What Do Men REALLY Want From Women?

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Have you ever dated a guy and thought things were going GREAT between you, only to have him suddenly start being flaky, or stop calling, or vanish all together?

In my work as a dating coach, this is the number one complaint I hear.

You’re seeing a great guy and you THINK you’re getting close, but then he suddenly pulls away and you have NO IDEA what happened.

I can tell you what happened – if you’re ready to turn your love life around forever…

You see, I have a unique perspective – I’ve not only dated hundreds of women (before I became happily married) but I’m a coach for both women and men. And I’ve had countless nice, decent, relationship-oriented guys tell me why it SEEMED like they really liked a woman but then bailed on her.

After one date, after three dates, after three months… Amazingly, the reasons are always the same – and they were the very same reasons I’d pulled away from many surprised, confused women myself…

Here’s one thing that all of my work with smart, strong, successful women has brought to my attention – front and center:

The more you have going for you, the less likely you are to settle for less.

It’s not easy being a smart woman.

The more you have going for you, the less likely you are to settle for less.

I don’t blame you. Having high standards means that dating can be a challenge, and that most men are going to fall short.

If you’re like most women I know, you’ve agonized over this – wondering whether you’re too picky, too demanding, or maybe even unrealistic.

On one hand, you want to be open to all possibilities, on the other, you know what makes you tick – and it sure isn’t settling.

I’m guessing you concluded that the thought of being with the wrong man is far worse than the thought of being alone. No one can argue with that.

Yet the answer still isn’t satisfying. Being alone isn’t quite the life you had in mind, which is why the question still nags at you.

What areas, if any, can you compromise on?

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143 Comments »Filed Under Understanding Men

143 Responses to “What Do Men REALLY Want From Women?”

Helen 1

Evan, thanks for this. I had to laugh at its straightforwardness.

But is every man really as straightforward as you are? I have a male friend who criticized his ex-girlfriend because her grammar wasn’t as good as his. My husband has a male friend who broke up with his girlfriend because supposedly, she wasn’t up to his intellectual level. I have another guy friend who has complained about not being able to have deep discussions with virtually every single girlfriend he has had.

I think a lot of women reading your blog are concerned about more than just getting a 2nd date. They’re concerned about a long-term relationship. And from the guys I’ve known, it seems that they care more about sexiness and lightness when it comes to deciding to have LTRs with women.
Denise 2

#1 Helen

Good question Helen! My intuition would tell me that either men are coming up with these ‘reasons’ because they seem pretty straightforward, easy to say. AND/OR they can’t really articulate what it is about the woman that doesn’t sit right with them, but they know they don’t feel good consistently with her.

I wonder how what these men say to the girls they are breaking up with: “You have bad grammar, that’s why I’m breaking up with you”?
Honey 3

I don’t think that women are any different, actually. It still boils down to attractiveness and how easy the person is to be around – women are just more prone to list out all the reasons they don’t think someone is attractive or all the individual habits a person has that prevent them from being easy to spend time with. Perhaps women just need to focus on the bigger picture instead of the minutia of those two big categories, rather than using the minutia of one guy to rule out the next one.
Steve 4

@Helen #1

When I read Evan’s article my thought was “he stole my list!”. The other things you mentioned I would put under item #2, the “do I have fun when I am with her?”. I love to read and I love to talk. If I can’t get engaged in an interesting conversation with a woman number 2 will not happen. Getting back to Evan’s point, even if those women where more of a cognitive match for your friends, they still wouldn’t make it if they didn’t have the fun loving ATTITUDE Evan is referring to. Workaholics, going on a date to do a background check instead of having fun, complaining all of the time, etc.
Steve 5

Evan has a way of verbalizing things that otherwise nebulously float around in the heads of others. One of his best nuggets is the statement that women mistake what they want from men to be what men want from women.

I see this all over the place anytime a woman complains about not being able to get or hold a guy. ” – But I went to this school, I hold this job, I own this crap and I run marathons”.

Resumes turn women on, they don’t do much for men.

For some reason, probably narcissism, it doesn’t occur to these women that what they want isn’t what other people want.

When I hear the phrase “strong successful woman” I think of a woman who is a ball buster or a bore. Someone who might have time to date once a month in between obligations. Someone with a page boy haircut who lives in a business suit. Bleh
Diana 6

Perhaps I am feeling cynical today, but there are lots of attractive, fun to be with and easy to get along with women where guys still don’t stay around. I totally get what Evan’s saying, and I do think that men are exceedingly simplistic, especially when compared to women who often think far too much into things, but geesh. Guys sometimes don’t stay around for their own issues, too, but they don’t always recognize at the time what those issues are, or they lack the articulation to express them, or they fear expressing themselves, or they’ve been taught to hold back.

Alright, let me have it.
Karl R 7

Helen said: (#1)
“My husband has a male friend who broke up with his girlfriend because supposedly, she wasn’t up to his intellectual level.”

I’ve dumped a woman after one date for that reason as well.

But if you dig deeper, how I felt made a huge difference. The lady only discussed two topics for the entire date: how wonderful I was, and how much she loved Jesus. I spent most of that afternoon bored and frustrated. It was surprising how quickly I got tired of being told I was amazing.

Helen said: (#1)
“I think a lot of women reading your blog are concerned about more than just getting a 2nd date. They’re concerned about a long-term relationship.”

This has everything to do with a long-term relationship. I’ll quickly dump a woman if she shows a tendency to nag, criticize, lose her temper, be jealous, etc. If she does that regularly, then being around her is less fun than being single. There’s no way that I would subject myself to long-term unpleasantness in that kind of relationship.

Honey said: (#3)
“It still boils down to attractiveness and how easy the person is to be around – women are just more prone to list out all the reasons they don’t think someone is attractive or all the individual habits a person has that prevent them from being easy to spend time with.”

On a related note, I’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of having traits that make me easy to get along with.
Denise 8

#6 Diana

Well said and very true!

There has to be an ability on both people’s part to ‘do a relationship’.
Helen 9

Bottom line: men and women are pretty much the same, and there is not much need for a false dichotomy.

Why do I say this? Because even if one were to assert that men only care about 1) sexiness and 2) fun and easygoing demeanors, these same men are conveniently categorizing EVERYTHING under the second. They’re just less articulate about it, as Denise #2 and Honey #3 allude.

Just from the two men who have commented here already (and this is in no way an indictment against you, Steve and Karl; just calling it as it is), women are a dealbreaker if they:
1. Don’t read enough
2. Don’t talk enough
3. Aren’t a “cognitive match” for the man
4. Don’t have a “fun loving attitude”
5. Are supposed “narcissists” for thinking that a man might think the same way they do
6. Are strong or successful
7. Have a pageboy haircut
8. Work a lot
9. Wear business suits a lot
10. Keep talking about how great the guy is
11. Focus mostly on two topics of conversation

And women are somehow supposed to be more picky than men?
I conclude that men care a LOT more than just about two things, and that it’s not always as simplistic as it may seem.
Goldie 10

Helen, IMO your list still boils down to “not fun to be around”, with the addition that, the definition of “fun” is different for different people. For every guy who’d dump a woman for not reading enough, there’s another that’s terrified of women who read. etc etc.

So, in essence, yeah, men and women aren’t as different, everyone is looking for sexy and fun, and everyone means something different by that. Big news, I know

Karl, if someone spent the entire first date telling me how much they loved Jesus, I’d leave through the nearest door or window, whichever’s closest You have my sympathy
Diana 11

Excellent, Helen #9! Men just happen to umbrella everything in very simple terms, while women break down the details; in a nutshell, it’s often the very same message. I have noticed this huge communication difference between my two children. It tickles me!
detha 12

Diana #6. I can identify with everything you have written.

I have been following Evan’s blog for a while now, and agree with most things he has written however, I think it is very difficult to remain happy or upbeat when the man you are dating isn’t exactly handling his side of the relationship very well.
Ruby 13

I would add that I think that having some common interests is also important (see Steve #4′, and the ability to have an engaging, stimulating conversation). Other dealbreakers re: Karl R would be someone who nags, criticizes. is quick to anger, displays religious fanaticism, or is jealous.
Selena 14

Thank you Helen for smashing down a common fallacy!

I am so weary of people proclaiming “Men and women are just hard wired differently!” Nonsense. We are much more alike than we will ever be different – but perception is difficult to argue against. You however, did an excellent job. I bow to you.
Michael17 15

When it comes to whether I want to see a woman the 2nd time, Evan pretty much nailed it for me as a guy. That and she seems to be a good person. I don’t really have much of a list besides that. I mean, I could have a great time going out with a woman who tells me that she is still legally married during the first date (a deal-breaker for me), I will make a decision not to see her again, but it might be a head-over-emotions decision I’m sad to have to make. I mean, I can’t keep seeing her for that reason, but I still really liked her regardless.

(This open-mindedness isn’t always a good thing. I spent 2010 meeting and dating a lot of women. I learned an awful lot, but I ended up putting in a lot of energy towards women who weren’t right for me. I’m making it a point this year to be a lot more selective, to screen better early on.)

Getting back to Evan’s blog: Beyond that first or second date, it’s a little more complicated. Do I feel both challenged and supported by her (good), or do I feel smothered by her (bad). Do we get along as friends, and so we have similar views on the future?

Anyway, as far as making reasons… We men feel terrible about women hurting in our name too. Especially because as we generally do the pursuing early on, we feel that we were the ones who led you to this position. And so we make up something that is hopefully easy for you to take. It’s hard to tell a woman that (say) you don’t want to keep seeing her because she made reference on the 4th date to you coming on vacation with her and her family next year. Or that she isn’t what you had in mind physically.
Helen 16

Thanks, Diana and Selena! Yes, I’ve observed that inter-individual differences are much more important than gender-specific differences. For example, who are these women Evan mentions who care about whether a man’s belt matches his shoes? I certainly don’t identify with them, as I neither notice nor care about men’s belts or shoes.

Goldie, will you go on a date with me? I’ll start talking about Jesus, just for the fun of watching you try to exit the nearest window.
Denise 17

Men and women are EQUAL but instinctively different. We are primarily different in our reptilian brains, which is the part of the brain that we have no control over. In our mammalian and higher brains, you’re right, we are very similar. We have the same emotions, the same ability to commit or not commit or make decisions.

I think Evan’s talking at higher, more universal level concepts. Don’t you know women who say when they go on dates, but sorry, they want to know everything about him on the first date, because “she doesn’t want to waste her time”? Or women who say they didn’t date a man because he didn’t make X amount of money, etc.? Or like Evan points out, has a list a mile long that ONE man is supposed to fulfil? Or treats the man like an employee? Or scolds him on the first date for what he orders? Or women that are generally negative people and nothing is ever good enough, especially when they make a lot of money! Just things off the top of my head that I know for a fact happen.

The list of 10 things has more to do with personality and preferences. One man’s turnoff for Jesus talk could be another man’s dream come true! Although she STILL needs to make sure her man feels good being with her.
Selena 18

I don’t know about you Denise, but I don’t spend much time with people who don’t have control over their reptilian brains. And as wise as it is for a woman to make sure her man feels good being with her (this is new info? really?), it isn’t any more important than a woman feeling good being with the man she’s with. BOTH genders evaluate. BOTH genders may have criteria unique to them that factors into their evaluation process. If you feel comfortable believing men and women are fundamentally different, that’s your perception, it’s not universal.
Karl R 19

Helen said: (#9)
“women are a dealbreaker if they: [...] Aren’t a ‘cognitive match’ for the man [...] And women are somehow supposed to be more picky than men?”

I’ve dumped a few women because they weren’t intelligent enough. I’ve continued to date others who clearly weren’t my intellectual equals. The difference between the two groups is whether the intelligence disparity frustrated me, or whether it prevented me from respecting the woman’s thoughts and opinions. If I find the woman interesting to talk to despite the disparity, and if I respect her opinions, there’s no problem.

I also broke up with the most intelligent woman I ever dated. I had been dating her and another woman concurrently, and when it came time to make a decision between the two, I chose the one who was more fun to be with.

