Why Are Women More Negative About Dating Than Men?

Evan Marc Katz

If you read the comments on this blog regularly, you can probably draw some false conclusions about dating.

Men are pigs. Men are liars. Men are flakes. Men are commitmentphobes. Men are selfish. Men are abusive. Men only want sex. Men are irresponsible.

As a man who’s none of these things – and don’t associate with other such men -  I take great umbrage at these consistent accusations about what’s wrong with guys. It’s not that there are no men that are like this, but rather that there are so many men who aren’t like this as to render this “discussion” about what’s wrong with guys moot.

My friend, Moxie, a prominent dating blogger and fellow truth-teller, agrees with me. As a 40-year-old woman, she’s been through her share of heartbreak, but when she steps back and takes an objective look at the dating behaviors of women, 35-45, she sees something else entirely. Men are pretty even-keeled about the ups and downs of dating. Women, on the other hand, are extremely negative.

Says Moxie, “They don’t write articles about the dearth of “good” women. They don’t blog about their love/sex lives. They don’t bemoan their bad dates on Twitter or Facebook. They have nothing to prove. They don’t defend their choice to stay single. They don’t have disclaimers or requirements beyond “Please enjoy giving head, be able to pay your bills, take good care of yourself and don’t be a pain in the ass.”

Yep, that sounds about right.

I’ve often heard the phrase, “there are no good men out there”. I’ve never heard the phrase,”there are no good women out there”.

So what is it that makes women more negative about the dating process than men?

If I were to tender a guess, it’s for a few reasons:

1. The biological imperative of childbearing. That ticking clock gets louder and creates an undue sense of pressure to not “waste time” on the wrong men.

2. Oxytocin. It’s biologically more difficult for women to have unattached sex without emotion and bonding. Thus, women get hurt by passionate flings more than men.

3. Societal expectations. I think there’s a ton of reinforcement from women and women’s magazines that one should be married with children. Men aren’t as consumed by relationships, in general.

4. Communication styles. Men aren’t encouraged to talk about their feelings, so even if they are lonely and pining for a relationship, you won’t hear them complain or rail on the opposite sex as much. There are certainly a lot fewer male dating bloggers, relationship columnists, and dating coaches (apart from the pick-up artist crowd).

5. Expectations. I think this is the big one. Men understand that rejection is part of the process. We ask for numbers, get turned down. Write to women online, get turned down. Lean in for the first kiss, get turned down. At a certain point, we realize that this is just how the world works. You win some, you lose some. I don’t think most women are as inured to failure as men – which makes the failures all the more intolerable, leads to prolonged dating hiatuses, and proclamations that there are “no good men out there”.

And if you’ve been reading this and bristling at Moxie’s observation that perhaps women are more negative about dating than men, consider this:

I’ve often heard the phrase, “there are no good men out there”. I’ve never heard the phrase,”there are no good women out there”.

I don’t think it’s because women are better than men. I think it’s because women are more vocal about male shortcomings.

Click here to read the original article. Please share your thoughts below.

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256 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Letting Go, Understanding Men

256 Responses to “Why Are Women More Negative About Dating Than Men?”

1. Tina 1

   There are alot of negative men out there.  Just look at Tom Leykis and his fan base. There are blogs that are anti single mom and they can be brutal.  There are forums where the guys post women’s match profiles and enjoy tearing apart these women.  

   I find this behavior disturbing and for that reason alone I will not use dating websites.  I don’t want my profile posted somewhere and I’m not interested in being pursued for sex because that is the only thing single moms are good for.

   On the flip side – I would agree women are in general more negative about dating and negative about men. I used to beextremely anti-male because that was the way I was raised.  To this day my mother insists men are dumb and useless.  I have counter argued with her in many occasion and she will not open her eyes to the possibilty that their are a lot of great men in the world.

2. Christina 2

   Actually, I HAVE heard more than one man claim that there are no good women out there, but I think those guys are probably (hopefully) in the minority. 

   It does make sense that there is more desperation/time pressure on the parts of women who feel they MUST do the marriage/children thing by a certain age. Too bad that the intense negativity is exactly the opposite of what they need to do in order to attract the right man.

   In my experience, a lot of the really negative women are those who constantly have bad experiences, but never look to themselves to change anything about the men they feel attracted to, or the way they’re handling dating and relationships. 

   Sure, there are some real jerks out there, but the majority of men I’ve met my whole life have been pretty decent, and a lot of them are great. If you’re only dating the low-quality guys, you’re doing something wrong. 

3. Helen 3

   Evan, your own male commenters on this blog disprove the point of this entry.

   I am not going to embarrass any male individual commenters by listing their screen names, but:

   1. You write: ‘I’ve often heard the phrase, “there are no good men out there”. I’ve never heard the phrase,”there are no good women out there”.’ Not so long ago, a number of guys were posting to several of your entries about how spoiled and entitled all women are. Several who didn’t say “all women” in general would instead target ”Western women” or “American women,” and then recommend getting women from Russia or the third world. Surely you remember these. They’ve cropped up numerous times here, most recently just a few weeks ago. 

   2. Your friend Moxie writes: “They don’t bemoan their bad dates on Twitter or Facebook. They have nothing to prove. They don’t defend their choice to stay single.” I can’t speak for what these guys write on Twitter or Facebook, but on your page, these men HAVE dished about bad dates. But I don’t see why that is such a bad thing in the first place. Moreover, at least one guy has defended his choice to stay single. I’ve had some debates with that very guy on your blog, but on this topic, I respect his choice as I would the choice of anyone to stay single, male or female.

   3. Your friend Moxie writes that men only want: ““Please enjoy giving head, be able to pay your bills, take good care of yourself and don’t be a pain in the ass.”‘ Believe it or not, I think some MEN here would object to Moxie’s characterization of all that men want from women – many of our decent and sympathetic male commenters.

   I’m sorry – I’m sure you meant well, but I don’t think this particular entry is well-justified. Let’s not even get into the “biological imperative of childbearing”…
    

4. Samatha 4

   Why are women more negative about dating than men? The question should be: why not? Are men even aware of what we have to go through?? Men are shallow (how many times have I heard ”If men could only date supermodels they would”). If you’re not a blonde 5’10 Victoria’s Secret supermodel, you don’t get a chance. As a short brunette, I know what it’s like to not get any attention… And what about cheating?? Guys cheat so much and so shamelessly it’s scary. I recently saw Amber Rose’s interview on Wendy Williams Show and Kirstie Alley’s interview on Ellen and it surprised how both of them just don’t trust men after being heart-broken so many times. Maybe if guys weren’t the jerks they are and if most of them were really as good as Evan says they are, women wouldn’t complain. Just sayin’.

5. Trenia 5

   Men don’t need to be vocal about women’s shortcomings in dating because it’s already embedded in our society, and you see it everyday in newspapers, on TV, in porn, politics, everywhere you look there is a negative charge against women. Women are constantly sized up by their appearance. Michelle Obama has a law degree from Harvard and the only thing that media and news pundits talk about is whether or not to give her latest outfit a thumbs up or down.
   I would also venture to say that if everywhere you turn women are talking about how awful men are and how horrible dating is, maybe there’s something to it, if that many people are complaining about the same thing. But what happens is women’s complaints about men and relationships get poo pooed as not being important or we’re told men are rational and we’re being irrational. And if a woman comes along and agrees with what men have been saying, everything that the rest of the group has been saying and complaining about gets thrown out the window as not being important.
   I don’t believe all men are bad, but you have to take into consideration that many women have dealt with really horrible relationships, and I’m not just talking about getting dumped, I’m talking about the really horrible things like rape and abuse, much of these acts being perpetrated by the ones who are often called “the good guys”. All of this shapes a woman’s dating experience and it comes out in the way many of us express our concerns and frustrations about men and dating. I wish that women could detach from relationships as easily as some men do, but that’s not the way it is, we hold on and stew until we’re over it. But instead of allowing us the space to go through that process, we’re punished and told we’re wrong for it.
   So now you have an entire group of women who want to be loved and in committed partnership before all of their eggs expire, on top of all of the other aforementioned issues. It’s complicated and frustrating and most of us are just looking for a beacon of light to say things are going to work out, just relax and enjoy your life until love comes.

6. sarahrahrah! 6

   I mostly agree with the assessment here and I would also throw in the fact that women are mentally more socially-oriented than men.  Other hormonal influences such as estrogen make women more sensitive and vulnerable in relationships than say testosterone.
    
   I think there have also been some shifting social mores in the past 40 or so years which have  created cognitive dissonance surrounding women’s expectations for marriage.  In the past (my parent’s generation), women could assume with some certainty that if they married and had children with a man that she could count on him staying married to her for the rest of his life.  Now, this is no longer an accurate assumption and I think this creates more vulnerability around dating and marriage issues. 
    
   As a 41-year-old single mother, I agree that dating healthy, compatible men can seem like a difficult prospect.  It does seem like you are judged as the bottom of the proverbial barrel.  Chances are that women in the 35-45 category have had more disappointments than a younger person and therefore are more likely to be cynical, less trusting and possibly still angry.  The key for me to avoid feeling negative has been to take myself out of the barrel.  In other words, online dating wasn’t working so I explored other avenues for meeting people and I am happy with where that journey has taken me.  I also have tried to cultivate gratitude and service in my life, which helps me from focusing on the glass half empty and remembering that it is half (and more) full on the vast majority of days.

7. Ruby 7

   Sorry, EMK, but while your bog is directed towards women, I have read many incredibly negative comments here from male posters. I think that complaining about the opposite sex for men is still considered whiny and unmanly. Men don’t like to admit they are having trouble with women and need help. 
    
   And while I haven’t necessarily heard that “there are no good women out there”, I’ve certainly heard,” there are no good American women out there”, and men should look for more submissive women from other, usually more disadvantaged, countries. I am not seeing women, despite their complaints, rushing to other countries to seek out foreign men.
    
   I do agree with you that women are often more vocal and open when it comes to ranting about the opposite sex, but just give men a forum (like this one) to do the same, and you’ll hear plenty of negatives, and plenty of stereotypes. I’ve been amazed at how many men have posted that any woman over thirty is yesterday’s news, that a woman’s place is in the home raising babies (so it’s not just coming from women’s mags), “advice” from the PUA crowd that focuses on using and discarding women, and so on.
    
    

8. Sad Bitch 8

   I was used for money by a man who was full of shit. Very few men and women seem to have integrity. Maybe that was always the case. I would say though that men are very simple and mostly stupid when it comes to relationships. In fact I would say in my experience they need a good coach.

9. Evan Marc Katz 9

   Ruby,

   You’re conflating two different things. You’re saying that you don’t like men’s preferences in women. The fact that they like younger, subservient, and easy, for example. I’m not defending their point of view, but it’s different than them saying that women suck, there are no good women, they’re giving up on dating, and consistently ranting about it.

   This is not to say that there are no men like that at all, but rather that the more gender-based complaints from women about men. Sure enough, some women are already enforcing this stereotype that men are the problem. Sigh.

   That’s because you date men. If you dated women, they would be the ones breaking your heart.

   In other words, I think the dating game gives equal opportunity for heartbreak but that women seem to have overall worse impressions of the opposite sex.

   Do you disagree with that assertion?

10. Karl R 10

    Christina said: (#2)
    “I HAVE heard more than one man claim that there are no good women out there, but I think those guys are probably (hopefully) in the minority.”

    I have also heard multiple men say this. They are in the minority.

    And these are also the men who have unreasonable expectations. They asked three women out. They were turned down all three times. They’re about ready to give up.

    The majority realize that that’s a normal batting average. But if you refuse to play the game, you never win.

    Samatha said: (#3)
    “Are men even aware of what we have to go through??”

    Are you aware of what men go through?

    That’s a rhetorical question, Samatha. Based on the rest of what you wrote, it’s completely obvious that you have less understanding of men than Evan has (or I have) about women.

    You rage about how men don’t understand your point of view (something you have no power to change). Other women (and men) do their best to educate themselves so they better understand the opposite sex’s point of view (something which they have the power to do).

    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    The courage to change the things I can,
    And the wisdom to know the difference.

    We’ve heard this so often that it has become trite. We no longer listen to what the words mean.

    You’re ranting about the things you can’t change.

    Trenia said: (#4)
    “I would also venture to say that if everywhere you turn women are talking about how awful men are and how horrible dating is, maybe there’s something to it, if that many people are complaining about the same thing.”

    Dating is rough on everyone. Does it get better when you complain about how horrible it is?

    Most men/women will be a poor match as a couple. They may be decent people, but they’re awful partners. Do they somehow become better matches when you complain about them?

    Let me describe a hypothetical man to you:
    You hear him say, “Every woman I date is either conceited, a complete flake, or a psychotic nutcase. Every time I finish a date, I want to shoot myself, shoot my date, or both.”

    Do you want to date this man?

    He doesn’t sound pleasant. He doesn’t sound happy. He doesn’t even sound safe. Any halfway-decent woman knows she has better options.

    Trenia said: (#4)
    “we hold on and stew until we’re over it. But instead of allowing us the space to go through that process, we’re punished and told we’re wrong for it”

    Smart men vent their frustrations privately. Less successful men vent their frustrations on a first date, then wonder why she doesn’t want a second date.

    Trenia said: (#4)
    “most of us are just looking for a beacon of light to say things are going to work out, just relax and enjoy your life until love comes.”

    If I believed that, I’d still be playing video games every night and waiting for love to come.

    Dating takes a bit more effort. Change the things you can. That’s what empowers you.

11. Ruby 11

    EMK #9
     
    I’m saying that men complain about women all the time; she isn’t young enough, subservient enough, didn’t have sex soon enough, or whatever it is. What are these complaints that you’re referring to, if not gender-based? What’s the difference if a man is saying that all women over 30 or all American women suck?
     
    As far as Moxie’s quote, “They don’t have disclaimers or requirements beyond ‘Please enjoy giving head, be able to pay your bills, take good care of yourself and don’t be a pain in the ass’”, I think that might be a tad simplistic for many men. At least I hope so.
     
    We still live in a patriarchal culture that favors white men, so no, I’m not surprised that women complain more.
     
    What Trenia #5 said.
     
     

12. sthrnphoenix 12

    I disagree with a couple of the comments.  We are on the internet.  If you don’t think that a misogynistic jerk who just wants to rile up a bunk of women would find a site that offers dating advice to strong, smart, successful women an inviting target, you are burying your head in the sand.  Of course there are male commentors making ridiculously ugly statements.  Based on the grammar of some of them, I would guess they are not American.  Based on some of the inflammatory comments of a couple of others, I would guess they are just your run of the mill asses.  They make up a very small portion of the male population as a whole.  We really can’t base our opinions of all men based upon a few bitter men that are looking to cause trouble.  What about the men who comment with well though out opinions?  The ones not trying to cause trouble or tick off every woman he comes across but is instead presenting a man’s point of view?  Do we just forget them? 
    I am a short, 37 year old single mom with a particularly nasty relationship behind me.  My ex-husband was abusive, my divorce was incredibly horrible, and I haven’t received a dime in child support since August of 2009.  If any woman can be bitter and disappointed, I think I qualify.  Yet, I don’t judge all men by my ex.  I still assume most men are good and decent.  I don’t have a problem getting a date.  And I don’t have to deal with a bunch of men who think the only thing I’m good for is sex.  Mostly because I put on a smile, keep positive, and kick the jerks to the curb once they exhibit the truly bad traits.  My reward for all of that has been that I have been in a relationship with a terrific man who makes me feel loved and appreciated for almost a year now.  We don’t have to date someone we are repulsed by, or that has horrible habits, or that treats us like garbage.  We just have to be truly open to meeting him, let him show us why he’s a great catch, and show him why we’re a great catch too.

13. Jewel 13

    I’ve often heard the phrase, “there are no good men out there”. I’ve never heard the phrase,”there are no good women out there”.

    No, but I’ve heard the phrase uttered from the mouths of many men ” women are crazy, psycho bitches….”  

    I can’t tell you the amount of men on online dating sites that comment when talking with me on the phone, about how normal I seem, and feel the need to mention that I don’t sound crazy. Seems every woman is crazy but me!

    Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. There is a lot of truth in them, which is why they live on in both genders.

14. Jewel 14

    PS Viva la difference

15. Ashley 15

    EXCELLENT points, sthrnphoenix(#12).  I agree with you 100%.  If we look for jerks, we will find them. If we look for good men, we will find them.  Period.
    

16. Helen 16

    Ruby 11: agreed. I have to say, I’m not sure what the point of this article was. It seems deliberately and artificially divisive, making false dichotomies between men and women. And Moxie’s comments are just flippant; they don’t really add anything to the argument.

    The truth of the matter is, some people are positive and some people are negative; it doesn’t split along gender lines. This blog and its readers are proof of that.

17. Agree! 17

    I’ve seen this article before and I definitely agree with it… I think many women today price themselves out of the market OR they have a Huuugeee list for the men they date and don’t consider whether they themselves can provide any of those things.

    The other end of the spectrum is women who have such low self-esteem and are so effed in the head that they believe they don’t deserve good things and thus, stay with losers. 

     What Ruby (#7) said about men complaning there are no good American women is also true to an extent. I’m an American women but I’ve been to a lot of others countries in Europe and have traveled to the Caribbean, Argentina and Israel and well.. women in other countries just don’t face the same pressures that we do and thus are so obsessed with “achieving” and doing it all or being it all. They’re a lot less…. umm shall we say neurotic. 

    Here in the U.S., it seems that women are generally split into two: too much self-esteem and expectations or too little. *Sigh* 

18. nathan 18

    As a man who spends a lot of time reading, writing, and talking about dating and relationships, I see plenty of evidence that bitching and moaning is a two way street. It’s just that far fewer men are broadcasting their crap through dating blogs and dating forums, other than PUA sites, some of which are filled with obnoxious. 
     
    What I find interesting about these kinds of posts is that they are basically a set up. If you disagree, and you are a member of the group being attacked, then it’s used as evidence in support of the original argument. And of you a member of the group being upheld, you could say something that disproves the argument, but you will be simply dismissed as an “individual bad apple.” Or an “exception.”
     
    Frankly, dating isn’t that easy these days for a lot of reasons. And the majority of “good people” go through periods of complaining, feeling horribly negative about the opposite sex, and the rest. I actually doubt that many of us could honestly say we haven’t been through periods like this, even the most confident and healthy amongst us.

19. Jules 19

    Jewel #14:  Totally agree.  I’ve heard so many men describe their exes as “psycho bitches.”  It’s a big red flag.  Rarely is a relationship breakup that simple.  Really, they had no part in it, it was all her fault because she was a psycho bitch?  

    When I’m reading an online profile and it says “NO DRAMA!!” (and it’s always in all caps with multiple exclamation points) I move along to the next one.  I would guess, conservatively, that 50% of the men’s profiles I read flat out say NO DRAMA or NO GAME PLAYERS or something similar.  And yeah, I’ve read other women’s profiles and lots of them say something like “NO LIARS, CHEATERS OR GAME PLAYERS” The negativity is so unattractive, no matter which sex it’s coming from.  

20. david 20

    Expectations — I Think EMK hit on the head with that one — two of my closest girlfriends — one is 42, the other is 44, have put themselves on these 2+ year dating hiatus because of heartbreak, disappointment, lack of good prospects, etc. And me (a guy) I just move on — the cost of doing business. Sure, there are flakes and siocipaths and dick teasers and attention vampire suckers but then there are awesome people I met I end up being buddies with (actually both of the two listed above)

    I never say (or have heard) “There are no good women out there” because we see our guy’s friends wives or girlfriends…they did it….

21. Desdenova 21

    @ Ruby #11
     
    You are missing the point of the article.  A casual glance at an online dating website at men’s headlines I very much doubt we’ll see the complaints you deem common such as “only subservient women apply” and “are all the easy women taken?” No doubt there will be a few general complaints along the lines of “normal only please!”
     
    However, MANY women openly advertise their dating frustrations on these very sites which they want to get dates…which seems counterproductive to me.
     
    It’s not that men don’t complain about their dating experiences. They do. It’s that on the whole, they just aren’t nearly as loud about it in public forums as women.

22. vee 22

    To Agree #17:  I’m from the Philippines and have been lurking here for months. Believe it or not us women on the other side of the world do experience this difficulty dealing and dating with men. No difference at all.

23. Ruby 23

    Desdenova #21
    <<A casual glance at an online dating website at men’s headlines I very much doubt we’ll see the complaints you deem common such as “only subservient women apply” and “are all the easy women taken?”>>
     
    I don’t read the men’s headlines on online dating websites, but I’ve certainly read plenty of complaints by men on this particular blog, as well as in the article referenced by EMK.

24. Ruby 24

    And interesting that when women comment on the opposite sex, it’s a “complaint”, but when men comment, it’s a “preference.”

25. Fiona 25

    I have been reading this blog and was almost buying into it until suddenly I realised what Evan is saying (paraphrasing):

    As a 36 year old professional you should realise that men value youth over intelligence or success when they want children. Therefore you should accept that men don’t think you are valuable and and start dating older men less attractive, intelligent and successful than yourself or you will be alone. And when you do date these men much older (if you are not already totally depressed by having to), don’t forget to ask yourself:

    “Do you go out of your way to make sure that each man who goes out with you has a positive experience? Do you make men feel good about themselves when they take you out?”

    Evan with this sort of advice Is it any wonder that women are so negative about dating? You have more or less told them they aren’t going to be valued by an equal but should pander to every whim of an unequal or be alone. It is a bit like saying someone with a law degree should stop trying for a law career when times are hard and focus on a career as a waitress and don’t complain about it. No-one in their right minds would be proposing that!

    I would suggest ladies that if this is true, you are better off alone! I know that it hurts and i know it is lonely (I know I am) but is having a partner for the sake of it going to make life better? Are you not just going to be lonely but lonely with someone else? Isn’t that actually worse?

    Evan would be doing the world a better service if he focused on sorting out the issues of those men in their 30s who won’t date their natural biological mates (single women in their 30s) after a decade of not being ready to marry in their 20s…rather than telling all the women it is all your own fault that you are single which doesn’t really help because, despite evidence to the contrary which suggests that men in their late 30s if they are still bachelors are unlikely to marry anyone, it is myth that commitment phobes exists….oh really?

    Girls, it is not your fault that you are single. It happens!

26. Tash 26

    I think from my own experiences women tend to go by feelings & emotions too much in their selection of dates. Most men & women make the mistake of rushing in too soon, for men they want the physical, for women they want the emotional connection. Both parties tend to jump right in boots & all with out taking the time to really examine their prospective partner closely. Then they realise what they have is not what they want. Men quickly just move on to the next prospect with out looking at their formula which gave them lousy results & women get hurt & express that hurt & blame the men also with out examining their approach that gave them too lousy results also.

    It takes 2 to tango! But yeah women are more apt to express their experiences & men are more likely to take their feelings & experiences to the grave. lol 

27. Maria 27

    Evan said: [To Ruby] “In other words, I think the dating game gives equal opportunity for heartbreak but that women seem to have overall worse impressions of the opposite sex. Do you disagree with that assertion?”

