Jun18

Where Do You Draw The Line When Your Girlfriend Asks For Money?

05:00 am on Jun 18th 2009 Evan Marc Katz

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82 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice

82 Responses to “Where Do You Draw The Line When Your Girlfriend Asks For Money?”

1. Jennifer Jun 18th 2009 at 05:56 am 1

   I had a very different take on this situation than Evan did. I didn’t get that she’s trying to exploit him, but that she genuinely views them as partners and likely sees the relationship as more serious/permanent than he does.

   That doesn’t make it right; I think it’s a piss poor idea for an adult woman to be financially dependant on anyone, married or not. Hopefully she’s getting the type of degree that will provide a positive ROI in terms of real dollars and she won’t find herself in this situation again. But it does mean that her crime is being naive and a bit misguided as opposed to being an exploitative gold digger.

   What made me read the letter in a more sympathetic way was her ‘i’d do anything for you and we’re in this together’ reasoning versus ‘you’re a man and it’s your job to take care of me’. Had she said the latter I’d see a problem, but that didn’t seem to be her attitude here.

2. Karl R Jun 18th 2009 at 06:12 am 2

   Bob said: (original post)
   “She says that since she would do anything for me if I had problems,”

   Maybe she would. Maybe she wouldn’t.

   Relationships are a two way street. As much as we talk about “unconditional love” in relationships, there’s a lot of quid pro quo in the early stages. (Familial relationships, like parent-child, are an exception.)

   How does someone become my confidant? They confide in me, and they don’t betray my confidences. I don’t start out by discussing my biggest secrets. I start with smaller stuff and see what happens.

   I’ve loaned friends $1,000 or more, but it wasn’t the first loan. I loaned them a small amount, and they repaid me. I loaned them a larger amount, and they repaid me. Eventually they had built up the trust where I felt confident that they would repay larger amounts. And some of them loaned me money too.

   It doesn’t sound like Bob’s girlfriend has taken the necessary steps to prove that she would “do anything” for him.

3. Curly Girl Jun 18th 2009 at 06:24 am 3

   Hear, hear! Dump her!

4. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 07:11 am 4

   Wow, I’m really looking forward to reading other people’s comments as I have not thought about this issue whatsoever. I’ve never been in this situation.

   Evan has a great point. If the situation was inverted into a guy not thinking his finances through before making a big commitment, then asked his girlfriend to supplement his income and pay for his short sightedness there would be a chorus of “throw the bum out” from men as well as women.

   It isn’t that neat and clean.

   Contemporary American culture is fairly heterogeneous in what it expects from adult females. Even limiting things to just my own social circles, I know happily coupled couples who take care of their expenses like single people would on one extreme and on the other extreme I have a friend whose husband pays all of the bills despite them not having children.

   Whether a given woman is irresponsible, has unreasonable expectations for the men in her life or not comes down to the particular people you talk to.

   I women friends in their mid thirties who take thousands of dollars from their parents and who have not taken a dime from anyone since their teen years. All them consider themselves to be responsible adults.

   I think it was shrewd of Evan to suggest drawing the line at wives, live in partners or women with that potential.

   A relationship with a GF of nine months could end tomorrow. In that situation getting stuck with 1-2 loans of a few hundred dollars is one thing but getting stuck with much more would be another thing altogether.

   I guess it is time for contemporary American men to begin evaluating women by how women handle their finances and their financial expectations of men. Do you want an old school woman, a woman who views her finances the way you would for yourself or the hybrid who take care of yourself but who would view you as an acceptable backup?

5. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 07:58 am 5

   Jennifer Jun 18th 2009 at 05:56 am 1
   I had a very different take on this situation than Evan did. I didn’t get that she’s trying to exploit him,

   Why do you have the impression that Evan though the GF was trying to exploit him?

   What made me read the letter in a more sympathetic way was her ‘i’d do anything for you and we’re in this together’ reasoning versus ‘you’re a man and it’s your job to take care of me’. Had she said the latter I’d see a problem

   Interesting. I thought I read exactly that with this line from Bob’s letter:

   since she says she really can’t stand the thought of her man not helping her out if he can afford to do so.

6. Honey Jun 18th 2009 at 08:00 am 6

   My reactions to this:

   1) Is there ANY reason this woman can’t get student loans like EVERYONE ELSE who goes back to school and finance her life that way? If she hasn’t taken them out, it’s not too late to start – you can file your FAFSA late and/or ask for a budget reevaluation that will increase the amount of her aid. If things continue to go well with these two, then perhaps they will get married and he will feel differently about paying her loans off than he did about paying for her lifestyle upfront (or maybe she will make enough money after the additional schooling to pay them off herself).

   2) If everything else in the relationship is good and this is only making him uncomfortable because they aren’t engaged/living together, then perhaps she should sell her house (or he should sell his) and they should move in together. FWIW, this is one of the reasons I will NEVER buy a house. You can always downgrade easily if your life situation changes and you are renting. The same is not true, as we have seen over and over in this economy, if you “own” (I put own in quotation marks since if you don’t have your house completely paid off you are really still renting from the REAL owner, which is the bank, only you get all the liability – in what universe is that a deal?).

   3) Observation from my life – this isn’t really a gender issue or an income issue. It seems to me to be a money-management issue, which is totally separate. I have lent the BF thousands of dollars on numerous occasions, including a) when I was still in grad school making $14K per year and he had graduated and was making $90K, and b) now that I’ve graduated as well but am making less than half of what he does (he has about $7K on one of my credit cards because my interest rates are so much better than his).

   He is very responsible with money *now* – has paid off about $15K in credit cards and not made a single charge to the plastic since he started working, but he is digging himself out of a VERY deep hole that was accomplished either before he met me or when we had been dating less than a year and I didn’t really have a say (or even know anything, since I didn’t feel it was appropriate to ask yet) about his finances. If I wasn’t confident that he’d learned the error of his ways then I wouldn’t be dating him or lending him money. As it is, I am confident in our future.

