Want the Man Who Wants You!
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My client, Melissa, is a thirtysomething doctor in South Florida. She came to me two months ago, burned out on dating, frustrated by Match.com, confused about what role she played in all of the frustrating results she was getting.
She kept ending up with attractive, fit, charismatic men who didn’t make her feel attractive, didn’t make her feel safe, didn’t make her feel loved.
Two months into coaching, she’s got a new boyfriend. They met on Match and have been together for about a month. He’s already cooked her dinner, brought her chicken soup when she got the flu, and stuck by her when her father had to go to the hospital.
Yet THAT’s the man that you very often lose respect for: the guy who treats you well, the guy who is emotionally available, the guy who earnestly tries to win you over.
He’s devoted, in every sense of the word.
It’s clear, from his actions, that he feels like HE’s the lucky one – and he’s doing everything in his power to prove to her that he’s worthy.
THAT’s the man you want in your life.
Yet THAT’s the man that you very often lose respect for: the guy who treats you well, the guy who is emotionally available, the guy who earnestly tries to win you over.
It’s not nearly as exciting as the man who keeps you on your toes because you never know where you stand. His very UNavailability is part of what makes him so attractive.
But boy, is it unfulfilling to invest so much time in a man who doesn’t give you the security you deserve.
The moral of the story is NOT to find some wishy-washy guy who puts you on a pedestal. Believe me, I appreciate it if you’re uncomfortable finding a man who loves you more.
Feel free to take off the last word if you want.
Just promise me you’ll “find a man who loves you”…not just a man whom you love.
It’s possible – but it takes an effort to do things differently. You’re not alone.
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99 Comments »Filed Under Chemistry VS love, Newsletters
Katarina Phang 1
Yeah very true. All these contradictions in dating/relationship often hurt my head!!!
Laine 2
Well said !
Wispera 3
You know I really love this blog but Evan, with this post, you seem to be feeding into the rhetoric I see posted all over relationship forums for men. Women don’t automatically lose respect for men who treat us well!!! This is just another way of saying all women love BAD BOYS! BUZZZ wrong answer. The last two guys that treated me well I really would have loved for things to work out however, even though both showed devotion they also both had deal breakers that made me throw in the towel.
The beginning section about wanting the man that wants you is on point 100%.
jane 4
Ouch. Point by point, I am this woman. Time to do some soul searching and then to update my profile, pic, and get back on Match. But still, ouch! Nothing like finding a mirror in a blog. Nothing like being prodded out of a complicated safety found in hiding out, focusing on the wrong guy and spending so much time puzzling over how he could possibly let me get away. Sheesh. Time to start being the chooser instead of waiting to be chosen.
Yevette 5
Excellent post, Evan! I took your advice two months ago and walked away from a year long relationship with a guy who treated me well (I never found these type of guys boring), but didn’t feel strongly enough about to want to marry me. It hurt like hell, but I know my worth and wanted to make myself emotionally available for a guy who will see a future with me and want to marry me.
Babsy 6
Thanx Evan, I’ve started reading your posts a few days ago and a lot of things have changed in my dating life. I ditched a man who was never there for me, who loved me conditionally and now am meeting other people. I’m now looking for a man who loves me and am no longer looking for a challenge. I can look for a challenge elsewhere, in my career or personal life. But when it comes to dating I want a man who’s got my back and I’ll have his
Thanx for sharing!
Phoebe 7
Honesty is the best policy. I tell a guy straight up if I don’t want him (I do it nicely, and if I think we can be friends, I say something like “I think of you like a brother”. If they still want to be friends after that, fine. If not, no big deal.). If he doesn’t want me, I don’t stick around and try to be “friends” hoping that he will change his mind. Been there, done that in my 20s. My big problem is that I’m barely 30, have 2 kids, am already divorced and the only men that want to date me are nearly as old as my dad. It doesn’t help that I have a baby face, that just seems to attract them even more. I can’t tell you how many older men I’ve had come on to me and treat me like a little girl–EW. 40 would be ok if he had kids but 50? 65? No way! So, to end my ramble, I think this was a good article but I take it with a grain of salt that I ought to want back every man who’s wanted me.
Karl R 8
Wispera said: (#3)
“Women don’t automatically lose respect for men who treat us well!!! This is just another way of saying all women love BAD BOYS!”
You’re missing the point. This applies to good boys too.
About 3 years ago I dated an amazing woman: brilliant, successful, outgoing, a good dancer, sweet, friendly … and a good girl. For the first three weeks everything went like it should in a relationship. Then she stopped making time for dates. It started taking days for her to respond to emails and voicemails. After three weeks of this, it was obvious to me that she just wasn’t that into me, so I ended it.
It doesn’t matter whether you’re dating a saint or Satan … if that person doesn’t want/love you, you need to end the relationship and find someone else. (You should probably end relationships with Satan for other reasons, but that’s a separate topic.)
If you think this just applies to bad boys, you’ll be caught off-guard when you fall for a really sweet guy who is disinterested or unavailable.
Summer 9
Wow. That was weird. Evan, sometimes I think you’re inside my head.
JoJo 10
At Phobe 7, I agree that I could not want all the men that wanted me. I don’t think that this is what Evan is saying. I believe his point is that women should not be hung up on a man who does not want them. I’ve been guilty of lusting over men who weren’t interested in a relationship thinking that they might change. I’m not that woman anymore. We need to focus our attention and energy on the men who we want, but that mutually want us back. If that man cannot reciprocate the feelings, then it is pointless and a waste of your time.
Nancy 11
What does that mean, want? I find that most of the men who I date who initially want me, want me more when I am a challenge. When I make myself more accessible the want wanes. I must say that in the 50 men I have dated in one year, they all seem to be either needy, weird, narcissistic, moody, arrogant or some form of entitled. Most are wonderful in the beginning, but that fades if they don’t get sex soon enough. There is too much choice on the internet and they know, if you won’t put out Match#345 will.
And by accessible, I don’t mean for sex but emotionally.
Same Boat 12
Nancy #11
I hear ya, sister! Even if you do have sex, they can still show their “needy, weird, narcissistic, moody, arrogant” colors eventually. I just figure that the vast majority of men I date aren’t going to become long-term boyfriends. Then again, I only need to meet the one who will.
Terri 13
I have heard from a number of men and women – personally and professionally – that there is something so exciting about the challenge of “getting” someone and that often, the “having” is not as interesting as the getting. The thrill of the hunt, the conquest and then moving on.
We see so often in books and movies the steps that must be taken to achieve the objective of “winning” his or her heart. This can frequently result in an emotional letdown for the one who plots and plans as opposed to one who allows the relationship to naturally progress.
Bridget 14
How do I want the man that wants me? I have been in the dating world for about 16 years now. Never once engaged. I have had many men want me, but I didn’t want them. I wanted many men but they didn’t want me. Looking back , I could have wanted someone out of the bunch, but I wasn’t ready, or not at the right place in my life. Now I am ready and I know more of what I want in a man and know better what to compromise on.
I have been in the same relationship for the last 5 years with a few months of break up here and there. This guy wanted me bad, so I thought I would give him a chance. Now here we are and he doesn’t want to get married. ( He is 42 and also never married). I have compromised alot and put alot of work into this relationship, as he has. I didn’t really want him in the beginning. But I needed to break my bad boy dating rut I was in and this guy was really sweet and unlike anyone I have ever dated . I say was sweet because now it seems as if he is comfortable and doesn’t seem to try to be sweet anymore. I.E., he didn’t get me anything for my 35th birthday, not even a card. He still wants me, but it’s like he has quit trying. He doesn’t want me to be with anyone else though. Maybe I don’t want him enough? This topic sparked my interest…do I look for someonelse that wants me more, enough to marry me.
Karl R 15
Nancy said: (#11)
“I must say that in the 50 men I have dated in one year, they all seem to be either needy, weird, narcissistic, moody, arrogant or some form of entitled.”
Of the hundreds or thousands of men in the dating pool, how are you consistently ending up with the muck at the bottom? Everyone is going to end up with a bad date or two. That’s just the law of averages. But 50 losers in a row is too much to be a statistical anomoly. You may want to reevaluate how you choose which men to date.
