  ignoring the male perspective is a prime directive of the “Feminist” movement.
      I think your comments apply exclusively to the 5-10% of guys that 90+% of women are chasing after. The rest of us are (for now) confronted with this outdated ‘courting’ process (soon, wedding rings will be an outdated custom as well; unfortunately, not soon enough).
      Over time, a man’s experience teaches him to focus much more on a women’s actions rather than merely their words because more often than not, they don’t match. And this certainly explains the disconnect between the man of the women’s comments here vs. what happens in the real world.  
      It is interesting to see the how (the significant portion of) Western women who have tossed aside their traditional roles and obligations are now upset when guys then decide (after a logical analysis of risk/reward regarding ‘courting’) to do the same thing. In an attempt to reverse this trend, the latest shaming tactic involves the “Man Up!” phrase, an obvious attempt to question a man’s masculinity when they refuse to abide by the Feminist doctrine. However, this tactic only works on the weaker guys, and women don’t want those anyways. When smart guys are confronted with this nonsense, they just shrug their shoulders and walk away … which leads to the oft said phrase “Where Are All the Good Men?” .. as if that’s what is really in demand .. [sigh]

  13. 44
    Lynn (the other one!)

    Garret, I see what you’re saying, and I think it’s a mistake to assume all women are like what you describe. Just like Evan says we women should realize there are many great guys out there and they’re not all players or somesuch, please realize there are plenty of quality women who are much more than mindless star-struck groupies.

     

    1. 44.1
      Rachel

      Thank you!! Lynn is rite! Celebrity worship=stupid. ^^ And Garret, no women with any pride lets a man she doesnt lyk court her!

  14. 45
    Fusee

    @Stephen 43 and Garret 43.1: I like me some male perspective, but suggesting something that differs from Evan’s advice is only helpful when it’s at least a success story.
     
    If you are in a happy, healthy, long-lasting relationship with a woman who chased you, paid for your first dates, asked you to be your boyfriend, please say so and we might start listening to your “male perspective”. Otherwise “having no desire to court women” because some women might drop their pants with no need for courtship under some high chemistry/high alcohol circumstances, is akin to us women “having no desire to be receptive, grateful, and making you feel listened and appreciated” on a date because some men go nuts over ungrateful b*tches who do not have to make them feel anything in order to be taken on a fancy date.
     
    Most normal people looking for a relationship are looking for an emotional connection. If the man does not want to court (meaning: initiate, plan, and pay for a couple of inexpensive dates), and if the woman does not want to be receptive (meaning: being enthusiastic, grateful, interested), how are they going to – you know – connect? 
     
    The proof is in the pudding. (Generic) you can refuse to do what would improve the chances of creating an emotional connection, because of bitterness and desire to “punish” the other gender, but guess what? (Generic) you is the one who will lose because while you are complaining other men get it and take their chance with nice, grateful, sensitive, and fun women.
     
    If my guy had not courted me for our first couple of meetings and dates (to show me that he wanted a bit more than *just quick sex* and therefore separate himself from the rest of you guys), and if I had not shown my interest, gratitude, and excitement in getting to know him from the get-go, we would still be single.
     
    So good luck to you guys!

    1. 45.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Yeah, I don’t get these guys at all. When did “being a selfish dick” become an effective dating strategy?

      1. 45.1.1
        Julia

        Its not. It just adds to further bitterness and distrust of the opposite sex. These guys are no different than women who refuse to trust their boyfriends and constantly check up on them. Bitter and unhappy and most importantly, ineffective. 

        1. Jenn

          Exactly, Julia. And these guys who are trolling legitimate dating forums, picking apart good advice and dating practices, complaining that “It’s not FAAIIIR!”

        2. Jenn

          These are the ones who will never get what their contemporaries have already figured out: figure out how to treat women well AND how to up the woman’s attraction to you as a man, and you will succeed. They are missing a huge piece of the puzzle if they go into dating thinking that all they have to do to succeed is throw a bunch of dinners out at a woman, open doors and make polite conversation.

  15. 46
    Tom10

    @ Fusee #45
    “Most normal people looking for a relationship are looking for an emotional connection”

    I think one thing we’re forgetting in this discussion is what actually motivates most normal men (as opposed to people/women). Most men don’t go out looking for an “emotional connection” as their primary goal. If we accept that “men look for sex and find love” then it makes sense that they will pursue the most efficient method to follow their primary goal and then, in the process, they might find their secondary goal.
     
    Guys will do what works for them. So if men can find their primary goal – sex – in an efficient manner, why would they pursue a resource intensive/inefficient method, i.e. courting? So I agree with Stephen and Garret that courting is a poor dating strategy for men – assuming the guy is looking for sex and love if it happens (i.e. most men).
     
    If, however, a guy is intentionally looking for a relationship/emotional connection – not sex – as his primary goal, then it makes sense for him to adjust his methodology. In this instance I agree with you and Evan that courting makes sense.
     
    “The proof is in the pudding”
     
    Agreed. I think the fact that the waning popularity of courting – and the fact that we are having this discussion – has already determined that, on balance, the majority of men are not prepared to forsake their primary goal for the pursuit of their secondary goal.
     
     
    So on balance, I can’t really see a return to courting in the current dating landscape, except in the times in a man’s life when he is actively looking for a relationship, and is willing to consciously over-ride his immediate desire for sex in the pursuit of this goal.

    1. 46.1
      Fusee

      @Tom 10: “If we accept that “men look for sex and find love” then it makes sense that they will pursue the most efficient method to follow their primary goal and then, in the process, they might find their secondary goal.”


      Well, yeah! I agree that men look for sex, and even the ones looking/interested in forming a relationship will take the casual sex on their way there anyway. However since it’s a blog about helping women get into happy and long-lasting relationships, I tend to comment with that goal in mind, for men and for women : )
       
      But you know what? Even if the person’s goal is *just sex*, most men are still going to have to court, and most women are still going to be receptive and flirty in return if they want to succeed, so I find the end goal kind of irrelevant to this discussion.
       
      Sure, a small % of men can get away with showing up at an event or on a dating website and get plenty of attractive women throwing themselves at them without having to “court” them. Maybe some 9s-10s in looks, and/or the rich, and/or the famous (and young college students getting drunk at frat parties)… And in the same vein, a small % of hot women can afford not being receptive and even get away with batsh*t behavior while still getting smitten guys to chase them and spoil them like there is no tomorrow. It works that way because what that small % of people represent (looks, money, fame) is enough of an ego boost to the ones chasing after them, that those folks do not need to do anything else to elicit an initial high interest level.
       
      And so what???
       
      Most of us are not “ego-boosters” like the 9s and 10s, the rich, and the famous. So for normal people, in order to be successful with our goals basic intelligence dicatates to follow the method that has the most chances of yielding results. Most of us will need to bring to the table a little more than our 7s and 8s looks, our average salaries, and I-am-a-nobody status, regardless of our ultimate goal.
       
      That something else is eliciting an emotional response. Even for casual sex, if you are not an ego-booster by looks, wealth and/or fame (built-in emotional response) you’ll need to elicit your target’s emotional response by other means in order to get laid. Thats’ courting for guys (making her feel special) and being receptive for women (making feel like a manly man).
       
      So (generic) you not wanting to court does not affect us women. You’ll be the one missing out. If we want sex, we can get it anytime we want, and indeed will NOT need you to court us. If we want a relationship, we will NOT give the time of day to guys who text us “UR HOTT WANNA COM OVER 2NITE?” or who want to go dutch on drinks at our first date.

      1. 46.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Amen. There has been a ridiculous discussion going on at a Men’s Rights Activist blog about my courtship post – nearly 1000 comments telling me that my 35-55 year old women are overvaluing themselves for insisting on displays of courtship. Quite the contrary. The people who lose out when men fail to court are MEN. Because the only women left for them are the ones with low-self esteem.

        1. Jenn

          LOL Evan, I clicked on that post on your Twitter feed! It was the justfourguys.com thing, right? I posted as myself and got a bunch of idiots making fun of me because they thought I was this other chick also named Jen (though they failed to notice that I spell my nickname with 2 “n’s”, not one). I left it alone because I’d said my piece and was done, but I found it funny that the host bragged about his thread’s popularity while impugning yours. I wanted to tell him that unlike his readers, we over here do not have limitless amounts of time with which to post on Internet forums. And we actually put thought into our discussions.

    2. 46.2
      RacheL

      i havent seen waning popularity of courting……if u define courting as asking the woman out in a decisiv manly way  & paying for dates–not necessarily  expensive dates–then almost every guy ive ever dated acted like that! im thinking perhaps the women in my area have not made it very possible for the men to date us in this way (thanks ladies! for being a cartel! lol!) And from reading sum of the comments on the page, majority of women here have been courted kwite a bit!
      U saed–>”If, however, a guy is intentionally looking for a relationship/emotional connection – not sex – as his primary goal…I agree with you and Evan that courting makes sense.”
      Those relationshp-focused guys are the kind that many women reading here are looking for, Tom. See if ure not looking for a relationshp, maybe out of 5 women u date, ull fall for one of those women only! In meantime, the other 4 u went out with who were helping plan and pay for dates will be forgotten by u, after their effort! its not a gd deal for the gurls.
      if women only go out with guys who court, the mental and money costs the guys have to keep spending will make dating more costly for them, so they only keep asking the woman out if theyre very interested. the guy im dating now, our 1st 3 dates i estimate from the menu that the bills was about $100, $300 and $150. its good for me because i see money-proof of his interest. now i told him, from now on i lyke simple dates, burger king, microwaved pizza, watever it doesnt matter anymore. and i intend to chip in my share too.  i dont think hes complaining about spending that $500+ for first 3 dates, we r happy with each other! (and by the way, lyke many of the ladies here, i would be fine with 3 cheap early dates too, but he must pay). when 2 people find sum1 who they like and who is sincere about wanting relationshps, these money costs are small matters.
       
      i agree with sum of the men that dating can be tough on guys. the paying for dates when u have gurls going out for dinner 1 or 2 times then disappearing. which is why women here say, why not keep it cheap? i insist on being ‘courted’, not because i think im so awesum lyke the Hope diamond and a man must climb 3 mountains to win my heart or sumthing lol. i think im kwite a gem but so is the man im dating! i think hes terrific. but courting is a beautiful process, when both sides do it rite. ;)
       
      Tom, if not courting is working to get u what u want, thats good. i understand y sum men feel they dont want to treat women lyke a prize they have to make lotsa effort for. esp when now your mainly luking only for sex. but Evan is *rite* when he tells readers to only go out with men who court! those men are more likely to be serious in wanting relationshps! im sure lyke most readers here, u have lots of good points, but with due respect, there are enuff relationshp-focused men who also have good points, to go around for all Evan’s women readers. :)  sorry this post is so long!

    3. 46.3
      Tom10

      @ Fusee
      “So (generic) you not wanting to court does not affect us women”

      Ah but it does, because women don’t date in a vacuum. Women (as a group) are as subject to the wishes and demands of men, as men are to the wishes and demands of women. So if men don’t want to court women, but women insist on being courted we have a stand-off. 

      Well not quite; we have billions of individuals all doing what they want. So it will come down to the preferences and power of each individual. It is just too simplistic to say that only 9s and 10s have the power to do what they want and not have to acquiesce to the demands of the other gender. Almost every single guy I know (just regular guys) can have sex without resorting to courting. However, I accept that he won’t necessarily be having sex with the woman he really wants without courting. So each individual guy has to decide whether to make the effort to court the woman he really wants, or casually date the woman he’s ambivalent about. The converse works for women (i.e. demand to be courted, or acquiesce not to be).

      Ultimately it will come down to the individual and how much power they have to play in the market.

      Btw I’m not saying there’s anything inherently wrong with courting, nor do I have a problem with women demanding to be courted. All I’m saying is that I understand why guys don’t like it and thus will refuse to do it. I also think it would be useful for women here to recognize that their power to make demands is relative to the particular guy. Refusing to recognize the realities of the market is just wishful thinking.

      @ Rachel
      “ i havent seen waning popularity of courting”

      Um, the title of this blog post is “Why Men Need to Court Women Again.” Does the word “again” not imply that this is a dating method once employed, but now abandoned?

      “the guy im dating now, our 1st 3 dates i estimate from the menu that the bills was about $100, $300 and $150. its good for me because i see money-proof of his interest.”

      Of course it’s good for you. Because courting is an effective dating strategy forwomen. So I actually agree with Evan advocating for women to demand to be courted.

      1. 46.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        “how much power they have to play in the market.”

        Your power stems from your confidence. Not your looks or age or money. I don’t believe an overweight, 55-year-old woman should consent to random texts for sex just because she’s “lower value” in the eyes of men. Do you think this would be a successful dating strategy for ANY woman who wants an LTR? So, to me, it doesn’t matter what the woman’s like: she needs to carry herself with the confidence of a high-value woman…which, by the way, is the same advice PUA’s and MRA’s give to their average frustrated chumps.

        Truly confident people know that treating someone well is its own reward. It’s not some zero-sum game where she bilks him for free meals or he bilks her for free sex. That strategy has a clear winner and loser, when good relationships are, by definition, a win-win. Accepting men who don’t court, therefore, is a losing strategy for ANY woman (unless she LIKES being texted for NSA sex, of course).

