What’s the Difference Between Settling and Compromising?

One of the big points of having your own money – at least as a man – is that you don’t have to be with someone else who has money. This keeps our dating options extremely wide, because it allows us to look for women who are attractive, cool and nurturing – without having to restrict ourselves to the top 5% of earners like so many women appear to, in spite of the fact that they’re already in the top 5% themselves.

Most women spend their whole lives overestimating men based on their credentials rather than their character.

As a well-off woman who is equal to a man, you really need to start seeing yourself as equal. Which means recalibrating the kind of guy who fits for you, the same way that most men do. From your letter, you talk about your propensity for alpha males, who are often the worst candidates for long-term relationships because they tend to be egocentric hunters.

And until you start to appreciate the virtues of the nice, cute guy with a stable job, a ton of integrity, and the desire to be a great dad, you may find that dating is a rough road for you. This fictional guy, by the way, IS in the 90th percentile – not based on his paycheck or his washboard abs, but based on his ability to be your husband.

Overall, Sophie, you seem like you know yourself very well. The only thing I’m questioning here is whether you truly know what’s good for you.

Compromise is good. Settling is not.

And a sane, funny, loyal, attractive man who makes $60K and forgives all your faults should be in any woman’s 90th percentile.

Thanks for your thoughtful email. Good luck.

Evan

P.S. By the way, in regards to this line, “it would be much easier to just have your own kids and date whomever I want on the side.” Go read Lori Gottlieb’s “Marry Him: the Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough” for a glimpse into the dating life of a single mother. No time. No financial, emotional or physical support from a father. Not to mention that most thirtysomething guys want to date women unencumbered by responsibility. Hate to say it, but being a single mom is about the worst thing you can do for your love life. Sorry.

For a deeper understanding of what qualities you should be looking for in a man, I invite you to check out “Why He Disappeared – the Smart, Strong, Successful Woman’s Guide to Understanding Men and Keeping the Right One Hooked Forever”.

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186 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice

186 Responses to “What’s the Difference Between Settling and Compromising?”

CS 1

Cannot emphasize enough the importance of girling up the look a bit. No, it shouldn’t matter so much, blah blah blah, whatever, get the first date. If you’re not already quite pretty, see a dermatologist, pay more than you ever have for really good haircuts, wear makeup for most dates (pass if it’s kayaking or similar!), consider contacts, wear cute heels, stop wearing so much black and tweed. You have to get a foot in the door, and if you’re an alpha female you have to do that by playing up your feminine side.
Helen 2

Thanks, Evan. Sophie’s letter absolutely made me cringe, but your response about equality was right on the mark.

As I mentioned in your previous post: we women are the ones who are sabotaging ourselves in the battle to gain equal pay for equal work. Sophie’s line about wanting to give up control to her man was just… just… well, I don’t want to say anything too negative. I’m older than she is, and I’ve seen too much of the world to know what can happen if a woman just wants to give up all her control that way. The result ain’t pretty.

C’mon, women. Being strong in ourselves doesn’t make us less women; it makes us MORE women. There is nothing sweet or charming about deliberate weakness. You might as well have a bullseye target on your forehead.
Bill 3

The problem with finding a guy in the top 80% plus is that every women is chasing after them. The higher they are the more unavailable they are to you. If you keep on chasing after these certain guys your most viable assets which is your youth will disappear rapidly.

I hate to say this men who are in the top 90% want looks first than personality because they can get it easily. Looks is not just cloths makeup and etc – it is youth. Youth for a women is the equivalent of success for a man. If you want a super successful man (90+ percent) the most likely you were able to achieve this was when you were under 30 or significant difference in beauty.

I would also say women who are in the top 90% also have horrible personalities. Successful men 90% plus in our society is defined by having a family with a trophy wife that is able to produce four beauitiful kids. Realistically that 90% guy does not want you because you can not give him what he wants is that family. Very successful men are attracted to nurturing women who can take care of his kids.
There are realtionships where 90% top women are with 95% of men. In those relationships women are doing the majority of the courting and etc. If you want one of these guys you have to go seek them out and do the majority of the courting. At the end of the day they don’t want someone as successful as them they want someone who is nurturing who can become a amazing mother for his kids.
C. 4

I sooooo want a sane, funny, loyal, attractive man who makes $60K and forgives all my faults. Now where the heck is he?
Karl R 5

Sophie said: (original post)
“From the practical standpoint, a man who makes less than I do becomes a financial liability.”

I don’t see how this happens. Let’s say you earn $90k per year (95th percentile for women, or a little higher). Let’s say I earn $40k per year (about 60th percentile for men).

When I earned $40k (or less), I easily supported myself. I paid for my rent, my utilities, my food, my entertainment, my bad habits…. I did this without assistance from anyone.

If we start living together (which probably means that I move in with you, since your place is nicer), your rent/mortgage stays the same, your utilities increase slightly, and your food bill goes up substantially.

The increase in your food bill is due to the food I’m eating … which I’m accustomed to paying for, so I’ll continue to do so.

The increase in utilities is less than the amount I was paying for utilities at my place. I can cover that expense and go somewhat beyond it (up to the amount I was paying for utilities).

While your rent/mortgage is unchanged, I can pay towards it an amount equal to my rent.

I can pay all of the above expenses without cutting into my disposable income at all. Your cost of living, however, drops by the amount I pay towards your rent/mortgage … giving you an increase in your disposable income.

How does a financially independent person become a drain on your fincances? As long as that person is financially responsible (and doesn’t quit his/her job or start spending more money just because there’s a joint income), that person contributes more than they use.
starthrower68 6

@ C. #4,

I know, right? I’m with you.

Evidently, Sophie has no clue what it’s like to be a single parent. If she thinks its really that easy, she should try it some time. I’ve been doing it for 7 years and and on an income below $50K. She must be getting her impression of single parenthood from the tabloids where celebs collect kids like jewelry or something.

If Sophie has the looks, I will recommend sugardaddie.com….
Ruby 7

Bill #3

“I would also say women who are in the top 90% also have horrible personalities”

You mean 10%, I assume? I’m not sure how you happen to know this as a statement of fact. But you would say that is not true for the top 10% of male earners?

This picks up on the previous post regarding male/female incomes, but I’m a bit surprised it hasn’t been mentioned yet. It’s interesting to me that we assume that a wealthy man is necessarily a great partner just because he’s wealthy. I would think that the wealthiest men are not around very much, because they’re super type-A personalities, off working very long hours (“egocentric hunters”). Although women have been traditionally encouraged to seek providers, maybe that is less important than a man’s ability to be loving and present.
Chris 8

I admit that a relationship between a mid-income guy and a high-income woman has a lot of complications, but a guy who makes $60 a year isn’t going to be a financial drag unless you want to have a very luxurious lifestyle. If you don’t need to sleep in a chic hotel, if you don’t need to live in the town/neighborhood that has everything, if you don’t care if you don’t drive a BMW, the guy with $60k a year is going to be a net asset for you even if he pays less than half the rent or mortgage. (assume you pay $1500 a month. A guy with $60k can easily pay half of that. Even if he only pays $500 you are still saving $6000 a year!)

Finally, being a single mom is very hard and very expensive. The salary of a nanny is going to be much higher than the upkeep of a stay at home dad, not to mention much, much higher than the upkeep of a beta man who still makes a real salary. Plus a father is probably going to do a better job raising your kids than a nanny would.

Even if you can easily afford a nanny as a single mom, your kid is going to lose out on having a paternal family. Sperm donor kids have a variety of issues.

http://www.slate.com/id/2256212/
Lea 9

“One of the big points of having your own money – at least as a man – is that you don’t have to be with someone else who has money. This keeps our dating options extremely wide, because it allows us to look for women who are attractive, cool and nurturing – without having to restrict ourselves to the top 5% of earners like so many women appear to, in spite of the fact that they’re already in the top 5% themselves.”

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of men who obviously do not feel this way at all.
If they have money and you don’t….they seem to be afraid that you are with them just for that reason…..or that once a woman “has” them, they can quit their jobs and live off of him for the rest of their lives.

My last relationship was a perfect example. We were together for 3 years and lived together for 2 of them.
After we moved in together I lost my job and was not able to find another position. He obviously resented the fact that I wasn’t pulling my own weight financially. Even though he said he enjoyed all the benefits of having a full time “housewife”, and it made life less stressful for him…..one of the lovely things he said to me before he walked out was “I can’t be with someone who can’t stand on their own two feet.”

Now I could understand if money was a problem and I was demanding expensive jewelry, designer clothes and monthly spa treatments, but that was not the case at all. He makes 100,000 a year and I never spent any of his money on myself.

I don’t think that men think of themselves in the role of provider anymore.
Shalini 10

@ C. #4,
Yeah… me too…
And i dont understand what part of being a single mother is easy!!! The responsibilities of a mother are not easy even when you’re not single!!! I guess people should try to understand how their parents raised them!!
C. 11

Chris, also on Slate was this article: http://www.slate.com/id/2261249/
I agree, lower income men are more likely to cook, do housework and take care of the kids, I’ve seen it with my friends who are SAHDs. Personally, I prefer the office, so I’d be happy with one of these guys. What to avoid are the guys that grew up rich, because they are least likely to do domestic duties, even when they are unemployed (like the nymag article you’ve posted before). So, I guess if a woman really wants to take care of the home and not just lounge in luxury all day, maybe they would make a good match for the alpha male…that is if they ever land one.
moon 12

A fascinating topic. Only the two attorney friends I have make 60K or more. The rest of us are way, way below that; welcome to Montana! Money is not a topic for mate selection, as far as I know. If they can hold a job, good enough!

moon
Selena 13

@ Moon #12

“If they can hold a job, good enough!” Yep. True for most folks. These rich women are a small, niche group – one must be kind to them.
Christine 14

Find a bloke you like and see what happens. Who cares what you earn? Who cares what he earns? I think the emphasis on money is worrying. Be a nice decent caring person and stop thinking too much.
C. 15

Lea, that exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. Her boyfriend who she lives with is in tv production and makes 6 figures. She is not a gold digger but became unemployed last year for 6 months and relied on him to pay their rent. He told her that he will not marry her until she gets a job, because he doesn’t want a wife to burden him like his mother did his dad. So yeah, just because a guy makes more doesn’t mean he wants you depending on him.
Helen 16

To get to Ruby’s point about high-earning men not necessarily being good partners, I’d like to highlight a quote from the article C. mentioned:

“Since 2007, sociologists Carla Shows and Naomi Gerstel have been studying two groups of fathers: high-earning, highly-educated physicians; and low-income, less-educated emergency medical technicians. They find that the EMTs are much more active participants in their children’s daily routines. They pick the kids up from daycare, feed them dinner, and schedule their hours or trade shifts with other EMTs to stay home when a child is ill. The physicians, by contrast, put very little time into and show little understanding of the daily routines of family life. Instead, they see themselves as “good fathers” because they attend their children’s special events, such as sports activities and performances that occur on weekends or in the evening. The researchers conclude that the professionals are performing the public aspects of fatherhood, while neglecting the private ones, whereas the EMTs perform both.”

Obviously, not all high-earning dads are neglectful of family. But there’s enough to make a statistically significant study as demonstrated above.

When you get to be like me, married with kids, you realize that far more important than a hubby’s high salary is his willingness to pitch in to household duties, which include childcare and bills and home maintenance. Believe me, when you have kids, even if you had lots of disposable income, you won’t have TIME to spend it on luxuries and trips anyway!

The overemphasis on moolah is such a detriment to women looking for partners. It won’t be what makes them happy and fulfilled in the long run. Look for stability and kindness instead.
Suzanne 17

@ Helen #16 — Amen to that. And to many of the comments regarding Sophie’s idea of just having some babies on her own and still having a dating life “on the side.”   Reality check, please?

I know the use of percentages is only meant as a guide and is not scientific, but it still makes me cringe. How do you put a rating on sincerity, humanitarian-ism, outrageous sense of humor, or killer cook? The only objective category is income, and my experience with people with lotsa money is that they tend to not want to share.  So, for me, the question is not “How much money does he make?” but rather: How generous is he? Does he consider it a privilege to be able to share what he has with someone who loves him, nurtures him, and would stand by him in tough times?   That’s what I’m looking for when it comes to “assets.” Unless a woman is really hoping to find a man to fully support her and provide her with status, then his income should not be an issue. I make a good salary, certainly not anywhere near the top 90%, but I can support myself.  If a man does not drain my resources, or maybe even enhances them in any way (household workload sharing, for example, or excellent popcorn maker), then I don’t care what he makes.

And I realize I will have to get in line here, but…that funny, loyal, attractive man who makes $60 a year? Send him over!
Steve 18

Hi Sophie;
I don’t mean this as an insult, I just don’t know how to say it clearly without it sounding like a cliche or an insult.   Your email to Evan seems to reflect an author who is quite full of herself.

I have to apologize, but I don’t think I can articulate precisely what contributes to that impression.

Not finding someone attractive is fair enough.   It happens every day.

You might want to think about learning how not to evaluate people by money and not thinking that you are “better” than many people.

Those kinds of attitudes tend to seep out in between the lines no matter what or how smoothly people say other things.
I respect your willingness to alter your behavior.   Many people complain, few try something different.

Good Luck
Steve 19

Is it just me or does it seem like that these “alpha women” who write in only seem to encounter men at one or the other extreme? Super duper high earner at the one extreme or the lazy slacker at the other? Either the man is daddy warbucks or a “financial liability”. What happened to all of the men in between who work hard, have great careers, are good looking are who about something, but who are not the absolute top earners?
Karl R 20

Steve said: (#18)
“You might want to think about learning how not to evaluate people by money and not thinking that you are ‘better’ than many people.”

I agree with that statement, particularly the second half.

People aren’t linear. There is no absolute measure of quality. Most people will be better than me in some areas and worse in others. If you say “I’m better than that person,” what you really mean is that you’re better than them in X, Y and Z traits … and you consider those traits to be more important than L, M and N traits where that person is better than you.