   However (again FWIW) there is no way in HELL I would have loaned him money when we’d been dating less than a year. At that time, I would have run as fast as my little legs could go. But that’s hardly blanket advice for anyone’s situation – this one may be different. Only Bob can say.

   Honey´s last blog post…Crummy Weekend

7. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 08:07 am 7

   I think Karl in post #2 bring up a good point.

   Bob’s GF is expecting something that happens in relationships that are established past a certain point. It doesn’t seem clear to Bob if they have passed that point yet. Evan tried to define that point as wife/live-in level relationship.

8. Jennifer Jun 18th 2009 at 08:12 am 8

   @Steve #4 I think your quote below is right on:

   I guess it is time for contemporary American men to begin evaluating women by how women handle their finances and their financial expectations of men. Do you want an old school woman, a woman who views her finances the way you would for yourself or the hybrid who take care of yourself but who would view you as an acceptable backup?

   People need to talk about their expectations, and the state of their relationship, so no one is confused.

9. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 09:07 am 9

   An interesting way to look at this is to imagine they are in the future telling someone else about the breakup

   “My girlfriend and I broke up. She ran into financial trouble from a poor decision she made. I loaned/gave her several thousand dollars. It became clear she would need a lot more. I didn’t want to go there”.
   

   
   I broke up with my boyfriend. I made some bad decisions and ran into financial trouble. He gave/loaned me several thousand dollars. I needed a lot more. He didn’t feel comfortable giving more money. It made me upset, so I ended the relationship
   

   Which sounds worse to people?

10. Selena Jun 18th 2009 at 09:27 am 10

    Hmmm, well it would seem her field isn’t mathmatics or accounting if she couldn’t figure out she wouldn’t be able to pay her basic household expenses with a parttime job.

    Sounds like she sees them as partners. Bob doesn’t. I think it’s pretty presumtuous of someone to expect someone else to “help them out” when they aren’t living together or engaged, but who really knows what these people’s relationship is really like? Obviously they are not on the same page and this appears like it will be one of those “piss or get off the pot” turning points in the relationship.

    Bob it you really “don’t like the idea of giving anyone money”, you are better off avoiding partnerships and sticking to “just dating”. Also, for God’s sake man, DON’T Have Kids!

11. searchingwithin Jun 18th 2009 at 10:03 am 11

    “People need to talk about their expectations, and the state of their relationship, so no one is confused.”

    That pretty much sums it all up, right there.

    searchingwithin´s last blog post…Trust In The Power of Your Femininity

12. bdsista Jun 18th 2009 at 10:19 am 12

    What is unclear is if they are living together or not, also, “we have enjoyed each other immensely” can mean different things. If he is “enjoying” having a girlfriend who although may not technically live with him, but is over all the time and acting like a live-in girlfriend/wife, then it does not surprise me that she expects him to act like a live/in boyfriend/husband. Nine months of continuous exclusive dating may lead her to feel that way, or he led her to feel that way. I’m sure she told him of her plans. No one gets into school overnight, there is an application process, she has a mortgage-not rent, a mortgage, so I’m not buying that this is a surprise. There was NO discussion about her working part-time? Nice of him to help her out, but some of this he should have been talking about with her. She’s not totally irresponsible if she owns a house. I appears that she feels the relationship is on one level and he wants it to be a bit less of a committment. Would not classify her as a golddigger or him a sugar Daddy, but if he doesn’t like it, then he should leave. Oh and these will not be loans, he might as well write them off as gifts. I would imagine her take is, my man takes care of me when I need help.

13. Honey Jun 18th 2009 at 10:33 am 13

    @ Steve, I think her version would be more like:

    I broke up with my boyfriend. I was going back to school so I could get a better paying job, but it made things financially difficult in the short term. He loaned me a little bit of money, but wasn’t comfortable giving me what I actually needed to get by. I thought, if he’s like this now, how will he be if we stay together? So I ended the relationship.

    Honey´s last blog post…Being Tall vs. Great Game? Take the Game.

14. Donna Jun 18th 2009 at 10:37 am 14

    She is OUT OF LINE ! And Bob is being used. I, as a woman, would (and have) bent over backward never to ask for a loan from any man. If you are married is one thing but not even engaged would do. If you want him to be your future husband, do you want to look financially irresponsible to him? I don’t think so! And good point made above, that you could break up at any time and you’d never see that money again, or you could get her thru school and then she could dump you!

15. Eathan Jun 18th 2009 at 10:49 am 15

    The biggest problem is that you’re dating her and not married to her. I’m not into being a sugar daddy to someone I’m dating. If you’re married, you are spoiling her or just taking care of her.

    He needs to get used to being a sugar daddy or break up. The only 2 choices I see.

    Eathan´s last blog post…I’m Not Dating Any Longer

16. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 10:54 am 16

    I don’t think Bob asked this explicitly, but I think he wants to know if there is a way he can stop lending/giving money to his girlfriend and not have it impact the relationship.

17. JM Jun 18th 2009 at 11:02 am 17

    What a conundrum! I completely agree with Donna’s post and sentiments. Boy, Suze Orman would have a field day with this woman. In this economy, we are all forced to cut back and tighten the purse strings a bit. If you can’t afford to get an advanced degree (in addition to paying your bills) then maybe now is not the time to go back to school! Bob sounds like a generous soul, but this scenario is a recipe for disaster. Sounds like his GF is manipulating him and he is falling for it hook, line and sinker. I guess love really is blind.

18. Paul Jun 18th 2009 at 11:37 am 18

    If you watch those court TV shows, like Judge Judy for example, their court rooms are filled with people who loaned money to others – usually girlfriends to boyfriends – and then they say it was a “gift” when they break up. Always in an uncommitted relationship. that what is the beauty of a marriage…what’s yours is mine and what’s mine is yours, and we make decisions and sacrifices together for the common good. I personally agree wholeheartedly with Evan and a little more strictly in fact in that I don’t think, in any circumstances, should there be co-mingling of monies unless the two are married. Not in a “comited” relationship, or “living together” because what is that really? It’s not a marriage and frankly demeans marriage. It always seems to end in trouble when one loans money to another out of wedlock. This girl is trying to hold him hostage by saying essentially “I’d do the same for you” and “I can’t even think of having a relationship with someone who won’t help me”. My advice for him is to gently move on, or be prepared to state your case and stand up to her like a man, regardless of how she reacts.

