Why Breaking Up Isn’t Always Personal, and How You Can Make Him Want to Stay

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Hi Evan,

I’ve been following your blog and reading “Why He Disappeared“ — but I’m still a bit confused. I understand what you say about letting go of controlling what a man does, however I don’t agree when you say it has nothing to do with you. It has EVERYTHING to do with you! It’s a personal rejection.

But also you discuss in the book that maybe you did do something on the date that made him not want to see you again? So how does that have nothing to do with you? Can you provide any clarification?

Thanks! I do enjoy your work, TK

Dear TK,

If you’ve read “Why He Disappeared,” you’re well-aware that I think my wife is a relationship genius. I’d go so far to say that I think just about ANY man could be married to her and be happy; that’s how good a person she is.

I’ve also gone on the record to state that she’s nothing like the woman I expected to marry: she’s older, Catholic, more conservative, less book-smart (not a LOT older, not VERY Catholic, not VERY conservative, and certainly not stupid as some readers like to suggest I’m saying.) But it’s no secret that I spent 35 years looking for a female clone of myself…and consistently failed at the task.

So the entire time I’m dating my wife, I’m mentally dissecting her. This is what we do when we don’t have that “you just know” feeling. We dissect. We find fault.

Trouble existed purely in my head because my girlfriend didn’t live up to this fantasy avatar I created for my future wife.

Maybe I could find someone who can introduce me to new literature and music…

Maybe I could find someone 5 years younger and have more time before having kids….

Maybe I could find someone who shares my Jewish/liberal/atheist point-of-view…

Now, it’s important to emphasize that our relationship was perfect. Any troubles were ones that existed purely in my head because my girlfriend didn’t live up to this fantasy avatar I created for my future wife.

As I contemplated proposing, I thought about what was most important in life – the things I’m always telling my readers: friendship, laughter, values, loyalty, honesty, kindness, generosity, the ability to be loved unconditionally.

When I looked at it this way, it was a no-brainer.

Of COURSE, I’d propose to my girlfriend. She’s the best person in the entire world. She’d push me around in a wheelchair if I got hit by a bus. What else could matter more than that?

Not whether she’s read the new Jonathan Franzen book…

Not whether she agrees with me about what happens when we die…

Not whether she thinks that Obamacare is good or bad…

These are the things that most singles think actually matter, when, in fact, they have very little to do with how you get along on a day-to-day basis.

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70 Comments »Filed Under Dating

70 Responses to “Why Breaking Up Isn’t Always Personal, and How You Can Make Him Want to Stay”

Katarina Phang 1

Great piece, Evan. It’s good to hear from a man’s perspective what makes him tick when it comes to making him fall in love with a woman and deciding to be with her for the rest of his life.

I think the greatest gift a woman can give a man is being happy in her own skin, confident, nurturing, trusting and soft.

Don’t live in your head, just relax and trust… That’s very enticing for a man.
Karl R 2

TK said: (original post)
“I don’t agree when you say it has nothing to do with you. It has EVERYTHING to do with you! It’s a personal rejection.”

Is it? The last woman who broke up with me did so because I didn’t have a car. That’s not about me; it’s about a car. I’ve never owned a car, yet many women have happily dated me while completely aware of that. How is that personal?

I broke up with the previous woman because she was too immature for me. Of course, she was also 11 years younger than me. If I had run across someone like her 15 years earlier, we would have been a very good match. As she gets older, she’ll become more mature. (That’s what happened to me.) How is the age gap between us supposed to be a flaw inherent to her?

The previous woman I dated was wrapped up in her career and research. She had little time for dating, and when her work got busy, she’d completely disappear. We both think very highly of each other, but I want more than that out of a relationship. How is that personal?

The previous woman broke up with me because she wanted lots of kids and I didn’t want any. We were a great couple, but we had mutually exclusive goals. How is that personal?

I’m sure some women find me unattractive (though my little sister is the only one who has said so to my face). But there are other women who dated and/or pursued me because they thought I was gorgeous. If a woman finds me unattractive, why would that be about my looks instead of her opinion?

My current girlfriend finds me attractive. She doesn’t want kids either. We both maintain a life/work balance where we can have a great relationship. She’s significantly older than me, but we’re close to the same maturity level. And she respects that I inconvenience myself to be more environmentally friendly.

TK asked: (original post)
“But also you discuss in the book that maybe you did do something on the date that made him not want to see you again? So how does that have nothing to do with you?”

