And to the person who wrote about wanting women to be women and blaming women’s liberation movement, have you checked some facts such as that most households need two people to work to pay off their mortgage and just afford ‘the dream’? Maybe it’s got something to do with the unhappy women, still doing 2/3rds of the world hours, regardless of where they are.

He read into Joan’s comments and suggested she had a fatal flaw in her personality, which was based on not any knowledge he had of her, but rather on a certain stereotype or image he had in his head of the older woman who is angry because men have let her down in her life. He then tried to tell her (assuming that she must be the kind of person that complicates things, because he had the assumption that this is how women are) and then tried to tell her a stereotypical idea that all men want is something that she is supposedly not (and by implication, cannot be. She is not “young” supposedly and she is supposedly not simple.)

Personally I think there is some credance to the argument that inexperience or “simplness” is attractive when one’s ego is in need of being propped up. It does seem like “simpleness” stands in as a veiled desire to go back to the days when women could not demand anything really of their relationships (marriages) with men because they were not able to be financially independant, and had been socially conditioned to be emotionally dependant on men.

Really, I don’t buy into the argument that men are by the thread’s implication “simpler” than women. They are often all the more complicated and make the relationship difficult because they don’t voice their feelings. (which can lead to emotional, anger issues.)

It is notable however, that while the higher divorce rates keep being cited in this thread, no one has pointed out that these they are propped up superficially so, because historically, it was much more difficult to get divorces, and so there were many many more instances of separated families (one or more spouse disappearing from the family picture.) Apparently if you compare these numbers with present day divorce rates the numbers are nearly the same.

Relationships are difficult. However, from reading this thread it has become apparent to me that when men say they want simple, what they really want is someone who will give a lot and not ask them for very much. A model which is now outdated to western women’s expectations. Women in turn, are asking for perhaps too much, because these men were often raised to be this way. If we don’t raise our boys to be giving and thoughtful, how are we going to get the men they grow into to be that way? And stop seeing the situation as polarized or as either gender being inherently one way or the other, which is what Evan instated in his initial advice.

My advice to Joan is to go ask your guy friends for feedback, and look at the factors that attract you to a particular man. You might be attracted to unhealthy personal attributes that lay the groundword for these failed relationships. Try dating a different kind of guy than you’re used to dating. But most of all try to get at the source of the problem through self knowledge and respectfully with the help of people that know you. Buying into these assumptions about who you are, just because you are a woman, is not productive.

Selfish is NOT the right word.

There is NOTHING wrong with looking out for our own self interests. 

There is NOTHING wrong with building a strong boundary–where we choose who we let into our lives and choose what type of behavior we are willing to accept or not accept. 

Both of the above apply to all relationships in life.  Keeping focus on that makes us kind but firm, strong but empathetic–and, most importantly, keeps us focused on these things we can control, which is only ourselves.