Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?
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Dear Evan,
I was at a speed dating event last night for the second time. Just like the first time, it was full of smart, pretty, successful women in their thirties and forties and men of similar ages with manual labor jobs (and a few running their own manual labor businesses) but no men of equivalent professional or educational status except for one doctor. Why he was there, I do not know, as he made it clear that he was not really looking to date anyone. He did however buy me a drink in the bar afterwards and asked me what I thought of the event. I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.
He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people and that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t. I am just wondering how many other men think like this? For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.
It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this. –Fiona
Fiona,
It doesn’t matter how many men think like this.
Just like KC’s email a few weeks ago about how she receives emails from disappointing men she meets online, you’re illustrating an amusing concern with men’s preferences in women.
Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.
My answer to you is largely the same as my answer to her.
Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.
If he is a dishwasher and he finds you pretty, he’s going to ask you out.
If you don’t go out with him because you intimate that you’re “above” him on the dating food chain, it’s predictable that he might lash out at you.
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367 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Steve 1
Fiona,
Reading between the lines of your post I got the impression that you are a decent just trying to make your way through the world like everyone else. Your choice of words, however, makes you come like a stiff snob. Being viewed (judged) like that is the reason why many men will not even go near a woman who earns even a little bit more than he does.
Steve
helene 2
Like many women on this blog, I fall into the category of high-earning, intelligent successful women who have had the experience Fiona and others describe of feeling like I rarely met men my “equal” and got criticised for being too snobby or picky or dismissive when I bemoaned the fact that I got asked out on line by 55 year old overweight bus drivers who couldn’t spell.
After years of fruitless dating since my divorce, and thanks in no small part to Evan’s advice on this matter, I have now met a wonderful man who I am happily in love with, who wants to marry me. He earns less than I do, has little formal education beyond school and works in farming, so in that respect he perhaps falls into the category of men who for a long time I would have considered “unsuitable.” And yet – he is highly suitable! He is manly, confident, has intelligent and interesting things to say about all aspects of life, is the same age as me (48)sexy, good looking, has no ex wife and kids complicating the picture, has money in the bank…. He is also loving, committed, a good cook and great at DIY.
Where I think Evan’s advice has helped me is that it has somehow freed me up to give things a try with a man who is not exactly what I thought I was looking for but who has so many good traits that things work really well between us. It took me a long time to come round to the idea that I could potentially have a successful relationship with someone who wasn’t a professional, university-educated type, but through Evan’s repeated message about not looking for a carbon copy of yourself but looking for someone who was loving and marriage minded, I had reached a place where I was at least prepared to consider it when this man came along. He pursued me, he saw the potential in the relationship before I did, is not the least bit intimidated by my income or letters after my name and is very much the man in the relationship, which is important to me.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that although its true a lot of the guys you meet at events will not be suitable for you, it is important to be at least open to the possibility that the laundry guy may be your ideal mate. Its hard to get your head round this, and in no way changes the fact that most of these guys (most guys, period!) will not be right for you, but it is possible that one of them might be. Does that mean you have to date every overweight, ageing laundry worker who comes along? Absolutely not! But if there was a less overweight, kinda cute, younger laundry worker… well, maybe…
Anyway, I’ve been looking for an opportunity to thank Evan for the part he has played in helping me to meet my soon-to-be husband, so this seems like a good opportunity: THANK YOU EVAN for opening my mind to this possibility and enabling me to meet someone I would likely have passed up had it not been for your wise words.
Evan Marc Katz 3
Thank YOU, Helene. Comments like yours make all the hate mail, criticism, and arguments with anonymous strangers worth it. Seriously. Congratulations on your happiness.
Kathy 4
I disagree! Men are likely more willing to date a larger range of women because they are not as marriage oriented – they will date for sex, or short-term reasons more often than women will – 2) They are fussy in different ways! – They prefer thinner, more attractive and youthful women, and do not care so much about education and career, because they are not as concerned with intellectual interaction.
Fiona 5
Congratulations Helene, I am pleased that you have found what you are looking for. All the very best with it.
Joe 6
@ Kathy: if you’ve read any of Evan’s work, you should know that men don’t care about your accomplishments or intellect–what they do care about is how you make them feel.
Soul 7
I, too, followed Evan’a advice and am very happy i did.
I have been in a relationship with a man one generation older than me and i am the happiest woman in the world, i am so grateful God sent me this wonderful man!!! Of course he is less educated than me (most people on this earth are), but who said education = intelligence? If anything, intelligence in a human being has often been hindered by his/her education…
My man is smart and generous. His knowledge of art has taught me so much about the beauty of life, nature, and human beings… and his approach to life, as a whole, is extremely inspiring. He has got integrity and he treats me wonderfully… when you encounter sb like this, who care if he does not have a PhD (or a masters, or a BA?)
DITCH tHE CHECKLIST !!! Take time to really meet and get to know the person behind the labels !!!
Fiona 8
Again Soul, I am glad that you found what you were looking for. I think however that I am better judge of what is good for me than anyone else is.
Frimmel 9
I am willing to date a “larger range of women” because if I stuck with some checklist authored from my fantasies I wouldn’t get dates. Lisa Fremont won’t be walking in a door near me any time soon.
Evan Marc Katz 10
What, if anything, did you learn from my response to your question, Fiona?
Because I’m going to suggest that understanding what may be in your blind spot is far more important to you than “how many men think like” the man in your question.
If you were a great judge of what is good for you, you would probably not be asking the question. Most of us are very poor choosers until we get it right.
And people who chose to value intellect more than kindness, or money over character and consistency, often end up choosing educated wealthy men who either don’t want to commit or have trouble staying faithful. Worse, they bemoan their fates by saying “there are no good men” out there, having passed up the good ones for bad ones.
Soul 11
Hello Fiona #8:
Quite the contrary actually…. you might not be the best judge because of your blind spots (it is the same for everybody) …A little humility goes a long way….
Please receive a warm and friendly hug; I sincerely hope you’ll soon find what you are looking for!
Soul 12
Well Fiona, Evan just posted an excellent reply!!!
hugs
Ruby 13
@ Kathy #4: I agree with you! Men are plenty superficial when they are just looking to casually date, which is the norm for them.
Actually, and ironically, it was the DOCTOR (who showed up at a speed-dating event not really looking to date anyone) who told Fiona not to dismiss the manual laborers. I do object to his comment “that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t” consider all types, and would urge Fiona to consider the source.
However, I wouldn’t rule out a man who ran his own manual labor business, or a self-made man with with less education, a shorter guy, or whatever. I’ve dated PhDs, but one of my smartest exes was a guy with a high school education. It really depends on the person and their interests and curiosity about the world.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having one or two must-haves. If a very intellectual man is important to you, that’s fine, but you my have to compromise on other external traits. Look for the intellect, but don’t neglect the deeper layers of kindness and integrity.
Maria 14
Evan,
I do not understand one thing. You said:
“Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier. We just want you to think that we’re amazing. ”
However, these re the qualities most men look for in a woman, can you explain this??
Nadia 15
I’m going to go out on a limb here and get Fiona’s back, at least a little. The doctor at the speed dating event who lectured Fiona sounded like an ass. A professional woman in her thirties does NOT need to date a service washer at a launderette if she doesn’t want to. And no disrespect to the service washer, but odds are, they don’t have much in common for all sorts of valid reasons. Socio- economics influence our cultural experiences, and consequently our interests. The things we have in common with others is what adds to our attraction of others. The doctor implied that she didn’t have the room to be picky in this department, based on her age. It was ridiculous of him at best. That aside, Fiona, don’t be afraid to date someone without a college degree. There are PLENTY of good men who are motivated, successful, intelligent, kind and sexy without that piece of paper. Soul is right: ditch the labels and get to know someone as a person before you write them off.
Evan Marc Katz 16
Maria, I don’t understand your question. Can you please rephrase so I can clarify?
Goldie 17
The problem with checklists is, it’s so difficult to find someone who matches all the criteria, that by the time you do, you’re ready to overlook this man’s personality flaws, just because he was so hard to come by and you may never find another MBA six feet tall, no extra weight, your exact age, that lives five miles from you and makes six figures. So you try to ignore the facts that he still hasn’t set his divorce date with his ex-wife, or that he’s a control freak, or that he is leaning the very opposite of you in politics and religion and you argue about that each time you meet, or that he’s a pretentious douche, or that he is boring as hell and you have nothing in common. (That last one, happens more often than you’d imagine.)
The first man I dated after my divorce, checked off every item on my list, up to and including the love of classical music. He also told me a story on our third date about how, when he walks his kids to school in the morning and sees someone run a stop sign, he jumps out in front of that car, stops it, and yells at the driver while his kids stand on the sidewalk and watch. Same date, he brought me home, parked in the driveway with his engine running, his headlights shining into my neighbor’s bedroom windows (at midnight), and tried to make out with the car still in drive and his foot on the brake. Charming. I stuck it out with him for another month because I was afraid I wouldn’t find another, six-foot-tall, liberal agnostic who’s working on his PhD. Then I finally came to my senses and ran off to date an old friend of mine, who never went to college, wasn’t liberal, didn’t like classical music, and carried about a hundred pounds of extra weight, and had an awesome time.
That got me thinking. I realized that matching every item on my checklist is not a guarantee that the man will have something in common with me or that we’ll have a good time together. Now my approach is that it is okay to have some kind of a checklist, but they aren’t carved in stone, and slight deviations from the list on one or more items are okay. Nobody says to date a bum off the street. But an intelligent, successful man who hasn’t completed his college degree is perfectly okay.
The man I’m seeing now, while exceeding my expectations education-wise, definitely missed a few items on my list, and I on his. (He probably hadn’t counted on dating an immigrant, for one thing!) But we have a great time together and that’s what matters.
Jackie Holness 18
Being too picky gets you picked over…not saying that you shouldn’t have standards, but the standards should be realistic considering all factors involved…
BeenThruTheWars 19
My husband has less education than I do, is from a lower-social-class neighborhood, is much less sophisticated in many ways than I am, is less ambitious, has no interest in current events or the broader world around him, isn’t well-read, has siblings who are unemployed or low-skilled workers – and yet, he and I are perfect together. He treats me like gold, makes me laugh and draws me out of my head, where I would prefer to live most of the time. We’ll be married 7 years this coming New Year’s Day. (Time flies, huh, Evan?) Evan is SO right about the “checklist” nonsense. Fiona, you might want to read Lori Gottlieb’s excellent book, “Marry Him” if you are at all interested in getting married and having a family one day. It’s a real wake-up call for us “perfectionists.”
Michelle 20
@2, Helene, good for you, congrats! We’ve have a similar experience. As a result of Evan’s thoughts on broadening our horizons, I made a concerted effort to date all kinds of different men…from really good looking, to highly educated and successful and/or older. What that did is allow me to more clearly see why my current boyfriend is a good fit for me and why all those men were all good men, just not good partners/boyfriends–for whatever reason. He is a professional, I have a BA, he never went to college. I’m more interested in the world around me, he’s not, but can still talk intelligently, which I like. We both like sports, etc., etc. I really get this concept that no one is perfect…there is no perfect man, and there’s no perfect for me…there are just good men who can make good boyfriends that we can partner with perhaps in marriage.
If you want someone that’s more educated,. Be careful what you wish for and good luck!
P.S. I think that doctor saw exactly what you were about, and challenged you on it. He did you a favor
Catherine 21
I agree with KATHY4 “ Men are likely more willing to date a larger range of women because they are not as marriage oriented – they will date for sex, or short-term reasons more often than women will – 2) They are fussy in different ways! – They prefer thinner, more attractive and youthful women, and do not care so much about education and career, because they are not as concerned with intellectual interaction”"
Evan says men just want to date women who make them feel good about themselves. Hmm, now if a size 16 woman thought a man was wonderful I doubt she would make him feel wonderful. What would make him feel wonderful would be a a very attractive, size 8-10 woman at least 10, maybe 20 years younger.
Fiona 22
I do understand what you are saying Evan and I am a bit flexible. Just about every man is taller than me so that is not so much of an issue and I don’t mind someone being a bit less successful, a bit less intellectual, a bit less well educated, a bit older (even all in the same package). However, it would be hard for me to accept anyone that didn’t at least meet those criteria. I do not value intellect over kindness – I do think that both are important. Nor do I think earnings are more important than character but I do think being able to have a reasonable standard of living is important. How flexible does one really have to be before feeling that you have settled for a man or a life you don’t really want?
Catherine 23
ps. why is this woman going to speed dating events that attract men without degrees? I would think most speed dating companies offer a variety of events according to age groups, interests, educational level etc
Evan Marc Katz 24
@Catherine – I would think that it goes without saying that a man (or a woman) has to find his partner physically attractive in order to forge a relationship, so your point is kind of moot.
Give a man identical twin sisters and he’s going to choose the one who is fun, easygoing, and makes him feel the best about himself, not the one who is constantly criticizing him for his flaws.
@Fiona – “How flexible does one really have to be…?” Well, since there’s a lid for every pot, if you haven’t found a lid, you’re either not trying on enough or dismissing one that fits. Once I learned to let go of my list (East Coast, Jewish, liberal, Ivy League), I was able to find a life that I DID want. You don’t seem to be able/willing to do the same. So all I can say is that you should keep on dating and consider the wisdom of the women who posted on this thread…
Karmic Equation 25
There are so many good, intelligent men out there who may not be highly educated (“book smart”) but are very street smart. And street smart men are just as awesome and sometimes even more intelligent than the book smart ones.
Character and spirit are the qualities that should top any checklist, if you choose to have one. And if you judge the book by it’s cover you’re likely passing up many good men who would have treasured and adored you in a way that your fantasy-inspired alpha, well-educated, well-earning man never could.
JB 26
Aside from the “laundry guy” there are plenty of professions full of intelligent good earning men that don’t have bachelors degree’s. All of these men are not idiots because they didn’t go to college but they may have went to trade school. Just as every person that does have a degree isn’t intelligent or have common sense. Hundreds of thousands of men!! Some (not all) of these men may be great matches for Fiona or others like her.
Mechanics
Electricians
Plumbers
Carpenters
Construction workers
Contractors
Heating/AC
And the list goes on………………….. and I know they’ll always be snobby women that say “Ewwwww, those men get dirty at work and do manual labor”. Yep, they do while making a good living some 80-100K.
I’ve been putting I have a bachelor’s degree for 3 yrs now in my profile even though I don’t. (Mainly because everyone “below” me at my profession has one and after years of being honest and putting “some college” and never knowing how many were’nt returning my emails because of it.) Not one woman I’ve dated from “some college” to “Master’s Degreed” teachers etc… in the last 3 yrs has ever asked me about it or known the wiser. NOT ONE!
K 27
@Fiona, I don’t think you have a ridiculous list of wants. Especially as you seem more flexible about some things such as height, age and looks (I’m assuming on the last). I would suggest (and this is what I am doing) to just keep engaging in life (online and off) and keep tweaking things that matter less to you. I have a well educated and successful friend your age and she didn’t even care about the things that you care about and still struggled until this year. Even people who don’t care about successful men often struggle. She is now seriously dating an ex who has been a good friend for many years. The dating non-college men issue isn’t really relevant for me. I’m not sure of the age of the other commenters or where they live. Living in a highly educated area if I knocked on 10 random doors I would be hard pressed to find someone without a college degree. Luckily it is the bare minimum around here (that doesn’t mean everyone actually is a professional though). I read this blog not to do an entire overhaul on my view (I don’t think Evan did that either), but to question some of my wants and try to open my mind on some of them. I definitely am less picky that I was 5 years ago, although some of my wants are going to stay.
Karmic Equation 28
@Fiona
“How flexible does one really have to be before feeling that you have settled for a man or a life you don’t really want?”
I think you need to ask yourself if you had to choose between having a man who makes you feel good about yourself or having a life you feel good about, but not both, which would you choose?
Answer that honestly and you should have a clearer vision of what’s important to you and gameplan for that.
There is no wrong answer. But you really do need to be honest with yourself about what is more important to you. Life or lifestyle?
marymary 29
Well if I was at such an event and a doctor bought me a drink I’d be telling him I was having a great evening and enjoying meeting new people. And did he have any single friends who WERE looking to date?
Tom10 30
Soul # 7
You said: “of course he is less educated than me (most people on this earth are)”
And then you tell Fiona (#11) that “a little humility goes a long way…”
Ha, that made me chuckle
Jennifer 31
JB #26
Women haven’t asked because they probably figured a 50-something year old man ( or whatever age you’re using on your profile these days) would not be lying about his degree. The fact that you’ve run across women that have given you the benefit of the doubt doesn’t mean that you should feel proud of getting over on them.
Christina 32
I’ll chime in here as another woman who’s found happiness with a less-educated man. My husband is a truck driver with a bachelor’s degree (I have a master’s) The difference in education is just about completely irrelevant. He’d intelligent, a great conversationalist, and we never run out of things to talk about. I think it’s a mistake for any woman to rule a man out just based on his education. There’s way more to a great relationship than having a lot of things in common.
Ileana 33
@Goldie #17: Your first paragraph summed up exactly how i feel about the list. I am so trying to fight my willingness to overlook personality flaws just because he meets most of the criteria. But it’s so dang hard! Whenever i put my foot in the door, there will always be this annoying little voice in my head saying ‘Well heck, you aren’t perfect either. So what if he is a control freak/arrogant snob/wise-ass etc’. I always end up feeling such remorse.
‘(He probably hadn’t counted on dating an immigrant, for one thing!)’
Ugh, i SO get what you mean by that! I’m happy it worked for you, but in my case… not so much. Or even better: not at all. It is so annoying. Every time i find a ‘decent’ guy (as in, someone who matches most of my things on my really reasonable checklist) and then he finds out i’m an eastern European immigrant, he either:
a)pulls away (although he was initially attracted to me)
b)immediately starts having the ‘my place or your place’ attitude (if you know what i mean).
This makes me so frustrated! I hate the awkwardness that always follows! What bothers me even more is that i haven’t figured out a way to deal with this yet! If guys in college behave like this, what should i expect in a few years time? Grrrrrrr!
Ruby 34
Goldei & Ileana
Not to go too off-topic, but I’m curious: Can either of you please tell me what the big deal about dating an immigrant is?
Jennifer 35
I think the stumbling point for many of us, especially in online dating, is what is being too choosy and what is selecting out what you simply don’t find attractive? Sometimes I get so caught up in ‘not being picky’ that I look at the men who message me online and think ‘Really? Do I have to correspond with all of them?’. Where do you draw the line? Going out with men ‘just ’cause’ is when online dating gets old and frustrating really darn fast. I’m sure that men have a much easier time picking which women to write too without the social guilt of being acused of being too picky. Let’s face it, anyone who has married for love has done so because they picked one person above others.
Mickey 36
Like Fiona, I’m also an attorney. If it happens that I’m dating another attorney, my position would be “I’m dating so-and-so, who happens to be an attorney.” My take would be the same if my significant other (assuming I had one, of course…LOL) were an accountant, an artist, a receptionist, a corporate executive, and so on.
The point is, at least for me, is that one’s occupation is one part of the person that I would be dating. I would be looking to choose the person, not their job.
Hope my three cents helps here.
Fusee 37
“Why are women expected to date men with a lower educational level?”
They are not expected to, but they must to if they hold any degree above a Bachelor’s. That’s the logical consequence of:
1. equal opportunity of education for both genders, and the increase in number of women getting a higher education compared to men,
2. not enough single men with higher degrees available in the 35+ dating pool.
Finding a marriage-minded man who is also able to build and nurture a marriage is already difficult enough to not complicate things further with degrees, job titles, and income level requirements.
The best time for a woman to enter a marriage with a peer in terms of degree is while in the process of getting that advanced degree herself. After graduation, marriage-minded men with those rare advanced degrees are married or about to be, therefore older single women MUST change their expectations and requirements if they do want to partner up. It does not make sense to keep 28-year-old-style requirements while dating in one’s late thirties. When older, it’s time to be extremely flexible with the checklist while much more purposeful with the courtship process and timeline.
marymary 38
Ileana
be flexible in the stuff that doesn’t matter. For me that would be how he dresses, whether he has hair, his job, education, interests, politics (and no that doesnt equal date a nazi) , income, popularity.
stick to what does matter. For me it would be his religion, values, how he treats people, how he treats me.
the problem with the list is that as you excitedly tick off job, height, whatever, you can miss some serious red flags. And no I’m not saying poor fat stupid people are nicer. It’s that you may be focusing on the wrong things.
and be careful of seductive charming men. Making you feel good (temporarily ) is not the same as being a good person.
what is about these men that attract you. They sound like twits to me.
JB 39
Oh Jennifer I don’t “feel” like I’m getting over anything on anyone I’m just pointing out how irrelevant it all really is. You either like and are attracted to someone or your not, assuming you actually meet them(like Fiona did at her speed Dating). It’s got nothing to do with degree’s. Honesty and integrity???….now that’s a different story.
Fiona 40
Mickey I would have thought that most women would see you as a catch so long as you treat them well. Where are you going wrong? Unless you are chasing supermodels, I don’t get it.
Elizabeth 41
I think one thing underlying the original question was that successful women seem to think that the currency of dating = money, degrees, job, and other worldly accomplishments. We tend to look for those things in guys; and we typically think that those same traits are what should make us desirable as well. However, what I have learned from Evan is that we are totally wrong about this! The currency of dating is actually = making the other person feel good, happy, and cared for etc. Successful guys have already figured this out; it is successful women who have a hard time accepting this reality (I know I did!). But, if you can shift your attention to the quality of your relationship (rather than the characteristics of your man), you can choose a relationship that will make you much happier. I mean, who doesn’t want to be with someone who makes you feel good, happy, and cared for? That’s the best!
Mickey 42
Fiona: The problem is that if many women see me as a catch, I haven’t heard about it lately. But as I said previously, admittedly, I’m also a little too jaded to care about it now.
Fusee 43
@Ruby #34: “Not to go too off-topic, but I’m curious: Can either of you please tell me what the big deal about dating an immigrant is?”
My two cents, being also a Europeean immigrant… Dating an immigrant is no big deal. Plenty of men love how exotic it feels to have sex with an attractive woman who speaks English with an accent. Especially when it’s French : ) Marrying an immigrant is not for everyone though. Possible cultural differences, differently-sounding English over the long-term, long/expensive flights to visit family abroad, etc are all inconveniences to some people. Others are excited about the open-mindedness that such experience entails, the incredible language skills, the option of emigrating to Europe, etc.
I have not found my background being a big issue in general given everything I bring to the relationship table, but I certainly have had to sort out the men who would have intended to use me to get their exotic notch on their bed post. Making sure that – on top of being marriage-minded – they would see my background as another positive for the long-term was key in moving forward with the right man.
Julia 44
I don’t think a man needs to hold a degree in order for me to date him, however, in my generation you really have had to go to college to get a middle-class job. My father did not, he worked in a factory and made a decent living. Now a high school diploma usually means minimum wage or close to it. I am not so romantic that I believe the nicest, kindest man would be a great husband if there was always a financial struggle and I chose to work for non-profits so although not low-wage I certainly don’t make the kind of money to be a bread winner.
So if I met an amazing union plumber I would consider him but having grown up with those men, I know most of them married at 24 and already have 4 kids in my neck of the woods, so they are less available than their well-educated counterparts.
henriette 45
Fiona, I think many of us here really do feel for (& with!) you. (Okay… so there’s no such thing as to “feel with you” but you know what I mean, right?) I love this topic; many of my girlfriends, in a variety of countries, are facing the same challenges.
And, I must add, that doctor sounds like a total ass. He was probably a nerd who couldn’t get dates through college and his 20s and now that he’s finally an MD with ladies throwing themselves at him, he wants to kick the kind of attractive, bright women he feels might have rejected him in his youth. Imagine if someone had said to him, well if you don’t give the over-weight, gnarly-toothed women a shot, you get what you deserve! He’d have been insulted and cross, no doubt.
I want to share some random thoughts based on your letter, comments and previous posts.
1. Keep dating. You don’t have to go out with guys who utterly repel you but do accept the occasional coffee and dinner invitations with men who mightn’t seem like Mr Right right off the bat but at least make interesting-enough conversation, have a nice smile and seem kind. I maintain that being a good date is a skill that improves with practice and there’s an ease and comfort that we can lose when we sit out of the game, waiting for a date with someone close to an ideal.
2. Educated or reasonably high-earning is easier to come by than educated and high-earning. I know plenty of contractors who earn 6-figures (US$) and plenty of PhDs who don’t. The dream is to have both, but consider which is truly more important to you. Even then, you might well not even find a mate who fulfills it. And remember: high-earning people can fritter away all their money and there are an awful lot of educated fools.
3. I fell in love with several sweet guys who were kind and marriage-oriented but who didn’t have much money. One trouble with these relationships was that these lovely men slowly became comfortable living at my standard and expecting that I should provide it for them. The gratitude of Wow, I cannot believe how sweet you are to take me on a beach vacation! eventually became This room doesn’t even have an ocean view and Florida is tackier than California and next time we should not consider staying anywhere that isn’t a 5-star hotel. You can imagine how much I enjoyed that!
And yet, isn’t this what many women have done to men through the years and, in different ways, continue to do? Rather than be grateful when a man can provide us with nice things, we demand it. One of the reasons some of my high-earning guy friends go for relatively uneducated, low-income women is that they imagine that they will be delighted to live at a certain level that he can afford rather than expect it. (Of course, I remind my guy friends that entitlement knows no socio-educational boundaries! But for some reason, when they see a woman who can already buy her own house — rightly or wrongly — they believe that she won’t be as touched as the girl who lives in a basement studio rental flat when he can provide a nice home for their family).
We women with our own money have to realise we’re fighting this negative stereotype. Fiona, when you mention wanting to be able to take time off work to stay home with a child/children while not taking any kind of dip in lifestyle, realise that some men will interpret that as entitled, I deserve talk.
3. I have a friend with an advanced degree (earning mid 5-figure salary as an associate professor) who wanted to marry a good guy who could afford to let her stay home with the kids. She eventually did, but she was 43; by then it was too late for her to have biological children and he doesn’t want to adopt.
I have 2 other friends who wouldn’t settle for guys who they didn’t find appealing and went the sperm bank route; one is pregnant and the other has a gorgeous 2 year-old.
Both of these options are great in my books and show that sometimes you want to be married-with-kids but can be overjoyed with one or the other. Try to remain flexible both in looking for a mate and also what other options exist “out there” for bright, capable women. No one owes us anything but we deserve to find ways to make ourselves happy.
RW 46
@Ruby #34: “Not to go too off-topic, but I’m curious: Can either of you please tell me what the big deal about dating an immigrant is?”
I know you didn’t ask me the question but here is my opinion anyway! Dating an immigrant is not a big deal but if you expect the relationship to evolve into marriage, it is a big commitment for some. It means potentially maintaining the traditions of two cultures and some people just aren’t up for that. These things come up even while dating and in my experience there are those who prefer to play it safe and stick with what they know.
Still-Looking 47
I don’t have any peer-reviewed studies to back up my opinion but I believe much of the desire/need to have a partner with certain attributes is cultural. I’ve known many woman who were raised to believe that husbands are providers and the more he can provide in the way of status and money, the better the catch he is. I’ve known some women who were told to find a man who makes you happy. I’ve known many more women who were to to find a doctor or a lawyer.
The pressure to marry well doesn’t necessarily end as women get older. I’ve had several women complain that their female friends immediately focus on their dates occupation and income. As a man, the questions I get tend to focus on attractiveness, age, age of children, and only occasionally occupation. There is some subtle and not so subtle peer pressure for both men and women to have a trophy partner. The only distinction being that the criteria is different for a trophy wife than a trophy husband.
Perhaps some of us just care too much what others will think of our choice rather than searching for what is truly important. I’m just as guilty as the rest — perhaps I’m just seeking validation when I’m so eager to talk about my date with the 32 year old hottie but rarely mention my dates with the 45 -55 year old ladies.
The great thing about this blog is it forces a little self analysis — the bad thing is that what I see about myself isn’t always too nice.
Angela Beasley 48
In reference to the blog post and your response I believe you’re totally missing her point. She (the lady who wrote or emailed you) only made those traits she listed “super specific” to make a point.
Men also have a checklist, they just aren’t that aware of it. It goes something like this: Much younger, submissive, giddy, etc., etc – This is with the exception of professional or more evolved men. These men are typically already married at around that age range so they aren’t available. Women who seek careers over marriage instead of careers end up with a choice of what’s leftover from the pool of men who don’t typically have their “crap” together.
If women were as picky as men say they are, there would be no stories of women crying over repeatedly being cheated on, domestic violence and the like. Women really aren’t picky enough and probably put up with Waaaayyyy more than they should just to be in a relationship because its the “thing to do”. This is why intelligent, professional women have less choices because they realize that they can survive without a relationship and value themselves and their time.
Every time I speak to a woman who’s been married for over ten years and I hear what she had to go through to maintain that relationship, I cringe.
No, I’m not a man hater. I love men and I had a really, really GREAT one in my life at one time. But I really think the cause of this issue is the fact that career minded women simply realize they have choices and are exercising them, and with choices come consequences and sometimes those consequences may mean being alone a little while longer until you meet another decent human being.
Kathy 49
Fusee #37, well-said! I was trying to articulate the same idea, but did so poorly.
@Joe – I do read and hang on Evan’s every word. I just disagreed with the demographic analysis he did on this one. I know how you make a man feel is super important, I also know that a mans tolerance for bad behavior is often proportional to the hotness of the woman who is dishing it out. Men want pretty as much as woman want accomplished. the problem is that pretty wanes after 40 and accomplishment increases. Many men trade up for a younger model at this point, right? No judgments, this is the law of the jungle.
I think that it is important to be open-minded, and not exclude anyone based on their education level or income. It’s funny, I have dated rocket scientist turned brain-surgeon, and I have dated Mr. Fix-it. Fix-it was sexy as hell to touch and look at and brain surgeon was incredibly interesting to talk to. In the end, I dated sexy longer even though it was aimless, and I wish I had had enough attraction to brain-surgeon to get the party started. The reality is that having someone you respect and can relate to is what matters. I think that Fiona in this particular post entertained the conversation with that bitter dude at the event too long. I bet he wasn’t sexy!
Leigh 50
a man does not need a degree to prove that he is intelligent. However, he must be street smart. After giving my recent guy a chance, it was the lack of street smarts and financial responsibility that made me get rid of him. THOSE are the valid reasons to get rid of a guy
androgynous 51
Catherine at 23. Maybe the organisers could not find enough well educated, high achieveing men. so they had to expand their net to include the not so well educated. Which makes sense seeing that women are more highly represented in higher education. Does it mean men are stupid ? Or maybe smart enough not to want to go to college.
Lucy 52
Intelligence is what matters. Some people aren’t as good at jumping through hoops.
Mark 53
Education means you’re more educated, not necessarily smarter or more intelligent.
Intelligence can be measured in MANY ways.
Peace!
Maria 54
Evan,
I wanted to understand better when you said that men are not looking for taller, richer, smarter, or funnier women. All they care is for women to think these men are amazing.
So my question is: How is this possible if all they look for in a woman are within those characteristics. They love fun, tall and smart women.
Rochelle 55
I have a masters degree and a decent paying job. While I don’t make it a requirement that a guy has to have a certain degree or earn more than me, I am really big on him having his purpose in life set. Because I have mine set and to me that is more of a common value which is important in a relationship. I can be with a with one who isn’t quite where he wants to be but knows where he wants to be and is working towards it. But a lot of men these days are just way too over the place about what they want for themselves in life or plain unhappy with their career, and are doing nothing to change it. I dropped the laundry list of requirements in my early 20s, including things must have masters or phd. it definitely opened me up to more prospects and made realize that I don’t need certain things from a guy to be interested in him.
Evan Marc Katz 56
That’s why I didn’t understand your question, Maria. It’s built on a false premise. Men care about how you make them feel, above all. Qualities that are indicative of how you make him feel are feminine, optimistic, confident, understanding, self-aware, trusting, supportive, easygoing, and playful. Funny is a bonus. Educated is a bonus. Rich is a bonus (and maybe a negative if she has to work many hours to stay rich). Tall is irrelevant.
And that’s my point: YOU’RE looking for tall, rich and educated. We’re looking for the adjectives I mentioned above. Plus “attractive”, which goes without saying.
Amy 57
Many (not all) men who are high education/ high earners are also alpha, type A, and ambitious, list makers who like to check things off lists. I married one such highly educated, ambitious guy and after we married, I realized I was an item on his check list that he had crossed off. He never paid much attention to me after we got married because he had moved on to the next items on the list. At this point in my life, having an attentive, caring, if somewhat less educated guy in a less prestigious career sounds fine to me. i know a couple where the woman is a high powered career gal and her hubby owns a small house painting business, and they seem very compatible and happy.
Fiona 58
Thanks for the feedback. I will reflect on it.
