What Should I Do if My Long-Distance Relationship Can’t Get Closer?
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My boyfriend and I have been dating for 18 months. Because I followed your advice in Why He Disappeared, the relationship has evolved naturally over time. I am 52 and he is a young 66. For the past few months we have been seeing each other five or six nights a week. While we both have baggage, we have been mostly successful at working through it. It is the best relationship I have had for a very long time. He is a very good boyfriend. So far so good, right? Except…
When we started dating, he was “between jobs” as they say. Because he is a mid-level executive, he had enough money in the bank that it didn’t really affect him in the short term, but it was a threat to his long-term financial stability. Since he is very close to retirement, this was a huge source of stress. When the job market started picking up and he began getting lots of calls from recruiters, we agreed he would only look at jobs in the area.
About four weeks ago, he got offered and accepted a job. The position was a perfect fit and the salary is very lucrative. It will allow him to replenish the funds he lost when his 401(k) tanked a few years ago and will leave him set for retirement. Except …. it is 90 miles away! The current plan is he will stay in a hotel Monday through Thursday and be home Friday through Sunday nights. At first, they told him the project would be 1-2 years, but now it looks like it could be up to 5 years. When we first talked about it, I told him we could do anything for a year. Five years is just not possible. He has consistently said our relationship doesn’t need to change – and it’s close enough for me to drive out one night a week. We were more or less living together and now we are back to dating on weekends.
So here is my question: how long do I do this and if I draw a line in the sand, what’s the line? While neither one of us is in a hurry to get married again, I do think moving in together would have been the next logical step. But now everything is up in the air. One good thing is I am a lawyer with my own practice and I could theoretically try to move part of it to the nearby county seat. But when I suggested that, he said it’s early yet and we should wait for a while to see if he likes the job enough to stay there. We agree that we both expect our relationship to continue to be exclusive and I think he can actually see us doing this commuting thing until his project is up. Like most men, he is really good at compartmentalizing. As long as he knows he has me to come home to on Friday night, he is fine. But that’s not the kind of life I want long term. What’s a girl to do? –Annette
Annette,
I’m posting your question, not because I have a good answer for you, but because some questions are completely resistant to good answers.
How boring would it to be read a weekly column that tells every woman that she’s right and that her man is wrong?
And if standing on my soapbox and giving advice for the past 8 years has taught me anything, it’s that most people don’t actually want advice at all. They want validation of what they’re already thinking or doing. Unfortunately, that’s probably why there’s so much conflict on this blog, since there’s absolutely nothing interesting or useful in providing validation. How boring would it to be read a weekly column that tells every woman that she’s right and that her man is wrong?
Your situation is not really about right and wrong, though.
Your situation is about assessing your own needs, and, frankly, that’s not something that anyone else in the world can do for you.
In public policy terms, it’s cost-benefit analysis. What do you gain from him taking this job vs. what do you lose from him taking this job?
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73 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Relationships, Understanding Men
amy 1
It’s not all or nothing. Stay with him with this situation for a certain amount of time, say six months. Then evaluate at six months! Who knows, maybe you’ll like having him only around on weekends, maybe you’ll like the hotel parts. It is too soon to move to a job he doesn’t know he’ll like. But after about 6-8 months, you both may be tired of commuting and then you can see where you’d like to move. You can also tell him you don’t see yourself doing this for five years, but after you both settle in in half a year, you’ll reexamine the situation.
nathan 2
Evan is too generous in his words about the boyfriend. Saying “he didn’t have a choice” just isn’t true. There are always choices, even when it comes to working in a bad economy. What about downsizing your material needs to be with the person you love? What about waiting for another call, since it sounds like he’s been getting a lot of attention lately? Maybe he’s made the right decision, but it wasn’t the only possible decision.
Maya 3
Very nicely said Evan.
Ruby 4
Lots of calls form recruiters don’t necessarily translate into lots of offers. However, maybe Annette wanted the two of them to discuss the situation before he accepted the job? Also, Annette has stated that she is willing to move closer, but her boyfriend isn’t ready until he has really settled into the job. Fair enough. I agree with Amy (#1) that I’d give it another 6 months or so to re-evaluate. Perhaps the job won’t work out and something else local will come up in the meantime. Or he’ll decide he loves the work and he’ll be ready for Annette to move.
Saint Stephen 5
I seriously don’t get you, nathan. Are you saying that her boyfriend should have ignored a real good bird at hand for others in the bush?
People make sacrifices for love and sometimes that’s what makes the love becomes even stronger and better.
The OP should understand that the present circumstance isn’t only tough on her, is tough on her boyfriend too.
If you leave him what’s the guarantee that you will meet someone else soon enough? You could still be alone for a long long time without meeting someone else – if you end this relationship. Seeing someone you love three times a week is better than not seeing anyone else at all.
He could quit his present job in six months or one year or decides that you move closer (Hey anything happens).
You should also consider that given your age, there is a hell of a lot more single women than men. Finding someone wonderful and compatible with you is a blessing – don’t throw it away (if he doesn’t) when trials arise.
YourDatingDiva 6
With all of the new technology these days, you can always communicate via Skype or Facetime etc. The reality is that the distance may actually make your time together better! There are scores of relationships and marriages wherein people just want some alone time and they may be sitting in the same room, but they are ignoring one another, or just wish they were alone. Just because your relationship is different than others, does not mean it can’t work. Write your own rules. Now having said that, if you ask yourself these questions with out the “should” and you realize that your absolutely need someone to physically be there 7 days a week, then there is your decision. Like Evan said, this is a question on YOU can answer.
Goldie 7
Agree with Evan on this one completely. I don’t know which industry the BF works in, but, where I work, getting an offer for a high-paying project at 66 that would last till you are 71 is, well, pretty close to winning the lottery. You don’t say no to that. Also, sounds like the BF has a good plan in mind – wait and see whether the job works out, then have Annette move if she’d like. With that in mind, if the job doesn’t work out, he moves back and they can move in together; if it does work out, she moves closer to him and they can again move in together. Either way, works great for both of them, and they can make it happen within the next year.
Donna 8
Evan is right, and I love those last two sentences – that clinches everything. This lady hasn’t lost anything, and isn’t life always about compromise and accomodation?
Zann 9
EXCELLENT advice, Evan. And probably very helpful to her. As well as others, including me.
Dawn 10
I’ve been with my boyfriend for almost 2 years and we’ve always been long distance. we see each other on weekends and go on small trips together. we live 200 miles apart so I’m thinking 90 miles is awesome!!
is living in the same town the ideal? Yes, but you can make it work on weekends. When we see each other there’s always fun and love and laughter. We will eventually come together but I can’t move yet because I have a teenage daughter who is a high school senior and I wouldn’t dream of moving her. And he owns his own business so it’s not possible for him to move here.
If you love him and he loves you you’ll make it work!
ValleyForgeLady 11
In this economy everyone has to make the best of any real opportunity! Take your time time to make a major decision. Evaluate the emotional bond that you have. Also take advantage of the great technology that exists today to keep people connected. Also, technology may give you an option for a longer week end.
Susan
helene 12
Have to say I’m confused. This guy is 66 and looking at taking this job for 5 YEARS?? Just when exactly does he plan to retire.?! I can understand a man of 25 giving priority to work over a relationship – he has his whole life ahead of him – but a man of 66, who has had the good fortune to attract a professional woman 14 years his junior who loves him and who he can relate to??! Just how many chances at love does this guy think he’s going to have? I can imagine that for the OP, the main issue is not simply that she will only see him on weekends, but the fact that he seems OK with that. Women spend all their lives playing second fiddle to a man’s career, but at their stage in life I am sure she is well tired of that. Just when does a man’s partner actually become a priority to him – sounds like not until he’s in a wheelchair and needs someone to wash his hair for him. The next 5 years are going to be the most fit and active years of their joint future – after that he will be 71. Why waste the best years they potentially have left together skyping when they could be making love, having dinner together, doing the things people work all their lives to be able to do? She is a lawyer, so presumably has a reasonable income – would that not be enough? Sorry, but I don’t get it, and I don’t think the OP can get her head round it either… that’s the issue.