And you can tell a lot about a person by which traits they value … and which traits they don’t.
hunter 21

Say, EMK,

You defined settling, and compromise, tell us about, “acceptance,” ….. or have you already done
that?…
C. 22

Steve said, “What happened to all of the men in between who work hard, have great careers, are good looking”
I know you aren’t directing this question at me–I’m certainly not an alpha female, and I’m on the end thats always falling for the charismatic poor guys who don’t want kids–but in my experience the good ones that fit the description above are already married, and the ones that aren’t, well, there is just something lacking. I went on a few dates with guys like this when I first started online dating. The first guy was just sooooo boring. No charisma at all, even though he was good-looking. I need laughter on dates, and not only was this guy not funny, but didn’t even crack a smile at my attempts at jokes. I thought maybe I bombed the date somehow, but he ended up asking me out again. I went on the second date, and it was the same thing! He was sad that I turned down a third, but at that point I’d rather stay home and read. Another guy I tried was funny and all those other things and on our second date we kissed…and there was just no spark. It was just so, *polite* :/ I guess he felt the same way, because he didn’t call again. Anyway, I keep on keeping on.
Tony G. Rocco 23

Sophie might consider herself in the 90th percentile, but materialistic women who judge themselves and others based on their financial status are, ironically, a dime a dozen and rate in the bottom 10% as far as I am concerned. I would never want a woman with her distorted, greed-driven values. I didn’t hear a word about the importance of having a man who is warm, giving, compassionate, sensitive or intelligent, just more mindless alpha-male bullshit that sounds more like it comes from the mouth of some sleazy pickup artist than a high-quality female.
Evan Marc Katz 24

I’m wondering where all the regular women posters are. Lots of guys taking shots at Sophie for stating her mind. Any defenders?
starthrower68 25

Well Evan, I will defend her as far to say if she will accept nothing less than Mr. GQ earning 6 figures a year then it’s a free country and she is certainly within her rights to hold out or pursue that. Maybe she’s not looking for a guy who will be available as opposed to being married to his work. Maybe as long as the house, private school for the kids, vacations, and country club membership are there, that’s enough. But, we can all point to a great many unhappy rich folks out there, no?
Christie Hartman, PhD 26

Well Evan, I’m a woman, but you won’t find me defending this one. I’m always very leery of people, male or female, who describe themselves in terms of percentiles – it smacks of narcissism. And I’ve found that those who put their fists in the air and say “I refuse to settle!” are often looking for a fantasy, not love. This woman, despite her lengthy email, never mentioned love.
Helen 27

Evan #24, why would any woman defend Sophie? Responding to your exhortation, I read her letter again TRYING to look for the good in it… and again I got that feeling of complete ickiness. I want to sympathize - she’s a sister - but just can’t.

There are so many awful things in this letter that others have already pointed out. Calling herself 90th percentile. Categorically putting down men whom she deems “below” her (in what, exactly?). Assigning numbers to men and judging them accordingly. The silly cluelessness about what it takes to raise children, and downplaying the importance of a partner in that effort. The gag-worthy line about wanting to relinquish her control to a man. Her attempts to change herself to get guys, rather than being comfortable and happy in her own skin, which really is the most attractive trait of all. Her “encouragement” to other successful women to behave as she does.

Add to this that it doesn’t seem a very coherent or rationally thought-out letter, but just relies on a string of cliches. Just because someone is “stating her mind” doesn’t mean that it’s palatable or reasonable. I don’t want to just leave her in a lurch, though, so would really suggest that she make girlfriends who are 10-20 years older than she is to give her some desperately needed clues about life. And that she learn to be truly happy with herself, so that she can spread that happiness to others rather than critically assigning them percentiles far below herself.
Ruby 28

It’s ironic that someone who puts themselves in the “90th percentile in looks, intelligence and income” feels so insecure about herself that she has to re-think ”the way I speak and (make) an effort to not express any strong opinions”, and is so desperate to find a guy that she can no longer even wear a pair of “trousers.”

As far as being a single mom, how is having to hire a nanny to take care of her kids less of a financial liability than having a “60% guy”? Not to mention the lack of support from a caring partner?

It’s been my experience that the people who have the least humility, those who are quick to trumpet how stellar they are, quite often have an over-inflated sense of their own worth and abilities.
Cat 29

In defense of Sophie…. Well, I can’t seem to finish that sentence. I agree with Evan that she’ll have a terrible time trying to raise a kid on her own and date on the side. That would drop her out of her 90th percentile for most guys!

I do understand her protectiveness towards towards her finances–I know a woman with that very high income who is losing most of it in her second divorce to a guy she financially supported. (And now she’s that single mom finding it nearly impossible to date on the side.) However, that’s where pre-nups could ease her mind. Or some sort of financial counseling before marriage. Just being in a relationship with someone who earns less is NOT a liability (if you’re paying attention to what else they offer!)

As for wanting a guy who’s a leader, I suggest she find a partner and learn to tango. Seriously. Speaking as someone who’s her own boss and making creative decisions all day, it’s important to find time to throw on some heels and let someone else be the leader. She’ll feel protected and feminine and all of those things she’s talking about. But wanting a round-the-clock alpha male? Time to rethink that.

I had a first (and last) blind date with a world traveling, multi-language speaking, fiscally-successful alpha male last week. He snatched the menu from my hands and ordered a salad for us to share for dinner (without asking) and then spent the rest of the evening complaining bitterly how he hated the city we lived in (which he’d never explored) and intended to return to Jersey. Oh, that’s when he wasn’t checking “work email” or texting, which was about 50% of the date.

He was actually surprised I didn’t want to see him again or extend the date. You can bet he’s certain he’s in the 90th percentile of “looks, intelligence and income.” But my second date is going to the Asian guy with diabetes and three kids. Because he is much better “husband material,” as Evan put it. He was warm, interesting, attentive and showed great self-awareness and humor. That makes me feel much more “protected” and attracted than a big bank account!

You should consider your big bank account that golden ticket that frees you up to select a guy on core values, rather than his income.
Shay 30

Wow….Helen (#27).

I don’t think this letter is awful. Sure, there are some stuff people don’t agree. All the commenters made valid points.

However, I do admire Sophie. She knows herself very well. Knows what it is about her that attracts the kind of guy she wants and what don’t. She made changes to herself which I only recently thought of. Sounds like she’s the same age as me, similar dating difficulties has already done a lot to improve her dating life.

I must say, Wow, Sophie. Thanks for affirming my decision to makes changes to myself. It really takes humility to do that. I admire that.

After consultation with a guy whom I went on 4 dates with (most number of dates as I begin my dating life, embarrass to say)….he has chosen another girl to be his gf. Which I am fine. I turned him and a couple of girl friends into my dating coaching group….he suggested I made changes to my dressing. I bring the girls shopping with me to see what clothes flatter me. That kick start my Project Feminity.

Great point to say “I feel” instead of “I think”. I’ll try that too!! I’ve incorporated more dresses into my work wardrobe. Time to buy some dresses for my casual wear.

Its great to see this letter and of course, I do learn from Evan’s feedback to Sophie as well. Thanks Sophie, for being brave enough to write in and state your mind.
Shay 31

Ruby (#28), I don’t think Sophie feels insecure. She just knows what she wants and how to get it. If you think about it, its only when one is secure in oneself and confident, then one can do as she does.
Margaret 32

It really concerns me how little regard Sophie has for her theoretical future children. Those children need a good, caring father and a good, caring mother. Until she’s reasonably sure that they’ll have both for the next 18+ years, she shouldn’t have them.
Shay 33

There are 2 types of female commenting on this blog.

1. Those who think the world (or men) should change to fit them.
2. Those who seek to understand the difficulties, learn to accept and take action to solve the problem.

I want results, so I refuse to be in the first group.

As Evan said in another blog post, why we remain single is because
1. The men we want don’t want us.
2. We don’t want the men who want us.

As a girl who is a go-getter, I analyze the situation like this.
1. Do something to be more attractive to the men whom I want but don’t want me.
2. Re-evaluate what I want in men. I might start to appreciate the men who want me but I don’t want.

Both are not easy to do. But taking dating as a learning process, I get nearer to what I want if I stand by my principles to be “comfortable in my own skin”. I think I’ll just be trapping myself between a wall and a hard place.

I guess Sophie has done no. 1. Could be time to do no. 2.
Shay 34

Opps. I mean RATHER than stand by my principles to be “comfortable in my own skin”.
Mr_Right 35

I would also like to note that her attitude of not needing a man for kids would be a turn off to many men.

I’m not sure women realize this, but men DO look at a woman not only as a potential mate, but as a potential mother as well. A huge majority of single men do want to have kids someday, and if a woman is saying that she doesn’t need a man for kids (I suppose this means she can visit a sperm bank and have a kid on her own), many men would ask what the point would be in dating her in the first place.
christina 36

I don’t care if a man is at 90% or at 60%(but he should be at least financially successful that means he should not be below 40 or 35% that will be settling not compromising) So i want a man who can love share my bed give me beautiful kids and stay with me until my hair turns grey…But if you are able to find a guy who is at 90% and yet grounded,loving and caring that also be great. Here I want to say that I don’t think that every 90% man will be mean and full ego, he can also be a nice and cute guy, who know what love means..(they all cant be bad)
Helen 37

Shay, when it comes to attracting good-quality guys, how far does it get women to give up their principles and to NOT be comfortable in their own skin? Not far, sorry to say. It reeks of desperation, and desperation is unattractive.

Standing by principles and being comfortable with yourself are two of the most important personal convictions you can have in life. They work for everything, your job and your relationships included.

Take this from someone who still gets hit on nearly every day despite being an ardent feminist and married 10 years with kids. The secret is to love men for who they are, and to love yourself for who you are. Not a gimmick, not an item of clothing.
Goldie 38

@ Christie #26: Love, you mean that warm and fuzzy feeling that tends to wear out 2-3 years into the marriage? In my layman’s opinion, love is great, but you’ve got to have something that will keep both of you happy together after it’s gone. Mutual respect and support would be a good place to start. Being interesting to each other and knowing how to have fun together could be another thing. I’m still working on the complete list.

I am still not sure what to say about Sophie’s letter, though. Looks like she wants completely different things out of a relationship than I would. She appears to be looking for a man with credentials. When I start looking seriously, I’ll probably be looking for someone I could be happy living with, and he with me. Any requirements (intelligence, attitude, professionalism etc) would be the means to that end. Also, what Sophie says about being a single parent is just silly. Why wouldn’t a woman in the proverbial 90th percentile at least try to give her future children a happy two-parent family, since she has the means to attract the right guy for that, you know, being in the 90th percentile and all? I’d say she probably haven’t given the subject of parenting any serious thought yet. That part of her letter wasn’t well thought out at all, IMO.

In Sophie’s defense, I see percentiles and scores being used all the time on this site, in comments as well as in Evan’s posts. Maybe that’s where she picked that stuff up Personally I am not a huge fan of scoring/categorizing people.
Steve 39

Thanks Christie! This fits my feelings almost perfectly in regards to Evan’s comment in #24. It isn’t about the battle of the sexes, at least not for me, but the honest impression I got about Sophie from her email to Evan.
IMHO, they may not be pleasant to read, but many of the comments in this thread could be useful feedback for Sophie, even if the comments border on being negative. Makeovers attract new people to you, but personality and behavior makes them stay.
Sophie is still young and willing to work on herself, so she has a chance of changing and not ending up being a female version of the type person on that cable show about hooking up millionaire bachelors.
Sophie, I already wrote this, but no insult was intended from me. In addition to the other things I wrote you can start by just focusing on whether or not you enjoy the company of the person you are dating and worrying about his portfolio later.

Christie Hartman, PhD 26

Well Evan, I’m a woman, but you won’t find me defending this one. I’m always very leery of people, male or female, who describe themselves in terms of percentiles – it smacks of narcissism. And I’ve found that those who put their fists in the air and say “I refuse to settle!” are often looking for a fantasy, not love. This woman, despite her lengthy email, never mentioned love.
Steve 40

Ruby #28 wrote:
It’s ironic that someone who puts themselves in the “90th percentile in looks, intelligence and income” feels so insecure about herself that she has to re-think ”the way I speak and (make) an effort to not express any strong opinions”, and is so desperate to find a guy that she can no longer even wear a pair of “trousers.”

I think it takes confidence to be willing to reinvent yourself like that. Few people are willing to make the behavior changes it takes to get what they want. I think that is a good quality Sophie has.

As far as being a single mom, how is having to hire a nanny to take care of her kids less of a financial liability than having a “60% guy”? Not to mention the lack of support from a caring partner?

Excellent point. Not to mention the cost of the psychiatrist and other related issues that are likely to result from a child’s upbringing being outsourced.
I think Sophie’s concern might be more about losing money in a divorce, a partner emptying out a joint bank account or getting a slacker boyfriend who lays around her house all day. Then again, if her judgment is as good as
her confidence, she will not get involved with those men.

It’s been my experience that the people who have the least humility, those who are quick to trumpet how stellar they are, quite often have an over-inflated sense of their own worth and abilities.

I completely agree.

There is always someone “better” than you are. I’m sure there men who look at Sophie’s income, looks or personality as a joke writing her off as a second choice not befitting a person of *their* percentile

In her defense, she is young. She doesn’t know what she doesn’t know and she may develop more peronal insight as she ages.
Ruby 41

Shay #31

Nothing wrong with being feminine on dates, but not expressing “any strong opinions” and throwing out all your pants is a sign of deep-rooted insecurity by someone by someone who may think she knows how to get what she wants, but actually doesn’t. Smart, good men who want more than a trophy wife are not put off by women who have opinions. They don’t need a woman to be in a dress and heels all the time, either. Where is it written that being feminine means taking a back seat and being weaker? I think you can be feminine and both feel AND think.
sayanta 42

Shay-

But what if the men who want us are really sketchy? lol
Karl R 43

Shay said: (#28)
“[Sophie] just knows what she wants and how to get it.”

Does she?

Does Sophie know what she wants? She wants a husband who will be the father of her future children, but she only seems interested in the traits that man a man attractive to date. She wants a man she can look up to, but seems uninterested in whether he respects her or sees her as an equal partner.
Does Sophie know how to get what she wants? The changes she’s making to herself amount to an image makeover. That will get her foot in the door. (If she’s in the top 10% in looks, that should get her foot in the door without the makeover.) If that’s all it takes for her to get what she wants, how successful has she been?
Obviously, you can be on the right track for a while before you see results, but you should see some indication that your dating strategy is working. I got back into the dating scene 4 years ago. During the first three years, I dated four women whom I considered amazing. The relationships lasted from 6 weeks to 8 1/2 months. Each of these women thinks highly of me as a boyfriend, even after we stopped dating. About a year ago I started dating my current girlfriend, and that’s the relationship where everything has worked out.

Sophie said: (original post)
“I am not in a steady relationship yet, but the quality of my dating life has improved dramatically,”

She’s apparently adopted a strategy which is better than her previous one, but souds like it hasn’t passed the real test of whether it can get her what she wants. If she even understands what she wants.

Sophie definitely has her wish list of what she wants in a man. But I’m reminded of the saying: “Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.”
Lance 44

F***, this is a great letter and a great post. I was JUST reading about this topic in Way of the Superior Man.
My guess is Sophie was a masculine high performer in a male environments, with a masculine polarity prior to her switch. After the switch, she moved towards a more feminine polarity, at least on the surface, which is a good strategy. She’ll attract more dudes that way.
The rub here is that if she’s a competitive, top earning, ball busting chick, she will highly repel the alpha dog guys. Alpha dog guys look for the most feminine, most polarity opposite woman. No matter what their job or income. In fact, our dirty secret is we prefer women who aren’t top earners because those won’t have to exist in depolarizing environments.
So, not only does she have to adjust her appearance and her external behavior, she has to change her attitude and her mental/emotional game. She not only needs to act feminine, but she needs to *be* feminine and truly appreciate men for what they are and not what they make. Then she’ll really attract the top 10%.
Just from reading her letter, I suspect I would be physically attracted to her but find her emotional/mental core depolarizing.
For Sophie, I recommend being less analytical and more emotional and chick-like. Then she can have anything she wants.
No Crap 45

Prance around in heels, short skirts and makeup Every. Damn. Day. ? (Because men need eye candy, I guess. Oh, and podiatrists LOVE heels. My feet, on the other hand, do not. My feet trump the preferences of any man, sorry. If men love heels so much, they can wear them.)

