What You Can Do When Things Go Wrong In Love

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I know you don’t read this blog to hear about me or my family.

You read this blog to learn something about men. Something about the human condition. Something that explains why bad things happen to good people.

But to me, any story can be extrapolated to something universal. It doesn’t matter if it’s an anecdote about me, my wife, or my private coaching clients – it all has to do with YOU.

So ask yourself what you would do, say, or think after getting suddenly axed by the same guy who wanted to commit to you only 10 days earlier?

If you’re like ANYBODY, you’d be pretty darned surprised and disappointed.

Given that 99% of men are definitely NOT your future husband, getting upset when this proves to be true is like getting upset that you didn’t win the Powerball.

But if you’re me, a professional dating coach who sees this every day, you’re not at all surprised or disappointed by what happened.

Before you accuse me of being callous, allow me to explain:

How many times in your life have you been in love? Two? Three? Four?

How many of those relationships lasted? Um, zero. (Widows are excused from this exercise.)

What percent of men are cute, successful, smart, kind, funny, compatible and emotionally available for a relationship? (I’ll let you answer yourself.)

What percent of those amazing men also think YOU’RE cute, smart, kind, funny, compatible and emotionally available for a relationship? (Not as many as you’d like.)

When you look at all of these things together, without any emotion, you’ll see exactly what I see: the fact that ANY relationship gets off the ground is remarkable.

And, to the naked eye, FAILURE is the default setting in dating.

You heard me. Failure.

Now, to be clear: I’ve failed a LOT more than you have.

I’ve gone on over 300 dates and committed to probably fifteen “girlfriends” before getting married. Which is why I’m not too fazed by failure.

You shouldn’t be, either.

Given that 99% of men are definitely NOT your future husband, getting upset when this proves to be true is like getting upset that you didn’t win the Powerball. Yeah, it’s unfortunate, but it’s also quite predictable.

Which is why I want you to write this down on a post-it right this very second:

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83 Comments »Filed Under Letting Go

83 Responses to “What You Can Do When Things Go Wrong In Love”

Mia 1

This is what I love about Evan — he introduced me to something I never considered, as obvious as it seems: not wallowing in rejection and pressing on. However, I have not gotten anywhere since I started following his advice to be more proactive about dating 1 1/2 years ago ( with a 6 month break when i was planning a move). I’ve been out with 20 guys or so in that time, not counting the five or so I had impromptu dates with while traveling, not counting the two men who lived several hours away that I was exchanging emails with and then they vanished, not counting several one night hookups.

This feels like an overload of men to me, and the rejection is getting very hard to take as a somewhat sensitive person, especially since I had a lot of rejection in dating before this time period as well. I mean, I could do this for one more year, maybe 2, but at what point is it just too much for too little return? Not one man asked me to be exclusive except a guy old enough to be my dad during this period. And all around me my 20something girlfriends are getting bfs and husbands while having put very minimal effort into dating ( nor are they above average looking).

So how do you follow this advice while taking care of your emotional health?
Jane 2

The thing is, not all men who disappear do so early on. We’ve all heard the stories about the guy who dated a woman for many months, was exclusive with her by his own choice, told her he was in love with her, met her family, took her away for weekends, etc. etc…. all the things You tell us to look for in a guy before we think of him as our boyfriend. And even these guys disappear. In those cases it isn’t always so easy, or even wise to just go back online the next morning and find someone else. Sometimes it’s good to take some time off and absorb what happened. I believe that some guys just love the chase, the courting, the wining and dining, the whole illusion that they have created this great relationship, but when they get that relationship and the woman is emotionally vested, it no longer holds any appeal for them, so they check out and move on. If a woman gets heartbroken in the process, oh well, c’est la vie. Kinda like that movie, In The Company of Men, wooing a woman is just for sport. For any woman who has encountered one of these guys, I am completely sympathetic and wouldn’t blame you if you bowed out of dating for a few weeks or months at least, to gather your wits if nothing else. Most women are not masochists! It’s like the old analogy, if you touch the stove and burn your fingers, you’ll be very careful before touching it again. That is a basic survival instinct. We also have instincts to survive emotionally. This doesn’t mean you quit dating altogether and hate men, not at all. I’m just saying that when you get burned, you need to re-group before getting out there again.
justme 3

Evan! 300 first dates and comitted to 15 “girlfriends” makes me feel a lot less alone! Thank you for that!
Spiral 4

Evan, you rock. Thank you for this post. I wish I had read it a few hours earlier as I’ve spent the first half of this day fretting over a guy who hasn’t called, but better late than never! Now that I am armed with your insight, I am lifting my chin and moving forward.
Karl R 5

This advice is equally applicable to men:
Failure is the normal outcome.
99% of women are definitely not our future wives.
Don’t get too excited too soon.
When a woman disappears or dumps you, it wasn’t personal.
She wasn’t your future wife.
It’s nobody’s fault.
It doesn’t necessarily mean you did anything wrong.
There’s no point in getting pissed at her.
It’s over. Move along.
There will be another opportunity with a different woman.
Don’t get frustrated.
Don’t quit.

I got through the dating process without all the frustration and heartache that so many men and women on this blog face, despite facing nearly-identical circumstances. I didn’t get hurt because I had very different expectations and attitudes.
deannie 6

I have encountered a man like what Jane describes. It’s been my experience that it was helpful to take some time to absorb the experience in order to carry on. Thanks for the practical words Evan
Liz 7

So true! But how does one juggle the fact someone is a nice guy, great match, but its just not going to work because he is devastated from a prior relationship? I have ran into two such men in the last six months. Its normally at the 3 month mark you realize this. Part of you, knowing that 99.99% of men won’t work, thinks its childish to tell him you can’t be friends, because it isn’t his fault, yet another part of you wants to spend your time sifting through the 299 more dates it might take. Oh what to do with these hurt men.
Julia 8

I think this was one of your more depressing columns. Yes you have to work hard, except some people don’t have to work hard at all, it just happens. So there are two kinds of people, those who are lucky and those who need to work to make their luck. I just wish I wasn’t in the latter.
Paula 9

Great advise, I agree. Love yourself first and keep on going, the reward is worth it!
susan 10

300 dates sure shows some tenacity. yikes!
And to be fair I think it often far easier for MEN to do this than women, simply because of that emotional makeup.
Whilst I agree that by and large men are not out there to hurt women (ie they are in the moment, not deliberately wanting to lead someone on) I also think that the average dating man has to have some kind of idea of how women think – surely?
It is all too easy to excuse the disappear-er and bravely move to the next date.
I know that my biggest challenge is learned to disconnect from the date – I think I probably do invest too early. On the other hand, surely if a man REALLY likes you – that is, it’s not just about the moment – is that really going to matter?
B. 11

@Liz #7:

You’re not alone — this has happened to me recently as well! As nice a guy as he is, it’s usually not a good idea to wait around for him. I don’t think it’s childish at all to tell someone in this situation that you can’t be friends. I think trying to maintain a friendship would only hurt you, as there’s likely a part of you hoping that he’ll want to be with you once he’s processed through his devastation (I’m speaking in general terms, not specifically about you). As difficult as it may be, you just need to walk way from these hurt men.
K 12

@Mia #1

I’m pretty much in your same boat in the number of dates I go on and how frustrating I find the process to be. Here are some things that have helped me:

-Are they all rejections of you? I think for me when I think about it most of the time we mutually don’t like each other. A small % are guys who reject me and a small % are guys I reject. Reminding myself that I have definitely disappointed a few guys as well over the last few years, makes me feel less like the victim. I’m assuming all 20 guys didn’t vanish on you. If so then I’m sorry that would be rough.

-As far as how easy others have it, when I really think about it I wouldn’t pick the guys my friends pick. Some of them are always quick to find new bfs because they just want to be with someone. Others seem to have it easy, but then I see them go through breakups and realize that they just stay in relationships that I would have ran from on date 3.

Dating is hard, but sometimes I make it harder in my head.
Liz 13

After getting the I can’t give you 100% right now, I am heading to a counselor to deal with my past relationship, but can we be friends for now speech, I at first agreed. Then no contact for a week, followed by a strange email asking for help from him on something trivial, to which I responded: I really do like you, had fun, but please call me when everything works itself out for you. It just seems strange that we are to write these people off to me for some arbitrary no contact rule of a month or two. But if the alternative is being an emotional buffer, perhaps my instincts are right, keep it moving.
miskwa 14