Birdlife 59
After following advice along EMK’s lines I just had a lovely relationship of about a year with a man in construction who was kind, attentive, attentive to my emotional cues, helpful with housework and children, attuned to my ”emotional cues” as EMK would say – I very reluctantly finished the relationsip as he had a very sticky situation going on financially and the loose ends he had with his ex wife and (multiple) children would be pretty much unlivable with for the long term – I’m just glad that I have been able to redraw the paradigm of what I want/expect from a relationship in the future
Goldie 60
@ Ruby #34: Not sure, but I found it scares a lot of people off, at least where I live. Almost every guy is kind of apprehensive at first. I guess they are looking for someone who is exactly like them. I’m guessing that people want you to get the same cultural references, to have had the same experiences growing up, etc. I’m pretty good on the references, mostly because my two teenage sons have lived here almost their whole lives. But there is no way I can ever catch up on past experiences, because, well, I wasn’t here then. Some of them (or their relatives) were also worried that I could be a scammer. Some guys also try to treat you like an exotic, which is quite annoying, but, after hearing what my Asian women friends have to deal with, I guess I shouldn’t complain.
I’ve had a lot more success with people who have moved here from other states, and have relocated one or more times in their lives. They are already used to living in different cultures and don’t mind being exposed to another one. I’ve had no luck whatsoever with the guys who were born, raised, and still live in the same area, same city where they went to high school. I never turned people down based on that, it just never worked out. I was too strange to them I guess. One of these guys freaked me out pretty badly when he asked, out of nowhere, in a phone conversation: “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?” Not proud of my reaction, I told him I had to go, said good-bye and hung up, because I really didn’t know what to say to this.
Dawn 61
I think deep down we all really really want the total package. However, I think as we become more mature, we realize there is no real prince charming….at least not that as it ALL.
On the other hand, I think most woman are not willing to be honest about what they truly desire. Some actually do want the check list, someone they can brag about, someone other women would be jealous of …but they know it comes with a price and are not really willing to admit that.
Some, keep the list as a sheild against the possibity of something real.
Once you realize it’s the FEELING you get with someone that makes the difference, you are more willing to set aside the List. I know what I find most attractive, however, experience has taught me when I move to a man that is more in line with my “likes” he is less likely have have what my soul truly desires…
JustMe 62
JB – It seems like you list a lot of things that aren’t true to get past people’s filters. So I ask . . .
Is it ok if a woman posts a picture of someone other than herself, someone better looking as her profile picture with no actual photo of her real self on the site? What about if she posts a picture of her from 20 years ago? Or 150 pounds thinner? What if she is only doing it to get past your filter? Is it the same thing or dishonest?
Fusee 63
It almost looks like for some women their partner’s (external) features become a reflection of their own sense of worth. If they can not say that “he is a doctor/attorney/whatever fancy job title, he earns a six-figure income, he is good-looking, etc” it means that they are a loser. Or maybe it’s a class/status issue with an uncontrollable need to bring home someone perceived as “equivalent”, no matter how irrelevant these features are for a successful relationship and long-term happiness.
Of course I myself tend to be more comfortable/compatible with someone who has experienced what it is to commit to studying hard for at least four years and as a consequence who has access to more comfortable and interesting jobs. However I’m not hung up on a checklist of requirements, and instead simply live my life according to my values and preferences, which makes me run into the same kind of people without having to work hard at it. Therefore I can turn my focus on assessing men’s deeper qualities, the ones that are actually relevant to building and nurturing a happy and long-lasting relationship. If he happens to be highly educated, a high-earner, or better looking, it’s a bonus. But it’s just that: a bonus.
It can be challenging to explain this concept to family and friends, but it’s not impossible. It just takes a little bit of patience, and being okay with letting go of people who do not get it.
@Goldie #60: “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?”
Although I understand where it’s coming from, I so, so dislike this kind of question! I was already feeling at home after two weeks in the US, so after so many years of complete engagement in my local californian community, home is 100% here. Much more so than for many Americans actually. I visit my birth country, I’m not going home. People, if I wanted to go back to where I’m from, I would. If I’m here, it’s because I find it much, much better!
I guess it’s another concept I’ll have to keep explaining for the rest of my life…
Michelle 64
“Like Fiona, I’m also an attorney. If it happens that I’m dating another attorney, my position would be “I’m dating so-and-so, who happens to be an attorney.”
That seems very odd to me, I would never think to introduce someone I’m dating along with their profession in the same sentence. Someone’s job/career has nothing to do with the type of person they are. And frankly, why put a prejudice in someone’s mind right away, let that person speak for themself if they choose to reveal their profession or do it in a way they feel comfortable. This smacks of ‘status’ seeking.
To the OP, if speed dating events aren’t getting you to the men you would like to meet, stop going to them! Choose other ways to meet men. Might want to consider focusing in on activities that don’t have anything to do with work since masculine energy we use at work is not really an attraction factor for men in romantic situations.
I also took Evan’s advice and kept myself wide open to many different types of men. I began to question that advice, and thought perhaps I had kept myself TOO open, not being selective enough (even though ALL the men I dated or had short relationships with were good men). There were really good looking men in there, engineer types and a wealthy, older man just to make sure I rounded out the selection. :) What happened is a man I dated last year for 6 months re-appeareed into my life recently. What all that other dating did for me was to TRULY open my eyes to what he good match he was for me, and how generous and attentive he is, and how we’ve begun to move to that level of intimacy I desired in a relationship (that all those other men couldn’t provide). He’s professional as I am, however, he never went to college. I more admire his work ethic and perseverce to get to what he wanted/wants to achieve.
My four cents
Mickey 65
Michelle:
When I said that “I’m dating so-and-so, who happens to be…” , I’m not presenting it as I would actually introduce my date by identifying what she does. My point was that what my date does for a living is only one aspect of the whole person.
Even if on the off-chance that I actually said “I’m dating so-and so, who happens to be a waitress” (for example), how exactly is that status seeking? Again, I’d be looking to date the person, not her job.
Goldie 66
@ Fusee, my thoughts exactly. I’ve been here 15 years. Most of my relatives are here. My parents live a few blocks away. My children grew up here and do not remember living anywhere else. They can speak and read in my native language, but very poorly. They just learned to read in it last year, when they were 16 and 18, so as you can imagine, not very fluent. As for “back home”, we sold our apartment when we left, and my parents did the same. We only have one or two living relatives still living back in the “old country”, that we barely keep in touch with. We have no one or nowhere to go back to. We never even went back to visit. Maybe one day when time and money permits, I’ll go, but as a tourist. My kids would be lost there, and I would probably never find work. This is home. Going back there would be like immigrating again. Just like everyone else around me, there are some things about my life here that I like, some that I do not like, some that I plan to change, etc. I live here. I’m not constantly weighing my life here and now against my life somewhere else fifteen years ago to see if it’s still worth hanging around or I should call it quits.
Also, just because I may not be a 100% perfect fit for a midwestern suburb, doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t fit in in America as a whole. So there’s that as well.
Joe 67
@ henriette #45:
IIRC Fiona has mentioned wanting children, but being unwilling to go the adoption or sperm bank route. She wants to stay home and raise this child, yet doesn’t want to lower her standard of living in order to do so, which logically requires a husband who makes nearly double what she currently makes. This may be a large part of what is driving her checklist.
Ileana 68
@ Ruby #34: I ‘d love to tell you what the big deal is, but unfortunately, i don’t know for sure either. I can only make assumptions based on my past experiences, so it definitely isn’t a general rule here.
My conclusion is that some guys are simply skeptical of dating people from other countries, mainly because they can’t predict how they will react. Considering that some (if not most) men feel overwhelmed when dating women from their own group, imagine what it might mean having to add another ‘translation filter’ (ie. another culture) to the dating scheme.
Then there are others who are simply so committed to their prejudices, that they simply don’t want to give you the chance to prove them wrong. I’m not saying that these people are bad – by no means! Many are genuinely wonderful! I’m just saying that they will be friendly, but they won’t date you.
@Fusee #43: ‘My two cents, being also a Europeean immigrant… Dating an immigrant is no big deal. Plenty of men love how exotic it feels to have sex with an attractive woman who speaks English with an accent. Especially when it’s French : ) ’
and #63: ‘I was already feeling at home after two weeks in the US, so after so many years of complete engagement in my local californian community, home is 100% here. ’
I’m really happy that you’re pleased with your new home and your new community
But the thing is, most people in the US are known to be more open when it comes to interacting with other cultures. I also have friends living in the US (NYC and Boston) and i have been told that they were simply ‘absorbed’ by the community there. So immigrants might not be such a big deal, especially when they’re from Europe.
However, things look a lot more different when you’re a European immigrant in another European country. For instance, do you think you could have stated the same thing, if you were a French immigrant in, England (gasp) or … say, Germany? I bet you couldn’t. And it’s not because of you, but because of history and the conflicts between nations which go waaaaaaay back.
So, not that i want to hijack the comment section or anything, but i would really really like to have Evan’s input on this, mainly because i know it won’t come up any time soon (pretty please with cherries on top):
If guys who scored ok on my check list (it is really reasonable, i promise!) and initially were really attracted to me, but upon finding out about my ‘origins’ started becoming cold, is it worth while still trying to prove them that i am not the way they might have labeled me in their heads (which has always to do with the fact that i am an immigrant)? Or to what extent should i go? I know that you tell us to stop holding out for the unavailable men who don’t want us, but really… at this stage, my only option would be the dorky guy interested in other cultures and ‘ethnical’ food (hence interested in me mainly because of where i come from).
Fiona 69
Ilena, people in western Europe get on just fine living in each other’s countries for the most part. I lived in Switzerland and the Netherlands, had no real issues and back in the UK I have friends from France and Germany who love it here so I think you’re incorrect to suggest that we all have issues. The main issue that I have seen is language.
RW 70
BIG LOL @ “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?”
Again, harmless but kind of annoying. Also a bit more understandable if still rude in Europe because immigration is not as common. Anyway, the moral of the story for me is that some people are clueless. Will probably always remain so and in any case they don’t mean offence. Happily, there are plenty of others who are not this way. Thankfully, I have never come across this in a dating context though I’ve heard stories.
I have a story to share. A few years ago, I was on a GAP adventure in Central America. There were 6 of us from Canada on the trip (4 were caucasians and 2 – my friend and I – were not). On the same tour was a 70 year old gentleman from California. Nice enough as people go but a bit clueless. After spending 2 weeks together as a group (there were about 16 of us), we were in Costa Rica on the last leg of the trip. He and I hadn’t conversed extensively at that point but in general, after that amount of time together, we knew basic details about everyone in the group. My friend and I happened to be sitting across from him at a restaurant. As the conversation quieted a bit and we began to eat, he turned to my friend and me to ask casually – “So, how was the flight here from India? Must have been long.” I didn’t look at my friend because I was dangerously close to laughter but the other Canadians sitting across from us gave him a funny look and rolled their eyes. Needless to say, that didn’t register with him. One of us told him that we had flown from Canada. He went back to his dinner without even realizing that he may have given offence. I was more amused than offended but I can see how terrible this situation would be in a dating scenario. The worst part is that these people are trying to be friendly and don’t realize how impossibly clueless they are. Also re: immigrant, I have never understood that mentality. *Everyone* is an immigrant to North America, unless your ancestors were Innuit. But that is how it works. If you look caucasian and have no accent, you will not be labelled as an “immigrant” even though you may be one, first generation. On the other hand, even if our great grandparents moved to North America and YOU speak no Chinese but look it, you may get “Ni Hao” yelled at you by multiple groups of curious, giggling Spanish schoolchildren in Barcelona. True story….happened to my friend. I was there
Fusee 71
@Lleana #68: “However, things look a lot more different when you’re a European immigrant in another European country. For instance, do you think you could have stated the same thing, if you were a French immigrant in, England (gasp) or … say, Germany? I bet you couldn’t. And it’s not because of you, but because of history and the conflicts between nations which go waaaaaaay back.”
I agree with you that the immigration experience (and dating experience in the new culture) is going to be influenced by where you are from and where you are going to. Some immigrants are sadly not welcome, despite the great benefits they are bringing to their adopted country. I definitely believe that I’m unfairly priviledged in being a white Western European immigrant, and on the top of that from a tiny country that has plenty of issues within itself but not much with others (I’m originally from French speaking Belgium). Therefore I feel decently accepted wherever I go (I traveled around the world), and I had the same great experience when I briefly lived in Germany for two years before moving across the pond. However it’s not all about the names of the countries; how you manage your cultural integration will greatly influence locals’ perception of you as one of them or as an outsider. Basically the overall experience of an immigrant is going to depend on how successful their negociation between the two cultures is, and how open-minded the other party is at that level. You can’t control others, but you can control yourself! I certainly did a great job negociating between my own values and the US values, and it shows.
“… is it worth while still trying to prove them that i am not the way they might have labeled me in their heads (which has always to do with the fact that i am an immigrant)?”
I personally would not try to prove anything to a man who would have labeled me without knowing me, whatever that is, really. Dating is about finding out what would work and what would not. A different cultural background is certainly a lot to take, and I would not be upset at someone not willing to discover what I am really about and possibly take up the challenge of building a cross-cultural relationship, but there would be no point for me in trying to change someone’s mind who would be skeptical from the get-go, even if their skepticism is based on assumptions or predjudices. Dating is not activism. If my background is a relationship deal-breaker, fine for me. Next!
Tom10 72
Fiona, Goldie, Ilena, Fusee
“the main issue that I have seen is language”
Right. I would be unlikely to date a non native English speaking immigrant for language reasons rather than for any xenophobic or cultural reasons. I really enjoy verbal banter, the subtle play on words, hints and innuendos etc. that you can only really engage in quick-fire conversation with a native English speaker.
An immigrant from another country is slightly less preferable in the long run because of the logistical reasons Fusee pointed out – it’s just so much less hassle to date someone from your own country.
It has nothing to do with ignorance, prejudice or racism.
Tom10 73
I mean an immigrant from another English speaking country is slightly less preferable because of logistical reasons.
Goldie 74
Tom10 #72. Dude, are you reading our posts? You think we run them through google translate before copying them on here? It’s quite an interesting assumption that all immigrants, regardless of their background, language skills, the number of years they’ve been here etc. are slow to react, bad with innuendos, cannot carry a halfway entertaining conversation and so on. Cannot speak for the rest of our foreigner crew here, but it’s definitely not the case for me.
This takes me back to the original post. When you look at someone’s bio or online profile and, based on details like their place of birth, education, profession, assume things about this person that you cannot really know — like, I don’t know, “he’s a plumber so his crack must always be showing” — you’re cheating yourself out of meeting interesting people, one of whom may well be your match. Your loss. And yeah, hate to break it to you, but that’s prejudice. Being the foreigner that I am, I looked it up: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice and here it is: ” a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.”
@ RW: “even if our great grandparents moved to North America and YOU speak no Chinese but look it, you may get “Ni Hao” yelled at you”
True. I hadn’t even realized how bad it was, until my coworker, who was originally from China, told me that, after 10+ years here, he was taking his wife and kids (both kids born here) and moving back to China. When I asked for his reasons why, he told me: “Your children are white and have no accent, they will be fine here. But my children, just because of how they look, will always be treated like foreigners.”
Fusee 75
@Fiona #69: I agree. Learning the local language – and learning it to as close as the native level as possible - is really a necessary first step to a successful immigration.
@Tom #72: with all due respect, your assumption that non-native speakers might not be able to delight you with “verbal banter, the subtle play on words, hints and innuendos, and quick-fire conversation” is kind of ignorant ; ) You would be surprised at how skilled some non-native speakers are with not only grammar and speech speed, but also their ability to play with words. It’s not just about native skills but a lot about personality and how you like using words to communicate. Amongst my all-American friends I’m the most playful with language – even if I can’t claim yet speaking English at a native level. Anyway it’s all about priorities. For casual dating, it might be too much hassle, but when it comes down to looking at values, character, and relationship skills, thankfully some men are willing to look outside of the all-American box : )
Sometimes your life-long partner does not look like what you (and your family and friends) had in mind. The more open-minded you are on irrelevant factors, the more likely you are going to find your special one. Ditch the education and cultural requirements and focus on what matters!
Goldie 76
Fusee #75:
“thankfully some men are willing to look outside of the all-American box : )”
Here’s your opening for an innuendo, Tom. You have 30 seconds. Go.
PS. FTR I started learning English in 2nd grade at age 8. I went to specialized school where we had five English lessons a week in grades 2 through 10. Our teachers had all completed 1-2 year internships in England after finishing their degrees. But a guy that rules me out immediately based on my origin, will never know this, because he’ll never bother to ask — unlike, say, my boyfriend.
Tom10 77
Goldie and Fusee
My apologies, I didn’t mean to offend: you are obviously two very intelligent women with language skills well above average. I just said I’d be unlikely to date someone for that reason, but of course I’d judge it based on the specific individual.
I just don’t like those conversations where I find myself slowing down automatically, but this doesn’t apply to either of you
Ileana 78
@Fiona #69:First off, i didn’t claim that everybody has issues. I also didn’t say that people don’t get on well in each others countries. Nobody is going to kick you out or vandalize your car (although i could tell you a few stories about that). It is just that locals in these places are more inclined to still treat you like an immigrant and not be ready to take you in as if you actually belonged there. On the surface, everything seems fine and everyone is polite, but if you look deeper, the situation isn’t all that pink (especially with all the mutual resentment being built up now with the euro-crisis).
Love the chocolate.
Your experiences as a UK citizen (if i understood correctly) in the Netherlands and in Switzerland had an overall positive outcome, because these countries never actually had any direct confrontation with each other. Your German and French friends might have had an overall food time in the UK, but that doesn’t make it a general rule (nor does it make it an exception). I live in Germany and frankly, i can use ONE hand to count the number of people who actually could recall an experience somewhere abroad, without being called a NAZI, being, made fun of, or looked at funny. Plus, you can’t deny the fact that countries from the west are more likely to treat people from other western countries somewhat different than they do the ones from beyond the former iron curtain. That’s why the US is different. They don’t have these issues we have.
To a great extent it depends, as Fusee brilliantly put it, on where you are from and where you are going to. I would add ‘and what you’re planning to do there’. I still maintain my belief that most people will be nice to you, but won’t want to date you.
However, i agree with you 100% percent that the language is the number one problem and the number one key to a successful integration. No doubt about that.
@Fusee71: Ahhh, Belgique!
You really hit the nail on the head when you said that ‘the overall experience of an immigrant is going to depend on how successful their negociation between the two cultures is, and how open-minded the other party is at that level.’
I personally had to learn it the hard way. I had to overcome my shyness and go up and talk to people in order to socialize and actually make friends. German folks aren’t exactly the most talkative lot when it comes to dealing with strangers. I got used to that. They got used to me.
Fusee 79
@Goldie #74: “Tom10 #72. Dude, are you reading our posts? You think we run them through google translate before copying them on here?”
My Spanish is not good enough yet.
Ha ha ha!!! I’ve been laughing my head off from that one in the last half an hour!!! Come on Goldie, let’s admit it: we actually write our comments in our native languages and Evan translates it all nicely for us. Sadly translating from French is starting to annoy him profusely, so I might have to keep going in German
Kein Problem!
Tom10, no worries, I’m not offended. I’m just trying to help you guys realize that excluding people randomly because of uneducated assumptions or even possible “inconveniences” might not help in the long run.
@Lleana #78: Yep, some people will not date/marry someone different than themselves, whatever that difference is (citizenship, accent, skin tone, education, income, hobbies, etc). It can be frustrating to feel excluded, but the actual loss is for the intolerant one. As we can read from the comments, it’s the close-minded that remains single, and it’s folks like my boyfriend and Goldie’s boyfriend who win the whole package, no matter how different the package looks/sounds from the picture they had in their minds. They see the bright side of cultural competency, cute accent, regular international traveling, and the possibility of raising bilingual kids. What is a hassle to some is priceless to others!
henriette 80
I’ve dated mostly Northern European immigrants, not through any conscious choice but — I’ve recently realised — because I’m willing to give them much more leeway. When a Dutch guy talks about money or a French guy talks about sex in a way that I don’t really like, I find myself gently starting a discussion or simply letting it slide, vs. walking away (which is what I’ve tended to do with North American-raised WASPs, who I figure should know better…) Clearly, being gentle and forgiving attracts a lot more men than the cold shoulder LOL.
And, in my current home town (major Canadian city), it’s a total status symbol for the local white rich guys to have a hot immigrant wife: proof that they’re worldly and not white-bread. In fact, the super-expensive neighbhourhood close to mine seems to have 2 sets of wives: 1) beautiful immigrants (mostly from Hong Kong & India, though a few from South America, Eastern Block and Northern Europe) of whom the husbands are constantly boasting, “Women from —— are so much more elegant & feminine than Canadian woman!” and 2) pretty small-town girls whose husbands are proud and excited to take the Professor Higgins role and transform them into sophisticated metropolitan beauties.
Joe 67: You’re right – thanks. I did notice that Fiona didn’t want to take the Sperm bank or adoption routes but I thought I’d mention them as options she might wish to reconsider (just as many of us have reconsidered our dating choices). Most of my friends who did so never dreamed of being single mothers but eventually saw this as a valid option and are now thrilled to pieces with the choices they made.
Soul 81
I so wish education would serve to teach people how to be tolerant, open-minded, and to see past the labels (which is my personal definition of intelligence)…. but you do not learn that in books unfortunately…you do not learn how to be happy in books either…there is a famous song in French that says “what is it that they teach you in schools, if the most important is overlooked?” (my translation)
I did not know the expression “street smart”, but i love it!!!
Tom10 #30
i might have come off as a brat, but I was only stating the truth (and it was part of my argumentation). I said that I am more educated than most people (it is a FACT), I did not say that I am smarter than others though (which, of course, would not be a fact but a conjecture!).
Fiona 82
Ileana, I won’t invalidate your experience. I spend a lot of time in other European countries including Germany and Italy. The fact that our countries were at war once makes no difference to me or them. I even dated a German guy for a while – no reason I wouldn’t again so my experience has been very different from yours. There are French people I know who have been in the UK for over 10 years. It really isn’t that dissimilar.
Speed 83
For too many years, I placed a strong emphasis on a woman being cute, intelligent and a little quirky. It appealed to me and made for very interesting dating. Although all my relationships had only a 9-18 month lifespan (when one or both of us got bored or frustrated), I looked down a little on my friends who married a bunch of Plain Janes, many with only marginal educations.
Recently I changed my view entirely. I now think a successful LTR or marriage is based on things like honesty, patience, and maturity. It’s also being able to stick with someone during long, boring stretches of ordinary life, chores and habits, from taking out the trash to picking someone up from the train station to watching the same sitcoms together on Monday. It’s also about being able to meet life crises, be they healthy, family, financial, or whatever. “Commitment” means sticking with something when the excitement is gone. Or even when danger rises.
Looking at my friends’ marriages from my new perspective, they seem to mostly about changing diapers, dealing with neighborhood, job or family issues, things like that—not collegiate debates about politics or art or culture. That’s how they thrive—not on biting satire (which I now thing is actually harmful to a relationship) or the ability to contrast competing global economic visions.
In retrospect, although I have two graduate degrees and own a small business, I think I had a very immature notion of relationships and marriage.
So although I’m just starting this new plan, I am grateful to EMK for his great advice here.
LC 84
It’s very hard to be an educated, accomplished woman. I’m open to dating men who don’t make as much money as me or have as much education, but in the end, they cannot handle having a woman who is “better than them.” I’ve heard it a thousand times. They compare their success to yours, and if they come up short, they’re out the door (usually with some verbal abuse to cut you down to size). It would be so nice if people actually evaluated each other on their ability to love and provide friendship for their partner, but that is not the case most times. Women are judged on their looks and youth, and men are judged on their wallets. Any attempts to go against society’s rules usually end in much heartache and disaster. I keep hoping to meet that one exception to the rule–one guy who is loving, kind, honorable, and is happy/proud that I’ve worked so hard to be successful.
Ruby 85
Speed #83
Good for you for expanding your criteria, but I think a woman can be cute, intelligent, and a little quirky, and still want an LTR. It’s not as if the only women wanting to settle down are “Plain Janes.” It’s more about looking PAST the exterior to make sure that the interior qualities are present.
hespeler 86
Great post Speed 83.
Karl R 87
Fiona said: (original post)
“He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people”
“For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.”
For generations, educated professional men have been marrying less educated, less successful women. If a successful, professional man wanted to hold out for someone who had his education and professional success, he was almost guaranteed to end up single. There weren’t enough educated, professional women to go around.
Despite this, my parents (and millions of others) managed to find a “good fit” who could be a partner for 50 or more years of marriage.
Men have managed to do this successfully for years. A few women claim it just can’t possibly work. If you’re our equals, you should be equally capable of making a relationship work when your partner has less education and less professional success.
Catherine said: (#21)
“Hmm, now if a size 16 woman thought a man was wonderful I doubt she would make him feel wonderful. What would make him feel wonderful would be a a very attractive, size 8-10 woman at least 10, maybe 20 years younger.”
I love how you’re trying to rationalize your own ineffective dating strategy by pointing out men who pursue an equally unworkable strategy.
When I got back into dating 6 1/2 years ago, the first woman I dated was a size 18, a divorced mother of two and a year older than me. I found her attractive, and it was a great relationship while it lasted. (She was in another serious relationship after things ended between us, and she’s now engaged to marry a third man.)
Even though she broke things off with me, she thought I was a great guy and was perfectly happy to say that to my subsequent girlfriends.
My fiancée is 16 years older than me. She doesn’t have to be a decade younger than me to make me feel wonderful about myself. (And I’ve dated a couple women 11 years younger than me, who also thought I was a great guy, so I have a basis for comparison.)
Of all the women I’ve dated, I’m not marrying the youngest, the hottest, the most fit, the most fashionable, the smartest, the best educated, the richest, the most successful or the funniest.
But she is the easiest to get along with.
Fiona said: (original post)
“It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this.”
Dating is not a meritocracy. This has nothing to do with what you “deserve”. It’s simple cause and effect. If you rule men out for irrelevant criteria, you’re throwing obstacles into your own path. If you put enough obstacles out there, you’ll end up alone.
I don’t care what kind of job she has (or can get). Unless she’s applying for a job in my office, I don’t care what her résumé looks like.
I agree with Fusee (#63). It sounds like status-seeking … wrapped in a rationalization of compatability.
marymary 88
I agree with speed.
I’ve been described as quirky, and have moments of intelligence, yet my relationship with the boyfriend is rather mundane and ordinary. I wouldn’t have it any other way. No more durm and strang for me.
It doesn’t matter if you’re a nobel prize winner or an oscar winner or a president, a relationship is mostly the ordinary bread and butter of life, the connection and intimacy that’s built steadily over time, with a few crises thrown in and some good times. When we accept that we’ll be ready to have a committed relationship, rather than throwing up reasons why he or she doesn’t make the mark. No person on this planet can save us from the fact that daily life is, mostly, often and, blessedly, if we are fortunate, not that exciting!
And that is very okay.
Liz 89
LC EXACTLY!!!!
Joe 90
Ladies, I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh on Tom10. If language is an issue for hm, he’s probably less likely to initiate relationships with immigrant women than American-born women, but if he meets someone and discovers that she’s colloquially fluent in English, I don’t think the fact that she’s an immigrant would stop him from dating her.
nathan 91
Karl 87 “Dating is not a meritocracy. This has nothing to do with what you “deserve”. It’s simple cause and effect. If you rule men out for irrelevant criteria, you’re throwing obstacles into your own path. If you put enough obstacles out there, you’ll end up alone.” I don’t think the criteria being put up by some of the women here are irrelevant. It’s the length of the list, and the lack of flexibility that’s the biggest issue. I fully support Evan’s call for more flexibility, and to realize that degrees and job titles don’t always equate with a happy partnership or one’s level of success and intelligence. At the same time, just dating anyone who is nice and friendly isn’t the answer either.
People rightly point out to the ways in which a lot of what constitutes a long term, committed relationship is everyday stuff. However, you have to have enough in common, enough shared values, interests, and also mutual respect, in order to make it through the slow, dull, and challenging parts. When I look at the marriages in my family from previous generations, including my parents’ siblings – the ones who stuck it out for decades on end – there’s more misery and conflict than love and respect. The best of the marriages were/are much closer to equal in terms of intelligence levels, common interests, and shared values. All three combined. The others had serious imbalances in at least one of those areas, if not more.
It’s seems to me that Fiona and a few others biggest challenge is to move past the idea that specific job X or financial level Y = both a successful person and also a good potential mate. Money and jobs can come and go, especially in the modern economic world we live in. Don’t throw away all your criteria, but look deeper than job titles and money in the bank.
Mimi 92
Your brain during speed dating:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/love-at-first-sight-instant-attraction-brain-region_n_2087843.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
Fiona 93
Nathan I think you’re right.
Karmic Equation 94
Hmmm…I’m a Chinese immigrant, but I arrived here when I was about 6yo, so have no accent (imho) but some of my male friends, including my current boyfriend, tease me about my pronunciation of certain words. My exhusband is caucasian, too. So, personally, I’ve never had an issue with a man committing to me because I’m an immigrant.
That said, the other day, my BF and I went to a Chinese restaurant where the waitress had a strong Chinese accent and made a flirty comment to him. I think that if we had not been paired up, I think he might have asked her out, but I doubt very much he would become her boyfriend, because of her accent. Same thing with my exhubby. I don’t think he would have taken her too seriously because of her accent.
I don’t necessarily think that immigration status is what keeps some men away, but rather perhaps the TYPE of accent you have. For example, I personally HATE Arnold Schwarznegger and Jean Claude Van Damme’s accents, which, sad to say, make me perceive them less educated than they actually are. But I absolutely adore tonny British and Australian accents, which make me perceive those folks as *more* educated than they are.
So perhaps the type of accent you have may make someone perceive your intelligence in a negative light, which, in turn, makes it harder for that person to take you seriously. If that could be your problem, perhaps getting a speech coach could be of help to you. Just a thought.
Helen 95
Karl R wrote of women: “If you’re our equals, you should be equally capable of making a relationship work when your partner has less education and less professional success.”
Karl, your statement presumes that whether the relationship works depends only on the woman. It doesn’t. It also depends on the man. Unfortunately, many men are not okay with their women being more educated and professionally successful than they.
I have to agree with LC and Liz. Certainly not all men have problems with women being more successful in a worldly sense, but I have met many who have been hostile to the notion of a woman being more successful. Prior to marriage, I had the same experience as LC: dating at least two men who expressed hostility re: my education, despite my having no problem whatsoever with their being less educated.
At least one study from Columbia University shows that men prefer to date women who have lower intelligence and lower ambition than they. I’ve never heard of women having problems with dating men who had higher intelligence or ambition. These aren’t the same as educational attainments, but they correlate well.
It takes two to tango. If men want relationships, they’ll need to be okay with dating more highly-educated women, given that this is already the trend in America (more women graduating with bachelor’s degrees than men). Likewise, we women could realize this reality and lower that specific expectation. On both sides, we need to overcome stereotypes for relationships to survive in this country.
Evan Marc Katz 96
Your interpretation, Helen, is interesting. You conclude, “If men want relationships, they’ll need to be okay with dating more highly-educated women”. The focus is on men to change.
Wouldn’t you agree that it would be equally valuable for women to be okay with dating men who are less-educated and wealthy, given that this is the trend?
Liz 97
Agree with Helen and team. I practice law, and married someone for 8 years, with him 13, who had a Masters. Unfortunately it didn’t work, but we were well suited for each other. I speak on circuits, I am young enough, help run a charity, and basically run around doing stuff that makes me feel good about being a human being. I would love for someone to be like lets go out and conquer the world together, but mostly I get “wow,” followed by a weird silence once they figure all of this out by the 4th or 5th date.
I have been dating about a year, and I have dated from a BA to multiple Phds. I have dated someone in between jobs, and CFOs of multi-milion dollar companies. Innately its how I feel around the man I am with, do I feel safe, and is the affection honest and easy. My undergraduate and graduate work isn’t from Ivy League Institutions, nor do I expect my dates work to be. So being “open” to seeing someone seriously that is less educated than me, and less successful isn’t really a problem. Everyone gets a chance that I am attracted to, and I am not setting the bar at 6’2 and beyond handsome (but I workout constantly, take very good care of myself and to be honest I don’t feel moved by a lot of men online). But I can tell you from the trenches, that we may mirror all we want, set realistic expectations in all areas, and be the greatest, most loving, energetic and special person we can be, some men have no desire to consider Long Term Relationships with “their equal.” And I can’t really change my job, and my education. I am a complete girlie girl in every sense outside of my work, but I am still seen as someone in competition. So what is a girl to do?
Karl R 98
Helen said: (#95)
“Certainly not all men have problems with women being more successful in a worldly sense, but I have met many who have been hostile to the notion of a woman being more successful.”
Fiona said: (original post)
“I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.”
If Fiona said the men were hostile towards her (for any reason), I’d tell her to avoid those men. But that’s not the situation she described.
She said the men were “highly unlikely to be a good fit” because they were not “of equivalent professional or educational status” to her.
At the event that Fiona described, there were possibly some men who would be hostile towards her (for the reasons you described) and others who would have no issue with her level of success. Fiona wrote all of them off.
And that’s entirely on Fiona. The men had no control over her decision.