Sarahrahrah! 16
Karl R – #8
You make an excellent point. I’ve had problems falling for “nice,” soft-spoken guys who might have appeared as saints to the world, but ended up not treating me well. On the other hand, I’ve been put off by and often avoided socially aggressive men whom I instinctually mistrusted because of their personality style, but grew to respect and like them because of their kindness and authenticity that I saw evidenced over time.
Bridget – #14
Not acknowledging your girlfriend’s birthday is a huge sign of disrespect and one I would not take lightly. It’s one thing to forget, but after you’ve called it to his attention, why couldn’t he have ran out and gotten you something? That’s what you would do, isn’t it? Just because *he* doesn’t want to break up with you doesn’t mean that you are in a positive relationship. As a thirty five-year-old woman, your datability, fertility and “prospects” are dwindling by the month. Not only that, it is likely that your self-esteem is, too, since your boyfriend seemingly couldn’t care less about you. Although it often seems like we need a catalyzing event (catching him cheating, etc.) to motivate us to move on, it is often in our best interest when we do it sooner rather than later, especially at the pivotal age from about 34-40. Best of luck to you.
Karl R – #15
While I think you are justified in questioning Nancy’s statistics, I have to wonder if you can fully appreciate what the dating pool looks like for women, especially women over 40. Countless articles, including a few that Evan has linked to from OkCupid!, have shown that as men age they look for relatively younger and younger women. This fact would seem to be evidence to me that, indeed, sometimes there is some “muck at the bottom” that older women are left with because they just don’t have as large a dating pool as men their same age. To top it off, if Nancy is an African-American or a Euro-American, her chances of finding dates are even slimmer (again according to OkCupid! user data), because men message these women significantly less often than other groups of women. If you are a white male, you have the advantage of being in the male racial group that is contacted the most –across all age groups. As my mother used to say, don’t judge until you’ve walked a mile in someone’s moccasins. :) P.S. — cool dancing video!
Nancy 17
Karl 15
“Of the hundreds or thousands of men in the dating pool, how are you consistently ending up with the muck at the bottom? Everyone is going to end up with a bad date or two. That’s just the law of averages. But 50 losers in a row is too much to be a statistical anomoly. You may want to reevaluate how you choose which men to date”
First of all, all of the men I have dated,except for one, are divorced. One has to consider that I am dealing with a pool of men who have been in bad marriages, secondly, men are very drawn to me physically and they overreact. At least that has been my experience. So they come on strong and that reads as either needy, weird, cocky, etc. I tend to be very reserved, which they read as a challenge. I try to date at least three men at a time which is why the number is so high. I have only been in a relationship with one and he turned out to be pathological. So there you go. Makes me very pessimistic about finding the one.
Al 18
@Nancy Worry less about meeting “the one” for a while and simply have fun going out and doing things with men. Let go of that need for a while and enjoy yourself. Spend some time that way without pressure and expectations on yourself, and maybe you will feel recharged after a while.
Jadafisk 19
Ahh… I dunno. The men that are attracted to me the most are so different from me in regards to the things that matter that I couldn’t even befriend them. On top of that, I don’t find them physically attractive at all. I didn’t date for years because the only men who showed interest in me – usually based on my appearance alone - were either “bad boy” types or significantly older, and that’s still where the bulk of my most ardent ”fanbase” lies. Now, I categorically ignore them in lieu of men who are one one hand, moderately interested, but OTOH, actually appealing to me and not painful to talk to. They are LTR material, but they typically don’t want to have one with me. What does it mean if you generally garner the attention of guys who aren’t LTR material, and should you still entertain their advances because they’re really interested in pursuing you?
A-L 20
RE: Bridget‘s #14
The guy does nothing for your birthday? Big red flag. Even if he is a great guy, it doesn’t sound as though the two of you want the same things in life. So which is more important to you. Having him in your life, or being married? Doesn’t sound like you can have both.
RE: Sarahrahrah‘s #16
I think there is “muck at the bottom” of every dating pool, and I agree with you that as women age that pool becomes smaller (and the muck a larger percentage of it). But I still wonder what’s going on that out of Nancy’s 50 dates, not one of them is a decent guy. Perhaps the criteria being used are not the best? For instance, if she’s dating the 50 best looking (or highest-earning or similar) ones then they may feel more latitude to act less than admirably because there they can always get a date with someone else.
RE: Jadadisk‘s #19
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by entertaining the advances of guys who are very interested in you. But, e-mail with them? Sure. Go out on a date? Sure. Spend 6 months dating to see if they’ll grow on you? Not so much. As Sarahrahrah said in her #16, there have been several times when she’s been pleasantly surprised by guys of whom she had low expectations.
Bridget 21
@Jadafisk. I have the same question. From my experiences I will say that you should only entertain their advances if you are not expecting a LTR, otherwise you may be dissapointed. I think alot of guys pursue women just for the chase, then once they get you, if they aren’t madly in love by that time or ready for a LTR, it’s on to the next. Sometimes I think it’s like gambling. You could take the chance and maybe one of them would turn out to be into a LTR.
Sarah 22
I get that Evan is saying you shouldn’t pine over someone who doesn’t want you.
But the very headline — Want the Man Who Wants You! — isn’t necessarily any better. I count among guys who have wanted me a number of liars, narcissists, abusers, and men who wanted me (before they really knew me) because they were desperate… and it was not hard to see WHY they were desperate. Oh, and lots of guys old enough to be my father.
To be fair, there were some truly good guys who wanted me when I was younger. Unfortunately I had some learning and growing up to do, and I didn’t snap them up when I had the chance. I regret it. Now, in my early thirties, the good guys have all been snapped up by women who were wiser than I.
Venus 23
I have been really trying to apply this “wanting the man who wants you” theory. My problem is that usually there either is NO physical attraction or I find them extremely dull to be around. I am not looking Brad Pitt, only someone with whom there is mutual attraction and compatibility. Who knew this would be soo hard!
starthrower68 24
I have to say that I agree girls, we can’t just flip a switch and automatically want ALL of the guys who want us. I agree that the so-called impressive men often turn out to be lousy human beings; I briefly dated a professor with 2 PhD’s in Philosophy (morality and ethics, nonetheless) who hit on one of my best friends behind my back. He got kicked to the curb immediately. But I digress. It does seem that we are often desired by men that there is no chemistry OR compatibility, especially if we have a finely-tuned BS meter. I agree wholeheartedly Evan, with the importance of compatibility: but without any chemistry you’re just going through the motions.
Al 25
Take heart. There are good guys who were snapped up by losers, and who will be or are available again. There are also good guys who never owned their masculine energy enough to attract and hold a woman, but are changing themselves. There are fewer good guys out there for you than they were, but they are there.
kenley 26
For the love of God, Ladies. He means want the GOOD guys who want you; not the BAD ones!!!!
Jadafisk 27
20. “Entertaining” means actually going out somewhere with them. I answer all of my messages, but I do try to cut communication short with people I don’t like very much, because I’ve “historically” seen it as a waste of time on both sides. From a guy’s perspective, are ya’ll okay with it when women who aren’t really interested soldier on anyway in the spirit of “giving you a chance?” I was under the impression that they wanted women who wanted them, too, or do they simply want the most appealing woman they can have, even if that means that the baseline for desired amount of reciprocal feelings is set lower?
21. But either way, I lose. Like I said, I wouldn’t be platonic friends with these guys because we have nothing in common, nor enjoy a fling because they are not physically attractive to me. I’d have to want the LTR label more than quality LTR content to be happy about it *if* they decide that they want to girlfriend me. Dating them with no expectation of that would still involve a constant confrontation of the fact that I could only be cordial with them in any other social situation, but I’m putting myself in one that requires that I be more than cordial, and implies an inkling of attraction. I was talking to a guy who wanted to maintain consistent contact, but I *dreaded* his phone calls/texts, and the contact felt like a chore.
Nancy 28
Kenley-
The problem is there is a dearth of good guys!!!!!!!! GET IT?!