Say “I feel” instead of “I think”? (To protect a man’s fragile masculine ego, dontcha know?)

And still SETTLE for whatever prize package deigns to go out with me? (Dress it up any way you want, but if it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.)

I THINK I am with the poster who would rather stay home and read a book because I FEEL this is complete crap.

If this is what I have to do to “have a man” I’ll spend the rest of my life alone, thanks.
Michelle 46

Hi All,

This was just a GREAT discussion. After dating for a few years I became very picky and began a list of traits. The list grew and grew until it was impossible to find this made up man. I deleted the list and started to have a much more open mind. I’m now engaged and so happy he doesn’t meet all of my original criteria.

Michelle ; )
C. 47

Shay, as someone who seconds the notion of the dramatic make-over, are you saying its better to act and dress ‘feminine’ rather be comfortable in your own skin? I’m not saying this is a bad thing, I’m just curious since this is a big issue for me. I gotta admit I cringed when I read the last part of the letter. I AM trying to be more girly but I fear that when I dress up I look like Kristen Stewart on the red carpet: all awkward and fidgety.
And besides, the super girly girls I associate with in real life, actually like sex the LEAST! Tomboys and “edgy” girls are the ones who love sex..think about it, they want to be around guys and act like guys BECAUSE THEY LOVE GUYS!! Ever see “some like it hot”? You know how giddy the male characters get when they are included in the group of girls? Thats how I feel when I’m “one of the guys”, like a kid in a candy store. Of course they lust over the busty, foxy girls and once they land one, then they come crying to me complaining that she never wants sex and just reads trashy magazines and has her nails done all the time. She rather do that then hang with her sexy boyfriend!! And for the guys who are looking for a mother for their children, who do you think would be better, a Victoria “posh spice” Beckham wannabe, or a woman who like to play in the mud and ride bikes and go fishing and camping…..
Ugg, ok, sorry for hijacking the thread. Rant over, carry on
hunter 48

I have heard women say, they could get married right now, if they drop most of their criteria.
Diana 49

Well, Evan [#24], my horoscope told me yesterday to refrain from allowing my emotions to get the better of me.

My thoughts are very similar to many of our other posters. To be honest, I didn’t know exactly how to say what I was thinking [or feeling] without sounding like I was jumping on Sophie’s case. I still don’t.

I’m curious. What is Sophie’s definition of a “quality guy?” If her definition is that he’s not as good looking, intelligent and successful as she is, therefore, his quality is inferior to her, she is being short-sighted, shallow, and condescending. His looks will fade, as will hers. His intelligence may be reflected in a manner that’s different from hers, yet just as powerful and useful. His high-earning salary can easily be stripped away by the pitfalls of every day life: a life altering accident or health crisis, a company that files for bankruptcy, downsizes or outsources, an investment that crashes his life savings.

Sophie basically asks herself, “Why would I want a guy who earns far less and isn’t so charismatic?” There’s a simple answer. Because of how he makes you feel. Being charismatic is a trait that men sometimes possess that lures a woman in, especially a woman with a fantasy living in her mind, but they often learn later on that he’s actually not so charismatic. And sometimes, the guy who doesn’t seem quite so charismatic in the beginning opens up to reveal just how charismatic he can be when he’s with the right woman. It sounds like Sophie is casting aside hordes of guys by making quick and unfair judgments about them rather than giving them the opportunity to make themselves known. IMHO, this is her biggest mistake.

She states that she connects best with a leader because she wants to relinquish control. Is she wanting to be dominated? Her references to the “master of the universe,” the “big and strong” law enforcement professional, and the older guy who could be her mentor feels like this to me … someone who can push and challenge her own sense of control and power. It kind of feels like a fantasy. But I digress.

Her thought that a man who earns less than her will be a financial liability is simply not true, and shows where her mixed up priorities are. This is assuming he’s not a deadbeat, makes a good living, and is financially responsible. Maybe she doesn’t want to feel as if she’s helping him to live a lifestyle he otherwise could not afford. Sounds rather selfish. If she’s concerned about protecting her assets should she divorce, she could consider preparing a pre-nup.

And she has a very misguided view of what it means to be a single mom, even more so when trying to date. This is assuming she doesn’t intend to have nannies raising her children. She also terribly underestimates the important and valuable role a good father makes in a child’s life. I honestly found her comment to be cavalier, naive, and ignorant.

As for her makeover, I can appreciate her desire to be more desiring toward the kind of man she’s hoping to attract, but can a zebra lose its spots? Can we truly become someone we are not? It’s fake beauty, and sooner or later, her true self, like her strong opinions will surface. If you are changing your appearance to feel better about yourself, that’s one thing. If you are changing your appearance solely to win a man, this will lead to feeling empty.

It doesn’t sound to me as if Sophie has compromised at all in terms of what she’s looking for in a guy or what she values most. She mentions nothing of love, honesty, integrity, respect, faithfulness, communication, morals, loyalty, etc.

One thing everyone needs to learn is that real love is not wounded-self, ego love. It’s not about the love you feel you deserve because of your wounds. It’s about loving yourself for all and everything that you are, and then sharing this love with others. This will lead you to those who will love you in return.
starthrower68 50

@No Crap #45,

She who keeps saying she’d rather opt out (me, namely) keeps opting back in. In spite of my best attempts, something funny happens and my heart keeps softening up. I end up swallowing my pride and getting back in, even when I think I don’t want to.

Interestingly enough, I got a flirt on Singlesnet from a guy saying that a highly educated woman was a plus. What? Howabout warmth, openness, and character? No, nothing about that. Since I could only flirt back rather than e-mail, I didn’t get to question him on it. But it does seem that women might have to re-examine what is really important in a mate. Meanwhile, I’m talking to guy who wants to have deep discussions about fishing. Not my cup of tea, but I don’t know that it’s a reason to dismiss him. I’m picking up on some other things in our conversations that indicate it might be worth getting to know him a bit more.

And I’m trying to learn something here; I’m trying to learn how to meet men without expectations of how it’s going to turn out. I’m trying to keep my goals in front of me. I’m not failing to live up to my potential. I’m trying to continue growing into it.
Goldie 51

<offtopic>

@ C #47 -

” And for the guys who are looking for a mother for their children, who do you think would be better, a Victoria “posh spice” Beckham wannabe, or a woman who like to play in the mud and ride bikes and go fishing and camping…..”

But, but, the Victoria “posh spice” wannabe will do much better at suburban PTA meetings!…

</offtopic>

Seriously though, I find that a lot of people confuse two things: one is trying to look or act like something you’re not in order to get accepted, the other one is personal growth and development. You don’t have to be stuck in the same image all your life — you can change — as long as you feel happy and natural doing it, and as long as people you like find the new you fun to be with, it is perfectly all right to change!
Steve 52

@Ruby #41
I love feminine women, heels, shirts, etc. I also love to talk. A woman without opinions will bore the hell out of me. It isn’t about having opinions, it is about how they are expressed, but that is sometimes a problem for both men and women.
Cat 53

#46,- Michelle, I love to see comments like yours! Congratulations.

And #45, no one said you have to dress a certain way all the time or you won’t get a man! And the “I feel” instead of “I think” might be appropriate for a top-earning professional woman like Sophie because she probably has trouble leaving her work at work, so to speak. Perhaps she’s a Vice President or a lawyer used to winning every debate. What she does at work obviously makes her successful: at work. She has to act a certain way to successfully compete and lead in a male dominated industry, no doubt. But acting like she’s at work isn’t the way to find a suitable mate/husband/father-material. So if she needs to wear some dresses and say “I feel” to break out of ball-buster mode and not be a Master of the Universe on a date, that’s a good move for her!

And #45, there’s nothing wrong with living alone reading your books… IF it makes you happy. If you’re looking for a boyfriend, you might want to start looking at men as companions rather than consolation prizes or adversaries…

#50, starthrower68, what a great last paragraph, especially this sentence: “And I’m trying to learn something here; I’m trying to learn how to meet men without expectations of how it’s going to turn out.” Sounds like you are really applying what you learn here!
Steve 54

@C #47
Clothes are just clothes.
I lost a ton of weight a few years ago. I got a new haircut and had a female friend pick a new wardrobe for me. I was Mr. Jeans and sweat pants before that.
I felt like an imposter at first, but I got used to the look and I did get extra attention from women.
Years later, I’m still the same person, I just dress better and get more of the attention I want.
Helen 55

All this “I feel” vs. “I think” crap… first, guys don’t necessarily prefer the former to the latter. There is no proof of it. Second, the more we women adhere to “I feel” linguistic silliness, the more guys will accuse us of being too emotional. Think about it; wouldn’t that be a logical conclusion on their part? We’re always feeling; we’re not thinking. And that makes our beliefs and our arguments lose weight.

Give me a break. Women think. Why be ashamed to admit it?
Steve 56

Sophie, I think post #44 by Lance is the most useful feedback for you.
Annie Gleason, Midlife dating coach 57

Wake up call to Sophie: When you become a single mom, you will not have the time or energy to have an active dating life for years. Not only that, many of the Alpha men you desire will pass you over in favor of a woman who isn’t burdened by the demands of children. And, when you do meet someone interesting, integrating a new man with your kids is one of the biggest challenges any relationship can face.
Steve 58

Seriously though, I find that a lot of people confuse two things: one is trying to look or act like something you’re not in order to get accepted, the other one is personal growth and development.

Exactly!
Bill 59

@ Lance – I have read that book Way of the Superior Man. That is true very alpha is attracted to very feminine. Look at Donald Trump which is probably the worst example. People with extreme personalities are generally attracted to opposite personalities.
Bill 60

@ Lance – I have read that book Way of the Superior Man. That is true very alpha is attracted to very feminine. Look at Donald Trump which is probably the worst example. People with extreme personalities are generally attracted to opposite personalities.
If you are a top alpha male you aren’t afraid of approaching that very feminine/beauty lady no matter where you are. These kind of men are always doing sales pitches and they are amazing at there job because if they are not they wouldn’t have those amazing salaries you crave.
The problem with men I know who are amazing with there sales pitches are very very picky with the kind of women they date because they can always find a new girl.
So if you want a man with those characteristics if he is not talking to you than you have to talk to him.
Amy 61

Hi Evan,
I just finished reading your blog – “What’s the Difference Between Settling and Compromising.” Bravo Evan for an amazing response to Sophie’s email. I am now giving you a standing ovation.
Here’s my story – This September would have been three years with Match.com and I could tell you stories that would take the waves right out of your hair. Suffice it to say my friends called me the ‘freak’ beacon. The men I met went from the sublime to the ridiculous. But I never gave up. I learned that there might be a dry spell from time to time but there was always another person to meet just around the corner. And then it happened, I met the love of my life.
Jeff and I were not the types we were both looking for physically but after getting to know each other, and giving each other a chance (which so many of us do not do) we couldn’t be more suited for each other.
Of course everyone is looking for their Angelina Jolie or Hugh Jackman but let’s be serious here – is that real? Heck no. I do not have Angelina’s figure nor is Jeff over 5’8 but we love each other mind, body, and soul.
Jeff makes me laugh which no one has ever done before. I am the one who always makes others laugh. And Jeff is good, kind, caring, considerate, and only wants to take care of me and make me happy…and vice versa.
We consider ourselves blessed that we were lucky to find each other. It’s now almost 4 months and Jeff makes me happier then I ever thought I could be.
Looking for what you think you want will cause you to block your blessings. Keep yourself open and meet everyone that comes your way. And don’t ever give up. You never know.
Diana 62

Oops [49] ~ zebras have stripes. What can I say? It’s Friday; brain’s tired.
Shay 63

Hey, when I support Sophie’s action to make changes, I’m not saying that she shld change and makeover and not be herself.

C’mon ppl. Really. After being on Evan’s blog for so long. One thing to learn is: Its not all or nothing.

I’m very very comfortable being myself. I warm up to people quickly. I’m funny. I’m witty. But I also have an acid tongue. I have a sense of dry humour. I can build insults into my jokes and many times people don’t catch them.

I’m on the heavy side physically. I’m rather masculine in my core than feminine. More man than some men. Able to organise and plan better by far compared to a lot of my guy friends.

However, like Sophie, I admire alpha males too. I don’t like guys who are wishy washy. No direction in life. Or don’t know how to go where they want to go. Passive and not passionate about their life. They make me frustrated.

I’m love myself too much to totally change myself. However, I reckon that guys like their girl to be in touch with their feminine side too. So, what’s wrong with it?

Frankly, I’m not a feminist. I don’t want to be one too. While I’m planning and organising away, I yearn for a partner who can share the load with me. I would like to be a follower sometimes too. If I’m forever leading, am I able to attract a fellow leader into my life? If I’m forever self sufficient, would I get to enjoy the joys of having someone to do nice things for me?

I believe people have multiple sides to them. I have my musculine side. I have my feminine side. During dating, its time to let my feminine side surface more. If not, I would be the one who initiates and chase every guy I think I like. Hahhaaa…which would really scare them away.

When I do my “makeover” at work, actually its not meant for dating. I put on makeup at work because I look 5 years younger than my actual age. Which doesn’t help me in my line of work at all. I want to look older, more polished and put together. I have to interact with many heads of departments whom I need to have their trust and respect.

I wear dresses at work to look softer. To be more feminine as well. But really more for my work. I interact a lot with lower level staff as well. My job requires me to criticise their work. If I were to look stern, strict and unyielding, they would be very defensive. Made worse if I always wear black suits. Instead, by dressing to look softer and also being careful not to talk with my acid tongue and come across as judgemental, I can build rapport with them easily. People are more cooperative and my job gets done faster.

I can do all these for my work, why can’t I do it to benefit my dating life?

As I read beauty blogs and learn to makeup, I realized I love doing that!!! I also realized that wearing dresses flatters me more than pants.
C. 64

@Lance: “I recommend being less analytical and more emotional and chick-like.”
Wait, I thought emotional chicks were a turn-off to guys?
@ Steve and Goldie, yeah, I know what you’re saying…and I am trying to umm, “develop” into a woman–heh, funny because I still shop in the junior bra department — but I think being bratty about it is part of the grieving process. I mean, so much of my identity has been based on my tomboyish nature. That said, and also pertaining to Lance’s post, I am certainly not a ball-buster or all that competitive in the work place, so maybe my “softness” lies in how I treat others, and I just need the outfits to match that.
Sophie on the other hand may “look” soft, but if she thinks she better than everyone else shes still gonna come across as a cold, hard b-word.
Steve 65

I’m curious.

What do the people who earn 200K or more do?

Doctors, lawyers, small business owners, government contractors in a sweet spot, dating coaches? If your career doesn’t fall into one of those I would be interested to hear what you do.

Steve
Shay 66

Helen (#37), its great that you get hit on a lot. Good for you. Frankly, that’s not happening to me. I get hit on by guys who look like they are my uncle’s age. Thanks, but no thanks.

I’m not desperate. I rather remain single than to settle. I see dating as a learning and growing process for myself.
Shay 67

Yes Ruby (#41), women of course can think and men appreciate that.