Helen said: (#95)
“If men want relationships, they’ll need to be okay with dating more highly-educated women”
That’s true. And as soon as those men show up saying that they want a relationship, I’ll tell them that they need to be more open-minded.
But Fiona (and most of the women here) are here because they want relationships. So expand your sentence to encompass women as well as men:
If a person wants a relationship, that person needs to become more open-minded about who they’ll accept as a partner.
I got a relationship because I became more open-minded about who I would accept … and it worked … even though most women remained as closed minded as ever.
If you want a relationship, you need to become more open-minded, even if most ment don’t change at all.
If my dating success had relied on women changing, I’d still be single. And therefore, I feel quite comfortable telling you (and Fiona) that you’re likely to remain single as long as your dating strategy relies on someone else changing.
helene 99
When I think about what makes a relationship work, I sometimes think of the analogy of a car. For a car to work, all the important parts have to be functional.They don’t all have to be top-of-the range, but they have to be good ENOUGH, that the car actually goes. My ex-husband was an amazing guy in very many ways – good looking, highly intelligent, great cook, good income, common interests etc..etc… BUT our sexual relationship was hopeless – he just wasn’t really interested. In that respect, he was a like a high-end porsche with a wheel missing. End result: the car doesn’t go.
My current man is different – he’s pretty high spec in some ways: great looking, great in bed, loves me loads, very committed, extremely trustworthy… and pretty reasonable in some other areas too- decent cook,reasonable level of shared interests and values and plans for the future, interesting conversation, reasonably good listener, reasonably affectionate… and not quite so high spec (but good ENOUGH) in other areas – income, prospects. End result: the car goes.
Its easy to be drawn in by a few stellar qualities (particularly if they are on our tick lists) but its how the relationship functions across the board that is important. Sure, we all want a bit of wow factor – just important to make sure that the bits that aren’t so wow are at least liveable with.
Helen 100
Evan wrote: “Wouldn’t you agree that it would be equally valuable for women to be okay with dating men who are less-educated and wealthy, given that this is the trend?”
Yes, Evan, I do agree - that’s what I wrote in my second-to-last sentence in 95.
Karl: same thing. Both sides need to expand their notions of what constitutes an acceptable mate, given the changing reality of society, education, the role (or lack thereof) of children in a family, etc. We are all so stuck in our old-fashioned notions, maybe because of the literature we read, the movies we watch, or observing our parents and others who are older than us. Just as there is wisdom to be gleaned from past generations, so we need to constantly be aware of looking ahead (or at the present).
Dan Murray 101
A man isn’t what he dose for a living, but who he is on the in-side. How he interacts with people around him, how he can bring out the best in you and your life. If you choose to look for love in professional men that’s your call. It’s sound like you need that security in your life. That’s not a bad thing. Though, if you’re turning men down because you think you’re better than them, well, think about hun. Would you liked to be judged by someone who knows nothing about you?
Goldie 102
@ Speed 83:
“Looking at my friends’ marriages from my new perspective, they seem to mostly about changing diapers, dealing with neighborhood, job or family issues, things like that—not collegiate debates about politics or art or culture.”
From my experience (18-year marriage), for a marriage to work, it has to be a combination of both. I will agree that human qualities come first — the two of you are going to do a lot of hard physical work together, support each other through difficult times, and generally have each other’s back. If you cannot trust your partner, if he or she consistently does not carry their weight around the house, no amount of intellect and common interests will save your relationship.
On the other hand, you won’t be changing diapers forever. Kids grow up, move out, and you suddenly find yourself living in an empty house with a stranger. You’ve got to keep those shared interests alive while the kids are young, or else you’ll have a hard time reconnecting with each other after they’ve grown. A lot of them can be pursued together with the children, as a family. While few toddlers are interested in art, politics, or culture, many teenagers are. (As for toddlers, they are interested in learning insane amounts of new things and skills at a crazy speed. If that’s not being intellectually active, I don’t know what is!) I’ve gone to classical concerts, rock concerts, political rallies etc with my kids. Many of my friends have gone to art exhibits and classical concerts with their elementary- and middle-school aged children, together as a whole family. You don’t have to store your brain in a dusty box in the basement for 18 years till your kids are out of the house. You can still use it around them, in fact they will enjoy it. You can run a house, manage finances, raise children and still remain a well-rounded individual — again, your children will thank you for it.
I agree that, in our search, we need to keep our priorities straight and look for a good, kind person with integrity first. This means we’ll have to lower our expectations of intellectual connection, shared interests etc. But IMO these connection and interests still have to be there in some capacity, otherwise the marriage isn’t going to work out.
Lastly, since my own marriage didn’t work out for both of the above reasons (lack of mutual trust and support AND no shared interests), and since I met my (now-ex) husband in college, that we both graduated from, (a top-tier school in our home country, by the way), educational credentials do not automatically mean that you’ll have a connection with a person. This is one of the reasons why I didn’t filter my candidates based on their level of education. Assuming that BS or MA on a person’s profile automatically means you’ll click intellectually, gives one a sense of false security when choosing a candidate.
Reddy 103
I have the same experience as LC and Liz.
I find EMK’s article insulting. Evan, do you really think that we highly educated women with a good career are so shallow that we are unable to look for the things that really matter? We know our value however and we are not prepared to enter a relationship with someone who is not in our league (contrary to some men who have such low standards that they are capable of hooking up with a monkey who wears a skirt).
I am flexible and openminded, and I have a lot of love to give. But for me it is also about how a man makes me FEEL. If he gives me the feeling that I had to settle for second choice, the relationship will not work! For the record, second choice is not necessarily about his degree or about his money but about the fact whether he can love me, education and career included.
I once read a comment about that Lori Gottlieb’s book in which a woman said that she was unable to live in a room of which the ceiling was too low. I think this metaphore expresses perfectly why accomplished women have a number of standards. Yes, maybe we will end up single but that seems way better than being miserable in a relationship with a man that gives you the feeling you never really wanted him…
Evan Marc Katz 104
@Reddy – “Evan, do you really think that we highly educated women with a good career are so shallow that we are unable to look for the things that really matter?”
Yes.
Go buy Lori Gottlieb’s book and thank me when you decide to change your tune.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/about/writing.php
Karmic Equation 105
Women want status the way men want beauty. Women are shallow for status and men are shallow for beauty.
The difference is that while men “settling” for less than a supermodel is considered “the way it should be” in most women’s eyes; women don’t expect to settle for less than the status they seek in a mate. Why is the man wrong and the woman not wrong? I don’t get this.
I’m Ivy-league educated and make good money. I go out of my way to not seem like either when I’m out and about with friends or dates, not because I’m ashamed, but because those two qualities are pretty irrelevant to start off a relationship. A man isn’t going to love me more for having been Harvard educated. If he doesn’t know what I make, he can be himself around me and I can better evaluate whether he’s worth expending my relationship energy on.
@Reddy
I don’t think the fact that you’re well-educated or have a good career are what’s keeping you single. Your tone in your post is highly unattractive. I don’t think a man educated or not would want to be with someone who talks like you do for very long. If you’re hot they might bang you before disappearing, but they aren’t going to stick around to be with someone who seems so sour.
Rochelle 106
“. A man isn’t going to love me more for having been Harvard educated. ”
I agree Karmic Equation. I don’t really talk about my education and degrees much with men on dates, unless they ask me about these things, which they always do at some point. But making it the focus in all convos with guys or practically bragging is useless and it isn’t necessary for forming an emotional connection with a man. Talking about work is so commonplace and mundane, it’s what they do with other guys already. In the same way, I have my girlfriends, co-workers and professional networking to talk about such things already. Sure most men may admire and find my profession intriguing but they don’t care all that much. That’s just one part of my life, and there’s way more to me as a person than that..the same way there is way more to a man than his education and career. Unfortunately, a lot of us women, including myself at one point, have been mislead by society to believe that men nowadays sometimes fall in love for these reasons. i.e. “he should love me because I’m successful”
You also make a great point about how many men “settle” for non-supermodel looking women, and women expect them to “settle” for “less than supermodel”. Yet the same women are not willing to ditch the checklist that includes “must have a phd and make a 6 fig salary” I never thought of it that way.
Essie 107
I use to be one of those unaware, ultra picky women. I’m in my mid 30′s. My continued failure to find the right guy forced me to critically reevaluate myself. I realized that I had a lot of insecurities and low self esteem.
I didn’t really want anyone to truly get to know me- so those “nice guys” who were available seemed just never good enough and those hot alpha guys who were happy to sleep with me, but would never commit, continued to cause me despair.
I’m now in a place where I’m not bitter or frustrated by dating and feel confident I’ve found a great guy.
So how did I do it?
1. I made a greater effort to look the best that I could and stopped judging men for being shallow.
2. I started accepting dates from men whom i felt were completely not in my league.
3. I kept my focus on whether or not the guy would accept my worse traits and who would make me feel safe to be vulnerable.
This is why those three things worked in helping me make the shift:
1. I actually had quite a bit of cosmetic work done by a very skilled plastic surgeon. I look young and natural. Better diet and exercise also helped. I accepted the fact that men are visual creatures. If you are a successful professional with the means to buy your own house, eat at fancy restaurants, then you have the means to make your self look better. It’s a more effective strategy than bemoaning the fact that men want younger, prettier women. BUT, it is not everything and I also had to make other changes as well…
2. Though I looked better, I still had self esteem issues hidden under the guise of self entitlement. I started accepting dates from: men in construction, overweight men, men who were totally not my type, men who were shorter etc. etc..
At first, it felt like wasted time. But I needed to do things differently if I was going to get a different result. Gradually, I discovered that who I dated was not a reflection of me as an individual. I started to share my insecurities with the fat guys. I started to see that a lot of these guys had good hearts. And most importantly, I started to let go of my mental check list and was surprised to find myself having FUN with some of these men.
These so called “men out of my league” were the very ones who help me recognized that I could be loved, flaws and all.
3. Using what I learned from dating men I once thought wouldn’t be a match, I approached professional men in a totally different way. Their credentials didn’t matter anymore, but their integrity did. And I allowed myself to be vulnerable and authentic. I no longer cared about selling my most “impressive traits”.
The net result of all of this? Professional men my age became more interested in pursuing me. Doctors, Lawyers, Bankers….But by this point, I didn’t care so much about status. Eventually I did meet a guy- A Graphic Designer- and we clicked. He is a professional, but not pulling in 6 figures. But he’s cute, my age and most importantly he’s got a good heart. It’s still in the early stages of the relationship, but I am certain I would not have appreciated him 6 months ago, when i was still chasing the “perfect guy”.
As for Evan’s point about women being shallow, I would like to add that often this shallowness comes from insecurity issues. Until you address your vulnerability, you will never find true love.
.
Reddy 108
Evan, sorry to hear that the highly educated women you met were shallow. Could this evaluation of yours possibly have something to do with the fact that these women were not interested in you? Or wanted an equal relationship without having to look at you in admiration and having to stroke your ego?
.
It seems to me that few things irritate men more than women who refuse to lower their standards rather than start a relationship with a man who does not appeal to them. Why this irritation? Don’t we have the right to decide on our own standards? You say: “Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.” Why should the same not be true for women?
Just to give a few examples of things I am not willing to compromise on and noone will convince me that these are shallow criteria:
- a man who is honest, faithful and reliable: that goes without saying
- a man with personal hygiene: taking a shower in the morning, using some deo, brushing your teeth. I expect a man in his 40-ies to know these basic personal hygiene principles. And yes, there are some who don’t know them.
- a man who is free from addictions (to drugs, alcohol, porn,…): if you drink 4 glasses of wine during a Sunday afternoon date which lasts 3 hours and then get in your car, you can forget about a 2nd date.
- a man who is in reasonable shape: I get that you no longer have the body of a 20 year old, the same is valid for me. However, although I don’t mind a few extra pounds, I am not attracted to a man who does not do any sport and does not pay any attention to what he eats. This comes from a lady in her 40-ies who is attractive and slim.
- a man who is financially independent: I have a job with a comfortable income and having to support a man is one of my biggest fears. Why? Because I have seen horror situations where a man managed to get alimony from the woman who had been his breadwinner. I don’t need a guy who provides for me, I am very good at doing that myself. But I will not provide for a man.
- A man with higher education: I have been with guys with less education than me when I was younger and it simply did not work. It feels like speaking to someone who has another mother tongue: you immediately limit your vocabulary. That’s OK for a 2 hours conversation but not for a life together.
- a man I want to make love to: He does not have to be a looker but I have to want to see him naked, maybe not at the first date but somewhere along the line. And this has nothing to do with being 6 foot tall. I just don’t want him to be smaller than I am (I am 5’57 so that’s not asking for too much). When he faces my boobs rather than my eyes when he is standing in front of me then he is too small
- last but not least: a man who loves my heart, body and brain and does not expect me to be some 2012 version of a Stepford wife! I am no Plane Jane and it is impossible to turn me into one…
Now as for Lori Gottlieb’s book, I have no intention to read it as it is not inviting at all on the basis of the comments I read about it and the interviews I read with her. She does not come across as a positive happy person. Also, it is difficult to believe her approach since as far as she knows she is still single…
Reddy 109
I want to add this. Instead of complaining about how women refuse to settle men should maybe up their game. Steve Nakamoto says in the following in his book “Men are like fish.”:
BECOME A BIG FISH: The path of self-improvement also applies to men. A smart man does all he can to become the kind of man that a woman truly wants. That means a man should: get a fresh start, maximize his talents, develop his game, play with more heart, and move up in class. Don’t get “thrown back” for not measuring up to a sensitive, intelligent woman’s standards.
We women throw men back because they don’t give us the feeling that they can make us happy…
Ruby 110
@Essie: since when is mid-thirties so “old” that one needs extensive plastic surgery?
I agree many men don’t care so much about a woman’s income and job. However, I looked at Match.com recently, and was surprised by the number of men listing an income cut-off in their profiles, as well as at least a bachelor’s degree for their dates. I think that well-educated men listing at least a college degree is quite common. And these tend to be men who are doing well financially (most made 6 figures). So I think that, for many of these men, income and earning power do matter. Despite what’s being said here, many older men do not want to be financially responsible for a partner. I’ve also dated smart men who’ve told me that they wouldn’t seriously consider a woman whom they didn’t find intelligent enough. One male friend of mine told me that was because he didn’t want to have “dumb” kids!
Evan Marc Katz 111
@Reddy: Your insults are ridiculous. But I will waste my time answering you anyway.
1. I didn’t say that all the highly educated women I met were shallow. I said that the women who expressed themselves like YOU were shallow. That’s a small, but meaningful percentage.
2. Candidly, the vast majority of women I met were interested in me. The ones who were not undoubtedly had their valid reasons, but that doesn’t make them shallow. What does make some women shallow (or short-sighted or difficult – choose your angle) is not their feelings about me, but rather their condescending feelings about men. Your utter lack of humility is astounding. And the reason you’ll struggle with men is not because no one is good enough for you, but because of that lack of humility alone. I mean, just typing this sentence out loud is absurd: “there are NO men who are good enough for Reddy. She is better than ALL of them.” That’s tacitly what you’re suggesting. Your list of good qualities is endless. You seem to have no acknowledged flaws and weaknesses. And you’re very quick to point out the many failings of men. We’re all clear. But don’t be too shocked if men don’t find that attitude attractive.
3. My wife and I HAVE an equal relationship. She looks at me with admiration and strokes my ego and I do the same for her. That’s what people in love DO! I know you’re too sophisticated and worldly to do something as awful as make your man feel good, but guess what, that’s all we want out of a partner. If you’d rather tell him what’s wrong with him because you’re “just being honest”, then, once again, you can’t be too surprised when men don’t find that appealing. It’s not “Stepford” to treat your partner like your favorite person in the world. It’s common sense.
4. I support my wife financially. So do millions of men. Why is it such a horror if you make more money than your husband? Oh, that’s right: because you want all the benefits of equality without truly believing that men and women are equal. Well if we’re equal, then you better come around to what men figured out years ago: you marry for LOVE, not for money. You marry because someone is pleasant and happy and supportive. You don’t marry for the laundry list that you posted above (even if none of it is particularly objectionable in its own right).
5. I have no idea how educated you are, but just because you have a masters doesn’t make you smarter than a guy who has a BA – or, for that matter, a guy who didn’t go to college. Unless you’ve met all of the men on the planet, it’s pretty arrogant to say that you are, de facto, a better conversationalist than anyone who chose not to pursue an advanced degree.
6. The irony of you refusing to read Lori Gottlieb’s book because she’s single and doesn’t come across as a positive happy person, well, I don’t really have to complete that thought, do I?
DLR 112
“Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter or funnier. ”
You are right, Evan, they don’t.
Men just care if you’re younger, thinner, prettier and physically fit. These are their main standards to determine if you are good enough to date. Women have their standards, too.
If a woman should be willing to date a guy with only a HS Diploma when she has an MBA, then a man should be able to date a “5″ when he makes $200K per year. But we know that’s not likely to happen, don’t we? A guy who earns $200K is going to shoot for at least an 8. Heck, even poor guys shoot for hot women!
So I think it’s only fair to say that an educated woman is equally “entitled” to an educated man just as men who make a lot of money feel “entitled” to the most desirable women from a physical standpoint.
Reproaching this woman in indirect or subtle ways by subtly implying she should simply get off her high horse isn’t fair. She can get off her high horse the minute a wealthy guy starts dating a 5.
Evan Marc Katz 113
@DLR – Last I checked, this was a site that gave advice to women. As such, my advice to women is to get over their impressive bodies and credentials and realize that men will marry you for the way you make him feel inside. If I were to give advice to men, I would advise them on the same thing – get over your obsession with youth and beauty and choose a woman of character.
At the end of the day, there are the small percentage of men who get the women who are physical 10′s and a small percentage of women who get the men who are career 10′s.
And the rest of us need to learn to compromise. I’m presuming that you and Reddy need to compromise, just like I did. If you’d rather be alone than compromise, that’s perfectly fine by me.
marymary 114
DLR
I do know a wealthy man who, after years of womanising, married a woman who was a single mother in her forties. They went on to have two daughters.
another even wealthier man (think racehorse owner) married my friend who is a solid uk size fourteen, not plus size but certainly not thin, with severe acne scarring.
Reddy, you can get off that high horse. Must be lonely up there.
Essie 115
Ruby @110
I had a nose job, liposuction around the waist, an eye lift and injectable fillers. It wasn’t necessary, but it did make me look a LOT better. It’s not that I recommend it for everyone, but looking better got my foot in the door more easily. But ultimately, if I didn’t change my attitude, improved looks wouldn’t have made that much of a difference. At 35, I’m not that old, but looking closer to late 20′s gives me more options with men closer to my own age.
elli 116
I agree with the opinion that in many cases it is perhaps more comfortable and easier for a well-educated woman to date a man who is a little less educated, intellectual, sophisticated, etc., because such a man, if truly interested in a woman, might appreciate her qualities much more than her equal and is therefore more persevering in courting her. As a result she can feel much more valued and safer in a relationship.
DLR 117
EVAN: When has a successful guy ever been *forced* to make a *major* compromise as far as a woman’s looks and age are concerned? By “compromise” I am not saying a 10 verses an 8, I am talking an 8,9,10 verses a 5? Successful men do not have to compromise, at least not by much. Even if he gets an 8, he is still with a hot woman. But we women have to be willing to compromise, some times to a great extent, or we will wind up alone or unhappy, is that what you’re saying? I have an MBA and I am delighted to date guys with a BA/BS who make considerably less than a six figure income. I have no have problem with a reasonable compromise. But will I date the guy with only the HS Diploma? I’ll never say never, but let’s face, probably not, just like a successful guy does not have to “tolerate” a 5, so therefore he doesn’t. And thank you for making me really think about this matter, because yes, I have concluded I would definitely be happier alone that making such a large compromise.
Soul 118
Reddy # 108:
Sorry to say, but YOU DO NOT come across as a positive happy person either….
Evan Marc Katz 119
@DLR - Show me one place in 6 years of writing this blog that I’ve told any woman to make an unreasonable compromise. Until then, you’re only arguing with yourself and turning compromise into something black or white. He’s brilliant…or stupid. He’s rich…or poor. He’s handsome…or ugly. Never said any of them. So you’re fighting with a straw man, darling.
DLR 120
EVAN: Implying that you might want to give give a laundry operator a shot if you are a successful woman with an advanced degree is an unreasonable compromise in my book, maybe not yours. Fair enough. Maybe you’ll go so far as to state you never intended to imply that. Fair enough, again. But it seems to me that such an argument would simply fall into the realm of semantics.
Karmic Equation 121
@DLR
I think you might be missing a key point.
Is a guy who has a BA/BS capable of loving you MORE than a guy who only has a HS diploma? How well and how much a man can love you is independent of his degrees.
Are you really sure that a guy who has a BA/BS is smarter than a guy with only a HS diploma? Please, we know plenty of career politicians who have degrees who are total idiots. I personally know know a carpenter who was a rocket scientist in the army (no formal degrees…but he did work on rockets!)
Maybe it wasn’t intellect or drive that prevented him from completing higher education. For example, how would you know if a brilliant man didn’t give up an education to take care of his family? You don’t unless you date him…And if you date a man without formal higher-education, and you find him lacking, that DOESN’T mean all men without higher-education are lacking in the same way. Higher education doesn’t equate to higher character.
Date the man…not his credentials. You’ll be happier that way…and dating is so much less pressurized if you date with the intent to get to know someone’s character as opposed to only dating those you already perceive as worth knowing based on their credentials.
Love is blind and oftentimes make less money than you if you are a successful woman. If that disturbs you, well, not much I say to help you there.
K 122
@DLR I agree with you. I’m fine with making reasonable compromises. I have had relationships with guys who have a college degree and make less than me. When that hasn’t bothered them I don’t care either. I’d love to meet someone in that range. I don’t hold my advanced degree/6 figure standard as a minimum in dating. But I do want someone with similiar life experiences and ability to afford the same kind of life today.
DLR 123
KARMIC EQUATION: If love is blind, then why do I rarely see successful men with women who aren’t very attractive? Are they dating the woman…not her age and looks?? If a woman should give a lesser education/lesser income man a shot, then a man should give a not younger/less good looking woman a shot, right? Wouldn’t we all be happier this way? I consider dating a guy who is much less educated like dating a guy who is 20 years or more older, just too far out of my range. It’s really nothing personal. The older could be a great guy, but I still don’t want to date my father!
Evan Marc Katz 124
(You’re still not listening, DLR…No one is asking you to date someone 20 years older…Stop with the straw man argument…)
From the original post:
“You painted a black and white world, Fiona. It wasn’t that he was less educated than you. It’s that he was a laundry operator. It’s not that a man is older than you, it’s that he’s a generation older than you. It’s not that he’s a few pounds overweight, it’s that he’s obese. All of your examples are extreme, but not all men are extreme examples of anything.”
DLR 125
K: Amen sister!
Barry 126
I must say that I am heartened by a number of female responses here, especially marymary, who usually makes a lot of sense.
I now feel somewhat vindicated in holding my views, despite the anger and lashback from women who will not face reality.
Thank you to Frimmel, who provided the link to a woman who has thought through the issues (owning your shit) and arrived at the same conclusion, and indeed has gone much further.
I am amazed at the audacity of some bloggers, who have no shame in proclaiming their sense of entitlement. Men recoil from the stench of this.
DLR ”Men just care if you’re younger, thinner, prettier and physically fit”
Well if this is true, surely their ability to “win” women like this will depend on their level of value to the opposite sex, which you know to be educated, wealthy men.
BUT on your definition of equal it should be men who are younger and thinner. You know that isn’t the case.
It therefore follows that your educational and professional attainment in no way makes you an ‘equal’ to a man with similar credentials.
You women cannot get your head around this. Forgive the over statement, but they are WORTHLESS.
Keep repeating until it finally sinks in.
You are no more entitled to a successful man than a waitress is.
You are correct, a successful man doesnt have to compromise, and neither does a young beautiful women.
Everyone else DOES.
And I agree with Evan, those who are more mature, will increasingly value character. I have dated obese women, and I am quite successful.
Essie 127
DLR @ 123
To be honest, with the type of attitude you have, it’s not likely that a laundry room operator or a man 20 years your senior would think you are such a great catch
And in that case, you would have no choice but to be alone.
Fiona 128
Evan, although you argue that kindness is more important than intellect, as I understand it, although correct me if I am wrong., you are not arguing, as some would seem to understand it, that intelligence is irrelevant. Smart women are always going to prefer smart men – I would not say that is shallow but rather a sign of a deep desire to connect. Shallow for me would be smart women goes for cute but dumb guy and couldn’t care less about conversation.
Evan Marc Katz 129
Fiona, you’re watching the act of people putting words in my mouth because they’re afraid of compromising on ANYTHING.
No one said intelligence didn’t matter. Or looks. Or money. Or anything you think is important.
But, objectively, if Every. Single. Thing. can become a dealbreaker, then you’re gonna have a lot harder time finding a deal.
I compromised on what I thought I was looking for in terms of age, intellectual curiosity, religion, geography, and politics. Did I choose a woman who was 60, illiterate, goes to church every week, lives in Nebraska and worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh? Not even close. I hit the fucking jackpot. But I compromised. I see no evidence that the DLRs and Reddy’s of the world are willing to do so, despite their protests to the contrary. Otherwise, would we even be having this conversation based on my original even-handed blog post?
So please, stop listening to the black/white fear-based worldview that compromising is dating someone entirely inappropriate for you. If anything, it’s about getting out of your own way and recognizing that you don’t need to be with the male version of yourself to be happy.
Fiona 130
Evan, I sympathise. I think people misunderstand sometimes that things aren’t as black and white as painted. For me geography, politics (assuming we are not talking fascism or communism), religion (assuming no extremism) have never featured on my list and I am prepared to be flexible on age (give or take 10 years). I guess I am a less willing to compromise on education because in my generation university in the UK, unlike the US, was totally free of charge so it is hard for me to understand why anyone who was bright and wanted to get on in life wouldn’t have gone for it unless they were a successful entrepreneur. There are of course exceptions, but in the majority of cases, those who didn’t either couldn’t or weren’t interested. Either way, as a woman who got educated, lived and worked abroad, it is pretty hard to imagine spending my life with a guy who hasn’t been anywhere or done anything regardless of whether that is through lack of ability of lack of desire. It doesn’t mean those guy are bad guys. It doesn’t mean they aren’t loving. It does mean maybe they aren’t a good fit for me. For my faults I would probably rather date a guy from another western country that has travelled and been educated than a Brit who hasn’t.
DLR 131
BARRY: Are you stating that my educational attainment is worthless to a man? Correct me if I misunderstand. Because after recently meeting a guy, talking for an hour about our backgrounds before agreeing to a date, I asked him what he thought based on our preliminary get to you know you conversation. His response? “TWO degrees?? … BINGO!!” As if he’d hit the jackpot or something.
Evan Marc Katz 132
DLR, I’ll jump in for Barry. Just because a man is foolish enough to agree with you that two degrees matter does not mean that they actually do. It just means he’s under the same illusion that you are – higher degrees equal better partnerships. They don’t. Selflessness, generosity, sensitivity, high emotional IQ matter infinitely more. A PhD is merely icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
Reddy 133
Evan, please tell me where I said that I don’t want to make more money than my husband. If you read my posts carefully, you will have to admit that I am not saying that. I am only saying that I want a partner who is financially independent because I don’t want to support my partner financially. The reason for that is very simple: I don’t mind taking the risk that my heart gets broken by a relationship but I want to keep my bank account intact!
I am glad that you are able to admit that nothing on my list is particularly objectionable because nothing on my list is. So where on earth do you get that I lack humility and where do I pretend that I have an endless list of good qualities. These are all things that you deduct from what I write but these things come from you and from your prejudices and hangups and have nothing to do with me. If there is anything I am not, it is shallow. I have always taken my relationships very seriously and have always known that compatibility and shared values are key. Consequently it is pretty unique to meet someone with whom things can work out. You cannot make no matter what nice guy your partner and then “start to treat him as your favourite person”. It is the other way round: someone first has to be your favourite person and then you can start treating him/her as your partner…
Reddy 134
Fiona, if it is of any value for you, I want to tell you that I totally understand you. My advice would be to not sell yourself short. Speeddating events are not the best way to meet someone in my opinion. My experience with them was that in order to have the same number of men and women, the agency who organised the events sometimes asked men to come who did not belong to the targeted age bracket or not really looking for a relationship.
I think the dating sites are a better way of meeting people, but you need perseverance. For the rest I think it is best to go with the flow, enjoy your life and regularly do new things on your own, like taking a course or travel. I do many things on my own and I very often meet very interesting people. Not necessarily potential partners but people with good energy who inspire me.
Barry 135
Fiona
I cannot accept your value judgments. You are starting from the position of what you desire, and trying to justify your unreasonable expectations.
I am also from the UK. I did get higher education, but this was against my parents wishes. I came from a working class council estate, where my parents expected me to go to work to bring in money for them.
Any success I have is from intellect and determination and not education.
Also hard work and education are in no way guaranteed to bring you success. Luck plays a part.
I have been able to travel the world, but only because I was made redundant from my job.
In the real world, shit happens. What if you find the guy who is the right ‘fit’ and he becomes ill and cannot work again ?
And lets not forget that successful guys do not have such stringent requirements. They are not looking for you.
I find your rationale completely ridiculous.
DLR 136
And BARRY: speaking of audacious, it’s pretty dismissive and audacious to to state that education is WORTHLESS in all CAPS to those who worked their ass off working full time jobs while putting themselves through undergrad school and MBA school like myself.
Barry 137
DLR
I was being audacious, and it was an overstatement (which I acknowledged) to make the point.
With regards to a career, education is far from worthless of course.
But, if a woman works her ass off to obtain an MBA solely to attract a mate, she has completely wasted her time.
Fiona 138
Barry, it doesn’t really matter whether you accept them or not. My values are my values. you are so hostile that I can only take everything you say with a big pinch of salt. I think it is perfectly reasonable to seek someone I have some things in common with. You have never met me and you do not know what men are looking for me so don’t tell me that successful men aren’t looking for me. You aren’t but that is no loss to me.
Morris 139
I like the idea that most of us have to compromise. It’s true but I think successful women might get the shorter end of the stick. I read above about successful men not having to compromise on youth and beauty yet successful women having to compromise on education and financial success.(Just for this post I’m defining success as education and income. I don’t believe this to be true.)
Like it or not we need to throw statistics in the mix. How many successful men are out there? How many young pretty women? To be blunt it shouldn’t be a surprise that successful men don’t need to compromise in this area.
How many successful women are out there? … it’ doesn’t really matter. They want a successful man. The same man that has plenty of options. You may or may not fall in the pool of women those successful men want to have a relationship with.
What I’m trying to say is. Successful men have already created a large pool of women to date. Successful women need to do the same. It might be hard to swallow but numbers matter. And in this case they don’t work for successful women wanting only successful men.
Tom10 140
Reddy
“Don’t we have the right to decide on our own standards?”
Your list of requirements in a man is actually perfectly reasonable.
DLR
“His response? TWO degrees??… BINGO!!! As if he’d hit the jackpot or something”
Unfortunately this is the oldest trick in the book. He just said what he thought you wanted to hear. Men really don’t care if you have ten degrees, but we let on we do, because we know that women care about their achievements.
“men should give a not younger/less good looking woman a shot, right? Wouldn’t we all be happier this way?”
I agree with you 100% here, however, this is a blog to advise women not men. As Evan keeps saying, you can’t change the behaviour of men; you can only change your own. In fact if I was going to advise other men, I would simply say: get better educated!
I don’t think Barry meant your education is worthless in itself, he meant it’s a worthless trait when trying to attract a man (although ‘worthless’ might be a bit strong).
DLR 141
REDDY & FIONA: IMO, reading over your posts (and mine), it seems people who are defensive and very critical over your posts are pretty touchy about the subject. Maybe they were passed over or perceived themselves to be passed over due to not having enough education or income by some woman’s standards at some point in their lives. Who knows, just speculating. A lot of guys judge *themselves* against education, income and occupation requirements and if they fall or fell short at some point in their lives, they might become rather touchy and defensive about the issue.
DLR 142
TOM 10: “Unfortunately this is the oldest trick in the book. He just said what he thought you wanted to hear. Men really don’t care if you have ten degrees, but we let on we do, because we know that women care about their achievements.”
I admit I suspect you are correct, at least in this case. After he expressed delight over my two degrees, I never heard about it again – not once! Instead, he told me I was gorgeous many, many times during multiple dates. Maybe he thought I’d want to hear that, too, but if he also thought I wanted to hear that my degrees are awesome, what made him stop telling me after just one exclamation? Why not tell me repeatedly? He was preoccupied with my looks, not my education!
Raina 143
The reason why there are a lot of insulting comments being launched between the EMK and women who ‘don’t want to compromise’ is because I think that EMK has not specifically defined what would be a reasonable loosening of a successful woman’s standards if she’s serious about attracting a mate. To be honest, as a woman with a Masters degree, I would never date a laundry operator, either. I don’t think Reddy’s list of requirements is all that loathsome.
