What Does Your Body Language Say on a Date?
I’ve never heard of this guy, Blake Eastman. He’s a 27-year-old guy in New York who is a body language expert and runs dating workshops. But just because I don’t know who he is doesn’t mean he’s not onto something.
Believe me, you don’t need a doctorate in order to help others.
You just need to be a keen observer of people and willing to speak an objective truth. The rest is just practice in pattern recognition. That’s what I’ve been doing here for nearly 10 years. That’s what it appears Eastman does as well. He gets people to look at themselves in the mirror – almost literally.
Eastman gets people to look at themselves in the mirror – almost literally.
Says Eastman, in response to a question about how daters can improve their skills. “Video,” he says. “You watch yourself on tape. Then you can change.” It might be a creepy move to set up a video camera on a first date, but Eastman will approximate the experience for you in his workshop by filming you talking to your classmates.”
I’ve always wanted to do something like that, but I find I can reach more people via the Internet than I can in a live seminar. Good for Eastman. As for his take on his success as a body language/dating expert, his take is rather refreshing. Says the Slate article:
“Eastman doesn’t give the impression that he aims to gather admirers but rather that he yearns to help people feel as comfortable as he’s learned to feel. “Communication is the most important part of relationships,” he says. “I want people to learn to communicate.”
Amen to that.
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70 Comments »Filed Under Uncategorized
Jackie Holness 1
Body language says a lot, particularly in pictures…Wendy Williams talks about this a lot
RW 2
Very cool article. I’m fascinated and want to attend a workshop after reading about this, just to see what he can tell me about myself that I wouldn’t notice even after watching a tape.
Some other guy 3
I think it’s fun to dwell on non-creepy ways of secretly videotaping a first date
Michele 4
I took two of Blake’s workshops and found them very insightful. Yet I still have Qs about men and deciphering their interest level.
Anna 5
Good God, there is a ucker born every minute. So now we have a post-pubescent “body language expert”? Is there anyone out there who is not an “expert” ? Are people so lame that they need to be told that they look/feel uncomfortable? Here is the trick, POLISH YOUR MANNERS and then go out on a date. It is called etiquette training and has been around since the 1900s. You don’t need videos, seminars, spending money and snake oll salesmen. The “relationship expert” racket is starting to get tired
Still-Looking 6
Michele@4
It’s probably much easier to portray a certain image than it is to accurately decipher an individual’s actual level of interest. Anyone can be taught to display the classic signs of interest – good eye contact, arms not folded across the chest, turning one’s torso towards the other party, plenty of smiling, etc. – and most know when someone of the opposite sex is flirting with them. The problem is deciphering what the other person is actually feeling. Is the waitress truly interested in me or is she just doing her best to be friendly in an effort to get a larger tip? Is my date truly interested in me or is she this relaxed and friendly to every person she meets? Is my date not interested or is she always shy and nervous until she gets to know someone?
If we had videos of each of the 3 women interacting with 10 men we could analyze the tapes and perhaps make some accurate assessments. However we usually have no idea how an individual acts while on a first date so it is incredibly easy to make the wrong assessment.
My advice, “Focus on post-date actions (phone calls, request for another date, etc.), don’t focus on a man’s body language.” Great body language and no post-date phone call leads to only one inescapable conclusion.
John 7
Still Looking @6
Totally agree with your points. I don’t see how videotaping me will help me much. What would be far more valuable is to view the actions of the woman on the date and how to interpret her body language. I think everyone here knows what to do if you are interested in someone- lean in when talking, the occasional touch, etc. The problem arises when the other person gives all the good signals too, (occasional touch on arm, leaning in) and then the dreaded folded arms mixed in there too. Talk about a conflict of signals! But like Still Looking said in #6, its the post date actions that are the real tell.
Amelia2.0 8
I actually can see the benefit of this. Not everyone may have grown up getting adequate feedback on their body language/posture from parents or other important figures, who may have even set a bad example. “Manners” may therefore be a nebulous term for some and they need help understanding the importance of having such skills.
Also, when someone holds a mirror up to you, and you cringe– that’s not someone else telling you what is wrong. That’s YOU telling YOU what is wrong. And we tend to listen to ourselves a lot better than other people. Sometimes people need a little bit of forced self-awareness in order to motivate them to make the corrections they need.
Karmic Equation 9
@Still-Looking
Great advice. I agree with you 100%.
@Michele 4
If a man approaches — I’m assuming you’re meeting men IRL — then that’s indication that he’s “interested enough” to break from his inertia. However, LEVEL OF INTEREST, as Still-Looking says, can’t be discerned from body language, but you might discern “character.” Level of interest can more easily be gauged by his EFFORTS post-date. If he’s VERY interested, contact will be quick and frequent (within a couple of days of date, if not merely hours after). If he’s only somewhat interested, there will be more space between contact and frequency (more than 3 days). If he’s not really interested and just kicking the tires, the space will more likely be weeks between contact, unless traveling and he actually lets you know that in advance.
Chance 10
Anna said (#5)
Are people so lame that they need to be told that they look/feel uncomfortable?
Sometimes people are unaware of how they come across, and it affects their success in dating, relationships, work, etc. These people can benefit from seeing themselves on tape and receiving objective feedback.
Here is the trick, POLISH YOUR MANNERS and then go out on a date. It is called etiquette training and has been around since the 1900s.
I think these video recordings can help one polish his/her manners.
You don’t need videos, seminars, spending money and snake oll salesmen. The “relationship expert” racket is starting to get tired.
Your opinion is respected. Strange you’re on this site, however, if that is your sentiment.
Evan Marc Katz 11
“Anna”, you’ve been asked to leave this site three different times because you insult me every time you post. So why don’t you take your gorgeous, brilliant, happily-in-love ass to a site that you actually enjoy?
It’s hard for me to fathom why such an impressive, has-it-all-together woman with an amazing boyfriend would frequent a blog of one of us “relationship expert” hucksters.
No need to reply. Really.
RW 12
@ EMK 11
I always wonder whether she just has way too much time on her hands or if she’s trying to rile people to see how far she can push them. I’m really sorry she insults you. In any case, her trolling reminds me of this:
If you don’t mind, let the troll be. She’s entertaining
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwGFalTRHDA&feature=youtu.be
Some other guy 13
Where’s the “Like” button when you need it?
Fusee 14
Although useful to evaluate someone’s interest, I think that for ladies a better way to use body language skills is to generate and/or increase a prospect’s interest. As a previous commenter wrote, post-date action will tell us plenty about their interest level, so there is not much need to over-analyze their body language on the date. However adequate pre- and in-date non-verbal communication can positively affect their interest level and therefore greatly enhance post-date response.
