What Do Men Get Out of Looking At Other Women? (And Why Do Men Cheat?)
Dear Evan,
What is it that men get out of looking/gazing at beautiful women, nude or otherwise?
I have read on other websites that men actually get a chemical “high” in their brain when they see an attractive woman and that is why they are so drawn to look at other women even when they are in love with another. I’m wondering, from your perspective, what you think it is. Are men sexually “turned on” when they see a beautiful woman naked and automatically fantasize about having sex with her or is it more of just plain old admiration for the beautiful female form with no arousal? And, if it is sexual arousal, does that happen only in seeing a naked woman (magazine, strip joint, porn) or does that happen when you see a beautiful clothed woman as well? I have always been very curious about this as I think it is very different for women. –Cat
Dear Cat,
Thoughtful and provocative question, and I’m going to attempt to tackle it even though I’m no therapist, historian or biologist.
First off, I want to acknowledge that everything you wrote, in my estimation, is true.
Men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.
Men can appreciate the female form, either clothed or naked.
Men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.
Men are aroused by images of clothed or naked women (but not as much as you’d think.)
What I’d like to add to all of those ideas is that none of that should affect your relationship…unless you make it affect your relationship.
In other words:
GOOD men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.
GOOD men can appreciate the female form, either clothed or naked.
GOOD men are aroused by images of clothed or naked women (but not as much as you’d think.)
Without covering the entire landscape of debates about DNA or evolution or propagation of the species, here’s my take on the whole thing:
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202 Comments »Filed Under Cheating
Clare 1
I have to say, this was a major growing up point for me, when I read Manslations by Jeff Mac, and looked at the evidence, and realised that, yes indeed, most men are on some level sexually attracted to most attractive women. Even the devoted man by my side.
It actually was a liberating realisation for me. It meant that, no, I don’t have to worry about that attractive busty blonde at the party, because she doesn’t mean any more to him than the tall, willowy brunette with the short skirt. Other attractive women are a fact of life, might as well get used to it.
Now that I know this, actually, how men’s minds work, I am vastly grateful and smile warmly to myself every time there’s a gorgeous woman around, or on television, and he keeps his thoughts to himself for my sake
Nicole 2
Why are so many women invested in the idea that women aren’t visually stimulated? I love seeing attractive men with nice bodies. It doesn’t have anything to do with whatever man I might be with, nor would it make me cheat. And I think that if it turns on your partner before he comes to bed with you, or if you watch it together and get ideas all the better.
I’m really annoyed that we keep acting as though women are these overly emotional creatures whose delicate female eyes don’t respond to dirty, dirty porn (or at least romantic real sex) and nicely built/hung nake male bodies. I’m pretty pissed off that the new movie Magic Mike does not have male nudity. All of those perfect bodies and no one goes full monty. What is up with that? I actually got to a strip show where the men, who were really attractive and really well-endowed, took it all off, and I’d be the biggest lying liar from Lying-ham if I said that it didn’t turn me on. I think every woman in that room (ranging in age from 21 to elderly) was turned on by what their eyes saw. I’ve never gone to a strip show again b/c in most places, men can’t go full monty (and it’s a big load of crap and a waste of time).
We might be conditioned to say it’s bad, and that the women are exploited (even though female porn stars make more money than their male counterparts), but a lot of that is socialization. Women aren’t supposed to like looking at dirty pictures and dirty movies and they like to label everyone who does as being a pervert and a cheater.
I found this article and the fact that women and men have the same physiological response to these images is not a surprise. Nor is it a surprise to think that women will either deny it or insist that it is indicative of negative pathology.
I THINK (thanks to a male friend and a documentary that I saw) that that there IS more female produced porn that is more about the romance and the idea that women should be pleasured and less “wham/bam” than what turns a lot of women off.
But I’ll be the first to say…I’m a woman, I have eyes, and my eyes like seeing attractive men and no they will not fall out at the sight of an attractive man who is working hard to please a woman. TMI but the internet makes me okay admitting it, and I have other friends who totally agree.
There is stuff that turns men on, and stuff that turns women on, but I think a lot of it is more production value and story line and less that women dont’ have eyes and don’t like to see it. We just like to see it played out differently. But some men like that more romance oriented porn too.
Now clearly, there is stuff that is and should be illegal. But legal adults have legal, consensual sex that is filmed is not the problem, and it’s not a sign of some mental defect if you like seeing it sometimes (which isn’t the same as the people who can’t leave their computer and get fired from work b/c they can’t stop looking for even a few minutes).
Sophia 3
This is so sad, it makes me not want to date anyone and be single forever…
Nicole 4
Oh, sorry to double post but I should mention that at that show, a table of older women rushed the stage, tackled one of the dancers, and scared the hell out of him. The bouncers had to pull them off (he was insanely good looking) and he was clearly shaken. I’m sorry he was traumatized but it was kind of hilarious (and I apologize for that b/c no one would be able to laugh if that was done to a female stripper). They took him DOWN to the floor.
Yeah, but let’s keep believing that women are so offended and repulsed by male nudity outside of their own bedrooms.
Elaine 5
I think the main reasons I used to get upset when I saw my man ogling attractive women is because 1) It’s was okay for him to look, but I couldn’t; 2) They would often cheat with these other women, but THAT was okay because they’re “genetically programmed” to; and 3) I liked to think I was special to him; special enough that he wouldn’t want to hurt my feelings by so blatantly staring at a beautiful woman in such a way that the words, “Damn, I sure wish I had her instead of you” could be heard by everyone in the room, even though he hadn’t actually uttered them aloud. I’m 43 and I’ve dated probably 30 men in my lifetime who have done one or all of these things, and I realize now that this is simply how they are, so guess what? My turn! I have zero qualms about flirting in front of my dates or cheating on boyfriends. I feel bad for any man who might actually want a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner as I did all those years, but you have no right to complain when a woman cheats. MEN are the ones who have made us this way. Do unto others, boys. Do unto others….
Evan Marc Katz 6
@Elaine – You’re still missing it.
I didn’t say it’s okay for him, but not for you.
I didn’t say it’s okay to cheat based on genetic programming.
I didn’t say it’s okay for a man to blatantly ogle to the point that it’s embarrassing.
That’s what YOU experienced.
My point is that you can have a “monogamous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner” who still appreciates other women’s beauty.
I know this because I am that partner to my wife.
And I can assure you that the answer to cheating men is not to become a cheating woman. Learn to accept good men; don’t become just like the bad ones.
erica 7
I am a woman. I turn my head when I see a hot shirtless man jogging down the street. I have a mega crush on a few sexy rock stars. I still have the magazine of a shirtless Ryan Reynolds from two years ago.
My boyfriend has porn, he like ScarJo and he sees pretty women in public.
We love each other dearly. He is handsome and sexy, and I let him know that often. He tells me I am beautiful and sexy and also what a great person I am, often.
I am not afraid of him leaving me for a porn star – or the waitress. Because we trust each other with the look but don’t touch rule.
I think the problem women have with men’s behavior in this arena is their own sefl-image and self esteem. Look, just because your man like a gorgeous actress does not mean he thinks she is better than you and that you need to meet some standard that society has created.
You do need to be yourself, take care of your health both physically and mentally. And, when you do meet a great guy that loves you for you, trust him.
Jennifer 8
Nicole #2- I can relate to everything you said, from liking porn to thinking that male ‘strippers’ that don’t take everything off are a waste of time
Nicole 9
Oops, here was the link.
Women respond physiologically to seeing sex the same way men do…more might feel guilty about it, but then again, so do some of the men. But that is socialization, not biology.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-24/living/o.women.watching.porn_1_arousal-candida-royalle-explicit-sexual-imagery?_s=PM:LIVING
SalsaQ 10
@Sophia
Evan also said
Once again, I am not defending men. I am explaining men. Not every single man on the planet. Some men only have eyes for their wife. Some men are attracted to other men. Some men couldn’t conceive of having sex with a woman he didn’t love.
Sophia, not every man is like that. There are some who would never seriously think about having sex with a woman outside of a committed love relationship. If I insist on one of those men, I make my dating pool smaller. Another option is to learn to feel safe with a man who is in the majority of men, most of whom who won’t cheat on me even while physically desiring other women from time to time. The trick is to tell those men from the ones who will cheat.
The third alternative is to give up on dating and learn to be content being w/o a significant other. Having a dating or life partner is one part of life’s richness, but not the whole of it. In our culture we are not accustomed to thinking about the option of going solo and never having an intimate partner. This is a legit choice for some and there are resources and communities out there for people who choose that path.
Susan61 11
I have no problem with a man who looks at beautiful women and appreciates them. I look at beautiful women all the time. I am amazed at the cornucopia of beautiful women everywhere in my city and think it’s like being a kid in a candy store for men (unfortunately I don’t feel women have the same luxury…..at least not in my city where eligible single women outnumber men). Beautiful men also turn my eye. Women who are highly jealous and insecure will have a big problem as I do believe men just have to look, that’s how they are made and there is nothing wrong with that.
But if I was on a date with a man, I would not stare at another man or find it difficult to concentrate on my date’s conversation at dinner because there was a hot blond 20 years my junior sitting at the table behind me. When I was out on the dance floor with said date, I would not find it difficult to pay attention to my date, and be constantly looking at the younger hotter women on the dance floor. This happened to me with the last (very good looking) guy I dated, he was 49 (I was 47) when this happened. You would think he’d have enough maturity to look in a discreet way and not ogle to the point that he made me uncomfortable. Needless to say, it did not last, he dumped me and continues to try to meet and date women 10 -20 years his junior.
A man can look discreetly and still be respectful to his wife, date, friend. Ogling younger hotter women when you are in the company of a woman you are having a date or relationship with is just plain rude and bad manners.
My ex-BF and I used to talk about what women were hot, and it did not bother me because I knew he was not going to cheat. I am confident enough to know that there are always going to be younger, hotter women than me and the smart thing as a woman to do is to accept this fact and also express appreciation for female beauty.
Goldie 12
I notice beautiful/handsome/cute men, women and dogs, and encourage the man to do the same. If this leads to him cheating on me with one of them, his loss. Never happened so far, though. Same goes for strip clubs and porn.
@ Nicole #2 – love your comment!
Jane 13
Hey, anyone read Eric Anderson’s book, The Monogamy Gap?. Open your mind and check it out before responding to this post, (you can peruse a few pages on Amazon), as it sheds a great deal of light on the subject. Anderson admits that he only writes for men and though his book deals mainly with men, he acknowledges that much the same may be said for women. Sorry Evan, but I disagree with the study that claims that women can be perfectly content with the same man forever…. we’re only socialized to think we would be content with that. The desire for sexual variety goes both ways. Here is a quote from a review of the book that sums it up: “Anderson suggests that monogamy is an irrational ideal because if fails to fulfill a lifetime of sexual desires. Cheating therefore becomes a rational response to an irrational situation”. He has some outside-the-box suggestions about how to re-tool relationships so they don’t end in breakup or divorce due to cheating. Much of the book is hard to argue with. I didn’t write it, but it is great food for thought. Marriage is failing in many societies worldwide and this book offers some hope.
helene 14
When I’m in a relationship, I will frequently point out hot women (and occasionally men) to my partner when we are in a bar, restaurant or even a shopping mall! I think this “partners in crime” approach works very well as it then becomes a secret pass-time you share (ogling gorgeous people) rather than something he has to feel ashamed about. I think men greatly appreciate this sort of approach, and the confidence it implies on your part makes you very sexually appealling to him. I would never ask him to compare us (nor, to be honest, would I tolerate it if he said”yeah, her tits are much better than yours”) but in fact it often leads to the opposite scenario – the more often you say “check out that girl with the amazing ass” the more likely he will reply, “there’s some pretty great ass right here,” and give yours a squeeze.
Karl R 15
Elaine said: (#5)
“you have no right to complain when a woman cheats. MEN are the ones who have made us this way. Do unto others, boys.”
I’ve been cheated on before. (And I’ve never cheated on anyone.)
So if I follow your line of reasoning, my fiancée has no right to complain if I cheat on her, because women are the ones who made me this way. I would just be doing unto my fiancée what other women have done to me.
I think your reasoning is flawed. You are responsible for your own infidelity, regardless of how many men (or women) have cheated on you in the past.
Elaine said: (#5)
“I feel bad for any man who might actually want a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner as I did all those years,”
As a 42 year old man who found a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner, I can offer you an observations.
If you were truly a monogamous partner, you wouldn’t try to use other people’s infidelity as justification for your own infidelity. You would respond to infidelity by leaving and continuing to search for a partner with more integrity.
Elaine said: (#5)
“It’s was okay for him to look, but I couldn’t”
Why couldn’t you?
My fiancée and I are both allowed to look at other people. We’re both allowed to dance with other people. We’re both allowed to flirt with other people (within reason).
As long as the same rules apply to both people, it’s possible to have a healthy relationship.
Elaine said: (#5)
“the words, ‘Damn, I sure wish I had her instead of you’ could be heard by everyone in the room, even though he hadn’t actually uttered them aloud.”
Everyone in the room doesn’t have telepathy. More importantly, you don’t have telepathy either. Therefore, that voice you heard was your own insecurity talking, not his actual thoughts.
Even if the men were ogling enough to be boorish (which was likely the case), your interpretation of their thoughts sounds incredibly insecure. Good partners don’t tolerate that degree of insecurity, because they don’t have to.
Nicole, (#2, etc.)
I find your attitude a lot healthier than Elaine’s (#5) or Sophia’s (#3).
helene, (#14)
Good advice, especially the final sentence.
Mia 16
I roll my eyes whenever women say all men are cheaters or only want sex with a variety of random young women. It’s not true — there are plenty of nice nerdy devoted guys out there. Most women just don’t want to marry them.
BUT, when I was younger and dumber I had affairs with married men and men in ltrs. Nearly every woman I know has been propositioned by, if not outright hooked up with, an attached guy in a years long relationship. And these were not blatantly sleazy player types – nobody ever would have guessed, bc they seemed like good guys that are real husband/bf material. In my case, they got to be with a woman way younger, more appreciative, and more sexually enthusiastic than their wives. It’s also very common to see middle aged married women let themselves go, get frumpy, stop putting out, nag the guy, prize the kids over him, and not make him feel appreciated.
Other women are at risk of being cheated on down the line if they too much fall into the stereotype you see in movies of the woman the guy is “supposed” to marry – generic girl next door type with generic aspirations, made him wait six months for sex, no original style or high sex drive but she’s nice and would be a good mom. Maybe she was hard to get. And, eventually, I believe men crave someone more real – not just hotter, but more intellectually challenging, quirky, and not predictably fitting the mold.
So Evan sometimes paints too rosy a picture of men, but this is never something I’ve worried about, once I felt I was with a good guy– you’d drive yourself crazy if you did.
Ruby 17
There’s a big difference for most us between feeling attracted to other people and acting on those desires. There’s a big difference between stealing a glance at an attractive person when you’re with your partner, and ogling them. There’s a big difference between occasionally looking at porn and being addicted to it. Of course, we may often reign in our desires out of respect for our partners.
My happily married male friends have volunteered the information that the idea of sleeping with a stranger holds no appeal for them, although that probably doesn’t mean they don’t find other women attractive. Actually, I know more females who have either cheated, or thought about it, than I do men who have. I also think that people cheat on their partners for reasons other than simple physical attraction, although that is a factor.
There’s a big difference between fantasy and reality. For many of us, appreciation of other attractive people while we’re happily partnered, remains in the realm of fantasy. If my boyfriend tells me that he has always found Elizabeth Taylor attractive, that’s not likely to bother me. If it’s one of my best friends, that’s a different story.
Sasha 18
Every since I was a teenager, I have seen attractive men (and sometimes women) and I always wonder and fantasize what it would be like to have sex with him (or her). I am in my 40s now and although I don’t love having sex w/ my partner, I still think about having sex w/ that cute new check out guy at the grocery store and every other cute/handsome man who crosses my path.
I am not my partner’s type and I know this. I lose on that count. He isn’t my type either. In a lot of ways. But, you work with what you’ve got, I guess…
Helen 19
I wonder why the title of this entry is what it is. Men looking at other women is not the same thing as men cheating; they may not even be related.
People look at other people. People notice when other people are attractive, whether you’re a man or a women looking at a man or a woman. There is no shame or sin in this. It’s as others have mentioned above: what matters is not whether men (or women) look, but whether they act on on that attraction. The vast majority of the time (given how many attractive people exist), they don’t.
So let’s relax about this. Eye candy is a pleasure, just as works of art and beautiful natural scenes are a pleasure.
Chau 20
If you see a hot guy near you, you’d at least take a few glances at him.
If you see a car crash in the middle of the street, you’d stare at it.
If you see a nerdy guy cruising down the street on his unicycle, you’d stare at him.
If you see a small cute dog skipping down the street, you’d keep looking and want to pet him.
Basically, if anything is hot…weird…strange…unusual…different, you’d look at it too. No biggie.
As long as your man doesn’t keep ogling at a woman in front of you, it’s no big deal.
But if you feel disrespected and you let him know it, he’s gotta stop.
Simple as that.
Keri C 21
Women would be perfectly content with the same man forever, as long as he mixed it up in the bedroom a bit.
I can’t relate to that. I really loved my ex boyfirned of ten years and yet I still got bored with him in the bedroom. Women cheat more or as much as men do nowadays. I think some women like variety as well but are more quiet about it.
henriette 22
I find it perfectly acceptable and healthy when a guy appreciates other women, but there are some basic steps he can take to ensure that I feel okay with it. Eg.
1. If you talk about other women being attractive, make sure you balance it out by occasionally telling me how attractive you find me, too.
2. If you ogle other women when you’re with my friends, they will think you’re a disrespectful dick.
3. A surreptitious glance is cool. Leering is not.
Clare 23
helene @14
I really liked your post. I think it’s far better to bring the looking at other people out into the open, and try to approach it like a mature adult rather than get upset about it. My boyfriend knows a few of the famous people I’ve got a crush on, and vice versa, and every now and again we’ll tease each other about it. It feels so much better than getting annoyed about it.
The security expressed in that actually seems to lessen the need to ogle.
I really do appreciate a guy who feels that discretion is the better part of valour though and doesn’t openly ogle or comment on other women’s attractiveness, not because he thinks you’ll shame him for it but because he’s being considerate. *That* is a good man
And I loved your last line! Comments like that make us feel like a million bucks!
susan 24
Chau got it in one. It’s the respect thing. Again.
A former BF i had used to delight in pointing out women – particular body parts – he found attractive (often my friends) . I found it amusing to start with but the novelty wore off quickly – not least becuase he put more effort into describing their ”assets” than mine.
Similarly I can appreciate a nice male body as much as the next girl, but I would NEVER go on about it to a partner. Especially if they had any insecurity about their looks. it’s just plain mean.
As for the comment about men who enjoy porn can still be great fathers and husbands. Yeah well, maybe, but for me that is a total dealbreaker. A guy who wants to get off on porn is not the guy for me.
Tom 25
Susan @ 24
“men who enjoy porn can still be great fathers and husbands. Yeah well, maybe, but for me that is a total dealbreaker. A guy who wants to get off on porn is not the guy for me”.
Well that pretty much rules out pretty much every single guy for you so. I’d say nearly all men get off on porn; it’s just a matter of admitting it to you or not. I’ve never met one man in my life who genuinely doesn’t watch porn even a small bit, and I’d be reluctant to believe one who said he didn’t.
Nadia 26
Nicole #2, Thanks for posting! I agree with you a hundred percent. When I first started dating my boyfriend, he was muscular and fit and this caught my eye. Four years later and 25 pounds heavier and I feel gypped. My hunch is that it behooves both of the sexes evolutionarily to find a fit mate. My hunch is that it also behooves women of the human species to find multiple partners during ovulation so that there is a true survival of the fittest in those little swimmers. That’s exactly what animals do and why they produce offspring by more than one male. I think there’s a lot of social nurturing that has taken women away from their nature.
Heather 27
Susan,
I know how you feel. I’m not a big fan of porn, myself. I “get” why it exists, I “get” what EMK is saying. But still. It makes me uncomfortable if a guy I am dating, is often looking at porn, talking about it, etc. It makes me wonder well gee, what am I to you, chopped liver?
I told my BF that if he’s occasionally looking at it, fine. I’m OK if he goes to a strip club with his buddies, I’m not HAPPY about it but I’m not going to cause drama about it either. But if it becomes a regular thing, well, that may be a problem for me. I’m sure that guys who occasionally look at porn or go to strip clubs or fantasize about hot women, do make good partners and parents, but when it starts getting to the point where it’s all the time, I draw the line there. Especially if it’s hard core porn, and ESPECIALLY porn with underage girls. That is an immediate dealbreaker and one where I might need to contact the authorities.
I’m OK if my BF looks at other women occasionally but if he goes on and on about it, I’m not going to be happy. I don’t ogle men in front of him, so he cannot ogle women in front of me. No double standards allowed in this establishment…..
Elaine 28
@Evan #6: I didn’t mean to imply that YOU said it was okay…it was the men I was with who held the double-standard.
@Salsa #10: You state “The trick is to tell those men from the ones who will cheat.” Please tell me how to do that, because I’ve never met a man yet who has informed me he was going to cheat. What’s your sure-fire tipoff that he’s a cheater? Every single man who cheated on me came across as the most honest, sincere, sweet, wonderful human being…sent me flowers, left me little notes, swore he’d NEVER do that to me, blah blah blah. My sure-fire tipoff is if he has a penis…so far I’ve been 100% accurate with that one.
@Karl #15: When you have been cheated on and lied to again and again and again and again and again…it gets old. Until I was 38, I was as monogomous as the day is long so please don’t try to turn this on me by saying I’m not a truly monogamous person. I DID ”respond to infidelity by leaving and continuing to search for a partner with more integrity.” But how many times, honestly, does a person have to touch a hot stove and get burned before you say, “Geez, you think they’d learn by now, dumbass!” Doing the same thing 30 times and expecting different results is the definition of insanity…why doesn’t it apply here?
Regarding your statement “As long as the same rules apply to both people, it’s possible to have a healthy relationship,” I wholeheartedly concur. The men I have been with have made it clear, however, that I am not allowed to abide by the same rules, usually with a belt to the mouth or immediate dismissal.
And finally: “Therefore, that voice you heard was your own insecurity talking, not his actual thoughts.” You were not there. You did not see the looks of pity coming from the majority of people in that room. And where the HELL do you think insecurity comes from? As @Henriette #22 says: ”If you talk about other women being attractive, make sure you balance it out by occasionally telling me how attractive you find me, too.” Would it KILL you to tell me you appreciate the effort I went to to look nice for you? I’ve never even had a BF ”like” something I’ve posted on Facebook let alone tell me they think I’m pretty.
I wish people would stop spreading the fallacy of fidelity and teach us how not to care. THAT’S advice I could actually use!
Evan Marc Katz 29
@Elaine – Sorry you’ve been so hurt, sweetie. But fidelity is not a fallacy. About 20% of men cheat and about 14% of women cheat. That means the vast majority of relationships are faithful. And if you keep choosing men who cheat on you (or HIT you, as you’ve implied), the only thing that’s clear to me is not that all men are liars, cheaters and abusers, but that you have a TERRIBLE radar and questionable confidence for consistently choosing such low-character men. If you believe that good men and fidelity are impossible, I can promise you: no good, faithful men will want to walk in your door. Get thee to a therapist. There’s no good dating advice for someone who holds men in such low esteem.
Helen 30
Elaine 28: I would agree with Evan’s advice about therapy, not because there is anything wrong with you, but because someone from the outside who is trained to help others could provide you with valuable insights on how YOU can take control in your relationships, at least your part in them; and how you can avoid becoming so hurt in the future.
Beyond that, Elaine, I hope it’s not out of my place to suggest that maybe it would be a good idea for you to take a little time off dating, and instead devote that time to seeing men as friends and as regular human beings with struggles, hopes, motivations, etc., as all of us do. Take the pressure off yourself and off others from the “romantic relationship” side, and enjoy getting to know people (men and women) in a much more relaxed way. I think that will restore some of your faith in humanity, including in men, which would give you a much more positive view of dating in the future, and toward men in general. That can only provide good outcomes.
sarahrahrah! 31
@ Mia — #16
“And these were not blatantly sleazy player types – nobody ever would have guessed, bc they seemed like good guys that are real husband/bf material. In my case, they got to be with a woman way younger, more appreciative, and more sexually enthusiastic than their wives. It’s also very common to see middle aged married women let themselves go, get frumpy, stop putting out, nag the guy, prize the kids over him, and not make him feel appreciated. ”
Yeah. Shame on those wives who let themselves get all “frumpy” after having their alpha males’ enormous babies.
And you would know that they supposedly “stop putting out,” nag the guy, prize the kids over and not make him feel appreciated because…. the cheater told you these things?
Wow. An Ivy League education and you actually believe the most common lies that men tell women to get them to sleep with them.
@ 24, 25, 27, etc.
On Porn:
Tom, I wonder how you know that *all* men consume porn? I’m especially curious because I know of some enlightened men who choose not to use it and I also know some men who identify as sex addicts who go to support groups, etc. in order not to use it. For them, porn consumed their time, attention and relationships, had adverse consequences and often led to other sexual acting out that resulted in the loss of the partner they loved.
More and more studies (a balanced article summarizing some of them is here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201206/internet-porn-its-problems-perils-and-pitfalls ) are showing that porn is not only highly addictive, but that it’s use can negatively affect relationships.
Here is the thing about lust in general: it’s a sign of health to have some, but chasing it won’t quench it. In fact, the more you pursue, the greater the craving for it will become. Not unlike other addictions or how anger works. Therefore, it’s good to be prudent and try to reign in one’s passion (if they are strong already), rather than trying to free them up through the use of porn, strip clubs, etc.
Having been married to a man who was immersed in porn and affairs, I have to say that I think that it is healthy and normal for people to visually appreciate the opposite sex. However, if you get the impression that your boyfriend is getting a lot out of those visual exchanges and/or seeks to flirt with those beautiful women he encounters, pay attention to those signals and trust your gut over the advice of the article here. That may be one of the few clues you get if he’s very good at compartmentalizing his life.
Elaine 32
@Evan #29: Where are you getting your statistics? According to the Journal of Couple and Relationship Therapy, “Absolute figures on this are hard to come by, especially as people who answer surveys on infidelity are notoriously unreliable in their answers! Statistics identify that approximately 60 percent of married men and 50 percent of married women will, at some point in their marriage, have an extramarital affair.” In my personal experience I’d have to say it was closer to 90% with the men I have dated, suggesting that survey respondents do indeed fib on this subject. And just because you haven’t cheated yet doesn’t mean you won’t. You might not, but you don’t KNOW that. I also think the fact that almost as many women now cheat is a fascinating testament to how sick and tired we are of you guys having your cake and eating it too. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. And what a sad world we ALL now live in because you guys can’t keep it in your pants. Oh, and all six years of therapy did for me was to keep my hopes up that there were good guys out there. About 15 men later, I finally gave up.
Evan Marc Katz 33
@Elaine – I’ll take my statistics over yours:
http://womansavers.com/infidelity-statistics.asp
22 percent of married men have strayed at least once during their married lives.
14 percent of married women have had affairs at least once during their married lives.
I’ll also take my positive attitude over your negative one.
Quinn 34
@susan 24
If that’s your take on men and porn how are you ever going to find ‘the guy for you’? I’d venture to say, either a man watches porn or he lies and says he doesn’t. What’s the big deal? Why limit yourself to such an unrealistic and rigid standard?
Nicole 35
@Sarahetc…
Both Psychology Today and the field of Evolutionary Psychology have a lot of problems and their credibility is questionable.
Find a study in a medical journal the properly vets its sources and their methods, and that only accepts studies that have been peer reviewed. That would exclude Psychology Today.
What you linked to is not a peer reviewed study. It smacks of the same kind of garbage written by the doctor who claimed that vaccines caused autism.