    Forgive me for jumping in. Yes, I disagree with this assertion. We live in a patriarchal, misogynistic society. In addition to your garden variety  heartbreak that everyone may get with dating, women also face the risk of being physically hurt, violated, brutalized and traumatized for life. Even for women who have not experienced these things, the undercurrent of fear is always there.

    What’s more, because of the influence of porn, men have expectations of engaging sexually with women in a demeaning way. My last boyfriend (an otherwise nice guy, intelligent and so shy that at 26 he had in me his first girlfriend) got angry at me because during sex, and without any previous discussion about it, or lubrication, he attempted to penetrate me anally and I stopped him (as nicely as I could). He left me on the couch without a word and went to bed, gave me the silent treatment for the rest of the night. 

    Dating, for women, is a medium to high risk activity where our personal safety is at stake. Forgive us for being a bit more high-strung about the whole thing.  We lower our defenses, strategize to maintain a reasonable level of safety, manage risk as best we can in order to engage with strange men on the dating scene. Many of these men, instead of honoring and cherishing us, and doing everything possible to make us feel safe and protected, choose to give us the runaround, play games, try to use us for booty calls when we have already discussed that we are looking for a relationship, etc. 

    It is not an equal opportunity game, Evan, don’t kid yourself. Have you ever stopped to think whether you were safe or not when going out with a woman? Women have to think about that all the time. The numbers game men play doesn’t quite work for us because with each stranger’s car we jump into, the risk of being raped or killed increases. 

28. Zaq 28

    I know Evan doesn’t buy into this, but I support the women’s views here.
    It IS easier for men to say there are plenty of good women, because they are biologically programmed to be attracted to as many females as possible.

    Women are not. They only want the best. This is a biological imperative that they find hard to overcome. However it IS their problem, because there is nothing for men to do about it.

    Yes, men do talk about foreign women, but only because the local variety aren’t interested (read my stuff on Norwegian men)

     

29. Nadia 29

    I agree that women are typically more critical than men, probably because we’re more verbal. (But I also suspect we are also more effusive about what makes us happy than men are.) So in the spirit of proving my own point, I will say, I would love to find a man who enjoys going down, can pay his own bills, takes good care of himself, and who isn’t a pain in the ass. But that seems like a lot to ask for from my experience. 

30. Helen 30

    Nadia 27: “I would love to find a man who enjoys going down, can pay his own bills, takes good care of himself, and who isn’t a pain in the ass.”

    Ha ha ha!   Good point.  Men’s and women’s wishes aren’t so different after all. 

31. Evan Marc Katz 31

    I’m popping in here on Sunday because after spending 6am-9am alone with the baby, I need some good, adult conversation about how men are rapists.

    At least that’s what you’d get from Maria’s post. The constant threat of physical pain, rape, trauma, safety and murder is the reason that women are more negative about dating. To this, I have two things to say.

    First of all, there’s no making light of pain, rape, trauma and murder. Men are the ones perpetrating these crimes on women. If you’re a woman who has been victimized, I feel terrible for you – and would remind you something you already know intellectually – rapists are an extremely small percentage of men. Most of us would never consider violence under any circumstances. As hard as it is to learn to trust, it’s imperative. The next innocent man who you date has nothing to do with the man who hurt you.

    Second of all, when Moxie and I were talking about the negativity of dating, we were both alluding to the dimestore variety of heartbreaks and dating mishaps. In nine years of coaching women on successful dating, I’ve spent a grand total of zero minutes listening to women’s complaints about physical threats and about 10,000 hours listening to complaints about men who don’t call, who don’t commit, who don’t like them, who disappoint them, etc. So factoring out the danger factor – since it hasn’t come up in any of my conversations – I maintain that women’s reactions to dating disappointment is disproportionately greater than men’s.

    Next, to Ruby, to whom this post seems to really have struck a chord. Complaints and preferences are just language. But don’t kid yourself for a moment – there IS a difference between “I’d prefer a man who was financially stable” to “I HATE unemployed men.” One is a positive expression of what you’re looking for, one is a negative expression. A man who says that he prefers a woman who is feminine, optimistic, confident, understanding and self-aware is not saying, “I hate women who are negative, argumentative, bossy, insecure and clueless about how men think” (although that can certainly be implied). So while our issues are semantic, the practical application is not. I’m not defending men who say, “Women are crazy, emotional golddiggers,” I’m saying there are fewer men like that than women who say, “All men are pigs and liars. I’m giving up on dating. There are no good ones left”. We can disagree. Just know that this is my profession and I’m not saying this (obviously) to pick fights or ingratiate myself to women. I’m saying this because I believe it to be true and think perhaps we can all learn from a perspective shift.

    Which brings me to Fiona, who has earnestly misread me in the same way that so many others have. If you choose to read this blog or if you choose to read my book Why He Disappeared, it will be clearer to you how I’ve never said the things you’ve suggested I’ve said. Do men value youth and beauty? Yes. Do men value intelligence? Yes. Do men value success? Not as much. When it comes time for a man to have children, does it make more sense for him to chose a 45-year-old or a 25-year-old? I think the answer is obvious. But that’s not the real twist you put on my words – you suggested that women would have to disavow who they are and pander to older men in order to find love. Never said that. Not even once. Unless you think it’s mutually exclusive for a smart, strong, successful woman to be sexy, thoughtful, supportive, patient and nurturing (which are characteristics that men hold dear). Personally, I find that most of my clients can manage the trick, which is why they so often walk away from our time together with relationships. So please, stop throwing stones when my job is to help, not hurt women. I’m a coach for women. I help them understand how good men think. If you want to be a coach to help men, since men are the problem, be my guest. I think you’ll struggle to get your business off the ground – which is genuinely one of the biggest problems with men. They don’t want to change.

    Finally, Nadia and Helen – Is it so wrong to want a man who is cute, sane, easygoing and virile? I don’t think so. Men just figured this one out a long time ago.

32. Ruby 32

    EMK
     
    Yes, it’s true that rapists are a small minority of men, physical and emotional abusers are a small minority of men, but they are out there, and it’s often very difficult to distinguish who might be abusive or even dangerous in the early stages of dating. It’s also of those things you think could never happen to you…until it does. This is one of the reasons that I’ve learned to take my time when getting to know someone.
     
    As I said earlier, men just aren’t as vocal about their heartbreaks and dating issues as women are – it’s still considered unmanly and weak. That’s why I enjoy reading the posts by Nathan, Karl R, and a few others, who don’t seem to reflect the negative views of many of the men who comment here; even if I don’t always agree with them, they are reasoned, thoughtful, and fair.

33. Erin 33

    I read this article, and I agree with the overall premise–that older women certainly can be very negative, while older men typically are not. Typically is the key word here.

    I think there is a very easy explanation as to why that maybe I just did not see expressed in the article. Older women who have been dating for 15 – 20 years are burned out on dating because, typically, they have been hurt by being emotionally invested in relationship where the men they dated are not as invested.

    Many men don’t start to seriously date until they hit their later twenties–they are dating for fun in their early twenties. Unfortunately, not-so-serious Sam dates hoping-for-a-future Holly for a while because she is pretty and they have fun together. Holly is hoping for a commitment, while Sam is just enjoying himself. Once Holly pushes for a commitment, Sam cuts her loose because he is not ready yet. Whether Sam was 100% faithful during that time or playing around doesn’t matter–Holly is still heart-broken. Most women have been through this same experience over and over; they are invested, but the guy is not. Most guys who are dating with the intent to find commitment have only just started, so they spent the last few years having fun; of course they aren’t bitter about dating! Women typically want commitment, so they have spent the last few years hitting dead-ends; of course they are bitter!

    I see the bitter feelings in men who have been dating for a while and looking for a serious gal, as well. Unfortunately, it’s usually the guys who are not considered to be a ’10′ and they often go after the girls who are ’10s’. They hate how the pretty girls turn them down, use them, or play games with them. Women do the exact same thing with extremely handsome who won’t give them the time of day, who use them, or who play games with them. 

    Overall, I think both sexes can be extremely bitter about dating. Typically, women appear to be more bitter because they have had to deal with it longer than men do. 

    (please take my use of the word ‘typically’ as intended. I know that there are many women who have no desire to get married but who are simply tired of dating jerks. Likewise, I know that there are many men who have wanted a serious relationship since middle school. My response is meant to address the general trend seen in dating, men and  

34. Laura S. 34

    No, men don’t come right out and whine, “There are no good women out there” the way women tend to do, but they express the sentiment in so many ways.

    The Player whose goal is to maneuver, nail it and get out, and all the other men who want to emulate him are saying, “Women are only good for one thing.”

    As a young woman, I was the first woman working in a male dominated field.   I was one of the guys and I kept my mouth shut and just listened to the men talk about women.   Oh, and they talked!  They even talked about women I knew!  

    If she puts out she’s a slut.  If she doesn’t put out, she’s a lesbian.  If she makes out but won’t go al the way, she’s a prickteaser. All women are gold diggers.  I don’t recall them ever saying anything nice about women.  The married ones would do a group bash on their wives. Those who didn’t participate remained silent.   This wasn’t just one group of men, either.  I worked on several different crews.

    The positive take away for me was not to learn to mistrust men, but to quickly pick up the vibe and negative attitude so I can avoid men like this.   It leaves only the good men on my horizon.   

    I’m sure good men also quickly pick up on women’s negative attitudes toward men so they can avoid them.

35. Maria 35

    Evan, to reduce my statements to “men are rapists” is a gross and unfair misrepresentation. 
    What I am saying is that, from the point of view of personal safety, dating is a no risk activity for men and a medium to high risk activity for women. What I am also saying is that rape and other crimes against women are not unusual events, and therefore there is an undercurrent of danger to the woman in every dating interaction with a stranger or semi-stranger. We are taking a leap of trust every time we go out on a first date.  And men (the non-rapists, which for sure are the majority) are taking this trust for granted and not honoring it, or us, as much as they should. 
    Here are some statistics for you from the RAINN website:
    Breakdown by Gender and Age
    Women
    1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).1
    17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.1

    9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.2
     
    Lifetime rate of rape /attempted rape for women by race:1

    All women: 17.6%
    White women: 17.7%
    Black women: 18.8%
    Asian Pacific Islander women: 6.8%
    American Indian/Alaskan women: 34.1%
    Mixed race women: 24.4%

    Sexual assault is one of the most under reported crimes, with 54% still being left unreported.1

    
    
    The Rapist isn’t a Masked Stranger
    Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
    73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
    38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
    28% are an intimate.1
    7% are a relative.1
    He’s not Hiding in the Bushes
    More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.2

    4 in 10 take place at the victim’s home.
    2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
    1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.

    43% of rapes occur between 6:00pm and midnight.2

    24% occur between midnight and 6:00am.
    The other 33% take place between 6:00am and 6:00pm.

     

36. Fiona 36

    Apologies if I have then misunderstood what you are saying.

    While I can’t speak for all women, the main reason I am negative about dating (and the same applies for many of my single friends) is down to previous relationships in which I have invested everything I have to give but have ended in heartbreak because while I have been as sexy, thoughtful, patient and nurturing as I can be, the nature of my legal job has also meant that I have been totally stressed out, stuck at work late at night for days on end and utterly exhausted at times – which means that I can’t give anything when it all goes crazy at work because I am too busy trying to survive it – the only men seem to understand that are those male colleagues that have lived it (but they do tend to date and marry women in lower status jobs taking a straw poll of my colleagues who have more time to be all of these wonderful things to them). This all makes dating a pretty tough experience for professional females. I’d chose a husband and kids over career any day but I would also like to have a roof over my head and food in the fridge if I don’t… 

37. Helen 37

    Evan, not sure what you’re talking about. I never said, thought, nor suggested that it was wrong to want a cute, sane, easygoing, virile man. Nor did Nadia.

    But yeah, being stuck alone with a baby for 3 hours can suck, unless it’s sleeping the whole time.  Good luck. 

38. Margo 38

    “I’ve often heard the phrase, “there are no good men out there”. I’ve never heard the phrase,”there are no good women out there”.

    Women have adopted this stance because more men take advantage of women than women take advantage of men.

    Men more commonly use women for sex and think nothing of it. They know the expectations that most women have after sex, but they don’t care. They take the sex with the foreknowledge that they won’t be calling afterward, and hope the woman will get over it quickly.

    Let’s not paint too rosy pic of men, Evan. Again, so many of you know exactly what you’re doing, whereas most women don’t operate this way. Wouldn’t you agree?

39. Kurt 39

    Samantha (#4), are you serious?  If you have been cheated on by different guys it is because you chose to be with the wrong guys.  Most men don’t cheat, but if you are going for men way out of your league, you are far more likely to get cheated on because those guys don’t really care about a woman whom they think is beneath them. 
     
    Also, height isn’t that big of a deal to most men if the woman is cute. 

40. Nadia 40

    Evan, there’s not a single thing wrong with cute, sane, easygoing and virile. I’d take that, too.

41. Tom 41

    Having read these comments I’m starting to sympathise with many of the women on this blog. I’m one of those men that most women here have probably come across before and loathe; I date women casually with absolutely no intention of developing a relationship. Most women give me about 6 weeks to 3 months before they bring up the ‘where’s this going’ talk. Once that happens I tell the truth and get dumped, but the woman is still upset that I was never serious about it and was just ‘wasting her time’.

    I’m 28, so I just assume that in a few years when I get tired of ‘going on the pull’ I can simply decide that I will meet a nice girl and be serious about it. Women can’t necessarily make that assumption so I understand their bitterness.

42. Katherine Wakefield 42

    I think there are a lot of issues here.  Women do express themselves more freely than men.  I have a healthy outlook on men and dating but when i was online dating if i wasn’t in a good place, i very soon would have been saying “all men are the same”! If you aren’t in a good place, then bad dating/relationship experiences will reaffirm negative beliefs about men.  
    I’m more of a take men as i find them.  If a man is behaving in a way that isn’t acceptable to me, then it’s about him, not all men.  

43. Evan Marc Katz 43

    Thanks for posting, Tom. Yes, you’re the man that I tell my clients to avoid, as any regular reader here already knows. And since I generally advise women not to have sex with any guy who isn’t exclusive, it would greatly diminish the amount of time and heartbreak invested in the men who use women for 1-3 months before moving along. I didn’t say that guys like you didn’t exist, Tom. I simply said that women hate dating more than men. Thanks for reinforcing one of the reasons why.

44. Evan Marc Katz 44

    Maria, I already acknowledged the pain of sexual assault and this post was about negativity, not rape. Plus, I donated to RAINN last year. If you want to contribute something valuable, how about you consider why someone like me, an advocate for women, would insinuate that women are too negative about dating? What motivation could I possibly have?

45. Kurt 45

    Maria (#35), where do you get your statistics?  I find it very, very difficult to believe that nearly 15% of all women have been raped. 

46. Kurt 46

    The crazy thing is that the women who complain about men “wasting their time” and dating them for months would probably often be turned off if they actually did meet a man who wanted a relationship because they would think that the guy was too “nice” or some b.s. like that. 

47. Melle 47

    Its not just bad experiences that make women negative about dating, Its the men in their lives as well. So many marry men cheat and who does this affect? The women in their lives, especially their daughters who become cynics in their heart. 

    I have a brother cheating on his wife and my father is cheating on my mother. Never been cheated on, but all the men in my lives who should be setting up good examples are actually the one makeing me cynical about love and trust and honestly. Im surrounded by unhappy, sad, depressed, and angry women who has sacrificed so much for their men (my sister in law and mother included), theyve given their bodies up for bearing children, their jobs or lack of jobs, everything for these men to just end up cheating on them.

     What does this tell us about men? And that ‘live in, the moment’ article by Evan, men DO live in the moment, thats how cheating happens. When your man cheats, its because he wasnt thinking about his commitment to you or what youve given him, he was just living in the moment….with another woman that is. Absolutely selfish behavior. 
     
    Women are negative for a very very good reason.

48. Fiona 48

    Maria, don’t worry too much about it. Just meet in Starbucks, make sure you aren’t followed when you leave and do not let a stranger give you a drink that you haven’t seen made by the barista so you can be sure nothing is in it. If you give out a number before meeting make sure it is a cell so you can change the number if need be. Most importantly trust your instincts – if something doesn’t feel right don’t meet up/ leave. I’ve only had one situation which was a bit uncomfortable with a guy that sent about 10 SMS and called twice the day be we were due to meet so I told him he was coming on a bit too strong at which point he turned verbally abusive and started sending nasty text messages for a few days which I ignored until it stopped. Not pleasant but no harm done. Don’t let fear of attack stop you from dating – just be sensible.

    Tom, I wouldn’t like to have to live with your conscience.

49. Nadia 49

    Wow! The Battle of the Sexes is alive and well! Evan, I DO believe you’re an advocate for women and I send women to your site on a regular basis because your advice has been so valuable for me. But I also agree with Maria that dating isn’t necessarily an “equal opportunity game” because there IS something inherently disadvantaged about being the weaker sex physically. It’s a different paradigm having to be constantly aware about not being taken advantage of sexually. Men might be feel unsafe some of the time, but women have to be aware of it on a regular basis. Whether that is due to social conditioning and is ultimately unfounded, or whether there are statistics to back it up… it just is a fact of life for us. But I agree completely that it would benefit women to stop the broken record about men being such assholes and start looking around with a different filter. I think it’s important for women to really learn what their personal needs are before they invest too heavily in a relationship; we need to find out if the men we date are interested in meeting those needs instead of trying to change them into different people. That’s up to us.

50. Evan Marc Katz 50

    Oh, and Margo, in case you think I forgot you:

    “They know the expectations that most women have after sex, but they don’t care.” That’s right. So don’t have sex if you can’t handle it. Your default setting is to blame the guy. My default setting is to ask “Why do you keep sleeping with men who aren’t your boyfriend and who also lack character?”

    As you’ve been reminded many times here, you can control the latter, not the former.

51. nathan 51

    The thing about Tom’s statements is that there are plenty of younger women doing this nowadays as well. Casual dating is quite commonplace. In fact, not only amongst young folks still figuring out what they want, but also amongst middle aged folks who are either on the rebound, or who have given up on long term relationships. While it might be true that more women are focused on LTRs and marriage earlier in life, it’s less true than in the past. Since Evan cites Moxie’s blog, go read it. Moxie herself spends a lot of time supporting people who want to date casually through her advice. And her readers seem to be anywhere from their early 20s to their late 40s, perhaps even older. Speaking of which, the only real issue with Tom is that he’s not honest upfront. Since he says he has no intention from the beginning, he should be clear about that with his dates.

52. Henriette 52

    Evan, I truly believe that you like women, care about women and want women to find love and happiness.  While I do think there are many men who complain about “spoiled, entitled Western women” who lack the grace, petite bodies and desperation-fueled gratitude of our 2nd-world sisters, I hope that they are in the minority.
    Tom writes that the comments on this blog make him sympathize with women.  Well, many of them make me feel for men!   @Melle47: I’m sorry that both your dad and brother are cheating on their wives.   That’s terrible.  But, I know women who cheat on their husbands and that doesn’t mean that all women lack character.  Do women give up a lot in marriage, as you mentioned?  Sure.  But men do, too.  Most husbands work long hours, pay more (financiall) towards supporting the family, and see their immediate family (parents & sibs) less frequently once they marry.  Divorced men, not women, pay most child support and alimony.  Sounds to me like BOTH men and women make sacrifices when they marry.
    I hope all the women who are complaining so bitterly about men are helping raise sons, nephews and neighborhood boys to respect women, pay their own bills and develop fine values.  If you’re not part of the solution, you’re just (a very whiney) part of the problem.

53. Margo 53

    Honesty is the crux of the issue of which you write, Nathan. Sure, there are women who date casually as well as men. The diff is that most women will be honest about what they’re doing, most men will not. So, let’s not act like it’s just “Tom” who’s not honest. Most of you men share that trait when looking for sex. And make no mistake, it IS disgusting and heartless.

54. nathan 54

    Margo, if that’s the story you want to believe, then go for it. I’m sure as hell not going to waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.
     

55. Kurt 55

    There are lots of men who want relationships with women.  However, so many women either date other men casually or they foolishly commit to men are are dating multiple women.  So some men end up dating multiple women and some men end up dating no women.  So I don’t feel too sorry for those women whining about men in the comments here, because I am certain that they don’t feel empathy for the men who can often go months or years between dates or relationships.  If women had more realistic expectations with respect to dating they wouldn’t get into a situation where they commit to a man who isn’t willing to commit to them.

56. Margo 56

    Nathan, that is the story echoed in the majority of comments on this thread. I did not say all men behave like this, but I believe that most do. Unfortunately, there are more men in our society who are willing to take advantage of women than there are who choose to behave in an exemplary manner when their penises are involved. If you choose to deny that, go ahead.

57. Fiona 57

    I dated a guy for 2 years from when I was 33 to 35 who constantly talked about getting married and our future children. He worked on a ship so was away on  a 3 month rotational basis. I was ok with that. All was going really  until 18 months in I started a new job which was extremely stressful as I was being asked to do things I frankly was not qualified or trained for. As we had moved to a new town and that involved expense I had to make it work so I put in lots of overtime but was  overwhelmed. Neither of us knew that I was physically ill too but when he went off to sea I saw the doctor and found out that I was ill and needed an operation. We went out for my 35th birthday the night before he went away where he assured me he did love me and wanted us to marry one day and then I never saw him again. After 3 months at sea and  having me wait for him to return he had decided that he didn’t want to be with some lawyer who was tired and stressed all the time so I was dumped by telephone one week before an operation with a broken heart blaming myself for being tired and stressed. 6 weeks later I did try to start dating again as I was able cope better with the stress when I was not physically ill. However I was numb. I know not all men will quit  in a crisis but I had to grieve for the loss of the relationship before I could offer love again. A year and a half on I am ready to do that but my options are limited. I suppose the three points I am making are that it is hard to date until you have healed, it is hard to date if you have a stressful career, and it is hard to be positive about dating when we are constantly having the message reinforced that there are limited options in the late 30s. Still I am at least trying. What more can I do?

58. Rosy 58

    Apart from the childrearing thingy (the women I know who are complaining about dates already have children and don’t want any more) I do seem to hear women complain more about their dates than men.
    I do wonder if part of it is – and I think someone might have mentioned it already in comments – that women tend to deal with disappointment more by talking through it, and having a jolly good moan, whereas men tend to deal with it more internally.
    Interestingly, when it comes to my married friends, it tends to me the men who complain more about their wives. I don’t know if this is universal or just peculiar to my particular circle of friends and acquaintances. (Yes, I know my circle of friends isn’t exactly large enough to base a survey on!)

59. AnnieC 59

    @Tom 41 (and Evan 50.)

    Tom, don’t start feeling too sorry for the pity party you are listening to here. Women fought for the right to manage their own lives through feminism. We are now responsible for who we date ,who we sleep with,  when we sleep with them,  who we choose to give their hearts to. It’s what we asked for, therefore it is what we are responsible for.
    We are not victims and I do not believe(from what you’ve said) you are a bad person. It’s up to us, to figure out what we want and express it and say no to men like you if we aren’t happy. It’s not up to you to read our minds.
     
    @ Maria

    I am immensely tired of the female victimhood that seems to be penetrating our society as thick as a cloud of nuclear waste. 