I was just talking about this topic with a female friend yesterday, as she realized that she may be projecting a not-too-ideal vibe to guys she is interested in, due to shyness or other factors. Although I think we can become a bit more aware of our non-verbal communication and improve it, I unfortunately do not believe that we can completely control our body language since it’s the reflection of our emotional and mental state. If we do not truly enjoy the process of meeting men and/or if we are extremely shy or anxious around them, no amount of controlled body language will compensate these patterns and increase their interest. So to me it all comes back to mental/emotional training, and the necessity of bringing oneself into the adequate mindset first. Apropriate non-verbal communication will naturally follow, without too much need to control it.
Lia 15
“Anna” you have been outed yet again. Weren’t you the one who was “Marcia” and claimed to be“the “supermodel’ type in looks, History degree from an Ivy school, two foreign languages, and brilliant cooking skills”?
Well you’ve cooked your goose here. I do believe you are… history (okay I just couldn’t resist). Let me bid you a fond (or not so fond) farewell..
Auf Wiedersehen – German
Adios – Spanish
Paalam – Filipino
Zai Jian – Chinese, Mandarin
Farvel – Danish
Żegnaj – Polish
Adeus – Portuguese
Aloha – Hawaiian
Hejdå – Swedish
Au Revoir – French
Ciao – Italian
Dag – Dutch
Khuda Hafiz – Urdu
Sees – Norwegian
Shalom – Hebrew
Just in case none of these are the foreign languages that you speak…
GOODBYE!
David T 16
@Lia
You forgot to use body language. A gesture, perhaps?
Lia 17
@ David T
LOL… my bad!
Sparkling Emerald 18
Fusee #14- “I unfortunately do not believe that we can completely control our body language since it’s the reflection of our emotional and mental state. If we do not truly enjoy the process of meeting men and/or if we are extremely shy or anxious around them, no amount of controlled body language will compensate these patterns and increase their interest.”
I agree with your sentiments which is why I have mixed feeling about all of this. Why should we learn to over control our body language anyway ? Really, unless you spend the entire date curled up in the fetal position with your thumb in your mouth, would a tiny bit of fidgeting be so terrible ? So what, if a person displays a tad bit of shyness on a first date ? Isn’t that pretty normal ? Frankly, I find a tad bit of shyness in a guy a little charming. Who wants Mr Cocky and Arrogant anyway ? I think as more and more people start over analyzing and trying to control their body language, it will CREATE more body language problems than it will help. Seriously, if my date is searching me with a fine tooth comb, looking for signs of lying, disinterest,*etc. I am going to start to feel nervous, my body language will show it, etc. If one is intentionally trying to use body language to convey something that they aren’t feeling, well, there’s those “mixed signals” for ya. If you read too many articles on body language, once again, the info starts to clash. Let see, am I supposed to lean in to show interest, or lean back to get him to lean toward me ? Is brushing my hair back flirtatious or is it “fidgeting” and a sign of nervousness ? Is crossing legs or ankles being “ladylike” or is it a sign of being closed off ? He’s leaning in towards me, is he interested or overly aggressive ? Etc., etc.
Ruby 19
I’m not sure that I would call Eastman a huckster. I think there’s some validity to what he says. Have you ever been on a date with someone with poor posture? They appear to lack confidence. Are they fidgeting, or not looking you in the eye? Maybe they’re not comfortable with you, or not really interested.
I once read about a woman who didn’t understand why she wasn’t getting second dates. It turned out that even though she was well-educated, she sometimes used poor grammar, and had a tendency to brag about her accomplishments, as if she was trying to impress her date. She didn’t realize these things until she heard herself on tape. Not exactly body language, but it clued her in to behaviors she hadn’t been aware of. These things may seem obvious, but they may not be to the person doing them.
London lass 20
I read an article once (sorry I can’t remember the source off the top of my head) which suggested that people are very good at picking up when someone is artificially modifying their body language for effect: for instance, if someone tries too hard to mirror someone else it can feel ‘clunky’ and the person they are trying to mirror can feel distinctly uncomfortable: I think the take home message was that body language is important but to be effective it should be as natural and unforced as possible.
Sparkling Emerald 21
London Lass #20 “I read an article once (sorry I can’t remember the source off the top of my head) which suggested that people are very good at picking up when someone is artificially modifying their body language for effect”
———————————————————————-
Yes ! That’s why I think attempts to micro-manage your own body language, or watching other people like a hawk for their micro-movements will just backfire. It comes down to what Fusee said, in #14, about really needing to be in the right frame of mind, since our body language reflects what we are thinking and feeling. Also, like spoken language, it is a conversation, and what you “say” with your body will be affected by what the other person “says” with theirs. Environmental factors will also affect body language. Is the room too hot or cold? Is it dimly lit or bright ? What is the noise level ? Certain gestures can also have more than one meaning (just like spoken words can have more than one meaning) So reading too much into one or two micro gestures (provided it isn’t someone throwing a drink in your face ) can give a false reading. Having basic good posture, movement, eye contact, etc., is a good thing, but I do think some body language “experts” make mountains of mole-hills in some cases.
John 22
Ruby @19
I once read about a woman who didn’t understand why she wasn’t getting second dates. It turned out that even though she was well-educated, she sometimes used poor grammar, and had a tendency to brag about her accomplishments, as if she was trying to impress her date.
You couldn’t be more wrong. If a girl is attractive, that will make zero difference to a guy. If she is pretty she could use the grammar of a 5th grader and brag that she has th cure for cancer. A guy can quickly switch from deeming a girl realtionship material to lay material. And if the girl is attractive then she would have no problem getting 2nd dates because guys will just try to see if they can get some action from her, annying habits be damned.
Bottom line is that any girl who doesnt get 2nd dates on a regular basis is not attractive because guys will deal with annoying habits for short periods of time if she is good looking enough or has a hot body. No second dates ON A REGULAR BASIS means the girl just isnt pretty or wont look good in a bikini. There are many, many guys including myself who will go out with a girl a few times no matter how poorly she spoke or bragged if she was good looking enough. First because of the chance to get naked with her and second because a guy will use her looks as justification for giving her a second chance.
I have NEVER had any of my guy friends tell me “she was hot but she bragged too much and spoke poorly so I am not going out withher again”.
Sparkling Emerald 23
John #21 – If a girl is too “unattractive” to get a 2nd date, how did she get the first date to begin with ?
Sparkling Emerald 24
John #21 – Would you go out with a hot girl, if she was a member of the KKK ? How about a convicted criminal ? Bragged about how she tortured kittens ? How low would go for the chance to get naked with a hot girl ?
Lia 25
@ John # 22
“If a girl is attractive that will make zero difference to a guy.”