Dan 13
This is a tough economy and we need to compromise if we want a relationship. 90 miles is nothing, given the circumstances. I know a couple that met, dated and got married all while they lived 160 miles apart. They still live in their respective cities, because she doesn’t want to move to his city, and he’s trying his hardest to relocate with no success. But they recognize this and they make it work. Like EMK says, every couple and every person has their own preferences and solutions. If you don’t want this arrangement, dump him and go back to dating. I doubt that will lead to any great solutions either, as we all know from this blog how hard it is to find a relationship, especially as we get older. It also sounds like you both are okay financially, so you have more options in finding a compromise solution. The way I see it, this is a test of your relationship and a test as to how you respond. Whatever you choose will speak to you about what your priorities and values are.
Goldie 14
@ Helene, the letter says that he wants to retire the sooner the better, but that, right now, between his 401K losses and having been out of work for the past few years, he does not have enough money for retirement. I say it is a very prudent position. It is not about material needs at this point; it’s about being able to support yourself ten years from now versus relying on your children, partner, etc, to support you, because your retirement savings are already gone. I’ve heard horror stories. Oh, and for him to retire because she is a lawyer and has a good income? that’s a little premature, I’d say. She hasn’t yet offered to support him, and it is not up to him to ask, and he probably thinks the same way I do on this matter. From what I’ve read in Annette’s letter, I really respect the guy. Heck, if he wasn’t already taken, I’d probably want to meet him!
PS. Personally, I don’t plan on retiring. Would love to, but probably won’t be able to.
Sayanta 15
Among Indian people, situations like this are very common. One person will be in the states for a few years doing his or her PhD and have a fiancé back home, who eventually comes to the States. What can I say? The American convenience mentality has filtered down to relationships…hence the divorce rate
Ruby 16
I can understand someone not being ready to retire at 66. Heck, the man could easily live another 20 years, and this is really his last chance to be able to have a very good job with good income, so that he can have a comfortable retirement. 90 miles apart isn’t that far. But still, I would put a time limit on how long I would be willing to wait for a commitment, if that is what Annette wants. In any case, she’d be doing that with any relationship she might be in.
nathan 17
Stephen, my whole point is that the guy has choices. You can think I’m being unrealistic in asking the questions I did, but it’s simply false that he has no choice but to take this job offer. Since we don’t know his total financial situation, it’s hard to tell if his concerns about money are legitimate, or if they are simply an attempt to maintain a high level material lifestyle into his retirement years. People are far too willing in this society to place material comfort over relationships – and I’m talking about all relationships -family, friends, partners, etc. Now, if he’s sincerely in a position where having this job for a few years means the difference between having enough to be financially stable in retirement, and being poor, well then I’d say it makes sense to take the job. But if it’s just about maintaining an upper middle class lifestyle, then frankly, I’d say he’s foolish.
I say all that and, at the same time, agree that the OP could make this work. Or at least could stick things out for a year or two and see what unfolds. She’s a little too fixated on the fact that the job could last 5 years, when the reality is that he hasn’t even started yet.
Daphne 18
I think that Evan is correct and that the gentleman had no choice but to take this job. Suggesting that he scale back his material needs was silly- people need to live, and I suggest you watch very old people at a local market spending their $2 on food every morning. There doesn’t seem to be any reason this couple can’t survive as a relationship, especially in context of the terrible state of our economy.
Helen 19
Comedian Steve Harvey wrote a book “Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man” that points out that unless a man is satisfied with his work situation, he won’t have emotional energy to devote to a woman. He must have peace with his work first. My own experiences with family and friends confirm this truth.
So in this scenario, it is in Annette’s best interest to let her boyfriend take this job. Any move she makes to block it might result in his growing dissatisfaction, which will ultimately harm the relationship.
I would advise as Evan did even if gender roles were reversed. While reading Annette’s letter, I was shocked to read that the bf found a job at the age of 66. That is nothing short of a miracle in today’s economy – both because of ageism and the shortage of job openings. Of course he should treasure the offer.
It doesn’t mean I’m unsympathetic to Annette. It is a bummer to carry on a long-distance relationship. We went through just a 2-month stretch of that in our own marriage, which was heartbreaking at times. I agree with Amy’s point, to reevaluate in a few months if weekends and one-night trips are enough, or whether she should move, and how healthy the relationship is at that point.
iamtubeprofiles 20
I believed that long distance relationship can last if you really love each other. The most important thing in LDR is constant communication for you to know every day routine of your partner. Email, chat ,cellphone are the best way to communicate.
Gem 21
The point is, he already accepted the job so that’s the reality.
She states it “could” be up to 5 years but possibly not.
At this point the best option for her is to continue the relationship and as others have said, reevaluate in 6 months/ 1 yr., and see how they are feeling. To chuck it now, for this reason, when there are so many unknowns, is just silly to me.
It’s not a perfect situation, but she may find, that it’s workable and they can still be very happy!
Ray 22
There is no such thing as a ‘young 66′. He’s 14 years older than you. You are letting this man suck whatever is left of your youth so that he can have a relationship and his career goals met.
I also disagree that he had no choice. He chose his career first. Period. He had plenty of other choices he could have made… less ‘lucrative’ ones of course. It is only because of the fact he is a man that Evan or anyone else thinks this is ok.
Now he has you as his weekend f-buddy. Sounds like an awesome deal to me. FOR HIM.
My advice would be to continue seeing him, but tell him you are not going to be exclusive without a commitment that demonstrates his ability to take your goals and needs into account as well. With all his ‘hard work’, I doubt he’ll have time to pursue lots of other women… and you will be liberated to find someone closer to home.
Dana 23
@Saint Stephen gives typical male advice “at your age” fear based stuff.
She shouldn’t have been dating a 66 yr old in the first place. He treated her well when it was convenient for him…mostly because she is alot younger. Now he’s back on his feet and wants to keep his ‘options’ open. She should be doing the same thing. Dating other men.
Things won’t change until women make men make hard choices. Keep Mr. Career comes first” around until you find another man. You can bet he’s doing the same thing… which is exactly why he doesn’t want you to move there. He wants to explore his dating options there and doesn’t want to tell you that.
JB 24
Women that are 52 shouldn’t be dating 66 yr. old men for a myriad of reasons let alone try and be in long distance relationship with one. I’m curious as to why she doesn’t date men in her own proper age range….say 48-60. Because she’s the younger one in this scenario and because she’s a woman. Who do you think would have more options if they both put up profiles on Match today? She’s acting like HE’S the last man on the planet and it’s either HIM or spending the rest of her life alone.
Goldie 25
What’s with the suggestions that she shouldn’t date him because he’s too old for her? or that she must be desperate to date someone that’s 14 years older? She likes this guy. She says it’s the best relationship she’s had in a long time. She wants to be with him, not with some random options from Match. And guess what? She doesn’t have to justify her choice to any of us. What are you guys, her mother? You haven’t even seen any of them, and you know whom she should and shouldn’t date? Odd.
@ Nathan, I would agree about the cost-cutting part, if not for his age… as people get into their late 60s and 70s (and older), they run into a whole new category of expenses. Medical bills, prescription drugs, long-term care. That can be a lot of money, and there’s really no good way to cut costs on those.
nathan 26
A few comments about age. First off, if they have a good relationship and get along well , the age difference is not really relevant in general. Second, Ray’s point about the “career man” is really important here. If this guy were 40, and making the same decision, odds are there would be some resistance coming from the women here. Considering that they’ve been together 18 months, I would bet some of the discussion would revolve around whether the guy was serious about commitment, and simply using his career to hide from making more definitive steps towards marriage or some other form of serious commitment. Thirdly, I would guess that the OP is wondering about how long she might have with her boyfriend, given that once you reach you’re 70s, it’s more likely that your health could go. It’s easy enough to see this guy working hard for another four or five years, and then maybe fading off quickly once he retires. This isn’t an uncommon scenario. So, whereas 4 or 5 years of partial separation when you’re in your 30s, 40s, or 50s, isn’t that big of a deal, in this situation, those years might be the only time they get. So, I think it’s a bigger gamble for the OP, and it’s important that we take that into consideration.