    Most men, do not rape. Most men do not sexually assult. Women have been taught “incorrectly” by the feminist movement that all men are potential rapists and that women should be afraid.

    What a horrifying affront to men. It’s complete rubbish.

    Women should be pulling their heads out of their butts, and start managing their lives, instead of crying the victim all the time. Evan mostly gives excellent advice on how to avoid the pitfalls of a bad man. Most men are good. Most men want to love women. Most men want to be loved by women. Most men want their women to be happy.

    That is most men. And rather than embrace this reality, which is very encouraging, you would rather talk about rape. No you aren’t being realistic, you are playing the victim and focusing on ONE issue with fearmongering victimhood. It’s pretty easy to go on a first date, during the day in a public place. So quite the pity party huh?

    Men on average have far more threats to their safety in most areas of life, than women. The ONLY area, where women are in more danger, is sexual assult. 

    Perhaps pay more attention to the shit men deal with in society and the dangers they face and empathise with men, than complain about the 1 area of life, in which we face a greater threat.

60. Jadafisk 60

    Most people are merely alright. Not good, not bad, but alright. They’re self-serving, they make mistakes, they get rash and do things that hurt other people deliberately. Most people want happiness for themselves and have little idea how to find it. In the process of doing so, most people aren’t above stepping on some toes and wounding some spirits. We shouldn’t demonize men, but we shouldn’t deify them either. They’re still people – sometimes they have faulty intentions, but often they have faulty methods. Women can be guilty of mistaking the latter for the former because they look so similar. As to why women complain more, it’s because it’s more socially acceptable to do so, not because men don’t have complaints due to women being so awesome or men being so easy to please.

61. Heather 61

    Sorry, EMK, but you’re not totally correct here.

    I have met a TON, yes, a TON of very negative, nasty, mean men who are truly negative about dating.  So many complainers, whiners, yadda yadda yadda.

    It was really making me go wow, why bother with men, they just think I’m psycho, ugly, high maintenance, desperate for kids (actually I’m desperate to NOT have kids!), and wanting to marry after 2 dates.

    I was just getting tired of the rudeness, misogynistic, whiny attitudes, you name it.  Are we women perfect?  Not by a damn longshot.  But I at least TRIED to go in with a positive attitude, tried to learn, and keep my mind and heart open.

    It’s no wonder why some of my female friends have just given up on dating.  They’re just done with being mistreated and I certainly can’t blame them.  Heck, if my current relationship doesn’t work out, I may not even bother dating, at that point.  The headgames, drama, rude and thoughtless, even abusive, behaviors is making my stomach knot up just at the thought of it.  Plus, remember Einsten’s theory of insanity: trying the same thing over and over, yet each time expecting a different result. 

    Now for the record, I’m not saying I’m perfect.  I have my issues.  But I at least try to be nice, attractive, kind, and a fun date.  But I can’t control how a guy’s going to behave. 

62. Stacy 62

    I don’t think you can generalize that men are less negative than women about dating. There are jaded and burnt out individuals of both genders out there. For every woman that says there’s no good man left, there’s a guy who is “never paying for the first date ever agan”. Endless rejection hurts both men and women. The problem is not with either men or women, it’s a societal problem, where men are fed endless images of perfect female bodies (some not even real) and women are being sold the bill of goods that you can “have it all” – i.e. both a career and a classic picture-perfect family. As a result, everybody has unrealistic, unattainable expectations. This also appears to be a pretty much coastal problem. In the middle of the country people seem to have no problem settling down for good in their early 20-ies and having kids in high school by the time their counterparts on either coast finally find themselves “ready to commit”.

63. Helen 63

    AnnieC 59: Can you figure out a way to express your good points without being so unjustly hostile to women?  Your words are downright confrontational:

    “Women should be pulling their heads out of their butts… instead of crying victim all the time”

    “rather than embrace this reality… you would rather talk about rape”

    “quite the pity party huh?”

    “pay more attention to the shit men deal with”      

    Yes, none of us should play victim. But neither should you go on diatribes against people about whose lives you know nothing.

    Perhaps some of the women posting here really were rape victims, so your words come across as cruel and completely thoughtless. I was never one myself, but I have been stalked by men, and it was terrifying. From your spellings, you seem to be from a country outside the US – so I will tell you that here in the US, it’s a well-known statistic that men become most violent to women after the women have filed restraining orders. So even though this legal instrument is supposed to protect us, we don’t want to use it against men because we know we’re more likely to be attacked if we do.

    Rape and stalking may be more extreme, but countless other examples of aggression occur quite regularly. For you to poo-poo this, and to pretend that women are not victims in such cases or that we have complete control, is clueless rubbish.

    Your point about men facing more threats to their safety, and therefore ”pay more attention to the shit men deal with”, is irrelevant. We are talking about men and women in relation with each other here, not about generalities. By and large, men face threats to their safety FROM OTHER MEN, not women.
     
    Of course not all men are bad. But many women have very good reason to be negative and cautious based on their past experiences. I still don’t buy into the notion that women are necessarily more negative about dating. But if it were true, surely we can come up with a good reason why: because men are far more likely to be aggressive, even violent, in a dating relationship than women are.  It doesn’t take a majority of men to make that true, nor even a large minority.  The vast majority of men could be wonderful, and that would still be true.

    Your anger and hostile attitude toward women here is misplaced. 

64. Ruby 64

    AnnieC #59
     
    “Rape” is not the only issue here. One quarter of American women suffer domestic violence. Men do also, but the number of women who experience it is more than double that of men. Homicide is also the number one cause of death for women in the workplace. From the White House website, “One in five young women have been sexually assaulted while they’re in college.” So this is not the rare phenomenon that you assume.
     
     

65. Tom 65

    Thanks Nathan, Margo et al for your comments. I disagree that I am being dishonest, or ‘disgusting and heartless,’ (by dating without the intent of a relationship).
     
    I try and act as conscientiously as possible; therefore, I never lie or obfuscate, talk of the future, or meet her family etc, and I only pursue women when the sex happens early. I follow the army’s rule: “don’t ask, don’t tell”. As Evan says though, men like me are easy to spot as we disappear if sex isn’t forthcoming.
     
    Women are definitely at a biological disadvantage in their thirties though because of that clock of theirs. I can effectively say ‘next’ indefinitely until I hit the jackpot (a super-model thinks I’m cute/funny enough to give a shot.) However, men are at a disadvantage when younger (most men are ignored by women until their early to mid-twenties and consequently can be angry/bitter young men), so over the course of a lifetime the bitterness probably evens itself out.

66. Ellen 66

    All my life I’ve heard many men lament when they are dumped “she’s crazy”. This seems to be many men’s explanation for what went on- “she’s crazy”. No introspection, no thoughtful analysis of the past relationship, just “she’s crazy”. So from that I understood that some men just REALLY can’t take rejection. They will re-write history, do what it takes to simplify it to “she’s crazy”.

    What percentage of men do this, I’ve no idea.

    So with some of these men, if they were friends, I would gently suggest that just in case she wasn’t really crazy that they examine their hearts and minds as to what really went wrong as that would probably result in personal growth for them.

    I’ve been rejected myself and it hurt like hell, but I’ve never reduced the man to “he’s crazy”. I don’t hear that from women as often either. I just think women are more willing to re-visit these emotions and to overthink things (alone and with their gfs) so they can emerge SANE from the break-up. For many guys it’s just so much easier (esp. on their egos) to say “she’s crazy”.

    That said, I really think most men and women dislike dating but for different reasons. Men hate having to deal with dishonest women who show up obese when their photos suggested otherwise. Men probably hate the expense of dating, etc. Other reasons too.

    Because women are more emotional, invest too much emotionally early on, especially if they hit the sheets, they do hate dating more, especially if it is prolonged and they have to date dozens of men to find a decent guy. Dating is especially difficult for the unusually empathetic, which I am.

    I appear to finally have a true boyfriend though. We are exclusive, we have told each other we love one another, etc. It took me three years though to find him. Three, long years during which I initially dated about 5-10 men/year. Not a lot (though it just seemed excessive to me), but would get derailed in various “mini-relationships” that lasted on average about 4-6 months. In most of these mini-relationships I had to deal with loners, players, one guy looking for a sugar moma, and one guy who wouldn’t commit because he wanted to be open to “trade up” I think, given I was 11 years older probably. Not sure. Don’t care anymore.

    All I know is, I only dated my current boyfriend to get over! the latter jerk. I had no expectations it would last more than a few dates, but voila, the universe finally surprised me with a decent guy, a guy actually truly looking for a relationship. So nice surprise.

    After I starting dating him I made a promise to myself to just go celibate rather than date anymore if it didn’t work out ’cause I hated dating so and the often negative energy of it was taking too great a toll imo. I still jointly raise an adult autistic daughter which can be incredibly taxing, so can ill afford to invest too much emotionally in this silly dating battlefield. lol

    But I envy men’s ability to take the dating process more slowly- they have nothing invested in it really, no ticking biological clock. I think they crave intimacy, but not to the degree women do. Men seem better able to focus more their careers, sports, hobbies and not obsess over coupling the way women do. I guess it’s all how we are programmed culturally.

67. Selena 67

    Are women more negative about dating than men? The forums I read have far and away more female commenters than male. There are also far fewer contented people – single or partnered – commenting, presumably because they are are not interested in dating/relationship forums. Also, the internet is a great place to vent frustrations anonymously. 
     
    I don’t know if women on the whole are more negative about dating than men, but those who do feel negatively use this medium more than men.

68. Rochelle 68

     I think part of the negativity on women’s side is also that there are more women than men around, and men are supposed to be “pursuers” so men seem to have more options…which made me feel at one point “wow I have no chance of being with someone then since I’m not supposed to pursue” But now  that I have a better understanding of how things work, I’m not left feeling powerless. I was starting to become negative over dating but when I learned how to handle things better, I became more positive and as a result it’s made me attract more positive attention and made dating fun.   Feeling less like a victim and more like a woman who knows her self worth  who will simply choose not accept poor treatment is really helping.

    Most of the issues with dating and bitterness on both sides are from women not understanding men and men not understanding women.  If we would just make a better effort to understand how the other sex (generally) thinks and relate that way, we’d all be better off. So with this realization, that’s all I could do for myself. Since men are less willing to read self-help books on how to understand women, theoretically if women would say “no” more often to things like sex without commitment, going on a date with a guy who texts them once a week, etc men will realize they have to change to keep us.

69. Evan Marc Katz 69

    Yes, Rochelle. Yes.

70. Laya 70

    AnnieC #59, I really liked and agreed with your post.
    I find the negative and bitter posts from women to be very off putting. Women (and men) should take responsibility for their decisions and actions. They should have a little self reflection and put some effort to see beyond themselves.
    I would be interested to see who on this forum are in relationships vs those that are single. My guess is that the really bitter posters are not in relationships. The bitterness is really unattractive.
    While I have had many disappointments with dating and men, my default has always been that men are generally good people…who sometimes can behave badly, inconsiderately or blindly. But still they are generally good people (most of them). I feel the same way about people in general (of course women included). 
    Btw, I am a 41 year old single mother (over the 35 year old range) and I’m seriously dating a fantastic guy (39 years old). I met him online. I’m thrilled that we found each other. Many men are flexible with their age criteria so long as you are attractive, look in shape and have a healthy and happy spirit. 
     
     
     

71. Heather 71

    Have to agree with the posters above about the domestic violence and how it can color women’s dating experiences negatively.  Because my ex husband was violent, it’s made me much more nervous about guys.  I’ve told guys straight up that I don’t tolerate guys who yell or scream to get their point across in an argument, and I won’t tolerate men who have had substance abuse issues in the past.  I’ve had a few guys get rather nasty about it but I figure it’s my life, my safety.  And if a guy can’t respect that I went through hell and now need to be more watchful, well, that’s his problem, not mine.

    Because of my ex, I’m more prone to thinking the guy could have an underlying rage problem, hiding substance abuse from me, etc.  So I am a lot more cautious, and less likely to believe everything a guy tells me.  I’ve been dating my guy for almost 5 months now, and I still don’t feel like I truly know him, and can be sure that he’ll never hurt me.

    It’s sad but that’s reality.  Yes, I had to learn to be better about picking guys I date, but still, the experiences left scars and have left me feeling not so great about guys in general.  I know that not all men will abuse or beat me or back me into a corner and scream at me.  But until I know for sure that a guy won’t do that, well then I have to be much more mindful.

72. Michael17 72

    Awww man. As a guy, I’ve done my share of pointing out what I find difficult about dating women: Too guarded when you first meet them. Too focused on The Chemistry Thing (and expecting it to happen even while they are so guarded!). Too picky about the faults of the guys they go on dates with, while not seeing their own. Too inconsiderate of other people’s feelings (e.g., disappearing acts after dates where the guy put in a lot more effort than she did to make this a good date).
     
    I still have yet to read the rest of the posts on this thread, but women have countered that the reason they act this way is only out of concern for their safety–both physical AND emotional.
     
    Truth be told, dating is hard on about everyone. It seems that both genders treat each other horribly. Making snap negative judgements about the other person and disappearing instead of letting someone down easy. As well as pretending to be into a relationship until after the sex happens. And finally, being on your best behavior until after the other person is hooked, and then revealing your darker side.  Dating sure would be easier if people would treat each other with more respect, IMO.
     
     

73. nathan 73

    Tom@65, actually don’t ask, don’t tell isn’t the rule anymore. And really, it worked the same in the military as it does in relationships. You aren’t telling the whole truth. Again, I don’t think you’re a bad person, and it’s fine if you just want to do the casual thing. But I don’t think it’s fair to assume every woman is going to be cued in enough to guess that you’re just looking for a fling. If you feel you are doing nothing wrong, then why not say upfront “Hey, I’m not looking for a long term relationship here. Are you cool with that?”
     
    The issues of rape and domestic assault can certainly color women’s experiences. I have dated multiple women who have were raped or assaulted. It did make intimacy on all levels somewhat more challenging. However, at the same time, none of these women viewed me as a threat that needed to prove he wasn’t going to hurt her before any closeness could develop. They seemed to be able to balance the need for safety with a genuine desire to see the guys they were dating as good people unless they actually did something that brought that status in question.
     
    Laya, I’ve known a number of quite bitter people who were in relationships (usually with another bitter person). And given the ability to be anonymous online, it’s easy enough for someone in a struggling relationship or marriage to spend a lot of time venting online. I did it myself several years ago towards the tail end of a long term relationship. For me, talking to people online somehow helped the last strings to unravel. It was different than talking with friends and family. I’m sure there are plenty of others doing similar venting.
     
     

74. Heather 74

    Oh I agree Michael, and let me tell ya, the disappearing thing ain’t just confined to women.  I’ve posted on here before how frustrated I’d get, with men who just couldn’t be bothered to be nice enough to let me down easy, instead of disappearing.

    We do treat each other horribly, that I can agree with.  I learned alot about how not to treat men, and I always said something to a guy that I could tell was into me, but I wasn’t into him.  I rarely got that kind of treatment from guys, 99 percent of them were just rude and would tell me they’d call, and never did.  But I learned hey, that’s their karma, and that will come back and bite them in the ass.  All I can control is my behavior, and treat a guy as I would want to be treated.

75. Michelle 75

    “Hey, I’m not looking for a long term relationship here. Are you cool with that?”

     Nathan, that would be the mature, grown up thing to do wouldn’t it?  

    “All I can control is my behavior, and treat a guy as I would want to be treated.”

    Right on Heather, that’s ALL you can control.  Let me say this, if you always strive to come from a place of Love, you can never go wrong.  The more love you give, the more you get back.  For most people though, they haven’t ‘gotten’ this message (both the men you might date who have their own challenges to the negative Nellies on this blog , so strive to be an example.

76. Margo 76

    Tom says: I try and act as conscientiously as possible; therefore, I never lie or obfuscate, talk of the future, or meet her family etc, and I only pursue women when the sex happens early. I follow the army’s rule: “don’t ask, don’t tell”. As Evan says though, men like me are easy to spot as we disappear if sex isn’t forthcoming.

    “Don’t ask, don’t tell”, Tom? Why don’t you tell? Because you are not being honest, that’s why. You know that if you DO tell that you want only sex, most of the women you date won’t give it to you. You are withholding information that is in your dates’ best interest to know.

    I’m sorry, but this behavior does qualify as disgusting. You are in it for what you can get out of it with no thought for the women you hurt by withholding your true intentions.

77. Susan61 77

    In response to listening to men when they tell you they don’t want anything serious….my friend was in her late 20′s when she met her now husband. He told her flat out on their first date that he was not looking for a relationship and did not want anything serious.  She said fine, did not freak out, did not pursue him and they spent time together as friends.  They went camping and did not have sex.  They did casual things together and did not have sex.  She did not sleep with him for over 3 months.  They ended up getting married, are now 50 with 3 kids.  Often men don’t know what they want and are afraid of getting tied down before they are ready.  I agree with Evan that if a man tells you he doesn’t want a relationship and you’re not willing to just hang out with him casually as a friend and see if something develops, then stop dating him.  But if you take the pressure off and just keep it casual while delaying sex, sometimes men can fall in love s-l-o-w-l-y.  I never learned this lesson until it was too late but my friend knew what she was doing. 

78. Michael17 78

    Susan, ignore a man’s (for that matter, anyone else’s) words at your own peril. If someone tells you that and you ignore that and you get burned, then you only have yourself to blame….

79. Tom 79

    Fair point Nathan and Margo. I suppose it is lying by omission. Although if I should say upfront that I’m not looking for anything serious, surely by the same logic she should say outright; “I’m looking for a boyfriend, then a husband, then 2.4 kids and a dog”, yet no woman has ever told me her long-term intentions upfront like that. I always assumed that since it was never official, she wouldn’t develop deep feelings and would shrug it off as another fling. Reading the comments here, I’m a bit taken back by the hurt many women feel, I’ll be more cognisant of leading girls on in future, and be more upfront.

    Susan61, great point about some men not having a clue what we want – defintely applies to my friends and I (all late 20′s).

80. Evan Marc Katz 80

    Your feedback, Tom, is very valuable and women who bristle at hearing this truth should resist the urge to attack you.

    Dating is every person for him/herself. You can be conscientious and not sleep with anyone until you’re in a relationship (which is what I started doing in my early 30′s), but it’s not your job to have a full-on discussion about where things are headed on Date 1.

    Sometimes, two people are attracted on Date 1, hook up and then, depending on his/her level of interest, either fade away or start dating exclusively. Does the fact that you hooked up with her on date 1 mean that you definitely want her as a girlfriend? No. Does the fact that she hooked up with you on Date 1 mean that she’s going to think you’re an ideal boyfriend? No. So let’s all get real. If you can’t handle the consequences of hooking up without commitment, don’t do it. Stop expecting men to tell you the whole truth on the first date as some sort of awkward public service announcement. It’s simply not a realistic goal. Certain men will become more conscientious, but that doesn’t mean that all men are going to get on board.

    Try imagining a world where everyone expresses his/her intentions on Date 1 and has to stick with it. The woman has no right to change her mind on Date 3. She has to commit to him because she kissed him or slept with him. Sorry, but everyone has the right to gather more information.

    Wishing for men to stop putting sex before love doesn’t make them stop. If you want to put love before sex, then make that your policy. He’ll either get on board or move along.

81. miskwa 81

    I think that both men and womyn are often negative these days AND that given the “short attention span” communication styles we engage in such as facebook, texting, on line dating, etc. that we collectively loose the ability to read non verbals and have unrealistic expectations of folks we have yet to meet in person. It also seems that “evaporating” without any explanation now seems to be accepatable behavior and that there are few consequences for men or womyn who consistently treat people badly. It used to be that we womyn would compare notes, protect one another from the bad actors.  As an easterner, I notice that casual “relationships” are the norm here in the west.
    I am just getting to the one year breakup/no contact anniversary of a non relationship with a guy that seemed perfect for me (intelligent, good environmental values, active, fit) who turned out to be an incredibly insensitive player. He was very good at it; I did not find out his real nature for two years. That said, I dont think that ALL men are this way. I also dont think that I should settle for someone that does not have the good qualities that I seek, that work for me. That does not make me a picky American, It makes me a woman who knows herself, who looks out for herself.  Yeah, dating is incredibly frustrating; there are no other available men here who share my core values. The town I live in has a bad reputation (somewhat deserved) for being a dumping ground for the addicted and marginal; we all get tarred with this same brush. I am not in a place to abandon my job and mortgage as I am close to retirement (8 years). Many of the challenges I face when dating arise from my location, not me per se. This can make a person pretty bitter at times as I often feel punished for something that I have no control over. I think that there are good men out there, just not anywhere near here. Men and womyn look at rejection very differently and we deal with problems differently. Rejection, especially if you have invested a lot of time in a person, is much harder on a woman than a man. Men seem to easily forget the memories and move on. Womyn do not. Womyn deal with problems by vocalizing them; hence the “dissing men”; men shut down. Men often go for younger women. We older womyn generally are not attracted to younger men as they are less stable and mature than we and we women face a declining dating pool as we age because there are fewer older men, especially men that take care of themselves.

82. Margo 82

    Susan…if you don’t want to get hurt, you’d do well to heed Michael’s warning in post #78.

83. Goldie 83

    In my short dating experience (been divorced about two years) I have only had one man treat me really badly. (Trust me on that one — I had commenters on Moxie’s blog confirm this for me once, and these people never sugar-coat anything.) Everyone else, treated me as best they could, and I like to think I returned the favor. With that said…
     
    I’ve had first dates where the guy said he’d call me and I never heard from him again.
     
    I’ve had sex with people that I never saw again. Sometimes it was their decision, sometimes mine, sometimes mutual.
     
    This comes with the territory. I just learned to understand that neither of the above is a criminal offense. This is how the game is played. After a great date, I’d say to myself, I had an amazing time tonight — but, odds are I will never see this guy again and I’m cool with that. It’s the memories that count.
     
    The way I see it, (okay, I admit that I originally got this idea from Nathan, though I may have expanded on it — but he still gets credit), ultimately, we come to the dating market looking for an LTR. To me, that means we are looking for a person that we’ll spend most of our free time with, share our thoughts with, offer and receive moral support during hard times, and so on. In other words we are looking for a new best friend — not only that, but a best friend that’s great in bed as well. That’s a pretty tall order. I ask you, people, what are the freakin odds that we will actually find one? Pretty darn low, right? In the meantime, don’t we want to relax and enjoy the ride, regardless of its outcome? Just take it easy, meet new people, have a good time. If the new person treats you so badly that there’s no way you can have a good time with him — leave and move on to the next person. With this attitude, worst that can happen to you is, you won’t have your LTR, but you’ll have a ton of good friends that you can call on for advice or just to hang out or chat (or, gasp, NSA sex if and when you need it). Win-win.

84. Margo 84

    It appears we differ regarding an individual’s responsibility to be forthright as to his or her state of mind regarding what they are seeking out of the dating process on the first date (actually, this should be done when they first began communications). However, I agree with his solution for those who want to avoid being used: do not have sex until you are in an exclusive, committed relationship.

85. Margo 85

    Sorry, in post no. 84, I am referring to Evan and I.