Good post Evan, my response here is also related to the previous “why are you not yet married” entry. To begin: I am a fifty something, highly educated, left wing, professor, organic gardener, environmental activist, and ultramarathon runner. I agree, one has to understand that things do not always work. That’s normal. My experience w/dating in the past was much different than yours, Evan. Back East, I didn’t date many men but never had a problem finding someone compatable so long as I did the work involved. I had a wonderful partner of 12 years in a great relationship that I had to leave because I had to take a job out West. He did not wish to go, wanting to stay near family. As he was much older than I and his siblings had health issues, it was understandable. Plus, he suffers from altitude sickness and I live at 10,000′. It was like the rules out here changed dramatically. Since coming West, two men in my life have disappeared after more than a years involvement; one man that I worked with pursued me for two years before I found out that he was involved with someone else; I still have to deal with him during the school year and it hurts like hell. When I cut contact quickly with one man that gave off tons of red flags, I was stalked. Some men acted as though they wanted a real relationship but really wanted casual. It seems as though there is a culture of self absorption coupled with a complete lack of taking responsibility for ones actions, not caring about how ones actions affects another. Back East, although I met a bad apple on occasion, I never, ever, had to deal with this sort of behavior. You were accountable, if not, people talked, word got around, you no longer got dates. I have done the same hard work of “getting out there” here but men in this region that are educated, emotionally and physically healthy, and willing to spend at least some time in my small mountain town are seemingly impossible to find. Let me add that to quit my job now and move means to bail on my mortgage, lose my retirement (collateral for the home loan), and not be able to support my remaining parent, none of which are ethical options although it would make sense from a relationship standpoint. It is as though by investing in this community, trying to be positive about dating and relationships here, I am now trapped and feel punished for something I did not do. I have been told by another dating coach that due to my geographic and financial realities, I am probably SOL until I can get out. It is incredibly hard to not take this personally, to feel negative, very sad, to begin to doubt yourself. Apart from my very emotionally distant parent, there is no family or other support network. I deal with this solo. I do intend to retire at age 60, regardless of finances, in order to get out. 8 more years is a long time to be totally alone. I do look on line, but again my values and those of most of the men in this region do not jibe. I keep an air of complete detachment towards on line non-relationships. It is easy because most of these men are very obviously wrong for me and I for them. As starved both intellectually and emotionally as I often feel, I do walk away because keeping someone around for companionship when you know it is not/will not work is just plain cruel to that person. Nathan, in a previous post was right; sometimes one is just in the wrong place to find love. I understand that this is not my fault, that I am not an awful, ugly person, that it’s no ones fault; it just is. However, yep, it still hurts.
Julia (from the past few blog posts) 15

I have a name twin #8!
I couldn’t figure out how to separate us so forgive my lack of creativity.

I would disagree about this being sad. It was inspiring! I realize that in the past 6 months I’ve quit dating. Now, I’ve been on an online dating site in that time (didn’t take it seriously and deactivated it) and I’ve met guys I was attracted to.

But no dates.

Between me not liking them or just no one asking me out, it’s been quiet for the past 6 months.

Yet I realize that while I am doing the best I can in being positive, looking great, and being a friendly, welcoming person…. I am not TRYING to find love. I’m just expecting a guy to waltz up to me and take it from there.

Sometimes I get frustrated from the lack of dates but then I realize that I’m not trying to get them either. As Evan said if you spend 30 minutes a day investing in love, you will find it within a year. I’m summing that up but it holds true.

You need to invest in love, in whatever way that means to you. And even when you do his techniques, you go through the motions, and it doesn’t work? You keep going. The return is when you DO find that great guy or gal, you realize that all the other dates led you to accepting and loving the right man or woman for you.
Tom 16

@ Liz #7 and B. #11; nice guys who say at ‘the three month mark’ that they’re too hurt from a previous relationship to continue sound suspiciously like they’re using poor excuses to break it off. I’m ashamed to say that I’ve used that line a few times (at the same point) when I couldn’t think of anything else to say so as not to hurt a girl’s feelings. Admittedly it’s a bit cowardly.

As regards people ‘disappearing’ it seems to be how casual break-ups are done these days rather than being gender specific: i.e. girls usually dump me by just not replying to my messages. I know these are generally decent women but they find it easier to do that (rather than saying in a couched language; ’I don’t like you enough’).

Although dealing with constant rejection is tough; remaining positive and perseverance are crucial to success. Every night I go to a bar I might get rejected by 5, 10, 15 women a night, however, if I get upset or annoyed with them knocking me back I’ve no chance. I understand that these women might be having a bad day, or dealing with a break-up / family / work situation etc. and it’s not necessarily something about me.
Liz 17

I wouldn’t pretend to know “why” I try not to concern myself with that too much. No doubt that they are breaking it off, but I do believe that genuinely great guys can come off a long term relationship and throw themselves into internet dating when they are just not ready for it (out of being lonely, a defense mechanism of subduing the pain, and/or because they don’t have the social network a women have).

They are like Evan says, showing all the signs we look for, that get us excited, because they aren’t prolific daters, and they desperately want love and to be loved in a relationship. Then when emotions start running deep, sex is on the horizon with the “talk” coming sooner or later about exclusivity, rather than take the leap fear creeps in (not literally– they afford you a phone call, try to keep in touch, ect). I don’t know what do with these men. Because we don’t make it to being intimate, I don’t feel used, taken advantage of, or hurt. Little let down, yes. But life is funny, so it pains me to just send these men on their way, not take their text, phone calls or emails for some mandatory time.
Michelle 18

I’m 25, Af Am, NYC resident, smart, fit, attractive, funny, and broken down by the harsh dating reality in this city and in general.
When I read these boards and see how tough other people are having it out there I don’t know whether to feel less alone about struggling the same way or utterly hopeless about the reality of the 99% failure rate in dating. It’s easy to tell your self to perk up and move on, but realistically dealing with the raw pain isn’t something you can push yourself out of simply with effort. You have to sit with it, day in and day out.
If anything, my heartache has made me more committed to my Buddhist practices which aim at absorbing, embracing, and healthily processing the suffering inherent in life. It’s no quick fix or band aid, but it has helped change the way I think about the pain I constantly live with because of my failures and disappointments in love.
K #12 said something valuable about looking at other people’s apparent ease and success at love and realizing that just because others find themselves coming across relationships initially without much work, doesn’t mean they necessarily find themselves in great and lasting relationships just as easily. All relationships become hard work at some point.
To wrap this up, I know I still have some time to find something good, but ultimately accept that the guy I find who is both a quality person and someone who actually wants me, isn’t likely to be physically attractive or someone I’d be to proud to show to others as my partner. Trust me I know what matters most and am far from shallow, but I’m having a hard time giving up hope for that guy Evan constantly reminds us is too hard to pin down. Cute, successful, fun, and in to you as much as you are him.
B. 19

I think the one case where it would be okay to keep in touch with a hurt man is if – and only if – you would be okay having a strictly platonic relationship with him, and have absolutely no hope or expectation that it could blossom into something more. If you even have a fraction of hope, I think you’d be doing yourself a great disservice to continue emailing/texting/etc.

They’re not bad men, but the point is making sure you’re doing what is best for you…not for them!
SJZ 20

Glad to hear other people are having the same problems with online dating that I have had. Most of the men I have gone out with wanted sex on about the third (first, second)date. When I tell them I want sex in a committed monogamous relationship they are suddenly not interested anymore. Really? I have been online dating on and off for the last six years. Is it me or the people on the site? It is hard not to take it personally. Just keep leading an interesting life and don’t settle for anything less then what you want out of life.
Laura S. 21

I live in an isolated TinyTown, disappearing isn’t an option for anyone. Remaining friends is mandatory. I have a wide circle of friends I casually date and 1 special man. He loves me and I love him, and no commitment yet. None of them are from the internet or the bar.

Men who are infatuated and want to furiously pursue are slowed down and put in line. I’m not putting out to anybody. I am protecting my heart. When men care about my heart, I know. My special man cares about my heart.

I haven’t gone past first meet with internet men. It feels too put-on and creepy to me. The men don’t behave the same way the guys I meet in person do, and their expectations are different.
Evan Marc Katz 22

Sounds like there’s a LOT of misunderstanding about how to effectively date online. All this talk and fear of men who are interested in sex. Remember, men look for sex and find love. Don’t expect them to fall in love with your character on Date 1. Your job is to make it fun for him to pursue sex for a month or so, until he realizes he wants to be in an exclusive relationship with you. It’s not your job to tell him, “I don’t have sex until we’re in a relationship” on Date 1. That’s the fear speaking, and it’s certainly no man’s idea of a fun first date. So there’s nothing wrong with holding out for commitment before intercourse, but if you tell men, point blank, things like “my special man cares about my heart,” and “online daters are creepy,” you can’t be too surprised that men aren’t feeling a connection.
SJZ 23

I don’t say anything about wanting sex in a monogamous relationship on any of the initial dates. It just seems like the men I have dated assumed that it was going to happen on the first, second, or third date without any discussion at all. I suppose there is a better way of saying what I want. It is just sad that it is expected so soon in the dating venue.
Mia 24

Sjz, who are you going out with? No guy has ever pushed me for sex on dates 1-3- they might ask to come up, but nothing pushy.

There are several factors at play that make dating more difficult for women than men. Let’s say that men are looking for sex – well, most single women are going to have sex with 2-3 new guys a year because we have sexual needs too, and waiting for a bf every time would mean going years without it. HOWEVER, most men are not inclined to want to seek a relationship with 2-3 women a year– it might be 3 in their entire adulthood. So men automatically have a greater market for what they want.

Second, like many women, if I don’t like a guy I’m not sleeping with him, going on more than 3 dates with him, not mentioning the future or making big promises, not smiling, flirting, etc. I’m rarely pursued by men I don’t like bc they get the strong friend vibe from me right away if I don’t like them – nobody is being led on. The opposite happens all the time to girls.

Yes , Ive rejected a number of men, but hardly any when there was an emotional investment. I’m rejecting guys I don’t know who hassle me at bars or in the street, and the reason is often that they make me extremely uncomfortable with overt sexual neediness, the types that tell me I’m hot and make no effort to see me as a human being. If a man considers THAT rejection that hurts , I’m shocked – it doesn’t count in my mind.

