Who Pays For The First Date?

Evan Marc Katz

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HER: He SHOULD pay, especially at the beginning.

This logic is a little dicier. Why should a man pay? Because it’s chivalrous? Consider that chivalry started at a time when men worked and women didn’t. Women, literally, could NOT pay. Thus, men picking up the check sprung out of necessity, not out of kindness. It has since been codified into a gentleman’s code, which is considered in very poor taste to question. I’m not questioning, but see how angry you are that I’m even bringing it up?

HIM: But SHE asked me out.

So what? If etiquette says that you pay for the first date, and she expects you to pay for the first date, and you can afford to pay for the first date, then pay for the damn first date.

HER: It doesn’t matter what he makes. A gentleman always pays. It indicates how he feels about me.

If you offer to split, and he lets you split (or even pick up) the check, he has done absolutely nothing wrong.

If a guy makes a ton of money, I can assure you, it’s his absolute joy and pleasure to spring for every last drink and spa treatment. But there’s a big difference between being cheap and being poor. Cheap means the guy asks the woman to pay for the fish when he ordered the less expensive chicken. Poor means that the guy has trouble making rent if he has to pay for five dates in a month. Put yourself in his position: it’s hard to blame him for wanting to alternate checks.

My solution is, not surprisingly, an equivocation. Let’s all try to understand one another.

Guys, be as generous as possible, not only because she expects you to, but because it’s genuinely rewarding to “be the guy” and make life easier on her.

Women, be sympathetic to the grad student or schoolteacher that doesn’t have the means to be as chivalrous as he’d like. You may not be our sugar mamas, but please don’t take it for granted that we’re your ATM’s, okay?

Postscript: A version of this article was written five years ago. Since that time, I find myself in a much greater position to be generous. I remain sympathetic to men who can’t blindly pick up every single check.

My slightly revised position for who pays on a first date is this:

He grabs the check immediately.

She does the “fake reach.”

He waves her off and insists on paying.

She thanks him for his generosity.

End of scene.

Presuming the man can safely afford it, this script should play out on every date during the courting phase.

HOWEVER:

You, as a man, can’t get mad if she doesn’t make the offer to split. If you offer to take her out, expect to pay for the whole thing, and be pleasantly surprised if you don’t have to.

You, as a woman, can’t get mad if he accepts your reach. If you offer to split, and he lets you split (or even pick up) the check, he has done absolutely nothing wrong. It’s not a game or a test, unless you treat it like one.

One final, overriding note for men: It doesn’t matter if it’s coffee or dinner, whether you make more or she makes more, whether you asked her out or she asked you out. You can never go wrong by paying.

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138 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, First Dates

138 Responses to “Who Pays For The First Date?”

1. smartcookie 1

   Evan,
   When does the courting phase end? After 3 months???? Once you have the “we’re exclusive” talk?
   I really enjoy reading your blog and am about to purchase your book.
   Thanks, Jen

2. Sarah 2

   I’m 28, I have a good job, and I am completely willing and happy to pay my own way or take turns paying. In fact, I’m insulted if a guy never allows me to pay. It’s 2007! I want to be an equal in a relationship and if a guy feels a girl should never pay, I wonder what else he thinks I shouldn’t do. He can feel free to lift the heavy things though; I’m 5’1″ and just over 110 pounds so muscles aren’t my strength!

3. Ramon Thomas 3

   I disagree here. Men should not be expected to pay. If we all believe in feminism than we’re equal and that means splitting any bill. Yes it does not seem to do much for attraction but there are ways around it. I really suggest doing things that doesn’t require any money. And avoiding dinner dates at the beginning. They become like interviews. I wrote about it here and also in detail here. Again if money is not supposed to matter and love/chemistry/attraction is all important why stick to an age old tradition if we’re supposedly living in a modern/free/equal world.

4. ABF 4

   As a woman, I am frequently confused about this “tradition.” I don’t want some guy thinking I’m a mooch or a golddigger but I also want to know if this guy is potentially someone who will be generous and supportive in the future (and I don’t just mean financially but it is the first way a woman can get an inkling about a guy). From my end, the fake reach – comes off as just that – fake. I certainly don’t want come off as insincere. So, I have resolved to be gracious and thank him for his kindness when he pays. As far as when we start to split or when I pick up the tab – it usually takes me only two – four dates before I start to contribute (i.e. he gets dinner, I get the movie tix, He gets tickets to a play, game etc, I get dinner, drinks, snacks at the event) If the relationship goes beyond a few dates and I sense this guy might stick around for more than an easy lay – well, then I’m giving financially as much as he is (to the point each party can pay).
   Sorry for the long winded response! : )

5. Andrea 5

   I agree with Sarah and ABF. My opinion:
   Guy should always offer, especially on the first date, but when a date slaps down cash or a credit card I ask if I can contribute. Most often he won’t take the money, but I have to (and want to) offer. After going out with a guy a couple of times (like ABF’s 2-4 dates) I insist on paying while noting that he got the last dates and if it’s a guy that I’m consistently dating we more or less contribute equally.

   Guys get shafted when it comes to dating. It costs them more than women. This doesn’t seem fair. Furthermore, I’m financially independent and personally independent and I want to exercise that independence.

6. Jaya 6

   I think of it this way:

   Splitting the tab: tacky
   Taking turns: sexy

   And as far as first dates go, I like the idea that whomever made the invitation pays for it. But it’s really classy for the invitee to do a small gesture like bringing flowers, paying for parking, etc.

7. Ramon Thomas 7

   Please under what circumstances does a woman ever invite a man out on a 1st date? In my research almost 0% of the time the time and therefore they never, ever feel obligated or inclined to pay or go Dutch.

8. Lori 8

   It costs alot of money to date when you are a woman. To prepare, I need to visit the salon (new men do not want to see gray roots), have a manicure or pedicure or both (feet seem to be very interesting these days) and arrange for a sitter. Every first date ends up costing me over $50.00 at least. Follow up dates begin to cost less (hair hasn’t gone gray yet) but if you want to keep seeing the guy, you cannot let up on body maintenance at all. By the time the check comes, it just evens up the financials.
   Guys, beauty costs $$$$$, so have some understanding

9. Jadee 9

   I only started dating again as a divorcee 3 years ago, and I can count on one hand how many times a man has paid for me. Two of which was just a single glass of wine. I have always had to pay my own way and is very tough being a single mom, because I am also having to pay for a sitter.

   Is it some unwritten rule that if you have already been married/divorced that the man doesn’t have to pay? Or does the man think that I am getting child support and should be able to pay for dates? Either way, I am tired of getting screwed around on money.

   For a first date, I would love to be “treated” like a lady. But I also love to be creative and cook at home, do a picnic, etc….I will be glad to make up for the “first date costs” with contributing to future dates.

   I think I need to do what my friends have told me and leave my wallet at home! I just don’t want to ever be stuck out at dinner and then he doesn’t pay…then what?

10. Jared Meyer 10

    Great blog, great responses. Thank you for sharing everyone. I have a few thoughts I’d like to share, which are based purely on my preferences and priorities:

    (1) Financial Responsibility. Anyone who forgets their wallet or to bring cash may appear to be financially irresponsible and unprepared. If a date were to attempt to grab the check, I’d ask her about her intentions, and make light of the situation. After all, we’re new friends and open communication would be required. “Whatcha doin?,” I’d ask. I’d then ask her why she was interested in either paying or splitting. Would I pay, though? Yes. Would I like that? If I really like her, I’d even give her an AMEX gift card as well as a “thank you” for taking the time to meet with me. I would be grateful.

    (2) Competitive Advantage. I have the feeling that many of us forget about the competitive nature of dating in the 21st century. Unlike in the past, the number of people we can meet and date now is abundant. If I meet a woman I’m wild about and don’t remain competitive by showing generousity with regard to my time, money, and heart, I will lose out on courting her. It’s nothing personal, it’s just the business-like nature of dating. If she has two gentleman callers, both of whom are attractive, funny, and smart, and both of whom share wonderful chemsitry with the woman, guess which one she’ll go for most? The one who values generousity, security, and “investing in the best.” Let’s face it, money is not bad at all. It provides freedom and flexibility. Who doesn’t want that?

    (3) Invest in the Best. For many years, I had had a negative attitude towards dating and the investment required. Why do you think that is? Aside from being raised a certain way with regard to money (“it’s hard to make,” “you don’t need to spend it,” “save it just in case,” “is it really necessary?,” etc.), I recently realized that the reason I was against paying for dates was because I was dating women that weren’t right for me. You put me in touch with an awesome woman that I can’t wait to meet and I would GLADLY drop $100 on a date. Present me with a nice woman who’s a time-filling distraction in my attempts to meet a life-long partner, and I will resent both her and the Starbucks at which we meet.

    Perceptions, preferences, and priorities. Which are yours and what are you waiting for? Invest in the Best!

11. Erika Moore 11

    Okay, okay, nearly everyone has a point here. But why has NO ONE commented on the rude behavior of the “Sugar Mama” shrew? This woman had “forgotten” her wallet (please), OFFERED to pay for a next date (talk about disingenuous), manipulated a low-earning guy into buying theatre tickets, finally offensively making it clear that she had no INTENTION of paying for the next date. Is this really the kind of woman you guys want for a girlfriend (regardless of chemistry)?

    While of course it’s nice to be treated like a princess (and boy oh boy, do we appreciate it!), I always thought that there was sort of a sliding scale: If my date is pulling down the big hedge fund bucks, it’s a pretty simple decision for me not to jump on a check (probably forever, if it comes to that, my reciprocity taking the form of nurturing acts like home-cooked dinners). If I’m sitting across from a starving actor, it just seems MEAN to let him pick up much more than coffee.

    Anyway, it works for me, it’s what I tell my clients, and I’ve been personally blessed in the great men department.

12. Judy 12

    Just throwing in my 2 cents – there are more ways to pay than with money (okay, get your heads out of the gutter). Because of my age (59) and traditions about dating when I was young, I am very uncomfortable paying for a date. However, I’m one of the most generous people you’ll ever meet. So I invite my guy for dinners and brunches at my house (groceries cost money, too); house parties given by my friends; volunteer social activities where I have given the contribution. All these ‘dates” don’t cost him anything. So, as I see it, we’re both generous to each other – just in different ways.

13. Giyoret 13

    I posted this on Jewlicious–funny, this also came up in conversation with friends recently:

    Splitting checks? Does not work. If everyone is gainfully employed, it’s just one of those social things that both parties understand. If I split with a guy, I feel like I’m trying to give him the message that I do not want to want to “owe” him anything and that I am buying the option not to be anything to him. C’mon. It’s not a financial transaction; it’s obviously an emotional one. If you approach dating as a good time, then maybe the splitting makes sense, because it’s entertainment. But if someone is looking for an exclusive, committed relationship, to me the money is just a means of investing in that. I’m not talking about wild extravagance here. If we end up getting married, my money and yours gets thrown in together in some fashion anyway, so how much time really is spent with the guy paying?

    I think it demonstrates a willingness not to be petty and keep score. An ex of mine, who had an expense acct. and who was making close to $300k while I was a single mom with a spotty freelance income at the time, would sometimes give me the vibe that I should be paying the check. And I did, like an ass. In 9 months he never bought me a present, or flowers; it was obvious that money had many, many strings attached for him. I did a lot of other things for him and was very supportive. I thought, you know, each person contributes what he/she can and that’s good enough. If we had to limit our going out to what I could afford to reciprocate, we wouldn’t go out to places we were going.

    I think economic stinginess correlates to emotional stinginess (it was in that case). Paying for dates, being polite and romantic gestures are significant because they are unequivocal messages: that the guy likes you, is interested in making you happy . Even if he thinks it’s a silly social constraint, a guy who is not willing to play the game demonstrates that he doesn’t care about the message he gives.

    Who needs that???

14. Jen 14

    There are still girls in the world that think drinks are free at bars, spoiled by the fact that there will always be a sucker guy around to pick up the tab.

    But that bitch was seriously rude. I would’ve shanked her in the throat.

15. mrs. vee 15

    There really isn’t a right answer to this question of who’s to pay. It obviously varies by people’s tastes/preferences/upbringings. If it’s an issue to either person on the date, then there’s an incompatibility right off the bat. It doesn’t bode well for the stuff that actually matters – like… if you’re gonna be compatible in terms of lifestyle, morals & intellect – if you’re getting hung up on this goofy litmus test so early on in the courtship.

    I also can’t help but comment on some of the warped senses of parity I’m seeing exhibited on this topic, even in this thread of comments. Sorry, but one’s trips to the salon for a mani/pedi and Brazilian wax do NOT count as financial contribution to the relationship. First off, it’s an optional step, as I know plenty of women content (or confident enough) in their looks to prepare for a date without professional grooming. And secondly, a lady’s upkeep is a pre-date expense, some thing you should be doing anyway regardless of your dating activity.

    Anyway, simply put, if the petty financial stuff isn’t feeling comfortable to both parties, it’s probably not going to work.

16. belledujour 16

    i hate cheap men, i hate cheap men with ugly looking even more!

    once i was involved with this cheapskate with a man who would buy a bar of chocolate for me (he said) then he halved it!! the same goes for sandwiches, hamburgers etc.. and sometimes he made complain that i never offered to pay (which was of course a hoax)

    one day he told me that he got me a gift, guess what? it was one packet of oil blotting papers made from china! he never gave me anything for my bday, christmas, valentine’s day etc.. while i got him an expensive gucci belt for his bday, a whole set of gucci perfume, after shave, soap etc for valentine’s day

    people consider me as a very good looking girl with great career, great personality and interesting social life, i thought that it would be a waste of time staying with that cheapskate so finally in the end i ditched him!

    well nothing is free in this world, if he would like to go out with me, he should pay and if he’s willing to give me a gift, better give me appropriate ones, becoz those kind of cheap gifts was truly an insult!

17. trouble 17

    Just from a female perspective…

    I think guys should look for tip-offs about how women deal with the money issue for insights into their personalities….

    I think every woman should at least OFFER to pay on the first date. I always do. If the guy takes me up on it, fine, but he’s definitely paying the next time. Or, we can split it and go dutch. If a woman hasn’t offered to pay by the third date, she thinks you’re a meal ticket.

    If you are okay with that role, fine. But, I’d personally think long and hard about women who force men into that role of having to pay for everything. I suspect you’ll find they are generally pretty selfish and have feelings of entitlement that are going to be a pain in the ass down the road.

    Just my take on it.