I’ve dated women who were raped; women who were in therapy; women with kids; and women who were unemployed. I’ve dated a woman who had been molested by her father; a woman who suffered from chronic depression; a woman who had an STD; and a woman who had previously been a stripper. Odds are very high that you can tell me your darkest secret without me flipping out over it.

But if you start telling me your deepest, darkest secrets on the first date … we won’t have a second one.
Melissa 3

Hi Evan,
I took your advice a while back and just chilled out (which is hard for me because I am a naturally controlling person as it is) and just had a good time while waiting for my boyfriend to come around……..and he did!!! It took several months and a lot of patience. He was a commitment-phob and made it clear from the beginning that he didn’t want anything serious and just wanted to have fun. I went back and forth on staying with him but I could see that under this big front he was putting up he was a good hearted guy. Not to mention a good dad which I think is very telling of who a person really is. So now we have been together for 1 year and have a place together and he tells me he loves me several times a day. I never thought the ”L” word would come out of this guy! And better yet, I let him be the first to say it which is totally out of character for me! We have even talked about marriage (wow). Thank you so much for all the great advice! I really think I have found the “one”. I love your blogs. Many a times I have found myself ready to freak out at my boyfriend over trust issues of my own, and many a times your blog has stopped me from doing that by seeing things from a mans perspective. Im sure my boyfriend would thank you for that too, lol. Peace!!
Melissa
Luxe 4

This is great advise.. but hard to practice Hard to not take it personally when feelings are involved. Best way for me to handle it is to think of it if the situation was turned around.
Diane 5

This blog entry and the last newsletter I received from Evan both had to do with Trust and controlling/knowing the future. Evan, as usual, gave great advice in this blog and in that newsletter. It made me thing about two things though, which is related to his answer here and in the newsletter:

1. It is in women’s nature to want to know the unknown and the future. That’s why many of us like astrology and such, it attempts to ‘predict the future’. Once we starting dating a man, we often want to know “is he the one”? Going from meeting him to be married to him our heads in a month–freaking the poor men out! So this tends to be something we have to tame in ourselves, give up control over knowing the future and be PRESENT in the moment. Yoga does a great job of training to be present. PATIENCE also comes to mind-difficult to be patient.

I’m not saying is every woman’s issue, but I bet many of us can totally relate to this concept–afterall, this is what the myth about Bluebeard is all about!

2. Trust, Evan brings it up here again. I was dating a man who was doing everything the man in the newsletter was saying, he treated me like gold and I felt like a queen with him. But still, in the beginning, I doubted him. He sensed this and one day he said, “Trust me”. That blew me away. He was so right, I wasn’t trusting him or his actions–what else did he need to do to show me what he felt for me? This was a huge lesson for me. From then on, I relaxed, let go and trusted him. It was one of the greatest feelings to be in that position. It is also the most vulnerable to be. That’s what love is all about I guess!

Just a couple of thoughts…
Zann 6

I think Evans advice on this one is completely solid. But I still understand exactly what the writer means when she declares, “it’s got EVERYTHING to do with you,” and how difficult it is to NOT see it as personal rejection. Because it feels personal, it feels bad, and it feels all about you — something you either did or didn’t do, something you were too much of or not enough of — the possibilities are endless. Truthfully, when I’ve been in that miserable place, the last thing I want is to hear someone telling me, “It’s not about you. It’s him.” It’s almost an insult, because your sadness and hurt feels so legitimate. I don’t like to suffer any more than anyone else, but when I feel hurt, I want the pain acknowledged. Feelings and emotions are utterly human but they’re not reality — you can feel rejected without being a “reject.” You can feel loss when someone you love leaves you, but that doesn’t mean you’re a loser. The most comforting thing a very grounded friend said to me once when I was a wreck after a breakup was simply, “His loss.” That helped me more than all the rationalizations, the parsing, the venting, the attempts at making it make sense. When I looked at it that way, it still seemed personal but left my sense of value intact. Whether my ex ever felt any great loss, I’ll never know, and it didn’t matter. It also helps to remember that whether in or outside of an intimate relationship, you’re still you. You’re the most constant thing in your life, and if someone chooses to let you go, their loss. You just can’t win ‘em all.
JuJu 7

Yeah, I also didn’t understand the taking it personally bit initially. All I could think was, when I reject a man, it’s very much personal! It has everything to do with him! Even saying that *he* shouldn’t take it personally more often than not would feel strange and unjustified.
Lance 8