        1. Lynn (the other one!)

          I’m a nearly 57 year old grandma. Pretty ordinary looking. Average build. And I’m full of confidence, fun, witty, warm, and welcoming. That’s what I consistently hear from men.

          I get hit on, both online and ‘in the wild’ (at the hardware store, at dance lessons, at the gym, for example), on a regular basis, by men ranging in age from 28 to 70, some gorgeous and some plain, some smart and some not so much. It’s all over the map.

          Of course I also get ignored by a variety of men of all ages and shapes too.

          But a whole bunch of them must perceive some value in me. I’ve learned that when I value myself so too do others. My value isn’t determined by a guy decided I don’t have any. That’d just be silly.

          And I think more men than not crave feminine warmth, a genuine welcome, and a smile.

        2. FaydedJaded

          Thanks for this EMK.
          I would like to add, that I don’t think women  “demand” courtship behavior, but rather some women only ACCEPT courtship behavior.  If a guy sends a booty call text @ 2AM, and she ignores it, because it is not acceptable to her, and she’s holding out for a man who will court her properly (even if it’s a no-cost daytime date, properly and unambigously asked for) she’s not DEMANDING anything.  No one is obligated to acqueise to anything they are not interested in.  Holding out for what you want is not being demanding.  It’s being smart.
          I have never heard of any relationship starting with a guy sending out a 2AM booty call text, and then getting a reply back that says ” I COMMAND you to court me” :)
           
           

      2. 46.3.2
        RacheL

        hi Tom! there may be less popularity of courting in society, but not less courting in my world or in the world of many of the readers here! there is less courting on a whole, because certain women dont demand this now, but Evan is telling women to not be those certain women! ;)
         
        U saed of course its good for me. but u ignored how i saed i sincerely feel “we r happy with each other” because we have BOTH met sum1 we like and who is interested in building a good relationshp! that $ he paid is a small early investment when from now on i just wanna be a cheap (in a good way!) date and wanna share expenses.
         
        last, i tried to find the MRA discussion Evan talked of, and not sure if i found the rite one (it didnt say MRA blog), but there were hundreds of posts and many insulting to women. i wanna beg women here, PLS do not date men who dont court u and show respect, i pity any woman who ends up marrying a man who thinks in a non-respectful wae to women. but show respect to men too! ;)

      3. 46.3.3
        Fusee

        @Tom10: You and your friends have no problem finding women to have casual sex without courting because most of those women do not want to be courted! They are either too busy for relationships as they are building their career or are fresh out of a LTR and need a break, or they have already disqualified you as boyfriends but like the occasional f*ck while looking for someone serious who will court them. You think you are making a good deal but she is too : )
         
        If both people want to hook-up, courting/being receptive is irrelevant. Huge waste of time. If one or both of them want more, then expecting courtship for women/receptivity for men is necessary to sort prospects out from the hook-up pool and actually getting to know one another. Sure it might take longer to find a partner in a world of instant gratification and poor morals but most people – men included – end up wishing for a relationship. Wait until you and your mates turn 35-40 and what you want/what you can get is going to change : )
         
        You doth protest too much. You guys are trying to lower standards even lower than they already got. Don’t worry, there will always be a supply of women to have sex with with no courthsip required (low self-esteem women and women enjoying casual sex at a specific time of their life), and there will always be a supply of emotionally available men of good character to build solid relationships with. The only difference is that it’s most effective for women to get into the serious track at an younger age than men, therefore educating them is more important than educating men.

    4. 46.4
      RacheL

      Tom,
      I’ll say one thing in defense of the non-courters or MRA types. Maybe theres a understandable annoyance at how guys are looked at as dispensable or replacable–so that if one guy doesnt court, the woman shud just toss him for a guy who does! and forget how charismatic or smart he is, and all that! there was that beyonce song lyrics ‘i can have another u in a min, in fact he’ll be here any min” and i HATED those lyrics.–>the man had cheated on her, but still how snarky and stuckup did that sound??
       
      wat Evan is saeing is not that all men are replacable and that your individual good points dont matter, but that for relationshp-wanting women, all that other stuff should not matter to a woman so much, its about how he treats u! i think he saed its whats ‘attractive’ vs whats ‘important’. Gd advice ;)

  16. 47
    Lynn (the other one!)

    How about if we replace the apparently loaded word ‘courting’ with ‘treating the other person well’? Would you seriously make the argument that you should treat the woman poorly because you think it’ll raise your estimation in her eyes?

    Would you feel admired or respected  if the woman treated you like shit? 

    I’m just imagining you making the same point about, say, your workplace. Or at a job interview. Would it fly? Of course not. Is your personal life not as important to you?

    Evan’s concept of effective vs ineffective is very straightforward and it applies to your entire life not just dating. 

  17. 48
    Morpheus

    Amen. There has been a ridiculous discussion going on at a Men’s Rights Activist blog about my courtship post – nearly 1000 comments telling me that my 35-55 year old women are overvaluing themselves for insisting on displays of courtship. Quite the contrary.

    Evan, if you read these comments closely, you’ll see probably 10 different operating definitions of “courtship”.  It still isn’t clear to me exactly what the hell we are talking about with “courtship”.  I think for you, you used the example of paying for dinner.  In this day and age, when women make their own money, there is no need to pay for their dinner.  There are some other things that I see as perfectly fine for the guy to do such as lead and plan the date.  So for clarity, what are your top 5-10 specific items that are “displays of courtship”.

    Regarding “value”, you are making the mistake of conflating sexual/mating market value with value as a human being.  I personally would never suggest that a woman has lesser value as a human being because she is older and overweight.  But if you can say with a straight face that 55-year old overweight woman has the same market value strictly in terms of mating as a 25-year old Sports Illustrated model, then I want some of that to smoke as well.

    Anyways, I have no issue whatsoever in anyone telling women whatever they want with respect to what they are entitled.  More power to it.  Have at it, and accept the consequences of whatever strategies you employ, male or female.  I think in this post though, you deviated from your bread and butter of advising women, and stepped into the fray of telling men what they OUGHT to do.  Many men, rightfully so, are going to push back hard on any message or messenger that tries to shame or cajole them into “being a real man”, “courting a women properly”, especially if quite frankly it is unnecessary to achieving their personal objectives. 

    1. 48.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Morpheus, I stayed out of the comment section on that blog for a reason. It was like arguing with a bunch of angry, entitled children who were so convinced that they were “right” that they didn’t concede the possibility that there was another valid perspective. Dr. Jeremy came on and offered a reasonable, moderate approach, and was similarly excoriated.

      We are simply at an impasse, my friend. The working premise of most of your readers is that:

      a) Women are unappreciative takers.
      b) Women are worthless after 30.
      c) Women’s primary value is sex.

      I disagree on all three fronts, as would most women, whose opinion somewhat matters if you’re going to date them. As such, I’m not exactly sure what room there is for negotiation.
      You make a logical point that women make their own money, and should therefore not expect courtship. I would agree that courtship is technically unfair, but its place in society is so ingrained that most men would be wise to suck it up and play by the rules. When you say that men should not court because you don’t like it, you’re trying to change society. Which is fine, but is really no different than women saying that men “should not sleep with me if he has no long term intentions”. Telling society how it “should” act is largely futile. Both feminists and MRAs need to understand that men and women are different but equal. And women can browbeat men who like having sex with no emotion…and men can browbeat women who want to have a guy display his sincere intentions by being consistent and generous…but it doesn’t change the facts on the ground. Men want sex. Women want chivalry. If men want sex with a high quality woman, it’s in his interest to display chivalry – otherwise, she will dispense of him. If women want to be with high quality men, they have to understand that attraction and appreciation matter and demonstrate both. This is at the very core of what I teach here – and I don’t even know what there is to argue with.

      If you were to advise women, you would say the same thing that I would – unless you think that it’s in a woman’s best interest to go out with a man who thinks that she should call, she should pay, she should have sex without attachment, and she should make him a sandwich before he kicks her out at age 30 – which is pretty much all I heard on that blog.

      Thus, it doesn’t matter if a 60 year old woman has the same “market value” as a 25 year old. She doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean she should consent to men who disrespect her and treat her poorly. All women should expect men to call in advance, make a plan, pick up the check, and call her the next day. All men should expect that women are warm, interested, appreciative, and affectionate in return. The men who refuse to court – because they think it’s for suckers – will not get my high quality women, and will be relegated to go out with low self esteem women who think it’s acceptable for her to essentially “court” him. Your readers are what Eben Pagan called “average frustrated chumps” who don’t seem to understand that you can be a nice guy, treat women well, and still get laid – it all comes down to having confidence. Confident men treat women well. Your guys want to buck the trend by having women prove themselves to you. Just know that you’re only going to get bottom of the barrel women with that stance.

      1. 48.1.1
        Morpheus

        Morpheus, I stayed out of the comment section on that blog for a reason. It was like arguing with a bunch of angry, entitled children who were so convinced that they were “right” that they didn’t concede the possibility that there was another valid perspective. Dr. Jeremy came on and offered a reasonable, moderate approach, and was similarly excoriated.

        For the record, couple of things:

        1 .  I’m a big fan of Dr. J, and agree he offers a reasonable approach.  I posted a comment that many of the comments appeared to be misinterpreting him.

        2.  Just because a comment is there, doesn’t mean I agree with it or endorse it.  I’m a firm believer in freedom of speech and freedom of thought so we (the 4 bloggers) basically do not censor, moderate, or delete comments unless they are spam, vicious personal attacks, or trolling.  There are a lot of comments posted that I disagree with.
         
        You make a logical point that women make their own money, and should therefore not expect courtship. I would agree that courtship is technically unfair, but its place in society is so ingrained that most men would be wise to suck it up and play by the rules.

        Being “unfair” isn’t the issue…that is small potatos.  The issue is it doesn’t work.  We got a commenter in his mid 20s, brilliant guy, recently married, and he often shares stories about his buddies who are your basic good decent guys.  They do the traditional courting and bascially don’t land dates 2 or 3.  What you are NOT understanding or perhaps don’t want to admit, is if you cannot generate attraction, chemistry, tingles, then courtship is worthless.  And if you can do those things, you don’t need to court, you’ll have plenty of takers minus the courting.  That is just the flat out market reality, fair or not fair.

        When you say that men should not court because you don’t like it, you’re trying to change society. Which is fine, but is really no different than women saying that men “should not sleep with me if he has no long term intentions”. Telling society how it “should” act is largely futile.

        Nope.  Not “telling society” anything.  Simply telling individual men you don’t have to do X to get what you want.

        And women can browbeat men who like having sex with no emotion…

        They could do so, but it wouldn’t matter.  Generally speaking, a guy who is sexually successful has a personality makeup that people or women trying to browbeat or shame him has zero impact.

        nterest to display chivalry – otherwise, she will dispense of him.

        If women want to be with high quality men, they have to understand that attraction and appreciation matter and demonstrate both. This is at the very core of what I teach here – and I don’t even know what there is to argue with.

        No argument at all on this point.  I would really emphasize the appreciation part.  That is one way a woman can stand out from most.

        Again, what I find interesting is with this post, you kind of stepped outside your “mission/business purpose”.  You are addressing men, not women.  Why?  If there are plenty of “high-quality” men doing these things you advocate, and pairing off with your clients, then why do you are if “small-dicked loser low-quality” guys don’t court?  My sense is it is because it in fact is not true…we hear the constant bemoaning “where have all the good men gone”, “why can’t I find a good guy”.  I could type pages and pages on that, but no point to do so.
         
        If you were to advise women, you would say the same thing that I would

        For the record, I think your offer up some good advice, and I agree on a number of things.

        – unless you think that it’s in a woman’s best interest to go out with a man who thinks that she should call, she should pay, she should have sex without attachment,

        Well, we already have women admitting they have sex without attachment with the “in between guys”.  Some guy might rightfully think why should I have to put all this time and courting investment into you when Joe Schmo had sex with you for zero investment.  One of the biggest things in my view that women don’t “get” about men is men generally speaking value highly consistency.  Consistency of beliefs, consistency of action, consistency of decisions, consistent principles applied to all situations.  Many women (NAWALT) have a greater propensity to individualize every situation.  I made decision A for such and such reasons and than made decision B for completely different reasons and it is all perfectly justifiable.  That sort of thinking is going to be a turn-off to many men, including most “high quality” ones.

        . The men who refuse to court – because they think it’s for suckers – will not get my high quality women, and will be relegated to go out with low self esteem women who think it’s acceptable for her to essentially “court” him.

        Well, I guess it is those guys’ loss then, right?  They’ll just have to make do with the “low quality” women.