86. Evan Marc Katz 86

    Margo – What if I’m looking for love and marriage ultimately but can’t know if I want to marry you for a few years? Should I not even make a first move until I’m sure? How does it work for the majority of men who want families but also want sex? You expect them to negotiate this on Date 1? “I like you, I’m attracted to you, I want to hook up with you, but I can’t promise that this relationship will work out in the long run. So let’s go to second base tonight and I will consider calling you tomorrow if the rest of the night goes well.” It’s honest, all right. But it’s really frickin’ weird.

87. Susan61 87

    Oh, I am not saying that I disregard what people – men and women – say, I assume they usually mean what they say.   I am just saying that *sometimes*, in dating, men, maybe mostly younger men, are fearful and don’t know exactly what they want. They know that most women want committed relationships and they know what that entails. So *some* men are spooked by the idea of it and they blurt these things out as a defense mechanism.  Some (I would venture, many) men and women don’t know what they want.  Perhaps many do, but I was not one of them.  
    I just used my married friend’s example of what can happen when a woman relaxes, doesn’t pressure a man early on in a relationship and just lets things happen.  Since she didn’t sleep with him, she had less of a chance of being devastated if he dumped her.  She had less invested since she kept it casual.  Yes, in her late 20′s maybe she could afford to do this as she did not feel her clock ticking.  She was very independent and did not pursue him, she lived her own life and he was intrigued by this.  So she ended up marrying the guy who told her he wasn’t looking for anything serious.  It’s not the first time I have heard this happen.  Certainly it doesn’t always work out this way but sometimes it does.
    Recently, another girlfriend of mine, early 50′s, met a man and that same night, had a massive make out session that almost led to sex (but did not) and she then asked him right away if he was looking for a serious relationship.  He balked (as he barely knew her) and said he didn’t think so.  If she NOT asked him this, and just hung out with him for awhile, delayed sex for a while, was relaxed and happy and just got to know him s-l-o-w-l-y without demanding where the relationship was going before he even got to know her, she might have had more success in obtaining that relationship.
     
    I’m single, and am just reflecting on things I’ve learned in my 50 years on the planet.  Human relationships are not black and white, there are many shades of grey.  I have not that naive, so Margo and Michael, I appreciate your concern but you don’t have to worry about me. 
     
     

88. Margo 88

    Evan, I’m talking about men like Tom who have already decided that they are going to play around for a predetermined length of time, and for right now, just want sex and nothing more.

    These men need to be upfront with women and let them know that immediately. That way, the women who are on board with it, can go ahead and participate, and the women who are not on board, can choose to not participate. This way no one is led on, everyone knows what the deal is.

89. AnnieC 89

    @63

    I’m not hostile towards women, I am frustrated by the extent of female victimhood in our society. Women always looking for something to complain about, rather than something to be happy about.

    We talk about how there are mostly decent men out there, and some-one immediately brings up rape. Why?? Evan’s point is made. You want to focus on that, and play the victim fine. If you want to date and meet nice men you can easily avoid situations that may threaten you, and this one-sided focus its just female self-obsession. That may offend you, it is however exactly what men are dealing with when it comes to dating women.

    Men face huge risks these day’s when getting married. Divorce and custodial agreements currently favour women, to the point it is getting ridiculous. But is that ever mentioned? No

    Women may suffer physical domestic violence, but so do men.And many many men suffer from emotional and verbal abuse from their partners, but it isn’t something that’s often talked about. Thankfully, it is finally becoming more mainstream(some-what), that women can be just as aggressive and abusive as men. Women also cheat as often as men.

    We don’t have lily white hands.

    I don’t come from a very politically correct culture(Thank god), and this oversensitivity of western women really needs to stop.

    Learn how not to be a victim, instead of just complaining about it.

    And although I don’t agree with all that Evan say’s, listening to him and accepting what he say’s (instead of immediately bringing up rape), is a good start. 

90. Selena 90

    Evan, great points in #80. It can take me up to 2 mos. to determine if a relationship might become serious – or not – and even then things are still unfolding, remain to be seen. I sure wouldn’t want anyone to make me decide on date one which way it was going to go. Not possible.  How (or why) would I expect a guy to know he wants something serious with me before we even know each other?
     
    All relationships start out casual: you don’t know each other very well -if at all, and you can’t predict how you will feel as you get to know each other better. Nor can you ever predict how long a relationship will last. Is there a point where there is an onus on one person to say they don’t see it moving beyond casual? An onus on the one who wants more than casual to speak up? When would that point be?
     
    Should people like Tom, who KNOW they only want casual be upfront about that? Should the people who KNOW they don’t want anything casual be upfront about that?

91. Ruby 91

    What’s wrong with saying something like, “I like you, but I’m not really looking for anything serious right now. I hope you’re cool with that.” I’ve had men say this to me, and I appreciated their honesty. No, they didn’t get sex, but we were both able to walk away knowing our cards were on the table. Why not move on to the next person who is okay with it?
     
    Maybe if Tom said this, he get turned down more often, but he’d also come away with a clear conscience. A woman might be loathe to say that she is looking for a serious relationship right off the bat, because we’ve been taught that it might scare the guy off. We usually tend to follow the man’s lead.

92. Ruby 92

    There’s a difference between not knowing how you feel about a particular person early on, and knowing, as Tom has said about himself, that he has “absolutely no intention of developing a relationship” with anyone.

93. Evan Marc Katz 93

    I gotta step in here:

    Let’s distinguish two kinds of men:

    1. The guy – like me – who was perfectly willing to hook up but ultimately was searching for love and commitment.
    2. The guy – like Tom – who is not at a place right now, or ever, where he wants to commit.

    The intimation is that both of these guys should somehow volunteer up front that while they’d be willing to hook up, they can’t promise it’s going anywhere.

    This is a nice, but unrealistic suggestion.

    On a good date, you’re laughing, drinking, flirting, having fun, connecting. You’re certainly not talking about your future. At least I hope not. Here’s the transcript of that date.

    Guy 1 or Guy 2 leans in to kiss her after a fun night.

    She says: “Before we do anything, I just want you to know that I’m very serious about marriage and don’t want to waste my time if you’re not equally serious. So, are you looking for a relationship or are you just looking to have fun?”

    Guy 2 says: “Sorry, I’m just looking to have fun.” Crisis avoided.

    Guy 1 says: “Ummmm…that’s a little intense for me. I mean, I’m looking for a serious relationship, but I can’t tell you if it’s going to be with you yet. We’ve gone on one date. How about we just make out and we’ll go from there.”

    Woman: “Not until I know if you’re sincere about your intentions. I don’t want to get hurt. I don’t want to waste my time.”
    
    Guy 1, after a pause: “Yeah, um, I really can’t tell you that right now.”

    Woman: “Let me out of the car.”

    Guy goes home and tells his friends: “That was so weird. The night was going well and then she became so serious. She was negotiating our future as we were hooking up!”

    Woman tells her friends: “He was a typical player. All about sex. He couldn’t tell me where things are going even when I asked him point blank. Next!”

    My long roundabout point is this: having this conversation with a decent guy is going to make him feel interrogated. More importantly, it’s going to make you seem like you’re fearful and lack confidence. A confident woman can make out with a guy and know that he’s an idiot if he doesn’t call her the next day for more. An insecure woman has to ask him in advance.

    You simply can’t expect men to VOLUNTEER this information to you, unprovoked. And if you ask, you can’t always expect it to be a neat conversation, because half the time (Guy 1), the guy doesn’t even know the answer himself. By trying to avoid any sort of uncertainty, you protect yourself from anything ever getting started. You win, but you also lose.

94. Selena 94

    @Ruby #91
    I think if more people used the phraseology you described above there might be far less misunderstandings and hurt feelings amongst daters.
     
    There have been times when I started dating after a breakup I knew I didn’t want to get into something serious and used similar words to make sure the guy knew where I was at. It’s not difficult.

95. nathan 95

    When I said Tom should be clear, it was only because he said he had no intentions of developing a relationship with these women. It was the definitive way he put it that made me think “you should just be upfront with that.”
     
    In general, though, I’m in agreement with Evan. Dating is about discovery. About getting to know each other, enjoying each other, and seeing if there is enough of a connection to develop a relationship. I can say on a first date that my overall goal is to find someone to be in a long term relationship with, but that’s about as specific as it could get. I would never say “My intentions are to be in a long term relationship with YOU.” Because we don’t know each other. And surely, most women would rightly run away if I said something like that on the first date.
     
    The reality is that neither of us really know what our intentions are for being with – or not being with – each other in the long term. You really can’t make promises early on because you just don’t know each other well enough. And so, you have to decide what to do about issues like sex. I have been on both sides of the coin when it comes to having sex and then deciding soon after that the connection isn’t good enough to continue. It’s how dating goes, even for those of us who are not as quick to rush into bed together.
     
    The problem with this whole discussion about intentions and first dates is when there’s an expectation of it moving from general to specific. In my view, it’s easy enough for any adult to make statements like “I’d like a long term relationship or marriage at some point.” It’s putting out that base-line intention out there. Many of us do so in online dating profiles already, so saying it in person isn’t that big of a deal. However, that base-level intention is much different than an expectation that someone turn that into a declaration about YOU, after one or two dates.
     
    In the end, I just think a fair middle ground is for people to offer whatever base-line is driving them – if they have some clarity about it. Again, I see plenty of men and women writing “I’m just looking for fun right now” or similar statements in online dating profiles. That’s the casual base-line. It isn’t about locking yourself into an immovable position on a first or second date. Nor is about answering an interrogation designed to pin down a person’s specific intentions. It’s about giving people a clue about what could happen, based upon where your focus in your life is now.
     
     

96. Margo 96

    EVAN says: You simply can’t expect men to VOLUNTEER this information to you, unprovoked. And if you ask, you can’t always expect it to be a neat conversation, because half the time (Guy 1), the guy doesn’t even know the answer himself. By trying to avoid any sort of uncertainty, you protect yourself from anything ever getting started. You win, but you also lose.

    Then, per your suggestion, the way a woman should deal with both of these guys is to firmly state at the start of communications that she does/will not have sex outside of a committed, exclusive relationship. Then the woman does win. Right?

    Guy no. 2 will simply slink away and crawl back under his rock, and guy no. 1 will simply have to wait. If he doesn’t, then the woman has successfully avoided another casual sex encounter, and is then free to welcome the next man into her life who’s willing to honor her relationship stance in the interest of getting to know her better with her clothes on.

    Of course, any woman could meet a man who will promise her a relationship, get the sex, then dump her. This is, however, the worst lying scum imaginable though, and I hope there aren’t many men out there like this.

    To paraphrase Evan, and this is going to be rather crude, ladies: In order to guard your heart, it’s best to keep your legs closed until you’ve obtained the relationship you want.

    Forewarned is forearmed.

97. Fusee 97

    @Evan #93: Yes, I agree that this scenario can look awkward… However this is pretty much what happened for me and my boyfriend.
    Not at date #1 but at date #3, not really with these exact words, and certainly not coming from a place of insecurity, but rather from a place of confidence and taking myself and the progress of intimacy seriously. Because I really do, and there is nothing wrong in encouraging a date to do it as well. I do not want to have sex with another ten guys, neither do I want to kiss another ten guys.
    We had a great first date, where at the end, when he asked to see me again I said that I would love to but that I needed us to take it slowly and get to know one another better first. We had another awesome second date, then a very long third one when we realized that we really had really similar values and lifestyles. It’s when he started trying to hold me and become more physical. I let him hold me and said that since I suspected he was looking for a summer fling (he was in the area for another six weeks only), I was not sure about becoming physical, as I was not into flings but rather interested in assessing whether or not there was a chance of developing something deeper. I did not demand anything, did not ask him to know what he did not know (hey I did not know myself either!), but simply stated what I was looking for, what my boundaries were and that I was willing to get to know him without physical involvement. I thought he was going to run for the hills… and I was willing to take the risk and let him go because this is truly important to me to proceed slowly and respectfully. But no, he did not run. Looks like I was too much of a fun, attractive, and interesting date : ) We changed topics, spent another three hours together, and at the end he brought up to topic again all by himself and acknowledged my need to know what’s on offer. He said that although it was (of course) too early to tell about the future, he was interested in general in the prospect of having a serious relationship and was willing to see where our thing was going and possibly go for a long-distance situation if that was what was going to be needed. So he understood where I was coming from, did not think I was crazy since I communicated my needs in a very respectful and rational way and I was the first to acknowledge the obvious need for more time to see if our initial connection was really promising, and did not promise anything either,… After that slightly uncomfortable conversation, we had plenty of light and fun times. And more conversations aimed at truly getting to know one another. And yes, at date #4 I kissed him. Not a nun! Sex happened way later, when we decided to be in a relationship whose goal was going to be exploring the potential for marriage. 9 months later, we’ve made great progress as we are both actively engaged in growing our relationship. He is the most amazing boyfriend.
    Discomfort is part of the process. We should not run from uncomfortable discussions just because we do not want to feel awkward.
    Basically, this is Evan’s strategy with an extra step of caution. He suggests no sex before exclusivity, which is priceless advice nowadays. I suggest no kiss before exclusivity, and no sex before having made sure that LTR/marriage is the common goal and even the most likely outcome (basically having already discovered enough compatibility of values, lifestyle, communication skills,…). Does not mean you need a promise for something you litterally do not know, but rather just an idea of the options, and how you both will be exploring them together.
    For people who do the online thing and date multiple people at the same time (I do not do any of this), this would be even more reasonnable to proceed like I suggest since it would allow you to assess multiple people without being used by players/clueless people or exhausting yourself emotionally (which I did in the past when I was going too fast).
    No need to be negative. Know your values, establish healthy boundaries, communicate from a place of respect for yourself and others, progress slowly and steadily, and be okay to walk away from whatever does not fit your values. There are plenty of people who will share them, and who will also be attractive, intelligent, thoughtful, and more! It’s a work pf patience, self-control, and integrity.

98. Evan Marc Katz 98

    @Margo. “Then, per your suggestion, the way a woman should deal with both of these guys is to firmly state at the start of communications that she does/will not have sex outside of a committed, exclusive relationship. Then the woman does win. Right?”

    You’re almost there, my friend. It’s not “firmly state at the start of communications”, which sounds bossy, interrogative, and socially awkward. But after slowly moving around the bases at your pace, when he suggests intercourse, you simply state that you only sleep with guys with whom you’re exclusive. This is done in a way that preserves his ego, doesn’t put any pressure on him for a relationship, and doesn’t ruin the entire moment. Please, pick up Why He Disappeared for more detail. Women who don’t understand that there’s a smart way to navigate sex and think that the answer is to “firmly state” that there’ll be no sex at the beginning of the date are losing men not because men are all about sex, but because your manner of dealing with it is ineffective.

    And to Fusee, who said, “I suggest no kiss before exclusivity, and no sex before having made sure that LTR/marriage is the common goal and even the most likely outcome (basically having already discovered enough compatibility of values, lifestyle, communication skills,…).”
    
    You can suggest that, but I don’t think it will be effective in most instances. Men are perfectly entitled to get a kiss before exclusivity. And both men and women could not possibly be sure that marriage is the most likely outcome before sex. That’s why you date for a few years – to find out if you want to marry that person. I do agree, though, that if you want to be married, you shouldn’t be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be married. But your rules are a little too rigid for 95% of men, and, as such, will send solid, relationship oriented guys (yes, like me), running for the hills. I’m not sticking around if you won’t kiss me. And I’m not dating you if you expect me to marry you. Most men would agree.

99. Fiona 99

    @79 Tom @80 Evan I actually cannot believe I am reading this. Wow! Tom, you are doing something very wrong indeed. You do understand women very well, you are exploiting that knowledge and their naivety for your own benefit, you are well aware that you are hurting people and yet you continue to do it. Basically you are just not a nice person. If you know that you are doing something that hurts people why don’t you modify your behaviour?

    Evan you claim to be trying to help women. However, this response shows a gross lack of empathy for people who are guilty of nothing worse than naivety perhaps but unlike Tom are not acting in bad faith. I don’t see your view of the dating world where every man should be out for himself and if a woman gets treated badly it is all her own fault for making a bad choice has much integrity to be honest. Really in this world everyone should make an effort to treat everyone else with decency and respect and cause the minimum amount of pain to others possible. People may make bad choices but we are all responsible for how we treat other people.

100. Kurt 100

     It seems as though women complain when the man goes “poof” and disappears.  I question whether the men really broke off all contact or whether he simply stopped asking the woman out.  If the man isn’t interested, then he is well within his rights to simply stop asking the woman out unless they were in a relationship.  Women do something similar where they simply stop answering the phone or returning phone calls.
      
     I have simply stopped asking women out in the past even though I was reasonably certain that they would have gone out with me again if I felt as though they were taking advantage of me, weren’t putting enough effort, or were disrespectful in some way.  I would have answered the phone to give an explanation if any of those women had called to ask what happened, but those women didn’t call.
      

101. Fusee 101

     @Evan #98: I completely agree, it’s on the rigid side and not a suitable suggestion for most of your smart, strong, and successful clients who need to open up their dating pool instead of shrinking it as I chose to based on my priorities. It’s a suggestion to people like me who wish to limit their emotional investments to prospective partners who would be more likely to be compatible in goals, values, and character, beyond the initial first months of dating. There is always a risk of course, and it’s okay, but my method limits it a bit further to prevent overthinking, negativity and burn out… and too much unnecessary exchange of body fluids. Also I have to admit that I have no experience with online dating and/or multiple dating, so exclusivity has never been an issue but I needed to make sure it would not become one. Anyway I’m not trying to reinvent your wheel: your advice is the best out there especially for your target audience and for online dating, and I’m totally impressed with how your communicate it. Thanks so much!

102. Goldie 102

     @ Evan #98
      
     “You’re almost there, my friend. It’s not “firmly state at the start of communications”, which sounds bossy, interrogative, and socially awkward. But after slowly moving around the bases at your pace, when he suggests intercourse, you simply state that you only sleep with guys with whom you’re exclusive. This is done in a way that preserves his ego, doesn’t put any pressure on him for a relationship, and doesn’t ruin the entire moment.”
      
     I like it… How about something like this: “there’s something I need to tell you — I cannot do casual — I get attached too easily when I do. It’s just something I can’t help — that’s just the kind of person I am. So can we please take it more slowly and get to know each other?” (bat eyelashes, look helpless, make out) I have it on good authority that this works
      
     Had to laugh at #93, because I was that guy #1 once. After three dates, the man told me something like: “I’m going out of town for ten days. Unless you find someone else during those ten days, let’s get off the site when I return”. And then he followed up with daily calls, asking if I’d found anyone yet, and telling me how he couldn’t wait to get off the site! That was just so. much. pressure. When I finally realized that he made me feel like I was under a tight deadline, i.e. very uncomfortable and rushed, I told him that it wasn’t going to work and asked to just be friends. (In hindsight, should’ve probably asked to take things slow instead.) We are on good terms now, and get in touch every once in a while. Oddly enough, he says he has no recollection of having given me a ten-day deadline, so, he probably never realized how incredibly pushy and weird it sounded — to a woman! Imagine how much worse the it would sound to a man?

103. Evan Marc Katz 103

     @Fiona “we are all responsible for how we treat other people”. Sure enough. But are you responsible for how you treat yourself?

     Because you can’t be treated in any way if you don’t allow it to happen. You have the right to cut off a guy at any time. That’s your power. Use it, instead of complaining that men aren’t out for your self-interests.

104. SS 104

     Margo @96, it really doesn’t have to be all that complicated.
      
     My case in point. I went out with a guy twice. Never discussed sex and intimacy and he didn’t make any physical moves. We discussed a third date and I suggested some places to go. He said my suggestions were nice, but he was tired of the typical dinner/coffee dates where all we did was talk and was ready to get more physical and intimate. I told him simply that I wasn’t going to get sexually involved with anyone until we were in an exclusive relationship, but hey, how about my date ideas?
      
     He proceeded to go on and on about how I was a prude and not open, blah blah blah, and I said, “Hey, you’re entitled to your opinion, but this is where I stand and I guess we’re not going on a third date, are we?”
      
     Never heard from him again, and it didn’t bother me that I didn’t. I never had to “lay down the law,” so to speak, on the first or second date, and the conversation presented itself when he brought it up. I merely stated where I stood and then he decided he didn’t want to wait, so that was the end of that.
      
     The ball always stayed in my court and I never gave up my power, as Evan puts it. I much prefer that than to give into passion and then find out a month or two later that he wasn’t interested in a relationship when I thought we were going in that direction. 

105. Ian 105

     I just find it funny that the previous blog post was ‘How to be Happy’ and only got 20 replies, this ones has ‘negative’ in the headline and it gets 100 plus.

106. Evan Marc Katz 106

     It’s a good example, SS, but I’m afraid that this type of “up front negotiation” leads to exactly the outcome you saw. You think you’re protecting yourself. He thinks you’re being way too uptight and analytical about the first three dates. And you’re both right.

     Please read Why He Disappeared. Consider the idea that it’s perfectly reasonable for men to want some form of physical contact after three dates (not intercourse, but foreplay). And realize that if you do this “I’m not going to get sexually involved in ANY way” thing, most guys aren’t gonna stick around. Yes, even good, relationship oriented men.

     You can’t ask a man to take you out on five to ten dates, spend a few hundred dollars on you, and give him your cheek at the end of every night. I mean you CAN ask that, but it’s usually not going to fly very well.

107. Tom 107

     Hi Fiona,
     Thanks for your comment; I can see I’ve inadvertently struck a chord with a few posters.
      
     Yes I have my own dating agenda: to have as many various sexual experiences as possible (before, say age 35) whilst hurting as few people as possible. This can quite tricky and I try to be as empathetic about it as I can. I suppose there is some threading that ‘grey zone’ where neither party declares their intentions, however, most of the women I date play it cool to such an extent that I can’t be certain what their intentions are. You’re assuming that I know that the women I’m dating want a relationship. I don’t, not until she tells me. I can suspect, but I can’t know. If I know for certain she wants more, I’ll make my excuses and ‘slink away and crawl back under my rock’ (thanks MargoJ)
      
     However, I only posted originally to agree with Evan (and help you) that men like me are easy to identify and avoid and also to sympathise with women who have sadly lost hope due to bad experiences. Don’t be blinkered by our façade, and pay attention to our actions. I still don’t think it makes me a bad person, but I will try harder to make sure that they know what I’m about at a far earlier point.

108. Laya 108

     @ Kurt #100 I completely agree with your post. I have found that when men decide that they no longer want to continue seeing a woman they do just stop asking a woman out. And often when a woman stops wanting to see a man, she stops returning his telephone call. I do, however return telephone calls but I admit I’m not completely honest. I don’t tell them I was not attracted to them or there wasn’t chemistry. I usually use some soft excuse because that is my way of not wanting to hurt the person. It really does go both ways. This is why I’m more forgiving of men who disappear. I do a girl’s version of it.
     I have had situations where I may go out on a handful of dates. The chemistry wasn’t there from the beginning but I wanted to give it a chance. They did everything right. They seemed very excited about me. When I felt that the physical part of dating was imminent, that is usually when I would get out of it. I believe I probably hurt some men as I have noticed that shortly afterwards they take their profiles down. It could be a coincidence or perhaps they became exclusive with another woman. Some have even contacted me a year later wanting to try again. Regardless, I would feel a pang of guilt that I might have hurt the person. My point is that for the women who feel that men treat them badly, to stop and reflect on how we have behaved in the dating. I’m pretty certain we haven’t been perfect. It’s always easier to see things from our own lens.
     Evan, your responses have been spot on (at time a little funny too).
      

