Why Being Attracted to Smarter Men Is the Biggest Reason You’re Single
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Sounds like a pretty exhausting relationship, doesn’t it?
Sounds like the price you pay for dating a great conversationalist is pretty steep, huh?
On one side, you get a brilliant, stimulating mind, which really turns you on…
On the other you get a narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed, coldly logical man who is much more concerned with ideas than feelings, and much more concerned with himself than with you.
Once again… Hmmm…
Before I forget, there was one other thing I wanted you to consider:
You will STILL be attracted to geniuses, but you now know that they do not make for a good fit in your life. Never have. Never will.
Very smart. Know-it-all. Difficult. Moody. Short-tempered. Opinionated. Workaholic. Egomaniac. Judgmental. Always want things your way.
Does that describe anybody else besides those brilliant men you’re drawn to?
It certainly describes my clients. And I wouldn’t be all that shocked if it somewhat described you as well.
And when two people who are that smart, that opinionated, and that strong-willed get together, it should obvious that sparks will fly – and tensions will mount.
So while I’m not judging you for being just like I am – I AM pointing out to you that if you insist that you can ONLY be attracted to men who are smarter than you, you are relegating yourself to less than 2% of the population (before we consider things like looks, height, money, religion, humor, charm, attraction, values, etc.)
Moreover, you’re relegating yourself to a man who is NOT A GOOD FIT FOR YOU.
And therefore, it doesn’t matter if you’re attracted to only MENSA men.
The key to your future successful relationships is going to come in opening up to smart guys without all the baggage that comes from being brilliant and driven.
That does NOT mean that you are going to find yourself with a man who has never read a newspaper, who has no interest in foreign travel, or who can’t keep up with you and your friends.
It does mean that you need to accept men who are not in the 98th percentile of intelligence, and recognize that there are plenty of amazing, bright, relationship-oriented men who may not be smarter than you.
It’s not all or nothing.
We compromise on things every single day.
Your job isn’t perfect. You put up with it for 10 hours a day.
Your friends and family aren’t perfect. You put up with them for the rest of the time.
And yet you still hold your boyfriend to a ridiculous standard, as if a man who went to a state school and doesn’t watch Sunday morning political talk shows is a dullard.
I know, I know.
You can’t help what you’re attracted to.
Me either.
But I spent the first 35 years of my life chasing women who were just like me – the smartest women in the room. And I put up with the same things that you have to deal with from men – selfishness, difficulty, self-righteousness and so on.
I married a woman who was smart – who gets every joke, who knows about Shakespeare and classical music, who has definite opinions about Israel/Palestine – but she’s not necessarily in the 98th percentile of intellectual curiosity.
And you know what?
It feels GREAT.
Because most of our lives are not spent discussing the finer points of Proust, or the best way to fix the 2-party system, or the science behind String Theory… our time is usually spent talking about fixing up the house, raising our daughter, planning our next vacation, figuring out what we’re going to have for dinner, etc.
Thus, my wife doesn’t HAVE to be like me – because we’re great together.
So if you believe in self-help, if you’ve read books about spirituality, if you’ve gone to shrinks and taken weekend seminars, and yet you still think your husband has to be on the exact same wavelength as you?
Sorry.
He doesn’t.
He just has to respect you. And you have to respect him.
My wife hasn’t done any of that personal growth stuff and you know what?
She’s happy. Better than that, she’s CONTENT.
Have you ever been with a brilliant guy who is, at heart, a miserable person?
I’ll bet you have.
And I’ll bet you’d do it again – hoping for a different ending this time.
Once again, there’s no different ending.
Brilliant men tend to be bad partners. You’ve seen this numerous times.
So, from now on, you’re going to discover the virtues of smart, kind, thoughtful, generous, easygoing, commitment-oriented men.
You will STILL be attracted to geniuses, but you now know that they do not make for a good fit in your life. Never have. Never will.
You CAN get the relationship you want; just not with the man you always thought you wanted.
Trust me, the reality is FAR better than the fantasy.
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82 Comments »Filed Under Chemistry vs. Compatibility
JB 1
Great post.
Evan if i may ask, who is the “pickier” of the two sexes? My female friends want it all, height, money, intelligence, looks, full head of hair etc…the guys i know who have it all(for the most part) are happy with a fun, attractive girl. Why is there such a discrepancy?
kimby 2
@JB come on, we all know that guys who “have it all” in a woman are never satisfied with what they have. They’ll want a playmate too, who is probably her exact opposite.
lawyerette 3
“Men say exactly what they mean. Yet somehow, women still look for alternative explanations. Why? Is it because you don’t say what you mean?”
Evan, I wanted to take issue with this Tweet. I didn’t want reply on Twitter because I don’t want all my (male) friends knowing I listen to a dating coach. And my response is way longer than 140 characters.
Men are not as direct as they claim to be. Now, I’m not saying you all are difficult to figure out. You’re not, once a woman has the “code” – and what you are so great at, Evan, is translating and giving that code to women. But men aren’t that direct. For instance, if a guy is stringing a woman along in a FWB situation, he does he say? “I’m not ready for a relationship/I’m not ready for a relationship right now/I’m not looking for anything serious.” Taken literally, none of those things mean he won’t or can’t or doesn’t want to eventually get serious with you. Which is why, I think, women don’t take those phrases to mean as such. If a guy were to be direct and say something like, I dunno, “[Woman's name], you’re great and I really enjoy spending time with you, but I don’t ever see you becoming my wife” – I’m pretty sure he’d never hear from her again. And guys know that, which is why they don’t say it.
Ellen 4
WHO are these women wanting men smarter than they are? Please tell me why!!!
Like Evan, I am an intellectual snob but I keep it well hidden most of the time. Must be my Southern Belle training, which, all things considered, has served me very well over the years in a variety of situations, not just romantic. I mean, I guess I come across as cerebral, been told I am very strong, smart, informed, well read etc. but still I think people tend to underestimate me til they know me well ’cause I don’t mouth off too much about my many opinions. Learned over the years people aren’t interested in what you have to say too much, just who you are and how you make them feel.
To repeat, I am 58. I remember growing up with this sense from the media, society that women just weren’t as smart as men. I resented it, knew it wasn’t true. It’s why I’ve always REALLY resonated with, understood African Americans and the prejudice they have had to endure. Many are friends, and not just casually.
But I’m getting off track here, sorry. So imagine my surprise when I start dating 3 years ago and realize, with force, that I am probably smarter than 80% of the guys I contact/contact me! Sobering. Ironic. So when on occasion I date a REALLY smart man for a while I often get nervous ’cause I figure he can out-maneuver me every time (’cause he’s more head than heart- see comment below). Knows all the gender wars ends and outs. Will make mincemeat of me eventually.
Still, I’m attracted to them, them to me ’cause of who we are (I am VERY into ideas, the big picture). My banner on all my dating websites reads: “Looking for a man who’s a good blend of head and heart”. ‘Cause the super cerebral types seldom have well developed hearts usually. ‘Cause Evan’s right, they DO live in their heads too much.
I overthink things too (a lot actually), but I always view the man as a child of God first and foremost. They seldom return the favor. If I had a dollar for every smart man who’s tried to play me, I could fly to Tahiti tonight! First class! lol
Ellen 5
PS-
JB, I think many older woman (30+) may be pickier because they may have this sense that men aren’t worth it in general, aren’t worth the huge hassle of attracting and keeping them unless they can get EXACTLY what they want.
My sense/experience is men are happier in general in long-term relationships than women and so maybe more willing to “settle”, especially after marriage. Save childbearing and/or extreme loneliness, women proceed with much more caution after a certain age or give up altogether. I can’t tell you how many women I know who have given up on men and they are still fairly young.