19. Ava Jun 18th 2009 at 11:42 am 19

    Whatever happened to student loans? Oh yeah, right, she’d actually have to pay back a student loan. Even if she isn’t “using” Bob, it doesn’t sound like she is financially savvy or independent. She is not “entitled” to a loan from the Bank of Bob just because he makes a good income. Plus, he already HAS helped her out financially, so I don’t think he’s stingy.

    I’m sorry, but she should have had a plan for paying her own way without relying on her boyfriend at this point. I could see it if she involuntarily lost her job and was perhaps caught off-guard. But she made a decision to return to school and she should have worked out a way to do that AND pay her bills, including an expensive mortgage. They don’t live together, so it’s not his mortgage to share.

    I think Bob is having second thoughts about being involved with a woman who is isn’t financially responsible, and who doesn’t seem to see anything wrong with that.

20. Cilla Jun 18th 2009 at 11:46 am 20

    I agree with the general consensus that she is out of line asking him to borrow money at this stage of the relationship. If he saw her plight and offered, it would be a different story, as it would if they were engaged or living together.

    I think whenever you loan someone money informally, you have to be prepared to never see it again. If you think of it as a gift, or that it will come back to you in another way (a raise, a bonus, etc.), it makes it a lot easier. If people thought, “What if I never get repaid?” they might make a different choice about extending a loan.

    I’m from a big family, and we’ve all loaned each other money at one time or another. I don’t know how desperate I’d have to be to borrow from a boyfriend of nine months, especially if I owned a home. I don’t share my personal finances in any great detail with someone I’m dating–I don’t think it’s any of his business until we’re talking seriously about cohabitating. That’s one of the perks of being single after having been married to a man who was controlling and obsessed about money–how I choose to spend it is my choice.

    I heard the women on “The View” talking this spring about how singles are asking each other their credit scores instead of their astrological signs. Good lord, have we come to that? I’m sure there are a lot of people who will only date someone who is financially responsible, although that in itself encompasses a pretty wide range of behaviors (no debt? having manageable debt? having lots of debt but paying it down?).

    I myself prefer to date someone who is at roughly the same station in life as me–it makes choosing a restaurant, planning a vacation, understanding budgeting for college tuition, etc., easier. But I’m comfortable gleaning that information during the first few weeks of dating, rather than demanding it before the first date even takes place. And there’s no guarantee that asking gets you an accurate or permanent answer. Especially in this economy, people’s credit scores and monetary assets can change daily. Payoff your mortgage and decide to rent? Your FICO score actually goes down. Open a new credit card with a high limit ? Your score goes up. A millionaire can have a reversal of fortune in the stock market and become penniless in no time. Businesses fail. Property values decline. My goal is to simply try to start off on the same footing and with similar (or at least compatible) values about money. After that, if you are really with someone for the long haul, married or no, there is an element of “for richer or for poorer” that comes into play…

21. Jennifer Jun 18th 2009 at 12:00 pm 21

    @Steve # 5

    Hey Steve, I got the exploitation theory from this line of Evan’s response:
    So, in answer to your question: “Am I wrong?”: if you’re wrong about anything, it’s in being TOO generous with a woman who is perfectly content in exploiting your generosity.

    Earlier he also mentioned that Bob was being used a sugar daddy.

    Regarding the line in the letter that you pointed out, i didn’t read ‘man’ as in ‘it’s a mans job’ but more like ‘my man/partner/significant other should help me out’, with the assumption that that would go both ways.

    Like Selena and Karl said earlier, i think they just aren’t on the same page regarding the ’seriousness’ of their relationship, not that she’s being exploitative.

22. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 12:50 pm 22

    @bdsista , post #12

    If you were dating a man for 9 months and he told you that he was quitting his job to go to school would the thought occur to you that you might become the goto person for large sums of money if he got into trouble?

23. Honey Jun 18th 2009 at 01:14 pm 23

    On a side note, the BF’s an attorney, so he has written a contract for any time I’ve lent him any money, always with a proposed repayment schedule for large amounts and a clause that says that he will repay in full immediately should I demand it.

    So perhaps that’s a possibility…and if she’s hostile to the idea, then we know where she’s REALLY coming from.

    Honey´s last blog post…Crummy Weekend

24. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 01:44 pm 24

    @Honey post #6

    About item #2
    What about equity? If you HAVE to sell your house for less than it is worth you still get something back, with rent, it is 100% gone. If a bank forecloses on you, don’t they at least have to give you what you paid on the principal back?

    About item #3
    Its not a gender issue, for you. It may be for others. As I wrote in comment #4 there are a number of ways for women to view their relationships with men and money in contemporary America that would still allow them to think of themselves as responsible adults. Yes, outside of old school men there are men who would have no problem taking large amounts of money from their women but that is a lot less and a lot newer than the reverse.

25. casualencounters.com/blog Jun 18th 2009 at 01:52 pm 25

    @Honey

    Seriously? That’s HYSTERICAL. I’d die laughing if anyone I cared about presented me with something like that when they needed money.

    You’re hung up, America. Life’s too short.

    casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…XXXblackbook.com review

26. MARC Jun 18th 2009 at 04:50 pm 26

    Hey Bob,

    I’ve been there and done that.

    She’s manipulating you and you’re allowing yourself to feel guilty and resentful about it. Emotional extortion, guilt and resentment do not a healthy relationship make.

    DUMP HER AND CHANGE YOUR PHONE NUMBER. MOVE, IF YOU NEED TO!