Ruby 36
Elaine #
You wrote, “Every single man who cheated on me came across as the most honest, sincere, sweet, wonderful human being…sent me flowers, left me little notes, swore he’d NEVER do that to me, blah blah blah,” and later you said, “Would it KILL you to tell me you appreciate the effort I went to to look nice for you? I’ve never even had a BF ”like” something I’ve posted on Facebook let alone tell me they think I’m pretty.” You also stated that these same “nice” men have blatantly ogled other women, but told you that you couldn’t look at other men?
I’m wondering how the same men can be so sweet and sincere, yet never even tell you that you’re pretty, and then cheat on you. I don’t deny that there are cheaters and that they can be manipulative and sleazy, but most of the men you’ve dated?
Mia #16
I’ve got a news flash for you: middle-aged men can let themselves get plenty dumpy, and they can work long hours leaving their wives alone, and feeling unappreciated. But even if someone doesn’t look exactly the way they did 20 years ago, when you first married them, whatever happened to “until death do us part?” Good thing you finally realized that those married/LTR men were blatantly lying to you because they saw you as an easy mark.
Karl R 37
susan said: (#24)
“As for the comment about men who enjoy porn can still be great fathers and husbands. Yeah well, maybe, but for me that is a total dealbreaker. A guy who wants to get off on porn is not the guy for me.”
Good luck finding a man.
At a stadium event held by Promise Keepers (a conservative Christian men’s group), 53% of the men had viewed porn in the previous week.
Over half of evangelical pastors admit to viewing porn in the previous year.
I suspect these conservative Christian men don’t openly share this information with their girlfriends and wives. Your odds of getting someone who doesn’t watch porn is worse than your odds of getting someone who is willing to lie to you about it.
For the rest of the men, the likelihood of them watching porn is higher.
Heather asked: (#27)
“It makes me wonder well gee, what am I to you, chopped liver?”
I can’t speak for the men you date, but I can give you my own perspective. My fiancée doesn’t care whether I watch porn. However, I would rather have sex than watch sex. If we’re having sex often enough, I don’t watch porn at all.
Heather asked: (#27)
“I don’t ogle men in front of him, so he cannot ogle women in front of me. No double standards allowed in this establishment…”
You and I view “double standards” very differently. You choose not to ogle men in front of him, but you require him to not ogle women.
My fiancée is allowed to watch porn. I am allowed to watch porn. There is no double standard. She chooses not to. If she decides she wants to, I am quite willing to direct her to websites with large supplies of free porn.
If a woman feels that it’s okay for her to ogle men, but it’s not okay for her boyfriend to ogle women, that’s an example of a double standard. (The same is true if you reverse the sexes.)
Elaine said: (#28)
“Every single man who cheated on me came across as the most honest, sincere, sweet, wonderful human being…sent me flowers, left me little notes, swore he’d NEVER do that to me, blah blah blah.”
The examples you gave are completely unrelated to honesty, loyalty and integrity.
How does giving flowers imply that a man won’t cheat?
How does sending love notes imply that a man won’t cheat?
How does swearing to be faithful imply that a man won’t cheat?
Some traits which distinguish faithful partners from cheaters:
Integrity
Empathy
Forethought
Self-respect
Respect for others
Honesty
etc.
I agree with Evan (#29). You have horrible radar for determining whether a man is a quality individual or not.
Elaine asked: (#32)
“Where are you getting your statistics?”
Evan’s statistics are consistent with the “American Sexual Behavior” study, a survey of 10,000 people. It’s also consistent with a more recent survey.
Unlike your number (which attempts to predict future behavior over a lifetime), his statistics reflect what has occurred. I haven’t been able to find any information how they calculated future behavior.
Elaine said: (#32)
“In my personal experience I’d have to say it was closer to 90% with the men I have dated, suggesting that survey respondents do indeed fib on this subject.”
Your dates aren’t a randomly distributed sample from the population. They’re the men you chose as boyfriends. It’s very strong evidence that you tend to choose poorly.
Cheating won’t get you better boyfriends. Choosing better boyfriends will.
Mia 38
Sarah- it’s not that the cheaters came right out and said that , but it’s a common refrain you hear from married men in general. Also, if you simply take a look around, very few married women look good past 40 – it’s like they’re actively trying to look like bad, getting butch haircuts, packing on 50 pounds, wearing frumpy clothes. You can’t complain that your guy is looking at other women if you make no effort to look fit and decent. And while I wouldn’t do it again, nor have I done it recently , I never felt bad about the affairs I had when younger. I had faced a lot of rejection from single men my own age and it was nice to get attention and compliments and love letters from older married guys. I felt angry that their wives were no better than me, yet I was forced to live a lonely life of always going home to an empty apartment. It was and is grossly unfair. Evans fidelity stats sound way too low, based on all my friends’ and acqaintances’ tales of misbehaving attached guys.
Kenya 39
I totally agree, Not only is it “normal” for men to look at porn, so many men look at it that what would qualify as deviant behavior would be not looking at it.
Actually, according to the link below, Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men in their 20s who had never looked at pornography – but couldn’t find any:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/6709646/All-men-watch-porn-scientists-find.html
Goldie 40
@ Mia #38, yeah, I, too, have been propositioned by married guys, I mean who hasn’t? My experience has been that most of these men had really cool, great-looking wives that took good care of themselves. Of course the guy would come out and give a woman he’s hitting on all the right BS: my wife doesn’t understand me, we haven’t had sex in years (gee if I had a nickel for each time I heard that last one…) “This is actually good for your husband if you sleep with me, because then you’ll go home to him happy, which will make him happy in turn”… Everyone recycles the same old ridiculous lines that do not make any sense. So, no, I would absolutely NOT make this the wife’s fault. One hundred percent of the time, it’s the guy. Just like some people physically cannot steal and others can, some people can easily physically cheat, but the majority cannot. For most guys, cheating will never cross their minds no matter how bad their marriage is, they just aren’t wired that way. My ex had many flaws, but cheating just wasn’t one of them. It was something that just never occurred to him, period. A lot of men are like that. And for those that are not — that think nothing of physical infidelity — it’s not their wives’ fault. It is those men’s character flaw. Some people abuse alcohol and or drugs, some people abuse their wives, these guys screw around. That’s what they do. if they leave their wife and marry a hot younger woman, a few years down the road they’ll cheat on that hot younger woman too. I really have no tolerance for guys like that. Being propositioned by them mostly made me mad because I really dislike being used, it just gets my hackles up. Scumbags
Helen 41
Mia 38: “I never felt bad about the affairs I had when younger. I had faced a lot of rejection from single men my own age and it was nice to get attention and compliments and love letters from older married guys. I felt angry that their wives were no better than me, yet I was forced to live a lonely life of always going home to an empty apartment. It was an is grossly unfair.”
Hmm. Where to even start here…
1. I’ll try very hard not to be judgmental about your affairs, because different cultures have different viewpoints on affairs (e.g., the French, and Dan Savage’s points that Evan highlighted on his blog once). But if you want to go down that road, you have to recognize that an affair is an affair, okay? So there is no point in your being angry and ranting about how ugly the wife is. He is NOT going to choose you over her. Face it.
2. We live in America, not France. Much as you may wish it to be otherwise, affairs can ruin marriages and families here, and cause a huge amount of heartbreak to all involved. Ask yourself how comfortable you feel causing THAT to other human beings.
3. How do you know that you’re better than the wives of the men you cheated with? Do you know them personally? It seems that the only way you judge women, based on all your remarks, is by their looks. For the record, men do value character as well. And I’m almost certain that these wives are better than YOU in one key way: they are not nearly as disdainful toward other women, especially married and older ones.
4. You’re going to need to improve your self-esteem so that you don’t have to depend on men complimenting you to get your “fix.” It starts by being happy with who you are. Here’s a hint: you’ll start feeling better when you stop comparing yourself to others. Believe it or not, judging yourself as better than others (because you’re beautiful and everyone else is a dog) is not a sign of self-esteem. A happy and assured woman doesn’t feel the need to compare herself to others, whether for better or for worse.
5. You’re going to need to learn how to be happy living on your own. Everyone has had the experience of living alone in an apartment before. Make it a good experience. I’m sure you have the means to decorate it as you want and to fill it with the things you enjoy.
I do think you’re going to need to radically change your thought patterns in order to be happy with yourself and your relationships. Now, you’re only causing pain to yourself and potentially to others.
Tom 42
Fair enough Sarahrahrah I set myself up there for claiming that all men watch porn, however, I suspect the enlightened men you know who claim not to watch it know your opinion and told you a few porkies (so you’d think they’re enlightened!).
I think it’s reasonable to say that excessive porn consumption can have negative effects but as others have said Susan is probably deluding herself if she thinks she’ll find a man who never looks at it. Most of us use it like fast food; it’s ok now and again if used as part of a balanced diet
DinaStrange 43
Perhaps, what i am about to say is going to be disliked by the majority of the readers of this blog, but as a woman looking at “market” evaluations of human relationships i came to a conclusion that being a high end escort makes much more financial sense to a woman, than being a wife. Unless she is married to a wealthy man, with legal protection in case he decides to cheat/leave her for a younger woman or dies. The liability of raising children by oneself is huge, same as liability of time investment that usually goes into maternity/childhood. Forgive me for being so frank but as glue of trust that used to hold society together falls apart – this seems to be the only rational though politically incorrect choice of words.
Really, how low did we fall.
Rachael 44
Wow…pretty heated debate!
I’ll try not to puck apart others’ comments, but I have some strong opinions.
There is nothing wrong with legal porn. There is nothing wrong with the men who look at it! There is nothing wrong with women (myself included) who look at it!
Watching porn is not cheating, and it does not make you a cheater! I have never cheated though I watch JUST AS MUCH porn as any man i’ve ever been with. Even more than some…I have an underactive imagination. That’s my excuse
Beautiful women are beautiful. They are nice to look at…Looking at them makes men feel good. It even makes me feel good! Good for them those lucky girls! Hating a man for looking or hating the girl for being gorgeous doesn’t make you any more attractive. In fact…It might make you an ugly person regardless of how you look. hatred is ugly.
I was cheated on by my husband with my brothers girlfriend and I still manage to see good men for what they are and appreciate them. I will never PICK a man like my ex-husband. That’s on me. If I get cheated on again I will move on AGAIN and remain the kind of person I am. Becoming an asshole because I have encountered assholes just makes me an ASSHOLE. I don’t have a right to be an asshole just because someone else was to me. I take pride in being a good person and always will. Besides…I got to walk out of my marriage with my dignity intact. Though we are friendly and I will always wish him the best, my ex was kicked out with no dignity. He has made it clear to me even long after we separated how much he regrets what he did. I would never want to live with those kind of feelings. I don’t even want HIM to feel that way.
We are all human and it’s about time we all learned to accept people, stop making unrealistic demands and treat others how we want to be treatedand not how we have been treated.
Mia 45
Helen, you make some helpful points. However, i have done a million things alone and have an active social life and career, so its not like I’m unable to enjoy being aolo. I should clarify that when I make fun of a woman’s looks, it’s either because she has something I want that she didn’t work as hard as I am working to get, or she just has an unpleasant personality. I did know the wife of one married guy, and she was very spoiled and materialistic, which made doing her husband in the backseat of their car all the more fun. I think it can be hard for people who have not faced as much rejection to understand how much it can warp someone who is an otherwise loving, open person, accepting person who only wants a slightly cute, nerdy guy who loves them but just got rejected year after year, constantly, nonstop, and they naturally develop a selfish, cold streak. Some of us are too fragile to put up with this repeat abuse (not literal abuse) which is why i get why Elaine feels the way she does- yes, her radar is way off. But she is probably a really good hearted person who got the door slammed in her face one too many times and it caused emotional trauma. I disagree that her response should be cheating – she either needs a nerdy guy who has too little game to cheat, or should just give up at this point.
Karl R 46
DinaStrange said: (#43)
“as a woman looking at “market” evaluations of human relationships i came to a conclusion that being a high end escort makes much more financial sense to a woman, than being a wife.”
It also makes more financial sense for a man to become a major-league baseball player instead of a long-haul truck driver … provided you’re willing to completely overlook the difference in market demand for the two jobs.
In addition, you’re glossing over the difficulties inherent with an illegal job. Not only can you end up going to prison for doing the job, you also are unable to report your income, which leads to income tax fraud. The IRS gets suspicious of people who have wealthy lifestyles and no reported income.
It’s also not particularly compatible with motherhood. I suspect it’s difficult to maintain a career as a high-class escort while pregnant or nursing. Furthermore, if the baby’s father wishes to contest custody, he will have strong motive to report your activities to the vice squad. A prostitution conviction will go a long way to ensuring he gets sole custody of your child.
DinaStrange said: (#43)
“what i am about to say is going to be disliked by the majority of the readers of this blog,”
They’re more likely to find it completely silly.
Kenya, (#39)
Good find. I’d forgotten about that study.
Two of Us Dating 47
Such a tough subject! But I agree with everything you said. Just like I believe in evolution, it’s science, I believe men’s natural instinct is to spread the seed. BUT, I also believe you have control of oneself, and if you’re with someone who you love and are completely compatible with, then you should easily be able to make the choice of staying faithful.
David T 48
@Nicole 35
Psych Today is a popular press publication but most articles are written by folks who read peer reviewed literature in their field and write with that in mind.
Below are several links to peer reviewed literature on the impacts of porn viewing. They are mostly geared towards the impacts on adolescents, but some is towards adults and a lot of the gist is generally applicable.
You will find porn use is linked to: less progressive gender role attitudes, lower body image, less partner sex, depression, more sexual risk tasking, sexual harassment, a more casual attitude regarding sex, and selling sex. Whether these are negative depends on your particular world view. Causality is not clear in all the studies, but even correlations are troubling (porn use as an indicator of tendencies towards the above behaviors).
I am sure there is a lot of research if you actually choose to look instead of simply dismissing something out of hand because it does not fit with your world view.
@Tom
Back to the topic at hand, I agree that porn won’t be clear problem for everyone, but these studies maintain it takes a subtle toll even on healthy folks (See the 2008 Journal of Sex Research article below). Some fast food and lots of sugar now and then are not a clear problem for most people, but they have some negative consequences no matter how modest the amount.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20888038
J Adolesc. 2011 Aug;34(4):779-88. Epub 2010 Oct 2
In a Swedish survey 2015 male students aged 18 years participated. . . Frequent use [roughly 1 in 10 in the study] was also associated with many problem behaviors.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19628142
J Adolesc Health. 2009 Aug;45(2):156-62. Epub 2009 Feb 20.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19073838
J Geriatr Psychiatry Neurol. 2008 Dec 10. [Epub ahead of print]
Longitudinal analyses showed that early exposure [to pornography] for males predicted less progressive gender role attitudes, more permissive sexual norms, sexual harassment perpetration. . . Early exposure for females predicted subsequently less progressive gender role attitudes. . .
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18569538
J Sex Res. 2008 Apr-Jun;45(2):175-86.
A symmetrical relationship was revealed between men and women as a result of viewing pornography, with women reporting more negative consequences, including lowered body image, partner critical of their body, increased pressure to perform acts seen in pornographic films, and less actual sex, while men reported being more critical of their partners’ body and less interested in actual sex. .. Only 2% of users met the threshold of compulsive use
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186123
Arch Sex Behav. 2007 Aug;36(4):588-98.
. . .participants who reported to have more online pornography viewing were found to score higher on measures of premarital sexual permissiveness and proclivities toward sexual harassment . . .
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16232040
Cyberpsychol Behav. 2005 Oct;8(5):473-86.
Those who report intentional exposure to pornography, irrespective of source, are significantly more likely to cross-sectionally report delinquent behavior and substance use in the previous year. Further, online seekers versus offline seekers are more likely to report clinical features associated with depression and lower levels of emotional bonding with their caregiver.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12598058
Womens Health Issues. 2003 Jan-Feb;13(1):39-43.
Four out of five had consumed pornography, and one-third of these believed that pornography had impacted their sexual behavior. . . As the use of a condom was low (40%) when having anal intercourse, the consequences for the spread of sexually transmitted diseases should be considered.
Ruby 49
David T #48
What’s even more troubling to me are the studies on the same site that show an “…overall significant positive association between pornography use and attitudes supporting violence against women.”
Here’s another article on the subject. I recall going to the same Women Against Pornography presentation that Gail Dines refers to:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography
john 50
I myself love porn. I love women. Dressed. Undressed. Halfway undressed?
However, I LOVE women, and violence? Please. No place for that.
There are also men who are violent and abusive towards women that do not view porn. I’m sure that back in the olden days, when men were considered so misogynistic – I mean way before porn- and women were getting beat, it wasn’t because everyone was blaming porn. It’s because of an attitude.
priya 51
I dont understand why so many women are bother with men getting chemical high watching other women.I am in relationship and still watch attractive bodies be it men or women n yes i do get chemical high watching it.
Still-Looking 52
Karl R. @ 46 stated ” In addition, you’re glossing over the difficulties inherent with an illegal job. Not only can you end up going to prison for doing the job, you also are unable to report your income, which leads to income tax fraud.”
All income, legal and illegal, must be reported –
From IRS Pub 17:
Illegal activities. Income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Form 1040, line 21, or on Schedule C or Schedule C-EZ (Form 1040) if from your self-employment activity.
Leesa 53
in my experience, the only guys who think that “all guys look at porn” are the guys who look at porn. they justify their behaviour as normal. but as i understand it, it’s fairly normal for guys to look at porn up until the age of about 25. it’s like the belief i see amongst gay men who think they can convert any straight man, given the chance.
i have seen nothing but adverse behaviour from guys who are into porn over the age of 25, who are still into it into 40′s. they are frequently underperformers in the bedroom, they generally have less respect for women, and have more problems with women in long term relationships. they often are not aware that they have less of a respect for women and monogomy but other women who experience their energy are aware of it.
that’s just my experience.
sammi 54
This post is so true! But not just true of men, I am in a relationship with a guy and yet I get aroused and notice men daily! I enjoy porn from time time. It does not mean I will cheat on my partner as I am happy and love him but cannot ever say never, who knows further down the line, I would like to think I wouldn’t but life is funny. The point is women ‘hunt’ just as much as men do, I can freely admit to this!
susan 55
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I guess what I’m saying is that I just find the idea of my partner watching porn really offputting. I am realistic enough to know that most men do it at some point but I’m kind of with Karl here – if you’re happy with what you’re getting you’re less likely to be happy watching what you’re not.
Would I be happy to be with a guy who has a pile of magazines beside the bed, no. Would I want to watch a porn movie with a guy? no thanks.
Would i be happy for him to be going to strip shows whatever. No not really. Call me unrealistic and conservative if you like but no I’m not HAPPY about that at all. I ACCEPT that some of this stuff is reality of life. As I said I certianly appreciate the human form and would expect any partner to be the same. No more no less.
yes part of this is my own views on the pornography industry. But also, to me it does kind of feel like cheating. A guy who wants to get his rocks off watching a woman other than me is putting his bits (if not his brain) out there for someone else – real or imagined. I’m not saying its infidelity per se, but its too close for comfort for me.
Promisekeepers love the porn line. And I know that many Christian men struggle with this, but often becuase of the other restrictions and taboos around sex that they are facing (i have personal experience of this with a number of christian male friends). Thats a whole other issue.
but I also think it CAN be addictive, it CAN be a slippery slope and the really right wing bit of me says ”why would you even go there”.
I am amazed that virtually no other women have agreed with me on this.
Kathleen 56
Susan
I agree with you!! I was married for 20 years and my ex and I had a great sex life together. If he was into porn then it wasn’t around me. If he had been I agree it would have been very off-putting to me.
I read an article recently on MSN regarding how porn can damage relationships and while I can’t quote it, it seems pretty intuitive that it could induce hurt feelings in the woman. Thank you David T for referencing studies Throughout my life women friends have confided they are hurt by their guys blatant interest in porn when they are right there in front of him being ignored.
I definitely think it can become addictive and has the potential to erode and damage relationships.
Ruby 57
Susan #55
I agree with you also, although my objections have more to do with the industry itself. It’s a business that mistreats and objectifies women, it has extensive problems with drug use/addiction and the spread of HIV (lack of condom use), the participants keep getting younger, (many are teenagers), and come from abusive backgrounds. Even older girls are often presented as underaged. Just try googling “teen porn.”
Evan Marc Katz 58
a) This post was about men who still look at other women in all forms, not the merits of the porn industry. Does anyone want to suggest that good men can’t continue to appreciate the beauty of other women as long as they’re not acting in a highly embarrassing, inappropriate way? No? Good.
b) The fact that porn can become addictive and has the potential to erode and damage relationships makes it just like, say, alcohol. Tens of millions of people use it in moderation, and yet there are some that abuse it. You don’t ban something that provides pleasure just because it CAN be abused. Everything in moderation. This absolutist thinking is not helping anybody.
Pearl 59
I look at good looking men, so I dont see anything wrong with men looking at good looking women. I dont think that women and men are that different in the effect of a sexually attractive person of opposite sex. The difference is that there are more sexy women than sexy men.
Karl R 60
David T said: (#48)
“They are mostly geared towards the impacts on adolescents, but some is towards adults and a lot of the gist is generally applicable.”
More specifically, of the 7 studies:
4 studied adolescents and/or pre-adolescents
1 studied young men in Hong Kong
1 studied young women visiting a family planning clinic
1 studied men and women in the U.S.
Unlike you, I don’t consider the studies of adolescents to be generally applicable. For example, you note the correlation between porn viewing and “lower levels of emotional bonding with their caregiver.”
Given the ease with which parental controls can be installed on computer, I would expect a causative link between a caregiver who doesn’t bond with their child and increased access to porn.
David T said: (#48)
“Causality is not clear in all the studies, but even correlations are troubling (porn use as an indicator of tendencies towards the above behaviors).”
Regardless of the correlations, I would recommend that someone rule someone out becaue of the problem behaviors, not the correlation.
There’s a significant correlation between race and criminal convictions. Should women avoid dating black men because of this correlation? Or should they avoid dating men with certain criminal behavior regardless of their race?
More porn correlates to “less actual sex”
Looking at the one study of men and women, they indicated a correlation between increased porn use and less sex. I have actually observed this within my own relationship.
My fiancée has a couple minor chronic conditions.
As her symptoms increase, her desire for sex decreases.
As her desire for sex decreases, we have “actual sex” less.
When we have sex less (less than I would like), my porn use increases.
Not only is less sex the cause, but it’s a cause that arises from the person who doesn’t watch porn.
And the solution that we’d both be happiest with is relief of the symptoms.
Even the definition of a problem can vary from person to person. Twelve years ago, I dated a woman who wanted to have sex twice per month. I’d be willing to bet that she views a partner who wants “less sex” as a solution, not a problem.
More porn correlates to “pressure to perform acts seen in pornographic films”
Many of us see variety in sex to be a good thing. I personally believe that the kama sutra makes a far better source of novel sex acts than porn, but I wouldn’t reject an idea just because I saw it in a film instead.
The best sex partners (male or female) are the ones who are willing to try new things. Particularly the ones who are willing to try things (and even regularly perform acts) that don’t necessarily do much for them, but really turn their partner on.
I don’t perform oral sex on women because it’s a major turn-on for me. I regularly perform cunnilingus because my partner enjoys it.
No woman has ever bothered to ask me whether I learned about cunnilingus from an ex-girlfriend, from a sex manual, from the kama sutra, or from porn. I suspect it doesn’t matter that much to them.
I’m considered a good sex partner because I’m willing to perform a sex act that my partner loves, one which doesn’t do that much for me, and one which I first learned about from porn. Why do I suddenly become a bad sex partner if I request a sex act which I enjoy, which might not do much for my partner, and which I may have learned about through watching porn?
Variety is a good thing. This only sounds like a bad thing if someone fails to respect their partner’s boundaries. If someone doesn’t respect your boundaries (in sex or anything else), dump them for that reason.
More porn correlates to “lowered body image”
Regardless of whether you watch porn, it’s in your best interest to make your partner feel good about his/her body.
My fiancée’s body image has improved since we started dating (even though I watch porn). I make a point of regularly complimenting her appearance, both in general and specifically. My actions correspond to my compliments. It’s blatantly obvious (to her and others) that I find her attractive.
As my compliments increase, her body image improves.
As her body image improves, she feels more sexy.
As she feels more sexy, she’s more comfortable about being naked and having sex.
Enlightened self-interest at work.
If your partner makes a deliberate effort to make you feel better about yourself, it’s going to have an effect. And since my partner feels appreciated, that eliminates a major cause of affairs and divorces.
susan said: (#55)
“Would i be happy for him to be going to strip shows whatever. No not really. Call me unrealistic and conservative if you like but no I’m not HAPPY about that at all.”
My fiancée’s ex-sister-in-law was unhappy if her husband glanced at another woman. Her jealously was the cause of their divorce.
On the other end of the spectrum, I’m acquainted with a couple who have an open marriage. They find it acceptable that their spouse has sex with other people.
You need to find someone who you can be comfortable with, and who will be comfortable with you. You can’t influence what other people will be comfortable with, but you can influence what you’re comfortable with. If you’re eliminating too many options by being inflexible, you might want to consider changing.
susan 61
I hear what you’re saying Evan. I wasn’t meaning to merit or merit the industry. Just my opnion on how I feel about a man i was with going beyond ”appreciating the female form”.
The other side of this of course, is that many MANY women are quite ok with watching a fairly tame movie with some hot film star in it and ogling and fantastising but see this as ok becuase it’s not reality. maybe it’s another goose/gander thing?
john 62
KarlR #60
Very well said.
Hope 63
In addition to saying I agree, as usual, with EMK’s answer here, I also am compelled to chime in re: #40 and #41 (Helen and Goldie’s responses to Mia #38).
Goldie #40: I completely agree. And I’d also like to add: Mia, you must not live in New York, because I’m 32 and attractive but I’m constantly seeing women in their 40s and 50s who are seriously fit, well-dressed, charismatic, etc…and married.
Helen #41: I also pretty much agree, and I smiled at your reference to the French…I thought I’d add as an anecdote: a while back, the topic of affairs came up between me and my wonderful French boyfriend of 8 months. We were discussing a female French friend who is in a long-distance relationship, and wondering how it would turn out. I jokingly said, “Why doesn’t she have an affair? Isn’t that the French way?” And my boyfriend responded, in all seriousness, “Actually, no… most French people think affairs are more trouble and work than they’re worth.”
Et voila ; )
Paragon 64
@ Mia
“Evans fidelity stats sound way too low, based on all my friends’ and acqaintances’ tales of misbehaving attached guys.”
Again, the experiences of your friends are an unrepresentative sample of the population.
@ Kenya
“I totally agree, Not only is it “normal” for men to look at porn, so many men look at it that what would qualify as deviant behavior would be not looking at it.
Actually, according to the link below, Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men in their 20s who had never looked at pornography – but couldn’t find any:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/6709646/All-men-watch-porn-scientists-find.html”
I’m one of those deviants, lol.
I’ve never ‘consumed’ porn, but, I’ve observed it on a number of occasions, in the company of others who, incidentally, happened to be viewing it.
I have a high libido, but I can’t honestly say that the idea of viewing porn appeals to me.
@ DinaStrange
“Perhaps, what i am about to say is going to be disliked by the majority of the readers of this blog, but as a woman looking at “market” evaluations of human relationships i came to a conclusion that being a high end escort makes much more financial sense to a woman, than being a wife. Unless she is married to a wealthy man, with legal protection in case he decides to cheat/leave her for a younger woman or dies.”
Setting aside the questions of supply and demand that Karl alluded to, it is a niche solution limited in frequency not only by intolerable risks(that few are willing to abide), but also by a knowledge of sexual concessions that are implicitly indescriminant(ie. where no one is assuming clients
will tend to resemble Richard Gere).
“The liability of raising children by oneself is huge, same as liability of time investment that usually goes into maternity/childhood.”
Obvious solution – women can select a risk averse man(there are reliable indications), who sees them as an ‘optimal’ partner(again, there are reliable indications).