I am middle-aged and feel somewhat similarly except that in my saner moments I sometimes try to find “good enough”.
Zaq 6
JB@1
Women are far far pickier. It’s in the genes, they can’t help it. Pregnancy is a major commitment, and they have only so many eggs (90% of which are gone by the time they are 30 I believe).
As a man its frustrating, but it is what it is. Remember though that although men will set the bar comparatively low, they compare all women to an average 20 year old. This leaves women over 40 seriously compromised, and those over 50 mostly out of the game.
I’m not sure it’s easy to compromise though. We make compromises on the jobs we have and many hate every day of it. I think I read somewhere that most people are dissatisfied with their job, but income has to be earned somehow.
I know a guy who is married to an unattractive woman. That is all he could get. He is constantly looking for a replacement.
I’m sure you have seen the film Shallow Hal. The film was trying to get across the idea that a short poor man is shallow in wanting attractive women who would all reject him. This is of course nonsense. If anything the attractive women were shallow in rejecting him.
The interesting thing was that, thanks to hypnotic suggestion he was able to see a very ugly woman as extremely beautiful.
If only that were possible in the real world.
Goldie 7
Couple points…
1) As someone who’s currently seeing a very smart guy, and has two very smart guys (age 16 and 18) living at home, I’ve got to say that not all very smart guys are the unsufferable a-holes that you describe. Just had to say this, because if I don’t speak up in defense of very smart guys, who will?
2) As someone who’s been around Mensa members long enough (two annual gatherings, more FB friends than I can count, etc) I have a hard time equating qualifying for Mensa membership with intelligence. Yah, these people have all passed a test that evaluates your logical reasoning and your ability to solve certain problems quickly. Some of them are highly intelligent, some are not. Some are great husbands and partners. Most will (and have) send a woman running for the hills. Likewise, one of the smartest guys I’ve known has tried taking an online Mensa test and failed. He was devastated, poor guy, but to me, the problem is with the test and not with him. It’s almost like being in the proverbial 2% is not related to actual intelligence.
3) It’s not the intelligence that you’re born with that is important, it’s what you do with it. I’ve met enough highly intelligent men who are not interested in anything other than sitting on a couch and watching whatever happens to be on TV. Regardless of how smart they are, we won’t get along.
Which leads me to thinking, maybe instead of saying we want intelligence, we need to stop and think about why we want it. What is the end result we want to achieve with an intelligent partner? I’d say I want someone I can respect, and have fun with. As long as he’s intelligent enough for these two things to happen, I’m good.
@JB, I like how in your comment women want it all – height, looks, full head of hair, while men just want an attractive girl. Aren’t these two things the same? unless men don’t care about the “attractive girl”‘s height and whether she has a full head of hair! I bet they don’t care about her weight either, as long as she’s attractive
Stacey 8
Evan, “very smart” does not equal “know it all”. In fact, most of the times the “know it all”-s are actually not smart at all and don’t really know what they’re talking about. The really smart guys with occupations in math, science, etc. are mostly geeky and type-B personalities, not assertive or aggressive or street-smart. Think the big bang theory types
I was married to a guy like that once, They’re very mellow in relationships and gladly surrender the leadership 
Jan 9
Great article, Evan. I think it goes both ways: if we stereotyped all men as those who wanted Pamela Anderson types – blond, size 2, enhanced with plastic surgery, and an IQ slightly above their shoe size – they would never be happy with one of us. We rail on them for holding women to ridiculous physical standards, and yet many of us are guilty for doing the same thing to them on an intellectual level.
Suheil 10
I really love your blog and follow it religiously. That being said, it feels a little weird when you say your wife was not necessarily in the 98th percentile of intellectual curiosity. To me she sounds like just the smartest woman out there, she doesn’t seem to challenge you and she seems to listen, that tells me she’s a very smart person, well above the 98th percentile… because … how often does it happen that you find a person who just “gets it” and who isn’ll all “it’s my way or no way”… the odds are pretty slim if you ask me.
Lance 11
There were a few directions you could have gone with this. Well played sir.
Evan Marc Katz 12
Thanks for your thoughts, everybody. And while I thought it might be obvious after my many years of blogging, but just because there are exceptions to every rule doesn’t invalidate the rule.
@Lawyerette – who comes up with an example of men not saying what they mean. You’re right. They don’t in every single instance. But even those men will generally not say “I love you” if they don’t mean it or “You’re my girlfriend” just to sleep with you. But even this misses the larger point – women speak with nuance and subtlety. They avoid conflict. Men are blunt and callous. Once again, these are stereotypes. But if I meet a woman who is blunt and callous, she reminds me of a man. So let’s not get too focused on the fact that there are exceptions. Lets think about why women look for alternate meanings in what men say when he says what he means.
@Goldie – you got a little too focused on the MENSA qualification. That wasn’t the point. I went to one MENSA meeting and my head almost exploded from the social awkwardness. It was just a marker for 98th percentile, nothing more. Yes, there will be many beta males at a MENSA meeting which might make for good partners, but this has nothing to do with my post about women who are attracted to very smart men *who also have looks and social confidence.
@Stacey – same thing. Most of my readers aren’t looking for Big Bang guys (so to speak). They’re looking for the Bill Clintons of the world. Those guys are generally bad bets for peace and long-term commitment. Read the papers if you doubt me.
@Suheil – my wife has the highest emotional intelligence of any one I’ve ever met, but she’ll be the first to admit that she’s not that curious. The fact that I married her should tell you all you need to know about what I truly value most.
JB 13
Hmm, i still think Evan is basically trying to tell everyone to stop being so full of yourself and adjust your outlook for a mate accordingly.
I agree Zaq, it is much tougher for older women, but as Evan and Lori Gottleib state, women in their 20′s and early 30′s have a huge amount of men chasing them before the dropoff begins..better to grab a guy who’s an 8 now than wait for a 9 or 10 that will never settle for you. Also, guys who date models are guys who can get models. That’s maybe 2% of the population, the rest of us are more down to earth with our requirements.
Ellen 14
PS everyone: The PERFECT movie metaphor for Evan’s point is “Crossing Delancy” with Amy Irving and Peter Riegert. One of my all time favorite romantic movies.
Amy plays a cerebral bookseller/agent who repeatedly turns down Peter (her grandmother’s suggestion as she is a traditional Jewish matchmaker) because he’s not smart enough, sophisticated enough. He runs a pickle stand on Delancy Street while she works in Manhattan….I won’t ruin the movie, but she slowly comes ’round.
Goldie 15
Evan, looks like both Stacey and I misunderstood your post, because the Bill Clintons (and G.W. Bushes?) of the world is not what comes to mind when I see the words “really smart guys”, “brilliant guys”, “geniuses”, “cerebral” etc. What I just listed are, as Stacey correctly said, the Sheldons of the world. That’s the category I thought you meant. Looks like, in fact, you are referring to the successful, powerful etc men. I don’t specialize in those, so apologize for my comment. It was made in reference to the “really smart guys”, whom I do know a lot about.
Evan Marc Katz 16
Bill Clinton is brilliant, Goldie. Rhodes Scholar. You can’t lump him in with Bush. His intelligence IS what makes him attractive – not his looks.
PermanentGuest 17
Interesting article, but I’ve got to come from the other side.
“Smarter than you” does not necessarily mean genius, since not every woman who is intelligent is at a level far above average.
Further, not every smart guy shares the qualities (rather, negative attributes) that you listed. In fact, you’ll find many highly intelligent men who are humble, quirky, and just plain comfortable in their own skin. Not every intelligent guy is insecure.