    MARC´s last blog post…Never Judge a Book By Its Do Rag

27. Diana Jun 18th 2009 at 04:51 pm 27

    To Steve #24: The bank does not return your paid principle in the event of a foreclosure, or in any kind of mortgage situation. If you sell your home for less than its market value, you might still make a profit, but it depends on what your total outstanding mortgage balance is. A lot of homeowners owe more today than their home is worth, but in time, the market will stabilize and values will slowly go up at the pace they should have in the first place.

28. Honey Jun 18th 2009 at 04:54 pm 28

    @ Steve, #24 – no, if a bank forecloses on you then they keep EVERYTHING you’ve paid. Even if you still only owe $5. In fact, the more equity you have, the more aggressively banks will try to foreclose, because the more likely they are to make money on the deal.

    All the personal finance literature I’ve read says that you never get it back either way. Yes, if you pay it off completely you don’t have to pay rent anymore. But you still have to pay property taxes and homeowners’ insurance. OTOH, if you invest what you would have put down on a house in a diversified portfolio with an 8% yield, then the lump sum you have upon retirement is likely to be enough to pay your rent until you die, anyway – and you still have the added mobility of being able to downsize or relocate at will, PLUS no homeowners’ insurance or property tax. Home ownership’s a crock, and especially since the bust, ALL the personal finance experts I’ve seen have said that you should NEVER think of your home as an investment. It is a place to live and that’s all.

    I am hard pressed to think of any guy under 30 who wouldn’t hesitate to take a bunch of money from his GF. This is a (horrible) generalization, but this latest generation expects to be taken care of by someone for their entire lives, based only on their own supposed “awesomeness.”

    When the BF quit his job to go to law school, his GF (who made substantially more money than him even before he quit AND owned the house they lived in), quit her job, MOVED to where he was going to school, got a new job, bought a new house after they’d been there a year, AND let him pay only like $200 in rent per month.

    Boy was she pissed when he broke up with her with 1 year of law school left to go – she had to sell her house (which she’d owned less than a year) and move back to where she came from. Fortunately, her old company had realized how indispensable she was in her absence and gave her the original job back, with like a $20K raise.

    In any case, there are still plenty of “old school” guys left as you say. But it’s becoming more and more common for EVERYONE to expect to be taken care of regardless of gender. In higher education, they refer to them as the “snowflake generation” because they’re all so convinced of their utter uniqueness and invaluability. Is that last even a word?

    Honey´s last blog post…Good News Follows Good News: Or, LinkedIn Works!?

29. Mikko Kemppe Jun 18th 2009 at 05:07 pm 29

    Interesting question with a lot of interesting comments. I agree with Evan that if Bob continues to give her from a place of feeling like he is sacrificing instead from open heart then he is bound to end up feeling resentful.

    I also agree with Jennifer and felt like Bob’s girlfriend is not necessarily asking money from a place of purposefully using him, but instead from honest expectations.

    In either way, my advice to Bob would be to have an honest open conversation with his girlfriend to either find a solution like Ava and others suggested, or then to explain her that he simply does not feel ready to commit their relationship into a level where he
    feels financially responsible for her.

30. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 06:12 pm 30

    @Honey #28 Thanks for the finance info. About the other stuff, I’ve seen many articles about what experts believe is an epidemic on narcissism. One more tainted legacy older generations have stuck the youth with. I’m glad I was born when I was.

31. Steve Jun 18th 2009 at 06:12 pm 31

    @Diana post # 27 Thanks for the info!

32. Selena Jun 18th 2009 at 07:55 pm 32

    I’ve lent money to good friends and have been paid back. I’ve lent money to good friends and have never been paid back. And I’ve been quite resentful when I’ve seen the (supposedly) good friends who’ve never paid me back go on to make/have/spend more money than I with no thought whatsoever to repaying me when I helped them out during a hard time. Especially when they knew I was a single mother with limited resources.

    Because the resentment would eat me up, I decided a long time ago I would only loan money to people I LOVED. Called it a loan, but IN MY MIND I would decide it was a gift. If they paid me back? Great! If they did not? Didn’t matter because I had already written it off as a gift. Thinking that way made it alot easier to decide whether to help out a friend, or decline without feeling guilty.

    I think Steve nailed this entire situation when he wrote: “I don’t think Bob asked this explicitly, but I think he wants to know if there is a way he can stop lending/giving money to his girlfriend and not have it impact the relationship.”

    Why isn’t Bob, who states “I just don’t like the idea of giving anyone money” able to communicate this to a lover of 9 months?

    Most of you seem to smell ‘Golddigger’. I don’t. I’m getting the whiff of, “I don’t quite want to be your partner, but I don’t want to lose you either”.

33. Curly Girl Jun 18th 2009 at 08:00 pm 33

    So, I’m thinking that nobody thinks this is a good situation for the guy and that he should either say no/keep her or dump her.

    I am curious about where this sense of entitlement comes from on her part. I do know people who speak very disparagingly of “bean counting” and “score keeping” in relationships, but in my experience these are the people who are usually looking for someone else to pay and don’t like having the issue forced into the open (you know, the kind of date who will make sure he always stands behind you in line at that movies so that you get to the window first and then doesn’t pull out the wallet–then or at any other time).

    This situation here is really rather like the “who pays for the date” issue, but writ large.

    Though truth is, I’ve seen this behavior in both dates and friends. Some people are just rude.

34. Blue Jun 18th 2009 at 08:14 pm 34

    Hmmm. She says she would do “anything” for him. But that apparently means anything except being financially responsible for herself and her work/school/home/lifestyle choices. Talk is cheap.

35. dotty Jun 19th 2009 at 12:23 am 35

    What Evan said is right. I wouldn’t burden a guy with financial issue unless he is my husband, then it’s his right to take care of me.. Nonetheless, even if you’re her husband, i think it appropriate that she discuss with you before enrolling herself in school.

36. Lance Jun 19th 2009 at 05:46 am 36

    I would say it’s reasonable for a happy couple to loan each other money and make it a no BS deal where she intends to pay him back at some point. I’m sure the terms would be far better than a bank loan or credit card. Honey makes a good point though, get a student loan, that’s what everyone else does, and what she’ll have to do if/when they break up. I get the sense she’s pressuring him to give the money because he’s got a good salary, which is unacceptable. Dump her if she doesn’t change her tune.