I am wondering if that consideration would change with age and maturity. I am not disagreeing with you, because I am not a guy so therefor can not speak from experience to that particular thing.
For me as a woman a man’s looks will only go so far (that can be said for his level of education and income as well). I would not judge someone based on a little bad grammar or bragging but if a man was obnoxious and boring, or rude I would not go out with him again.
If any other men would like to comment on this I would be very interested to know what they have to say.
John 26
Sparkling Emerald 23
Would you go out with a hot girl, if she was a member of the KKK ? How about a convicted criminal ? Bragged about how she tortured kittens ?
Classic example of when someone doesnt like the harsh realities of something, they come up with some sarcastic remark disproving it. No, I would not date a convicted criminal or KKK member or kitten torturer even if she was a Victoria Secret model. There is a world of difference between annoying behavior such as bad grammar and bragging and socially reprehensible acts that you mention. Now please mount a better defense than those examples if you wish to refute it. But since you are a woman I presume, then you dont really have any insight as to how the male mind works. And good looks will trump bad grammar any day of the week.
If a girl is too “unattractive” to get a 2nd date, how did she get the first date to begin with ?
If it was an online date, maybe she had one photo. Maybe it was of the girl 35lbs lighter. Maybe it was a picture from 5 years ago. So its very easy to get a first date. But when you see in person, then the real attractiveness comes to light. Of coure if you are referencing a first date in which they meant offline then fine. But for online dating, you dont know what they look like until the date.
Dean 27
Lia #25
“If any other men would like to comment on this I would be very interested to know what they have to say.”
If I had a date with a hot girl and she was boring or used bad grammar but she was into me, then yes I would go out with her again for sure. Maybe I wouldn’t take her home to meet Mom, but I would surely go out with her a second (or 3rd or 4th time) if she liked me. Now if she was ugly and also spoke poorly and was boring then no way would I want to be seen with her.
John #22
Agreed. I dont get the opportunity to date hot women. I usually get average looking women. But if a hottie came my way that was digging me, I will go out with her again for sure. Bad grammar and poor body language on her part would not be a dealbreaker for asking her out a second time.
Sparkling Emerald 28
John #27 – Since you say you usually only get “average” women, does “poor grammar” or “bragging” become a deal breaker also ? Do you expect perfection from women who are only average, but will accept more annoying behavior from hotties ?
I ask because I have noticed (as has everyone else on the planet has) that good looking people can get away with a very high level of obnoxious behavior (mean girls, narcissistic men) while average or only slightly above average people seem to have to meet some sort of other worldly perfection, as if to compensate for being less than a 10.
Also, sorry that you were offended by my hyperbolic question in #23.
herniette 29
“Anna:” You often make valid points but why-oh-why must you always wrap them in ugly personal insults? I agree that we could all stand to polish our manners but doesn’t that advice seem a little odd coming from someone who is consistently so rude to our Blog Host?
Peter 30
I have been in international business since the late 1970′s. Body language across cultures is highly variable. All Anglo Saxons but especially Americans somehow think that their way is right and natural and others will see what the A-S wishes to project or doesn’t even think about. In business, it certainly isn’t so. So far as dating is concerned, personal experience says it isn’t so between the US and the UK and far less so between the UK and Russia. The US and the UK both see the other side as insincere. The opportunities for a man to over-interperate female interest in Russia is huge. British glances at strangers are microseconds long. Russian women stare at men for up to a second to assess them more fully, although man to man in Russia is usually, not always, briefer. Russians hold a greater distance when talking but do much more touching particularly intersexually. An Anglo-Saxon male might find the female stares and the extra touching more of a signal of interest than is warranted. The studied disinterest of the Russian male is not an A-S reaction and can lead to further progress down an unintended path.
Videoing body language conflicts does help in business and I’m sure that it will help in dating although I am one of those who cringes every time I see my own image so I would find it troublesome to watch. When a psychologist date deliberately tried to modify her body language with me, it was not only obvious but done so clumsily (knee bashing and whatever) and with so little sincerity, it was painful to experience. I told her off for it and we got on fine after that.
Peter 31
@Lia 25. For me, great physical attraction can be destroyed by other negative traits and was so when I was dating now or when younger. It doesn’t mean I prefer physically unattractive women with wonderful personalities. My feminine side comes out and I want it all. :-)
Sparkling Emerald 32
Peter – Good point about cultural differences. Things like eye contact, and personal space vary from culture to culture, and have different meanings. Even someone within the same culture, could have extended family members from different cultures, so there body language might not be completely in sync with the larger culture.
Ruby 33
John #22
“You couldn’t be more wrong. If a girl is attractive, that will make zero difference to a guy.”
I’m repeating the story as I read it. It also said that this woman was attractive. The outcome was that, once this woman cleaned up her act, she had no problem getting second dates, and had plenty of men to choose from. I cannot claim to know what ALL men are looking for.
John 34
Sparkling Emerald @28
John #27 – Since you say you usually only get “average” women, does “poor grammar” or “bragging” become a deal breaker also ? Do you expect perfection from women who are only average, but will accept more annoying behavior from hotties ?
I never said I only get average womne. That was another poster. Not me. And by the way, we arent talking accepting poor behavior from hotties. Bad grammar isnt poor behavior. Bragging isnt poor behavior. WHile they are annoying, it isnt being rude or socially unacceptable.
Got anything else? Because so far you are 0 for 2 in refuting the original comment. You use hyperbole to make your point and you quote the wrong person in trying to prove your point. For crying out loud we arent talking about anything major here. Just a second date. Thats all the original point was.
Sparkling Emerald 35
John-Sorry for confusing you with Dean – Your name was right above that comment, so it was an honest mistake.
Lia 36
@ Dean & Peter
Thanks for answering.
Irina 37
As several posters have already noted, increased conciousness of one’s body language can lead to awkward behavior on dates: exaggerated mirroring, rigid behaviour when trying to supress ‘natural’ fidgeting, obsessing about breathing etc…
However, I believe it is also important to acknowledge that certain concious modifications to a person’s body language can increase the feeling of wellbeing and can make someone enjoy a date more, and hopefully transfer these positive feelings to their date.
For example, when a person smiles (although maybe he/she does not feel like smiling) before, or during a date, this may tip your own mood towards a more positive feeling.
Another, more personal example. I dance latin american competitions on a national level. One of the things I try to focus on, especially when walking upon the dance floor, is my poise. When I stand up straight, keep my chin up, shoulders back, sternum forward etc this makes me feel more confident, and the adjudicators are more likley to be under the impression that I am good at what I am doing. (Ofcourse, as a dancer, I always want my performance to be better, but that’s a different issue.)