18. BeenThruTheWars 18

    Evan says he dislikes “The Rules.” But “The Rules” are tradition in dating codified. I’m a strict Rules Girl and credit them with helping me find my amazingly wonderful and sweet second husband, who treats me like gold and gets treated that way in return. (I also credit Evan for personally helping me rewrite my online profile, but that’s off topic.) At the time we were dating, I made six times more than my now-husband makes. However, he paid for almost everything the first 2 1/2 months we were dating, about 12 dates, until he asked me to be exclusive. During that time, I bought him a drink and appetizers once in return for helping me set up a spreadsheet; provided the wine (expensive/good stuff) when we had a nightcap at my house before he went home; and paid for valet parking during a date downtown (big city, valet was $15, it was one component of an expensive evening he planned, and he graciously accepted my offer to pick that up). About four of the dates were what I would call expensive (more than $50 out of his pocket for the evening’s food and entertainment). The rest were a movie and a pizza, or dinner at a little neighborhood Mexican joint and a lovely walk afterwards, or $10 lawn tickets to a concert with a picnic, or him having me over and cooking dinner for me, or taking me to a party to meet his friends, etc. etc. Relatively cheap evenings given the big city we live in, but we still had a blast in a casual setting. In short, he provided what he could comfortably afford, I graciously and gracefully received whatever it was he had to offer and thanked him for it and expressed my appreciation through affection (not sex until after we were exclusive) and the pleasure of my company. I was evaluating: “Do I enjoy and appreciate what he has to offer me as a companion and a potential partner?” and he was evaluating me as, “Is this the kind of woman who I can make happy with what I have to offer, do I like how I feel when I can provide these things for her, is she easy to be with?” etc. etc. He did all the calling, all the asking out, and never expected me to pay; he was the man, I was the woman, and that’s how he was brought up to do things, period. He’s old-fashioned and so am I. He loved pursuing me — he told me with something akin to awe on more than one occasion, “You are the first woman it was ever totally my idea to be with and pursue.” All the other women he’d dated threw themselves at him, asked him out, slept with him on the first or second date, and promptly started hinting about moving in with him — which made him promptly head for the hills. None of them acted like a lady and expected him to properly court her. I did, and he responded happily; it gave us a solid foundation to get to know each other, grow to become friends, fall in love and commit — all in the right order. He never felt uncomfortable paying for dates because he never spent more than he could afford. He always picked me up and brought me home, so he was paying for gas and keeping his car immaculate and spending his time driving, too. As some of the women above commented, I spent plenty of dough as well getting as prettified as possible when he came a-courtin’ (manicures, pedicures, hair done, nice clothes, etc.) After we were exclusive, I cooked him dinner sometimes, offered to pick up a tab once in a while, sprang for play tickets (I have a subscription), etc. But he still drove, courted me, and paid for 80% of everything — and he did so gladly, because he was proud to introduce me as “my lady,” then “my fiancee” (after six months of dating) and now “my wife.” Now that we’re married, yes — I pay for 80% of our living expenses, which is as it should be proportionate to our current incomes — however, whenever we have “date night” on Friday night, he pays for everything, opens the car door for me, helps me on with my wrap, etc. He loves doing it and I love being treated that way. If we go to dinner and a play, I pay for the tickets, he gets dinner… now it’s fully reciprocal. But in the early days of courting me, before we were exclusive — no way. That is what was comfortable for us. It might not be comfortable for everyone. But this “Hey, get with it, it’s 2007, the girl can ask a guy out and pay for everything!” stuff… it never worked for him or me. He’s in his mid-30s, by the way, I’m in my mid-40s, so it’s not like we’re ancient relics. I know casual hookups and girls being aggressive and asking guys out has become normalized behavior for those in their teens and twenties, and well… to each his own. But if you ladies (and gents) out there would like another perspective pick up a copy of “All The Rules” and take a peek next time you’re at a bookstore roaming around with your cappuccino. It’s “how things were done” back in the day when men were gentlemen and women were ladies — and today among gentlefolk, still, in my humble opinion. The Rules are great as a starting point for this very worthwhile debate, if nothing else.

19. BeenThruTheWars 19

    P.S. — for you guys out there who really wanna be cool and impress your date? The absolute best response to my attempting to pick up the check on an early date was from a guy I went out with for a few months about 10 years ago (before I knew about The Rules). He smiled at me (check firmly in hand) and said, “Sweetheart, if you can get to the check before I do — it’s all yours.” Now THAT was a classy move. I will remember that moment fondly as long as I live. (This is the same fellow who, on his dating profile, in response to the question “Do you wish to have children?” answered it with “Only if I meet their mother.”)

20. Jaya 20

    Jared wrote, “You put me in touch with an awesome woman that I can’t wait to meet and I would GLADLY drop $100 on a date. Present me with a nice woman who’s a time-filling distraction in my attempts to meet a life-long partner, and I will resent both her and the Starbucks at which we meet.”

    Great point, and also a reminder how the person doing the inviting has some ability to predict costs by choosing the venue. The first dates when you’re just screening for compatability don’t need to be expensive, long drawn-out affairs.

    I was reading this thread with interest because I just started dating again after a 7 year relationship. Last night, I had my first date with a guy I met online.

    Here’s how we navigated it: He suggested dinner, and asked me where would be a good in my area. I gave him a choice of 2 places: the more upscale restaurant with the nicer ambiance, but also said “and the tacqueria in town is amazing, too.” I felt like that gave him some control over the budget (though I still didn’t know how the bill-splitting thing would go.) When the check arrived, he said, “I’d like to buy you dinner… I want to. It feels like you’re the kind of woman who appreciates that.” Totally. Besides Jared’s point about wanting to feel that the date was a worthwhile investment, I think women need to show guys who pay some appreciation. Acknowledge them for being gallant gentlemen, and they generally love to act that way.

21. sheseizereason 21

    Was belledujour for real? If so, the lady’s a liability for the rest of us gals (and fellas please know she’s just ONE type of female on the dating scene, and a vaguely racist and illiterate one at that). I don’t understand why ‘belle’ even stayed in the relationship long enough to last thru 2 holidays and invest in a Gucci belt if the guy was so repulsively “Chinky” to her.

    I’m the first to admit that finances are a genuine measure of longterm compatibility. A well-earning woman (or man) has the right to limit her dating choices to only those partners who won’t interfere with their financial goals. But with silly stuff like token gifts and who bought the coffee last time? If you’re serious about the guy, and especially if you’re in a lower tax bracket than him, it’s really not fair to judge him on his generosity.

    Bottom line: you can’t fashion your relationship into a perrenial game of tit-for-tat. If you do, then you deserve a guy as shallow as you (which means it’s fair game for him to dump you when someone younger and hotter than you comes along).

    You can have a nurturing relationship where the two of you grow from each other and like being in each other’s company for better or worse. Or you could be in constant “what have you done for me lately” mode, adding up the cash value of his gifts and focusing on what YOU’RE getting out of the deal. You can’t have both.

22. Miss Julie 22

    Obviously there’s a lot of variation on this one, but my feeling as a feminist is “if I asked, I expect to pay.” So if I contact the guy and say “let’s do something” I expect to pick up the tab. If he wants to, that’s very kind of him and will probably let him (depending on what I judge to be the sincerity of the offer), but I wouldn’t be upset if he didn’t offer to pay. Now, if he asks, I expect him to pay, and I wouldn’t be thrilled if I were expected to contribute. After the first couple dates back and forth, this issue seems to iron itself out, but that’s how I start out with a new guy.

23. BeenThruTheWars 23

    I’ve always been interested in the argument that letting the guy do the asking out, the pursuing, and the paying — at least in the early going — while the woman graciously receives what the man has to offer while evaluating whether to continue seeing him — is somehow incompatible with the goals and ideals of feminism.

    I consider myself a feminist to the extent that I acknowledge with extreme gratitude the sacrifices our foremothers made so that we daughters of the revolution could truly do with our lives whatever we wanted and succeed according to our own gifts and determination; and that I view men’s and women’s worth in the workplace, legal system, and other such venues to be equal and worthy of equitable compensation. (Notice I didn’t say “equal” because our society is closer to a meritocracy than a true democracy.)

    But… when it comes to dating and romance… men are different from women. This is worth repeating: Men are different from women.

    This viewpoint isn’t about sexual politics; it’s about biology and instinct and hundreds of thousands of years of human development. So if a woman is all about ideology, that’s cool — ask guys out, pay for the dates, do the calling and pursuing, lavish him with trips and expensive gifts, and feel great about being “equals.” But then please don’t scratch your heads later and wonder why he stopped calling, or suddenly got REALLY busy at work, or dumped you for someone new (and more mysterious and elusive), or just didn’t seem to be that into you and won’t commit.

    By being the romantic and sexual aggressor, you took his job away. Men are all about what they do/accomplish/conquer. When you usurp their natural role in the romantic scheme of things, they either get lazy and put it in park and happily let you provide everything until you feel sucked dry and totally taken for granted; or else quickly lose interest and seek that challenge that gets their motors humming elsewhere.

    Why? Because men are different from women.

    It just depends on what your goal is, ladies: to feel like you are being ideologically correct, or to be happily married or partnered up with a man who feels like he went out and worked hard and earned himself the catch of all time, and treats you accordingly. To be a success in the workplace requires a completely different set of skills and strategic behaviors than being successful in the search for a compatible life partner. Take it from me, I learned this the hard way (and it only took me 35 years)!

24. Susan 24

    Very interesting discussion. As a modern woman, I have often wondered why men are still expected to pay for all dates. This seems ridiculous now that women are earning salaries too–albeit at 70 cents on the dollar. That said, I think it’s a really classy gesture if a man offers to pay for a first date. Still, I will always offer to contribute. (But, yes, I have to admit it impresses me more if he refuses my offer.) After the first date, I think it’s entirely appropriate to alternate picking up checks casually. (Not keeping fanatical track of who spent what, in other words.) I’d much rather do that than split checks, which is just tacky.

    Oh, and we ladies really should get credit for other contributions we make. When I started dating my ex, many of our first dates were lush picnics which I shopped, paid for, and prepared the food, brought wine, etc. Even though I wasn’t taking him out someplace fancy, there was real expense involved, and more importantly time, consideration, and effort.

    I also agree a bit with the woman who commented on a man’s financial generosity reflecting his emotional generosity. I’m quite poor, and to be perfectly honest I’ve VERY uncomfortable with men spending money on me. So I truly don’t want any big gestures. But little ones really do mean a lot to me. You picking up coffee equals me baking you cookies. We appreciate little gestures; it doesn’t have to be painting the town red.

25. Lisa 25

    If someone resents the cost of dating, perhaps they should think of different types of dates. Some of the best dates I’ve had were simply sitting on the couch watching a movie on cable, talking, going to a party, having friends over for a pot luck. Sure it’s fun to go to a restaurant once in awhile, or a concert, or an event, but is it really necessary to do something that requires a cash outlay just to spend time together?

    I don’t pay for dates. But I also don’t expect to be “treated” to something pricey every time either.

26. Miss Julie 26

    For me it’s more important that I be true to what I think is right and fairly represents me than it is that I tantalize a guy. My personal brand of feminism tells me that if I initiate contact with a guy, then it is my responsibility to be able to pay for that contact. If this turns a guy off, well, then he and I weren’t going to last for very long anyway. In other words, yes, it is more important to me to be ideologically correct (according to my personal ideology, not some dictate by the media about “Feminism”), than it is for me to have a boyfriend. Fortunately, I have the luxury of having both, at the moment.

27. PORTIA 27

    It took me a long time to come around to this – 17 years of living in the South – but if its a date, the guy pays. Men in this part of the world can get pretty offended if a woman even offers to pay.

    Having said that, as a public interest lawyer, I’m sensitive to how expensive it can get if the guy isn’t living off his trust fund or Google stock. I eat out a lot on my own, so I don’t need to be taken to a restaurant that runs $100 a piece for dinner. The guy should, at least in the beginning, pick the place, so it should be somewhere you can afford. If for some reason I’m picking, I generally go with something on the nicer end of what I could afford if I were paying. And any woman who starts ordering lobster and a bottle of the most expensive wine on the list doesn’t deserve a second date.

    My attempt at reciprocity is that after several dates, I will offer to cook dinner or pickup takeout if that’s appropriate. I also think if the relationship gets to the point where you are traveling together, its good to split. I will offer to pay for the hotel if he pays for food. This seems equitable, but doesn’t embarrass someone who doesn’t like it when a woman pays.

    BTW, I would never think of having a date get expensive theatre tickets unless I knew he could really afford it or he offered. That chick needs to be kicked to the curb.

28. JuJu 28

    Not children (and the related expenses) and being blessed with hair that does not require professional intervention to look stunning, I still have to reiterate the point on the sheer expense of being presentable, for a woman. A man can have three pairs of shoes (sneakers, dress shoes, and sandals) and a single suit (if his job doesn’t require him to wear them) and be content. If I, however, wear some dress to an event where all (or some of) my friends are present, I will not be able to wear it again, as everyone’s already seen it. And should I even mention shoes? Truly, no amount is ever enough!

    I disagree, Mrs. Vee. Yes, indeed I like it better with the Brazilian, for myself, but a lot of expenses are purely dating related (impractical sexy lingerie comes to mind – by the way, I briefly dated a significantly older man of 42 who was astounded to hear that an average bra costs around $45), and I am sure some of the self-maintenance procedures I would not have undergone if it weren’t for their sex appeal value.

    There is also the factor of most men I meet making upwards of $100k a year (it’s just that a disproportionately large number of Russian Jews [who happen to be my target audience] are computer programmers , which is incomparably more than what I earn. If on top of all my other expenses I had to pay for going out, I’d be downright broke.

    But then, I don’t mind going out for just coffee or drinks when we first meet, or even an entirely “free” date, like going to a park. I realize that a man who is seeing me for the first time in his life does not owe me anything.

    All the points made above about generosity are indeed valid, just a small note to Jared: of course it’s all about it being “worth it” (and so many of my dates just felt like a waste of make-up), but before you meet someone for the first time, how can you know whether you’ll like her? Just suggest something inexpensive so you don’t feel so resentful afterwards. It is truly her problem if she deems you a cheapskate for doing that.

29. JuJu 29

    Not having children, I meant to say.
    Sorry.

30. Nick 30

    There is definitely an answer to this, and I have it for you, I’m officially closing the case. The day women and society wanted equality and started working is the day I started paying for a woman. Why on earth should I pay for someone who has two hands and two feet, and earns their own money? Sorry, but this is NOT the 18th century anymore. Only suckers pay for women. I don’t need to “buy” a woman to get a date. I don’t care what you guys say, this is the way it should be for all, I don’t care how blindly traditional you are. Paying for a woman was done when she didn’t have a job, and she stayed at home ironing my underwear, and taking care of my children all day. You stupid stupid stupid guys who are paying for women. You will only attract gold diggers that way, and women who appreciate you for you’re services not for you. If she really likes you, she doesn’t care about who pays or not! That woman who this guy talked about in the beginning should be put to sleep. Rape isn’t any worse than what she did. Guys stop paying. I never pay for dates, and I get laid plenty.

31. sheseizereason 31

    I say Nick and belledujour oughtta get together just so we can watch the battle royale that ensues.