        1. A Definite Beta Guy

          We got a commenter in his mid 20s, brilliant guy, recently married, and he often shares stories about his buddies who are your basic good decent guys.  They do the traditional courting and bascially don’t land dates 2 or 3.  What you are NOT understanding or perhaps don’t want to admit, is if you cannot generate attraction, chemistry, tingles, then courtship is worthless.  And if you can do those things, you don’t need to court, you’ll have plenty of takers minus the courting.  That is just the flat out market reality, fair or not fair.
          Truth. Again, just to reiterate: if you can’t generate chemistry, then courtship is a waste of time. If you can generate chemistry, then courtship is also a waste of time (because most women will not demand courtship, and if they did you would not need to lecture your readers to demand it).
          Purely my own Anecdata, of course. Your experience may be different, particularly using online dating. I had some friends who used online dating, and also offered various dates that they paid, stupidly relying on the dinner date (rather than something more fun).
          They do not, however, have your writing ability or seemingly reflexive empathy and mirroring. One is a smart architect, but is so stiff that he can’t even relax fully around ME, and both my Wife and I generally feel drained after spending time with him, not excited…I imagine the girls felt worse, which is why he went on a number of first dates, and almost no second dates.
          He ended up falling hard for a smokin’ red-head from Northwestern, who did not like him back, ended up hooking up with other guys extensively, and used him as an emotional tampon.
          This would not have happened had he not tried using online dating…he got a lot of first dates because his profile says “architect” and he looks good in a suit, and bombed after that. He now has a girlfriend, who he met through the traditional Jewish way: Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match. They absolutely adore each other. This is what I recommended to him in the first place.
          Now he may have “courted” after that, but it was proper courting, vetted by the community. Courting in the ACTUAL sense of the word.
          Another friend used online dating fared somewhat more successfully, because he is an attractive clubber (my friends and wife call him “Jersey Shore”). He got a lot of first dates, that led to some extremely aggressive make-outs. But he’s essentially an only-child momma’s boy that needs some lovin’, and smothered every single girl with constant texts. Myself and other friends shook our heads every time we saw him text a girl 6-7 times during a movie.
          He did find a girlfriend, after doing what we call “spinning plates”: he was dating multiple girls at a time and did not get attached to any of them too quickly.
          Of course, Jersey Shore did not really need to use online dating, nor did he need to court, since he had girls practically throwing themselves at him every single weekend.  He’s just a good Catholic boy who doesn’t want “those” girls, and defines quality as “not sleeping casually between relationships.” Among other things. For some reason, none of my guy friends actually think sleeping casually makes a woman “high quality” and think it actually degrades them. So he tried online dating instead.
          Other guys and chemistry…man, my Brother-In-Law generates great chemistry. He’s 6’2, blonde, blue eyed, dresses well, permanent five o’clock shadow, real athletic build. Great chemistry. Whenever we go out with him, girls throw themselves all over him. We went to a coffee shop and a girl sat in his lap for 40 minutes. Great chemistry. I don’t think he’s used to this much girl-attention, he spent his life in a really religious family and then went to a religious engineering college where the ratio was 60-40 male. He’s really hooked on this girl he used to date, who broke up with him because she didn’t like him spending so much time with the guys (and not texting her).
          I have two good co-worker friends, sat next to each other for 2 years, hung out every day, same first name, both huge Bulls fans. Average height, athletic build guys, and I mean actual normal athletic looking. This is not what the average guy looks like, even working out 5 days a week: http://media.portable.tv/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/photo-Crazy-Stupid-Love-ryan-gosling-shirtless-portable.jpeg
          Man, side-note, isn’t it funny how I never hear about male objectification? BOTH of these guys work out 5 days a week because they are SO insecure about their looks. You want crazy fad diet? One of the guys drank nothing but pepper-flavored salt water for two weeks straight, limiting himself to one meal a day. The other is now practically an anorexic, I haven’t seen him eat in a MONTH (He gained a lot of weight at this desk job).
          Anyways, sorry for the side-track! One of these guys is a masculine-looking Italian…practically Mafia, what with his full facial hair. He has a gruff, non-pleasing demeanor with women. The other is an East Asian guy who hides his body because showing off muscles is douche-y, and tries to appeal to people with his extremely good nature and sense of humor.
          We have a lot of female temps and their friends…which one do you think they gravitate towards? I’ve never had a single girl ask for the cuddly Asian guy who just posts pictures with babies on his Facebook, that’s for sure. He just can’t generate any chemistry, although he can get some laughs. He’s a fun guy’s guy that girls just don’t find attractive.
          Telling him to court, will not help. He needs serious help. First, he needs to be more of a jerk and come off less as a care-bear. Second, he needs to SHOW-CASE his muscles. Third, he needs to interact with women more.
          Basically he needs to go to the Beach and hit on 100 girls before summer is over.
          If he wants to court, that’s fine, he can do it AFTER he learns how to generate some real chemistry.
          Side-note, it’s reallllll fun to get all these guys together, and they all realllllllyyyyy like each other. The Wedding was an absolute blast.
          Side-note. Your commenter above asked:
          If you are in a happy, healthy, long-lasting relationship with a woman who chased you, paid for your first dates, asked you to be your boyfriend, please say so and we might start listening to your “male perspective”.
          I am in a happy, healthy, lasting-so-far (3 years isn’t that bad I guess) relationship with a woman who chased me, paid her own way for all of our first hang-outs, asked me to be her boyfriend, and made very clear that she wanted to be with me.
          I wouldn’t have considered her otherwise. Dates and courting don’t excite me at all. I’ve asked out two girls my whole life, and got shot down both times. The latter casually asked me to go with her for a “day-trip” to the Natural History Museum after she dumped her boyfriend, which was a pretty big failure, lol.
          That was never really my biggest problem, though. My biggest problem was my extreme weirdness and interest and lack of chemistry-building traits. My last year of high school girl, a girl chased me down the hallway, and I explained I was in such a rush to talk about Syrian cruise missiles and banking instability. Woops, bad idea! My sophomore year I got really big into 9/11 conspiracy theories, and two girls got interested in me, and I would spend hours talking about how someone must have known something and “buildings don’t collapse like that.” Woops, bad idea!
          That’s definitely not what I was talking about the first night I met my wife.
          Guys do not need to be admonished to court. They need attraction traits. Once they get that, they might not ever court a girl, because there’s a LOT less incentive to do so. Never-married rates are piling up: there’s always going to be single girls out there looking to hook up with a guy, and if you have attraction traits in spades, you don’t need to do a lot to get that.
          On another side note, yes, as a man, I define myself as providing for my close ones. Some girl that I am going on a first date with is NOT close to me, and every dollar I spend on her, is a dollar that I do not spend on my nieces, nephews, sisters, brothers, mother, and father. I do not pride myself on buying lunch for strangers, particularly well-fed strangers with gainful employment. No, I do not define my masculinity by that, because that’s a waste of money, not providing for people.
          I don’t hate women, I don’t advocate for any specific men’s rights, I don’t neg random girls, I don’t hit my Wife, I don’t say that women shouldn’t vote, I don’t tell my Wife to get in the kitchen and make me a sammich (actually I don’t trust her cooking and only give her Crockpot recipes), I’m loyal enough that she trusts me alone with other women in our own bedroom.
          I just don’t like shaming men and giving them bad advice.

      2. 48.1.2
        RacheL

        Morpheus, a general comment on wat i saw.  hundreds of comments on the post so i only skimmed a minority, many are insulting women but actually there -are- reasonable not-insulting comments also! some of the comments make me feel sympathy, becus i realise theyve seen women act badly in some wae and that made them distrust women. thats sad!

         a key problem is many of those guys do what i saw Evan tell women here to -not- do, which is they blame all women for bad actions of some, and treat all women badly! its unfair when men or women do it and will not work with good confident partners! ull eliminate the best people jus by doing that!

        thanks for agreeing that women being appreciative matters. its nice to noe that men appreciate women being appreciative, lol! i agree its SO important for there to be appreciation+respect. noone owes women dinners and chivalrous behaviors.

        “The issue is it doesn’t work” Morpheus, it does, it works with majority of the female posters here (who i admit are just several women) and among those courted regularly, we will not accept anything less, becus–Why would we??

        ” if you cannot generate attraction, chemistry, tingles, then courtship is worthless.  And if you can do those things, you don’t need to court, you’ll have plenty of takers minus the courting.” i have some agreement with that. but to me, the courtship Does often generate the attraction! and the “takers” for non-courters are mostly women who havent been regularly courted, i think…
        thats another sad thing i saw on the ‘MRA’ page, many men who say women will immediately fall into bed with hot alpha instead of sleeping with the beta guy–even if hes cute and financially stable! even if shes dating/married to cute beta guy! i DONT, and even in my lost-n-clueless years i never did that, it seemed stupid and pointless even to me! PLS try to tell your readers that many women dont act like that! too cynical!

        u kinda sae Evan misleads women that many ‘high-quality’ men court when its not true. nope, its true that there’re many great men courting. i and my friends have Never saed ‘where have all good men gone”. im not a ‘top quality’ woman, just the pretty but not stunning, kwite logical but not brilliant type of woman, lol! and its enuff to get great men courting…i think this seems mostly a intellectual argument, people here will continue doing what they do if the results work for them. Evan is trying to tell those minority of women here putting up with bad behavior, to hold out for a good guy!

    2. 48.2
      sandra

      Evan never stated or implied that a 55 yr old ( or whatever age) overweight or less conventionally attractive etc, has the same SMV as a 25 yr old , but that she should expect the same level of treatment and courtship behavior by a man who is interested in her, regardless of the real/perceived SMV.  Because a woman is older, fatter, less attractive, does not mean she should accept or tolerate sub-standard behavior from men, unless she wants to.  

    3. 48.3
      Jenna

      Morpheus: 

      Look, sweetheart, could you stop using this legendarily excellent science-fiction classic to promote your delusional “red pill” (a term I use very loosely)  bullshit?  Seeing such a great, great, great work of science-fiction becoming associated with all this “men’s right/ red pill dating!” horseshit nonsense offends me as a fan of science-fiction.   Sweetheart,  have you even *watched* that movie?  Or did you all just choose to associate yourselves with that film because you think it makes you seem “kewl?”

      Honeybear, you and Morpheus don’t even have anything in common with each other, which is why I’m left scratching my head as to why you thought it would be an appropriate username to use here.    The way in which MRAs use the term “red pill” is a huge misnomer, to say the least.   Morpheus gave Neo the red pill to wake him up to the actual reality of the situation he was in.  I don’t see what the MRA community or “red pill dating advice” has to do with the actual reality of sex and dating — it’s just a bunch of angry bitter men venting over a bunch of delusional nonsense.  Nope, the horseshit that you’re spoon-fed over at the MRA blogs is not something to be conflated with “the red pill” of the Matrix films.  Wake up, think for yourself, and stop being so gullible. 

      Choose a different username, sugarcakes.   If you’re going to shit your delusional personal ideas about sex all over a famous movie, couldn’t you have chosen a shittier movie to appropriate?   If you truly feel compelled to appropriate an epically great work of science fiction, couldn’t you at least make an effort to UNDERSTAND said work of science fiction?   

    4. 48.4
      Fusee

      @Morpheus
       
      For me courtship is the stage between first contact and declaration of exclusivity. This being said men do not need to be cajoled into courtship, just reminded that it’s the most effective strategy to get high-quality women. Most relationship-minded guys already “court” anyway. The reason why it’s in a man’s advantage to “court” (meaning to me: initiate contact, plan and pay the first few inexpensive dates, and ask for exclusivity if that’s what they want) is because it will allow him to 1. have sex with higher-quality women, 2. find the best woman possible for a long-term relationship.
       
      If like Tom10 you are satisfied with the kind of women you can have casual sex with, and/or if you are not interested in a relationship, then do not court women. Easy. The absence of courtship is a strong message that you’re indeed not interested in anything serious, so I’d rather you not court if you’re into casual sex. However if you want to have access to higher-quality women (for either sex or relationship), then courtship is most effective them because those women will not give you the time of day with random texts and going dutch before they are your girlfriend. Don’t forget that we confident women know your default goal is *just sex*, so we’re not impressed with a “let’s hang out at my place and watch a movie” kind of deal : )
       
      I agree that they are different types of people, and happy, healthy, long-lasting relationships are formed between compatible/comparable partners whereas casual sex being based on “high chemistry” does not need compatibility or comparability. For a relationship (not for casual sex), women and men must be realistic about what they can bring to the table at each season of their life. However character and behavior are independant of looks, age, income, fertility, weight, popularity, etc. Character can always be developed and behavior can always be improved (and the desire to grow is essential for a successful long-term relationship), so holding out for the best possible character and behavior possible when you offer the same in return is perfectly reasonable, for both women and men looking for a relationship.
       
      High-quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships, but will only consider for relationships men who treat them seriously. By refusing courtship men limit themselves to women who would not want anything else with them anyway (which is pretty much only younger bright women, so they would only be available to men younger than 35 or so) or women of way lower “market value” than themselves.
       
      See, it’s about intelligence, not being cajoled.

      1. 48.4.1
        NASHWC

        High-quality women do not “have casual sex in their twenties”. And who defines what a “High-Quality” woman is? High-Quality men. #classdimissed

      2. 48.4.2
        deti

        Fusee:

        High-quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships, but will only consider for relationships men who treat them seriously. By refusing courtship men limit themselves to women who would not want anything else with them anyway (which is pretty much only younger bright women, so they would only be available to men younger than 35 or so) or women of way lower “market value” than themselves.”