And I would say that difference does make women more picky than men. On this blog I have seen women rationalize “if he doesn’t have a degree, then he probably isn’t as intelligent as me, and therefore we won’t work out in the long run, so I won’t date him in the first place.” Even though intelligence is one of my Big Three criteria, I’ll date a woman who is clearly less intelligent than me until I determine what impact that has on the relationship.

Selena said: (#14)
“Thank you Helen for smashing down a common fallacy!”

She came up with a list of 11 “dealbreakers” (as she defined them) by combining comments from 4 different men (Steve’s comment (#4) about women not being a “cognitive match” referred to the men Helen (#1) mentioned.) Most women are able to come up with a longer list of distinct dealbreaksrs than that by themselves.

Furthermore, Helen listed separately several items that probably aren’t considered dealbreakers by themselves. (I’ll bet Steve (#5) would date some women who have pageboy haircuts, or some women who wear business suits to work each day, even if he doesn’t find either particularly attractive.) I would date a woman who primarily focused on two topics of conversation on the first date, provided both those topics were interesting, and provided I got the impression that she was capable of discussing other topics in the future. And telling me that I’m wonderful usually isn’t a bad idea.

The things I would actually list as dealbreakers are the things that make a relationship miserable: jealousy, criticism, temper, lack of trust, etc.
Steve 20

This thread is hilarious. Thanks Karl & Helen. Helen, you forgot one. Compliance. Now, go fetch me an organic, sustainable, cruelty free beer
Ms. Trace 21

I bet you that most men those days would be more proud to date a beautiful, easygoing, fun doctor than an beautiful, easygoing,fun flight attendant.
I’d rather be with a hot, easy going guy than an ugly,successful guy. Of course the ultimate dream is for the hot,successful guy, but these types have so many options that I’d just end up wasting my time with them.
Selena 22

Make it a beer and ribs for me. Which rules me out as a date for Steve.
Jadafisk 23

When the cognitive disparity goes in the other direction, it runs contrary to expected gender roles. If both partners have a mutually agreed upon approach to this, it can work, whether it means that the woman only discusses work/school/what she read last week with colleagues/friends and defers inside the relationship, or that the man takes pride in her intelligence and looks up to her, or they both accept that they complement one another in different ways and percieve one another as equals based on that… but often times, there’s a mismatch.

Also, am I wrong for believing that smart men want smart women when it comes down to who’s going to be raising their children? When it comes to marriage and education level, there are hypergamy trends correlated to the aforementioned gender roles that adversely impact the most educated women and the least educated men, but barring the outliers, people generally end up with people with similar credentials. How could this happen if men, the people who do the asking, don’t care? I think that education gets you in the door as a baseline qualification when it comes to LTRs with educated men, but at the end of the day they’re likely to choose the educated woman that makes them feel the best and the desire to “marry up” intellectually that women often have is absent. When he hears “MD”, he hears “she’s not going to be around much” instead of “wow”, but OTOH, he’s not going to marry the woman who works on the line at the meat packing plant, even if she looks like Selma Hayek. Huge hypergamy jumps by marriage are largely the stuff of Hollywood movies (the traditional female analog to the Horatio Alger tale) especially when the well-educated can purchase appearance upgrades.

Also, what do you do if you’re just not light? I’m snarky, judgmental, cynical and pessimistic. I embrace these characteristics and consider them integral to who I am, and I’ve carried them with me throughout my adult life. I was under the impression that I was okay because there are so. many. men who share those characteristics, especially among the intellectual/less religious set.
Michael17 24

#18 Selena–

I don’t think Denise was saying that. That’s not how i took it. We do not really control what we are attracted to–our reptilian brains–but we do control how we act upon that.

And yes, men and women are different at the reptilian level. Example: I do online dating. I wouldn’t mind meeting a girl who said, halfway through the first meet: “Hey let’s go back to my place and…have a glass of wine, shall we?”. We wouldn’t even have to be getting along that well. And you know what–most of my male friends feel likewise as I do. The funny thing is though, you probably don’t share this viewpoint. You might not appreciate a guy asking you to come back to his place during the first meet, except *maybe* if you were getting along extremely well. Maybe. Most of my female friends wouldn’t appreciate it. Strange.

Why is it then that the men wouldn’t mind going back, but the women do?
Annie 25

I have to say I think one of the biggest mistakes we make in terms of long term relationships, is to love some-one only because of how they make us feel. We aren’t loving some-one for who they are. We are only in love with our own feelings. Narcissism 101.

Like the woman who say’s, I love him because he makes me laugh, or I love him because he makes me feel protected, or I love him because he buys me nice things? What happens if he goes through a bout of depression, loses his job and can no longer “make” you feel those things? Do you still love him?

Or the man that say’s I love her because she makes me feel like a stud or I love her because I feel needed around her. What happens if she goes through a bout of depression and no longer desires sex, or achieves greater success and you no longer feel needed?

When you love some-one only because of how they make you feel, not because of who they are, what I see happening is people then spending their entire lives, trying to manipulate the other into making them feel good. IE I’ll do this nice thing for you, so you’ll in turn have sex with me and make me feel good.

I have yet to see a relationship work long-term, when this is it’s basis. Love is an extention of one-self, not just a feeling.

I agree with Helen. Men have just as many criteria as women do. Why is it that men seem to be so hell bent on trying to convince everyone that they are simple creatures when you aren’t? What is up with that?
Annie 26

@24

Why would a woman WANT to go back is the question?

Going back for a glass of wine, obviously implies sex. If you don’t think so, then there’s your first mistake.

So since it implies sex, or physical intimacy of some kind:

1. Why would we choose to have sex with a man we don’t know and may not like yet?
2. Why would we put ourselves at physical risk with a male we don’t yet trust?
3. Why would we choose to risk pregnancy and STD’s with a man We’ve known for a couple of hours? Will you take care of us and the child that may result in such a union?
4. Why do you expect such automatic trust, when it has not yet been earned?
5. Why would we risk emotional attachment that physical intimacy can bring us, for no reason?
6. Why would we be willing have sex with a man when there is no guarentee that he cares enough about us to bring us pleasure?

Why do men even NEED to ask this question?

Physical intimacy for women is in many way’s the same as emotional intimacy for men. It takes us both time to open up to it and trust each other because of the power it has to hurt us.

I don’t expect a man to share all his thoughts and feelings to begin with, so how can a man expect such intimacy from me, intimacy that may even result in a child(although unlikely), after I spend a few hours with him?

Sex is just not the same for men as it is for women!! It’s no-ones fault. I don’t blame men for taking time to open up to me emotionally, so I hope you don’t blame women for feeling the same way sexually. Just try and understand it.
Still Looking 27

I agree with Evan’s assessment that men have two basic criteria: ”is she sexy and is she fun to be around?” if, and only if, the men are looking for a fling or a casual dating relationship.
If I’m looking for a LTR, however, traits/quirks that are irrelevant during a casual relationship become much more important. Sexy/fun = chemistry and that chemistry is the initial bar that must be reached to lead to a second date.
Compatibility is much more important than the initial chemistry. I don’t have a laundry list of what makes a woman desirable/compatible, I do, however, have a list of traits that are red flags or unacceptable.
I don’t care if a woman makes $35k or $135k, but if she opts not to work because she lives off of alimony & child support – I’m not interested.
I don’t care if a woman drives a Toyota or a Lexus, but if she drives a new Lexus but makes $35k (lives beyond her means) – I’m not interested.
I don’t care if a woman drinks, but if she drinks to excess on a first date – I’m not interested.
I love kids but I don’t want to raise anymore children so if she has kids who will not be graduating high school in a a few years – I’m not interested.
I could go on and on but hopefully you see the point. Sexy/fun is great for a fling but for a long term relationship, compatibility is essential. I’m sure every guy who reads this blog could also come up with a lengthy list of red flags or deal-breakers. Maybe the difference between men and women is men are interested unless a negative exists whereas perhaps women are not interested unless certain positive traits exist. Is there really a difference? I don’t think so.
Zann 28

How about this possibility? Men like to compartmentalize, downsize, and simplify their perplex mish-mash of desires, drives, and emotions because they’re basically…a little bit lazy? Or at least that’s the way it often seems to the woman (me). But before you guys go get all in a lather about the term “lazy,” what I mean by that is a tendency to choose the path of least resistance. And sometimes, that’s probably a very wise thing to do & truly sometimes I wish I could be more like that. But it’s not meant to be. Regardless of any scientific, anthropological, sociological, physiological, or even astrological evidence to the contrary, the majority of the men I have known over the years always prefer the easier path (evasiveness, denial, pretend-you-didn’t-hear-that, avoidance, quick-change-the-subject, remain ambiguous) than the stickier path — the path he knows he’s on when you can tell by the panicked look on his face that he’s thinking, “Oh sh*t, no matter how I answer this grenade of a question she just threw me, it’s not gonna be pretty.” I don’t know about the rest of the world, but in my world, men on dates, or in the dating stage, generally prefer to not analyze much of anything non-linear with women, especially if it’s in any way based on subjective stuff like emotions, values, tastes, opinions, judgments, loyalties, etc. because they don’t want to wind up looking like the bad guy. In other words, they don’t like conflict, because it means trouble, it means difficult, when what they’re going for — at least when they’re trying to get to know you — is easy. It’s not a matter of intelligence, depth, or complexity; and it doesn’t apply to every single man who walks the earth, but my experience with men, based on their behavior and on what they tell me themselves, is that the majority of them want to feel acceptance in it’s most palatable form. Especially in the beginning. As relationships develop, they naturally become more complex & knarled & sometimes even richer (imagine that!). But I agree with Evan — in the beginning, women who come to a first date with an agenda, a preconceived notion of what the perfect guy will need in his portfolio, and how excited he needs be about her achievements, are going to continue to wonder why men are put off by that and disappear.
Jadafisk 29

“Why is it that men wouldn’t mind going back when women do?”

Um, perhaps because women feel obligated to take their physical safety into account?
Selena 30

@Michael17 #24

Is it common for you and your friends to invite a woman you’ve only known a half hour, whom you aren’t particularly getting along with, back to your place for a glass of wine? Sounds like fantasy to me. And if you are NOT doing that, what do you suppose your reasoning is?

I’ve known far too many individuals of both genders to buy the “hard wired differently” supposition. There seem to be greater similarities and differences based on how individuals were raised, encultured, the influence of peer group at different points in life. Relying on the so-called “reptile part of the brain” seldom results in social success.
hunter 31

Anxiety level is very high on the first three dates. Daters need at least three dates to get to know each other, unless you are a serial/lifelong/good looking dater that knows someone on the first date.

Aren’t
hunter 32

I agree with Evan, men look for someone that is real and available.
Denise 33

#20

Yes dear, in a minute, going to put my French maid constume since I know how much you like me parading around in that!

#18 Selena

Neither do I Selena, and that’s a good thing! My only point there was to remind folks that there are important differences between men and women. I see there is a tendency (which I have been guilty of in my un-educated past!) for women to treat men like women, then get super frustrated when they don’t act like women!

From what I can see, we’ve morphed this thread to talk about the friendship phase of a relationship. How does the person deal with emotions? Are they upbeat and positive? etc., etc. (EVERYONE wants to be with someone who is easy to get along with, happy, optimistic–those are the folks that attract others, of the opposite sex and friends of the same sex) Intelligence and all that was listed was based on the ‘eye of the beholder’ and part of preferences, all of which are unique and part of our personality.

#23 Jadafisk

Also, what do you do if you’re just not light? I’m snarky, judgmental, cynical and pessimistic. I embrace these characteristics and consider them integral to who I am, and I’ve carried them with me throughout my adult life. I was under the impression that I was okay because there are so. many. men who share those characteristics, especially among the intellectual/less religious set.
Wow, sounds like a fun time hanging out with people as you describe Jadafisk!