37. Selena Jun 19th 2009 at 05:57 am 37

    @Curly Girl #33
    “This situation here is really rather like the “who pays for the date” issue, but writ large.”

    That thought occured to me also.

    Followed by the thought – 9 months in? What else is going on here?

38. Steve Jun 19th 2009 at 06:14 am 38

    @Honey, comment #13

    I didn’t see any difference between your hypothetical ex-GF quote and mine on an objective level. However, on a subjective this line feels emotionally manipulative ( conscious or unconscious):

    He loaned me a little bit of money, but wasn’t comfortable giving me what I actually needed to get by

    I guess you are trying to tell me that a number of women would see it as getting a reality check of the status of her relationship. He wasn’t ready to make a significant sacrifice on her behalf, so the relationship wasn’t as advanced as she thought it was.

39. Honey Jun 19th 2009 at 06:25 am 39

    @ Steve, that’s part of what I was trying to say. The other is that if they break up, they will each tell the story that flatters themselves the most and fits with their own vision of themselves. Not the story that is truest objectively.

    Honey´s last blog post…Good News Follows Good News: Or, LinkedIn Works!?

40. Steve Jun 19th 2009 at 06:26 am 40

    It is interesting to note, beyond this issue, how often being supportive gets equated with a willingness to give money.

    If I was in a similar situation I would value encouragement, emotional support and an in interest in what I was trying to do much more than financial assistance.

    I remember how powerful one statement of encouragement from my father was. It overrode all of my own doubts about a risky path I took ( and paid for on my own ) and years of his silence and criticisms about it.

41. Shalini Jun 19th 2009 at 07:37 am 41

    I was just thinking about something similar.. It often happens with me that I make a friend, we become good friends in a few months time and then that friend gets into some trouble. Whether its lending him money or getting buying something fro them because they can not afford it.

    And the part i hate is as soon as they’ve got their help they just vanish!!! They never call or text!! Its so makes me feel so bad… Now i don’t lend money to my friends unless i know this is a person who just can’t sleep untill he’d pay me back.

42. Selena Jun 19th 2009 at 08:06 am 42

    Just for fun…since we enjoy speculating on the motives of people we don’t, and never will know…let’s try this possible scenario on for size:

    Bob and gf meet either through online or not with the self stated goal of wanting a “LTR”. They hit it off. They really enjoy each others’ company as Bob puts it, and here and there the subject of possible marriage and children in the future comes up. Gf would like to get an advanced degree before starting a family. Reason being, it would benefit the family later on in terms of financial security.

    Bob’s all for it. He likes a woman with a higher level of education, not to mention possible higher earning capacity. Yes, this is ideal future wife and mother of his children material. So, Gf goes for it, knowing it will be tight only working part-time, but thinks she can swing it. And 100k a year Bob, could help smooth any rough edges since they share the same goals, right? She’s not just doing this for HER, she’s doing it for THEIR future.

    Uh…maybe not right. After helping her out with some bills and a clunker car, Bob is reasserting his position as someone who doesn’t like to give other people money. And seeks validation on that front. Bob’s Gf is becomming dismayed by this “new?” attitude and wondering if Bob is in fact like that husband in “The Joy Luck Club”; and perhaps she made a mistake thinking they were on the same page as far as commitment to a future together.

    Just an alternative scenario to the “Golddigger seeks Sugardaddy” one that has already been amply represented.

43. Kristyn Jun 19th 2009 at 08:44 am 43

    What stood out to me was “expects her man” part of the letter. I know we are only hearing Bob’s side and don’t get to hear hers but when I hear women use the phrase “my man” it is usually in the context of “my man had better be taking care of me” kind of thing – you know, with the attitude of “I’m all that and he better be down on his knees grateful to be my man”. I know – a lot to get from three little words. I’ve always found that attitude a litte repulsive and wonder what the guy found attractive.

    The other thing that rubbed me the wrong way was his phrase of “enjoyed each other immensely”. Not enjoy spending time together, not love being in each others company, not have a great time together – sounds to me like his involvement in this “relationship” is strictly physical.

    Just my thoughts.

44. Shalini Jun 19th 2009 at 09:30 am 44

    Selena,
    I don’t get why you are telling this scenario here.. :-/

45. Joe Jun 19th 2009 at 09:41 am 45

    @ Honey:
    I’ve always told people that a house is not an investment because no matter how much your home appreciates in value, if you wish to sell it you must move somewhere cheaper and/or smaller in order to realize any profit. Otherwise, to maintain the same standard of housing you are going to have to pay about the same amount as you sold your house for.

    It sounds to me like Bob is tired of being considered the Bank of Bob. There’s no reason he should have any responsibility for her expenses. This woman has a mortgage . Didn’t she make any kind of plans for paying that before she quit her job to go back to school? Was the Bank of Bob her plan?

    Perhaps she ought to get a roommate to help with the mortgage (see Evan’s other recent thread about dating the unemployed)…

46. -NN- Jun 19th 2009 at 10:32 am 46

    Sorry, I disagree with Evan.
    If you love someone, you help that person – if that person doesn’t repay, you get rid of that person cheaply, instead of spending my whole life on someone who is not dependable.
    And I have put my mouth where my money is – I loaned some 2500 dollars to a friend couple of times.. he paid it back – if he hadn’t it would have hurt, but I was willing to risk it – because I trusted him. Even if it was my only savings, I still did that, and I didn’t regret it.

    Likewise I expect a man I am with to help me – if he doesn’t, he can get out of my life since he just wants the good things that come with knowing me.

    Money is just money, important only when you don’t have it.

    I would say to the girl that “get rid of that scroodge, he is using you, he isn’t ever going to be there for you – and why would you trust him, if he isn’t there for you know either”

47. Selena Jun 19th 2009 at 10:38 am 47

    @ Shalini #44

    The scenario was an attempt to play “devil’s advocate”. Just that there *could* be another plausible reason behind Bob’s Gf thinking he should help her out besides plain ole’ greed.