Lastly, I’m not sure just how many women want a man they are way smarter than. The likely result is a deep insecurity in the male, which leads to a lack of leadership on his part and an unfulfilling relationship.
Ruby 18
I’m not looking for a man who’s smarter, but one who is of similar intelligence. I can’t think of any single friend who is looking for someone who is “smarter” than she is. A guy in the same ballpark will do. As far as “narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed” goes, I’ve met some men who fit that bill and they weren’t necessarily all that bright. Frankly, when I’ve tried to date men who are less intelligent, it doesn’t work because they tend to feel inadequate. The best relationship I’ve had was with a guy who was brilliant and fascinating to talk to. He was also kind and responsible. If I was lucky enough to find a man like that again, I’d want to marry him in a heartbeat.
Kimberly 19
I LOVE this post…
I have been very happy with loving, sweet and relationship oriented men. And miserable with highly intelligent, moody etc. men…. What women don’t understand is the competitiveness that exists between two people that have many of the qualities Evan listed.
Believe me…you will NOT feel loved if the man in your life is always trying to “one up” you. Rather…you need someone who is secure, smart and confident in what he does that will LOVE and SUPPORT you in all your brilliance….Amazing wise advice Evan…much love….
Ileana 20
Yet another great post. Even if i agree with you on what you said about the PROs and CONs about being in a relationship with a smart man, i have the feeling that the ‘smartness’ concept you use is rather fuzzy (and probably that’s why many people who commented here see a different side of the issue)
Intelligence is so complex, so fluid, that you simply cant put it in a box and expect it to fit only into that one particular box. Some people are book smart, others are street smart. Others are simply wise. Some are good with math/logic, but lack social skills. Some are good with languages, but can’t read maps. And the list goes on.
You can’t claim Einstein was smarter than Mozart or Jane Austen. You can’t compare Newton, Dickens, Bach, Kant, Picasso, Spielberg, Bill Gates etc to eachother.
Even psychologists agree with the fact that IQ tests are not that reliable, because there are so many other traits that are not taken into account.
As long as you are compatible and can have interesting conversations, is the MENSA score really that important?
Goldie 21
@ Ruby:
“Frankly, when I’ve tried to date men who are less intelligent, it doesn’t work because they tend to feel inadequate.”
Agree, I’ve tried it a few times too. Poor guys act so intimidated and out of their depth, I have no choice but to end their misery by telling them this isn’t going to work. Then a few weeks down the road, they’re perfectly happy with someone who’s in their league intellectually. They’re nice guys and deserve to be happy, you know?
@ Evan #16, point taken. Can I rephrase and say that, if life is high school (come on, we all know it is), that Stacey and I had assumed that you were talking about women wanting to date geeks, when in fact your post was about women wanting to date preppy kids?
Ruby 22
Also, when I think of my happily married friends, not one of them married someone who wasn’t their intellectual equal. Not smarter, not less smart, but similar.
Robyn 23
As the saying goes, “there’s a fine line between genius and insanity”.
Or as I like to put it, “cute & clever” is good but “cute & clever & crazy/kooky” is not.
I’ve know many exceptionally intelligent people over the years (from a wide sample that includes family members, friends, lovers and colleagues).
Some of them were “human” and could relate to the rest of the world (ie: had emotional IQ to go with their exceptional brains). They were/are abolutely fantastic people to know and be with.
But there were others that could barely conduct a conversation and/or were totally self-absorbed with themselves/their research projects and/or considered anyone less intelligent than themselves to be 4th class citizens - almost disabled at an emotional or personality level – which does NOT make for a great partner at all.
It takes more to make a great partner than having high IQ scores / oodles of degrees & diploma’s / MENSA membership / fat salary. Unfortunately the really essential factors (like “EQ”, attitude, ethics, personality) are way harder to quantify or measure than IQ or salary numbers on a W2.
Honey 24
My husband Jake is in Mensa, and he has EVERY SINGLE NEGATIVE QUALITY you describe. And, to top it all off, he’s STILL not as smart as me! (I’m in Mensa, too). What makes it work is that:
(1) I am a female raised in the South (so I have all the stereotypical emotional intelligence of a woman as well as life experience in a non-confrontational culture),
(2) We agree on a variety of other issues that only really small subsets of the population do (atheist, vegetarian, not wanting kids, etc.)
If it weren’t for that, living with him would be intolerable. Still is, sometimes. While I am happy with him in a way that I couldn’t be with someone who wasn’t my “equal,” if I had known 10 years ago what I know now about long-term relationships, I would have married someone in the 80th percentile long, long ago…
Evan Marc Katz 25
@Ruby – nobody said to do otherwise. It’s women who need men who are Taller. Smarter. Richer. And if he’s an inch shorter or doesn’t have a masters degree, he’s out. That’s the dangerous phenomenon. Nowhere did you hear me to tell a woman to marry a man who was “less than”, but rather, marry a guy who has a higher emotional IQ – which is a greater predictor of relationship success than a regular IQ.
Zann 26
A couple of points I’d like to make. I think the terms “smart” and “intelligent” and even “rich” are so subjective and open to so many different interpretations that they’re not really useful in this dialogue. It hit me when Bill Clinton’s name came up. In my opinion, Bill Clinton is the perfect example of this phenomenon. He IS a very smart, informed, shoot-from-the-hip man. He’s got charisma, incredible people skills, and is “book-smart,” as well. He’s also capable of being manipulative because he reads people well and plays to their sweet spots. Not surprisingly, he’s a politician and a chronic philanderer. I don’t think that’s ever been any big secret to anyone who knows him — especially not to Hillary. But is Bill Clinton wise with his talents? Not so much, much of the time, even though he continues to be sought after and is now extremely wealthy. Does he always consider the other person before jumping into a situation in order to gratify himself? Don’t think so. So, he’s likely emotionally immature and grossly impulsive. He acts now because it feels good and will deal with the repercussions later. To a Type-B, this seems like a man who acts very unwisely. But to a Type-A, (male or female) he’s an attractive challenge. My point is that I think what we’re talking about here – in addition to scholastic intelligence and emotional intelligence — is charisma, the power to attract & entertain & seduce. Also know as great social skills. I’ve known many extremely educated & truly intelligent men & women who were painfully socially awkward, shy, moody, introverted. I might find their brains impressive and attractive, but not as much as I find the extrovert irresistable. More than the brainy guy, I’m drawn to the guy who makes me laugh, who talks a blue streak, knows a lot about many things, or if he doesn’t, he’s a really good Bullsh*tter. He’s sexy because he’s confident and can think on his feet. And he’s almost unfailingly very, very hands-on, very affectionate & tactile. What’s not to love? This is the guy who has drawn me in my whole adult life (and I’m frickin 59), and he still does. I can spot him a mile away. I know he’s a dead end for me, because he loves himself way more than he can ever love me (or anyone else.) It’s not personal, it’s who he is. His talents have allowed him the luxury of a neverending supply of people who want to know him and hang with him. But he’s not Relationship material & he never will be. He may have married, several times, he might have kids, even grandkids. But he doesn’t have staying power, the patience, or the emotional maturity (there, I’ve said it) to be a long-haul guy. He doesn’t like to sacrifice or to sit still and look at the long-term goal. I guess the extreme end of this is the narcissist, but more often he’s the guy who is warm and seductive and entertaining, and soooooooooo smart. He’s a guy’s guy and a ladies’ man. There are men my age who still embody these characteristics, although they’ve mellowed and their prowess is somewhat limited due to aging. But it’s a head thing, and they don’t lose it, and I still find them (almost) irresistable. Is that because I’m also smart, funny, entertaining, informed & I just want to cuddle up to another me? Or is it because this particular type of Alpha Extrovert is irresistable to almost everyone. Would you rather engage over a nice glass of wine with Bill Clinton…. or Harry Reid? (And forget GWB — he’s not even in the ballpark here; he’s as dumb as dirt and too shallow to care.) I have never found long-term happiness with the Extrovert, and yet I’m still attracted..but it’s an informed and knowing attraction, if that makes any difference. I may be older but I can still be a magical thinker. And extremely single.