Meanwhile, I’M dealing with guys who wait til the 9 th date to mention they don’t want anything serious, who wait til the sixth date to say they don’t believe in sex before marriage but then ask for a bj, who after eight dates go on vacation for 2 weeks without calling or mentioning it beforehand, and kind of fade out.

Men who think cute younger girls have it easy in dating should consider this : think of the hottest girl you’ve seen out at a bar. Let’s even say she’s a nice girl. Chances are, even if you could get her, you’d enjoy seeing her and sleeping with her for 1-2 months, rather than wanting to commit to her forever. You get my drift?
SalsaQ 25

@Evan 22

Not all men look for sex and find love. I know you coach to what is effective with _most_ men, so I will keep that in mind.

You talk about men not feeling a connection early on because of what we say. So are they looking for sex or a connection and love? Or is it not as black and white as _any_ man “looking for sex and finding love” ? I think for most men it is both.
Kathleen 26

Thanks Evan !!I found the article encouraging and realistic. The timing is great since I was disappointed and bummed out recently but Im learning with each dating experience. I sure hope the guy is looking for sex otherwise Im not interested.LOL!! I get it about making it fun in the meantime…
Michelle 27

Sometimes you know exactly what to say at the exact right time. The “what’s wrong with me?”‘s have been crossing my mind and I read this and know “nothing”. So thank you once again for setting me straight.
Christine 28

Thanks Evan, I really needed that today. I’ve been feeling really down lately after just having a birthday and turning 33–I guess I had a mid-life crisis. There are many times I doubt that I can find love at this stage of my life. However, I’m just going to keep dusting myself off and trying again! The only other alternative is to resign ourselves to lives of quiet desperation (to paraphrase Thoreau) and that is simply too depressing to contemplate. I do know some women (like my own sister) who found love late in life (was 33 when she met my brother-in-law) and I’m going to keep on trying until I join them.
Laura S. 29

I don’t say anything about sex and I don’t operate in any fears. I have, however, had two internet men ask me if I shaved my bush and stated their preference during the intitial meeting. Both times I picked up my sandwich and walked out.

I date to have fun, enjoy the companionship of my friends and get to know them better. I have no idea what the internet thing is, but they haven’t been enjoyable.
Mia 30

Christine — how is 33 old?!? Are you joking? Nothing 34 and under strikes me as too old as long as the woman is still attractive, but maybe I’m missing something.
David T 31

@Christine28 33 is ‘late in life”? Now *I* am depressed.

There is another alternative to being in a couple and ‘living quiet desperation going to our graves with our songs still in us.’ I live my song both within me and without.

A partner’s song to hear and celebrate; someone to hear mine; creating a new song between us would make life sweeter. Still, mine is lovely on its own and I hold onto that.

@Laura29 You were still hungry after that?
Gina 32

Evan,

This post came right on time! Just been dumped by my boyfriend of 5 months–I sabatoged the relationship due to my own insecurities, but am seeing a therapist now–jumped back online and met three men who are interested in getting to know me better! I had myself a good cry over losing my ex, but now U am ready to learn from my mistakes and move forward. Thanks Evan, you are the best!!!
Christine 33

Sorry, didn’t mean to depress anyone Mia and David! I guess online dating has screwed up my head and I need to spend some time straightening it out again. I never used to think I was *old*. I only started feeling that way when I kept seeing man after man on these sites my age who prefer women in their 20s. I’m not trying to chase men half my age or anything (which would be illegal since he’d only be about 15, haha). I just want a peer who has the same points of reference and life experiences as I have. I didn’t think wanting a man around my age was so unreasonable, but many of my peers I’m interested in want women in their 20s. So then I tried to follow Evan’s advice to want the men who want me. I couldn’t bring myself to like the men in their ’50s and ’60s, but instead tried focusing more on the men in their late 30s to early 40s (but wouldn’t you know, those men weren’t interested either). I’m fighting through the negativity though. Right now I’m trying to remain open to the possibility of love, but also working on becoming happier within my own skin first and getting to a healthier mental state. Online dating did a number on my self esteem and I’m trying to build it up again. On a rational level, I realize I can’t hinge my whole self esteem on what a bunch of strangers think of me when they don’t know me. I just need to learn to connect my head with my heart, and feel deep down in my bones that I’m worthy of love with a great person, even after all these other rejections. I’ve become very frustrated and discouraged with dating, but I also ultimately see no alternative than to persist. I went through the same thing with job searches in the past, and would still be unemployed if I had given up every time I felt like it. However, even when that felt hopeless, I eventually got the job I wanted (albeit later than I had hoped for). So I’m thinking my search for love will go the same way–but it has a much bigger payoff if I succeed. Hope springs eternal!
Clare 34

I think there’s a third option, aside from aggressively going out and pursuing new date prospects, and sinking back into your shell in a pile of despair. And for me, this third option has always been the most effective, and the most comfortable.

It’s about being out in the world, living your life, in a state of receptiveness, in a state of faith. It’s about cultivating trust, trust in love, trust in the process, trust in yourself, trust in others. It’s about being open and warm, and holding a positive space in your life that your future partner will fill.

I don’t know if this makes sense to anyone; it’s not about being passive, not at all. Cultivating an openness and receptiveness to love is actually an active state of mind, and we don’t realise how much fear we’re holding onto or how much we close ourselves off, until we embrace it.

The way I see it, for us women, it’s not about chasing or being aggressive or too proactive (as Evan says), it’s about cultivating a warmth and openness to men, and letting go of how you’ve been treated before.
Goldie 35

It has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Just got back together with the man who’d broken up with me last week. Turns out, what he really needed to do was sit down and talk about what bothered him. Instead he said he wanted to break up. Based on my previous experience, when a guy broke up and never wanted to hear from me again, I was prepared to go completely no-contact, but he wanted to talk about it all of a sudden and it all got better from there Point is, at our age and with our pasts, nobody is a model of emotional stability and wisdom. We say things we don’t mean, do things we don’t say, and have no idea why we are saying and doing all those things. This needs to be accounted for. We’ve got to take a good look at the person and see what they are really trying to tell us. Mean jerks who use us and dump us are pretty rare — it just looks like they’re everywhere, because the few of them manage to get around a hell of a lot and hurt dozens of women in a short period of time. In my 2.5 years of dating, I only ran into one user. All the rest were decent people.

@ #34 Clare — exactly! In case the breakup had gone through, my plan was to take a lot of time for myself, (six months or so), catch up with old friends, travel, have fun, do some soul-searching and figure out what I want out of life, and out of dating in particular. I absolutely did not plan on dating again anytime soon. I have plenty of old friends who are always up for casual dating and anything else would’ve been too soon for me.
Liz 36

Yes…I don’t understand the 9-12 date thing. If I am not interested in someone, it usually is something I know by the 2nd date. Hell, sometimes an hour into the first date, when you tell me about being: in the military, thats why you didn’t complete college, but your master diving experience wouldn’t travel over to to the states, so in the Bahamas you got certified, then you became a Paramedic, because you have a huge heart, and then you started building networks systems for huge law firms (but your business site for you internet company isn’t complete)…blah blah blah, can we start the worse date thing again? This was on 5 minutes of the crazytown I sat through.
amy 37

Christine, #33 -
A friend of mine had an interesting theory about dating in your 30s. He said most men who wanted to get married early (25-32) did, and the ones in their early 30s, 32-38, still probably had lots of stuff to work out. His theory was that women in their early 30s all wanted to date guys in that age range and kept getting burned by them, and ended up bitter by 37. So the trick, he explained, was for someone like you to either go out with the younger-ready guys or the older 38-42 year old set, who would be so pleased to have a YOUNG 33 year old.
Christine, you are young. Your body is young!!
Trust me. I got married after 40. You are very young and should keep trying!
K 38

@Amy 37, very interesting point. I’m around Christine’s age as well and I have to say some of what you say rings true for me. Lately all the men who have been interested in me have been around 30 or otherwise 40. Even though I prefer mid-30s I rarely meet them or ones who want to date me. No biggie for me because I like to go where I’m popular:).
Fusee 39

@ Claire #34: Exactly! Thank you for your interesting contribution!

For me, plan A is a solid, balanced, and happy marriage. Plan B is a solid, balanced, and happy single life. Plan C to Z everything else including three-month thingies going nowhere and three-year relationships staying in the status quo. I’m not including internet dating with people who would consider me for the role of a glorified free prostitute because I’m simply not giving men a chance to ever toy with such an idea, consciously or not.