I have pretty strong opinions myself. However, I come to learn that before a guy knows me, its good not to express all my opinions at one shot. I understand that to some, it might come across as appearing to be rigid, stern, strict. A girl friend gave me that feedback.

Have you ever had a guy who bolted and leave you at the table at the end of the date? That happened to me. I was talking my head off during that date. Hahaha….and I guess that guy didn’t like it. I kinda like that guy. Its a pity, but oh well…
Shay 68

sayanta (#42),

of course I don’t mean to accept those sketchy ones. I’ve rejected 3 men within the span of a month. They have a certain trait and treat me in a certain way which I don’t like. Had to go out on a date with the first one before I know that’s a dealbreaker for me. So when I detected the same in the 2 other men, I know I’m not interested.

However, people have different qualities in them. I’m sure these gentlemen have good qualities too.
Shay 69

Karl R (#43),

if you are Sophie, given the traits in men that you want, what would you do? Can you please explain what is your plan to find the husband to your kids? Start to develop stay at home dads? Can’t alpha males be good husbands too?

Karl R, dating is a self discovery and learning process. It takes time to refine and fine tune. Its really great that she knows what she wants right now. And she has a plan to get it. If she gets it and realizes its not really working for her, you know what? She can change her mind! That’s why people like you are in a few relationships before finding the right one.

Some people might take longer, some shorter. She is feeling her way and getting along fine. I don’t think its fair to say she doesn’t know what she wants and don’t know how to get their either.
Shay 70

Goldie (#51)!!!! You’ve spoken what I wanna say!!!

People can change. People are multi-faceted.

Dating is a time in life which I wanna play up my feminine side and tune down my musculine side. Learning how to dress up is fun. When I was in my teenage and early 20s, I was too much of a nerd to explore that part of me. I’m glad to do it now.

I’m also learning to understand people better without judgement. It’s a feminine trait which benefits my relationship with people in general. Good to attract guys too!! But it’s something I want to develop in myself for me to be a better person. Not something I wanna fake.
Evan Marc Katz 71

Hey Shay – please don’t post 4 times in a row. If you want to respond to multiple people, just put it in one brief post. Thanks.
C. 72

Shay @63: Thanks for the further descriptions of yourself, I find it helpful! I don’t have any experience dressing feminine for work. I’m a designer for a men’s casual apparel line (yeah, got to translate my love of boys clothes into a job!) and part of my job is snapping photos of models in the clothing. I always squat while taking photos because it makes the models look taller, which would be quite difficult and inappropriate to do in heels and a skirt! Oh, and yeah it is a bit of a gender role reversal being a female photog with male models..I must be blushing the entire time. Once a model did ask me out, and we had drinks but I felt sooo weird about it, as he was prettier than me and barely 21
But anyway, I am starting to improve, like wearing a silk blouse with my jeans instead of a t-shirt, and wearing more make-up and putting product in my hair. Co-workers ARE starting to notice and compliment me..too bad all the male designers I work with are gay or married.
Shay 73

C. (#47), I really did not say that I support dramatic makeovers.

Please.

I saw the other blog post about you. I understand that you want to appear more attractive to the guys who can build a family with you. Me too.

Do you know you don’t need to change altogether at once? For starters, you can try non frilly, non flowery skirts. They can even look funky, alternative from main stream fashion. Or you can try denim skirts.

If you wear tank top and jeans, how about getting some from Forever 21? I went shopping yesterday and got myself jeans and a tank top there. I ditched my comfy baggy jeans and got this one which fit me nicely and accentuate my curves. The tank top has some puffy designs at the neckline. Not over the top girly, but its in a dusty pink. I chose this colour over a dull olive/navy one. It’s feminine but not overly so. I know I definately can’t do lacy stuff. Makes me look like a huge ball of fluff.

If you have a short tomboyish haircut, how about doing eye makeup? They will cause your eyes to capture attention! No need for drama mama makeup. Just some eyeliner, shimmery cream shadow close to your own skin tone and mascara. That’s natural and not over the top but already enough to define your eyes. Some sheer cream blush can give you radiance to accompany your smile!

I’m also not a girly girl. My ex-date, current dating team guy friend, encouraged me to check out fashion magazines.
Shay 74

Hi Evan, I’m sorry…the posts were so long, I got really lost. I had to reply them one at a time. Sorry about this!!
Karl R 75

Shay said: (#69)
“if you are Sophie, given the traits in men that you want, what would you do? Can you please explain what is your plan to find the husband to your kids?”

1. Figure out if those traits are actually what she wants. If she wants him to be a good husband and father, She should start with the traits which would imply that: kindness, patience, etc. (As far as I can tell, those traits don’t make Sophie’s short list.)

2. See if some of the men who are interested in her have those traits.

3. If none of the men who are interested in her have those traits, she might want to figure out what traits the good potential fathers/husbands want. (Probably the traits that make someone a good mother/wife … like kindness, patience, etc.)

Shay said: (#69)
“Can’t alpha males be good husbands too?”

Have you ever gone shoe shopping for a cute pair of shoes, and ended up with a pair that was very cute but really uncomfortable?

There are shoes which are cute and comfortable, but if you’re just looking for cute, you’re a lot less likely to accidentally end up with comfortable.

And if a man is an alpha male and a great husband, he probably won’t be on the dating market long. (Those are two traits which many women find desirable.) It’s the alpha males who don’t make good husbands who end up on the dating market again and again and again.

Shay said: (#69)
“Its really great that she knows what she wants right now. And she has a plan to get it. If she gets it and realizes its not really working for her, you know what? She can change her mind!”

That’s how a lot of young men and women end up having their first divorce.

Shay said: (#69)
“I don’t think its fair to say she doesn’t know what she wants and don’t know how to get their either.”

We may have very different definitions of what “knowing what she wants” means.

There’s a joke I’ve heard several boat owners agree with: “The two best days of owning a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.”

For the person who agrees with that statement, would you say they really wanted a boat? I would say they didn’t want a boat. They only thought they did. Once they owned the boat, they realized they really didn’t want all the expenses and hassles that come with owning a boat.

You claimed that Sophie “knows what she wants and how to get it.” I would say there’s no proof of that. The proof will come when she gets the kind of man she’s looking for and gets to know him well enough to be sure he’s the kind of man she wants.
Christie Hartman, PhD 76

@ Goldie: “Love, you mean that warm and fuzzy feeling that tends to wear out 2-3 years into the marriage?” Uh, no – I mean real love, the thing that keeps people together for decades. The thing that still strikes me about this post is that it lacks heart – it’s like she’s shopping for a luxury car.
Side note: Clearly, I need to pick up this Way of the Superior Man book. I’ve read lots of stuff written for men and I’m still looking for the really good one.
Jane 77

What if you do understand everything that EMK is saying about making compromises, but still can’t change? I’ve been reading this blog for ages, but so far, no luck. I HAVE been giving lots of time and attention to those “nice guys”. at the beginning, it was refreshing not to date without anxiety, but after years of being with these nice stable guys, I almost wish I hadn’t invested all that time.
I think that when people do fall in love eventually, it often doesn’t look like how they imagined- compromises are made. BUT these compromises just happen naturally as a consequence of meeting the right person. If you try it the other way around ( think you are compromising and then hoping to fall in love) it just doesn’t work. I’m just comparing myself to my friends who have fallen in love.
Goldie 78

Steve #65 – location, location, location. In my profession, the same amount that a senior specialist makes here in the Midwest, is a junior-level starting salary in major cities on the East or West Coast. But then, the cost of living is also wildly different.
Steve 79

@Goldie #78.
I had that thought. High salary is one thing, but does it mean that much if you live someplace like New York?
Christie Hartman, PhD 80

@Steve wrote: “you can start by just focusing on whether or not you enjoy the company of the person you are dating and worrying about his portfolio later.”
Sounds like good advice to me.
Helen 81

What exactly constitutes an alpha male? This term has been mentioned several times, and maybe we’re not all on the same page about it.

Is an alpha male someone who earns above a particular level relative to those around him? Someone who has a leadership position? Someone who behaves in a domineering way? Someone who is handsome? Someone who has the loudest voice and manages to monopolize conversations? Someone who attracts many females? This last is what “alpha male” means in zoology, but I can hardly believe that is how most women would like to think of it in the human world (even if it’s true).

I’m not comfortable with ranking men or any humans in general (alpha vs. beta vs. gamma, etc.), but in my workplace, there are 2 alpha males: loud voices, leadership roles, dominating conversations, giving unsolicited advice and criticism… and I just think it would be hell to be married to them. They are charming, to be sure; and maybe this is all that Sophie can see when she looks for alpha males. But marriage is about living together for decades, ideally. Can one stand to be around someone like that for so long? Can one even stand to be with them more than 1 hour a day? And if they’re the type that can attract many women, is that what a woman wants? When I’ve gone to these workplace parties and seen the wives of the top dogs, they more often than not appear harried, stressed, and unhappy. Better to live with someone who doesn’t stress you out.

Going for shallow things may be natural in the animal world, but in our human society in which we build institutions that are meant to last, one must be more practical and thoughtful. Looking for money and charisma, as Sophie is, is painfully naive. I’m with Karl R #75 in that chasing after such things is what often leads people to their first divorces.
Karl R 82

Jane asked: (#77)
“What if you do understand everything that EMK is saying about making compromises, but still can’t change?”

Then you’re kind of stuck where you were before you understood.

Jane said: (#77)
“I think that when people do fall in love eventually, it often doesn’t look like how they imagined- compromises are made. BUT these compromises just happen naturally as a consequence of meeting the right person. If you try it the other way around ( think you are compromising and then hoping to fall in love) it just doesn’t work.”

You can meet the right person, but if you don’t give them a chance, nothing happens.

I met my girlfriend 10 months before we started dating. We’d flirted a little. But, when I found out she was 16 years older than me, I decided that was a larger age gap than I wanted to deal with (even though I had dated several women who were older than me).

It wasn’t until I changed my mind about dating her that things actually started happening.
C. 83

I love all your posts Helen..I hope I can keep my identity and still find a hubbie like yours
shay @73: Hmm, well, maybe I’ve portrayed myself as more manish than I actually am! My hair is long and wavy and I always wear tight jeans and a little eye make-up. I think that there just isnt much I can do to look more womanly, because my face and body are so childlike (5’4″, flat-chested, androgynous face). Now that inception is out, I’m getting a lot of comparisons to Ellen Page, as I also did when Juno came out. I was looking at a red carpet pic of her with Marion Cotillard, and even though they are both wearing sexy dresses and make-up, there is just no denying that Marion is way more womanly looking, and Ellen still looks like a kid. Who’s the 30+ guy gonna hit on? *sigh*
C. 84

Oh and ps..don’t shop at forever 21! Their factory is down the street from ours and they have the worst sweatshop conditions and unfair pay! Yet they put a bible verse on all their bags. Hypocrisy anyone?
(sorry for the double post Evan )
Asian Internet Dating 85

@C #4 You have real good list of qualities you want in your man…Do you think it is possible to find all these in one single man???
Helen 86

Thanks, C. #83. Ellen Page is a CUTIE! Don’t worry about comparing her (and thereby, yourself) with someone else. Guys like so many different things as far as appearance. What they find universally appealing is a woman who is happy with herself and happy with others.
Anne 87

Well. I read this text (and EMK’s previous blogs about settling and compromising) with a great interest, and decided to add my own thoughts about the matter.
I have to admit, that I have bit of a contradictory feelings about this whole “settling”-issue. To put it straight, it sounds quite desperate to me. (And what i have read from this and other date advice blogs, being desperate is the one of the surest thing to make man run away)
I have seen some previously very picky women starting to settle and lower their expectations of men. And unfortunately many of them seem to go from totally picky to almost “any man is fine enough for me.” -type of thinking. Of course, I don’t know whether or not this is common, but perhaps there is a danger, that when woman start to think of settling, she will lower her expectations for man too much.
For me, there is clear distinction between settling and being realistic with your expectations. It is good thing to lower your expectations if they are too high but it is important to really thought about the matter and make clear to yourself what things are too important to compromise and what things does not matter so much.
(Oh, and I have to add that English is not my native language, so sorry about all grammatical and other types of mistakes in my comment. Hopefully you can make at least some sense about what I intended to say.)
Shay 88

Karl R, I think your points are right. However, there are a lot of things unsaid in Sophie’s letter. We don’t know ALL that she is thinking or have considered. She could be along your track, you know.

In addition, you talk about cultivating traits to attract the husband and father of her children she is looking for. However, guys don’t seem to operate that way. Visuals come first. Attraction comes first. If she doesn’t attract, guys don’t bother to spend the time to know how she is. There are many many guys who don’t really operate like you do, you know.

Btw, Sophie can change her mind before she gets married. I think if Sophie has thought through all that, getting married should be a big deal for her to think through as well.

Dating is a learning process. Being in a relationship is another one too. I think she will learn along the way.

Ppl, please stop talking like she’s heading straight for disaster.
Jane 89

To Karl @82,
I understand what you are saying, but my point is that I have given a lot of men a try, even though there was no real chemistry to begin with. I don’t have any problem with given a guy a chance who may not fit the ideal picture of whatever I have in mind as a partner. i’ve given short guys, poor guys, shy guys, etc.. a shot.
It hasn’t worked out for me and it’s been about 5 years of trying to make things work. None of these relationships were bad, but just not enough to make me want to commit to life.
So the question is, what do you do when you do give all kinds of guys a try and nothing is coming out of it? I’ve stuck it out for months and even years, but still, nadda. I don’t even have any desire to date any alpha males. The assumption would be that I still haven’t changed at the core,etc. etc.. but I think the possibility exists that while we can do everything in our power to keep and open mind, sometimes, that is still not enough. There is such thing as chemistry and if after a year it still doesn’t feel right, it’s only the right thing to do to move on.
If a woman is single and in her 30′s, blaming her for being too unrealistic and picky is not always fair. That’s the problem I have with EMK. It’s not always our fault. There is such thing as luck.
Single dad in Texas 90

Being a single mom is very hard and very expensive. The salary of a nanny is going to be much higher than the upkeep of a stay at home dad, not to mention much, much higher than the upkeep of a beta man who still makes a real salary. Plus a father is probably going to do a better job raising your kids than a nanny would.
isabelle_archer 91

The “acting feminine to get a man” thing can be a real mistake, in my opinion. I don’t do the feminine thing really much at all — never wear skirts or heels, and didn’t even wear any jewelry or any makeup at all until a few years ago. Believe it or not, I had a phobia of blowdrying my hair until last year. I am 34 years old! Most of my concessions towards femming it up in the past few years have been driven more by getting older and needing to look more professional, than by wanting to attract men. When I have felt like I needed to look more ladylike to please a man, it’s been a route to sure misery for me. The ONLY way for me to make such changes in something so personal and intimate as appearance is out of a sense of really wanting to do it for myself, and enjoying the outcome. Even now, I miss the days of really not giving a f*ck about what I looked like. I feel somehow like I’m less myself now than I used to be.