The problem with said solution, is that (since females are more sexually selective)male candidates are more likely to be satisfied with female attractiveness, than they are with his(unless a woman can justify the devotion of a high value man, by being a sufficiently high value woman – which is still problematic, as higher female selectivity ensures that there is always less men to go around who have been deemed of high value).
Still, as the limiting sex, the onus of compromise is upon women.
@ Hope
“And I’d also like to add: Mia, you must not live in New York, because I’m 32 and attractive but I’m constantly seeing women in their 40s and 50s who are seriously fit, well-dressed, charismatic, etc…and married.”
I think she was referring to those who aren’t, or are in some way hindering the sexual needs of their spouse – a valid criticism.
AnnieC 65
I occasionally look at good looking men. Rarely though.
I am SO glad I am not a man. Men with their sexual desires and immediate responses to women which they can’t control, must be so irritating.
Yes, men can control their concsious reaction (IE just because he wants to have sex with her, doesn’t mean he will) it’s the immediate reaction that is out of a mans control. There is not a woman alive that will really understand that.
I’m glad I am not a man. And when My man, gets a bit of a flush under the collar because a cute female talks to him, especially if she’s short, has a cute figure, big boobs, brown curly hair and she wears spectacles…well, I just sit there and smile. That’s my stud..he’s still got that lusty male within him.
I try not to giggle, but it does make me giggle sometimes. We women don’t know how lucky we are, to not be constantly distracted like men can be.
Having said all that, I do not support any commercialization of sex(strippers, prostitution, porn). I think these are very damaging long term for society. I have given my rather rational and well thought out reasons as to why this is wrong , to my partner, along with making sure he never feels “shame” over his feelings…and he no longer enjoys porn as much as he did.
So to the ladies out there, I support you whole-heartedly in your potential dislike of him deliberately seeking out sexual stimulation. I also think, you need to give that to him in a way that is natural to both of you, and you may end up with more of a loyal tiger on your hands, than you ever thought possible.
Men , are easily sexually conditioned, especially when in love.
Helen 66
Hope 63: Thanks for the real-life example. In that response from your boyfriend, though, the attitude there does seem different from here, where the very word “affair” often evokes a knee-jerk reaction that is very different from the calm answer your boyfriend gave.
Karl 60: I support the first part of your comments; studying adolescents only introduces many confounders into the studies. As for the rest… your comments convince me that YOU are a good and thoughtful person, but I’m less convinced when you use yourself as an anecdote to refute David T’s points generally. For example, the fact that you compliment your fiancee, and thereby improve her body image, doesn’t seem relevant to David’s point about porn causing worse body image in some people – both because they expect more and their partners expect more. Your complimenting your fiancee has no obvious relation to porn at all. It just shows that you’re smart about women’s emotional needs.
Mia 45: “when I make fun of a woman’s looks, it’s either because she has something I want that she didn’t work as hard as I am working to get, or she just has an unpleasant personality. I did know the wife of one married guy, and she was very spoiled and materialistic, which made doing her husband in the backseat of their car all the more fun.”
The thoughts you express here are quite immature, and will not make you feel better about yourself or help you toward your goals. First, what do you gain by insulting women who have what you want? Take bitterness and emotions out of the picture for once, and take the time to calmly observe what they might be doing right. Hint: it might not have anything to do with looks, and fixating on looks is not going to get you anywhere.
Second, it is not your place to punish another woman just because she is “spoiled and materialistic” by “doing her husband.” That only makes you worse than her. Also, it seems incredibly naive, angry, and thoughtless: if her materialism is not directed toward you, why should you feel any need to take revenge on her? It is none of your business. You only endanger yourself by getting involved.
You seem to have a lot of anger toward married women. At the same time, you seem to blithely accept whatever these cheating husbands tell you. I urge you to shed your naivete and focus on doing what’s right, rather than constantly giving in to your emotions. I guarantee you, this alone will improve your self-esteem.
Helen 67
Karl R: for clarification about my above post, I didn’t mean that your comments made me less convinced of your being good and thoughtful. I meant that using anecdotes to refute David T’s points was not convincing to me, as: 1) a sample size of 1 isn’t too convincing, and 2) you seem more analytical than the average man (the average human being, really).
Heather 68
@ Karl:
It’s not a matter of my REQUIRING my boyfriend to not ogle women in front of me; as EMK has said often enough, “men do what they want.” I just make it clear: sure, you CAN ogle women in front of me. That’s a choice you can make. And I can choose to dump your disrespectful ass right then and there for doing it.
I don’t really REQUIRE anything except respect. If I’m going to be disrespected, then the conversation is done. I choose to be respectful, and I ask that my man make the same choice. If he cannot do that, well then, we’re done.
I do agree with you in regards to the PromiseKeepers comments; most “Christian” churchgoing men I dated in the past, talked about how bad it was, porn, but then they’d just keep on watching it, yet still giving off the impression that they were such upstanding, godly men. Which is why I made the choice not to date Christian men anymore. I’d rather have my bullshit up front, and not covered in lies and hypocrisy that I see so often in the Christian faith. Expecting a guy to not ever watch porn, is akin to asking the sun not to shine. It’s going to happen, whether I like it or not.
Rachael 69
I just think (getting back to the topic of the blog) we women need to be able to trust the man we’re with to be loyal. Some male behaviours can be mildly annoying obviously. Just like women. IE. Walking around walmart with the bf once and we had split to grab some stuff. The guy goes out of his way to come get me. “I gotta show you something! c’mere!”. What does he point out? A hot brunette in the paint section dressed down in sweats, hair tied back, glasses, no makeup. She was a knockout! Was I annoyed? Mildly. Because I was busy shopping. The thing is though, when he saw this dressed down hotty in disguise the second thing he thought about was me, and how much I would appreciate her gorgeousness. I did…Even if it wasn’t worth it to me to walk halfway across the beastly wal-mart. Insert eye-roll.
When a man looks at and appreciates another woman he isn’t chucking you out the window. A man certainly doesn’t deserve to be hated on and feel like he’s a piece of trash for doing it. The way a man responds, and how he acts in the situation is what tells you he has integrity and appreciates you just as much and more than the one he’s simply looking at and admiring.
nathan 70
Heather 68: Given how you repeatedly say you’ll dump guy X on the spot, I get the sense that the respect you require includes an awful lot of hidden subcategories. There’s a difference between ogling women while on a first or second date with someone, and taking an extra look or two when you’ve been with someone for months or years. If you’re speaking about the former, I’m in total agreement. If you’re speaking about the latter, I’d say good luck with such an approach.
As for porn, a lot of the mainstream stuff is riddled with problematic gender stereotypes, which can negatively impact peoples’ love lives. In fact, given how prevalent porn is these days, I think it’s safe to say that at least some of those stereotypes have floated into pop culture, even amongst those who aren’t porn watchers. The idea that men can always “perform,” and should be able to for long stretches, is easily correlated with mainstream porn.
At the same time, so many of these conversations get tainted with shame, guilt, and defensiveness. Instead of rejecting anything labeled porn out of hand, I’d argue it makes more sense to consider the spectrum. Erotica. Feminist porn. Ancient sex manuals. NC-17 and R-rated movies. People need to get a lot more specific about what it is that they are offended by, or see as damaging. And to untangle that from what I would argue is a generalized shame and guilt around sex itself. Those most wound up about porn (users and non-users) tend to have an unhealthy connection to sexuality as a whole. That might upset a few people here, but I’m convinced it’s true. Those Christian men Heather speaks about – seriously unhealthy views about sex. The guys Leesa speaks about in #53: the same. In fact, odds are these men are addicted to mainstream porn precisely because they don’t know themselves sexually. And the teetotalers on the opposite end, who browbeat anyone who takes a sniff at something like porn, also tend to be in the same boat. Ignorant of who they are as sexual beings. What actually turns them on, and brings them alive sexually. As opposed to just what it is that they don’t like.
Evan’s post, and the many supportive comments are pointing to the fact that mere suppression of porn, or claiming some higher moral ground and being done with it, really doesn’t fly. Going further, the same can be said for suppressing or claiming a higher moral ground about looking at people who aren’t your partner, or flirting, or any number of other things. Doing this often means cutting off a life force that might easily be redirected towards a more healthy form of expression. And/or might actually be enhancing your relationship in it’s current form.
Evan Marc Katz 71
Always well-said, Nathan.
Heather 72
Nathan,
actually there are no subcategories with me: it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only. RESPECT. And I don’t care if it’s been a month, a year, or a lifetime. Do not ogle women in front of me. It’s rude, it’s immature. I understand that men do look, but it doesn’t need to be done in an obvious and disrespectful way. I notice good looking men but I don’t whistle and cat call and poke my guy and go, OMG, did you SEE that hottie?? Why? Because I choose to be a grown and mature adult and respect my guy and be sensitive to the fact that he’s trying to lose some weight.
And yes, I would dump a disrespectful man on the spot. As EMK and others have said, men do what they want. If I continue to let them behave the way they want to behave, i.e. show disrespect, then there’s a problem with me for allowing them to violate boundaries and not respect me and my feelings. I have very little time and patience for rude people. And I fully expect that I would be dumped for disrespectful behavior on my part. I’m not big on double standards. I expect my guy to call me out if I’ve annoyed him or disrespected him in any way.
As to porn, well see here’s the thing, I have heard that very justification that those who condemn it are forbidding a natural phenomenon, etc. I don’t buy it. I’d rather hear you guys just come up front and say what is really going on: “We like porn and we’re not going to stop watching it, really. If it really upsets you, depending on how much I care about you, I might stop or watch it on the sly.” You guys want to watch porn and there’s really not a lot we girls can do about it, if it bothers us. All we can do is let you guys know what our personal boundaries are, and go from there. My boyfriend knows that I am OK with some occasional porn or if he goes occasionally to strip clubs, but if it becomes more than occasional, then we may have to part ways, because I don’t like the fact that he’s out looking at other naked women.
I’m very, very blunt with men about relationships and my boundaries and it’s helped weed out a LOT of jerks and game players. And led me to a good guy who IS respectful, kind, and honest.
Karl R 73
Helen said: (#66)
“David’s point about porn causing worse body image in some people – both because they expect more and their partners expect more.”
You’re misquoting both the study abstract and David T’s statement. Both pointed out the correlation, and neither said anything about causation.
David T said: (#48)
“Causality is not clear in all the studies, but even correlations are troubling (porn use as an indicator of tendencies towards the above behaviors).”
I said: (#60)
“Regardless of the correlations, I would recommend that someone rule someone out becaue of the problem behaviors, not the correlation.”
Helen said: (#66)
“I’m less convinced when you use yourself as an anecdote to refute David T’s points generally.”
“Your complimenting your fiancee has no obvious relation to porn at all. It just shows that you’re smart about women’s emotional needs.”
David T acknowledges that we don’t know whether porn use causes lowered body image. There’s just a measureable correlation between the two.
He believes that it still serves a use as an indicator of these behaviors, which I’m disputing. As you pointed out, my being smart about my fiancée’s emotional needs has “no obvious relation to porn at all.” An indicator is useful if it’s correct, and it’s counterproductive if it’s wrong. I may be more analytical than the average person, but I’m not unique in that regard.
Furthermore, this is a case where people get to observe the actual behavior before they get to observe the indicator. My fiancée knew that I made her feel good about herself at least a year before she knew whether I watched porn. Personal observation is going to trump whatever the correlation indicates, particularly because the observation occurs first.
Helen said: (#67)
“using anecdotes to refute David T’s points was not convincing to me”
I wasn’t trying to refute his points using anecdotes. I was offering alternate explanations for consideration.
As far as I can tell, David T had two main points:
1. Porn has a negative impact.
2. Porn has troubling correlations with some negative tendencies and may serve as an indicator of those tendencies.
In my opinion, his first point is defunct because the only relevant study (discussing adults) doesn’t indicate causation, just correlation.
My anecdotes challenged his implication of causality, the notion that the associated behaviors were necessarily “troubling”, and that porn served any use as an “indicator” of these behaviors.
David T 74
I have not seen any browbeating here. I saw a dismissive and rude response to a post. The response implied there is no peer reviewed work pointing to porn use having negative implications in relationships between genders. I knew that was not the case.
I had been in a discussion some months ago regarding parental controls on iOS and Android, because I parent an adolescent. (BTW it is not as easy to put controls on those devices as one might think w/o significantly compromising their utility.) I had those particular references on hand. I was not interested in hours of searching to do more than point out that peer reviewed work on the topic is available. I leave it to you to look for it, though I will throw one bone your way.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cyber.2010.0477
This review points out that the body of work out there exists, and is difficult to use for a variety of reasons. Not surprising given that this is a new area. So that leaves us to us non-professionals to find our own way, and maybe rely on informal popular press review articles written by professionals.
I agree that some porn stereotypes have floated into pop culture. This is one reason I am concerned. This and a series of, yes, non-academic articles I read about a year ago (in wired? salon? I don’t recall and can’t find them unfortunately). One on adolescents was disturbing, and anecdotal reports I hear from and about teens in my area disturb me too.
I have seen some women here say “this item is on my personal checklist.” Many point out that makes their list of options a lot shorter and people should draw a line where it is right for them. Like Karl said, “You need to find someone who you can be comfortable with, and who will be comfortable with you. You can’t influence what other people will be comfortable with, but you can influence what you’re comfortable with. If you’re eliminating too many options by being inflexible, you might want to consider changing.”
Given the “nearly all men do this, This is the norm, therefore you need to be OK with it” pollyanna tone throughout this thread, it is important to encourage people to not disregard their boundaries solely for expediency without consideration for the less obvious implications of doing so. There are some good reasons for that particular concern and readers should know about them. Women should make a choice to change (or not) it being aware of the positive and negative implications either way.
I was going to give a blow by blow rebuttal, but others have touched on many points point and I have gone down this side thread too far already. There was one point that I think is rather important. Karl was dismissive of correlations.
Regardless of the correlations, I would recommend that someone rule someone out becaue of the problem behaviors, not the correlation.
It is less safe to ride with someone who regularly drives 20mph faster than the surrounding traffic even though that behavior only correlates with more accidents (after all, they might be a professional race car driver). It isn’t a problem until they have an accident but I would rather not be in the car when it happens. Two men go out with their respective girlfriends twice a week. One plans well in advance. The other calls up and plans only a few hours ahead. The latter man’s behavior correlates with someone who is less interested in his girlfriend than the other is interested in his own. The latter might have a job where he is on call every night, but in general that correlation is a legitimate reason for the girlfriend to be concerned.
nathan 75
David T – I don’t have any investment in defending mainstream porn. As I said, it’s filled with problematic gender stereotypes, not to mention it’s also a very limited view as to what sex looks like. Furthermore I agree with you that simply arguing “it’s the norm, be ok with it” doesn’t work. There are negative consequences. We would do well to closely examine what they are, and how to limit their impact in our relationships. The issue I was bringing up is that whenever porn gets brought up, a lot of folks lump many other things focusing on sexual acts into that category. And then dismiss it all as destructive. Which I’d argue is, itself, a destructive attitude.
Rachel – nothing in my comment suggested men should be able to do the jaw droppin’, OMG, cat callin’ bit. I agree with you that immaturity need not be put up with.
“As to porn, well see here’s the thing, I have heard that very justification that those who condemn it are forbidding a natural phenomenon, etc. I don’t buy it.” You misread what I was say, if this was a response to my comment. Porn itself, is merely an instrument. It’s not a natural phenomenon. What I was saying was that in just arguing for suppression, people tend to toss out both the instrument and the desire attached to it. The desire is a natural expression. And I think that natural expression often gets shamed by those who are highly fixated on getting rid of porn. As I pointed to above, I think mainstream porn is a lousy instrument for expressing this desire. But because the shame attached to main stream porn is rarely separated from the desire itself, we never get anywhere. Some men and women go on using mainstream porn on the sly. Others condemn them as perverts. Few consider exploring the diversity of other options out there for expressing that desire. And few want to move the conversation beyond “I think it (whatever “it” is exactly) sucks, and here’s why.” Or “I don’t like ‘it,’ but you can do ‘it’ on the sly.” Or “how dare you question my right to view ‘it.’”
You talk about not putting up with immaturity. I’d argue that the majority of Americans, men and women, are immature about sexuality and sexual expression. Maybe even the majority of humans, period. But I’ll stick with my own country here. We love to speak about these kinds of issues on a general level, but God forbid there are any real, detailed, sustained conversations about what constitutes healthy sexual desires, how do we truly work with and respect differences in needs between partners, and how do we untangle legitimate desires from unhealthy or damaging addictions to certain instruments. And by “real” I mean ones that don’t end up drowning in shaming and finger pointing. Hell, I only experienced this kind of talk myself in the last relationship I was in. Before that, I was basically a sexually repressed guy dating mostly sexually repressed women. End of story. Evan’s opened an important door here. Let’s not shut it down with a battle between simplistic “porn is good, porn is bad” kind of narratives.
nathan 76
Sorry Rachel, I meant Heather. And this last statement “Let’s not shut it down with a battle between simplistic “porn is good, porn is bad” kind of narratives.” was to folks in general, not Heather in specific. Thanks.
Joe 77
@ Heather #68:
You still don’t get it. You do require your boyfriend to not ogle other women. Sure, it’s up to him whether or not he does it, but that doesn’t make it any less of a requirement on your part, if you say you’re going to dump him if he does it.
Rachael 78
No problem Nathan. I figured you meant someone else when I read it.
I see a lot of talk about respect in correlation to a mans response to a beautiful woman. I would argue that respect is subjective. I don’t see it as disrespectful at all for my boyfriend to go out of his way to show me a beautiful woman. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Well, in my story it bothered me to the extent that I was busy and it probably wasn’t entirely important. I would have had the same reaction had it been anything else of equal importance.
Maybe i’m an exception to the unspoken rules of women. I like and appreciate beauty in all it’s forms. I am mentally (not sexually) stimulated by good looking men and women of all shapes, and colours. I enjoy analyzing what exactly it is about them I find beautiful. My man knows this therefore nothing about his behaviour is disrespectful or immature. I point out women and men to him on occasion as well.
I need a man to be loyal. That doesn’t mean I have a monopoly on human beauty in his world. If he shares that with me even better! I want to know what he finds beautiful and why. It’s a part of who he is. It’s a part of why he loves me.
I wonder why some seem to think it’s better to have it swept under the rug. I don’t understand how having behaviours continued but hidden suddenly makes such behaviours less disrespectful. As painful as it was I am very glad my ex-husband couldn’t hide what happened from me. I suppose he tried to an extent but I knew within a couple of weeks what was going on. He wasn’t exactly “practiced” at hiding things from me. Open honesty just seems a more healthy way to do things. If you don’t like a behaviour you have the option to discuss it rather than have it hidden because it infuriates you.
I don’t condone any sort of digusting behaviour, but I also don’t see the admiration of beauty as digusting. I don’t see (some types) porn as disgusting either. I see it as something visually exciting, and a tool to be used at appropriate times. Sometimes it’s helpful when a person is alone, it can be fun with another person. The generalized arguments about negative effects don’t relate to me. I’m sure there are negative effects on some people but like Evan said it’s just like alcohol. Some use it in moderation, some don’t. If I have sex an average of twice a day and my boyfriend and I use porn twice a month I think we’re probably doing just fine. If i’m alone once or twice a month and I personally use it I don’t see any problem there either. My self esteem is high and my sex life is perfectly healthy. Take it for what it’s worth but studies don’t apply to everyone.
Cat 79
I e-mailed this question to Evan some time ago & am quite surprised about all the posts! My question was more related to being out with my husband & him ogling other women, nothing related to porn. We actually use porn together & I don’t have a problem with him using it alone on occasion. My struggle has been with him watching/looking at other women when we’re out because I had never been with a man before that did it so openly. I’m sure they did, just much more discreetly. Like some other women posted, I feel disrespected when he does it & it hurts my feelings. We have had many discussions about it to no avail – even after I have told him it hurts my feelings he continues to do it. My problem is not with him noticing or glancing at an attractive woman, it’s looking over & over & over or watching a woman all night. It’s hurtful to me as it seems he is much more interested in watching other women than he is in me. I understand both men & women are attracted to others but I am much less of a people watcher than he is & even if I see a very handsome man, would not stare at him all night. I thought Evan’s explanation was a good one. I don’t think my husband is deviant or a bad person for doing it but I do wish he could curb it better to spare my feelings. I try very hard to not say anything to him about it any more because it gets me no where but it still hurts my feelings & makes me feel insecure & unattractive.
Helen 80
Rachael: actually I’m exactly the same as you in that way. I appreciate looking at beautiful men and women, but am not sexually attracted to the vast majority of them.
Intelligence and kindness are bigger turn-ons for me.
Helen 81
Cat, yours is a tricky situation. On the one hand, I believe in Evan’s wife’s practice of giving your spouse lots of “mulligans” if you believe that OVERALL, it is a good relationship that is worth keeping. But in this case, if he knows he is hurting your feelings and he keeps doing it anyway, that’s really not a good sign.
(hey, that’s marriage). So, mulligans abound. But we always pay attention if the other person is hurt by our actions, and we stop those actions. Have you told your husband how much it hurts you and how it makes you feel unattractive when he does that? If so, what is his response? That is very important.
My husband and I continually nag each other about the same things, and neither of us consistently does a great job of doing what the other requests
Kathleen 82
Cat, I can imagine how hurtful it would be if your man was watching another woman all night in front of you and he consistently did that when you were out. Is the issue he doesn’t care that he’s hurting your feelings after you express that?
I would find it difficult not to walk out of the restaurant if someone did that to me.
Ruby 83
Cat #79
When you’re out with your husband, he will stare at another women for the entire night? If you’ve discussed this, and he continues the behavior, that’s a sign that he isn’t really hearing you, or taking your pain and discomfort seriously. It also sounds passive-aggressive and controlling. Have you tried couples therapy? Due to his insensitivity, I have to wonder if there are not other issues in your marriage as well.
Karl R 84
Cat said: (#79)
“It’s hurtful to me as it seems he is much more interested in watching other women than he is in me”
There is another potential solution which may be easier for your husband to accomplish.
He seems to find it difficult to become more surreptitious about staring at other women. Perhaps he would find it easier to become more blatant about staring at and admiring you.
While it’s in my best interest to be discreet about looking at other women, I’ve also discovered that it’s in my best interest to be flagrantly obvious about staring at my fiancée.
nathan said: (#75)
“We love to speak about these kinds of issues on a general level, but God forbid there are any real, detailed, sustained conversations about what constitutes healthy sexual desires, how do we truly work with and respect differences in needs between partners,”
In some ways, these discussions get a bit easier on a partner-to-partner level (once you get past the fear of starting the discussion), because the scope is so much smaller.
An easy way to approach it is enlightened self-interest:
It is in our best interest to make our partner happy.
It is in our best interest for our partner to make us happy.
These goals become much easier to accomplish if both people openly communicate what they enjoy. I agree with nathan’s assessment (#75) that Americans tend to be sexually repressed. That means I have to express what I enjoy to someone who may not be entirely comfortable about hearing it; I have to solicit what she enjoys, even though she may not be entirely comfortable telling me; and I have to be the main facilitator of the conversation, even though I may be as uncomfortable as she is.
Fortunately, it gets easier with practice.
nathan said: (#75)
“how do we untangle legitimate desires from unhealthy or damaging addictions to certain instruments.”
That’s a lot more ambitious than I strive for. My concerns are consensual sex (which implies informed consent) and safe sex (which covers more than just STIs and unwanted pregnancies).
I know a laid-back, successful, (apparently) well-adjusted man who likes to be dominated by his wife. If he enjoys being chained to the bed, gettign whipped by his wife, and licking her boots, I’m in a poor position to determine that this is damaging to his mental health (or his wife’s mental health).
However, they do have to take precautions to mitigate the risk of injury or infection which I never have to consider.
David T said: (#74)
“There was one point that I think is rather important. Karl was dismissive of correlations.”
Your example (speed and car accidents) is hardly analagous, since rapid change of velocity is the cause of most injuries/fatalities in auto accidents.
I’ll give you a different example. Helen (#80) finds intelligence to be a turn-on. There is a correlation between intelligence and the amount of higher education someone has.
Helen has previously stated that some of the men she finds intelligent lack college degrees. She has also previously stated that she has met some individuals with advanced degrees who are not particularly intelligent.
If a woman shares Helen’s preferences, would you recommend that she select a man based upon his intelligence, -or- would you recommend that she select a man based upon his college degrees (because of the correlation)?
If intelligence is the important trait, I’d tell the woman to ignore the formal education and select a partner based on intelligence. It’s not that difficult to determine intelligence through conversation.
Similarly, it’s not that difficult to determine how frequently your partner wants sex -or- whether your partner respects your boundaries regarding specific sex acts -or- whether your partner makes you feel attractive and sexy.
What is the value of a correlation which has a chance of accurately telling me information that I already know about someone?
nathan 85
Karl – I pretty much agree with the idea that it’s easier to have these in depth conversations with one’s partner. And that enlightened self interest goes a long way in resolving things.
“I know a laid-back, successful, (apparently) well-adjusted man who likes to be dominated by his wife. If he enjoys being chained to the bed, gettign whipped by his wife, and licking her boots, I’m in a poor position to determine that this is damaging to his mental health (or his wife’s mental health).”
I would say that it’s more about unconscious or semi-conscious ideas and stereotypes coming from a lot of mainstream porn that I’m concerned with – and others also seemed to be concerned with. If an adult couple decides that they want to engage in S @ M, fetishes, or other forms of “alternative” sexual approaches, then I agree with you that I’m in no position to judge that. It’s the ways in which people tend to feel forced into, or simply unconsciously enact stuff from mainstream porn that is problematic. Because at least one partner in the situation tends to feel used or that their needs are being neglected. Which probably is not the case with the S @ M couple, if they both want to do what they are doing.
Karl R 86
nathan said: (#85)
“It’s the ways in which people tend to feel forced into, or simply unconsciously enact stuff from mainstream porn that is problematic. Because at least one partner in the situation tends to feel used or that their needs are being neglected.”
I’d say that’s more a function of ignorance (due to a sexually repressed culture) rather than porn. Unless you’re watching Monty Python’s Meaning of Life, sex education in school doesn’t discuss foreplay. Parents aren’t interested in teaching teenagers how to make their boyfriends/girlfriends orgasm. Schools aren’t interested in teaching them either.
If you don’t know how to please your partner, someone’s likely to end up being a bit disappointed.
nathan said: (#85)
“I would say that it’s more about unconscious or semi-conscious ideas and stereotypes coming from a lot of mainstream porn that I’m concerned with – and others also seemed to be concerned with.”
Could you give some examples of what you mean?
Erica 87
Women would be perfectly content with the same man forever, as long as he mixed it up in the bedroom a bit.
This is so grossly untrue that it’s simply embarrassing to read it in a dating blog.
S 88
I definitely buy the above, not because I think it’s the way men are – but because it’s the way I am too! lol
I have a massive wandering eye and struggle to stay monogamous. I too would love to sample a new guy every night. The only thing that keeps me from sleeping around is that as a chick, I get instantly attached to people I’m intimate with (I just can’t do casual sex), and the only thing that keeps me from straying is the Golden Rule – I wouldn’t want someone to cheat on me.
As for the flip side, I tend to pick guys who are pretty good at hiding their staring, or they learn to be lol. I do appreciate that my man is extraordinarily good at putting blinders on when we’re together. Other people have higher tolerance for guys looking, so it’s definitely a spectrum to negotiate, I suppose.
Evan Marc Katz 89
Actually, Erica, it is true.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200908/who-destroys-the-marriage-cheating-husband-betrayed-wife-or-other-woman
“When researchers decided to look at this issue to develop a Sexual Boredom Scale, they found that for men, sexual boredom was correlated with variety in partners (or lack thereof), while for women, it was more related to variety in activity. In other words, women were more likely to be satisfied by changes in the sexual what, while men (gay or straight) were more likely to respond to a changes in the sexual whom. It’s a simple, unavoidable truth almost everyone knows to be true, but few dare to discuss: variety and change are the necessary spice of the sex life of the male of our species. But even having an intellectual understanding of this aspect of many men’s inner reality doesn’t make acceptance any easier for many women.”