        I find this statement fascinating, given the stated goal here of women wanting love and relationships.  

           Why would a “high quality woman” want casual sex? 

        With what kinds and sorts of men would a “high quality” woman have casual sex?

        Would a “high quality” woman have casual sex with the same kinds of men with whom she would seek relationships? 

        Is there such a thing as a “low quality” woman?   Does the seeking of casual sex make a woman a “low quality” woman?             

      3. 48.4.3
        Fusee

        Ok, I’m going to clarify it once for all: I, Fusee, do not engage in casual sex! I was merely reporting comments I read in this section over the years, so I can’t respond to questions about that kind of mindset.
         
        The fact that some confident women (“high-quality” as defined by Evan @50.1) looking for a relationship would go for casual sex with someone they would have ruled out as a boyfriend while still dating other men seriously is one of the most puzzling discovery I made in the comments section of this blog! It’s one thing to have casual sex during some seasons of your life but another to have it WHILE also being on the serious track. I have to admit that it bothers me as it conflicts with the value of integrity, but it does not bother everyone!
         
        Each person defines “high-quality” as they see fit. For me it’s about character, not only with me but others, not only at this time but in the past and future too. Some people do not care about past behaviors and choices, some people do. To each their own. Dating will reveal people’s character and past, and allow partners to make an educated decision about whether they want to make a lifetime commitment or not.

      4. 48.4.4
        Henriette

        @Fusee 48.4: I beg you to qualify your statement of “High-quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships”  with “SOME high-quality women…” 
         
        I know many women, myself included, who have never slept with men who weren’t their boyfriends.  I have no issue with women who have casual sex but I’m always shocked by how many men don’t believe that we (non-casual sex-having women) actually exist.  I think much Manosphere rage stems from their certainty that all women are having heaps of casual sex during their most attractive and fertile years and they, the Red Pillers, are being excluded.

  18. 49
    Karmic Equation

     
    @Evan & FuseeI agree in principle to what you say about courting, but you both have GOT to stop equating “high quality” women with women who don’t have sex until “exclusivity”.
     
    I don’t perceive it that way, and IIRC, Evan had responded to another of my posts that waiting for exclusivity to have sex was for women who “couldn’t handle a guy disappearing after sex”. 

    To me that means that women who need seclusivity for sex are insecure or fearful. They don’t believe that the power of their personality will keep a man from disappearing, so they need a promise that he’ll stick around before they do the deed. So, if interpreted THAT way, women who need sexclusivity to have sex are not “higher quality” women. In fact, I could say they’re lower quality women who lack confidence in their personality. Because they tie their value to sex not to their personality.

    Having said that, I understand why men hate the word courting. It sounds old-fashioned and they’re being made to “perform” for an unclear outcome.

    I don’t want another puppy dog. I already have three. Men don’t need to “court” me, but they have to find a way to spend time with me in order to try to get in my pants. And for me to decide whether or not I’ll let them into said pants, I need to spend time with them. Whatever you want to call that “spending time” together is what counts in my book. 

    The paying for dates is pure economics. I like sushi and other expensive meals, so I’m willing to foot my part of that bill. If it’s apps and drinks, I think he should foot it. If a woman is truly interested in equality and finding love, what does it matter who pays? AS LONG AS YOU’RE SPENDING TIME TOGETHER?

    All that said, I think there IS inherent value in “courting” and waiting for sex, but not because a woman who waits for sex is inherently valuable. But rather giving a man incentive to chase her creates a thrill for him as well. Men may not like courting, but most men love the chase. Giving in too fast kills the thrill of the chase for him and for the woman. I just figured that out for myself through some trial and error and post-mortems :)

    So I guess I would encourage the jaded men like Tom10 and Morpheus to “court” women, not because women like it, but because the chase itself can be a lot of fun for YOU. If you court right, sex is a done deal. It’s just a matter of time. If you truly excel at courting, she will burn hotter than the sun for you when the deal is finally sealed ;)

    1. 49.1
      Lynn (the other one!)

      @Karmic, I often agree with your comments (even if I haven’t explicitly said so) but I gotta say this one’s a doozy:

      To me that means that women who need seclusivity for sex are insecure or fearful. They don’t believe that the power of their personality will keep a man from disappearing, 

      It equates “not being able to handle it” with being fearful or insecure. Ain’t so. In fact, knowing that sexclusivity isn’t often a very popular policy with men and still adhering to it despite knowing there’s a possibility of a big negative reaction takes a lot of confidence and security.

      “Not being able to handle it”  is more like “disappointed, tired of it, feel shitty about it”. As Evan says, for some women it’s just ineffective. Not “I’m so insecure I have to insist he stick around”. Insecure would be giving in to the pressure to have sex in circumstances that aren’t acceptable to me, as half of the twosome.

      It also assumes that somehow personality power can override a guy’s sexual drive in the moment. I’d be curious to know if this is a common happening. I doubt it but I’m willing to be proven wrong. I don’t mean it happens as the exception. Is it the rule that the power of a woman’s personality will keep a guy around when he’s solely focused on sex?  
       

      1. 49.1.1
        Karmic Equation

         

        “In fact, knowing that sexclusivity isn’t often a very popular policy with men and still adhering to it despite knowing there’s a possibility of a big negative reaction takes a lot of confidence and security… ‘Not being able to handle it”  is more like “disappointed, tired of it, feel shitty about it’. “


         
        I hear you Lynn. But in this case WHY a woman needs sexclusivity is more important than that she asks for it or walks away from it. Just as WHY a woman has NSA sex says more about her self-esteem than the fact that she has NSA sex.
         
         
        If a woman “can’t handle [NSA sex]” because she feels “bad” or “disappointed” after NSA sex, then her REASONs for having sex was because she implicitly wanted/expected SOMETHING ELSE in return for sex. She’s “using” sex to validate her partner potential or she’s using sex to jumpstart a relationship or using sex to keep a man interested or any number of reasons. This woman is un-self-aware and has poor boundaries, which will contribute to low self-esteem. Therefore, if a woman AVOIDS NSA sex for this reason, it’s NOT because she’s confident and secure, it’s because she’s AVOIDING behavior that makes her feel bad. That’s not an indication of confidence or security. It indicates she has self-control BUT that self-control is not that she can control her sex drive but rather that she has good self-control at refraining from behavior that causes her pain. And you know what, most people have this ability, so there is nothing special about woman who avoids NSA sex for this reason. It’s like avoiding sticking your hand into an open flame on the stove. Most people are extraordinarily good at avoiding that. That doesn’t make them confident and secure. Same thing with people who avoid NSA sex for religious reasons. Their “fear” of offending God is greater than their fear of offending a potential partner. It doesn’t indicate confidence or security, just a choice of a lesser of two evils in their minds. We can all do that too.
         
         
        “It also assumes that somehow personality power can override a guy’s sexual drive in the moment…Is it the rule that the power of a woman’s personality will keep a guy around when he’s solely focused on sex?”
         
         
        Many women’s behavior changes after she has sex with a man, even when there’s been no sexclusivity talk. She texts more often, expecting instant responses. She’s more clingy/needy; she believes she’s “entitled” to his time, his schedule, his affection simply because she’s had sex with him. She expects him to feel the same “bonding” she felt, as if the oxytocin high she got is transferable over air into him. This behavior change transforms the sexy cool girl she was before sex into “clingy, demanding woman” after sex…every guy’s biggest fear.
         
         
        So if a woman is self-aware and has confidence and continues to treat the guy as she did before sex, that totally blows him away and that guy sticks around because that is unusual behavior. And then if the woman continues to demonstrate she’s sane and kind and sweet yada yada, he’s going to come back for more of her. He’s NOT going to disappear.
         
         
        Now is this guy going to “commit” and become the boyfriend simply because of her remaining sane after sex? That depends on the woman’s personality, their common interests, how they communicate and resolve differences, and, most importantly, whether he’s in the headspace for a monogamous relationship. If he was already there, then yes he will. If he was not there and you’re unusual enough, then he might in spite of himself. But the thing is once it’s clear he’s not “disappearing”, YOU then gain the opportunities of asking him where his head is at about relationships and if he says he’s not looking for anything serious, YOU get to decide to either continue seeing him NSA or say “Thanks, but no thanks.” So yes, your personality CAN stop a man from disappearing but NO, it doesn’t guarantee that he’ll commit. BUT your personality has PREVENTED him from disappearing, which is what you wanted to avoid in the first place as that’s what caused you pain. And thus leaves YOU in the driver’s seat to next HIM because he’s not giving you want you really want. In other words, your personality gained you the power of nexting him. You’re the decision maker of whether to continue the relationship or not. Not him.

         

        1. Fusee

          @Karmic Equation: “So if a woman is self-aware and has confidence and continues to treat the guy as she did before sex, that totally blows him away and that guy sticks around because that is unusual behavior. And then if the woman continues to demonstrate she’s sane and kind and sweet yada yada, he’s going to come back for more of her. He’s NOT going to disappear.”
           
          He would be insane to disappear if he gets sex from an easy-going, fun, and kind women!!! What’s going to happen next is one of two options: 1. He really like you and wants you all to himself, so he asks you to be his girlfriend, 2. He just kind of likes you and because you’re available for sex without any need of “boyfriend behavior” he keeps you as an easy-going f*ck buddy.
           
          Ask yourself why he comes back for more while NOT caring what you are doing with other men : )
           
          (PS: As we’ve already discussed it, I like your comments and perspectives, I’m not judging, and I’m happy you’re happy with your dating method!)

        2. Karmic Equation

           
          “He just kind of likes you and because you’re available for sex without any need of “boyfriend behavior” he keeps you as an easy-going f*ck buddy.”
           
          Who says there’s no bf behavior? We go out on dates. He cooks for me. This last winter, he spent 3 hours shoveling out my house when I would have happily paid my landscaper to do it. But no, he didn’t want me spending that kind of money when he was willing to do it. We talk about our days. Give advice to each other. Complain about work. We’ve had fights and resolved them. We hang out without sex being involved (sometimes lol). 
           
          I get the boyfriend behaviors. I just don’t get monogamy. He’s a hot 30. I’m a hot 47 :) But there’s no future in this relationship as we’ll never get married. I don’t want to meet his parents (who are likely just a little older than I am…can we say awkward if we ever met?) so why get hung up on monogamy? Particularly because it makes sense for ME to be free to look for a committed boyfriend cuz who knows how much longer I’ll stay hot. LOL I just have to be ok with him dating other women. Most of the time I am. Sometimes I’m not.
           
          When the I’m not ok with it surpasses my being ok with it, I’ll end the relationship. But it’s still my choice to be in this one until then. He can’t be my f*ck buddy if I don’t let him f*ck me, right? The reality is, we’re real buddies, not just f*ck buddies, and there is a genuine friendship and caring between us. I’d say that other than the lack of monogamy, he treats me better than most “monogamous” bfs and hubbies treat the Letter Writers who write to Evan.
           
          What we have isn’t a monogamous relationship, but we DO have a relationship that we both value. If a woman doesn’t need to get married, is happy, has a fulfilling life, can have NSA sex, there’s no reason to get hung up on finding “the one” or being the one for another guy. What really matters is that you only have men in your life who treat you well.

           

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          What you’re missing, KE, is that most women don’t need advice on having NSA sex with men. They are frustrated that they have NSA sex that doesn’t lead to relationships. You need to stop imposing your values on these women and understand where they are coming from. If a woman doesn’t want to have NSA sex, choosing men who “court” and saving sex for commitment is just about the only solution for her. Telling her to be confident and fuck whomever she wants is pretty tone deaf to her needs.

    2. 49.2
      Fusee

      Hi Karmic Equation!
       
      I do not equate “high-quality” women with women who don’t have sex until “exclusivity”. Morpheus below @50 asked what a high-quality woman is and Evan replied to him, so no need for me to do it again. I’d simply add that it indeed has nothing to do with when you have sex. To me it’s not so much about the specifics but more about knowing yourself and your values in life and being confident to stand up for them, in every area of your life, regardless of how much instant gratification you have to give up with. So basically you are a high-quality woman who enjoys casual or non-exclusive sex, and I am a high-quality woman who does not (at least in this stage of my life).
       
      Also, FYI the reason why I do not enjoy casual sex is 1. because being nude and having an orgasm make me feel vulnerable (in a good way though) and I prefer being vulnerable with someone I know and trust, 2. in order for man to find love on their quest for sex he needs to become emotionally connected to his woman, and I find more effective to test for/establish that connection before the distraction of sex.

  19. 50
    Morpheus

    For me courtship is the stage between first contact and declaration of exclusivity. 

    This statement says nothing about what behaviors and actions are expected of men to constitute “courtship”.  Do you expect a man to pay for 100% of all dates in this time period?

     If like Tom10 you are satisfied with the kind of women you can have casual sex with, and/or if you are not interested in a relationship, then do not court women. Easy. The absence of courtship is a strong message that you’re indeed not interested in anything serious,

    Exactly right, which is why I always counsel/advise men to keep it casual in beginning stages.  It is a lot easier to flip a casual arrangement into a serious relationship, then start off with the heavy “courting” behavior and try to flip it casual.  In fact, I’d say the latter is pretty damn near impossible.  FWIW, my wife and I started out as casually dating and it eventually turned into a serious relationship when I realized she was the type of woman that I was willing to sacrifice multiple casual arrangements for. 