    If they had ever talked about a “future together” the woman may have made the mental/emotional leap that they were already partners in life. The error here might not be greed as much as communication, which has already been suggested.

    Since we will never know these people, and it is highly unlikely we will ever hear “the other side” of the story – it leaves us free to speculate wildly. Wheee.

48. Mikko Kemppe Jun 19th 2009 at 10:38 am 48

    I really like the way Selena presented her view of the possible scenario, and how it gives this whole conversation a more positive alternative to the story presented. Thanks for sharing it.

    Mikko Kemppe´s last blog post…Do Men Just Want Sex? Should My Decision Be To Wait Or Not To Wait?

49. Karl R Jun 19th 2009 at 10:51 am 49

    Honey said: (#23)
    “the BF’s an attorney, so he has written a contract for any time I’ve lent him any money, always with a proposed repayment schedule for large amounts and a clause that says that he will repay in full immediately should I demand it.”
    casualencountersblog replied (#25)
    “That’s HYSTERICAL. I’d die laughing if anyone I cared about presented me with something like that when they needed money.”

    Honey’s idea makes sense, especially since her boyfriend has been borrowing thousands of dollars from her. Even if they break up, she will be able to collect from him. Even if it’s a nasty breakup.

    Bob hasn’t specified how much help his girlfriend needs each month. It could be $100 or $1,000. But she’s in graduate school, so she’ll probably need it every month for 2-3 years. That kind of money adds up fast. And unless it’s a loan with a written contract, he’s not likely to see a dime of it if they break up.

    And if you’re keeping your significant other financially afloat, it’s easy to begin wondering whether that’s the primary reason they’re staying with you.

    Honey’s idea makes sense.

50. Selena Jun 19th 2009 at 10:55 am 50

    @Kristyn #43

    When I hear the phrase “My man” or “My woman” I think of old westerns. Lol.

51. Helen Jun 19th 2009 at 11:55 am 51

    This is what I would do if I were in Bob’s situation. I’d sit by myself first and decide whether I wanted to marry this woman. If the answer is no, then I would leave the relationship. If the answer is yes, then I would tell her I felt uncomfortable about giving so much money to someone who wasn’t family, and ask her if she would marry me. This is the most straightforward way of dealing with the problem. In any case, I would not give thousands of dollars (which is presumably what she wants, though Bob doesn’t say) to someone to whom I’m not related.

52. LK Jun 19th 2009 at 12:57 pm 52

    I can’t imagine being on either side of this scenario. I would need to be married to someone before agreeing to help fund their education. In fact, when my ex and I were talking about getting married, I told him that I would help cover the bills if he wanted to go to grad school full time. But if we weren’t married? No way. And I would never expect to expect a guy I was dating or in a relationship with to do that for me. That’s what family is for.

    I would be sympathetic to her if this was due to some sort of emergency, but without knowing details it really just sounds like poor planning on her part.

53. Mary Jun 19th 2009 at 02:14 pm 53

    The way I see it, is that relationships are confusing enough without trying new or unconventional ways of doing things. I think that if a single woman needs money and she cannot make more or spend less, then she has to go the conventional route and borrow from the parents or from the banks.

54. Shawna Jun 19th 2009 at 08:48 pm 54

    Evan is totally right — don’t ever bail someone out unless you plan on being a de facto crutch – it’s not that you mean for it to happen, it just does. No matter the reasons — we are all adults and capable of making choices and decisions — this girl could have chosen to sell her condo or whatever before going back to school since money would be tight — instead she relied on someone else. Just my two cents — and trust me, I’ve been there. It’s never good — never never never. No matter the circumstance. You can’t guess at someone’s motivations — just don’t bail them out.

55. Selena Jun 20th 2009 at 05:07 am 55

    Having this problem come up 9mos. into the relationship can be looked upon as an opportunity: to evaluate what each of their expectations are regarding money management and partnership. They may have completely different models and “styles” when it comes to saving, spending, who should pay for what, and financial goals.

    Better to explore that while dating and see if they are compatible in that area, than to just assume they will be after deciding to live together.

56. hunter Jun 20th 2009 at 08:26 am 56

    If Bob has to write to EMK about this….Bob’s girlfriend, must have large breasts, and/or, she is good in bed. Bob, if I left her, I would have withdrawal symptoms also.

57. Bob Jun 20th 2009 at 06:24 pm 57

    Dear Guys and Gals,

    Thanks for your responses. In answers to some of your comments:

    1) She’d like us to get married. I got burned in a divorce several years ago and am not currently in the marrying mood. I am interested in a LTR, though.

    2) She budgeted for her 18 months of schooling and her living expenses, and all was going well until her car died. Without a car, she lost almost 3 weeks of work. Since she had no savings, the lost paychecks and the need for money to buy a car was more than she could handle.

    3) I suggested that she abandon her house or get a roommate, but she refused. She hated to lose what little equity she had in her house, hated the thought of having to move with her 3 kids, and was uncomfortable with a stranger living in her house with her kids (and the family barely has enough room as it is).

    4) At the time she asked for this money, we’d not slept together for almost 2 months. She’s a religious woman, and she began to feel guilty about having sex outside of marriage.

    5) I sent the question to Evan about 6 weeks ago. Since that time (and obviously before I could read his and your answers) I loaned her $1500 to get caught up on her mortgage and other bills. I will be giving her no more money, and she knows it.

    Thank you all.

    Bob

58. Curly Girl Jun 20th 2009 at 10:57 pm 58

    Hunter: Your idea occurred to me, too. Back when I was asking the question about where the sense of entitlement came from, that his $$ was hers, only 9 months in, and his talking about enjoying the relationship but not expressing any deep feeling for her. Somehow she has the idea that he’s going to give her the money. Why would he be buying into that for even the time it takes to write his question?