    And Juju, sorry, but mrs.vee had it right. Your $45 bra is not for anyone but you; it’s what YOU feel you need to wear on a date. One’s dresses, hair, makeup, and other prettifications are optional. Plenty of women don’t need expensive items or preparations to feel ready and sexy for a date. It’s YOUR choice to part with the cash.

    Oh well. All I can say is that often women who rationalize, “I spent $50 bucks getting ready, so he now owes me dinner” will end up with men that think “I spent $50 bucks on dinner, so now she’s gotta blow me.” And thus the world stays in balance.

32. Livvy 32

    I feel that in this day and age, it is important to gauge each situation individually. I am very happy to pay/go dutch but I would like to refer to one date I experience.
    I was a university student and he was a fast rising city bussiness man. He new of my situation and invited me out to dinner when I was next back from university. He chose where we went, which turned out to be a rather expensive restaurant in London (England). He was charming, interesting, very attractive and I had a fabulous time. Until the bill came; it was placed on the table and he pushed it over to me and said “There you go.” He was serious. I couldn’t belive it. He knew there was no way that I could have afforded it, and he didn’t mean just splitting it. I stood up and walked out.
    I would like to stress that if we had gone somewhere else, less expensive, or I had picked the restaurant I would have been happy to contribute (as he invited me) or if I had invited him I would have picked up the cheque.
    It is about give and take. We nolonger live in a society where women can not earn any income, we are financially independant. But it is nice to be looked after.
    Take each date individually, and be sympathetic, this goes for women too.

    Good luck

33. Alison 33

    Woah,
    Nick sounds like a guy who has learned to take advantage- and not someone who knows how to show appreciation and generosity- He may get laid. That seems to be his objective as he bragged about. Most of ‘his’ women eventually may also perceive that and be happy to move on.

    Many women (and men ) wish to be loved and adored. How can we show it? It can be with an expensive meal and travel, or simple desert bought on the spur of the moment. How about having a loved one’s car washed and offering a homemade meal, take someone on an impromptu hike – or for a ride in a private jet? There are many ways to attract another, and show attention towards winning affection.

    So much of what you feel comfortable with is effected by where you come from, and then dependent on what you hope for, want to show about yourself, and are able to do to attract and enagage a prospective partner.

    I think most men and women like to know/feel they are worth the effort and attention. Asking a woman out, treating her, shows her YOU think she is worth it- the time AND expense. And yes, as BeenThruTheWars says- there is biology and years of socialization at work here.

    The emotional meaning goes beyond the factual that many women CAN indeed pay and take care of themselves. Yes – and many men want to feel capable and able – with right to choose- so give them a chance!?

    Many of the women here have expressed it just fine. We will show our gratitude and ‘giving’ natures in other ways or when we do the inviting…..

    I think much of what is given and offered (and accepted) may have to do with whether we feel we have a ‘choice’ or not. It can all be negotiated with good communication.

    Not every woman or man has the same standards. (Culture is at play too)

    That said- I was asked and sought out by a 50+ year old man (from an online site) who arranged to meet inexpensivley for coffee and then did not even offer to buy me a cup. He showed no consideration while waiting on line, no inquiry as to whether I’d like desert with it or not, no helping to find comfortable seating for our conversation, no interest or regard as to my tastes at all.

    Needless to say-this was a clear sign to me that this was not a man to be interested in or bet on. ( In additon to the facts that he had never had a very long term relationship and still seemed attached to his mother – focused on only his own creative interests)

    IF I had invited him out or into my home, I would have offered to treat, and appreciated it if he picked up some of the tab or brought something as a sign of giving- sharing- acknowledgment. Good manners can help things along. I would hope for this from friends. Why not a potential companion?

    Another time one man and I agreed to meet for breakfast, also a relatively low ‘investment’. When he took a break and went to the bathroom (?) 2 checks showed up on the table. I assume he must have asked the waitress to divide the bill. As it was busy- I doubt she would have done this on her own, and especially as we seemed engaged like a couple in conversation. I took it as an immediate sign of his lack of interest and knew there was no go. His behavior certainly diminished my potential interest.

    For $5 I still think it would have shown some generosity and class for him to pick up my tab, even just for the time I took to come out and meet him , regardless of what the future would hold. I could have thanked him, offered to contribute anyway – or not. There still would have been time to say – “hey- nice talk- but don’t think we are a match” – but with some consideration and respect. This way he sort of sleezily slipped away without being direct- and I felt disregarded and taken advantage of and certainly he gained no respect from me. It was not the $5 I had to pay, it was the attitude, that led me to conclude “Cheap and Inconsiderate”. I felt more objectified and devalued since it seemed that as I was to be of no ‘use’ to him, I was not worth his time or even little money.

    There was no sense that this was done out of respect for women’s equality – What hogwash-

    Feminism is often used as an excuse now for men to put in little effort towards their continued effort to get booty. (And for some women to remain hard, in control, unforgiving, and distant in relationships).

    Feminism and the sexual revolution, and much of the 60′s values- – failed by allowing bad behavior to go unexcused. (See HAIR, Alice’s Restaurant) Believe me I lived through it. We learned the hard way that some of the old Rules evolved for GOOD reasons.

34. Nick 34

    If the old rules evolved for good reasons then please prove it by staying at home, and take care of laundry and wash my bedsheets while I bring home the bacon. Then you are justified to be treated. Put yourself in a man’s position. How the heck do we know, if the woman knows she will be treated that she is out for us, or for the food? Im not prepared to spend money like that on a total stranger. If she doesn’t want to see me unless I’m paying for her, then screw her, I don’t want a gold digger. If you say you are independent, then BE independent. And also guys who buy drinks for women in bars, you will never EVER get laid that way, they will drink your drink and leave. Don’t be a pussy.

35. Collins 35

    Nick thinks much like I do on this issue. (Is he a reader/listener of Marc Rudov, as am I?) I agree that the 1st few dates should be dutch, since at this point the parties are still strangers & screening each other. I also agree with Nick’s sentence, “[G]uys who buy drinks for women in bars, you will never EVER get laid that way…” A woman’s libido is activated by TALK, not money. (Of course, it’s gotta be talk other than pickup lines & cliches.) The likes of Elvis & the Beatles could, with their voices alone, sexually arouse millions of girls they didn’t even know, much less buy dinner for; in fact the GIRLS paid money to see THEM! Whatever dynamic is established during dating, will be the same dynamic that comes into play during divorce (assuming a r’ship gets as far as marriage in the 1st place, then ends in divorce in the 2nd place). I could go on & on, but if enough men would realize all this, we as a gender could gain respect, both among ourselves & from women, & the M-F r’ship dynamic would be a lot more balanced.

36. Sam 36

    I have another question for the women on this site . . .

    Let’s say you had a $40-$50 first date. If you offered to pay and your date refused to go 50-50, but said he would accept a $10 bill or let you pay the tip, would you think he was cheap? (assume that his income is merely above average, assume that you picked the restaurant yourself or you picked it out together.)

37. chiara 37

    Nick-
    I can’t help but wonder about one thing: if, you “never pay for dates, and … get laid plenty.” what are you doing on a blog called “Advice from a single dating expert?”. Surely you have a great system that works for you, and you need no pointers, right?

    What I look for the most in men is FLEXIBILITY. I like ones who are cool about paying or don’t mind going Dutch. Clearly anyone who lives intransigently by a rule against paying for women has a chip on his shoulder. I like to see a certain generosity of spirit. I like buying meals for my friends, so I expect a guy who likes me to do the same.

38. Francisco 38

    I don’t get the whole dinner thing for the first date anyway. I’d rather do something simple in order to get to know the woman by focusing on her and not on what we’re doing.

    Besides, in a world where men are expected to do the pursuing, unless he finds a woman where there’s mutual chemistry in a short amount of time, a guy can get into major financial trouble over the course of a year.

    If he goes out just three times a week and only spend $50 each time it adds up to almost $8000 a year which could equate to a year’s worth of car payments, rent or student loans. Add it up, you’d be shocked.

    The money could be considered well spent if you end up finding “the one” but how often after 3 or 4 dates it’s realized that the chemistry isn’t there and the each has to start over from square one, but each start over for a guy costs him around $200. Heaven forbid they go out more than 4 times.

    So I say stay away from the dinners, movies and concerts until after each of you determine that there’s enough chemistry that both are willing to put forth an effort which lasts more than just a couple of weeks. After that, why not show appreciation for each other? Why not take turns taking one another out be it out to a restaurant or one preparing dinner at home for the other; still better yet, together?

39. Rusty 39

    Wow, hot topic! It’s no wonder than most divorces happen because of financial troubles. Money represents quite a bit here, doesn’t it?

    The year: 2008.
    Equal Rights Amendment: Ratified.
    Womens’ salaries: Equal to (hopefully) or better then Mens’.
    Fairy Tale Romance: A Fairytale.

    -If I ask a woman on a date, I’ll pay. But I guarantee I won’t be stupid enough to set up a first date at a 5-star restaurant. And, I won’t ask too many women out too often so as to drain my bank account.

    -If she offers to help pay after a dinner, I will refuse or allow her to get the tip. I think thats fair. Sometimes I’ll let her grab desert later on. My experience is, that women like to be treated equal. If she is insistent, then Yes, I’ll let her pay whatever she is comfortable with.

    -If she asks me on a date, especially if its to a show or movie, I’ll let her pay. But, I will usually pay for some part of the evening whether she “lets” me or not.

    -If she is a single mom who is not independently wealthy then I will take into account the cost of a sitter and the effort that goes into creating time to be with me. Even if she asks me, I will more often than not pay for more than half, if not the whole thing. Again if she wants to pay I will let her get the tip or dessert, etc.

    -If the first date includes a woman asking me out or a woman wanting to go to three or four different places that require me to spend money without so much as an offer to pay anything, then that is our last date, if I don’t end the date early. She obviously has trouble with empathy.

    -Going Dutch is also perfectly acceptable at any time. After all, I am not trying to buy a woman’s affection and attention. I am trying to find out if our personalities match enough to continue seeing her and/or become exclusive with her. This can become an expensive endeavor in the dating potential matches phase.

    Its about mutual appreciation. There should never be any “money memory” going on. If money is tight, then make the date for one of the hundreds of things you can do with little or no money. Be creative. Its more fun and often more rewarding. My best and most fun dates have been when the woman planned an inexpensive but memorable date with me. We had wine while watching a meteor shower on a blanket with light from a large candle in a hurricane vase one time. My girlfriend surprised me and came to my work at lunch for a small picnic in the car. Some of my dates have hand-written or crafted thank you notes to me. The thoughtfulness of the action makes the time spent more valuable than a $50 dinner, a $100 show or a $2 cup of coffee.

    For the writer that talks about “being treated like a lady.”
    What makes you think you should be treated like a lady? What does being treated like a lady mean? Is there a book on being a lady and how I should treat her that I must have missed reading?
    Women also talk about “being treated like a Princess” and how much they appreciate it. Well, do you not think that a guy likes to be treated like a Prince? Does money factor into a woman treating a man like a Prince as it apparently does for being treated like a Princess?

    Post#14 cracked me up, mostly because a woman wrote it.
    Post#38 makes a lot of sense.

40. verbosity 40

    This thread brings up other sentiments in other threads (Women Who Make More than Men). However, I would like to point out some philosophical points and real-world ones. Keep in mind my points speak in generalities. There are of course exceptions to nearly every statement.

    If I understand Nick’s posts correctly, his POV is that since women can do everything men can do, they are hypocrites for expecting men to pay for everything in the dating arena. I think the unsaid message is, “If she can and/or does make the same as me, why do I have to shoulder the financial burden of dating? If you want equality, be equal. Don’t seek to have your cake in the career and other fronts and eat it too on the relationship end.”

    OK…Not the best turn of phrase, but I think it makes the point, which is that guys find it hypocritical that women can do everything men do (and earn more doing it – see http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0334472920070803 and http://www.forbes.com/ceonetwork/2006/05/12/women-wage-gap-cx_wf_0512earningmore.html) but still expect men to pick up the tab for everything as if it were 1946 and women did earn 1/10th what men earned.

    I also think many ladies made some terrific points. Portia mentioned making dinner (buying groceries and wine), others mentioned alternating picking up tabs, etc.

    Here is where the philosophical ideals crash into real world realities. I think Nick’s philosophy is that everything should be ‘dutch’ or equal given their equal work and often greater income. (Philosophy). However, the real world experience that most men have is that the VAST majority of women find this off-putting at best. Several posters above commented on this (Real World). So if Nick lives in accordance with his philosophy he will likely have far fewer relationship options as a result of this issue on the first date.

    The reverse also occurs. Women who kick back and expect men to do all of the paying for not only the first date, will likely reduce her relationship options.

    As a side note, I would note that many men have a very strong argument it is offensive that women insist men pay for everything, in that this practice values her companionship, personality looks, etc. as somehow worth more than his.

    The reality is that it is a pay to play game where men must pay up front to maximize their chances of success. It appears that many lady posters above do recognize some of the inequities above and act accordingly. Kudos. One can only hope that such a paradigm spreads, and that the challenges surrounding this issue diminish.

41. JuJu 41

    It amazes me how quickly societal norms change when biological evolution no longer happens. In the western world, it’s been at the most 150 years that women are even allowed to work, but look how quickly the perception changes.

    I’ve heard complaints from men that women are no longer feminine and nurturing, are “ruined by feminism”. To which I respond, “Perhaps they were always truly this way, it’s just the greater independence that allows them to be any which way they want now?” After all, I observe, women (for the most part) are subservient only until and unless their situation requires it.

    But it is a no less surprising outcome that men, as it turns out, aren’t exactly eager to take care of women (again, given hundreds of thousands of years of history, what could be responsible for the sudden shift in outlook? and if we are talking serious independence – I think women only had it for the past 25 years or so, tops).

    Well, there will come a point in your relationship (that is, if your goal is finding a life partner) when she will depend on you, regardless of whether you want it or not. That time will be during her pregnancy and after she gives birth. After all, not that many people earn as much as to have a year’s expenses worth of savings, or more.

    That is one of the many reasons, I am sure (at least unconsciously), women commonly reject the “cheap” man. If he puts up such a struggle paying for a mere date, what can she expect from him in the future? And most women do date for the possibility of a future, rather than purely having fun in the present.

    No, it doesn’t mean you should go broke trying to find love. Many points made above are valid, I won’t repeat them. Just use your common sense and intuition.

    I personally believe that while class may be an expensive trait, ultimately it pays off.

42. verbosity 42

    Juju’s points took the concept of paying of r the 1st date beyond the 1st date, but let’s take it further for discussion. Much of what I’m about to write is discussed more fully in another thread, so I’m copying much of what I wrote.

    JuJu wrote, ” . . . there will come a point in your relationship (that is, if your goal is finding a life partner) when she will depend on you, regardless of whether you want it or not. That time will be during her pregnancy and after she gives birth. After all, not that many people earn as much as to have a year’s expenses worth of savings, or more. That is one of the many reasons, I am sure (at least unconsciously), women commonly reject the “cheap” man. If he puts up such a struggle paying for a mere date, what can she expect from him in the future? And most women do date for the possibility of a future, rather than purely having fun in the present.”