     High-quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships, but will only consider for relationships men who treat them seriously. 

    I am very glad you made this statement.  First let me ask you (and any others here) a pointed question.  You keep using the term “high-quality” woman.  First, tell me the top 5 attributes of a quality woman.  Better yet, tell me what you think they are from a male POV.  Second, if you use that term, then the opposite must exist.  There is no dark without light.  So if “high-quality” women exist, there are “low-quality women”.  What attributes do you think they have?

    To your casual sex comment, there is another woman blogger on sex and dating who steadfastly maintains that 80-90% of women are ONLY interested in having sex inside committed relationships, and only 10-20% of women engage in casual sex outside relationships.  My view is that is total hogwash/nonsense so I am glad you were able to support/confirm my view.  You mention that women will have sex “in between relationships”.  I agree, and one thing many guys are interested in is figuring out how to be that “in between guy” who gets the sex without having to bother with the courtship stuff.  What traits and attributes do you think are shared by the “in between guys”, and what would you look for in an “in between guy”.  Thanks. 

    1. 50.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Morpheus,

      High quality women are:

      a) smart enough to make their own way in the world
      b) attractive enough for men to show interest in having sex
      c) confident enough to insist on being treated as a human being/potential wife instead of a piece of ass
      d) wise enough to be the kind of woman worth courting: feminine, optimistic, understanding, self-aware, supportive, accepting.
      e) experienced enough to communicate her wants and needs and be an equal partner within a relationship.

      Women who are not these things will struggle with men. I don’t coach women on how to reverse the aging process; I coach them on a) being worthy of commitment and b) choosing commitment oriented men. Which brings me to this golden nugget:

      “One thing many guys are interested in is figuring out how to be that “in between guy” who gets the sex without having to bother with the courtship stuff.”

      100%. But as a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women who want love, those men are of no use to me. Why should I teach women to appreciate such men, respect such men, or understand such men? For their LTR purposes, they are “low quality men” – even if they’re smart, funny, charismatic, and rich. You and your MRAs seem to have a hard time understanding why my women wouldn’t want your men. Just read the comments on your blog. Why would any relationship oriented woman be with men who thought so little of women in general? Would you want to be with a woman who thought so little of men in general?

      1. 50.1.1
        Morpheus

        Morpheus,
        High quality women are:
        a) smart enough to make their own way in the world
        b) attractive enough for men to show interest in having sex
        c) confident enough to insist on being treated as a human being/potential wife instead of a piece of ass
        d) wise enough to be the kind of woman worth courting: feminine, optimistic, understanding, self-aware, supportive, accepting.
        e) experienced enough to communicate her wants and needs and be an equal partner within a relationship.

        No major disagreement on any of these.  Bet you didn’t think I’d say that, huh?

        a is fine, although a woman of average intelligence can be “high-quality” as well.  The value of intelligence is greatly overestimated, and I say that as someone who is in the top 1% of IQ.  I’d gladly trade IQ points for some other things if I could.  It is even less important for a wife.  Most men want loving wifes, they aren’t looking to hire an analyst who is an Excel modeling wizard.  Intelligence can also be a massive drawback in a potential wife if for example the intelligence is used to be a pretentious know it all trying to show up the man and incessantly argue with him.

        b&c, yes, no prob there

        d, yes

        e, yes and no, wants and needs will often come into conflict in a relationship, how they are resolved is 100x more important than the fact they are successfully communicated. 

         Why should I teach women to appreciate such men, respect such men, or understand such men? 

        Who said you should?  I certainly did not.  I’m not advising women.  I’m all for you telling women to only choose “committment oriented men”.  To the extent that they actually do so, that sends a powerful market signal.  Here is the deal.  If the vast majority of women actually followed what you teach, then most men would respond to that. 

         For their LTR purposes, they are “low quality men” – even if they’re smart, funny, charismatic, and rich. 

        Take a guy who is tall, good-looking, charistmatic and funny but highly committment averse and emotionally unavailable.  Now take a guy who is short, average looking, kind of bland personality, but very much interested in committment.  Put them in same room with all the women you coach.  Who do those women flock to?   

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Morpheus @ 51.1.1.1said “Take a guy who is tall, good-looking, charistmatic and funny but highly committment averse and emotionally unavailable.  Now take a guy who is short, average looking, kind of bland personality, but very much interested in committment.  Put them in same room with all the women you coach.  Who do those women flock to?  “
          I can’t speak for all women, but for me, my answer is none of the above. 

    2. 50.2
      Fusee

      @Morpheus:
       
      Do you expect a man to pay for 100% of all dates in this time period?” I do not have any expectation, and I always offer to split, but I take his assertive offer to pay as a clear sign of interest. However I always propose tea/coffee for a first date – even if he asks for dinner – to keep his investment low. In my experience every man I have ever dated has offered to pay for the first few dates. I made the mistake once to grab the bill and forcefully pay on a first date when I was young and clueless (I wanted to show how counter-cultural and independant I was hehehe), but I learned my lesson : ) What I expect though is to either be exclusive from the get-go or to become exclusive after a few dates (maybe 3-4) because I am that good hehehe. If it does not happen by then, I’m out. If it happen by then, I start paying and might end up spending more on him than he did on me : ) But it’s all in the past now, I have not dated in 3 years… my husband keeps me quite busy!
       
      I always counsel/advise men to keep it casual in beginning stages.  It is a lot easier to flip a casual arrangement into a serious relationship“. And me, I always advice women who are looking for a relationship to do a graceful exit when the guy treats them casually for more than a few dates : ) I also advice men looking for a relationship to be brave and call a date a date instead of a “hang-out” which means nothing and is very confusing. My husband and other men I have dated in the past have found themselves friend-zoned because of such misunderstanding. They thought they were on the sex track while the girl was hanging out with them as buddies. Happened to me too, the guy said hanging out, I was like “cool, I have a new buddy!”. Once I got it, I stopped giving my number to guys lacking clarity of intent. I. do. not. hang. out.
       
      First, tell me the top 5 attributes of a quality woman.  Better yet, tell me what you think they are from a male POV“. Evan has already replied, and male preferences can differ, but here are 5 attributes that my husband found impossible to resist: 1. being fiercely trustworthy and loyal, 2. being passionate in bed and eager to please him in various ways (and being committed to continue long-term, not drop it after the wedding : ), 3. being sensitive, an excellent listener, refraining from unrequested advice-giving, while still standing up to him when he is being unreasonable, 4. having excellent financials, being frugal and bringing no debt and quite a lot of assets for my age/income level, 5. having the same goals and values in how to live life. I picked the 5 most important, but I could go on.
       
      What traits and attributes do you think are shared by the “in between guys”, and what would you look for in an “in between guy”. No idea because I do not do that. I just read comments from confident women who admit to sleep casually with guys they have deemed not boyfriend-material. Personally my values are universal, and do not change based on the weather or how the guy looks like.

  20. 51
    Chance

    EMK said,





    “High quality women are:
    a) smart enough to make their own way in the world
    b) attractive enough for men to show interest in having sex
    c) confident enough to insist on being treated as a human being/potential wife instead of a piece of ass
    d) wise enough to be the kind of woman worth courting: feminine, optimistic, understanding, self-aware, supportive, accepting.
    e) experienced enough to communicate her wants and needs and be an equal partner within a relationship.”




    This should serve the most important takeaway for any woman reading this.  This describes probably about 5-10% of the female population.  Strive to be this kind of woman, and you will separate yourself from 90-95% of women out there (focus especially on item ‘d’).  Then, you aren’t going to have to worry about the lack of men courting you.  Men will find you, they will choose you, and they will court you.  All of the other posts in this blog entry are completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things.  It has been said repeatedly that men look for sex and find love.  If you become this kind of woman, you will be where he finds love.
     

    1. 51.1
      RacheL

      very true, Chance! ^^

  21. 52
    Morpheus

    Morpheus: 
    Look, sweetheart, could you stop using this legendarily excellent science-fiction classic to promote your delusional “red pill” (a term I use very loosely)  bullshit?

    Oh, for sure, no prob, especially since you asked so nicely…Ummm. NO.
     
    Seeing such a great, great, great work of science-fiction becoming associated with all this “men’s right/ red pill dating!” horseshit nonsense offends me as a fan of science-fiction.

    Well, I guess you’ll have to find a way to get over it.

    Honeybear, you and Morpheus don’t even have anything in common with each other, which is why I’m left scratching my head as to why you thought it would be an appropriate username to use here.  

    Well, I guess I’ll leave you scratching your head.

     The way in which MRAs use the term “red pill” is a huge misnomer, to say the least.  

    Seriously?  Thanks for clueing me in.  I’ll get right on correcting that for you.

    Morpheus gave Neo the red pill to wake him up to the actual reality of the situation he was in.  I don’t see what the MRA community or “red pill dating advice” has to do with the actual reality of sex and dating

    You wouldn’t get it, and are not ready to be unplugged if ever.

    Wake up, think for yourself, and stop being so gullible. 

    Honey, I’m the guy that hands out the red pills.  Nobody does thinking for me.

    Choose a different username, sugarcakes.   If you’re going to shit your delusional personal ideas about sex all over a famous movie, couldn’t you have chosen a shittier movie to appropriate?   If you truly feel compelled to appropriate an epically great work of science fiction, couldn’t you at least make an effort to UNDERSTAND said work of science fiction?

    LOL.  My suggestion to you would be to not get so worked up over what some random dude chooses as a moniker on the Internet.  

  22. 53
    Tom10

    @ Lynn (the other one!)
    “I get hit on, both online and ‘in the wild’ (at the hardware store, at dance lessons, at the gym, for example), on a regular basis, by men ranging in age from 28 to 70…”
     
    Yes. But how many of those men are actually prepared to court and marry you? Men hit on a range of women all the time – it doesn’t really mean anything. Proposing, on the other hand, means a lot. That means he values you more than any other woman he could ever potentially date.
     
    “I’ve learned that when I value myself so too do others. My value isn’t determined by a guy decided I don’t have any. That’d just be silly.”
     
    Nice sentiment, but unfortunately a bit deluded. *In dating* you don’t determine your value, men do. Just as in the jobs market you don’t determine your salary, your boss/the market does.
     
    “How about if we replace the apparently loaded word ‘courting’ with ‘treating the other person well’?… Would you feel admired or respected  if the woman treated you like shit?” 
     
    Well just because a guy refuses to court doesn’t mean he is prepared to treat a woman like shit. It just means he will refuse to invest his resources heavily in the initial stages. He can still be polite, courteous and treat her well whilst doing that.

     
    @ FaydedJaded
    I don’t think women  “demand” courtship behavior, but rather some women only ACCEPT courtship behavior”
     
    Semantics. Men will interpret it the same either way. If a guy can get away without courting it is sensible for him to do that. If a woman refuses to accept it she is, in effect, demanding it.
     
    “No one is obligated to acqueise to anything they are not interested in.  Holding out for what you want is not being demanding.  It’s being smart.”
     
    Agreed. But again, you can only hold out for what you have the power to hold out for. Holding out for that which you don’t have to power to obtain is being naïve and will leave you holding out for a long time, i.e. indefinitely.
     
    @ Rachel
    “hi Tom! there may be less popularity of courting in society, but not less courting in my world or in the world of many of the readers here”
     
    Hey Rachel. OK, but your friends are a small sample out of a population of hundreds of millions, thus not really relevant when discussing generalized trends. And – as evidenced from the simple fact that we are having this discussion – it can be inferred that the generalized trend is that courting is declining in popularity.
     
    “U saed of course its good for me. but u ignored how i saed i sincerely feel “we r happy with each other” because we have BOTH met sum1 we like and who is interested in building a good relationshp! that $ he paid is a small early investment when from now on i just wanna be a cheap (in a good way!) date and wanna share expenses.”
     
    Fair enough. He got lucky with you and you’re both happy. I’m happy for you too. But if the first few dates didn’t work out then investing $500 in a failed venture (I don’t mean to reduce it to such terms, but it serves a point) it would have been an inefficient use of resources. Thus it would be irresponsible of me to advise a guy to pursue such a dating strategy. The exception does not proves the rule.
     
    @ Fusee
    “You and your friends have no problem finding women to have casual sex without courting because most of those women do not want to be courted!”
     
    Not necessarily. That’s an assumption on your part. I’m pretty confident that many of them would love me to court them but they don’t have the power to compel me to court them, because I have the power to move onto other women. So they choose to acquiesce to date me casually rather than demand to be courted by a guy who has less power than me – i.e. a lower quality guy (*in dating terms*)
     
    “Sure it might take longer to find a partner in a world of instant gratification and poor morals but most people – men included – end up wishing for a relationship”
     
    Now now Fusee. Poor morals or different morals?
     