I believe that looking at your own body language critically would benefit everybody. Because often you do not come across the way you think, or are not concious of certain (easy to improve) issues. Another example (from dancing again) several months ago I was conciously working on several actions with my hands and wrists during the paso doble. I was honestly convinced that what I was doing was clear to the audinece and esthetically attractive. My partner told me that he had no idea what I was trying to do, it looked weird/ugly and we yelled at each other a bit, but when I saw what I was doing on video (long live the smartphones!!!) I had to admit he was right. So, with some feedback from my partner and from the camera, I could improve my dancing.
Bottom line, although dating may not be as extreme as dancing, I believe that a concious evaluation of your own body language would benefit everyone. Whether you really need a coach to do that (or could practice this with friends, whom you can trust to be honest), is a different issue, and one I cannot answer for others.
Girl in the Midwest 38
@ Irina in # 37
I agree with you. What you said reminds me of this:http://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are.html. It’s a little long, but it’s a pretty inspirational talk. Of course she doesn’t directly mention dating in this talk, but one can take the general message of “fake it till you become it” and apply it to other things. If you act a certain way, after a while, it does become genuine and authentic and becomes an integral part of you.
@ Dean and Peter and John
My personal experience is in agreement with you guys. I think for each guy, there is a minimum threshold of attractiveness that the girl must have for her to be considered LTR material. This threshold is different for each guy, and many things modify it to different degrees for different guys. The minimum level of attractiveness is a necessary but insufficient criterion for a guy to commit to a LTR. She’ll also need to have a reasonably good personality, but I think guys are more flexible about that than about looks.
Girl in the Midwest 39
Also wanted to add: having a stellar personality has more of an effect if a girl’s physical attractiveness is in the middle of the bell curve. I think that in terms of women, developing a better personality is going to help a 6 or 7 more than if she’s a 1, because there’s more guys in the middle of the bell curve as well.
Joe 40
@ Irina #37:
The reason you walk upon the floor with that demeanor is to project and connect with the audience and judges (since competitive ballroom is basically performance, like theater). If your body language is closed, they don’t connect with you.
I do imagine it’s similar in dating: the guy or girl who’s outgoing and open (talking and laughing and smiling) gets more attention than the one who’s quiet and retiring. But just like in dancing, if the technique isn’t there, flashiness isn’t enough to win.
David T 41
@Lia 25
Attractiveness ‘gets a foot in the door.’ For me that means I might approach them and talk to them a few times, but no matter how attractive, I won’t even ask them on one date if they manage to do something unappealing enough in those initial stages. Like say something extremely intolerant, or come off as angry or unhappy or selfish or cruel etc. I also learn a lot from watching them interact with other people before I even approach them and sometimes screen ‘em out that way. An otherwise pretty woman can become downright unattractive to me.
I have weeded out attractive (and less attractive) women this way, but it can take a date’s worth of interaction for the true horror of an attractive troll to become apparent. When that happens, I am polite and gracious and see the date through since I regard myself as a host when I ask someone out. (Within reason. I won’t take abuse, but it is likely if they passed that first screening they aren’t completely awful people.) There will be no second date if they are rude, vastly different values, annoying or appear to have some significant relationship impairing issues (like talking obsessively or even possessively about their most recent ex). It does not matter how attractive they are or into me they seem, I am not going to waste my and her time after that.
Initial physical attractiveness is like a movie trailer. I might buy a ticket and still walk out after the first ten minutes of a flashy movie if it looks bad. I can also go into a so-so movie or even one I think I might not like much and end up likingit. Attractiveness in the end combines a lot of things and the physical is a small part.
Different men think differently about this. John 22′s friends who might be quite pleased to ‘lay’ some of the physically attractive but hurting or downright unpleasant women I have met.
Lia, every man is different. If they keep asking a woman out they want to spend time with her, but she can’t know anything more than that. What their motive is might vary from friendship only to sex only to relationship prospect exploration and the only way to find out is to keep spending time together or ask.
Gee whiz, ASK! I know Evan advises against this. If you ask these things in a reasonable way, and don’t make it the core of every interaction sucking all the fun out of being together, and he is still put off, do you want to be in a relationship anyway with someone who can’t communicate comfortably?
Ruby 42
David T #41
“Gee whiz, ASK! I know Evan advises against this. If you ask these things in a reasonable way, and don’t make it the core of every interaction sucking all the fun out of being together, and he is still put off, do you want to be in a relationship anyway with someone who can’t communicate comfortably?”
Thanks for mentioning this. I’d have to say that I’ve been much more negatively impacted by not asking questions, than I have been by speaking up. In fact, it bothers me that so much relationship advice says not to do this because you might scare a man off. It’s all about communication, and it just needs to be done in a non-confrontational way.
Lia 43
@ David T #41
Thanks for jumping in.
“… but it can take a date’s worth of interaction for the true horror of an attractive troll to become apparent.”
LOL!!
“Initial physical attraction is like a movie trailer.”
That is a great line!!! I am going to steal that one the next time I am discussing relationships with my friends… (I will give you credit.)
“Gee whiz ASK!”
I have to admit I am not one to ask about a man’s intentions. I don’t think that a guy would necessarily know what his intentions will be, just what they are in the moment. I find that for me, personally, I like for people to reveal themselves and listen to my intuition. (Okay, I haven’t always listened to my intuition.) I have had the best times on dates when I have no worries about where things were going and I don’t have expectations beyond having a nice time.
I had a guy friend tell me once, “Look, listen and pay attention.” I try to remember that.
Sparkling Emerald 44
David T #41
Thanks for your response, I enjoy hearing the men’s perspectives and I appreciate you POV, because it shows that not all men are alike.
I have been thinking about the ways I have attempted to micro-manage my dating in the past and then I started thinking about the first impressions I have made on past serious relationships. Without going into excruciating detail, I can re-call that my first dates with both my ex-hubbies, and my first serious boyfriend were not stellar dates . (I wasn’t a total troll, but let’s just say there was room for improvement) But I guess THEY considered me “attractive enough” to overlook that. (and there was no getting naked on the following date)
I have decided to relax more about my body language, the conversation, how I look etc. and just enjoy the date. If the guy would dump me over something minorly annoying, then he really isn’t that into me. If the guy finds me annoying, but decides on a second date for the sole purpose of “getting naked”, well that won’t happen, so it’s a moot point. But if the guy IS REALLY INTO ME, the date can withstand some “technical errors” on my part, (and if I AM REALLY INTO HIM, I am not going to let a mis-spoken word, a tad bit of shyness, or some awkward body language) On the other hand, if one or both of us, isn’t into the other, I could behave like I had a black belt in charm school, and a relationship would not develop.