The only other thing I would comment on is that men want their women to be like women, not to be like men. That’s what this article is saying–women think that the characteristics that men value like being successful in their career, climbing Mt. Everest, etc. are what makes them attracted to a women. When, in reality, men don’t really care about all that.
JoJo 34

Evan makes a point about being easy going by giving an example about not complaining when a guy is 10 minutes late. I dated a guy who was always late when we had plans. I understand that things happen, but all I asked was for a phone call letting me know what was going on. If I communicated this to him in a nice manner, but he kept doing it, don’t I have the right to get upset?
He know how much I love when he speaks Spanish to me. We were at my friends house and I noticed how he would answer her in Spanish, but would answer me in English. Keep in mind that my friend does speak English. I asked him nicely, on the side, why do you answer her in Spanish and not me? He said he didn’t realize he was doing it. I let it go. Later on he had a full conversation with her in Spanish and acknowledged me in English. I felt uncomfortable and bad because he was sharing something with her that he could have shared with me as well. When we left, he asked what did he do know. I told him again how he spoke to her in Spanish and not to me. It lead into an argument and a week later he broke up with me.
How easy going can you be if the guy keeps doing the things he knows you don’t like?
Steve 35

Jadafisk, thanks for the new word

http://www.yourdictionary.com/hypergamy

Hypergamy
marriage with a person of a higher social class or position
AJ 36

@JoJO He was going to break up with you anyway. Not because of the argument or you being upset If he were in to you he would have tried more to please you. Clearly he wasn’t trying. That’s a hold other column.

I think the basic message is that what women think men value the most they don’t. Yes being smart and educated and active are good qualities but initially guys want something more basic. An attractive easy to be with person.
Karl R 37

Zann said: (#28)
“In other words, they don’t like conflict, because it means trouble, it means difficult, when what they’re going for — at least when they’re trying to get to know you — is easy.”

You’re correct. And that becomes even more important if I’m considering spending the future decades with you. If I’m looking forward to 40 years of conflict, I’ll find someone who is easier to get along with.

If you can’t let small things slide during the first few dates (when we assume you’re on your best behavior), we have no expectation that you’ll do so in a long-term relationship. And I’m under no illusions that my bad habits will become more tolerable after you’ve dealt with them for a few years.

Annie said: (#25)
“Men have just as many criteria as women do. Why is it that men seem to be so hell bent on trying to convince everyone that they are simple creatures when you aren’t?”

What makes you think that an extensive list of dealbreakers is a sign of complexity? I generally see it as a sign of simplistic thinking.

Let’s say that an agnostic woman has a relationship with a devout Christian, and the relationship breaks up due to conflicts over religious beliefs. To prevent having this problem in the future, she decides to rule out all practicing Christians (nonobservant ones are still okay). I’m a Christian who is active in a Unitarian Universalist church, so I’m ruled out automatically. My church is not a typical Christian church. I’ve dated three women at my church who described themselves as pagan/wiccan, secular humanist, and agnostic, respectively. The rigid criteria (no practicing Christians) fails to address the complexities of personal belief and tolerance.

Religion is just a convenient example. I could make similar examples for age/maturity, attractiveness, race/culture, etc.

I have some criteria, but it may be in my best interest to ignore my criteria (something I have done consciously and repeatedly). And most of my male friends have ignored their criteria for specific individuals as well (whether they did so consciously or subconsciously).

Jadafisk asked: (#23)
“I’m snarky, judgmental, cynical and pessimistic. [...] I was under the impression that I was okay because there are so. many. men who share those characteristics,”

Do you enjoy being with a man who is snarky towards you? Do you enjoy being judged by others? Do you appreciate it when other people assume that you’re always motivated by self-interest?

If both people are snarky, the situation is exacerbated. One person is snarky to the other, so the other person is snarky back. That’s the kind of situation that rapidly escalates a small issue into a big conflict. There are similar issues when both people are judgmental (or hot tempered). Some bad traits are even worse when both partners share them.

Cynicism and pessimism don’t bode well for long-term relationship possibilities. The people who assume that everyone else is acting purely out of self-interest can hold that belief because that’s a perfect description of their own behavior. And a pessimist is unlikely to fight as hard to save a marriage (when they expect trouble to lead to a bad conclusion) as an optimist would (who believes that everything can turn out well if they work to correct the situation).

Jadafisk said: (#23)
“I embrace these characteristics and consider them integral to who I am, and I’ve carried them with me throughout my adult life.”

Let’s say that a man has poor hygiene. He embraces that characteristic and considers it to be integral to who he is. He’s carried that trait with him througout his adult life…

… most people would say that he can keep his filthy, smelly, lonely ass away from them.

You don’t have to change. But I don’t have to accept you the way you are either.
Steve 38

Jadafisk #23

Also, what do you do if you’re just not light? I’m snarky, judgmental, cynical and pessimistic.

I don’t think anyone wrote “light”…but fun. I can be those things in a conversation too and I enjoy a conversation with a woman who gets into that kind of humor as well.

Jadafisk #29
Um, perhaps because women feel obligated to take their physical safety into account?

I’ve been impressed with every post you wrote in this thread. You live on planet Earth.
BeenThereDoneThat 39

@ 17
I have gone back to a guys place after a first date with a guy I met online. The reason why it makes women uncomfortable is because one of the times it happened, we went back to his place, were watching a movie on the couch and all the sudden, he’s holding me down, trying to get my pants off of me. While it only happened once out of however many times I’ve gone back to a guy’s place – the once was attempted rape. How many of your guy friends have had or are likely to have had that happen.

For the record, I have gone to a guy’s place on a first date since that time as well. And no, I’m not going back to have sex on a first date.
BeenThereDoneThat 40

Sorry,
I was answering Michael17′s question on #24.
Selena 41

@#33

Since I treat individuals as individuals I don’t understand this “women who treat men like women, then get super frustrated when they don’t act like women!” thing.
Evan Marc Katz 42

@JoJo – Ah, yet another case of a happy long-term relationship derailed by a man…who fails to speak Spanish on cue?

Put it this way, if you think it’s awful to put up with such behavior, imagine what it’s like to be the man who has to deal with your constant criticisms. I’d say he’s got a lot more to put up with than you do.
JoJo 43

At Evan, I think that was a bit harsh. I wasn’t upset at the fact that he didn’t speak Spanish on Q. It was the fact that he was sharing that with my friend and couldn’t share that with me. I don’t see how that’s being critical. How would you feel if your wife didn’t give you something you like, but yet was giving it to your guy friend right in front of you. He spoke Spanish to his family and I would never question that. This was my friend; someone that he barely knew. It’s like me cooking his favorite meal for his guy friend, but would make excuses not to do it for him. I think that’s just being spiteful; something I could never do!
And I don’t see how asking to let me know if you’re running late is being critical. It’s about having consideration for the other person.
Ruby 44

I’m confused. The beginning of this article talks about a woman’s frustration at having a man she has been seeing become flaky, pull away, or vanish. In his response EMK talks about his reasons for not wanting to go on a SECOND date with a woman, i.e., she wasn’t physically attractive to him and wasn’t fun to be with. Fair enough. But isn’t there a difference between a FIRST date, and say, the FIFTEENTH date? If you’re dating someone for a few months and he pulls away it’s because he’s suddenly decided that you are not physically attractive and not enough fun? I would tend to think the reasons would be more complex at this stage and have to do just as much with a man’s personal issues as with any deficiencies he finds in the woman.
Michael17 45

Jadafisk #29 and Selena #30: My point exactly. Many guys would not mind that scenario. But women almost universally do. The difference is in our reptilian brains. Women are far more concerned for their safety than men are.

If you invited us back to your place, we’re not too concerned about you trying to rape us.
Steve 46

I’m still harping on it, but I am still amazed that “He’s Just Not That Into You” made so much money for basically putting a common sense observation into print.

Looking at the last few threads I think I can see why. Evan posted a pretty good thumbnail view of how men operate. That information can be used by women to adjust how they date men and get more of the success they want out of dating. Instead, several women posted their subjective opinions about reality, opinions that pleased them and other women congratulated her for “clearing it all up”.

Women tend to tell other women what they want to hear and what will make them feel better, rather than telling them the truth which can be used to get better results.

That is why someone can get rich by telling American women the obvious truth, because other women will tell women what they want to hear.
Selena 47

I’d just be curious as to why he speaking Spanish to the other woman and not to the woman he was with whom he knew enjoyed it. Did you ask him? Did he end up dating the other woman?
JoJo 48

I did want to mention that he had just gotten out of a divorce from his wife who was extremely jealous and who was also cheating on him. The ironic thing was that he didn’t want the marriage to end, but she did. I heard a lot of negativity about her and how she’ll get what she deserves. He seemed so bitter toward her, but yet wanted to stay in the marriage.
Vox 49

@jojo #34 – wouldn’t it have been easier to just join the conversation, rather than to just sit there and stew? It sounds like you wanted him to speak to you in Spanish as proof that he cared about you.
JoJo 50

At 47, no he didn’t end up dating her. And thanks for understanding the ovbious because that’s exactly what I was curious about.
At 49, I didn’t need him to speak Spanish in order to prove he cared for me;That sounds ridiculous. When I got in the conversation, he acknowledged me in English.

Another example was that he suffered high blood presurre and high colesterol. He didn’t want to take medication for his blood pressure. He used to drink so much soda and ate a lot of sweets. I expressed concern about his diet knowing his condition. We were on the phone and he was at McDonald’s ordering a salad. He made sure that when he ordered the soda, he put the phone right on his mouth so that I could hear him. I know he did it on purpose and that upset me.

I do understand that being critical is a major turn off to a guy. My point was that if a guy continues to do things that he knows you do not like, what does that say about him? Can you blame the woman for getting upset?
Vanessa 51

JoJo, I think the red flag with your boyfriend was the bitterness toward his ex-wife and his willingness to stay in an awful relationship, not the fact that he didn´t speak Spanish with you!
Liz 52

#46

I was amazed at He’s Just Not That Into You too. When I read it, I thought, “Well, this has just cleared up men for me. Now I get it.” And I have never had trouble understanding men since. I thought other women would come to the same epiphany. But, listening to women ever since (including on this blog) indicates that people will take a piece of really helpful logic that could significantly improve their lives, and instead of using it to their own benefit, twist it around and try to disprove it because it’s not what they want to hear. It’s like they’d rather be right than be happy.
Liz 53

Whoa, JoJo. Seems like you read too much into tiny details.
Goldie 54

Hmm… JoJo, sounds like you were trying to act like a mother to that guy. You are not his mother. When he asked “what did I do now?” that was a dead giveaway that he doesn’t like being pushed around.

“I do understand that being critical is a major turn off to a guy. My point was that if a guy continues to do things that he knows you do not like, what does that say about him?”

It depends on what is it that you do not like, the severity of these things, and how long the list of those things is. When my now-ex told me once that he’d ordered “some alcohol online, because it was a good deal” and it later turned out to be five boxes of tequila, I guarantee you I told him what I thought about it. If, on the other hand, he’d ordered a soda, even though I do not like soda and do not keep any in the house… I wouldn’t have even noticed. Pick your battles.
Denise 55

#50 JoJo

There’s an important concept that really helped me once I really ‘got it’. We CANNOT control another human being.

That dovetails into accepting someone for exactly who they are.

This really is all on you I’m sorry to say.

1. Ultimately, this man is nowhere near ready to be in a relationship, hopefully that was a lesson on not to date a man who is separated or just out of a long relationship/marriage (goes for women too, but we’re talking to a woman). Sometimes we think we’re ready, but we’re not.

NOTE: this man sounded immature anyway, I wouldn’t be able to take that guy for more than hour much less more than 1 date! Choose wisely!

2. You don’t agree or support his lifestyle choices, i.e. eating, but then you want him to change it to make you happy. That is your preference and you don’t agree with his choices, nothing wrong with that! The problem is you expect to control another person’s choices on how they want to live and if they don’t, they aren’t showing you ‘respect’ and how much they care for you. Huh? That’s not how it works. We do NOT control other people, period.
Selena 56

Well JoJo…sounds like in some ways the guy was “difficult” (the bitterness yet attachment to ex-wife, complaining), not always fun and easy. In short, you didn’t feel good about being with him and let him go. You don’t happen to have a Y chromosome do you?
Steve 57

I think the point of this thread was lost. If you are a woman who just started dating a guy who is attracted to you and you would like him to continue asking you out try being company that is fun to keep.