Daphne 27
@JB, I was curious about that age difference as well. I am dating a man 9 years older than me (I am 51), and it took him a great deal of persistence to get the first date with me because of that age difference. Once I met him, I was so entranced that I didn’t care about the age difference.
I don’t think I would even go on a first date w a guy 14 years older though. I would be interested to hear from other women on this btw.
Nicole 28
@Nathan, at 66, this is likely his last opportunity for a good paying job.
The fact of the matter is, this isn’t about him wanting to drive Porsches until he is 80. A healthy 66 year old man should be planning for another 20 years, and he should assume that his medical expenses will go up. Now if he’s a at a level where this does give him a cushy retirement, why on earth does that make him a bad guy? So what? I know I work hard and went to school so I can afford certain things so why does that make anyone bad or greedy or selfish? Like Evan said, the only part of this equation that is guaranteed to him is him.
And if his health was to suddenly deteriorate, do we think this lady would pay the bills? It’s really easy to be me, me, me when the wrong choice won’t leave you destitute. Somehow I think she would not want to financially support a destitute old man who needs his diapers changed. He needs to take his chance to take care of himself.
While I personally wouldn’t have a problem with 90 miles, if the guy was 40, his options, his future, and his ability to find other work or to plan for retirement would be much more plentiful. But in this particular economy, I’d still think he was a fool for passing up a golden opportunity.
At 66, a guy who has a chance to rebuild his retirement nest egg would be a FOOL not to take it, and he’s being really thoughtful about not having her uproot her professional life until he knows that his is more solid, b/c it sounds like kind of a long term contract which of course could be terminated at any time, no matter what the terms currently are.
I’m with Goldie, I was an engineer in an industry that has been DECIMATED over the past few years and the biggest casualties during layoffs were people over 45. My chronological peers never got touched but the older people got dumped and NO ONE will hire them. And now I’m in tech, and that too is a young man’s game where the “old” people are young Baby Boomers.
If you’ve ever been unemployed, you’d know that being out of work for several years will ruin the best of planners savers, and not b/c they were busy building vacation houses and buying Range Rovers. If you don’t work for 24 months, having a modest lifestyle just prolongs the amount of time that you can plod along(as long as you don’ have any emergencies), but it doesn’t mean you are set for life. Medical expenses alone force a lot of people into long term poverty. This guy got lucky twice with his relationship and his job, but I hope the OP doesn’t try to make him choose or emotionally blackmail him into a choice that makes his own future dicey.
Teresa 29
I am 55 and I don’t see myself with someone more than a couple year older than me. It’s not so much the age difference it is more about what life stage one is in. Men over 60 are generally retired or headed that way.
Retirement for me is at least 12 -15 years away maybe never depending on finances. And generally speaking men over 60 tend to be more conservative as far as attitudes toward women and gender roles.
As for the OP who knows if this relationship will last? Take it a day at a time maybe reevaluate in a few months.
Selena 30
I live and work in an area with a large retiree population. I think a “young” 66 yr. old who is still interested doing in something other than playing golf, sitting on the couch watching CNN all day, and insisting accompanying his wife to the grocery store to price comparison canned goods would be quite a catch.
My guess? Part of the reason you, at 52, find this man attractive is because he doesn’t fit the above retired man mold. You can work with this. If I were you, I would want to try.
Angie 31
Annette,
The best thing you should do right now is to quit overanalyzing. Playing the “What if?” game rarely does any good and it mostly just leads to frustration, which is what it seems you are experiencing.
Both you and your boyfriend should install skyoe on your computers. I find it much more enjoyable to skype than to speak on the phone.
You should consider staying one night a week at his hotel, if you have the flexibility. Sometimes it’s fun to try out different restaurants or if the new town has any theaters, etc, and treat it like a mini getaway.
I would wait to see if something is bad before labeling it as bad. You should really evaluate your position based on the reality and not your prediction. Your challenges are whether or not you will be lonely and whether or not you can keep up decent communication, but knowing the challenges is a good way of working through something.
Either way, I would at least hold off a few months before making any big decisions.
Selena 32
@Daphne #27
When I was 38 I became involved with a man 15 yrs my senior. Though I thought it a significant age difference (he was 6-7 yrs. younger than my parents) it didn’t feel like a difference at all during the years we were together. I attribute this to both of us being in the same lifestage. We were middle aged, working, had children at home – I had mine at 22, he had his in his 40′s so we were both still in the child-rearing stage. We also had compatible personalities, and outlooks.
Now that I am older, someone 14 – 15 yrs my senior is likely to be retired, or retiring soon. I believe how compatible I would be with such a person would depend on the kind of lifestyle they chose. In their retirement how involved are they staying in the world beyond home? Most important would be forming a strong connection – we will need that to face the health challenges that inevitably come along with the ‘golden years’.
Ray 33
Actually, I’m going to attempt to answer the question that Evan didn’t. She wants to know where to draw the line.
They’ve been together for a year and a half. Most people have an idea by then if they want to be in a committed relationship or not. The OP knew she was getting involved with a man who was inbetween jobs… so one could argue she knew there was some possibility he would not get another job nearby.
BUT… here is the big BUT. I don’t see where he has factored her into his life beyond being fun-time girlfriend who helped him get through a rough patch.
He is telling her he doesn’t want her to make any changes in her life… maybe that is ‘admirable’… maybe it isn’t.
I don’t think that any man who is 14 years older is a ‘catch’ under any circumstances. She’d be better off making herself a ‘catch’ and letting this one go fend for himself at his new job. IMHO, let him get a taste of life without her constant emotional support and see if he thinks his job is so great. Doesn’t mean she has to break up with him… She shouldn’t be putting her life on hold for a guy who isn’t committing.
A year and a half is plenty of time. He made his choice… and it wasn’t her. At least not right now.
nathan 34
Nicole, I have been unemployed for significant stretches twice in my life, and frankly have lived close to the poverty line all of my life, despite my middle class education. Furthermore, I haven’t had adequate health insurance coverage for nearly a decade now, so even though I’m much younger than the guy in question, I’m well aware of the potential financial challenges that could be faced.
“Now if he’s a at a level where this does give him a cushy retirement, why on earth does that make him a bad guy? So what?” I never said he was a “bad guy”; I said he has choices. However, that whole paragraph following the statement I quoted seems to support this me-first mentality that is, frankly, corroding not only our relationships, but much of the world these days. The majority of people work hard. Some people have a lot of material wealth and others do not. But at the end of the day, what makes for a more satisfying, happy life?
Again, as I wrote above, a lot this depends upon his total financial picture, which we really don’t know. Nearly everyone I know lost money in their 401Ks over the past 3 years, but that doesn’t mean every last one of those people can’t retire comfortably on what’s left. I just question this idea that he “doesn’t have any choice,”and believe that the OP has legitimate concerns that should be addressed, even if it’s also true that she should probably give the “new version” of the relationship a chance before giving up.
Melody 35
I get that in early dating, one has to be protective of his/her self interest (not over-investing in a relationship that is not going anywhere, etc.), but at what point does that switch so that people view their significant other as someone truly important?
It seems to be at some point, the person would become important enough to you to just make it work. When does the cost/benefit analysis cease? Can love exist where someone is constantly evaluating whether or not they’re getting enough out? I wouldn’t stay with someone for 18 mos. if they didn’t cross the boundary into the group of friends and family that I deeply care about – and for those folks, I’ll compromise.
A significant other is not someone who is simply expendable and tradable for another one. I get how online dating can make it seem just that easy, but good relationships take work, compromise, and sometimes doing things that aren’t your first choice.
My sister’s fiance travels eight days for work and then is home for eight days – she’d rather have him home every night, but she loves HIM. My mom’s husband isn’t home until 10 three weeknights a week because he visits his kids in a town an hour away . . . not what she’d pick, but she loves HIM. And, whoever I end up dating is going to have to be okay with working around my custody schedule with my daughter. Hopefully, he’ll think that I’M worth that.