Since plan A involves someone else’s will, and depends on this elusive magical succession of events of meeting someone, clicking, and discovering compatibility, which is for a large part out of my control, my best bet at happiness is creating the best plan B I can. Totally up to me. With the added bonus that it does not exclude the potential to shift to plan A if I keep myself receptive, as Clare is saying at #34, and end up meeting someone who qulifies enough for me to take a temporary risk of spending some time in plan C. That’s what I’m doing, and it’s working beautifully for me. I let time and circumstances do their magic, and after 3.5 years of happy single life full of friends, travels, and volunteering (and no dating), I met my boyfriend. I’m allowing myself to spend 12-18 months in plan C to see if this will become plan A. Not more though, because plan B is better than plan C for me. That’s where I do not go with Evan’s advice to give the man three years to make a decision. He’s got around 12 months : )

A comment to Mia #1: Evan’s advice is spot on for his target audience which is the “smart, strong, and successful woman”. It’s a catchy title that will make most women want to identify with it, but we are not all “smart, strong, and successful women”. Those women are picky and limit their dating pool unreasonnably. On the other side of the spectrum, I (and I suspect you too) am “reasonnable, grounded, and content in life”, therefore while most of Evan’s advice is still spot on for me, some parts of it does not apply at all. I was too flexible: I needed to be more discriminative. I was too fun and easy-going: I needed to give men more of a homework to prove themselves to me. I was choosing men who were not compatible to my values and long-term goals: I needed to evaluate sooner who was worth my energy. We are all different and one advice-size does not fit all, even if the general wisdom still applies. Because it does. Evan’s approach is incredibly wise.

So Mia, you might need to adjust your approach if your current method does not bring you what you need and burns you out instead. I agree with the recommendation of not letting failures make you lick your wounds at home for years, but running on the dating hamster-wheel like crazy is an unreasonnable investment of our limited energies. Finding the One is not just a numbers’ game. It’s also a matter of circumstances aligning somehwat magically, of people clicking energically in an environment that doet not involve a screen and tick boxes, of people meeting and joyfully starting exploring if making a team is an option. For people who can afford being out there a couple of times a week, it’s best to focus on meeting people in real life. Keep online dating and its superficial tick boxes as an extra and/or for difficult situations such as solo parenting of young children, disability, small town, late thirties with a desire for biological kids, etc.

And finally @ Christine #28: I’m your age and found love last year after years of frustration and questioning. Still figuring out if this is the real deal, but in any case, for the first time I am at peace no matter what happens because I am a solid, balanced, and happy single, and this is a good life to go back to. There is not such a thing as “too old” at 33! And there is not such as thing as “too old” for a solid and happy relationship at any age anyway. It’s just easier at 33 than at 39, so use your time wisely. Be happy single in the meantime!
Laura S. 40

I don’t take men and dating seriously until they are ready to get serious. Sometimes they think they are, but men are rarely fully in touch with their inner selves.

A lot of men like to test to see how much they can get away with. So do women. We all have our ideal relationship: Free and Easy, right? I call it immaturity but it seems to be popular these days.

Boundaries. I’m not going to give up my lunch because some guy’s a jerk. At a first meet he’s not even worth the effort to say the Magic Words (with a smile):

“It’s okay to be an asshole, but you’re not allowed to be an asshole to me.”

I agree with #34 Clare–It’s about getting out there and enjoying life and enjoying people. Sometimes we have to make ourselves do it.

I was expecting a proposal or at least a very good proposition from my special man. Instead he broke up with me again, with the hours long good-bye kiss, kissing away my tears, his refusal to say why, but keeping our permanent friendship. His progressive illness is obvious now and he is dying. We are only now talking openly about it.

This is tough, but I keep dating and enjoying the company of other gentlemen, some who know and some who don’t. One who doesn’t said on our 2nd date, “Wow, I can’t believe you’re not remarried already!” I’m sure the look on my face let him know he said something wrong.
SS 41

@Amy 37… I wholeheartedly agree with this theory. Probably because it’s the story of my life. I missed out on some men in their mid-late 20s who were the ones who really did want to get married, and it didn’t surprise me when I heard just 2-3 years later that they were now married. Meanwhile, when I was about 30-32, the men in that 30-36 age range (give or take a year or two) didn’t seem the slightest bit interested in being married!

But then the group of men from 37-42? There was a bigger pool than I thought of never-married, serious men who were really looking for someone. So at age 31, I ended up with a 37-year-old guy… which to me, isn’t a terribly large age difference. He said I was actually one of the youngest women he’d dated, as he was usually dating closer to his age or slightly older. Many of them didn’t want kids (because they had some already) and he wanted someone who wanted to have kids (or have more kids). So a 30-35-year-old woman who wanted to marry and have kids would have been perfect for him.

I suppose I could have said that six years was too much of an age gap or that a 37-year-old guy was “old” and that I wanted someone who was no older than 33, but Mr. 37 turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me… and we’re still in the same generational cohort and were born in the same decade, so I don’t feel like I’m with some really really OLD guy. LOL

Anyway, I think 33 is a good age still… definitely consider the late 30-early 40 something guys who want marriage (and children, if you want children). You’ll definitely do well among that group.
Karmic Equation 42

I have a simple rule…Don’t tell a guy you love him until he says it first. You can feel the love, act on the love WITHOUT BEING CLINGY…but don’t ever say it until he says it first. For two reasons:
1) when you say it first, you’ll never know if he said it because he felt that way or only said it because he felt obliged by politeness/awkwardness/etc to say it
2) When he says “I love you” first, it means it’s been on his mind for a while and he couldn’t hold it in!

So how does one extrapolate this rule and apply it to handle men who may disappear? Simple…Don’t be more emotionally vested in the man/relationship than the man at any stage of the relationship. Leave him alone and LET HIM MISS YOU. Text him only when he texts you. Assume that when he’s not with you he’s NOT thinking about a future with you…so DON’T spend a lot of time thinking about a future with him.

There was a one-liner that I always repeat to myself when I’m so intoxicated by a man that all I want is to stay in constant contact with him…”How can I miss you if you don’t go away?”

I think Evan said it once, men figure out their feelings for you when you’re not around. If you’re always around, they don’t have any opportunity to notice they miss you and so they don’t expend any energy to examine their feelings as there are no feelings to examine. You HAVE to give men the opportunity to miss you if you really want to know how they feel about you. Stay away from them and don’t contact them when you most want be in contact with them. While this lack of contact can be *excruciating* and it can be almost physically painful to abstain from initiating contact, if you can resist that temptation, you will reap the benefits!

I know because I recently ended a 6-yr relationship with a guy with whom I started the relationship as per above. He calls me every day apologizing for the bad behavior that forced me to end the relationship, begging for me to give him another chance. I won’t.

I know because the “playah” that I decided to rebound from this LTR with offered to be my boyfriend after 7 wks.

I wasn’t looking for a relationship with the playah (I just wanted to be distracted from the end of my 6yr LTR). Yet I employed the same behaviors with this playah as I would have were I looking for a “real” relationship with him: While you can allow yourself to feel the feelings, you need to employ the DON’T ASK – DON’T TELL – DON’T SHOW strategy about your feelings until he’s your BF. You can be feminine, friendly, flirtatious, approachable WITHOUT showing how you feel. If he disappears, you have have your dignity intact. If he stays, you have your reward. It’s a no-lose situation. It simply requires steely discipline and practicing deferred gratification to get a guy to the point where he wants to offer a relationship. THEN you can decide how much to tell or show. Just don’t tell or show until he offers the relationship you’re interested in.
Michael17 43

Karl #5: I agree. This advice holds true for men as well.

Susan #10: I DISagree. I agree on the one hand that dating is difficult for women. Dating is no easier for men though. It might even be more challenging for us, because it is on us to initiate things and to pursue the woman in the relationship.

I get that women have had men end it with them at all stages of dating. Well, we as men have had women ending it with us at all stages too. And usually it is NOT due to us being jerks. It is instead because the woman just wasn’t feeling it. Hey, ask all the Nice Guys who can’t seem to get past the first date because the girl isn’t feeling “The Chemistry” (whatever THAT means).

I’ve read somewhere that over 70% of all breakups are initiated by women. Hmmm….

And I’m not convinced that the WAY women end relationships is any kinder than the way men end them. We as men have had women end it with us by doing things such as disappearing (one day she just stops returning our calls and texts) or even cheating on us. This after not only lots of sex, but after a lot of effort and a decent amount of money spent on our part in planning and paying for dates and trips and whatnot.

My point: Dating IS tough for women too, but it is just as tough for men. Our gender doesn’t have it any easier by any means.
DinaStrange 44

Love you writing, Evan. Seriously, why aren’t you in Hollywood writing scripts…you’ve got a talent.
DinaStrange 45

One thing where I disagree thought. When you “justify” actions of men who overshoot and under delivered as something trivial. A mature, responsible person should THINK before he or she acts. Mistakes are part of living, but certainly they can be avoided. I had never hurt a man, even though i did my share of breaks up, because i was very honest with them throughout the relationship so we both knew where we stood. If men attempt to do similar, instead of reacting to hormones first and thinking last – me thinks we got a future.
Serena27 46

Yay! My boyfriend has done everything on your list Evan. It’s always nice to get confirmation from a professional that I have a wonderful boyfriend.

It’s also good to know that it was natural for me to get as excited as I did. Frankly, though, the getting excited (falling in love, chemically) was a bit annoying. I thought we were very compatible and I was excited, but rational. Then ‘love’ hit, hard and it really threw me off balance. I don’t know if it’s b/c I’ve read so much about ‘the dangers of mistaking chemistry for love’ or if it’s because I’ve never fallen in love like this before, but it was a bit scary! I don’t know who would want to feel like vomiting from giddy excitement forever, but it’s not me! I’m so glad that only lasted a couple weeks. I also found myself feeling more insecure, which is normal when you allow yourself to be vulnerable with another person, but I’m glad I had the sage advice from you, your wife and other posters to keep me grounded and focused on compatibility.