AKA do the Google background check before you leave for the date and open up your attitude to a good time.
Steve 58

I don’t think either party was completely at fault with the “JoJo affair”. If I was in her position I would have felt ignored or left out. If I was her dude, I would have felt it was no big deal and would have resented being nagged. I think it was just a matter of two people not being right for each other. That is what dating is about, trying people on for size. To paraphrase the good Dr. Seuss you find what you are looking for by first finding where it is not
Selena 59

@#57

Being company that is fun to keep goes both ways. That’s the point of some of the female commenters.
Denise 60

#59

Agreed, well put! I believe Evan’s original point is that women miss that and focus on the wrong things in regard to what attracts men. And, let’s be honest, it’s mostly women who come to the first date with a laundry list of interrogation questions!

#58

True Steve, but in this dating world, especially women have to be saavy. If he does that something like that at the beginning of a relationship, is it going to get any better?

What happens often is women get caught up in the emotion of the relationship, often putting a square peg in a round hole, trying to change him, make it work, whatever, then it gets to the point of ‘sunk costs’, and they feel like they are stuck. They’ve been with this guy so long, they don’t want to be alone, so they stick it out. He doesn’t cut the strings either, which is the downside of men…so both of them are miserable.

I have not gone out on a second with a man because he made me wait to get a drink when he had one in front of him and walked in front of me out the door when we left. Was he a good guy? Yes Is he the guy for me? No Why would I even start down the path with him?

K, people, I’m done with this thread!
Annie 61

@ Karl #37

Hehe, if there’s one thing men are good at, it’s reducing complex issues/feelings/situations down to a simple few words. I am amazed at men’s ability to do this. I’ve tried, and failed.
Jadafisk 62

Michael, I think it’s because we live in a world where the reality is that men are more physically dangerous to women and other men alike than women are to men.

I was on a first date with a very foreign guy (it was like, his second week in the U.S.), and he asked me back to his house. In his country, because of the theocratic totalitarian regime that governs every facet of public life, people do most of their socializing in their homes. I knew because of this, he could see the invitation as meaning virtually anything, and not purely restricted to the sexual connotations that surround such an invitation in America. I was totally curious about going back, and almost did it because of this, because hey, we could just hang out and play X-Box, for real. But I decided against it, because if something did go down, I knew that those connotations would still be present… in the minds of an American jury. In college, a fellow student, yet virtual stranger came up to me on the street and asked me to go back to his place to watch a movie. I did. How did this happen? Because I was like, 97% sure he was gay. How does the lizard brain take such things into consideration?

Karl R, I’m not snarky towards my dates (I have friendships like that, but my ideal romantic relationship is different) and I don’t have to judge them all that much. Approval of one another is a baseline prerequisite. I *love* to recreationally argue, but I never do this with people I’m dating because I feel it’s counterproductive. The occasions where I would be tempted to do so are few and far between because I only date people who largely agree with me. I don’t actually get lonely… my pursuit of relationships is based on intense physical attraction to (some) men. Also, a person shedding their entire personality and outlook on life is a little different than shedding one’s bathing rituals, unless there’s a spiritual component involved in the latter.
Evan Marc Katz 63

“My pursuit of relationships is based on intense physical attraction to (some) men”

Thank you, Jadafisk, for the surest recipe for relationship failure that has ever been written.
starthrower68 64

I had to give this topic some thought before posting. Annie brings up some valid points regarding feelings in #25. I have dated a guy or two where I “felt” on top of the world around them, but saw they would not be a good bet for a partner. Even though what I felt in their presence was heady and intoxicating, wisdom had to win out. I also recognize that it’s a bad idea to not give a guy a chance who doesn’t give me those same feelings because he might really be a good guy, and may end up being what I need rather than what I want. What I’m getting at, is feelings can be guides, but they are fickle. A woman can be the hottest, most easy going and fun chick that ever was, and a man might like her one day and forget her name the next. I’m not saying ladies shouldn’t put their best foot forward, but let’s realize that real love is unconditional and there’s nothing we can do to earn it or conversely, lose it.
JoJo 65

First off, I’m sorry if it seemed like I was taking away from this post. I think that Evan was very informative, as usual, and letting us women understand the 2 most important qualities that men look for in women. Maybe I took it far, but all I was trying to convey was that it’s hard to be easy going when your partner does things purposefully to annoy you. I did all the things Evan advocated such as prepare is coffee in the morning; go do his laundry for him; I would give him back rubs when he came home; I even sacrificed my needs of not spending more time with him due to the fact that he worked 2 jobs. IIt got to a point when I could only see him on the weekends because his mother and sister were staying at his house and I didn’t feel right sleeping there especially when his mom and sister were sleeping in his room and he on the couch. He didn’t feel comfortable sleeping over my place when my mom was there. It was hard for me, but I accepted it.
I don’t think that showing concern for someone’s health is being controlling. I cared about him and it was hard for me to see a man walk around with high blood pressure and not take medication for it because he didn’t feel like worrying about taking a daily pill. I express my concern once. If he chooses not to take my advice then that’s on him. I communicated things to him in a nice and respectful manner. I didn’t tell him not to order a soda if he felt like having it. Just don’t purposefully make it a point to make sure that I hear you’re ordering something that you know I had my concerns about. There were times when he would say “and guess what I’m having” with sarcasm. I wouldn’t say anything. He even imitated his mom walking in on us during intimacy. Again, this annoyed me. He was too immature, so it was hard for me to be easy going at times. In the end, I’m the one that got dumped, but yet he was willing to stay in a marriage with a person who was controlling and who was having an affair with another man.
I guess like Evan said the person who dumps you is not you’re future husband. I’m sure I could have handled certain things in a better way, but to say that he had to put up with more is unfair. Yes, getting involved with someone out of a divorce is definitely a red flag, but I wanted to give things a try without dismissing who I thought was a good person. I just wish that people wouldn’t judge me and make it look as if it were all my fault when you don’t know the whole story.
BTW: love the book He Just Not That Into You”
Diana 66

The issue I take with this article is that it’s sending the message to women that all a woman has to do to keep the guy around is be attractive, fun and easy going, and that is not entirely true; it’s only part of the equation. I like Still Looking’s (#27) message, too.

My “list,” if I were to even think of it that way, is very simple, and based on those qualities that make for a truly great partner. I lived for years with a great partner and I know what those qualities are, and they basically speak to being a good and decent human being which has nothing to do with whether his shoes match his belt. He could be impeccably dressed and be a wife beating scum bag. People are too easily carried away and influenced by the outside packaging. This is how men sometimes end up with great-looking bitches, and women end up with cold, egotistical workaholics.
Steve 67

@Liz post #52
Liz;
You have an extra smart gene in your somewhere that most American women do not have. Please make sure you have becoming a mother on your life time to-do list. We must keep that in the gene pool.
Steve 68

@Selena & Denise   post #58, #60
You gals are missing the point.   You can’t control other people, especially in the first few dates. Evan’s advice is about what women can do for themselves for more dating success.   The assumption being that women who will ask for or use this advice are dating a guy they find satisfactory and would like the guy to keep asking them out.
The assumption is that if women/his customers, don’t enjoy the company of a particular man, they will not accept his invitation for another date. Problem solved.
The “what about men?” lament doesn’t apply.   As Evan has correctly written a number of times, no dating coach can change what is out there, s/he can only give advice on how to deal with it in a better way.   Evan’s advice is for women on how to hold onto a guy they are just getting to know and that they like.
hunter 69

“Feelings are fickle,” yes, that is why some therapists don’t care about your feelings.
Steve 70

Annie #61 wrote
Hehe, if there’s one thing men are good at, it’s reducing complex issues/feelings/situations down to a simple few words.

In my non-expert opinion one of the biggest mistakes people make in regards to their happiness is that they confuse feelings for being reality versus only being reactions to reality. Women tend( I wrote tend ) to be more emotional than men, so they kept swept away by their emotions more, before they slow down and put the situation into those “simple few words”…..which are often useful for seeing what is happening and dealing with it in a better way.
starthrower68 71

I didn’t say feelings weren’t important. I re-read my post and I’m pretty sure that isn’t what I said. I said they are guides. But if you’re completely ruled by what you feel, then you’re not going to be a very steady or solid person. Do you think people who have been married for a long time felt like being married, or even liked their spouse every single day? For the majority, I doubt it. Hunter your use of sarcasm suggests you’re just looking to be contentious.
starthrower68 72

Nevermind Hunter, now that I re-read your post, it’s my mistake. It’s difficult to tell sometimes in black and white.
Selena 73

@Steve #68

Denise & I already KNOW you can’t change another person – in one of her posts on this thread she specifically says that. I already know (and probably have since high school) that men like sexy and easy going when it comes to women, particularly early on. Seriously, DUH! But it’s alot easier to do sexy and easy going when you are getting it in return. And as evidenced by you and other males who write in the comment section, you may put what turns you off a particular woman/women in general under one umbrella, but your reasons are as numerous and individual as any women’s.

This is the second blog post Evan has done on this topic where you have repeatedly commented (and sometimes snidely) that what Evan wrote should not be questioned, disected, or debated. I read this blog because I enjoy the perspectives of the other readers in the comment section – including yours generally. If all the comments were simply “Spot ON EMK!” I would have quit reading here long ago. But on this particular topic, when women suggest they also want sexy and easy going, when they point out MEN very often have much more criteria than just those two, it seems to hit a nerve with you. Why is that?
Andrea 74

I don’t have any argument with what has been said, but wouldn’t life be easier if we all got to be the person who could be whatever they are and didn’t have to self-censor or change. I’m not equating the advice given here with the idea that I can’t be who I am, but I’m just saying that some people get away with putting all of the cards on the table so to speak.
I can totally see the logic in being Miss Easy Breezy, and I do think that Jojo’s example is a combination of the guy not being right for her but also her inability to stop wanting to control him, because if I choose to change anything about myself, even if it is for the “better” it needs to be because I want to and should NEVER be a sign that I do or don’t love someone else. I don’t even see how a man or woman should eat better as proof that he cares about YOU. That is beyond self-centered. And the snide remarks were likely his way of getting back at you. Not the best way to express his feelings, but anyone reading the story can see how that would be annoying.
But back to my point, clearly some women and men get to be as horrible and difficult as they want to be and still have people lining up to be with them, and truthfully, no amount of being nice, understanding, or making him feel good can compete with that. I definitely know plenty of women who can make all kinds of demands of men just like Jojo tried and still get people to commit to them for years and years. And of course, if they were giving advice, it would be along the lines of controlling everything your man does and never “letting” him do anything he wants.
For the rest of us, there is this blog and others like it…
Venus 75

I liked the way Evan was able to categorise men’s needs into two neat phrases. I think it is also possible to summarise women’s requirements into three groups;
1. he must be attractive (to the woman)
2. he must be successfu;
3. he must be engaging!
Done!!

All the other requirements/deal breakers apply to men and women alike (no drug users, no abusers, no criminals etc.>.)
Bob 76

@Venus #75

Except that you don’t hear about men proffering laundry lists of what they’re looking for in women, and you had to “summarise” what women want to make a list as short as mens.
You’ve supported Evan’s contention.
bleh 77

Out of all the dating advice out there that gets thrown at women ad nauseum, it’s really refreshing to hear that all we need to land a great guy, a great relationship is really as simple as “Be fun and sexy.” This makes sense to me too, as a woman. While I like extraordinary men just as much as the next girl, it doesn’t really matter if he’s got masters degrees in astrophysics and 19th-century French poetry if he’s sour and critical most of the time I’m with him. I want someone who is going to treat me well, not continually nitpick my clothing or my body or some offhand comment I made at dinner. Men want their partners to be attractive and make them feel good about themselves, is what I think Evan is saying. Makes sense to me. I’ve seen guys leave gorgeous superwomen to be with someone less physically beautiful, less educated, way less impressive, but who knows how to flirt and make him feel masculine, confident, and sexy.
Jadafisk 78

#63 Lol… but I thought that attraction (I don’t go by amorphous, inexplicable chemistry) was the start of pretty much any romantic relationship? I understand and accept that the feeling is partly based on novelty and is bound to fade and wan… because of that, I make sure that we’re compatible and share interests, values, and basic intellectual level if not forte, but if I’m not physically attracted to the person in the first place, there seems to be no point. I’m not out here chasing 19 year old emo boys, but OTOH, I have friends already. Desire is what gets me off of the couch to find a mate.