    I am going to thrown a bunch of points out there right now, not to cast stones at women in general, but to reflect the context in which men make many of their dating and mating choices now.

    I may overstating things, but I believe Maureen Dowd wrote a NYT article some time ago about how women do not need men for anything, that men are in effect, obsolete. Secondly, as I noted above, women can, and do, earn more than men for the same work, so many men find the expectation for men to foot the whole bill hypocritical.

    However, a vast majority (74%) of American women say they would marry for money. http://biz.yahoo.com/wallstreet/071214/sb119760031991928727_id.html?.v=1 To be fair, plenty of men polled said they would also, but significantly few #’s than women. this is also borne out by most men’s personal experience. JuJu alluded to reasons for looking at men’s income and generosity (pregnancy and birth).

    There are also other reasons women want men who make substantially more so that women have options (have kids, not have kids, stay home, pursue additional education, etc.) Many men feel women ignore this fundamental imbalance – that women, no matter what they earn, see having these options as their right (via men who earn more), but that men have no such option, it is simply their job to earn. I grant there are exceptions, but they are so few & far between so as not to be mentionable. The simple point is that we as men are just to earn so she has options.

    I actually had this conversation with my mother recently when she questioned why I do not want to marry. When I made my point about how I have no options but that women do (see above), she said “That’s what you’re supposed to do as a man.” (Yes, even she knows the deck’s stacked in her favor.) I said, “Mom, they banned indentured servitude 200-plus years ago. It seems a better option for me to keep my freedom and options.” Her response, “Well, I don’t want to argue about this anymore.”

    Lastly, one cannot discount the divorce rate and the effect of divorce laws. Women initiate divorces about 70% of the time (See AARP and Discovery Health). Further, depending on where you live, the divorce rate exceeds 50% in most highly populus places (esp. ‘no-fault’ states). In AZ, it was 65% in 2005 (See cdc.gov). CA, the 800 pound gorilla in terms of population (and who do not report divorce stats to Census), is very high:

    Year, CA Div.,L.A. Div.,CA Mar.,Divorce %
    1996 169,416 38,026 219,039 77.35%
    1997 165,547 37,501 237,669 69.65%
    1998 161,905 35,706 194,108 83.41%
    2000 156,078 36,551 196,896 79.27%
    2001 154,672 38,850 224,241 68.98%
    2002 160,854 40,468 217,880 73.83%
    2003 148,511 38,811 194,914 76.19%

    Average Divorce Rate: 75.54%** (Reference: Court Statistics Reports for 1996-2004.)

    I’m not going to comment on divorce laws and how they operate to divide property. That is a definite subject of another thread Evan may start if he wished. Is does exist, though.

    What I try to show by the above points is the context within men are making their dating choices. Many women and men are told by major publications (NYT) that men are unnecessary. (Except to pay for the dating/mating) Women can and often do earn more than men (see above). JuJu herself mentioned that in seeking men who earn more (and are generous with it) women have more options than men. Depending on where you live, the divorce rate far exceeds 50%, with 70% of those divorces (and, by proxy, long term relationships) initiated by women.

    Is it any wonder that increasing numbers of men chafe at paying nearly everything in the dating/mating dance? From day 1, men have to pay to date. JuJu noted that women want men who will give them options regarding children (and my addition of other options). Men have no options there (generally). They must work for her options. Women seek men who make more money than they. Then, once married and legally entitled to 1/2 of his income and property, they initiate divorce 70% of the time. And then men pay in the end. (I grant there are exceptions, but they are so few in number, so as not to merit mention.)

    I do not say this by way of complaint. I do, however, notice that the vast majority of women who have posted on this site and in my travels in general, have zero sympathy or empathy and absolutely no acknowledgment of the points’ validity for men or their point of view on this matter. I think Nick’s posts illustrate this (Nick, correct me if I am mistaken). Others say it is a lack of respect as well.

    We are individually responsible for our dating choices. I simply express my opinion that I hope more men remember this context and act accordingly in their own best interests. Hoping women will respect their situation is folly.

43. JuJu 43

    Verbosity:

    First of all, I think the egregious sense of entitlement you describe is uncommon. (Would other women weigh in?)

    Secondly, I was only implying that women are the only ones capable of giving birth.

    You have to take some basic physiology into account when assessing the “equality” of the sexes.

    I personally prefer the generous men because I myself am generous (and also sometimes suffer for it, albeit in different ways than paying for dates). It’s a non-negotiable personality trait in a partner, for *me*. Nothing to do with some perceived personal gain down the road. At the time of the first date, I certainly don’t even think that far ahead. But I wouldn’t be able to tolerate a cheapskate at that moment.

    What I really want is the magnanimity of spirit.

    On a slightly different note, has is ever occurred to you, any of you, that being ever so on guard against being used (or any potential pain, for that matter) robs you of the pleasure of life?

44. verbosity 44

    JuJu,

    With all due respect, you have said nothing whatsoever that refutes what I posted. I specifically cited surveys and articles to support my conclusions. I do not describe an egregious sense of entitlement, simply the state of things. Perhaps the sense of entitlement DOES exist, based upon the evidence. Ignoring it does not mean it does not exist. Assuming it does exist, based upon the non-refuted evidence, why not acknowledge it?

    Additionally, regarding the physiology difference, so what? I know this sounds cold, but but it does nothing to refute my point about women’s options.

    I understand your desire for magnanimity of spirit. I do not disagree with it. However, my main point is that, given the above unrefuted evidence, it is accurate to say that the ‘playing field,’ the ‘rules,’ and the ‘other team’ do not equate to an even game for men in general, let alone one that favors them. Again, I ask why not acknowledge this, particularly when no contrary evidence is offered.

    Lastly, your last paragraph tries to insinuate that I am ‘ever so on guard’ against being used. Hmmm, let’s look at that. First, it is an ad hominem attack against me and anyone who agrees withe the analysis (ie. – shoot the messenger) that tries to portray me as irrational and unreasonable absent any fact.

    Secondly, it infers I am a coward (by being ‘ever so on guard’) In doing so she essentially tells me and others who have the same opinion they have an irrational fear of dealing with women. There is a difference between courage and and stupidity. And blindly playing a game that looks like it is financially stacked against men in general would fall into the stupidity category. Furthermore, in taking any risky action (such as dating and marrying), a reasonable person take only calculated risks. In taking these calculated risks, you weigh costs and benefits, and in doing so, many men are finding out that many (arguably most) women fail a cost-benefit analysis.

45. angelique 45

    verbosity…

    I am just curious: are you here to obtain relationship advice, or to advance your amateur sociological theories?

46. verbosity 46

    Angelique,

    Curious how you fail to respond to anything I said…Another attempt to ‘shoot the messanger’ and ignore the message.

47. DeAngelo 47

    Well the man should pay for the first few,I would say a 3 atlease. But the see the issue comes in after that if she’s not willing to offer nor is she making you dinner on a regular basis. If thats not happening, that means that she is becoming complecent off the mans finances. And if you are NOT married yet,then the woman should be offsetting some of the cost after that 3rd date because he has to pay bills as well is she do. In todays society its really not a case if the woman got the money or not, its just a man showing his gentleman like ways. I dont mind paying, but if we arent married then we will definitly be splitting the cost after the 3rd date because my wife seems more of a guaranteed investment than someone ‘m just meeting. At lease I know if I am puttin goney into my wife, one way or another I will be getting back also me and my life live inthe same household so she helps me pay bills that I accumulate too. The whole point here is reciprocation. If a man pays for your dinnerthe first few times, cook him dinner or some way show your gratitude by showing him that it was appreciated, dont just let him keep paying thinking that yo uhave a meal ticket. He has bills and responsibilities too that I’m sure no contributions will be made to on your behalf. Also dont be one o fthose women that makes a big deal out of it because all that does is pit it in our minds that you may be a golddigger and or you are very selfish. In Biblical terms”God loves a cheerful giver”,it didnt say a cheerful man giver or a cherrful woman giver,people is what its saying. Some women look at the whole what he pays for as a rescue trap, thinking that he’s proving that he can take care of you. But let me tell you something, he probably can but no man wants a woman that just want to be taken care of just off of normal circumstances. We want to know what can she bring to the table too. I feel that way because if a woman starts being the way and then if I so happen to no thave enough or I’m not financially set, she may start looking towards a richer guy and here it is I have already been used. she exhausted me to go to the next guy. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Dont want one of those women who just take men on a test drive to see how many times and how much a man is going to spend on her. But if that woman always coking dinner for you,then yes she desrves to have her dinner paid for. Another bad thing to do is keeping tabs on who paid for what. Thats why after those first few dates they should take turns.

48. Alexander Stone 48

    The issue of ‘who pays for a first date?’ has NOTHING to do with the actual money involved, it is all about finding out whether the person you are with (both the guy AND the girl) has any manners. As a guy, if you are expecting a woman to pay for anything on a first date, you are a dick, especially if you were the one who invited her out (and if you are expecting ‘something in return’ because you paid, you are an even bigger dick). That being said, however, I DO want to know that the woman I am out with appreciated my gesture, and is not a ‘professional dater’ that never had any real interest in me and was only out for free food/entertainment at my expense because she had nothing better to do that night. So I will certainly be paying attention to whether you at least make an offer to pay, as well as the sincerity of your “thank you.” There are FAR too many great women out there for any guy to have to waste their time with someone that has a bad attitude.

49. Eda 49

    Alexander,

    Thank you for saying that lots of great women exist. It’s nice to read a post from a man who has something positive to say about women.

50. A-L 50

    Most of my first dates are quite inexpensive (coffee dates) and I’ll usually let the guy pick it up, but if I got there early then I’ll go on ahead and by my own drink. And regardless of which # date I’m on, I always say thank you, and offer to pay, and frequently cook dinner for a guy I’m seeing (sometimes as early as the 2nd date).

    But one thing that hasn’t been commented on yet is about men who continue to pick up the tabs when they aren’t well-to-do. When I’ve gone out with men whose salaries are less than stellar, but they continue to insist on paying for the entirety of our dates, I begin to wonder about their finances. Since I’m a big fan of saving money for a rainy day (not to say that I don’t spend money, as I do, but I am fiscally conservative) I worry that the man is more of a spendthrift, who probably has high debt and/or no money in the bank. And that is a turnoff. Not because I need someone to support me, but because if I’m interested in a long-term future then I’ll want to build a savings cushion, nice retirement, etc, and if the money is constantly going out every month, that’s not going to happen. Just a different perspective on this whole “who pays” issue.

51. Collins 51

    A-L wrote: “Since I’m a big fan of saving money for a rainy day . . . I worry that the man [who always pays on dates] is more of a spendthrift, who probably has high debt and/or no money in the bank. And that is a turnoff”

    Excellent point, A-L. This backs up my belief that always paying on dates can bankrupt a man, if not instill in him a false sense of owning you like some object. Like the title of one of my own blogs says, “Buying a woman dinner does not equal respect.”

    And I like the idea of 1st dates being for coffee. Like businesses, dates should start small, then grow gradually as the parties get to know each other better. I like your idea of buying your own drink if you arrive 1st, then sipping it while you wait for the guy to arrive. Of course that can go both ways; I would most likely sip my own drink also while waiting for the gal to arrive. Once she does arrive, what she does (or doesn’t do) next could be a good indicator of her views on who pays, & on gender equality in general. Of course, coffee shops also have other goodies like muffins & croissants, so I might try buying drinks for both of us, & if she offers later to buy dessert for both of us, I’d accept in a heartbeat (or if she doesn’t I could do without dessert). Even when not saying so outright, we (of both genders) test our dates for signs that they care enough about us to make us feel special.

    It may have made sense for the guy always to pay in days long gone, but in this era of equality it does not.

52. Angela Crisp 52

    This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I do love a generous man, but I seek generosity on many levels mostly emotional and supportive, an understanding sort of generosity. My solution has been to discuss who pays before we set a date to go out. One way I have of overriding the “gentlemen ethic” is to suggest that if he is driving further, I should treat, if I am driving further, he should treat, regardless of how we come up with where to go. Gas and time is money, so it helps to get a guy to relax and actually enjoy the evening. I think women should pick up more often then they do, but figuring out a way to do this without making a man feel “kept” is really quite difficult, but worth it too.

53. hunter 53

    to Angela crisp,

    you said,..”figuring out a way to do this without making a man feel kept”, how so? Please forgive us simple minds…

54. Lisa 54

    Just a couple of items for Verbosity and Rusty:

    It’s 2008 and, FYI, the Equal Rights Amendment WAS NEVER RATIFIED. It is regularly reintroduced in Congress and never goes anywhere.

    Second, don’t delude yourself: the wage gap between men and women persists. Furthermore, many (if not most) women earn less than their male counterparts over a lifetime, partly because of the wage gap and partly because women often stay home, go part time, or put themselves on the “mommy track” once the children arrive. Women receive NO SSI CREDIT for the years they stay home, or accept reduced salaries, to accommodate their families (and their husband’s career). This means that women are far less likely than men to reach retirement age and be completely underfunded.

    Boys, if you want to slap down the women, you should get your facts right.

55. vino 55

    Um, Lisa, I just read this, and I have to tell you, I think you are off with your assertions. By the way, I notice you cited no facts.

    Respectfully, from what I’ve read, there isn’t a wage gap. If employers could pay women 23% less (the approx ‘gap’), then no men would be employed at all! You yourself cited the reasons for the ‘wage gap.’ Women often stay home, BY CHOICE. They work part-time BY CHOICE. Take the “mommy track” as you put it, BY CHOICE. You also left out that women often do not take many dangerous, higher paying jobs (think mining, oil rigs, etc), BY CHOICE. So by your admission women in the aggregate CHOOSE to be paid less. This is somehow someone else’s fault other than those who CHOSE said course of action? Puh-leeze.

    I think verbosity pointed out a study or 2 indicating that there is equal pay for equal work & that in fact many women earn more than men for comparable work in metropolitan areas, particularly. You may not want to acknowledge said facts & studies, but ignoring them doesn’t refute them, particularly if you are chiding someone about ‘facts.’

    Um, sorry to further disagree, but women who do stay home ARE compensated. Who’s paying for the roof over their heads, the food consumed, the clothes worn, the cars driven, the gas for the cars, the home utilities, the cell phones, etc? They don’t materialize out of thin air.

    Of course no SSI credit is received for the time when someone CHOOSES not to work or work less. Or am I to understand you want to be compensated further for not working?

    If one CHOOSES to leave a job, any job, for a lesser-paying one, part-time or not to work at all, no matter what the reason (kids), it is not the responsibility of anyone else to foot the bill for or provide comforts for the person CHOOSING to work less. It’s called accepting responsibility for the consequences of one’s decision-making.