Still, I worry about making mistakes in this early dating period when I’m still high on love (just not nauseaus anymore).

Never mind. I just received flowers at work again. Literally, at this moment. He’s such a great boyfriend!

Thanks Evan!
Mia 47

Fusee – I agree. I don’t rely heavily on online dating, and see it as more of a backup option. Especially since I recently moved to a less diverse area; being half white and half Asian when I lived on the East Coast, my match account was still flooded with responses. Now hardly anyone emails me though I’m considered sufficiently good looking in real life by white guys here. Annoying.

Anyway, the Western dating system is just dysfunctional. I find it reprehensible that people could disappear on others, have sex with no feeling, that people with no big deal breakers to the mainstream population – being fat, ugly, overly annoying/pushy/controlling, slutty, unemployed – are still forced to date hundreds of people.

I have family that comes from an Asian country where arranged marriage was common, and even those now in this country basically have their parents/ family friends set them up. They meet that person a couple times and decide whether their life goals are compatible. If not, they’ll get set up again, but they’re generally not meeting more than 6-8 people before deciding, and not going out more than 4-5 times before deciding on an engagement. It usually works out, and it’s not about these stupid ideas like fireworks, chemistry, hard to get, strategies, etc. It should not have to be as complicated as these stories convey.
Tom 48

Michael17, I agree that dating can be difficult for men too. Some women can be incredibly cruel in how they deal with us and other women sometimes don’t appreciate this because they don’t date women, but in general I find most women are decent and reasonable.

However, on balance I think women in their late 20’s and 30’s who want to get married and have a family have it a bit more difficult because of the inherent inequality in fertility. It’s like buying a house; each party wants to get the best deal possible. But if one party knows that the other has a time-limit in which the sale can be agreed, they’ll wait as long as necessary to get the best price. I think the men in their 30’s that the posters here have discussed are subconsciously doing that. This scenario obviously doesn’t apply when having children isn’t an issue.

As well as that, men usually don’t mind the number of sexual partners increasing ad infinitum until they meet someone, whereas many women are uncomfortable with doing the same.
Michelle 49

Dating is difficult for everyone, no one is immune.

The table can be turned very easily by saying that men who reject a woman on looks or body type are just as harsh as women who reject men because they don’t feel chemistry. I don’t think it’s fair to blame women for men’s daing woes because they want to feel a connection.

Men are NOTORIOUS for just disappearing or cheating, that behavior is not reserved for just men or women. That’s a character thing.

Also, when dating a woman for longer than a few dates, a good woman will return favors by the man in kind. It may not be exactly has he expects, but she may make dinner, buy tickets for an event, etc. (Not to mention the time, effort and energy she takes to get ready for dates–totally disregarded.) Again, if she’s not doing that, it’s a character issue. Anyway who wants to keep score? I know that’s a huge turnoff for me.

I agree with Tom, I choose to believe most people are ‘good’. As Evan said, it’s VERY rare for all the planets to align and a relationship to start AND continue for a long period of time. It’s the risk we all take.
h_international 50

Well, wise words and good mindset to have, but after each heartbreak I be able to implement this mindset only after at least two month of crying… What can I do? I’m a human being…
Michelle 51

Not sure if this will help, however, after each breakup, I spend a lot of mental time thinking about what my part was in the breakup and what I learned–even if it’s one thing. I find the agonizing time after each breakup becomes less and less because I know I’m getting closer to what I desire.

Regardless, so what , we’re sad for a little time after a breakup, nothing wrong with wallowing in that for a LITTLE while, then picking ourselves up and persevering on. Persistance and patience.
David T 52

@H_Int 50 and Michelle 51

Wise points Michelle and H. Let yourself be human. As long as heartbreak doesn’t include not getting a second or third date and as long as you are not wallowing excessively (2 months is kind of long unless it was an LTR) sadness is normal and OK!

@Michelle 49 “Men are NOTORIOUS for just disappearing or cheating, that behavior is not reserved for just men or women. That’s a character thing.”

Men may be notorious, but there is some evidence women think about it and do it at about the same rate.

Percentage of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had: 57%
Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had: 54%
Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 68%

http://www.infidelityfacts.com/infidelity-statistics.html
(no references to these stats, so they could be fabricated, but they do agree with other things I have read and heard).
Michael17 53

Tom #48: Good point. Women do feel more urgency to find “the one” than we as men do. Women tend to be much more attuned to emotional energy than we as men are. Which might explain why as a guy, I’ve seen both (a) women wanting to tie me down ASAP and (b) women not wanting to go on a second date with me because “The Chemistry” (i.e., this invisible energy that women feel strongly and that many men have a tough time sensing and that has little to do with things such as emotional stability, career success or even looks) wasn’t there for them on the first date. This behavior from women seems crazy to many of us as guys (“what’s this girl’s rush for commitment??” “what does she mean “The Chemistry” wasn’t there?? Why can’t women actually give things a chance and go on a second date instead of expecting life to be a rom-com??”) but when you think about it, it makes sense. Women are looking for a guy who satisfies them emotionally too, and as they don’t have much time, they feel they have to weed through guys quickly.

It might also explain why women complain about dating more than we men do. The clock is ticking for them in a way that it isn’t for us. Our preferred way of dating–let’s hang out a few times and hook up and then see if we are right for each other–doesn’t really work for women. Women feel the need to screen through guys fast. And so they might be pushing guys away with their urgency to settle down, or not be giving guys a fair chance, which might be why they might see the dating world as mostly either charming rogues who won’t commit, or boring Nice Guys whom they don’t want to see again.

EMK is I think, pushing women to (a) give certain guys a chance–maybe the fellow in front of her isn’t a boring Nice Guy but someone who needs time to warm up, and (b) stop pressing guys for commitment–many of us aren’t rogues so much as we need to see she’s a great woman before she commits.

That said, I am learning a lot from the opposite gender from reading the women’s comments on here!
sam 54

What about when the guy is your boyfriend, has talked about getting married end of year, goes on about a place where he wants your reception to be…then disappears and ends up marrying someone else after 4 months?

Finding it very hard to persevere and be positive after that!
Fusee 55

@Mia #47: You say: “Anyway, the Western dating system is just dysfunctional.”

I totally agree with you. The whole system has become a shopping experience. You now click on tick boxes to make your selection, you read some description, you try, you don’t like, you return, you start over. Soon they are going to add the possibly to write reviews on your online dates!

If you become emotionally devastated by the process, you are encouraged to look at it as if you were simply practising playing darts. You miss the target. Oh well, try again. Persevere. No doubt that some of us can approach it that way. Some are more resilient than others. Some see it with more humor than others. Not all of us though. Emotional investments take their toll on more sensitive people. But wait a minute! We must not become emotionally invested before months in the process, possibly not before marriage which has to be waited for for three years…

So now we have a whole culture practising very hard at deshumanizing a process that should be about mutual respect and appreciation. And we are teaching other cutures to do the same…

Let’s be clear: I’m glad the feminists fought for more equality, I’m grateful for the freedom I enjoy that my grandparents – and parents to some degree – did not have. But the loss of societal pressure to feel content by sharing life with a decent companion and honor commitments will also have a negative effect on humanity.

For me, meeting my man and growing a solid friendship-based relationship with him happened when I opted out of the “dating culture” and chose a middle way between this ridiculous system and the more traditional old-fashioned ways. Instead of keeping accepting dates right and left and going the “trial-and-error route”, I focused instead on aligning everything in my life with my values and investing my energy in less but more promising options. I was ready to go for years without a date. I was not going to kiss without being in a relationship. I was not going to have sex without the goal of evaluating the relationship for marriage (I made friend with the vibrator : ). I had to be patient for sure, but there was no more burn-out, no more wasted time, money, and energy, and much more respect and love to give to my man when he found me. I was totally refreshed.
JB 56

@Michael17 #53 “what does she mean “The Chemistry” wasn’t there??”

I think we all know what THAT means….lol SHE doesn’t find HIM attractive enough(usually physically) to want to kiss him now or ever no matter what happens in the future.

Men are a little more flexible in this area. I date women I’m only vaguely or hardly attracted to all the time that I have very little “chemistry” with. It’s either that or nothing so I take what I can get or go without (as I do a lot of the time). For women it’s mostly all or nothing. Just my observation.
Michael17 57

JB # 56: Physical attractiveness actually matters less to women than it does to men. Or should I say, it is easier for us as guys to make up for whatever we are lacking in the looks department if we have a terrific personality. A guy will be more likely to be open to a second date with a woman who is just his type physically but the conversation is only “average” than a woman would be with an extremely handsome man in a likewise situation.
Christine 58

Thank you for the encouragement Amy and Fusee! I’m trying my best not to become bitter and just enjoy my time being single, while remaining open to love at the same time. I really value that input. Interesting you say that JB, I have often said the exact same thing. I’ve dated a ton of men who I was not immediately attracted to, hoping that something more would develop once I got to know them better (including this brilliant and educated but socially awkward scientist–think of a real life version of Sheldon Cooper from “The Big Bang Theory”). However, often times, these guys weren’t willing to try a second date because they didn’t instantly hear violins and get instant fireworks. I guess there’s enough of that “all or nothing” thinking on both sides. In terms of chemistry, I’m trying to learn to balance between crazy hormonal attraction that clouds your judgment (I’ve had that too!), and being repelled by someone (which I had with “real life Sheldon”). After making all those mistakes and swinging from one extreme to the next, I’ll keep trying until I find the right balance.
Kathleen 59

Fusee #55

You are blaming feminism because some people aren’t “content with sharing life with a decent companion and honoring commitments??????”