Getting dumped or losing out on a dating prospect isn’t a rejection of you, it’s a rejection of the combination of the two people, ie a relationship. In other words, he or she is rejecting your partnership, not you personally. This is what I tell myself, because when you take the sex and attraction out of the equation, we can usually find a way to have a friend relationship.
I see it much like sales. When you make a cold call and get rejected, the person on the other end isn’t rejecting you as a person. He might think you’re perfectly likeable. What he’s rejecting is your pitch or proposition. That’s it. If you can keep that in mind, you’ll be alright.
Goldie 9

@ Lance #8 – I see it rather as a job search process (maybe because I’d turn down any cold call, lol) You may be an amazing specialist, but not a good fit for a certain job, and that’s not a judgement on you – it just means that, if you take that job, you’re not going to like it or have a good time. Likewise, you may turn down a seemingly good job if you think it’s not going to be a good fit for you.

Or, you can take a job that looks good on paper (location, pay, benefits) and hate it.

First dates are a lot like job interviews. Except most people are much better at their job interviews than at their first dates, for whatever reason.

@ Karl #2 – apologize for being personal as well as OT, but I am so intrigued, I’m all but losing sleep over this. You already said you’re not in NYC or any other metro area with good public transportation. Without a car, how do you get around? I’d love to not depend on my car so much, and my 17yo thinks the same way, but where we live, pretty much the only thing you can do without a car is walk your dog – that’s if you’re lucky and your street has sidewalks. (You still need a car to take that dog to the vet, though.) The closest job I’ve ever had was ten miles away from where I lived. (I also had one that was 65 miles one way.) I just don’t understand how to get around needing to have a car, unless you’re someplace like NYC.

Of course, your answer may turn out being “on my Harley, of course”
Karl R 10

JuJu said: (#7)
“when I reject a man, it’s very much personal! It has everything to do with him! Even saying that *he* shouldn’t take it personally more often than not would feel strange and unjustified.”

I’d like to challenge that justification of yours. Would you mind giving us a few examples (maybe five) of reasons you’ve rejected men (real examples, not hypothetical)? I would like a chance to examine those reasons to see if they have “everything to do with him”.

To give a couple generic examples:

1) If you reject a man because you don’t find him attractive, is that actually about him? It’s about what traits you find attractive/unattrctive. It’s also about how much emphasis you place on physical appearance (as opposed to traits like personality or values).

If you reject him because other people find him unattractive, that says even more about you. It indicates that you believe his appearance will affect how others perceive you. It also says you value other people’s opinion of you and the status you could gain/lose by having an attractive/unattractive boyfriend.

2) If you reject a man because he lacks self-confidence, is it really about that trait? Based on my own experiences, I gained the same dating benefits of having self-confidence just by learning to fake it.

At that time I really admired one of my “more confident” friends. He was the type that women threw themselves at. One day his wife told me that he had self-esteem issues. She mentioned it in the same matter-of-fact way that she would state that he was left-handed. She wasn’t bothered by the fact that his self-confidence was faked.

Based on my observations since then, if someone has self-confidence but doesn’t outwardly display it, they gain none of the dating benefits. If they lack self-confidence but convincingly fake it, they gain all of the dating benefits. Truly having self-confidence just allowed me to expend less thought and effort when I outwardly displayed it.

When the facade is more important than the substance behind it, it’s not about the man.

JuJu,
I invite you to come up with examples that you feel have everything to do with the man.
Terri H 11

These blogs and the comments have fast become the highlight of my week! I’m learning all the time…Karl, keep posting and it would be great if we could get more guys giving feedback too (Evan / Karl - can you prompt your friends on here?!)
I’ll be honest – I take it very personally if I like a guy and he doesnt follow up…..I agonise if its the way I was dressed / not attractive enough / something irritating about me…although logically I know its all about chemistry. I recently turned down a second date with a guy because he was very short and physically he just didnt do it for me – harsh, and if he knew how could he not take that personally?
Cat 12

Terri (#11): Evan has a list of recommended books to read. A good one in this instance is Why He Didn’t Call You Back. Evan’s review:
“Rachel Greenwald interviews 1000 men and learns that 85% of the time, it’s not just “chemistry” that prevents him from calling you back. It’s something you actually did on the date. Knowledge is power, and, by reading this book, you’ll immediately learn what you’ve inadvertently been doing wrong, and how to course-correct on your next date.”
Of course, if you don’t have Evan’s ebook, Why He Disappeared that’s really a great help. And don’t forget to sign up for his free newsletter! I’ve learned some interesting points there, and you’ll be the first to know when he has a special offer.
JerseyGirl 13

It feels good to be trusted and have fun. No one can deny that. But for me, trust is earned, not automatically given. I don’t trust every man I go out with because if I did, I would get taken advantage of! Men often don’t discrimate between respecting or using women often in the dating world.