    But what Lisa’s argument boils down to is that she wants someone else to pay for her choices.

    On the subject of equal legal rights, I’m unaware of any legal rights men have that women don’t. However, I am aware of rights women have that men don’t. Women have the right to choose to make a guy a parent even if he doesn’t wish to be one (& the legal & financial responsibilities that go with it). Notice men have no corresponding legal right to force a women to have a child (& the legal & financial responsibilities that go with it). There are other things I could bring up as well, such as VAWA. but suffice it to say, women actually have MORE legal rights than men. So I think the ERA assertion is attenuated at best, and completely inapplicable at worst.

56. Rusty 56

    Hey Lisa…
    Guess you got me there. Thank you for your item.
    And nice job on the weak attack by using the novice “boys” disparagement. I think you’re the only one trying to slap anybody down. So this is the wonderful sight-unseen attitude for which a man should plunk his money down on a first date? No thanks.
    Vive la difference!

57. Lisa 57

    Hmm, Vino, let me see if I get your arguments correct:

    1) The wage gap exists because otherwise no men would be employed (wow, gotta love the logic on this one). We have to pay women less so we can pay men a salary that can support a family (never mind that many women are single parents, and if you think child support equals out the income differences, you have another big think coming).

    2) Women are “compensated” for their sacrifices to the family by having a roof over their heads.

    3) Women (and men) who choose to stay home and contribute to society by rearing their children and doing the bulk of volunteer work for churches, schools, Meals on Wheels, and other social institutions deserve nothing back from society (i.e., SSI) when they reach their golden years. If you never “worked” a day in your life, you get nothing, simple as that. Lucky you. I guess your warm memories will sustain you the next time you eat cat food casserole in the house you can’t afford to heat because you never “worked” to contribute to the social good.

    You might be surprised to note that many countries do provide extended parenting leave with pay (to both sexes), and give credit toward retirement for those who are primary caregivers in the home. Those societies rank far above the US on many quality of life indicators. (If you REALLY want some citations, I’m happy to give them to you. I’m a university professor so I do understand their importance. Which citation style would you prefer? APA? Chicago? MLA? Just let me know.)

    Don’t be disingenuous by suggesting that women “choose” these things by themselves, in a vacuum. Common sense often “validates” a lot of stupid opinions. Ask Thomas Paine.

    I do think the 2nd wave of the women’s movement was off-base to push for equal treatment. What men and women need is EQUITABLE treatment, which is what many posters on this thread were suggesting. If you’re unsure of the difference, I can explain it further.

    If you’re worried about being trapped into unplanned fatherhood, there are many solutions for that. Use your CHOICES ahead of time.

    BTW, I never said I supported the ERA. I merely corrected Rusty’s facts and challenged your argument. You drew that inference.

    And Rusty, I never said anything about the idea that a man should pay on the first date. I just said that you ought to check your facts before blowing hot air at the rest of us.

58. hunter 58

    Lisa, a university professor?….my goodness…..

59. Lisa 59

    hunter, you’re right. I lost my humility and that was a cheap shot. I just didn’t like being lectured about the importance of citations. Pushed the wrong buttons. My bad.

60. Rusty 60

    Wow Lisa, you’re just too ‘smart’ for all of us. I was actually referencing the title of this post, not inferring that you had said anything about it. Although, maybe you should stay on topic, eh? Thank you for enlightening the dark hordes with you university professor skillz. (Yeah, I spelled that wrong on purpose, Prof.) So, do your wrong buttons include a giant RED one that says ‘PUSH ME’?
    Yes, I already know I’m a bastard. But thanks anyway.

61. vino 61

    Lisa,

    Talk about disingenuous arguments.

    1) You obviously do not understand what I said, simple economics, or how businesses work. Your assertion that “the wage gap exists because otherwise no men would be employed (wow, gotta love the logic on this one). We have to pay women less so we can pay men a salary that can support a family” is without basis in fact. Please cite (meaning “refer to”) to something supporting such a conclusion. Here are a few…

    http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.270
    http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true
    http://warrenfarrell.com/articles.php?id=12
    http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/
    http://www.econlib.org/Library/Enc/ComparableWorth.html

    “2) Women are “compensated” for their sacrifices to the family by having a roof over their heads.”
    - Holy martyrdom, Batman. Please put victim card down, and step away from the Kool-aid. Yes, they are compensated for their CHOICES. They are receiving 1/2 of what hubby earns while married by law. It’s imputed to her. You may choose to ignore this little not-so-small fact, but it exists. Also, since she’s not working, if she chooses to divorce, she’ll almost certainly get alimony which is considered income (it’s taxable). Funny how child support is often clamored for so much more, because it’s not taxable…

    “3) Women (and men) who choose to stay home and contribute to society by rearing their children and doing the bulk of volunteer work for churches, schools, Meals on Wheels, and other social institutions deserve nothing back from society (i.e., SSI) when they reach their golden years. If you never “worked” a day in your life, you get nothing, simple as that.”

    - Um, no. That’s not how it works. As mentioned, they are already compensated (see above). Assuming they stay married the whole time they are entitled to Soc Sec benefits via hubby. If they divorce, which is more likely, they get a % of his Soc Sec benefits, based upon what was paid in during marriage. So either way they get Soc Sec benefits. Also, if you receive ‘compensation’ for volunteer work it’s not volunteering, is it? It’s called income (& taxable). Who will pay for that, by the way? Certainly not the nonprofit.

    “You might be surprised to note that many countries do provide extended parenting leave with pay (to both sexes), and give credit toward retirement for those who are primary caregivers in the home. Those societies rank far above the US on many quality of life indicators.”

    - It’s easier to have welfare (which we have also, btw) in those countries with 15 million people, not what (350 million?) is it now in the US. Not to mention it’s theft – taking what I earn and giving it to someone else who didn’t (who’s already earning money by law – 1/2 of hubby’s). As noted above, women do get Soc Sec benefits by law. Also there’s the matter of FMLA which provides 3 months of family leave (puts a big burden on small-mid sized businesses).

    And if it wasn’t clear, ‘cited’ as used meant “referred to” a fact – not a citation style.

62. Agreeing 62

    I think that it is hard in this day and age to choose who pays. I was reading last week about who should pay in a situation like this. I think it’s helpful to see what other people think because times have changed. It’s also important to feel out what your date thinks. I’m still old fashioned thinking the men should pay, but I also think that men aren’t always the ones making the most money these days. The roles have changed from the past. It’s basically a crapshoot!

63. Norm 63

    Let there be no doubt: the prevailing societal custom, and the dominant expectation among women, is that the man pays, regardless of who invited whom, regardless of ability to pay, regardless of who selected the venue, even on a blind date and even on a first online date. This custom is sexist, pure & simple, but most women I know, including a goodly number of otherwise self-aware, self-proclaimed feminists, stridently insist upon it. As a general sociological law, wherever there is opportunity for exploitation & profit, there is no shortage of those who will seize that opportunity and who will invent transparently bogus justifications for their doing so. The phenomenon of dating is no exception. A very intelligent and fair-minded female friend told me that some of her female friends (she used the plural) confessed that they will sometimes accept an online date solely for the free meal, fully intending never to go on a second date with the benighted suppliant. Both will survive the experience, but she has wronged him.

    If A and B don’t know each other and both want to get to know each other, it is all well and good if one genuinely wants to pay for the other, but neither should be expected to do so based on the accident of one’s reproductive orientation. If the dating continues and a relationship blossoms, some fair & equitable arrangement should be agreed to, taking income and expenses into account. If A wants to get to know B better but B does not particularly want to get to know A, then B should either not accept the proposed date or pay for him/herself, or else candidly negotiate with A “I have no romantic inclinations toward you, but if you’ll pay my way I’ll go on a platonic date with you.” All relationships should be structured fairly and equitably. Few are.

64. Norm 64

    kenley,

    Agreed. But your response does not address the topic of this discussion: Who pays for the first date. Your response addresses an entirely different scenario from the one I posed–unless it is your view that whenever a man asks a woman for a date, he has no genuine romantic feelings toward her, is interested only in a one-night stand, and therefore he should pay for the date. Such extreme cynicism is clearly unwarranted. Even if B has been wronged by someone previously, that is no justification or excuse for him/her to exploit someone else’s romantic interest.

65. hunter 65

    Honesty, respect, caring? Any room for a woman’s feelings/emotions?

66. kenley 66

    Moderator, I had a few serious typos on my first post. Please use this one instead. Thanks!

    Norm,

    I decided to go beyond commenting on who should pay because I think opinions on that topic have been exhausted. There’s really nothing left to say. I chose to counter your point that women should step up and be honest with men when they go on dates with the point that men should step up be honest with women when they go on dates. But the fact of the matter is no matter how much you or I or anyone else on this blog wishes it were otherwise, men AND women will screw each other both figuratively and literally when it comes to dating. They always have and they always will. It’s completely unproductive for any of us (including me) to whine about what others should and shouldn’t do. As Evan tells us all the time, the only thing that any of us should concern ourselves with is what we can control. And, the only thing we can control is how we ourselves behave when dating. So, I am now taking a vow to stop complaining about what men do and to just focus on what I can do.

67. kittypurrrr 67

    This was most interesting and rather fun. It certainly shows that we are all different and Vive La Difference!

    I love the dynamics of the first dates because it adds to the excitement. Will he be romantic, will he be open and honest, will he offer to pay, will he take me somewhere expensive then expect me to pay half, will he buy champange and ask me to pay, will we have coffee and he make me share that meagre bill, will he ask me to choose a venue and then make me pay, is he just plain cheap, or is he truly unable to be more lavish. (will he touch my hand, kiss me good night is more important but off topic)

    We all were brought up differently and our parents and other adults and the scietal norms times have shaped our habits and views of the world. My mother was subservient and adored, literally, my father. He treated her with disdain and I vowed never to be treated that way, not even for love.

    I search for more balance, heart, honesty, chivalry, time and insist on it. I have a great income and have owned my own home since I was very young. There IS such a thing as gold digging men… who are lazy and expectant and will relish taking rather then giving, just as there are women.

    Back to the subject… the first date should be one you can afford and take the cheque… the second date you should be honest if you wish for Dutch, this is a time of financial turmoil and females do have to be understanding or be literally considered uncaring gold diggers. Dating is expensive. but doesn’t always have to be.

    If two people really like each other they should be discussing all of this at least by the third date rather then be expectant. Generosity of the heart and of one’s time and effort should be more important then who pays. I adore for the honesty, not that he paid… Balance (not just bank balance) and communication make for happier dates and more likelihood of finding the right person.

    (Unless you are Nick and all you look for is to be laid)

    38 was right on… get real ladies.

68. kittypurrrr 68

    May I add that men who expect a female to pay after meeting her in an expensive restaurant are delusional. May I also hint that you take her to an affordable place with light fare.

    A female who is trying to impress you will want to be looking in your eyes to see if her reflection is there and your pupils widen as you gaze upon her, not gorging on an expensive dinner.

    Nuff said and I really wanted to be number 69, heheh

69. Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 69

    This is one of my favorite dating topics! Do I believe in equality? Yes! But dating is not about equality. Relationships can be, but not dating. Dating is still an archaic mating ritual based on biology more than you think.

    As a dating coach for the over 40 crowd, I tell my women clients not to even offer on the first two dates. If the guy wants to split the check – he’ll let her know or the check will sit there for an hour. There won’t be any guess work.

    Of course a woman will start to contribute, but first, it works best to see what the man will do. Dating is about “data gathering” collecting important information about each other to see if there’s a match.

    As a women, it’s best to let the man lead and then watch what he does. It’s not a test – its just a sorting mechanism. If you jump in, pay, call and ask men out, you’ll never know what he would have done on his own to win you over. And you’ll never know if he is really interested.

    Regardless of how progressive we are and how feminism has settled in, most men like to think dating is their idea and want to be in charge. As we move into relationship stages, things naturally balance out. This is true of even college guys as reported by Dr. Fischer in the Marriage Project at Rutgers University. We’d like to think equality has really set in – but it hasn’t changed in dating yet.

    The long and short of it is, let the man pay on the first two dates, then women can start to offer and or pay. But splitting the check is not a great idea – take turns instead. It’s much better and ends up in less quibbling later.
    .-= Ronnie Ann Ryan – The Dating Coach´s last blog ..Dating after Divorce: Beware the Wounded Heart =-.

70. Karl R 70

    Ronnie Ann Ryan said:
    “If you jump in, pay, call and ask men out, you’ll never know what he would have done on his own to win you over. And you’ll never know if he’s really interested.”

    I’m not really sure that this gets you the information that you’re seeking. It’s an unwritten rule that men pay on a first date … so I pay on a first date. That’s what I’ve done even when I had no intention of ever seeing the woman again in my life.

    He pays = he understands and accepts the rules.

    I don’t think you can read a whole lot more into it than that.

71. hunter 71

    Sure, men call, pay, etc., but don’t therapists say there are more women operating off their masculine side? And that it really doesn’t matter who is the man in the relationship?

72. vino 72

    RAR said:

    “If you jump in, pay, call and ask men out, you’ll never know what he would have done on his own to win you over. And you’ll never know if he is really interested.”

    Ummm, what does SHE do to ‘win him over’ besides just showing up?

    “Regardless of how progressive we are and how feminism has settled in, most men like to think dating is their idea and want to be in charge. As we move into relationship stages, things naturally balance out.”

    How is that? If I get a new dog and let him on the furniture immediately, he’ll expect that is the norm. And, more importantly, it’s far harder to break him of it once that patter has been established. In other words, I’ve rarely seen where it ‘balances out.’

73. jane 73

    More often than not I have experienced the “let’s hang out” or “maybe we can meet up,” which is annoyingly vague. I never assume the other person will pay. I always pull out my money, always have, probably always will. What I don’t like is the ambiguity that so many men create in the asking. Maybe they’re protecting themselves from being rejected. But it is just impolite to suggest going out and creating unnecessary awkwardness over this issue. The few times in my life (I’m 44) that a guy has said “I’d like to take you out,” making it clear who pays, I’ve nearly fallen over. Pick an inexpensive place. Make it just coffee. Whatever. It isn’t about the money. It’s common courtesy. I like the policy that whoever does the asking pays. Simple as that.

74. Kurt S. 74

    I noticed that many of the commenters think that a woman shouldn’t pursue or ask out a man because the man might not commit or be that interested in them.  That is true.  However, how is this any different from when a man asks out a woman – men rarely have a reliable way of determining whether a woman really likes them or is just using them for free entertainment.  Women probably just don’t want to pursue men because they feel uncomfortable actually having to exert some effort instead of getting to sit back and let everything be handed to them.  This mentality is probably why a lot of women end up with men whom they don’t love or truly want simply because they settled for the men who aggressively pursued them, losing more suitable men to more aggressive men.

75. Marquis 75

    Realistically, shouldn’t women be the ones to pay for first dates?