I ve always considered myself a feminist but was married for 20 years Your correlation that feminism is to blame doesn’t make sense to me.
SS 60

Fusee, I might have said this before, but I totally agree with you and what you did… I basically did the same. I know, I know, everyone would say that limited the number of possibilities I had, but you know what? That was a good thing. Because no matter what might be said about understanding men, there are some things that an individual has to decide she’s not going to compromise on. Compromise is fine if we’re talking about certain physical characteristics or a set dollar amount he must make (which is totally different from understandably wanting a guy with a good work ethic). But when you’re talking about general values, beliefs and ethics, then no, I don’t think it’s healthy to surrender those.

I did not want to fully operate under today’s “dating culture,” and luckily, the guy I found abhorred it as well… I think that helped us easily transition into a relationship and later a marriage. We knew we wanted something more than the “shopping” experience that modern dating often can be.
S. 61

Thank you, Clare, Fusee and SS for sharing how you found your loves. These are the stories I come to this blog to read and be inspired by! You may have found love in similar ways or different ways but what I heard in all three posts is that you were happy with yourself when you met the right guy.

Evan says men like women who seem happy and are fun to be around. (At least I think that’s what he says.) I know he says men like women who make them feel good. Women feel good when they find a way to attract men while still liking themselves. When a woman feel good she can make a man feel good. There you go. For some it’s being open and receptive, for others it’s narrowing choices and holding out for that one right guy.

Both ways are valid! All that matters is that you find that right person and are happy and open to that person when you meet. I’m glad to hear success stories from people who find that in all different ways.

Thank you.
Mia 62

Michael17 – physical attraction is actually very important for women, so impt that if we are in the rare position of being sexually attrracted we’ll want to date you. Since most men are ugly or average at best, we have to force ourselves to feel attraction to those we click with personality-wise. By the way , I don’t mind this or consider it settling at all; while there are certain looks that I could never be attracted to, the last guy I was crazy about, I was actually repulsed a few times looking at him but he had an amazing personality and was an amazing kisser. In contrast to the foolish male philosophy that a woman must fit his exact type, I have probably 10 different types, otherwise I’d limit myself.

And men are WAY more chemistry driven than women — most women (often not the picky, entitled, past their prime chicks writing to Evan) are just happy to meet an ok looking guy she cam sleep with, can be herself with and have a free-flowing conversation with. That’s not enough for men – they MUST know on the first date that they will marry you, even if they don’t know she’s pdycho, has bad credit, etc; men with Evan’s approach are rare.
Clare 63

@ Fusee # 55

I so agree with you.

I think conventional dating culture can totally burn you out if you are sensitive. I am miserable in a scenario which tells me I have to keep my feelings to myself and avoid getting emotionally invested until certain pre-determined signs of commitment show themselves. Not that there isn’t merit in this, but for me you might as well be asking the sun not to rise.

I think men are great, I genuinely love the way they are, and I wanted to keep this, and my warmth and vulnerability as a person intact. What worked for me, instead of filling my world with tons and tons of dates, was to pay attention to when I felt comfortable and pursue what I loved. I think that when you are your authentic self, and are in touch with that voice inside which tells you what’s right for you and what isn’t, more of the right people tend to be drawn to you.

When I eventually did find a man who made me happy, who “fit” with me, it didn’t look at all like what I, or others, thought it would.
Fusee 64

Hi Kathleen #59: Okay, that paragraph you are refering was poorly written. Altough I’m not blaming the feminists (I’m thanking them), I connected unrelated facts in that one sentence. I’m going to reword that part. Unfortunately it might become a long rambling : )

The correlation I’d rather make is that with the sexual revolution and all the activism of that time period, all kinds of societal pressures were removed, such as the expectation that you would get married after your education is completed (or even before), the pressure to keep sex within marriage, having children, etc. Let me clarify that I’m glad these expectations are gone and I find the (still relatively) new freedoms essential, as much for women as for men. I would not want to be a 1950s woman.

However with these new freedoms something else was lost, and we have not yet replaced it. We lost the simple contentment of finding a decent companion to be married and have kids with as a life purpose. We lost the pressure to honor our marriage commitments no matter what. Instant gratification is the name of the game these days. We now want it all in a husband: the best friend, the great lover, the exceptional career man, the protector, the family man, the perfect listener, etc etc. Just a great companion to go through life with is not enough. And if we change our minds, we divorce because “we deserve immediate happiness”. This is what I deplore. No blaming of the courageous activists who fought for more freedom and equality, just looking forward to adding more personal morals to replace the generic societal values that were losts in the process.

I think we now need to become mindful of our personal goals and develop carefully the character traits that would allow us to reach them. If we still want the commitment that the old norms were encouraging us to make (lot of people still do), we need to understand what the new marriage is (one that is not kept together by societal pressure but that relies completely on two people’s willigness to remain committed), and the understanding that western culture is now glorifying a “dating system” of instant gratification, self-serving attitudes, and poor personal morals, which is the opposite of what a marriage is all about.
Fusee 65

@SS #60, S #61, and Clare #63: thanks for your replies.

I was a bit ambivalent about sharing experiences that do not quite fit with the official target audience of this blog, but I realized through reading comments that there were women like me here looking for more of a middle way.

Yes, being content single is essential. Single is the default mode for women anyway since most women outlive their husbands and the divorce rate is at 50%. Let’s be realistic and focus on what we can control. Once it’s done, yes, making a man feel good is also essential. This is what love is all about. But making him feel good does not need to be at the expense of our personal goals, values, and morals. If the guy is on the same page and truly compatible at the level that matters, the “leverage” needed (to use one of Evan’s crucial words) for them to take us seriously must not be months or years of easy-goingness.

Me too I love men. For me, it’s not a war of genders. It’s a meeting in the middle, asking “what are you looking for?”, “what are your dreams?”, and go from there. If you are looking for things that do not match my values and goals, no worries, keep going and have a good life. If you are compatible to my values and goals, how about we go for a little ride together and see what happens?
Michael17 66

sam #54,

I am so sorry for your pain. That has to suck. I don’t have anything else to add than that, but what you wrote deserves a response….
Michael17 67

Hi Mia #62,

See what you said doesn’t jibe with my experiences, or we are misinterpreting each other.

We men are indeed very visual. For us to want to commit to a woman, we have to be into the way she looks. That doesn’t mean that personality doesn’t matter–it does, but if we aren’t really attracted to her physically, it’s not happening. Many of us guys, truth be told, will be willing to go on a second or third date with a girl who is really pretty even if the connection isn’t there.

My experience is that women are less visual, in the sense that they will keep on going out with an an OK-looking guy, IF the chemistry is there. By “chemistry” I mean that invisible energy between two people that really doesn’t have much to do with what the guy has going for him “on paper” or even whether the guy is that good-looking (but it does have something to do with whether we find the girl good-looking because otherwise we guys won’t be attracted). Most women are NOT willing to go out with even a really good-looking guy if the chemistry (the way I defined it above) isn’t there.

What am I basing this on: Well, truth be told, I’ve gotten plenty of first dates. So I had to be good-looking to get the first dates where the girl didn’t know too much about me and how we would get along. And yet I have had plenty of instances where the girl who went on the first date with me thought I was “nice” but was not willing to go on a second date. She didn’t want to go on the second date NOT due to me not being a nice guy or me not being good-looking enough. If I was good-looking enough for her to say yes to a first date, I was good-looking enough for a second date. Instead, she didn’t want to go on the second date because she didn’t feel chemistry with me–as I defined above. I wanted to go on a second date with her because I was physically attracted enough to see her again, and she seemed nice enough to not ruin it so to speak. I wasn’t too concerned about the chemistry so to speak.

I’ve also had situations where the girl warmed up to me. Yet my looks stayed more or less the same. What changed? We eventually connected/found chemistry, and maybe because of that she might have actually ended up FINDING me better-looking.

So to sum it up, men tend to go more by looks, while women tend to go much more by chemistry (as I defined above). This is what I’ve seen many many times IME.
Michael17 68

Mia again: You might have said this yourself in your post #62. The last guy you were really into was only average-looking to you but you fell for him due to his personality and his being an amazing kisser–Chemistry.

I’m sure you’ve also gone out with some great-looking guys who were nice and who checked off all the right boxes on paper, but who you didn’t want to see a second or third time, right?

As for men, we are much more into LOOKS and NOT chemistry. It can cause some of us to make rash decisions such as wanting to lock you down even not knowing much at all about the rest of you yet.
Mia 69

Michael – I must be very different from the women you date! I still have a text I sent to a girl friend after my first date with the guy I mentioned in my comment, and it said something like, “He’s an okay guy, but I don’t feel anything for him romantically one way or another.” So I went on a second date with him, since he was decent enough, and only then did I feel attraction for him because we had such a wonderful time. If I don’t feel blatantly turned off by something the guy said or did, then I’ll generally go on a second date with him. I’ve only turned down a second date twice that I can remember – if someone likes me enough to keep asking me out, I’m going to give him real consideration.