Peter 27
The bell curve for men spreads wider than for women on every measure. There are more clever men than clever women just as there are more stupid men than stupid women. A taller, cleverer man than herself is not an impossible requirement. However, 5′ 11″ with an IQ (for what its worth) of 140 might be. And what about a 5′ man with and IQ of 160 (although most tests stop at 140 so don’t believe him if he says 160)? I think that 5′ will be more improtant for most women than an IQ of 160.
Zaq 28
I’m not buying into this moody,workaholic, egomaniac stuff. Everyone is different. I do think that a very intelligent man is likely to be opinionated and a little arrogant though. When you are right most of the time that is fairly inevitable.
I agree with Permanentguest and Ruby. A man will feel insecure with someone significantly more intelligent than him. This is borne out by studies that show that in contrast to male attractiveness, female attractiveness falls with increasing IQ.
The requirement for a man of at least equal intelligence sounds reasonable. Unfortunately it isn’t. Men of (practical) high intelligence are in high demand from all women. Women will need to have higher levels of physical attractiveness to compete with the other women, because their intelligence holds less weight for the men they are interested in.
It seems to me that women with significantly above average intelligence, but very average looks, are in the worst possible situation. They find it hard to respect less intelligent men, but they have few options other than perhaps a beta “Sheldon”
Helen 29
Um, Evan… doesn’t your own example negate your point?
You’re a smartie.
You’re in MENSA. How can you expect any of us to believe that you’re a bad catch if your wife is happy and content with you?
And if ONE good brilliant guy exists, why shouldn’t many more? I’m married to a sweetheart who is smarter than me, too. At work, I’m surrounded by loveable men who are smarter than or equal in intelligence to me. As Goldie said, there isn’t a one-to-one correlation between intelligence and bad relational traits. As for social awkwardness, which IS associated with intelligence: I don’t see that as a dealbreaker. There are far worse things a person could be.
helene 30
I get why Evan suggests that smart women should consider dating men of more average intelligence (there are more of them, its less confrontational etc…) but my question is, how do you make it work? I have tried dating these men but generally I find a)they don’t “get” my jokes b) they don’t entirely “get” me (although they are sort of adoringly in awe) and c)they repeatedly exhibit poor judgement because they’re not that smart and don’t seem to think things through properly, and this leads me to lose respect for them. Compared to that, I think I’d rather deal with arrogant and self obsessed!
Ellen 31
One final comment: Goldie, Mensa is no big deal. Experts have identified at least 7 different types of intelligence, including musical and “body”, i.e., athletes. Imo emotional intelligence tops the list given the sway of ego in the world today. High IQ people, and I am on the cusp, should be considered mental athletes only- they arrive at the answer a few minutes/hrs. before everyone else. Big fu&king deal doll!
And creative types are seductive, but the correlation between genius and neuroticism is now well established I think.
Do some research and you’ll learn the best leaders/CEOs have average-high IQs, went to only ok colleges, but were highly motivated for very personal reasons. Barbra Streisand felt compelled to succeed because of a stepfather’s neglect, etc.
Humans have this unnatural need to differentiate themselves, to be different, at all costs. Let’s seek oneness, unity, not stress how very different we are.
Evan Marc Katz 32
Actually, Helene, I didn’t say men of average intelligence. I said men who are not in the 98th percentile. That leaves, oh, everyone from 70-98th percentile available to you. My problem isn’t with smart men. My problem is with smart women who think that only men who are SMARTER are eligible. You can’t date “up” in every category, and, if you do, you’ll discover that those super impressive men aren’t always a great bet for long-term commitment.
Evan Marc Katz 33
I hate to say this, Helen, but I’m somewhat of an anomaly. A very driven guy who owns his own business, makes good money, and prioritizes family above all? A guy who’s off on Fridays and home at 6pm every day? A guy who is naturally sensitive, overcommunicates like a woman, and spends 4 hours a day on the phone talking to women and listening to their needs?
I’m not the only guy in the world who’s like this, but I’m somewhat unusual. Most guys with my demographics aren’t as sensitive and self-aware. And if you spend your whole life holding out for an anomaly, you might spend a lot of time alone.
It would be like a man holding out for a supermodel/Rhodes Scholar because he knows a few. That leaves out a lot of quality women, don’t you think?
(And no, I didn’t mean to compare myself to a supermodel/Rhodes Scholar…that was incidental, to make my point).
The bigger picture is that there are plenty of smart men who aren’t necessarily smarter, successful men who aren’t necessarily rich, cute guys who aren’t necessarily gorgeous…and you should be giving those guys a chance. Are we cool?
Androgynous 34
Hi Zap
Don’t know what you mean when you say women are free to “choose” who they mate with and tend to pick “winners” since they are more invested in their pregnancies. Aren’t you aware that it is only a recent phenomenon (in the context of human history) that women were allowed to choose their mates ? And only in modern anglo “socially advanced” societies. At late as the turn of the century, women had to put up with who their families picked out for them. If they had any choice at all, it was limited to a shortlist her family picked out for her. More often than not, even her family did not have a choice in the matter. The village chief, warlord, duke etc would have a say in it. Back in caveman days, a female would often be forcibly taken, or had to mate with the male whose territory she wandered into looking for food.
If left to their own devices, the female reproductive strategy (as evidenced by primate studies and anthropological studies) would be to mate with a variety of males, some “superior” and dominant and others which are most decidedly not. Scientists can only speculate as to the reasons, where they relate to primates closely related to humans (eg chimps). The speculation is that females mate with a variety of males to confuse paternity – so males (irrespective of their position in the tribe) would not harm their children if there was a chance those children could be biologically theirs. Another speculation is that females “hedge their bets”. Yes, even weak inferior males can rise up the ranks since the superior ones tend to get challenged at lot and often ended up dead or seriously wounded/maimed. Then again, maybe its the variety that is the heart of the matter here. Weak inferior males may have recessive genes from superior dominant ancestors, or have politically powerful relatives.
Sure women these days tend to be fussy but that is mainly because she is now confined to mating only with one male (or one at a time at least). The same may be said of men.
Quinn 35
I’m not going to lie. The man you just described is the man of my dreams.
Why is being well read, opinionated, and conversationalist a bad thing? I love men like this. We connect on much deeper levels. Anything less would be mundane and boring. I love discussing everything but the weather and dancing with the damn stars. And you know what? Im not ashamed of it.
Sure, people just love to say you’re a snob, stuck up etc just because you enjoy intellectual pursuits but I don’t see anything wrong with it. Some people chase women, some chase men, some chase belonging but I chase everything that is knowledge. If I can’t learn something from talking to someone then whats the point? No, I seriously don’t get it.
My brain is a collector of information. Its always scanning for something new and it never cuts off. Am I smarter than the average person? Absolutely not. But while they’re off doing whatever it is that they are doing Im usually somewhere consuming knowledge. I refused to be seen as difficult because I like informed about everything.
If I don’t know something I literally look it up. I don’t care what it is. Its how my brain works. Though, I agree with you. Most people don’t like people like that. My current boyfriend accused me of being a know-it-all because I like to discuss abstract thoughts. In my head I think: “How can one not?” It boggles my mind.