    The simple logic here being that:
    - Women usually like to date up (as in date a man that is as desirable or more so than she is relatively)
    - Women usually are the ones who like to do ‘dates’ (whereas men are often fine with ‘hanging out’ in a low-key, down low setting)

    When you think about it- women want relationships (more than men in general), ‘dating’ is the typical start on the relationship path (as contrasted with say just bootycall sex or ‘hangin out’). So if women want a relationship with a desirable man, it’d make sense that they’d be paying for them.

    And the honest truth at least in my case is that women always pay for the date for me, or else there is no date. Women want to go out and be seen in public and spend money and drink wine etc.. – NOT ME!! . Why am I gonna pay for doing that extra stuff I don’t even want when the women are willing to hang out and have sex and nothing else even easier? Doesn’t make much sense.

76. Evan Marc Katz 76

    Wow, Marquis! Great advice! You must do really well with women! You’re gonna make some damaged girl with no self-esteem very happy one day!

77. Marquis 77

    It’d be far more logical an assertion that ‘men should probably pay for the sex’ with a woman (whatever that entails in a typical social context). Since men typically desire casual sex far more than women. However, we’re talking about dating; and “dating” is more often equated with relationships than casual sex. Women want to date. Men don’t get as much out of dating as women. So what logical sense would it make at all for men to be the ones paying? Men shouldn’t even feel any desire to pay to go on a date with a woman (the exception here being the situation where a man dates a woman far above him in relative desirability- whereby the only way he’d likely get a bit of her time is to pay for it during a date).   
    Look at the situation presented in comment #32 by Livvy: she talks of a date she netted while being a university student with an incredibly handsome rising business professional in a fancy restaurant in London. Think about this androgynously: wouldn’t it be compliment enough that a university student even get the opportunity to go out with a person who was superficially such a great relationship ‘catch’ (assuming that this student was looking foremost for a relationship)?  ..Of course not, right!?? Because this dream come true of a date should also pay for the student’s time as well.     -Notice how silly that sounds? That a celebrity would pay to go out with a some random average shop-keep. That a truly desirable catch would be EXPECTED to pay for someone who would realistically be happy enough to get the chance alone.
    “You know what, Brad Pitt, you’re a great catch now that you’re single, and i’ve been attracted to you for years and have dreamed of this opportunity for who knows how long- BUT, i’d truly only be able to have a horrible time unless you agree beforehand to foot the bill.”

78. Karl R 78

    Marquis, (#76 & #78)
    You believe it’s illogical for men to pay for first dates.
    You’re not into dating.
    You’re not into relationships.
    You think it’s logical for men to pay for sex.

    Save yourself some time. Hire a hooker. She’ll gladly take your money in exchange for sex. She won’t want to go on dates. She won’t want a relationship.

    However, this website is not designed to facilitate that activity. You might try Craigslist instead.

    On a more theoretical level:
    
    You’re trying to apply logic and economics to dating and relationships. Relationships are inherently emotional, so they don’t follow strictly logical rules.

    Instead of being logical, try being pragmatic: Do whatever works. And in the case of first dates, that usually means the man pays for the date.

79. Ruby 79

    Marquis #78
     
    I didn’t realize that Brad was about to dump Angie and the kids for “some random average shop-keep”. But something tells me that if he did decide to pursue a woman like this, he’d still foot the bill on their first date, don’t you think?
     
    As far as Livy’s situation is concerned, asking a poor student out, choosing an expensive restaurant, and then handing her the check is the height of rudeness. If you don’t feel that the person is a “desirable” date, why ask them out in the first place? And what’s so special about a man who is arrogant and cheap?

80. Katarina Phang 80

    Nick #34, YIKES!!!
     
    I got tons of invites for dinner dates and some got really offended because I didn’t jump on first offers because I was too busy.  Seriously, you must be joking to think that many women will use guys just for their meal tickets.  Where do you find your dates, usually?  Do you screen?  Do they have a life?
     
    Many of us are juggling so much, unless we’re really interested and see potential in you guys, we’d rather stay home and eat the leftovers.
     
    Gold diggers are after much more than just a free modest dinner worth $40 or less.  It’s not worth our time!  (shaking my head).  What a loser any guy who thinks that way.

81. Gem 81

    The men I date pay for all the dates, not just the first.

    I reciprocate sometimes getting the tip (if they even allow that – most don’t), but mostly I “Pay” my share by offering dates in my home where I cook a nice dinner, serve the drinks and have a movie rented or something. Or suprise them with tickets to a local event or concert…

    It’s never been an issue – I attract “old-school” gentleman types who wouldn’t have it any other way. I’m in my early 40s btw, dating men in their 40s. There are many gentleman out there who feel this way.

    I think it separates the men from the boys, actually.

82. Cat 82

    Generally, the person who invites you out pays.

    In fact, when it’s two men on a date, that’s usually how they handle it, as far as I can tell from my gay friends. They don’t say, “oh, we’re men, we’ll just split it.” (And lesbians don’t sneak out of the restaurant without paying because they’re both women and women don’t pay!)

    Great example is Gem, #81. When a guy invites her out, he pays. When she invites him to her home for dinner and a movie, she pays. If you don’t cook, you could buy tickets to a concert or treat the other person to something else they’d be interested in. Maybe take a cooking or dance class together!

    When I was younger, I was uncomfortable with my date paying–I’d usually insist on splitting the bill. That rarely went over well. Men almost always took it as a signal that I wasn’t interested in them. Sometimes they’d even start an argument about it right in the restaurant.

    Now that I’m older, and well versed in dating, I don’t mind letting a guy pay for a date, because I do like Evan says, I make it the best date possible. The guy has a great companion for the evening with witty conversation and someone who takes a genuine interest in him. I offer to pay based on the situation. I totally get what Evan says about the “fake reach.” But I’m not a big fan of faking it!

    If the man is wealthy (and not cheap,) he expects to pay. If they guy is struggling (which is pretty common these days!) I will offer to split it (without faking.) If he still insists on paying, I pick up the drinks or buy him something the next time. After we’ve been dating long enough, I’ll cook for him.

    What’s most important is showing appreciation and trying to keep some balance. For every couple of dates that a guy pays for, you should be doing something thoughtful for him as well. It goes without saying that you’re following Evan’s advice and being the best date you can be, every time!

83. Selena 83

    @Gem #81
    “I think it separates the men from the boys, actually.”

    I couldn’t agree more.  I’m older now and date older men, but I found this true even when I was in my 20′s.  I ‘get’ that some men don’t like paying, particularly all the time, but those who do without making a fuss about it definetly have a edge over those who won’t or whine about it. Men paying for dates is what GROWNUPS do.

    Not all dates have to be expensive though – cooking at home, going to a party, going to free or low cost events, lunch or happy hour instead of dinner are all alternatives especially in the early dating days when you’re just getting to know each other. And unless you are well off, you will be doing those types of things as an established couple anyway. Especially after you have kids.

84. Michael17 84

    Well, I am picking up a sense of entitlement from some of the women on here. The “princess mentality” is a turn-off. I think that as a guy, I should pay for the “main course” of the date, but I appreciate it when a woman at least *offers*, and then when I insist on paying, that she shows gratitude. In other words, she *doesn’t expect* it, but she *appreciates* it.
     
     
    That said, I make it a point to make first dates fairly inexpensive–dinner at a place where the entries are around $10 maybe. And I suggest coffee after dinner, where *she* pays for that.
     
     
    I’m not really buying the “I’ll help pay for the second date” concept either. Most first dates don’t lead to seconds, and I would say that women are usually the ones who decide there won’t be a second date. I like to know that even at the very beginning, that she is investing something in seeing whether this can work or not.
     
     
    And no, I don’t buy the women’s argument that the expenses they pay to look nice “count”. Just as some of the things we do to try to impress you–the flashy wardrobe (what you think we’d by Brooks Brothers if the planet were all dudes?), the nice car, that we cleaned our place up, don’t “count” for us.
     
     
    I guess it is a subtle concept I am getting at. I need to feel that she is in front of me on this date for me, and not for the drink/dinner/whatever. (Yes Katarina, I get that this has to be true logically, but I need to *feel* it.) So I like it when a woman offers to pay feeling appreciative for getting to spend time with me. And then yes, I will turn her down.

85. Michael17 85

    Moderator: Will you please add “and gladly pay” at the end of my last sentence? Thanks!

86. Andrea 86

    @Michael #85
    You think that grown women are acting like princesses because they don’t think that chivalry is dead?  I think the last few commenters pointed out how if given the chance, they’ll make things even, and how sometimes reaching for the check isn’t even allowed.  Thank goodness plenty of men still are okay being gentlemen.
    How many second dates are you getting taking grown women to Chili’s? I wouldn’t imagine that most $10 a plate restaurants would go over too well with anyone old enough to drink legally. Most high school boys do better than that.
    I don’t think anyone is expecting anything crazy, but I’d expect at least as much as I would treat myself to-and like the other women, as things progress, I’d definitely be offering up nice dinners (home-cooked or at restaurants) or other treats, like concert tickets.
    I think that both genders get to benefit from holding on to some traditions, but if you want to start out being really cheap, I don’t think you’ll frequently get to enjoy any of that.
    I don’t see how anyone wanting to date as an adult would think that being stingy and acting like the date is a transaction that you don’t want to invest in unless you are guaranteed results is a winning strategy.

87. Katarina Phang 87

    Michael, on first dates especially, I *expect* men to pay and I *appreciate* it period.  I just got home from a first date tonight in which my date was in total agreement with me.  He’s old school like me and it was a turn on.  Lucky he is well off too.  But anyone can always adjust places to eat according to his level of income.
     
    Up to you, you want to turn on the women or you don’t.  Or would you rather fuss over $5 (who’s paying for coffee)?  Let’s just be frank, most women don’t look up to guys who refuse to pay the first few dates.  If we don’t feel special, you don’t get anywhere with us unless perhaps she has no other options. It’s a red flag to me.
     
    If it’s too much for you, then just have coffee for “meet and greet” (first date), that way you’re not going to be broke.  Second date, you can take her to a nice dinner in which *you* pay (don’t you want to impress her?).  Don’t even mention that she should take the check for coffee/drink.  One guy did it to me one time, oh boy….I definitely wasn’t interested in him after he said that.  It was stupid.

88. Katarina Phang 88

    Not to mention it’s so TACKY talking about money first thing after you just met face to face.  Save it for later, for God’s sake.  It should be all about women feeling romanced.  Where’s the romance when you expect her to pay/offer to pay?  Sorry, i don’t care how broke you are or how rich/successful she is: be a man, respect yourself by showing the effort that you’re capable of taking care of your woman.  Then she will look up to you and warm up to you if there is some spark to start with (if not, at least you prove yourself that you can be chivalrous, something that is to die for in this time and age).
     
    If you don’t want your woman to emasculate you, don’t do it to yourself voluntarily.

89. Andrea 89

    @Katarina, #87 and 88,
    I totally agree with you.  I can’t imagine being too enthusiastic or nice to someone who is so clearly fixated on not spending any money or making sure that I pay my share or that he gets his money’s worth.
    The funny part is, I would bet that the men who are extra cheap and who want to only pay for coffee or go dutch are the first ones to try to demand that the relationship get “physical” so that they can check things out and determine whether you are worth spending more money on.
    I’m sure that men who are focused on the money just have a vibe that is a turn off, and when they get turned down, they label those women as “gold diggers.”
    But I would say that no one needs to accept this as an option.  We all have the option of ourselves, and if your only option is a person who doesn’t want to try at all then your choice should be yourself; the lovely thing about being a well-educated professional woman is that I can treat myself to loads of nice things on my own, and don’t have to settle for cheap dates or people who want to make sure I buy them a coffee to make things square.
    I think it’s pretty clear that this process requires patiences whether you get 5 dates a week or 1.  Filling in with substandard people is not a good idea for anyone.  The attitude that Michael displays is bound to manifest in a lot of other ways for anyone who accepts that behavior and enters into a relationship with him.
    And at no point is anyone advised to settle for people who aren’t into you and who won’t put forth any effort.  The advice to “settle” is NOT to settle for someone who doesn’t care about you.

90. Selena 90

    Anyone who doesn’t appreciate being treated is not worth spending any more time OR money on period. If you’ve dated women like this they’ve told you all you need to know about them, why continue?

    And Michael, if some guy suggested coffee after dinner and expected me to pay for it he would be SOL. It wouldn’t occur to me that was my responsibility – isn’t coffee (or dessert, or an aperitif) part of the meal? He/she who does the asking does the paying. And with that in mind, if I wanted to go for a drink afterward at a club at my suggestion, I would certainly be the one to treat my date there.

    You can get ticked about what you perceive as a “princess mentality – sense of entitlement”, but this is traditional dating. Buck tradation if you want to, but accept the consequences that women you may be really interested in may not be willing to play along with you – they’ll just think you cheap.  Many of us have learned that the men who pay for dates willingly are the ones who are most interested in us and potentially a relationship. The ones who balk at paying our way (when they’ve done the asking) are the ones who only want something casual – if that.

    Bottom line is to date within your means – with a generous spirit.

91. SS 91

    Sounds like some PUAs have infiltrated this site!

92. Michael17 92

    My Dear Princesses Andrea and Katarina =)

    No.

    I mean, if you met her off the Internet where you exchanged some emails and maybe a 10-minute phone call, then I’ve come to see the first date (meet) is better kept simple. How do we know you’re “special” anyway yet? We just met you!
     
    I’m all for putting extra *thought* into the date so it looks classy AND stays inexpensive though. A hole-in-the-wall ethnic place. Or coffee and if that goes well, maybe dinner. Creativity is currency too.
     
    You ladies might complain about chivalry being dead, but what you seem to be expecting–the guy footing the bill for a fancy dinner up front, for a girl he hardly knows and who probably won’t see him again (we all know that most first dates don’t lead to seconds, and usually it’s the woman deciding that), is just a sucker’s bet for the guy.  If a guy does this sort of routine 4 or 5 times a month, he’ll lose track of where all his money is going.
     
    In general, I’m all for *taking care* of the woman–by putting in the effort to plan the date out, walk her to her car, and so on. But I am a big believer that the woman has to invest something in this too. Just showing up looking pretty isn’t enough for me. Also, spending money to try to impress someone is a bad idea.
     
    A quality woman understand this. And YES, I’ve had a great first dates spending <$20, and I’ve gotten nothing out of taking women out on more expensive dates.

93. Karl R 93

    Andrea said: (#86)
    “How many second dates are you getting taking grown women to Chili’s? I wouldn’t imagine that most $10 a plate restaurants would go over too well with anyone old enough to drink legally.”
    
    You sound like an entitled princess to me (and my girlfriend). And I’m accustomed to paying for most or all of the dates, unless my girlfriend’s income significantly exceeds mine.