I know for msyelf, and I think many women feel the same, we want to know we aren’t being used just for fun. So when guys say stuff like “lets just have fun and see where it goes!” That’s great for him but where does it leave you as a woman? Fun is great but it doesn’t really put the woman in a safe spot. Why do conversations about the relationship have to equal something negative? Why can’t a relationship be fun? Why does a woman have to throw all her needs to the wayside so the guy can feel like he is having the time of his life. commitment free, and she has to just trust he isn’t using her just for a good time in the back seat trusting and hoping he is being a good guy.
Karl R 14

Terri H asked: (#11)
“I recently turned down a second date with a guy because he was very short and physically he just didnt do it for me – harsh, and if he knew how could he not take that personally?”

Read some of the comments for this blog post:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/#comment-647

lady anonymous is insecure about her weight; she feels small and dainty when she stands next to a tall broad man.

Jaya feels like a mommy when she cuddles a short man but feels feminine with a tall man.

Jessica feels big and heavy next to a small guy and lacks the self confidence to not care about how other people perceives her.

LAnie feels creeped out if a man’s eyes are at the level of her breasts

Cam isn’t sure she could get used to gazing down into a shorter man’s eyes.

And that particular list goes on for a few hundred more posts.

If the woman feels insecure about her height/weight, that’s not about the man. We crack jokes about men using sports cars to “compensate for something.” If you’re with a taller man to feel dainty and feminine, you’re doing the same thing. Is it the short man’s fault if a woman cares what other people think about their height difference? If a woman can’t adapt to something as simple as shifting her gaze down instead of up, what was the man supposed to do about it? And if a woman is that easily creeped out … guess what level my eyes are at if I’m sitting and the woman’s standing.

If the woman is comfortable with her size, her femininity, her sexuality and confident in herself, then none of those things will make a difference. It’s my responsibility to be comfortable with and confident in myself. If I’m not, I can’t blame that on the other person.

The observation that “he just didn’t do it” for you is rather vague. I’ve had a few times where women in my social circle weren’t interested in me. Later on I got to observe what kind of men “did it” for them (for example, big & dumb). I might have been more offended if they thought I was their kind of guy.

Goldie asked: (#9)
“Without a car, how do you get around?”

I live in a large metro area that has a substandard mass-transit system. But the system is concentrated around the center, so I’ve always lived and worked in that area (since moving here). I also walk a lot. My apartment is 2 miles from my office, and I’ve walked to & from numerous times. (Unfortunately my girlfriend’s house is 7 miles further out, so that option will be disappearing.) Most of the places I want to go are along the main streets going into and out of the center. That puts them on the major bus lines.

Transfers are one of the most time-consuming parts of mass-transit rides, so I’ll arrange my trips to minimize the number of transfers. All the route maps and schedules are online, so I’ll use that to figure out how (and when) to get from one spot to another.

I have a couple friends near my girlfriend’s neighborhood who use bicycles to get around. Given the area you’re in, that may be a reasonable option. A good bike will average 20 mph. At that rate, you can cover 10 miles in 30 minutes.
Christie Hartman 15

I agree, Evan. In my 2nd book, I have an entire chapter devoted to this topic. Most rejections happen because there’s a lack of chemistry, compatibility, or both. Yes, rejection sucks. It FEELS personal to be rejected. Human beings love to take everything personally. We think everything is about us, and that our perceived inadequacies are as important to everyone else as they are to us. I once dated the coolest guy, but felt no chemistry at all with him. When I said no to another date, he asked if it had to do with his receding hairline. I hadn’t even noticed it! He was great, just not my type.

Unless you’re making one of the fundamental dating mistakes, you have to see rejection for what it is and stop taking it so personally.
Lance 16

@Goldie #9: Well said. If first dates are job interviews, what’s the job for? Sex and intimacy, the way I see it. It’s a hell of a way to get those things.
@Terri: Every rejection is a break in the palace, that’s the PUA motto. I reject dates because the chicks are overweight, not hot, or lame. But I don’t say it to their faces and I don’t expect them to think it’s because they’re ugly. It’s okay to say that the chemistry wasn’t right or you had something else going on.
Gabrielle 17

Evan:
I DID that. And he DID marry me within a couple years. And within a year of being married, he met someone else, changed his mind and LEFT me. I didn’t change who I was, how I did anything, but suddenly, I wasn’t what he wanted.
So now what? It’s kind of hard not to take it personally.
Stacy 18