Yes, I agree. Men like this are very acquired tastes. I’d know because I’m a cold, logical woman. Men can’t stand it. Surprisingly cold logical men appreciate it. I find that I’m more apt to warm up to someone when I can discuss “weighty” issues with them.
I will admit though that there is a fine line and if you don’t walk it the right way you can seem really egotistical. When in mixed company I usually just shut down because most people aren’t talking about anything important. Is that a little arrogant of me to think that? Sure, but its also quite arrogant for people to attach negative views to people who prefer this style of communication.
While Im still in college I will nod to the fact that I will probably turn into a workaholic. Though being a workaholic is defined by other people as being such. Why can’t work also be a hobby? Plus, I couldn’t imagine leaving things undone and just going home. I’d probably work at home in the bed right next to my partner who is also working on work. Though I do slow down from time to time. So a person that can’t ever stop is a no-no.
I agree with Evan though. If you’re not turned on by the idea of this then run away very very fast. Very fast.
Gina 36
Evan,
I just wanted to let you know that I have been reading your blog for over a year now and following your sage advice. At the beginning of this year, I listened to you and walked away from a relationship that had no future, even though it broke my heart to do so. As frustrating as online dating is, I listened to you and kept at it. Ten months later, I am now in an amazing relationship with a wonderful man who behaves exactly the way in which you said a man behaves who genuinely cares for a woman. Thank you so much for being the voice of reason and providing such sound advice. Keep up the good work! You are the best!
Greg 37
Hey Androgynous 34
There is no factual basis for your post. Women were not forcibly married in all cultures. The common man did not have the power to force marriage upon any woman. In some cultures men had to ask permission to marry a woman. Some cultures had this in place so that they could help screen potential candidates. Nowadays women can be more selective. Either way I think the likelihood that a woman will be be in a bad or dangerous relationship has remained relatively constant throughout history. In the old days as you say women were forced into bad or even abusive relationships. Now some women choose to be in them due to emotional or psychological factors. I think women are fussy and justifiably so because a bad choice of mate likely will be more detrimental to a woman.
adk 38
#35 Quinn, I feel like you are missing something. Many people have something to teach, not just “cold, hard knowledge.” If you open yourself up on the emotional level, you might have more to learn, even at social gatherings “where no one is talking about anything interesting.” Each person is a unique human being with fascinating background and thoughts on life, even if it’s not in an encyclopedia. I always have found — especially in dating — that I can learn something from everyone’s story.
Goldie 39
@ Quinn: “I’m a cold, logical woman. Men can’t stand it.”
College guys, maybe, can’t stand it, but men will really love it — when you’re married to them. A logical argument, where you show that you can be convinced to agree with the other side if they present their own compelling logical argument, beats screaming, breaking dishes, crying, or administering the silent treatment in order to get your way, every single time. My ex and I used to get into emotional arguments about things. Then I learned to answer in a calm voice and present him with logical reasoning, and I could tell he liked it. Sometimes it even helped him see things from my perspective. Too bad our marriage was already falling apart by then. I wish I’d learned it sooner.
Before anyone says that there are other ways to argue, like telling your opponent how you feel: “when you just said we should use our life savings to buy a boat, it really hurt me deep inside and made me feel insecure…” – nah. In my experience, this doesn’t work on guys. They like logic, and dismiss the touchy-feely stuff as another case of the woman being irrational.
Basically, from what I’ve seen, by the time men enter adulthood, most of them are already biased against women. They expect us to be irrational creatures who go through life guided entirely by their feelings, and who cannot understand logic. When they see that it is not the case, they are relieved.
Saint Stephen 40
@Quinn Said: (#35)
Sure, people just love to say you’re a snob, stuck up etc just because you enjoy intellectual pursuits but I don’t see anything wrong with it. Some people chase women, some chase men, some chase belonging but I chase everything that is knowledge. If I can’t learn something from talking to someone then whats the point? No, I seriously don’t get it.
If you date a clergy man you will learn something new. If you meet a burglar you will learn something new. If you talk to a combat veteran you learn something new. No matter how highly intellectual you are – people you meet will always know something that you don’t. Do you think your biblical knowledge would be on par with a clergy man who’s a bible scholar? And if that clergy man is looking to date or marry his equal in knowledge-wise he’d be deliberately or unconsciously eliminating more than 80% of women from his dating pool without factoring compatibility and emotional maturity.
And why do you consider yourself highly intellectual if you only wanna discuss topics that interests you? I consider people as highly intellectuals if they can carry on a descent conversation on topics they have no interest in. I have an uncle who’s a college professor, he talks endlessly on topics that interest him. OTOH my late elder bro was just a college grad but he could weigh in on virtually any topic being discussed. Which of them do you think women would want to be around? Which of them do you think has more dating options?
Have you ever seen love before? Have you ever seen emotion before? Why do you believe they exist? because people feel them? I’d be curious to see how you can use logic to describe/explain emotion and love.
Furthermore, what kinda relationship do you think you would have when cold hard logic meets cold hard logic? A loveless marriage/relationship is what you are setting yourself up for.
Evan Marc Katz 41
@Goldie – Wonderful point about logical women. In my 20′s, I looked for the smartest woman I could date. In my 30′s, I was just looking for the sanest.
Sayanta 42
Goldie and Evan
I agree that logical reasoning is great. But feelings and emotions are a big part of being human, and seen as ‘bad’ in a male-dominated society. I feel (god, there I go using that ugly word) that suppressing a natural urge to expressing emotion equals inauthenticity. Assuming you are- as I am- a feelings- oriented woman… So are we never supposed to cry in front of men? Get angry? Just because men hate emotions doesn’t make them right.
Evan Marc Katz 43
Sayanta – You’re too smart to turn this into a black and white issue. No one said that you should have NO feelings or NEVER cry in front of men. You see why I get frustrated on this message board? Because what I’m saying and what you’re hearing are two entirely different things.
What Goldie and I said is that men appreciate women who have a firm grasp on reality and can listen to reason, instead of letting potentially irrational emotions predominate.
If I have a conversation with an ex on Facebook, my wife wouldn’t think anything of it. An emotional woman who’s been hurt before might start giving me the third degree.
Men REALLY appreciate when we can discuss things with you and have you accept our answers and our apologies, instead of turning every emotion you feel into some referendum about our future. Does my wife cry from time to time? Of course she does. But she never flies off the handle at me – and that’s why I’m married to her.
Goldie 44
I just spoke from experience. I was shocked the first time I saw it in action. For the first time in years, I was able to get a grown man to stop yelling and start listening to me in the middle of a heated argument. It was like magic. That was the only thing I said — I tried it, it works, the end. My point was actually to tell Quinn that being a cold, logical woman isn’t all bad.
Sayanta 45
Point taken — I guess I just know so many men completely cut off from their emotions that this just hit a sore spot with me
Evan Marc Katz 46
And this is also why “feeling” messages, as taught by some other relationship experts, are very limited in their ability to connect with men. While no man wants to be the cause of your tears, we also don’t like having our lives hijacked by every feeling that comes up. Highly sensitive people – both men and women – are extremely difficult to date.
Ray 47
Quinn@35
You say you are ‘cold and logical’ because you enjoy intellectual pursuits. I don’t consider that cold or logical at all.
Cold is being basically dead to your own emotional state and the emotional state of others.
Logical (to me) means being able to pull apart the ‘emotional’ from the ‘rational’… and it isn’t a quality only or even mainly men possess.
If you feel connected to a man through your mutual intellect and ability to discuss a wide range of topics, then that seems like a good start!