    Andrea said: (#89)
    “I can’t imagine being too enthusiastic or nice to someone who is so clearly fixated on not spending any money or making sure that I pay my share or that he gets his money’s worth.”
    
    Michael17′s attitude is clearly a turn-off. But you are equally fixated about how much money a man is spending … and it’s just as much of a turn-off.

    I’ve routinely taken women to restaurants with prices comparable to Chili’s. The ambiance is nicer, but the price tag is within 20%. I’ve done first dates that were free before. If I exclude online dating, my success rate for getting a second date is around 90% to 95%.

    Andrea said: (#86)
    “I don’t think anyone is expecting anything crazy, but I’d expect at least as much as I would treat myself to”
    
    You’d be getting what I treat myself to. If you have champagne tastes, they won’t be satisfied on my budget.

    After 17 months of dating, I still pay for almost all of the dates. (My disposable income dwarfs my girlfriend’s, so it seems like the logical decision.) But our first date probably cost me $12 to $15 (which is low even by my standards).

    My girlfriend considers it a red flag when a man spends too much on the first date. It’s happened to her three times. One man was compensating for being insecure. Another wanted to get married as soon as possible. The third got grumpy when she wouldn’t have sex on the first date … after he spent all that money.

    Most women accept a second date based on whether they enjoy my company. If the cost of dinner is more important than my personality, good riddance.

94. Selena 94

    @Michael17

    Totally agree with your post #92. I wouldn’t expect an extravagant “first meet date”, and like Karl’s girlfriend wouldn’t necessarily even want one. A light date that could be expanded if both people hit it off is preferable. And drinks at a modest restaurant (Chili’s say) fits that bill.

95. Katarina Phang 95

    Micahel, didn’t I say it wasn’t a matter of what place and how much you spend that would work with us women?  If your budget is limited, take us somewhere you can afford.  A coffee/drink will do too.  We get it that you want to feel us first and if I find you attractive enough on your profile I’ll go along with that.
     
    Then if there is a second date (which is really the actual first date perhaps), then you take her to a nice dinner.  But please, it’s tacky if you treat it like a business deal.  Just romance her and have a great time and pick the check, okay?
     
    That’s what quality women expect from a guy, no more and no less, no ifs and no buts.  That’s how we know how much interest you have in us.  If you don’t even pass the basic requirements like that, you’re not worth my time.

96. Michael17 96

    If there is a second date (or “first date”, after the first meet online), yes yes indeed, I pick up the tab. I am a gentleman.
     
    My point is that I am chivalrous always–e.g., I hold the doors for old ladies even though I don’t plan on sleeping with them. I am also generous with the women I’ve date, but I have learned to be very careful in the beginning. I want to know that she is there for me, not for the dinner or play or whatever. And yes, **I want her investing her energy in this too, right from the beginning**. Having her buy me coffee on the first meet is a great test. If she is turned off by that, then I can move on to the next.

97. Michael17 97

    Thank you Katarina and Selena for the kind words. That said, Katarina, even if I had all the money in the world, nice dinners are going to have to wait. She is going to have to earn that from me first. I will be creative though.
     
    No spending money in the hopes of impressing a woman.

98. Michael17 98

    By “nice dinners” I mean “expensive dinners”. The best way to keep dating from feeling like a “business transaction” IMO is to spend as little as possible in the first place.

99. Katarina Phang 99

    Micahel, I don’t think you will get far with that attitude with quality women: give me first and I will give back. If you don’t take the risk, don’t bother dating at all.  Both men and women take the risk (you paying, we dressing up/putting on make-up and wasting our time).  And as others said we pick up very quickly on that “cheap” vibe and move on very quickly.
     
    Quality women -and I’d like to think myself as one- treat the fact that we’re willing to put the effort to look good and spend time with you so we can see if we have a chemistry a privilege put aside only to few selected gentlemen.  If a man can’t even appreciate it and treat me like a lady, I’m really not interested, no matter what your reasoning is.  I’d rather just move on to a man who is less jaded.  There is no good news when a man starts with a wrong attitude like that.
     
    With the current man I’ve been dating the last 5 months: he pays every time we go out but I cook and do other things for him.  We women can and will give in our own feminine ways.

100. Diana 100

     Okay, these messages are intriguing. To Michael, how does a woman earn a nice dinner from you, and what do you consider a nice dinner to be?
      
     I like first meetings (if it’s from online dating or a brief, real life encounter) to be simple, like meeting at a coffee house or at a place for a light lunch. If this leads to a first date, I would expect the man to pay for everything, since he would have invited me to have a date with him. This is the same principle I use whenever I invite someone out or I let my children invite their friends to events. I always pay their way because they are the invited guest.
      
     However, I would never accept a date from a guy to simply have a free meal of any kind. That is crass and using a man. I can also take pretty good care of myself, too. I don’t need to stoop that low. I wouldn’t mind dates being fairly inexpensive, unless it’s a special occasion. If a man took me to an elite, upscale restaurant on our first date, I might wonder if he’d expect something in return , or that he might be trying to impress me with his money, which would not impress me at all. (This thought reminds me of my mom who dated a man for three months before she even realized he was driving her around in a Porsche.)
      
     Ultimately, dating is about the company you are with. And whoever does the inviting should also do the paying. Once our dating blossomed further into a relationship, I would cook special dinners and treat him to things that I’d know he liked.
      
      

101. Karl R 101

     Katarina Phang, (#99)
     I’m getting less impressed with your responses. You equate getting dressed up and wearing makeup with paying for the date? You dress up and wear makeup when you go out with your girlfriends. Do you make the friend with no makeup and low-maintenance hair pick up your tab … just to keep things even?

     I also spend (and potentially waste) my time when I go on a first date, and I value my time as much as you value yours. I don’t mind paying for dates, but it takes a lot of chutzpah to suggest that it’s an act of equality.

102. Andrea 102

     @Karl R., I’m not fixated on how much is being spent.  I’m put off by someone being so adamant about not having to pay anything at all.  My point is that most high school dates are still taking a girl out with the goal of showing her a good time, and they aren’t running a tab in their head.  Sorry if that makes me a princess, but I think that most of the advice on this blog tells women that a real man will court you and show that he wants to be with you.  How much that will cost, and whether or not that is a lot or a little bit of money is all relative perhaps to what we earn.
     Sorry if you and your girlfriend think that makes me sound entitled, but hearing someone over 30 rant about spending $10 is a turn off, and why you equate that with me thinking that a first date should take me to Nobu is BEYOND me.
     Michael was the one who made it really clear and was quite vocal about not spending money.  The truth is, most times, we don’t get to see what is inside someone’s head.  So yes, I’m fine with an economical meal, but Michael does not sound like a generous spirit, which makes all of the difference.  I can be super happy to get a hot dog and a soda with the right man, but I get the sense that some of the men who write in here rather angrily are keeping tabs on every dime.
     So for the record, it’s the combination of his attitude and his cheapness that is unappealing, and the fact that he wants to force a woman that he asked out to buy him a coffee as some kind of ridiculous test.
     I love creative, and if you are clever and open-minded, that can be inexpensive.  What I don’t like is cheap and mean.  Good for you if that is what we should be expecting from men that we just met, but it’s not what I happen to believe.

103. Andrea 103

     Oh, meant to say “good for you (and your girlfriend) if that is what you both believe…

104. Katarina Phang 104

     Karl, I”m just saying with your negative attitude that a woman might use you as a free meal ticket, you won’t go far.  I’m sorry I’d like to be courted.  I’d like to be respected and adored by chivalrous guys because I know my worth and if a guy can’t see that I have options it’s their loss ’cause I have no interest whatsoever in finding out about him further.
      
     Yes, I feel that my time (to dress up and spend a few hours to get ready and actually see him) is worth much more than any free food he offers.  That’s not why I go on a date.  I’d rather eat alone at home than using a guy for free meals when I know I won’t be interested.  I just got home from dating myself while I had options to get wined and dined by guys I have no interest in.
      
     Any guy who just assumes that most women will date anyone for free meals is a total turn off and it’s clear I’m out of his league.  They can try that with other women, not me.  Obviously this type of guys find a lot of women like this.  The question is why?  Like attracts like.

105. BeenThrereDoneThat 105

     All these responses are really interesting.  I’ll just weigh in enough to say; had a date on Thursday night with a guy (my age) and we split one dessert and drank water (my choice).  And then spent 2 hours talking to each other.   I’ll be seeing him again Saturday night.  It doesn’t have to actually cost anything. 

106. Michael17 106

     Andrea and Katarina, sorry but my viewpoints serve me just fine. It’s women who think as you do that I’d actually prefer to weed out early, because it just wouldn’t work. Good luck with finding men who will buy into your “Princess” mentalities. I can’t and I won’t.
      
     I really like BeenThereDoneThat’s response!

107. Katarina Phang 107

     And this is actually a quick/easy way for a woman to gauge a guy’s level of interest in her and what he might be like down the road.
      
     If you want a masculine man, simply stay in your feminine energy of receiving.  He needs to initiate, plan/pay for a date, treat you like a woman and make you feel taken cared of.  You set your boundaries early.  If he hesitates to spend on you on a first date, why can you expect from a guy like than down the road?
      
     It’s also a form of training to him that you are a high-valued woman (not high maintenance) that expect to be treated like a gem.  This is what works for you.  Unless you take it from him, he won’t understand and he will give you what you want/need in the relationship. The good news is when you’re happy and express it often, he’ll feel like your hero as well.  A happy woman makes a happy home.  And a man will appreciate things that he needs to work for.
      
     A woman who is too available (and accepting “going dutch” on a date is a form of being too available) poses no excitement/challenge for a masculine guy.  It takes away the “chase” thrill.  If he’s into you, he won’t care about who pays for coffee or if you chip in for tips.  He’ll be honored to have you as his company because you’re fun, sexy, smart, feminine and make him feel good as a man.  That’s worth much higher than the $10-20 he spends on you.  If a man is trying to tell you otherwise, run….run fast.  He’s not right for you.
      
     Sure, he wouldn’t know if you’re right for him on first date but don’t apologize that a guy needs to show some effort to be in a relationship with a woman of his desire.  It’s been like that for thousands of years.  I’m not sure why we need to change that now when it’s proven to be working for so long.

108. Katarina Phang 108

     “Unless you take it from him, he won’t understand and he will give you what you want/need in the relationship.”

     Typo…I mean “he won’t understand and won’t give you what you want/need in the relationship.”

109. Katarina Phang 109

     Michael, you’re so wrong to think I have a Princess mentality.  Quite the opposite.  I call it self-esteem.  And it is attractive to quality masculine guys.  If you don’t want a woman who values herself like that and set her standard high (and her boundaries firm), then you’ll end up with a masculine energy woman or a woman with fewer options.  Not that it’s wrong -to each his own- but I know what I want in a man.  A man who fusses about who pays for what on a first date isn’t for me.  He doesn’t turn me on so I won’t waste my time on a man like that.  He’s not masculine/generous enough for me -and I don’t ask for much.
      
     This is what my man says about me: “You remind me of the qualities I enjoy in a woman – fun, sexy, low maintenance, great cook, understanding, responsive, helpful, thoughtful … etc.”

     I’m very giving and because of that I expect the same in my man.  I don’t want to over give and get burned (depleted, resentful and bitter).  The first test is -and it’s very basic, very ordinary, a far cry from a Princess mentality charge (been done for thousands of years)- that a man courts me and shows some effort to get the privilege to know me better and get all the benefits of being with me.  If you see paying for first date as too much, there is no hope for you to be with a feminine woman who has everything to offer for you (unless you’re fine with a masculine energy woman who loves to take charge).

110. Denise 110

     I am of the opinion that the first ‘meet’ off the internet is best to be short and sweet and very simple. After all, the two people don’t even know each other. Going to a long dinner, whatever the cost, and then coffee, is too much too soon.

     I also think that spending too much money too soon hurts the man’s chances in a woman’s eyes. A man taking a woman out because he expects something in return doesn’t feel good.

     So its not really the money, its what’s appropriate for that stage in dating, courtship AND the spirit in which the woman is asked. Which leads to Katarina’s comments which I agree with.

     Ultimately though talking about a first meet off the internet is different than the second time they go out which is different than the sixth month of dating.

111. Evan Marc Katz 111

     For what it’s worth, I think that:

     1) Dates should NOT be short, sweet, and simple. They should be dates – fraught with nervousness, excitement, booze and the potential for romance.
     2) Guys should NOT spend a lot of money, nor should they cheap out. Two rounds of drinks should suffice at an atmospheric bar near her home.
     3) If you’re thinking of making a date into the cheapest possible endeavor for the shortest period of time, what that tells me about you is that you DON’T expect to have a good first date, so you’re minimizing your investment.

     I, on the other hand, ALWAYS expected to have a good time, because I spent a week emailing and talking on the phone prior to meeting. So my first dates often felt like second dates. And I was able to forge real emotional (and physical) intimacy and be the BEST first date she ever had, instead of being the latest in a series of generic coffee dates. All by spending a few more days time screening and flirting before date #1.

     This approach is in Volume 5 of my Finding the One Online audio series, and since I don’t hear anyone here echoing my thoughts, I figured I’d throw that out there.

     Seriously, y’all. Dating’s supposed to be FUN, not a fucking interview.

112. Katarina Phang 112

     Evan, as always, I love your response.  And I agree that if a guy is so worried about each dime spent on dates, then screen your potential dates stringently.  That way you have a feel of her before deciding if you want to spend your hard-earned $10 on her.  That’s why I asked “do you screen them”?  A reason a guy is so jaded into thinking that most women are just after free meals is because they’re just shooting in the dark (they’re like a kid in a candy store, perhaps).
      
     Be selective.  It applies for both men and women.  Even when I don’t have to pay for dates, I get burned too if I have been on a lot of dates that I don’t particularly enjoy cause of lack of chemistry or the guys are just plain boring.  That is my investment too.  That doesn’t make me want to just go out with any dude so I can have free $10 meals.
      
     But I do try to have a good time each time I decide to go out on a date (and I genuinely would like to see if we have chemistry so i will accept offer for coffee/drink).  Even when I do, I can only do twice a week, usually, at the most.  A lot of times I have to take a break (weeks without any) if I don’t find anyone interesting to go out with.
      
     If both start without assumptions that the other is just trying to take advantage of them, they will eventually attract the kind of person that is right for them.  This is law of attraction, plain and simple.

113. Michael17 113

     Katarina, OK to what you are saying, but what you might not be understanding is that *men* have to *screen women* too. This is coming from experience–I’ve made the mistake of ‘giving too much too soon’ on a first date.
      
     Anyway, I like Evan’s approach of screening/flirting over email/text/phone, and then having that lead to a “better” first date. The thing with a generic “coffee/drinks” first-meet is that, well, it’s generic. The woman will stand out anyway if she is pretty. What can a guy do to stand out with this format though?
      
      

114. starthrower68 114

     Michael, I can’t believe you are still on the market.  Why hasn’t someone snapped you up yet?