    “If like Tom10 you are satisfied with the kind of women you can have casual sex with…. However if you want to have access to higher-quality women”
     
    Are you implying that I don’t have access to higher-quality women? As Karmic said, it would be naïve to think that just because you don’t have casual sex it automatically makes you of higher-quality.
     
    Fusee, you know I usually agree with you, and in this instance I actually still agree with you; as I said I think demanding to be courted is a sensible strategy for women. But for men it just isn’t. However, as this is a blog for women I will accept the overall push for courting as sensible.

     
    @ Karmic Equation
    “So I guess I would encourage the jaded men like Tom10 and Morpheus to “court” women, not because women like it, but because the chase itself can be a lot of fun for YOU”
     
    Hey – I’m not jaded! In fact, I’m bristling with dating vigor at moment! I just happen to agree that courting is a poor dating strategy for men so I simply won’t do it. The chase can be a lot of fun, but chasing the wrong woman is not sensible, thus a poor strategy.
     
    @ Ladies
    You can all sit around all day long calling yourself “high quality women” – and implicitly insinuate that I only date low quality women – as much as you want, but ultimately it doesn’t really matter. Because *in dating* you are not the determinant of whether you are high or low quality; MEN are the arbiters of whether you are high or low quality. Thus, MEN will decide if you are worth courting or not. Conversely *in dating* women will determine which guys are high quality and which aren’t (in other aspects of life you can and should determine your value as a person).
     
    You are just sticking your head in the stand that if you think you can demand to be treated in a certain way and men will bow down and kow-tow to your demands. You don’t control the dating market. The dating market is contingent on both genders; thus your power is limited.
     
    I would be a lot more inclined to accept the arguments of women here pushing for courting, if women here would at least acknowledge the power men have to influence the dating scene – i.e. as much power to call the shots and influence dating trends – as much as women.
     

    1. 53.1
      Julia

      Every man I’ve dated in the past 6 years has done some form of courting, not all men have become my boyfriend. Anyone who offered me less, didn’t get my time. I know you have a hard time accepting this but most men ask women out for dates, pay and follow up if they want to continue to see her.

      Why are you trying to convince women they need to accept less? I have proof that we don’t….. 

    2. 53.2
      Lynn (the other one!)

      Tom, thanks for responding.

      You might be surprised to know that there IS a lot of follow up. I get asked out more than I could possibly have time for. And who says courtship has to lead to a proposal in order to be successful? When I do agree to go out with someone, it’s rare that we make it past a couple of dates. I assume 99 men out of 100 aren’t the right fit for me. It’s not that they’re not themselves valuable, by the way. 

      I think the part you’re missing is that I’m in the demographic that men supposedly don’t value if all they’re interested in is youth, looks, and a lay. And I wish men would do themselves a big favor and stop painting themselves as shallow jerks as though it’s a badge of honor. But that’s another topic.

      Re value: I suppose it all depends on how you define value, yes? My self worth doesn’t rise and fall depending on whether men value me or not. 

      Isn’t courtship all about treating the other person in a way that values them and honors them as individuals? Just how is that different from treating someone well? Many people here have pointed out that courtship isn’t the same as spending loads of money or other resources. If you know your good friend likes to go to a ball game, don’t you sometimes suggest that to your friend? Does that somehow compromise your maleness? If it doesn’t, why would it compromise it to do the same for a woman you’re interested in?

    3. 53.3
      Jenn

      Tom,
      If a person doesn’t value themself, then how can they expect other people to do so? The very reason why I am a high-value woman is because I hold myself to a high standard of behavior. Men don’t decide for me how I’m going to act, or dress, or carry myself. I choose to dress well and act with modesty and reserve. I carry myself with confidence, and I also treat the men who court me well because I know that for my end goal of having a good marriage, this way serves me better. I don’t accept subpar behavior from men, therefore in a way, I do control my own value. I refuse to consort with men who won’t treat me in a way that’s consistent with my standards. If a guy just wants to have a casual hookup, he can mosey on his way to the local nightclub and pick up a fall-down drunk girl whose boobs are hanging out of her dress. If he’s looking for a serious relationship with a good woman, he can court me.

      1. 53.3.1
        Julia

        Please, I understand that some women rate their value on their modesty and chastity but be aware, not everyone values that as you do. I have large breasts and I wear low cut shirts, I’ve had casual sex. I am also a woman worthy of love. I am confident, secure, kind, funny, affectionate, attractive, intelligent, laid back and trusting. These are all things that men value in women. Some men also value chastity and modesty, other men value sexiness. Ultimately, we are all of worth and people who understand their worth are high value. A woman can be a chaste 10 but if she is insecure and comes from a place of fear, she will never be a high quality partner. 

        So to all the men who are asking what a high value woman is, here’s the answer: A woman who knows herself, who is comfortable in who she is, is comfortable in receiving and giving love. A woman who treats her partner with respect, affection, kindness and trust. Everything else is just preferences. And preferences are like butts, we all got em.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Julia,
           
          That’s an awesome reply. I agree with you 1000%.

        2. Jenn

          Julia,
           
          I totally agree with everything you said. I apologize, I really didn’t mean to suggest that I think I deserve love more than women who don’t act the way I do or value chastity the same way. I used that as an example because it’s part of what will set me apart from the rest when it comes to attracting the right man for me. As Doris Langely-Moore put it in her way-before-its-time memoir, The Technique of the Love Affair, “Men will not pursue virtue for virtue’s sake.” So I know that my waiting status alone won’t make guys flock to me. But a man who feels a spark for me and values a chaste woman will likely consider me more preferable than some other of my contemporaries.

    4. 53.4
      Tom10

      @ Julia
      “I know you have a hard time accepting this but most men ask women out for dates, pay and follow up if they want to continue to see her…Why are you trying to convince women they need to accept less? I have proof that we don’t…”

      But I’m not trying to convince women to accept less. In fact, I actually agree with you and Evan that women should be demanding proper treatment from men. But the title of this thread leads one to infer that men don’t court women anymore does it not? If, as you claim, men are still courting as commonly as they did in previous generations then this whole comment thread is a moot point!

      If, however, men are not courting as often as they used to, it might be useful to analyze why. Many male contributors here have explained their reasons why.

      I agree with your comments to Jenn regarding value and chastity.

      @ Lynn (the other one!)
      Thanks for your response.

      “You might be surprised to know that there IS a lot of follow up”

      I have no reason to be surprised that this is the case. I’m genuinely happy for you that you are attaining the results you want.

      “Re value: I suppose it all depends on how you define value, yes?”

      Agreed. But it also depends on how the person you want to date defines value.

      “Isn’t courtship all about treating the other person in a way that values them and honors them as individuals? Just how is that different from treating someone well?”

      I’m not advocating for men to treat women in any way other than well. But the necessity for *courtship* itself is the issue here; not the manner or the quality of said courtship.

      @ Jenn
      “If a person doesn’t value themself, then how can they expect other people to do so?”

      Well I have already made the distinction between one’s value as a person, and one’s value in dating. I agree that it is important for each individual to value themselves as a person worthy of proper treatment.

      “I don’t accept subpar behavior from men, therefore in a way, I do control my own value. I refuse to consort with men who won’t treat me in a way that’s consistent with my standards.”

      I don’t have a problem with that and I think you’re correct to demand that men treat you in a way consistent with your standards. But, do you have men prepared to meet your standards – and who you are attracted to – lining up to court and propose to you? If you have great. If you haven’t…

      Ultimately, what matters is whether each individual is managing to attain their goals. If they are, great, if they aren’t then they will need to reassess and devise a new strategy.

      1. 53.4.1
        Jenn

        Tom,

        The number of men I have lining up to court me is irrelevant. I don’t consider my success to be measured by such a superficial yardstick when in the end, all that matters is that I attract the right man who wants to spend the rest of his life with me. I don’t go out on a ton of dates, but that’s not for lack of attention. Rather, it’s because I screen men heavily and as such, save myself from dealing with guys who don’t have a high interest level in me and aren’t looking for the same things I want. Since my primary way of meeting men is through online dating sites, I don’t know until I meet them whether I’ll feel anything or not. But that’s a normal part of dating – there is risk involved for both parties. Until the MRA men can accept that, they’ll never succeed with women. 

    5. 53.5
      RacheL

      hi Tom, i dont think your dating ‘low-quality’ women at all, you seem smart enuff to use your time better! im sure they have many good points. but you -are- dating women your not considering worthy of courting! & now im curious about what is it they lack that makes u think that wae!
       
      i dont like insulting women who do casual sex! for me i dont becus i am scared a  sex partner may later turn out to be a friend of my boyfriend/husband–yikes! if not, i mite be more keen :)
       
      & yes of course men have power to influence the dating scene–they are half of it! its just that by compromisng on certain requirements, many of Evan’s readers can get kwite ‘high quality’ men (god i hate using such terms, but anywae) that we lyke who want to commit, even if a good chunk of men are not keen in courting. for eg a mans looks dont matter much to me,so i easily get guys with the other traits i value, even though i dont look like a 25 year old beauty queen! :( now if all us women readers wanted young tall dark handsome men with yachts and who spoke 5 languages who proposed in 1 year, then Evans advise wouldnt help us. ;) we need to think about what we need in a man, but to  many of us, gentleman-type behavior is a must!

    6. 53.6
      Tom10

      I just realized that in #53 I wrote “you are just sticking your head in the stand”. Ha, I wonder if that will catch on.

      @ Rachel
      “hi Tom”

      Hi Rachel, you seem so friendly in your comments :)

      “i dont think your dating ‘low-quality’ women at all, you seem smart enuff to use your time better! im sure they have many good points. but you -are- dating women your not considering worthy of courting! & now im curious about what is it they lack that makes u think that wae!”

      Yes fair point. I tripped myself up there by saying that men will value some women high enough to court and others not worth courting. Subsequently saying that I refuse to court women implies that, by default, I only date women not worth courting. Hence lower-value. Hmm.

      The truth is the women I date don’t really lack anything. But my primary goal is not to find a wife. My primary goal is to have sex with beautiful, intelligent, easy-going (how I define “high quality”) women with minimum investment of resources. If I can achieve that goal without courting then it would be unwise for me to court. Luckily I can achieve that goal.

      Now the question is could I have sex with women who are more beautiful, more intelligent and more easy-going (i.e. higher quality by my definition) were I to invest in courting them? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Because – as others have pointed out, my experience has been, in spite of what all the women here claim, most women have sex with guys who give them that tingly feeling, not guys who have demonstrated courtship. Therefore, the courtship itself is a waste.

      Now, as your goal (love/relationship) is different to mine it makes sense for you to employ a different strategy. It makes sense for you to observe the effort a guy is prepared to invest in you, therefore courting makes sense for you.

      So when women here tell men that they need to court women again they are forgetting that many men have a different goal than you, therefore, men would be unwise to follow your advice.

      “yes of course men have power to influence the dating scene–they are half of it! its just that by compromisng on certain requirements, many of Evan’s readers can get kwite ‘high quality’ men…that we lyke who want to commit, even if a good chunk of men are not keen in courting.

      “for eg a mans looks dont matter much to me,”

      But for many women a man’s looks (and other shallow criteria) do matter. For those women their definition of a “high-quality” guy will encompass those criteria. And if they insist on being courted, compromising on looks means, by default, that they will have to date “lower-quality” (by their definition) men.

      “so i easily get guys with the other traits i value…”

      I’m delighted that you are successfully attaining your goals. Btw I agree with Sparkling Emerald above; a woman cooking is a huge turn on (for me).

      @ Jenn
      “The number of men I have lining up to court me is irrelevant. I don’t consider my success to be measured by such a superficial yardstick when in the end, all that matters is that I attract the right man who wants to spend the rest of his life with me.”

      Well I don’t know what yardstick to use to judge your ability to demand courtship from guys you are attracted to so. If your methods are working for you I’m genuinely happy for you.

      @ SparklingEmerald
      “But do you want to pass on a relationship/marriage/family with a nice girl ?… If you are absolutely sure you never want marriage and kids, then fine, but if there’s a tiny part of you that thinks you might, then please re-consider

      Your musings on relationships to Garret at #31 gave me pause for thought so thank you for that comment; as I’m at somewhat of an existential cross-roads myself. I’m kinda getting close to an age where I’ll have to make a decision about whether I can ever go fully down the relationship path or continue to remain single/casual indefinitely. Hmm.

      1. 53.6.1
        Jenn

        Tom, 

        The yardstick I use involves only paying mind to the men who like me and are interested in me. Since my attraction as a woman isn’t dependent upon looks first, I go out with guys who ask and then see if I’m attracted. That way, I’m never with anyone who doesn’t like me too.  

      2. 53.6.2
        SparklingEmerald

        Tom @ 53.6 said “Your musings on relationships to Garret at #31 gave me pause for thought so thank you for that comment; as I’m at somewhat of an existential cross-roads myself. I’m kinda getting close to an age where I’ll have to make a decision about whether I can ever go fully down the relationship path or continue to remain single/casual indefinitely. Hmm.
         