Reddy, read Rachel Greenwald’s book about how to find a husband after the age of 35 (I don’t know your age, but her advice is great no matter how old you are). Only you can define how much you are willing to bend your standards. You can set a floor of what you’d be willing to accept, your ‘sweet spot’ (as it were), and then your ceiling (this is a more aspirational and perhaps ‘shallow’ goal) and then you will be able to date more men than those who just fit a narrow list.
Unlike EMK, I don’t agree that you should entertain all comers. Time is limited, and you absolutely need to use the guideposts of educational and income attainment to help you navigate what type of person would be right for you – so definitely never ever discount educational achievement. But set the minimum educational attainment you are willing to accept and the maximum that you’d like, and date within those parameters. After all, people do judge you all the time based on your achievements, and they are a part of you. So this means if your potential man is a machinist, is he the best? If he’s a nurse, is awesome at what he does? If he’s not formally educated, is he still ambitious and wants to learn or be a pioneer in whatever he does? So, I think dating an alpha plumber, electrician, or someone willing to be the best at what he does (even if he makes less than you) would have the ‘alpha’ energy most women are looking for.
I did date a man who was a very successful screenwriter with only a high school education, but what I liked about him was his drive and willingness to be successful in his field. He was very alpha despite lack of education.
I also dated a bike mechanic who was younger than me, no education, and it was boring as hell after a while. He was shorter, but fit. He was super sweet and treated me like gold, but intellectually, I was beyond bored. I lived in LA for a long time, so you’re always meeting guys with good hearts without a penny in their pockets. Honestly, these are not good relationship material kind of men. You’ll end up forgiving their lack of achievement and if it doesn’t work out, maybe you had some nice times, but this kind of man never made me feel like a woman. I’m married now to a creative type man, and I like him because he’s alpha. The betas didn’t keep me that interested after a while.
So, even if he has less formal education than you, it’s important that he’s striving, not just surviving and wants to be great at what he does. I love supporting a man like this, but my bike mechanic boyfriend was a mess, and I do not do well with betas with no direction or ambition, and thus, didn’t marry one. You don’t want to marry a puppy because a man has got to make you feel like a woman. Some of the betas just feel like adoring children, and that can never be sexy over the long haul because inside every alpha woman is a woman who wants a man strong enough so she can let go and be vulnerable, and unfortunately, the more successful you are as a woman, the man who’s strong enough for you has to be accomplished in whatever field he’s in so you can feel like you can relax – that’s why women seek out alphas. We need their strength in a way so we can know that we’re okay, he’s in charge, and we can be vulnerable and let him take the lead. With my bicycle mechanic buddy, I could never relax – he just wasn’t alpha enough, and I did not enjoy paying for his dinners and entertainment. He didn’t make me feel like a woman. I would rather treat an aspiring alpha to a meal and feel that it was time and money well spent. Plus it’s more exciting to encourage the dreams and ambitions of an alpha than to have a puppy dog waiting for you at home. The puppy has no ambition and being with them gets old fast.
So many guys can fill this role of alpha if you just get beyond the simplistic thinking of ‘makes more money than me = alpha”. If he’s the kind of dude into nutrition, he’s got to want to be the next David Wolfe; if he’s into construction, then he’s got to have his own business; if he’s into nursing, then he’s the go-to nurse that everyone admires; if he’s a teacher, he’s a kick-ass teacher. Even if he doesn’t hit his goals, he needs to have them and he needs to be stretching himself. So, regardless of the money he makes, he needs to be strong enough in his own direction so that you can let go. But betas who don’t know how to step up so you can relax are not a long term recipe for happiness imho.
Helen 144
Tom10 #140, you brought up a good point that I hope doesn’t get lost in the shuffle.
We women shouldn’t care about educating ourselves for the purpose of getting a man. We should do it for every other reason in the world that an education is important: expanding your mind, improving your skill set, and increasing your chances of financial security and an enjoyable career.
Why should it matter to anyone whether a romantic prospect is interested or not in our degrees? I don’t think a man would care if a woman didn’t pay much attention to his having a master’s degree. Why should a woman care if a man doesn’t notice?
It makes me wonder if we women in general care far too much about men’s approval. Let your degrees, your accomplishments, your talents, your hobbies be their own reward to you. Don’t make it a requirement that men like you more for them. You’ll be doing yourself and men a favor.
Ruby 145
Barry #137
“But, if a woman works her ass off to obtain an MBA solely to attract a mate, she has completely wasted her time.”
Do you honestly think that’s why women get advanced degrees? Seriously, Essie’s (#115) extensive plastic surgeries would be cheaper and easier than that.
Nic 146
I am reading this thread and thought I should throw in my 2 cents based on my experience with dating. Evan is right. Men do what they want to do. I dated an attorney in his early 40s. He wants athletic, driven and motivated (he wasn’t specific with degrees, income and such) and someone he is physically attracted to. And since I do what I want to do. I dated him for a year. Not once we spoke about degrees and accomplishments. I decided to move on and we stay friends. Our fondest memory was at Walmart buying $2 flip-flops
Then I got asked out by a 55 year old, short, overweight plumber by trade who owns his own plumbing company. And since I do what I want to do. I went out with him and had fun. No second date but we are friends and he does my as needed plumbing work 
. Then I met my current beau at the running trail across the hospital I work. We laugh, talk, wide-eyed I gab over stuff, he listens and laughs until his jaws hurt, we had smoothies, coffee, brunch post running. We kept seeing each other at the running trail. Perhaps 3rd week into it he said he has proven he is not a running trail stalker 
can we have a real meal. And since I do what I want to do, I said yes to dinner and that is when I found out he is a Neuro-surgeon. Nothing has changed. Our jobs, education, income, accomplishments are perks, icing on the cake just like what Evan said. Have fun, be flexible, be open to possibilities. N. =)
marymary 147
Nic 146
yep
if you had been qualifying your running friend even subconsciously he would have likely run off. you might not have been as open and fun if you’d been holding him up to the checklist. Or thinking that all men are bastards.
Enjoy the men you actually meet rather than complain that you’re not meeting wonder boy. Ironically, that’s your best chance of meeting a wonderboy, when you’re enjoying yourself and being interested and warm to others. It’s no loss.
Plenty of love to go around!
a good man really is less impressed by your achievements and even looks than he is with your heart and soul. Extend the same courtesy to him. Yes there are shallow people but they are quite easily avoided if you don’t buy into their thinking, if you can call it thinking.
I compromised, my boyfriend compromised. We are not a pair of poor, fugly, pathetic, losers, really. I think he is a catch and vice versa.
Still, a neuro surgeon!
Ps and even poor fugly losers manage to couple up. lid for every pot.
Barry 148
Women really have got themselves into a complete mess.
They have grasped the opportunity to rise to the top of professions which in the past were just the preserve of men.
They define self worth in terms of what they have achieved in their careers.
In the past they may have valued themselves in the reflected glow of the achievements of their husbands. They still want that too.
What you see in these posts is a dawning sense of horror that those attributes that conferred value in society, may have little or even negative mating value in the eyes of the opposite sex.
When you pride yourself on being an 9 when you are actually a 4, you can understand the reluctance to accept what is being suggested to you.
Its just too much for the ego to take.
Recently I had a stay in hospital. I enjoyed chatting with the female doctors as an intellectual peer. I knew that they had undergone years of intensive study to get where they were. I admired their self assurance.
That did not make me go ‘Wow’
There was however another group of females that did elicit that response – the nurses.
Their kindness, gentleness, dedication, hard work and obvious desire to bring about a recovery in their patients. Wow.
They work long hours for poor pay. Many are not from my native country.
Who cares – I thought they were lovely, and I told them that.
Evan has said it often enough. These are the traits that men look for in women. Why are we still arguing ?
Fiona 149
I think that Tom is right in that men generally don’t care all that much about the degrees that a woman has. I have found in general though that intelligent men do tend to prefer intelligent women. If I look at my male friends in my profession I haven’t seen one that married a hot young waitress for all Barry’s suggestions that being hot and being young are all that matter. They have all married intelligent women in a similar age bracket that also happen to be well educated. Even my intelligent male gay friend have settled with other intelligent guys. We all need to learn what we are prepared to compromise on and what not.
I might relax my education requirements a bit although I am not going prepared to throw it out of the window altogether nor to lower the intelligence requirement at all.
Soul 150
It had never occurred to me that things could be so complicated. Now I wonder why a man would want to date a so-called “successful” woman?
Most men are attracted to feminine qualities: radiance, light heartedness, beauty (in all its aspects), peace, and fun! If education has ripped you off of your beauty, you are not attractive any more, and it is almost certain that you are not attractive for an alpha successful man… Even if you look good, he will quickly find out that you are not *beauty full*, and he will be gone after 1 or 2 dates!!!!
PS: On a funny note, EMK, I now understand why “successful” women need a very special dating coach!
Soul 151
#Nic 146
Great story !!!!
…. and full of philosophical/spiritual wisdom: let go ! let your hair down and have fun! in the end, you may very well end up with what you wanted ! (but it will not be the most important, only icing on the cake!!!)
Susan61 152
I remember about 20 years ago asking a male friend to tell me honestly if he met me what would be his take? He said he would enjoy being with me as I’m fun and that I’m attractive but he would be concerned that I was not on a “career track”. I was/am, a part-time musician, self employed with stable work in another professional field yet his fear objectively was that I did not seem like I would have a steady, stable career with a large corporation. I still laugh thinking about that one…although it slightly hurt my feelings at the time.
I think some men DO look for high achieving, high earning women so they don’t have to assume the burden of provider, as that can be quite stressful. The truth is, I am financially secure but my male friend (speaking objectively) did not seem intrigued by my somewhat alternative lifestyle. He wanted a bread winning partner with company benefits! The truth is, I am quite financially secure as I have lived fairly frugally throughout my life, despite being self employed.
I recently had two dates with a guy with an MBA. He’s very nice, fun and VERY interested in me, he’s 4 years older at 55, twice divorced. He’s not what I would call attractive but I decided to give him a chance. He kissed me on both dates, and I wasn’t into it. I want to be attracted to the person I end up, and I don’t think I can compromise on this….he has contacted me and I’m not sure how to handle this. This is why I usually choose not to date men I don’t feel at least some physical attraction to. From a lot of posts I have read here, men “do what they want” and don’t feel they have to date women they are *not* physically attracted to. Yet it seems we women have to “settle” in this department in order to find a partner. I don’t know, I guess I’d rather be alone.
Nic 153
Oh dear.. *chuckle*
Love your blog Evan. Will keep dropping in for more dating insights.
Fiona 154
Soul how on earth can having an education rip someone of all their beauty?
Barry, you clearly have an issue of sorts with successful women so don’t date them. We don’t want to date men that resent us anyway. The mistake you make is assuming that all successful and intelligent men resent successful intelligent women. That just isn’t true. In the last year I have dated a university professor, an accountant, a teacher, a risk manager, an environmental consultant, an aerospace engineer and a nuclear physicist. They all approached me! Being successful doesn’t make me less pretty, loving or caring than a nurse. It just makes me more successful – that’s it.
Clare 155
There is some truth to Raina # 143
I am submerged in the process of letting myself go on dates with all kinds of guys, and trying to open up to all men that I meet, after my break up. It’s not really a finding Mr Right mission, although that would be wonderful if it happened.
What’s becoming clear to me is that education and income are not important to me, but confidence is *really* important to me, that sense that a guy is his own person, has a mind of his own. I need to, as Raina said, feel safe, be able to be vulnerable and let go. I can’t do this if a guy is always in my energy and desperate to please me by any means necessary. It just makes me annoyed!
Helen 156
Fiona 154: Exactly.
I had to laugh reading #148. If I were a doctor, then, while I was at work in the hospital, I would act like a DOCTOR. I wouldn’t act like a romantic sweetheart. As a patient, I’d run away (if I could) from a doctor who acted like a romantic sweetheart. There is a time and a place for everything. Thoughtfulness is always important, but anyone who expects female doctors to act like receptive sweeties WHILE THEY ARE BEING DOCTORS really needs to get their priorities straight (including their own health care).
We women have other roles in society than to cater to men’s fantasies and to be men’s playthings. Nietzsche may have thought otherwise, but he did go insane, and this is 2012, not the 1800s. Thankfully, to most of the men I know, a happy and fulfilled woman is immensely attractive – it doesn’t matter how successful and strong she is. In fact, women who try TOO hard to please men are the ones who tend to fail.
Mickey 157
If my significant other has Pd.D. and I have a Master’s Degree, the credential count would be 3-2 in her favor. If both parties have graduate degrees at that point, is that really a deal breaker?
Fiona 158
Helen, the picture you paint is hilarious and it works both ways. If a male doctor were to ask me out while I were lying in a hospital bed I’d be very worried about him as a professional. It sounds like something from a “Carry On” film. I have been asked about by two taxi drivers this year while driving cabs late at night where I was the sole passenger and I was more frightened than flattered to be honest as I was in a vulnerable situation. I wasn’t being receptive by taking a cab – I wanted to get home safely.
Two of my aunts are nurses and they didn’t enjoy advances from patients much when they were doing their jobs either, they weren’t being receptive – they were just doing their job and couldn’t get away! They might have been flattered if a man were someone they found attractive but most of the time those weren’t the guys doing that. We’ve all been there. in my twenties I had a few sleazy older business colleagues make some very inappropriate comments – one along the lines of wanting a blow up picture of me on their wall while another felt it ok at business drinks to ask which man in a bar I would like to give it to me the hardest. Yet another was attempting to play footsie under the table while I was stuck sitting next to him at dinner. On each occasion i wasn’t flattered – I went home feeling very upset. Fortunately, I don’t judge the vast majority of men by the standards of a few sleazy guys.
Fiona 159
Mickey, not at all.
Zaq 160
There’s none so blind as those who will not see
It seems to me Evan, you have an impossible job.
The characteristics men find attractive in women include compassion, nurturing, supportive, gentleness, happy. Men are not interested in whether women possess degrees in bitchiness.
I do disagree that the views expressed above represent a minority view. To me, they appear entrenched and pervasive and are already taking their toll on relationships.
Only a minority of people are successful. If successful men are happy to date women who are not successful, and successful women will only date successful men, it follows that most successful women will go without. Logic.
Enjoy spinsterhood girls.
Reddy 161
It is not true that men don’t care about a woman’s educational credentials.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200401/the-new-trophy-wife?page=3
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200630/Not-just-pretty-face-Modern-men-prefer-women-brains-beauty.html
This confirms what I see around me. I live in a European city and I rarely meet couples with a big gap in education level. I don’t think men here like to be with a woman who has less education than they have. It is also very rare that women stop their career when they have children. They prefer to hire a nanny and keep working. If a woman stops working, it is perceived as something negative.
I even wonder if there have been so many times where men were the providers and women stayed at home. I come from a family of entrepreneurs who run small businesses. If I look at the women of the generations before me, they were all active in the business of their husband in one way or another. So I don’t know when these Stepford wives ever existed but it sure was not in my family.
Evan Marc Katz 162
Sorry, Reddy, but if you’d actually read the article you linked to, there were a handful of anecdotes about men who were wowed by smart, strong, successful women. Count me among them. But this isn’t a study that shows that men care about women’s education. It validates everything I say: Of COURSE men like smart women. But that’s not why we STAY with you. And your BRAINS don’t equate to a happy relationship. And that’s what’s amazing about you posting this. You managed to ignore the conclusion on Page 3 of the article, which is all I’ve been talking about:
“Difficulties most often arise not because a man feels emasculated by his wife’s star power (“No one can emasculate you except you,” avows Pak), but because the woman grows disappointed with her partner.
“If a woman is powerful, smart and ambitious, her expectations for her husband, and for the relationship, rise,” says Nando Pelusi, a New York City psychologist who has counseled plenty of alpha-alpha pairings. McCarthy says it’s the primary reason that middle-class marriages fail in the first five years: The woman feels her spouse is not keeping his end of the pact.
And when women feel that their husbands aren’t reaching their earning or emoting potential, men may decide they’ve gotten more than they bargained for. “Men truly want brighter, more articulate, aggressive women. They want to be seen in the world with them. But they also want these women to leave some of it at the doorstep,” says Real. “These guys love their wives. They just haven’t figured out what to do when that strength is channeled toward them.”
Reddy 163
Evan, in my opinion these quotes say in the first place that men have to take responsibility to be able to keep up with their accomplished, smart, intelligent women! – “no one can emasculate you except you” – “the woman feels her spouse is not keeping his end of the pact” – “these guys haven’t figured out what to do when that strenght is channeled toward them” So I read this totally different than you. I don’t see flaws of women mentioned here but flaws of men which prompt women to end a relationship. In the couples I know with both an accomplished man and an accomplished woman are couples where the man definitely ALSO loves his woman for her brains. No smart woman will be pleased when her hubby says: “Darling, I love you but I don’t care that you are smart.” We want to be loved as a package, with everything in it. I can only repeat Steve Nakamoto’s advice to men: “get a fresh start, maximize his talents, develop his game, play with more heart, and move up in class.” I read so much frustration here by the men and I think it is basically because so many men have low selfesteem and expect a woman to build it up. But no one can do that for you and I think an accomplished woman simply does not want to try that because it is mission impossible anyway. The guy who preferred the nurses over the doctors is a good example of this. Why does he prefer the caring nurses? Because it is all about him and about women who confirm his value and by the nature of their job, nurses play a more caring affirmative role for a patient. But he is not interested in them as persons, he is just interested in what they can offer him. The thing is that in a hospital the responsiblity of the doctor is bigger so she probably has less time to give him a smile and provide some human interaction. A confident man understands this and does not have a bruised ego when an interaction with a woman is merely professional. Ultimately, men can keep wanting and needing what they want and need. If you are financially independent as a woman, you are not obliged to give that to them if you have the feeling that it means playing the obedient wifey who looks up in admiration to her hubby. This is 2012.
Evan Marc Katz 164
Reddy, I will remind you that I give advice to women. You keep telling me what MEN can change. That’s not what I’m here for.
So you’re wasting your time telling me what men can do. You may be right. It’s not my mandate. What can YOU do that will help you find true love?
And I’ll tell you for the final time: the second you start showing admiration and caring to your man is the second you will connect with him. You seem to look down on nurses and, by extension, women who admire and care for their husbands. Yet, I’m telling you, this is PRIMARILY what we want in a partner. You can’t tell me that I’m wrong. You can only tell me that YOU don’t want to be this way, even though it costs you NOTHING. You can BE educated and successful and ALSO admire and care for your husband. That point seems to have eluded you.
Soul 165
Reddy #163
Either you are arguing just for the sake of arguing (which is extremely annoying and totally unattractive for a (smart))
or….
you just don’t get it, i.e. you do not understand the nuances….
Reddy 166
Evan, once again you read things in my post which are not there so these things come from you, not from me. I don’t look down on nurses at all and that is nowhere written in my post! I look down on the man who automatically presumes that the nurses are so much kinder and warmer than the female doctors on the basis of how they interact with him in an environment where both are simply doing their – different – job.
I get that you give advice here to men but I and other women are telling you that it does not work for us. I know most “dating doctors” are speaking to women about what they have to do to make a man love them, which is because women are more inclined to look for advice and to do some introspection. I think every mature human being is capable of introspection and change, also men, so why should women do all the heavy lifting?
A man has to earn my admiration and caring and unfortunately I meet very few who do. I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant. Now your wife is cool about it. But when I meet a guy like you he does not awaken admiration and caring.
I think men often don’t get admiration and caring because they don’t make women like giving it. I will in any case not give it to a man who comes across as selfish.
Evan Marc Katz 167
@Reddy - This is the last I’m going to post in response to you. You will not be allowed to respond in return:
You said a few things that were completely wrong, but one thing that was completely right.
What you got wrong:
“Why should women do all the heavy lifting?” I’ve not once said that there aren’t a hundred things that men can do to improve in relationships. But if we go down that road, what exactly does this mean? It means understanding women – what they want, what they need, what makes them feel safe, heard and understood. Right?
So my advice to you is how to understand men – what they want, what they need, what makes them feels safe, heard and understood. And the evidence is in. Men want women who MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD.
Which is why your sarcastic statement, “But he is not interested in them as persons, he is just interested in what they can offer him” is literally the ONLY thing you have gotten right so far.
Kudos.
Now, as for the insulting part of your last post: “I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant. Now your wife is cool about it. But when I meet a guy like you he does not awaken admiration and caring.”
You can’t imagine anything about me, you ignoramus.
I was up since 7am with my two year old daughter while my wife slept.
When she woke up at 10, I held my newborn son for a half-hour while my wife put on her makeup.
Selfish, I know.
The only way I’m arrogant is in presuming that I know what men want from partners – and yes, I get pretty pissy when a woman tells me that I’m WRONG – that men ACTUALLY want women who are difficult, cold, argumentative, and clueless about how to make a man happy. I’m arrogant about doing what I do for a living because I’ve been doing it for ten years and I’m really successful at it. And then, I’m supposed to be a bigger person by accepting your insults on my blog? Please.
But before I go (and you do, too), one piece of dating advice:
My wife – by accepting and loving me despite my flaws – gets the most passionately devoted husband and father in the entire world. She feels safe, heard, and understood. She feels loved, cherished and beautiful. She knows that I’m never going to leave her and that I will do anything in my power to provide for my family. This is what you clearly don’t get, Reddy – that the key to connecting with men is to love, accept, and support them – not endlessly criticize them because they don’t meet up to your standards.
I’m in a happy marriage and I give relationship advice that has helped thousands of women around the world find love.
If you don’t want to listen, go find a blog that validates your world view that the secret to relationships is for men to start valuing difficult women, which seems to be all that you’re advocating.
Once again, no need to reply. This is my house and you’ve been impolite to your host and his wife.
Fiona 168
Reddy, I think the point that Evan is making is that we all have flaws and in the end we all have to compromise somehow. It is up to each individual to decide what they are prepared to compromise on e.g. an ultra religious person may have stringent requirements on religion, a smart woman may have stringent requirements on intelligence but be a bit more relaxed about age, nationality etc.
Morris 169
Reddy. I think you’ll continue to believe what you want to believe. However in my circle of friends successful men are not having problems finding women to date or marry. So much so that a good deal of them are not in a hurry to marry even as they approach their 40′s. I don’t think men or women are at fault. But if things aren’t working it would seem you can do one of two things. Somehow change the mindset of everyone else to get your desired result. Or change your own.
I asked a successful friend if he would marry an alpha female. (He’s married to a Montessori teacher.) He said no. He wants someone to complement him. Someone that brings something different to the table. Someone he won’t have to schedule time to be with. I think that’s part of the problem. Successful men are looking for their better half. Not their mirror image.
RW 170
So much of this discussion has centred around “success” and “successful women”. I know success is subjective and different for each person but in general, I’m curious to know what most of you define as success. Annual income over 100K? Over 200K? More? Having advanced degrees? I’m just trying to establish a general baseline for the discussion surrounding successful women.
Fiona 171
Morris, I find such comments simply unhelpful. As a successful woman I am a little tired of being told successful woman aren’t going to bring something to the table. Utter nonsense I’m afraid and for every successful guy that automatically assumes we won’t without trying thankfully there is one that doesn’t make silly assumptions.
Evan Marc Katz 172
@RW – There is no general baseline except for this:
If a woman makes $100K, her husband has to make more.
If a woman makes over $200K, her husband has to make more.
If a woman has a Masters degree, her husband has to have at least a Masters degree.
And so on.
Men are not burdened by these problems, because we choose women not for their degrees or money but because of how women make us feel – trusted, noble, sexy, funny. And if you give TED talks and rake in a million a year, it’s just an added bonus.
Senior Lady Vibe 173
@Goldie #60 “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?” Not proud of my reaction, I told him I had to go, said good-bye and hung up, because I really didn’t know what to say to this.”
This seems to me to be a natural interest, if somewhat awkwardly worded question. I’d probably just answer it in a matter-of-fact way: ”I’m now an American citizen so I think of the U.S. as my home. I’ve lived here for 15 years [or however long] and I plan to spend the rest of my life here but I visit [birth country] every three or four years [or whenever] Is all of your family from?[guy's city]
Fiona 174
Evan I think 172 shows just how subjective success is. I know some women who do define success that way.
My definition is probably a bit wider as I tend to define success by reference to the general population e.g. I would see an army captain as a fairly successful educated person although he probably earns a fair bit less than me and is less likely to have a Masters. My definition of success does not mean that someone should be a CEO.
I would love to say that all that should matter is how a man makes you feel. Perhaps I am just practical but money issues do seem to be the main cause of divorce and I just can’t see how people make things work on very low incomes without a lot of worry.
Morris 175
Fiona, there is no advice in the world that would apply to every person in the world. Sorry you don’t find it helpful. But just to be clear. I never said successful women don’t bring something to the table. They clearly do. All I’m saying is that to many successful men your degrees and financial success don’t play nearly as big a role as successful women think it should or wish it did. That’s just the way it is.
It’s the OTHER things you bring to the table that will attract him. If you have the other qualities he desires I’m sure your degrees and financial success will just be icing on the cake.
I think it irks many successful woman that given two kind, loving, funny and intelligent woman. If one was also young and pretty while the other was financially successful with a degree from a prestigious college. A successful man would probably choose the young and pretty one. Men and women value many of the same things. We also value some different things. Deal with it.
I would never ask you or any other successful woman to compromise. I would never ask a successful man to compromise either. Heck I wouldn’t tell anyone to compromise. Know your competition. Know what your ideal person wants. Know supply and demand. If for some reason your criteria creates a small pool of eligible people. Man/woman-up and live with results. If you want to change the results you can either change so YOU have the values THEY want. Or you can change your criteria to expand your pool of eligible people. It’s not rocket science.
Rochelle 176
#110 Ruby– re: men on dating sites who list the education level they prefer in women, yeah I do think men are more wary of being seen as a financial caretaker these days. It is also possible these men would choose a woman with a degree who embraces her feminine energy over one who isn’t educated and equally embraces her feminine side, since they would see the education as a bonus. But they won’t fall in love with women because of their degree. So there’s still a chance that the guy who says in his profile that a woman must have her masters and a certain income could end up with one who has her bachelors and lower income, if he feels better around her than the one with the masters, even though his profile asked for a “masters”.
Re compromise: I don’t feel it’s necessary to date whomever regardless of profession so I really don’t see myself ending up with a laundry guy. But think of it this way, one of my friends married a construction worker, while she has a high profile federal job as a civil engineer, and manages several projects for the city. But she lets him be a man, and he lets her be a woman, that’s why they are still together. She doesn’t try to run him like she runs things at work and he makes her feel safe. The guy also happens to be pretty good looking, plus he has the alpha masculine energy that most of us women desire, intelligent and he’s hardworking. His income is lower than hers but he doesn’t leave it up to her to take care of everything. And despite the fact they have different education levels, they have a lot of shared values and support each other. She’s the type of woman who never had trouble finding a boyfriend despite her success and large income. She didn’t have to do the “dating game” a lot because while she’s extremely confident and successful, she’s open and naturally knows how to embrace her feminine playful side around men.
the point in compromise is to just see how things turn out when we let go of some of that “checklist”. Compromise doesn’t mean we have a masters degree but should settle for the chronically unemployed dude who plays video games all day, lives in his mother’s basement and has no direction in life. lol There’s the the grey area between the black and white..which seems to be missed in a lot of these posts. I’ve seen it happen so many times, that once we test the waters and try men they wouldn’t have dated because of that particular item on the checklist, we are more likely to find someone meant to be.
marymary 177
I don’t understand why it’s to so difficult to understand that men want to be loved and cherished. That’s what I want for myself. I find that message reassuring, not threatening. If I love and cherish my boyfriend we will build a connection that can’t be just thrown away and replaced.
if someone is with you for your looks, or job or whatever, surely that puts you in a very insecure position. There will always be someone more intelligent, more beautiful, more successful, or younger. If not today, tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then ten years.
why fight for that? (and so unpleasantly!)
Aisling 178
Can’t help but wonder what Evan’s take is on the whole General Petraeus affair. The younger woman is not only beautiful, but an overachiever and reputedly very aggressive and ambitious.
Aisling 179
Anyway, I get depressed reading this blog/comments. Not because of Evan, who I believe is a very kind person, but because of the mostly male and some of the female comments here. I have seen how they have beaten up on the 30-something Fiona. I can only imagine how they would bea t up on me at 50+! LOL Has anyone here really tried to think outside the box? Some people look great at 60 and some are old at 25.
Nic, I admire your openness. But I envision you as a hot blonde 20 or 30 something. Hence, the neurosurgeon. No offense. It is not your fault
Evan Marc Katz 180
There’s not much that anyone can say about the Petraeus affair because a) we don’t really know anything and b) one incident doesn’t necessarily mean much of anything.
However, this aggressive, ambitious woman fell in love with the general and presumably made him feel like a Greek God. One review of the book said just as much – something to the effect of “It’s not whether Petraeus was perfect, but whether he was super perfect!” Then again, after 37 years with one woman and years abroad, one can certainly make logical sense of a 60-year-old man being receptive to the advances of an impressive, beautiful younger woman.
Either way, it’s unfortunate that a man who appeared to have such upstanding morals is just like the rest of the big name politicians/athletes/actors/rock stars.
I don’t think it can/should shed much light on this argument – which has already been twisted beyond recognition by a few posters. Yes, men DO like brilliant, accomplished women. I spent 15 years chasing them myself. Then I realized that it didn’t MEAN very much in terms of my happiness. Same way a rich, charismatic man isn’t necessarily a good HUSBAND. Who IS a good husband? The guy who picks up on his wife’s emotional cues and helps with the housework and the childrearing – not the guy who necessarily is the most impressive. This isn’t even a debate at this point. Which is why it’s so tiring. Looks and money are just attractive shiny qualities; they say nothing about what kind of partner someone is. And if you chase them – whether you’re a man or a woman – at the expense of values and ethics and sensitivity – you’re aiming for a heartbreak.
Raina 181
I still don’t think reddy was in any kind of wrong. Maybe banning her from responding is a way of not listening to what her legitimate points were. Basically, American men don’t care about education level from what EMK says – but I don’t think that’s really true and I find that to be very insulting of men. Trust me, in East Indian communities, it matters a lot – yes, even the woman’s educational attainment. So, the men just wanting cute, feminine and uncold is more of an American and Western thing in my experience than it is a catch-call description of all men. Besides, I met my husband without doing online dating; he was 37 when we met and I was 33 (I’m now 35).
Evan Marc Katz 182
@Raina – If I didn’t tolerate dissent on here, this blog wouldn’t have 37,000 comments on it. No, the only thing I don’t tolerate are personal insults…
Reddy to Evan:
“Could this evaluation of yours possibly have something to do with the fact that these women were not interested in you? Or wanted an equal relationship without having to look at you in admiration and having to stroke your ego?”
“I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant.”
Evan to Reddy:
Goodbye.
Fiona 183
Morris the fact that you have a successful friend who is married to a Montessori teacher and says he wouldn’t have married an alpha female is irrelevant. The guy is married and it may surprise you to hear that I couldn’t be happier that guys with such attitudes are off the market. Why would I want someone who doesn’t like successful women anyway?
Where Evan I think gets it wrong is to think that money is not important. Only people who have money or come from money usually think that. I have seen what happens to people with no money first hand. Many lead utterly miserable lives and I don’t want that for myself ever hence the fact that I have worked hard to avoid that. Call me shallow if you wish – I call it practical.
In all seriousness I see no evidence that the majority of uneducated men are more interested in me than their educated counterparts. Many of them are of course interested in a sexual way as are a lot of men but that is about it. They usually figure out after about five minutes of conversation as do I that we are incompatible.
Finally, yes we all try to make men feel good – this is a no brainer, My point is that this has nothing to do with being more successful. A really good man in my view isn’t gong to have an issue with a woman being successful either. Of those that do, I would suggest they aren’t worth bothering with and the less successful women they end up with had better watch out if one day they decide they want to do more with their lives.
Soul 184
EMK
I totally agree with you
Rochelle 185
@ marymary 177, exactly I don’t understand the women who act like they are making themselves “weak” by making a man feel loved, respecting him and being supportive, so they rather criticize his every move rather than encourage him. These women feel entitled to a man who makes them feel like queen but making a man feel loved strikes a nerve with them. It goes both ways.
Karmic Equation 186
@Aisling, Reddy, Fiona
You’re not getting it. It’s not that men don’t “don’t care” about your degrees or success, it’s simply that they don’t VALUE your degrees and success the same way YOU value them, whether in yourself or in the man.
What a man VALUES is how he FEELS WHEN YOU ARE WITH HIM. Do you make him feel GOOD about himself? Or do you DRAG HIM DOWN? Do you truly APPRECIATE him as a HUMAN BEING first rather than the as a “successful man” first? Do you see his humanity? Do you understand his vulnerabilities? Do you NURTURE him with positive emotions and attitude, so that he feels that only with you can he be free to be himself AND also conquer the world — and if he doesn’t succeed, you’ll still “be there for him”, that he is still your hero?
That is what a man VALUES. Your success and your degrees don’t help him feel this way.