What am I missing, here?
Ms. Trace 79

Evan,
Are you not contradicting yourself? Earlier posts by you inform us that men are about feelings, not looks and now your list here puts looks as number 1 on the list?
I think a lot of women know that looks/ nurturing ability trump accomplishments. They are not the ones reading your blog.
Gem 80

“I’ve seen guys leave gorgeous superwomen to be with someone less physically beautiful, less educated, way less impressive, but who knows how to flirt and make him feel masculine, confident, and sexy.”

Yep, happens all the time. I think some women are afraid to ‘let go’ of some imagined control that they think they have over the man and relationship, but if they did and just relaxed and ‘rolled’ with him a little, he (if he’s basically a good, decent man who loves her) would step up and give her the world. Some men develop bad habits because they are bucking/rebelling against her habits that don’t make him feel loved, honored, respected and masculine.

Not blaming women for everything, some men just stink, but as I said, if he’s a good, decent man who loves her and there are problems, maybe the woman can look and see what she can change. Men are easy. They want to be accepted just as they are, they want respect, they want to feel like Tarzan in bed and if they aren’t tired afterward, fix them a sandwhich.

It all starts with the first few dates, and Evan is right, be sexy and fun to be around. And do that all through the relationship. If you can’t accept him for the man he is and he doesn’t make you happy, leave.
Annie 81

@Steve #70

I’ve thought about this one for a while now and I think females tend to react to every situation they are in emotionally first, and thinking it through 2nd. Men tend to react in accordance with how they think about something, then how they feel.

You can see it in the language we use. A girl will talk about her date with a friend and say something like “I felt we had a good time, I feel we had a real connection, I have a feeling he’ll ask me out again”. A guy will say “Yeah, I think it went well, I think we got along, I think I’ll be asking her out a gain”. It’s so subtle that we don’t really notice it but it’s there.

I think that’s why you can reduce things so drastically, while we struggle to do that because we feel our way through a problem first and feelings are constantly changing.

I could be wrong though, but that’s my observation. I envy men that ability. Would make life so much easier. (though perhaps not as colourful? hehe).
Christine 82

I like men they are simple and want sex before love.
Denise 83

#79

Evan didn’t saying anything about looks, he said SEXY. Big difference.

#68

Thanks Selena…

Steve, the comments in my post were in response to your post about Jojo. You are right, they weren’t a good match. My comments were at a bigger picture level about the tendencies of women.

In general, women would be well served to change their mindset from ‘I have to make him love me, and this is the way I’m going to DO it (which is masculine energy)’ to ‘I’m evaluating if this is the right man for me.’

#65

This is exactly what I mean, this is masculine energy, DOING instead of BEING.  We are of the mindset that if we make ourselves indispensible to a man, by being NICE and KIND and HELPFUL, he will love us. (AND this is our excuse, “I just wanted to be helpful to him”, “He needed help and assistance”, “He’s a man, he doesn’t want to iron his clothes” “He’s so busy, that’s why I took his dog to the vet for him and planted his flower boxes”–hard to argue with that isn’t it?  Instead of being a sexy partner to him, she’s being his mother. He’s a grown man, he doesn’t need a woman to do those things FOR HIM.  When they become a committed couple, then they do things for each other to help.) When, in fact, it’s the exact opposite of what intrigues and keeps a man. HE has to win us, we’re the prize. However, for women, this is counterintuitive. To lean back and let him do for us. To win us. It’s difficult (because this is what we know), but NOT impossible to change.

Once a woman can understand this information, make this change in mindset and behavior, to learn about and BE in feminine energy with her man, she will be much happier. And when she’s happy, he’s happy!

I did all the things Evan advocated such as prepare is coffee in the morning; go do his laundry for him; I would give him back rubs when he came home; I even sacrificed my needs of not spending more time with him due to the fact that he worked 2 jobs.

Jojo, I know it must feel like we’re ganging up on you and blaming you. It’s difficult in text to be sympathetic without using a lot of words, and that muddies up the message. For my part, I’m pointing this out because this is COMMON for women to do this, I’ve seen 50 year old women do this, and it’s painful to watch. Everytime she does this, the man ends up running. You’re normal.

The problem with dating advice is it’s not getting down to the core principles of masculine and feminine energy and how that works. What drives women and men instinctively so we can be more forgiving of each other.  To understand our emotions, what causes them, and how we can mother/father ourselves out of those negative emotions.   Finally, the concept of boundaries. (These latter 2 are helpful for all aspects of life.)

Kudos to YOU for being on this site. Coming here clearly shows you’re curious.

No one is perfect, even when they understand the above intellectually. It’s the man that’s a keeper that can roll with the imperfection (AND the woman that can as well) and forgive that makes a strong partnership/relationship.

#70 and 81

Yes, women are more emotional and more complex. We have more needs from the man to feel feminine. We can’t help it, that’s they way we’re made.

I too admire men for their ability to keep things simple.  If women were like men in regard to emotion, would men want to be around women who act like men? There is a strong attraction for men to be with a caring, emotional woman. They just don’t like the negative emotion/drama–can’t say I blame them. It’s not a perfect world though.

So just like men are less emotional, they have their own challenges (do we need to list them?). Men are not the preferable species, just like women aren’t. We’re equal but different.   It’s the ying to the yang.
JoJo 84

I thought there was a differance between giving someone advice and controling them. You can tell someone nicely about how important it is to take medication without coming accross as a nag. Controling is complaining about everything he eats, not allowing him to eat the things he wants to and even can go as far as hiding things from hin. I certainly know that you cannot change someone. Change has to come from within. I dont understand why people said that I felt disrespected or not cared about because I didn’t like what he ate. I never equated the two. Finding it hard to be easy going because my ex kept doing things he knew I didn’t like were things that had to do with his behavior toward me; such as his sarcasm or keeping me waiting for hours without a phone call. I was talking about the things that directly impact me. His diet has nothing to do with me. I guess I try to be careful to not do the things that I know will annoy a person. I expect the same consideration in return. We’re not always going to like everything about a person and I know it’s not our job to change that. However, we can communicate in an effective manner the thing that do bother us and see if we can compromize if possible. I’m having a hard time feeling like things were my fault and just keep blaming myself. I guess I feel misunderstood.
JoJo 85

At 83, thank you. I didn’t read your comment before I posted my last one.
Denise 86

Jojo, there is NO excusing this man from his behavior, no doubt about it. Immature on many levels, not ready for a relationship. He is not the right man for you. You sound like a loving woman who as a lot to offer.

For my part, my point of my posts to point out the bigger picture. Remember, YOU are choosing, YOU are the prize. If he or other man won’t or can’t treat you like his queen and be a mature man of good character, then he is NOT the right man, period. Refrain from making excuses for him–the excuses don’t matter really, the bottom line is he’s still treating you poorly. Move on quickly before you get emotionally entangled.

I thought there was a differance between giving someone advice and controling them

Did he ask for advice? If he didn’t, then you were invading his boundary, trying to control him. Truly, I understand that wasn’t your intention consciously, but that’s is what was happening in reality. This applies to everyone in your life, not just men.

You can tell someone nicely about how important it is to take medication without coming accross as a nag.

If you’re talkinga bout another adult, why do you think that another adult does not know it’s important to take their meds? If they choose not to, that’s their stupid choice . Another important thing to look at, if you find he is making a lot of choices you don’t agree with in your head and heart, move on. Assume he’s not going to change, ever.

Every man we date is NOT going to be the man we will end up with. It’s not ‘any man will do’. It’s ‘does this man make me feel good, beautiful, loved, cherished, safe, respected, included’? If any of those are NO, then MOVE ON and do it soon as to not get emotionally involved.

My two cents
Selena 87

I’ll chip in another two cents to Denise’s on post #86.

I especially liked this: “Assume he’s not going to change, ever.”
Bob 88

@ Denise #86
Wow. This should be on the front page, required reading to enter this blog. So very well put!
Andrea 89

Seriously Jojo, whether it is for his own good or not, any adult will do what he (or she) wants to do.
And like Selena said, you need to ask yourself about anyone you want to be with, “if he never changes a single thing about himself, am I okay with this?” if the answer is no, then move on, b/c you are missing the most common and probably BEST advice given on this blog. You cannot control anyone but yourself. Why is that so hard to understand? I don’t care if you are giving someone the best “advice” in the world. And you did frame a lot of your advice in the context of proving that he did or didn’t care about you when he chose not to take it.
You cannot control anyone but yourself(yeah, I typed it a second time on purpose). So remember that in your next relationship. You probably wouldn’t like someone telling you what to do either, even if it was “good” advice. There might be some things you’ll “appreciate” but I’m sure at some point it would cross the line for you too.
I mean, I think most normal adults are self-aware enough to make good choices, and if they don’t want to make them then you cannot force them. Did your boyfriend start being snarky after months of nagging? B/c you might have been the cause for that behavior, and if that is the case, it’s someone you can control the next time.
Harriet Bond 90

I have been in this situation before and so have most of my female friends, and I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn’t pay to go over the reasons why he disappeared; at the end of the day, all you need to know is that your relationship didn’t stand the test of time. I have gone down the road of analysing someone else’s actions and trying to fathom it, and it just damaged my self-esteem and made me feel bad about myself. Some analysing is good, if it teaches you something, but otherwise drop it!
JoJo 91

Denise, thank you and I agree with everything you said. Giving advice without it being asked for is actually abusive. I never bring up anything unless the topic was brought to the table. He’s te one that would bring up his condition and I gave my opinion and some information that I thought would be helpful. I never brought it up again. I know that you cannot change someone.
Andrea, You can label me as someone who does it get it. I’m done
Denise 92

#91 JoJo

It’s not really abusive , it’s just indication that some work on boundaries is in order–YOUR boundary in regard to preferences and how you would like to be treated and OTHERS boundaries in regard to what is crossing over into their boundary. We will NEVER be perfect at this stuff. However, being aware and understanding the concept is really big.

Believe me, what you’re catching onto here most people NEVER get. Not because they are too stupid to get it, it’s just that they never seek out better or different ways of doing things, or how to be a better (more mature) person–OR they are not open to it. Throughout life too, we’re open to certain things at certain times. What one hears today makes not sense to them, but say it to them 6 months from now, the lightbulb goes off!

Kudos to you for having the courage to write about your experience here, and at least consider what’s being said. Ultimately, it’s up to you decide what works for you or not.

You’re also lucky that you have a recent, real life situation to look at and examine, on so many levels.
JoJo 93

Denise, I said abusive because that the term that a co-dependency councelor told me. He said that giving advice when it’s not asked for can be abusive. I really liked what you said on comment #8. There has to be an ability on both parts to make it work.
Steve 94

Holy crap! 93 comments!
Steve 95

Selene @73
This is the second blog post Evan has done on this topic where you have repeatedly commented (and sometimes snidely) that what Evan wrote should not be questioned, disected, or debated. I read this blog because I enjoy the perspectives of the other readers in the comment section – including yours generally. If all the comments were simply “Spot ON EMK!” I would have quit reading here long ago. But on this particular topic, when women suggest they also want sexy and easy going, when they point out MEN very often have much more criteria than just those two, it seems to hit a nerve with you. Why is that?

You have a good point, there wouldn’t be a conversation if everyone agreed.

I do tend to get short when a simple message is communicated and is not received…….or accepted. It seems that goes on a lot. Evan gives a simple piece of advice, but it isn’t what people want to hear so they make things more complicated when the issue is simple.