        Tom — I think this is hilarious !   I have decided to stop actively pursuing relationships and become a “make out Jezebel” and I attribute some of that to being influenced by what you have posted.  Now I have posted something that has given you pause and is causing you to consider a decision regarding relationship vs.  indefinite casual.   It would be so freakin’ funny if a year from now, you are in full courtship mode, looking for a serious relationship, and I’m living  the “make out and flake out” lifestyle.
        But in all seriousness Tom — I hope you meet a really awesome gal, and your sky high feelings for her make the decision for you.  And that the two of you just can’t help yourselves and you both fall helplessly in love with each other.  I think it’s very sad that some people go their whole lives and NEVER experience that.  YES ! It is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all.

    7. 53.7
      RacheL

      hi Tom :)
      well im happy for u too, that u have wat u want!  i guess (and u seem to agree here) that Evan’s advice to women is good becus if they want relationshps, they should focus on men who court. becus those beautiful smart easygoing women u date COULD get reasonably ‘good catches’ to court if they wanted, but theyre not getting that from u. theyre more willing to compromise on what kinda treatment they get, instead of compromising on sumthing like looks or charisma!

      like Jenn says, iv long just focused on guys who are very interested in me and show it. cus i had a wakeup call! when i was about 20, this guy id gone on several dates refused to even get out of bed to walk me to the cab and told me he’d left the cab money on the table for me. (he complained it was 3am and he had work the next day, which is true, but he was wide awake for sex half hr ago!)
      Harumph. and i was reasonably pretty and had guys who wanted serious relationshps with me, but id liked this guy becus he was so funny, hot, tall and smart! i didnt want a serious boyfriend since was only 20, but still, i think most women wanna be treated much better than that!…never spoke to him again and realised i didnt wanna be with guys who didnt think i was special and wonderful and all that. for women who wanna just hookup, thats fine, but for the rest, we need to focus on guys who court us and think we’r worth it!
       
      strangely the posts here are mainly from women already getting courted, and from men staying reluctant to court. lol! and we’re a stubborn bunch. but i hope sum women are reading and silently decideing to insist on better treatment from guys. anyway i wish u the best at your ‘existential crossroads’, Tom!

  23. 54
    deti

    EMK:
    Are you aware that Fusee says “high quality” women like casual sex and probably engage in it during their 20s?
    Does a “high quality” woman engage in casual sex, in your estimation?
    If so, what sort of men does a “high quality” woman select for casual sex? For “relationships”?
    What triggers a “change” from a “high quality” woman’s pursuit of casual sex to relationships?
    Do you agree with your commenter Fusee that “high quality” women change strategies from seeking casual sex to a strategy seeking a relationship? If so, what characterizes that change? And are you aware of certain allies of yours who claim that there is NO SUCH THING as a woman who changes strategies in the fashion that Fusee has admitted?

  24. 55
    Morpheus

    <i>The vast majority of the men I’ve been out with have wanted to keep seeing me. It was I who decided not to continue seeing them, because I just wasn’t feeling it. And this was with them courting me.</i>
    Jenn,
    Do you realize with this statement you’ve just confirmed my argument that “courting” is an ineffective strategy.  Now take what you’ve said here, and have guy X repeat this process over 1-2 years with many different women, courting one at a time and then after 2-3 dates, nothing to show for it.  Look, I understand why many women want to be in this position, but I suspect if the position was reversed few of you would be advocating such a stupid strategy where you invest a lot of time and money for little to no results.

    There are Type 1 and Type 2 errors:

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors

    A guy can make two errors with respect to courting.  One error is NOT investing time, effort, money in a woman he should while the other error is investing time, effort, money in many women he should not.  You cannot optimize simultaneously on avoiding both errors.  In my view, in the current dating marketplace the more likely error is overinvesting in many no-payoff situations. 

  25. 56
    Morpheus

    Evan and others,

    Thoughts on below in the context of courting?

     https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/blogs/shine-on/toronto-woman-uses-men-expensive-meals-blogs-173421026.html

     The hitch? She has no money. So instead of eating her way to the bottom of a can of chickpeas, Wotherspoon uses what she does have — a pretty face and a flair for acting — to swindle men into taking her on first dates in exchange for a free meal at one of her chosen restaurants.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/qa-having-lunch-with-the-toronto-woman-whos-serial-dating-for-pricey-restaurant-meals/article15353953/

    “Exploiting men for meals is tough. I have to put up with a lot of bad conversation,” Wotherspoon wrote on the blog last month. Other downsides to the serial dating scheme include tedious text messages from suitors Wotherspoon has trouble keeping straight and “feigning interest in things I don’t care about.” 

    Question for the women here….how should a man distinguish sincere interest from feigned interest on say a Date 1 or Date 2? 

    1. 56.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Questions for Morpheus:

      a) You cite some article about an awful golddigger as an example of women. I can post an article about a serial rapist. Does that prove anything about “men”? Thought not.
      b) You have this false impression that women are all about feigned interest and free meals. That widely misses the mark. Women are looking for love. They can’t possibly know if they can love you, trust you, see a life with you after Date 1 or 2. That’s what dating’s about. You’re pursuing sex (and maybe a relationship). She’s pursuing a relationship (which will eventually involve sex). It’s in her best interests not to sleep with men she barely knows, doesn’t trust, and who aren’t looking for commitment. My advice tells women to get to know a guy over a month, fool around with him (without intercourse), be an incredible date – attentive, warm, receptive, feminine, appreciative – and see what kind of effort he makes. If he doesn’t call, doesn’t plan, doesn’t pay, doesn’t make an effort between dates, and isn’t stepping up to act like a potential boyfriend, cut him loose. I fail to see how any of that is bad or unrealistic advice.

      Both parties are testing the waters, but men have to make a sincere display of intent early on.You’re very focused on a woman’s “insincere interest” – when only a tiny fraction of women actually USE men for dates. Most of them are just seeing if they feel a spark. Contrast that with the 90% of men who may have “insincere interest” in wanting to sleep with someone that they have no desire to commit to. Seems to me like women should be more careful in screening for insincere interest than you have to be. Do you disagree? Or do you really think that 90% of women are out to get free meals and have no interest in having a relationship?

      Finally, if you disagree with either of my two questions/assertions, I’m not sure what there is to talk about. You and I are clearly looking at the same facts through a completely different lens.

  26. 57
    Morpheus

    a) You cite some article about an awful golddigger as an example of women. I can post an article about a serial rapist. Does that prove anything about “men”? Thought not.

     I didn’t make any claims about proving anything about all men or all women.  NAWALT and NAMALT always apply.  I was just curious what you thought of that.

     b) You have this false impression that women are all about feigned interest and free meals. 

    I never stated that.  I don’t believe most women are out to get free meals.  I think what happens in practice is that women will go out with a lot of men that they sort of feel “meh, blah” about to be “nice” and “give it a chance”.   Then after a few dates and “not feeling it” like your commenter above they end it.  From a woman’s POV this is perfectly fine…she is exercising optionality and passing the costs of exercising those options to the guy under the situation you recommend which is that the man pays.  If they pay 50/50 more or less, then neither side has more invested in a sort of “meh” situation to see “where it goes”.  For a guy, the most important consideration is correctly establishing quickly whether or not he is a serious sexual prospect/being considered as lover.  If not, he needs to stop wasting time and money immediately, even if the woman is willing to go on one or two more dates at the guy’s expense to then conclude “she isn’t feeling it”.

    My advice tells women to get to know a guy over a month, fool around with him (without intercourse), be an incredible date – attentive, warm, receptive, feminine, appreciative – and see what kind of effort he makes. If he doesn’t call, doesn’t plan, doesn’t pay, doesn’t make an effort between dates, and isn’t stepping up to act like a potential boyfriend, cut him loose. I fail to see how any of that is bad or unrealistic advice.

    I have no issue with any of that.  On the whole, I think that is good advice because you are least encouraging the woman to invest something to demonstrate sincere sexual interest.  From the male POV, my opinion is that a guy has to do a realistic self-assessment of his own market buying power, and then determine what he is willing to accept.

     You’re very focused on a woman’s “insincere interest” – when only a tiny fraction of women actually USE men for dates. Most of them are just seeing if they feel a spark. Contrast that with the 90% of men who may have “insincere interest” in wanting to sleep with someone that they have no desire to commit to.

      I think your numbers are way off here.  Tiny fraction versus 90%.  Cmon now.  I sure hope you are using hyperbole there.  Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart who claims to have done authoritative analysis says that 80% of men are just looking for a relationship, not casual sex, and that most men surveyed say the optimal number of sexual partners is 1.  That obviously doesn’t jibe with your claim of 90%.  Do you think her analysis is completely wrong with respect to this?

     Finally, if you disagree with either of my two questions/assertions, I’m not sure what there is to talk about. 

    We are just two guys shooting the shit.  It is your blog, and I don’t want to be a pest, so I’ll gladly stop commenting if you have no interest in any further dialogue.  I’m simply sharing a certain POV that I think is far more common than you think.  Most guys are smart enough IRL to watch what they say to whom, but on the Internet there can be more candid exchanges about what people really believe.

    1. 57.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Appreciate the sober and respectful tone. It’s far better treatment I got on JustFourGuys. Anyway…

      There’s no defense of actual golddiggers. Just gives other women a bad name and adds fuel to the put-upon MRA fire. It’s a shame. But it is the equivalent of tarnishing all men because one guy is a serial rapist. Really, what’s the point of sharing this freakish anomaly of a woman?

      b) Seems to me like we’re closer than we appear on dating advice for women. The difference is that you think it’s common sense for a man to expect a 50/50 split of the early dates (out of fairness). I agree that it is unfair. I also think that life is unfair and we have to make the best of it. So you and your guys will insist on splitting the check or asking her to take you out (because it’s fair), while men who listen to me will take a chance and suck it up because it’s a better dating strategy (showing thoughtfulness, generosity, chivalry, etc.) Are you “right” about it being unfair? Sure. I don’t think you are going to be very “effective” with most women – who make their own money but still want to see evidence of an time/money/emotional investment before they put out for you.

      Your retort that men don’t have to pay for dates to get laid is accurate. As is my retort that – despite plenty of high quality women who fuck first and ask questions later – there are a lot more women who don’t feel comfortable with that. And you 50/50 guys who are so focused on dollars spent and equal investment are pretty much writing off any woman who thinks that some basic chivalry is in order. That’s okay. Just know that women who hold out for a guy who pays for 4 dates are making smart choices for their own needs and aren’t missing out on the 50/50 guys. And the 50/50 guys who think that this is evidence of women being selfish golddiggers and demand to get laid while she pays for him are only going to be able to choose from that pool of women – who are often weaker and needier – which is why they put up with inferior treatment.

      As far as my last point, I absolutely mean it. And I’m shocked you don’t agree. It says it on my blog. It says it on your blog. “Men look for sex and find love”. I sure did. I dated hundreds of women, hooked up like crazy, but was always looking for the real deal. I would be in Susan Walsh’s 80%, and yet I undoubtedly hurt a bunch of women who thought our hookups meant something. I’m trying to protect those women from guys like me – who would have NSA sex with a stranger but would ALSO step up to the plate and court and wait for sex if she’s an incredible catch.

      I hope you can concede this and realize that I’m a red-pill realist who gives women advice that works really well for THEM. The fact that it thwarts your readers desires to have sex and get it subsidized is immaterial.

      1. 57.1.1
        Morpheus

        Appreciate the sober and respectful tone. It’s far better treatment I got on JustFourGuys. Anyway…

        FWIW, I try to keep what I say and write in a reasonable tone unless I am provoked first (like the one comment above regarding my choice in username).  Like I said, my policy towards moderation is hands off so there are guys who bring a more raw emotion to their comments.  FWIW, I’m on my second marriage.  My first marriage was a disaster, and she cheated on me, and she was the one who decided she needed to leave the marriage after having been the one putting on the full court press to get married in the first place.  That was many years ago, and I’ve worked through all the emotions and issues….some of the guys commenting are in the middle of stuff or stuck in a negative place which gets reflected in what they write.  Let me end this line of thought with the following.  You obviously advise and write for women so you hear mostly how women are “wronged” by various men.  I don’t dispute there are some bad apples out there in the menfolk either.  But there are men who are “wronged” in the dating process and/or relationships/marriage as well.  It isn’t fair minded to simply disregard that entirely.  
         
        b) Seems to me like we’re closer than we appear on dating advice for women. The difference is that you think it’s common sense for a man to expect a 50/50 split of the early dates (out of fairness). I agree that it is unfair. I also think that life is unfair and we have to make the best of it. So you and your guys will insist on splitting the check or asking her to take you out (because it’s fair), while men who listen to me will take a chance and suck it up because it’s a better dating strategy (showing thoughtfulness, generosity, chivalry, etc.) Are you “right” about it being unfair? Sure. I don’t think you are going to be very “effective” with most women – who make their own money but still want to see evidence of an time/money/emotional investment before they put out for you.
         
        Probably.  If I were strategically advising women, I’d probably echo some of what you say.  I think one part you downplay somewhat because it plays to the audience is deemphasizing just how important looks and physical appearance are.  And to be clear, I advise men to do the same so I am not hypocritical here, and it is just smart strategy.  First piece of advice I give to any guy is get in the gym, lose the bodyfat, and develop some muscle tone.  You’ll increase your overall attractiveness level and be appealing to a much larger target market.  But it is work, takes time, and requires discipline.  It would be easier to just say “have confidence in your present appearance”.  Now because women consider some other things such as status and charisma, a guy is generally somewhat less dependent on his looks as a driver to his overall attractiveness.
         