Even when I didn’t care at all what I wore, I never had problems attracting men, including so-called alpha males. In my experience, a truly masculine man — meaning, one who loves women and loves being strong and decisive and getting things done — knows that femininity is a whole lot more than what a woman wears.

Finally, I do sometimes run into men who have the great grace and tact to tell me I should dress up more so that I would be more attractive to them. It’s almost like a litmus test, so I’m glad when it happens so I can immediately hit the eject button. On one memorable occasion, I was discussing how I dress with a date in a bar. He pointed out a miserable, uncomfortable looking, chunky girl (whose date had just hit on me while I was getting a drink at the bar.) She was wearing too much makeup and an extremely unflattering (but fashionable-at-the-time) short, baggy dress. My date told me, “see, look at her, she’s not as pretty as you but she’s trying her best to work it. why don’t you?” No, thank you. I just wanted to give that girl a hug and tell her that we should go ditch our dates and have a beer together, wearing jeans.
Karl R 92

Jane said: (#89)
“It’s not always our fault. There is such thing as luck.”

You can’t control luck. Evan tells you which things you have control of that can improve your chances of finding someone.

Jane said: (#89)
“If a woman is single and in her 30′s, blaming her for being too unrealistic and picky is not always fair.”

Being unrealistic and picky (for both men and women) is a common flaw. Especially when people are dating online.

Jane asked: (#89)
“what do you do when you do give all kinds of guys a try and nothing is coming out of it?”

Figure out why. I doubt it’s just a five-year run of bad luck. I doubt it’s because there’s a lack of good single men out there.

And if you want to find the answers, you’ll need to start by asking the right questions. (I don’t know the right questions for your dating problems.)

Shay said: (#88)
“you talk about cultivating traits to attract the husband and father of her children she is looking for. However, guys don’t seem to operate that way. Visuals come first. Attraction comes first.”

Sophie claims to be in the top 10% for attractiveness. That’s enough to get her foot in the door with most men.

Men get a lot pickier than “attractive” when they are looking to marry.
SouthrnPhoenix 93

Yet another normal woman opinion, though I’m not sure I’m all that normal.

Sophie, I congratulate you on starting to look inside and around you to take control of your situation. It’s not an easy thing to change the way you dress and talk to better fit the dating environment you want to be a part of. I caution you not to push things too far – you are allowed to have and defend your own opinions, so don’t subjugate them to someone else’s opinion. But, it’s also not quite time to stop looking at your motivations and your dating pool. It’s great that you are open-minded about age and other traits, but you might want to spend more time thinking about exactly what personality traits you want. You may find yourself amazed to realize there are a ton of strong men out there (no comment on type of strength here) that you are overlooking because you are focusing on a type and not allowing yourself to see the signs of other types of strength.

Two parts of the letter concerned me most. One is the “better than” comment. Please look at why you feel that way or wrote that. It’s a bit disturbing and not only sounds elitist, but will likely attract into your life people with some seriously undesirable traits.

The other is regarding children. As a single mom, I cannot stress enough that you should not have children this way. Children need both parents, and the parents of children need each other. The advantages of having two involved, loving parents that support and help each other are invaluable. It creates a stable, loving environment for the children and provides a stable structure for both parents. Intentionally starting a family missing one of the key components will add a kind of stress that you can’t fully understand until you have to deal with it. It’s not fair to the kids, it’s not fair to you, and it’s just not good decision making if you have another option (like finding a good partner that will make a loving father before you have kids).
JuJu 94

Sorry if this has already been said – I’ve only read about a third of the comments so far and not sure I’ll have the time to read the rest. But a couple of things I wanted to mention in response to Sophie’s letter:

1) She seems to equate attraction strictly with being an alpha. On the one hand, to each – his/her own, but to me this is strange. I rate physical attractiveness based on, initially, physical attractiveness, and then additionally, as I get to know a person better, on things like personality and intellect (which can strengthen or ruin the attraction, of course). It appears, among other things, that she can be attracted strictly to a man’s wallet / power, and that’s not something I personally am able to comprehend.

2) This preoccupation with “alphaness” for the sake of alphaness is counterproductive, on many levels. What Sophie doesn’t realize is that an alpha male, regardless of how his alphaness manifests itself, is not likely to make a good long-term companion. These men are hardly ever faithful and are hardly ever interested in starting a family. They also, by the virtue of being alphas, will constantly stir these feelings in all the other women you encounter. While seeing some interest in your partner from the opposite sex may be flattering, feeling like you always have to compete for him will get taxing, fast. That’s not to mention that at some point you won’t even be able to compete.

This is its own topic, but did anyone here ever stop to analyze what the appeal of Twilight is, to women? Only let’s not forget that we don’t have the luxury of living in a fictional world.

3) I still don’t see on which points exactly she decided to compromise – did I miss something? Was she referring to the makeover? Maximizing one’s attractiveness is hardly a compromise, in my estimation. Does an individual who loses weight really compromise? Actually, that’s not even a good example, since an overweight person needs to be healthy first and foremost for themselves. But let’s say something like hairplugs for balding men – is that something they are compromising on for the sake of a fulfilling relationship?
Jane 95

To Karl @ 92
I don’t think there is anything that you have said that I haven’t heard before. I am just saying that I think it IS possible that even after trying everything in your power. But I’m not unhappy in my situation and I have been married before. Unfortunately the relationship ended in divorce, but I do know how it feels like to want to share your life with someone. I don’t regret my marriage, but I do regret investing so much time in men who, if I have really listened to my heart, were not right guys for me.
Stacy 96

This discussion seems to be lacking direction… It is interesting how many people made a point that “alphas” were not worth pursuing, for whatever reasons, while that wasn’t the point at all, since this is clearly the type the OP prefers, and to each his own.

I think the main message here is that first, that “alphas” come in different shapes and sized and you can’t be fixated on just one type (i.e. compromise); and secondly, that you need to appeal to the “target audience”. I personally find it hard to disagree with either of these points
JuJu 97

Stacy, the point was that she might want to reevaluate what it is that she actually needs, IF she wants to be happy in her love life. While she does exhibit considerable self-knowledge, I am not sure how much she knows about the propensities of the men she automatically prefers.
Shay 98

Agree with JuJu (#97). A number of characteristics of alpha males are likeable and preferable. Similar to Sophie, I do prefer to have a guy who can lead and is not passive in life. But I think its best to make a list of personality/character traits of the person whom one wants to spend a life with. Instead of having “a type”.

Firstly, it can help one to see if one wants a person with “conflicting” characteristics. Which would show if it unrealistic.

Secondly, dating options are widen when not restricted to “a type”.
IceQueen 99

It is dissappointing to see so many negative comments, they seem to be unearned. In fact, the author appears to have done everything ‘by the book’, according to the dating rules. She has acted appropriately by starting with improving herself – we as women are constantly told that the looks are the number one priority for men, so we focus on looks. Men want femininity, so she femmed herself up – that should certainly work. Instead of complaining that there are ‘no good men out there’ Sophie has invested in herself and worked on her appearence and demeanor. She should have been given credit for that. She has even gone as far as to censor her own speech for the sake of appearing more feminine. This should also work to her benefit because men often say they don’t like opinionated women. I personally would never do something like this, but maybe she is more „malleable” as a woman so she can actually bring herself to it.
I think what she is looking for is not necessarily a rich guy who can give her luxury. She is looking for traditional masculinity (which is a deficit in today’s West, unlike machismo which is still there). She is actually ready to settle to a very large extent as long as she gets this masculinity. Notice, she even mentions a guy in uniform, a law enforcement guy, who probably wouldn’t make a lot of money but would exhude masculine energy, be in charge of things, take care of the family and she would feel safe and protected around him. She doesn’t want to be the head of the household or the dominant partner in the relationship. This is why she wants the traditional male and she tries to turn herself into somebody that a „traditional male” would typically desire – a feminine, passive, „little” lady. She is even willing to settle for a man 20 (!!) years her senior just to get this masculinity – this means that she is opening the door for a large pool of men who will take her with open arms. She is the traditional woman in her heart, and wants a traditional man, but those are scarce these days as most people are modern in their mating habits and lifestyles. I think this is why she gets so much unbased criticism.
The part about the 90th percentile is indeed confusing. Whether that means that she considers herself among the highest 10% of all folks in terms of looks, income and outlook on world, is unclear. That’s not likely though as that would make her an incredibly rare person. Again, her main problem is that she is the traditional type of woman and won’t date down or choose a different „femininity/masculinity” dynamic. It can be a handicap in today’s world. Other affluent and self-made women would pick another dynamic, another type of man. They would look for a more equal partnership with a cooperative man who wouldn’t necessarily take charge or provide for them, but would help in other ways in a complementary relationship.
There is nothing wrong in wanting to have a child while you’re still relatively young. It seems that more and more younger women will chose this option. Women will simply have no other choice if they want to have their own children as men are postponing commitment or giving up on marriage altogether. People in the younger generation don’t have any illusions about marriage anymore. We as women cannot wait forever until the men decide to commit and become good fathers. We don’t have as much time and we don’t want to miss out on our reproductive years. It’s better to at least have a child, no matter how it would affect your dating because the men will come and go but the child will always stay with you. There is no guarantee that you will find love even later in life and if you wait until your late 30s, you end up having neither a child nor lover. It’s better to plan such things than to leave it to the destiny and hope for the best. One might settle in that case for a guy who is „just good enough” but that would mean unhappiness and also wouldn’t be fair to the other person whom you wouldn’t be truly in love with.
IceQueen 100

Women like Twilight because of the sheer romanticism of it. It is about pure, metaphysical love – something that women dream about and want to experience since they are girls. It is a female fantasy – having a guy swear undying love for you and wanting to marry you. It’s a fantasy about a guy who is willing to commit and to give. This is in stark contrast to reality where many guys just want sex and instant gratification (and then run away). It is like porn – the women in porn are gorgeous and ready to do anything for you (even though it is not realistic), here it’s the men who are gorgeous and masculine and willing to do everything for the woman (and even two men at the same time!). Jacob is like the ultimate fantasy boyfriend.
Stacy 101

@JuJu #97

This is a fair point, but I didn’t see anyone here actually say that they know about “the propensities of the men she prefers” first hand, just more of popular stereotypes. Also, as someone who’s got that said first hand experience, both through work and in my dating life, I can tell that there’s plenty of playboys AND there’s plenty of decent family guys among highly successful men, so it would be incorrect to generalize their “propensities”.
JuJu 102

The appeal of Twilight is what is generally the appeal of the romance genre in the first place: a tall, muscular, handsome, POWERFUL, romantic man, desperately in love with YOU, wildly attracted to YOU, completely devoted to YOU, etc., etc. – that’s what every woman fantasizes about, but few women ever get. Things like fear of commitment sounds just laughable in the Twilight context. In fact, any type of of the “typical” jerky male behavior you can think of simply does not exist in the Twilight universe.

And the descriptions of the men are rooted in fantasy, rather than reality, in more ways than just their physical beauty and strength. Look how amazingly perceptive Jake is for a 16-year-old boy. Grown men are incapable of that (and I mean men who actually care about you and want to be with you).

Oh, and something like the concept of the “Rules”? Even Evan instructs women to just do nothing and “embrace your feminine energy”. Yet Bella can be as needy and insecure as she wants, and it won’t change a thing in how those [all-around gorgeous] men feel about her.

That’s not to mention that Evan also constantly says “you can’t have it both ways”. A Marlboro man will not be the sensitive type, and the sensitive type will not be “masculine” (and so on, and so forth).

Talk about fantasy! But it seems to me that’s precisely what the women limiting themselves exclusively to alpha males are hoping/ holding out for. Sophie is in her late 20′s – which is not actually that young, if you want your own children. She can waste her entire life searching for that impossible ideal.
JuJu 103

Btw, IceQueen, what exactly is the top 10% as it concerns “outlook on the world”?

Stacy, I did date at least one true alpha, so my knowledge of this is not purely academic (but I did also read some scientific works on this – it’s a fascinating subject). The way women threw themselves at him was… well, amusing, actually. I am an alpha myself, I held my own, I made him expend most of the effort (not “make” as in “force”, but simply by not making much effort myself) – which, I suppose, was part of the appeal, for him. But it was so obvious from the very beginning that it would never work! It can be a thrilling experience for a while, but choosing a life partner like that is in many ways a self-imposed prison.
C. 104

Well, I hate to generalize, but I don’t see how big and tough law enforcers equals “head of the household”. My aunt has been married to one and she was miserable the whole time, due to his reluctance to do anything around the house or with the kids. I’m not saying there aren’t good ones out there, but thinking a guy is gonna make a make a great husband simply because he’s a cop, well, I find that a bit naive.
And, EEEEEwww! I do not get the Twilight thing. Do those guys ever SMILE? Serious guys, no matter how virtuous they are, are just not alluring to me at all. The ultimate fantasy boyfriend to me looks more like Ed Helms.
One more thing, there are a few people here that defend the op for wanting an alpha and not “settling”, but yet none of these posters are actually happily married to an alpha–they’re just dating them(or trying to). I’m more curious to hear from women who have been in a successful relationship with an alpha for 10+ years tell us that Sophie has the right mindset.
JuJu 105

C., the characters are much more emotional in the books.
It’s in the movies that they are these deeply morose individuals (I don’t know if that’s the acting or the script), and you can’t help but wonder how they even came out of it long enough to notice each other in the first place.
Helen 106

C #104: I’ve been married to an alpha for 10 years. To me, he’s an alpha because he’s kind, caring, and patient; and shares equally in household and childrearing duties, doing more than his fair share in the latter. To the outside world (but unimportant to me), he might be considered alpha because he outearns me.

Thus, to address your request since I match your profile – I don’t think Sophie has the right mindset. I’d be the last to say that there is just one right way to get a quality guy. But Sophie seems to be focusing on changing shallow things rather than her deeper attitude toward men. My guess – though I’m not a dating coach like Evan – is that she would have better success if she did the following two things: 1) reverted back to the behaviors and preferences she feels most comfortable with, rather than deliberately trying to change herself to be more appealing; and 2) learned to appreciate all men for who they are and what they contribute.

Take it from an intellectual show-off who ranks at best a 6 in looks and a 4 in femininity: men love appreciative women. You never have to hide your brains or say “I feel” instead of “I think.” (In fact, I think men kind of love women who flaunt their brains joyously.) You just have to appreciate them and let them know it.
IceQueen 107

Twilight characters are not even that “morose”. Jacob is really warm and passionate.

Juju, I just added “worldly” as one of the qualities since this is what many intelligent, well-off people seem to enjoy in their friends or partners. This would generally mean well travelled, well read, acquainted with different cultures and languages. I don’t personally think this should be a criteria for selecting a partner, I’ve just noticed that some people find this important.

But again, I’m confused about this whole 90th percentile thing. It just sounds too subjective.

And I don’t think we’re going to be able to grasp the definition of an “alpha male”. My idea of what alpha is might be entirely different from Sophie’s. Women’s tastes are different. Just because a man has a lot of drive will not make him attractive in my eyes.
IceQueen 108

Helen – kind, caring, patient, shares in household duties are typical “beta” qualities. Great qualities, btw. I would prefer a man with those qualities over a high earner.
A-L 109

I think that some posters are making Sophie’s makeover far more extreme than it really is. So now she wears skirts and dresses rather than pants. She’s changing her look, not her character.