Just like some people like bike riding and jogging with their partner. Are they supposed to give up looking for someone who likes to bike ride or jog? Maybe, if you run ultra-marathons… it is enough to expect one’s partner cheer you at the finish line.
Maybe that is the point Evan is making. One doesn’t need the equivalent of an ultramarathoner (ie super intellect) to be happy.
nathan 48
“Men REALLY appreciate when we can discuss things with you and have you accept our answers and our apologies, instead of turning every emotion you feel into some referendum about our future.” Yes, I totally agree with this point!
Also, I think everyone might do well to study up on Emotional Intelligence. Daniel Goleman wrote a best selling book about it several years ago, and in a lot of ways, the kind of healthy communication that people seem to crave isn’t “cold and logical,” nor “overly emotional,” but really a blend of everything human in a way that reaches the particular person.
Ray 49
nathan@48
Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman is a fabulous book. The two qualities most necessary for Emotional Intelligence? Empathy and ability to delay gratification…. interestingly, these are qualities that can be tested at a very young age too. Fascinating book.
I’ve also read from some very good sources, that CEOs tend to have some of the lowest emotional intelligence among the pool of employees. One wonders if the qualities necessary to be a CEO require the opposite traits. Hmmm… Some food for thought.
henriette 50
Many of you commenters are staring at the trees, missing the forest of Evan’s piece. Basically, he’s saying that we should re-examine our some of our rigid views of what we can and cannot find sexy. We should never accept man who is not kind, thoughtful or honourable. But some guys who are not conventionally good looking can become devastatingly attractive once we get to know them. And we can find real wisdom in some fellows who aren’t bright in the way we thought we needed. Is that really so hard to swallow?
mellie charnalia 51
TOTALLY on point!!! I used to look for super smart, ambitious, talkative guys but I’m finding that I’m sort of running away from that now. Emotional intelligence/capacity is what I’m looking for. But even then, I’m not expecting a man to act like my girlfriends (I used to!). So, I agree with the part about being rational and logical (and I used to get pissed off when I read that). Often I think when women react to men emotionally, it’s because they’re making some meaning out of something that the man didn’t intend at all. We are remembering old stuff from childhood or abusive/neglectful relationships. I think there’s a difference between a man who’s emotionally immature/illiterate/abusive/unavailable and a man who’s just not into analyzing/processing every emotion. Sometimes we may mistakenly think the latter is the former….? Granted, that difference can be hard to tell sometimes
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Lucy 52
Hi Evan
I am very intelligent, having done Law at an Ivy League university. So did my ex boyfriend (who was a very big alpha male). One of the problems we had was exactly as you mentioned – the intellectual attraction sparks too easily turning to tension as we are both strong willed and opinionated and excellent at arguing a point. He said it was one of the things that turned him off me. I was sad because on the one hand, smart guys seem to like smart girls, but on the other, if I actually ACT smart, giving my opinions and men don’t like me (or perhaps alpha males just don’t like me as I had a bad habit of only dating smart alphas who impressed me). I have the flaws of ‘smart’ women that you listed: opinionated, know it all, moody, sensitive, but very very in touch with my emotions – not cold and heartless. My question is, if ‘smart’ people are so difficult to date, and sensitive people are difficult to date, this pretty much renders me a horrible partner, no? How do I overcome the flaws that come with having too much head and too much heart? Do I need to get a lot of therapy just to be acceptable as a partner? I have friends who think I’m great and dateable, and people think I’m generally a great person, but I now feel discouraged, thinking that I am a dating “bad bet” and destined not to get married because of my smart/sensitive flaws (I’m 26 and single).
Lucy 53
It seems like I have to date a beta because alphas find my challenging their intellectual arguments on X issue with my own take on the issue/pointing out the weaknesses of their points is frustrating. Regardless, I LOVE to learn from alphas and find their discussion stimulating, though often arrogant. However, I feel angry to think that if I want to be around such smart alphas and not get dumped is to morph into a lady who always nods agreeably to his opinions and doesn’t ever really critically examine them and threaten his ego. They want me to be smart but always defer to their intellectual/decision making power. I think I would have a hard time doing this, as it goes against my natural personality. Yet, with betas, I have not found one which stokes my intellectual fire and makes me feel like I learn from them in the same way. Are there betas like this out there and I just haven’t found them because alphas seems to hunt me down as they look for smart, accomplished and above average attractive young women such as myself?
Ria 54
Funnily enough, one of the dreams women have is to have a guy Evan described. Which isn´t news. But here comes the catch – in the end of all the list of the characteristics Evan described, they secretly wish to add one tiny characteristic bit:”…and loves me, and is dedicated and commited to me (against all odds of his nature) forever.”
Which never happens, because that isn´t in his make up and should you look deep down and examine how you really feel, you know that you arent a match, but you dont like this feeling like you are “not good enough.” So we want to be exception of the rule and “win him” anyway. Another hard work less paid…cos sadly, when you cant afford Ferrari, you need to drive more affordable for your budget.
As for Evan describing himself in this case, my opinion is that he married a very exceptional and special lady, who IS exception of the rule. Not everyone can make a man like this to commit:) it has to be a special lady.
sthrnphoenix 55
My entire family is composed of extremely intelligent (97% and up) men and women. Those that are relationship-successful are the ones that focus on emotional intelligence and the qualities that make a person a good partner: loving demeanor, patience, kindness, and responsibility among other characteristics. My father always counseled me not to hide my intelligence, but not to put it on display. Though I value intelligence, I honestly value the other qualities I listed above much more. I got lucky. I’ve been seeing a wonderfully kind, patient, loving, and responsible man that my father, a true genius, loves and called ” a really nice guy” just this morning. He treats me and my children extremely well, fits in with my family, and fits into my life. He’s got a beta personality, but is not a pushover. He’s also smarter than me. That wasn’t something I was looking for or even expected, but it impresses me. It just doesn’t impress me as much as his loving character. Thanks, Evan, for the advice you’ve given that has helped me to meet this wonderful man and maintain a healthy and happy relationship with him.
Sayanta 56
Mellie
51, I really like your last point about the difference to keep in mind…I should def keep that in mind
Anonymous 57
This blog has really opened my mind to other possibilities. For example, I thought it was normal to want to date a man I considered my equal in looks, education, career etc. After reading the information here, I learned to be more “open minded” and date men that I wouldn’t normally consider.
I ended up dating a man who physically revolted me, had bad breath, a big belly AND wouldn’t pay for dates. (The fake purse grab backfired on me). He was jealous of my career success, as we are in the same field, and constantly questioned me for advice on how to improve his success at work.
When he started asking for sex, I had to end things. I was feeling lower than a prostitute – at least they get paid for “dates” – I was paying for everything!
I repeated some of your ideas to a female life coach, who said that I had a lot of negative associations that she would help me with. She truly believes that I can find a man who I find attractive and consider an equal, and is supporting me in rebuilding my self esteem.
Prior to reading this blog, I didn’t think it was possible for a man to be writing such negative propaganda against women with standards. Evan, your advice neglects the fact that some men are opportunists who will milk a woman for money, career advice, sex, and her self-esteem.
I’ll be careful in future. Thanks for opening my mind.
m 58
“It’s women who need men who are Taller. Smarter. Richer.”
As usual, EMK, not the problem.
The problem is men who need women who are shorter, less intelligent, and have less money.
I was Tweeting at a man who tried to poll ladies saying “Would you go out with a man who is shorter?” I explained to him that I had my own empirical basis for concluding that was not the problem. I’m 5’6″, so if I’m wearing 2″ heels for a date — hardly skyscrapers, mind you — the men who have the biggest problem with me are the ones who have lied and said they’re 5’9″ or 5’10″. They get all sulky and insulted.