This doesn’t mean playing games and kissing up to him (althought it does sometimes mean stroking his ego – just woman-up and do it. Men cater to our need for romance the same way). It means really and truly seeing through to the heart and soul of the man. If and when you do, you’ll find that MOST men are worthy of your appreciation, admiration, and respect, whether they are alaundry worker or a CEO.
Whether the man is an alpha, beta, or omega, you will earn his undying devotion if you can make HIM feel safe, appreciated, admired, respected, heroic even. And if you make HIM feel all that, you win…his heart, his mind, his devotion, his commitment.
It’s kind of a Murphy’s Law, the more you need a man to admire YOU, the less likely you are to get it; the more YOU admire a man, the more he admires you. The hardest part is to make him feel all that without becoming a clingy doormat.
Morris 187
Aisling. No need to get depressed. At least for my post I was referring to people who arbitrary limit their dating pool to 1% of the population and get upset that that 1% isn’t interested in them.
Fiona. At the end of the day the men you seek are out there. I just wanted you to understand you’ve made it hard on yourself with your criteria. The small dating pool of educated, successful, attractive(to you at least), kind men have their pick of just about any women they want. If you don’t have children and want a family you’ll have to consider said man will also be considering age in his criteria as well. You’ll have to be his ideal woman as much as he is your ideal man. Good luck.
nathan 188
Fiona, I have to disagree with you on the money issue. It’s not nearly as much about the amount someone makes, as how they handle it. I’ll out myself for example. I have a Master’s Degree, and yet have never made more than 30K a year. Now, you might say I’m unsuccessful and that my finances are a red flag. But consider. I’m currently the head of one non-profit’s board or directors, was a founding member of another non-profit, and am a published author. Yes, I’m not the norm, but let’s move past that to look at the more important issue here. Being on the lower end of middle class doesn’t equal living miserably. I’m not in debt, nor do I fritter money away needlessly. Most of my friends are doing just fine as well, despite not making anywhere near six figures. My guess is that the majority of those you see as living miserable lives are folks with poor financial habits, which is entirely different from not having a high income. You’re selectively ignoring the fact that plenty of folks who have high power jobs, or are well off through inheritance, also burn through money like there’s no tomorrow.
That’s one of the more subtle points of what Evan is talking about here. It’s not money that’s important; it’s about how one spends it and takes care of it. If you are concerned about divorce, it’s a hell of a lot more important to look at someone’s spending and saving habits. But that takes time, and frankly, the majority of folks are so in a rush, that they’d rather use faulty filters like arbitrary income cutoffs than take a risk on someone who might be an excellent partner.
marymary 189
Fiona
You want a man who is rich and well-educated. That’s your perogative. But as you’ve said yourself, you can’t seem to find such a man (who is suitable. Evidently, you’ve dated a few such men but it hasn’t worked out their attributes notwithstanding). We suggest widening the net and refocusing on things that are “obvious” and a “no-brainer” such as his character, integrity, and kindness (which apparently are so abundant there’s no need to specifically search for them). You think we’re telling you to date a poverty stricken illiterate who is a nice person.
I’m at a loss as to what you want us to say to you. But I’m intrigued as to what it might be.
Foxie 190
We should not confuse successful with educated, and this thread was about educational level. Educational level does not equal success in life but it often comes with it. But not always. I personally find the educational level important, apart from the being yes or no succesful of a man.
I think that a woman who makes let’s say 60 K prefers to be with a guy whose standard of living is not too much below hers because she knows that if it is, it will make her poorer (just like having a woman who earns significantly less makes a man poorer) coz before she had her salary for herself and now she has to share it. Will she still be able to have 2 holidays a year and regularly have dinner in a nice restaurant if she has to pay for her man as well? OK, men have been supporting women but 1) most of the time they earn a lot more than women 2) the woman usually cooks and cleans for them, does their laundry, raises there children. I know couples where the woman has to support the man and on top of that she also has to do all the household chores. That’s modern slavery in my eyes.
Fiona is right: money is important. It is a difference to find a partner who has his/her own home than one who doesn’t (I am not talking about 25 year olds who are to young to possess their own home) for example. If you have a partner who is in serious debt, it will certainly affect your relationship.
Karmic Equation 191
@Foxie
Money isn’t important, but rather, as Nathan has indicated, make sure that you and your partner are responsible with money. If neither of you are, then yes, I guess, one of you will need to make lots of money.
However, why would you even choose a partner with poor money habits? Or actually, I would say that, don’t marry anyone with poor money habits. They may make good boyfriends, but certainly not good marriage material.
If you make more money than your partner, then make sure you have an ironclad prenup to protect your wealth.
There are ways around the money issue that doesn’t require a man to make X amount of money. In my opinion, if this is a deal breaker, then you are mighty shallow indeed.
Barry 192
Where did this delusion, that women can have it all come from ?
This whole topic has hit a raw nerve, because so many have bought into the lie.
And yes it really is just about the money. Education is merely a cover.
What is does mean is that there is no longer “a lid for every pot” because so many are rejecting the lids that fit in favour of waiting for one that is covered in gold.
This is a tragedy of epic proportions.
Clare 193
Evan,
Will you consider censoring Barry please, or have a chat with him? His language towards women is so attacking, I’m not sure how the other women on this blog can stand it. For me, it’s making the blog kind of an unpleasant place and I’m considering leaving.
Karmic Equation 194
@Fiona
Finally, yes we all try to make men feel good – this is a no brainer, My point is that this has nothing to do with being more successful. A really good man in my view isn’t gong to have an issue with a woman being successful either.
EXACTLY. Your success has nothing to do with making a man feel good, so your success matters little to a man seeking a mate. You keep forgetting that what matters to YOU may not matter to a man.
Of those that do, I would suggest they aren’t worth bothering with and the less successful women they end up with had better watch out if one day they decide they want to do more with their lives.
Dream on, Fiona. A man who marries a woman for her beauty isn’t going to wake up one day wishing she were successful. What he may do is dump her if he married her for her beauty and he wakes up one day thinking she looks like a hag. Again, you are projecting YOUR fears and desires into a man. A man doesn’t want what a WOMAN wants, a man wants what a MAN wants.
Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is more than just about communication styles. Men seek and value qualities in a woman DIFFERENTLY than what a woman values in a man. If you don’t get this as “intelligent” and as “educated” as you tout yourself to be…you are actually proving a point, though unintentionally. A person can be intelligent and educated and be male-female-dynamic-stupid. So don’t you think that leaves open the possibility that someone not “having gone to university” can be smart and intelligent? Male-female dynamic-wise or just about life in general?
Be real and call a spade a spade, what you may want is to marry someone RICH, someone SOPHISTICATED, someone ATTRACTIVE. The problem is that guy, while he exists can doesn’t WANT OR NEED a successful woman to make him happy. Most likely, he wants, young, nubile, sweet, and supportive. Even if you were to qualify for the sweet and supportive qualities, young and nubile you are not.
And lastly, all those alpha men, who ARE rich, sophisticated, well traveled, but already married…Guess what? He didn’t come out of the womb that way. Once upon a time, he may have been a laundry worker and the woman he married believed in him and supported him to become the man he is today.
Evan Marc Katz 195
I was going to delete your post, Clare, because it’s not your place to police my blog comments. But I let it through for the obvious purpose of being a teachable moment.
You want me to censor Barry for saying too aggressively that women are too hung up on money – even though he hasn’t attacked you personally or insulted you personally. Sorry, no can do.
The same tone that you’re receiving from Barry is the one that I get from dozens of women in this comments section – you know – the ones who complain that men are the problem, men should change, men have no integrity, men are too interested in sex, youth and beauty, men are cheaters, men are liars, men are poor communicators.
I don’t recall you asking me to censor those women’s posts as they attacked men (including me).
I can either censor EVERYBODY who speaks in one-sided strongly worded tones or I should censor ONLY the people who turn attacks into something personal. I’ve been doing the latter for years. But the former is the debate that keeps this blog compelling – however much you (and I) find it agitating.
Personally, I think Barry can stand to soften his tone, but I don’t disagree that much with his message.
And I’ll observe what you’ve probably already observed, Clare: you’re far more attuned to insults directed at women than you are at insults directed at men.
Andrew 196
Evan, thank you for being on top of the comments and your approach towards “censorship”. As an aside, I’d be very curious to read some of your hate mail (emails or deleted comments).
Clare 197
Apologies Evan, I did not mean to overstep, I’m very sorry if I was coming across as trying to police. It was not my intention.
I guess it got to me a little and felt a little personal because I am a woman and I feel Barry has us completely wrong, and because of the language he uses.
Guess I could stand to toughen up a little, or maybe not come here so much
Sorry again.
Clare 198
By the way, sorry, for what it’s worth, I feel very sad when women attack men here too.
Fusee 199
I don’t think that commenters disagree that much in the end. Yes we want a partner of compatible intelligence and lifestyle. Duh! Such couple fare better indeed. However, when common sense becomes a rigid list of requirements it’s no longer a preference issue but a character issue. The preferences might be legitimate, but the underlying problem is the attitude behind justifying them. Entitlement, shallowness, unflexibility, judgement, etc. are NOT compatible with a life-long relationship. It will fail before the fifth anniversary.
Now, when I read some commenter’s “checklists”, I found myself nodding. The thing is, I never had to define those preferences as requirements. No man of low-education ever approached me. Very few of very low-income level have. Of course manual laborers eye me (hey, men are looking for sex…), but they do not approach me and are unlikely to desire forming a relationship with me. They indeed have their own requirements for “lower-educated, not too ambitious, fan of video games” kind of women. They also look for the lid to their own pot.
Regarding the debate about what men prefer. A hot waitress or an educated woman? Well, first off, it’s getting tiresome to think of men as “one kind”. They come in all kinds of flavors. Like women. Yes, they have some commons traits. Most men are driven by lust and therefore look for sex first. But ultimately some will not want to enter a marriage, some will, some will prioritize looks, some will prioritize earning potential, and others something else. Just like most women.
However, the most desirable man who want to be married has options, just like the most desirable woman has options as well (What makes them desirable to the other gender is just different). In the 1950s, the best option for a successful man was a good-looking young lady from a good family, definitely virgin, and decently educated in homemaking skills. He would go for the best of what was available at that time. Nowadays the same man can also add advanced education, income level, and personal realization to the list. Women have access to education and more career options, and some can offer modern qualifications on the top of more traditional skills.
Therefore, what do men prefer? Well, in order to ask you out, he wants you to be hot enough. In order to date you, he wants to feel good around you. To marry you, he needs you to be hot enough, to make him feel great, and he wants you to bring other things to the table, things that will depend on his individual preferences.
There is no way around looks and making him feel good. That’s the only way to get the foot in the door. But for marriage to a desirable man, you got to bring much more to the table. So yes, education will matter at the point.
Good luck with trying to make your education credentials or wealth compensate for average looks, older age, and poor attitude. But good luck as well trying to marry a successful man if all you bring is a young hot body and a feel-good-anout-himself feeling. The most desirable men want the whole package. Some women can offer it.
Soul 200
Karmic equation # 194 said
“Once upon a time, he may have been a laundry worker and the woman he married believed in him and supported him to become the man he is today.”
Yes, Yes, Yes !!!
Clare #193
I am a female, and I do not feel insulted by Barry’s comments at all. Sorry. Coming from a lower middle class background, I, as a human being, feel more insulted when someone says he or she wouldn’t consider dating a laundry guy/female (and I have a 6-figure income).
Joe 201
@ Fusee #199: I disagree slightly. I don’t really think it’s education that matters as much as intelligent. Being formally well-educated doesn’t necessarily make one intelligent, and one needn’t be well-educated to be intelligent.
Fusee 202
@Joe #201: I agree with the distinction. Please replace “education” by “intelligence” in my former comment #199. However I believe that some men – exactly like some women – overvalue education credentials and equate them with intelligence, which is of course foolish. (in the last 12 years I’ve spent 8+ hours/day with PhDs or future PhDs , therefore know very well that degrees do not correlate with intelligence, and even less with wisdom!)
Karmic Equation 203
+1 @Joe 201 and @ Soul 200
Fiona 204
Fusee said:
“Yes we want a partner of compatible intelligence and lifestyle. Duh! Such couple fare better indeed.”
Exactly!
Marymary, I have only been settled back in the UK for a year after years of moving around abroad so it may take a bit longer to find the right guy than that. i know that kindness, character and integrity are important. I would say this is a prerequisite. I do not however think that a guy who is kind, has character and integrity but lacks intelligence or ambition is right for me. I don’t enjoy spending time with unintelligent men so I am never going to marry one. Contrary to what you think I am not looking at men who are “rich” but I am not considering men who are poor with few life prospects either. i have a good life. At times it has been hard and rarely uneventful but I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve been to places and done things I never even dreamed of being able to do growing up – that spirit of adventure will always be there. It would be nice to have a likeminded partner to share new adventures with (especially if I am not able to have children for any reason) but better to venture out into the world alone than not to venture out at all.
Clare, I find what Barry writes on this blog hostile too (mainly towards me). For that reason, I try to keep my dealings with such men to a minimum in real life because frankly I don’t enjoy being berated by people for the sake of it and also i can’t win. I can tell him smart men approach me often (which suggests I am not a 4) and he will insist they don’t and that I’m a 4.
Karmic, i absolutely understand that what men care about is how I make them feel. As I feel better around smart men myself it is a lot easier for me to make smart men feel good because I am not having to pretend.
Soul, some people will always be offended that a lawyer doesn’t want to date a laundry man. Such is life – you can’t please everyone. The laundry guy in question was not the man for me. I wish him well.
Nic 205
#179
Hi Aisling, Don’t get depressed. Neuro-surgeon and I are both 30-something. I am not blonde. I do, however, fantasize being statuesque blonde sometimes (I think they have more fun =) ) But I have learned to embrace my multi-racial roots (half Asian, 25% Castillian Spanish and 25% French), brunette, dark eyes, petite frame at 5’2″ 95 lbs. I always wanted to be taller and broke my ankle wearing one of those 4″ stiletto. I gave them up. Now when someone says “There. Is. Little bit,” I smile and take it as compliment. Dating a neuro-surgeon is a compromise. His job is his lifestyle. He works 60-80 hours/week and on-call every other weekend without much sleep. I have to ask myself, is this what I want for the long haul. I don’t know the answer to that yet.
On that note, prompted by this thread, I asked current beau (neuro-surgeon) and my ex-BF (attorney) both well educated and successful (agree on Evan’s definition above), why me? Neuro-surgeon states, because “when I have a challenging case you are outside the OR cheering me on, telling me I am brilliant!” And the attorney who calls every 2 weeks to check if I am happy, reports, because every time I break a bone car racing or something, you are always there with orthopedic consult and you watch out for me. Does it mean I am a doormat? i asked. They both said, oh no! You are a one liner. That is it. Now, why do I keep reading Evan’s blog. The allure of a badder Alpha Male is. Sometimes. Irresistible. Was it Woody Allen who once said– the heart wants what the heart wants. Evan keeps me in line.
starthrower68 206
I gotta go with EMK on this. I dated a less educated, less “successful” guy for a few months. I grew to love him. It didn’t work out but I would have built a future with him, had he wanted it.
Barry 207
Thank you for the support Soul.
Also congrats to Marymary whose comments are inspirational.
And to those who cannot, will not lower their demands for success in a mate, I ask the question I raised before, and which was conveniently ignored.
What happens when the successful man you marry becomes ill and cannot work ? Or whose skills are no longer required ?
Helen 208
Karmic #186 wrote: “It’s kind of a Murphy’s Law, the more you need a man to admire YOU, the less likely you are to get it; the more YOU admire a man, the more he admires you.”
Um, with all due respect, no.
I agree with the first part – it never works to try to force a man to admire you. But admiring him, putting him on a pedestal, does not lead him to admire you. It makes him look down on you. Evan wrote about that himself in another entry (“The Pedestal Principle”), and I’ve seen this borne out again and again in my workplace.
Although I don’t believe it’s possible to “force” men to do anything, I do see that what makes a man more likely to admire a woman is if she does NOT fawn all over him, but is confident and assured in herself, and pleasant company. If he tries irking her or pushing her buttons, he’ll admire her if she responds with calm self-respect and a refusal to be belittled. Self-respect and good manners, no matter what degrees or accomplishments one has and no matter what one’s gender, are universally admirable.
Joe 209
Fiona, what does it mean for a guy to lack ambition?
Which guy lacks ambition more: the CEO who spends all his time at the office, or the middle manager who comes home every evening to his wife and kids?
Karmic Equation 210
@Fiona
I didn’t know you were an attorney. That kind of changes what I think about your requirements.
My best friend (male) is a partner in a lawfirm and we talk regularly. I think that lawfirms are one of the last bastions of the “good ol’ boys club” — and a woman being successful in that particular profession deserves many kudos. You have to be twice as successful to attain half the respect that a man would.
Before I knew your profession, I started a glib post that you should just be happy with the handsomest boy-toy you can handle. But if you are a lawyer that is out as an option. Image is part of the profession, right?
So, here’s a new thought…If you can, you should try to date men in “manly” professions that your colleagues would envy…e.g., race car driver, captain of the green berets, a professional athlete, etc. This would satisfy both your need for an alpha male and have someone to go to functions with that could hold his own with your colleagues. The problem is, could and would any of those guys marry you?
Honestly, I think a successful female lawyer in her late 30′s who isn’t already in an LTR is going to have a very tough time. A lot of “successful” men get successful having sometimes done something on the outer edges of the law and having a lawyer GF would be uncomfortable for them. Other men would probably be intimidated by the specific kind of intellect that belongs to a lawyer.
Were I you, I think you might just want to readjust the checklist from “intelligent” to “sharp-witted” from “successful” to “male-enviable profession” or something like that. I think you’d both expand your dating pool and have a lot more fun
Good luck.
Bluew 211
Women are not expected to date men with lower educational level. But, you are encouraged, to be open to other horizons.
I have met plenty of people that have attended uni, are none the wiser, use like in every other sentence and dig the tabloids.
I have also met plenty of drop-outs who are fascinatingly very smart, love the news, current affairs, and conversing with them is fabulous.
I have also met scholars who ended up working in trades because it would give them a better income.
Moral of the story: Do not judge a book by it’s cover. (Read: Do not judge men by what they appear to be on a piece of paper. Get to know them instead.)
Bill 212
This is what happens when women are way too picky and take too long to decide. All the men who have there shit together will eventually get married and couple up with a women. The only men that are left are the ones who are less successful than them.
At the end of the day we all know successful women want it all the problem is they can’t get it all. They often times wait too long and the men they would of settle for is gone.
Karmic Equation 213
@Helen 208
Well maybe admiring a man doesn’t garner his admiration. I would admit that is a poor choice of words. It would have been more accurate to have said admiring a man FOR THE RIGHT things can help forge a connection.
You can admire a man without putting him on a pedestal. Forgot where I read it, but the problem is not the admiration itself but WHAT it is that you admire about the man. You need to admire what a man works hard for…or, more specifically, admire the hard work he puts in to accomplish his goals. “I admire you for working hard at a job you hate so that you can provide for our family” or “I admire the hours and hours you put in on the golf course to become a good golfer” are the good kind of admiration…but “I admire your haircut” or “I admire your house/car/taste” not so much.
I think you mean men RESPECT women “if she responds with calm self-respect and a refusal to be belittled.” – I agree.
Kenley 214
Several people have suggested that Fiona should lower her bar and seek less successful and less educated men. There have even been several ladies who have shared their success with such relationships. However, every now and then people have shared articles that have indicated the challenges with those relationships. I would like offer up another example that highlights the difficulty of those types of pairings — and that’s African American Women and African American men.
The imbalance between educated and successful African American women and African American men is way bigger than it is for white men and women. The result is that African American women have been trail blazers in terms of marrying men who are less educated and/or less successful. Unfortunately, the divorce rate of those couples is much, much higher than it is for couples with whose education and income are closer or where the man’s income and education is somewhat higher. To be honest, I don’t know why the divorce rate is so much higher and I certainly don’t think only the men are to blame. I think women have play a big part too. Still, it is the case that successful, educated Black women with less educated, less successful Black women don’t stand the test of time. Will the dynamics be different for white men and women? Maybe. Maybe not. However, the point is that at least for one group of women marrying less educated less successful doesn’t seem to be such a great solution. Unfortunately, the result is that well over the majority of educated and successful black women are single — and I happen to be part of that statistic.
So, what might this mean for Fiona or any woman who widens her pool of acceptable men? I think it means these women need to be aware of the risks that might be involved and they need to be proactive about addressing them in order to improve the odds that they will have marriages that last.
For something that is so important and critical to our happiness and well-being, I think we enter relationships with so few tools and skills to make them work. How much compromise is too much compromise? How do I tell my partner what I need in a way that that isn’t hurtful. How do I really listen to my partner and get them to listen to me? I whole heartedly agree with everyone who says that the starting point for a great relationship is that both partners make each other feel loved and cherished. The challenge is how do you do that over the long haul when you will have needs, desires, and priorities that are at odds.
Ruby 215
Kenley #214
You raise an issue I had been thinking about also, although not specifically relating to African-Americans. I’ve also dated men who were less successful or struggling with their careers, and that had its own challenges. Some of these men felt trapped in their jobs, didn’t have many options, and weren’t very happy. Especially if you are bright, that struggle or lack of success can be very frustrating and discouraging. Although they might have admired my accomplishments, I sometimes sensed that it made them feel inadequate, and maybe even envious.
I now think it’s important to find a partner who is happy in his career, first and foremost, and I’d like to find someone with the smarts to be able to achieve the success that he desires, whatever that is. I’m less concerned with degrees or income (although, of course, he needs to know how to support himself!).
Goldie 216
@ Barry #148: Not sure about the UK, but where I am in the US, you have to have a college degree to be a registered nurse. If you said the nice, hardworking women on the cleaning crew made you go Wow, I’d be more likely to agree with your point about a woman’s education and intellect not being worth much in the eyes of a man. As it is, looks like you were still seeking out your intellectual peers. (I don’t count “not being originally from your country” as an intellectual impairment, either — but most regulars on here probably already know that about me, lol)
Goldie 217
Apologies for double-posting, there’s a lot to catch up on…
@ Barry #207:
“What happens when the successful man you marry becomes ill and cannot work ? Or whose skills are no longer required ?”
This is an interesting question, because it can be changed to apply to anyone, anyone at all. If a woman chooses a man for his intellect, what happens when he gets into an accident and becomes brain damaged? If a man chooses a woman for her looks, what happens when she ages 20 years and gains a hundred pounds? If a man chooses a woman because she’s caring and supportive, what happens when she becomes ill and can no longer support and take care of him? What happens if a nice woman comes down with a serious illness that completely changes her character? I don’t know, you tell me.
All I can see is, people are looking for a partner they can have a connection with. (Yes I know that there are men who look for arm candy, women who look for a walking ATM and so on, but I’m talking normal, decent humans here.) What if your partner changes so much that he or she is no longer the person you originally met, and the connection you two had no longer exists? Don’t know, don’t want to know, hope to never find myself in this position, because this is a tough one and probably beyond the scope of this blog.
@ Bill #212
“This is what happens when women are way too picky and take too long to decide. All the men who have there shit together will eventually get married and couple up with a women. The only men that are left are the ones who are less successful than them.”
That may be so, but what happens when women aren’t picky enough? Then they get married in a rush, get divorced a few years later, look around, and all the men who have their shit together are gone — they went and coupled up with someone else while the woman was married.
@ Bluew #211 — agree 100%. After reading the 200+ comments on this thread, I still think that your partner has to be in your intellectual league for a relationship to work. But I agree with you that educational credentials, or salary, or job title, or any other external indicator of success, cannot tell us whether someone is compatible with you intellectually or not. You cannot find out till you’ve met the man in person and interacted with him yourself. You cannot just go by what he’s listed in his profile or what he tells you about himself over email and phone.
I once dated a guy whose profile said he was a successful software architect with a six figure salary. We talked for about a month, met several times and he kept telling me how good he was at his work, how much he enjoyed his work, etc. I believed him to the point where, after he played me and cut off contact, I was actually worried and upset with myself for having lost a valuable business connection. But IT is a small world. Shortly after losing contact with the architect, I met a new coworker in my own office who’d worked with that guy before coming to my workplace. I asked him about his old job and the architect’s name came up right away. Apparently, the quality of his work was horrible — it actually the reason why my coworker left that place (“they had this guy running the place who called himself a software architect, but was more like a junior programmer.”) I could’ve dated that guy for years thinking of him as a successful professional based on his own words only, when in reality he wasn’t even close to being one. Another reason why you cannot judge a book by its cover and have to get to know a person to find out for yourself — the cover, in addition to being irrelevant to what the person is like as a date and a partner, may be counterfeit as well.
Foxie 218
Helen writes: “If he tries irking her or pushing her buttons, he’ll admire her if she responds with calm self-respect and a refusal to be belittled.” I don’t really understand why you have to reply with calm self-respect if someone irks you or pushes your buttons. If in my relationship, my man would irk or push my buttons on a regular basis I would start wondering if he actually loves and respects me.
Men want to be loved as they are but how loveable are they? In this thread I read a lot about how men want women to care for them, to accept them, to trust them, etc… But don’t they often want a woman who will not request that they become a better man and grow as a person? Who does not call them out when they are behaving badly? And I really don’t think that by putting up with bad behaviour a woman gives the right signal to a man.
I see very selfrighteous reactions here from men towards women just because some women have the nerve to have some preferences. What makes it so hard for you to agree to disagree? Why do you want to have the last word? Don’t tell me it is because you are a man. Your core must be more than this selfrighteousness, no?
Also, why does it irritate you so much if a woman would want it all? Why do you take it personal? If a woman or a man wants it all, why not just let them pursue their dream and come sooner or later to the conclusion that this is realistic or not.
Ultimately we all want to love and to be loved, that’s not only true for men but also for women. It is repeated several times here that it is important for men how a woman makes him feel. Yet I don’t get the impression that a woman is granted the right to find a man on the basis of how he makes her feel.
Karmic Equation, you write that a woman would have to say: “I admire you for working hard at a job you hate so that you can provide for our family” or “I admire the hours and hours you put in on the golf course to become a good golfer”. In my ears this honestly sounds like buttering up. Don’t get me wrong, I am totally in favour of expressing positive feedback and very generous with it. Genuine feedback that is. Ultimately I think that both men and women should start to find satisfaction in doing what they do without the need for constant affirmation for another person. Of course we all like some encouragement but we are adults so we should be able to stand on our own. Otherwise you put a heavy burden on your relationships and this might harm them.
Evan Marc Katz 219
@Foxie:
“Men want to be loved as they are but how loveable are they?”
If you don’t love him, don’t go out with him. Duh.
“In this thread I read a lot about how men want women to care for them, to accept them, to trust them, etc… But don’t they often want a woman who will not request that they become a better man and grow as a person?”
Who anointed you the personal growth police? Do YOU want a man telling YOU how YOU need to be a better woman and grow and change? Wait – don’t answer that. Because clearly the answer is no. I’M telling you how to better connect with a man (warmth, patience, acceptance, positivity, affection) and YOU’RE getting angry. See how it feels when someone tells you to change?
“Who does not call them out when they are behaving badly? And I really don’t think that by putting up with bad behaviour a woman gives the right signal to a man.”
Show me one place where I told a woman to put up with ‘bad behavior’. You can’t.
“If a woman or a man wants it all, why not just let them pursue their dream and come sooner or later to the conclusion that this is realistic or not?”
Because my job is to give dating advice to women. They have been pursuing their unrealistic dreams and coming up short. I try to steer them in the right direction. Are you saying that I should not give advice to these women, even though it’s my profession?
“Yet I don’t get the impression that a woman is granted the right to find a man on the basis of how he makes her feel.”
You are absolutely given that right. Problem is that most women don’t use it. My clients and readers often choose men who are tall, dark, handsome, educated, charismatic, and successful. That describes HIM. But how does he make her FEEL? Unimportant. Second-best. Low priority. Stupid. Crazy. Difficult. Yet, she’s STILL holding out for him instead of choosing a man who is devoted to her happiness.
That’s what I mean by choosing a partner based on how he makes you feel. That’s what men do as well – and no matter how bright, rich, or hot you are, a good guy with self-esteem is gonna kick you to the curb if you don’t give him the affirmation that seems to irk you so.
Fiona 220
In answer to Barry’s post at 207 if I were with a man I loved who got ill and could not work I’d deal with it when it happened which is all we can do. It is a bit like being asked how you would handle being in a train crash – you don’t know unless it happens. I don’t see this as an argument for choosing someone you don’t love.
Karmic Equation 221
@Foxie
Most of my friends are men. About 95% of them. I can tell you that all my male friends really like me and the simple reason is that I’m generous and giving of admiration that COSTS ME NOTHING to give or to acknowledge. I admire their skill or hard work because I truly do. Sometimes, if I think they’ve had a bad day, I go out of my way to affirm them. It’s part of being female and a good person.
As long as the admiration is genuine it’s not buttering up. If you express admiration because you know it will make him glow inside, what is wrong with that? If you’re FALSELY admiring him to forge a FALSE connection, yeah, that is totally not cool. And most men can sense this. They have gal-dar the way we have guy-dar. And quite frankly, I think most men’s gal-dars work much better than women’s guy-dar, because men aren’t blinded by external qualities when it comes to listening to their gal-dars.
Men would rather be acknowledged, respected, and admired, than “loved.” And men show their love with ACTIONS not words. (Forgot where I read these two tidbits – but it’s true) – When I text my man, I’ll acknowledge little things he does to show his love for me…and when I do that he ends up doing those things more often and even try to MORE and GRANDER things for me. It’s an awesome positive feedback loop.
I think most women perceive the idea of “unconditional love” as loving someone or bing loved regardless of their flaws or their actions. I think of unconditional love as giving love to someone without expecting anything in return. And by not expecting, I get so so much back.
Try it. Find something GENUINE to admire, respect, or appreciate in each man you date next and don’t be shy about expressing it. Use the words, “I admire … I respect … I appreciate… These words work wonders on. Men can glow, too, bet you didn’t know that. And they are so awesome when they do because they can’t do enough to try to make you happy when you admire, respect, and appreciate the qualities and actions they feel proudest of themselves.
If you feel this lowers your value, nothing I can do to change your thoughts. All I can say is that men in my life, friends or BFs, all are so good to me. It costs me NOTHING to make them feel good, so why not do it?
m 222
“Why is it such a horror if you make more money than your husband?”
It’s not a horror to us women.
It’s a horror to men.
LC and only a few other commenters here seem to want to address this or deal with it.
Tom10 223
Helen
“Thankfully, to most of the men I know, a happy and fulfilled woman is immensely attractive.”
Well said, I couldn’t agree more. It’s funny; I always mentally picture how attractive people here are according to the tone of their comment.
Fiona
I just want to thank you for answering all the questions and comments even when some of them were quite hostile to you. You have received a lot of heat and I’m impressed with the way you’ve handled it. I’ve been itching to put quite a few thoughts to you myself but have refrained as I don’t want to be just another man taking shots at a single woman. You seem like a genuinely lovely woman and I wish you the best with your search.
I just hope you don’t sacrifice your dream of having children for the sake of meeting a man with particular attributes who may or may not appear. That’d be an awful pity.
m 224
This is a sufficiently interesting article — with some points that still aren’t being discussed here in comments — that I’d like to post a link to the whole thing.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200401/the-new-trophy-wife
Foxie 225
Evan, I am not angry. Not at all.
I am surprised about your last sentence: “aa good guy with self-esteem is gonna kick you to the curb if you don’t give him the affirmation that seems to irk you so”. If he is a guy with self-esteem why would he need my affirmation. And why would he kick me to the curb for not giving it since he does not need it to feel good about himself.
Evan Marc Katz 226
If you think that just because someone has high self-esteem that he doesn’t want to hear nice things about himself, you really don’t understand human nature.
I have (notoriously) high self-esteem and it always means the world when I hear from my wife that I’m funny or smart or a good father. Who doesn’t like a compliment?
Evan Marc Katz 227
Oh, and Foxie? I told you to stop posting here after you insulted me under the name Reddy. Changing your name/email address doesn’t make it all better.
Andrew 228
“My clients and readers often choose men who are tall, dark, handsome, educated, charismatic, and successful. That describes HIM. But how does he make her FEEL? Unimportant. Second-best. Low priority. Stupid. Crazy. Difficult. Yet, she’s STILL holding out for him instead of choosing a man who is devoted to her happiness.”
Tall, dark, handsome, educated, charismatic, and successful men make women feel excited. Such men initially make their hearts (and other parts) all aflutter. This is the “chemistry” that I have seen in the many thousands of online dating profiles I have read. Such exceptional men make life exciting, they create drama that women seem to thrive on, they validate a woman’s attractiveness.
These men also do put their women low on their priority list because they are well aware that there will always been another woman to effortless charm and impress. Such men have “soft harems” of women. Sure, these guys will lead the relationship in exciting ways (“Keep this weekend open and make sure your passport is ready”) but if the woman commits the slighest infraction, she’s swiftly replaced with little regard for her heart or her expectations.