    And why would she be thinking she can get away with it? Because she can. (To borrow EMK’s phrase from another context.)

59. hunter Jun 21st 2009 at 05:51 am 59

    Married women struggle with guilt issues also.

    For some women, an LTR, is, three months long.

60. Jennifer Jun 21st 2009 at 06:58 am 60

    @Bob #57- thanks for writing in with more details!

61. girl-with-glasses Jun 21st 2009 at 11:06 am 61

    ***Applause**** for Evan’s response. I like money as much as the next girl, probably more so. haha. Sorry, part of my academic background is in finance, so I live and breath investment bankers. Well, that aside… IF Bob had wanted a sugar daddy relationship, he could have gotten one at the start. And if the woman is seeking to turn it into one, she can state her demands, and Bob counter with his own requirements. I can totally roll with that because I can be as superficial as hell. What’s NOT appropriate in my opinion is for a woman to be sooooo misguided, deluded, and assine, as to turn a relationship which she maintains is based on trust and love, and then guilt trip the guy into giving her money.

    She says she would do anything for you if you were in trouble. By anything, she obviously didn’t mean making enough sacrifices to make sure her own sh*t was together enough in the first place. No one is entitled to an advanced degree, and I bet she isn’t going for her MBA or law degree, but rather some self-indulgent crap. Bob you make 100k’s, I bet you had to slave for years, if not a decade, to gear up you own earning potential. That if anything, should be saved up for your own future, and your own future family, not some over-entitled, out-of-touch, guilt-inducing shrew.

62. Steve Jun 21st 2009 at 12:35 pm 62

    @girl-with-glasses, post #61.

    Please don’t hold back, let us know how you really feel .

63. Steve Jun 21st 2009 at 12:36 pm 63

    I have to write that I have been finding most (not all) of the responses from the women in this thread to be refreshing.

64. Kenley Jun 21st 2009 at 03:34 pm 64

    My answer to Bob’s question is a very simple one and it doesn’t involve speculating about the character, intention or financial responsibility (or lack thereof, according to most people on this blog) of a woman and a situation about which we know very little. Give money — don’t lend it — give money to people you really and truly want to help. Only give as much and as frequently as feels right to you. If for whatever reason, you don’t want to give them money, don’t. It’s that simple.

65. Selena Jun 21st 2009 at 04:17 pm 65

    Since this woman wants to get married and Bob doesn’t…I wonder how they will work that out?

66. Joe Jun 22nd 2009 at 11:17 am 66

    That begs the question(s): did she want to get married before the financial crisis that precipitated Bob’s letter? That is, does she want to marry Bob, or the Bank of Bob?

67. downtowngal Jun 22nd 2009 at 05:51 pm 67

    “..the RIGHT woman doesn’t WANT you to bail her out. The right woman wouldn’t ASK you to subsidize her education and strain your finances.”

    Amen!

    It’s one thing if a guy treats on the first date becasue he likes the girl and WANTS to pay. It’s another if he’s paying her tuition at her request. And they’ve only been dating for 9 MONTHS!!

    I would never dream of asking a guy to subsidize my motgage. Ok, maybe after we’re living together/married, but c’mon.

    Being asked for money early on in a relationship like this is a red flag. Men or women (yep, I’ve known women who’ve lent guys money, only to have them blow it on stupid stuff and run off).

68. downtowngal Jun 23rd 2009 at 03:47 am 68

    Bob, thanks for the update.

    As with anyone who writes a letter to a blog, the ‘main theme’ overtakes the real issue. In other words, this isn’t about the real “Bob”.

    It sounds like you’re handling the situation, but the money thing raises a good point about relationships and trust.

69. Ruby Jun 23rd 2009 at 08:05 am 69

    <>

    Can’t help but wonder if this changed after she got the money…

70. JuJu Jun 23rd 2009 at 10:05 am 70

    I see the words “borrow” and “lend” (or “loan”) a lot in this thread, only she is not borrowing the money, nor is she asking him to lend her some.

    If a man is in love with me, and he is very comfortable while I am struggling, I’d expect him to foot the bill for certain things, too (like, vacations).

    And, quite frankly, the better off he is financially, the more I’d expect (again, IF I myself am struggling).

    Because he doesn’t have to be with me specifically, but chooses to, and because that’s my general idea of generosity and magnanimity (not to mention, love).

    Only nowhere does Bob say that he loves her.

    Well, there you go, that is your answer.

    Also, the fact that Evan’s response is equivocal, doesn’t exactly give it power. If she is the one, then all bets are off, and if not, then there are all these rules to follow. Granted, I cannot believe someone would count on their SO like this only 9 months into a relationship, but I feel that one can’t use expressions like “gold digger” or “sugar daddy” if apparently the standard is not the same for every situation.

71. Ruby Jun 23rd 2009 at 10:26 am 71

    4) At the time she asked for this money, we’d not slept together for almost 2 months. She’s a religious woman, and she began to feel guilty about having sex outside of marriage.

    Can’t help but wonder if this changed after she got the money…

72. -NN- Jun 23rd 2009 at 10:31 am 72

    All that drama was for measly 1500 dollars?

    Like I said, I have loaned people money – in a situation where I was giving my last savings – if they have been important enough for me. If money is more important, then I just don’t.

    I think that I am worth more than money, and I sure as hell wouldn’t have ANY sex with a person to whom I couldn’t loan a a few hundreds to a couple of thousands of my savings. I put my mouth where my money is.

    I have to say, I wouldn’t date Bob – why would I give a piece of myself to someone to whom money that he has no shortage of are more important than helping someone who he says he cares – and someone who is working for their common future.

    No wonder I am single, and I like to remain that way. If I can’t trust a man as a person, I don’t want to be intimate with him either.

    (And no, I haven’t loaned money from men, but I have loaned money TO men, and I got it back too. I credit it to fact that I do know how to judge people and I am seldom disappointed. Only when I haven’t listened my own judgement and listened what “others” think – then it has been the time, when I have got negative results.)