I’m 5’6″. Hardly a giantess.
He Tweeted back and admitted that yes, if he was 5’10″, he wouldn’t date a woman who was 6′ — so it’s safe for me to conclude he himself is precisely the type I was describing.
It’s all in the framing. The problem is not women who want “more than” — the *real* problem is the men who want their women to be “less than”.
And we don’t talk about that enough.
Happy holidays, everyone.
Tina 59
Yes, of course I want a man who is smarter than me. Just because I should not respect him otherwise. I could not love him too.
But here is the thing: there is no so many smart men out there. As there is no so many really beautiful women.
And the things never are two-dimensional only. The smart women want not only smarter than them men but they also want this man to be a nice, good man, and crazy about them too. You, the men firstly look for beautiful women and then want she to be nice, loving and interesting woman.
And I know, most people are with somebody just because they do not want to be alone, they want to be “normal” people in some relationship because our society is in this way. But the rest of the people (the remarkable ones) want to be with someone similar to them. We all ALWAYS have a choice though.
As for this that the smarter women are selfish and arrogant, that depends on the woman character, not the intellect.
*Sorry for my English but this isn’t my mother language
happy 60
the issue is really smart women sometimes will come up as unfeminine and too masculine ->masculine is the kind of energy he is used to debating with on the job
Zaq 61
m@58
Utter nonsense
I have no problems whatsoever with dating women taller than me. Women are hung up on height, men less so.How many men are going to have problems wanting to date Charlize Theron
It’s the same with money. Women project onto men their own feelings.
Sorry if you cannot stand shorter men, that is YOUR problem
Less wealthy – YOUR problem !
Less intelligent – YOUR problem !
Men, for the most part are not hung up on these issues
Ruby 62
M #58
I agree with you, and don’t think your comments are nonsense at all. I’ve certainly encountered men who thought I was too tall for them at 5’8″, even men who were over 6 feet tall. I’ve encountered men who thought i was too smart for them, or not wealthy enough. Of course, men have preferences about these things – I don’t believe it when I hear that men only want someone “cute” and “fun”.
Stacey 63
M#58
I concur. Most men like being “more”, nothing wrong with it, thats what the society tells them they should be: strong, provider, leader. And it’s just so much easier to be all that with a petit kindergarden teacher than it is with. 5’7″ lawyer.
Ray 64
m@58
right on! I’ve dated men who had less education… made less money… were shorter. None of those things are important to me.
I screen for character #1. I do not flash my education around, and the topic of money never comes up (unless they bring it up).
But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone out on a few dates with men who have said “I’d never date a woman who made more than me”, or ditched me after learning my diploma was bigger than theirs. I even had a guy tell me that all his friends told him “whoever has the money has the control”.
So, yea, I”m totally calling BS on this one. Sure, there are women (and men too) who wear their accomplishments around like a tacky sandwich board sign on the street corner… Love ME because of my stuff!! Yea, that IS tacky.
But I’ve definately met men whose own insecurities kept them looking for women they deemed ‘less’ than them. That is the crux of it. As a result, I just generally avoid people for friendships or romance who view every interaction as a power-struggle. Or who define people in terms of labels… ‘alpha’, ‘beta’, ‘feminist’… whatever.
Evan Marc Katz 65
m and Ray – what you fail to get, every time you come here to blame men is that it doesn’t matter. This is a site for women. Advice is designed to help those women adjust. What a woman can control is how she deals with men…not how men deal with her. So if you meet shallow men who are intimidated by you? So what? Don’t date him. What you CAN control is getting over that very common female need for a man who is taller, smarter, richer, etc. I’m not making this up. ALL of my clients feel this way. So stop calling BS. It’s not BS. It’s my advice to women. Advice to men can be found somewhere else.
Sheri 66
I was left by my narcissistic, self-absorbed, Ph.D. “genius” a couple of years ago, a man who treated me like “less than” and left me dangling for years, although we were officially engaged. The emotional devastation compelled me to became determined to find the opposite kind of man, one who simply adored me and was easy-going. This man, however, cannot spell or speak properly sometimes, does not lift a book or newspaper, has no passions or interests other than his 2 dogs, and has not a lot of friends. He is kind, loving, devoted. BUT. I am so bored, even after 2 years. The conversation is so dull I find my eyes glazing over sometimes. I am no genious, but I feel like I am the leader of this couple. He can’t make a decision without checking with me.
Saint Stephen 67
Sheri Said: (#66)
I am no genious, but I feel like I am the leader of this couple. He can’t make a decision without checking with me.
If he’s decisions are going to affect you – why should he make them without checking it with you? Maybe you inherently don’t desire an equal relationship and that’s fine, but i’ll advice you to you stop feeling like a leader and view yourself as an equal participant or look for someone who will be happy to lead you.
Ray 68
evan@65
I don’t believe either of us have failed to ‘get’ it… I don’t believe we are blaming men. Just giving examples of insecure ones. Sometimes it is helpful for women to know what to avoid too.
When you said ‘you’, I’m sure you meant hypothetical ‘you’ as in your readers… not me.
I’ve never had that issue… I learned to go for character first a long time ago… and I’d argue that women need to seek out men who date for ‘character first’ too. For instance, the ones who’ve always dated younger women, or shorter women, or ‘beautiful’ women, or ones who make less than them?? Pass.
Ruby 69
Sheri #66
Sounds like you might have over-reacted by going too far in the other direction after your ex left you. It’s possible to find a man who is both smart AND caring, and who does not bore you to tears.
Peter 70
@Androgyous
“Aren’t you aware that it is only a recent phenomenon (in the context of human history) that women were allowed to choose their mates ?”
You can substitute women by ‘people’. The men in arranged marriages generally have no more choice than the women. And while mothers and aunts may consult the matchmakers, even in deepest Pakistan, the girls in the overwhelming majority of cultures have the practical right of veto, as did the daughters of Medieval European nobility. Medieval apprentices may not always have chosen to marry their Master’s daughters but it was a reliable way into the business so long as they weren’t rejected by the girl. The first time or so, she might count on another apprentice albeit younger coming along later. So women could usually veto men who are not smart rather than choose men who are smart. (BTW the Pakistani boys don’t get a veto unlike their sisters). What young men and women didn’t get was the right to choose their mate at random on the basis of sexual desire. Agricultural societies can of course be rather more coercive about mate choice because the rulers generally have a monopoly of serious violence. So for example, regiments of Zulu men were ordered to marry age/clans of young Zulu women and support them but this was not general. (Shaka Zulu notoriously put 35 000 young men and women to death because he changed his mind about their marriage arrangements and some of the girls protested because they liked their already chosen future husbands. It was the girls who protested.).
However, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is about 120,000 years old. The 6000 year long behaviour of peasants tied to the land or 3000 years of urbanisation is not the largest part of our social history when measured in generations of ancestors. Most of that time was spent in small groups of hunter gatherers. Modern small groups of hunter gatherers have societies that are quite unlike the imaginings of self appointed Evolutionary Psychologists who seem to imagine that our ancestors lived in a state of wild anarchy. For example, hunter gatherers usually have very elaborate kinship rules to prevent inbreeding (Eskimo/Inuit, Aborigines, Bushmen, Chuchksi, the group around Lake Tangynika whose name I forget etc.). Neither party to a marriage has much choice, given the rules and given the limited number of mates available within the immediate clan or even in the larger tribe. The first girl in her generation may be able to veto the least clever of two or three available boys but the third girl and third boy are going to be stuck with each other. Higher status males may eventually get more women but they will be the widows of a brother or cousin attached to him because of his status, not conquests due to his sexual “Alphaness”. ”Alphaness”, as used in modern marketing jargon for dating courses, would quickly get a man killed in a hunter gatherer society. There is an argument that until 30,000 years ago sexual anarchy may have prevailed but by 30,000 years ago we were definitely creatures of culture rather than anarchy. We have been neither gorillas nor baboons for a long time.