Apparently, it doesn’t.
Next time you choose to disagree with me, try coming to me with facts instead of feelings.
Sarah 90
It’s also been shown in primate studies that in numerous animal species the female “shacks up” with a stable partner, yet seeks to mate with an alpha male at the height of her ovulation cycle who will actually be the genetically superior bio-dad of her offspring. There are lots of studies out there to pick and choose from to prove one’s different points of view. Evan’s comments make perfect sense, and I believe the biological impulse for partner variety applies as well to myself and most of the women I’ve known whether they are in a commited relationship or not, not just variety of the act. It’s human nature I believe. Women are socialized against acknowledging their own non-monogamous feelings when they are partnered up and thus project that harsh self-denial onto their men and hold them to a standard of denying a natural biological impulse that they themselves feel as strongly and just won’t admit. I think in most people’s, women’s as well as men’s, alternate universe of having their cake and eating it too, they’d be able to act on any impulse with anyone at any time that felt good in the moment and still have love security at home. Like Evan said, it takes about 18-36 months for an offspring to be able to be cared for by the village, so to speak, and that’s when overarching feelings of desire cool off for both sexes. From the time we are born, we crave variety and stimulation. New people are exciting. They don’t carry the weight of all the hashing out of compromise necessary in any commited relationship and they don’t become part of the daily scenery of our lives and we can fantasize about everything they may or may not be or do. This doesn’t make them better than the spouse at home, just energetically more light and free and stimulating to the admirer due to the more superficial connection of just seeing them and not knowing them well, “warts and all,” like we do our partners. Just like anything in life – a partner, a career, a friendship, a hobby, etc. – you have to make an effort to keep your perspective fresh or you will be more likely to grow bored and dissatisfied with what you have and look for novelty as the only solution. That being said, temperamentally, some people of both genders are more on the extreme of novelty-driven, or conversely anxious about change in the familiar, and it’s the innate difference in levels of neurotransmitters in everyone. It’s not a crime, just an innate tendency in varying degrees, and both genders can suffer from boredom in relationships and stray mentally if not physically. I’ve also read studies that state women cheat almost as much as men, but don’t report it. Lke I said, there is a study for every point to be made. Actions in response to impulses define the person’s value of the sanctity of their relationship over temporary satiating of impulsive desires. Women who are on a very high horse need to climb on down and admit they sometimes feel desire to look at a hot dude as well and have some biological response to him and not be so insecure when their partner does the same and not project their own insecurities about themselves onto whom their partner may glance at. As long as they feel the guy is respectful towards them and not overtly ogling or behaving in a way that is clearly disrespectful to the relationship, then I don’t see what the big deal is. I’ve been married for years to a great, kind, attractive man, however when I’ve been away from him and encountered a hottie at work or in some other situation where interaction was either necessary or happening for whatever reason, and I can feel my pulse start to quicken, I always ask myself “Would I behave this way if my hubby were sitting right here next to me?” It’s a perfect way for both men and women to guage if their behavior is appropriate given the expectations of their particular commited relationship. It’s certainly variable. I know couples who both engage in flirtiness that I find overy and they know it’s harmless and enjoy that part of eachother’s personalities and are both incorrigible flirts, but ultimately harmless and faithful to each other. For men and women, as long as your partner isn’t a jealous lunatic around whom you can’t even make eye contact with a member of the opposite sex or have even be casually friendly to someone in a totally harmless way without receiving a prompt tongue lashing, I believe most people have a gut feeling whether they are simply being friendly to a hottie, albeit maybe uncontrollably feeling a little more peppy, excited or nervous, or whether they are starting to cross the line and behaving in a way that they known damn well would hurt their partner’s feelings if he or she were sitting right there and/or disrespect the commitment they made to their relationship. Another question to ask onself is “How would I feel if my partner were behaving this way?” This is clearly a guideline to try for actual interactions with other people, not for someone’s guy watching porn which clearly he probably wouldn’t do in front of his lady for the most part unless it’s a mutual thing that they do, but since there is zero chance of him ever meeting the girl in the magazine – big deal if he gets a little thrill that way. Suggest to your man that he apply the rule of pretending you are sitting right next to him when a hottie enters his orbit in the future. A decent man worth having will know in his gut when he’s crossing the line in his particular relationship and would honor your request for him to just consider it. If both people do that, more trust builds over time that allows harmless looking and less of a need to analyze or control the other one in those scenarios.
Erica 91
Sarah, I don’t understand, in light of everything you said, how do Evan’s comments make perfect sense? (And btw, it’s only this one comment I am disputing the validity of, not the entire article.)
Evan, I have also seen studies saying that were it socially acceptable and economically viable, the vast majority of women would have gotten impregnated by the same handful of alpha males.
I’ve also seen very different statistics on marital fidelity, with numbers hovering around 50%, and more married women cheating than married men.
Nicole 92
@Nathan, you do realize that people engaging in both sadism and masochism PREDATES the use of porn don’t you (and it predates those names, which were just given to people who wrote about them extensively.)
We blame a lot of things on the media when in reality, a lot of things have existed for centuries. Technology might allow for the more widespread dissemination of certain kinds of information (some good, some bad, and nothing that every person in the world will agree with).
However, none of us can SAY if the people who engage in “atypical” behavior got the idea from someone else or just discovered it organically.
And the consensual practice of what Karl described is NOT considered to be evidence of a psychiatric disorder nor is it proof that society is falling apart. People like what they like, and while the biology excuse if overused, it’s not as if it’s a complete fallacy that people are programmed a certain way, to achieve certain goals, although we aren’t ALL the same.
It’s funny what people assume are symptoms of an evil modern world that aren’t, and the proof that there have always been some people who like them easily goes back about a millenium.
Evan Marc Katz 93
Thanks, Erica. I’d love to see that study about the 2 billion women getting impregnanated by the 50 men. I don’t disagree that alpha males skew the end of the curve and are much more desirable than “average” men.
But when all is said and done and couples get married, men tend to want variety in partners and women want variety in sex itself. This does NOT mean that women DON’T want more partners, but rather that they’re more content in a healthy monogamous relationship than men, overall. And marital infidelity numbers aren’t at 50%. It’s closer to 25%, and men are still more unfaithful than women.
nathan 94
Nicole “@Nathan, you do realize that people engaging in both sadism and masochism PREDATES the use of porn don’t you (and it predates those names, which were just given to people who wrote about them extensively.)” Yes, I’m well aware of that. And I wasn’t blaming S @ M or other alternative sexual practices on porn. Nor was I saying they are symptoms of an “evil modern world.” I support whatever adult folks want to do that doesn’t harm others, and isn’t destructive to the partners involved.
Karl, ““I would say that it’s more about unconscious or semi-conscious ideas and stereotypes coming from a lot of mainstream porn that I’m concerned with – and others also seemed to be concerned with.”
Could you give some examples of what you mean?”
The idea that sex is a big performance is certainly reinforced by mainstream porn. I actually think that a fair number of guys get caught up in comparing themselves to porn actors, trying to measure up, and then feeling terrible when they don’t. And some women expect their guys to have the stamina and continuous orgasm giving power of these actors. In both cases, there’s a failure to remember, or even recognize, that the films are cut and pasted clips, that the “amazing skills” of the porn stars – male and female – are often an illusion.
Also, the idea that women absolutely love blow jobs and are just waiting to drop on their knees and give their guy a long, dramatic one. (Obviously, many women enjoy blow jobs, but it’s the way in which they are depicted that gets in guys’ heads. And, of course, some women really aren’t interested in any of that.)
You’re totally right that there is a major lack of quality sex ed for teens and young adults. And I’d also agree that people can learn from porn. I just think there is such a diversity of options available these days – some of which fall under the porn category, but aren’t as repetitive and stereotypical – that I’d rather advocate for people using other sources – especially for learning, if possible.
Paragon 95
@ Sarah
“It’s also been shown in primate studies that in numerous animal species the female “shacks up” with a stable partner, yet seeks to mate with an alpha male at the height of her ovulation cycle who will actually be the genetically superior bio-dad of her offspring.”
If that’s the study I think it is, then the primates were HUMANS, and it only observed a heightened sensitivity to more masculine photos, during ovulation.
A VERY different thing from what you are implying, and hardly conclusive of any behavioral tendencies.
@ Erica
” Evan, I have also seen studies saying that were it socially acceptable and economically viable, the vast majority of women would have gotten impregnated by the same handful of alpha males.”
Which attests to women craving *less* variety in partners, because their preferences tend to a (relatively)small population(ie. the ‘Alphas’) of the opposite sex(unlike with males – who enjoy a greater variability in partners).
But, the more important thing, is that men tend to marry as a longterm mating strategy – they marry to secure a long term mate.
Women, on the other hand, tend to marry for the long term benefits observed in security and committment.
So, men are more sexually motivated in marriage(and thus, a greater male desire for partner variability – as a function of their greater sexual motivation – is hardly surprising).
Marisa 96
Don’t want to get too overtly technical, but according to “The Red Queen” and Robin Baker’s “Sperm Wars”, both men and women are biologically programmed to cheat/seek multiple partners. Women desire to find the fittest genes for their offspring, whereas men desire to spread their genes to as many females as possible. Sperm are actually designed to compete with foreign male sperm in a woman’s uterus (contrary to popular imagery, they are subdivided into types: blocker sperm, fighter sperm, fertilizer sperm…the fighter sperm literally do nothing but swim around looking for sperm from competing males and destroy them with little packets of acid in their heads…they’re like little kamikaze pilots). One of the hypotheses for the female orgasm is so that a woman can become impregnated by the more attractive DNA of her lover than that of her stable LTR.
That said, while we may have evolved this way, we’ve also evolved highly developed frontal lobes that allow us to think in the future, analyze consequences, and project positive/negative scenarios. We are highly sentient thinking, feeling creatures who want companionship, emotional intimacy, understanding, acceptance and love. (That goes for men just as much as women.) We are in control of our urges and actions. I, for one, have no problem with my partner noticing other women or looking at porn. I just don’t want it thrown in my face or to have it become an unhealthy obsession (i.e., if you’re routinely looking at porn to the point where you’re uninterested in sleeping with me, it’s a problem). I like to look too and am attracted to other guys, may even imagine what it would be like to sleep with one of them, but I would never cheat or hurt my partner with it in any way.
Paragon 97
@ Marisa
“Don’t want to get too overtly technical, but according to “The Red Queen” and Robin Baker’s “Sperm Wars”, both men and women are biologically programmed to cheat/seek multiple partners.”
Not quite, as observed in your quote below.
“Women desire to find the fittest genes for their offspring, whereas men desire to spread their genes to as many females as possible. ”
Yes – since females are rate limiting, with lower reproductive potential, they are biased towards quality(in compensation), as opposed to quantity(which serves the high-rate fitness optima of males).
“Sperm are actually designed to compete with foreign male sperm in a woman’s uterus (contrary to popular imagery, they are subdivided into types: blocker sperm, fighter sperm, fertilizer sperm…the fighter sperm literally do nothing but swim around looking for sperm from competing males and destroy them with little packets of acid in their heads…they’re like little kamikaze pilots).”
There are also studies indicating that *less* attractive males have *higher* sperm-counts(which is what we should expect, as an adaptation to decreased mating opportunities – they need every mating to count).
But, the whole Sperm-wars hypothesis is largely unproven in humans:
“A notion emerged in 1996 that in some species, including humans, a significant fraction of sperm specialize in a manner such that they cannot fertilize the egg but instead have the primary effect of stopping the sperm from other males from reaching the egg, e.g. by killing them with enzymes or by blocking their access. This type of sperm specialization became known popularly as “kamikaze sperm” or “killer sperm”, but most follow-up studies to this popularized notion have failed to confirm the initial papers on the matter.”
“One of the hypotheses for the female orgasm is so that a woman can become impregnated by the more attractive DNA of her lover than that of her stable LTR.”
There are also studies indicating that the physiology of selective sperm-transport is not dependent on sexual choice(ie. it can be independently stimulated).
Robyn 98
Cat (#79),
Men are most definitely hard-wired to look at & appreciate women’s bodies. There’s no changing that hard-wired desire. As my granny used to say, “If a man stops looking, start planning his funeral”
But what a man can control and moderate is how he behaves while looking and what he does or says thereafter.
I find it a little troubling that your husband can’t bring himself to tone it down a bit – or at least make an effort in that direction. The fact that he deliberately continues a pattern of behavior that he knows upsets you is not a good sign IMHO. Smacks of inconsideration & selfishness on his part.
So…. why not turn the tables on him?
Go see the latest ultimate beef-cake movie (“Magic Mike”) and wax lyrical in conversation with him re: Channing Tatum’s “cheeks”.
Whenever you’re out & see a hot guy, make sure he sees you checking out the goods.
Next time you do a girls weekend away, go to Vegas & see the Chippendales (or NYC & take in a HunkMania show)…. and make sure you bring some good pics home with you. Maybe pin one up on the fridge so that he has to look at it every time he gets a beer
Or if you prefer something more classical, go for a postcard of Michaelangelo’s David.
Yeah, it sounds a bit corny & adolescent, but it could get the point across in a more light-hearted way.
And you just might have a bit of fun doing it.
AnnieC 99
@89
It isn’t true that a woman will be “perfectly content if a man varies it up in the bedroom”. She may be happier, but perfectly content is a huge stretch.
The main purpose of male sperm(the large amount of it that is produced) is not infact to impregnate a woman soley, but to seek out other male sperm and destroy it , to block the path to the uterous(from other male sperm) and to seek and attach to the ovum. If women were perfectly content with one man exhibiting varied behaviour, evolution would not have gone down this path.
The point of multiple orgasms in a woman, isn’t so one man can satisfy her in a variety of ways, but so that when she is ovulating she will enjoy a LOT of sex, with a LOT of different males, providing an increase in the strength of her offspring.
One of the most significant fantasies of women(especially those who know their own sexuality) is to be with several men at once. And I’m talking more than 1 or 2 additional players.
Neither men nor women are monogamous and we didn’t evolve to be, making any statement that claims men OR women will be “perfectly content” amount to ignorance. And many, many women lie about cheating. I am very skeptical about most of the research done today based on simple questionares simply due to the nature of human lies in this area.
A woman may accept her situation, she may be “more” content. But give her other options “without consequences” and without shaming and you will find a whole different beast on your hands, not that unsimilar to men.
It is said far, far to often by men to their own detriment, that women are perfectly content by what the man wants to believe(IE some men still ‘believe’ women are monogamous) than what is true.
Doesn’t really help anyone.
Paragon 100
@ AnnieC
” The main purpose of male sperm(the large amount of it that is produced) is not infact to impregnate a woman soley, but to seek out other male sperm and destroy it , to block the path to the uterous(from other male sperm) and to seek and attach to the ovum. ”
Why are people still circulating this nonsense?
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/1999/12/09-02.html
“The point of multiple orgasms in a woman, isn’t so one man can satisfy her in a variety of ways, but so that when she is ovulating she will enjoy a LOT of sex, with a LOT of different males, providing an increase in the strength of her offspring.”
Hmm…
“Four years ago, Wallen set out to do a well-controlled modern study with the collaboration of Elisabeth Lloyd, a professor of history, philosophical science and biology at the Indiana University.
Lloyd’s study of 80 years of previous sex research in her 2005 book, “The Case of the Female Orgasm,” debunked theories that there is an evolutionary reason for the female orgasm.
She determined the female orgasm is merely a byproduct of the male orgasm, as both sexes share the same genital nerve tissue in the fetal stage.
“It is perfectly normal not to have orgasms and there were lots of women in evolutionary time who had no orgasms and it had no impact on their fertility,” said Lloyd.
Current studies bear this out, according to the researchers: 98 percent of men say they “always” reach orgasm during sex, while women are “evenly distributed” between “always and never.”
Sexual Pleasure in Women Not Evolutionary
“It’s clear the male orgasm is strongly selected and it makes sense,” said Wallen. “If they don’t reach orgasm, they don’t leave offspring.”
To look at the question in reverse, women have a strong evolutionary selection for nipples — without them their babies would die, according to Wallen. However, nipples serve no biological purpose in men.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/sex-study-female-orgasm-eludes-majority-women/story?id=8485289&page=2#.T_rs9bOKkbA
More?
“Kinsey’s Sexual Behavior in the Human Female showed that, over the previous five years of sexual activity, 78% of women had orgasms in 60% to 100% of sexual encounters with other women, compared with 55% for heterosexual sex”
You were saying?
And, since I know your such a big fan of heterospecific, studies:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10209169
Erica 101
AnnieC (#99),
women’s monogamous nature is a myth akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. I think these myths keep getting propagated because the alternative is too unpleasant for men to contemplate. It would mean (gasp) that he may not necessarily be desirable just the way he is, and may need to work on it.
Paragon 102
@ Erica
“ AnnieC (#99),
women’s monogamous nature is a myth ”
No on here is claiming women are inherently monogamous, but rather that they are less motivated by a sexual variety in partners – which is true.
If it wasn’t, we couldn’t observe that they are *more* discriminating.
” akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. ”
And who says that?
Rachael 103
When a female orgasms her uterus and kegel muscles contract in a rhythmic and repetitive manner for up to several minutes. These contractions repeatedly “dip” the cervix into an area where semen pools at the top of the vaginal canal and create a bit of a sucking action drawing semen into the uterus.
I won’t argue studies or the evolution of the reproductive system, but the above is true and must mean something.
This discussion went down the rabbit hole eh?
Erica 104
” akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. ”
(Paragon) And who says that?
I hear one form or another of this belief practically all the time. See post 111 under the “a man is serious about you” blog entry, for instance.
Paragon 105
@ Rachael
“When a female orgasms her uterus and kegel muscles contract in a rhythmic and repetitive manner for up to several minutes. These contractions repeatedly “dip” the cervix into an area where semen pools at the top of the vaginal canal and create a bit of a sucking action drawing semen into the uterus. “
The thing to remember, is that uterine contractibility is necessary for cervical dilation prior to birth(where studies have found that gential tract stimulation, can help induce this response).
And, considering the surrounding ennervated tissue, I would regard orgasm as incidental *until* it can be shown, conclusively, as a significant contributing factor to fertility.
@ Erica
“ I hear one form or another of this belief practically all the time. See post 111″
“We men indeed do go a lot more by physical attractiveness than you women go by.”
As you can see, this is far from claiming that ‘women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness’.
Paragon 106
Sorry, Rachael – I was fatigued when I wrote that.
It is now (trivially)obvious to me that female orgasm has not evolved through selective pressures(whether it still may be a contributing factor to fertility, studies have as yet, failed to conclude), given that induced uterine contraction(associated with orgasm, and resulting from genital tract stimulation) is a necessary condition to cervical dilation(essential for live birth delivery).
Thus, the evolutionary nexus of this system is unequivocal.
AnnieC 107
@102
Actually I was contradicting Evan’s believe, that women are “perfecty content” with a man if he varies it up in the bedroom.
Simply not true.
Just because men may like “more variety” doesn’t mean women don’t either, it just means our motivations are different.
As I indicated, women were intended to collect sperm, as much as men were intended to spread it.
Men have got to stop believing what they want to about women, as much as women need to stop believing what they want to about men.
It’s a waste of time.
AnnieC 108
@101
yes, this is true.
Men often say to women, we must accept that men are sexually motivated and will be sexually attracted to other women, and that women must accept it.
They then often turn around and say comments such as “woman are naturally monogamous ” or “women are happy with one male partner who provides” or variations on this theme.
If this isn’t a classic example of men telling women who they are, I do not know what is(While they complain all the time, that we tell them who THEY are).
It’s ironic.
I accept male sexuality as it is, but I choose a man who controls it.
Men have not yet learned to accept female sexuality, therefore they also do not look for a woman who can control it.
They go for what they “believe” is sexually acceptable to them, IE a virgin, or a woman who has sex straight away proving she loves it and he can be happy with her.
Paragon, you do yourself no favours by not understanding female sexuality and believing what you want.
@100
You said
“Sexual Pleasure in Women Not Evolutionary ”
Everything in our nature is evolutionary otherwise it would not have happened.
We evolved.
Why these traits occured, may be up for debate from an evolutionary perspective, but the fact that they DID evolve, isn’t up to debate, unless one is a creationist.
Try again.
Marisa 109
Paragon, I think I may have lost track of what point you’re trying to make. That said, I never claimed (I don’t think) that women are programmed to seek out AS MANY partners as men, rather that they are also programmed to seek out multiple partners/have affairs, rather than commit to one guy forever after. The sexual strategy for women is (supposedly) to find a stable, LTR and then cheat on him with a lover or two with better genes. Cuckholding, essentially. The male strategy is to spread it far and wide to as many females as possible.
I don’t think this “business model” as it were is very flattering to either gender. Not much about evolutionary biology is particularly flattering.
In “The Red Queen” the authors theorize that marriage/monogamy was a mating strategy implemented by MEN. That’s because otherwise one highly successful alpha male who controls a large amount of resources can have a harem, leaving many men spouseless, childless, heirless. Therefore the adoption of “everybody gets one someone” so that less desirable males weren’t left out in the cold.
I’ve also read studies (forgive me for not finding and linking to them, but they should be easily Google-able) that say that a two-parent system raises more healthy, more successful offspring than a one-parent model. Hence, men are also programmed to pair-bond with one desirable female to be present to ensure the passing on of their genes while, perhaps, slinking around seeking a little fun on the side. Fathering as many children as Soloman is, apparently, not the point of the male reproductive system. Supposedly, there’s so many sperm in two samples of male ejaculate that we could repopulate the earth. (Or something along those lines.) Why do you think there’s so many? The theory is competition with other males, not because such abundance is necessary. (It’s clearly not.)
There’s also been studies about the role of the neurochemical vasopressin and its influence in how strongly males, in particular, pair bond with females. I’d look those up — they’re fascinating. Males with low amounts of vasopressin are less likely to commit.
Anyways, after babbling on about all that, I have to say that, despite the dictates of biology, I’m still in Evan’s camp. I think both men or women–regardless of what the studies say or past experiences hold true–should assume their partner is innocent until proven guilty. Trust that he is going to be faithful and not sleep around on the side just because he noticed another woman out of the corner of his eye. We’re animals, but we’re also conscious ones, and just because we have biological urges dosen’t mean we’re obligated to act on them. I have so many male family members and friends that are wonderful husbands and fathers. They would be horrified at the notion of cheating on their wives. I guess we just have to take each person as they come, really.
Ciao.
Rachael 110
Just like the male reproductive system, the female system works in complex ways to maximize reproduction. They do what they do for a reason.
I may not be learned in theories of evolution, but the human body, bio/anat/physio are my areas of expertise. The female reproductive system’s subtle complexities (from the cyclical changes in mucosa, to the dilations of the cervical opening to orgasm) all aid reproduction in their own way. Each individual function may not be necessary, but together they are just as much a part of our reproductive success as the more straightforeward male system.
Two of Us Dating 111
Once again, as always Evan, you are so accurate in the assessment of the situation. The post deals with two issues: why we look and why we cheat. I have done a lot of reading on both subjects, and not to plug anyone, but two excellent books that deal with these two subjects is “Brain Sex” and “The Moral Animal”. Men are visual creatures. We are a product of tens of thousands of years of development, most of which we spent are lives hunting for food and spreading our genes. This has led to the development of extremely strong visual skills and an innate desire to procreate with as many women as possible. Whereas the morals of society have changed over that last several centuries we cannot change who and what we are. So whereas we have learned to be monogamous we can not help but to admire the beauty and physical appearance of females. It is in our nature to do so.
As far as the second issue of why men cheat, I can only use myself as an example. I am on my second marriage. Both my wives are beautiful looking women. In both I still admired the beauty of other women. In the first marriage however I acted on it and had affairs with several women over the course of my marriage. This marriage lasted 13 years. In my second marriage I still act on my desire to look at other women, but I don’t even consider taking the next step. The reason for this is simple. It takes 3 people to have an affair. When one is not getting all their needs fulfilled they look to triangle in a 3rd person to fill the void. My first marriage was filled with “voids”. My second has none. So while I still look and admire the beauty of other women I have no desire to act on my natural impulses. Men will always be attracted to beautiful women. You really can’t change that. But looking is no threat to the women in a man’s life, unless there is a lot missing from the relationship. Thanks once again for the post.
Paragon 112
@ AnnieC
“Actually I was contradicting Evan’s believe, that women are “perfecty content” with a man if he varies it up in the bedroom.
Simply not true.
Just because men may like “more variety” doesn’t mean women don’t either, it just means our motivations are different.”
Are you sure it’s variety women crave, and not ANOTHER man?
Let me rephrase that.
While it may superficially appear that female preferences are tending to be highly variable over time, I think this is more a case of varying opportunities over time.
Does the same happen for men?
Absolutely.
The difference is, that men tend to crave a variety in partners at any given point in time – because they are not as sexually selective as females, they have a difficult time splitting hairs between the tall, svelte, leggy brunette with the tight ass, or the shorter, voluptuous blonde with full breasts(indeed, they want BOTH!).
On the other hand, this same degree of inclusiveness fails to present in female sexual preferences(which are predictably narrow).
So, while the typical male is going to desire an INCLUSIVE variety of sexual partners at any given time, the selective nature of females is going to tend to limit their considerations to a single partner at a time – the very BEST one they can acquire(where a female desire for OTHER sexual partners is actually speaking to a desire for a BETTER partner).
“As I indicated, women were intended to collect sperm, as much as men were intended to spread it.”
Actually, females have NOT evolved a capacity to ‘collect sperm’ in equal measure to the male capacity to ‘spread it’.
And this fact is THE fundamental, biological difference that forms the evolutionary basis for sexual dimorphism(and the many characteristic sexual ‘differences’ that we observe).
“Men have not yet learned to accept female sexuality, therefore they also do not look for a woman who can control it.”
They don’t?
Wouldn’t that, in fact, explain men who PREFER virgins?
“They go for what they “believe” is sexually acceptable to them”
So, you are saying these ‘beliefs’ are spurious?
Could you please elaborate on that point?
“Everything in our nature is evolutionary otherwise it would not have happened.”
Yes, but NOT everything that evolves, evolves through evolutionary SELECTION(which was the implication of that statement, given the context of the study, and it’s findings).
“Why these traits occured, may be up for debate”
That is, indeed, the crux of the debate(what else do you suppose we are arguing?).
“from an evolutionary perspective, but the fact that they DID evolve, isn’t up to debate”
No, it isn’t – so why are YOU pretending otherwise?
@ Marisa
“Paragon, I think I may have lost track of what point you’re trying to make. That said, I never claimed (I don’t think) that women are programmed to seek out AS MANY partners as men, rather that they are also programmed to seek out multiple partners/have affairs, rather than commit to one guy forever after. The sexual strategy for women is (supposedly) to find a stable, LTR and then cheat on him with a lover or two with better genes. Cuckholding, essentially.”
But cuckolding(female strategic pluralism) ISN’T motivated by an advantage to MULTIPLE sex partners, but rather the advantage of covertly mating with a higher quality mate(while the long term – sexually inferior – partner continues to provide for HER offspring, none the wiser).
The evolutionary justification of this becomes evident when we consider that males can impregnate MANY different females in a very brief interval, for which females can only be impregnated by a SINGLE male.
“In “The Red Queen” the authors theorize that marriage/monogamy was a mating strategy implemented by MEN. That’s because otherwise one highly successful alpha male who controls a large amount of resources can have a harem, leaving many men spouseless, childless, heirless. Therefore the adoption of “everybody gets one someone” so that less desirable males weren’t left out in the cold.”