I am so glad this topic came up. I don’t know Evan, may be we all have different definitions of “personal”, but if someone breaks up with me because he’s rather date someone 5 years younger and Jewish, i think it IS personal. I think EVERYTHING in dating is personal. Dating is not business, where you may fire someone because the company is downsizing, but it is “nothing personal”. Dating – it is all personal thing.
Stacy 19

JerseyGirl:
“I know for msyelf, and I think many women feel the same, we want to know we aren’t being used just for fun. So when guys say stuff like “lets just have fun and see where it goes!”
This is a good point, and i tend to think that “The Rules” and dating books inspired by Pat Allen’s thinking deal with it well. The key idea is to not get invested emotionally, which also includes not having sex.

Personally, if I see a guy is lukewarm about me, i make myself less and less available (for example I would only see him on Monday nights) and if nothing changes I remove that person from my life permanently.
Selena 20

Well, most romantic relationships don’t last. If they did we would all be long happily married to the person we crushed on when we were 13. Dating is pretty much trying each other on for size to see how you fit. Sometimes you realize you are a bad fit the first week. With others it might take a few months. Which is worse though, to accept that you aren’t a good fit for whatever reason, or to prolong the uncomfortableness of trying to make something fit that just doesn’t?

Not taking rejection personally is a tidy intellectual concept, but may not translate well emotionally when you are into someone who apparently is not so into you. Once a guy I was dating broke it off by telling me, “I would rather hurt you a little now, than alot later on.” Disappointed as I was, I admired him for saying that. We weren’t right for each other and he knew it and he wasn’t going to keep it going knowing I might become more attached.

So I think a more realistic way to look at rejection is that it’s better to have it happen before you get even more emotionally invested. Before you’ve put in alot more time and effort trying to make something fit that just doesn’t. And if you look back at some of your dating relationships that ended before you wanted them to…you can probably see some examples of having “dodged a bullet” yourself.
Diane 21

#13 Jerseygirl

Good post! A woman doesn’t need to throw all her needs away for a man to have fun. Relationships need to be win/win. Women have their own unique needs, there is nothing wrong with that. Women instinctively seek safety and security, there is nothing wrong with that.

Where this becomes an issue is where on the dating/relationship timeline this need for safety and security is being requested.

So fun and flirty at the beginning of a new relationship…avoid heavy things until he proves himself to be truly interested and commitment ready. Date others while going through this stage–truly, it helps tremendously to not get so invested in one man. Look at what he does, not what he says and accept that reality. All of these tactics, along with the suggestions in posts here about how to look at dating in general, makes that rejection a bit easier to deal with.

Rejection is God’s protection.
Stacy 22

“Well, most romantic relationships don’t last. If they did we would all be long happily married to the person we crushed on when we were 13.”
True, but may be this is not a good thing. If you think about it, it’s a relatively new phenomena. In the 1960-ies the average age for marriage for men was 22 (!!). So it looks like they were, in fact, marrying their high school sweethearts. Today, we have crowds of jaded, disillusioned daters well into their 30ies running arround looking for that “perfect fit”, that doesn’t exist. Sorry, we’re humans, not pairs of shoes. I, for one, don’t want to be “tried on” 100 times.
Karl R 23

Stacy said: (#18)
“I think EVERYTHING in dating is personal.”

You can choose to interpret everything as being personal. If you do that, you will be badly hurt by the same things I shrug off as “not personal.”

After getting hurt enough times, most people become scared of getting hurt again. They act in an insecure manner, because they are vigilant for signs that they’re about to get hurt again. Potential partners pick up on this insecurity, and many are turned off by it (even though they would otherwise be interested).

The only thing you can control in life is the attitude with which you face it. I have pointed out the drawbacks of the attitude you’ve chosen, but you can choose to cling to it … even though it’s causing you pain and hindering your dating success.

It’s not easy to adopt the “it’s not personal” attitude. I agree with everyone who has said that. It becomes easier if you apply it when you’re the one who is breaking things off. When I broke things off with the woman who was too immature, I acknowledged (to myself) that the real problem was my inability to respect her as an equal. If it’s my limitations that lead me to break up with a woman, than it’s likely that it’s her limitations that led her to break up with me.

Selena said: (#20)
“most romantic relationships don’t last.”

Selena is right. Ideally, we’re just looking for the one that does. It looks quite likely that my current girlfriend and I will be together “til death do us part.” Nobody is looking at us as a couple and saying, “but Karl was turned down by the majority of women he asked out and dumped by the majority of women that he dated.” They’re saying, “You two are so lucky to have such a great relationship with each other.”