Modern urban society is a wholly new experiment in mating strategy. Limited choice within a small group was a form of security. Assortative mating due to either sex having the power to choose personal characteristics is one new strand greatly reinforced by modern life. Now the clever may choose the clever for marriage on a scale never before seen. We are not prepared for this. I suggest that women seek taller, richer, smarter for the lost security of clan life as much as sexuality as such. We are evolved to pair bond with pretty much anybody when required.
Next attempt I may have time to write a shorter comment? Androgynous pressed a button.
Greg 71
@Ray
I don’t think you understand men or how men think. I don’t know any man who has a problem dating taller women. Of course, most men I am friends with happen to be taller than 75% of women in the country. And really its only been women who have ever voiced major height preferences. One woman told me that she wished I was taller, even though I was already taller than her. That’s crazy. Also I’m an engineer so I happen to make more than most women. However, how much money a woman makes is not something I’m even concerned about. I’ve been interested in women who have the potential to make more than me once they finished grad school, but these women seemed to be too busy to date. Of course men prefer beautiful women. Doesn’t everyone? Yet I see more average women in good relationships than the hot ones. All of my hot female friends except one, are either getting played by losers or have already been divorced by age 28. In reality solid relationship oriented men don’t put too much stock into the superficial things. You should probably stop complaining and instead work on finding better men. Men are not always going to behave how you think they should. It would also help if you listened to Evan and had something to bring to the table besides beauty, money or an education because that is NOT what makes a man love you.
Ray 72
greg@71
There is a dating advice website named after a popular B-52′s song that featured this topic exactly. (taller women and shorter men). The originator of the post (a man) said he’d have a hard time dating a taller woman and asked other men if they had the same problem. Most of the other men did. Said they’d feel emasculated.
Maybe 2-3 out of the bunch said they didn’t have a problem with it. Sure, by no means is that website representative of the male gender, but it is interesting, doncha think?
I don’t know what you are talking about in your last paragraph. People don’t always behave how you think they should. Has nothing to do with gender. People love you or hate you for all kinds of rational or irrational reasons. I think women (and men) would do better to start treating each other as individuals and not stereotypes.
Greg 73
@Ray
Well those guys are mostly morons. Anyways it doesn’t really matter because on average most men are taller than women. So I don’t really see your point. Unless you a 6′ tall woman your still shorter than most men.
Joe 74
Re: height. IMO, men don’t bother pursing women who are taller than they are simply because experience has taught them that women who are taller than they are will not date them. It’s not because dating a taller woman is emasculating, it’s because being rejected by them is emasculating.
Re: intelligence. often people who flaunt their “intellect” are really not very deep at all. All they have is at the surface, and once you get below that intelligence, there’s little there.
Sheela 75
I am a 27 year old girl just married to a man who isnt that intelligent type. I often compare him with my friends who are more informed and as you say great conversationalist. The reason I like such people is that I feel I get something from them. They show me a different world, a different aspect of things…which is very exciting in day to day life. Living with a partner you also want to grow intellectually, or to say you want to have a sense that you too are getting something from the man. In my case, I am person who likes intelligent people and when I see my husband doesn’t know the weighty issues or frowns when I express my views on drugs, prostitution, drinking, marriage etc, I think of him as someone who is very traditional and conventional. I hold a master’s degree and so does he. But…spark just doesnt flow between us. And this affects other aspects of our lives too.
ofwdating 76
cool! this is just stated reality…that unfortunately, most women don’t see. (which is just too bad)
Goldie 77
@ Joe, just because you can tell right away that the person is smart, doesn’t mean they’re flaunting their intellect. The opposite is also true, just because a person comes off as not so bright, doesn’t mean he’s a modest guy trying not to flaunt his intellect.
When dating online, when I wanted to determine a person’s intellect level, I used to ask them what they like to do for fun. That’s really the only question you need — it’s a non-threatening question that they’re happy to answer, and their answers tell it all. Sometimes they make it easy for you and put telling things on their profile. One guy had this under favorite books: “lol not really into that stuff”. Unfortunately I’d been a little scatterbrained about reading his profile, so I saw this little tidbit 15 minutes before leaving to go on our first date… talked to him for over an hour and confirmed that his profile tells the truth — my dog is more intelligent than this poor guy.
Also, it’s not just a man’s intellect, it’s what he chooses to do with it. There are highly intelligent people out there who just don’t like using their brain outside of their normal work hours. So in answer to my question they’d say they like hanging at the bar, or watching TV. Also a red flag.
Saint Stephen 78
Goldie @77
All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
sarahrahrah! 79
I agree that it is best to avoid egotistical, self-centered males and the pool of highly intelligent men seems to have more of them than the general male population. That said, I have a really hard time giving up on intelligence in men. I completely agree with Goldie and others that *it is what they do with their intelligence* that is important, but isn’t your biggest sex organ supposed to be your brain? For me, having a great conversation is a huge turn on. I love word play and that kind of flirtation. While it definitely doesn’t trump character, I would have a really hard time giving that up in a man. I can understand Evan’s point about avoiding the Bill Clintons of the world and I have to admit that being verbally gifted seems to be a strong element in being a charming manipulator.
Hmmmmm…. I’m really going to have think about this.
SearchingSally 80
I disagree with Evan. Intelligent people can learn to live outside of their heads. All It takes is awareness that something is missing in life when spending all of their time analyzing everything, arguing or spouting factoids just for the sake of being right. What is missing is connecting. That is where the convesations about breakfast cereal, wallpaper and if the Richardsons are being nice or if they just want to show off their new hot tub. With that awareness the smart person also has to have the will to connect and to seek out how to connect. Some intelligent men do this.
For every difficult smart man, I know from experience that there is a less smart man who is obsessed with sports statistics or lives for Beer, or likes to sleep 14 hours a day on weekends.
Looking for the 98th percentile does limit our pool, but not because more of those people are harder to get along with, only because you are already limiting yourself to one man in fifty.
Kathy 81
I am divorced from a man who was Ivy league educated plus a law degree, self-made, very successful. His IQ is close to mine within 3 points. He is very narcissistic, detached, and loves the sound of his own voice. I am now in a relationship with a guy who is above average intelligence, went to a selective prep school, a top tier college and went into his father’s business. But he is not as smart as I. Not even close. You know what? He has to ask me what words mean when I speak to him, we can’t play word games like Scrabble, he refuses to watch Jeopardy with me, he makes sarcastic comments about me being to smart, and I have to edit what I say so that he “gets” what I am talking about. Granted my IQ is an outlier on the Bell curve, but heck, this relationship is challenging just because he can’t keep up with my mind. He is mostly very sweet, attentive and compassionate, but all that falls away when he feels “threatened” by my intellect.
Margaret Thatcher 82
I kind of disagree with this post. I do insist that a man be smarter than I am, generally by a considerable amount. BUT I also expect to compromise on things like looks (the only rule is that I must be attracted than him, but 5’8, chubby, hairy, badly dressed doesn’t bother me.) money (I don’t even WANT a man with money!), power, confidence, etc.
I don’t really see the problem with having one thing you won’t budge on, or possibly two if you’re young/attractive/charismatic enough to back it up…as long as you’re willing to make compromises in other areas.
And neuroticism, pretentiousness, etc? I find it endearing. I know this puts me very much in the minority, but it is what it is.