All of which SUPPORTS the dynamic I am alluding to – namely, that females tend to sexually select for a SINGLE male at a time(in this case the *singular* hypothetical alpha) – they best one they can get, at any given time.
“I’ve also read studies (forgive me for not finding and linking to them, but they should be easily Google-able) that say that a two-parent system raises more healthy, more successful offspring than a one-parent model.”
That is bi-parental advantage(I am very familiar, no citation necessary).
“Hence, men are also programmed to pair-bond with one desirable female to be present to ensure the passing on of their genes while, perhaps, slinking around seeking a little fun on the side. Fathering as many children as Soloman is, apparently, not the point of the male reproductive system.”
The reason why we have pair-bonding males, is because ecological pressures – during some distant evolutionary past – selected for bi-parental advantage as a necessary component to a stable sexual population.
Pair-bonding males are thus preserved through various mechanisms – but primarily through an acute disparity in short-term mating opportunities which incline(aided through the kinds of inherited biological factors you allude to below) less physically attractive males to demonstrate an alternate function of value to females(such as an investment in the survivability/success of her offspring), in exchange for mating privileges.
All of which explains why monogamy is in acute decline throughout developed world populations – since the survival/reproductive success of offspring are no longer dependent on a 2 parent dynamic, evolutionary pressures have relaxed selection for it.
This manifests in a (increasing)proportion of females who no longer value these benefits(implicit of monogamy) sufficiently to consider those men who are most inclined to offer them(ie. average, or below-average looking ‘nice-guys’, who are bereft of short-term mating opportunities).
@ Rachael
I am not saying that female orgasm does not aid in fertility(this may, in fact be the case – but will have to wait on confirming evidence).
I am only saying that, given what we know, it could NOT have evolved that way(ie. it could not have been selected for because of a conferred fertility advantage – which, as I have already explained, is a *hypothetical* NONESSENTIAL benefit to a system with an ESSENTIAL function in reproductive viability).
Marisa 113
Paragon, why do you think a woman would stop at just one alpha lover? Let’s say a woman, in a LTR with her “stable” beta partner, suddenly finds herself with the choice of mating with both Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp (absurd, I know, but bear with me). She might very well decide that she likes them both and sleep with them both and let the best alpha male sperm win. They’re both highly desirable bearers of DNA for her future offspring and, after all, whichever sperm “wins” and fertilizes the egg is of less consequence to her because the resulting offspring will bear HER genes, regardless.
Which brings me to another point. You’re certainly entitled to your preference in partner, i.e., if you prefer a woman with less sexual experience or who is a virgin, you’re not wrong to want that. It’s a perfectly viable reproductive strategy. But–and I’m not saying you’re doing this–but let’s not say that women who accumulate more experience or partners or who want to explore their sexuality more freely than that are in the wrong. I do feel compelled to point out that the male desire for virgins you bring up comes from a fear of not passing on one’s DNA to future generations and so attempting through various methods to limit womens’ reproductive options. One of those methods has been to make it socially unacceptable/shame women who are more exploratory with their sexuality. That’s the only reason, because a woman of same reproductive age and health who is not a virgin is just as fertile as one who is. Look at how males versus females have been punished for adultery in the past; women have been punished far more strictly than males. That’s probably because they bear no such reproductive anxiety; their babies are always their babies.
Just as there’s a spectrum in regards to sexual orientation, there’s also probably a spectrum in terms of the expression of sexuality within all those demographics. Gay men are noted for accumulating more partners than gay women or straight women, for example, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t gay men who become monogamous for many years or gay women who want to sleep around and not commit–or straight women for that matter.
When faced with changes in their enviroment, it’s been shown that many species are also able to adapt very quickly. We may say that these sexual mores/desires are deeply ingrained in us, but that also underestimates how very plastic we are. I’d argue that while our biology is the same, the advent of effective birth control in the 60′s (let’s leave STDs out of it for the moment) marks a definite “change in the environment” and both men and women have/are going to adopt new reproductive strategies because of it.
Also, as a side note, you say that a 2-parent model no longer produces more effective offspring (or something to that effect) and so is largely irrelevant, but I very much believe the contrary. Not to say that single moms (and dads) can’t raise wonderfully successful and healthy children–I’m sure they do–but that, by and large, what still produces the best kids/adults is having both mom and dad around. I’d love to see some facts and figures to the contrary, if you have any.
I’m getting away from the science here though; it’s just my opinion. I’m perfectly happy to be wrong. Cheers.
Rachael 114
@paragon
I get what you’re saying. I feel like you’re not getting what i’m saying.
Aside from releasing an egg and flushing the unused nothing else about the female system is necessary taken individually. Working in harmony they increase chances of conception. Example: An ovulating female (ovulation brings together many factors) with a high ability to achieve orgasm is far more likely to concieve than a female in early cycle who can’t orgasm. Both could likely concieve. Not impossible.
I just think while men are evolved and “programmed” to spread cast amounts of sperm, females are evolved to increase chances of conception and programmed to welcome male advances. Not to “collect” sperm as others have said but rather to welcome advances, increase opportunity for mating, and create a hospitable environment for conception. All while selecting the fittest males available.
So, while males look and have urges to stray to spread seed…Females demure and stray to increase oppirtunity and strength of genes.
On a side note I just woke up and i’m having a hard time putting my theory into words.I hope it comes across. I think it’s valid and worth contemplation.
Rachael 115
Pardon the typos and to clarify: “programmed to welcome male advances” should translate to welcoming the advances of the more “fit” and genetically stronger males.
Straying not to collect copious amounts of sperm, but straying to collect “better quality” sperm
In addition (something that just came to mind) women are also programmed with a very deep and strong desire for children. Many will simply leave a man unwilling to provide them. This desire may not be a necessity but it sure does help!
Paragon 116
@ Rachael
“ I get what you’re saying. I feel like you’re not getting what i’m saying.
Aside from releasing an egg and flushing the unused nothing else about the female system is necessary taken individually. Working in harmony they increase chances of conception.”
I need to clarify.
The proposed fertility advantages of orgasm results from induced uterine contractibility – this, however represents a secondary non-essential function to the system.
The ESSENTIAL function of induced uterine contractibility is cervical dilation prior to live birth(a capacity for which couldn’t have evolved without it) – so this is where we should expect the evolutionary nexus of uterine contactibility lies.
Taken from this perspective, orgasm must be deemed an incidental benefit to the system.
“ Example: An ovulating female (ovulation brings together many factors) with a high ability to achieve orgasm is far more likely to concieve than a female in early cycle who can’t orgasm. ”
Interesting – do you have any links to scientific findings?
“I just think while men are evolved and “programmed” to spread cast amounts of sperm, females are evolved to increase chances of conception and programmed to welcome male advances.”
Yes, but which males?
The SINGLE best(deemed) specimen available to them at any given point in time.
Unlike with males, females accrue no benefits by considering any male beyond the apparent *best*.
Again, Sperm-wars in humans is DEBUNKED.
So, there remains little justification for the idea, that HUMAN females should favor more than one male.
@ Marisa
” Paragon, why do you think a woman would stop at just one alpha lover? Let’s say a woman, in a LTR with her “stable” beta partner, suddenly finds herself with the choice of mating with both Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp (absurd, I know, but bear with me). She might very well decide that she likes them both and sleep with them both and let the best alpha male sperm win.”
Again, the idea of sperm wars in humans, has been debunked(did you read the link I posted?).
” Which brings me to another point. You’re certainly entitled to your preference in partner, i.e., if you prefer a woman with less sexual experience or who is a virgin, you’re not wrong to want that. It’s a perfectly viable reproductive strategy. But–and I’m not saying you’re doing this–but let’s not say that women who accumulate more experience or partners or who want to explore their sexuality more freely than that are in the wrong. I do feel compelled to point out that the male desire for virgins you bring up comes from a fear of not passing on one’s DNA to future generations and so attempting through various methods to limit womens’ reproductive options. One of those methods has been to make it socially unacceptable/shame women who are more exploratory with their sexuality. That’s the only reason, because a woman of same reproductive age and health who is not a virgin is just as fertile as one who is. Look at how males versus females have been punished for adultery in the past; women have been punished far more strictly than males. That’s probably because they bear no such reproductive anxiety; their babies are always their babies. ”
You are absolutely correct in your assessment – these prejudices/double-standards exist because there are double-standards in nature(and thus are justified, in evolutionary terms).
The term we have for this is ‘sexual conflict’.
“When faced with changes in their enviroment, it’s been shown that many species are also able to adapt very quickly. We may say that these sexual mores/desires are deeply ingrained in us, but that also underestimates how very plastic we are. I’d argue that while our biology is the same, the advent of effective birth control in the 60′s (let’s leave STDs out of it for the moment) marks a definite “change in the environment” and both men and women have/are going to adopt new reproductive strategies because of it.”
A fair assumption – and it may be speaking to the reason why developed world populations are experiencing a trend towards sub-replacement fertility(ie. they are not adapting, quickly enough to changing environmental pressures).
“ Also, as a side note, you say that a 2-parent model no longer produces more effective offspring (or something to that effect) and so is largely irrelevant, but I very much believe the contrary. Not to say that single moms (and dads) can’t raise wonderfully successful and healthy children–I’m sure they do–but that, by and large, what still produces the best kids/adults is having both mom and dad around.”
I don’t know what standard you are using to measure the ‘best’.
Evolution is only sensitive to factors contributing to reproductive success(ie. it isn’t concerned with independent ‘quality of life’ outcomes).
“I’d love to see some facts and figures to the contrary, if you have any.”
We don’t need studies, statistics will suffice:
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/living/out.of.wedlock.births_1_out-of-wedlock-unwed-mothers-wedding-dress?_s=PM:LIVING
Here, short-term mating interactions are demonstrating increasing reproductive success.
This is saying something very significant, about an evolutionary shift between successful mating strategies(and is actually what we should expect, given that relaxed ecological pressures in developed world populations can no longer sustain the competitive, bi-parental, advantages that favor long-term mating).
Paragon 117
@ Marisa
“Let’s say a woman, in a LTR with her “stable” beta partner, suddenly finds herself with the choice of mating with both Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp (absurd, I know, but bear with me). She might very well decide that she likes them both and sleep with them both and let the best alpha male sperm win. They’re both highly desirable bearers of DNA for her future offspring and, after all, whichever sperm “wins” and fertilizes the egg is of less consequence to her because the resulting offspring will bear HER genes, regardless.”
To clarify, while females may, under *very* exceptional circumstances, find it difficult to choose between two prospects of apparently equivalent quality, such a rare crisis of choice does not speak to any evolutionary justification for favoring multiple sexual partners within a brief reproductive interval(at least where mating is motivated soley by physical attraction, which is the assumption here).
This is because, many assumptions of sperm-competition don’t seem to hold in humans for a variety of reasons(such as penis
morphology – which appears adapted to displacing sperm from previous copulations), rendering many precepts of sperm competition rather moot.
Again, I am not denying that there are special cases where women really DO want to mate with multiple, high-quality, mates within a brief window of time.
I am simply arguing, that this has not evolved as an adaptive
behavioral trait in any obvious way(oxytocin is also another mitigating factor, that would seem to limit this kind of behavior – whomever she chooses FIRST, she is liable to get ‘hooked’ on).
Which is why, outside of hypothetical special case scenarios, I would suspect it rarely presents.
Rachael 118
After I went back and read what you wrote to others in your prior post I felt like I mostly agreed with what you said about females requiring (or not) multiple males. I wasn’t saying they do. I was leaning towards fitter males over less fit males.
I really don’t want to search out a link to prove that ovulating females have a higher probability of conceiving. If I really have to I will, but it’s a very basic truth. All I was trying to say is if all the positively contributing factors of conception come together at once conception is more likely.
I apologize I won’t put in the effort it takes to prove myself right on the orgasm thing. I have seen video of it happening when I was in school. Fascinating to watch and it looked mechanical and purposeful.
Rachael 119
Ok I conceded and did a quick search but I found mostly articles on fertility websites. I found one on “scientific american” that referrenced it in passing but that particular article didn’t provide much info.
Interestingly I discovered the cervix also “dips” during ovulation. I suppose rendering an orgasmic dip useless during ovulation.
I’m not trying to prove it necessary so it’s unimportant. I just think it’s cool how through the selection of evolution we retain very subtle functions that aide the continuation of species. Really fascinating stuff.
And I apologize to all for being so off topic. I love discussing physiology and biology.
Paragon 120
@ Rachael
I agree.
However, something that frequently gets lost in these kinds of discussions, is that even traits with a justification in some distant evolutionary past, are not always adaptive in a prevailing environment(the conditions by which they became fixed in human behavior, no longer exist).
And that is something that I think is important for everyone to remember, especially with respect to behavior – as we have a tendency in trying to rationalize persisting biases using justifications that have not held throughout evolutionary time.
Cat 121
@ #111 Two of Us Dating…I appreciate your post & your honesty. I am the one that asked the original question to Evan. It came from a place of hurt because I have never been with a man before like my husband that likes to admire other women so much. I’m sure men in my past have but they must have been a lot more discreet about it. He just seems so much more interested in watching other people than engaging with me. I’m not sure I will ever understand it but I have been trying. Noticing or glancing is one thing, but looking over & over & over I find disrespectful & hurtful. We have had lots of conversations about it & he has curbed it somewhat. But it has hurt my self esteem quite a bit. Not to be conceded but I am an attractive woman & have a lot of men looking at me when we go out. In my opinion, 9 times out of 10 the women my husband is looking at are women I don’t consider to be more attractive so I don’t get it. Have you ever heard the saying “why go out for a hot dog when you have steak at home” – that’s kinda how I look at it. At this point I feel like men are never satisfied with their woman, in the looks department anyway. It doesn’t matter how beautiful or hot their wife/gf is they still always want to look at other women & check out the goods. He tells me all the time how beautiful I am & how no other woman means anything to him but his actions don’t necessarily match that. So I guess my question is – why if my husband has a wife that’s a 9.5, does he constantly check out other women that are 7′s & 8′s? To me, it makes me feel insecure, even though I know I shouldn’t be. I have been trying for probably over a year now to understand it but I am still baffled. We have a great relationship other than this issue but I will say we had a very rocky start where he didn’t treat me well for a long time & involved him lying to me a lot. I believe in my heart he is a changed/much better man, but at the same time I think we are still building trust, so maybe that is where this all comes from? That I still don’t trust him? I do think our past has affected me greatly so maybe I am not totally over it. Even though it’s been 2 years & now we’re married….Any more thoughts Evan?
Karl R 122
Cat asked: (#121)
“why if my husband has a wife that’s a 9.5, does he constantly check out other women that are 7′s & 8′s?”
7s and 8s are nice to look at too. So are some 5s and 6s. I wouldn’t call 1s and 2s attractive, but some of them are interesting to look at too.
Some your insecurity is probably due to lingering trust issues. I certainly sounds like some of it is coming from ego. Why is it significant that he’s staring at a 7 instead of a 9.5?
Nicole 123
@Cat…at what point has your husband gone home with any of these women?
You don’t trust your husband b/c he has functioning eyes. Aside from the fact that there are lots of things that attract women to men besides basic looks, if you do think it is so important why are you threatened by women that you think aren’t as good looking to you?
But basically, I’m just confused about why you think your husband will cheat on or leave you b/c he likes to look at other pretty women. I think that men who cheat like to keep it SECRET, so I don’t think he’d be sizing up his future mistress in front of you.
You husband chose you. Your husband married you. Your husband tells you he thinks you are beautiful. Yet you continue to be insecure b/c he still thinks other women are attractive too? Would it really make you feel better if your husband all of those women were ugly hags. How old are you that you need to be the hottest one in the room?
Cat 124
@Karl & Nicole, I think you are both right. It is a trust issue. Our beginning was rocky & he did cheat on me & lied to me for a long time, almost 2 years. So I think deep down it is all about trust. I know he wants me to trust him but I guess I just don’t 100% yet. Maybe someday I will. For me it’s not an ego thing, it’s respect. Like I said, glancing at an attractive woman is one thing, but lingering or looking over & over is another & it hurts my feelings. I don’t have to be the most attractive woman in a room, but I would like to be the woman my husband is most interested in & a lot of times that’s not the case. It really has nothing to do with looks, it’s more about being interested in me when we’re out. Looking at me, talking to me, engaging in “us”…not constantly looking around the room like I’m not there. And it’s not important about the 7′s & 8′s vs a 10, but that part confuses me & that’s why I brought it up. I guess because I’m not a person that checks out men that I don’t find as attractive as my husband, so I don’t understand it. And again, it’s not about glancing at a 7, it’s about staring at a 7 that I find hurtful & disrespectful, even if I’m not threatened by her. We have come a long way together but in the end we have a long way to go I suppose. Maybe in my subconscious I am worried when he’s looking around the room that he’s looking for something else! The past & what he did has greatly affected me in a lot of negative ways. It’s hurt my self esteem & self confidence & made me have a general distrust for men. He was “that guy” for many years. The guy that slept with/dated 4 different women at the same time, the guy that didn’t commit, the guy that was always looking for his next victim & that guy that was a player so maybe all that still plays a role in how I feel about things. Yes, he chose me & married me but who’s to say that he won’t revert to his old ways. The story is way too long to go into, let’s just say I have good reason to feel the way I do. So yea, when I really think about it, it is a trust issue. And we have to work on it somehow. I will say, that for him to rebuild trust with me, him staring at other woman all the time isn’t a good way to go about it. I don’t think he realizes that. So hopefully that clears up why it hurts & bothers me so much that he stares at other women, regardless of how they look.
Paragon 125
@ Cat
“ He was “that guy” for many years. The guy that slept with/dated 4 different women at the same time, the guy that didn’t commit, the guy that was always looking for his next victim & that guy that was a player so maybe all that still plays a role in how I feel about things.”
I’ll go against the grain here, and suggest that your husband is not a typical guy.
Perhaps that’s why you married him?
And while you sound disappointed with his behavior, you shouldn’t be surprised.
Nicole 126
@Cat, since there was real cheating in your case, I think a counselor might be able to help you rebuild the trust. I don’t know how people do it. I do think that if you stay with someone who violates your trust it can’t always be a thorn in your side, or the weapon used in an argument.
Again, he has functioning eyes and that won’t change but I guess I’m a bit confused as to why you married someone that treated you like that for so long (not looking at other people but lying and cheating on you…again, the two things aren’t connected in most cases but I can see how they are in your world) What is up with that? I mean, why enter a marriage where you never feel secure?
B/c ultimately you cannot live in fear and be insecure. And I just think that if you are the best you that you can be (and beyond just the superficial ways) and make someone feel loved, then if they still leave you, it wasn’t meant to be and you are better off.
Magdalena 127
Oh girls! Fight fire with fire no matter what Evan says. Men most certainly DO get jealous, jealous, jealous. We have what they want and can get easily if they behave. If they don’t – back to the hunt for you, boys!
It’s the golden rule…she with the gold rules. And we’ve got it between the legs..the most coveted gold for these assholes. So, when your men disrespects you (in FRONT of you, not behind you)…do it right back.
Example, I dated a guy who just couldn’t stop talking about women’s breasts. I don’t give a damn what planet or biological force fielded cave you come from, if you can’t bit your tongue – you’re just a dick! So, I turned the tables and began drooling on every “package” on every guy and then I’d make sure to mention it. I always make sure to call them “sweetie”, too. Men love the pre-cursor as they have no control.
Make no mistake about it, girls. We hold the cards. We can get laid much, much easier than men. And this shit about men not being monogamous…ahahaha…well, me and my best friend constantly talk about our fantasy men who we’d love to bone us – and none of them include our husbands. She has two lovers right now and her husband doesn’t know.
Guess how fast the wolf shut the fuck up?
I don’t know what millenia Evan thinks this is; but women are extremely sexual. We’re just more proprietous about it. But wind me up…then watch where it gets you, boys! I can be just as rude as you. Then I’ll move onto the next guy until I find one who adores me and has enough self-control to stfu! But until then, I will stay with the swinin’ dick I’m with now.
Karl R 128
Magdalena said: (#127)
“me and my best friend constantly talk about our fantasy men who we’d love to bone us – and none of them include our husbands. She has two lovers right now and her husband doesn’t know.”
“I can be just as rude as you.”
You’re proud of your ability to be rude. You admire your friend’s ability to cheat on her unsuspecting husband.
It sounds like you have the “swinin’ dick” you deserve.
ErikkaT 129
One thing I don’t understand; Why does it seem like its all on the women, like its soley our responsibility to keep a relationship going?
Men need to be held accountable too.
Also,
I don’t have a problem with the man that I’m with looking at other women. I’ve said it before–there are thousands of women out there who are better looking than me.
What I had a problem with was a first date I had with a guy who checked out every woman in the restaurant we were in. Every woman but the one he was sitting accross the table from…ME!
That was our first and only date.
Maddy 130
Interesting article – Evan I really like a lot of your stuff and agree with the majority of it. A lot of the articles have really helped me to understand men more (even though I’ve grown up around 2 brothers and have a close relationship with my dad). I understand and totally agree with a lot of what you say. I esp like how you say to treat men well as I used to believe in following “The Rules” Ellen Fein etc… and honestly that got me no where!! I basically missed out on 4 years of what could have been an amazing love life or dating life…and it was just boring blankness coz I had to be totally passive and wait for a guy to do EVERYTHING…should have listened to my brothers when they told me it was rubbish and no guy was going to want to do that. Then I finally decided to do the opposite of what I was doing – give a bit more of a response, treat a guy well, build them up listen to them, show that I was interested – and have just met the most amazing guy of my dreams who treats me like a princess! However one thing I have always struggled with is feelings of jealousy but I was recently comforted by your articles that said we need to trust men 100% and that our trust in them helps inspire them to remain faithful. I love this and i believe in this and it’s the best way to live. However the man I’ve just started dating is a very sexy handsome young pilot – who has a million diff girls commenting on his fb page everyday…and a lot of attractive female friends including a long term ex girlfriend. I’m not threatened by them as he has made it very clear to me that he adores me and I’m confident in his feelings for me. Even our mutual friend said to me “I don’t know what you’re doing but he is so smitten with you I’ve never seen him like this before”…so it is comforting and reassuring and I feel very secure. However long winded point I’m getting at here is this – your article above basically gave me a less comforting message than I was getting from all your other posts…I got the message “MEN ARE NOT MEANT TO BE MONOGOMOUS – WHEN THEY SEE AN ATTRACTIVE WOMAN THEYRE TEMPTED TO CHEAT AND ESPECIALLY IF THEY WORK AWAY A LOT”…. well this does bother me a bit as a future with this man could mean being the wife of a very handsome pilot who will be away a lot and get a huge amount of temptation. Yes I can trust 100% but your above comments almost imply that I would be silly to trust 100% because of such a HUGE ongoing temptation. How is a girl meant to give full trust when you say it is SOOOO HARD for a guy to remain faithful ESP if they’re the object of desire of the women they find attractive???
Evan Marc Katz 131
See my comment #26 on Are His Fantasies Different Than Yours:
“Of course men are biologically capable of monogamy. That’s why there are hundreds of millions monogamous men around the world. Just understand that it’s a CHOICE. What he gains from monogamy is greater than what he gains from screwing around and ruining the relationship. The fact that he’ll forever be attracted to other women? Who cares? He chooses YOU. If you freak out that he still desires other women, but doesn’t act on it, you’ll have a rough time with men. This is basic stuff. Accept it, pay attention to your man’s character and commitment, and choose wisely. You can have monogamy – but not if you’re always freaking out about monogamy.”
cat 132
@Magdelena….LMAO at your post…loved it. You sound a bit tainted or bitter about men, but I still appreciated your post.
rik 133
the way u talk, it sounds like men are like animals! and i dont know how ur not ashamed.but in my opinon its false. God created humans to ripen their brains and be above animals. And a man that reached that mature stage,has a goal in life and is happily married wont think twice about other woman. His heart is satisfied. And will never cheat ! guaranteed.
Brynn 134
This article made me very uncomfortable, especially when mentioned that when a man looks at another woman in front of his woman, it is just her insecurities. I believe that yes there are attractive men and women out there, but when you are oggling over them in front of your partner, you are not respecting your partner, period. This is the reason why it bothers women to see their partner doing this to them. It has become so socially acceptable for men to objectify women in this way, that when she confronts him she is seen as “possessive” and “insecure,” when really she is just expressing that his actions are hurting her. To me this is a major inequality between the genders when it is seen as “okay” for a man to eye a woman up and down. It is saying it is okay for men to objectify women this way. I have had this argument with men, and it became very obvious to me that the ones who thought this action was okay, were the ones who did not show any respect to their partners. They either had a past of cheating, or lived a very promiscuous lifestyle. From my own experience, the men I dated who did this to me were the ones who cheated. It’s common sense, treat your woman with love and respect and it will make both of your lives happier. Eyeing a woman up and down is in a sense the gateway to cheating. If it’s okay to treat your partner this way, then what else can you get away with.
Michael 135
“ I also think the fact that almost as many women now cheat is a fascinating testament to how sick and tired we are of you guys having your cake and eating it to”
That pretty much summarizes women’s excuses on eveything they do; they ARE in fact more honest/moral/whatever but MEN made them do it. Women cheat more now because they CAN. Because they are in the work force and have the same access men did and do. If you are going to cheat ELaine or your friends are at least be honest about why you do instead of excusing yourself by blaming men. It doesn’t really recommend you as a functioning part of society that SHOULD be working or running companies or countries now does it?
Michael 136
Looking and ‘cheating’ are two different things. And being blatant and just looking are two different things too. Any man knows the difference. That said I enjoy looking at women and they for the most part enjoy being looked at (thus the gyms, haircuts, trainers, botox, fashion). And guess what? Women enjoy looking too. When I have a nice suit on, or a tight tee shirt (or tight slacks) women look. We’re human beings. If you expect to date or marry someone and have them never look at or be attracted to another person of the opposite sex again you should work on your own security levels, not stifle their sexuality.
Michael 137
Maddy “, treat a guy well, build them up listen to them, show that I was interested – and have just met the most amazing guy of my dreams who treats me like a princess!”
Finally a woman who gets it. As a guy, if you play by The Game rules you set up a scenario where you get rewarded for being distance/mean/controlling and rejected/punished for being nice/caring/romantic. As a girl who plays the rules, you attract those very same men. Like any guy (or girl) I am attracted to surface looks at first too but it is amazing how far a girl listening, being interested, building me up instead of tearing me down gets to me. I think we’ve let a lot of insecure Gamze Guys and Rules Chicks ruin the dating game for the rest of us.
Michael 138
“ And we’ve got it between the legs..the most coveted gold for these assholes. So, when your men disrespects you…”
Is there any reason to even go on after that sentence?
Michael 139
“women’s monogamous nature is a myth akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. I think these myths keep getting propagated because the alternative is too unpleasant for men to contemplate. It would mean (gasp) that he may not necessarily be desirable just the way he is, and may need to work on it.”
The myth about women not caring about men’s attractiveness is one perpetuated by women not men in order to perpetuate the myth that women are some how deeper, more complex, more caring and more monogamous. The only time women reject any of those premises is when it suits their purposes, or when they need to, as a few women here do, blame their desire for sex outsid eof their relationship or multiple partners of good looking men or great bodies on men.
Kathleen 140
Michael 139
Based on the lousy pictures that most guys post on their profile online it appears to me that many guys don’t think we women are visual or care about their physical attractiveness.
None of the women I know perpetuate a myth that a mans attractiveness isn’t important. I don’t understand the point you are trying to make in your last comment
cat 141
@ Brynn (134)..I think you are spot on. In my case, my husband was the guy that was unfaithful to girlfriends for years before he met me. And actually he was unfaithful to me in the beginning. He was married young, cheated on & hurt by his first wife & when they divorced definitely sowed his oats out of hurt. He was single 16 years before we met. So I think a lot of his old “habits” died hard. I always knew he loved me, but he still did the ogling in front of me before he knew how badly it hurt me. Now, after discussions I think he finally gets it & has stopped the behavior. Does he still notice beautiful women, sure, but he doesn’t dwell on them or do it blatantly. I have appreciated his efforts. I do believe however, that Brynn is right that generally, men that ogle other women are the cheaters, players, misogynists out there. Michael is right also, staring at other women & glancing are 2 different things. My husband had a lot of “bad habits” when we met & I think we’ve finally gotten over them all. He was clueless about boundaries in a real relationship & has come so far. As much as I love him I would not say our journey has been for the faint of heart but definitely worth it. We are in a great place now & he is totally a different & better man than when I met him!