As to why a bunch of strangers doing this should bother me, it shouldn’t. As to why I *am* bothered is that I see all sorts of women in my life, sabotaging themselves, sometimes causing drama in my life, when the situation was simple and upfront…..and never needed to be more complicated.
JoJo 96

LOL Steve, I know; it’s all my fault!
starthrower68 97

I’ll say it again….on the one hand act like a man, but on the other hand, don’t act like a man….
Selena 98

@Steve #95

What I see on the blog is people using Evan’s observations as a jumping off point to discuss different aspects of the topic and those tangential related. I find that interesting.
Relationship Writer 99

Law of attraction is really about what you want and what you will attract. The universal delivers what you are thinking and want. If you don’t have the vibrations of a good partner, the likelihood is u r not going to attract someone who will love and cherish you. Be what you want to attract!
Karl R 100

starthrower68 said: (#97)
“I’ll say it again….on the one hand act like a man, but on the other hand, don’t act like a man….”

starthrower68, you’re smart enough to be able to understand what Evan is saying. Dating is too complex to simplify into a four or five word rule (act like a man/don’t act like a man). Stop trying to oversimplify it.

If you want a simple guideline, start with this:
Keep in mind what men want.

In the early stages of a relationship, men are deciding whether they want to spend another date with you. They’ll wait until later to decide whether they want to spend the rest of their life with you. And as Evan said, they’re basing that decision on whether they find you sexy, and whether both of you are having fun.

I spent this past weekend at a dance competition. During the social dancing (before and after competitions) I danced with a few hundred different women. Some of the good dance partners I danced with once, but I wouldn’t ask to dance a second time. With some, it was obvious that they weren’t enjoying themselves. With others, they were gracious, but it seemed like I wasn’t as good as the partners they prefered to dance with.

Surprisingly, some women in those two groups asked me to dance again. They had enjoyed themselves, but they were so bad about showing it that I didn’t realize they were having fun. And they were equally bad about showing it the second time around, so the second dance wasn’t fun for me either.

Be fun. Have fun.

As the relationship progresses, the focus shifts to the long-term. If I’m going to spend the rest of my life with my girlfriend, will that make me happier than spending the rest of my life single? The huge criteria that becomes is how much stress, conflict, irritation and other unhappiness is part of the relationship. Do you tolerate the man’s flaws, or are you trying to make him change? Do those changes matter to him? How easy is it for him to tolerate your flaws?

Being in the relationship needs to make him feel better than being single (or in a different relationship).

I compliment my girlfriend regularly. I let her know that she’s attractive, that I enjoy her company … any excuse to give her a compliment will do. I make this a habit because it’s a simple way to make her feel good about being in the relationship. I’m not more impressive than her exes. But being with me feels a whole lot better (less stress, less conflict, etc.)

My girlfriend has gone with what makes her feel the best. I doubt that she considers this decision to be “acting like a man.”
Helen 101

My main beef with this entry is that I don’t think it does much good to portray ALL women as wanting certain things, and ALL men as wanting certain things. All women are not the same, and all men are not the same.

I cannot even begin to identify with the list that Evan’s friend Jen made of dealbreakers on a first date. To me, many of these statements are unbelievably shallow, if not downright stupid. How does a man’s propensity to match his belt and shoes correlate in any way with whether he would be a kind and loving partner? And what is wrong with asking her if she wants a drink after he orders one? These women are deliberately sabotaging themselves; thankfully, I would imagine most women do not include these dealbreakers among their own.

My concern is that if people get too stuck in an ideology that “all men are like this,” or “all women are like that,” they will tend to project negativity into their NEXT relationship if their previous one turned out badly (which it usually does; otherwise they wouldn’t be available again). In reality, there is so much difference amongst individuals of either sex that it makes no sense to judge a date based on previous dates, or to make blanket statements about either sex.
Dean Kaplan 102

For most men that I know that I know that are in long-term relationships, they knew from the moment that they met a young lady whether she was “wifey material” or not. From a woman’s perspective, the hard part is finding out a way to know whether or not he sees that potential in you right from the get-go. If that was easy, women could save A LOT of otherwise wasted time on a guy.
Dean Kaplan 103

@ Helen – I was thinking the same thing as I read the post, I just forgot to comment on that. I think Evan does indeed categorize all men and women in the same bucket a bit. All men and all women don’t necessarily look for the same things. I agree.
Karl R 104

Helen said: (#101)
“I don’t think it does much good to portray ALL women as wanting certain things, and ALL men as wanting certain things. All women are not the same, and all men are not the same.”

Take a close look at Evan’s list:
1. Not attractive or sexy
2. Not fun
3. Not easygoing

Can you find a significant minority of men who would be willing to overlook any of those?

Of course men aren’t all the same. We find different things attractive/sexy. We find different things fun. We don’t necessarily find the same people easy to get along with. We have different tolerance levels for how much “difficulty” we’ll endure from a significant other.

If someone can give me useful information about what 95% to 99% of all women want, that information will do me a lot of good.

Since you’re convinced that this information can’t possibly apply to all people, I have three questions for you:

Would you stay in a romantic relationship if you thought the man was unattractive and didn’t want to have sex with him?
Would you stay in a romantic relationship with a man who wasn’t fun to be with?
Would you stay in a romantic relationship with someone who was difficult to get along with?

Helen said: (#101)
“My concern is that if people get too stuck in an ideology that ‘all men are like this,’ or ‘all women are like that,’ they will tend to project negativity into their NEXT relationship if their previous one turned out badly”

That’s a stretch.

You’re opposed to Evan conveying an accurate generalization about men, because you’re afraid that some people will misapply other inaccurate generalizations about men and women.

If that happens, the flaw isn’t in the accurate information, nor is it in the person who conveyed it. I’m not interested in having people withhold accurate information from me just because there will be a few people stupid enough to misuse it.
Cat 105

Well said, Karl!

Helen, #101, Evan actually lists this in his Rules of the Blog, referring to what’s not allowed in comments: “Comments about how my advice is wrong just because it doesn’t apply to you. There are exceptions to everything. You may be that exception. But that doesn’t invalidate that my advice probably applies to many other women.”
starthrower68 106

@ Karl #100,

Point well taken. But c’mon, you know my posts well enough to know I was being flip. Where we may part company however, is, a woman should put her best foot forward. Be sexy and easygoing but just be aware it still guarantees nothing.
Andrea 107

@starthrower68,
How could anyone ever assume that there are any guarantees in the world of dating and relationships? I wish. I wonder what my willingness to pay would be is someone could make this easy, painless, and let me get what I want.
All of this advice is just designed to help you avoid self-sabotage during the process. B/c you can be demanding and pushy and then when you don’t get a call back, you assume that it’s because you weren’t “hot” enough.
I mean, we’d all like to be in control during this process and protect ourselves from being disappointed, or guarantee that the people that we want to hear from again actually call for seconds, thirds and beyond. I’d love to pick and choose. I’d love to have a crystal ball and know halfway through if I can get my hopes up.
I mean, I don’t like the fact that I have to be carefree and fun and feel like I’m “investing” so much in someone who might be praying for the night to end. Actually, scratch that. I’m not supposed to be planning a future but rather being the best I can be in the moment.
But if I’m uptight and insecure, I’ll increase the odds that the outcome that I don’t want (assuming that it’s someone that I want to see again) will occur. Unfortunately, it’s bad strategy to try to withhold the best parts of yourself until you know for sure, b/c you don’t know for sure for a LONG time, and you’ll never get a chance to get any further if you act distant and reserved.
So much of the advice here focuses on changing or managing the things that you can, which are yourself. I’m still learning to be comfortable with it and I’ve got a long way to go, but at least I know logically and rationally what I should be doing.
If you aren’t “hot” enough for your date’s tastes, then no amount of being easy going and fun will matter. But if you are, the point is to remember that your other attributes can make or break you.
Getting all three things in your corner means that you are maximizing your chances, but yeah, that could still just be be going from a 5% chance of a callback to a 10% chance, depending on the girl.
But it’s still an improvement.
starthrower68 108

Andrea, I don’t think I said anything that is in disagreement with what you said.
Karl R 109

starthrower68 said: (#106)
“Be sexy and easygoing but just be aware it still guarantees nothing.”

That’s correct.

I could go out with Evan’s friend Jen (or any of the co-authors of the list of 300 things men do wrong), I could avoid all 300 of the missteps they listed, and there would still be no guarantee of a second date.

That’s a lot more hoops for men to jump through for the same non-guarantee.

Andrea said: (#107)
“I don’t like the fact that I have to be carefree and fun and feel like I’m ‘investing’ so much in someone who might be praying for the night to end.”

That’s your idea of an investment? You don’t have to bare your soul, reveal your secrets, dazzle him with your accomplishments, solve his problems, or even solve your problems. You just need to kick back, have fun and be enjoyable company.

I’ve been able to relax, have fun and be enjoyable company (or fake it convincingly) when I was the one waiting for the date to be over. It’s much less effort to do so when I like the woman.

And as you pointed out, it improves your odds.
Andrea 110

@Karl R (#109)
I used it in quotes because I was using the word “invest” ironically.
It’s wasn’t to suggest that it was actually a HUGE deal to be fun and easygoing, or that it was too much to ask that I do it. My point is that it can be very, very hard, and my guess is that you had to do a lot of dating and growing to get to a point where you feel confident about yourself in most settings (or perhaps find the settings in which you excel and can be confident or your “advantage.”)
Some of us are still working on getting there, and it can be rather disorienting to be in control, be successful, and be a winner in so many other parts of your life but then feel as though you are reduced to an insecure, adolescent mess as you look for signs that someone likes you.
I’ve found this blog helpful, but it also is unsettling to read that the things that make me popular and successful in other parts of my life matter very little to men(it wasn’t a big shocker but you always hope that your one advantage in life might help you out in winning over someone).
And so I find myself mentally fumbling about what parts of myself to show(not to withhold so much as to not scare people off with some mistaken impression of who I am), while I put my ego in check (b/c of course, I am being open-minded about who I meet), so that I don’t feel irked or humiliated if I’m rejected by someone who is far from perfect either (and I’m not going to suggest that I’m so awesome that I expect to be everyone’s cup of tea, although I’ll openly cop to being very, very smart with a really good education, which is kind of standard for the women on this blog and the ones who hire Evan).
It’s funny, b/c in casual conversation with someone (while networking, at parties) I have no interest in, I find it easy to be charming, funny, and interesting(or so I’m told by people who find it hard to talk to strangers). But make the setting one that could be potentially romantic, and I totally freeze up. I don’t know how to turn on the right part of me at that crucial moment.
I don’t consider it to be logical or rational to shoot oneself in the foot while dating to avoid disappointment or pain. I’m just pointing out that it can be hard to do when you are meeting someone for the first time. Being online means that you can get a very favorable impression of someone before you ever meet (as opposed to meeting someone spontaneously in a social setting or in a casual setting with lots of contact like school); so it changes the dynamic for me at least in a way that is hard to manage. I mean, you don’t know the person, but you’ve heard enough about he’s marketed himself to feel as if you do or don’t want to know more.
Were you really always so confident about women that you wanted to possibly date? Or did that take practice?
Kicking back sounds so easy but it’s not. Even if you know that it’s the best thing.
Helen 111

Karl 104: your post actually proves my point. Yes, the vast majority of people would prefer those broad categories of 3 things, but as you say yourself, what each individual considers attractive and fun differs enormously. I never said Evan’s advice was wrong; indeed, I enjoyed reading this entry. Rather, I wonder whether it really conveys helpful information to women who may twist themselves inside-out to try to conform to what might be “attractive” or “fun,” only to realize that the guy they’re with doesn’t find THOSE things attractive or fun at all. What underlies my comments is a strong belief in taking every individual for who he is, with his unique interests and priorities. If there’s not a match, so be it – nothing to take too personally.

As Evan wrote in a previous entry, “Chemistry is a funny thing.” He was consoling a woman after hypothesizing that her close male friend didn’t want to be her boyfriend because he wasn’t physically attracted to her. Evan went on to say that it’s impossible to predict whether two people will be attracted to each other regardless of objective beauty – sometimes it happens; other times it doesn’t.