There is a lot of flotsam and jetsam floating around, guys who are druggies, gamblers, alcoholics, narcissists, borderlines, bipolars, abusive, uneducated, workaholics, philanderers, sex addicts, and or unemployed…never mind dull, needy, aloof, unattractive and immature! Then you can factor in that they feel entitled and only date woman who are at least 10 years younger!
Karl R 29
Sarahrahrah said: (#16)
“As my mother used to say, don’t judge until you’ve walked a mile in someone’s moccasins.”
It’s impossible for me to become a woman … so I ran this by my girlfriend, who is old enough to have been through that situation.
She says it’s not possible to get 50 lousy guys in a row. If that happens, it’s time to look at the common factor: Nancy.
But her analysis differs from mine. My girlfriend believes that Nancy goes into each relationship believing that there’s something that’s seriously wrong with the man. As soon as Nancy sees the slightest flaw, that “proves” the man is lousy, so she ditches him. Her attitute creates her results.
Nancy said: (#17)
“men are very drawn to me physically and they overreact.”
50 men in a row “overreact” to you? Again, not possible. That’s a large enough sample that the majority of the men acted normally toward you. If the men are a representative sample, then the way the majority acted defines what is normal.
It’s your expectation of how they should act that’s abnormal. If you’re omnipotent, you can change reality to meet your expectations. If not, you can either change your expectations to match reality -or- you can spend a lot of time being frustrated. You choose which sounds more appealing.
Given your results, I suspect that you would claim that over 98% of men “overreact” to you. If you have any additional criteria, then you’re eliminating almost every potential match.
Nancy said: (#17)
“One has to consider that I am dealing with a pool of men who have been in bad marriages”
That’s an excuse, not a reason.
I’m in my 40s. My girlfriend is in her 50s. What do you think our dating pool is made of? My girlfriend is a divorcee, as were the previous three women I dated. If they had been in good marriages (or even tolerable ones) they would still be married.
I realize that it’s easier for you to make excuses (for why it’s the men’s fault) than change. And you can probably make more excuses than I care to shoot down. But making excuses won’t improve your results.
Nancy said: (#17)
“So they come on strong and that reads as either needy, weird, cocky, etc.”
Since you’ve ditched about one man per week, it’s a safe assumption that you don’t take the time to determine whether your “reading” is accurate.
And for the same reasons as above, I’d have to assume that you interpret normal behavior as “coming on strong”.
starthrower68 said: (#24)
“we can’t just flip a switch and automatically want ALL of the guys who want us.”
You just need to want one of them.
Which sounds more effective: searching through the guys who want you to find one that you like, or trying to convince one of the guys who doesn’t want you to change his mind?
You can be as picky as you want during this process. The pickier you are, the longer it will take you to find a good partner.
starthrower68 30
@ Karl #29,
“Which sounds more effective: searching through the guys who want you to find one that you like, or trying to convince one of the guys who doesn’t want you to change is mind?”
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m a bit smarter than you’re giving me credit for. I don’t waste my time trying to change the guy of a mind who doesn’t want me. If I guy I’m attracted to doesn’t want me, that cools my interest pretty quick. It’s not about me being picky. It’s entirely possible that I will meet a guy who wants me that I might not have considered and will be pleasantly suprised. But I don’t live life on that possibility. I have my profile up and if that guy shows up then he does.
Nancy 31
Karll
What makes you think that your girlfriend is some kind of expert by virtue of her having two x chromosomes?
FYI- it is possible to date 50 lousy guys in a row. Sorry! Anyone on Match can tell you that you see the same men still on there for years! I have friends who have been on and off Match since it’s inception.
As far as overreaction and coming on strong. That has been my experience. You have no idea what my experience is, you have not met me, nor have you met the men I have dated.
I have not ditched one man per week, Mr. Sarcasm. Sometimes I just feel it doesn’t work after a meeting at Starbucks. Not having a second date is not the same as ditching.
Am I picky? Yeah I am! I don’t want to get involved with another jerk like the on I married years ago.
I have learned to look for red flags, guys putting their hands on me on the first date, professing their love on the third date, drinking five beers and showing no sign of intoxication, bashing their ex-wives, being rude to the waiters, texting and calling me non-stop early on, demanding to know my whereabouts, attempted date-rapes, no job, lying about their age, height, marital status, or anything at all.
So Karl, as someone already mentioned, unless you or your girlfriend or your sister or your neighbor have walked in my shoes- reserve judgment!
Al 32
@Jadafisk
are ya’ll okay with it when women who aren’t really interested soldier on anyway in the spirit of “giving you a chance?”
We men like it when you are polite and direct. I went on two dates with one woman who sent me a very direct and polite email that romance for us was not “in the cards.” I agreed with that but still appreciated the message. It was painless for both of us that way.
I was talking to a guy who wanted to maintain consistent contact, but I *dreaded* his phone calls/texts, and the contact felt like a chore.
When it is a chore, it is no fun for you and the outcome is clear. Might as well do it sooner than later. Some can have fun and enjoy attention from a non-LTR prospect, but not everyone. Sounds like the men you are describing aren’t fun for you on any level, so yes, you should cut them loose and look for the next prospect.
Elizabeth 33
I read Gottlieb’s book recently “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr.Good Enough,” and since then I have been trying to be less picky rather than focusing on those guys I can’t get. And I’ve also started reading this blog and trying to incorporate some of the tips here. But I can’t say I’ve been having much more success. The guys I write to don’t write me back, and the few guys that write to me are not bad but not exactly what I’m looking for, though I’m continuing to write back in my efforts to be open minded.
I’m in my late twenties; I’m not gorgeous, but I’m tall and slender; I’m well educated… I’m listening to articles like this on being willing to compromise rather than staying fixated on guys who don’t like you back, but what do you do when even after expanding your criteria, you still can’t find someone?
Katarina Phang 34
Venus #23 I’m with you there. I hear ya. It is indeed hard to find mutual attraction. Keep looking though.
Cat 35
Evan has a great blog post about Lori Gottlieb’s book.
If you’re having trouble with online dating, you should definitely check out Evan’s Finding the One Online. You don’t have to be gorgeous to do well in dating! There are lots of reasons you could be having problems…
Also, Karl #38, great question! “Which sounds more effective: searching through the guys who want you to find one that you like, or trying to convince one of the guys who doesn’t want you to change his mind?”
Margo 36
Evan is right again! You are simply wasting yuur time if you want a man that doesn’t want you. If you chased, manipulated, and eventually did get him, in the end you’d never know if he fell in love with you or was just settling. I used to have a bf (and I use that word loosely) who admitted to me that things had changed after I pushed him for answers. 3 months into the relationship he admitted that he didn’t want anything serious after he lied in the beginning about me being his “dream girl”. Basically, he was just using me. After observing his behavior and calling him on it, if I had stuck around and been used, it would have been MY fault. Not his. He already told me by his actions what he was: A scumbag.
Now, I have started seeing a guy who told me up front how he feels about me. I don’t have to guess. I don’t have to chase. I don’t have to convince anyone to like me. It’s a LOT better this way. He’s handsome and got a great heart too. Ladies, if a man doesn’t like you, leave it. Never accept crumbs.
Nancy 37
Update from the trenches
Last night I dated yet another guy form Match. In his profile he stated that his body type is “about average”. He was at least 40 lbs. overweight. I even asked him prior to agreeing to even talking if he was overweight and he said:
” guess I’m more stocky then slim and could stand to lose another 10 or so to get to truly trim and toned condition.”
Yeah right!!!!! He was obese! Was his nice? Yes. Was he smart? Yes. Did he have a nice face? Yes. Do I ever want to kiss him? No. Did he ask me out again? Yes. Now I have to do the rejection letter. Hate that.
Shay 38
I don’t know if this comment would be dropped by the moderator…but oh well, here goes…
Karl (#29),
I really admire your ability to disect comments line by line. But do you mind not over-doing it sometimes?
It’s really helpful for everybody when you analyse the big picture or the situation of the person who email Evan for help. However, for quite a lot of people (especially ladies), this analysis could be too much for the sensitives or defensives out there…which makes people feel that they don’t know what they are talking about.