Here comes the dilemma. A man who is devoted to her happiness is too often weak and supplicating. He’s a doormat and that generates neither chemistry nor respect. He must lead in the context of dating and relationships but he must be perceptive enough to know her subtle and unspoken wants and needs so that her happiness is a high priority. Men tend to be rather binary. A large group ends up being doormats because “If momma ain’t happy, no one’s happy” and that kills attraction and respect. The flipside men are the charming cads happily bedhopping and destroying hearts. Someone needs to give that first bunch of men some lessons that women loathe supplicating doormats.
A couple of points regarding “personal growth”. That’s strictly an individual thing, no intimate partner can force it nor should they. Such pressure slays relationships. Besides, if a man acquiesces to such pressure, that shows he is not strong.
I think the women who understand the actual reality of dating and relationship situation past a certain age are the most emotionally healthy and happy. They have internalized in a positive way that they must bring something to the dating and relationship table, something that men actually want. Evan talks about this all the time. His testimonials speak to it, as well.
Many women resist and the irked tone of many comments shows this. They have been taught that femininity is something bad, something to fight against in their own natures. Such women can certainly “date” (code word for pumped & dumped) but why would a man of quality commit to a woman who resists her femininity?
Goldie 229
LOL oh Foxie, Foxie. Shouldn’t a smart woman be able to figure out how to change an IP address? Oh the irony.
Fiona 230
Evan, I think I am beginning to understand how tough you have things on here. If everyone wants to be right all the time that means that everybody else has to be wrong all the time. I guess I am realising that it is OK to be wrong.
Karmic, I always enjoy reading your posts. I genuinely don’t think that being a lawyer makes me more special than the next woman. I know that all that should matter is being kind, considerate and caring. I wish I could say that were enough.
Thanks Tom. That is nice of you to say. We’ll see what happens. I hope that you decide to take the plunge and enter into a meaningful relationship one day. You might be surprised.
RW 231
@EMK
LOL LOL LOL! I did wonder if you were tracking IPs and if someone did just what Foxie/Reddy did. I have my answer. *chuckle*
@Goldie
I think I know that architect
He was endlessly annoying and I had the misfortune of working with him on multiple projects. Thankfully I have changed jobs and haven’t thought about him until now. Funny how the same personalities recur in completely different geographical locations.
@Barry
What Fiona and Goldie said. I would 100% support my husband if he couldn’t work for some reason or if by mutual decision he decided to pursue higher education, etc. Anything else would be unthinkable. But what on earth does that have to do with my desire for a “successful” mate?
Evan Marc Katz 232
Thank you, Fiona. That’s a good observation. And I have no problem with anyone expressing her opinion on here. Tons of dissent abounds. It’s when it turns into “Evan, you’re wrong” or “Evan, you’re a jerk” that I get agitated. Because a) I’m not “wrong”. I have way too much experience and wisdom to be “wrong”. If anything, you can reasonably say that you disagree or that my specific advice doesn’t apply to you, personally. Which is fair. And b) I’m not a jerk. I work hard to tell women what they need to hear (how to understand men) not what they want to hear (validation that men are the problem). If you’re coming here for validation and not a solution then you’ve got the wrong blog. And, in general, there are only two solutions to relationship problems: be a better girlfriend or dump the guy who’s disappointing you. I say both, in equal measures, but I only get shit when I tell women where to take responsibility instead of assigning blame.
The common thread between women who fight with me on here are that don’t want to admit that they should take any responsibility for their predicament. It’s men. Stupid men. Lying men. Perverted men. Slacker men. Online dating. Big cities. Small towns. You name it; it’s everyone BUT you. Problem is that you can’t change ANY of that. You can move to a new city. Try a new dating site. Take a break. Give up. But at the end of the day, you’re the common denominator in your own life. Pointing fingers never gets anybody anywhere. It’s clear as day for me. And I’ll keep on fighting so that more and more women get the message – choose men who treat you well first and everything else is just details. If you refuse to choose men who treat you well, I’ve got nothing for you.
Rochelle 233
@Foxie “ I don’t really understand why you have to reply with calm self-respect if someone irks you or pushes your buttons. If in my relationship, my man would irk or push my buttons on a regular basis I would start wondering if he actually loves and respects me. ”
If a guy pushes your buttons it’s more effective to act calmly. If you react like a psycho to every little thing, it’s a sign of being emotionally unstable and he’ll think he has to walk on egg shells all the time. Sometimes guys push our buttons unintentionally. they do things that they don’t know will bug us. Would you like it if a guy overreacted to every misstep you made? What if you weren’t trying to offend him? If he does something disrespectful on a regular basis, then of course you shouldn’t be with him. But if he realizes it bothers you and stops, it shows he cares. He isn’t perfect but messed up and will take your feelings into account.
Fusee 234
@Karmic Equation #221: spot on!!
Until I turned 30 or so, I was just a regular girlfriend. I had good “credentials” (thin, blonde, highly educated, etc etc) and decent character qualities (honesty, responsability, etc). It was just enough to have so-so relationships. Sadly I was self-absorbed and more critical than appreciative.
Once I learned what Karmic Equation wrote at 221, I started to become a much more pleasant girlfriend. You know, someone you really want to be around, someone you connect emotionally effortlessly. As she said, when it’s true, why not telling him? This willingness to express appreciation truly is necessary for happy relationships. Men and women need that kind of respect, validation, and appreciation. If you do not appreciate him, leave him. If you do, tell him on a regular basis.
The key in giving a real compliment is to be specific like the examples that Karmic Equations gave. Find something true that you appreciate and express it specifically: “I really appreciate that you did the dishes especially since it’s my least favorite chore” or “I really admire your ability to endure a stressful job so that you can provide for our/your children”, etc. Say it, write it, whatever! Do it often, for small stuff and for big stuff.
And you know what? This quality is as essential to other meaningful relationships as it is to your partner. I now also regularly express my appreciation to my friends: admiration of their special qualities, gratitude for the time invested together, appreciation for listening to my venting, etc.
It’s simply telling the truth! It’s not praise if it’s true. How come you would not have any problem saying what you find wrong or bad, but would hesitate validating what’s good about a person?
And since we’re talking about appreciation: Evan, I really find your tolerance amazing, and I appreciate your patience in educating us, straight to the point, logically, repeating as often as needed, and yet with awesome humor thrown in there!
JB 235
Way back @ JustMe #62
It seems like you list a lot of things that aren’t true to get past people’s filters. So I ask Is it ok if a woman posts a picture of someone other than herself, someone better looking as her profile picture with no actual photo of her real self on the site? Etc…………..Is it the same thing or dishonest?
It’s not “ok” and it’s NOT the same thing because online dating is still 98% what you actually look like right now or when you show up at a meet & greet and no matter what statistical bullshit I “embellish”. I show up looking just like or better than my posted pics on Match and that immediately puts a woman at ease along with my personality. I’m also fairly well spoken and intelligent for a man without a “degree”. In other words (and especially for men) if you don’t look like your pics nothing else will matter that you put in your profile truth or otherwise because it will be over and done after 1 drink. For men if we’re not physically attracted to you we could really care less if you’re a surgeon or a cashier, if you make 200K or 25K, have 3 degree’s or a GED. We’re men!!
Highlander 236
It seems very strange to me that the women who have degrees seem unable to do simple math. National Statistics on demographics clearly point out that there is simply not near enough tall, successful men with degrees to go around. Just going by height alone, Men over 6′ comprise less than 15% of the population. Removing those out of the checklist range ( too old, too young, married already) you are getting down to about 5% of the general population. When you add things such as degrees and incomes over $200,000, we are getting into the “Sighting of Unicorns range”. Of men in this tiny category, they tend to be High Alpha types who do not make good marriage material because they can have their choice of attractive women, regardless of education.
Karmic Equation 237
@Fiona 220
Karmic, I always enjoy reading your posts. I genuinely don’t think that being a lawyer makes me more special than the next woman. I know that all that should matter is being kind, considerate and caring. I wish I could say that were enough.
I don’t exactly think that being a lawyer makes you a more special woman
but rather that the profession sets more stringent/special (unspoken) requirements on women and by extension to her choice of partners. In other words, IMO, the PARTNER/HUSBAND of a woman lawyer is judged by a *higher* set of standards than the WIFE of male lawyer. E.g., “Unsuccessful” female arm-candy for the guy is ok, but unsuccessful male arm-candy for the lady, not so much. Moreover, any NEGATIVE judgments on the HUSBAND will reflect negatively on the female lawyer. And negative judgments of the wife don’t usually reflect on the husband. Just my opinion. YMMV.
Hence, I don’t fault a female lawyer for having more status-conscious requirements for a mate than successful women in other professions.
Goldie 238
@ Highlander #236, you’re ending up with the “Sighting of Unicorns range” because you’re adding criteria that are not relevant to Fiona’s letter, such as minimum 6′ height and minimum 200k/year salary requirements. To say that it’s impossible to find an educated man because men over 6′ comprise less than 15% of the population, is slightly illogical, no?
Barry 239
No Goldie the education requirement was a smokescreen
It was only ever about money – do please read what is actually said.
Highlander 240
It is very relevant because it is a common perception by a great many women with degrees that enough of such men are out there that keeps them looking for these unicorns and not considering much of anyone else. All one has to do is look at online dating statistics provided by companies such as OKCupid and others to see this is true. It’s not until many single women hit their 30′s that they start to even question their choices and even then it’s becomes a matter of “Where have all the good men gone” rather than doing the grade six math required to figure it out.
Goldie 241
Gimme a break Barry. Fiona is a lawyer. Why would she need a man to support her? The letter doesn’t even mention the word money, income, or salary once.
Sara 242
I’m not sure if this is the thread with the “lawyers shouldn’t be expected to marry mechanics” comments, (I looked it up on my cellphone, but couldn’t respond). I wanted to say that it may depend on where you live. I live in the midwest and a successful female attorney in my area is happily married to a policeman. I know a lawyer who would gladly date me, but is so socially inept and awkward to talk with that I find even a coffee date with him to be unbearable. I think women should stop looking at education level and his career. I know I have. I’ve met several well-educated men with great jobs who can barely spell.
Sara 243
To all the women on this thread who are looking for a highly educated man, there is a professor who lives near me, he has multiple degrees, single, owns a beautiful home, no ex, no kids, and the school he works for is one of the top private colleges in the country. He makes a lot of money there. So, why is he single, you ask? Probably because he’s very socially inept, kind of weird (as in creepy). But, hey, if education is so important to you…
Barry 244
Goldie
Sorry Goldie, but if you read the threads you would know.
This thread is an offshoot from another thread this month.
She has stated that she is looking for a man to keep her in the luxury she has become accustomed to if she were to give up work to have children.
She is not willing to subsidize a man.
Fiona 245
Thank you Goldie. I don’t need to be using men for money. I would rather be with someone who is not struggling financially but that is not the same thing.
Goldie 246
I read the comment you’re referring to Barry. Fiona says she is worried that, if she marries a man with a significantly lower income, that in event of divorce he may make her pay him alimony. This is a POV one may or may not agree with (personally, I think a decent man with integrity won’t do that to his ex-wife, no matter what his income), but it’s a far cry from “it’s all about money”.
Fiona 247
Barry – How old are you? Why are you not married? Maybe that would be a more productive use of your time than deliberately misinterpreting everything I say and then attacking me for something I never said. I have met your type before – never dated one because I wouldn’t want to.
To be clear to others I am not expecting anyone to keep me in “luxury” – I said if I had children it would be nice to be able to stay at home in the first few years to look after them rather than to support a man to stay home and look after them That’s it! Pretty normal woman when it comes down to it.
Evan Marc Katz 248
Not to take sides, Goldie, but isn’t alimony pretty standard practices for women who divorce their husbands? Do you believe it should be abolished entirely? Or do you just believe that it should be only for women who marry successful men?
And Fiona, I agree that your desire is normal, but isn’t it a little hypocritical to suggest that it’s fair for a man to take care of you while you take time off, but be unwilling to take care of a man if you have the financial capacity to do so? I’ve written about this extensively, but there’s a strong disconnect that modern women haven’t quite squared. If a man makes $300K/year and the woman makes $50K, it’s expected that she won’t lift a finger to pay. If a woman makes $300K/year and the man makes $50K, women are afraid that he’s going to be a leech, a taker and a user. I don’t see my stay at home wife as any of the above, so I would highly encourage you to stop looking at men who make less as drains on your finances. Once you can do this, you will have achieved equality. Until then, you can’t take it too personally if others think that you sound entitled. I really don’t understand why men are expected to take care of their wives, but wives who make more money see something wrong with taking care of their husbands.
Fiona 249
Evan, I hadn’t thought about alimony myself but now that you mention it, it is a good point. Whole new thing to worry about? Maybe I really should stick to me on my earning level.
Fiona 250
Evan, who gets pregnant? Who goes through childbirth? Who breastfeeds? When the man starts doing that, I will happily be back in the office the next day to support him so that he can stay home and be a good mother. Until that day, I think I’d rather be the mother and that means hopefully someone will be the father. What you are suggesting is that I tolerate a male/female role inversion – that is not at all the same thing as accepting a relationship with a man who earns a bit less but who can still support a family for a short period of time for the sake of his children. A role inversion is a deal breaker for me.
Evan Marc Katz 251
Perfect, Fiona. I’m glad I helped you clarify that you can go out with a man who makes less than you as long as he can support a wife and a child.
It only takes about $50K to do so, millions of men make that, so you should have tons of dating options. Congratulations.
Goldie 252
Uhh, Fiona, I could swear I’d seen a comment from you listing that concern; guess not. Then I have no idea why Barry thinks you’re all about the money in your requirements. I just did a search on all your comments in this thread and didn’t see anything of the sort. Puzzed.
Instead of concentrating on a guy’s income before you’ve even met the guy, why don’t you give any man who’s a decent human being a chance, and see what happens? (believe me, “decent human being” would narrow your selection enough — there aren’t that many of those!)
Evan: um, not in my neck of woods it isn’t. I have only heard of one woman who *tried* to get alimony — not sure if she succeeded. Everyone else just gets very modest child support. Some women I know don’t even get that, or they get in on paper and the man manages to get out of paying one way or another. I think alimony is a great way to compensate for a loss in earnings that a woman has taken due to being married and raising a family, i.e. if the couple was married for a good number of years, and if the wife, at a mutual agreement, left her job and stayed at home with the children for a number of years, or switched to part-time work for a number of years, which affected her earning ability, then I think it’s only fair for her to be compensated, because she will never have the career and income she could’ve if she hadn’t sacrificed it for the family. In general though, I think alimony is a relic of the 50s, when dad was a sole provider, mom stayed home with the kids, and mom would be broke should dad walk out on her. I can only speak for my socioeconomic circle though. I have no idea how the 1% works things out in that regard. Whatever they do, it must be working for them, because hey they’re the 1% and I am not.
@ Fiona, I still think this needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis. I mean, show of hands, ladies, who here wouldn’t want to marry Nathan? amirite?
Fiona 253
I always find the income discussions difficult because the cost of living is very different over here.
I think we also should take into account that the people who stay home and look after children are making a valuable contribution to their children rather than sitting at home as “entitled” women taking from the earner. I was lucky enough to be brought up by a mother that gave up work to look after me and my siblings (which was the norm in the 70s). My Dad was lucky enough to find a wife that to date still does all the housework, the laundry, the shopping, the cooking and the ironing. I don’t think he sees her as an entitled woman that has been a drain on his resources all these years either. They just have different roles – her role has not been any easier than his.
Barry 254
What Evan says !
marymary 255
Evan
yes my brother makes about that much and has supported his wife and children gladly for ten years. he’s an engineer. He does have degree. He works for a top company you’ve heard of. He just got promoted.
he also has the time and energy, as he’s not long hours, to spend time with his family, including whole days regularly.
that’s a big part of being a father and husband. Many will tell you that bringing home the bacon is not enough.
He can’t afford a big holiday every year or private school.
you can,t have it all on one salary for any length of time unless he is rich. Yes there are rich men. they tend to be popular.
Even I’d date one. I like nice houses, gardens, designer stuff, holidays and financial security as much as the next person.
It,s wonderful to have all of that and a good husband and a good father who is loyal and will love you when youre no longer young and pretty. No woman would turn that down. Why don’t we all have it?
if I had two degrees and were more intelligent would i know the answer to this conundrum?
Fiona 256
Goldie I did make a comment about financial disputes being the main cause of divorce although I hadn’t thought much about the financial consequences so much as the emotional ones. Barry wants to believe that I am all about the money so he can think what he likes. I know that I am not all about money. That doesn’t mean that I want to be a man’s financial support though. I doubt that most decent men would want that any more than I do.
Evan Marc Katz 257
I never said you were all about the money, Fiona. I think you’re expressing a very valid and common concern. I do believe, however, that there is a double standard that says that it’s okay for a man to support his wife but not for a wife to support her husband. We have many threads that provide evidence of this.
Love depends on compromise. So I can’t tell you what to compromise on; I will say that you’ll have to compromise on SOMETHING.
Fiona 258
Evan, I agree and I am starting to compromise on many things.
I know that you never said that my preference was all about money. That was just Barry who genuinely seems at a total loss as to why smart women connect better with smart men.
Helen 259
My guess is that Barry and Zaq are the same person, based on writing style.
Fiona, don’t let yourself get drawn into a conversation in which you feel you must defend yourself along the lines of “I’m not all about money.” From the start, you never said you were, and I for one believe you.
Now I’m going to backtrack from something Goldie and I debated on a previous post (Goldie, you win). I do think having similar educational levels is important, so that the couple has something to talk about and so that there can be a true meeting of the minds. Educational level is not always measured by degrees, though, and certainly the person’s character is far more important. That’s why I feel some sympathy for the laundromat owner in the original story, whom Fiona passed up. Giving other people a chance to prove their true colors – whether beautiful or ugly colors – is always a good thing.
Henriette 260
I absolutely love this thread; it’s brought a wide variety of fascinating sub-topics to the fore. Evan: thank you for giving us a venue to discuss matters that are too-rarely frankly explored in “regular” life. And Fiona: a sincere thank you for sending a letter that has sparked such a vibrant discussion while making you a lightning rod. I might be writing Evan a letter of my own, soon, and don’t look forward to the stream of criticism that will no doubt follow, should he decide to publish it!
Regarding Alimony… Goldie: I am pleasantly surprised you know few cases of alimony. I am surrounded by them: 1%ers as well as those with far, far less money. In fact, I know one professor who comes from a very wealthy family but doesn’t have vast riches, himself; his soon-to-be ex-wife is suing not only him but also his parents for alimony, since his parents occasionally help him out financially (eg. bought him a house in central London when he & his family moved there for his job). The sense of entitlement and viciousness never fails to astound.
Evan, I actually do believe that alimony should be overhauled (not obliterated, mind you, but thoroughly changed). I don’t think any woman, or man, should be given half of what a spouse earned. The word “alimony” links to “food, nourishment” and the idea was that neither spouse should starve after a divorce: not that one person be allowed to take half of another’s money. I do believe that children are better off raised by a parent than handed over to daycare/a nanny at birth, but how much would one pay to a ’round the clock, educated nanny/housekeeper? At most, $120K/year. So, if a spouse stayed home during to raise children, I believe he/she should either receive the equivalent of half of what he/she earned in his/her most recent job, or $60K/year (half of the $120k), as well as any child support that might be required.
And Evan, I do think that if a man earns $300K and his, $50K that she should put most of her money into their communal expenses. She’s living at a much higher standard of living than that which she could ever afford, herself; why shouldn’t she be happy to put most of her money towards this? I know plenty of wealthy men (1% kind of wealth) and those who are not control freaks are touched and impressed by people with less money who insist on paying their own way… or, as much of their own way as they can (and the majority of 1%ers I know are control freaks, but who wants them, anyway?!).
Locutus 261
My oh my. I can not believe some of the posts on here, specifically from Reddy, DLR, and the OP- Fiona. I’ll tell you something, you might have a lot of degrees, but when it comes to dating and relationships….you’re all dumb as a rock!!! Clueless. And yes your education definitely makes you not pretty, as was stated by somebody prior. What is not pretty is not the fact that you have a high level of education, but how that high level of education has suddenly turned you into stuck up, cold and arrogant. How come people like Karmic Equation and Soul can easily see the whole picture and what the real important things are? I am not sure what their levels of education are, but they are clearly far more intelligent than any of you. In fact you 3 are so arrogant that you disagree with Evan every single time he has tried to advise you. If you’re so smart and successful about relationships and pretty much everything (according to you) then why are you here?
Reddy, we saw your true colors come out when you insulted Evan and even brought up totally different discussions that had nothing to do with the topic. You also made incredibly major and really insulting assumptions about Evan. Wow, and this is intelligence? Do you make wild assumptions like this at your job? If so, I wouldn’t expect you to last long. And lastly for Fiona, what in the world makes you think the guy who was the Laundry operator has any interest in dating someone like you? You may not be in his league.
To Soul and Karmic, it’s useless to continue to try to explain and rationalize things to people like this. They are not capable of understanding.
Fiona 262
Locutus, thanks for your comments. That sort of attitude really inspires me to date men with lower education. Where can I find soemone like you? I can hardly wait to be berated like that all night. You might want take a look at your own insulting attitude before launching into others.
Highlander 263
Locutus they will get it eventually….the Wall cometh ;~) Once they do the math I mentioned earlier, they’ll see the point… whether thye can force themselves to accept it is another thing entirely.
Fiona 264
Good luck to you too Highlander. Bitterness is not an attractive quality so guys like you and Locutus had maybe better figure that out. I don’t know too many women looking for men that will accuse them of being ‘dumb as a rock’ so I think you may struggle a bit.
Kathleen 265
Locutus
Excellent observation.
Karmic Equation 266
@Fiona
That was just Barry who genuinely seems at a total loss as to why smart women connect better with smart men.
Education DOES NOT equal “smart”. And being smart in one area doesn’t necessarily make you smart in others. You are obviously “booksmart” but relationship-smart, not so much, else you wouldn’t be late 30′s without an LTR partner.
The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. I think you’re not getting this.
If you continue to think GONE TO UNIVERSITY = SMART, you are bypassing a HUGE pool of dating prospects.
I couldn’t post the link to the article I wanted to from Chateau Heartiste (http://heartiste.wordpress.com/) site — but I think you should go there and search for the HOT GIRL CRAZY article. No disrespect, but I think that might be part of your “issue” (perhaps more applicable to you in your youth than now, but there seems to be some lingering effects). I loved the phrasing “hot girl’s problems are ugly girl’s wishlists.” A well-turned phrase, imo. Unkind but not untrue.
Karmic Equation 267
Sorry for double post…I should have put a disclaimer on my link. The Chateau Heartiste site is not for those easily offended. And if you already have a poor opinion of men, you really SHOULD NOT read it! This is a blog for “players.”
I don’t agree with the tone (with is pretty misogynistic) but the concepts in some articles, if you can ignore your feelings of offense, are eye-opening and, unfortunately, sometimes hit a nerve.
Evan Marc Katz 268
I agree that the author is misogynistic – and is not indicative of the kind of man that my readers want. If he truly values hundreds of women over one lasting love, it doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy; it does mean he’s a bad potential partner. Yet just because someone is not a good potential partner doesn’t mean he doesn’t have something valuable to contribute.
If you can get past his impossibly arrogant writing style – filled with 5 dollar words that are meant to impress – there’s a few kernels of truth in here:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/hot-girl-crazy/
But as Karmic wrote, it’s not for the easily offended. Nor does it apply to the OP, Fiona, who I’m guessing isn’t “hot and crazy” but rather smart/educated and having trouble finding a reasonable compromise point for her partner.
Fiona 269
For all the people on here who have felt the need to personally insult me, I don’t stoop to lows of issuing personal insults because I have no idea how painful it would be for the person on the other end to receive them. Resorting to personal attacks for me just means that you lose your own dignity. It doesn’t add anything productive to a discussion.
To be clear the laundry guy I met at the speed dating event was unattractive and inarticulate. I actually felt sorry for him and spend the whole time trying to put him at ease. I did not tick him afterwards because I did not want to date him. I did not insult him to his face or be rude to him in anyway because that isabout the kind of person I am or that I aspire to be. I spoke to the doctor afterwards when people had already left when I said that I doubted I would go to another such event.
At the end of the day I know I behaved with common decency which is a lot more than you have shown me. I only hope it makes you feel good about yourselves. It makes me quite sad to think how people throw insults around so easily with no thought about how it might make the other person feel.
(Agreed, Fiona. People should offer constructive, not destructive criticism of your position. Constructive is designed to help. Destructive is designed to hurt. Sorry to put you through what I go through every day. It gets tiring, doesn’t it? – EMK)
Fiona 270
It does rather. Don’t worry – in my line of work I’ve been called worse things…it goes with the territory.
Highlander 271
Why is it when somebody point’s out the obvious they are attacked as being bitter? All I’ve said was that demographics point out that the type men being sought after by professional women are in very short supply. If these women are so far superior in their education, I find it puzzling they could not have figured this out. One can Google this information up in about five minutes, if you don’t believe me I suggest you do the research. If you reside in the USA, the US Census Bureau is a good place to start.
Goldie 272
@ Highlander, I am still confused re: your “simple math” post above. you started with limiting the pool of available men to 15%, because that’s how many of them are six feet or taller. You then calculate how many of these tall men are single, available, looking to date women, college educated, make over 200K and sure enough come up with a tiny number. May I gently point out that you were the first person on this thread to mention the height requirement. No one here said that a man must be over six feet tall or else. Mine isn’t, and I’m doing just fine. By throwing in an irrelevant criteria right away, you immediately limit the numbers. Going by level of education alone, according to the 2009 census results, 27% of men between ages 25 and 34 have a bachelor’s degree or higher. That’s not a unicorn sighting range as you said, that’s more than one in every four. Only thing Fiona was asking about in her letter is whether she has to date men with a lower education level. Height, wealth, girth, etc are all good criteria (I guess) but not relevant to her letter. Education-wise, the numbers are good. It did take me five minutes to google it, just like you said.
nathan 273
Highlander, Barry, and the rest – I think you’re all coming at this in an entirely too black or white, all or nothing mindset. The women you speak of are small subset of all women. In all my years of dating well educated women with decent to higher paying jobs, I can recall only a handful who were so fixated on money and perfect 10 looks that they rejected me and every other guy they met. And frankly, none of those women would fall into the financially successful category. From what I have seen, both in reading online and in my own dating life, the issues for women are more about having a few too many fixed expectations about men in general. What those things are vary from woman to woman. But it’s the sense of not knowing what things are most important to having a great, healthy relationship, and what things are just extra. Overall, men aren’t that different. We may not have the long lists of “requirements,” but many of us sure seem to struggle to let go of the supermodel who showers our ego with love fantasies of our teen and early 20 years.
Karmic – there are countless reasons why people are single or not in LTR’s in their late 30s. Fiona’s responses have demonstrated flexibility and a willingness to listen, a rare quality online. I don’t agree with every last point she makes, but I think you are lumping her in with a crowd she doesn’t belong in. This issue of smarts, for example. I didn’t hear her outright reject men without college degrees.
I think it’s fine to be open to dating people regardless of university education level, but also know that the majority of good candidates will come from those who have degrees. I have an MA. I have dated a few women without college degrees in recent years. It can work. And as Sara wrote somewhere above, some well educated folks have such poor social skills that they struggle to be attractive to anyone. (Go hang out in academia awhile if you need examples of this.) So, I’m open, but I also think it’s just fine to have some filters you usually use. There’s only so much time in a life. Going on dates with anyone and everyone may be fun when you’re young, but eventually it gets tiring.
RW 274
Wow…every time I come back here the insults keep getting better. The sad thing is some of you actually have valid points to make but they get lost in the accusatory language and terrible tone of the post. There’s a reason they say “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar” – it’s true!! I find myself more willing to listen and accept things that are outside my current set of beliefs if they are presented in a rational, non-attacking manner. I also appreciate tempered sarcasm but again, wow. To be clear, I’m talking about posts from both men and women – I started skimming Reddy’s after the 2nd one because the content was ridiculous and the tone extremely abrasive.
Fiona, a big hug from me. It’s never pleasant to be the target of a witch hunt.
Evan Marc Katz 275
@Goldie – Instead of focusing on height, you should concede the validity of Highlander’s claim:
27% of men have a bachelor’s degree. But how many have a masters or a doctorate? 10.9% As we’ve heard here, many women who have advanced degrees want a man who has one, too.
Similarly, if you make $100k and want a man who makes the same thing or more, that leaves you with 5% of the population or so.
Of course, that 5% has to overlap with the first 10.9%.
We haven’t even talked about body type, personality, sense of humor, religion, politics, common interests, geography, age, desire for marriage and children and all the other variables that prevent people from connecting. So when Highlander points out that insisting on a certain level of education lowers the number of options you have, he’s absolutely right. Anything you make into a dealbreaker becomes a dealbreaker. Anything you won’t compromise on, you won’t compromise on. Those who do compromise on any of the above have a greater number of options.
Karmic Equation 276
@Fiona 258
Evan, I agree and I am starting to compromise on many things.
Just started to re-read some posts and this one sentence stood out.
Maybe I’m reading into it, Fiona, but the way this sentence sounds, you are not happy having to compromise. Almost like you’re being forced into it. While that may be the case, I really would suggest changing the word “compromise” in your head to a positive word like “shifting your perspective” or something like that. If you feel you’re “compromising too much” you’re going to like whoever you end up with is someone you “had to settle” for. And that subconscious negative thought/feeling is going affect your relationship.
Better to re-start your search by “optimizing the criteria” or whatever positive phrases work for you so that when you date those folks meeting the new criteria, you don’t have subconscious negative feelings brought on by the term “compromise” which, when it comes to men, obviously gives you a negative feeling.
I wish you the best.
Locutus 277
Fiona #262,
Insulting huh? Hold a mirror up to yourself. You are nothing, but arrogant and insulting of people in the supposed ‘lower realm’ than you. I am a lower education level than you? Really? I have a masters degree in Engineering from a reputable school. You assuming again?? I’ve dealt with people who have high school degrees to people with doctorates in particle physics from MIT. I’ve dealt with floor workers to CEO’s to company owners that are worth 9 figures. I don’t really care what level of education or intelligence you claim…it’s meaningless in a relationship compared to a persons character, how they treat others, and what type of person they are.
Goldie 278
Evan, good point. There are enough real deal-breakers out there (serial player, drug addict, violent abuser with anger issues) to add new variables, like specific degree requirement or income cutoff, to the equation.
Glad that we could find the middle ground!
With that in mind, I do not like the term compromising. Or settling. How about instead, we call this process setting our priorities straight? Because, to me, that is what it really is. I don’t settle for a man who makes 95K where before my cutoff was 100, I ignore that part entirely (as long as he can support himself and a family) and look at his human qualities instead. These human qualities might include being a responsible worker and enjoying what they do for a living to some degree. Still work-related, but sounds different than “I need a man to make six figures or else”. This will also help filter out the douchebags that would’ve otherwise made the cut just because their salary happens to be in the six figures. Kind of along the lines of what Karmic Equation #276 is saying.
@ Helen #259 – Oh my! What did I win?
Michelle 279
Fiona, I think you’ve done a great job expressing yourself and being open to listening (especially #250). There’s nothing wrong with having preferences in dating…so what if it narrows the field? Simply having a man is not the goal in my mind, it’s finding someone we’re compatible with and recognizing there’s no such thing as having 100% and I have also come to believe there’s no one that’s even ‘perfect for us’. There is just no perfection in this world.
I’ve dated a lot of different kinds of men, and being a professional woman, led me to honing my preference to a “professional” man. He could be the owner of a construction company or a sales person in high tech…it was that kind of life experience, lifestyle and type of conversations I like to have and these are the kinds of men that I found to be most attractive to me. I had plenty of men to choose from who fell into this category, it’s a world of ABUNDANCE not scarcity.
Ultimately, in my experience, dating a lot of people and different kinds of people in a conscious way, leads us to what we really find attractive, makes us feel good and shows us what is really important to us.
Soul 280
If it can help (I know it did help me), 10 years ago, I read a piece of dating advice from a psychologist that really helped me: if you are smart and serious in finding the right man for you, when looking for Mr. right, you are only allowed to have 3 non-negotiables (i.e. 3 dealbreakers on the checklist), and most of them should be on personality/character. That’s it. 3. not 4, not 10. And they must be based on your assessment of a man’s personality (i.e. that takes a little bit of time).
So i know my non-negotiables were (and still are):
- He has integrity:he does what he says and he says what he does
- He is Smart: my definition of smart is how acute and tolerant he is with people’s differences/cultures/personalities etc.
- He really loves ME and I love HIM (i.e. who we really are): I want him to care for me as a human being, I want him to still love me if i lost everything material
Those are my personal non-negotiables. What are yours? they will be different from one person to the other. But they need to be related to moral qualities. For instance, instead of requiring financial success, you might say that you want a man you can trust knows how to make things happen when he sets his mind to achieving something, who is a go-getter and does not quit until he has reached his objective (hhhmmmm, now that’s attractive!!!), and so on…. now this man could be a laundry man of any our profession, but you’d still feel secure and protected around him…
Highlander 281
Goldie, you girls certainly like avoiding certain terms like “Settling” at all costs, Settling is something few women will admit to until after the divorce ;~) “Setting our priorities straight”, well I guess we’ll have to settle for that …
Soul 282
Sorry i meant “now this man could be a laundry man or any other profession”
Fusee 283
I agree with Karmic Equation @276 and Goldie @278 about adjusting the choice of words. It indeed comes down to the question of your relationship goals and priorities.