Cat 105, you would realize after rereading my comment that it does not break rules of commenting on this blog. Not only did I NOT disagree with the advice, there is no proof that what I wrote applies to me only. Regardless, as I am sure you have seen, many people have posted personal anecdotes and disagreements here, and I’m thankful that Evan does allow some leeway to everyone in this space.
Cat 112

Helen, #111, You missed my point entirely! In your comment #101, you said, My main beef with this entry is that I don’t think it does much good to portray ALL women as wanting certain things, and ALL men as wanting certain things. All women are not the same, and all men are not the same.

I was pointing out that Evan clearly states in his Rules of the Blog that he knows there are exceptions. However, I think you’d be hard pressed to find any men who disagree with Evan’s statement that men ask two questions about whether someone is “date-worthy”: Do I want to sleep with you? Do I feel good about myself when I’m spending time with you?

It also sounds rather ridiculous to say that based on Evan’s advice, women need “to twist themselves inside-out to try to conform to what might be “attractive” or “fun,” only to realize that the guy they’re with doesn’t find THOSE things attractive or fun at all.” Do they have any friends? At all? Then they probably know how to be fun and in the moment. If they need help being attractive, there’s plenty of consultants for that, for everything from hair to makeup to style. And if they’re having that much trouble with first dates, they really need a dating coach. If you’re having trouble losing weight, you probably consult a personal trainer and a dietician, etc. If you have trouble getting a boyfriend, you call Evan. He won’t tell you what you want to hear, he’ll tell you what you need to know.

And that’s exactly what he does in this blog, whether you personally find it useful or not. I think you’re much more interested in people telling you what you want to hear, not the truth about men.
Helen 113

Whoa Cat, no need to flare up so passionately or to make such judgments. I don’t care personally how Evan’s advice affects me. I’ve been happily married for over 10 years, and had the pleasure of being shown this website by a friend several years ago who’s now also married. He gets a broad readership, you see.
Karl R 114

Andrea asked: (#110)
“Were you really always so confident about women that you wanted to possibly date? Or did that take practice? Kicking back sounds so easy but it’s not.”

It takes practice. It also takes a shift in attitude. You’re nervous because the outcome of the date matters to you. You’re also thinking that you can do something to change the outcome.

When you walk into the date, what are the possible outcomes?
1. You don’t want to date him, so nothing happens.
2. You want to date him, but he doesn’t want to date you, so nothing happens.
3. You both want to date each other.

In two of the three possibilities, you’re no worse off than you were before. In the third, you’re doing much better. And even if nothing happens this time, there will always be another first date.

Dating is a numbers game, but it’s like a gambling game where it doesn’t actually cost you to lose … but you still can win big.

Since you’re a woman, I’ll add the obvious caveat. If your safety is being compromised, then you can be nervous. At that point, you can lose.

And it’s not like you can do a lot to alter the outcome. Think about the last guy you turned down after the first date. How long did it take you to decide that he wasn’t getting a second date? I’ve heard that it takes women around three minutes to make that decision. It’s based on criteria that men usually don’t know, and that they frequently can’t control.

The men are doing the exact same thing, except they’re doing it in less than one minute. The odds of you changing his mind from “No” to “Yes” are extremely small. And you have to sabotage yourself to change from “Yes” to “No”.

It’s okay to be nervous (if you’re a woman … I’m not sure that the same is true for men). In 2007 I went on a first date with a lady who was obviously nervous. I thought she was cute and I had fun being with her. I assumed she’d be even more fun when the first date jitters faded. We dated exclusively for 4 or 5 months.

Being nervous is okay. Being uptight is not. If he’s running late, that’s okay. If he had to change the plans at the last minute, that’s okay. If there’s a half hour wait at the restaurant, that’s okay. If it starts to rain at the outdoor theater, that’s okay. If dinner gives him gas, that’s okay.

As long as he’s not violating your boundaries, it’s okay. After the date, you can decide that it wasn’t okay … but that puts the choice in your hands.

Helen said: (#111)
“I wonder whether it really conveys helpful information to women who may twist themselves inside-out to try to conform to what might be ‘attractive’ or ‘fun,’ only to realize that the guy they’re with doesn’t find THOSE things attractive or fun at all.”

Probably not. But it will do a world of good for the woman who treated our coffee date like she was interviewing me for a job. It will help the woman who is trying to impress me that she’s extremely successful at running her business. It will help the woman who is freaking out because she didn’t have time to get a pedicure.

And the women don’t have to tie themselves in knots to figure out what men find fun. Read his profile. There are probably some clues. Even if there aren’t, he’s inviting you on the first date. As the inviter, I will arrange for something that I think I’ll enjoy.
Goldie 115

I’ve been wondering, why is “safe” not on the list, in addition to “sexy” and “fun”? And that goes for men and women both. All the time, you hear men saying they don’t want “crazy” or “head cases”, as well as women saying they don’t want an addict or a stalker – doesn’t this mean that both sexes want someone who, in addition to being attractive and fun, isn’t likely to give them trouble, no matter how the relationship plays out? I mean, as a woman, I’m pretty sure all the sex appeal and sense of humor in the world won’t help a guy keep a relationship with me if he tends to get violent each time he forgets his meds… ya know? Would like to hear from men on whether they are looking for some of that same stability in women as well.
BeenThereDoneThat 116

I have heard men say they don’t “crazy” or “head cases” or “drama”. I think that all ties up with fun. I don’t want them either. They are NOT fun to be around.
Cat 117

Helen, #113, Whoa Cat, no need to flare up so passionately or to make such judgments.

I’ve just been quoting you! That’s great that you’ve been happily married for ten years! But it probably means you don’t have much experience with dating, unless it’s an open marriage.

Karl, some great comments, as usual.
Denise 118

#114 Karl

This is so right on Karl, great answer!

It takes practice. It also takes a shift in attitude. You’re nervous because the outcome of the date matters to you. You’re also thinking that you can do something to change the outcome.

Whenever we’re emotionally invested in something, it has an affect on us.

This is another great line:

Being nervous is okay. Being uptight is not.

#110 Andrea

What a great post, you explained yourself very well. I can definitely say that most women experience the same things you do, you are quite normal.

Dovetailing into what Karl wrote above, one of the things that helped me become LESS nervous/uptight and emotionally invested is to treat all men the same for the first couple of dates. I treat the married men I talk to while I’m getting my oil changed or at the grocery store the same as I treat the man I’m out on a first date with. I changed my attitude to be one of being interested in all people, their story and life experiences–whether they are a romantic interest or not, I treat them all the same. Getting to know them as people and/or as a potential ‘friend’ (depending on the circumstance).

Once I got into that grove comfortably, today, I can easily notch up the flirting when I do like the guy and I’m seeing he’s having a fun time with me. After the date, I show my appreciation, give them a big smile, and I just lean back and DO NOTHING. It works like a CHARM! 99% of the time, I’m getting an offer for another date. Then it’s up to me to decide whether I felt he was a good match for me or not.

This is just something that worked for me and is an example. You’ll find what works for you. Hopefully you get the gist though.

The important thing is to use your ‘observing ego’, third eye, whatever you want to call it to look ‘above’ yourself, like you’re in a movie and you’re watching you act, and coach yourself real time. Make a commitment to do something different, work to shift your attitude by talking to yourself in that way, in a POSITIVE way. I can attest it doesn’t take long before the NEW you is just part of you, and you don’t have to concentrate so much on it.
BeenThereDoneThat 119

Helen
I always appreciate your comments and perspective. Once day you said something so profound that I wrote it down: You said

When you do find that good and easy person, you don’t have a boring life: you have a peaceful and enjoyable one. Life throws enough stress at you; you don’t need a stressful relationship on top of that. You can concentrate on solving other problems, and whenever you do think of your mate, it’s not with angst, but gratitude.

Please keep posting. I can not change my font size. GRRRR.
Karl R 120

Goldie asked: (#115)
“I’ve been wondering, why is ‘safe’ not on the list”

It’s not something I ever consider. The odds of a date/girlfriend attacking me and doing serious harm are really slim. The odds of getting in an accident on the way to the first date are higher.

As BeenThereDoneThat indicated (#116), crazy girlfriends aren’t easy to get along with. They aren’t fun to be around. The same is true if a woman has a quick temper and yells a lot.
JoJo 121

Carl and Denise, well said. At Andrea, one of the things that help me is to go on the dates with no expectations. Go in it with a fun attitude and not think so much about the outcome. I also learned to not talk about ex’s or bad past experiences. Don’t go into it like you’re interviewing the guy either. Talk about your experiences in a postive way. I remember a time when I went on dates and talked about past relationships and I realized that it wasn’t the best impression of myself. I started to just go and have fun even if I wasn’t that interested. In the end, always remember that you do the choosing. Ever since my attitude has shifted, I’ve gotten better results.
starthrower68 122

While I understand what Karl, JoJo, Denise, et al are saying, I understand where Andrea is coming from about the “twisting ourselves in knots statement”. No woman that I know wants to not be fun and sexy on a date, and we’re smart enough to recognize that’s the best approach. But here are the sort of things I think about:

“Do I just smile, laugh, and nod in response? If so, do I look like a mindless dolt?”

“If I ask him questions about himself to show interested, is that going to come across as an inquisition?” (Note: I realize you don’t ask his bank balance, what he makes, etc. Good manners will tell you that).

“How do I look cool and calm without looking non-chalant?”

I’m sure it sounds like neuroses, but some less confident daters feel like they need to walk on eggshells. And if you can tell a date is having a lousy time because he’s not attracted to you, and he is looking like a caged animal, I see no reason not to just pleasantly thank him for his interest and end the date as soon as possible.
Denise 123

#122 atarthrower

Got it and understand where you’re coming from. Been there, done that, truly, this is normal to feel this way. There are ways to do things differently though and to grow.

It’s learning about and understanding the power you have a woman, to build confidence and ‘sexiness’. It’s about learning about femininity, what it means, and how it differs from masculinity. It’s about getting OUT of your HEAD and into your HEART and feelings (part of femininity). It’s about being PRESENT, enjoying the interaction you’re having with another human being (if you’re in your head, this is impossible). Another human being who is probably as NERVOUS as you are by the way, just think about him. Do you think he’s immune to everything you’re feeling? He’s got a lot of pressure on him and he’s trying to make a good impression, and probably feeling like he’s not good enough or he’s going to say something stupid or make you want to puke! Practice empathy.

(If you’ve never tried it, a good mind/body (not just body) yoga claas or medition is great training for being present, connecting with our core being and being empathetic. It’s so good in so many ways!)

As Karl said: Being nervous is okay. Being uptight is not.

What you’re describing is being uptight. This is a suggestion for you on how to get more into your feelings, be more authentic. Tell your date you’re FEELING nervous! He’ll probably be relieved and admit he is too, or he’ll be reassuring (and if he doesn’t do any of these, then he’s not the man for you, just finish out the date in the most polite way you can). After that you can relax and be yourself (authentic), really listen to what he’s saying. (Oh, learn about and practice real listening skills, those will serve you in every aspect of your life.)

Bottom line is one post or one hour isn’t going to solve all the challenges of dating and relating to men. It’s a process of learning and APPLYING what’s been learned. Trying something different.

MOST importantly is no one is perfect, ever.

My two cents!
Helen 124

Aw, thanks so much, BeenThereDoneThat 119!

I’m flattered to be quotable. Your reminding me of that quote does bring up a point relevant to this article: speaking of requirements, I remember replying to Karl R in another thread (“Why don’t men like smart, …”) that the only criterion for me in a guy was kindness. How’s that for simplicity. One criterion. I can say this after 11 years of marriage. Everyone who is holding on to this ideal of sexiness and fun and matching clothes and all that jazz – you’d better not be planning to have children, or you’d better plan on having your ideals be REALLY flexible.
Goldie 125

Helen #124,

“Kindness only” sounds very cool on paper, but, for me personally, I know it would not work in real life. Don’t get me wrong, it is a necessary requirement, but IMO there should be more. First guy that I dated after my divorce was the kindest person you’d ever meet. He was also clingy, and bored me to tears. I had to end it for the sake of my sanity. Whatever it was he had to offer, I already have a dog for that.