        Back to the 50/50 pay or not pay, again, it isn’t so much about fairness or unfairness, as it really is about strategy.  To me, a woman who makes a genuine effort to pay is someone who is sending an honest message that they see themselves as contributor as well, that they really believe in that “equal partner” stuff and are not just paying lip service to it.  They are showing they are a giver, and not just a taker.  Frankly, I would want to filter out (and I’m married so it is a moot point) and would advise met to filter out any women who expect to get those first 3-4 dates entirely paid as long-term relationship/wife material.  You are getting hitched to a woman who sees herself as entitled through her possession of a vagina.  Now if a guy wants to have a fling or short-term fun, maybe he goes along with that, but she has eliminated herself as serious wife material.
         
        And again it depends on the attractiveness of the guy.  A guy who is tall, good-looking face, full head of hair, charismatic, successful in his career, fit and athletic, intelligent, doesn’t have to court.  He is the prize, and women will compete for him.  The more attractive a guy is, the more he can “flip the script” so to speak and reverse the role of of pursuer and pursuee.  Sure, there are some women who will reject that guy out of principle for not pursuing the script of courting her.  But they are a minority.  For many women, when principles and feelings/emotions collide, feelings/emotions come out the winner, and they will make exceptions based on the guy.  If you’ve got the real world experience I think you do, then you know everything I am saying is 100% accurate.  Now if a guy is sort of mediocre, not really good looking, not tall, average job, then yeah, that guy is going to have to court and invest heavily to win the girl.  So how much a guy pursues the heavy courting/investment strategy is going to depend on a realistic self-assessment of his attractiveness relative to most men.  The top 10% attractiveness guys can play by an entirely different rulebook than the other 90%.
         
        Your retort that men don’t have to pay for dates to get laid is accurate. As is my retort that – despite plenty of high quality women who fuck first and ask questions later – there are a lot more women who don’t feel comfortable with that.
         
        Just curious what do think the percentage split here is, and I’ll bypass the entire “high quality” issue.  Truth is, when we talk “high quality” it is alot like Lake Wobegon where ALL the children are above average.  Who is high-quality…everyone raises their hand including the mentally ill unemployed person.
         
         And you 50/50 guys who are so focused on dollars spent and equal investment are pretty much writing off any woman who thinks that some basic chivalry is in order. That’s okay. Just know that women who hold out for a guy who pays for 4 dates are making smart choices for their own needs and aren’t missing out on the 50/50 guys. And the 50/50 guys who think that this is evidence of women being selfish golddiggers and demand to get laid while she pays for him are only going to be able to choose from that pool of women – who are often weaker and needier – which is why they put up with inferior treatment.
         
        Well…then it is what it is.  Time will tell, but I think the number of 50/50 guys is going to keep increasing simply because guys find websites and realize there is another way that is in fact more effective.  
         
        “Men look for sex and find love”. I sure did. I dated hundreds of women, hooked up like crazy, but was always looking for the real deal. I would be in Susan Walsh’s 80%,
         
        No, you would not be.  You are misunderstanding HER position as I have conveyed it to you.  I can provide you links and source material if you want it.  Here position is NOT that 80% of men go looking for sex and find love, but that 80% are looking for love first and the sex is a byproduct of finding love.  
         
        and yet I undoubtedly hurt a bunch of women who thought our hookups meant something. I’m trying to protect those women from guys like me – who would have NSA sex with a stranger but would ALSO step up to the plate and court and wait for sex if she’s an incredible catch.
         
        The operative phrase of absolute critical importance is the part “if she’s an incredible catch”.
         
        I hope you can concede this and realize that I’m a red-pill realist who gives women advice that works really well for THEM. The fact that it thwarts your readers desires to have sex and get it subsidized is immaterial. 
         
        IMO, you are purple pill :)  I’m not naive, and I realize the full on maximum strength red pill is too harsh for most women.  I have no issue with your advice “thwarting” desires to get low investment sex and/or subsidization.  Here is the thing, and it is simply describing market reality free of any moral judgement.  There is an adversarial/opposing nature to male and female interests.  It just is what it is.  You are in the business of advising women.  I certainly don’t expect you to give them advice counter to their interests.  By the same token, I am in the non-business/hobby of providing info/advice to men.  Since our target markets are different, with different goals and objectives, then there will be different strategies.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I could go back and forth all day, but this is the only thing that I really wanted to respond to:

          “Now if a guy is sort of mediocre, not really good looking, not tall, average job, then yeah, that guy is going to have to court and invest heavily to win the girl.”

          And, like you advising me that my readers aren’t all “high quality” in terms of looks – and that they have to be conscious of how that limits them – I would submit that, among men in the “manosphere,” the majority (like, 90%) are not in the position to split checks, demand sex, and insist that the woman chase. So you may be doing a disservice to your average, frustrated chumps, with beer bellies, high school educations, and blue collar jobs – to so aggressively dismiss the very valid needs of women.

          Put it this way: there’s evidence all over this site that I tell women how to be better dates/relationship partners (easygoing, accepting, patient, feminine, understanding, self-aware, sexy, supportive, etc). Where is the evidence in the manosphere of telling men how to properly treat women?

        2. Henriette

          @ Morpheus: I suspect that Evan doesn’t focus on telling women to improve their looks because from a very young age, girls are told how important it is to be slim and beautiful.  The message is everywhere.  Now, we don’t always have the desire/ discipline/ time/ money to improve greatly on our appearances but TRUST ME, we know that men are visual creatures and Evan knows that we know this. 
           
          However, encouraging women to be kind, feminine, receptive and to walk away from bad men rather than staying and complaining/ trying to change them… THAT is is a message that Evan’s target audience of smart, educated women don’t often hear (read).  

  27. 58
    SparklingEmerald

    Did anyone notice that the header picture of this shows a man and woman on a picnic ?  That would be a very lovely 1, 2 or 3rd date, easily inexpensive and easy for each person to contribute to.  (The woman could bring a home made dessert, the guy could bring wine, etc)  Not only “equal” but very romantic, and a very nice way to get to know someone.  Personally, I think 5 star restaurants make HORRIBLE first dates.  Wait staff hovering over you constantly, disrupting the convo CONSTANTLY with “Everything alright ?”  “May I get you anything ?”  “May I take that plate for you ?”  
     
    As soon as women say “Courtship” the blog trolls show up in droves screaming “Gold Diggers  !”  I have stated many, many times on this blog that I don’t expect those early dates to be expensive, in fact I would prefer that they would NOT be.  And StarThrower has echoed the same sentiment.  And the trolls who insist that “Courtship” = spending tons of money, constantly ignore us.
     
     
    I went on a first meet and greet yesterday.  I offered to help with the bill.  He just smiled and gave me a “silly girl” look, and refused my offer.  (Very inexpensive date to begin with, but I still offer).  He asked me to the movies tomorrow.  I happen to have free movie passes (which I always do, my work gives them out like candy)  which I offered.  He said fine and then suggested that we go out for a frozen yogurt treat afterwards.  Do you think I am going to turn up my nose because a frozen yogurt doesn’t require a huge outlay of cash ????   NO, I am glad that he wants to spend TIME with me.  Also, movie dates are a little weird in the beginning unless you piggy back them with something else, to provide a chance to talk.  So tomorrow we will go see a movie–my treat, then a frozen treat afterwards, his treat.  So is this whole “scheme” really so unfair, that he paid 100% for the first date,  but I am only ponying up 50% for the second ?  (And I’m not really coming up with anything, because I won the tickets at work) 
    Just as women who complain about men who just “use” them for sex should keep their legs shut, men who complain about gold diggers should keep their wallets shut, but you can STILL court a woman without spending huge amounts of money OR expecting her to call, plan and pay for dates.
    Perhaps for men, there could be a male equivalent of “rounding the bases”.  Let’s call it “loosening the purse strings”  Make that first date a TOTAL freebie.  A scenic hike or bike ride.  Or bring your cameras and take a walk through the Historic District and take interesting photographs.  She’s a fun and enthusiastic date,  you go in for the kiss, she gives you her lips (maybe even some tongue :P  )  You decide to do this again.  You suggest the museum on Thursday night, because they are free after 6PM.  She says “GREAT !” You go, she has dressed to the nines, (and you just KNOW she did that for YOUR benefit)   when you put your arm around her, she snuggled right in, you guys laughed and had a great time.  You buy her a gelato afterwards and make out in the car like two crazy teens, then again on her doorstep.  She doesn’t invite you in, but judging from the two heavy make out sessions, you are sensing that she’s attracted and interested.  Date 3, you suggest a sunrise picnic on Sunday.  You bring the fixings for Mimosa’s and some fresh fruit, she brings home-baked muffins and some yogurt.  Since it’s early in the morning, and you guys are having your picnic in a rather remote spot, you both get a little giddy from the Mimosa’s and each other’s company, and have another heavy make out session on your blanket, and a little bit of groping is going on as well . . .
    Keep on progressing like this, perhaps, if you both really like each other, are really attracted to each other, you will actually WANT to take her to a nice restaurant, completely your treat, and if you are both feeling it, perhaps you both decide to take down your OLD profiles and be exclusive.   And then she gives you the night of your life . . . 
    This will screen out the gold diggers.  This will keep you from wasting money on a girl who decides that she’s just not feeling it for you after 1, 2 or 3 dates.  (Not because she was “using” you, but you can’t decide on a relationship 10 minutes after you meet someone)  
    Inexpensive courtship isn’t impossible, it just takes a little imagination.  A good hearted woman who is going to like YOU for YOU and not your wallet, will be delighted.  (Starthrower and I aren’t the only 2 women in the world like this)  
     
    Of course, if the problem really isn’t the money, but resentment about courtship in general and treating women well, then really, I have nothing to say to the MRA, red-pill types who complain about the possibility that courtship just might make a come back.
     
     

  28. 59
    Nicole

    I get tired of hearing people tell the author and the coach who is taking time out of his day, how or what he should say to us…..smh……I agree that the woman who give up sex very easily with no effort from the man, may have low esteem because they don’t know how valuable their body really is.  I just wish that people wouldn’t tell the author how to say things, because its his mind and own opinion…… # controlling people….. smh

  29. 60
    Morpheus

     – to so aggressively dismiss the very valid needs of women.

    Which “need” would that be?  You’ve told me yourself in this thread that some “high-quality” women don’t require substantial courting or investment to have sex.  Can’t have it both ways.Put it this way: there’s evidence all over this site that I tell women how to be better dates/relationship partners (easygoing, accepting, patient, feminine, understanding, self-aware, sexy, supportive, etc). Where is the evidence in the manosphere of telling men how to properly treat women?

    Well, I’m not sure what you mean by “properly”.  If properly means showing up to a first date with flowers, then no, the “manosphere” isn’t going to tell men to do that since we know that type of thing doesn’t work.  Here is the thing, too much investment too quickly is a demonstration of low value, and even if it isn’t verbalized, most women subconsiously process it that way. 

    The manosphere isn’t one homongenous think tank either.  Not everyone agrees on everything, I disagree with what some advocate for such as being an asshole, but I think showing leadership, planning, decisiveness are all good thiings. 

    Anyways, good luck to you in your endeavors.  I think you do have to recognize there is a conflict of interests in advising women and advising men.  I think one of the reasons you attracted a lot of “us” on this post because it hit the radar screen when you were advising men with arguably a “man up” message to return to a traditional script for men in a world in which women are equal competitors everywhere else.  It is your blog, and obviously you can do whatever you want, but if you want to stay off the radar of the “manosphere” you might consider steering clear of posts attempting to advise or dictate to men. 

    1. 60.1
      SparklingEmerald

      @60 “but I think showing leadership, planning, decisiveness are all good thiings. “
      Which is what EMK advocates.
       
      @60 “Well, I’m not sure what you mean by “properly”.  If properly means showing up to a first date with flowers, then no, the “manosphere” isn’t going to tell men to do that since we know that type of thing doesn’t work.”

      Evan doesn’t tell men to show up with flowers, in fact I seem to remember a specific post where he advised against it.
      I think flowers are fine in an established relationship for a special occasion.  (Birthday, anniversary, Valentines day) but I admit, they are a bit awkward on a first date with someone you met online.  Or coming from a man that you still haven’t made up your mind about. 

      1. 60.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Nope. No flowers.

        http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/should-men-buy-flowers-or-gifts-for-women/

        That’s just a caricature that the manosphere has created of guys who treat women well.

        In fact, most of my advice (shockingly!) is taken from my real life. I was a guy who dated prolifically. I was a guy who would never be considered beta. I was a guy who hooked up a bunch. I was a guy who always wanted to get married, never did a long-term friends with benefits thing, and tried to treat women well – especially if I was seriously interested in them. I don’t see how being stingy with phone calls (instead of texts) and dates (instead of going dutch) benefits a guy. Short-term, maybe. Long-term? No way.

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