But I know plenty of pretty, normal twentysomething girls who have a hard time with guys, which has led me to believe that being cute and having an enjoyable conversation and having no dealbreakers is simply not enough for many men to even ask for a second date. They need to be bowed over by a head over heels feeling before appetizers have even arrived. Those things are enough for me and the girls I know, though, so even though I respect your comments and experiences, we must really be coming from different places here.
Mia 70

Michael – also, I should add, it means very little if a girl accepts a first date with a guy. Just as guys will have sex with a broad segment of the population, a lot of girls will accept a date with a broad segment of the population – because we want to be open to something developing, and if not, it could be a new friend or at the very, very least, it’s a free meal or drink. And it’s not that my friends and I don’t rule out men because we have no connection, it’s just that we would wait until two dates or possibly three, and a kiss, to make a final decision on that – cutting someone off after one date is simply too little time to make the decision. In men’s defense, I guess I, too, would have stricter standards for a second date if I was the one who had to pay for stuff, though men who don’t want to spend too much money would do well to simply meet the girl in the park for a walk or grab drinks or dessert only instead of dinner.
sarahrahrah! 71

This was a wonderful pep talk that I really needed this weekend. Thank you, Evan!
susan 72

ok i’ll admit it, i’m in the thrice bitten (minimum) now shy stage. I know the things I do ”wrong” in dating, but I’m really fighting the temptation to give it up all together.
It’s just so freaking exhausting.
Michael17 73

So Mia, where are you and girls like you hiding? This guy wants to know! [laughs]

I am surprised by your friends’ experiences though. Maybe they are dating the most chased-after guys? Most of us guys just want a nice girl who is easy on the eyes. We’re not concerned too much with chemistry or butterflies beyond the girl being pretty and interested (every guy has his own taste though). Age-wise, I’m well into my 30′s–past the partying phase many guys who are in their 20′s are in, which might color my perceptions a bit though.

Anyway, your posts gave me some food for thought. I’ve had some dating success, but too many times I have gotten turned down for the second date, getting “you’re a nice guy but no chemistry”. And at the end of the day, right now I am still single. I have a lot going for me and the first-date conversation went well far as I could tell too (often ending in a kiss on the lips), so I’ve always chalked it up to women being obsessed with chemistry and butterflies and the stuff out of rom-coms.

You’re saying that’s not the case. Thanks in part to your posts, I’m wondering what I could be doing better–either in the women I’m meeting or what is happening on the date.
Christine 74

sam #54, realize this is a late response…so sorry that happened and wish I had words of wisdom there. I’m also trying to find faith that no matter how bleak things are in life right now, the future can hold better and brighter things. I try to have faith that while I’m unhappily single today, that doesn’t mean I necessarily will be tomorrow.

Michael, I’m just curious about who these girls are who are apparently so obsessed with chemistry? Once again, it could easily be me saying the same thing, where the other party tells me that I’m really nice, but they’re just not feeling it and the chemistry isn’t there. It isn’t just the most chased-after guys who I’ve gotten this from either. I’ve dated everyone from the “nerdy” types to the “alpha males”–so I don’t think it’s me just chasing the most unattainable guys. I’m trying to think about what I could do to turn that around. I don’t think I’m doing anything that is an absolute deal-breaker, because these guys really do seem to mean it when they tell me I’m a sweet girl. Yet by the same token, for whatever reason I’m not inspiring anything more either. I’m the female equivalent of the “nice guy” who “finishes last”! However, I’m not sure what I could be doing to create that instant “wow” that guys want and expect. I’m really trying my best not to hate dating and all the snap judgments and pressure that come with it.
Two of Us Dating 75

Once again excellent words of advice. As Evan says, there are far more people out there that aren’t right for me than there are “right” ones. We all know that attraction is a split second decision and it’s what brings 2 people together. They sit and talk, get to know each other and see if there is any “chemistry”. If the attraction and chemistry is there for both parties then some exclusive dating begins, where we are overcome with all kinds of feelings and emotions, and typically says things based on the “energy” being generated by 2 people who are attracted to each other and have a lot of “chemistry” going on. But as Evan points out, this really doesn’t mean much. Attraction brings 2 people together and chemistry takes it to the next level, but these 2 things do not keep people together. What keeps people together is compatibility, who they are on the inside and what they have to offer each other a human beings. It’s an understanding that there are thousands of men you will find attractive and have chemistry with, but only a very small percentage of them are you actually compatible with. But as Evan says, you must continue to participate in the dating game and eventually you will find that right person. Persistence and belief is the key.
Susan61 76

Great concepts and advice, Evan, thank you. I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately in the real world it can be challenging to put this philosophy into practice. I can only speak from the female point of view, but being pursued by a man and then becoming sexually intimate, only to be dumped at the typical 3 month mark can be devastating, especially as you get older. The last time it happened to me, I read all the uplifting books, did the positive affirmations, listened to my friends and family telling me he was a jerk and a loser and I could do so much better, and it was HIM, not ME. I had to see him through a shared work/avocation thing (and still do) so yes, it was much harder and certainly it is easier to recover when you have complete no contact. I did much self examination and acknowledged that I was 100% responsible for my actions in the relationship. Yet the lesson I took from this is : It can be very difficult to *not* take it personally when the guy, as you said, “shot first and asked questions later” and after shooting a few times, decided to take his gun elsewhere (sorry for the tacky analogy…)

See, as a woman, I don’t just jump into bed with a man I don’t want to have a relationship with but as we all know, many men WILL and DO. Why? Because sex is much harder to come by for men (yes, I know I am again stating the OBVIOUS) so when it is available, it is very difficult for the average man to say “no” when the average woman has to say “no” or else she risks pregnancy, and due to the still existing double standard, risks being considered too “easy”, being labelled a slut, other social ridicule, etc.

I was 47 and he was 49 when he dumped me at 3 months after becoming sexually intimate, so it happens at any age. It is encouraging and self preserving to keep thinking “it wasn’t personal, it was about him and not about me, it’s no one’s fault.” Certainly all these things are true on paper but one still has one’s human emotions to deal with. I know for a fact I was dumped because HE realized I was not his ideal woman and he could do “better”. Why did he overpromise and underdeliver? He wanted SEX. Which he got, and then he realized he would have to give up his dream of his IDEAL woman, who is not just TWO years younger, but is TEN to TWENTY years younger, with a rock hard body, large breasts, long legs, smooth unlined ageless skin, petite features, silky long hair, and maybe even a trust fund.

The lesson I take away from my experiences, now at the tender age of 51, and this is not earth shattering news: is that when you meet a man you really feel “it” for you have to behave exactly as Karmic Equation #42 said: like you don’t care, hard to get and emotionally unavailable. Otherwise, you are playing with fire and if you let a man know how you FEEL too early on in the relationship, this is a recipe for disaster. Tricky navigating the mine field of emotions after sex when oxytocin comes on the scene, and as a woman, if the sex and “chemistry” were great, you just want MORE…meanwhile, the typical man (and yes, I am well are there ARE many exceptions to the rule) is terrified and looking for the nearest exit. Karmic Equation is EXACTLY right. Good advice for women.

Since my last rejection at age 48, I have had men pursue me and I will hang out with them casually rather than go on a typical date. If I don’t feel that proverbial chemistry thing after hanging out with them a few times and don’t feel a desire to kiss them, then what is the point? Physical attraction and chemistry have always been important to me because that is what separates a friend from a lover, right? So I’ve been alone for 3 years and it’s OK. I’m used to it, yeah I get lonely from time to time but the thought of online dating (been there, done that)…well, I think about it…and then I just move on to something else more enjoyable.

Maybe I’ll meet someone organically, maybe I won’t. What I can say is that at 51, despite now losing my power through my beauty and youth, what I do have is being comfortable in my own skin and comfortable being alone. It’s OK. It’s not the end of the world. Much more tragic things happen to people. I know I have attracted men through the power of my personality, as well as my looks, and that feels good.

And one final thought, Laura S. #29 pointed out a disturbing trend that I feel is the result of the relatively recent easy access to internet porn. Twenty years ago, men could not see teenage girls having hard core sex with all kinds of men at the tip of their fingers. Well, OK, all ages of women but mostly porn is young girls. In fact, in the 80′s most porn stars were older women (meaning say, 30). And none of these women in internet porn have pubic hair. It’s GONE. So the standard for women now, is complete removal of pubic hair. I have a niece who had her pubic hair permanently lasered off – forever. The idea that Laura S. met two men on the internet who on the first meeting wanted to know about her pubic hair is just appalling and is emblematic of the sad coarsening of the culture.

Sorry guys over 40 but for me, being bald “down there” is just not comfortable or practical, and if you don’t like some hair, then I guess we’ll just have to shake hands and call it a day.
I thought it was me 77

I am so glad I read this and each of your insightful comments. I am 42 and I have become so spastic about dating. I am fortunate to meet people both in person and on the internet but I find the internet to host more men seeking easy sex. Realizing this is a general statement I have almost given up on dating or at the very least taking a break.

I too have life learned lessons about giving up the cookie to soon because I thought he was working on being my boyfriend but his profile remained strong on the site.