Nicole 36
I really have trouble understanding why someone trying to be fiscally responsible and independent is a selfish person who doesn’t love you. B/c if this guy stayed unemployed and this letter was written from the lady “with the deadbeat boyfriend” in two more years, we’d hear the same people chiming in about how he wasn’t pulling his weight, and how she should leave him, or we fast forward and this guy never gets another job and his health fails, I don’t think we’d see people suggesting that the OP should support him and pay his medical bills either. There are not a lot of jobs right now. They are almost no jobs for people above a certain age. If they get a chance, they need to take it, no ifs, ands, or buts. If you live in such a privileged bubble that you don’t see that, good for you, but that is not the reality for a lot of people.
It is amazing the tests that some people want to give to other people to prove that their love is true.
I don’t ever want to meet a man who thinks that if I really, really love him, I’ll risk my financial security and employability. B/c when that relationship is over, the only person left to take care of me is me.
Goldie 37
I thought Evan had made a good enough point here:
“You think he WANTS to commute 90 miles to work? You think he WANTS to stay in a hotel four nights a week? Of course not.”
I have never in my life seen a 66-year-old who would want to live in a hotel full-time. If this man has agreed to these conditions, to me it says that yeah, he needs a job that badly. He’s not being selfish, he’s not just doing it so he can get some strange in another town 90 miles away, he really.does.need.this.job.
@ Melody, I really like your comment, good point!
nathan 38
Nicole, if you’re calling me privileged, that’s an absolute laugh-fest.
“I don’t ever want to meet a man who thinks that if I really, really love him, I’ll risk my financial security and employability. B/c when that relationship is over, the only person left to take care of me is me. ” This is exactly what I’m trying to point to – an underlying sense that whatever relationship you have, it’s gonna fail, and that you better not take any risks to make things work. People in healthy, successful relationships frequently take risks, financial and otherwise, and in fact, often owe their relationships to having done just that. The OP can take the risk of sticking things out for another year or so, and see how things unfold. The boyfriend could decide the job isn’t a good fit, and take the risk of figuring out something else more in tandem with the OP’s life.
Goldie, you may be right. But what do you make of this statement from the OP’s letter: “When the job market started picking up and he began getting lots of calls from recruiters, we agreed he would only look at jobs in the area.” Perhaps they had a misunderstanding about what “in the area” meant, but what I wonder more about is that this guy was getting “lots of calls” from recruiters, which suggests to me he could have more options. How many people at any age are getting a lot of calls from job recruiters these days?
I’ll be honest – I’ve heard a lot women over the years complain about men who focus too much on their careers at the expense of everything else. And yet, here we have a fair number of women bashing the OP both for dating an older man and also for questioning whether his career decision will significantly impact their relationship. You all can disagree with the points I’ve made above, but it never ceases to amaze me how brutal women can be to other women.
helene 39
I was really interested in what Angie said, not just for the OP but for all of us meeting people, dating, weighing things up: ” I would wait to see if something is bad before labeling it as bad. You should really evaluate your position based on the reality and not your prediction”
This interested me because whilst I accept that dating involves a certain level of risk, I do try to prevent myself getting into bad situations by pulling the plug if I don’t think things are going in a good direction and I forsee worse to come.I DON’T wait till things are bad before labelling them as bad – and I consider this “learning from experience” . To allow thinkgs to continue till a situation is bad is something I actively try to avoid, so yes, I DO try to predict, now, where things SEEM to be headed and I get out if I don’t like the prediction. What do others think? Is this sane….or just risk averse behaviour that may be sabotaging my relationships?!
Saint Stephen 40
nathan, there is nothing in the letter that suggest that her BF is trying to maintain an upper middle class lifestyle, rather she says he needed the job to recoup what he’d lost when his 401(k) tanked a few years ago. Why can’t you just go by what the letter says(?).
Seriously, why can’t some of u just give this guy the benefit of doubt and stop projecting your own (selfish) motives onto him.
Ray Said:
You are letting this man suck whatever is left of your youth so that he can have a relationship and his career goals met.
When did 52 becomes one’s youthful age? Maybe when people begin to live up to 200 years. Frankly, some of you on here needs to stop making all the assumptions that this man is some sort of a leech who lured her into a parasitic relationship. She wouldn’t be in this relationship if she wasn’t having her needs met. And in her own words she said; “This is one of the best relationship she’d ever been in her entire life.” You can go ahead to tell who she should and shouldn’t date, how this man is too old for her and how she has tons of options at 52. But when you take out all the men of advanced (middle?) age looking to casually date and those searching for younger women – u’ll see she doesn’t really.
nathan 41
Helene ” I DO try to predict, now, where things SEEM to be headed and I get out if I don’t like the prediction. What do others think? Is this sane….or just risk averse behaviour that may be sabotaging my relationships?!”
I’m glad you pulled this out because it’s really one of the main push-pull items here. It’s easy to see how the OP is considering bailing based on predictions of how things might go once her BF starts his new job. In addition, she also seems to be predicting that the new arrangement will be miserable, when it might end up working out just fine if she gives it a chance. In addition, I have been trying to point out that the boyfriend – and others here – are basing their idea that he “has to take this job” on a prediction that he’ll be financially in trouble if he doesn’t. That he won’t be able to deal with medical bills and other issues in retirement. Which may be true, but may not be. The guy could live to 90 without any significant health issues, he could die tomorrow, or any number of things could happen health-wise. Everyone, including the BF himself, is making guesses about how much money he’ll need during retirement.
Now, some level of self protection is healthy; if a relationship has been just plain going poorly, there’s no need to linger on hoping it will get better. And although some of you seem to think I’m off my rocker about finances, I fully support efforts to cover one’s basic needs over the long run.
In terms of relationships, though, as someone who has bailed too early a few times in the past, based on faulty assumptions, I tend to spend more time these days when predictions about things going bad start to come up. Especially if I generally feel a good connection with someone, but maybe am tangled up about a handful of issues going on.
Ray 42
stephan@40
To answer your question… she’s got 14 years to figure it out… or she can stay with him and have him die when she’s older and has even fewer options.
I think a year and a half is plenty of time for her to sift out his true intentions. He made his choice. It just hasn’t sunken in yet with her. I’d still recommend she keep him around until she finds someone else.
Why not keep him around as the back-up plan? That’s what he’s done to her, after all.
Saint Stephen 43
@Ray (#42)
How come you have such a negative view about her boyfriend even without knowing him personally? All your assumptions about him and the relationship reeks of pessimism. Isn’t it possible that she might die first before him or they can both die at the same time? There is absolutely no certainty in life. And when two people are in love – life and death are the last thoughts running through their minds.
You are not in his mind to figure out if his using her as a back up plan and you don’t have any information or evidence presented to jump to such conclusions. Maybe if you go back and reread the letter with an objective frame of mind, you will begin to see things the way some of us on here do.
That East Asian Man 44
Dear Annette. The quality of the relationship that you and your boyfriend have is measured by how the two of you deal with what life sends your way, whether it’s easy (New Year’s Eve, Hawaii vacation, big bonus) or difficult (colicky baby, loss of a job, diagnosis of Alzheimer’s). It appears from your letter that you believe your boyfriend’s new job location is difficult to deal with. Now is the moment for you to step up and show your true character, the stuff that you’re made of, the greatness within you.
Here’s what you could say to your boyfriend, in a soft voice, with loving eyes: “Every day, you give me new reasons to love you. I am in awe of you, for offering to stay in a hotel room during the week, and to travel to see me on weekends. You are the knight-in-shining-armor that I always wanted. But I love you too much to let you sacrifice yourself for me. I’ve discovered that I don’t need a knight-in-shining-armor; I need you. I am your partner, and will help you with every burden that you have to bear. Let’s take a look at all of our options, and figure out — together — how to make this work for both of us.”
Ray 45
stephen@43
Very true that when people are ‘in love’ the last thing they think of is life and death… apparently and especially women… which is my point. It is stupid behavior on women’s part. Born out of ‘desperation’ from (men usually) that we women have to take whatever they can get… That’s the only way older men can get much younger women usually. Yea… keep that ‘dream’ alive, buddy.