Nancy (#31),
I absolutely know how you feel. I have been dating or trying to date for about 2 yrs. I have met the guys who want to know my whereabouts, lie about education, old enough to be my father/uncle, testing me very frequently early on and stalker.
I didn’t really keep count, but should be around 20-ish. Only 4 guys I’ve met and dated are decent but 3 not into me and I am completely not into 1. And I am in a country in Asia where the nutcase, abusive men, etc rates are a lot less than the US. So, I know its entirely possible for you to meet 50 lousy guys, especially if they are all from online dating sites.
Karl R 39
Nancy said: (#31)
“FYI- it is possible to date 50 lousy guys in a row.”
Let’s say a misogynist posted that “all women are bitches” and claimed that the last hundred women he dated were bitches. Would you say that, objectively speaking, he was correct? Or would you consider it a safe bet that most of the women he dated were perfectly decent, and the problem was his perspective?
Because given his perspective, I can guarantee that he’ll feel the same way about the next hundred women.
So … what percentage of all men would you say are “lousy guys”?
If 99% of all men are lousy, then the odds of having 50 consecutive dates with lousy guys is 60%.
If 98% of all men are lousy, then the odds of having 50 consecutive dates with lousy guys is 36%.
If 95% of all men are lousy, then the odds of having 50 consecutive dates with lousy guys is 8%.
If 90% of all men are lousy, then the odds of having 50 consecutive dates with lousy guys is 1/2%.
If 85% of all men are lousy, then the odds of having 50 consecutive dates with lousy guys is 0.02%.
Either the universe is conspiring to make your life miserable, or there’s something wrong with your definition of a “lousy guy” (objectively speaking). And as with that misogynist, I can make a fairly good prediction about your next 50 dates.
Nancy said: (#31)
“Anyone on Match can tell you that you see the same men still on there for years!”
So have the same women. That’s particularly true for the women who have observed that the same men are on there for years.
You’ve been on Match for at least one year. At what point in time will you take that to be conclusive proof that you’re a lousy woman? Shouldn’t you be judged by the same standard that you’re judging the men?
I dated at least 3 women who had been on Match for over one year. They were decent women, just not a good match for me. I suspect that their pickiness caused them to spend multiple years on Match without any results.
Nancy said: (#31)
“Am I picky? Yeah I am!“
Then you’ll be spending years on Match, just like those “lousy guys”. I’d be interested to see what kind of mental gymnastics you go through to rationalize how those men are lousy and you’re not.
Nancy said: (#31)
“I have not ditched one man per week, Mr. Sarcasm. Sometimes I just feel it doesn’t work after a meeting at Starbucks. Not having a second date is not the same as ditching.”
Thank you for proving my point. After one coffee date at Starbucks, you believe that you can tell that these men are “lousy guys”. Do you know anyone who displays their best characteristics at Starbucks?
Nancy said: (#31)
“What makes you think that your girlfriend is some kind of expert by virtue of her having two x chromosomes?”
Sarahrahrah (#16) seemed to think the chromosome thing is important. I just happen to think my girlfriend is correct, which is why I included her opinion.
My girlfriend also told me that you had just come to the blog to rant, not to get advice on how to solve your predicament. I’d say her batting average is pretty good.
Regina 40
Bridget #14 wrote, “do I look for someonelse that wants me more, enough to marry me.”
If your goal is to be married one day, then you most certainly do! Otherwise, you’ll regret staying in a dead end relationship wasting precious years that could have been spent looking for the type of relationship that you want AND deserve.
Katarina Phang 41
Karl, you can’t help whom you’re attracted to. You may open and allow yourself to be persuaded to like him more with time and by knowing him better -to an extent. It may work, it may not work. But if you don’t feel it after three dates, the likelihood he’s going to be the one is really slim.
Sarah 42
I get the importance of not being too picky. I fully realize I was too picky when I was younger and had more & better options. I am trying to not be overly picky anymore.
But it’s tough. Last year I met a guy who adored me (a little too much too soon). In the spirit of trying to want someone who wanted me and not to be too picky, I continued giving him a chance even when red flags arose. In the end he turned out to be one of the worst men I’ve ever known: a dishonest, manipulative, passive-aggressive, disrespectful, egomaniacal, abusive, possessive, controlling sociopath who treated me like a five-year-old who was his property and treated my friends like pawns in his game to own me. (He was also as dumb as a post, ugly as sin, and incapable of supporting himself, let alone a wife and kids.) Hands down I’d rather be alone than with someone like him. But the point was that I put up with him even after his behavior became off-putting, simply because I wanted to break myself of my over-pickiness. And I regret that; I should have kicked him to the curb much sooner and saved myself and my friends the pain he caused.
So I’m having a hard time finding the right balance between not being too picky, but being picky enough. I want to forgive and tolerate things that truly are unimportant. But I don’t want to tolerate what is unacceptable.
Right now I’m dating a guy who is overall a very good guy, but to whom I feel NO attraction and I can’t help getting irritated by certain things about him. He’s a man of integrity and intelligence, the right age for me, with a good job and a good family. However, conversing with him sometimes leaves me feeling no more heard and understood than if I were alone. We talk about superficial things. Sometimes (in fact very often) it seems like he doesn’t listen to what I’m saying and isn’t interested. I’ve noticed that he uses more “I” statements than “you” statements; for example, when asking for a date he’ll say “I’d like for you to…” rather than “would you like to…?” The overall impression is that he’s somewhat self-centered, more interested in me knowing who he is and what he thinks than in knowing about me. It doesn’t help that the thought of kissing him turns my stomach. (But the truth is I think that has more to do with his personality than his physicality.)
I don’t know if these things are tolerable or not. I may be trying too hard to stop being overly picky that I’m going in the opposite direction… or maybe that’s an excuse from my overly picky nature.
Sayanta 43
Karl
Good points above but I have to disagree with the one date at starbux comment. A decent polite person who’s will be on his best behavior whether he’s at Starbucks or a 4 star restaurant. I was on a Starbucks date a couple of weeks ago where the guy was sour-faced snapping at me every other sentence and ‘crap’ was every third word out of his mouth. I don’t need to date him again to know that this is not b-friend material.
Cat 44
It sounds like a lot of you need to pre-screen better instead of going on these bad dates! Evan covers this in Finding the One Online.
Ruby 45
You can complain or you can persevere.
I’d be hard=pressed to say that the last 50 guys I’ve dated have all been bad, and I’m in my late 40′s, so my dating pool ain’t what it used to be. Certainly, many of the men I’ve dated have been weird, arrogant, non-committal, rude, troubled, etc. But some of them have also been decent guys that I just didn’t click with. Probably the hardest dating lesson I’ve learned over time is that sometimes even a nice guy can be not so nice if he isn’t all that interested in you.
I also believe in doing a fair amount of screening PRIOR to meeting to weed out the useless ones early on, if possible. If I don’t I have a good feeling about someone during the first phone conversation, I don’t meet him. I’d rather have fewer, better dates (even if relationship material isn’t there), than too many lousy ones.
I just finished reading Christie Hartman’s excellent It’s Not Him, It’s You. She talks about the difference between being picky (focusing on superficial qualities), and being discriminating and looking at a man’s deeper qualities. It can take a lot of time to find a man with whom you have both chemistry AND compatibility. Perhaps I’d feel differently if i wanted to have kids, but I’m not a fan of settling, and I’m not interested in a so-so relationship. I’d rather be a happy single person, than a dissatisfied, or even unhappy, person with a boyfriend.
kenley 46
If you do not feel good about yourself when you are around a man — that means do you feel accepted, cared for, heard, liked and loved, then drop him. It’s as simple as that. No one said you can’t be picky or discerning. You can be — just about the things that matter to YOU for a happy and fulfilling relationship. When you are with him, do you feel like you are and can be your truest and best self? if yes, then he is a good guy for you. If you don’t feel that way, then the guy isn’t right for you. Notice I did not say do you want to rip his clothes off and hop in bed right away (that’s often what chemistry feels like). I said do you feel good around him, and yes, are you attracted to him? Is this guy hard to find? Yes, he can be, but your only option is to stop looking or to continue to look, but look with a positive attitude.