Magdalena 142
Michael and Karl R:
Karl R: Thank you. My swingin’ dick bends to me – as a good man should.
Michael: Do you feel threatened that women have power over you? Tough luck.
Magdalena 143
@ Cat: Why does the truth sound bitter or tainted? It’s just the way it is. Look, everyone wants to pussy foot around things and I am just declaring the truth sans the diplomacy. Fact: Men would fuck a tree if it were mossy and soft enough. Fact: Women would, too, if it had the right sized nob on it with the right phallic shape.
What I dislike about this thread and others like it, is that it downplays the sexuality of women and basically plays on the antiquated idea that “that’s just the way men are girls. Accept your position as a good asexual “thing” and go iron his shirt.” Well, screw that! We’re not sexual? Please allow me to enlighten this situation.
When it comes to sex, men and women are both using the chimpanzee part of their brains and anything goes. Men haven’t cornered any market on being the masters of sexual fantasy. Women are off sneaking a peak of the other “sausage”, too. Now, I hear all you primitive gorillas pounding your chest, but the TRUTH is; you don’t want to believe that your women want to fuck other men the way you daydream about other women, and yet you believe that it’s okay for you to do so with any and all other woman – even if it is all in the mind. Now, picture that your woman thinks the same things about men that you think about women. (I assure you that no matter what society has taught and conditioned her to say; she does dream of big black dick, Asian dick, and, yes – doing that young, good-looking pizza delivery boy).
Here’s what this thread is really about: Jealousy. The jealousy that women have that their men would look at other women and fantasize when they know they’re doing the same thing. It’s a double standard on both sides. Men want to play but will beat a woman half death (oh yes, it’s been done!) if she does the same thing..or even hints at it. And women don’t want to play second fiddle. We want to be the only gorgeous one in your eyes. But that’s not reality. In fact, it’s rather provincial and puritanically hypocritical.
Schopenhauer, for all his curmudgeonly misogyny once said; “Men are born indifferent to one another while women are born natural enemies”.
He was right. Women will claw the heart out of a woman she doesn’t even know for something THE MAN IN HER LIFE has done with that woman..even if it’s just a lustful glance.
The same is true for men. You all are indifferent to one another, and much less jealous than women….UNTIL (and this is the part Schopenhauer either ignored, or didn’t wish to cop to) another man sticks his dick inside your woman or you even think of it. Then you beat your big ol’ JEALOUS gorilla chests, and even though you’ve cheated maybe 20 times on your lady – you’re ready to kill the guy just from the mere thought.
“I can, but you can’t because I am a man and say so” went out in the 50′s. Move ahead or remain stagnant.
The truth will set you free, people..it won’t taint you!
Cat 144
Magdalena…I agree with your posts, but it’s the tone of your writing that sounds bitter, maybe that is not your intention. I agree that women are as sexual as men & I also agree with you that most of us women do have fantasies similar to mens’ which is something Evan disagrees with based on some study. His study showed women would be happy having sex with the same man the rest of her life just with a variety of positions but men wanted different partners. I disagree – I think most women would love to have sex with a different hot, well-hung man every night, just like most men would love to bed a different hot woman every night. I don’t see any difference there. And I agree most women would ogle hot naked men with hard bodies any time if given the chance or if it were socially more acceptable. So I guess you are right – we are no different than men really, just more discreet. AND, I would also argue that women are the ones that get bored with their sexual partner much quicker than her man in a relationship.
Michael 145
“Michael: Do you feel threatened that women have power over you? Tough luck.”
For someone who feels so empowered M, you seem quite threatened. Someone only has ‘power over you’ when you give them that power. I don’t give women that power. Granted in a world where men still don’t understand THEIR own sexual power this can be harder but it is still a matter of not giving power away.
The next step in our sexual dynamic revolution is men will start ‘getting it’ and believing the truths you are all saying here; that you want and need sex as much as men do. Some of us already get that. When men get that the jig is up isn’t it? Meanwhile I am not ruled by pussy or the need for it. Most men still act like it is 1950 and women are chaste and chased and sex is something you pay for and you never turn down. The problem y’all might have is some men like me believe every word you say here; so sex has become and is available and when it is not, guess what? There is always a pussy that can be purchased (one way or another). Which means I don’t have to jump at every/any chance I have regardless of the woman or situation which puts me in the drivers seat or at least up front and not a passenger.
It means men like me have higher standards then your just bringing breasts or a giggle to the party and demand more of you. THAT kind of sucks huh, as much as you claim to want that.
I wonder for instance if Cat understands that by acknowledging all the things she did, she must give up the fantasy that ‘men are cheaters’ or that women don’t cheat as much as men do and for all the same base reasons.
Finally the reason women are so much more threatened then men by men looking/fantasizing is that as much as sex apparently is as big a drive for them as us, it is still used by many women to control men and their resources. Thus when a girl looks at a hot guy it might threaten our ‘masuculinity’ and any insecurities we have thereby; for women it is a threat to your claim of ownership on a man’s wealth. If he can get it from someone else and someone prettier/younger then how much control do you have over him? None.
I welcome women into the open sexuality they claim to embrace as long as they want to claim the whole enchilada (pun intended) not just the parts they like.
And the same goes for you Magdelena; I agree with you that women are just as sexual and men and fantasize and cheat just as much as men, just own up to the rest of it. Have men ‘beat’ women for looking/cheating? Oh yeah. Have women? Oh yeah. Naturally you think when a woman slaps a man or punches him in the chest when he looks it is kinda cute and not abuse.
On one of those hidden camera shows they had a man verbally assaulting his gf in the park and everyone from men to women intervended. Know what happened when they reversed it? Smirks and smiles, one woman actually pumped her fists; they asked her why and she said he probably deserved it he probably cheated on her, as did other people they asked. So it was OK for HER to beat on him for cheating/looking, deserved and humorous. But not the other way around.
So if you want it all have it all be my guest. But have it all.
Evan Marc Katz 146
Michael, you can post one reply. Not three in a row. Thanks.
Cat 147
@ Michael…I’m not quite following you, but I will say that I have never been someone to believe that ALL men are cheaters OR that women don’t cheat as much as men. I don’t know where you got that? And by your lengthy post, you do seem very threatened by Mag’s posts, but why? So what if women are as sexual as men – single men should be jumping up & down about that I would think?
Michael 148
Cat I am not threatened by Mag’s posts I am annoyed at both the vitriol and the hypocrisy of them. If you don’t pick up at least one of them not sure what to say. The article wasn’t about men being threatened by women’s sexuality it was about men celebrating their own. And men arent’ the (only) ones who try to differentate women’sexuality, women are. When it suits your purposes you are more discerning, faithful, less driven by sexuality and more by emotion and love. When it suits your purposes you are not.
Look at the range of comments here; from fury that the article somehow implies (it does not) that WOMEN dont’ also like ogling men yet at the same time fury at how much men cheat, from adamant assertions about how women too like porn/cocks/pizza boys but how men who like porn underpeform at work and in the bedroom.
Magdelena in the same breath talks about how she/women notice and covet men’d bodies (presumably a healthy trait) and in the same sentence says ‘assholes’ should be ‘punished’ for ‘disrespecting’ women for doing the same thing, and her misandry and contempt drips from her when she talks about the ‘gold’ between her legs that men want while at the same time her professed desire for cock is supposed to be profound.
The article did not have a hit of contempt of misogyny. It wasn’t ABOUT women’s desires for pete’s sake it was about MEN’s desires. Cleary if it were about how and why men CHEAT there would not be all these vitriolic replies about how ‘we women cheat and for the same reasons godamn it!’
Sorry if I lumped your comment in with the prior ones in any event that as not my intent.
Cat 149
@Micheal..i can appreciate your thoughts & thx for the apology. But in the same way Mag lumps all men into some category of “asshole-ness”, you seem to be lumping all women into some categories as well. I would argue that both men & women change their “character” at times to fit a purpose. Men trying to be more romantic than usual to fit a purpose or women being more sexual than usual to fit a purpose, same kind of thing.
Michael 150
Hmm cat it is not about changing ‘character’ for a moment; it is about embracing a ‘character’ or role without accepting the attendant responsibilities. Note how proudly most women here embrace their love of bodies/sex/cock/porn and at the same time demean men who do. Now most of them arent’ as blatant as “Mag” and don’t manage to do so in one sentence but I dare you to read the replies beginning to end and not pick up the ‘gestalt’ that men are sexist (and in many cases worthless) pigs and women are empowered sexual beings for wanting the same things. Like I said if you want it own it; you can’t talk with utter contempt about the opposite sex and then justify your own identical behavior on the disrespect they showed you by… acting the same way.
I think this comment might be a sadder version of Mag’s:
“ I have zero qualms about flirting in front of my dates or cheating on boyfriends. I feel bad for any man who might actually want a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner as I did all those years, but you have no right to complain when a woman cheats. MEN are the ones who have made us this way”
To me it goes to the heart of current gender relationships; a REFUSAL to own your own desires/behavior. If Maggie wants to ogle/cheat she should do so without blaming a ‘disrespectufl male’ who… did the same thing and if the woman above wants to she should own it too.
My comment to you therefore was not about lumping women together it was about the gamut of responses that really leave men with little in the way of choice; either we are a) cheating pigs only think with our eyes or b) misogynists who don’t get that women also do but c) when they do it is our fault (see A) and d) they love porn/sex/visual stimulation except when e) we do in which case it is an indication of sexual issue or even misogony.
I posted before about how differently women view their own sexual products such as dildos/vibrators which allmost every woman I’ve ever known has owned and used proudly and men’s products, mainly porn, which is viewed somehow as misogynistic. I find that to be hypocrisy at it’s finest; you remove US entirely from our sexual organs and then wax philosophic about your own porn because of how ‘romantic’ it is. I’ve wondered before how women would feel if their men instead had, excuse the term, pocket pussies they used at home to pleasure themselves.
I think it is high time men recleaimed their own sexuality, and refused to apologize for liking sex, porn, looking at young beautiful women in the street, glancing at a nice ass or chest or gasp enjoying blow jobs. I think it is time men took mags and other women at their word finally and GOT that women are highly sexual creatures and changed their entire MO from the fifty+ year old ‘women don’t like it I have to pay for it one way or another’ mentality and start realizing that their own bodies and sex are commodities in the dating world too. On the one hand it would make things much harder on women (especially the maggies who think they have a pot o’ gold between their legs and men’s parts are there at her beck and call) and on the other hand it might herald in a whole new paradigm of relating both in and out of the bedroom. Just one man’s guess…
Michael 151
Karl R.
“Some your insecurity is probably due to lingering trust issues. I certainly sounds like some of it is coming from ego. Why is it significantthat he’s staring at a 7 instead of a 9.5?”
I think it is for the same reason again that women object to porn; NOT because of the objectification of women but because generally the women are beautiful with perfect bodies. So naturally the thought process for many women is ‘if he wants her how could he want me?’ Men might do this to a degree but not the same one; clearly when porn shows a man with a 14″ penis most of us aren’t threatened to any real degree and for some reason I think we are able to get the concept of ‘the ideal’.
So perhaps the question is posed because she can’t wrap her head around it; she’d get if she was a 7 and he looked at a 9.5 (“he wants her more” which isn’t true either) but when the #s are reversed she doesn’t get it because she thinks it is an either/or. In other words she thinks he is ‘choosing’ but the whole point of this article should have clarified; men can choose and still look. As noted so can women. As as women noted it can be because of one thing; a package, a chest, nice eyes, whatever. I think the woman in question has made a false assumption; that her husband chose her because she was the prettiest and she won some contest above and beyond winning him. I’m going to go out on a limb and say if he had his choice of women including a 9.5 he didn’t choose the prettiest to marry. Contrary to popular belief men don’t marry the prettiest girl they find, they marry the one that makes them feel the best about themselves. 9.5s who don’t treat you well are aren’t fun to be around get boring pretttty fast. I don’t know enough about their relationship to comment definitively but I’m going to say she is not giving herself enough credit about why he chose her. Clearly a man who could have other woman chose her and looking at nice chest/ass/eyes/skirt/knees doesn’t change that.
Cat 152
Very good points Michael. And if you didn’t realize I am the one that wrote the question to Evan in the first place. All the comments got off on a long/exhausting tangent, but I was happy with & understood Evan’s response. My issue was never with porn & I’ve never been threatened by it. And it wasn’t about him “noticing” other women, it was about him staring. And as you mentioned yourself, those are two different things. Staring is disrespectful & hurtful & I explained that to him. Noticing is human nature. And yes, I still find it odd, that a man with a “9.5″ wife would “stare” at, & not “notice”, a “7″. Noticing I would understand. And in the end you are right, looks have nothing to do with it, maybe the 7′s he was staring at he thought were 10′s? The bottom line is his behavior was rude & disrespectful & I think he’s finally gotten it. Does he still look at other women, YES, but in a much more discreet, less blatant disrespectful manner. There were times it was SO blatant I was actually embarassed, for him & myself. One particular time he was staring at an overweight woman, was I “threatened” – NO, but was I embarassed when it became SO blatant that the whole table she was with started looking at us because it was so obvious he was staring at her, YES. Turns out he thought he knew her, in any case, it was EMBARASSING & RUDE. Did I think he “wanted her” or thought he was “choosing” her – NO. Do I have to be the most attractive woman in the room, NO, do I want to be the one my husband’s attention is on, most of the time, YES. Because my attention is on HIM most of the time. Do I notice handsome men, YES, do I scour a room when we walk in for them, NO…Yes, he chose me & not solely for my looks, but it was a part of the reason he was attracted to me initially don’t you think? My question had nothing to do with cheating in my letter to Evan. I don’t believe men cheat more than women & I don’t believe ALL men are cheaters. My husband was a cheater in his past, he is a totally different man now. Do I think his past contributed to his behavior (i.e. “staring” at other women), COMPLETELY. Because when he was that cheater guy he was constantly scouring the room for any woman that was attractive in the hopes of getting her number. That “habit” died hard even when he was with me. It really was a very simple question & like I said, I think Evan answered it perfectly but all the comments afterward kind of spiraled into something unrelated. My whole question was really about “why is he more interested in these other women when we’re out & wanting to watch/stare/listen to them instead of being interested in ME, his wife”…does that make more sense. It wasn’t that I couldn’t wrap my head around the fact that he was staring at 7′s or 8′s (or 9′s or 10′s)…it was the fact that I didn’t get WHY he was STARING at ANYONE period. Noticing – I get it. Stare at or look over & over & over & over? Why? Wouldn’t you feel disrespected if your date/wife/g.f. did that? Even if you weren’t “threatened”. It was rude, disrespectful, hurtful – period. I would hope that you as a man, and yes, a powerful, sexually driven, visually stimulated, porn/woman loving man would understand where I was coming from. It had nothing to do with his “Sexuality as a man” or that he likes porn or that he’s attracted to other women etc etc etc…I get all that. WHY disrespect your partner that way? Ever. That is really where the question came from. I have always treated my husband with respect & admiration & love. We have a great relationship now but that was a hurdle we had to get over. I was extremely hurt by his behavior because I would never do something like that to him. It just hurt. Do I get that he’s attracted to other women & always will be forever & that he likes looking at beautiful women – yes, did that make me feel better as I watched him staring at another woman while I was at his side? NO. The End.
Michael 153
Hmm I never suggested it was ok to stare, I think I in fact said it was not. And I completely agree it is not only disrespectful but a bad sign. I am not sure if asking someone to change/bury behavior changes it. My reply was simply to your not getting the ‘staring at 7s when I’m a 9′. If it is staring it shouldn’t matter if you are a 10 and she is a 1 but clearly there was more to it then that. I’m not saying you care about being the most beautiful woman in the room I am saying you seem or seemed to think that being 9 or 10 or any other # makes you immune to staring/interest of any other woman who is not as pretty. Point is a) men notice parts (like women do and b) men who don’t have the class/sense to not stare aren’t looking at/for ‘more beaiutiful’ just more.
So I get your entire issue and agree with your entire point. I just think you don’t or didn’t get that staring/cheating/noticing is not a zero-sum game. I hope it all works out. Hopefully he was just clueless about how it made you felt because neither your nor any other women really mentioned it and/or he felt he had a right to look. If you made it clear you get he likes to look and finds other women attractive and that that is ok and normal as long as a) he respects you when he is with you and b) he respect you when he is not around you then I think you may have achieved something good. Trying to force somoene to not be attracted or acknowledge it ever explodes into bad situations; acknowledging it and his commitment and respect for you at the same time can turn out very well IMHO.
Cat 154
Michael – You are very right & I agree with your post. And yes, he was clueless & yes he did mention that past girlfriends also got on him about the behavior. And you’re also correct that he might have thought it was his right to do, but I don’t think he understood that his”right” was at the expense of my feelings. We did discuss it at length & I explained that I understand it is natural to look but the ogling/staring was hurtful & disrespectful to me…he gets it now. It took a while but honestly I will always have the feeling that he is more interested in looking around the room for “parts”than he is in me. That is just the way it is.
Kofybean 155
“Other women” is the key phrase in that queation.
Basically, why arent all men looking at me is the fundamental point.
Women love attention, but they hate other women getting attention. As if magically a mans eyes fall out if his head and the very desire that
Chris flaker 156
Ok, we men get it…..Men are pigs, we only have one thing on our minds, we are disgusting, and men only want sex….. blah, blah, blah.
I’m sure you have by now heard men try to defend themselves by poorly using scientific evolutionary theory but to no avail because women simply see men as trying to excuse their behavior.
And women should be upset, since this is a chemical response that causes this reaction.
Women go through a range of emotions, feeling threatened by other women,
Jealous of the other woman, who won her man’s attention,
Embarrassment for the social violation in an environment of civil expectations of propriety,
Guilt for possibly not maintaining their physique over the years,
Insulted by the offensive act,
Disgust because she feels she is with a man of base character,
Anger because their man violated a unremunerated right in the relationship,
And lastly betrayal of the sexually related feelings expressed towards another when they were assumed to be completely exclusive physically and mentally.
All these feeling hit a woman like a truck. She cannot control them because the chemical hormones in her body trigger and involuntarily make her feel the chemical reaction taking place within her.
Men can try as they might to explain their defense but it is no use because she will always feel this way. She is a victim to the chemicals creating her emotions.
She may hide it, or pretend not to be upset but inside she is feeling all these things.
Threatened,
Embarrassed,
Guilt,
Insulted,
Disgusted,
Anger,
Betrayal,
And Mistrust.
Well, now I am going to explain to women without using theory but just simple fact why men are pigs.
Are you ready for it?
Ok here it is…….
Ladies,
Men are disgusting pigs because………wait for it…………. Men, are meant to be MEN.
That’s it.
There is your ground breaking revelation.
There is the answer to why men continue to look at other women and to seemingly only have interest in sex.
Was that not what you were expecting?
Well ok, allow me a moment to be a little clearer when I say “men are men.”
How about this,
If you were a man,
You too would be the same disgusting pig as the rest of us.
Women often can be heard complaining how men cannot understand how it is to be a woman….well that goes both ways ladies.
Men are men and women will never know what it is like to be in the body of a man. Something women should understand that both men and women share is how hormones can affect our behavior.
Well, let me tell you about a little old chemical called testosterone.
Testosterone is a friend to some and an enemy to others and ironically, a friend and enemy to the same people.
The difference between men and women is the sexual hormones that develop us into what we are.
Both men and women have a combination of estrogen and testosterone. Men would actually be woman if not for the release of these chemicals that transform our ovaries into testicles.
So if anything we men are you women but changed because of chemical culprits. Women are the default gender.
Sex drive is dependent on testosterone levels but only in the presence of an estrogen balance.
Each day women produce UP to 1miligram of testosterone.
So what? You say…well
Levels of testosterone influence human behavior because neurons are sensitive to steroid hormones.
Testosterone levels are used in the regulation of human libido. Testosterone is capable of altering the structure of the brain.
Today, Testosterone can now be used as an experimental treatment to raise a woman’s sexual interest, arousal, and satisfaction.
In women, testosterone has a direct effect on sex drive and sexual response. Women taking testosterone have more sexual thoughts, fantasies, activity, masturbation activity and sexual satisfaction.
Rightly or not, women are often seen as being under the influence of their menstrual hormones.
As a result, they are said to be subject to hormonal “tides” or hormonal “storms.”
Well women during their Sexual horny time of the month experience and increase of testosterone.
So at this point you need to agree with the fact that, you women can understand that it’s difficult to control your behavior when all these influx of chemicals are altering your otherwise normal self. Mood swings, happy, sad, horny whatever.
When females have a higher baseline level of testosterone, they have higher increases in sexual arousal levels. The level of testosterone also changes Sexual thoughts.
So if YOUR behavior is understandably tolerated during these times of the month, imagine having libido chemicals slamming your brain and body constantly on a daily basis far greater than what you women have to deal with.
Women talk about being able to have more self-control than men sexually but what women forget to mention is,
Women are “only controlling a fraction of what chemical testosterone that men are expected to control”.
In 24 hours the “average” man produces 7 milligrams as oppose to a woman’s “UP to” 1 milligram in 24 hour range.
Once again, I point out that men ARE women except for the chemicals that change us. We are what women would be if they were also bombarded with the chemicals components in the Y sex chromosome.
So what exactly are women bragging about when they say they “Refrain but guys don’t?”
“Women refrain their 1 milligram but get angry when guys struggle with their 7 milligrams of testosterone?”
Not to mention the fact that women take advantage of this sex obsession men have by baiting men’s attention by pressing the legal limits of wearing the least amount of clothing possible.
Men wear shorts at the beach, but women wear thonged panties and bras called “swimwear”
Yes, camel toe and butt cheeks in public view but men are the perverts for looking. We are beating back 7 milligrams of I want to F^#k now chemicals with near naked bodies bouncing around pretending they don’t know or try to solicit male attention…..yeah, that’s fair….sigh.
As a man trying to keep the brain altering chemical bursts of sex drive at bay is one thing, but to also have women shamelessly hiding their real faces behind glamour model makeup and wearing form fitting, scantly clade or simply provocative dress designed as casual wear on top of it is….well… ridiculously stupid.
Yet women tell us that we should be magically changed with movie magic love once we enter a relationship despite our biological -hormonally chemically- induced- 7 times their sexual drive make up.
Women are reported to masturbate maybe once every week, but with men it’s a daily basis, multiple times a day, As teenage boys 4 times or more, it all just depends on the drive. Now that’s just what guys admit to, more honest have said they have done 10 or more a day.
So, if men are this more active, and throughout history have had this bad wrap of being perverts, shouldn’t we ask ourselves why they are this way? Or should we simply conclude its because they are bad people and should be punished? Is it a coincidence almost all men seem the same all over the world and all through time? Or maybe….IT’S BECAUSE MEN ARE NOT WOMEN!!!! Women can’t boast about control unless they are somehow trapped in men’s bodies battling the same chemical condition men are.
But just as chemicals will make you hungry and think of food, your mind and thoughts cannot be compared to another person because all of our bodies are different. Man to man and woman to woman. Unless you walk the shoes of that particular individual’s body, how can we know what they battle with?
And although we tell our women it’s not a personal thing or a betrayal of love, we are in the dog house time and time again for this chemical impulse causing us to simply notice and being visually impressed by other women in passing
So there is the “why”, men look.
They are influenced by strong chemicals because nature doesn’t recognize the exclusive civilized exclusive relationship he has made with his woman, by altering his sexual attention once he’s committed.
So the impulse is still Very strong. It is not a habit, but a chemical behavior.
A man is constantly at battle with his primal design to mate the world with his genetic code.
The simple cure for this constant looking behavior would be to take drugs to reduce the sexual drive in a man. (Like women do with birth control altering the estrogen balance that functions the testosterone and reducing libido) However the reduced sexual appetite would also make the man not only less sexually interested in woman but also the woman he loves.
Love doesn’t make penises rise and women don’t need to keep their equipment erect by fueling it with constant sexual thoughts like a man does. Women just need to show up for the occasion but a guy has to be aroused to perform the act and all the pressure is on him.
So you can’t really keep your cake and eat it too.
Now that I have properly explained the real science behind men’s visual fixation as oppose to the simple “men are supposed to rape everything in sight evolution” argument.
I want to make it clear that, simply because we as men have a stronger impulse to succumb to our passions does not mean we are justified to do so. A man is not entitled to cheat or lustfully creep-stare-down a woman to the point of visually impregnating her.
Men are no more entitled to that behavior than they are to punching or beating people because we are chemically induced with emotional anger when upset.
All I am pointing out is women who compare their ability to refrain from behaving like men is ridiculous because they are not accomplishing this while occupying a man’s body and having to deal with women soliciting their attention.
Men are interested in aggressive action, hearty food, crude humor and the perfect female form. Anything relating to those four things is what it is to be male. Things Related to these topics usually ends up being sports, fighting, sex, meat, cars, mean jokes and guns.
Of course there are men who have more interests and are not so two dimensional but the basic interest men share tend to be these. Now in regards to women and the men who look at them.
There are three kinds of ways men look at the presentation of a beautiful woman.
1 The look of appraising Admiration
2 The look of Lust.
3 The look of Flirtation
When a man looks at a woman with appraising admiration it’s when a man looks at a woman of beauty much the same way as when a woman sees an attractive woman, but from a different perspective. It’s a critical assessment of the figure.
It’s a scanning for imperfection and when none is found, simple admiration follows. Much like a jeweler appraises a diamond. It is a pleasure to view an object of attractive qualities such as a new sports car or astonishing spectacle.
At this point there is no sexual attachment to the action and may appear to onlookers that the man staring is gawking. This type of fixation is not with every woman who passes because once imperfections are found the man takes his attention elsewhere. To deny this kind of looking is impossible, EVERYONE does it, men, women, old, young, EVERYONE.
The question is why does it seem that men look more? Is there an equal amount of men worthy of attention as there are women? Are men showcasing themselves to the same level as women? Are men constantly watching the eyes of their women or are they too distracted by the woman casually flaunting themselves?
The second way a man looks at a woman is a lustful look whereby the man hosts various mental articulations of sexual acts or feels emotional desire and or a yearning to engage in sex. This type of look is done by Indulging in carnal fantasy of penetrating, groping and undressing the object in view.
This kind of look is the kind that is done when pornographic material is being viewed and most likely arouses the man. Some men may do this privately until noticed while others do it regardless if the subject discovers the onlooker.
This type of look is often termed “eye fu%king”. It is the bitters man attempt to psychologically disturb the subject as a consolation to the likelihood nothing more will come out of the encounter.
The third way a man looks at a woman is flirtation. The man stares until he meets the eyes of the woman and engages in a private world of acknowledgement. This is more for the thrill. It’s the rush of adrenaline for the underdog being noticed by an attractive woman and also could signify his interest in pursuit of something further. This look is done with engaging the subject’s eyes and not the body.
Appraising objects of beauty is not nor should not be threatening in a relationship. A man could do it with the same gender, a really nice car or anything worthy of attention since it is not a sexual act.
And if a man is easily impressed with the appearance of others, a simple solution to his looking problem is to wear sun glasses. This way he will not be mistaken for lusting at all the women who dress provocative and solicit attention. And his significant other will no longer try to chaperone his sight from her perceived dangers of the world.
There is an obligation to maintain discretion with a man’s eyes because the man’s company may feel embarrassed by the man’s fixations or the subject of attention may feel uncomfortable if they are not soliciting attention. While it can be argued that to admire the beauty of a person’s body is simply the appreciation of rare accomplishment resulting from the dedication one commits to working out, Staring at people, or people’s things without discretion is simply rude. So once again wear sunglasses so that your perception, like your thoughts will be private and noninvasive in public.