Would you commit to a woman 14 years older than you if you knew that (on average) women live much shorter than men (of course, we know the reverse is true).
No, I sincerely doubt you would.
What evidence do I have he is using her as a backup plan?
- they’ve been dating for a year and a half
- It appears he had other job prospects nearby, but chose not to take them.
- He does not want her to move closer to him…we can’t say why… but usually people ‘in love’ don’t say those things…
If she thinks that driving there on weekends means anything… it doesn’t. It just means he wants to keep his weekend f-buddy. Nothing more than that. If I were her, I’d continue seeing him, but tell him that because of his choice to move to a different location, I’m obliged to consider other offers should one arise. Same as he did with his job. No biggie.
Goldie 46
@ Ray
” – It appears he had other job prospects nearby, but chose not to take them.”
Nowhere in the letter does it say that. Everyone who posts their resume online gets “lots of calls from recruiters”, because recruiters are people too. They want to eat, they work on commission and will call anyone if there’s even a 1% likelihood of them placing this person anywhere. Most of the time, these calls don’t mean anything and lead nowhere. Nowhere in her letter does Annette mention any other job offers, or even job interviews, that this man has had. For all we know, they may not exist.
” – He does not want her to move closer to him…we can’t say why… ”
Why can’t we say why? Says right there in the letter that he doesn’t know if the new job is going to work out yet. Among other things, you don’t have solid job security the day you start. For the first few months, you’re the new guy and things are still pretty shaky. He doesn’t want her to move until he’s sure that he’s going to stay there for a while. He doesn’t want her to move there and then have to move back a couple of months later.
“If she thinks that driving there on weekends means anything… it doesn’t. It just means he wants to keep his weekend f-buddy.”
I do not see this from Annette’s letter at all. Moreover, what does this say about everyone else on this thread who are in long-distance relationships and only see each other on weekends?
Ray 47
Goldie@46
I admire that you want to give him so much benefit of the doubt. If it is true he ‘had no choice’ but take this job, then it is perfectly reasonable for Annette to say she ‘has no choice’ but look for a partner who lives nearby and is willing to do more to demonstrate a commitment.
I’m actually kind of appalled to see so many people here who think his willingness to live in a hotel demonstrates ‘commitment’. Maybe he just wants someone else to change his sheets and clean up. Besides, there is usually laundry on site and restaurants available nearby when you live in a hotel. Doesn’t sound like such a huge hardship to me.
If it is true that Annette has limited options dating-wise, I’d say she can’t afford to put all her eggs in one basket with a guy who leaves NO indication (except a bunch of wishful thinking on ya’lls side) that he wants anything more than fun-time girlfriend on the weekends or whenever it is convenient for him.
Really… someone show us some proof that he is heading towards any kind of commitment to her.
You folks really do set a low bar for women… I’m sorry you are so conditioned to just take whatever you can get. That is the impression I’m getting.
Saint Stephen 48
@Ray
Why do you believe that is only the women who compromises in relationships? and why do you think is only women who date men much older than them?
By your perspective – What would you say about men who date much older women? Are those men also desperate that they had to grab whatever they can get to avoid being single?
Here is a quote from one of the most intelligent commenters on here. Sorry that i had to invoke it from another thread.
Karl R Said:
I set out to find a partner who was around my age. Do you think that I’m bitter just because I met an amazing woman who happened to be 16 years older than me … and decided that I’d be a fool to pass up this relationship just because of the age difference. There are still obvious drawbacks. If we get married (and it seems likely), I’ll be more statistically likely to become a widower than a divorcee. But I’m willing to face that near-inevitability to get a few decades of a wonderful relationship.
I sincerely doubt if you have ever been in love or in a wonderful relationship before. Judging by your post i sense cynicsism in you, and i don’t know any self-respecting and emotionally healthy/matured man who would want to be in a relationship with someone who sounds as “cynical” as you do.
Joe 49
Ray, I gotta say you sound very pessimistic and bitter.
As far as the age difference: at birth, the difference in life expectancy (2007 SSA figures) is about 5 years between males and females. At age 50 it’s 3.7 years. At 65 it’s 2.7 years.
Nicole 50
@Nathan,
At no point in my comments did I call you privileged.
And when I talk about protecting financial security, I don’t mean it from the standpoint of the relationship failing. But you’d be a fool to not include the risk of job loss, illness, or death in the equation.
The risk here is on both sides, b/c if this man wound up financially dependent on this woman, she might not be happy with that arrangement.
She seems upset that he’s trying this out at all, which seems kind of selfish.
Peter 51
14 years age difference in one’s 50′s and 60′s is irrelevant. It is what you want to do that counts. There are 50 year olds pining for retirement and 70 year olds with new projects. Matching personalities is rather more key. Those who disagree might ponder why they are single. In my first marriage my wife was 6 years older at an age which suggested more life experience. I now have a girlfriend (4 years and counting), formerly my landlady, who is 25 years younger, doesn’t speak my language (I speak hers) and 3000 miles and various visa problems distant. Technology helps a lot but mostly having similar shared goals for the foreseeable future and a good fit of personalities seems to be holding us together. I am here looking for views on all the potential issues that might arise but we haven’t crashed through the thin ice, if it is so, yet. So far as ageing and medical care are concerned, in the UK we have longer life spans and longer healthy life spans than in the US. (Get real about your doctors). The average time for men with a long term illness is 3 years prior to death. This is not 3 years of bed rest but 3 years of pill popping. What is a better age to deal with the demands of a dying 79 year old husband? 77 or 65 or 54? Maybe add 5-7 years to that by the time most of us here die. I assume we are mostly non smoking members of the middle classes. The 54 year old might want the man dead sooner rather than later
. Time for a whole new life.
Annette, I would look at why this relationship is so good. If living apart doesn’t change the key factors then keep going. A warm bed at weekends and holidays is better than a permanently empty one or one where neither of you connect with each other expect perhaps through sex, if you are lucky. How many times a week do you have sex anyway?
Ray 52
Stephen@48
Yay! Good for Karl! He’s a rare exception… I’m glad he’s not as shallow as the other gentlemen who seem to prefer youth/beauty over every other quality in a woman.
You wouldn’t date someone 14 years older than you, so please stop using one example to promote your personal preferences (you older, them younger).
I don’t really know what you are talking about… ie the cynical and bitter part. The part where I advise women to consider LOGICALLY their choices and don’t do stupid things that make men’s lives better at THEIR expense?
Simply do a little risk/reward analysis is all I’m saying. Annette is risking some pretty good parts of her life on a guy who isn’t willing to commit to her after a year and a half of dating… and even if he DOES commit, he’s probably gonna die before her.. and she gets to start over again…
Unless he truly is fabulous in every way and is willing to ‘will’ all that money to her that he’s working so hard (away from her) to earn… seems like a pretty poor proposition. Not sure why that comes across as bitter or cynical. Seems pretty smart to me.
When he moved away for his job, he made his choice. Not sure why other people aren’t getting that. Some people want to claim he has no choice. I’m just not buying it. He chose his job. Not her. It really is terribly simple when you think about it.
The guy seems to sure be doing his math. So should she. It is just too bad that she left the impression with him that if he takes this job, she’ll be there waiting for him on the weekends. It would have been better if she could have said, “ok, I see. Well, you are certainly welcome to take this job, just please know that I plan on being open to dating other people for the duration of your time there. We can still get together a weekend a month or so if that works for you… and if I am still single when you are done working there, maybe we can give it another go.
That way, she isn’t ditching him 100%, but she also isn’t ‘saving’ herself for a guy who isn’t committing.
Sayanta 53
Ray
It’s not your arguments but your tone that’s making people call you bitter and cynical.
Ray 54
sayanta@53
I believe it is my arguments that they are calling bitter and cynical, but that’s fine. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
If the tables were turned (the poster was a man, not a woman) I bet there would be very few people recommending he/she work it out. I happen to believe it is only because she’s female that people think it is A-OK his job comes first and she’s supposed to be accomodating. Same goes for the age difference. This is considered ‘normal’. I don’t consider it normal at all.