We make our luck. And in dating, we make it by having “the courage to fail” (as Evan so eloquently put it a few years ago.”

Selena said: (#20)
“So I think a more realistic way to look at rejection is that it’s better to have it happen before you get even more emotionally invested.”

It’s a lot easier to avoid taking it personally under those circumstances. Dating became easier when I stopped trying to befriend women before asking them out. I’d ask them out first; if they weren’t interested, then we could be friends.
Stacy 24

Karl”
You can choose to interpret everything as being personal. If you do that, you will be badly hurt by the same things I shrug off as “not personal.”

Well, clearly, you can choose to interpret absolutely anything any way you like. You can have someone say to your face: “you’re a horrible person with X, Y, Z negative personality traits, and i am leaving you” and still interpret it as “their inability to respect you the way you are”. You can choose to be in denial. Hell, some people choose to spend their entire lives being in denial. May be it is a healthier way to deal with things after all – nothing is about me, nothing is personal, nothing is my fault. I guess I am just not wired that way.
Selena 25

Stacy, how many people do you know who married their high school sweethearts STAYED married to them? The divorce rate for teen marriages is 75%. I don’t know how old you are, but do you think any of the boys you liked in high school would have been mature enough to be married to you at 18-22?

If your answer is yes, then why is it you are not married to one of them?
Perhaps because you mature enough to be married when you were 18-22?

I hope you don’t end up having 100 different relationships before finding one that lasts. Should it come to that I can only think how much you must have learned along the way.
Stacy 26

Stacy, how many people do you know who married their high school sweethearts STAYED married to them
A LOT. In my family, among my patents and grand-parents generations this was a norm. There was only 1 divorce among 9 families.

I am 29. It is not a norm for my generation anymore. At this point I am in the “marry him” mode, but most of the men age 29-35 are still “looking to hang out and have fun”. I have dated at least 3 men this year alone who I would totally marry, but I apperently wasn’t good enough for any of them (and yes, I took it personally, because I am very good looking and successful and easy going, and I don’t get what it is what was not good enough for them).

On the bright side, as women we can control when we have our children. I have decided that I will start having kids when I hit 33 regardless of my relationship status at that time. This decision was difficult, but in some interesting Carnegie-an way very liberating. I don’t care about “finding the one” anymore. I go on dates that originate from social interactions, but I could really care less about what comes out of it. Not playing “the numbers game” anymore, not being treated like a pair of shoes that is being trided on some endless number of times. I got off this emotional rollercoaster, and judging by the number of my girlfriends experiencing dating fatigue, this could be the solution for many of us.
Karl R 27

Stacy said: (#24)
“You can have someone say to your face: ‘you’re a horrible person with X, Y, Z negative personality traits, and i am leaving you’”

I’ve never had a girlfriend (or an ex) say that I was a horrible person (to my face -or- behind my back). If this is something that’s happening to you repeatedly, either you are a horrible person, or you’ve been dating horrible abusive people.

Stacy said: (#24)
“You can choose to be in denial.”

I have had some girlfriends (and exes) mention traits of mine which bothered them. In every case, I was already aware of those traits. In most of those cases, the same traits were assets in other relationships.

The easiest way to not take criticism personally is to already be aware of (and accepting of) your own flaws. Self-awareness is much more powerful than denial.

When people (strangers) have said horrible things to my face, it was their problem, and I saw no reason to take it personally. I had a fundamentalist minister tell me that I was going to hell. Why should I believe him? I’m sure God hasn’t delegated that responsibility to him. I’ve had dozens of homophobes scream at me that I was a “faggot.” My sexual preference never changed to match their opinions.

Again, self-awareness works to my advantage. If I know myself and accept myself, your words can’t hurt me.
Stacy 28

Karl – whatever. Arguing about perceptions makes no sense. I thought it was clear that I used the example as an extreme, to show that you can shrug off pretty much everuthing, but it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t personal. Your view makes no sense to me, but we can agree to disagree.
Getboyfriendback 29

Most of the time your ex won’t give you the exact reasons why he left. If he did, he’d be giving you the chance to fix them, and it would give you a foothold back into the relationship. At the time he broke up with you, he didn’t want that.

In short, you need to identify the root cause(s) of your breakup before moving forward.
JuJu 30

Karl, I was thinking more along the lines of social graces. I mean, nothing is objective, of course, but this is probably as universal as it gets. (I mean decorum – not to be confused with pointless etiquette, like the proper placing of multiple forks next to a plate.)