Sparkling Emerald 45
Ruby #19 said “I once read about a woman who didn’t understand why she wasn’t getting second dates. It turned out that even though she was well-educated, she sometimes used poor grammar, and had a tendency to brag about her accomplishments, as if she was trying to impress her date. She didn’t realize these things until she heard herself on tape. Not exactly body language, but it clued her in to behaviors she hadn’t been aware of. These things may seem obvious, but they may not be to the person doing them.”
____________________
I am a bit skeptical of this story (no disrespect intended) , not because I think “You couldn’t be more wrong.” but I just think if she was “well educated” her “sometimes” use of “poor grammar” couldn’t possibly be a deal breaker to someone WHO WAS REALLY INTO HER, but it could be a handy excuse for someone who isn’t. I wasn’t there, so I don’t know about her tendency to “brag”, but unless she proclaimed her self to be the most beautiful, brilliant woman to have ever lived, again, I can’t imagine it being a deal breaker for anyone, except someone who just wasn’t into her. Or someone who was so insecure in their own accomplishments that they couldn’t handle hearing about hers. ( or she may have unwittingly screened out the narcissists, the ones who only want to talk about THEIR accomplishments) I think it might just be a co-incindence that once she “cleaned up her act” she started getting second dates. Hopefully, they weren’t with someone looking to get naked and nothing more.
Sparkling Emerald 46
David T 41 “Gee whiz, ASK! I know Evan advises against this. If you ask these things in a reasonable way, and don’t make it the core of every interaction sucking all the fun out of being together, and he is still put off, do you want to be in a relationship anyway with someone who can’t communicate comfortably?”
) I used to initiate the big R talk if the guy didn’t do it first. I have NEVER had a big R develop, where I was the one who initiated the talk. From past bittersweet experience, I find that if I have to ask “Where is this relationship going ?”, then it isn’t going anywhere. If I have to ask “Where do I stand ?”, then I have no standing. If I have to ask “How do you feel about me ?”, well they aren’t feeling what I’m feeling. After banging my head against that brick wall several times, I learned to just listen to what they DO tell me, and observe how they treat me. Often times, they would initiate the big R talk, just to tell me something along the lines of “I’m not ready for a relationship at this point” blah, blah, blah. (translation: they aren’t into a relationship WITH ME) Eventually I learned to walk away when I heard that talk. And as I got better at walking away I could even do it with a smile and a “Thanks for letting me know. Since we’re not on the same page, I won’t waste any more of your or my time”
David T, I enjoy your posts. However, I agree with EMK on this, but it is not because EMK says so (and almost every other dating coach says this), it is because I have come to this conclusion from my own experience. In my much younger years (in a galaxy far-far away
Anyone that I have ever been serious with, ALWAYS let me know their intentions FIRST. I never even got to the point where I felt the question had to be asked, because they brought it up BEFORE I even thought to feel anxious about the relationship status.
I think the dating coach industry has that part right, ladies, let the men initiate. If they want you THEY WILL INITIATE, if they say “I’m not in place right now for a serious relationship” THEY MEAN IT. I don’t necessarily think that this dooms the rest of the relationship communications wise, either, but initial communications about relationship statuses are best, when the male leads. At least that has been my experience.
David T – I hope you don’t mind me asking, and feel free to ignore my questions if you aren’t comfortable answering. Have you ever been in a serious LTR, where the girl initiated the relationship talk ? If so, did you feel pressured, or were you glad that she brought it up ? Why did she bring it up first, were you on the verge of bringing it up, and she just happened to beat you to it ? Or were just letting her be the one to bring it up, because you prefer it that way ? Really, I’m not trying to interrogate you, I am genuinely curious. Thanks.
justme 47
Concerning Ruby’s story (19).
I know a lot of people are skeptical but seriously what if she BRAGGED ALL NIGHT? Haven’t you ever talked to someone who’s entire conversation revolves around them? Their education, their jobs, their history. I listen politely for about 10 minutes and then excuse myself. Really? Would a guy overlook this?
Ruby 48
Justme #47
I’m not sure where the skepticism comes from. What I read was that the women went on and on about her possessions and accomplishments, trying to impress her dates. It actually made her sound very insecure, as if she had to impress a man or he’d leave. Isn’t EMK always telling successful women that men care more about how a woman makes them feel than he does about her accomplishments?
David T 49
@Sparkling46
Frankly, I don’t remember even for sure HAVING that discussion in any of my 5ish LTRs, including my ill conceived marriage. I suppose we probably did, but it was so second nature, I have no clue who brought what up when and what the content was. It is never a “Big R talk” it is just something that comes up sometimes in the natural course of conversation, perhaps in little pieces. Already by calling it that, I suspect it is a topic you never brought up from a place of ease, comfort and genuine curiosity.
Until the last few years exclusivity was something I had always assumed in relationships once we began kissing and seriously making out and certainly once we were saying I love you to each other. Early in my last LTR she became very concerned and fearful that I was not being faithful to her and broke up, citing all kinds of things that concerned her. We reconciled after one of the longest weeks of my life. Once she stated her concerns I was able and happy (eager!) to make some changes to help her feel more secure.
After that I developed a keen appreciation for clear communication In my last two dating relationships, none of which ever hit LTR status (2 months does not count for me) I brought it up several times, but it was always things like “I like you and am enjoying our time and want to see where this will go.” It was never a big deal discussion though, it just came up in the natural flow. With one, I did specifically want to bring it up because I felt like she was becoming too invested and I did not want her to be hurt since I was less and less certain about if it was going to last. I also ended both of those relationships.
Until I started reading this blog, I don’t believe I ever thought of exclusivity or declaring someone your girlfriend or boyfriend as something that needed to be directly stated; if you are saying “I love you” then of COURSE you are exclusive. Now I see that a lot of women do like to hear it spelled so I try to make a point to explain what I am feeling and where I am coming from. (After one reconciliation, I found out we were reconciled because she related a story to me where she had referred to my car as “my boyfriend’s car” to someone. I had no idea we were romantically back together until that moment!)
I have never felt “pressured” by anyone. I have no problem telling someone how I feel about them if they ask, though I will put some thought into how I say it for the sake of tact.
So Emerald, I think it is something people should talk about without it being a Big R talk or a Big Deal. If it feels like a Big Deal, or becomes the only kind of interaction you have maybe the reasons behind that are why the other person decides to leave. Now, I am not the typical guy, so your mileage will vary. . . .
@sparkling44I think overthinking and micromanaging the impression we make on a date is a common mistake. It takes us out of the moment and makes it hard to be fully present as ourselves. Its an easy trap to fall into. (*) I know I over think too much in between dates and I have to be careful of that.
(*)Hmm…no wonder men who are focused on getting their opponent naked, which is all about projecting a particular image to achieve a certain outcome, also have difficulty connecting emotionally. “Game” is the pinnacle of displaying a set of techniques rather than being yourself. The gamer can still be relaxed, but so is an expert surgeon doing his fifty-seventh liver transplant.