And the “I feel” comments. This is actually what a lot of counselors recommend, to both sexes. Instead of saying “I think you’re a jackanape,” you can say “I feel hurt when you ____.” The first is accusatory, and unlikely to get a positive response. The second is more of a fact that can be discussed and is more likely to engender a change in behavior. So again, this is not really a big deal.

I’m with the majority who feel that her dream of popping out a kid and then continuing an active dating life are farfetched.

And the alphas. There’s a reason they’re called that. (Most) everyone wants them. They’re passionate, ambitious, charismatic, and high earners who are usually pretty financially generous with others (since they’re the alpha they’re supposed to take care of their “pack”). This can be a very attractive/intoxicating combination. But they’re the ones in control of the household, they’re the ones who make the decisions (where to eat, vacation, buy a house…), they’re the ones who feel that helping out around the house (cooking, cleaning, kids) is not something they need to do (either because they’re bringing home the bacon or because they’re the “man” and it’s “women’s” work). So long as Sophie is willing to accept this, then more power to her. But she also needs to remember that though many alphas are high earners, not all are (i.e. her law enforcement example). And how will she feel if she brings home 4 or 5 times the amount as he does, and then he expects her to do all the chores because she’s the woman?
Stacy 110

Helen #106

I think men kind of love women who flaunt their brains joyously

again, more generalizations. The only time in my life when I was dumped by a guy (who by all accounts was a true alpha – tall dark and handsome trader) – he told me I was too opinionated and argumentative. It may be that I just can’t voice my opinions in a manner that is not off putting, of course, but I find that the dynamic is always better when I just shut up and smile, literally. In my experience, men don’t really like being challenged by their women in that way. But that’s just my experience, your milage may vary.
Stacy 111

IceQueen #108

ditto to that…
Selena 112

@ Helen #106

I can’t imagine conducting conversations with mostly “I feel…” messages. Just sounds incredibly tedious to me. But then I’ve always been drawn to men I can converse with for hours about anything and everything – and they to me. Inevitably became bored with the strong, silent types. Why would anyone want someone with whom they had to consistently monitor their communication style? That’s gotta feel like work after awhile. And what happens when you slip up and offer an opinion NOT couched as a “feeling message”?
Helen 113

Stacy, are you Sophie by any chance? I’d noticed some striking similarities already. By the way, being opinionated and argumentative doesn’t equate with flaunting one’s brains. Neither are they opposites. They’re just completely different characteristics. You can be brilliant without being argumentative.

IceQueen #108: are these beta qualities? They come with a fellow who earns 50% more than me – and according to Karl R’s earlier statistics, if they’re to be believed, I’m already in the 95th %ile of earnings. You’d be surprised how willing guys – even alpha males – are to do as you request if you ask nicely and thank them.

I think the key to all of this is not to start with the idea that the opposite sex is the enemy, to be contended with; but the ally to work with in the best possible way.
Joe 114

There’s a difference between having your own opinions, and having opinions that you feel everyone else should have as well.
Selena 115

To Stacy #110

But how do you feel when you just shut up and smile, literally?
Stacy 116

Selena @115:

It feels jut right, seriously. At some point I asked myself – what was more important to me – to voice my opinion every time it differed and argue, or be in a peaceful relationship with a guy I like? I thought having a guy was more important. While it is clearly important to be on the same page about serious stuff (but arguing it isn’t gonna change anything, you either agree or you look for a different partner), most everyday stuff just isn’t that important at all. It is just easier to have a guy have it his way. If you argue it you win the battle but ultimately lose the war.
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 117

Evan – this is so well done, I’m nearly speechless. It must be rough to be at the top of the female dating chain. No doubt you set her straight – but if not, she might revisit these ideas in her late 30′s when her bio clock is ticking super loudly. Looking back, I know it’s easy to believe your own youthful philosophy, even if it’s completely inaccurate. What a great job explaiining equality in a new light.
JuJu 118

Money (or earning potential) as such has little to do with being an alpha. Bill Gates is very far from being one.
Selena 119

Stacy,

I hear ya on the either agree, or look for a different partner rather than argue. It’s just the “Stepford wife-esq” smiling and never sharing a different opinion *I* would find mind-numbing in fairly short order. But, you know, I can’t say that was ever a problem in getting a man for me either.
Goldie 120

#116, this approach looks like a perfect recipe for disaster to me. Here’s my two cents.

The opposite of arguing is not “shutting up and letting the guy have his way” – that’s just inviting him to walk all over you. The opposite of arguing, as I found out over the years, is clearly presenting your arguments in a way that would help him realize that you will both benefit from what you’re suggesting, and then both of you sitting down together and finding the middle ground.

It is not about who wins the battle – sheesh. It’s about both of you having a good time together. Or, if there are children involved, then it’s about all of you having a good time together as a family. If one of you always acts like a steamroller and the other like a pushover, then guess what? Both of you are NOT having a good time. That’s right, he probably doesn’t enjoy it either, when every day, on every issue, he gets this message “yeah, yeah, whatever, have it your way”. And you cannot up and look for a different partner each time you disagree on something that’s essential to your life together. You’re going to disagree, like it or not. It’s how you both handle your disagreements that matters.

That said, if one or both sides are uncapable of producing a convincing argument, or picking their battles wisely, or having an adult conversation without any of that aggressive or passive-aggressive stuff, then yeah, this couple isn’t probably a good fit for one another and it’s best to go your separate ways.
Helen 121

Amen, Goldie! You sound like a wise woman who’s lived it.
Helen 122

Selena #112: did you misread me, or did I misread you? I never said you should say “I feel.” I said just the opposite: that you shouldn’t force yourself to talk that way, if it doesn’t come naturally to you. So when you ask what happens if you slip up and don’t couch something as a “feeling message,” well, I’m not the one to answer that. I agree with you – rarely couch things as feeling messages.

You and others have asked what to talk about then, either if the guy is “strong and silent” or if you seem to think conversations should all be about arguments. Golly, you could talk about just about anything. Pick a topic. Shirley Sherrod. Climate change. Sports. Affirmative action. Your jobs. Ancient history. New technologies. Traveling. Astrophysics. Art or music. The things you love to do. The sky’s the limit.

Side note to Selena: The funny thing about strong and silent types: you may think the conversation is going nowhere, then you find out afterwards that he really enjoyed it and thought it was a great conversation. But if YOU’RE bored, then yes, there’s no reason to stay.
A-L 123

RE: Goldie‘s #120

Very well said.
Jonesey 124

A few thoughts:

1) Why do alpha males always get characterized as emotional nitwits? I work in a place where the price of entry is a Harvard degree (some exceptions–I don’t have one\). Some of the guys are jerks, true enough. But I’d say that most are real sweethearts. True, they do not suffer fools gladly. And if you are a goofy thinker they won’t date you, and they won’t marry you. Perhaps the poster is very smart and well-educated and wants to hang out with same. Revenge of the nerds in reverse. If she’s all she says she is, she won’t have a problem. These guys are not idiots.

2) The word “settle” is just an awful word, whatever it means to whoever decided this is a good word to use regarding long-term relationships and however brilliant Lori Gottlieb is supposed to be. Argue all you want about the meaning. The word is a TURN-OFF to the public at large. Please get it. “Compromise” gets second-place runner-up.

3) I’m still watching Buffy on Netflix. Can’t move on to the new generation of vampires yet. What is the world coming to, though, when our overriding cultural obsession is with people sucking blood.
Selena 125

Helen,
I think (and feel) ”I feel…” messages can be useful for diffusing disagreements before they become arguments. But as a conversational style? Uh, no. I need a man I can share opinions with – that’s chemistry to me. So I agree with you (I think?), my other comments were in response to Stacy and her “shut up and smile” style. Very Stepford wife – blah. But if she/Sophie had problems with expressing their opinions to men in the past…? Well, maybe it’s all in the delivery. Shrug.

The strong and silent types I’ve dated were quite handsome, but that wasn’t enough to carry a relationship. I would start to feel like an interviewer and become a little frustrated. Maybe I should have told them “I feel frustrated because I’m carrying on this conversation mostly by myself”? lol. Or I could have just shut up and smiled and spent the dates in near silence.
C. 126

Exactly Selena! I’m not sure how having a great brain and using it equals being argumentative. I hear people that are dumb as rocks arguing all the time!
I THINK and I FEEL that smart men like being with smart women, because you can have conversations! When I’m on a great wavelength with a guy we can talk for ages, usually sharing the SAME opinions, and if we don’t have the same opinion there are ways to share those without fighting. sheesh.
re:the alpha debate. I think a guy can be an alpha at work and a beta at home, such as Helen’s husband, or like Jonesy describes the rich nerd with a heart of gold…basically they have great qualities in addition to or in spite of being alphas. That said, the whole message we are getting from Sophie and Stacy is that they are looking for the kinda of alpha that is either macho and muscular and “in charge” of their woman, or the kind that make a lot of money and won’t let their wives to work outside the home or have opinions…which seems like strange criteria to the rest of us, since that doesn’t sound all that great.
Helen 127

Ha! All this talk about vampires (how did this enter the discussion, gals?) made me realize that the Twilight series perfectly fits the title Evan gave to this post. If Bella had gone for Jacob, she would have been settling (keeping her human nature, but choosing #2 on her love list); whereas by choosing Edward, she had to compromise (well, I won’t reveal the ending of the series).

Not sure there’s a lesson to be learned by that. Carry on.
Stacy 128

I am actually surprised nobody remembered “The Ugly Truth” chick flick. The OP seems right out of that movie
Shay 129

Somehow I feel this discussion is not going anywhere if people are going by absolutes. Absolutely alpha or absolutely beta. Absolutely feeling or absolutely thinking. Absolutely argumentative or absolutely pushover.

There are varying degrees of certain traits in a person. Sometimes people show their traits according to situations. There are tons of women who are smart and can think nowadays. Even lots with leadership qualities who are kind, caring, understanding at the same time.

Desirable men are desired by many. They do have a lot of choices. If a desirable man can have a smart women who is attractive, understanding, feminine, caring all in one package, he would choose her over those who has less of those traits in a package.

Nobody is perfect but everybody wants a catch.
Steve 130

@Stacy #128.
Sounds interesting. I netflixed it.
Goldie 131

Thank you, Helen and A_L. Yep, over 18 years of marriage, I pretty much mastered the art of negotiation. We started with screaming contests like everybody else, but things actually got pretty peaceful towards the end. Unfortunately by then, I was so tired of the whole thing that I decided to leave. Oh well, better luck next time
Goldie 132

ITA with C #126 – I, too, have met men that were, so to say, “alphas at work and betas at home”, my Dad being one of them. I have also met ones that were omegas at work, but tried to rule with an iron fist inside their own families… not a good thing!

You cannot say much about a man’s character just based on his job title and salary. Even in leadership, there are different styles. Some people are more caring and attentive to their subordinates, others more authoritarian, even though they’re all leaders and all do a good job of it.
Meet Me in Outer Space 133

Top 10% as far as appearance is concerned… and whatever the other rating she gave herself regarding income in her late 20′s? Really?…. late 20′s? What profession might that be? Also, considering her recent “make over” of high heels and *eckhem* dresses, what exactly does she carry to keep guys from chasing after her in public? Late 20′s, top 10% in looks, ANNND a business woman AAAAAAANNNNNNDDDDDDD finding it hard to find a man, by her own definition. Kind of sounds to me like… BS. I think the only top 10% she’s in are the people that overrate themselves. Everyone has a flaw, whether it’s personality or appearance. You really have to let go of the love you have for yourself before you give it to anyone else Sophie. Best to do it before you get SUPER OLD and hit 30. *gasp* Why didn’t you just say in the beginning, you’re not dating anyone because you don’t think anyone is good enough for you, and save us some time? THEN she wants to give that crappy advice to older women that read this blog? ouch. Lady, why don’t you let another 20-30 years pass before you think you have the power of wisdom to dole out so freely? And please observe in that time you learn from your mistakes, so when you come back you have some useful “advice,” instead of a “multifaceted plan” that has YET to work.
C. 134

@132, yeah Goldie, my dad has always been in leadership roles at work, and a pretty high earner, but his kind and caring and somewhat passive nature (yes, some leaders are like this) always made him seem more like a beta to me. Plus he did all the cooking at home, so he is definitely not a product of traditional gender role beliefs.
Just thought I’d share a funny joke I heard, since twilight entered the convo: How are the Twilight books/movies like soccer games? They go on for hours and nobody scores, but millions of fans will tell you that you just don’t understand! (but for the record I love soccer )
Diana 135

To many of these messages here, we all wear many different hats.

I have watched, “The Ugly Truth” and yes, come to think of it, Stacy [128], there are some similarities. I interpreted your earlier message from 116 to mean that rather than constantly comment on [some might say criticize] every minor thing that comes up in a normal day, thereby, making a mountain out of a molehill, you decided to let the truly lesser important things slide, rather than nit picking, etc. about everything.
Bill 136

I enjoy reading these comments since they entertain me when I am bored at work. The truth instead of rating people why don’t you talk to everyone that talks to you and judge them later. Some of the best people that could be amazing for you are the most unexpected.
Steve 137

@MMIOS #133
I had the same question in my mind. “How can someone in their 20s be in the top percentage of earners?”. At that age doctors and lawyers are just getting started. She could be an incredible sales person, but that doesn’t seem likely. Perhaps a programmer who stumbled into something good like a Mark Zuckerberg.
Tina 138

Wow, my head is spinning.
First of all, it’s (culturally) amazing to hear people speak of 60K a year as not being that much. Try living on an Italian salary which is… oh, about 15-20K a year….even for doctors. Anyway, if a person is able to support themselves independently then a liability does not exist. If two people come together, they share a lot of expenses. I still don’t see any liability. As long lines of communication are open and people are reasonable in what they expect to spend their money on and how much to put aside to save, etc…, who cares if a man makes more or less? For me it’s the person’s attitude towards money that matters more than the actual income. I also, as I’ve said, live where the typical salary is very low so maybe I just look at things this way out of necessity.
My favorite Evan advice so far has been along the lines of wanting the one who wants you. After flitting from good guy who ‘delivers” to bad guy with lots of chemistry and getting very hurt, I’m back in the game.
I’ve been going on lots of dates lately (hooray!) and have decided to just watch and see how each fellow behaves towards me and to positively react and receive accordingly. And now I find myself falling for a super guy who I may not have considered before. The man makes me feel like a queen, and because in the beginning I decided to look beyond all the superficial stuff and go out with him and see what he’s all about, I found out that he and I have so many things in common! For me he’s in the gazillionth (is that a word?) percentile. We really like getting to know each other. I am excited to watch this go somewhere.
JuJu 139

The woman in The Ugly Truth wasn’t looking for an alpha, she was looking for a prince on a white horse, so to speak. Her ideal wasn’t necessarily masculine or aggressive (or in any way a “master of the universe”), so no, I wouldn’t say that Sophie sounds exactly like her. She was looking for a sensitive poetic type. The man she eventually ended up with, though, was an alpha.