(Generic you):
What is your #1 priority? Showing off a “successful” partner? Being taken care of by a good provider? Life-long marriage and children? All of these might sound good to you, but it’s useful to define the TOP priority and focus on that one first.
Then, before even “compromising”, it would be beneficial to understand the correlation between must-have qualities and external factors that seem to reflect them but may actually not. If you’re really after an intellectual connection, then go on dates with someone who shares the same top priority goals and who is reasonnably attractive and ask questions that will reveal your ability to connect intellectually as a couple. Do not make assumptions based on education level and therefore miss out on valuable prospective partners. As multiple commenters have explained, there is no correlation between degree and actual intelligence or even the ability to connect intellectually with YOU. Sure, having attended college shows some intellectual curiosity, can give hope for some better verbal/writing skills, and demonstrate some ambition. But all of these qualities can be developed in other ways, and having obtained an advanced degree is not the only sign of ambition. It’s important to be honest with yourself. Is it REALLY intellectual connection that you’re after? If yes, then it’s not even compromising to lower your educational requirements since doing that does not mean compromising on intellectual connection. It’s understanding how things are related and how they are not. It’s being intelligent! Now, if what you are after as top priority is maintaining/increasing status, fine. But be honest about it. It’s unhelpful to lie to yourself and pretend that you want something deeper such as an intellectual connection when what you truly want is the flashy external characteristics.
(End of generic you.)
Now, Fiona, after reading your last comments as well as your comments from previous threads where you wrote about how much you wish to be a mom, I’m still unsure of what you truly want. At times I have to admit that you came across to me as someone looking for a high-status partner while trying to justify your preferences as a need for “compatibility”, whereas at other times I thought you simply did not understand how the external qualities you’re after do not overlap at all with what you actually need. Once you figure out what you TRULY need by order of priorities, you will know better what kind of men to give a chance to and see what nice-to-have would come as part of the deal.
And finally, dating a man with a lower educational level is indeed pretty much necessary for a women with an advance degree, given how few men have such degrees. But it does not mean giving up with intelligence and intellectual connection. It also does not mean going on dates with manual laborers when you are a lawyer. Anyway such men do not usually seek highly educated women as partner, so it should not be too much of a concern.
Good luck, Fiona!
Fiona 284
Locutus I can only assume that your mean spirited attacks on me make you feel big. I hope one day you overcome it because I can assure you the only people it will impress are those that are equally mean spirited. I am not nasty and mean spirited towards those that are less smart or less educated. I simply choose to date men that are on a similar intellectual level which is hardly the same thing.
Karmic, with respect, I really don’t owe you an explanation of what compromises I am prepared to make. I will no doubt by ‘happy’ to compromise when I find a compromise that I am happy with. It is for me and me alone to decide what that compromise will be and if I am not ‘happy’ I shan’t. I think the the term ‘compromise’ is fine. After all every relationship involves putting what you as an individual really want for the overall good of the relationship. I do ‘get it’ – getting your point and agreeing with you are not however the same thing. I did not appreciate the ‘hot and crazy’ insinuation nor do I appreciate your suggesting that I know nothing about relationships just because I am still single. You have made compromises that I would never entertain and that many would regard as unwise e.g. Non-exclusive relationships. It is not for me judge you for that. All that matters is that you are happy with the compromise you made. The same applies to me.
Aisling 285
@Nic, #205. Thank you for your kind response. I was wrong about you being blonde, but you sound gorgeous, nonetheless. I don’t know that I necessarily want to date a neurosurgeon. But, I am in the medical field as well (oncology physician assistant). I find that I require lots of alone and down time, so would do very well with someone who works alot. As long as I could trust hm. Unlike General Petraeus. <grin>. Refreshing that you and your beau are similar ages.
Best of luck to you and your guy!
Aisling 286
@Fiona: You do not need to justify your criteria and choices to anyone. Everyone’s experiences and interpretations are their own.
I was married when I was very young, never had kids. I do not regret the marriage, wrong as it was, because it showed me that there are far worse things in life than being single.
At my age (51) I mostly attract men 10+ years older. I wouldn’t mind if they were in good shape. But the odds are that I would be taking care of them. I won’t do that unless I have a history with them, and was recipient of some of the good times. Men mostly wouldn’t date women 10 years older than them. Double standard. John and Yoko were an outlier. John left Cynthia for a woman 7 years older than him.
Anyway, you do not come across as snooty or unrealistic to me.
I hope you do find what you want. But if you don’t, you are better off alone than settling. You can have kids via sperm donor or a willing friend. That’s probably what I would do if I was younger and *really* wanted kids.
marymary 287
I agree with Fusee at 283. I’m confused too by what Fiona actually wants as well. Sorry to be treating you like a case study Fiona!
Many comments ago, I did suggest ways to meet successful men but you then said you weren’t looking for a relationship. If you don’t want a relationship then all our ways of telling you how to get into a relationship are going to be perceived as pushy and unhelpful (though some are pushy and unhelpful).
And you dont’ have to take any of your negative experiences personally. I’ve been asked out/approached by pimps, drug dealers, someone on day release from a secure mental health unit, the homeless, teenagers, men over 40 years older than me, young offenders, and lesbians. I dont’ feel that I’m expected to date them. I’m not insulted. I don’t defend my position. It’s kinda amusing, even touching sometimes.
You don’t have to date the laundry guy. I think your only error there was to voice your dissatisfaction. When you’re out and about and looking to connect just alway be positive unless it really is diabolical (eg if there’s rats, cockroaches, or a loud Elvis impersonator). Complain afterwards in the safety of your own home.
I run networking events for lawyers and IP professionals. At a recent event of mine a woman your age turned up. Within minutes she was surrounded by men. It’s a male dominated field. It can happen if you don’t get sidetracked by the negative. I don’t think you should date the laundry guy either. I also don’t think it’s any of your concern if he’s unattractive or inarticulate and you don’t even have to put him at his ease. You dont’ owe him any favours.
I’m also puzzled as to why it’s so difficult to meet your intellectual equals. I’ve never found that to be a problem and I was the most academically successful pupil in my year at school. (I did go off the rails though so I probably wouldn’t meet your criteria if I was a man! )
I wonder if this is a red herring and is there’s a deeper issue that is beyond a dating advice website (if Evan doesn’t mind me saying so).
You are still young enough that “sperm donor” and “single for the rest of your life” are not your only options. Those are good options if they work for you. If not, you can choose different. It’s your life.
Is my boyfriend smart? Yes he is. He doesn’t have a degree because his parents pushed him into something he didn’t want to do. He rebelled and travelled around the world, working in various countries. If I said “must have a degree” I wouldn’t be with him now and I would have missed out.
I got talking to the errand boy at an exhibition in Geneva. Turned out his father was a top Swiss surgeon and he himself was on holiday from university and just earning some pocket money.
Just be careful of having a fixed idea of what the man should have achieved, look like, earn, do, and what lifestlye you will have. That person and that life is only a fantasy. The funny thing is that reality is better.
Goldie 288
Highlander, but this is exactly what I’m talking about. I’m way past my divorce and I still say I didn’t settle when I got married. He was tall and good-looking, we had crazy chemistry, and he loved animals. What more could a girl want in a future husband, right? Heck he even had a degree, same as mine (like I said above, we met in college). I didn’t settle, I just chose him for all the wrong reasons. As for him, he probably didn’t even have a say in it, poor guy. He was my friend’s roommate, I went after him and got him before he knew what hit him. Looking back, everything we could’ve done wrong getting into this relationship, we did. Hopefully next time, we’ll both use better guidelines in choosing our partners (I’m already doing that and so far it works great for me).
Liz 289
So based on Evan’s comments, the fact the CFO and I were talking/joking about about wanting the top .01% of the population sounds about right. Fit, attractive, highly educated, kind, funny, world traveled, attracted back to us, ect. We all make concessions, and the fact I was married quite young, had my children, and have my career, allows me to make different decisions than women that are facing a timeline to have children (this whole sequence throws dating for a loop and I find unfair). We all want love, we all have to have some kind of criteria in the dating pool. Based on your own ability to attract a mate, we have to be fluid. I am not 23 anymore, 34 actually, so getting the 43 year fit, attractive, highly educated, ect., probably won’t happen. They have 20 year olds. I have done the best I can to take care of myself, maintained a size 6, hair/makeup, the works (men are so darn visual its funny). Maintaining my feminine side in a male dominated work world has been difficult (I am a civil trial litigator).I never want to be hardened. I have made compromises, mainly on age, if I increase my age range there are plenty of great guys to spend time with.
Karmic Equation 290
@Fiona 284
“I really don’t owe you an explanation of what compromises I am prepared to make.”
Hmmm…In none of my posts on this particular thread have I stated or implied that you owed me any explanation about any compromises you will or won’t make. So please don’t put words in my mouth.
“I did not appreciate the ‘hot and crazy’ insinuation nor do I appreciate your suggesting that I know nothing about relationships just because I am still single.”
Nor was I expecting you to appreciate them. You were supposed to read the article and reflect on whether any kernels applied to you. I think a few do:
- She has begun accusing you of things you clearly have not done.
- She puts words in your mouth for the sole purpose of inventing fights.
- She overanalyzes the most trivial and innocuous inconsistencies.
- She thinks the world is against her, and you’re not helping.
And you’re doing this on a blog to a woman whose only fault is to imply that you may be your own wosrt enemy and your perspective is one of the reasons you’re failing to find a fulfilling relationship. You sometimes sound really nice and reasonable and sometimes you’re all over the place:
From your post #250
“Evan, who gets pregnant? Who goes through childbirth? Who breastfeeds?”
The rest of this post doesn’t even pertain to this thread. Why introduce it??
From your post #253
“I think we also should take into account that the people who stay home and look after children are making a valuable contribution to their children rather than sitting at home as “entitled” women taking from the earner…They just have different roles – her role has not been any easier than his.”
How come these values only apply to stay-at-home-women? If you marry a man making less than you and he becomes a stay-at-home dad while you bring home the bacon, suddenly his contribution in this regard is not as high as a woman’s?
Lastly, MY relationship or choices shouldn’t be made part of this discussion. But since you brought them up…
My once-player, alpha bf is exclusive with me now. He even asked me to marry him. I didn’t say yes and I didn’t say no. I managed to defer the discussion in an ironic gender-inverted conversation…
HIM: I want to marry you.
ME: Why would you want to marry me? I’m a lot older than you. [13 yrs]
HIM: I don’t care about that.
ME: YOu’re going to want kids. I can’t give them to you. [Tubes tied]
HIM: You can undo that if you want.
ME: I suppose.
HIM: If you don’t want to marry me, then why are you with me?
ME: Because I love you and love spending time in your company. I love you but let’s talk about this another time, babe.
While he’s a pretty good bf, checks in several times a day, spends every night with me, he’s still got some bad habits I’m not crazy about (drinks too much; a little too quick to judge people). So why marry him and worry about how I’ll deal with those bad habits if I’m “locked in via marriage” to those bad habits? I can keep the status quo that makes me happy without marriage so why change the status quo?
As you know I started out this “relationship” as a booty call, then became his main squeeze in his “soft harem”, then became his only woman. I didn’t compromise ANYTHING but I did strategically de-value/value monogamy at the right times in our relationship. When I was emotionally unavailable, monogamy wasn’t important. 6 months later, we’ve said the L-word (he said it first) — and of course now I expect monogamy and so far he’s living it. What compromise did I make? And I didn’t settle. He’s a fantastic smart, sexy, alpha who keeps me on my toes. I’m happy without having compromised anything. I’ve never had a checklist. My only requirements are that the guy is a good guy who is good to me and someone I enjoy spending time with, even in silence.
Sara 291
I have tried to stay out of this one. I used to think that I wanted an equally educated man, but have since taken that off my list (for reasons I’ve already posted) but I do want to make one comment to Karmic:
From your post #250
“Evan, who gets pregnant? Who goes through childbirth? Who breastfeeds?”
The rest of this post doesn’t even pertain to this thread. Why introduce it??
Um….Yeah, it does, and Fiona has already explained in many different ways why. I’m not sure why you are enjoying baiting Fiona, Karmic, but I also want to throw my own two cents in on the following comment:
How come these values only apply to stay-at-home-women? If you marry a man making less than you and he becomes a stay-at-home dad while you bring home the bacon, suddenly his contribution in this regard is not as high as a woman’s?
I have two kids, and have raised them exclusively by myself, although not by my choice. I worked part-time and went to college full-time, with my first (he was 1 year old when I went, 5 when I graduated.) And have worked full-time since. I want to point out to men on this thread, and women who have not had children, that a woman’s hormones kick in after child birth, to help her “bond” with the baby, a word that is thrown out there so often that we forget what it means. It is mother nature’s way of ensuring that the mother feeds and cares for and protects the child. 40 years of feminism is not going to undo what many millenia of evolution have done. Asking a woman who has spent 9 months sharing her body with another, growing human being, to go back to work so that daddy can play mom is b.s. in my opinion. For the reasons Fiona has already stated. You expect her to express her milk at work, so that dad can feed the baby breast milk from a bottle? You expect mom to surpress her natural, hormonal reaction, so that she can still be considered “equal”?
In another country, men also get “paternity leave.” This is ideal. Both parents at home, dad can help mom while she heals physically, etc. But to act as if the mother is simply an incubator, as an excuse for dad to stay home is crap. That being said, once the kid is a little older, then I would say, “Heck ya, let dad stay home while I go to work!” And I don’t think many mothers would disagree with that.
Fiona 292
Karmic, I am happy that you found what you are looking for. I appreciate that you may not mean to be offensive but I wouldn’t think it my place to be pointing out to someone I have never met what ‘hot and crazy’ issues I think they have in relationships or tell them that they know nothing about relationships just because they are single in their late 30s and don’t share my views on certain things any more than it is for me to judge you for your unconventional start to your relationship. That was really the point that I was making. I have no issue with stay at home fathers if that works for a couple – I would just prefer to be a stay at home mother so that I could breastfeed a child and be there for as long as I can. That’s all.
Marymary, you are right that I was taking a break to recover from a bad experience before moving on. It would be nice to have a relationship but only if it is fulfilling. I am conscious that choosing a life partner isn’t just about choosing a partner but also a way of life. I have had to ask myself the question earlier this year whether I would be happy living in a small town in an area of the country that I really don’t like and where there are really no good jobs in my field within commuting distance in order to be in a relationship with a nice man who has always lived there are cannot ever imagine leaving and I had to admit that I felt stifled by the prospect. I do appreciate your tips e.g. re networking but they are more appropriate to London than the South West where I currently live where there are fewer networking opportunities (although I am making the most of those that I do have).
Lady 293
This bothers me a bit. I don’t mind people being told to open their horizons, but to demand that this woman puts aside what appear to be her most basic requirements in order to find someone in life is really sad. It echoes what is often told to Black women- “well, you should just be happy to have somebody!” So, we are basically valueless and should just take whatever is offered to us? Women look for comfort, intelligence, and security. Those are the basic requirements women seek in a mate. Men look for beauty and fertility. Should we suggest to older men that they should marry whomever they can get- obese and unattractive alike? Men would balk at the notion of dating someone that’s not up to snuff in their opinion, especially since some men don’t have the self-awareness to fully evaluate themselves. (For example, I saw a 5 foot tall, fat bald man trying to pick up a girl who could have easily been a model.) Really? But women are jerks for having standards?
I mean, can a neurosurgeon marry a janitor? Sure. One has a medical degree and one could possibly be a high school drop out. What do they talk about when they are at home? Is there bitterness or anxiety on the part of the lower earning spouse?
I understand that Mr. Katz is trying to say don’t overlook people based on a checklist of myriad requirements, but I don’t think women should suspend most of their requirements as they will likely end up unhappy or feeling unfulfilled. And this is coming from someone who is married to someone who does not make as much money as me and is not as ambitious as me.
I feel like if you cannot find someone who meets your idea of an ideal partner- and I’m not talking about a 100 point list, but maybe 10 basic requirements, then you shouldn’t just marry any old person. The divorce rate is high enough.
Karmic Equation 294
@Sara
“You expect her to express her milk at work, so that dad can feed the baby breast milk from
a bottle?”
Not sure which country you are from, but in the USA, that is exactly what is done by the
woman breadwinners.
One of the managers here is married to a cop. She makes more money than her cop husband. She
took her allotted 6 week maternity leave upon having her child. Now that she’s back at work,
expresses her milk and takes that home. They both work to provide for their family. Child is
in daycare when dad’s not home. This is their 2nd child. Same happened with their first.
They’re a happy, attractive couple.
Having the ability to bear a child doesn’t give the woman the RIGHT to stay at home. Just
like being able to father a child doesn’t OBLIGE a man to be the breadwinner. Yes, it would
be great if the woman can stay at home and the guy goes back to work. No one’s denying that
is the preferred situation. But if the woman makes more money than the man, then it makes
sense that she goes back to work. If she doesn’t want to do that, then she needs to make do
on her husband’s salary.
@Fiona 292
“I am conscious that choosing a life partner isn’t just about choosing a partner but also a way of life. I have had to ask myself the question earlier this year whether I would be happy living in a small town in an area of the country that I really don’t like and where there are really no good jobs in my field within commuting distance in order to be in a relationship with a nice man who has always lived there [and] cannot ever imagine leaving and I had to admit that I felt stifled by the prospect.”
Fiona, if you had said yes to that question, you’d definitely be crazy.
I’m curious how did you meet this man? Did you date him a while before you realized where he lived? Or did you know that upfront?
Soul 295
I really hope some ladies on this thread will reflect on themselves and see how biased they are in favor of their own gender, they are illogical despite their high level of education. They think and act as if women should be entitled to everything, but they deny any right to men. The latter seem to just be good to “deserve” the burden of working hard, making money, and feeding women and their offspring should they want it….. IMHO, this is ridiculous !!!
This is a good proof, for me, that education might provide people with knowledge, but it does nothing to help people think…. Don’t let your emotions/culture/gender biases come into the way of what should be a rational analysis, this is not intellectually interesting… it is exhausting for the others (and is anything but smart….)
Fiona 296
Karmic, other people have different views than you and are entitled to do so. I don’t see why you feel the need to argue about it. No-one is expressing any issues with stay at home Dads – we are saying it is not for us which is entirely reasonable. You can keep extolling the virtues of women going back work six weeks after having a baby (which in the Euopean Union would be regarded as insanity thankfully where by law we get six months at least depending on the country) but you can’t say to people who want to be mothers that stay at home with children for a while (which is a natural desire) that they should be stay at home mothers or that they should be breadwinners because that is what your colleague did or because that is how you want the world to be.
On my past relationship choice, all I want to say on the issue is that I have learned my lesson.
RW 297
@Karmic
Out of curiosity, do you have children? Not an attacking question, just curious. I would be very, very surprised and impressed if you had children and still made the comment:
>> Having the ability to bear a child doesn’t give the woman the RIGHT to stay at home.
You are right, just having the ability to bear a child absolutely does not give a woman the right to stay home. But actually bearing one absolutely does. I’m from Canada…same continent but different world when it comes to time off after having a child. We get a year of maternity leave and every time I’ve spoken to American colleagues they lament the fact that they do not have this. I won’t repeat the comments on hormone levels and bonding that Sara already covered but I’d like to bring your attention to that again. Yes, women in the USA express milk and go back to work right away because they don’t have a choice. If and when I have children I would definitely want to stay home with the baby for at least 6 months. No reasonable man I know would object. For the remaining 6 months, I would be open to sharing with my husband. If he wanted to stay at home with the baby, I would go back to work. I’m told it’s a real wrench to leave your baby but I do agree that in this “equal” world of ours the father deserves a chance to spend time with his child too.
>> No one’s denying that is the preferred situation. But if the woman makes more money than the man, then it makes sense that she goes back to work. If she doesn’t want to do that, then she needs to make do on her husband’s salary.
Or she could have looked for a man with close to the same income as hers. We’re back to the beginning of the discussion, aren’t we?
Before I am misunderstood, I am not saying that your partner’s income should be the focus when deciding if he would make a good mate but to some it may be relevant in a small way especially when younger.
marymary 298
fiona
bristol is a toughie. I made the difficult decision not to move back there but to stay in London because that’s where the most interesting work is and the better salary. Lots of students stay in Bristol as it,s such a fun place but that drives up housing and drives down salaries. Could be that many successful men have reached the same conclusion that i did and that,s decreasing your chances.
maternity law in the uk means you can take a year off work though you get maternity pay for only six months I think. Many women take that option and then come back part-time. That’s a compromise that’s more workable in bristol than the City though I know many City women who are doing it. That way the man won’t have to earn what I keep saying is an unusually high salary (if you won,t take a hit on lifestyle) and I stick by that.
the part-time working women I refer to are attorneys. I’m afraid that being an attorney doesn’t necessarily net a man who can support you and children on his salary for any length of time while maintaining the same standard of living. The ones who CAN afford that you probably wouldn’t want to marry anyway, or they are already married, or they,re not looking for a successful wife but more of a helper. Yes there a few who have the salary, are single, and are marriageable, and live in Bristol but they are A FEW.
if you want that, and children, be focused. That means not burning up energy arguing with doctors about laundry guys. it would be trying to interest said doctor if he,s not an ass, which he may be, or finding out where he and his colleagues hang out after work.
Try an agency that organises singles events that are more exclusive than speed dating. I met someone nice at one of their balls. That’s when I realised I wasn’t over the ex and I wonder if that is an underlying issue.
Michelle 299
First off we ALL have a choice on whether to work or not…create a lifestyle that doesn’t have to be supported by 2 full time incomes. It’s not impossible, millions of people make that choice. When I had my second baby, I left my full time position and took a part time job at night. I took a hit on my career path, but those were the best years of my life, being home during the day with my 2 babies. That meant we lived in a modest home, didn’t take expensive vacations and drove used cars.
In the U.S., you can take leave for longer than short term disability insurance covers–there is also paternity leave. I believe it’s up to a year, but I could be wrong about the timeframe. This is unpaid time, but they have to protect your position. From an employer point of view (which very few people understand or appreciate), that’s an awfully long time to go with someone covering that position, in essence doing 2 jobs, or to leave the job vacant–goes to prove it’s not really needed.
Fiona 300
Marymary, you are right about Bristol. After a year here, I think I have exhausted pretty much all options. I am considering a move to London for career reasons anyway. I just don’t fancy going back to all those hours on the tube again…I had enough of that in my twenties which is why I decided to work abroad.
I did have the man that I really thought was the one for me break up with me just over two years ago and it really has taken that long to be over it or rather about 80% over it which is I suspect about as good as it is realistically going to get. We’ll see.
Locutus 301
Soul #295,
I could not have said it better myself. You can speak for me from now on. It amazes me how some people can be so one sided and not even recognize how bias they talk no matter how much you explain to them. I’ll tell what makes it even worse for themselves. It makes guys like me- who fully supports equal rights, equal pay, etc. for all genders, but when I hear such biased talk like you are referring to, it makes me want to take away my support and not give a damn anymore. I have a sister and of course a mother and THANK GOD they are not of the types you are referring to. They see things exactly as you do- right down the middle for both genders. It totally baffles me how some do not…even highly educated people. You are so right about that!! That is what I have been trying to tell Fiona- she doesn’t sound very educated at all when it comes to some things.
Fiona 302
Locutus frankly you just come across as a domineering person who can’t accept anyone else’s views on anything except your own without personally attacking them. Most men of quality don’t go trying to force their wives back to work to support them when their bodies haven’t even recovered from child birth and their breasts are still leaking milk all in the name of so called ‘equality’. People who care about their wives and their kids just don’t behave in that way in my experience. I have plenty of close friends and family who have children. Not one of the men has taken such a ridiculous stance on things.
marymary 303
fiona
if you live outside London and get the overhead train you can avoid the tube. My door to door journey is one hr and fifteen minutes. One hour on a good day. I,ve got used to it now. ironically, the further out you live the easier it can be to get in, within reason.
as for the ex I though i’d never get over him, it took me over three years. and now I really could not give a damn. He wasn’t even that special! nice packaging though.
it taught me to think more about what I want and now I have it. so all is not lost. Not at all.
I was throwing up reasons why I couldn’t meet someone. Some of them valid. But like Evan says there is a lid for every pot. I truly believe that when you are ready, you will find said lid. Though I’m gonna say it again, it may not be quite what you are expecting and you will be glad of it!
Fiona 304
Soul, it seems that you could do with taking your own advice. There must be a reason that you are so hostile to other women (assuming that you are woman which I am beginning to doubt). People who want to play the “equality” card seem to be incapable of understanding that equality means equal treatment in equal situations. Bearing children and breast feeding is not an equal situation because biologically only one person can actually do that.
Your statement that men:
“seem to just be good to “deserve” the burden of working hard, making money, and feeding women and their offspring should they want it….. IMHO, this is ridiculous !!! ”
as if men have nothing to do with the offspring and as if staying at home with kids is easy! Most men refer to children as their children and not just their wife’s and in my experience of life, want to work to support them. I don’t think most men see this as “ridiculous” so much as an important role in the family.
nathan 305
I don’t know many parents these days who have had the luxury – and it is a luxury in the US – to stay at home with their babies for 6 months, a year, etc. Even living a modest lifestyle, the fact of the matter is that taking care of children is an expensive affair. And the majority of workplaces aren’t terribly family friendly, despite the advances in leave policies over the past 20 years. My sister got about two months. Two of my friends recently got about 3 months, and both had partners with full time jobs. Almost no one in my regular circle is making over $50k a year, so if you are going to insist on staying home for a longer period of time, you’ll have to aim higher on the income scale with potential partners. Which does bring it back to things being about the money. I really wish it were different in the US, but those of you from here speaking about people having options – that’s only true for those with some means. For the rest of us, it’s cobble it together with day care, trading taking days off occasionally, and making due with not seeing your baby all the time.
justme 306
Locutus at 277 said:
“I don’t really care what level of education or intelligence you claim…it’s meaningless in a relationship compared to a persons character, how they treat others, and what type of person they are.”
Ironic.
Fiona 307
Thanks Mary, good to hear from someone who came through the other side. Aside from finding it hard to meet someone I feel any connection with I have even started to wonder whether I am actually capable of loving anyone again. I guess time will tell. I certainly couldn’t love anyone more than that.
Soul 308
I am a woman
Fiona 309
Nathan maybe that is all it is – Europe and Canadian attitudes v the US. I really do hope foryou guys that Obama can turn it around. Universal health care, minimum 6 months maternity leave and a minimum of 20 days paid vacation is the norm in Europe.
RW 310
I was curious about parental leave when we got on this topic. After some research it turns out that we’re allowed 15 weeks of maternity leave and 35 weeks of parental leave (total for both parents). The government pays for both at 55% of the employee’s annual salary but many employers provide “top-ups” so that your actual take home pay is closer to 75% or 80%. I have whined endlessly about the high taxes and public healthcare which I don’t really use (*knocks on wood*) but after reading Nathan’s post, I am thankful. I remember being on a project in Florida where a colleague had just given birth. When I returned in 8 weeks, she was already back at work. I was shocked. I hadn’t given it much thought till then, having taken the year off for granted. Three cheers for people raising children in the US or anywhere really. It’s not easy and it’s not cheap!!
Soul 311
And I am French….and I live in Canada….no, this is definitely not Europe and Canadian attitudes vs. the US…
Aisling 312
@ Fiona #309: Yep, good old American exceptionalism. We are the only industrialized nation in the world in which health care is profit-driven. But we are working on that. Single Payer will happen….one state at a time, as it did in Canada. Not having had kids, I didn’t have to deal with the whole maternity leave, work-or-stay-home issue…and I am grateful.
Soul 313
I am not sure what Europe counties we are talking about here……it is never a good idea to draw conclusions from our own experience… nuance is the key guys, nuance….
Quick search on the internet :
- French law allows for 16 weeks of maternity leave, 11 days of paternity leave.
- Italy: Maternity leave lasts for five months
-The Netherlands guarantees 16 weeks of maternity leave and two days of paternity leave
-Portugal guarantees new parents access to 20 weeks of paid leave, 11 weeks of unpaid leave
-New parents in Spain have 16 paid weeks of maternity leave, two paid weeks of paternity leave
Switzerland offers 14 weeks of job-protected maternity leave, paid at 80 percent of usual income.
PS: one should not confuse maternity leave with parental leave. In France for instance, you only have 16 weeks of maternity leave, and if you want to stay at home longer, you get a parental leave (= 180 euros/months, i.e. approximately only 200 dollars a month).
Nicole 314
Um, our system is not going the way of Europe or Canada, thank goodness. All we are doing if giving the uninsured the ability to buy affordable insurance that many in major corporations have.
That’s really the issues. I’m a white collar worker who has always been in Fortune 500 companies so I pay a tiny fraction of what my health care plan actually costs, b/c the company subsidizes it. I could pay the whole amount but that’s now what is done if you are lucky enough to be in a large company. If I left, I’d be able to pay for those benefits but I’d pay the full amount.
At any rate, people on both the left, right, and across the ocean are really in the dark about what the health care plan really is, and socialized medicine it is not.
Also, I wouldn’t be holding up Spain, Portugal, or Italy as models of anything we’d want to follow in the U.S. Those countries are against the wall b/c of their expensive universal benefits.
Fiona 315
Soul, you are right what we should be careful what we mean by maternity leave by which I mean total time off work whether paid or unpaid. The year that women get in the UK is not full pay at any point but at least they still have jobs to go back to. Scandinavia is even better. The thing that we and the Scandinavians have in common is that we have way more women in management roles than most other European countries. The best way to keep them is to give them time off although many still opt to stay at home in a child’s early years or to work part time as the hours in many such roles are not compatible with parenthood.
Switzerland is not in the EU and is in the dark ages when comes to womens’ rights. They only got the vote in 1971. Rights are a bit better in the more liberal cantons of Geneva and Vaud. Society strongly discourages women from returning to work when they have children and I know several women who had to return to work who are effectively shunned by other mothers. Things will change but it takes time.
The UK is streets ahead of most on this issue and even has paternity leave for men in addition to maternity leave for women. The days are less (because they aren’t recovering from giving birth and breastfeeding) but most men do stay at home for a week or two after a child is born to help out. Fathers have rights too and this reflects the value that society attaches to being a father.
Barry 316
I thought I should copy the post I made in one of the other threads as it is so pertinent to this one.
Mail online “lonely Britain”
The number of single men living alone between the ages of 45 and 64 has nearly doubled since 1995.
“ men who have not committed to long-term relationships or whose marriages have been ended by divorce are finding it harder to win partners once they reach middle age.
One reason could be that middle-aged women with good qualifications and jobs have little interest in forming relationships with lower-earning men.”
It doesn’t really matter what excuse you use to justify it, the desire by women to only mate with comparatively wealthy men IS screwing up relationships in general.
I know the heart wants what the heart wants, but men have little chance to become what women desire.
In this new world of equality, hypergamy is not going to work.
Jennifer 317
Fiona, I commend you for the way you’ve handled yourself here with the hurtful barbs, amateur psychoanalysis, and nasty comments that have been leveled at you.
Aisling 318
@Nicole: No, Obamacare is not socialized medicine. There is so much misinformation on this law it is sad. But, unlike most people, I have actually read the law. What isn’t being discussed is that there is a provision in the legislation that allows for individual states to adopt their own plans, as long as they meet specific criteria. That includes, Single Payer, which is NOT socialized medicine. It merely creates one payer. Instead of Blue Cross paying your doctor, and confiscating most of your premium in the process, the state or federal govt. pays them directly. That cuts Big In$urance out completely, and I for one will rejoice.
This allows individual states to make their own decisions on which way they want to go. The employer-based health insurance system is archaic and inefficient It stifles entrepreneurialism and chains people to jobs they hate. Only in America is it considered a badge of honor to pay 2K/month for crappy insurance that covers very little.
A number of states have robust Single Payer legislation in various stages in their state governments. Vermont has been working on a plan which will likely be signed by the governor there in 2013 or 2014. California and Minnesota have similar initiatives, as do Montana and Maryland. The way I see it, those that want to continue to be beholden to Cigna, Aetna, et al, can choose to live in the states that are determined to avoid progress.
Incidentally, I have spoken with many Canadians and British. Not a one of them would adopt our health care “system.” They mostly think we are nuts.
Oh, and ask the people of Greece how that old austerity is working out.
Aisling 319
@Barry,
True. I also think the insistence of many men to date way younger doesn’t help the equation, either.
Fiona 320
Aisling, I know that this is totally off topic and “nuts” may be a bit strong but I have to say I wouldn’t swap our National Health Service (which is taxpayer funded) for the world. Everyone in the UK has the right to subsidised healthcare and dental care regardless of age or employment status. It is certainly no frills but you are right – I can’t imagine too many people that would want to swap. Many companies provide private health insurance on top where you get seen by exactly the same doctors but in a non-emergency you can get seen quicker and you will get a nicer room. At least if you lose your job here you don’t lose your ability to receive healthcare. Brits are good at running down their own country but some things are actually pretty good.