Karl R 47
Sayanta said: (#42)
“I have to disagree with the one date at starbux comment. A decent polite person who’s will be on his best behavior whether he’s at Starbucks or a 4 star restaurant.”
Would you consider politeness to be your best quality? The quality that makes you stand out from other women?
I suspect you’re a little deeper than that. The same applies to most men and women.
The best people shine in the worst situations. And coffee dates (even with rude, foul-mouthed dates) don’t get that bad.
Katarina Phang said: (#44)
“you can’t help whom you’re attracted to.”
So you’re saying that if an 80 year old contacts you online, you can’t help that you’re not attracted to wrinkly, saggy old people. Am I understanding you correctly?
You better hope that you’re wrong. Because if you and your husband live long enough, both of you will be wrinkly, flabby, saggy old people. And if you can’t help whom you’re attracted to, your marriage is going to suck.
Katarina Phang said: (#44)
“But if you don’t feel it after three dates, the likelihood he’s going to be the one is really slim.”
That’s also about three times the time that most people give someone. In the example Sayanta gave (#42), one date is more than enough. But that’s not the typical coffee date.
Ruby said: (#45)
“She talks about the difference between being picky (focusing on superficial qualities), and being discriminating and looking at a man’s deeper qualities.”
If you’re ruling someone out for one of those deeper qualities (lack of kindness, unreliability, etc.), then it works in your favor. If you’re focusing on superficial traits, then you’re either making your search more time-consuming, or you’re distracting yourself from looking at the deeper qualities.
Venus 48
@ Al (25) Thanks for that! A little light at the end of the tunnel is all that’s needed.
In the meantime I think I shall get started working on that PHD.
Katarina Phang 49
Karl #47, no you can’t. If you grow old with the one whom you were attracted to to begin with, you will stay attracted to him/her provided that your relationship evolves beyond the physical as healthy relationships will/should.
Sometimes one date is enough to establish if you are going to be attracted to someone. The “maybes” get more dates, but the “no’s” why waste time on them? I know for sure within seconds meeting them if I’m NOT going to be attracted to them ever. I might not be so sure with those whom I think “Maybe if I know him more I will feel more chemistry.”
Physical attraction might sound shallow but without it there is no fuel to sustain the relationship. Just a fact. (Unless of course you are a believer in an arranged marriage).
Susan 50
This article is dead on. I just ended a relationship with a guy that I was really attracted to, but who never made me feel special and left me feeling extremely insecure about the relationship, myself, etc. He never called & only texted. He never made me feel safe & valued.
Now I’m dating a guy who I normally wouldn’t have considered, but who has been the best thing ever. He schedules our next date a week in advance (we don’t see each other more often due to my schedule and not his), he calls me almost every day just to see how things are going, he’s really nice (not just with me, but with his friends and family as well), he’s solid, consistent, etc. I never would have chosen him if I hadn’t completely changed my dating focus after reading Evan’s articles. He’s not the hottest guy in the world and he isn’t charismatic, but he’s just about the nicest, most thoughtful guy and I would rather have that over hot any day.
Sayanta 51
Karl
I’m confused by your response to my starbucks comment. It appears that you agree that my date was rude and foul mouthed. Yet you say dates don’t get that bad. Um – yeah it got bad. I was there.
I don’t think you’re advocating giving men like this second dates? And I do think politeness is a sign of having qualities like respect and empathy.
Selena 52
Kenley,
I really like what you wrote in #46.
I’ve come to the idea that there is only one criteria when it comes to choosing someone: Do I feel good being with this person?
All positves and negatives (any kind of list) become irrelevant when this is the focus.
And I’m curious, does any know if Gottlieb found her “Mr. Good Enough”?
Regina 53
Sarah #41
It all boils down to knowing what you want and are looking for in a partner. There’s nothing wrong with being picky as long as you’re being realistic regarding what it is you are being picky about. However, if there’s no attraction and this guy has personality traits that are off-putting, then you need to let him go. Otherwise, you are wasting both his time and yours.
Experience has taught me that it’s better to be single and alone, than to be in a relationship with someone whom we are simply settling for, or who is settling for us.
Sayanta 54
Selena, #52-
No, I don’t think she did, but I could be wrong.
Ruby 55
Karl R #47
There is a big difference between growing old with someone you are attracted to over time, and being contacted for a date by an 80 year old when you’re 40. I’ve read that couples who grow old together don’t really notice the white hair and wrinkles, they still see the person they first fell in love with.
I’m not following your comment about Sayanta’s coffee date either.
“She talks about the difference between being picky (focusing on superficial qualities), and being discriminating and looking at a man’s deeper qualities.”
Yes, Hartman is advising women to be discriminating, not picky.
starthrower68 56
@ Nancy #31,
One hasn’t truly arrived on this blog unless Karl has dissected our statements point by point. I think it’s like an initiation or something. As for me, since Karl has done the math, I think from now on I’ll do linear equations before I decide if I’m going to date a guy or not. ;D
Al 57
@Nancy
Liars annoy me too. You sound frustrated, angry, and bitter. Right now, I doubt you are emotionally available even to a “perfect” eight who might otherwise be into you.
Is your divorce finished yet? Some underestimate the impact of dueling a former partner. Your perspective might change when that document is in your past.
Regardless of the whys, I recommend a break from dating. Finish your divorce. Once done, be nice to yourself for a few months. Do things for Nancy. When your eye wanders to handsome men on the street without reflexively thinking “I wonder what is wrong with him?”, unhide the ol’ profile and maybe you will have a better time. If that fails consider a match-making service instead of Match.com. They screen their clients.
Kurt 58
I disagree with Evan on one point – he indicated that men would get bored with a woman who made it really clear to a man right away that she was really into him. I disagree – if the woman is hot enough, most men would be totally flattered and might even consider the woman to be marriage material if she is of good character. I certainly wouldn’t be bored with a hot woman who was totally into me.
I am pretty sure that the opposite is not true – women really do seem to get bored with attractive men who are into them from the start for some reason.
Diana 59
To Sayanta #42, agreed. While a typical coffee date is pretty innocuous, it’s the individuals that really set the date’s tone. If I meet someone new for coffee, I expect he’ll be on his best behavior, as will I. If he’s foul mouthed or crude, wherever we are, there will be no further dates with me. I want a man who is respectful of himself and others, and that type of behavior doesn’t put him in that category for me.
Margo 60
@Sarah, if the thought of kissing a man turns your stomach, why in the world are you dating him??
Regina 61
Like Evan says, “want the guy who wants you.” However, if you feel zero chemistry for the guy that wants you, then it’s no different than feeling chemistry for someone whom you want, but who doesn’t feel the same way about you. The shoe is simply on the other foot. In that case, it’s a no-win situation.
There are no guarantees in life. That’s where finding happiness and contentment in being single and unattached comes into play. In other words, create your own happiness and live a rewarding, fulfilling, single life with the attitude that if you happen to meet that special someone – great – if not, at least you put yourself out there and gave it a shot.
Just my two cents!
Jadafisk 62
I say this as a young woman with a strong sex drive… by the time I am 80 (unlikely I’ll live that long), I will not be interested in and/or physically able to have sex, and any husband I would’ve had will probably have died. For most people, this is the case and therefore, it’s a non-issue.
Also, the impact of aging undermines the point. Whoever you (rhetorical you, not literal you) get with, from a physical attractiveness standpoint will only get less appealing as time goes on… if you’re testing the margins of who you’re attracted to in the first place and/or vice versa, this *will* become a problem before the couple’s engines run out of steam.
Selena 63
@Jada #62
Agreed.
And there are many decades ( very long decades if one is sexually unsatisfied) to weather until age 80 as well.
Karl R 64
Sayanta said: (#50)
“I’m confused by your response to my starbucks comment.”
Let me try to rephrase it.