109. Selena 109

     Hi Tom.
     Suppose a woman who plays it cool really does see relationship potential with you. Since you aren’t expecting that (nor want it), do you see it as her responsibility to let you know? If so, at what point, and how do you prefer she goes about it?

110. SS 110

     Well Evan, my husband didn’t have a problem with my approach six months later so… it worked for me…
      

111. Evan Marc Katz 111

     Touche, SS!

112. SS 112

     I guess I’m not a believer in being all that concerned about men who are going to run away that quickly because of a certain comment I make or if I say something that’s not “cool” or “fun” or “nonchalant.” I spent too long worrying about that, and when I finally asserted myself and my needs, I had much better dating outcomes and much better relationships.
      
     Women need to put their own needs first and maybe they wouldn’t be so negative about dating outcomes and not feel like they’re at the mercy of some guy’s random whims (such as him not wanting a relationship at all… this guy is still single four years later. Don’t think I missed out on that one!)
      
     I knew what my needs were, acted accordingly and got much better outcomes that way… like a man who wanted the same thing I did and who was honest about it from the start.

113. Fiona 113

     Evan @103 I have bought your book and I do think you give good advice generally so I am not the enemy but hey I do not sleep with non-exclusive men and I do not kiss non-exclusive men either as I think kissing lots of women is pathetic in the 30s. I do not think however that mx ex bailing out on me after 2 years is all my fault. He has to take some responsibility for what he did which wasbasically to waste my time for 2 years with promises of marriage and kids which I can only assume he had no intention of carrying out. Excuse me if having been pushed off a cliff I am not to happy to be told I should have been further away from the edge. I thought I was far away from the edge. Now I just don’t want to go anywhere remotely near a cliff. You need to get people off the bottom of the cliff first which is why we women build each otherback up after a horrible fall, tell them they are catches, why we tell them they didn’t deserve it not just because it is true but because we have to get them back off the ground when their confidence is destroyed!

     @tom 107 you can’t get what you want without hurting people unless you go to hookers and you should ensure they haven’t been trafficked! I guarantee that a lot ofow women you do this feel worthless but don’t worry, l had your type figured out years ago andmen your type who now actually are looking at me with a view to settling down aregetting very short thrift from me now-I don’t want someone with that historythanks even If they are madabout me! 

114. nathan 114

     1. A woman doesn’t owe me anything besides basic respect, regardless of how many dates we have been on. Evan’s right that most men expect some some sort of foreplay by date three. And I don’t think that’s unreasonable, but at the same time, dating isn’t a business. In other words, what you expect doesn’t = what you should get. Sometimes guys need to check those expectations if they really are interested in a woman.
     2. If a woman is interested in/attracted to a man, she really would do well to check judgements against him if he wants to get more physical. Learn how to stand your ground about boundaries in a way that doesn’t drive him away. Evan’s pointing out that often when women try to set boundaries around physical intimacy early on, they do so with defensiveness and/or contempt. The blunt judgements in Margo’s comments are what I sometimes feel coming from women the moment I have moved in close. (And I’m talking about women who were interested in me, but wanted to “go slow.”) It’s more than words said. It’s an energetic experience. You can compose the best response possible, but if underlying it is a feeling of judgement, the guy will pick that up. It’s quite different when your desire to get physical is treated with compassion, even as a boundary is set.
     3. Tom’s point about the “grey zone” is really important. It’s easy to blast a guy like Tom when the reality is that a lot of women don’t know what they want. And even if Tom says upfront that he’s looking for something casual, it’s still the case that some of the women would be fine with that until after they have slept together. Because they then discover they want more, and find themselves feeling hurt that Tom’s desires haven’t changed. In other words, you can do everything right, and still end up hurting someone.

115. SS 115

     Evan, I don’t have a problem with foreplay on a third date if both parties are interested. I have a problem with a guy nixing date ideas to just hang out at his house and getting physical because there’s been “too much talking” on the first two dates. That’s what the guy in my example said to me. It was basically an ultimatum to me on HIS part that if we didn’t do “something” more, he was no longer going to be interested in spending any time with me.
      
     Although I cringe at Tom’s comments, I appreciate his honesty… which makes me stick to my position more on women being mostly focused on their own needs. Men certainly are when dating. Tom knows he’s not interested in a relationship, but that doesn’t stop him from pursuing women who might just want a relationship… but since he takes a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach, it’s up to the woman to also be looking out for herself and her needs.
      
     I ran into a number of “Toms” when I was dating, and since my goal was to enter a relationship that had the potential of leading to marriage if it worked out, then weedng those guys out as soon as I saw that we weren’t on the same relational path was a good thing.
      
     Most of the women I know who are negative about relationships and have bad experience after bad experience are the ones who aren’t assertive enough with themselves about what they want, and thus, they kinda drift in and out of bad situations with men because they haven’t set any sort of standard for what they will and will not accept.
      
     The Toms of the world wouldn’t have nearly the success they do with women (unless those women are ones who only want sex as well) if more women were firmer with their standards and stayed true to their desires for a more serious relationship.
      
      

116. Evan Marc Katz 116

     I agree, SS. And I hope it’s clear that I’m not just saying you “put out” for the sake of it. I’m suggesting that men need to understand women’s desire to slow down and women need to understand men’s desire to speed up. Finding the sweet spot that works for both parties is ideal. But it can’t just be “Let’s discuss over appetizers what I will do sexually and what I expect from you as a man.” It’s awkward and it doesn’t have to happen that way.

117. Goldie 117

     @ Nathan, your last paragraph made me understand something about myself, I guess — while I don’t mind casual, there is one side to it that I really dislike, and to a man like Tom it may come across as “the woman wanting more”. When I was dating, one thing I’ve noticed about my casual-leaning male friends was, they do not like to make plans. Which is understandable, because, hey, we’re not dating — we’re casual. So what they used to do instead is, they’d either call or text and ask if I want to hang out tonight, or tomorrow, or they would make plans and then cancel at the last minute. Both behaviors really messed up what little free time I had. If you text me at six PM and ask me to hang out tonight, then 99 times out of a hundred my answer will be “sorry, wish I could, but I’ve got plans”. Not because I’m trying to manipulate you into more commitment, but because I really and truly have plans! And don’t even get me started on last minute cancellations. When I’ve said no to other people in order to spend a Saturday night with you, and then you cancel on me two hours prior, you’ve just messed up my weekend and possibly the other people’s too. It creates an odd dynamic. Because we’re not in a relationship and do not owe each other anything, I’m suddenly expected to be at the guy’s beck and call. How’s that even casual? That sounds like more commitment on my end than if he were my boyfriend! Way too much work. It almost sounds like, unless both sides are in between relationships and not actively dating (and do not have any social life in addition to that), that “casual” doesn’t even work as intended. Apparently women aren’t the only ones who don’t know what they want
      
      

118. kdr 118

     Fiona wrote in #113:
     “Now I just don’t want to go anywhere remotely near a cliff.”
     This reminds me of something I read about what Mark Twain said about his cat. He said that his cat once sat down on his stove when it was hot. He then said something to effect of: “Now, she’ll never again sit down on a hot stove. But she’ll never sit on a cold one, either”.
     His point was that it is not enough to learn a lesson from a past hurt or mistake; we must make an effort to learn the right lesson.

119. SS 119

     I think we’re on the same page Evan, things can just get lost in translation. Plus, when I speak of my personal anecdotes, I don’t usually tell the whole story behind them… like the fact the guy told me this in a freakin’ EMAIL instead of in person on a date or by phone… we had been talking by phone and hanging out in person up to that point (and all was going well as far as I was concerned), and when I called after the second date, he listened to my voice mail, never called back, and then sent an EMAIL saying that he really didn’t want to get together again unless something more physical was going to happen. WTH!!! I probably would have been more understanding if he had actually made a move while we were together on the third date!
      
     So in that particular case, I don’t think I lost a darn thing by asserting my needs with that guy… who was also just coming out of a marriage and not really looking for anything serious. But in the past, I might have entertained the thought to just “hang out” to not seem like I was trying to be too forthcoming about wanting an exclusive relationship leading to marriage… and in the process, I always ended up hurt, while the guy (like a Tom type), just moved on.
      
     And I think too many women aren’t firm enough to stick to their beliefs with certain men, even when those men show with huge blinking red lights and flashing neon signs that they’re only looking for a sexual fling. And then the wheel of negativity keeps turning.
      
      
      
      

120. Fusee 120

     @SS #112 and 115: Yes, yes, and yes!
     @nathan #115: thank you for writing much more eloquently than I can what I tried to convey at 97. I agree 100%: nothing should be expected beside respect and appreciation for the time spent together.
     Personally from the 1st date I offer to split date expenses and if the guy insists to pay, I let him do for the first two dates. Date #3 is on me and then I propose to take turn. So I’m not taking advantages of men.
     Also as SS and nathan said, there is such a thing as the proper time/tone/vocabulary to use when communicating on this sensitive topic. Like on any sensitive topics when opinions can be different and trigger strong feelings. I maintain that this is not unreasonnable to expect exclusivity for any intimate physical contact, but I understand that such standards are hard to hold for most people, and it’s okay if they prefer to be less rigid. What matters is that it worked for me and my out-of-this-world boyfriend, and it creates a solid base for trust and self-control in our relationship.

121. Anne 121

     I’m inclined to agree with you, Evan.  I’ve heard more horror stories from men about dates with psychotic women than you can shake a stick at.  Women, let’s lighten up a bit, and give men the same chance we’d like given us.  Cheers, Anne

122. Tom 122

     Surprisingly enough Fiona, some women also want just casual (at times). I try my hardest to find them but they don’t have signs on their forehead saying it. They also have a vast choice of men to choose from so it can be difficult. And as Nathan says some women say that’s what they want, then change their mind, or else it subsequently transpires that they were just saying it to keep me around and hope I change my mind. I’d almost certainly sense straight away that’s not what you want and stay well clear, so as not to hurt you (unlike your ex). With other women it’s not so clear.

     Prostitution is generally illegal (and even more morally dubious) so it’s not really an option.

     @Selene, I suppose the onus is probably on whichever party is unhappy with the status quo. Evan has broached this subject on a previous post: ie. call his bluff and walk, then see if he steps up. Great questions in #90 btw, I ask myself these questions all the time (who should say what, when).

     I suppose that since I find navigating all these grey areas so interesting and revealing, I’m disappointed so many women don’t get the same enjoyment from it.

123. Selena 123

     @Tom #122
     Thank you for taking the time to answer – especially since you are getting some heat here.
      
     In #107 you wrote:”…most of the women I date play it cool to such an extent that I can’t be certain what their intentions are.”
      
     Women are told to play it cool because to play it otherwise is to risk looking clingy, needy, pushy, or weird. So you not only have women interested in a fling playing it cool, so are those who truly want a relationship, as well as those of us who see sex as part of getting to know someone before deciding if we want a relationship with them. Grey area? Perhaps, but I think it has more to do a reluctance on the part of both people to communicate what they want for themselves when they are attracted.
      
     You may be very, very good at reading women – not out collecting a jar of hearts. But since there are so many women who have felt misled by casual-oriented men…what do you think of using the kind of gentle disclaimer Ruby wrote of in her post #91?
      
      

124. Fiona 124

     @122 Tom Funnily enough I keep hearing from men how all these women love sleepingaround.Who are these women? None of the women I know have a clue who they are!

     I would not compare my ex to what you are doing – we were not just hooking up for a few years. I was integrated with his family and friends and vice versa and he had treated me like aprincess until he did disappear so I didn’t see it coming.

     I frankly don’t care if dating doesn’t work out in the first few months as I have generally invested little. My issue arises after a few years when I have. I have dates lined up on Saturday and a few next week about which I have a take it or leave it attitude – I expect nothing and nor should they. I will however behave decently

     I suppose my real issue isn’t with dating in the early stages but with betrayal of trust in the medium to longer term… 

125. Margo 125

     Tom, I’m curious: Will you be following the “don’t ask, don’t tell” rule regarding informing women when you catch an STD from sleeping around with a plethora of different partners?

126. Ruby 126

     I feel that this “don’t ask, don’t tell” style of dating is problematic. No one wants to bring up the difficult subject, for fear of losing out with the other person. The guy who just wants sex doesn’t want to lose an opportunity, and hopes the woman will be okay with it. Yeah, she’s eventually going to dump him anyway, but at least he’ll have gotten laid.
      
     The woman hopes that by sticking with the man for awhile, he’ll begin to develop more serious feeling towards her. The man ends up getting his short-term needs met (which as, as Tom put it, “interesting and revealing”), while the woman feels played and angry. Although women are discouraged from talking about their intentions to soon, what’s wrong with telling a guy early on that she isn’t looking for a fling, the same as the man saying that is what he’s looking for? Too often, a woman believes a guy is really into her because he’s sleeping with her, when he doesn’t really care all that much.

127. sephor 127

     Tom #107: I have my own dating agenda: to have as many various sexual experiences as possible…

     Why?

128. Michelle 128

     Tom, women aren’t built like men, we emotionally bond in a different way then men so what starts out as casual does often become more for her.  It’s jsut the way we are and wishing it was different doesn’t excuse that it’s immoral not to be upfront with them about your intentions.  I have no problem with you wanting to have as many sexual experiences as possible, I get that.  However, it’s immoral, again, to not be upfront with women right from the start.  That’s win/lose.  What goes around comes around.

129. AnnieC 129

     @96 

     Or you could just go on a few dates, get to know some-body and not stress about what “you” want long term? You could perhaps just enjoy each other’s company instead of both of you trying to determine how much you can get out of each other.

      

130. Tom 130

     @Selena
     I don’t mind getting the heat, although I think some women would be wiser to understand me rather than abuse me. Yes those are the grey areas but isn’t negotiating these grey areas the art of dating? Everyone needs to learn how to read peoples actions so as to attain their goals. I had to learn the hard way in my early 20’s (a lot less sex than I wanted and much rejection) how to read women and differentiate between different types of women to get what I want. But it didn’t make me bitter, it made me work harder to better myself and understand women better (ironically reading this blog helps me do this).
      
     @Fiona.
     Well one woman was a final year med. student who was too busy for anything serious. Another was planning on moving to Australia in 3 months and enjoyed my company until that point. Another was just out of a long-term relationship and used me as a rebound fling. Some of those women told me upfront what their motives were; others let me work it out for myself.
      
     @Margo
     I always use protection at all times allied with regular checkups. If I still picked up an STD I obviously couldn’t hide this from a prospective partner.
      
     @Ruby
     Yes I’ve been in that situation a few times before (one party wanting more than casual but not saying it). It might help to drop a hint, or to ask the casual party to family/friends event and see what they do. I avoid those situations if at all possible. I can see why women would be uncomfortable in this situation.
      
     @Sephor
     I’m not sure why some men are like this; I’ve often wondered it myself. I guess it’s just what makes me happy. One theory is it stems from the way testosterone affects the brain while the foetus is being formed which has lasting affects on the adult (index to ring finger ratio is one indicator of such men).

131. Margo 131

     Tom says: “@Margo, I always use protection at all times allied with regular checkups. If I still picked up an STD I obviously couldn’t hide this from a prospective partner.”

     Oh, yes you very well could hide an STD: dark lighting, strategically placed clothing, the woman has had a few drinks, etc…

     By the way, there are some STD’s that can be spread when you are asymptomatic (not currently having an outbreak) such as HERPES. With the way you are conducting your dating life, if you were responsible, and cared more about infecting innocent women than getting your rocks off, you would make it your business to be informed about such things.

132. Michael17 132

     Well, I would agree that the ethical thing for Tom to do would be to come right out and say that he is looking for something casual, IF women would come right out and say that they are still hung up on an ex or into someone more before they accept a first date. Or that they would offer to pay for their fair share of the date if they were already sure there wasn’t going to be a second. Just as many women are tired of sleeping with guys who won’t commit to them, many men are tired of wining and dining women who have no interest in them.
      
     Deal? Or do you feel instead that the guy should assume that the woman has other prospects and interests unless and until told otherwise, and that in the meanwhile, he should plan expensive dates accordingly?
      
     Seriously, you will NOT turn away the right guy if tell a guy that you don’t sleep with anyone unless your exclusive.

133. Michael17 133

     That said, I’m not sure how common the Toms of this world really are. And even if they are that common, you will NOT protect yourself by:
      
     (i) Coming across so guarded at the start of the first date. We’re in a public place, so you’re safe. Chill! Besides, the type of guy who is the most skilled at melting your icy facade is more likely to be a (oh no!) the player you were so concerned about.
      
     (ii) Writing off your date for things that only make him human while ignoring your own faults. Yes he was a little nervous but you showed up 15 minutes late.
      
     (iii) Making your decisions based on The Chemistry Thing. Just as life aint a porno flick, it aint your favorite rom-com either, ladies. Give it another date before you decide.

134. Goldie 134

     @ Michael17 #132 & 133, I like this. Good advice!
      
     Re #132 – this is exactly why I preferred to limit my first date to a snack and a drink, or a coffee and a stroll around the neighborhood. I’m kinda not down with the idea of paying my half for a dinner that I didn’t really want, didn’t ask for, and cannot afford, just because I didn’t like the guy. I’m cool with paying for my drink or my coffee.

135. Selena 135

     Goldie #134 – AMEN.

136. Margo 136

     Michael says: Well, I would agree that the ethical thing for Tom to do would be to come right out and say that he is looking for something casual, IF women would come right out and say that they are still hung up on an ex or into someone more before they accept a first date. Or that they would offer to pay for their fair share of the date if they were already sure there wasn’t going to be a second. Just as many women are tired of sleeping with guys who won’t commit to them, many men are tired of wining and dining women who have no interest in them.

     IF, Michael? IF?? Being an ethical human being doesn’t hinge upon what someone else does or doesn’t do. It’s about what YOU do.

     Goldie and Selena, I’m with you two.

137. Evan Marc Katz 137

     Michael’s point, Margo, is that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. And since there are double standards surrounding women and dating, it’s only logical that there will be double standards for men as well. Do you equally support eradicating those double standards? If not, you’re no different than most men – you want to change the “problems” with the opposite sex but have no desire to address the ways in which women silently lead men on.

138. Still-Looking 138

     Why are women more negative?  As a man I certainly have been “burned out” on dating and so have many of the men I know who date.  In my experience, women are more vocal about their emotions and also much more quick to throw in the towel.  As someone mentioned earlier, men are used to rejection and have learned to just move on to the next date if things don’t work out.

     Regarding Tom and his sexcapades — yes, some men are out on the prowl. Most men I know, however, don’t enter into a 3 month relationship in order to have sex.

     In the “Why don’t guys hate dating” blog I mentioned that sex is readily available.  I’ve had a number of women mention, in various ways, the “no sex until I’m in an exclusive relationship.”  This is invariably mentioned prior to or during the first date.  If I’m truly interested in the woman, it doesn’t affect me in any way — I’m willing to wait.

     I don’t keep stats but roughly 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 women I’ve gone out with are willing to have sex on a first or second date.  If I’m interested in pursuing a possible relationship, then we have sex.  If I’m not interested, we don’t.  

     Unlike many of the female posters on this blog, many of the women I meet (30-55) have no problem with casual sex outside of an exclusive relationship.  I’m very open & honest and very careful to never lead anyone into believing that she might be “the one.”  This often times leads to a casual relationship that might last several dates or a year.  I’ve never had an F-Buddy and I wouldn’t consider any of the women I see to be friend w/ benefits either.  We see it for exactly what it is — casual dating with no expectations beyond being great friends.  BTW – several of these friends have moved on to more permanent relationships but my friendship with these women has endured for several years (no sex once they have a boyfriend).

      

139. Margo 139

     Evan, using someone in any context is wrong. Even if that was Michael’s point, you can’t compare using someone for dinner to using someone for sex. Sex is a part of your body, emotions come into play. Although of value in our society, money is paper, an inanimate object.

140. Leesa 140

     hi tom
     i can’t remember where i read this in your comments but you said something to the effect of “guys like us are easy to spot – watch our actions and not our words”.  does that mean that you tell women what you think they need to hear in order to get sex from them but you don’t follow up with actions?  i’m still totally emotionally broken from experiencing a guy who told me everything he thought i needed to hear in order to use me for sex and an emotional crutch, until he found somebody he liked better and then he ditched me so fast, i have been devistatingly confused about it for over a year.
     so, i was wondering if you could be so kind as to enlighten me, first hand, as to the warning signs that would make a guy like you easy to spot – in your unique opinion. and how you think i can behave around a “wolf in sheeps clothing” to minimise him thinking that i am vulnerable and could be easily manipulated. i don’t want to behave outrightly hostile towards every guy i meet in order weed out the creeps but also the good guys. but i am finding that through my friendly disposition, i get alot of disgusting creeps approaching me - and i blame myself for soemthing i must be doing.  i am obviously as blind as a bat in this department.  some guys i talk to tell me that i could be tricked again but i wish to educate myself as best i can so as never to be used so ruthlessly ever again.  thank you in advance for your unique take on these things and your comments.

141. Margo 141

     For example, Evan, would you rather be raped or stolen from?

     Both are wrong, but one is far worse than the other. Aside from that, what percentage of women set up dates with men expressly for the purpose of getting a free meal? 1% of the population, maybe? I don’t know.

     However, contrast that with men like Tom who are constantly on the prowl for sex with the sole intent and purpose of deceiving so they can get sex. There are MANY more of the latter, and again, the intent is to deceive and it’s unconscionable.

     You cannot compare that to a woman that arrives at a restaurant, eats dinner because she was invited to do so, but doesn’t offer to pay half even though she knows she doesn’t want to see the guy again.

142. Leesa 142

     hi again tom
     i thought of another question. do you think that when you stop using women for sex at approximately age 35, do you think that you’ll be capable of a mogonomous relationship with the same women for the rest of  your life? or would you be more inclined to go for a women who you can have children with, but manipulate her into thinking that you are a loyal, loving, devoted guy who only has eyes for her – erring her into a false sense of security, so that you can bonk around with women who come your way on the side and not get caught (i.e. she wouldn’t suspect you’d be capable of that for a moment because of your skillful manipulation). so that you can have the best of both worlds (family and security and sex with new partners).  i ask you this because i found out that this cunningly cruel beast i experienced had done that with his ex-wife and then me.  or would you hook up with one women for a few years, always on the prowel for something better, and then trade up when you get the chance – so that as you get older and therefore have less choices for easy sex, you at least have a steady bonk for several years until you find something better and new and different and more exciting and so on?
     thanks for your comments in advance.

143. Evan Marc Katz 143

     Keep spending your life complaining about men who are sexual predators, Margo. You know what’ll happen? Nothing. My advice is to learn to think the best of men and you’ll see the best in them. Seems to me you only see the worst in them…and that’s exactly what you’re seeing in return.