However the look of lust is a completely different scenario which can be controlled with practice because it is not an automatic reaction to the presentation of an attention worthy subject but rather it is the initiated, deliberate and willful indulgence of a mental rape.
This kind of mental foreplay often accompanies masturbation in order to maintain fuel for the fire and even can corrupt a man’s thoughts during intimacy while the man is with his significant other if he finds his erection fading. This type of looking should be discouraged. It’s addictive, sinful and very progressive, to the point of obsession. While science can argue that men may be drawn to certain biological elements in the women’s child bearing form, science does not justify the elected carnal practices of raping someone visually.
The look of flirtation is the most dangerous, since it seeks thrills from others, not as a simple admirer or even as bad as a voyeur but more so as one interested in interaction with the subject of attraction. This is a betrayal at the most conscious level. As far as infidelity, Flirtation is not one step away from the next level; it’s a step of the next level.
So with everything being said, I would like to clarify and review a few points. All Looking is not all the same thing. Men are not women and women will never be men. I will not pretend I can understand a woman or what she is thinking because although we share humanity we are on opposite sides of the sexual spectrum. You may ask yourself, why does my man look at other women if he loves me?
· The answer is, because love is not in conflict with the desire to view something worthy of attention.
· Secondly, your man loves you because there is only one you, one soul and that cannot be replaced with anyone else in the world.
· Third a body IS in fact a piece of meat. It is not who you are, but only the shell you reside in. A man does not marry a body, a man marries a soul. A body can gain in physical appeal or lose it depending on the actions of the operator and simple aging.
· Men rate women on personality and beauty; but men are rated primarily on personality and financial status. A woman can love a man and hate his poor house, just as a man can love a woman and hate her poor body. The body is only a material item which is not the substance or integrity of the relationship, so one should not feel threatened or feel subjugated to comparison like a used car traded for a new one when a woman of attractive appeal walks by. Your man is not with you because he thinks you are the most attractive woman he can have (or has had) He is with you because there is only one you. The way you look is the physical association he has with your personality and so is attached to you and all that reminds him of you. There are trillions of women that he may find more attractive then you are accessible to him, yet he will not stray away because that is once again not the reason he is with you. Now if women walked about wearing their souls and men looked at them that would be a different story and reasonable cause for doubt and insecurity because a person’s soul should not interest them more than yours, but a body could be more impressive than yours because of the work invested in it. I feel no threat if and when an attractive man is present because I know my wife is not with me for my appearance. What I possess is not in competition. Who I am is my most valuable possession and I am the only one who has that.
· In truth staring at everything that walks around but the person you are with is annoying and disrespectful because a woman (or any company for that matter) should have the majority of your attention while you are with them.
· However feeling bad about other women and chastising men for looking at them passing by is extreme and controlling. Admiration of another person’s beauty does not trespass on your imaginary territory over your man’s free will. When a man marries a woman or gets in a
relationship, he agrees to not to not see any other women, but he doesn’t mean that literally. lol
· In most cases although not all, some women may feel guilt because they have not done their homework as far as the upkeep or even the betterment of their own physique and their guilt transitions into anger towards their men for making them feel inadequate in that area.
· A woman’s body will constantly change and always provide something new and different for her man when she works out or has kids. Most of these transitions and changes provide something pleasurable to the man unless it is total neglect. After a woman has a baby, the man enjoys thicker thighs bigger butt, larger breasts, and before she has her child, the man has the youthful tightness and sleekness of her body. Apples and oranges. When a woman works out she never reaches the best of what she can be just as a man never does. There is always the ability to invest and adjust. However the unwillingness to do so may subjugate your man to a prison of all he will ever have in a sexy body is what you decide you will invest, which may not be the most promising concept. But once again remind yourself that he is not with you for your body but your soul
· Lastly remember that we as individuals contribute to the whole of society. You know what I mean…make a difference by changing the man in the mirror sorta stuff. My point being is, if you in your hay day wore provocative clothing while you were single, I’m sure when you dressed this way you were quite aware of what the effects it had on men both married and single. That being said, thinks about all the women who suffered as a result of you baiting their attention. Wearing glamour make up, showing skin and form fitting clothing, is the reason men look. If all men worked out and dressed in chip in dale biker volley ball shorts, hiding imperfections with tons of makeup and casually strolling by indifferent pretending they are not passive aggressive exhibitionists, women would also look. Women look now and men don’t nearly bait attention to the degree that women do. Point being is karma is a bitch and you get what you give, so be understanding.
To all the men, our wives, girlfriends, mothers, sisters, daughters, make this world worth living. They are God’s gift to us. Try your best to not look at women. You may surly fail from time to time, to time to time but remember each time you avoid looking is a time you spare the person you love from feeling terrible and unloved, unwanted and like nothing. We know women will not control their crazy hormone psycho-ness because they have the hormone excuse. Ours don’t count because men are men lol so suck it up guys, we know we are justified to a point but we must be Men and protect our women, even from ourselves.
Anne 157
I came to this thread because my partner, a female, also notices other women and it’s very often hurtful to me. It’s not the first time this has happened in one of my relationships. Both partners regularly told/tells me I’m beautiful so the situation was/is very similar to Cat’s.
I realize there’s not much (more likely nothing) I can do to control her behavior, especially if it began years before we met AND has a hormonal cause. I will not deny that I notice other women too, but more often than not, it’s in a preemptive kind of way: e.g. how long until my partner notices her? I think many people are physically beautiful and like other beautiful objects, they will be noticed.
My dilemma is this: twice now, in my presence, my partner has put on sunglasses when a beautiful woman has come into the room. Please note this has happened indoors, within moments of the woman’s arrival. Odd coincidence? Maybe. I can only guess it’s my partner’s attempt to be discreet and still look, but it winds up being hurtful, especially when it happened the second time and I asked her to remove them, and she was defensive and called me ‘controlling’.
So the point I would make is: okay maybe the woman is gorgeous but do you really need to stare, so much that you try to hide your behavior behind sunglasses, in your own girlfriend’s presence? We’re not glued to each other’s sides so I imagine there are ample opportunities to thoroughly check out other people. Hey, get out the binoculars why don’t ya?
So yeah, this happens in same sex relationships, too. My partner is the more masculine of the two of us, and I’d venture to guess she has more testosterone naturally than do I (although we’ve never compared lab tests). So maybe this is in fact hormonally induced behavior but it doesn’t mean it’s not hurtful to the women you’ve chosen to be with. Controlling your urge to examine another woman in the room will go a long way toward maintaining peace and harmony.
Cat 158
@ Chris #156 – I thought yours was a great response & you were spot on when you said…” And lastly, betrayal of the sexually related feelings expressed towards another when they were assumed to be completely exclusive physically and mentally.” All the feelings you described that women have are exactly right. I understand so much more about men now & although I understand it’s your nature & it’s normal, it’s honestly been a sad revelation for me as a woman. I never knew men had such a hard time staying monogamous or controlling their sexual urges all the time. Or that they actually have to consciously fight their urge to ogle other women or think about other women sexually. I didn’t know it was such a struggle. I kind of wonder why any men get married or want to be in a relationship when they are biologically programmed to be with many women. I have learned a lot. I don’t think men are pigs or disgusting, men are just men, like you said. Outside beauty is not the only thing that matters in a relationship, but given how absolutely visually/sexually driven all men are, I still think it plays a major role in a relationship.
Hithere 159
So these men, when they look at these other women, are they just “noticing” their beauty? Or are they actually imagining having sex with them? It makes a big difference. One is noticing a work of art and admiring it in a non sexual way, the other one is creating a sexual reality with his thoughts.. and if he has a partner, he is creating a reality of infidelity.. action follows thoughts..
So yes, it does matter, and it does effect a relationship.
The things you do or think about are related and connected to the other things you do and will effect seemingly unrelated aspects of your life. I know the male mind is habituated to compartmentalize and detach, and doesn’t always see how one thing in one department will drastically effect another department.
Add to this, that our media has absolutely made men visually addicted to the nth degree (what might have been a natural drive of men is now completely distorted and extreme) and that changes your views a bit
I advise any woman, who reads threads like this and it breaks her hearts about relationships, to chose a new way, there must be one. Women are not meant to have their emotions tortured and their hearts broken by this crap all the time, sorry. If this is “genetic” doing, nature must hate us!
Michael 160
Sorry Hi There that is puritanical not to mention sexist balderdash. You mean the only ‘valid’ way I can notice a woman if I am in a relationship with another one is in a purely aesthetic appreciation of her ‘art form’? You mean that people in relationships should never form any sexual thoughts or attractions to any other people ever during the course of their relationship?
That isn’t a view based on morality or reality is one based on both insecurity and control If your heart is broken knowing your man found another woman sexually attractive then you should either work on your own self confidence or find some other aspect of yourself to hold him to the relationship.
BTW, woman are just as visual (as you might notice by the comments by your sisters here). Generally the sexual parts of our bodies are not as prevalent. If we wore low-cut push-up pants that exposed the top half of our cocks we’d be (most of us
) ‘subjected’ to stares just as much. As it is when those of us with nice bodies wear tee-shirts or are topless or wear tight pants with appaent bulges we get looked at just as much AND by women with dates/boyfriends/husbands. Again just read the posts here by other women.
What you object to is not a ‘problem’ with men or media, it is a natural human condition that compels us to notice and be attracted to and sexually receptive to members of the opposite sex to ensure the continuation of the species. For women that means responding to those attributes that indicate the ability to provide and protect (tall, strong, confident) and for men the ability to nurture and bear children (smooth skin, firm breasts, correct hip to waist ratio). These things don’t shut off because we have committed to another person, we simply stifle them due to our social conventions, some of which are achrcaic some of which are not.
*I* advise any woman who can’t deal with the fact men (and women) are and always will be attracted to other people no matter how fabulously gorgeous or fantastic our partners are to spend less time trying to control other people’s sexuality and to work on their own.
Michael 161
Cat, why would any man have to ‘control his urges to think about other women sexually’? What is this obsession with controlling men’s sexuality? Why is it that YOU make the relationship about sex and more to the point about controlling his eyes and thoughts in order to consider it a valid relatiobnship? You ask why a man would get married if he is going to think about or notice other women sexually and I wonder what planet you want to live on. One where a man only wants to have sex with you and only notices you as a female for the rest of his natural days? Doesn’t anything about that reek of control and desperation to you?
And the need to constantly blame this behavior (noticing people other then your partner sexually) is tiresome; Anne who is in a same-sex relationship whose partner, a woman, does the same can only think of blaming testosterone on that behavior.
It is no different then when women justify their infidelity; naturally it isn’t because they want some hot guy they fantasize about it, it is something ‘deeper’ and ‘more meaningful’. And naturally when a man cheats you can’t credit that he was missing that ‘more meaningful’ element with you,he is just some poor brute driven by his eyes and his hormones.
Personally as a man I am tired of having women try to control my sexuality to make themselves feel better about themselves or to control my other resources. I’m not even in a relationship now but have had female friends scold me for looking at a girl’s ass who passes by or for noticing or dating a girl that makes her feel insecure (read: younger. prettier, bustier) about her own dating situation.
Do you want us to stick around and be faithful and monogamous? Bring something to the party besides your own obsessions with your looks, besides your own obsession with competing with one another, and give us a reason to bring our desires to your bosom rather then someone else’s.
Michael 162
@ Cat; “Outside beauty is not the only thing that matters in a relationship, but given how absolutely visually/sexually driven all men are, I still think it plays a major role in a relationship.”
#1 The ‘biomarkers’ that men respond to for sexual relationships are pretty simple; those that indicate youth and fertility which inlcude silky hair, smooth skin, bright lively eyes, perky breasts, hip-to-waist ratio. They are 100% analagous to the biomarkers women look for in men, except those include not only physical signs of the ability to provide/protect (size/strength) but of the outward signs such as social status and property. Clearly men are going to put more stock in physicality since we don’t inlcude your ability to provide or protect int our calculus.
#2 I am willing to bet if you ran a large scale study you’d find very few men who married (or even proposed to) the most beautiful woman they ever dated yet I am willing to bet most women dated the most successful man they dated (who proposed to them).
Men and women just have different reasons for wanting and needing a partner. The reason women are sooo much more threatened by a man’s sexual interest in other women is that it threatens the hold/control they have over that man and therefor his resources. A woman noticing/wanting other men may on some level threaten our masculinity but it does not threaten our potential, perceived or actual access to resources. Control our sexuality or access to sex and you control everything. I’m going to bet if you dig to the bottom of this terror of men noticing other women you will find that fear at the root.
kofybean 163
How is it possible not to notice someone in your vacinity?
How is it possible to be completely and utterly blind to the fact that another living, breathing, and anitmated entity exist within the immediate vacinity?
Whether female or male, whether hot or not, does it really bother women that much that men have the ability to acertain he is not the only person who walks the Earth?
Is it so painful to women that a man can have a working set of eyes that recognize shapes, colors, and motion and be cognizant of another human being?
marymary 164
I’m very visually driven. I,ve stopped dead in the street when i,ve seen a beautiful man. It,s no threat at all to my relationship. However, I only see men that good looking less than once a year. I hazard that men see women that beautiful somewhat more often.
Michael 165
I cant think of a single relationship I’ve had where both myself and my girlfirrend don’t notice and admit to noticing good looking people. That doeesnt mean there isn’t a way to do it, to say it, and to act around other people. I’d think a woman was nuts if we were on the beach and some hot athelet type walked by and she didn’t notice or noticebaly react to some good looking guy in a tux at a party. She’s with me, clearly she can have other men and she chose me. For as long as she does. And vice-versa. Here is what I think; to the extent that you bury or damp down someone else’s sexuality you bury or damp down your sexual relationship with them. When you allow it to flower, when that person chooses your person and your body to express their sexuality you end up with awesome sex and an awesome connection. Clearly in addition to sex/sexuality between two people being an expression of their emotional/physical relationship it is also a part of each of their separate primarl/sexual desires and needs. Feel blessed and honored they have chosen you to be with because whatever you look like, do or say is making them share that with you.
cat 166
Michael – my point wasn’t about a woman controlling her man’s sexuality, my point was it must be hard for a man to control his own urges when he’s married or in a LTR because in order to be in a monogamous relationship you have to control your urges on some level & from the sounds of most men on this blog that isn’t an easy task sometimes. It wasn’t meant to say women have/want to control our men, it’s more about men controlling themselves. Like being discreet about looking at other women when you’re out with your significant other etc. out of respect. Both men & women have to control themselves to some degree when they are in a LTR, it just seems much harder for men. My comment wasn’t one of bashing men, rather acknowledging that it must be hard being a man. Period.
Michael 167
But Cat it is hard for anyone in a monogamous relationship to control their sexual urges whether those urges come from visual, emotional or physical stimulation. Somehow you seem to be saying this is an issue men have a hard time with. Infidelity is just as common for women as it is for men.
I dont’ really see a lot of comments here from men about how hard it is to refrain from urges to have sex with other people. And both men and women have to deal with looking at or flirting with other people they find attractive. And again my point is that men, by and large, are not as threatened as women by it.
I get your point about ‘being discreet’ but isn’t that being controlling? I mean you basically want the man to pretend in front of you that he doesn’t notice other women. Why? He does. You know. He knows it. The other women know it. I’ve seen more times then I can count some woman slap a man’s chest, arm, even face when she sees him looking at another woman’s body. I have never ONCE seen a man do that to a woman.
I respect your posts here but underlying all of it is a desire to pretend and to have your man pretend you are the prettiest and only woman he sees/wants and sorry Cat, it just ain’t the truth, I don’t care if you are in fact Angelina Jolie complaining about Brad Pitt here.
Making it sound as if we are under some uncontrollable compulsion that makes it hard to be with a woman is not fair either. If I could take a pill that would eliminate my desire to appreciate any female form but my gf or wife I’d abstain. I think you should just appreciate the natural attraction that exists between men and women and either be secure in your relationships regardless of not.
Michael 168
Mary Mary, if you think there are so many women that make us stop dead in our tracks each day I am not sure where you live. I live in Manhattan, arguably home of the most beautiful women in the world (all nationalities, well dressed, etc) and if you walk in midtown in the summer it is an endless display but stop dead in our tracks? Once a year sounds about right?
I btw had my once-a-year last week, I was on a cruise and ordered a bottle of wine from room service and when I opened the door forgot my own name for a moment. I’m not counting on that for another year at least.
Michael 169
“However the look of lust is a completely different scenario which can be controlled with practice because it is not an automatic reaction to the presentation of an attention worthy subject but rather it is the initiated, deliberate and willful indulgence of a mental rape.”
Mental Rape. How offensive not only to men who look at women lustfully as is their right but to women who are actually raped.
Evan Marc Katz 170
Michael, for the last time: ONE comment to respond, not three in a row.
cat 171
I continue to disagree with you Michael. I don’t think asking a man to be discreet is controlling. I think it is asking a person to be respectful, IMO anyway. I don’t pretend, or want him to pretend that he doesn’t notice other women. He still notices & surely admires some, but doesn’t linger or stare like he used to. He can still stare when I’m not around & that’s okay. I’m not sure why you think it’s controlling to ask for respect.
Michael 172
Ok CAT I get that part. Leering, flirting, lingeriing, staring ,etc are not cool, I do think I mentioned that way back.
Chris flaker 173
@cat 158
Hey Cat thanks for the comment. I have had to battle with this sort of thing and never even knew it was such a difficulty until I became married. don’t lose heart though. My post was not to justify men actions with infidelity. The more something is practiced unchecked the greater the habit
I Only wanted to touch points for both women and men why the battle is so difficult. Its important to know the enemy to better understand it. The enemy as I call it refers to the potential hurt causers in the relationship.
Yes it is natural and simply nature to notice and enjoy visually appealing objects. and I want to stress objects because that is what we are when we are seen as strangers. just “things” once you get to know a person they lose their fantasy allure and become real. My wife was a Hot sexy fantasy and now she is my love. lol
guys are attracted sexually to the object not so much the human. when women put on lingerie they become objects. it strips away the personality and becomes a fantasy stranger.
yeah what I’m saying sounds like pretty scary stuff, but relax its not that bad. let me explain why. you might think your man has lost interest in you because hes not crazy about sex as he once was but that’s because you are no longer seen in his eyes as an empty object but you have evaluated to family loved one.
when he is feeling deep loving connection at times he may become aroused and make love. But remember most guys have spank banks that fuel the brain to command an erection at will. after a while this bank runs out. or he may try to objectify you in his thoughts doing things you would never agree to in order to feed his erection. that’s why its the man who “performs” and the woman who gets to judge lol
a man can just have a morning erection at the time and use it but ultimately a man trains his thoughts to be aroused with fantasy objects and associates empty lifeless strangers as sexual. so there really is no comparison to the hot blonde walking down the street and his loved family member. he doesn’t want to trade up. they aren’t regarded as the same thing.
a stripper is sexy, hot, and yummy up until the object “stripper” becomes a “person”. once you know them, once you know their kids, their father dying of cancer, their diabetic condition, their political opinions, their bad breath, farts, bad manners, thoughts, dreams, bills, personality, life story, they lose object appeal and become someone you love or hate. if you love them you still end up losing the “object attraction” to them the same way you would when you hate them.
guys will have hot ex girl friends but the hot aspect didn’t prevent them from dumping them, because they lost that appeal once the man knew them as a person and not a mystery fantasy with self projected assumptions of what they may be like.
of course once the man forgets what she was like she can become a fantasy again which is why you have rekindling of old flames.
anyway. don’t lose heart cat. Just remind your man from time to time when he slips and know that he’s trying a lot harder then you think, but you only notice the times he fails lol. Its not personal and will become more difficult to avoid if you create that “forbidden” status with it
it sucks and is really annoying being sex crazed, more so when you are younger ,but it can be controlled. Its just that in todays world it can feel like each day is another battle against the odds.
I’m writing a book on this subject now, hopefully it will help people understand both sides of the fence.
as for why men want to marry? lets not forget men are women except altered with y chromosomes
hespeler 174
chris flaker that is a somewhat crude but very accurate description of male sexuality. Sex changes mentally for us when we really get to know and love a woman and she becomes “family” as you mentioned.
I’ll also agree with Michael. I hear from woman all the time that there are so many beautiful women out there. That’s actually not so. There are a lot of cutish, prettyish girls but it is rare that you come across a very beautiful woman in your day to day travels. At least during the travels of most average work-a-day men.
Amelia 175
Long before I got serious with my current boyfriend, he was pretty obvious about his enjoyment of strip clubs, porn, etc. Instead of getting pointlessly offended, what it told me is, “Cool, this guy is a normal guy.” Frankly, the men who DON’T own this aspect about themselves tend to creep me out.
Since we’ve been dating, I’ve never really cared much about what or who he looks at when we are out and about. The best analogy that helped me understand the compulsive roving eye is the comparison between window shopping vs. actually shopping. Looking at the neat things you like, without any intention or ability to actually buy, is totally natural. Window shopping is pleasant because it’s much easier, more fun, and less costly, compared to the immense bother of going in the store, fighting off aggressive salespeople, and having a heart attack when you realize you spent beyond even the ballpark of what you had budgeted. And we don’t ordinarily do it in order to send personal messages about our friends and loved ones, do we?
Another analogy would be if my boyfriend got worked up and asked me to never look at adorable puppies and kittens, even in pictures, because he hates dogs and cats and thinks one day I will have a moment of weakness and get one from a shelter to take one home. If he ever made a rule like that, I would have to assume he’s got bad unresolved issues causing him to believe that A) I have no self-control, and B) that I have no comprehension of the difference between just looking versus actually BUYING, and taking on the burdensome responsibilities of feeding/training/walking/vaccinating/etc. And just what kind of monster doesn’t like looking at adorable puppies and kittens??
I guess my advice here really is that unless you’re dating a man with below room temperature IQ, a decent guy who values you is gonna know the difference between just looking and buying, will count on you to know the difference, too. Whenever you feel anxious about your guy glancing at another woman, it might be helpful to imagine that woman as a sexy new pair of pumps, or a shiny sportscar, or whatever you enjoy looking at but don’t care to own. Heck, imagine she’s Johnny Depp. It’s the same idea: window shopping.
Michael 176
Wow Amelia what a truly centered reply. I mentioned this analogy before but getting upset at men looking at women or porn is sort of like getting upset at women owning/using sex toys. It speaks more to your own concerns then any real issues. That said I’m one of those guys who hates strip clubs.
Amelia 177
I’m sorry Michael if I missed seeing a similar analogy from you while typing all that up, but I’m happy to lend support to the same idea. It’s a matter of figuring out what’s really worth getting bent out of shape over.
Personally, I’ve been to a couple of strip clubs before, and I think it did me a world of good to have a concrete experience before forming an opinion on them. Ultimately, while the ones I went to were actually pretty darn nice as far as cleanliness and service, after a while I couldn’t help but think “Wow, this place is actually pretty depressing.” So while I don’t *hate* them exactly, I think I’ll always have a better time going to a normal bar with friends. More fun, and a hell of a lot less expensive. Mileage may vary, etc
Michael 178
Oh my analogy was different but same concept no worries
I would say I had the same reaction; depressing. Not too sure myself the appeal of a woman with no interest in you but your money is appealing and vice-versa. Which kind of brings me back to the whole point of this article. I like to look as much as the next guy but the turn-on is always chemistry. Very little of that in a strip club. Reminds me of funny advice I read in one of those ‘ask the bartender’ columns in a men’s magazine. The reader said he thought the stripper asked him out, did he think she might really like him for him? The columnist said ‘unless a stripper asks you out to go bowling AND offers to pay it is unlikely’
Michael 179
@Chris Flaker your post reminded me of a very funny ‘All in the Family Episode’ that pretty much summarizes this thread. The wife buys a black wig and the husband gets so turned on they have sex every night, he is insatiable, she is happy to have her sex life back. Yet she starts to get upset that the wig turns him on so much. One night it all boils over and she says ‘You are sick! SICK! You’re turned on by a wig!’ to which he retorts “I’m sick? I”M Sick??? You’r JEALOUS of a wig!!!’
marymary 180
Amelia
in the uk the sex industry is fuelling a big demand for trafficked women from eastern Europe and within the uk. Strip clubs are often a front for that. I would be pissed if anyone close to me was putting money into this ” business”. It may be more wholesome in the US but in the uk going to strip clubs is not a usual thing to do, we don,t do the typical bachelor party thing either. It,s not something that most men have to do or even want to do.
as for window shopping I don,t see that as harmless anymore having come home with too much stuff I don,t need. If I don,t see it I won,t want it. There,s a lot to be said for being content with what you have and not cruising the streets for distractions.if you,re happy with what your boyfriend does then that,s good.
But I would caution in general not to be too accommodating of “boys will be boys”. Not to say we should be making men over either, rather choosing better.
I agree with chris 173 that left unchecked the greater the habit. But then I,m a bit weird in that I find self-control a very attractive quality. We do all control our base instincts or I,d be punching/licking strangers on a regular basis.
Michael 181
But you’re clear that self control means not punching/licking strangers when you have the urge to. Not suppressing the very thought ‘Boy I’d like to punch/lick that person’?
An the UK men don’t strip club thing is IMHO untrue; I know lots of Uk men here and they to a man love strip clubs and love fighting.
I’m unclear MaryMary how you can stop dead in your tracks looking at a man and not feel is is a threat to your relationship AND don’t think window shopping is harmless. If some part of your conscious/subconscious was not window shopping you wouldn’t notice the traffic stopper of a man.
Amelia 182
In the US, the jokes are either “let’s help put a girl through school” or “let’s support single moms”. Regardless of why a stripper does what she does, the exploitation factor is certainly not lost on me, which probably has a lot to do with why I feel they are very depressing places and why I certainly wouldn’t shed a tear if every single one closed tomorrow. It’s actually a similar feeling I have about casinos, which also exist primarily to exploit, and perhaps launder. But for what it’s worth, my friends and I never, ever treated a waitress or dancer with disrespect, nor would we have allowed it. I even remember at least one lady who was glad to just sit down for a minute and have some actual conversation with us.
But to try and steer this discussion back onto the relevant topic, I think what I am trying to illustrate is that as a chick, I can agree that even titty bars really aren’t all they are cracked up to be as far as being a serious threat to a solid relationship. Now that I know that from experience, I don’t see a reason to feel insecure about them. I also think that most normal guys, like Michael here, are intelligent enough to realize, just like women, that all these places sell is a lame fantasy. Guys might enjoy that fantasy quite a bit more obviously, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t 100% prefer to live in reality. Rare is the guy who actually wants to end up as “that guy”– the one who shows up every Tuesday evening and sits in the corner until close, all alone, and nursing a crappy beer because he blew through all of his cash within an hour. I can tell you my boyfriend’s interest dropped right off of a cliff when we started dating, like it was something he was more than happy to finally give up. I think a real problem would be if he weren’t able to take or leave them easily for my sake.
And since strip clubs will not all close tomorrow, and porn will most assuredly exist until the extinction of humanity, it makes more sense for me to practice thinking realistically about this stuff. Not permissively, but realistically. One doesn’t have to agree with a behavior, but one can try to understand where it largely comes from…and discussions like this are incredibly helpful.
marymary 183
Amelia
glad to hear it.s not a current issue. I’m not jealous of strippers. I hesitate to feel sorry for them though, they,d hate that. I just know that if one of my nieces came home and said theyd got a job in a strip club i would be asking a lot of questions, not saying CONGRATS!
Randi 184
I read the article and I completely understand what aging women go through when their men are viewing ever younger, nubile women on the internet, or elsewhere. I was married for 27 years – had three kids, and was always fit – but the porn issue weighed heavily (along with many other things) in my marriage. My husband no doubt, let our bed many times in favor of porn…and it upset me many times – year after year. As the years wore on, he became ever more steeped in his porn, and I grew increasingly lonely. It led me into the arms of another man eventually, and our marriage dissolved.