I have tried to manuever past my own chemistry to men I have met that are extremely charming and seeming so interested but seem to want to squeeze my goods like I am fresh fruit that is ripe. That part sucks sometimes because I may want them to but I am over the “Hit and Go” era.

So I have take Evan’s advice and I mirror behavior. If he calls I call. If he wants to see me he will and so on. I have to admit its tough when you really want the other person to call immediately.

I instead try to remain focused on healing of self. Enjoying life and getting past the rejection. Most times I remove myself from a situation seeing that it is going nowhere.

I wonder if men recycle women as they date. Realizing the last one was as bad then call to see how they are doing. I have that happen allot since I am not nasty or crazy when its decided not to hang out any more.
Most men in my age group have already been married once or in a long relationship. They act like they have been freed from peril and have the capacity to spend money on nice dates but don’t really want to be with the woman outside of the physical. Or they are looking for women that are 5 to 10 years younger. Thanks for letting me vent.
Christine 78

I thought it was me @77–no, it’s clearly not just you. A lot of us are here to vent! It makes me feel better knowing I’m not alone in these dating struggles, so it isn’t that the universe somehow just has it out for me. I’m in my 30s but it could have been me writing that exact same post. No matter where you are along the age spectrum I think dating has challenges. As I’ve said many men my age want women in their 20s. I’ve been through the same thing, where men reject me, then try to move on to greener pastures because they think they can do “better” (i.e. some 25 year old version of me, or some version of me who lives closer to their city). However, I’ve also had a lot of them come back to me when they realize that there really aren’t greener pastures on the other side. By then, I have lost interest in them and don’t hesitate to cut the cord. I’m also like that with friends who I no longer want to be with (in fact, I recently decided to cut things off with a so-called “friend” who constantly gave me backhanded comments and unsolicited criticism). Life is too short to be around people who don’t bring out the best in you. I am looking for that special man who loves me unconditionally, who sticks with me through thick and thin. If I can’t even count on him to stick with me when times were good, how will I through life’s challenges? I also just don’t think your future soul mate is the one who sees you as some “plan B” for lack of something better, but who knows a great thing when he sees it and never wants to let go.
Paragon 79

@ Mia

“There are several factors at play that make dating more difficult for women than men. Let’s say that men are looking for sex – well, most single women are going to have sex with 2-3 new guys a year because we have sexual needs too, and waiting for a bf every time would mean going years without it. HOWEVER, most men are not inclined to want to seek a relationship with 2-3 women a year– it might be 3 in their entire adulthood. So men automatically have a greater market for what they want.”

This assumes a *receptive market* for any given male, and such an assumption is *not* justified(see below).

“Second, like many women, if I don’t like a guy I’m not sleeping with him, going on more than 3 dates with him, not mentioning the future or making big promises, not smiling, flirting, etc. I’m rarely pursued by men I don’t like bc they get the strong friend vibe from me right away if I don’t like them – nobody is being led on. The opposite happens all the time to girls.”

Because, this is speaking to an imbalance of opportunities for casual sex – if these imbalances of supply and demand did not exist, men would not feel compelled to bait sex through furtive measures.

“Yes , Ive rejected a number of men, but hardly any when there was an emotional investment. I’m rejecting guys I don’t know who hassle me at bars or in the street, and the reason is often that they make me extremely uncomfortable with overt sexual neediness, the types that tell me I’m hot and make no effort to see me as a human being. If a man considers THAT rejection that hurts , I’m shocked – it doesn’t count in my mind.”

Of course it doesn’t – you take a wealth of sexual options for granted.

“Meanwhile, I’M dealing with guys who wait til the 9 th date to mention they don’t want anything serious, who wait til the sixth date to say they don’t believe in sex before marriage but then ask for a bj, who after eight dates go on vacation for 2 weeks without calling or mentioning it beforehand, and kind of fade out.”

Tell-tale signs of men who are re-evaluating their options.

And if this seems a double-standard, then it exits *only* through the complicity of women(ie. if a large population of women are fixating on a relatively small population of men, the men will tend to have more options than the females they pair with, making them less likely to invest in any particular female, and more prone to detachment).

“And men are WAY more chemistry driven than women — most women (often not the picky, entitled, past their prime chicks writing to Evan) are just happy to meet an ok looking guy”

“Since most men are ugly or average at best”

Yeah, but if most guys are unattractive(as you are implying), then isn’t chemistry *still* going to be the limiting factor?

“But I know plenty of pretty, normal twentysomething girls who have a hard time with guys, which has led me to believe that being cute and having an enjoyable conversation and having no dealbreakers is simply not enough for many men to even ask for a second date. They need to be bowed over by a head over heels feeling before appetizers have even arrived.”

There can be only one reason for this – these men have better options(which implies that these women are grasping outside their LTR league).

@ Michael17

“My experience is that women are less visual, in the sense that they will keep on going out with an an OK-looking guy, IF the chemistry is there. By “chemistry” I mean that invisible energy between two people that really doesn’t have much to do with what the guy has going for him “on paper” or even whether the guy is that good-looking (but it does have something to do with whether we find the girl good-looking because otherwise we guys won’t be attracted). Most women are NOT willing to go out with even a really good-looking guy if the chemistry (the way I defined it above) isn’t there.”

It occurs that there is frequent male confusion over what constitutes a ‘good-looking guy’, from the typical female perspective.

But, ‘chemistry’ is a popular euphemism for sexual chemistry(acutely induced by sensory stimuli).

“What am I basing this on: Well, truth be told, I’ve gotten plenty of first dates. So I had to be good-looking to get the first dates where the girl didn’t know too much about me and how we would get along.”

Going on a date with a woman says only that you are presentable enough to be seen in public with her.

The thing to remember is that females hold different attractiveness thresholds, given their relationship goals.

For sex, females are sensitive to *high* attractiveness thresholds(much higher than males).

For a date, they may merely be concerned that he look presentable.

“And yet I have had plenty of instances where the girl who went on the first date with me thought I was “nice” but was not willing to go on a second date. She didn’t want to go on the second date NOT due to me not being a nice guy or me not being good-looking enough.”

How do you know?

One thing you should reasonably conclude, is that you (obviously) were not deemed attractive enough for her to sleep with(assuming you wanted to).

“If I was good-looking enough for her to say yes to a first date, I was good-looking enough for a second date.”

Maybe better options presented themselves in the interim.

Or perhaps her goal was the dinner, and not the date at all(I’m afraid Mia gave it to you ‘straight’ when she alluded to that possibility)?

In general, females incur less liability from dating, and thus there is always an element of moral hazard obscuring their true motives.

“Instead, she didn’t want to go on the second date because she didn’t feel chemistry with me–as I defined above.”

Again, ‘chemistry’ is chick-code for physical attractiveness.
Lovable 80

Dearest Evan
Can it not go wrong even if he is the future husband?Can it not happen that he changes his mind and realizes that I am the one and comes back?Did you hear any storys like that,or is it just never the case?
I mean.I thought that happened too,but I cant remember hearing about it.Another dating coach says things like Mr Right wont leave you.He will not give up.Is it that easy?Do you men know when you met the One?How does it feel?Couldn’t it be possible you say those things and dissappear and after one year uou medt the girl again and feel Oh,It is her after all?
hippie va 81

the whole “it’s not your fault if he disappears” is actually untrue according to your own book! your book says a man disappears because she didn’t make him feel good about himself (her fault) and moreover the book your protege wrote (have him at hello) noted that in eighty five percent of cases, the reason a woman didn’t get a callback was because of something she said or did, not because he was simply unavailable.
good advice generally, but this is a real contradiction here…
Sparkling Emerald 82

@hippie va 81
I think there are multiple reasons why men disappear. Sometimes it is NOT anyone’s fault, & sometimes there is behavior that could drive the disappearance. At least that’s what I got out of the “Why he disappeared book”.
As for the “Have him @ Hello Book”, well from what little bit I read online, it just seemed the men were being petty. I actually think their initial, “no chemistry” response was right, but the author basically needled and badgered the men to give a concrete reason, so after “leading the witness” they came up with the answer the author wanted to hear, that the woman did something “wrong”.
If someone really likes you, the slightest imperfection isn’t going to send them running for the hills, if it just doesn’t click, a black belt in charm school and being the perfect date won’t change that either.
Joe 83

@Hippie Va

That’s an interpretation that blames the woman rather than what Evan is pointing out – a woman can’t control what a man thinks or does, so when he “disappears” it’s a result of his own thinking and choices.

Since blaming isn’t useful (“effective” in Evan’s terms), it’s better to just acknowledge that the man left because he wasn’t getting what he wanted from the relationship, rather than the woman failing in some way. In this way, it’s about the individuals not being what the other needs.

As for callbacks, of course he didn’t call back because of “something she said”…that’s the whole point of talking to people, to determine if you want to continue. This doesn’t mean she did anything wrong – perhaps she mentioned she couldn’t imagine having more than one child, and he wanted to have a large family…or she was agnostic/atheist and he was strongly religious (or the reverse). In the early stages it doesn’t take much to disqualify someone, as little is yet invested.

In no way does this mean that the women failed in any way. If anything, consider it a good thing that he left early rather than waste her time, since it’s clear they weren’t a good match.

Evan is just advising that women don’t take a man’s disappearance personally – who knows what his reasons are, and in the end they don’t really matter anyway.