Evan wasn’t certain that he made the right choice with his wife until they had the miscarriage. Why? Because during that lousy experience, they got to see each other at their best and worst.
On a coffee date, your date can show you that they’re polite, courteous and friendly (or not), but they can’t show you that they’ll be loyal, or that they’ll be dependable in a crisis, or that they’ll be patient with you when you’re cranky.
Sayanta said: (#50)
“And I do think politeness is a sign of having qualities like respect and empathy.”
I grew up in the midwest. You live in Newark. By our standards, we would probably consider each other reasonably polite individuals. I currently live in the south, where the majority of the population was raised on the idea of “southern hospitality”. Our concept of polite behavior doesn’t make the grade down here.
Would southerners be justified in thinking that everyone in the northern part of the country is disrespectful and lacks empathy?
To a certain extent, I think you should expect politeness from your date. But it might not be as informative as you would expect.
Diana said: (#59)
“If I meet someone new for coffee, I expect he’ll be on his best behavior, as will I.”
I’ve shown up to first dates physically and mentally exhausted before. While I was still quite capable of being polite, I wasn’t able to be as witty and charming as I would have liked.
I’ve been on first dates with women who clearly felt nervous and awkward on those dates. Would it have be fair/realistic for me to assume that they lacked self-confidence under more normal circumstances?
Jadafisk: (#62)
“by the time I am 80 (unlikely I’ll live that long), I will not be interested in and/or physically able to have sex, and any husband I would’ve had will probably have died. For most people, this is the case and therefore, it’s a non-issue.”
My girlfriend’s father is 82; her stepmother is 75. They still have an active sex life. (We make a point of not dropping by their house unexpectedly.)
I’m expecting to have an active sex life as long as I’m physically able.
Ruby said: (#55)
“I’ve read that couples who grow old together don’t really notice the white hair and wrinkles, they still see the person they first fell in love with.”
And the couples who meet and fall in love when they’re in their 70s and 80s … how do you think they do it?
My girlfriend’s uncle (widowed and remarried in his late 70s) has implied that he also has an active sex life.
They were able to start out wrinkly, saggy and flabby, and still find each other attractive.
Katarina Phang said: (#51)
“Physical attraction might sound shallow but without it there is no fuel to sustain the relationship. Just a fact.”
Physical attraction may be a necessity, but people are capable of influencing whether they’re physically attracted to someone.
With most of my girlfriends, they have some physical features which are attractive, and some physical features which are unattractive. I focus my attention on their best features, and pay little attention to their less attractive features.
With one girlfriend I might focus on her flawless complexion, and with the next girlfriend I might ignore her bacne. I certainly don’t find everyone attractive, but I’ve opened up a much wider dating pool by selectively choosing where I want to focus my attention.
Countless women on this blog have given anecdotes about overlooking serious character flaws because they were focused on a man’s physical attractiveness (including a few in this thread). Isn’t it more productive to consciously use that same selective attention to overlook a few physical flaws on someone who has great character?
Sayanta 65
Karl
I live in NYC
Diana 66
Hi Karl ~ that is for you to decide.
If I meet a guy who’s feeling nervous or awkward at our first date, I don’t think he lacks self-confidence. I know that it took at least a certain amount of confidence to initiate contact with me, to call me, to ask me out, to arrange for the date, etc. I am appreciative of the effort he made. I interpret his behavior for simply what it is ~ a normal reaction to meeting me for the first time. I don’t equate this with his not being on his best behavior.
If he showed up physically and mentally exhausted, I would wonder why he didn’t call to reschedule until he was feeling better. If he didn’t share with me how he was feeling, I’d likely be able to tell. While I wouldn’t feel responsible for his decision to meet me, I would feel like I was taking up his time when he really needed to be getting some rest and this would make me feel a little be uncomfortable. If we connected, and he asked for a second date, I’d agree, after teasing him to promise not to show up exhausted.
Sarahrahrah! 67
And meanwhile, back in Gotham City….
We are often attracted to people we deem to have much in common with us — as this article states.
More and more, I am questioning how important similarities really are in a long term relationship. In my last relationship, I really liked the guy a lot because he (at first) met all of my criteria on my “check list.” We had a ton of things in common, including a common cultural and religious background. We loved similar types of art, music and movies and enjoyed the same hobbies. While some of that was nice, I realized that I had little to share with him to “impress” him. Likewise, he had little to teach me. He wanted to do things with me that I had valued as hobbies I like to do with my girlfriends. Aside from the fact that I found out that he had a staggering lack of integrity, I realized that our similarity was somewhat boring.
In contrast, I had dated a really nice guy whom I had very little in common with me, but who was very openminded, intellectual and had trustworthy. Because this guy was curious, we explored a lot of my interests and i learned a lot from him, too. He was not necessarily someone I would have chosen immediately based on our compatibility, but I had a great time dating him because of these factors. I take this as anecdotal proof of Evan’s advice to cast a wide net. Like Evan found a wife who made him feel great, I felt really lucky to have found a guy who was willing to try anything once with me, which is something that made me happy. While I’m not sure if this guy “got” me (he’s a techie, I’m an artist type), perhaps that is not as important as having a partner with integrity who is there for you in the good and the bad times.
Jadafisk 68
“And the couples who fall in love by their 70s and 80s… how do you think they do it?”
They usually don’t. The vast majority of singles have packed. it. up. by then. I don’t think extremely old people are all that concerned with dating. Most people’s hormones, general health, and therefore their immediate concerns, have changed drastically by that point in their lives. For the ones that are still concerned, some of them do see exactly what we see and refrain for that reason – all of their prospective unpaid partners look, feel and are very old.
Good character takes a pretty long time to suss out, way longer than attractiveness, charisma, compatibility, intelligence and humor. If those attributes are placed on the backburner in favor of character, will the extended time period spent looking for it be enjoyed or merely endured, especially if it ends in discovering that he’s not that great a person after all, in addition to being less attractive and/or interesting than the people you usually date?
Jadafisk 69
Sorry about that, Karl… the “select” mechanism went wonky and I couldn’t isolate, then copy+paste your quote, so I paraphrased.
Ruby 70
I certainly do know of elderly people who are actively dating or have rremarried. However, i was talking about a 40 year old being attracted to an 80 year old. Not too likely to happen.
Karl R 71
Jadafisk said: (#68)
“The vast majority of singles have packed. it. up. by then. I don’t think extremely old people are all that concerned with dating.”
Quoting an article on senior citizens and AIDS:
“Because they have a lot of free time, Agate said, seniors are more sexually active than most people think. ‘The nursing home staff say, “You wouldn’t believe how many times we have to pull people out of their rooms. They’re in their rooms having sex.” It’s a very big issue nursing home staffs have to deal with.’”
If the elderly are abstaining or engaging in monogamous behavior, how could they possibly be catching HIV through heterosexual transmission?
Think that one through.
Quoting another article on sex in nursing homes:
“There’s no reason to think that nursing-home residents would be any less frisky, if left to their own devices. After all, we’re talking about a mixed-sex population living in close quarters with almost endless amounts of free time. Already, staffers routinely field patient requests for personal lubricants, pornographic magazines, larger-size beds, and prescriptions for Viagra. And that’s with the 1.6 million elderly residents who came of age before the sexual revolution.”
Given that it’s the active interference by nursing homes which prevents a significant amount of sexual activity, what do you think happens in retirement communities and independent living centers where the residents have more autonomy and privacy?
And this article, which surprised me:
“Many women found that after an initial decrease in their 50s and 60s there was a resurgence of sexual appetite when they reached their 70s or even 80s.”
Several articles mentioned that overall health, not aging, was the primary indicator of sexual desire and activity among the elderly. Are you planning to be in poor health when you get into your 70s and 80s? I’m intending to maintain an active lifestyle.
Don’t feel too bad about not knowing this. Every article I skimmed mentioned how shockingly naive younger people (including medical professionals) were about the sexual habits of the elderly.
Ruby said: (#70)
“I certainly do know of elderly people who are actively dating or have rremarried. However, i was talking about a 40 year old being attracted to an 80 year old. Not too likely to happen.”