I was adventurous in bed – non-demanding & eager to please, and quite frisky – but in the long run, I finally figured out late, the porn provided him with an easy sexual fix lacking intimacy. And along with the variety, it was the anonymity and lack of intimacy that he desired.
He grew up with older brothers and became addicted to porn at an early age, and it never seemed to resolve itself in his mind – and he had other emotional problems (neglect, etc.) In many ways, I think porn is a dangerous delusion – a high for sure, but also a lie that is traded for truth. Imagery that elicits strong arousal and emotional response can set a path for future behavior, and it can easily cross over into addiction and preference, obscuring a beneficial state of being; an exclusive one on one relationship with another human being. Think Pavlov’s dog – porn consumption is a conditioned response overplayed again and again on top of a natural desire/need. It does what it is supposed to do – pull you in, even at your own peril.
Anyhow, I eventually left him and am now dating a man who is absolutely in love with the female form, which is natural and beautiful. And it’s OK in a way that it wasn’t with the other guy. He’s never hidden the fact from me that he loves gorgeous women, and looking at them. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. He’s never hidden the fact (and in fact defended it) that he has used porn on occasion to jump start the lizard part of his brain before I came over ~ as he’s an older gent who sometimes has a bit of a problem getting it up. But he isn’t steeped in it, and he’s quite respectful of me when we’re out and about (no leering, no drooling ,etc.)
And I love to look at men. What woman doesn’t? If you don’t think women undress men with their eyes, or imagine other men naked, and imagine sleeping with other men other than their husbands or boyfriends, then you don’t know women.
Something you don’t read about – or hear much about is the female visual response. I cannot agree that men are visual creatures without also acknowledging the fact that females are hard wired as well to respond to visual stimulation.
Women on the whole (perhaps this is biological) have more self control than males, as they know exactly where the mind might lead them. If we thought with our loins (as men do) we’d be screwing every hard bodied good looking male in site ~ because we can easily bed a wide variety of males at the drop of a hat.
In another life, I might quite enjoy the same liberties that males enjoy on a daily basis (via porn). But in this life – I know beyond a doubt that if I did commit my mind and emotions to such varied stimuli – I’d be screwing men half my age, of every size and shape, color and age. How could I not, when I could have them so easily?
Maybe as you allude in some of your text, it is the male sensitivity to his impotence which binds him to porn. Men covet what they cannot have, whereas women shy from all that they could have “if” they were not reigning in their desire for the “other” alternative; and that is, being with a single mate.
Oh the irony of it all – this life!
marymary 185
Randi
It’s not just ageing women, I hear from women in their twenties, heck even girls in their TEENS who are being adversely affected by porn. My heart sank when I watched a program on UK teens and their sex lives (should they even have a sex life?). The boys, in their school uniforms so all 16 and under, were complaining about – their girlfriends’ pubic hair, saying it’s gross, disgusting etc. They’ve got too used to porn. I doubt they have a problem with impotence.
I personally don’t think it’s manly to be nitpicking over women’s “flaws”. I’m not keen on picky eaters either.
I’ve been celibate for nearly seven years for religious reasons. It wouldn’t help me to be constantly looking for sexual stimuli. I guess if a person has no reason to control themeslves, then look as much as you want. Otherwise, it sounds like an exercise in frustration to me.
I’m not blind, I do see beauty but they could be old, young, babies, men, women. I freaked out one of my nieces from staring at her too much, she has become so beautiful. It’s not just about sex
I do find my boyfriend sexually attractive, though, thank God. Otherwise, I’d be wondering if I’d died below the waist.
Back to topic, if my boyfriend looks at other women he hides it very well. He’s very discreet even looking at me. He might pipe up at the end of the evening “I like that dress. It fits you” and I think “He noticed!”
I’m not saying he never looks at other women. I simply don’t have a problem with how he behaves and I’m not going to start looking for trouble. No need for either of us to worry, we both have self control in buckets.
Chris Flaker 186
Sex can be a very complicated topic. Everyone plays by a different moral rule book if any at all. Obviously it has its importance and directly affects us all since none of us would exist if not because of it. I know many disagree with others placing restrictions on what one can or cannot do with their lives or their bodies but facts are what they are; there are obviously pros and cons to this issue. Sex is a matter to be addressed in any and all societies. Whether it be misused or abused it affects us all and this is the reason I believe all of us are entitled to an opinion.
We as humans obviously share many traits and physical qualities with the rest of the creatures of the world and so defend our more primal actions by saying its natural. While such arguments have some merit to a point, they neglect the fact that we are uniquely more than the rest of the animal kingdom.
We have awareness of awareness; the greatest intellect on the planet and we have love. This quality is against nature’s rule of self-preservation because love means sacrifice. It is the sacrifice of someone’s time, energy, resource or life for another regardless if there is any gain or not. This ability of understanding raises the bar of expectation of each other. If a dog bites us we don’t take it personal because it’s the dog’s nature to be a dog, but when a man behaves like a dog when he is capable of much more, it is offensively personally. It is a show of inconsideration and lack of respect.
With that being said (obviously awarding a point towards women at the expense of men’s short coming) women should also be accountable for not behaving as an animal and flaunting sexual body parts to increase the level of difficulty. Meaning, being hungry and controlling oneself from not eating is one thing, but to fan the aroma of food and wave it about carelessly is another thing.
Women pretend to be dressed casual but truly are far from it. It is not men who objectify alone; women greatly help accomplish the dehumanizing of themselves for men. Women are looked at like pieces of meat because they walk around wearing parsley. lol
As I mentioned before, the stress men have to resist is greater than what women contend with. Men are hungrier than women. It’s not a coincidence that throughout history men are perverts. Why else are there thousands and thousands of strip clubs offering women dancers and not men. Why else do men masturbate so much more? Why else is a nympho a man’s dream? Why else do men think of paradise as being an orgy? Guys have the impulse to spread their seed around but women become pregnant for nine months.
Now, I don’t wish to offend men by saying all men are raving vampires wanting to rape and pillage everything in sight. But some guys seem to have it worse than others, or are willing to admit to more than others but most would agree with me that women can do anything a man can but in the sex craze competition, they cannot compete in that department. Men as a whole want sexual anything more than women as a whole. It is socialization in part but hormones don’t lie. Men were built to be horny and want multiple partners at our base primal level. These feelings are conquered by our feminine side of nature and nurture. We want love too. It’s a war between the two. Women are catching up sorta but not really. The day men and women are the same in that regard is the day women are getting arrested for cutting peep holes in men’s locker rooms.
I have found that sex becomes what it is for that person. If you have no inhibitions you are basically walking genitalia. Of course very few are that bad lol. If sex has no more meaning than a gesture similar to a hand shake for a person, then it tends to remain so. If sex is sacred and holy to a person than it will remain so. Personally I could have a hundred of beautiful women begging me for sex and I would not be tempted to engage; not because of my commitment to my wife so much as what the meaning sex means to me. I have not met many men who share this sentiment. I have been in situations not as extreme but pretty close and have not faltered because of the parameters of what I trained my perception of sex to be. Many men given the opportunity would have sex if eagerly offered by a random attractive stranger if privacy or stds were not an issue and most women know this.
It’s a conundrum though. Men want sex and women want to please the men. Women compete against other women to win the men’s attention. Unless all women suddenly agreed to never provide casual sex, nor reveal their bodies for societies “entertainment” then nothing would change. Not to mention a great majority don’t want things to change. Sex is a fun built in drug. You get high whenever you want. When religion was forced or adopted you had common rules and concept as far as morality. But rules are loved to be broken, but once you throw the referees out with the rules you lose all structure to the game. Everyone does whatever they want until nature will regulate its self.
China is over populated and the rest of the world is quickly following. Outside of just two virgins having sex is the spread (with or without condoms) of hpv (a virus causing cancer in women) and many more severe stds. There are many more cons such as abortion, unwanted pregnancies, women trafficking, degeneration of self-image of women (having to be compared and valued by a system of physical attributes) prostitution, deviated sexual practices often attributed to pornography desensitizing conventional sex highs and requiring more “taboo” to stimulate the brain.
We have always heard that prostitution is the oldest profession. This is how we dehumanize ourselves into believing a woman is an Hors d’oeuvre passed around to be sampled from a tray. I think at some point in the future I would not be surprised if female flight attendants asked if the flyer would like a hand job with his pillow.
The only problem with Christianity is the “Christians” who don’t follow it. Meaning you have to actually BE Christian for it to work properly. Very few do. Many claim the title but don’t practice it because it requires discipline. Christ said if you look at a woman with lust you have already committed adultery. I have lusted after images and women in the past and thought it impossible to avoid but later learned it is not impossible, just not pleasurable to refrain from a lifelong habit lol honestly porn is the same.
No addict wants to stop their addiction lol come on that’s what people do when they know how difficult it would be to quit. Addicts of any craze will defend their position to death, we are all guilty of that. Denial is a wonderful thing in the life of the addict.
Addicts hate the problems that arise from an addiction, they hate the people they hurt or the money wasted but the actual addiction is a form of pleasure. Stop watching porn and you will no longer crave it. Giving in to cravings is much more pleasurable than abstaining from them but the only way to gain strength in anything is by practice
I used to loooove watching conventional porn, the variation of the situations but I gave it up because I know in my inner most being that we are not supposed to abuse our minds, souls, bodies and perception of sex which is wonderful between a husband and wife. Now it bothers me to see someone being used as a public semen dumpster. It is what it is, porn ranges from being urinated on, drinking bodily fluids, homosexual, pedophilia, snuff films, being defecated on, using fecal orifices, animals, torture, role playing like you are anyone but the person you are with lol….it just keeps getting further and further out there. Some people just like the romantic coupling, others pop with the exposure and become out there.
I know women give themselves freely to the concept of sexual liberation like men but that’s going backwards. I would not want to take advantage of someone who doesn’t fully grasp what it is they are doing because their perception isn’t mature enough to see it.
People should not conduct themselves as animals because viruses alone prove that although our bodies were designed similar to animals regarding sexual promiscuity, we as humans destroy our bodies with this behavior.
Women have been taught to be conservative because they have been oppressed by men but it’s the men who were cheated on this concept because no one cared about the value of their virtue. Sex is an addiction like anything else,
Lily 187
Well I have two sides of the story. Firstly, I left a man after 6 years who was so addicted to porn that it caused serious issues between us. My disgust for him was so strong after 3 years that I could not even get close to him. He would look at porn and then want to have sex with me in the same positions. I would go to his computer afterwards and would see the exact position of some naked woman that I had just been in. My disgust for him and sex became overwhelming and I had to leave. He was completely over the top and needed to see more and more. He did not see me as a human being but more of a channel for his over the top porn addiction. Nothing was ever enough. I am so glad to not be around this guy. He was a successful male with a successful business and “appropriate” relations with the community, but as soon as he got home he dove into his after hours life. It took me a long time to get over the feeling of disgust he created and yes “I allowed” (I take responsibility for staying. I didn’t understand the severity of his issues as I had never experienced it before). Now I am with a man with an average libido and he doesn’t look at porn and I prefer the later 100%. The constant degredation from the photos, positions, comparisons took a toll. I am healthier now and would never go back. That is one of my first questions when I was dating “how much porn do you look at in a week”? I’m a hot chick with a great career and I can financially and emotionally care for myself. I get asked out all the time, I still get ID’ed at the liquor store and I’m 38. I have a normal sex drive and want to engage at least a 3-4 times a week. I have clearly seen the negative effects of pornography on the mental health of an average man (my profession involves studying human behaviour btw).Never will I ever date a man that regularly views porn images. It is addictive and causes serious emotional implications in relationships where by men are unable to appreciate woman as human beings with an emotional and physical basis. It correlates to violence towards woman and thinking of them as mere body parts to masturbate to. Sex has become masturbatory. Not a reciprocal act.
Lily 188
I really want to know from the guys who agree with Evan, would you also be cool if your wives/girlfriends occassionally watched porn, fantasised about other men, went to male strip bars, flirted with other guys?
I want to know whether my guy is faithful because he doesn’t have other options and whether in an ideal world he would have his cake and eat it too?
Amelia2.0 189
I sincerely sympathize with your experience, but I think it’s a little extreme to write off porn-viewing as automatically debilitating for men. I think porn addiction tends to seize men who already have personal problems about themselves to begin with, and use porn like any other drug or substance in order to avoid dealing with reality. Yet there are also people can and often do have healthy interactions with porn while going about normal lives.
I can also tell you for a fact that my current SO is cool with me watching porn. How did I find out? I told him. You bet I was embarrassed to admit it, and that I have a small collection of softcore movies (that actually I think are more hilarious than arousing – and hilarious on purpose, not sadistically). Curse that madonna/whore bullshit!
His response? “Cool, let’s watch one.” Swoon!
That’s not to say it’s wrong to feel uncomfortable with it. You feel what you feel. Just be honest about it. I think the behaviors you mentioned become a problem if they lead to untrustworthy behavior – whether through hiding the risque behavior or shirking responsibility (and accountability) – and prevents the other person from making their own decision to keep or end the relationship. Or, in the case of your former boyfriend, he’s got a big problem about himself that he’s trying to medicate and avoid dealing with, and won’t let you in on it, possibly without realizing what he’s doing. These are the types of instances where the line must be drawn.
I also think your last question is a little unfair to your man. I would be offended if my SO thought I was being faithful only because I didn’t have other options. Are you somehow unsure about his respect for you?
elle 190
What bothers me is that men feel they are entitled to openly ogle women. A glance is one thing, but ogling and stopping in the street to turn around and watch a woman sashay away with your partner standing there is another thing entirely. This happened to me recently, and my God did my SO put up a stink afterwards. A tall, willowy brunette came toward our table, he locked eyes with her and turned his whole body around to watch her walk out of the door. I was so humiliated.
What I did I do?
I got up and left the restaurant and sat in the car. He pursued and I told him in no uncertain terms that what he did disrespected our relationship and me, that I wasn’t about to take that sh*t lying down, and that if he ever did it again I would leave the premises, period.
Naturally, he was extremely angry kept denying that he didn’t do what I saw, that he was looking for his friend who had left a good 20 minutes before (and let us know he was leaving, btw). I told him I knew that was bullsh*t, I know what I saw and I reiterated my point. I have had no staring incidents in my presence from him since.
So to other women who deal with a**hole behavior as I described (eyef*cking), do not sit and stew. Let him know you won’t tolerate it and what will happen and follow through.
Nancy 191
Divorced after 25 years of marriage and during those years I kept my eyes and heart home focused on my husband. Divorced I have expereince incredible liberation from the “way” I was taught to be a girl friend and wife (ie. faithful). Concerning the statement that a woman can be happy with just her man changing it up in the bedroom whereas a man would prefer to have a different woman every night …. What I have experienced over the last 2 years in dating again is that I was bored out of my head with just one man, he could not satisfy me. What I have further learned over the last two years is that I don’t think one man can satisfy a woman, she needs the variety so that she can experience all aspects of her being. Maybe we can begin to help change the message that we give to our young girls concerning “faithful”, they will be more happy with being pursued by multiple men and enjoying a much broader spectrum of experiences.
Joe 192
Men are very visual, looking is natural. As long as looking doesn’t lead to touching, it’s nothing to worry about. I have caught my girlfriend checking out guys but I don’t mention it. She knows I look at other women. We are secure enough to not let it bother us. On the other hand, if it led to cheating then would be a dfifferent story.
Chris Flaker 193
Beautiful Joe just beautiful, but that won’t fly for the majority of people.
Its also natural to feel jealous, guilty, insecure, resentful, unappreciated, and threatened.
It is true however if a person is secure that they won’t feel threatened or any of those other things, but then again a person can be very secure and just not like to be with someone who oggles other women because it may create a scene. It could be embarrassing if a person’s significant other is caught staring at a persons butt or breasts.
Your significant other is a reflection of you. If every time you go to a party and your woman is puking over herself all the time and face down on the floor it may embarrass you.
a simple glance is one thing but to adjust yourself for a better look is the lack of all restraint.
yes women solicit attention with provocative attire but its best for the woman not to restrict men from being men so as not to create a forbidden fruit appeal, and for men to try to limit their impulses when reasonable. because practice becomes habbit.
Basicly both men and women need to give and take a bit. if you are a woman and you are checking your husband eyes to see where he is looking then you’re the problem. Your husband’s vision does not belong to you.
if you are a man and your wife needs to flag you down to return your attention, then you are the problem because your wife should not have to fight for your audience. You should always make an effort to convince your wife or girl that she is worthy of all your interest.
Magdalena 194
“As long as he treats you well and doesn’t take action on his desires, you’ve got a good man whose desire for you is stronger than his real sexual impulse to be with someone else.”
What is any real woman thinking to even settle for an idea like this??
This out-dated notion that men are “holding the cards” has turned the world into a nightmare! And @Cat – if I sound bitter about men, I AM! And you should be, too! Look at the world and what a has they’ve made of it. Then on top of what warmongering, murderers and greedy bastards they are, we’re supposed to just shut up and accept this crappy behaviour?
Evan, I always land here looking for something else (like Jason Pelltier, or whoever that idiot is with the book. Psst..would love to crush his tiny skull and piss in his eye sockets), but I digress. These searches always brings me to this one conversation where men are “okay to have it all” while women accept it all and iron their shirt.
Maybe it’s just me and Gloria Steinhem. Maybe we’re the crazy ones, but I say “NO”. I am a sexual being and if men think they can actually “be good husbands and fathers even though they’re always desiring other women” – then FUCK THEM!! Who needs them? Women today often have higher paying jobs and can get the variety they want. What is all this about? It’s DISTURBING to see so many needy gals.
Karl R 195
Magdalena said: (#194)
“on top of what warmongering, murderers and greedy bastards they are,”
“would love to crush his tiny skull and piss in his eye sockets”
According to what you’ve said, you would love to murder Jason Pelltier. Other than the lack of opportunity, what makes you different from the male murderers you despise?
Magdalena said: (#194)
“I am a sexual being and if men think they can actually ‘be good husbands and fathers even though they’re always desiring other women’ – then FUCK THEM!!”
Given the rest of your post, I’ll assume you meant “fuck them” in the figurative and not the literal sense. (Your repeated poor choice of words is a constant source of amusement to me.)
I paid attention to the wedding vows my wife and I made to each other. Neither one of us pledged to become visually impaired. Neither one of us pledged to find all other members of the opposite sex undesirable. We both pledged to be faithful to each other despite what desire we may feel for others.
I see that as equality.
Magdalena said: (#194)
“Maybe it’s just me and Gloria Steinhem.”
Gloria Steinem is a feminist. Feminism seeks equal rights for women and men. If it’s okay for you and your best friend to constantly talk about the fantasy men (not your husbands) that you’d love to have bone you (see Magdalena’s post #127), then it’s equally okay for your husbands to have the same kind of fantasies about women.
You even gloated about how your friend is cheating on her husband (without his knowledge). Therefore, if you truly practice what feminists preach, you should be equally happy if your friends husband is secretly cheating on her.
You’re no feminist. You don’t want equal treatment for women. You want preferential treatment for yourself (and presumably other women).
Magdalena said: (#194)
“if I sound bitter about men, I AM! And you should be, too!”
All women should voluntarily choose to be as unhappy as you are? That has to be the least convincing sales pitch I’ve ever heard.
Magdalena said: (#194)
“These searches always brings me to this one conversation where men are ‘okay to have it all’ while women accept it all and iron their shirt.”
Can you find one spot in this entire blog where anyone besides you (#143, #194) has mentioned ironing shirts?
Nobody finds straw man arguments to be persuasive. (Actually, I’m not sure that your position even qualifies as a straw man, since even a straw man argument is “superficially similar” to the original point.)
By the way, I only purchase wrinkle-free shirts & slacks, so nobody irons mine.
Cat 196
Again, very well said Chris (#193). It’s about give & take on both sides. I think it’s very selfish of men to not care about how their actions (ogling) affect their woman. Other men on this blog have pointed out that it is their born right as a man to look/lust after other women whether or not it hurts their own woman or not. I disagree with that train of thought on a very basic level. It’s about treating others as you would like to be treated. Thanks for sharing your views!
skinnymini 197
@ ladies who mentioned women over 40 getting all frumpy, I notice that a lot of women that age are under enormous pressure to look dowdy and abdicate their sex appeal by other women. It’s expected that a woman that age cut her hair, wear unsexy “age appropriate” apparel and generally blend into the background so she’s not talked about as “trying too hard to stay young” “compete with her teenage daughter or 20-something daughter.” They’re told they can’t compete anyway, so why try and they should be ashamed to try. So 40 hits and a lot of women are confused about how they should be in their own skin. There’s also little time for primping anyway, between taking care of kids, husband, pets maybe even parents. If you have no time and support to not let yourself go, what are you supposed to do if hubby only wants porn or takes up with the hot 23-year-old coworker?
Steve 198
I am currently married to a woman who cheated on me…. 6 times.
I am STUCK because I have 2 children (theoretically) that I love very much.
So according to one poster I should be out cheating because tit for tat is ok..
Sorry I am a man of integrity – She has the problem. She likes to go out and drink, get drunk, and make poor choices. Now I fully admit after her last affair sex has come to a halt – I just feel repulsed by her now. Oddly, we had lots of sex before, during and after her other infidelities.
Do I love her? NO Not any more, how could I? I love my kids though, and laws are on the woman’s side in divorce. So the 3 businesses I have worked hard on over the past 2 years, which she has not been a part of would suddenly become half hers as well.
Trust me its not just men, its women too.
So maybe that married man isn’t lying… maybe his wife is like mine and has made it impossible to love her anymore.
My stats by the way just in case someone thinks I am not high value:
Tall 6’3″ (true measurement)
Dark hair, Blue Eyes, Alpha who is willing to be vulnerable, sensitive, romantic, talk on the phone whenever I am away, talk to her when I am home, I do my share of home work.
I am successful and smart… and yet I have been cheated on.
I could have relationships with much better women, but 11 years ago I made a bad choice at a young age, 23 and now I am stuck with it. I ENVY you as I read your dating problems.
I really hope people listen to EMKs advice, choose the right one, not the one that has only passion. I am an example of what life can be by NOT choosing the right qualities in a mate.
marymary 199
Steve
So sorry to hear this. There is a limit to how much a person can put up. You may have hit your limit.
If you are committed to staying with her then it’s hard to swallow but may be worth couples counselling. Or individual counsellng just for you to clarify your options. i agree that tit for that doesn’t work. It would only make a complex situation even more so.
She may divorce you anyway. It might be worth running this by a lawyer you trust rather than an ambulance chaser. Not to initiate proceedings but to get the lay of the land.
Chris flaker 200
Steve you often see guys who want women to have the sex drive of a man and now it seems that your situation is what happens when you do. lol Steve I know you gave your stats earlier to reinforce that fact that you are not the cause for your wife’s infidelity. I want to tell you that its not needed. Its not your fault that she does what she does. so long as you are not refuseing sexual rights to her as her husband, You are completely in the right. sure I’m sure you are not perfect and more likely than not failed to mention those things but regardless of any faults a cheater is a cheater. You are not responsible for someone being a cheater. You either are or are not a cheater. It has nothing to do with your partner and everything to do with what the marriage vow means to the one who breaks it. Its not a you thing since everyone in the world has faults. the reason a person should not cheat is not because they are with a wonderful person who treats them well, its because you made a vow to God, your spouse and the world. If you cant keep that promise you word is worthless.
Christ can fix anything. I will pray for you buddy.
sorry to say that men and women are on different sides of the sexual spectrum for a reason. I give you a lot of praise for your integrity and devotion to your children.
Michelle 201
So sorry to hear about your situation Steve, your advice is well taken: Choose Wisely.
Chris Flaker 202
some husbands are deliberately making a point that they don’t want their eyes chaperoned by their wives. Married men are not going to just stare at another woman while the wife is currently reprimanding him for it. This is something a guy would do to say to his wife that he doesn’t care if she is upset; he doesn’t want her controlling him in this way. This is a “yes I am looking at her and you can’t stop me thing”
Guys stare at beautiful woman because looking at them passing by is like looking at firework displays; you never get tired of it because each one is unique regardless if they are less amazing than the last one seen. You may have a favorite boom in the sky, but it doesn’t stop you from enjoying the less favored displays.
I believe some guys are passive aggressively saying “stop giving me penalty electric “shock” corrections whenever I look at a fire work walking by.”
I want to stress that I have never desired to have sex with another woman other than my wife. NEVER. EVERRRR.
Admiring a fire work and desiring sex with another woman (whether opportunity presents its self or not) are two different things. I do not covet these presentations. I am just awed by them. Women go through hell making a fantasy look real. Women put on makeup, work out, high heels, push up bras, spanx underwear, polish their nails, panties- looking swimwear, expensive hair styles, waxing, body lotions, skin cleaning, contour fitting jeans leaving little to the imagination, eyebrow shaping, wearing Christmas tree like- jewelry, small tea shirts exposing boobs, candy and food flavored perfumes. Women do all but wear a price tag and put parsley on their heads with a big red bow. A guy is not going to be able to appraise all of that effort in a simple glance. Most guys don’t even realize that the girl is wearing makeup foundation. They think she is really a heaven sent angel. Lol
That’s why guys stare. They try to absorb if what they are really seeing is even possible….well that and boobs and butts displayed out in public like it aint no thang.
Guys bathe, little cologne, little deodorant, shave and barber their hair for 10 bucks and we pray they floss. Lol any more than that and other guys shun you as a weakling, wanna be poser thinking you are good looking or a gay guy.
Even women without great bodies will go through great lengths for a good presentation. The girls who say they still get stared at and don’t wear make up or only wear t- shirts and jeans, never get my attention, unless them jeans are butt huggers. I think most women think they are not provocatively dressed because they are so used to dressing this way, or they are less provocative than what they could be.
I mean there will always be some guys who really don’t care what walks in front of them they look at everything. Like dogs they wanna hump anything they can hump with or without pulse. Those guys are not the norm. They are the shame of the rest of us. lol
its only natural to be as a woman in this kind of society because so much emphasis, objectification and importance is placed on female appearance like it’s the only attribute; this is not true, but women are led to believe this because of media.
Can guys resist looking at women? Yes. Is it fair for men to have to avoid solicited attention, or not be able to freely look in public where they choose? No. Should men be considerate of their company and be attentive to their female partner? Yes. Should women slap a guy on the back of the head for looking? No. A man can keep his eyes in his head because his eyes are in his head and they are meant to be used to see. Its presumptuous to believe we own each other’s sight.
What My purpose in writing in these kinds of topics is to share light to the women who believe a man’s look means more than what it really is. I explained the three types of looks, I explained the why and the what it means. I also explained to men what women feel when guys get ridiculously in to stare zone.
I get stared at but don’t bother me because nothing I don’t want seen is visible. People can stare at me because its their eyes. So long as they do not touch me. I only even notice they are staring if I first look at them to see it being done.
This is the world we live in. Men are sex driven so have forged a world where everything is sexual. Women fight this but others don’t and because of those who don’t, the sex way wins. Everyone who posts on this site (regardless of what they say), were drawn to this site for the same reason. So even if they say they support guys staring; deep down inside those women feel the same thing as everyone else. The guys were drawn to this site because they have either been scolded and were trying to see what others said, or cared enough for some sort of solution.
I’m on here because its important that some woman out there who is deeply hurt over and over by someone she loves, will understand that she doesn’t have to feel this way necessarily. I want that woman to understand what is happening with her man she loves, because most men do not articulate themselves well enough or care to analyze the situation enough as much as me to explain it to their women.
My wife is perfectly fine now that I have explained it. It makes me happy to know she is not in pain anymore. I spend all my time with her and would not trade her for anyone because she is not an object to be traded, but my family.
Most of your men feel the same way about you but have failed to articulate this the way that I have.
So God bless you women
and guys, if you look keep your hands out of your pants and wear your sunglasses