I think it is sad that she is being coached by some people into twiddling her life away with a man 14 yrs older than her who puts his job first after a year and half of dating. Not everyone has said that… but too many have, IMHO.
Some people consider that bitter and cynical because I’m not telling her to go along with it, and that I think that she CAN do better if she stops believing that because she’s 52, the best she can get is a 66 yr old who is just fine seeing her on weekends or whenever it is convenient for him. Yes, I realize that men of his generation have come to expect that.
That is the problem. Smart, strong women don’t put up with that junk… not for long anyway. People can call that bitter or cynical if they want. Frankly, I think she CAN do better, and it starts by not putting her life on hold for men who won’t commit…. and certainly ones who are bad bets for a long-term relationship (by choice, ie commitment phobes or not by choice, ie much older).
still looking 55
Ray -
You stated, “I don’t really know what you are talking about… ie the cynical and bitter part. The part where I advise women to consider LOGICALLY their choices and don’t do stupid things that make men’s lives better at THEIR expense? ”
The BF needs a job. He found a job that is 90 miles away. They will still be able to continue the relationship even though the distance will hamper the frequency. He is making a logical choice and the choice is not a her expense. Would it make more sense for him to remain unemployed? Should the GF offer to support him? If the relationship fails after he turns down the job is the GF going to continue to support him??
You also stated, “I also disagree that he had no choice. He chose his career first. Period. He had plenty of other choices he could have made… less ‘lucrative’ ones of course. It is only because of the fact he is a man that Evan or anyone else thinks this is ok.”
Would you recommend that a woman declines a scholarship to grad school or a great job promotion if acceptance would require her to move 90 miles away from her boyfriend? Would your advice differ if the boyfriend was 15 years older or younger?
One final question, would your answers differ if you had never known a woman whose boyfriend/husband had not left her for a younger woman?
Evan Marc Katz 56
Ray,
You’ve read so many things wrong into the original post that I’m not sure where to begin. Still Looking did a good job of dissecting it, but I can’t help but to follow up.
You’re inferring that gender has something to do with my advice. It does not. It’s commonsense. The man needs a job. It’s a tough job market. He doesn’t have enough for retirement. He’s making a sound and logical decision – and said he wants to remain exclusive, despite the distance. What else is a better option for him?
You’re inferring that age has something to do with my advice. As if somehow, it’s common practice for me to tell women to “settle” on older men. Wrong. You might want to read this post about how younger women often have better options than older men before you accuse me of such things. In fact, the OP wrote that her boyfriend is a “young” 66, has been seeing her 5 or 6 nights a week, and is the best boyfriend she’s had in a really long time. THAT’s why she’s writing to me with this dilemma.
Because SHE doesn’t want to lose a man she loves. Not because HE is using her and everyone who sympathizes with his job situation is misogynist.
If SHE thought she could do better, she wouldn’t have written to me. My opinion on his situation has nothing to do with me being a dating coach, but being trying to be an impartial arbiter. And, if you’ll note, I didn’t weigh in particularly strongly on what she should do. Why do you make it sound like I’m selling women down the river and putting all these words in my mouth?
Unfortunately, YOU seem to have a very clear bias that suggests that this woman who’s in a happy relationship is doing herself wrong and that everyone’s in on the conspiracy. Sorry, Ray. It’s just not true.
Your inability to sympathize with the man’s point of view says a lot more about you than it does about me and my readers.
Sounds to me like YOU would never date a man 14 years older and YOU would never tolerate a man moving 90 minutes away, which is 100% your prerogative. But a) it’s not a black and white situation – that’s why she asked the question, and b) you can still side with her moving on, but not for ANY of the reasons you cited, which were much more nefarious than the reality.
The reality is that they love each other, he’s in a tough spot, she’s in a tough spot, and she’s got a tough decision to make. Anything else you’re inferring about age or gender is completely off.
Selena 57
Adding a little to what Evan said -
By the time they reach age 50 many people have realized it’s not so easy to find someone with whom they can have a deep, genuine connection. They’ve done plenty of dating. They’ve likely had committed relationships that ended. The fact Annette said this is one of the best relationships she’s ever HAD is the reason so many of us are encouraging her to hang in there and see how it works out.
At 52 it’s possible she could find someone younger. Or someone who wasn’t out of town 4 nights a week. But she might not find someone to whom she has connected this deeply.
The man in question isn’t blowing her off, or trying to downgrade her to weekend girlfriend. He’s just asking her to wait and see how the job goes before discussing moving part of her practice up there. He’s not even talking about finding a home there himself yet, he’s living out of a hotel.
It’s your own prejudices and insecurities that make you see this as unreasonable Ray – not the rest of us.
kenley 58
I’d like to support Nathan’s view that the Op’s boyfriend did in fact have a choice and decided to choose money over the relationship — which isn’t wrong. It’s just a choice.
Lots of people have suggested that the guy didn’t have a choice because he’s old and the economy is so tough, etc. However, I read the post several time, and what become clear to me is that this guy is simply not a typical 66 year old. I completely agree that most 66 year olds would have an incredibly tough time finding a decent job. In fact, 50 year olds have a tough time. My previous boyfriend couldn’t find a job in his field for three years and when he did, he got only half of his salary. So, believe me I know it’s tough for older people. Yet, no where in the post did the OP indicate that her guy had a tough time finding a job. In fact, there were several indications that he really did have choices — lots of recruiters calling (in some fields, that really does mean something), agreeing to only take jobs in the area, etc). Finally, the fact that the guy said that if he doesn’t like that job, he’d leave. That confident attitude does not sound like a guy desperate to hold onto a job and worried that he’ll never find another one. That sounds like the attitude of a man with choices. So, I think this guy may be in a specialized field and he is in demand —- so he doesn’t have to take just any ol’ job that comes along, he can cherry pick the one that suits him. He appears to have chosen a job that suited his wallet, his need for fulfillment, perhaps his ego — but not his relationship.
Indeed, I think the fact that this guy probably had options is why the OP wrote. I think if she really felt he had no choice, she would not have questioned his commitment to her and to the relationship. From my personal experience, when my previous boyfriend was looking for work for over 3 years, I wouldn’t have batted an eye if he had to take a job in another city — or another country for that matter. He was DESPERATE. Ironically, I ended up getting a job in a new city, and guess what? The distance killed the relationship. I applaud all the people who can make long distance work through technology. However, for me a key component of my relationship is companionship — going to plays, movies, dancing, hiking etc. Talking on the phone or facebooking etc are very poor substitutes for face-to-face contact. I essentially felt like I didn’t even have a boyfriend.
So, who’s right — the no-choice or the pro-love contingent- I don’t know. However, there is definitely more than one way to interpret the situation and I hope that diversity of opinions are truly welcomed here. It doesn’t seem to be the case lately — which is very sad to me.
@Nathan: I love the way you can share a different point of view without coming across as mean or condescending or a know it all — it takes a skill and talent to pull that off and you do it well!
@East Asian Man: I love your posts too. They are always so calm and grounded.
Ruby 59
I think the big question here is based on Annette’s statement, “He has consistently said our relationship doesn’t need to change”, and there is some ambiguity in that statement. After a year and a half, Annette’s at a point where she is ready for the relationship to move forward, and now they will continue to be stuck in the dating stage for months. or perhaps years. While I don’t get the sense, as Ray seems to, that he’s a complete commitment-phobe, Annette does need to set some parameters for herself. She says, “When we first talked about it, I told him we could do anything for a year. Five years is just not possible”, and I can’t blame her one bit for feeling that way. I think it’s completely reasonable, and not selfish in the least. She’s giving them both a chance to adjust to this new situation.
Ray 60
Evan,
She loves HIM. That’s clear. However, I see no objective proof that he loves her. There is little in the original post that indicates to me that he had no choice. Not at all.