But when that same 40 year old gets to be 80, they probably will be attracted to 80 year olds.
The 80 year old has to adapt their standards of attractiveness (over time) if they want to find a partner. The 40 year old doesn’t need to … yet. I’d say that indicates that people can influence what they find attractive.
Margo 72
“I’d say that indicates that people can influence what they find attractive.”
@Karl. Most things are possible, Karl.
Reallity check: A 40-year-old finding a 80-year-old physically attracive? Not gonna happen.
james 73
I agree with karl on everything he has said so far… Keep dropping the truth hammer!!!!:)
starthrower 74
If attraction could be based entirely on logic, then Karl is completely correct. Some people will choose to look for different things, some will not. And they will decrease or increase their dating opportunities accordingly. That’s the bottom line. We can argue all day the numbers, how it should be, etc. The devil is in the details.
anamari 75
Why a guy want stick around to a woman if he is no longer so into her? If he is not so inlove with her anymore? If making love with her become a chore?
I have my own answer for this, but ofcourse, is only my ideea..
I belive, most of the times, they simply wait for us, women, to make the step, in that way they are free of guilt, they can say… was you who wanted to break up, and not me!!.. but in fact was everything about HIM
Most of the times, i think women dont walk away simply because they think that if men dont want break off, that mean they want us..
Margo 76
That would be “opinion” hammer.
Karl R 77
Margo said: (#72)
“Reallity check: A 40-year-old finding a 80-year-old physically attracive? Not gonna happen.”
Almost every 80 year old who finds another 80 year old physically attractive used to be a 40 year old who thought it wasn’t going to happen.
Have you ever watched someone try to do something that they believe is impossible? (Whether it’s a child trying to walk a balance beam or your mother trying to learn how to program a DVD-R.) As long as they’re convinced it’s impossible, they will sabotage their own efforts. It’s not until they decide that it is possible that they can begin to succeed.
And if a 40 year old is convinced that it is possible, then it probably takes a lot less then 40 years before it happens.
I don’t think it’s a good idea for 40 year olds to date 80 year olds (for reasons that have nothing to do with physical attractiveness). But if it’s possible to find 80 year olds attractive, how much easier is it to find someone attractive despite cottage cheese thighs, or stretch marks, or a pot belly, or a bald head?
This shift doesn’t happen overnight (even if you believe it’s possible), but if you gradually expand the number of people you find physically attractive, then you expand your dating pool.
Sarah 78
Karl,
I can’t speak for Margo but I think the idea isn’t so much that 80-year-olds are flat-out unattractive period. I think it’s more that they are not desirable to 40-year-olds when the 40-year-olds are 40.
Personally, I would prefer someone close to my generation. Right now, that’s someone in his 30s. When I’m 80, then I’ll prefer someone close to that age — not a 30-year-old! I want someone who is approximately my peer. I think a lot of people share that preference.
Margo 60,
Because I have no better prospects right now and I’d rather be with him than nobody. Also it’s possible that he’ll become more attractive to me over time (it’s happened before with other guys). What puts me off about him has to do with his personality; I don’t like kissing him because he has been too pushy about it at times. He may be getting better about it, less pushy, and therefore more attractive. In short, I’m just not ready to write him off altogether because it could still get better. (And because I’d prefer him over nothing.)
Margo 79
Sarah, in reading all you wrote about this guy, I’d let him go. You’re batting zero with this guy. You feel NO attraction, you don’t feel good when you’re around him, and you don’t like his personality. Sometimes, if a person has a good personality, that can create attraction within the other person. This guy doesn’t. Not to say his personality is wrong, it’s just not what you prefer. If it were me, I wouldn’t waste months, or years hoping that his personality will change. Personalities don’t change.
You stated he has a good job, stable family, etc., However, taking into account his personailty, the tradeoff will be having to be stuck with a boring, cold, partner who doesn’t excite you.
Sarah 80
Thank you for the advice, Margo. I appreciate it.
I guess I have been holding onto the possibility that his personality could change. And this is based on my suspicion that he has already improved somewhat, and that wants to be what I want. I haven’t sat him down and had a talk with him about what I don’t like about him — not an easy thing to do! I can’t help thinking that if I told him how he comes across, he would want to do better and would try to. However, I also suspect that it would feel less than genuine to me if he acts interested in what I say only because I asked him to. That’s the sort of thing you shouldn’t have to ask for. And, I mean, it shouldn’t be an act.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.
Karl R 81
Sarah said: (#80)
“I guess I have been holding onto the possibility that his personality could change.”
If he’s young and you think he’s immature, then you might be in luck. Otherwise, people’s personalities change slowly, not necessarily in the way you would like, and change less and less with age … until TIAs, strokes and Alzheimer’s start drastically rewriting the map.
I don’t count on my girlfriend changing. And I wouldn’t put up with a girlfriend trying to change me.
AS 82
Great insights! I think sometimes when you have been single for a while, it’s easy to get caught up with ‘unrequited love’ as you’re really keen to have someone in your life and feel like it’s better to have ‘something’ rather than nothing. You convince yourself that you are being proactive, when in fact deep down inside you know you are not. But letting go of this person would mean that you then have to really put yourself out there… which is fearful & overwhelming so you continue to turn the other cheek until the reality smacks you in the mouth…
LookingForLove31 83
Very true! The longer you spend with someone who doesn’t love you, the longer it will be until you find “The One.” As you said, someone who seems too into you is unappealing, so it’s all about finding the right balance.
Sarah 84
Karl,
There was a time I would have agreed with you. Used to be I’d never try to change someone; it’s disrespectful and likely to be ineffective. Instead, I’d walk away. But as I’ve grown more mature I’ve realized that the idea of change isn’t so black-and-white.
I’ve known people who would WANT to change if their behavior is objectionable. They don’t always realize how they come across, and they’d rather have their SO tell them what they don’t like… so they can change. Because they want to be better people. Because it’s preferable to kick that annoying habit (and be more likable to everyone, not just the SO) than to lose someone you love.
So if I told my guy that he doesn’t make me feel heard, and I want to be with someone who does, he can either try to be the kind of person I want, or let me go. Does that mean I’m trying to change him? No, not at all. It means I respect myself enough to know that I shouldn’t be with someone who doesn’t make me feel good, and if he isn’t that person then he can either become that person or lose me. It’s up to him. I’m not trying to make him anything. I’m telling him what I need and letting him decide whether or not to be that. (Hypothetically, of course. In reality I probably won’t say this to him.)
Didn’t someone say something about how Karl always picks apart everyone else’s posts? Is he deliberately trying to be difficult? Does he honestly not understand the difference between trying to change someone and telling someone that their behavior rubs you the wrong way?
Sarah 85
Also, Karl, you might do well to look at context before you compose your counterargument, rather than lifting out one sentence and isolating it. If you had kept reading, you would have seen where I said “And this is based on my suspicion that he has already improved somewhat, and that wants to be what I want.”
The truth is, he HAS improved, noticeably, since I’ve been with him. I think it’s entirely possible that some of his unattractive behavior was due to nerves and extreme shyness. So, no, I’m not holding out for Alzheimer’s, and you’d have known I didn’t have to, had you kept reading before reacting.
Karl R 86
Sarah said: (#84)
“Does [Karl] honestly not understand the difference between trying to change someone and telling someone that their behavior rubs you the wrong way?”
Are you aware of any bad habits that you have? If you’re reasonably self-aware, you have a lot of insight into what your less appealing traits are. In fact, you probably know those traits and habits better than your boyfriend (since you’ve known yourself a lot longer than he has). I doubt that you’re telling your boyfriend any new information.
If your boyfriend’s behavior rubs you the wrong way, there are two ways to “fix” the problem:
1. He can change his behavior.
2. You can stop being bothered by it.
Which option do you think you have more control over?
I would say 2. The only circumstance when I would recommend 1. (telling him that his behavior bothers you and seeing what he does) is when 2. is impossible, where you would have to break up with him if he didn’t change.
Sarah said: (#84)
“So if I told my guy that he doesn’t make me feel heard, and I want to be with someone who does, he can either try to be the kind of person I want, or let me go.”