Lia 50
@ Sparkling Emerald # 46
Yes, yes, yes! While I do believe communication is vital in a relationship, I do not believe in being the one to bring up the where is this going/ how do you feel talk. In my experience if men don’t bring it up it isn’t on their radar.
Karmic Equation 51
@justme 47
Men don’t think like women…While WOMEN would probably detest a man who bragged all night, no matter how good looking he was…She MIGHT put up with it if he were rich or have some other high “status” (local celebrity, for example). And she’d probably justify it as “He’s famous, OF COURSE he’s going to have a lot of things to be proud of.” — The equivalent justification for beauty for a man would be “OF COURSE she’s going to have a few issues, but she’s HOT!”
So SUBSTITUTE the phrase “Rich or Famous Man” with “Beautiful woman” and you’ll be closer to comparing apples to apples.
Joe 52
Just asking a man about his intentions isn’t necessarily tantamount to THE TALK! You can ask a man about his intentions on the first few dates–you don’t have THE TALK on the first few dates!
Karmic Equation 53
@Joe 52
Usually, if a guy wants to go on 2nd and 3rd dates with me, I’m assuming he wants to bed me at some point. No need to talk about those intentions, lol.
I’ve never had to have “The Talk” with any of LTR men in my life, they’ve all just led and escalated and I’ve just followed their lead. So, I’m just asking this out of curiosity, not to dig at you or anything…How would you suggest phrasing the “intentions” questions?
Are you saying you haven’t ever been spooked by a woman asking you your intentions? How did she do it and what did you say? Curious minds want to know!
Personally, I treat the initial stages of dating as a little bit of chess, a little bit of poker, and a little bit of war… So ASKING a question that clues a guy in to MY thoughts is giving up too much info to the enemy camp, so to speak (not that I regard men as enemies, btw) — like giving away a battle plan or waving a tell in his face. Doesn’t seem like a good strategy in the “battle of the sexes”, which is what I fondly call the process of dating.
Sparkling Emerald 54
David T #46 – Thanks for allowing me to interrogate you
) There probably was a period of time, when it was typical to assume coupledom once the heavy making out began, but somewhere in the late 60′s to eary 70′s that began to change. I started out assuming that because I “made out” with someone we were a couple, but after getting burned by “I never promised you anything”, I had to stop assuming. (It took me a loong time to get this) I think at some point, random making out with No strings attached became the norm, eventually it escalated to random sex with no strings became the norm. “I never promised you anything” became a convenient excuse. Eventually sex with no strings attached was as available as tap water, and women began fooling themselves into thinking they were fine with no strings flings. After being in a couple of “non-relationships” and feeling hurt because I assumed that we were exclusive because we had made out or whatever, I FINALLY stopped assuming. Men even became more upfront about their lack of promise. Instead of just bedding women, and then pulling the old “I never promised you” line, they would start admitting right up front “I’m not promising you anything”. (Sometimes they waited until they were half naked to admit it, but at least they came out and said it) At one point, I observed more of these “No strings attached” relationships the real committed relationships. (at least among my peers, not counting the older gen) Eventually after kicking myself in the butt for falling for a guy “Who didn’t promise me anything” or Specifically promised me NOTHING, I wised up. The LTR’s where the guy initiated “labeling” the relationship, usually wasn’t a big “talk”, but was something as simple as introducing me as “his girlfriend”. Or before the intro could me made, someone would say, “So this must be your girlfriend I’ve heard so much about, she’s as pretty as you say she is !” or something like that.
You said________________________________________________________
Until the last few years exclusivity was something I had always assumed in relationships once we began kissing and seriously making out and certainly once we were saying I love you to each other. Early in my last LTR she became very concerned and fearful that I was not being faithful to her and broke up, citing all kinds of things that concerned her. We reconciled after one of the longest weeks of my life. Once she stated her concerns I was able and happy (eager!) to make some changes to help her feel more secure.
______________________________________________________________
Well, not to sound like Sara Palin, but you are a maverick if you assume exclusivity once the heavy making out begins. And I commend you for it. I came of age in the 70′s, near the beginning of the “sexual revolution”. (I think that really means when sex became revolting
This stupid little ditty was a staple of the sexual revolution
“I do my thing, and you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it’s beautiful”
As well as the general attitude of living for today and not “worrying” about tommorow. Thinking or planning for a future was dismissed as worrying, people who didn’t drop their pants and the drop of a hat were considered uptight. (not saying this was 100% of the people felt this way, but it was a common attitude, whereas a generation before, people who thought that way were the odd ones)
You also said “Until I started reading this blog, I don’t believe I ever thought of exclusivity or declaring someone your girlfriend or boyfriend as something that needed to be directly stated;”
I can understand how you felt that way, since you seem to assume exclusivity, once the physical relationship gets to a certain point (yay for you ! ) but many men do NOT. Getting a woman NAKED is the end goal, even if she is deemed unworthy of a relationship. And you don’t have to take this Blog’s word for it. Just google “Unlabeled relationship” or “Non relationship” , you will see this is something women struggle with. I get newsletters from male websites selling coaching advice for men who want NSA sex. One of the e-mails I rec’d began with
“First, let’s define success:
A “successful” date ends in sex.
Life’s too short, so let’s not beat around the bush.
We’ve found that sleeping with a woman as early as possible usually gives you the most power to create a relationship of your choice – whether that’s a traditional relationship, an open relationship, friends-with-benefits or something more exotic.
Also – it’s easier than you think.
If you follow our blueprint for successful dates, you’ll get the girl and she’ll be telling her friends the next day that “it just happened” with a smile on her face.
________
Not only is this hook up culture prevalent, apparently men are paying thousands of dollars to learn how to make the most of it. Men are being schooled in how to create a “non-relationship” with an “insignifigant other”
Right or Wrong, this is why a woman would be wise to wait until there has been some declaration of coupledom before becoming to intimate. (of course, the guy could be lying to get into your pants, but short of a lie detector test, what else can we do ?)
marymary 55
Sparkling
In the UK, exclusivity is assumed from the first date. In fact, “exlusivity” isn’t even a word we use in that way. It’s not automatically assumed you are in a relationship, but it’s assumed you’re not dating anyone else. We don’t even call it a date, we manage to get together somehow but being formally asked out isn’t that common. There’s a lot of hanging around in groups (that’s how I met my boyfriend) or going to the pub in groups (not like going to a bar, usually more relaxed).
Of course, I’m sure people DO have more than one person on the go but it’s frowned about, and referred to as “two-timing”.
I’m not saying it’s better or worse, it’s just how it is and I expect it’s different with online dating.