If I wrote down five concrete examples of this from my experience, my post would have been the length of a treatise , but I can actually give you many by only citing one: do you know how many men think it’s perfectly all right to ask sex-related questions (or start sex-related discussions) in the first phone conversation, before they ever meet the woman? And that’s considering that I personally filter my potential dates pretty thoroughly!

I actually recall Evan saying a few years back that sometimes “just be yourself” is the worst advice, and he went on to say something like, “Yeah, just tell that to the guy who thinks it’s completely appropriate to ask a woman on the first date if she likes anal sex.”

Some of the examples I heard from my various friends and acquaintances (not related to sexual behavior, just social graces in general) were downright unnerving, and usually made me think that I am unlikely to find myself in a similar situation, since, like I said, I do filter pretty effectively (and I would like to think that in such cases I would have invariably sensed that something was seriously off with this person).

Somebody forwarded me this the other day, and I’ve been itching to post it on this blog, but it didn’t seem relevant to any of the recent topics – well, now it is! I guarantee you will all enjoy this immensely : http://shankman.com/how-not-to-act-on-j-date/ None of my personal examples even come close, thank god . but in a case like this it really is hard not to proclaim the guy’s conduct – an objective problem.

Btw, it’s interesting to observe the impression you have of me. In reality, I never once rejected anyone purely on the basis of his looks – it was always a combination of attributes. Seriously, never once in my life was I faced with the dilemma, “Gosh, he is such an amazing guy, I only wish I were physically attracted!”
student driver 31

You have a great writing voice and I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future. It is interesting, as I continue on my own self discovery through dating, especially now that I am dating men, versus women, how spot on some of your advice is. I don’t have the years of back ground practice dating with men. I was a lesbian, dating men is completely foreign to me, the way they think, completely foreign. Thank you for translating a bit of it.
Karl R 32

JuJu said: (#30)
“do you know how many men think it’s perfectly all right to ask sex-related questions (or start sex-related discussions) in the first phone conversation, before they ever meet the woman?”

Do you know how many women do?

I don’t phone screen like you do (and neither do the women I’ve dated), but based on my experience, around 20% of educated, professional women will bring up the topic of sex in some manner on or before the first date (I always let the woman be the one to introduce sex as a topic.) There may have been additional women who would have been comfortable bringing up the subject with other men, just not me. In the crowd that I hung out with in my early 20s, it was over 80% (maybe close to 100%), but they weren’t educated professionals.

While I wouldn’t recommend talking about sex that early in a relationship (purely as a datting strategy), it’s clearly acceptable within some segments of society. But if a man is interested in educated, professional women, not so much.

I’d say we’re already past the point where it has everything to do with the man, but I’ll take it a little further. Have you (or any of the other women who think men shouldn’t bring up sex before meeting in person) ever had sex with a man on the first date? Do you (and any like minded women) think it’s a good idea to discuss sex (i.e. protection, etc.) with your partner before engaging in it? If you answered yes to both questions, explain to me how your aversion to discussing the subject is rational under those circumstances.

Furthermore, why do you think discussing sex early on is a social taboo? If the relationship becomes long-tem, you intend to eventually have sex. Sex is an important aspect of a relationship. I suspect you intend to discuss sex. What is it about the timing of these discussions that is so imprtant?

I had two girlfriends get upset with themselves because they had sex with me earlier than they intended. When I asked why this bothered them, they answered, “I didn’t want you to think I was that kind of girl.”

Obviously they were that kind of girl, I was that kind of guy, and I was in no position to draw judgments about their sexual behavior. So when you have a problem with these men, is it because you have hang ups about discussing sex in general, or is it because you have a hang up about coming across as “that kind of girl?”

If it was purely that the questions were too personal for that point in the relationship, you could simply do as I have and say, “It’s a bit soon for answering that personal of a question. When we know each other better I’ll answer it.” Instead, you see it as a reason to reject the men.

So instead of giving me five personal examples, you limited it to one. (Presumably the one you thought presented the most obvious case for having “everything” to do with the guy.) Do you want to try again with another personal example?

I’m sure you could search the internet for four more examples where it has everything to do with the man. But that represents the most extreme examples out of hundreds of millions … not the experience that the average person is going to have.

JuJu said: (#30)
“Btw, it’s interesting to observe the impression you have of me.”

As I stated, those were “generic examples.” I chose them because they were common to many women. Therefore, I thought there was a decent possibility they applied to you as well.