144. Ruby 144

     Still Looking #138
      
     <<this often times leads to a casual relationship that might last several dates or a year.  I’ve never had an F-Buddy and I wouldn’t consider any of the women I see to be friend w/ benefits either.  We see it for exactly what it is — casual dating with no expectations beyond being great friends.>>
      
     So what is the difference between a casual relationship, a f-buddy, and a friend with benefit? Is this a question of semantics? They basically all sound the same to me. And if you are looking for a serious relationship, why would you stay in a casual one for as long as a year?

145. Michael17 145

     Margo: 

     (1) Getting used for free dinners, favors, and whatnot, actually feels really bad for a man. It’s less about the money lost and more about the disrespect. It’s hard to explain to a woman, just as it might be hard to explain to a guy how getting used for sex feels so bad for a woman.

     (2) Getting back to what you are saying about ethics. You’re fine as long as you don’t take by force or lead someone on. If a woman says yes to a first date, she is only saying that she is willing to explore a connection with him. She isn’t saying that she isn’t talking to anyone else. If that guy wants to take her to a fancy restaurant, that’s fine, but that’s on him. Just the same: If someone has sex with someone else early on, without any talk about “what you want” beforehand, then what basis do you have to go by to assume the other person wants a relationship? 

     (3) Women will go a long way to protecting themselves if they don’t have sex before exclusive. But whenever we deal with other people, there are no guarantees. You still might be used for sex (I am very sorry for your pain Leesa #140) just as a woman might divorce a man and take half of what he spent his whole life so far building up.

146. Michael17 146

     There’s no reason to believe Margo, that the number of women who “just want to date around for now” is any fewer (or greater) than the number of men who are “just looking for casual hookups”.  Meanwhile, don’t take women to Ruth’s Chris on an early date. And don’t sleep with a man until you actually talk about “where this is headed” and you are happy with what he has to say.
      
     Or that the number of women who are truly evil is any smaller (or larger) than the number of men who are truly evil. I’d like to believe that it’s only a small number though.
      

147. Bill 147

     As a man with many male friends this seems so obvious why do women make it so hard on themselves. The women who are constantly disappointed have very high expectations they rather date the man that is wanted by many women vs the ones with fewer selection. Most of these women refuse to date someone who they have less chemistry with but that means they have to participate in casual relationships with a man with higher chemistry. 

     At the end of the day i see so many happy women the question is why can’t you become of these women. The answer your are unwilling to have realistic expectations. 

148. Margo 148

     Bill says: ….just as a woman might divorce a man and take half of what he spent his whole life so far building up.

     BS, Bill! Doesn’t such a woman DESERVE half of what her husband has made? She cooked for him, she cleaned for him, she washed his dirty underwear AND sacrificed her own career to take care of his kids so they wouldn’t be stuck in daycare for 12 hours a day!

149. Selena 149

     @#144
     I like the word fling to describe non-serious relationships. It connotes temporary – which most casual situations turn out to be.

150. Michael17 150

     Margo #148: I think you mean me, NOT Bill.  

     We will have to agree to disagree here. (I’m talking about the case where she is leaving the marriage because she cheated, wanted someone more exciting, and so on.) They are her kids as well as his, and meanwhile, she was enjoying the lifestyle that he provided.

     Bill: Yes I agree with you that very often, not always but very often, women are the ones getting in their own way. It’s one reason why there is a PUA Community. Many men, especially those who are Nice Guys, are seeking help from the PUAs, hoping to learn how to develop “Chemistry” with a woman.
      

151. Tom 151

     Well I don’t really enter 3 month relationships just to have sex. As neither party declared what the situation was, technically there was no relationship. Though as Ruby says semantics perhaps?
     Besides I genuinely like these women, enough to keep seeing them, but not enough to rule out every other woman in the world! Also being ‘constantly on the prowl’ takes enormous energy and time.
      
     @Leesa
     Like Michael17 I am also sympathetic to your pain. The thought of leaving a woman distraught for over a year and distrustful of men actually horrifies me, especially a naturally friendly woman like you. Regarding what I say to women, my personal rule is to never lie or imply anything false; if you ask me direct I’ll be honest However, I suppose there is an element of saying what she wants to hear (on the first few nights anyway), i.e. if she likes art I’ll talk about art etc, but is that just putting your best foot forward? Some women get so carried away with what they think is such a ‘connection’ that they totally lose their senses and sleep with the guy quickly and then wonder what happened when it fizzles out. Simply not sleeping with a guy on the first or second night will ward off the worst of us; we’ll just move on.
      
     As regards my future you’ve perfectly summed up my dichotomy: what happens at 35 (or when I lose my hair)? The last thing I want to do is a Tiger Woods and destroy my family. I suppose I could mature and realise that there’s more to life than endless random bonking. Ideally I could do a Hugh Grant, remain single forever, but have my children and their mother nearby and well taken care of. Unfortunately I’m no movie star so that’s not gonna happen; I guess I’ll just have to see what happens!

152. henriette 152

     @Tom – I appreciate you coming here and writing truthfully about your feelings and experiences, especially since you “get bashed” by many posters as a result.  I feel terrible for women who have been lied to and told stories in order to get them into bed.  However, as Evan has told us again and again, he had plenty of first- and second-date sex back in his 20s and he never needed to lie to a woman to get her into bed. 
     I have some attractive brothers, male friends, etc.  Time and time again I see them go to bed after, say, the 3rd date with women who act like this is just a fun part of getting to know each other but then blow a fuse if, a few weeks later, the guy decides that he’s enjoyed time spent together but he’s figured out that she’s not “Ms Right” for him and he’d like to be on his way.   It’s all rage and melodrama: how could he have behaved like such a cad and slept with her if he wasn’t serious, blah blah blah.  The guy is left blinking, wondering, what just happened?  And I do think these women started having sex believing they could just enjoy it as part of the process but they get more emotionally attached, more quickly, than the men and that’s where it starts getting messy. 

153. Still-Looking 153

     Ruby @ 144
     You asked, “So what is the difference between a casual relationship, a f-buddy, and a friend with benefit? Is this a question of semantics? They basically all sound the same to me. And if you are looking for a serious relationship, why would you stay in a casual one for as long as a year?”

     I’m sure some will find the distinctions somewhat nebulous but here goes:  A FB, to me, is someone you see strictly for the purpose of sex.  No dinners, no movies, no real friendship — just a booty call.  A FWB is much closer to casual dating and harder to distinguish.  In my opinion, a FWB relationship is strictly friends with no emotional attachment and no real expectations.  In other words, someone who I might only see once every several weeks and never meet her family.  Casual dating to me involves a closer emotional bond yet we both realize that the relationship is casual and unlikely to progress further.

     Your second question is a good one.  Yes, I’m looking for a serious relationship and for that to happen I’m going to need to feel that she is “the one.”  The lady I’ve been seeing for almost a year is a good friend.  I’ve met her children, I’ve met most of her friends, and we have a great time together.  She’s not interested in a serious relationship with me or anyone else at this time.  I’m not interested in forming an exclusive relationship with her.  What we have is a fantastic open friendly relationship where we satisfy each other’s needs, both physical and emotional.  She knows I date quite a bit and I know she goes on occasional dates.  Some people might think it is a strange relationship but it works for us.

154. Margo 154

     Leesa says: “so, i was wondering if you could be so kind as to enlighten me, first hand, as to the warning signs that would make a guy like you easy to spot – in your unique opinion.”

     Leesa, a) There probably won’t be any fancy dinners because he needs to spread his money out among the sheer amount of women he’s trying to go through. So, he’ll probably only offer you a cup of coffee.

     b)When he walks through the door of the coffee house, the first thing you’ll notice is his hard-on.

155. leto 155

     @ Fiona #25. i agree. i agree.
     i used to read marc’s blog with a lot of interest but have finally discovered is sugar-coated hypocrisy.

156. Evan Marc Katz 156

     @Leto – The name’s Evan. Goodbye and good luck.

157. Ruby 157

     Still-Looking #153
      
     And you are certain that if either one of you met someone else, there would be no hard feelings on either side, even after a year? I’m also wondering how often you see each other. If you have a great time together, what is missing? No criticism here, just genuinely curious.

158. Still-Looking 158

     Ruby @ 157 -
     I’m certain that I wouldn’t have any hard feelings if/when she finds someone.  I have several friends that I dated for various lengths of time.  One is now engaged, another is living with her boyfriend, and one is unattached.  I speak to two of them at least once a week and the one who is engaged called me for advice and a shoulder to cry on when her relationship started to go south.  My relationship with all three is and will continue to be platonic.  The fact that a romantic relationship didn’t continue to develop is no bar to allowing a lifetime friendship to develop.  

     Regarding the lady I’ve been seeing for a year — we usually go out once a week and we talk/text several days a week.  Yes, we do have a great time together but for various reasons, she’s not the one.  The other three women I mentioned above are also wonderful ladies who I always have a great time with.  If I was anxious to be in a long-term relationship, any one of the four would be a great choice.  Maybe I’m afraid of commitment, maybe I’m searching for perfection…. I’m not really sure what the problem is or if there is a problem.  I’m quite content with the way my life is right now so I guess for the immediate future I’ll just continue looking and enjoying each and every new day, experience, and friendship that develops. 

159. Margo 159

     Still-Looking, you didn’t answer the question as to whether the woman you’re having sex with would be ok with it if you found someone else.

160. Ruby 160

     Still-Looking#158

     <>

     To me, a year and counting IS a long-term relationship. You’re getting sex and fun once a week with zero pressure to commit, so why change anything?

161. Still-Looking 161

     Margo @ 159 – We are completely open and honest with each other and she knows I date other women. I plan on maintaining a platonic relationship, if and when I find someone else so the sex will end but the emotional support will always be there. I can only speculate but I believe she will have mixed feelings — happy for me and yet sad that the relationship has changed.
     Ruby @160 – She’s getting the exact same thing and both of us are happy with the current arrangement so there really is no need, at this time, to change anything.

162. Leesa 162

     margo, i don’t know your story but you sound like you’ve really been hurt and you’re not over the pain yet. i remember commenting on evan’s blog a couple of months ago and really telling it how i saw it, which was ugly, because of the pain i was suffering over being used for sex and as an emotional crutch. there are alot of creepy, sleezy, self centered bastards out there who don’t care about how they treat women and how they affect them once they’ve used them for sex. but all of my closest friends are males and all but one, aren’t like that. they are loyal, and loving and devoted and they wouldn’t cheat on their wives/girlfriends. since the end of that terribe bastard i experienced a year ago, i have met several men whom have had women lie and cheat on them and piss off on them with another man. one guy cried for 9 months, another for 6 months. the 6 month one was heartbroken for years. another one of my male friends was also heartbroken over a women he couldn’t be with, and suffered badly for over a year after the break up and didn’t have another relationship or women for about 5 years. and it’s not because he couldn’t get one. and another one of my male friends who is 39 and really hot, was totally in love with a women who was 43. she ended up just shitting all over him. i know him well and am confident that he would have never cheated on her. he had been in love with her for about 5 years before he tried to persue her and had only a handful of women in that 5 years but always felt that she was the one. so for all the ruthless bastards who use women for sex and go through them like toilet paper, there are a few men who really do love and suffer like us women. for me, if i meet a guy, i now try to establish how they are wired in their brains regarding their attitutes towards women and relationships and their general respect for people and their degree of honesty. the truth is ugly in that alot of guys i meet are totally disrespecful and sleezy but i just remind myself of all my good male friends and the ones i’ve met who are loyal and devoted. since being used and abused i’m also more aware of how i behave towards others. respect and honesty toward all men, whether they are sleezy or not, is something i try to live by now.

163. Fiona 163

     @155Leto @156Evan since writing 25 I have been following some of this advice and it does seem to work whereas what I was doing before wasn’t working.

     My main take away is that the dating world is what it is and as we can’t change men all we can do is to learn to navigate it better.

     In the UK we have reached a point where things have never been so easy for men. Sex has become so easy to get (not from me by the way) that a lot of men don’t think about commitment at all until their mid to late 30s if they ever do while women the same age have been through hell looking for commitment. We haven’t dealt with it too well as we grew up with the same commitment oriented expectations as our mothers i.e. Free love exists so you might date a few people before you meet The One but we will still be married before we get out of our 20s.

     I can’t change any of that. I have been lost in this town where the streets have all changed using an old map. I don’t like the new town layout much but at least I am finding my way around a bit better with a newer map and will hopefully finally end up at my destination.

164. AnnieC 164

     @Margo

     You seem like a person who takes no responsibility for your choices.

     It is really very simple. A man cannot use you, unless you let him. You aren’t a victim of a man’s choices, you are a victim of your own choices.

     You must be strong enough to be yourself. The “toms” of the world can’t get by me, not because I”m defensive, but because I know what I want, I wait and I’m not offended when such a man leaves. He doesn’t want me, for anything other than a fling. Okay..that’s what he wants. Really not my problem.

     I only go for the men, who show me they want a loving relationship.

     Stop being such a victim and start owning your choices, instead of reacting to the behaviour of men.

     @151

     You don’t have a bad attitude at all. You are choosing what you want, and women are choosing what they want.

     If what they wanted, was different than how they behaved, it isn’t your problem.

     If you outright lie, I would say yeah, you are a bit of an arse. However you are being quite honest.

     My current partner, sometimes listens to my chit-chat, because he knows it makes me feel good. He’s not alway’s interested, but if I feel good about him, then fun times will evolve.

     I accept it. And I thank him for showing me he cares. He’s not all about himself, he just hopes for some sexy times.

     As I said before, women need to let go of the pity party, and start having respect for their decisions, instead of living in reaction to men.

     You can’t control that, nor are you responsible. Just don’t outright lie and your moral compass is clear imo.

165. AnnieC 165

     @148

     Nonsense. Unless a woman gave up a career, that had similar earning power as her husbands career, then no she does not deserve half.

     My mother had a teachers salary. My father was a pilot, then became a lawyer. They are still together, and even my father say’s “yes he’ll take 1/2″ if they divorced(They never will). After 45 years, I’d almost agree.

     But way to many women “without careers” , and “without high earning power” who deliberately give up their jobs because the “want” to raise their babies, use this as an excuse to strip a man of his earning power simply because the courts allow the women to do so. It is completely unfair.

     Unless you had an awesome career, and truly sacrificed it, then no, you don’t get 1/2. Mostly it’s a just a woman who doesn’t want to lose the lifestyle given to her, that she was never willing to earn. She never wanted a career. She wanted babies.

     Feminist entitled nonsense.

166. Fiona 166

     @AnnieC 148 – you seem to forget that staying at home and bringing up children is making a valuable contribution to a marriage and is by no means necessarily an easy lifestyle option either but often hard work. Not really sure what this has to do with women being more negative about dating than men either. I can see how it might worry an ageing millionaire if he marries a playboy bunny but I doubt that the professional women that read this blog are really aiming to marry a man with a view to an easy lifestyle of changing diapers for a few years before running off with his money.

167. Jadafisk 167

     AnnieC – You realize that while modern American women benefit from feminism, that only a minority of them are or ever were at any point in history actually feminists, right? The hypocrisy that many people complain about is actually diversity of opinion (women fill America’s churches – bastions of cultural traditionalism – as well as its universities), varying levels of apathy (most people aren’t very political either way) and just attempts to get by with varying levels of success in a world that doesn’t always provide solutions that are in line with the values and precepts that people find ideal.

168. Margo 168

     Annie C #165: “Unless you had an awesome career, and truly sacrificed it, then no, you don’t get 1/2. Mostly it’s a just a woman who doesn’t want to lose the lifestyle given to her, that she was never willing to earn. She never wanted a career. She wanted babies.

     Feminist entitled nonsense.”

     It doesn’t matter, Annie. When “babies” come along, you can’t send them back. If a woman stays home with the children, what matters is that she cannot have a career, whether she wants one or not. Her career has now become raising her and the man’s children. For that, she needs to be compensated should there be a divorce. And since she could not work, her career choices will be limited, which will hamper her ability to have the lifestyle that she shared with her husband during the marriage.

     And as far as daycare goes, again, it’s perfectly reasonable, and even commendable for one or both parents to not want their children raised in a daycare because being raised by a parent is always best.

169. AnnieC 169

     @166

     You didn’t address my point. A lot of women don’t WANT to work, and yet act as though they are sacrificing, when in fact they are doing exactly what they want to and sacrificing nothing. They expect something for nothing.

     They aren’t even willing to go out and work and earn the big bucks, so their husbands can get a break, and spend some time raising their kids.

     These women are mostly full of it. They haven’t sacrificed anything, so they therefore don’t deserve 1/2.

170. Fiona 170

     @169 Annie C we are way off the point about women being more negative about dating than men here. Your point seems to try to address rather why some men are more negative about marriage than women. This is also making me wonder why some women are so negative about other women.

     In any event the law (at least in the UK) recognises that bringing up children is as important and valuable contribution to a marriage as bringing in an income. The reason for this is that in previous generations there was little or no child care and therefore someone had to stay at home to look after the children. That person was usually the woman (partly because women didn’t get equal pay here until the late 70s so it would have made no sense the other way). If that couple now get divorced the courts will look at the contributions made to the marriage, both the financial contribution and the contribution to the home and try to make a reasonable division of assets in the circumstances of the case so that the person who brought up the kids and looked after the house is not left destitute.
     They also look at factors such as the length of the marriage and the future earning capacity of the person who stayed at home to look after the children.

     I have no doubt that there are some women who would rather be at home bringing up their children than out working and that there are some men who would rather be out working than at home looking after the children and vice versa. It really is up to each couple to decide what works best for them in dividing up earning responsibility and child care according to their circumstances. They do however need to have respect for each other and the value of the roles they have agreed because assets are likely to be divided up if there is a divorce later no matter who is the higher earner.

171. Goldie 171

     @Annie #169, that’s some pretty odd logic. Because they’re doing what they want, even if it’s hard work that pays off and saves the family money (good preschools, let alone nannies, aren’t cheap…), they don’t deserve to be compensated for that? By this logic, if I like my job, I don’t deserve a paycheck. Also, even assuming the mother doesn’t deserve to be paid, what about the kids? In this situation, they’ll either be broke (because their mother now is), or they will lose their mother, because she’s broke and as such doesn’t deserve custody. I have never been a stay-at-home mother by choice, the child support I receive right now is pretty nominal, and we’ve always made about the same amounts, kept our finances separate and contributed equal shares towards family finances, and I still disagree with what you’re saying.

172. Ruby 172

     AnnieC #169

     <>

     Since when is staying home and raising kids not work, and “nothing”? Even if a woman’s life ambition is to stay home and raise kids, she is giving up a paying job, and relying on her husband’s financial support to do so. Nannies, daycare, cleaning people and the like, are not free. Also, as Jadafisk said, many of the women who would prefer to stay home with their kids are far from feminists.

173. Margo 173

     Annie @169: “You didn’t address my point. A lot of women don’t WANT to work, and yet act as though they are sacrificing, when in fact they are doing exactly what they want to and sacrificing nothing. They expect something for nothing.

     They aren’t even willing to go out and work and earn the big bucks, so their husbands can get a break, and spend some time raising their kids.

     These women are mostly full of it. They haven’t sacrificed anything, so they therefore don’t deserve 1/2.”

     It doesn’t matter. Even if the women in question never wanted to work, the fact that they devoted their time to raising the children from the marriage means they deserve half.

174. AnnieC 174

     @ .. well a few of you.

     If both parents want to stay at home and raise the kids, some-one is sacrificing their desires, to provide for the family. The other parent, is sacrificing nothing.

     That does not equate to half. If you want the privaledge of some-one taking care of you then don’t expect additional privaledges like 1/2 of their financial wealth.

     @170

     I agree with you that people need to figure out before they get married what they are willing to do. Unfortunately way too many women change their minds, or lie about it. You think I’m angry towards women? No, I’m angry towards that which is unjust.

     How many men have I heard complain that they have no intimacy in their marriages, their wives do no housework, rack up massive debt, and constantly complain? This phenomone is very real, and it is incredibly unfair to men.

     They didn’t sign up for an entitled female who just wanted to “make babies” and not actually be a part of a relationship.

     This is happening more and more, and it is female entitlement.

     The world has changed. If women want financial means, they they should go out and work for it. If they stay at home a few years, then they can alway’s work later on in life. The women I’m talking about are choosing to have babies(regardless of the mans choice) they choose to stay home and they choose to never go back to work, “regardless of what their husbands want” in many circumstances and that is the problem.

     I’m no longer in support of a 50/50 split by default for this reason.

     To put it another way, for the women who claim they are sacrificing everything by raising the kids, if the husband said “Sure honey, that sucks, I’ll give up my career so you can have yours , therefore I’ll take care of the babies while you bring home the bacon”..how many of these sacrificing women do you think will actually take him up on the offer? Very few.

175. Helen 175

     AnnieC, judging from your comments, I would guess that you don’t have the slightest bit of firsthand experience in raising children.

     You clearly want to defend men, and none of us have a problem with that. We like men too. But defending men doesn’t mean that you have to be hostile to women: to talk about how selfish or entitled or unfair we are or to “pull our heads out of our butts.” It’s not an either/or proposition; nor are your comments true in the general, as any of us who have children or have ever been divorced can attest to. I’m sure even the men would not want to be defended in such a way, if it meant jabs were being thrown at women.

176. Margo 176

     AnnieC, do you have a son or brother who was taken to the cleaners in a divorce?

177. SalsaQ 177

     My brother and his (now ex) wife talked about how both of them would need careers to put their then future kids through school because he was going to be a professor or teacher. They had this conversation early in their relationship, again before they married and again before they started their family. The understanding was she would stay home, obviously, for a while. Well, she never got around to looking for work and bought into a few home run franchise businesses, but never followed through on any them.

     He gave up on teaching to move into a more lucrative position, but they were up to their necks in debt.

     As the financial stress began to take a toll on their marriage she began snooping through his email. He responded in a kind and found one from her to a friend that said “I always told Mike that I would have a career, but I never intended to go back to work once I had a child. Maybe buying this franchise will keep him off of my back for a while.”

     Needless to say, they got divorced, but not before he gave up his lifelong dream.

     Does that mean all women are liars about serious topics that completely upend their partner’s vision for their future? No more than all men are cheaters. But to assume there are not stories like this out there that might make some men cautious and paranoid is naive.

     I have a friend whose wife left work when their son turned 4 “for just a few years before his child hood ended.” It is 10 years later. He still does half the cooking, half the laundry, they have a cleaning service, etc. If they divorce, does she deserve half?

178. Margo 178

     SalsaQ, if she’s taking of his child she does. In fact, the man in question has chosen to take care of this woman. Therefore, if they divorce she should get half of the marital assets. They are in this together. If he doesn’t want to keep paying for her and having her end up with more and more, why is he still married ot her? His choice, Salsa.

179. AnnieC 179

     @175

     Helen, I realize that not “all women” are like that. But there are plenty that are, and there is a lot of entitlement floating around on this forum.

     Yes, those women who behave in certain way’s, need to pull their heads out of their butts, and start being accountable. I am not hostile to “women” helen. As I explained I am making a call at people who have no sense of justice, and every sense of entitlement.