I advised she date other people while he is at this other location. As it is now… His work is his ‘wife’… Annette is the mistress. Obviously, this is a role lots of people here claim is ok for her to accept… and not only accept but EMBRACE (ie. East Asian Man’s advice). And yes… I do believe that if the tables were turned (Annette was a man), that would not be the advice. I encourage everyone to do the mental math themselves. Take a moment and imagine the reverse… now tell me if you’d give the same advice. I highly doubt it.
I’m objecting to is this ‘filling in the blanks’ and wishful thinking attitude that prevails when giving advice to women (not just you Evan… people in general) instead of coaching her to ask the hard questions… make the man match your commitment… don’t come up with playful fantasies about your life together. Make sure it is grounded in actions and reality. Otherwise, it is nothing more than another segment of he’s “just not that into you”. Does someone here need to tell Annette that? Ok….
Annette, he’s just not that into you. There… Someone had to say it.
Advice like East Asian Man’s… as good as his intentions are… is exactly the kind of advice women should avoid. I don’t believe this man has proven worthy of Annette’s continued commitment based on his choices. It furthers the notion that if a woman ‘gives’ more, a man will love her. Not true. She has ‘given’ for a year and a half. That’s plenty of time for both of them to suss out the direction of the relationship. And he made his choice. It isn’t her. Sorry. It just isn’t.
Note that I didn’t recommend she throw the baby out with the bathwater… just date other people while he is at his other job location. Continue to see him occasionally, but don’t pin her hopes on anything more. He’s already said he’s happy with the way things are… and that is… stringing her along…. IMHO. Maybe if he has some time alone at his new job location, he’ll be forced to make some hard choices himself. Or not. At least she’s not left in limbo-land.
Goldie 61
“Annette, he’s just not that into you. There… Someone had to say it.”
Why did someone have to say it if it doesn’t make any sense? He’s just not into her because his work comes first? Well then someone call my BF and tell him I’m just not into him (and he apparently just not into me), because I know I cannot sacrifice my career for him, and I’m pretty sure he can’t do that for me either. You know why? because we have our own financial obligations, families, aging parents, kids in college etc. that we cannot offload on anyone else. So far, I haven’t met anyone who thinks my work ethic and family responsibilities make me a bad partner. Truth be told, someone who’d think that way is probably way too entitled and self-absorbed for me to be interested in them romantically anyway. “There, someone had to say it.”
Evan Marc Katz 62
I’m with you, Goldie. I think people can be so myopic that it’s infuriating. It’s always easy to see how things affect US, but how about putting yourself in the shoes of the man once in awhile? This is what my entire business is based on – and when people argue with me when I give a man’s perspective, it always says far more about them than it does about the man.
If you can’t empathize or accept a man when he’s being REASONABLE, you have little chance of having a successful relationship during the times he’s not.
Ray 63
Goldie@61
If both of you always put your work first over your relationship, then I feel sorry for both of you. To me, that is the same has having a glorified roommate. Not a life partner.
evan@62
I HAVE put myself in the shoes of the man. I think he’s got an awesome deal at Annette’s expense. He gets to go take whatever job suits him and have weekend girlfriend. Why commit? Not only that, he got to enjoy her for a year and a half while he searched for employment without any talk of commitment. Amazing. This is what you are asking her to accept. Really? yes, apparently so.
And he’s willing to be away from this ‘amazing’ woman for 5 years? Hmm. It’s just not adding up.
This man is NOT being reasonable. He said he likes the relationship just the way it is… that it exists whenever it is convenient for him. No commitment. No investment. His words and actions line up precisely. It is spelled
U-S-E-R
helene 64
I have to say I agree with Ray. This man does have choices – one of his choices being he could propose to her! They could become a proper couple. They could start taking longterm decisions about where they want to live and about financial matters TOGETHER. Exactly how long does it take to know someone is right for you (or not right for you) when you’re 66???!!! He has a lifetime of experience behind him. This is no time for shilly shallying around and saying “nothing has to change”….that’s the behaviour of a 22 year old! “Nothing has to change”…. yet everything is about to change. He’s going to be absent for over 50% of the time, for an indefinate time period. That’s a HUGE change to any relationship dynamic. If he was serious about her, he’d be very worried that this change in dynamic could mean he loses her to another man. If he was serious about her, he’d be keen to lock this thing down, marry the woman and minimise that risk. So either he’s really not that serious about her, or he’s just a bit dim-witted. Or terminally indecisive. Whether the job was a good offer, his only offer or whatever, does not change the fact that in terms of the impact this will have on their relationship, he has chosen to handle it all in a way that does not inspire confidence. Even if his choice in taking the job makes sense, as some assert, his handling of the impact on the relationship makes NO sense, if he is serious about this woman. She has been left doubting his commitment, as have we. If he was really serious, he would have made sure that it was 100% apparent.
Les 65
I’m shocked at some of the comments here.. particularly this Ray person – who I can’t figure out is a man or woman. I mean.. seriously? Having a career makes you a bad partner? Meeting financial obligations and saving for retirement makes you a bad partner? Gosh.. I guess I should break up with my boyfriend who goes to work every day and sometimes even cancels dates to work late, pays for his own apartment and car, and even helps his parents out. He is such a worse partner than the unemployed guy living on food stamps who can’t afford to buy anything nice for himself or me.. but gosh darn it, he’s at home waiting for whenever I need him! And since I can’t have a normal career because I’ll be a bad partner, we might as well just live in a cardboard box now! Our love will keep us warm through the cold northeast winter nights.. because that’s what everyone here is suggesting.
I would expect this kind of advice from my eastern european grandmother who grew up in a village with a family is stronger than everything mentality.. but I’m shocked that american women and men expect a guy to give up a lucrative job opportunity for someone he’s been dating it seems several months when he’s already made it obvious that he’s so committed to her.
Goldie 66
@ Ray
Um, how do I explain this? This man had a life of his own for 64 years before he met Annette. Which to me is a guarantee that there are people in his life whom he feels responsible for, either in terms of supporting them financially, or in terms of making sure they won’t have to support him financially as he gets older. This is what he has to put, as you say, “over his new relationship”. It’s a grown-up thing. You wouldn’t understand. Because, if you seriously expect him to throw his close relatives under the bus just so random people on the Internet would stop accusing him of adultery that he isn’t committing, and agree that he’s a proper life partner… then I assume you’re not an adult and haven’t been responsible for anyone in your life yet. Also, thanks for feeling sorry for me, but please don’t. Or at least keep it to yourself.
Another thing. Note how Annette doesn’t offer to quit her job, or cut down on her hours, in order to move in with him and follow him to his new place of work. Neither does she offer to support him financially so he wouldn’t have to work again. You know why? because she has responsibilities too. Wouldn’t it be great if we all lived in a vacuum with just ourselves and our significant other to think about… sorry, no such luck.
This whole “if you loved me, you’d…” (do some wild and crazy thing to ruin your life) approach just blows my mind. If we imagine that this is our own dad for example, turning down a job that he has desperately needed for the past few years, because he feels he has to prove his love to his new GF… puts things in a different light, doesn’t it?
nathan 67
What I find so interesting about this conversation is how it bucks a lot of what is usually spoken of on this blog. The OP’s boyfriend is taking what could be considered a step back from commitment, and the majority of people agree with his decision. In fact, the repeated theme is that he’s “be responsible” for his “own life,” which is curious given that most of the talk on this blog is about commitment and marriage. Some of Ray’s comments are extreme and judgmental, but I also wonder why some of you all are so willing to defend without reservation the boyfriend’s decision.
The way I see it, Annette’s concerns are not unreasonable, and neither are her boyfriend’s financial concerns. But somehow, instead of acting together as a couple, they seem to be on different tracts. And a lot of folks here are simply siding with fiscal responsibility, which is so damned American (God forbid if someone needs support in their elder years!) that it makes my stomach churn. I fully believe that people can have quality relationships where less time is spent together, where a lot of independence is maintained, even separate residences kept. However, that only works when the couple acts as a couple. And here, it seems like decisions were made, and then attempts to deal with it have come afterwards. Until they come together as a couple and make some decisions that both feel good with, things are going to be tenuous at best.