I don’t think the issues in Spain, Portugal and Greece are being levelled at their healthcare systems so much as bad banking decisions and corrupt politicians.
Helen 321
I want to throw out the reminder that having a romantic relationship is not the be-all and end-all of existence. Everyone can decide just how far s/he is willing to compromise, and then at some point has every right to make the decision – free of judgment from others – that s/he’d rather be alone than compromise more. Thumbs up to Lady #293.
Being single is not the worst thing in the world. It’s far better than being in an unhappy relationship. Women today are in a much better position to be single than they were 50-100 years ago. Better educations, better job opportunities, more flexibility and finances to furnish a single lifestyle. Single women even live longer than married women in America!
As a married woman, I’ve been trying to figure out why single women live longer than married women, and have concluded that it’s not the husbands’ faults – at least, not most of the time.
Rather, it’s that too many of life’s major stressors hit us at the same time. My friends talk about being in the “sandwich generation”. We’re taking care of sick and senile parents at the same time we’re raising kids and monitoring all their activities, and at the same time many are in a position where they’re trying to rise in their careers. And then some face divorce and parents’ deaths. It’s too many things at once; we aren’t good at handling that much stress. There used to be social and familial networks that would help us deal with these stresses, but not so much in present-day America. In fact, I think it’s all the stresses at once that contribute to the high divorce rate in our generation.
The ideal, if it were possible, is to stagger the stressors out. You CAN have most things you want, but maybe it’s better not to have them all at once. Some will choose marriage and/or children first, and then work at their careers, some might focus on their careers first and then, at a point that they’re satisfied, look for a relationship. It should no longer be a stigma to be single. It should be considered a person’s choice that they decided not to focus on that type of relationship because they are focusing on other things (parents, job, etc). But we should stop having cookie-cutter expectations and keep urging settling. Maybe it’s not right for certain people at certain times.
Aisling 322
@ Fiona# 320: Thank you. I was hoping that you, as a Brit, would weigh in. Yes, maybe “nuts” is too strong of a word, but I know many people from other countries shake their collective head at our for profit health care system. I am certain the system in the UK is far from perfect, but, as you rightfully pointed out, you need not worry about losing your home and all other assets should you have the audacity to become gravely ill. Even an arch conservative like Margaret Thatcher declined to touch the NHS.
I think it is fine if people of means purchase additonal insurance to have concierge care or extras. That would be the role for private insurance. But personally, I think some health concerns are not as urgent as others. I think the knee replacement can wait awhile, whereas the cancer patient needing chemo or the man with three blocked coronary arteries cannot. Of course, in an ideal world, everyone would get everything they want/need immediately, at a reasonable price. Won’t happen, not in a world of finite resources. Not under socialized medicine, and not under Blue Cross.
Anyway, I am pretty passionate about health care reform. But I am sure Evan doesn’t appreciate his singles’ blog used as a political discussion board, so I will cease and desist.
Oh, and Fiona, by the way, I will add my voice to the relative minority here: You have shown admirable class and restraint in the face of some rather challenging circumstances in this and other threads.
Aisling 323
@Helen, #321: Well said!
Nicole 324
Okay, maybe we could get back on the topic here. B/c this is going into things that have nothing to do with the original question or poster, and I shouldn’t have let myself go off-topic either.
At any rate, my thoughts are that it’s not that women are “expected” to date less educated men. But as more of us are educated, finding someone who compatible with you and who has the same financial and academic background becomes hard (infinitely hard if you are from certain ethnic groups). But it is interesting how it’s seen as such a taboo idea (and I admit, I’ve never responded to anyone who didn’t claim to have a college degree, and a LOT of men lie about this question b/c so many educated women DO filter against it).
College doesn’t equal smarter, but I think what a lot of us are hoping for is some measure of intellectual curiosity and hopefully some topics that a person is passionate about (and I prefer it if they are different from mine b/c certain topics that I’m not familiar with are fascinating to hear about).
Evan Marc Katz 325
@Helen: Single women live longer than married women? Not necessarily:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44122528/ns/health-behavior/t/single-people-may-die-younger-new-study-finds/#.UKl9xYVVTk0
http://www.abc.net.au/health/talkinghealth/factbuster/stories/2008/09/03/2354566.htm#.UKl-K4VVTk0
Helen 326
Evan, yes, single and divorced women live longer than married women. Those studies you reference focus on both sexes. There are a multitude of peer-reviewed studies showing that single and divorced women live longer than married women, in a variety of nations including Great Britain, Germany, Sweden, and Australia. You can find links to the studies from these news releases:
http://www.healthkicker.com/715558788/single-vs-married-who-lives-longer-healthier-lives/
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/01/09/1105205981068.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/the-stress-of-marriage-shortens-your-life-by-a-year-if-youre-the-wife-467782.html
On the other hand, several of these studies point out that married men live longer than single men.
The authors of the studies speculate on various reasons why this difference in life expectancies for men and women exist. One is that married men have women to take care of their health. Another is that married women have a tendency to adopt the risky behaviors of their husbands. Yet another is that married women are overstressed by the multiple burdens they shoulder as a wife and mother (this last one agrees with my own hypothesis earlier).
These findings are, in my opinion, incongruent with the societal pressures toward women that they have to get married or be stigmatized, whereas men have less of such a stigma if they are single (think of how “confirmed old bachelors” vs. “spinsters” are terms that have such different connotations). Moreover, I think women need to be careful not to lose themselves when they become married; not to assume that they now only live their lives for others and stop looking after themselves, or stop admitting when they’re exhausted. Otherwise, we’re losing years off our lives, wives! Finally, the stigma associated with single women should just disappear.
Soul 327
I might live longer if I am single, but I would be much less happy !!!!!!!!! So life will seem even looooonger….. thanx, but no thanx!!! ahahahahahaah
Highlander 328
Humans are tribal and really do not do well for extended periods on their own, historically they couldn’t survive on their own long enough to procreate. In my own life, those that I’ve known that chose to live on their own were for the most part damaged individuals. There is a reason for the old wives tales of Crazy cat ladies and Mad hermits lasting as they have, there is a great deal of truth to them.
Evan Marc Katz 329
Helen,
Your first two “studies” didn’t prove your point. Didn’t say anything about life expectancy. Your third link did. I’m no scientist, but why would your lone 2006 study be any more valid than the study that I cited which was a comprehensive sum of 90 studies that showed single women had a 23% higher mortality risk?
I’m not saying I’m right. I am saying that you’re prone to believe what you want to believe and dismiss what you’re not. It’s called the confirmation bias.
Finally, men are the ones who tend to “lose themselves” more in a marriage (if you’ve ever met a widower who is lost without his wife).
No one is stigmatizing you for being single. But you’re here because you want to find a happy relationship. So keep listening.
Highlander 330
Evan, you are quite right, even in a divorce situation where there has been infidelity, men have a three times higher rate of suicide than women. The sad fact is there are tons of men who are loyal and monogamous, but get dumped for those same traits, because they’ve become predictable and boring…..
Barry 331
Who lives longest – bit of a red herring.
Too many variables.
And if this thread topic is anything to go by, it is quite likely that the men who fail to get into a relationship are going to be poorer, and the women who fail, wealthier. Health could have nothing to do with marriage itself.
I am struck with the number of women here expressing the opinion that any degree of settling just isn’t worth it. They know what they want, and are not prepared to accept second best.
There is a begrudging acknowledgment that this will probably mean staying single forever, but with a feeling of resentment that this should not be. The world should be a place where a woman gets everything she “deserves”.
I was fascinated by the Owning your shit blog – this by a female blogger :
“ The word “commitment” has in fact, in female parlance, come to mean, “up until the moment I’m no longer 100% satisfied with the person I married”. And that attitude is only going to lead to more and more divorces as more and more successful women effectively set their sights higher than they reasonably should while their youth and attractiveness wanes, leading to a growing number of them feeling like they settled even if they didn’t–even if they scored someone 2 points above them on the overall attractiveness scale.”
Bottom line – men don’t want women who have settled for them, especially those that were not that attractive to start with.
Helen 332
Evan, does anyone think I want to believe the results of the studies cited in the links I posted? No! I’m happily married. I’d prefer that these studies didn’t exist. But my personal preferences don’t trump science, and the science may have something to say about the ambiguity of the goodness of marriage for women.
Let’s requalify to include both life expectancy and health quality. Health quality generally is a major contributor to longevity, but not in every individual case. The first, linking to a 2009 study following Brits for decades, shows single women having lower levels of “long term sick” and “economically inactive” descriptors (the latter not so hard to believe, the first surprising). The also-linked Australian study shows that single women have better-quality health care, volunteer more, and belong to more social groups. The Swedish study showed that women cleaning up after a larger household (usually because they were married, but in some cases not) had worse health.
The second link, to an Australian study, does indeed show that single, divorced, and widowed women in elder age had significantly better health than their married counterparts.
The third link is a cross-European study showing that married women live, on average, 1.4 years less than single women. Married men live 1.7 years longer than single men.
Does this mean that I’d urge women to stay single? No. But it would do us well to understand why there is such a health disparity at a population level, and to try to address what it is about marriage that benefits men but is a decrement to women’s health, so that health outcomes are more equitable. Meanwhile, it should be a comfort and relief to single women that their health outcomes on average will not be worse, and will likely be better, than their married sisters.
Michelle 333
#305, Nathan, I assume then you have been married/in a relationship and have children.
We all make choices. If our choice is not to take time off from work because of careers, or we say we can’t make ends meet unless we work full time and pay for daycare (for me, the cost of 2 children in daycare was more than my mortgage at that time!), taking a big vacation each year is a priority, driving brand new cars, buying a big house, whatever it is, it’s still a choice. There are millions of people out there who make hard choices and sacrifices to not work full time and stay with their children. Unless someone is in the actual situation, no one else will ever know all the details of why couples make the decisions they do.
Fusee 334
@Aisling #318 and Fiona #320: I agree with your comments regarding the health care system in western Europe versus in the US.
I’m originally from Belgium and enjoyed very good health care until I immigrated to the States. My employer pays a ridiculous amount of money for an insurance that does not even provide good care. The dental care of pretty good but I’ve been horrified at the lack of competency of various physicians and by how injuries are being treated here. Thankfully I do not need to use the US health care system much as I’m young and healthy, but at the first sign of a serious illness I’ll be out of here. The quality is just not the same, and for 10 times the cost of what it should be, it’s outrageous. I’m also in favor a tax-funded health care system, but for it to be sustainable in the long run it would need a much more responsible management.
@Helen #321: I agree with your comment on how having a romantic relationship is not the be-all and end-all of existence.
We can be happy single and we can be happy coupled. It’s a different kind of happiness. Both have downsides – different kinds of downsides as well. Not sure about the health argument since it will greatly depend on the quality of the marriage created by the people in the studies. When there are equal numbers of studies making opposite conclusions, it’s because other variables not taken into account affect the data. Just for the record, I’m a scientist : )
My relationship brings a kind of happiness that I certainly did not feel when I was single, but it does also bring stress that I did not feel when I was single and that I could do without. Globally I’m happier, but only slightly after everything is considered. Maybe it’s because I’m still in the “building the foundations stage”, or maybe it’s because I had created a high-quality single life that I would not mind returning to at all if my relationship does not progress to the level of safety and stability I need.
Since most women will end up single anyway, it’s a good investment to work at becoming a happy and healthy single lady, and only consider entering a relationship that would not threaten that level of health and happiness. Choosing a partner that is equally happy and healthy, who treats us well, who can deal with life’s ups and downs are better qualities to look for than chasing specific features that are irrelevant to a long-lasting happy and healthy marriage that will see us blossom and live a long and healthful life where we can support our spouse’s own health and happiness in a sustainable way.
Nancy 335
So, this is the exact point in which I give up on your so-called wisdom on lovee. You should really grab a feminist book or two, and try to look at the female perspective before you give women advice on dating.
I am a young woman still in university. I come from Latin America, where women are pushed to always be better looking than their spouses and their degrees are treated as objects of decoration. Women are supposed to relinquish their careers and take care of the kids. Meanwhile, no one tells the men to give overweight, unattractive, uneducated, or even colored women a chance. The reality in today’s society is that women are judged by their looks and men by their achievements. This idea that men are somehow more willing to date outside their pool is blinded and biased. I hate gendered generalizations, but if you’re going to play that game then I would say that while you might argue that a man will date outside his income/educational level, he will almost always chose a woman who is better looking than he is. What this woman is complaining about is a double standard in society which says that women who are educated are supposed to satisfy themselves with what little they can get and men who are educated can get whatever they so desire.
I am getting my degree so that I can be independent and produce positive change in society through my efforts. I am also an activist, so I am fully aware of my privilege and my responsibility towards society. Asking for someone that is equal to me is simply being fair to myself. Your comment that women want someone smarter, richer, funnier, more successful, men is simply untrue when it comes to me and my friends. I am a feminist, so I want someone who is equal to me- not someone who is exactly the same, but someone whose flaws and qualities compliment mine. That is what most people look for, not just women.
My problem is not with the general idea that we all should not limit ourselves by who we date- regardless of the political and economic differences. My problem is that your articles are extremely gendered and constantly put both women and men into a box. You say things like “What women need to do” and “What women need to understand” and that is an extremely damaging outlook. Your reader was pointing to a distortion in how society perceives her as a woman, and you respond with an insensitive and inaccurate perspective on what women need to do. This parallels your article about rape, as if all of the “women problems” can be fixed by women.
henriette 336
But, Nancy 335, Evan’s blog is directed to women so he tells them what they as women, can do to have better chances of finding lasting love. If his blog centred on advising men, he’d be telling guys what to do. He isn’t saying that we are the only ones who need to change but we are the audience for his particular business. There are other businesses that advise men how to date; I’m sure you’ll find plenty of advice directed to men — and only men — on those.
Barry 337
Nancy
“The reality in today’s society is that women are judged by their looks and men by their achievements”
This has been the case for several hundred thousand years.
“that women want someone smarter, richer, funnier, more successful, men is simply untrue when it comes to me and my friends”
Good for you, however several billion women will I am sure be disagreeing with you.
There is no double standard because men and women desire different things – its biology.
“ men who are educated can get whatever they so desire.”
- only because women deem them high value. It is women that give them that power.
Women who are attractive also can have what they desire. It is men that give them that power.
Everyone else is forced to compromise.
Jayne 338
I haven’t read this column for awhile but I keep getting emails so I thought I would check it out. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Men are men; they do what they want. Women have to put up with it if they don’t want to be alone. Ho hum.
Karl R 339
Jayne said: (#338)
“Men are men; they do what they want. Women have to put up with it if they don’t want to be alone.”
Similarly, women are women; they do what they want. Men have to put up with it if they don’t want to be alone.
Were you expecting women to have it easier than men for some reason?
Mary 340
It’s true that snobbery and elitism won’t help anyone, and many kind and generous people come from all backgrounds. However in my experience, many men who have nothing in common with my educational background or professional status also have little in common with me when we talk. I love political science, literature, art, history, character-led drama. As a generality - and I know there are exceptions – people who have chosen not to pursue more academic or professional careers are not particularly interested in that kind of stuff, because if they were they would have studied more. I’m not making a judgement. I’m saying that someone who has been drawn to working with their hands all their life probably wasn’t that thrilled at the thought of academic discussions nor do they want to dissect the direction of the film we’ve just seen. Yes, I’m smart and successful - but I’m also a nice and kind person. I’m supportive and try to make people feel good about themselves. I’m sure lots of men are too. That doesn’t mean that when it comes down to finding something to talk about we have any passions or interests in common. It’s not about who is better or being elitist – it’s about having common ground. And actually I do think that some men don’t like not being the smartest person in the room even when there’s only two of you. You don’t have to be ruthless or intellectually harsh for someone to feel inadequate when you have degrees from top universities and they didn’t qualify high school – it happens all by itself. I have been told by many men (friends not dates) that men think they’ll want someone who’s really smart but then find that actually they prefer a relationship where they feel superior in some way. I can be as kind as you like – I can’t make someone my superior or even my equal in every respect. That depends entirely on his qualities.
Tracy 341
A friend once told me if you have a list, you will always just have a list and not a man. I think that’s good advice. Having standards is different than having a list, though. Don’t date people who are mean, abusive, lazy, drunks, liars etc. That goes for both genders. But your standards can’t be superficial things like education and income and eating with one’s mouth open. You have to judge each case on its merit.
Di 342
Unfortunately, I think we are doing a great disservice to Fiona. The problem with A LOT of “uneducated” folks (and I work in employment services, so my opinion is based on a pretty diverse observation), is that a lot of these people remain at their education level due to complacency. They also don’t make an effort to write well or to improve their speech–things you DO NOT need schooling for. Language is a very big selling point for me. Also, I like intelligent men, but I also recognize that a lot of very well-educated men are socially inept. Intelligence and knowledge are not the same thing. So, a construction guy with a high school diploma who starts his own business or something like that is going to be very valuable to me if he presents himself intelligently.
One word: classy.
Randolph 343
Hmm It has been great to read more about how woman see all of this.
A bit of my perspective being a 29yr old white male. Most of my life it has seemed that most girls I have met go for 2 numbers above their rating. So I would consider myself an 8 and most the time girls who show obvious interest in me seem to be around a 5. (This is a generalization I know that there are woman who view themselves realistically).
I also see that a girl will also add a point or two to a male if he is a man of means. So for me I dont have cash flow not because Im particularly stupid just because I have never taken a specific interest in the those things that are of more value to a commericalized society.
The things I enjoy such as outdoor adventure, painting realsim, or studying spiritual evolution have not given me the financial return that at one time I hoped they would. Namely, Im more introspective, loving, and contemplative at an expense of outward ambivalence.
Though to accept responsability for this I have practically decided to put everything on hold until I make more money. Here I notice a gamble. That being do I “waste time” hoping some girl at least at my level will notice me as I am or do take the time to focus and extrapolate my rating financially so that can be with a girl who I can love and be respected by at the risk of it taking to long.
Take it as you will I’d say the Doctor wasn’t totally off base. Maybe his delivery was, not every doctor has a good bed side manner. Maybe a key criteria can be that if you are financially succesful is it neccesarly to be with a man who has as much if not more cash then you do or someone who has more intangible qualities or interest. I think there is something to be said about living vicariously through others.
Its a different world woman are more succesful in the modern market and in higher education. Men in general are no longer as valuable as we were 50 yrs ago. Nor as ambitous in a world where the rules and rewards have changed. Choose wisely…
MilkyMae 344
I think one of the issues is that many single educated women are in fields that have a high percentage of women. Professions such as education, social services, and healthcare. If you are working with other educated women all day long, (1) you have less opportunities to meet men and (2) you can loose your ability to connect with men. I know women in these fields that are so far removed from single men that they just don’t know what to do.
Aisling 345
@ Randolph # 343: I am starting to see the whole male/female dynamic as an extension of the union worker vs non union worker debate in the US. Instead of there being a race to the bottom, why don’t we all strive to be our best authentic selves? I am white, but it is disheartening to me to see black women being given the dubious advice to consider men who have been in prison, are un- or underemployed, or on parole. Terrible advice. Black, white, or purple, I would rather stay single until my last breath than consign myself to such a fate.
@ MilkyyMae, # 334: That resonates with me. I don’t meet any eligible men on a day-to-day basis. I have lost many of my flirting skills. I have become almost too relaxed, and I miss the shyness and tension I used to feel when around an attractive man. It has been soooo long since I had the butterflies or even a quickening of the pulse.
Karl R 346
Aisling said: (#345)
“it is disheartening to me to see black women being given the dubious advice to consider men who have been in prison, are un- or underemployed, or on parole.”
Who is giving that advice? Nobody has given that advice in this thread (yet).
However, about 7 years ago I got back onto the dating market (after a long hiatus of not dating). You would probably say that I was underemployed at the time. I was working 2 temp jobs (about 30 hrs/wk between the two temp jobs). My income was enough to support my modest lifestyle, but it wasn’t going to impress anyone.
One of those two part-time temp assignments turned into a contract job, then a full-time job, then raises, bonuses and a promotion. I’m earning triple or quadruple what I was 7 years ago.
7 years later, I’m married and earn an upper-middle class income (just counting my income, not my wife’s). Would it have been “dubious advice” for someone to suggest that I would be a decent person to date 7 years ago?
As Evan originally suggested, perhaps rigidly adhering to a checklist is worse than having some flexibility in whom you consider.
Aisling 347
@Karl Your points are well-taken. And no, the advice about dating parolees was not given here, but I have seen this direction given *very* seriously to black women in various venues. Sad.
After reading many of your posts here over the past couple of years, I would venture to say that no one meeting you would ever have considered you a loser, for want of a better word, regardless of your salary.
As Evan often notes, there are *degrees* of everything, from looks to success, among many other things. I believe I am referring to the many men I have met who have reached their 50s or even 60s without having a clue, much less any sort of career path. You know, the kind that are still asking mom and dad for rent and gas money.
I am very fortunate in that I am in health care, and I think that demand in my profession will only increase– unless they find a way to outsource that, too. I don’t expect a potential partner to make what I do, but I do expect him to be financially responsible and making an effort. I have met many who bemoan their “lack of luck”, as well as a number on disability who really could do some sort of work. But I don’t think that that would describe anyone posting here.
I also think there is a decided disadvantage to extrapolating opinions voiced here to our own personal situations, with all due respect. I have my own Achilles’ heel with regard to some of the sentiments expressed by some here about women over 40. I always remind myself that these men do not know me from Adam.
Congratulations on all of your successes. You are obviously someone who persevered.
Joe 348
I think the “parolee” point is that if black women want to marry a black man, they may need to cave on the “no jail” criteria because so many black men are/were in jail, as a percentage of the population. The Bureau of Prisons lists its racial composition as 37% black, whereas the population at large is only 13%.
James 349
We are in a very interesting times. Things are changing in the world and everyone is having a hard time catching up. In 2010 about 60% of college degrees went to women. But almost 65% of advanced degrees went to women. In this last recession most of the jobs lost were manufacturing and other jobs that are male dominated. So it left more men out of work then women. Thirty-seven percent of employed women have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared to 35 percent of men, according to 2010 census figures. Women are just outpacing men generally in higher education today. We are in a situation where overall women are outpacing men in terms of education and income. So of course if a woman isn’t willing to date men with less education or income then she probably wont get too far. Common sense would tell you that. At some point I hope that women who are addicted to the idea of always (dating or marrying up) will learn something that men have known all along. That there are other things in life that are way more important in a relationship then how much money a person makes or their education level.
Balisier 350
I have always been willing – indeed I much prefer to marry someone much less educated and in a lower socio-economic bracket. Part of this has to do with the fact that I will probably marry someone my own race and I’m a black woman. Since undergrad I have sensed that men of my race who attain higher education will marry or cheat with a woman from any other race – because they are attractive to these other women and there is the opportunity. My problem is that men will look at me etc (I’m somewhat well-figured and pretty) but they never approach me. Let me repeat – I am willing to marry anyone from the laundry worker, security guard etc but they are not interested in pursuing me. Being a bit old fashioned I would never consider doing the pursuing myself. I am an engineer and university lecturer at present so I am not the highest earner but I do okay for myself. Evan maybe you need to write a guide for black women.
Karl R 351
Balisier said: (#350)
“My problem is that men will look at me etc (I’m somewhat well-figured and pretty) but they never approach me.”
The men may have the impression that you’re not interested in them.
Men don’t read minds. We don’t know whether you’re interested in us. We read facial expressions and body language. Most people aren’t entirely aware how they come across to others, so you may appear unapproachable … even if that’s not the impression you’re attempting to create.
If a woman’s body language indicates that she’s not interested in me, I won’t bother approaching her. To me, I was being polite by respecting her wishes. A few of these women probably were interested (despite their body language). They’re the women who assume that men are “intimidated” by them.
Balisier said: (#350)
“Being a bit old fashioned I would never consider doing the pursuing myself.”
That’s fine, but flirt enough to encourage men to pursue you.
Balisier 352
Karl R said: (#351)
“They’re the women who assume that men are “intimidated” by them.”
We are talking about black men here. No black man is intimidated by any black woman – I repeat no black woman can intimidate a black man. (Except maybe his mother).
marymary 353
Balisier
I get way more attention now that I’m older than when I was in my twenties. It’s not because I’m more beautiful (according to many comments, now that I’m over 40 I might as well be dead), it’s because I’m more relaxed, I smile more and am more friendly. I got NO ATTENTION in my late thirties to early forties having come out of an abusive relationship. I was not giving off the come-hither vibes.
My boyfriend, for months, thought I didn’t like him. He said I ignored him several times when he tried to say hello and he was too scared to sit next to me. And I thought I was making an effort!
I would say whatever you think you’re doing to attract men, ramp it up. If you’re not getting approached, you’ve nothing to lose. Unless you particularly want one of those men who like hot pursuit. Trouble is, they tend to like the chase more than they like you, and surely it’s exhausting trying to think of new and novel ways to trigger off a chase response (aka “keeping the spark alive”, “maintaining the mystery”). There is no spark and mystery when I’ve been to the dentist and got PMT. But my boyfriend was still very sweet to me. I don’t recognise him in the observations you make about black men. Are you religious at all? church may be a good place to meet black men, especially pentecostal/charismatic. I’ve had a few black man chat to me in church. (Not just black men, but I see that’s what you are looking for). Mind you, we aren’t having sex before marriage so that might not suit you. It’s hard sometimes (haha).
Balisier 354
Mary Mary #353
Nice response. Actually I am Christian, very much involved in church and also celibate. Guys in church – they just watch. They may express annoyance if they see some visitor paying me attention – but for them – I can’t say that any seem to be interested in taking it any further than just being a brother in Christ.
marymary 355
Balisier
tell me about it! It,s a common lament among many of my female friends at church. I,m not the only woman who,s had to take more of a lead than she would prefer.
to be fair my boyfriend did eventually say he liked me but I still had to suggest we go out. we had a long convo about it recently, he really is quite naive about dating. The men at church are looking into what it is to be a man. Well, they could start by asking women out! That said, my bf is chivalrous, protective, loyal. Being a man is more than pursuing women.
when I read the comments here, dating seems hard for lots of people in different situations. It doesn’t work out until …. it works out. And then, I think, we may be glad it took as long as it did cos we can,t imagine that anyone else would be better.
BMarvelous 356
Ok I’m a guy and I would like to say that I would rather have the same education level or higher than the woman I date. I for some reason can’t have her way more educated than me because it makes me feel less of a man. I wouldn’t mind if she makes more but it cannot be too significant because then I would feel she wears the pants in the relationship if you get what I mean.
Helen 357
The points made in #356 prove the points I was making in #95.
If I were advising girls and women dear to me, between aiming for as much education as possible and a good salary, vs. pleasing the sort of man who doesn’t want a woman to have more education and more salary than him… I’d tell these ladies to choose their education and salary over such a man.
Kristina 358
What I ask the universe for in a relationship, and anything else, is the “essence” of what I want. I don’t outline the package it will come from just the feelings I want to feel.
What I want to feel in a relationship is joy, a sense of peace, looking forward to building my life with that person, fun, etc.
I am totally open to “how” that will come. The package it will come in, after all, what does it matter if I feel everything I want to feel?
If you are open to the package or the “how” it will be a lot easier for the universe to deliver. Just my two cents.
Renee 359
Soulmate refers to the person not the job. Degrees don’t make anyone better than anyone else, they just make that person educated for their desired type of work.
Peter 360
A note on the immigration debate from way back.
Two close family members are married to people from completely different cultures, races and religions. Both partners in both couples have put in serious work to maintain their marriages. Nobody had “It’ll be a happy marriage because I deserve it.” attitude. There were parental reservations on all sides. In the event, decades later, they have strong marriages despite fluctuating fortunes. The one couple did consider Canada, which is as close as things get to a rainbow culture in the Anglo-Saxon world (New Zealand has slipped steadily for 70 years) but left the UK for Australia, which is perhaps as far away as it gets from a rainbow culture.
I am making glacial progress on my own transnational marriage, albeit less extreme than the two discussed above. There is no “because I deserve it” about either of us. Which of us becomes the immigrant has yet to be decided. I speak Russian, badly. She speaks no English and my business is in Russia. Marriages based on perfect fits with the check list, such as perceptions of higher male worth on dimensions like cleverness, where no thought need be required can often be “I deserve it” marriages.
And a note on topic
I am as snobbishly educated as the UK gets with a master’s in business. No woman seriously outranks me. There is an upper limit to educational snobbery as a social advantage. Most PhD’s and M.Sc’s just mark you out as a Boff, which I was amazed to hear revived in the late 1990′s amongst teenagers. Boffin was 30′s and 40′s British slang for mad scientist/over focused engineer with no social skills. ”Artillery” was the equivalent Public Schoolboy put down – the army sent clever people lacking common sense to the artillery to calculate bombardments. Usually the British variant is overwhelmed by the American e.g. nerd, geek whatever the difference between the two may be). The variation for clever women was Blue Stocking. These tended to be academics and teachers. Margaret Thatcher, an industrial research chemist and the first scientist to be the British Prime Minister (which she thought was an equal breakthrough), was a Boffin who definitely married a man less clever than she but was still marrying up.
Balisier 361
To get a good idea of how people think, just look at the US President. When he won the elections first, there were so many people saying he should ‘upgrade’ in the wife department. It was hardly likely they meant he should find someone smarter, fitter, taller/more statuesque, better mother to his children or better support for his Presidency. They were clear on the fact that they weren’t thinking any of those things. They just meant he should have a non-black woman at his side. To them, none of the qualities mentioned are as important as that for a successful man.
Aisling 362
@Ballsier, #361. That is a very sad commentary on our society/values, and unfortunately very true. I think Michelle Obama is an amazing woman, worth a hundred Halle Berrys or other like trophies. She has shown incredible grace and class in the face of vitriol that no other First Family has had to suffer. That Obama had the good sense and taste to choose her speaks well of him, regardless of whether one agrees with his ideology.
JoeK 363
@Balisier #352
First, let’s get all of Karl’s quote from #351:
“[A woman] may appear unapproachable … even if that’s not the impression [she's] attempting to create. A few of these women probably were interested (despite their body language). They’re the women who assume that men are “intimidated” by them.”
Balisier #352:
“We are talking about black men here. No black man is intimidated by any black woman – I repeat no black woman can intimidate a black man. (Except maybe his mother).”
That’s a rather broad statement – let’s adjust it to “few black men can be intimidated…” If it’s an accurate statement, then it supports what Karl is saying – that men aren’t actually intimidated, but women believe their behaviour is from intimidation, rather than simply men perceiving women as not being interested.
The only part a woman can control is the message/impression she gives – just do your best to send the appropriate message.
You’re in a more challenging position than many other women, given the statistics (Karl can probably find them!) – but as a well-educated black woman you’re in an even smaller minority (especially since it sounds like you’d prefer to date black men?). Fortunately you sound accepting of “marrying down” from an economic/education perspective.
Johnson 364
Sorry, ladies, it’s only going to get worse. Over time, many, many college educated women will have no meaningful shot at marrying college educated men. This is due to the increasing disproportionate ratio of women on our college campuses.
I have a friend, a professional who will soon be getting married to a bank teller. She makes at least four times his income (no, that is not a typo), both working full time. While I don’t consider myself a snob, I have a hard time seeing how the man would function in that environment, as a man. I know it would bother me somewhat.
But, thanks to unbridled feminism that promotes the interests of women at the expense of the men’s. When the college educated women finish earning all their degrees, they will have no choice but to settle for high school dropouts, and other barely educated men. Isn’t life grand?
Johnson 365
Balisier #350
I am a young, black man, a professional and single. I have tried dating many black women, but the experiences were uniformly bad. No, I’m not making this up. The arguments, the power struggles, etc, etc were simply to much. The more educated the woman was, the worse it got.
While I am not trying to suggest that women of other races are saints, I have had some of my best dating experiences with these women. They are generally very open, and would rather cooperate than insist on their own way. And the respect has been great as well. I admit I love my own race (many of he black women I dated were physically attractive), but I might end up marrying outside the race. I think black women need to look in the mirror, and make some changes in how they define weakness and strength. Maybe things will change. At this time, many of them think that being agreeable and feminine is weakness, while being stubborn and difficult is strength.
JustMe 366
Many people see being agreeable and feminine as a weakness. Makes me sad
Sparkling Emerald 367
Sometimes I am glad to be a smart, strong, underachiever. I didn’t go to college and I am a fairly low wage earner, so just about any man I date would earn more and be more educated than I am. (Not that I give a rat’s patooty about a man’s income or education level, I am looking for kindness & integrity) Also, men don’t seem to care about a women’s career or education, so I don’t lose any points with men over my lack of a formal education or my relatively low income. Despite my lack of formal education & fairly low wages, I left home at 18, and was completely self supporting until I met my first hubby at age 24, then once again completely self supporting between my 1st & 2nd marriage.