115. Denise 115

     I strive to make every interaction with any person a fun, interesting one. That’s from my friends to a date to someone sitting next to me on the train (if I choose to interact that is).

     The problem with email/IM/phone conversations is they set up a lot of projection, especially I think on women’s part. Nothing really matters until the 2 people are in front of each other. We are human and are meant to court in person. I have had many really good conversations up front, screened, been excited, then met the person and was disappointed there was no chemistry. To have to sit through a 3 hour date with them is too much. Its not that they are bad people or not nice and interesting, but I would rather be home doing my thing.

     I have done a lot of internet meetings and then dating. Over the past year or so, they have been one hour or so drink/appetizer meetings. They have always led to second dates if I wanted them, so I must be doing something right! What I have found is a smaller commitment of time that I can better handle, more of a sense of mystery about the guy (which is very attractive, especially if there is some physical attraction) and less burnout. I also feel less burden on me because he is not investing a lot on his side because more likely than not, I am not ‘feeling’ it for the guy.

     My attitude has changed from thinking I am meeting ‘the one’ based on good electronic or phone calls to simply just meeting someone I might never meet in real life.

     Short and sweet and simple is the way I have found works for me, afterall what’s the hurry in investing too much too soon? What’s the harm in a friendly drink and conversation for an hour versus having to fake it through three hours? If there are sparks, its fun to have the man ask for a second date which is more substantial and because both people really want to be there.

116. Selena 116

     @Michael17 # 113

     “What can a guy do to stand out with this format though?”

     Be interesting (and interested) to talk with.

117. Denise 117

     109

     Katarina, I 100 percent agree with your post. What I hear in a lot of the posts is like dating a business transaction and petty. I don’t need a man buying me dinner at applebees, I can do that on my own. Its absolutely nothing about the mechanics, its about the energy and attraction and generocity of spirit of two people meeting.

     You are right in that if she is not in her feminine energy, a woman who sits in her masculine energy is who they will attract. Male is about doing and giving and female is about being and receiving. If I am not seeing that from the outset, there will be no more dates.

118. Diana 118

     Michael, IMHO, meeting at Chili’s is about as generic as a date can possibly be. I love comfortable, stylish, one-of-a kind neighborhood cafes for first meet ups; not the local Starbucks.

119. Vox 119

     Men who complain about having to pay for a dinner date typically date too many women, usually for shallow reasons. If you only ask women out based on their physical appearance, you will have a higher number of dates which go nowhere. Furthermore, if you actually take a few minutes to get to know your potential date’s likes and dislikes, you can easily suggest something a little more interesting (and cheaper) than the standard dinner date. That takes effort of course, something complaining men are not willing to do.
     One of my favorite dates a year ago was a 10 mile night time bike ride to Coney Island to watch fireworks.  Total cost: $1.50 for a beer. Get to know the women you date. Perhaps she was an art history major who would love to see a special exhibit at your local museum. Maybe she loves hiking. But if all you do is look at a pretty picture on the internet and seek dates solely on that, all you can do is extend a dinner invite.

120. SS 120

     @Andrea
     So yes, I’m fine with an economical meal, but Michael does not sound like a generous spirit, which makes all of the difference.  I can be super happy to get a hot dog and a soda with the right man, but I get the sense that some of the men who write in here rather angrily are keeping tabs on every dime.
      
     Exactly my thoughts. I think most reasonable women can tell the difference between a good date that happens to be inexpensive, and a cheap date in which the man is going out of his way to spend the least amount of money possible because of some subconscious passive-aggressive dislike of women in general.
     In my world, if our date is $10 because the man found out that there’s a free concert in the park featuring music that I like and then we buy food off a cart at the concert, that date is AWESOME. First, it shows that he was listening to me when I mentioned that I liked, say, jazz, and then he used some initiative to find a jazz event. The second date I had with my guy cost about $10 — the price of sandwiches — but we had a picnic on the lawn of a historical site that we went to visit. Again, GREAT date.
      
     Or, if it costs $10 to eat at a really cool Thai, Cuban, Vietnamese or other ethnic restaurant, that probably will earn a man points as well — considering that he likely asked what type of food I enjoyed and then did a little research to find a place (or took me to a favorite that he enjoys as well).
      
     That’s completely different from a man picking the most generic, simplistic and cheap restaurant possible to “test” a woman to see if she’s “worthy” of, oh, another cheap date… and another cheap date before he then decides her worthy enough of a $30 meal. Now, I know in the Midwest, South and some other areas, Chili’s and Applebees might be the only things going… but if I live near a vibrant city with lots of entertainment and dining options, I’d like to see a late-30s/early 40s man showing a bit more initiative than picking the most quick and cheap option.
      
     When I went on a date, I was looking to enjoy myself that day, regardless of whether a second date happened, and I hoped to be with a man who had the same thoughts. This whole, “make a first date quick, cheap and painless,” mindset is a turn-off, and luckily I didn’t encounter it much when I was dating. For the few who were like that, I didn’t bother with a second date, even if I supposedly passed their “tests.”
      
     (Oh, and I did have four dates with a man who took me to two coffee dates before we did dinner. I was okay with that because we had barely talked on the phone or by e-mail, and the coffee dates were a good way for us to talk.)

121. Joe 121

     Starthrower68: see here:

     http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/how-do-i-let-men-know-i%e2%80%99m-a-catch-when-i%e2%80%99ve-never-been-married/

     

122. SS 122

     Is “princess” the new b-word these days?  LOL
      
     The funny thing to me though is that in my days of always being accommodating and settling for the least amount of effort because I didn’t want to be seen as a “princess,” I ended up finding the worst men and getting, well, little effort.
      
     When I started setting a few more standards, shocker of all shockers, I met more men who really enjoyed taking a woman out on a nice (and nice doesn’t equal expensive) date and didn’t hold a penny-pinching mentality.
      
     Maybe it’s just me, but I noticed in real life that the women that got called “princesses” the most seemed to eventually end up with the type of men that they wanted… and those men thought they were the luckiest ones in the world.

123. Michael17 123

     Interesting debate. I guess *everyone* disagrees with me here! =)
      
     All I am suggesting is that the man conserves his resources the first few dates until he knows the woman better. Use creativity instead of cash to come up with something great, I don’t care how much money the guy has. I fact, the more money he has, the more he needs to be creative.

     Ladies, harp on me for saying this, but guys do indeed need to watch being taken advantage of too, and that might happen if they throw their resources around too freely. Katarina, you might not be “like that” I have several stories of women who are seeing a couple rich guys who take them out on their boats, and who are only sleeping with one guy who doesn’t do any of this stuff for them. Fellas reading this, you do not want to be those rich guys!
      
     I’ve gotten much more shrewd on this from even a year ago. The big test for me on this is whether she seems willing to invest/how receptive she seems. For all the talk about masculine energy/feminine energy (which I do see), I’m seeing that a guy can be masculine and a woman feminine if the guy has the girl invest. My last internet date: We met somewhere inexpensive and classy (Thai place) and got dinner. I drove 45 minutes to her 10 (I told her that as the man, it is my role to drive to see her and that I wanted to be chivalrous) and I picked up the check–came to under $30 so no big deal. After dinner I suggest we get coffee. I lead us there because knew where the place was via Google. I tell her (with a smile) that I drove all this way for her, so she’s buying me coffee for my drive back. She happily agrees. I get a latte AND a very nice kiss goodnight.
      
     I love, luv, SS and vox’s posts! (For the record, I never told anyone to take their dates to Chilis or Applebees. I did say be creative but don’t spend a lot of money.) Awesome first dates. Smart smart men.

124. Diana 124

     If I sensed that a guy felt he had done me a favor, by driving all the way to see me and take me to dinner, and upon initiating a suggestion for coffee, tell me (even with a smile) that I was going to buy him coffee for his drive back, that would be our last date. You are not being chivalrous nor generous, if you’re willing to drive to her on your dime, but not also return in the same manner. It shouldn’t be a tit for tat transaction. I’d go along with the game, but not be interested in a second date.
      
     As for the rich guys, they know what they’re getting in for with those kinds of women. They stroke their egos, ogle over their boats, and if they’re not sleeping with them, the men keep flashing their worth in hopes that they will. No sympathy here.

125. Diana 125

     Denise #115, I agree. And most definitely, some of the best dates cost almost nothing, if anything. I love free date ideas. I am passionate about art, like photography. Heading out to a park or the beach, strolling a historic street to snap a few shots and have an ice cold drink is wonderful. Such a great way to relax, while taking in a sunset.

126. Ruby 126

     Michael #123
      
     Have you been reading David D’Angelo? Sounds like you were trying his “cocky and funny” bit by asking your date to buy you coffee to “compensate” for your long drive. For the record, I generally think his advice only works for young guys who aren’t looking for a serious relationship. He doesn’t even recommend buying dinner on the first date.

127. Ruby 127

     For those who don’t know, David D’Angelo is a dating advisor for men.

128. starthrower68 128

     @ Joe #121,

     I’m not sure what you meant by sending that link – I’m not taking offense, but I was married for 12 years.

129. Selena 129

     @Michael #123

     In the scenario you presented I would also buy you that coffee for your drive home. Basically because I would feel guilted into doing so. After you left though, I’d feel that I was subtly manipulated.  It would color how I thought/felt about you and going out with you again.

     Are you still dating the woman who passed your “test”?

130. SS 130

     Michael… yes, my guy is a smart one, but I didn’t give the full story of the date.
      
     He drove four hours from a different state to see me. Paid for his own gas, food and hotel and never asked me for a dime. And after the $10 picnic lunch, he bought dinner and coffee for both of us the next day at a place where entrees were a little bit more. We probably spent about $40.
      
     I didn’t pay a cent the whole weekend, and he probably spent about $200 in total… for basically two dates.

131. Joe 131

     @ Starthrower68 (#128):

     That was just a response to your comment in #114 asking why Michael hasn’t been snapped up yet.

132. Michael17 132

     Well, I am going to admit that I am here to learn about dating too. I’ve made all the mistakes too, including going overboard for a girl I just met. There’s a few things that we as guys have to balance:
      
     (1) Dates, including the first meet has to be “special” in some sense. I really agree with EMK in that it is tougher for chemistry to happen at Starbucks or the Chili’s bar for the first meet, because “everyone” does that.
      
     (2) Being “generous”. The masculine energy is to provide, the feminine energy is to be receptive. I get that.
      
     (3) All the while being “smart”. I just don’t subscribe to the philosophy on here that women are princesses who should be put on a pedestal. Even though, yes, I agree with masculine/feminine energy. I really feel that spending too much on an early date is a horrible idea, not only because it doesn’t work, but also because it sets a bad precedent. Many a man has gotten burned that way.
     I have no problem spending money on a woman, but it is only for a woman I know is truly into me.
     I also feel that first meets from the Internet are a special case. I’m a believer that both the guy and the girl need to put some skin in the game in that case, so to speak. I might buy the first round but she’s buying the second. I mean, who invited who, really? A girl that I approached “in real life” and invited out though–I wouldn’t feel that way as much. Then I would feel that it is on me to pay.
      
     Let me tell you a story. I once drove across a couple of states to meet with a girl whom I made contact with over the Internet. I paid for gas, the hotel room, and the date–which I planned, and I didn’t mention it. She was really nice too, and she bought me coffee–she insisted. That said, I still made a point to keep the cost of dinner down. Why–I mean, it pales in comparison to the traveling costs. Well, because the thing that made the weekend special was that I made a point to see her, and went through all this effort. That’s enough, and that better be enough. I was not going to start things off wrong by spending a lot of money on dinner. Our presence (and that I cared enough to come up with something creative) is enough to keep us entertained, and I didn’t want to distract from that.

133. Michael17 133

     I want to emphasize that I view that drive to see the girl as a POSITIVE experience. *I* was the one who made the decision to drive down and see her, to get a hotel, to plan the date. I am glad I did all of this, even though things didn’t work out. She seems to be a quality person, and I learned a lot.
      
     What is interesting is that I don’t even view these costs (drive, hotel) as being money spent on her though. I only see the money spent on the date itself. THAT I made a point to keep down. (I can’t really justify why I make this distinction, but I still make it.)

     Well, yes I can justify why. I give the girl the gift of my presence. In this case it took a certain amount of trouble, but hey. In return, the girl gives to me the gift of HER presence. THAT’S ENOUGH. I am not going to muddy things up with a fancy dinner or anything like that.

134. jacinta 134

     To Kurt: Absolutely agree, it´s something I have often thought about, that really men are the ones who are choosing if women take such a passive role. I recently decided to speak to a cute guy I saw in the street and I was the one who suggested that we should go for a drink (it was a cheap bar and it only cost 5 euros) but still he paid. Either way, the “rules” need to be broken sometimes for a woman to get what she wants!!

135. Eric M. 135

     Per true feminism, they should go dutch or split 50/50.  Expecting the man to pay on the first date or any other simply because he’s the man and/or he did the gender role asking is gender inequality, which is only OK if you aren’t a feminist.

136. Jane 136

     Evan , just dealing with this issue after an internet contact became a first date.
     It began by him asking me to meet in a town 60 mins from me and 90 mins from him , for “late lunch”.
      The first date was a diner lunch and Loooong dessert. I (seriously) left my wallet on the car seat .He paid .He walked me to the car and , feeling embarrassed that I didnt have my wallet at the restaurant, I offered half the money. He took it.
     Now I feel a bit yiiik . does .he lack generosity? He should have declined my offer, not taken my 35 dollars. It cost me $95 to have my hair coloured before meeting and $20 fir the manicure, $105 for the new top I wore. I drove to meet him. I wish he had wanted to spoil me . I feel short changed !!
     And now I dont know how much his desire to date again may be financially driven?????
      
     I agree its best to not go there at all. Let him ask for the  first date and pay for it and I will spend my money on looking HOT for him.
      
     DEAL?

137. Saint Stephen 137

     @Jane (#136)
     He’s just a date, he doesn’t own you and you aren’t his girlfriend – so you can’t say you will spend your money looking “hot for him.”

     Yes you can say you spent $95 in coloring your hair, $20 for your manicure and $105 on your new top but you seem to be forgetting they all belong to you – hence you shouldn’t anticipate him giving you a nice treat just to get even with the expenses.

     You can as well decide after 5 dates that you don’t want to see him anymore and he won’t be able to lay claims on any of the stuff you bought to beautify yourself, neither can he ask you to reimburse him for half the entire cost of what he’d spent during those five dates duration.

     Sorry, just felt you needed to view it objectively, not from a woman’s perspective. 

138. Ron Diggity 138

     If women are equal they should pay 50/50 – otherwise is basically legal prostitution (at best) or freeloading (at worst).  Also, the “who ever asks out” thought is specious considering men do the large % of asking out.

     Evan, I realize you make your living pandering to the female dating demographic, but I think this advice just enables some of the entitlement mentality that ultimately retards women from finding that right guy for them

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