     And you really aren’t addressing my points, it seems you are trying to deflect.

     I have met many men, who desperately need women to take “jabs” at other women, when they are behaving in a way that is destructive to not only the men’s lives, but to their childrens also and ultimately society. It’s a matter of asking for accountability.

     Mention women are negative, and you get rape statistics. Mention men suffer and you get all kinds of excuses.

     Women can simply do better than this.

     @176

     No, I don’t have brother or relatives that have been through it.
     @177

     Thank you. That is the reality of what is happening.

     No she does not deserve 1/2.

180. Ruby 180

     #179

     <>

     Well, you completely deflected my earlier post about the large number of women who experience domestic violence, or the fact that “one in five young women have been sexually assaulted while they’re in college.” You don’t think that might make some women a bit negative? Right, you don’t. Also, something doesn’t necessarily have to happen to me personally, for me to be offended by it.

     On top of that, you refer to raising a child as not working, not being “part of a relationship”, and doing “nothing.” Sorry, but you do come off as hostile towards women.

     <>

     I don’t get the logic of this.

181. Ruby 181

     #179

     ….I have met many men, who desperately need women to take “jabs” at other women, when they are behaving in a way that is destructive to not only the men’s lives, but to their childrens also and ultimately society. It’s a matter of asking for accountability…..

     Your quote was omitted from my previous post. This is the statement I don’t get the logic of.

182. Karl R 182

     Ruby asked: (#180)
     “the fact that ‘one in five young women have been sexually assaulted while they’re in college.’ You don’t think that might make some women a bit negative?”

     I have dated at least three women who have been raped. Probably more than that (based on statistical averages), but three women confided in me about it.

     None of these women were negative about dating in general. None of them were negative about men in general. None of them treated me like I was a potential rapist. It’s clearly possible to meet the worst men, without letting it color your opinion of all men.

     More importantly, negativity is counterproductive to dating. Whenever I met a woman who was suspicious, guarded, negative or hostile, I assumed she was not interested and moved on. That first impression kills her chances with any socially-aware man … regardless of how justified her attitude may be.

183. Margo 183

     Annie, other than a brother or son, has any man you’re close to (e.g. relative, current husband, friend) been taken to the cleaners?

184. Ruby 184

     Karl R

     It’s not an either/or situation. You can be angry about domestic violence or date rape, and be cautious, and still like most men and want to date them.

185. AnnieC 185

     @180

     How did I deflect Ruby? Yes there are women who are assulted, I agree.

     Doesn’t change the fact that women are responsible for their attitudes. It isn’t the next man who comes alongs’ fault, that a previous man assulted a woman. If a woman is so damaged by it, as terrible as it is, she needs to get help before dating.

     We are responsible for our own emotional state and our own attitudes. And until people recognize that, no matter what has happened to them, or others then your dating life won’t change.

     And stop putting words into my mouth(IE me not seeing raising a child as working), it gets tiring. Read what I’ve said(All of it), not what you “imagine” I’ve said. Otherwise, why bother replying?

     @183

     I know around 5 men, who are close to me, and many men who are part of men’s movements who are trying to change the status quo who have been brutalized through divorce, and/or abusive relationships with entitled women.

     When kids are involved they are severly traumitised by these women.

     I don’t have a great deal of tolerance or respect for people with entitlement problems. They cause a lot of damage when they don’t get what they want and then play the victim.

     Look up Cluster B’s and marriage(Or personality disorders and marriage).

186. Jadafisk 186

     The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of women who take off of work to raise kids have to return in short order, anyway. It’s exceedingly rare to see a household where one able bodied adult partner can afford to stay home for 10-18 years without large sacrifices being made that involve barely skirting poverty. Women generally don’t expect it, and men generally don’t request it because virtually no one can afford it. In the event that it does occur, it’s a career/job killer for whoever decides to stay home, and for that reason may linger on as the children get older and “voluntarily jobless” becomes “unemployable”. Businesspeople aren’t that keen on hiring “family people” because they know there’s not even the semblance of pretense. If you took off work for 4-5 years to nurse a dying/ill relative or to raise a child, that’s considered a demerit and a conflict of interest. There are also more practical considerations – if your career was in a fast-paced tech sector field, you may indeed have obsolete skills/ experience/certification. That scenario is what the 50/50 split is there for, and it’s not common enough in this era that it should be considered the default, but it’s devastating when it occurs. For that reason, I contend that a couple should have that scenario discussed, documented and legally accounted for beforehand so a stay at home wife with a well to do husband can have the type of special protections she would need in the event of a divorce. Everyone else should be able to keep what they earned, and that should be the default.

     Both parties should consider the large financial risk they’re taking when deciding if they want to have a stereotypically 50s era – not traditional, traditionally everyone worked, even the kids – home. But note that this is an option that very few people will ever have to begin with, and they know that going in.

187. Joe 187

     @ Goldie #117:

     It sounds to me like you’re a little less casually-invested in those friendships than those guys. Maybe you should do a little turnabout: make “casual” plans to hang out with one of them, then back out at the last minute. Obviously you should have your own alternate plans.

     FTR, I hate last-minute cancellations, and unless a total emergency comes up I never do them.

188. Ruby 188

     AnnieC #185

     I’ve read your posts, but I think I’m done reading them now. Hard to “put words in (your) mouth” when I am picking up direct quotes.

     Look up “male-identified female.”

     Jadafisk #186

     Yes, well said.

189. Evan Marc Katz 189

     FWIW, I’m with Annie. Instead of reflexively siding with women on each and every issue, she’s giving equal weight to the experiences and considerations of men. Everyone should consider looking at the world through the prism of the opposite gender instead of merely your own.

     Believe me, every woman who complains about men has a right to complain – and I hear you loud and clear. But telling you what you already know (men are bad!) is useless. Giving you a balanced perspective on how good men see things should be invaluable to you. Annie’s probably a good girlfriend because she attempts to understand men instead of demonizing them.

190. Ruby 190

     EMK #189

     The original title of this post is “Why are women more negative about dating than men?”. I said earlier that I think both sexes can have negative attitudes. Women also have the added threat of physical safety to worry about, which happens much more frequently to women than to men. Nonetheless, this doesn’t mean that women can’t let down their guard around men, or have relationships with the any of the men who are good guys, or are “demonizing” all men.

191. Fiona 191

     Evan @189 Turning men into angels and women into demons is just as bad and not very balanced.

192. Evan Marc Katz 192

     Show me where I said that men were angels and women were demons and you have a point, Fiona. Until then, you’re just throwing stones.

193. Helen 193

     Evan 189: “Annie [is] giving equal weight to the experiences and considerations of men.”

     Surely you’re not serious? She is bending over backwards being accommodating to men on this thread (do a search on all of her entries here), while making confrontational, exaggerated (e.g., “nuclear waste”), inaccurate (portrayal of motherhood), rude, and occasionally cruel comments to and about women. Going too far in the other direction is not giving “equal weight.” It comes dangerously close to pandering (and possible self- or gender-loathing).

     I mostly agree with Ruby about “male-identified female,” except that most men are not this hostile toward women. Yes, most men are good. That is no reason to shame and scold women. Good grief.

194. Evan Marc Katz 194

     @Helen – “Good grief” is what I say any time a woman insults me or “men” on here. I would think that you would be able to handle it as well. Similarly, I’d think you’d be able to separate what Annie said (wise), from how she said it (somewhat harsh and unyielding). I find value in the fact that she’s one of the few women who dares to cross the bounds of sisterhood and give any weight to the male perspective. Is she a relationship coach? No. But, to me, her perspective is far more valuable than an entire gaggle of man-haters.

195. Nathan 195

     I still think Annie is overly downplaying the role of cultural/social ills here, which is one of the main reasons she is getting flack. However, if you set that to the side for now, it’s really hard to argue with the idea that each of us is ultimately responsible for our attitude and emotional state. Blaming men for your dating problems won’t actually help address sexism and other gender related challenges. True change makers are not victims

196. Nathan 196

     And just as true change makers are not invested in victimhood, neither are those and healthy long lasting relationships.

197. Helen 197

     Evan, who is this “entire gaggle of man-haters”? Not the women who have been posting here. With the exception of one person who in another thread wrote very long anti-male comments, we are positive about men. MANY women have given weight to the male perspective; we just do it in a way that doesn’t involve hating on our own sex.

     Good, we’re in agreement, we say “good grief” for the same reasons – when we’re insulted. Annie insulted women just as others have insulted you unfairly in the past. It is equally valid, not that there should be any rule for when to use a term.

198. Fiona 198

     Evan @191 you agree with Annie C is surely sufficient. Look back at the vindictive comments made. I doubt any this women has a single female friend. In fact I doubt this is a woman at all. As I lawyer I can see both sides of any case. Shame on you that you can’t!

     I am not throwing any stones at anyone Evan. I was a potentiall client empahsis on the “was”. If I want to be abused by a man I can go to a bar. Thanks!

199. Selena 199

     “Gaggle of man-haters”? Good grief indeed.

     As a long time reader of this blog I’ve read lot’s of articulate posts written by people of both genders who, it seems, have a great need to release their personal biases, pet peeves, experience and/or fantasy-based ideologies on the unsuspecting internet public. LOT’S.

     Which is why I worship the scroll feature computers come with.

200. Helen 200

     Fiona: she probably IS a woman, but a “male-identified female,” exactly as Ruby said earlier. Ruby: you were right. I hadn’t heard of that term before, so looked it up, and it is a perfect description of what we have seen of her comments on this thread. Especially the part about blaming feminism for women choosing to stay home with their kids:

     http://aloftyexistence.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/male-identified-woman/

201. Helen 201

     Evan: I would like to redact my most recent comment (which fortunately isn’t published yet). The website to which I linked is more harsh than justified, even if some of the bullet points do seem to describe the commenter in question here. Thank you.

202. AnnieC 202

     @ Ladies,

     Why don’t you stop trying to put some kind of ulterior motive, or “condition” onto me, and actually think about what I’ve said. If you don’t like the delivery find, ignore it. I’m not “hostile” towards women in general, nor am I a male-identified woman, nor am I male. I am not self-loathing or any other “theory” you would like to come up with. It is just another example, of making excuses, instead of addressing what is being said to you.

     I’m a female, who is in a LTR with a man who has as little tolerance as I do for people who play victim, and do not take responsibility for what they do and what their attitudes are. Both males, and females.

     @183

     No I am not bending over backwards to accomodate men. But I can see constantly on this blog, the mentality of giving men some understanding and respect and being more positive about them is “seen” as bending over backward.That reminds me of what my mother used to say, being kind to my father was just “pandering to his ego”. Just nonsense.

     @197

     Many women say they don’t hate men, but unfortunately they seriously don’t like them very much. If they did, they would be just as focused on the feelings of the Men they claim to want to date, instead of expecting men to constantly focus on the womans wants or feelings.

     And for those of you who think I am “insulting women”. There are some women out there, who deserve to be raked across the coals and I gave examples of those. Just like there are men who are the same.

     And I never blamed “feminism” for women staying at home and raising kids. Another example, of inventing an argument to make a point.

203. AnnieC 203

     @Evan

     Thanks for your comments. I’ve re-read what I’ve written and yes I can see some of it is harsh. It is also true.

     There’s a reason I’m not a dating coach

204. Selena 204

     Re: #200

     Interesting article. Glad EMK allowed the link to be posted.

205. Ruby 205

     AnnieC #202

     “And I never blamed “feminism” for women staying at home and raising kids. Another example, of inventing an argument to make a point.”

     AnnieC #165

     “Unless you had an awesome career, and truly sacrificed it, then no, you don’t get 1/2. Mostly it’s a just a woman who doesn’t want to lose the lifestyle given to her, that she was never willing to earn. She never wanted a career. She wanted babies.

     Feminist entitled nonsense.”

     So, really?

206. Selena 206

     Annie,
     Did you read the article linked to in #200?

     Reaction?

207. Karl R 207

     Selena said: (#206)
     “Did you read the article linked to in #200?
     Reaction?”

     I read the article. I also noticed that the author of the article, Alee, describes herself as “an idealistic and passionate biologist and student.” Alee further stated, “This blog is a record of my research, thoughts, and interests.”

     I see nothing to indicate that Alee has particular expertise in psychology, sociology, or that this article was a reflection of research, rather than her thoughts.

208. Ruby 208

     KarlR

     I’ve never read the blog in question before, but the term, “male-identified” goes back to the early days of the feminist movement. The blog writer did not originate it.

209. AnnieC 209

     @205

     Where in the statement you are quoting have I blamed feminism for women wanting to stay home? You just quoted me, and it’s in plain english and that’s not what I’ve said. Incredible. Lol!!

     I’m blaming feminism for women believing they are sacrificing a career, and therefore deserve 1/2 when they never wanted a career in the first place, nor have ever had the earning power of their husbands.

     Stop putting words into my mouth ruby, I meant exactly what I said. If you continue to misinterpret what people say, you are going to spend a whole lot of time, being angry over nothing.

210. Ruby 210

     AnnieC #209

     “Where in the statement you are quoting have I blamed feminism for women wanting to stay home?”

     Re-read. You’re saying that feminism is telling them they’re entitled to half their husband’s earnings if they stay at home raising kids.

211. AnnieC 211

     @210

     Not quite Ruby, but you are getting closer. Re-read it again. All of it.

212. Michael17 212

     Well, something that hasn’t been touched upon much is that women seem to expect more from men than vice-versa. For example, women expect men to pay for them. Also, if a first date doesn’t go great, a woman is likely to blame the man, while the man is likely to blame himself. This despite the fact that the woman is usually the more guarded one. (Yes I am aware of the studies that say how when things go wrong men blame others while women blame themselves, but dating is the one area where it falls on the man to “make things happen”.)

     We men basically just want you to look nice and be interested in us. That simple.

213. Markie Mark 213

     I agree there’s a lot of negativity out there. I’ve looked at maybe thousands of profiles.

     After awhile, I think, you become an expert at reading between the lines. And sometimes you don’t even have to because it’s ALL IN CAPS

     I just click next on the negative ones. DO I get negative, sure. Do I put that  negativity in my profile HELL NO and I NEVER will.

     If I am that frustrated I need to take a break from dating and get my head together. If your’e out there and frustrated you’re not gonna make a good date period.

     Happiness and Fun attracts Happiness and Fun, period!!! 

214. Markie Mark 214

     P.S. Sometimes just being nice goes a long way (sometimes not).

     I was harassed by a woman who berated me for my age range “preference” 35-50. She was 51.

     Even though she was a little nasty I  still responded nicely, positively.

     I told her that my criteria was not carved in stone and that I would date someone over 50 if I was attracted to them.

     She thanked me for being so nice and responding “even though she was being a pain in the ass”.

     Remember you get more flies with honey….. 

215. Sammi 215

     I am an attractive, well liked, open minded female and I am through with men. I have been in relationships where I thought everything was fine and the men were happy and had no complaints, but another woman flirts witht them and they cheat – men are so weak !!!
     No man can be trusted not to cheat – none of them. Each time this happens, they beg to get back with me and by then I have no feelings left for them. They don’t understand how hurtful it is to be cheated on. Men might think of sex as a hand shake, but to a woman it is the ultimate in intimacy. The women who think of it as nothing more are loose goose women and go with every man around – men are blinded by this, but out of stupidity, they fall for it. I trust no man.
     When will they learn that the grass is not greener on the other side.

216. @Sammi215 216

     You wish for men to understand that the grass is not always greener belies your assertion that you are done with men.
      
     You are smarting and hurting, but you are adding to the hurt with the internal dissonance of both wanting to be with someone and also vowing never to be with anyone again to avoid the pain you have experienced. You can’t have it both ways. As long as you hang onto both sides, you will be unhappy.

     Your other choice is to resolve the conflict. Remind yourself that you have not dated every man out there, so you can’t know that they all will cheat (and the fact is that many don’t. You just have not dated one yet, apparently). Look for one with integrity. Your other choice is to completely let go of wanting to date. This means being content and happy at the prospect of a single life. People do walk this path too.
      
     The men in your past have hurt you. Leave them in your past. Where you are now, you are hurting yourself. Stop.  You deserve better, especially from yourself.

217. Bane 217

     To answer the question:  Because these women are the losers of the dating game.  They want “alpha”, they ain’t “alpha” and they sure as hell won’t be willing to settle with anything less, despite their shortcomings (which are, as evident from this website, ubiquitous).
     I certainly can’t muster any pity for them.  If these women want better, they need to have something to offer other than their bodies.  If they are unwilling to do this well, too bad.  Sucks for them.

218. ninjaspinster 218

     The reason women are negative about men is really quite simple. Men suck. The end.

     I was raped by a man who I thought was my friend. I suppose he thought he was “correctively raping” me or something. 

     I have my own business and it is quite successful. I would not want to be scrwed out of it by getting married.

     My mom got royally screwed over in her divorce and I never EVER want to go through the trauma that I watched her endure.

     Also, did you know that the SLPC explicitly states that those MRA wackjobs are actually a hate cult no better than the kkk?            

219. Georgia 219

     They’re not although they’re probably negative about different things. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve seen or heard a man whining about how women don’t want “nice guys” or how they’ve been stuck in the “friendzone”. For some reason these men think that because they’ve hung around a woman for a while and treated her semi-reasonably that she should magically realise that he’s into her (usually the man doesn’t actually ask her out) and have sex with him (because obviously he’s entitled to sex just for not being completely horrible to her). When the woman fails to realise that he’s not just being a friend (or does realise but isn’t interested) he then rants about her to all his friends, her friends and the internet about the fact that she’ll be sorry later when she gets sick of the “bad boys” and wants a “nice guy” but he won’t be around then (because apparently he’s the only nice guy in existence.)
     It’s amazing the way otherwise reasonable men become really nasty just because someone exercisers their right not to date/have sex with them.

220. marymary 220

     It may be that women:
     1. start fantasizing the future even before the first date, and are disproportionately disappointed if it doesn’t work out
     2. believe all the blowing hot that men can do when they’re excited about her in the beginning
     3. take it very personally when it doesn’t work out and start jumping through hoops to make it work
     4. expect him to do x, y, z when the man doesn’t have a clue she has these expectations
     5. expect him to pay for the sins of her exes
     6. pick men for superficial reasons (height, money, looks, charm) and fail to believe that such a tall, rich, good looking man can also not be a decent person (and no, I’m not dissing tall rich, good looking men but it doesn’t give him a free pass)
     7. date before they are over the ex and wonder why every new man is a disappointment
     8. look down on men who are nice to them
     9. look up to men who aren’t
     10. have sex with someone they barely know

     ninjasister
     I have two brothers who are darlings, to their wives and to me. That helped me keep the faith after a relationship that landed me in hospital. Twice. What was I thinking?

221. Mickey 221

     @ninjaspinster:

     I’m sorry for your bad experience. That said, I’m sure that there has never been a woman who’s taken a guy for everything he’s worth, or never lets him see his kids after a divorce, or automatically assumes the worst about a guy just because he is one.  

222. Y 222

     “I think this is the big one. Men understand that rejection is part of the process. ”
     I think men get this part but what so many men are so p*ssed off with these days is so many of these women having this convoluted idea that some effin where out there if they tell every effin man NOOOOOOO that there is this “perfect” absolutely “perfect” GUY, JUST THIS “PERFECT” guy just waiting and if they continue to say NO to every guy there is somehow supposed to be this “perfect” guy that’s going to waltz in whisk her away blah blah blah. IT DOESNT EFFIN EXISIT, LADIES THAT FANTASY IS JUST THAT A EFFIN FANTASY!! THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO WORD IT OTHER THAN TO EFFIN SCREAM IT INTO YOUR HEADS THAT THERE IS NOOOOOO “PERFECT” OF ANY KIND. NO “PERFECT” GUY, IT DOESN’T EXISIT!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s what p*sses so many men off is so many women these days either getting all kinds of these DIVORCES cause they are “BORED” or when something gets the tinniest bit difficult in the relationship or marriage the want to run and instant divorce, just divorce divorce divorce. On top of that somehow a lot of women think DIVORCE is somehow “cool”. WTF, seriously WTF is WRONG with you women that think like that????????? DIVORCE IS SHAMEFUL. The ONLY WAY DIVORCE IS ACCEPTABLE IS OBVIOUS (ABUSE, A SERIOUS ALCOHOLIC ETC) but just cause your BORED, cause you don’t want to WORK ON YOUR MARRIAGE, that should seriously be A CRIME!! Divorce is no laughing matter, IT’S NOT SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE.  Women these days HAVE GOT TO LEARN they aren’t going to get that effin GQ effin guy (plus do you want that headache that would come along with that??) but soooooo many women these days are shooting for this PIE IN THE EFFIN SKY, SET THEIR STANDARDS SOOOO UNBELIEVABLY HIGH THAT IT’S UNATTAINABLE FOR ANY GUY and then it’s NO wonder women with these SUCH HIGH “requirements” “Demands” crash and burn EVERY EFFIN TIME. They want this 12 of a guy, but themselves are “average”, they don’t put in any effort and think just cause they are a lady they should “JUST HAVE” just cause. YUP, IT’S NO WONDER YOU  SEE SO MANY WOMEN GOING HOME ALL ALONE, CONSTANTLY BEATING THEMSELVES UP, BI*CHING ABOUT (WHERE ARE ALL THE “GOOD GUYS”, TELLING THEMSELVES I WANT A GOOD GUY).  Want to know a effin SECRET  ladies that do this??? The secret is (you know THAT guy that you diss, at the bar, club, at your neighborhood restaurant, the guys you constantly disregard, the guy that doesn’t know “exactly” what to say to you) that my lady friends is MOST likely your “good” guy. I didn’t say he was a “door mat” as so many women classify the “good” guys, most “good guys” have the bad boy sides to them.     

     (Editors’ note: seems to me like “Y” is inadvertently making the case for why men are more negative about dating than women.)  

223. Nauctavia 223

     Men don’t complain because they don’t like to admit their failures in dating.
     Not too many men want to admit they’re having trouble in dating or getting laid unless he trusts you.  I have a number of men that have confided to me that they bitterly despise various things about women and dating.  If you don’t hear too much about this yourself it might be a reflection of how much guys in your life trust you enough to bear their grievances.

224. starthrower68 224

     I might issue a friendly suggestion to Y to take some Dale Carnagie speaking course or maybe read “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.  Just a thought.

225. Vic 225

     If all goes well, women will continue the negative behavior and settle into amazing careers and live with their amazing cats and have lunch with their amazing friends. MGTOW

226. Annabell 226

     Bless your heart, Evan.
     Trust me, there are many, many men who say there are no good women left. You can find them in the manosphere going their own way (MGTOW) and they sound an awful lot like Y and Vic.
     No woman, not even a young, non-nun Mother Teresa would be good enough for some of these man. 

227. Vic 227

     Au Contraire, Annabell. I’m wishing women a future they choose and women should never judge themselves “good enough” for a man. She should enjoy her freedom and leave men out of her life.
     Go Grrlll!