People still hook up and have casual sex but either a)it’s obvious to everyone else but them that it’s casual or b) they know it’s casual and are either happy with it or unhappy with it and hoping for an “upgrade”. I guess that’s the same over the pond though. Or everywhere.
Tom10 56
Marymary
“In the UK, exclusivity is assumed from the first date.”
Um…no it’s not.
Although I’m not British I’m there regularly and have many friends who live there.
It’s as Sparkling Emerald said: until ‘the situation’ has been officially declared either party is free to do whatever they want. This is a worldwide ‘rule’. It would be extremely naïve of a woman anywhere to assume exclusivity from the first date.
“I’m sure people DO have more than one person on the go but it’s frowned about, and referred to as “two-timing”
Well no, two-timing only applies if you are an official couple. And who cares what people frown about.
Sparkling Emerald
You have it in one. For many men “getting a woman NAKED is the end goal, even if she is deemed unworthy of a relationship.”
And
“this is why a woman would be wise it wait until there has been some declaration of coupledom before becoming to intimate”
Bingo! This is what Evan has been advocating all the time. This is what women need to keep reminding themselves – until he’s your boyfriend he’s not real. Men will step up quickly if they are actually genuinely interested. Otherwise they will leave you hanging for as long as it suits them. You will need skill to negotiate the ‘subtle dance of indicating interest but protecting yourself’ (ref Fusee) – because men with options will disappear quickly if they feel you are playing games about when to have sex.
Fusee 57
Joe @52: “Just asking a man about his intentions isn’t necessarily tantamount to THE TALK! You can ask a man about his intentions on the first few dates–you don’t have THE TALK on the first few dates!”
Karmic Equation @53: “So, I’m just asking this out of curiosity, not to dig at you or anything…How would you suggest phrasing the “intentions” questions?”
“Personally, I treat the initial stages of dating as a little bit of chess, a little bit of poker, and a little bit of war…”
I agree with Joe, but I would actually suggest not even asking about his intention, but simply state your dating goals and the fact that “you do not really know what his are at this point since you’re just starting to get to know one another”. Of course, it only makes sense to say that BEFORE anything physical happens. That’s the “Check!” of Karmic Equation‘s chess game analogy. Then you simply wait for the next move : )
My guy processed the “statement” for the last few hours of date #3, and at the end of the day, before walking me to my door and without me having brought up anything else on the topic (and definitely thinking that “disappearing” was the most likely future move and being totally fine with that), he sat me down on a public bench and explained to me that “he had been looking for a fling, but as he had also always wanted to find someone to share his life with, he could also imagine going on the serious track in a few weeks down the line since he liked me so much and already felt such strong connexion”.
If you market yourself as “easy”, you get “easy”, which is awesome if you indeed like “easy”. If you market yourself as “future wife”, you may not get what you want, but at least you do not get what you do NOT want. It does not work for everyone, but it sure worked well for me. It made guys who wanted a fling out of me disappear fast to leave me available for my guy who would have taken a fling if I had gone with his flow but who upgraded his options when he realized that 1. I was a rare find, 2. I was serious about my goals and would not hesitate giving a warm goodbye hug for anything less.
Sparkling Emerald 58
Fusee #57 You said ” If you market yourself as “future wife”, you may not get what you want, but at least you do not get what you do NOT want.”
Did you state that marriage was your dating goal ? Or did you say something else, like long term relationship, etc ? Another female dating coach (one who apparently gives word for word scripts for dating) recommends saying something like, “I’m not looking for a boyfriend, I’m looking for a husband, until I find him I can’t be exclusive” then she recommends dating several men until one proposes. Although I would like to know “where a relationship is going” before I get physical with anyone, her approach seems too extreme. I think saying that on a first date would scare even a potential husband off. Also, that approach seems to me, to be coming from a place of being “in love with love” or in love with the idea of marriage, and someone who will just marry any willing guy, regardless of her feeling for him.
Also, since I’ve already been married twice, am past child bearing age, I am looking for a LTR, definitely don’t want a fling, friends with benefits, one night stands or anything like that, but it wouldn’t necessarily HAVE to be marriage, although I haven’t dismissed that possibility altogether.
Fusee 59
@Sparkling Emerald #58:“Did you state that marriage was your dating goal ? Or did you say something else, like long term relationship, etc ?”
I went from using vague vocabulary to more specific language to the M word in six months. On date #3, as he was initiating physical contact, I simply said that while I found him attractive and awesome I was concerned that he was looking for a fling (everything indicated such intention), as I do not do flings but rather have more serious long-term goals. I validated the desire for flings of course, no judgement, but made clear that I was not going down that road and expressed my concern for a lack of compatibility at that level. I basically gave him a royal opportunity to disappear : ) As I worte @57 he did not (while another guy did previously). On date #12 or so, as at that point we really liked each other and had discovered all our common values and great compatibility, my vocabulary became more specific as I needed him to step up if our relationship had to progress physically (he was starting to be a little impatient, and me too). I said that I was interested in exploring the potential for building a relationship that would be like a great team going through life together. At 6 months, I explained that “long-term” means marriage to me (and gave my reasons for why I was interested in the legal aspect of the commitment), and followed by asking if this is something he was interested in (independently of me, just in general, and then when he said yes, I asked him if he saw some potential with me at that point). Obviously it always was a two-sided conversation, but I’m only writing what I actually said.
My opinion is that there is no need to use big words too soon. An intention can be expressed early on with easy-going language, and progressively clarified later on. However if the guy got “scared” by the M word, then we’d obviously not be compatible. I am not interested in guy who get “scared” or “threatened” by a very natural life goal, by a simple expression of a personal purpose, and by curiosity-based questions. Come on, this is dating! And there is a huge difference between dating with a purpose and demanding that a specific prospect give me what I want. If he did not get that difference, I’d suspect we’d have worse communication (ego?) issues down the line, so I’d happily pass and keep myself single for the next one.
But again, I am (was : ) a very happy and secure single woman, so I am (was) fine with the idea of walking away, or seeing a “scared” guy disappear. It got a bit harder to remain so open to any outcome as the relationship progressed, especially when doubts and commitment fears arose, but that determination acted as a great encouragement to trigger and then resolve issues, and continue to progress on the path to the ultimate commitment.
Peter 60
There’s no exclusivity in Russia! Russian marriage became rather weak during the Soviet period because of deliberate abolition of marriage by feminist socialists and many 10′s of millions of men killed by revolution, civil war, famine, political purges and war. It’s taken for granted that both parties are two timing until marriage. After motherhood, it is just the man who is expected to two time. Male body language is always sexually aggressive.