73. Joe Jun 24th 2009 at 06:32 am 73

    “Madam, we have already established what you are; now we are simply negotiating the price.”

    –Winston Churchill

74. Selena Jun 24th 2009 at 08:10 am 74

    Response to Joe #73:

    Really? Sounds to me like somebody wasn’t getting the proverbial milk “for free” as they had hoped.

75. Seductress Jun 24th 2009 at 08:13 am 75

    Bob,

    Sounds like the relationship was winding down anyway.
    She no longer wants to have sex outside of marriage and you aren’t interested in marriage, right now, or with her or whatever…..

    I think giving her the $1500 was a kind and generous thing to do for someone you obviously care for and have been with for many months, but to continue to ‘help’ her out financially when the two of you don’t seem to be headed for marriage seems pointless and a bad idea. You’d resent it, she’d continue to expect it or view it as the two of you are more committed than you are.

    Maybe her cutting off sex and asking you to help her were little tests to see how much you truly care about this relationship?

    Friends, family, lovers help each other out with money all the time and that is fine, but when it becomes expected (which she seemed to feel) it’s rude.

76. Kenley Jun 24th 2009 at 09:49 am 76

    While we focus a lot on sex and money on this blog perhaps there were other things that were happening in the relationship that made Bob’s lady feel the relationship was more committed. For example, was she cooking for him on a regular basis? Was she doing his laundry, running errands for him, taking care of him when he was sick, helping him host gatherings for business associates, friends, and family? There are a number of things that she could have been doing for him — not just sex — that suggested to her they were quite serious. Why must we always assume that everybody is out to get something for nothing.

77. JuJu Jun 25th 2009 at 08:59 am 77

    Another thought I had: a single mother of three would never make such a drastic decision if she didn’t think she had a shoulder to lean on.

    I really feel for her, actually. She is now in this awful unsustainable situation because of poorly communicated expectations of the extent of this relationship.

    Btw, speaking of expectations: a lot of people on this board mentioned discussing financial expectations upfront, but really, is that something anyone discusses before marriage or at least cohabitation? I personally would think it premature.

78. Joe Jun 25th 2009 at 09:10 am 78

    LOL, how the heck would she have time to do any of those things for him when they, a) weren’t living together, b) she was going to school full-time, and c) she had three kids she was already taking care of?

79. Shawn Dec 28th 2009 at 03:35 pm 79

    I had a similar situation with an ex-girlfriend, but to a much smaller scale.

    We were both young, and she found out that her roommate was ripping her off for $50 per month by lying about the rent.  She felt betrayed and angry, and wanted to move into her own apartment immediately.  She had not planned on moving, and as such, had not saved any money for a move.  So, asked me to lend her $2800 to help fund the move.  I probably could’ve afforded this amount without repayment, but the whole idea made me very uncomfortable.  I understood that she felt hurt and betrayed by her roommate, but I didn’t believe the $50 per month (which was rectified through a conversation with the roommate) was worth her proposed radical change in living arrangements.  Her new apartment, even after the initial $2800, would’ve have put us both (if we continued working as a financial “team”) in a situation that could’ve dragged us under financially.  My position was that it was more responsible to stay in the apartment with the roommate until we could save enough money for her to move (I calculated 3–4 moths would’ve been enough time). She disagreed and we separated over this issue because she claimed I was not willing to support her decisions. 

    My point is that this type of situation is not really a financial issue at all.  It’s really an issue about the stability, responsibility, and maturity of any person in their life planning (financial and otherwise).   In Bob’s case, a stable and responsible (financially and otherwise) person would have lined up all their financial ducks prior to going back to school.  He/she would have made a prediction of finances and dawn up some contingency plans in case things didn’t go according to plan.  If that person thought that they might need to borrow money from their partner, he/she should’ve consulted that person prior to beginning the endeavor.  That way the the expectations would’ve been defined and agreed to.

    In my opinion, the real problem with bob’s girlfriend (no matter what their level of involvement) is that she is not a very “together” person who is responsible in her life planning.  In my experience, this type of person will continue to have problems related to poor life planning and personal responsibility for years to come.  Bob, I think it’s time to cut the cord.  Her poor life planning might sink you both financially in the future.  I cut the cord on my ex and I’ve heard that my ex-girlfriend is back at home in New York living with her parents.  I might’ve been there too if I didn’t realize the dangers.

80. Steve Dec 29th 2009 at 06:12 am 80

    @Shawn #79
     
    I don’t think it is fair to categorize such women as “immature”.   Women are often raised, still, with different expectations.   Men are still expected to take care of themselves and often take care of others.   Many women, while functioning as liberated independent adults still have the expectation of a financial fallback card from their SOs.
    Thankfully, there are many women who have moved passed this and like you I would not want to date the other type.
     

81. Taylor Jan 1st 2010 at 11:19 pm 81

    When she asks for $1.29 so that she can get a $20 dollar note instead of a handful of change at the supermarket , it’s cool.
    When she asks you to pay HER bills : not ok . Ever.
    They are not your joint assests and it is not your responsibility unless it’s a situation where she’s really broke and studying and you work all the time late and live over an hour away and she always comes to meet you so you aren’t inconvenienced . Then she may be almost entitled to ask for a bit of fuel money to get her through the week as she’s been putting in a lot of effort .
    If not , ditch her fast. I’m a 19 year old young woman and even at my age I know it is wrong and I would never feel entitled to any damn thing that isn’t mine.
    She’s a LEECH ! If you let women like that in they will suck you dry.
     

82. Taylor Jan 1st 2010 at 11:25 pm 82

    That is exactly right Donna.
    I too aspire to be completely financially independent . Not a parasite on the backs of others. It is not ok .
    If you can’t afford something , then you shouldn’t have taken the damn thing in the first place . That is absolutely ridiculous for any intelligent person to do . If she doesn’t have two children who need to be provided with some living quarters of their own than why on earth is she trying to hold onto a property she can’t afford ?
    It may sound extreme , but I would rather end my life then be a drain on people who care and the community .
    But that is my personal take on things.

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