228. mozerman 228

     Wow!! It’s taken me two days (evenings) to read all the comments here and I gotta say they’ve been rather amusing to say the least. So what the heck why not throw my two cents in.
     Margo … You are the stereotypical person living in fear. When a man gets in line behind you at a coffee shop do you flinch? Do you run screaming for the hills yelling rapist…rapist…rapist? Seriously give it a rest.
     As for the original question posed by the website owner Evan. Women have rights and Men have responsibilities. Women have the right to Mr Awesome, while not being awesome themselves and in fact being bitter. Women want the options talked about in Cosmo, Elle, Vogue … whatever girlie magazine happens to be the in thing only to find that we men view them as an option also. Bit of a double edged sword isn’t? But now here is where I try to reduce the whole situation to a fact of reality. Men did not grow up reading cosmo, nor do we watch Sex in the city, nor do we read 50 shades of grey … All of which are fantasies … female ones of course. We grew up learning to deal with reality. To this day I remember my dad telling me to never cry, to keep my emotions in and to act like a MAN. You know what the harshest lesson I’ve learned is? Never listen to a woman and her wants. Women say they want the nice guy and then they sleep with a bad boy(There’s a reason). Women said they wanted to pick and choose their partners for love so they were given feminism and now the divorce rate has skyrocketed(80% of divorces are initiated by women). I could go on for hours but what’s the point right?
     Women use their feelings to prove their point
     Men use statistics, Laws, experience to prove their point
     Who do you think is going to win
      

229. Vic 229

     And mozerman hits it out of the park! But SSHHHHHH, Mozer. The more women are amazed with themselves, the fewer men that get bent over in family court…now back away from this forum and hope to God they don’t listen to you…

230. marymary 230

     Mozzer
     if relationships are about winning, everyone loses. Unless you particularly want a loser by your side.
      

231. starthrower68 231

     It’s the coarsening of the culture Marymary. 

232. mozerman 232

     MaryMary, that’s an interesting take. Relationships are about teamwork right? Thus it’s the team that wins, hence both team mates are winners in the dating game. You’re right though no-one wants a loser which frankly is what these vocal women/sirens sound like. Of course, I for one am really happy that they’re vocal about it … so I know which ones to avoid
     Anyhoo, ladies take it for what it’s worth, when you learn to distinguish between lust (ie: sparks, connection, magic) and love (work, humility, empathy) then you might find the right guy smiling at you rather than smirking. 

233. Biscuitbum 233

     I am an  young looking 65, but despite not being too overweight and having most of my own hair, I fail on almost every other count.  I am no adonis, I am merely solvent, meaning I have enough only for  my reasonable lifestyle. I also fall short by being of only medium height.  I`m just an ordinary guy and not the high rolling professional with movie star looks most women are demanding.  The reason I would never use an online dating site, is that, should I even get dates, no woman would look beyond my perceived deficiencies.  I would end up as one of those people still on their books after 10 years.

234. Sparkling Emerald 234

     Biscuitbum 233
        We’re not all looking for a rich movie star.  Take a look around you at various couples.  Is every man in that bunch rich and super good looking ?
        I would prefer an average cute guy, height un-important, financially self sufficient, but being rich not important, I don’t even mind bald, and/or a few extra pounds.  If I find him cute, FUN,  and compatible what I really care about is HOW HE TREATS ME !!!!!! (and of course, if he treats me like a queen, then I’ll treat him like a king)
       I don’t really want a guy who is a 10 and rich. (and they usually don’t want me) They are usually players and narcissists who act like any woman they are with is damn lucky to be with them, and expect her to kiss his a$$,  in return for very little.
       Your self esteem might be a bigger issue than your age, your average income and your height. 
      

235. JustMe 235

     (80% of divorces are initiated by women). Mozerman 228
      
     Sorry -  I am pulling one little aside from Mozerman’s comment because I hear this statistic a lot.  I always wonder if when they are looking at who initiated the divorce if they also look at why.  My own experience was I initiated divorce proceedings.  Just looking at the records, it would seem that I pushed for the divorce.  Which is true – I did.  But only after he had been cheating, moved out, and showed absolutely no interest in working through the issues.  I spent 8 months trying to save something that now I see very clearly only existed within me.  When I gave up, I did initiate the divorce.  He actually wouldn’t have because it was more beneficial for him to stay married, even if in name only.  So who really initiated that divorce?  Me on paper and him in action?
      
     I always wonder how many of the 80% have a story like mine.
      
      

236. Mickey 236

     Annabell 226:
     You said, No woman, not even a young, non-nun Mother Teresa would be good enough for some of these man.
     Well, for a lot of women, Ghandi, The Green Hornet, and Jesus Christ himself wouldn’t bring anything to the table, either.

237. Mickey 237

     Biscuit 233:
     You sure as heck ain’t wrong. Somehow, being self-supporting, normal and reasonably sane just aren’t good enough. I see nothing wrong with your self-esteem; you read it right!
      

238. Sparkling Emerald 238

     MIcky 237 – You say that Biscuit is “right”
     Did you mean this gem ?  “I`m just an ordinary guy and not the high rolling professional with movie star looks most women are demanding.”
     As I told him, take a look at couples, does every couple consist of a rich man with movie star looks that he claims most women “demand” ????
     Look through this blog at the letters to EMK ?  Can you point to ONE letter where the woman says “Dear Evan, Please help me find a rich man who looks like a movie star, because I’m too good for anything less” ?
     Most of what women write about is how they are being TREATED.  Disappeared on, cheated on, non-communicating men, non-commital men, emotionally distant men.  A few letters about “lack of chemistry”, which seems to enrage a few of the males on this blog.  (Women are supposed to attracted to EVERY male that shows an interest, sleep with him as soon as he gets a boner without regard to his intention or her own feelings, and then be a good sport about it when he disappears)
     I’d say that most of us on this blog have been rejected by some, and have rejected a few people in our day.  However, it is human nature to focus on those who have rejected us and make them somehow “bad”  (ie: she must be “demanding” a super rich movie star, he was just a player, etc), and when we’ve been the one doing the rejecting, well it was justified (boring underwear, poor grammar, not feminine enough, not masculine enough,  poor body language, etc. etc.)
      
     I fell in love with an unemployed carpenter, 2 years younger than me. No movie star good looks, but very cute.  I had him at hello, lost him 10 years later at in-laws behaving badly, out of control teenager, parental illness & deaths, menopause, anxiety,  job troubles, etc., etc.,   I never wanted a movie star, or a rich man.  All i wanted was someone to stand beside me in good times and bad.  What I got was a fair weather husband.
     Hopefully, next time I will find someone who I can accept as he is , and he will accept me as I am, flaws and all, and stick around in good times and bad.
     And if someone like that doesn’t find me, well, I’d rather be alone.
      
      

239. Sparkling Emerald 239

     Helen 37
     “But yeah, being stuck alone with a baby for 3 hours can suck, unless it’s sleeping the whole time.  Good luck. ”
     This statement really saddens me.  I was mostly a stay at home mom until my son started public school.  OK, sometimes it was tough, but I CHERISH those times, and not just when he was sleeping. I didn’t consider myself “Stuck”, I considered myself LUCKY to be able to have so much time to spend with my precious baby.   Now that he’s grown and gone, I CHERISH the visits from my adult son.  And I DO miss his baby days.  But I am so glad I was able to spend so much time with him during his infancy/toddlerhood, because that time flew by so fast !

240. Mickey 240

     Sparkling:
     This is much more than chasing rich guys with movie star looks, of which I am neither.
     Just two personal experiences off the top of my head:
     1) I had a former co-worker once tell me I’d be a great catch once I graduated from law school. When I asked her if it was my total package or my law degree that made me a great catch, she ran for the hills.
     2) Another co-worker from a different job once told me that she wanted to marry a lawyer, but wouldn’t date him while he was in law school and waiting tables by day.
     So what’s a guy to do when he gets the usual diatribe of “all men are…(insert insult here)?” I’ve seen too many of the (allegedly) “fair sex” who firmly believe that men are useless and would rather dive in a pool of acid before believing any guy can be decent.
     That, plus the general anti-male anger at past injustices that we had nothing to do with only confirms my opinion that the dating dance is made up of two camps: “them” and “us”. So much for “soulmates”, right?
     Those are only a few reasons that I’m standing with Biscuit.

241. Sparkling Emerald 241

     Mickey 240
        I was responding to biscuits general assertion that most women “demand” movie star good looks and high rollers.  I disagree with his assertion, and your 2 anecdotal off the top of your head experiences don’t make most women demanding of movie star high rolling men.
       Take a look at all the couples out there.  I bet you see more than two, where the man is neither a movie star or a high roller.  And a very happy woman by his side.
       Sure we may DREAM of marrying Mr tall dark & handsome millionaire, just as men might DREAM of having a sexy girlfriend in harem pants,  who lives in a bottle and calls him “master” (in case you are to young to get the reference, google “I dream of Jeanie”) But in real life, when we put the Harlequin Romance novel down, what we want is an honest, decent, cute* guy who TREATS US WELL !  And I’m sure that most men want something similar, when they get tired of being a player.  
     *Cute is in the eye of the beholder, just basically means WE find him attractive, but not necessarily adonis good looks.
      

242. Sparkling Emerald 242

     Tom 79
      I was about to put you in the “disgusting” camp and then I read what you wrote here . . . 
     ——–”Reading the comments here, I’m a bit taken back by the hurt many women feel, I’ll be more cognisant of leading girls on in future, and be more upfront.”
     ———
     Thank you for listening and being empathetic.
      
      

243. Mickey 243

     Sparkling:
     The fact that you might disagree with my experience or Biscuit’s doesn’t invalidate the fact that there are those of us who just have not had good experiences. Nor do I dispute that you have justifiable reasons for the end of your marriage.
     Speaking only for myself here, I can only say that the collateral damage adds up over time to the point that pursuing a relationship (movie star looks or not) becomes a guaranteed exercise in futility.
     Other than that, I’m willing to agree to disagree.

244. Mickey 244

     Sparkling: you also said “And I’m sure that most men want something similar, when they get tired of being a player.”
     Can I take that to mean that “most men are players?” I was never a “player” a day in my life.

245. JustMe 245

     Mickey:
      
     “Speaking only for myself here, I can only say that the collateral damage adds up over time to the point that pursuing a relationship (movie star looks or not) becomes a guaranteed exercise in futility.
     Other than that, I’m willing to agree to disagree.”
      
     I can say the same thing; I meet someone, we hit it off, we starting seeing each other, he calls, I am already accepting and open to him, and he goes poof.  After so many of these, it is difficult to continue because you don’t want to be hurt again.   I understand what you are saying because I am on the female flip side. 
     “Can I take that to mean that “most men are players?” I was never a “player” a day in my life”
      
     In the same way you don’t like being lumped with the players, we ALSO  don’t like being lumped with women who are shallow, who are looking for the rich guy.  In the same way that there are men who are players but you are not one, I know the women do exist that you describe but I am not one. 
      
     Sparkling Emerald is right.  A lot of women, not all, but a lot are looking for a guy who treats them well.   

246. Mickey 246

     Just Me:
     You’ll get no argument from me.

247. Sparkling Emerald 247

     Mickey -
     =============================
     Sparkling: you also said “And I’m sure that most men want something similar, when they get tired of being a player.”
     Can I take that to mean that “most men are players?” I was never a “player” a day in my life.
     ==============================
      
     Hmm, you don’t like it when you think I said “most men are players” but you stand by biscuit when he says most women demand adonis good looks and high rollers.  Very interesting.
     Actually I DO think MOST men are players or player wanna-be’s.  Depends on how you define player.  If you define it as someone who is DISHONEST about their intentions when looking for sex (either outright lying, or lying by omission) then no, probably not most.   I also use “player” to describe the wild oats sowing period that many men go through.  Many men freely admit to this, and claim that men are biologically hard wired to “spread their seed”.    Perhaps my meaning would have been more clear if I had said ““And I’m sure that most men want something similar, when they get tired of sowing their wild oats.”
     I could be wrong that most men sow their wild oats (or would like to), but why is there so much advice to women on how to AVOID being a silo for wild oats ?  Why are we told to ACCEPT this aspect of men, as something that is biologically driven and out of their control ? The advice is always how to get  him to commit to you, when he could be just out there sowing wild oats, and how it is such a BIG sacrifice for a man to be monogamous, and how we women shouldn’t lament that men are this way, but accept it, learn how to deal with it, negotiate with it withOUT making them feel like perverts. (Not really bad advice, sounds good on paper, but it can be hard to follow) The advice usually isn’t “Only one percent of men want to enjoy as many sexual partners before marriage (or instead of marriage) so don’t fret it girls.  Just avoid that pesky 1% and go for the other 99% virgin males, who are just saving themselves for their future bride)    (Ok, I’m just being a bit hyperbolic for the fun of it, please everyone don’t pounce on this, but do you get my drift ? )
     You may not have ever been a player, and you sound frustrated about your search for a relationship, and I can understand that.  I had 5 years in between marriages.  Lonely search against a ticking biological time clock.  Searching for love again, with the “other” biological time clock ticking in my ear.  Whole ‘nother topic, of the second biological time clock.  I’ve only been out of my marriage 2 years, and the first year and a half, I wasn’t even thinking about getting into another relationship.  It’s only been 8 months since I’ve really decided to try again, and yes I DO get frustrated, but I really don’t think there are bad guys this time around, just that finding a good match is NOT easy.  Especially at age 57, separated but not divorced (for health insurance reasons)  Mickey I am sorry you consider your search an exercise in futility, but I understand how you feel, because I’ve been there too.   I hope you do find someone.
      
     Just me:  You said “Sparkling Emerald is right.  A lot of women, not all, but a lot are looking for a guy who treats them well.    ”
     Thanks for the affirmation.  I think EVERYONE (men and women) want to be treated well, but SETTLE for less, because for some, being in a bad relationship is better than being lonely.  And it is so hard to find a good match.  My marriage started off mostly great (had it’s up and downs, mostly UPs) then some life challenges happened and things took a turn for the worst, and I ended up accepting a lot of things I should NOT have accepted.  But I’m getting better everyday, and I hope I never settle for what I settled for the last half of my marriage. If I’m going to be lonely, I would rather be lonely living alone.  Being married and lonely is the WORST kind of lonely there is.
      
      
      

248. Mickey 248

     Sparkling:
     No argument here, either.

249. mozerman 249

     Sparkling Emerald @ 242 just gave the best demonstration of why women can be played so easily …
     a)Consider … Tom, a self confessed pump&dumper (No offence but Tom basically says as much) who throws out some empty rhetoric … “I’ll be more cognisant of leading girls on in future”
     b)Sparkling Emerald then says “Thank you for listening and being empathetic.”
     Emerald take it for what it’s worth but clearly tom knows how to handle women. Here you are thanking him … you’re projecting your desires onto tom and then looking for justification.
     I only recently swallowed the red pill of truth and let me tell you it’s moments like this that make me wonder why why why I ever believed telling the truth to a woman would ever get me anywhere. However, I won’t be blaming women for not being attracted to me, I will be blaming myself for not lying to generate attraction. I wonder how long these women will keep blaming other for their problems

250. marymary 250

     Mozerman
     I’m not easily played. I guess six years of no dating, the last three of which I was very happy (the first three not so much) killed dead any need in me for male validation. For quite a long time I didn’t even “see” men.  It’s not that I hated them, they felt like nothing to do with me.   
     My boyfriend is honest, kind hearted and reliable.  The liars and/or pumpers aren’t my problem except I don’t like it when they hurt my female friends. Incidentally, my female friends have since moved onto better things. maybe this period can lead to something better. I’d say that to anyone who feels negative about dating, it’s entitrely within our power to turn it around. It’s not instant. From when I felt ready to meet someone to when I did was about two years. But I was fishing in a very small pool as I wasn’t going to date outside my religion. Time marches on and life is short even if you live to be a hundred. What can you do but make the best of it.
      

251. Sparkling Emerald 251

     Mozerman 249
     “Sparkling Emerald @ 242 just gave the best demonstration of why women can be played so easily …
     a)Consider … Tom, a self confessed pump&dumper (No offence but Tom basically says as much) who throws out some empty rhetoric … “I’ll be more cognisant of leading girls on in future”
     b)Sparkling Emerald then says “Thank you for listening and being empathetic.”
     Emerald take it for what it’s worth but clearly tom knows how to handle women. Here you are thanking him … you’re projecting your desires onto tom and then looking for justification.
     I only recently swallowed the red pill of truth and let me tell you it’s moments like this that make me wonder why why why I ever believed telling the truth to a woman would ever get me anywhere. However, I won’t be blaming women for not being attracted to me, I will be blaming myself for not lying to generate attraction. I wonder how long these women will keep blaming other for their problems”
     —————-
      
     I am not dating Tom, so what I say to him on a blog, doesn’t prove much.  Yes, it IS true that there are low down liars and players in the world, and YOU are a glaring example of the kind of man our mothers and EMK warn us about.
     But I do want be in another LTR and the ONLY way that can happen, is if I get back on that horse again so to speak.  I can definitively dump the guys who are at least honest about their intentions with their “I’m not looking for anything serious line”.  I can judge the others by their efforts and actions and my gut feelings.  Sure, there are players like you who have no qualms about lying to get what they want, and they can fool some of the women, some of the time.  I MIGHT get fooled again, but that’s a chance I’m willing to take.  So while there are plenty of liars, jerks and players to go around, there are also men who are looking for someone special to LOVE.  There is no reason in the world for me to think that I couldn’t be that special someone, and that there isn’t a match for me. If I had the attitude you seem to think I should have, I would have given up after my 6th grade spin the bottle boyfriend dumped me.  I could have avoided two broken marriages,  and lots of dead end dates.  But I also would have avoided the joys of motherhood.  I can’t ever completely regret my marriage, because I have a wonderful son from it. 
     Sooner or later, almost every man, even the most hardened “use and lose ‘em” player falls in love.  (sometimes when looking for sex, sometimes after tiring of sex with no connection and actively looking for love)  If they are lucky, their love is returned.  If there’s anything to Karma, sometimes they get jilted.  The bigger they are, the harder they fall.  Players who get a taste of their own bitter medicine are usually the one screaming the loudest about how all women are bitches.
      
     BTW, I hear women blame THEMSELVES  (or share the blame)  for their failed loved lives all the time.  Either self blame for NOT believing a man when he said “I’m NOT looking for anything serious,” and/or blame themselves when a sweet talking liar and player tells what ever pretty lies are necessary to get laid. (like you have vowed to do)
     In the first scenario, a little self blame is appropriate, but more importantly LEARN from it, learn to BELIEVE the negatives.  In the second scenario, hell yes, there’s some blame to go around, if some smooth talker lied his way into her pants. But after drying her eyes, and getting over it, she can LEARN from that as well.  Some accomplished, lying, players are very good at what they do, but very often there is a little tell, and while learning to observe the man she is  getting involved with won’t 100% guarantee anything, it will tilt the odds in her favor.  That’s the best we can do in life anyway, tilt the odds in our favor, weather we are talking about love, career success, social success, etc.  Nothing comes with a 100% guarantee.

252. mozerman 252

     To MaryMary:  I have no idea whether or not you’re easily played and I don’t believe I intimated that. I can tell you that the more you tell yourself what you are and are not the more likely you “doth protest too much”. Also, while you should never need male validation … killing the need for human contact just leads to apathy and that’s just another type of death.
     To Sparkling Emerald: Seriously, regardless of what you say now, or why you justify having said or done something in the past understand that you are looking at your actions from a subjective as opposed to an objective tense. Consequently, the rose coloured glasses we all wear when considering our actions are not clear. You went out of your way to thank Tom for listening/empathy. In doing so you’ve illustrated a desire on your part to have someone like Tom listen to you. Your reasons for doing so are irrelevant. Consider that from a male perspective that sentence by Tom is more likely than not perceived as pandering. I too am guilty of it, … the “tell the girl whatever she wants to hear” attitude that in effect turns a girl from a tiger into a kittycat.
     To be frank I think this entire discussion has turned into a big circular argument. If there is one thing I’ve learned in life you can’t fight the world, nor can you fight an entire gender.
     I have a date tonight with a girl. As the night wears on my attitude will shift according to how she acts. If she gets all prissy & silly then I will look to knock her off her pedestal … by any words at my disposal. Heaven help me if she doesn’t act like a little girl … it’s been so long since I met a lady I may fallback on being a nice guy … and we all know how that’ll end. Right??

253. Over Him 253

     I am a 30 year old woman who is taking a much-needed break from online dating. I often find myself with bitter divorced men or immature never married men who seem to take pleasure in insulting me or attempting to cut down my confidence. For any man who thinks foreign women are the Holy Grail, by all means, go get your perfect woman. I’m just tired of being told that I’m not good enough, that I don’t make enough money, that I’m not attractive enough, that I’m not cool enough, etc. by men. One of my friends put things in perspective. She asked me why I allow someone to talk down to me simply because he has a penis. So now, I have stopped looking at men as people to admire and dashed my expectations. Multiple men have broken my heart by openly telling me that they never felt anything for me. I am tired of trying to breathe life into the walking dead. I am sorry if this is offensive, but this is how I feel. I recently read an article that took some of the sting off of my negative experiences: “Wimps and Barbarians: The Sons of Murphy Brown” by Terrence Moore.

254. Sparkling Emerald 254

     Mozerman 252 said . . .
     I have a date tonight with a girl. As the night wears on my attitude will shift according to how she acts. If she gets all prissy & silly then I will look to knock her off her pedestal … by any words at my disposal. Heaven help me if she doesn’t act like a little girl … it’s been so long since I met a lady I may fallback on being a nice guy … and we all know how that’ll end. Right??
     ————————-
     Not sure what you mean by “prissy & silly’, but it seems you have 2 scenarios planned for the evening, either end the evening by insulting your date or humping & dumping her (or perhaps laying the foundation for a hump & dump in the near future)  Sounds like a no win situation for this girl.  I hope she is or becomes a regular reader of this blog, she may learn how to avoid guys like you to begin with.  I am grateful for this blog, it allows women to SEE the kind of men EMK and our mothers warned us about.

255. Helen 255

     Sparking Emerald: I don’t think there’s any need to worry too much about what Mozerman wrote to you. He is the one who needs sympathy, not you, because of the bitterness and suspicion in his words. If he goes into a date preparing himself to knock the woman down, he has an approach to life that will not serve him well in any circumstance.
      
     There are tons of good guys out there. You will find them everywhere, and I’m sure that in real life scenarios, you can tell which ones are keepers and which ones are not.
      
     I also don’t think Mozerman’s characterization of Tom is entirely fair. Tom is, what, 28 years old? That he tries to please – not just in this instance but in many others on this blog – shows at the least that he is not a narcissist and cares what others think; he’s not irredeemable. Moreover, he has remained lighthearted in the face of criticisms from commenters, which is more than can be said for a lot of the rest of us.
      

256. Julia 256

     @Sparkling Emerald #254 and Mozerman
      
     If a guy decided he wanted to test me by insulting me on a date. I would act like a lady and end the date short. If you want a woman of quality you treat her with respect. Can you imagine if a woman insulted you on a date Mozerman???? You would be looking for a way out ASAP. This is a bad dating strategy, luckily I’ve never encountered it.

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