Helen, #127, while I don’t want to start a Twilight debate here (I only mentioned Twilight initially because of how it portrays men – the author is a woman, so no wonder there), but it’s as if you didn’t understand what happened there at all. (C., #134, this is nothing to do with your joke. )

Jonesey, #124, LOL , I remember when Avatar first came out there was an article in the news how some fans got depressed over the fact that they would never be able to visit the planet Pandora, and all I could think then was, what kind of idiot people could even come up with something like that? Well, and what do you know – as I was reading the Twilight books recently, I found myself getting progressively more and more depressed over the fact that I cannot become a vampire! I have to say, the books really don’t make a good case for staying human.

Gosh, if somebody told me six months ago that one day I’ll find myself saying this…
Meet Me in Outer Space 140

@ Steve #137… yea it is a bit odd. Looking back I shouldn’t have been so mean, but I find her letter annoying. I mean, what makes her so perfect? A man that dates her is going to have to compromise as she will and everyone else in a relationship, because no two people are the same.
JuJu 141

Tina, it depends on where one lives. Here in NYC, for instance, 100k a year is a pretty basic salary. While earning that much would, in theory, make someone a “top earner”, by no stretch of imagination does it imply that they are actually affluent.
Steve 142

@Tina #139
Italian salaries may be lower, but isn’t the Italian cost of living also lower? In the U.S., most of the time higher salaries mean higher cost of living.
Tina 143

Yay someone read my comment!
Costs of living vary depending on where you are in Italy (for example Rome is so crazy expensive that you are guaranteed to run out of money by the second week of the month) while where I live, Lecce, is very reasonably priced in most aspects.
My comment was more to express that since most salaries in this country are basically the same (a doctor will earn really not much more than a bus driver or book store clerk), people here just don’t really consider salary so much in the criteria for dating a guy. Not that the wealthy do not exist – they do, and there are certainly the women who will com running in that direction. But for the most part, at least from my observation, Italian women get most excited just knowing that a man lives on his own and not with his mother.
I enjoy sharing cultural comparisons – in fact it has been very interesting to apply things I read on this site to the dating culture in the country where I live. I either need to write a blog post about it or send Evan a nice e-mail with my observations.
Bill 144

@ Tina – I should move to Italy. I bet the people are way happier than americans.
Stacy 145

Tina, the fact that the standard of living is a lot lower in Italy (and in many ther parts of Europe) than compared to that in the US is hardly a secret… I fail to see how this is a positive thing though. If we consider it a positive, than North Korea is the paradise on earth :)
Cat 146

I have an Italian-born friend who lives in the US and earns a living by taking tours to Italy. She’s gorgeous, totally feminine, in her 30′s and too Americanized to put up with the Italian mamas that come part-and-parcel with Italian men.

When you look at other countries, you have to examine more than just the standard of living. It’s culture, it’s family, it’s all the extras!

Despite that, yes, I’m totally jealous of @Tina. Fabulous! Please send your observations.
Tina 147

@Stacy – actually, having lived in the US, Argentina, Switzerland and Italy, I can say that in Italy I’m enjoying the highest standard of living I have ever experienced. I have never enjoyed food so fresh and flavorful and clean (and affordable), I have two seas to choose from (the Adriatic and the Ionian) so I go to the beach almost every day, I live in an olive oil and wine producing region, I’m healthier than I’ve ever been, everything around me is built of sturdy, reliable material that has lasted through centuries, and have you seen the guys here? Beauuuutiful. So I’m not sure how you can say my standard of living is low. It may be cheaper here but this isn’t North Korea. But I hate to veer off topic (sorry Evan!) so please do stop by my blog (click on my name), read if you’d like, and comment – I am always happy to discuss these things!
Tina 148

Please forgive my double comment. Only time it shall happen.
@Stacy – oops! Forgive me, I decided to go look up “standard of living” and I see what you mean. I confused it with the term quality of life (though for some reason I always thought standard of living was also measured by quality of life in terms of accessibility of goods and services, etc… which would make Italy’s high). In any event, ciao! Sorry Evan for the two comments!
Helen 149

Stacy, by the various socioeconomic indices that measure standard of living, Italy and the United States are very similar. So it is not “a lot lower” in Italy. It would help to do resesarch before issuing judgmental statements that put an entire nation down.

Meet Me In Outer Space and Steve, it’s entirely feasible – indeed, likely – to be in the 90th percentile of earnings in one’s late 20s if one has a PhD, JD, or MBA. That said, I couldn’t agree with you more, MMIOS, about the presumptuousness of Sophie attempting to advise other women about how they should change themselves; when she herself is obviously ignorant about many things.

Tina, would love to join you in paradise!
Stacy 150

Helen, I wouldn’t rely on socioeconomic indices too much. In fact. I wouldn’t rely on them at all. The way they’re calculated… there’s lies, damn lies and .. well, socioeconomic indices

As someone who dated an italian, have been to italy many times and was able to observe the lifestyle of my b/f’s extended family members, I know for a fact that their standard of living is a lot, a lot lower than that of people living in the US, even outside of large metro areas of NY and LA. It’s just like Tina said - people can not afford having their own apartments (and a house? – forgettaboutit), cars, decent appliances and other things that are quite common in the US. To each his own, but to me being able to afford my own place (or two) definitely trumps low gini index and fresh tomatoes and mozzarella
Goldie 151

Stacy #150,

As someone who just clicked over and read Tina’s blog I’m sure she is quite aware of the benefits and attractions of living in America (homeownership! cars!! strip malls!!!), yet she chose to move (http://www.affordablecallingcards.net/2009/why-we-move) and seems to survive very nicely without all these things.

Personally, I think the role of material goods in our lives is highly overrated. Homeownership is highly overrated. We wouldn’t be needing cars on a daily basis if we had well-developed public transportation. A car in and of itself is a nuisance and a money drain, not to mention the leading cause of death. What I’m trying to say here is, we surround ourselves with a lot of material things we don’t really need, and then convince ourselves that those things are critical for our survival, and in reality they are not. On the other hand, healthcare, college education, retirement – these things are essential, and they come with a very high price tag here in America. So, not sure if we really have it that much better than people living in Europe Plus, my friends that live in NYC and LA tell me that many people in those areas cannot afford to own an apartment (let alone a house) or a parking spot

I, too, apologize for veering off-topic, though IMO this new discussion ties in pretty nicely with the original post – the part about concentrating too much on a person’s income when choosing a partner. Tina just gives more proof that money isn’t everything
C. 152

Cars and decent appliances??? Is that what its all about? Ugg. I seriously do not get it. To each their own indeed!
And seriously Stacy, you’re gonna compare Italy to North Korea? I hope you were joking, although its not even funny.
I’m with you Goldie. Status and “things” are nothing compared to health and education. Studies show that the happiest nations are the ones where you don’t NEED to marry a rich man to raise a healthy and well-educated child, because the country and community believes those are rights, not privileges for the wealthy.
The more I reflect on the op the more I see the despair of the young(ish) woman who wishes for a white knight to come take care of everything. Sad really. I wonder if she can benefit from role playing? You know, like rather than looking to marry an alpha she can instead marry one of the “60th precentile” guys she has “no problem” getting, and ask him to act like an alpha in the bedroom? If shes that good looking I’m sure many would oblige.
Tina 153

Hey I live on my own AND eat fresh mozz & tomatoes…
Stacy brings up good points though.

I think a lot of it is cultural too – I, from Seattle originally, have a goal-oriented attitude and a certain way of treating my money, etc… and i think outside the box. A lot of Italians don’t necessarily. It’s easy to stay at home (and sometimes nicer than having 5 to 10 roommates), there are not a lot of jobs and when people do have their own homes, they are inherited in a lot of cases. But, with the right attitude towards money anyone can save up and own a home – i do know several Italians who do so.
But Stacy I think your view of Italy is almost TOO grim. I’m the only person I know in Italy who does NOT have a car or a washing machine (only because I hate driving and I just haven’t found a washing machine I like) – people are obsessed with their scooters and cars here, and the appliances here are wonderful – more than just decent. I have not had to touch a flimsy thing since I’ve moved here. (Compared to Argentina, mamma mia…)
I may not own my apartment and I may not have a car, but I am a tri-lingual dual citizen with my own business as a translator and another business as a dance teacher, and I am living my dream! I worked hard to be able to live here and do what I want…. I feel filthy rich myself despite the small salary. I guess it’s all about perspective and priority. Alas on my way up the ‘Tina ladder’ I turned away from some very nice guys who would have gladly walked by my side, and that is why I am at this blog.
And this DOES stay on topic in an important way… one person’s impression of a particular standard of living or income or… success or whatever, is always going to be different than someone else’s. In a relationship I can see where this could be an issue, and if you put a multi-cultural couple together stuff like this comes up. SO… how to deal with such things when they come up?
But anyway. I have a piazza to go sit in… ciao!
Selena 154

@ Tina #153

Brava!
Helen 155

Tina, I checked out your website… you are HOT!

AND interesting. You will have no trouble finding a man if you want one. The good thing is that it sounds as though you absolutely love life anyway.
Tina 156

@Helen, aw, thanks!

The dating scene here in this town is actually pretty difficult – lots of cultural lessons to learn… plus I also have to weed out the guys who are just excited to date the international chick (and not really interested in who she is inside)…. and the women here, in my opinion, are agressive towards men – since I prefer doing ‘nothing’ and allowing the guy to pursue, it has been tricky! I have been ‘intercepted’ by many a crafty girl. I had a guy try to trick me into asking me out – he was confused as to why I hadn’t. But I won’t budge and it’s starting to work, with a little patience and the help of a local match service (without which I would be so lost), I’m finally dating.
Steve 157

Money is just a tool that aides in getting part of happiness. The game is about getting happiness.

I imagine to someone who sees herself and the world in terms of percentiles that sounds like a loser’s philosophy of sour grapes.   That is probably true for some people too.

Lets assume that a high percentile woman hooks up with the high percentile man.    Why would he bother with her?   She, him?   A piece of ass?   They could get that any time without having to give up some of their high earning time to someone to maintain a relationship.

What will they have to talk about?    Will those topics still be interesting enough to make getting together still be fun after eleven weeks?

Lets say one of them is forced to be in a waiting room for a while.   Nothing to read, nothing to do.    Assume they can’t occupy their minds with mundane matters like scheduling their time or deciding what to eat for dinner.

What is going on internally? Are they comfortable waiting?
Steve 158

I agree, Tina is quite the dish. The pictures of Italy on her blog are beautiful. I’m starting to wonder if Italy has jobs for programmers and how easy it is to buy tofu there
Anette 159

@49 Diane

Your post was brilliant. TY
Stacy 160

Goldie,

I don’t think that “material things” are overrated. It’s all a matter of perspective. One should try to live without, or at least see it up close before making judgements of what’s really important. Take it from someone who’s seen it up close: you do not want living in a cramped european-style apartment with 2 other generations of your family (try having sex there), you do not want to sweat in trains and spend most of your salary on basics (because they’re so damn expensive). It is just not a nice life. Of course, there’re more to life than just the material aspect, but a quick look at the Maslow pyramid suggests that the material stuff comes first
Stacy 161

Tina #153

It looks like you’ve got some great things going for you! I am very happy that you’re happy I guess the bottom line is that everyone’s dream is different. I am living my dream in NY too and wouldn’t trade places with the Queen of England All the best!
Steve 162

@Stacy
I watched “The Ugly Truth” this evening. I laughed my ass off. Thanks
Tina 163

@Stacy I have a bit of a crush on NY myself!
Goldie 164

@160 Stacy,

One should try to live without, or at least see it up close before making judgements of what’s really important.

Aw, what an interesting assumption. Let me tell you more about myself. I grew up in Eastern Europe. I shared a studio apartment with my parents for the first 17 years of my life, then I lived in dorms with roommates (sharing a room with 2-4 girls at a time) for seven years, then moved into another studio apartment, got married, had two children, came to America when the kids were 4yo and 15 months old. We started out with zero income for a family of four, then I found a job two months later and our family income skyrocketed to 20K/year, again for a family of four. I’ve used foodstamps, my kids went to daycare on a Welfare voucher, I bought everyone’s clothes at second-hand stores. If it wasn’t for my crappy marriage, I would’ve been happy.

Fast forward to this year – we’re comfortably middle-class, living in a nice suburban area, good schools, nice size newer colonial on a street that’s considered prestigious in my neighborhood… I decide to take the kids and the dog and move out. Just like that, my family income dropped in half and the expenses went up. We rented an apartment. (Had to buy a house later, because no apartments would take the dog, but it’s a much smaller house). I have to really watch my expenses now. I thought we’d all be miserable. Guess what? We’re not. Turns out, money is not such a big deal. You can have tons of it and be miserable, or you can have not as much of it and be happy. I’m not talking poverty level of course. There has to be some middle ground between “three generations in an apartment” and a 5000 sq ft McMansion. But, after a certain (pretty low, in fact) income level, there’s no correlation between money and happiness. I believe there was a research done earlier this year that found this out.
A-L 165

Very interesting, Goldie. Thanks for sharing!
christina 166

Money can Buy you anything but not happiness, happiness is what come with people around you and from within yourself so i agree with Goldie. It is better to find a man/woman who will keep you happy through out your life than a person whose income is above $100000.
Stacy 167

Goldie,

I have very similar background… I know exactly what you’re describing, I lived that life too and was miserable and angry, because I knew that there was a better life somewhere, and I wanted it. I guess by channeling my anger into hard work I ended up achieving more than I ever dreamed of faster than I ever thought I would. Marriage and children weren’t even on my list until a few months ago but I digress.

In your case, you said it yourself – you had a crappy marriage, sorry about that. You’re now happy just because you got out, you’re happy the same way I was happy when after a weekend of horrible tooth ache I finally got my wisdom tooth removed by my dentist on monday! That kept me happy for jeez, the entire day, I think. Wait till you see how happy you are after a few years of struggling to make ends meet, when the original feeling of relief of getting out of your marriage wears off.

Now, I am not suggesting that you won’t do fine. I wish you luck in getting back on your feet. All I am saying is that your case has nothing to do with how money pertain to happiness.

And that study that money don’t correlate with happiness after certain level? That is such total crap, don’t even get me started on that one. The only thing I can think of that money can’t buy is eternal youth, “for everything else there’s mastercard”. Seriously, nice life, education, healthcare, even love (because it is easier to be attractive or woo the person you want) and friendship (because it is easier to get exposed to people you want to be friends with) - money can buy.
Selena 168

@#167

I dunno Stacy, if any of these several threads on this topic are anything to go by….the women who have a good amount of money aren’t getting the person they supposedly want. Hence the complaints.
C. 169

Stacy, you’ve made a good case for people to want to make money. Of course education and healthcare and dental care are important. But if women can get that by their own hard work, the rest are just perks. I disagree that money gets you better friends, I’m not wealthy and I can’t imagine having better friends than I already have. As far as money buying love, well, I don’t really see that either. Look at celebrities. Matt Damon married a cocktail waitress! Shes cute but it doesn’t look like she spent loads of money on her appearance, he probably fell for her characteristics and the fact that she was already a good mother. On the flip side you have George Clooney, who dates a roster of beautiful party girls (a lot have probably had plastic surgery) yet he has no intention of marrying them. Why should he? There will always be a new one around the corner. Other notables are Robert Downey Jr who married a producer, shes cute but he could have any number of glamorous starlets. Sure, obviously shes financially secure but I’ve read interviews with him praising her nurturing nature and unrelenting encouragement, not her status. As for female celebrities I’ll point out Keri Russell, who is happily married a carpenter. No doubt he makes no where near what she does, but why should that bother her? Her money buys her the FREEDOM to marry for love.
My point is that spending a lot of money on your looks may get you a date with Clooney, but is that really better than having the characteristics that will win you long term love?
Karl R 170

Stacy said to Goldie: (#167)
“All I am saying is that your case has nothing to do with how money pertain to happiness.”