If his behavior is unacceptable, this is the best way to address the situation. But at that point, I’d say you need to be willing to walk away, because that’s the more common outcome.
Sarah said: (#84)
“I’ve known people who would WANT to change if their behavior is objectionable. They don’t always realize how they come across, and they’d rather have their SO tell them what they don’t like… so they can change. Because they want to be better people. Because it’s preferable to kick that annoying habit (and be more likable to everyone, not just the SO) than to lose someone you love.”
How many times have you changed your personality, because your significant other told you what he didn’t like about your personality?
If you do it in every relationship, then it’s reasonable to believe that your boyfriend would do the same. If it’s something you’ve done once in your whole life, then it’s probably a long-shot.
Sarah said: (#85)
“The truth is, he HAS improved, noticeably, since I’ve been with him. I think it’s entirely possible that some of his unattractive behavior was due to nerves and extreme shyness.”
That’s not a change in his personality. That’s you getting a better understanding of who he really is.
If you want to stick with a guy long enough to see what his personality is really like (behind the nerves, shyness or whatever else), that’s a reasonable plan.
Sarah said: (#80 & #85)
“And this is based on my suspicion that he has already improved somewhat, and that wants to be what I want.”
What would you think of a woman who had a boyfriend who didn’t like her personality, but she wanted to change her personality to become what he wanted her to be?
That woman sounds kind of spineless, doesn’t she?
Let’s assume for a moment that your suspicion about your boyfriend is correct. Most women (or at least most of the female readers on this blog) would dump any man who was that spineless. It’s possible that you are an exception.
I’m willing to listen to my girlfriend’s opinion about superficial changes (for example, which style of glasses frames she thinks I’d look good in), but my personality is integral to who I am. That’s non-negotiable.
Margo 87
@Karl 86. Karl, what woud you do if you smoked and drinked and a girlfriend wanted you to change those things because she couldn’t live with them? Woud you? Obviously it would be for your own good as well because eventually the smoker and alcoholic ruins their own health. It’s not a personality change of course, it’s a behavioral change.
A man wanted to date me once, and still does, but there is no way in HELL I’d ever consider being with an alcoholic or smoker.
For those on here who have run into this situation, did you ask for change? Or just walk?
starthrower68 88
You walk. If you can’t accept someone as they are then that is your best option. It doesn’t matter how right you are about smoking and drinking being bad for him. If he doesn’t want to change, he’s not going to. People generally do what they WANT to do. If there’s no way in HELL you’d ever consider being with an alcholic or a smoker, then fine, don’t be with one. But no one is going to change him.
Goldie 89
Agree with Starthrower, but for a different reason. It’s not that they don’t want to change for you, it’s that they probably can’t. Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances. According to this link, it’s as addictive as heroine: http://www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html Alcoholism (not to be confused with occasional social drinking) is a disease that some resources believe to be hereditary: http://www.disability-resource.com/medical-health/alcoholism/ If I knew I couldn’t live with an alcoholic or smoker, I’d walk, because the chances of them being able to quit and stick with it are pretty low, and I wouldn’t want to take those chances.
Karl R 90
Margo asked: (#87)
“Karl, what woud you do if you smoked and drinked and a girlfriend wanted you to change those things because she couldn’t live with them? Woud you?”
I drink regularly, so I’ll use that as an example. My typical consumption is one glass of red wine per day, either when I’m out, or after my girlfriend and I come home in the evening.
If a girlfriend did not like being around alcohol, I would not keep it or consume it in the house. I would also be willing to forgo it when we were out together. If she were a recovered alcoholic, I would take those steps (without having to be asked) just to keep the temptation away from her. That’s the extent I would be willing to change my behavior to respect her boundaries.
However, I would continue to drink socially when she wasn’t around (office happy hours, wine & cheese with the choir after rehearsal), and I wouldn’t make a secret of it. If she expects me to stop drinking altogether, she is not respecting my boundaries. She is also showing a distinct lack of trust in my ability to drink responsibly.
I’ve had three girlfriends who didn’t drink, These issues were addressed during the first few dates. I always knew their reasons before we dated exclusively.
Goldie said: (#89)
“If I knew I couldn’t live with an alcoholic or smoker, I’d walk, because the chances of them being able to quit and stick with it are pretty low, and I wouldn’t want to take those chances.”
I agree.
If someone has managed to quit and stick with it for more than one year, I’d be willing to take the chance. But if they were still at the point of trying to quit, I wouldn’t.
Juniper 91
I agree with the gist of what Evan is saying here and it makes sense to me. I have been trying to do this in my life after running after some guys who I thought were great for me but who did not want me. However, I feel like I am running into another issue – Evan makes it sounds like so easy – you respond to people who want you and there you have something that works. In my case, more than once, once I started responding to guys who were acting like they were into me or want me, once I started showing I liked them, they stopped being into me and gave me the cold shoulder, which is frankly even more painful for me… I wonder what I am doing wrong…
Margo 92
Goldie and Karl, thanks for your replies. Karl, I don’t mind social drinking. I partake myself from tme to time. According to reports I have been given from friends, the guy in question is an alcoholic or at the very least an abusive drinker. I’m talking about alcoholic rages, drinking binges etc. So, even if I wasn’t interested in someone else, it would be a no-go unless he was willing to address his problems.
starthrower68 93
@Margo #87,
My tone was harsher than I meant for it to be when I responded to your post. I apologize for that. I didn’t mean to be so contentious.
Margo 94
Starthrower, no need for apologies. I didn’t take your post as hostile in any way. You were just telling it like it is.
melie 95
Hmm! I would like to see less critiquing of others opinions and more of your own!
I am a 50 something single white female and am constantly being pursued by younger men. Men with morals, integrity and excellent salaries are available in all age groups. I don’t want a fling, but am looking for that person that I am attracted to on all levels:emotional, physical and intellectual. There are some real jerks in the dating world, and there are some real psychos, and there are some real losers, and there are some really great guys out there for those willing to sift through the dross. Sometimes you just can’t tell the difference until you get to know them, and the outcome is not always pleasant. Just because someone wants you, doesn’t mean you want them. The real challenge is in knowing the difference and discovering that person that wants you and that you want; that is matched morally to you and that wants to be loved and love. There are some men that just want to be “playboys” and there are some women who consistently move from one short term relationship to another, having no intention of becoming a LTR. You can’t tell the difference with them sometimes either, until getting to know them. You can feel that your time is wasted, but I choose to think of my time as well spent, because I am looking and seeking the one that is right for me. Yay! I am making the effort to go out with different types of men to discover that one. And he is willing to meet with me to discover if I am the one for him. Isn’t that what dating is supposed to be about anyway?
Thanks,
Melie
m 96
“In my case, more than once, once I started responding to guys who were acting like they were into me or want me, once I started showing I liked them, they stopped being into me and gave me the cold shoulder, which is frankly even more painful for me…”
Juniper @ 91 brings up something that’s been brought up and brought up by ladies, and not just in this thread. Yet it continues to go unaddressed …
InsertPseudonymHere 97
Now you know what it is like being a guy! Every male experiences of responding to women/girls (yes, this goes all the way back to middle school) who were acting like they were into us, and then get shut down. Turns out we weren’t responding to interest. We read too much into whatever they were doing. No doubt in Juniper’s case she is misreading these men. Yes, it does smart. You have to get used to it or resign yourself to being single aeturnus/aeturna.
Joe 98
Perhaps a better title for this blog post would be “Don’t Want the Man Who Doesn’t Want You!”
MH 99
I agree with much of what Evan is saying, but I have to challenge this a bit. I had been with one guy for almost 5 years that wanted to marry me (and called me since our break up) and he put me on a pedestal.
At the same time, though, there were a number of red flags. I eventually realized he was critical at times of me and my friends and just had no ambition. He also carried a lot of financial debt. The final dealbreaker involved a relative of mine and he was upset that I wouldn’t agree to what he wanted.
So right now, I’m just going to date for fun, I will state what I want and don’t want. And if the guy doesn’t want it or can’t compromise, that’s fine.