Sparkling Emerald 61
Fusee #59 – Thanks for your response, it is giving me some ideas for how I might handle future situations. (I just recently got out of a very long marriage, and I feel like I am a newcomer to dating all over again) I LOL’d that you used the phrase “The M word”.
I also use that phrase.
With my 2nd hubby, I never even had time to get anxious about “where the relationship” was going, he was upfront about his intentions very early on. I only had a very brief period of wondering where I stood, and I think that was more due to my own insecurities than anything he did. I know it all blew up in my face 23 years later, but I really want my next relationship to have that magical beginning of a man sweeping me off my feet, wooing ME, HIM being the one chasing me and hoping I will love him, be his girlfriend etc. I ended up with a horrible marriage, that left me emotionally stranded mid life, but at least I do have wonderful memories of a whirl wind courtship, a starry eyed newly wed experience, and about 10-12 happy years, and most importantly, my son. (However, next time, I won’t marry so quickly, if I marry at all)
It will be interesting to see how my love life unfolds this time around. Thanks again for your feed back !
Sparkling Emerald 62
Hi Tom10 56 -Thanks for your response . You said “You will need skill to negotiate the ‘subtle dance of indicating interest but protecting yourself’ (ref Fusee) – because men with options will disappear quickly if they feel you are playing games about when to have sex.”
———————–
You are right, it takes more skill than playing chess to learn to navigate the rubic’s cube called the dating world. Which is why I read so many relationship blogs, ‘cuz I’ve been out of the game so long, I feel like I still need my training wheels. I think “men with options’ will also disappear if you give them sex the instant they make a play for it. That’s why I see no risk to waiting until I know where I stand, I am satisfied with the status of the relationship and I am ready. If we’re not on the same page, or even in the same book, frankly, the disappearing act is doing me a favor. I would rather be dumped because I wouldn’t hump instead of being humped AND dumped.
Some men might honestly interpret this as “playing games” and others might ACCUSE women of waiting until they know where they stand of “Playing games” in an effort to bully them into sex. Unless BOTH people want it, it’s worthless in my book. In another thread, one (male) poster all but called a “hot girl” a prostitute for wanting to know where she stood before hopping into bed (He didn’t come right out and call her a hooker, but he accused her of “bartering” her sex like it was on e-bay) He just badgered her on and on, for DARING to want to have sex on HER terms, EMK finally told him to knock it off
I think a woman who would lead a man on, (for whatever reason) knowing that she will NEVER be attracted to him, NEVER have sex with him, is playing games. A woman who waits until she is sure that the relationship is where she wants it to be before she falls into bed is being WISE. And if someone pulls the disappearing act because they don’t appreciate her wisdom, they have done her a FAVOR.
Lia 63
@ Fusee # 57
“I was serious about my goals and would not hesitate giving a warm hug goodbye for anything less.”
I really like that!! It show you have self respect, confidence, and trust that you will be okay if a man is not interested in having a relationship. You don’t settle for being treated less than you deserve.
Sparkling Emerald # 58
“Also since I’ve been married twice, am past child bearing age, I am looking for a LTR, definitely don’t want a fling, friends with benefits, one night stands or anything like that, but it wouldn’t necessarily HAVE to be marriage, although I haven’t dismissed that possibility altogether.”
I am in the same boat that you are in. I think that we are close to the same age. The thing is that while I was raised with the belief that marriage SHOULD be the end goal, I always had a strong resistance to marriage. (Though I did marry… and divorce.) I am not sure how to navigate that particular dichotomy.
Sparkling Emerald 64
Lia #63 said “I am in the same boat that you are in. I think that we are close to the same age. The thing is that while I was raised with the belief that marriage SHOULD be the end goal, I always had a strong resistance to marriage. (Though I did marry… and divorce.) I am not sure how to navigate that particular dichotomy.”
——————
I was raised with the same belief, but came of age when everything was turned topsy-turvy (sexual revolution, femnism, etc) After being the little princessy, girly-girl who was always playing house, playing with dolls, I became anti-marriage & motherhood somewhere in my teens & 20′s (think it had a lot to do with being the by-product of a pretty dysfunctional marriage). Once I softened up and once again became a “girly-girl” who wanted to settle down, it seemed to be too late. The good ones were taken. I was thrilled when I met my 2nd hubby, and he was dating for a wife & the mother of his children, and I did fall madly in love, too madly in fact. I really wish now I was open to marriage when I was younger, I feel like I set life on a trajectory of a failed love life, by coming in to the game to late. At this point, I think weather or not I am “open” to marriage, or an LTR is a moot point. I can’t seem to get past e-mails on match.com, and the few men I meet IRL don’t work out either.
Lia 65
Sparkling Emerald # 64
Don’t give up!! When we look back on life and the choices we have made we THINK that things would have been better if we had turned right instead of left, stayed instead of moving on. You are who you are and have the insights and wisdom you have because of the road you have walked. You can never really know what “might have been” because it wasn’t.
My mom met her soul mate in her mid sixties. They had ten years together before he died. Now one could say, “Too bad they didn’t meet decades ago. They would have been so happy.” But that is not true. They would not have been ready for the relationship they had if they had met earlier. The paths they walked separately prepared them for the one they walked together.
David T 66
@Lia 65
Very well said.
Sometimes I think about relationships of mine that didn’t work out and wonder “what would have happened if we had met 10 years/20 years (etc.) earlier?” Well, chances are NOTHING, because one or both of us would not have been attracted to who we were then! “If this had happened” and “if only I had done that” thinking is not very constructive. Living in a daydream past is amusing, but we only have what we do with today and plans for tomorrow.
Sparkling Emerald 67
Lia & David T – You are both right, speculations on “woulda, coulda, shoulda” can be entertaining but not really useful. My grandma took a second walk down the aisle in her 80′s. One of the customers at my night job came in our store to buy clothes to wear for grandpa’s wedding. (Grandpa was 70) I told them how wonderful it was that grandpa was getting married and I said “That gives me hope”. The woman looked at me and said “Honey, you will be snapped up soon, look at you ! You look great !” So maybe, just maybe, if I live long enough, my great grandchildren will be the flower girl and ring bearer for my wedding.
Lia 68
@ David T
Thank you.
@ Sparkling Emerald
I think you and I are probably close in age. I kind of get that you like self-deprecating humor. I tend to do that too but I am starting to watch out for that because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. (And my sisters really nail me on that if I do it too much.) If I am wrong about this I apologize. The woman said you would be snapped up soon. That is what I hope for you.
Karla (NineGPS) 69
It is very easy to sleep on body language. The problem for most of us is that it is very challenging for us to be self aware enough to make necessary modifications in our body language. The good news is that if you do have solid self awareness and have challenges with body language, you can reign yourself in a very short period of time.
Sparkling Emerald 70
Lia #68 Thank you.