Really? I would say that it’s highly relevant. As Goldie implied, if your needs are being met, then the rest of the money barely makes a difference.

My income doubled four years ago. My lifestyle has barely changed, because there wasn’t much that I wanted which I didn’t buy on half the income.

Living below the poverty line (which I’ve done before) is unpleasant. But once you achieve financial security, money doesn’t contribute to happiness.

Stacy said: (#167)
“friendship (because it is easier to get exposed to people you want to be friends with) - money can buy.”

I want to be friends with to people who are funny, trustworthy, easy to get along with, and who share some of the same interests that I do. How does money help me “get exposed” to those people?

Stacy said: (#167)
“even love (because it is easier to be attractive or woo the person you want)”

If my money makes me more attractive to a woman, then I don’t want her.

If a woman is going out with me because I’m taking her on expensive dates (instead of the free concert in the park), then she’s not into me. She’s just hanging around temporarily for the perks.
Stacy 171

Selena #168

I beg to differ. The woman who paid 40K for plastic surgery and got a man she always wanted? What is this is not buying love?
Selena 172

Stacy,
I’m speaking of the numerous posts on this blog from high earning women and their laments about finding men. Specifically, men who earn more than they, or don’t resent them, or want them period. Apparently money doesn’t buy love. In the OP’s case, money bought her a certain look, which attracted a certain man, but she’s questioning if the love will last if her looks don’t. I wouldn’t say the 40k bought her love. You’re stretching.
Helen 173

Stacy, some viewpoints expressed in your comments show remarkable levels of presumption and shallowness. How do you know how long Goldie has been living apart from her ex? How can you presume to tell her how she will feel in a few years? That is tactless to say the least.

And the belief that money can buy love – either as mates or as friends – is naive to the point of wondering if anyone who thinks this way ever really experienced mature love. You can be surrounded with people who are apparently of the class that you deem to be worthy of your attention, but you cannot ever genuinely be friends or lovers with them unless there is mutual respect, tenderness, common interests, and a willingness to sacrifice on others’ behalf. Money does not and will never buy these things.
Tina 174

With regard to living without:

A year and a half ago I went through quite a crisis and lost everything…I mean EVERYTHING… I worried about I’d get to the next week, let alone month. It was baaaad. I mean really bad. (The translation business basically came to a screeching halt – tango saved me after a while and paid my rent until the translations kicked back up, but that was not immediate and it was really hard). I was living in Buenos Aires at the time and saw poverty on a daily basis, which further emphasized the fact that I had… nada. Nothing. I was grateful that my American and Italian (EU) nationalities gave me opportunities that a lot of the people I saw didn’t have (I could leave – they couldn’t).

Doing “without” made me realize just how little I need.

That’s not to say I don’t appreciate material comforts – believe me, after living in Buenos Aires where my bedroom door simply fell off the hinges and on to the floor (because things in Argentina do that), when I got to Italy, I felt like such a queen to be renting an apartment with good, solid heavy doors on durable hinges that weren’t going anywhere. This is actually an example of why I feel my quality of life in Italy is so high.

As long as I can pay the rent, feed myself, and occasionally partake in some of the delicious deals that the European low-cost airlines offer (recently went to Palermo for 11 Euros for example), I’m content. When extra opportunities or things present themselves and I’m able to fund them, I feel nothing but pure gratitude that I can, because of where I was before. I know that it may not always be this way, and I count my blessings.

In any event, it’s all about perspective and priority. Regardless of where one stands in terms of standard of living and material comforts, it’s important to be honest about it and I guess find some sort of balance with your partner, should their stance be different.
Tina 175

One more thing!

I wasn’t going to comment but I just can’t resist.

Stacy said: Take it from someone who’s seen it up close: you do not want living in a cramped european-style apartment with 2 other generations of your family (try having sex there), you do not want to sweat in trains and spend most of your salary on basics (because they’re so damn expensive). It is just not a nice life.

Ok, regarding the trains – yeah… I have to admit I don’t enjoy the regional trains without air conditioning. Blech. But it’s a small price to pay…

Re: cramped Euro-style apt with two generations, etc…. well…. kind of depends – I can see this happening in Rome where it’s just so expensive. But in Lecce, where I live, most people I know live on their own. It’s very affordable here. However, since I grew up in an Italian family, I’m not really phased when people do live with their families. Living on one’s own is ideal (I must say I prefer it), but I barely blink when I meet people who live with their families. It’s just normal to me I guess.

I’d also like a definition of basics. If by basics you mean rent, then yes depending on what city one lives in, that can be expensive. But the places I have lived, rent has been quite reasonable. If by basics you mean food and health care, you don’t have a solid argument as the food here, particularly produce, is much cheaper than it is in the US, and health care is public and available to all. If by basics you mean appliances, not really. If you go to the larger stores outside of city centers, you can find very reasonable deals on good quality appliances.

Italian life IS a nice life and it suits me very fine. But it depends on where you live. I may not be saying that if I lived in Naples for example! But here in Lecce, I can say it.
Stacy 176

Tina,

this is an interesting debate in and of itself – European lifestyle vs. American lifestyle, but I am not sure that this is the right forum for this. But since Evan hasn’t kicked us out yet…

I gotta tell you that by basics I mean simply food and every-day essentials, like soap, toothpaste and manicures. To put things in perspective, I own a fairly large place in one of the most expensive zip-codes in this country and spend about ~36pc of my after tax income on home ownership and the basics, with the rest available for discretionary spending and savings.

From my numerous conversations with friends who live in Europe (France, Germany, Italy), it is clear that the same level of lifestyle and consumption is simply unattainable to them. Partially, it is a result of higher prices to income ratios, and partially, which I think the root cause of all this actually is – a result of much lower upward mobility in European countries (i.e. poor stays poor), since we all started at approximately the same level.

As an anecdotic example, a french friend of mine visited New York this summer, and she was extremely excited to buy fake nails at Duane Reade for $7 and see that they looked very similar to those done in a salone. She told me that to do such nails in a salone in Paris would cost her over 60 euros. Holy crap, over 80 bucks for a manicure I routinely pay $20 for in NYC. I think she bought about 5 sets of those nails to take with her.

Also, you may not know about it, but discount designer clothing stores in NYC (such as Cenury 21) are kept in business almost entirely by European tourists. It is pretty ironic to watch Italians piling up slightly defective D&G-s and Valentino’s at 50% off in NYC, though I can’t blame them considering how darn expensive those same designers are in Milan (enough to send even me, a big spender on luxury, into the state of deep shock).

So, I guess from what I see, Europeans in general are willing to accept much lower level of consumption, and they’re still happy. I think I am forever spolied by American lifestyle where consumption is very high, so I am completely unwilling to compromise on it, no matter what the other perks may be.

To your point that “it depends on where you live” – duh, of course the bigger the city the more expensive it is to live there. I could probably buy a small palace in Oklahoma for the value of my NY apartment, but this is a moot point because what the city has to offer is a big part of the lifestyle, that would’ve been forgone if I moved there. Similar to how you forgo what Rome or Milan have to offer because you can’t afford a decent apartment there, lets say.
Tina 177

Stacy, I enjoy talking to you about this stuff and hearing your perspective and Thanks Evan for not kicking us out!
naomi 178

GET OVER YOURSELVES…. LOL!
Ok… I admit that I did not read ALL of the 177 comments that came before mine…
I have been divorced for over 10 years and have been taking care of my six children alone without child support. I did not look for a step-father for my kids and I did not look for a paycheck. I never once calculated that if I met someone and brought them in the house… how much I would save on babysitters, rent and food… no, I decided to go to University after a year of being divorced. Part of the reason was to work toward a career to be able to support my kids better and the other reason was that the government (Canada/Quebec) gave money to women in my situation for going to school.
I didn’t date anyone for the first six years and it was only after moving to Israel (with all of my kids) that I began to try to date
I made ALL of the common mistakes and some not-so-common and after dating and/or talking to a lot of different types of men… I found that it is NOT about money, looks or even personality.
It is about us. We need to understand ourselves… be happy with ourselves… learn to be by ourselves and only when we know and understand what we expect from ourselves in this world and what our values and goals are, can we begin to look for a romantic partner
We must get out of our heads the notion that we can “find ourselves” with someone else. If we need another human to “complete” us… than we are not ready… and yes, sometimes it takes a long time but if we don’t put in the work… we will also be lazy in our relationships

What I found that was most important to me was… morals, ethics, and motivation. If we have no motivation to be better… do better in life than it’s probably ok that our partner won’t have either… and that would not be considered compromising or settling. If we disrespect lovers and people in general… than we can expect to attract like-minded partners. But I worked on myself and decided over those six years that what mattered most was if the man had morals and most of all if he had a passion about something in his life… whether he had motivation to grow and change
We must be honest with ourselves. That is the ONLY thing that matters when looking for a life partner. All these calculations won’t help… all the egos won’t help… we have to understand our flaws and then to be able to see and either accept or not accept other people’s flaws
Know what you want… and go and get it but be humble and kind while you’re looking and every date that doesn’t turn out to be “the one” should be looked at as a learning experience and an often “funny” one at that

Naomi Adler
Israel
GetTheGuy 179

Great article Evan!

I couldn’t agree with you more about the difference between settling and compromising. Something we teach on our courses over at GetTheGuy.co.uk is that women should never settle for a guy that isn’t the man of their dreams.
gus 180

nice post… as a fella just arrived at 40 i am finding it a jungle out there… i cant remember it ever being that way! i have been snooping the internet and it is nice to finally see some decent debate about modern relationships/issues.
for me i am a fan of older women precisely because they are easy – not in a sleazy way though there are plenty of those! no, because they are truly adult and they are simply nicer people to deal with. i was a late bloomer in relationships and i guess i have missed the whole wife and kids thing. these last few years i have tried to do that but as your comments/stories indicate i have had no luck.
i have met a truckload of single attractive women in that 30-40 age group and many of them i am still scratching my head as to what i was thinking in becoming involved with them. i totally believe that it is a modern phenom that it is women who are running the game now, and they way they are playing it is gonna leave alot of them quite lonely in there middle years…
anyway i am heading back out to the promised land of the older woman, seems a bit more normal out thataways!
good luck to you all!
Karl R 181

gus said: (#180)
“I totally believe that it is a modern phenom that it is women who are running the game now”

I have no idea what you mean. Either I choose to ask a woman out, or I don’t; if I ask, then she chooses to accept or decline the invitation. Or a woman chooses to ask me out, or not; if she asks, I choose to accept or decline the invitation.

How is either sex “running the game” more than the other? Everyone has equal veto power in relationships. If you believe someone has more control over your dating life than you, you’re overlooking the control you do have.
Natasha 182

My husband was brilliant, competitive, ambitious, successful. Does that equal Alpha? He helped tremendously with our 5 children, did enormous amounts around the house and half the cooking…Beta? (He got killed, by the way)
We were/are both difficult people – but crazy about each other. To the person who called love a warm fuzzy feeling that fades in 2 years – BULLSHIT – we had a great sex life and romance right up till he was killed.
What on earth is wrong with being gorgeous, sexy, etc? I’m very old but want a fellow so I wear a push-up bra, 2″ heels (high enough to be sexy but I can walk, for God’s sake) and tight skirts. My hair’s below my butt. Men love it even though it’s pathetically thin. Why the hell not? When I run I wear shorts (hot pink, lime green) and a sports bra, but I doll up whenever I go out anywhere.
I don’t get why women object to looking feminine. I saw a really fat woman yesterday in a black pleated skirt, white embroidered blouse & black ruffly scarf with her hair nicely done. I told her how great she looked. A man her age who wasn’t slender himself would have been ecstatic to go out with her.
JS 183

Evan,

As much as I love your articles and advice and believe in almost 100% of what you write….this is the one area where I disagree with you. (Full disclosure: I am a woman and I dont make or have a ton of money, I do okay, I can pay my bills and have some spending money but I definitely dont even make 6 figures not by a long shot)….

(I actually replied to a similar article on this subject on your site.)

You wrote above: “One of the big points of having your own money – at least as a man – is that you don’t have to be with someone else who has money. This keeps our dating options extremely wide, because it allows us to look for women who are attractive, cool and nurturing – without having to restrict ourselves to the top 5% of earners like so many women appear to, in spite of the fact that they’re already in the top 5% themselves.”

However, those men who make lots of money dont keep their options wide open…they tend to restrict themselves to the top 5% of beautiful women. That is their needs exchange. Beauty and femininity are very linked for men.

Most women dont value looks to the degree that most men do. Money/successful/provider-abiliity and masculinity are very linked for women even affluent women. A man’s financial strenght/social proof/power in the world is attractive to us. A man who needs us financially or is financially inferior to us (by a lot …not talking a $10k difference in salaries) is kind of a mojo-killer for women.

Luckily, I dont really have this problem as I am uber successful, but if that were to change, I doubt I would suddenly feel any differently from how I do now (i.e., I want a man who makes more than me). But I give a lot of latitiude in looks / appearance that men don’t give women.

….For the record, men and women are not equal. They are and should be treated with equal justice under the law but they are not equal.
JS 184

PS….it’s almost as if successful women are punished for their success.

..oops, you’ve made too much money, you now have to settle for men who make a lot less than you.

What you’re a woman who only make $40k a year and you’re dating a partner in a top 20 law firm, you must be a gold-digger.

But men of all financial levels still expect to date women who are knock-outs.
Karl R 185

JS said: (#184)
“it’s almost as if successful women are punished for their success.
..oops, you’ve made too much money, you now have to settle for men who make a lot less than you.”

Last month I was out dancing, and I ended up being the best dancer (of either sex). That evening, none of my partners were as good as I was.

Was I being “punished” for my success as a dancer by having to dance with women who weren’t my equals? Or was I being “rewarded” for my success … since I could get a dance with any woman there, and even the best dancers there were looking forward to dancing with me.

I’ve dated women who were more/less intelligent than me, more/less attractive than me, younger/older than me, earned more/less than me, better/worse shape than me, more/less skilled dancers than me.

Fortunately, I’ve never dated anyone who felt they were being “punished” for being successful/skilled/gifted. I suspect most people would find that attitude to be unattractive.
Paragon 186

@ JS

“Most women dont value looks to the degree that most men do. ”

This faulty premise has been soundly refuted by me and other posters countless of times.

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What’s the Difference Between Settling and Compromising?

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