Goldie 68
I’m not defending him without reservation, as I don’t know him. However, some pretty wild accusations have been made on this thread, based on a very short letter. He’s using her, he’s looking for some action on the side, he wants a weekend f-buddy, he’s just not that into her…. gimme a damn break. The man accepted a job, not robbed a bank. He may or may not have ulterior motives that we do not know about, but the fact remains that, given what we know about his decision, it makes perfect logical sense.
Being self-sufficient is not an American thing. I’ve tried to be that as much as I could for pretty much all my adult life, so have my parents, and we only came to America at ages 29 and 58, respectively. Also, he may be responsible for other people – children, parents – how can we know? We’ve never met him. Personally, if my SO is financially responsible for someone else, I’d be very very alarmed if he were to throw them under the bus for my sake — because, if that’s what he does to his close family, what will he do to me when things get tough? If we want to talk commitment, IMO a man that cannot stay committed to the responsibilities that he had prior to meeting me, isn’t going to stay committed to me either.
Annette’s guy seems responsible and a problem-solver. He seems to have a clear idea about how he wants to take care of their relationship and everything else in his life, and seems to be able to adjust this plan to unexpected circumstances (job turned out to be a 5 yr contract instead of 1 etc). Again, based on the letter, I see nothing wrong with the guy, certainly no foundation for the bum rap he’s been getting on this thread.
Ray 69
Yes, I could be accused of sounding extreme. Maybe that is what it takes to shake some people into looking at this situation objectively.
Another poster said it better than me… “Just when does a man’s partner actually become a priority to him – sounds like not until he’s in a wheelchair and needs someone to wash his hair for him.”
… and yea, I don’t have too many nice things to say for men who cavalierly take from women emotionally so they can move up the career ladder.
The word ’user’ and ‘parasite’ come to mind. And you know what? There is always some convenient reason why commitment or reciprocation isn’t right now… or it is his way… right now… but that’s how it will always be for men like that.
They are very good at finding women who will just keep giving to their sorry butts. And there are people who will keep telling women to keep doing that… why? Cause women are supposed to be ‘naturally’ giving. Women are supposed to get some intrinsic benefit from it and feel fulfilled by nothing more than giving to their man no matter what he does.
Hogwash.
Evan Marc Katz 70
You’re starting to embarrass yourself, Ray. There’s nothing remotely in the OP’s email that suggests that this guy was anything less than amazing to her.
“User”? “Parasite”?
Seriously, my friend, take a Xanax and chill.
If you find nefarious motives in benign situations, you’re setting yourself up for a world of hurt. No man wants to date the woman who thinks the worst of men.
Ray 71
Evan@70
I’ve suggested that Annette and other readers make men show with their actions that they are committed to them. This man is not. We’ll have to agree to disagree about the ‘he has no choice’. There is no such thing as ‘no choice. Just about everything in life is a choice (except death and taxes… ha ha).
I don’t necessarily think he has nefarious motives. I’m sure this man (and others like him) don’t feel they are using women. Especially when our culture makes it so very convenient and even encourages men (based on a few of the posts here) to put their work over everything else in their life. I happen to believe that IS being a ’user’ and an emotional parasite, for sure… especially when there is no attendent commitment or promise of any.
But to each his/her own.
and you mention men not wanting to date a woman who thinks the worst of men. That’s absolutely fine with me. I have no interest in ’dating’ a man who expects something for nothing. I have better things to do with my time.
But while I’m posting.. I do see something else missing from Annette’s original post. She says she’s in no rush to get ‘married’, but she does seem to be looking for a commitment of some kind from this man. He has expressed that he’s ok with their relationship just the way it is. Seems like there is a big disconnect in their relationship goals. That shouldn’t take a year and a half to figure out either.
I’ve got some Gotu Kola and Ginsing in my cabinet… should I recommend you take some to help you develop some ‘clear thinker’ traits? and I’m saying that with a smile on my face… I sense you like having me around as a foil for your arguments. That’s fine.
… and the opposite is true of me… I think the BEST of men. I know they can do better than this guy is doing… and what lots of guys do that ‘passes’ as a relationship.
To think otherwise is more demeaning and condescending to men than calling this one out as a user and parasite. I don’t know the guy. Maybe in other areas of his life he’s wonderful. But in this one area, I think he is a user… He enjoyed her while it was convenient and he still is. Perhaps you could coach Annette on getting relationship expectations cleared up sooner if her eventual desire IS marriage/commitment. Perhaps asking her some pointed questions on what commitment means to her. I agree that the after the fact decision doesn’t work so well. In that situation, you could hardly blame the guy for just hanging out as long as she’ll let him.
As for me… I’m a buyer. Not a renter. And I don’t accept long-term lease agreements, lease to own, or rent to own when it comes to relationships either.
Evan Marc Katz 72
Dear Dana,
The guy spent 5-6 nights a week with her during the course of their relationship. If that doesn’t say committed, caring and effort, I don’t know what does. 5-6 nights a week isn’t “convenient” or “using”, it’s love. Your ability to put her needs over his own remains your blind spot.
You also seem to forget that I’m a coach for women. That’s right. My job is to help women understand and connect with men. And I wouldn’t be giving her the advice I gave her – which, by the way DIDN’T tell her to stay with him – if I didn’t feel that it was in her best interests.
Your advice to her: LEAVE! He’s a USER! A PARASITE! He DOESN’T LOVE YOU! He’ll NEVER COMMIT! is based on some warped idea of how people should cater to you. You know how I know this? Because I’m a good guy. I have a good barometer of right/wrong and fair/unfair. I saw my wife 2-3 times a week (not 5-6) before proposing to her. If I had my way, I would have waited 2-3 years before proposing to her (alas, her age and our desire to have kids sped things up). So for you to suggest that a guy who is dedicated for 5-6 nights a week is somehow a selfish player is FALSE. For you to suggest that he should give up this job at age 66 because of his girlfriend is FALSE. For you to suggest that love means putting her needs first BEFORE there’s a marriage is FALSE. For you to suggest that he should be SURE about marriage while his career’s in transition is FALSE.
In short, your advice is based on how you WANT things to be for YOUR interests to be met.
My advice is based on how things ARE.
YOU can dump a man like the OP’s boyfriend and you will probably find that just about every man on the planet leaves you disappointed. It’s safe solitude, Ray, and it’s predictable from women who’ve been hurt before. You raise the bar so high that no one can jump it. Elegant. It protects you from ever emotionally investing in someone and puts the blame on men continually for not being good enough. Thing is: there are lots of good men out there. Just like the OPs boyfriend. Read the comments from the latest post about Boyfriend vs. Husband if you want to hear more stories of great guys that would probably leave you disappointed.
Annette, on the other hand, has a self-described great relationship with a great guy who doesn’t want to lose the job and his girlfriend. For anyone to suggest that he should pass it up for her, leaving himself jobless and insecure about his retirement is staggeringly unempathetic.
Contrast that to my empathy for her in my answer, and you can see why you do what you do professionally and I do what I do. Enjoy your Ginseng. It may increase your memory, but it’s not doing very much to make you into a woman who actually understands men.
nathan 73
I happen to find a lot of the comments on here fairly unempathetic towards Annette. That’s why I’m asking questions about the boyfriend’s priorities. He might be totally right on in taking the job, but since we don’t have a full picture, a lot of what people are saying is speculation. Especially these ideas that he’ll be destitute, or that he’s going to throw his family’s needs under the bus to be with this woman. We don’t even know if the guy has any family in need of his support.
Goldie, where in any of my comments did I say “self-sufficiency” is a negative thing? Over and over in different ways, I have tried to speak of a need to balance financial issues with demonstrating care and commitment towards someone. The point I was making in #67 is that Americans aren’t terribly kind to elders. We’d rather people continue to prove they’re “worth something” to society by working near to the grave, than offer some support if needed, or to simply offer the respect and willingness to listen that many other societies naturally give to their elders. Frankly, if her boyfriend chose to earn less and live with less at 66 – after what probably has been a long and prosperous career – I would think people would be supportive.