So far, the “list” that resonates with me the most, is the one from Mira Kirshenbaum’s book “Is He Mr. Right?” She calls it “the five dimensions of chemistry” – cheesy, I know. Her five dimensions are: 1)mutual trust; 2)feeling safe and secure around the person; 3)ability to have fun together; 4)physical attraction; and 5)mutual respect. I would add that, for me, if #1, #2, #3 and #5 are all present, #4 will naturally follow, no matter what the guy looks like.
Evan Marc Katz 126

Great list, Goldie. Don’t think anyone could disagree with it. And, because it bears mentioning, when I stress kindness, it doesn’t mean “kindness only”. Just like when I stress compatibility, it doesn’t mean to COMPLETELY give up on chemistry. My real point is that people get dazzled by “interesting” or “cultured” or “wealthy” and somehow forget to find a partner that treats them well. My job is to remind them how important it is to be treated well.
Denise 127

#125 Goldie

Her five dimensions are: 1)mutual trust; 2)feeling safe and secure around the person; 3)ability to have fun together; 4)physical attraction; and 5)mutual respect. I would add that, for me, if #1, #2, #3 and #5 are all present, #4 will naturally follow, no matter what the guy looks like.

Goldie, thanks for sharing this!
Joe 128

@ Goldie (#115):

If a woman doesn’t feel safe with a guy, she’s not likely to be having much fun. If a guy is with a woman who’s crazy, he’s not likely to be having much fun.
Helen 129

Evan #126, I definitely agree with that. In my area of work, the one thing that women tend to value most in men is intelligence – and it has led to at least 3 of my friends being divorced recently. They cared about a man’s intelligence first and foremost, and didn’t pay any attention (or deliberately ignored) early on if he was cruel, disrespectful, never at home, or completely absent from the relationship. In other words, these men did not treat their women well. These women were lucky to get out.

When we’re young, we have a certain idealism that attracts us to looking for “interesting,” “cultured,” or “wealthy.” We mostly have to rely on mature friends, family, and mentors to clue us in that kindness and being treated well are far more important than these other things. So thanks for being that “elder statesman”, Evan!
Denise 130

#115 and #128

May I add another version of ‘safety’? I think women want to be ‘safe’ with knowing they can be themselves. When the man tries to create an atmosphere where she can truly be herself and be authentic.

One way a man could do that is to come up with a really good probing question about the way she thinks or feels about something, then be interested in the answer and converse back and forth on it. So get away from the ‘what do you do for work’ boring conversation and get to some juicy questions that get to something important about her.

I am NOT saying to ask ANYTHING about sex, or anything that is TOO intimately personal, but more like ‘if you had to leave the house in a fire, what are the three things you would take with you’ kindof question (that is JUST an example).

I’ve been thinking about #115 in regard to safety and wanted to share this thought.
Annie 131

@130.

Interesting Denise. I’m wary of the whole safe thing myself. Because safe, actually means boring to me. I don’t want a guy that makes me feel so safe, that there’s never any tension at all.

But safety in terms of being able to be myself? Then definately.
Karl R 132

Annie said: (#131)
“I’m wary of the whole safe thing myself. Because safe, actually means boring to me. I don’t want a guy that makes me feel so safe, that there’s never any tension at all.”

That attitude will pretty much guarantee you one unhappy relationship after another … regardless of what definition of “safe” you use.

He’s not safe because he harms you or threatens to harm you
Abusive relationships are probably the most miserable relationships to be in. “Tension” doesn’t begin to describe it. Gut-wrenching fear and PTSD come closer.

He’s not safe because he takes risks with your life
He drives drunk when you’re a passenger. He stores fireworks under the bed. He keeps a loaded gun under his pillow. He practices autoasphyxia on you without safety words. It’s one thing if a person chooses to do things that might hurt themselves (skydiving, skiing black diamond trails). It’s another thing if they subject you to those risks without your permission.

He’s not safe because you can’t trust him
You don’t know whether he’ll empty your bank accout, steal your car or sleep with your best friend. Lot’s of tension, but none of it is likely to make you happy.

There’s no safe topic of conversation with him
You never know what’s going to set him off. Maybe he ends up screaming at you. Maybe he just launches into a diatribe against his least favorite political party. But every topic of conversation is a potential land mine. Lots of tension. Even if the make-up sex is incredible, I can’t see the appeal. I get plenty of incredible sex without having to fight with my girlfriend first.

The relationship isn’t safe because you don’t know where you stand
At the beginning of a relationship, that’s normal. If you’re two years into a relationship and have no clue whether he’s going marry you or vanish the next day, that’s not likely to make you happy … unless you’re inclined to vanish the next day too.

He won’t put himself at risk to ensure your safety
I can’t see why a coward would appeal to you, but being around this guy probably won’t make you unhappy either.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t possibly see how a lack of safety makes a relationship happier, more fun, more enjoyable, etc. Lots of unsafe situations are not boring (muggings, car accidents) but that doesn’t make me eager to repeat those experiences.

Similarly, I don’t see how tension improves a relationship. I can find plenty of fun and excitement in a relationship without having tension.
Denise 133

#131 & #132

Maybe it’s a woman thing Karl, but I think I understood what Annie was saying about ‘tension’ in this context. If I’m reading her correctly, she wants a man that has mystery about him, that’s not ‘too nice’, that has an opinion and stands up for himself and with her, not a pushover, that talks to her in a high pitched voice. So yeah, she feels safe, but he feels weak and unmasculine and that’s boring. The ‘tension’ she’s talking about is subtle, NOT violent or mean in any way, not being a game player, not disregarding her feelings–all of these things and those above you describe are ‘extreme’ in what we’re talking about.

I’m sure Annie can come in and eloborate if I’m off base.
Karl R 134

Denise said: (#133)
“I think I understood what Annie was saying about ‘tension’ in this context. If I’m reading her correctly, she wants a man that has mystery about him, that’s not ‘too nice’, [...] The ‘tension’ she’s talking about is subtle,”

If that’s what she’s talking about, I find it hilarious. It means she’s an easy mark for a Pick-Up Artist. (Hopefully Lance will chime in, since he has some expertise in that area.) What she’s looking for is a fantasy, and it can be easily created as an illusion for her to chase after.

Of course, the Pick-Up Artists’ game works best in the short-term, but they’re looking to score, not have a long-term relationship. Even so, a few of their tricks are handy for getting a foot in the door (which I why I understand a little about it).

Mystery
Seriously, if I have interesting secrets that I don’t want you to discover, I’m going to convince you that I’m an open book, and anything you don’t know about me is so boring that you wouldn’t want to hear about it. You won’t learn my secrets if you aren’t looking for them.

Creating mystery is just a bunch of verbal smoke and mirrors. For example, let’s say we’re talking about my trench coat:
Me: “One nice thing about a trench coat. You can hide a shotgun under it if you need to.”
Her: “Why would you want to hide a shotgun under your trench coat?”
Me: “Nobody in their right mind wants to hide a shotgun under their trench coat. It’s terribly uncomfortable. You only do it if you need to.”

At which point, I stop answering questions and change the subject. Suddenly, you have a mystery. Under what circumstances did I ever need to carry a shotgun (under my trench coat or elsewhere). You can pursue that mystery ’til the end of time without finding the answer, since the only places I’ve carried my shotgun were to my apartment and the gun range. All I have to do to maintain the mystery is not answer your questions.

Tension
Same with tension. If I give you mixed signals about where you stand in our relationship, you feel a natural tension. Am I interested? Am I not? Pick-Up Artists deliberately keep women off balance that way in order to keep them interested. It doesn’t translate well into a long-term relationship, but the people who practice this are just looking for a quick score.

At it’s most successful, it’s outright manipulation. And it works best on women who are convinced that the men aren’t smart/subtle enough to manipulate them in that way.

However, it doesn’t work at all with women who are looking for a man with real substance: patience, kindness, trustworthiness, integrity.
Michael17 135

You know, I love this blog because I feel a little like a fly on the wall in the women’s locker room. I’m learning a lot.

I’ve noticed that a few women on here are wondering why it is on them to change for men. Well, it might help to let you know that there is a whole community of guys who are trying to learn what it takes to be successful with women. A small percentage of these guys do want to be Pick Up Artists (PUAs), but most guys just want to know what a woman is looking for so she will return his phone calls and want to see him again, and so on. I’m definitely NOT trying to start a debate over which gender has it harder, I am trying to point out that IF WE WANT PEOPLE TO BUY WHAT WE’RE SELLING, WE HAVE TO SELL WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO BUY.

That doesn’t mean we do business with anyone, but it does mean that we learn what our target audience respond to. And we have to get past judging them for having tastes and ways that ‘don’t make sense’ and that ‘aren’t fair’. This has been a struggle for me, frankly. I’ve felt angry when a woman wouldn’t ‘keep her word’ and return my phone calls or see me again, after she told me she would.

There’s a few people who say that ‘we’re all individuals’. Well sure, but there’s no denying that some women seem to always have guys into them, and some guys seem to be getting most of the women. There ARE some underlying principles here.
Michael17 136

Karl #134, I get that you find what Annie and Denise are saying to not make sense to you, to put it euphemistically. What if instead you were to try to figure out what they are really getting at? I think there’s some real gold in there.
Denise 137

#134

Karl, YOU may feel that way as a man, but the feminine instincts and what we find attractive are what they are. Much of all this is contained in CHEMISTRY, which is unexplainable–it’s tough to explain ‘tension’. ”Mystery’ in the context I’m using it is NOT secrets, that’s deceit. You’re misinterpreting ‘mystery’ and taking it too literally, which I think is pretty hilarious. Same thing with ‘tension’, you’re taking it to an extreme. As I indicated, this is SUBTLE stuff, it’s about feelings and intuition and attraction.

A man can show all this patience, kindness, trustworthiness, integrity, he can make her safe as can be, but not create the type of attraction/tension that women find appealing. That is absolutely true with all the ‘nice guys’ out there who can’t seem to find and keep a woman.
Joe 138

I’m gonna give the simple answer of casual encounters without putting energy into a relationship with hassles. But if she’s a great cook that feeds a man, that might make him stay.
Josh 139

I have to agree with EMK, all I need is to have some attraction to a woman, and that is enough to get me through a couple of dates. During that time, Im trying to evaluate if the woman has the qualities for a LTR:

1) Fun to be with
2) Emotionally Stable
3) Respsonsible/Dependable

Thats it. Everyone has their quirks. Guys for some reason tend to ignore the minor things while woman nitpick the details to death.
NonExist 140

Evan and Josh #139 pretty much covered my lists.
Mainly if she is fun to spend time with that will keep me interested.
And even though there are a lot fo things I have little interest in I’d actually research them in order to converse with her about them if she’s cool enough to not deride me for not knowing.

Those are in no way guarantees, but pretty good indicators.
Sometimes interest on either side just fades even with good matches and that is life.
Azoth 141

If a woman doesn’t trust you, or go for after say 6 months, dump her.
sophie 142

ITS A LIFE EXPERIENCE
Its really a few men that at their first sight they do experience true love but not just having sex.
Yes i have talked to many young boys and a few grown ups about loving a woman for sex and the answers i got from most of them was the same,these boys were like its better having sex before you decide to love this innocent lady for the rest of your life ,which i think its not fair to the ladies, you know when ladies decide to love ,they love for really but men end up breaking their hearts i wonder .
Am so confused about this can’t a man love a woman for a month without having sex or more than one month.
I have fallen in love with many men but i really get surprised that on the first meeting ,they are always in need of sex ,i want to stop loving because i cant just let my body be explored just like that.
I think love is all about caring ,respecting each other,giving the other freedom and then sex comes after but not sex first.
conclusion: what most men want about innocent women is sex not true love
Dhanny 143

Why men got bored when a woman talk about Jesus? Because they couldn’t stand being compared to Jesus’ grandeur personality. Similar to woman, when he talk about other woman to her. So basically every one is self centered when one’s life is still incomplete.