However, the one example you gave spoke volumes. Not so much that you rejected men for it, but that you were so utterly convinced that it had “everything” to do with them, and nothing to do with you.
Helen 33

I am actually going to side with Stacy on this point, and put an idea on the table that may not jive well in a PC sense: I think women are more sensitive to rejection than men. Or, at least, men show more of an attitude of not being affected by rejection; I don’t know what they actually feel inside.

My hub and I have been married for over a decade. After all this time, I am still amazed at how, if anyone slights him or if something negative happened at work, he doesn’t take it personally. He oftentimes blames the other party. My male colleagues are exactly the same way. My girlfriends and I, on the other hand, rarely discuss a problem in our lives without wondering how WE contributed to the problem: “Was it something I said?” “Was I wrong to have done X?”

Now, why is that? Is it because we think about more sides of an issue, or because we’re just exposing what we really think; compared with men, who only show the side that relates to the other person doing wrong?

But I can relate to the point Stacy brought up of people who may indeed be horrible, yet seem unable to internalize any criticism of their nature and always assume it’s the other person who must be in the wrong – even after they get rejected or criticized for the same thing time after time. I know a few of these folks; some are even friends. And the “rejection” in question isn’t always romantic in nature. Some people always blame others; some always blame themselves. Most of us fall in between.
JuJu 34

Karl, no, it’s not because of some hangup I have. I am not in the least prudish, nor do I believe in double standards. The question is not only too personal to come from a complete stranger (and yes, the way you suggested is how I answer all overly personal questions at that stage, not just sex-related ones), it’s simply premature from someone I’ve never seen and don’t know whether will be attracted to when we meet in person. It’s a really preposterous thing to ask, if you think about it.

But generally, I prefer my men with a bit more class and a higher maturity level.

I *did* have sex on the first date in the past, although not often, but I wouldn’t do that now. Not because I am afraid of what the man will think about me, but because I want to reach a certain level of emotional intimacy before having sex. I know myself well enough by now to know that otherwise I will feel like I am playing a role, and that’s not an enjoyable feeling.

And what, no response to the link I posted?

I don’t need to search the internet for examples, but honestly, my own would be too long and involved, most likely not exactly entertaining, and I am not even sure when I will have that kind of time.
JuJu 35

Okay, thought of a short one: this one guy kept asking probing questions about my age over the phone, even though my correct age was in my profile, and the photos in it were 1-3 months old. Apparently he thought I looked younger, only instead of coming out complimentary, his reaction was suspicious and accusatory, and totally ruined the mood of the conversation for me. Obviously, I didn’t want to meet him after that.
Diana 36

To JuJu #30, if I were to experience a man who I had never met asking me sex-related questions or starting sex-related discussions in our initial phone call or in emails, I would feel uncomfortable, and would very likely not agree to meet. There is a place and time for everything. This kind of reminds me of a lunch date I had years ago where the guy asked me what my sexual fantasies were in our first few minutes together. It wasn’t exactly the kind of conversation I thought we’d have. He became history because I thought it showed extreme disrespect.
Karl R 37

JuJu said: (#34)
“But generally, I prefer my men with a bit more class and a higher maturity level.”

That has to do with you, not him.

Your preference for class (and interpretation as to what that means), your preference for a certain maturity level (and interpretation as to what that means).

The question is only “preposterous” if you believe it is. The subsection of society you belong to generally believes it is, and you have chosen to conform to that belief. You made a choice, even if you don’t recognize it.

JuJu said: (#34)
“I want to reach a certain level of emotional intimacy before having sex. I know myself well enough by now to know that otherwise I will feel like I am playing a role, and that’s not an enjoyable feeling.”

You feel like you’re playing a role. You don’t enjoy that feeling. All of these things tie directly back to you.

I’m not saying you’re unreasonable for feeling that way. But I am saying that your decision to break things off has as much to do with you as it does with him.

JuJu said: (#34)
“I am not in the least prudish, nor do I believe in double standards.”

Have you ever heard the statement from guys that they’re looking for “A lady in public, but a freak in the bed.”

Many men (maybe a majority) want a woman who conforms to societal standards in public, and therefore doesn’t embarrass them socially. These men also want a woman who is a lot of fun, because she ignores the same societal standards in private.

If you’re looking for someone who acts like a gentleman in public, but who is a fun-loving sex animal in bed, that is a double-standard … regardless of whether you believe in double standards.

JuJu said: (#34)
“And what, no response to the link I posted?”

I already did, but I’ll paraphrase it:

You can find multiple examples where it has everything to do with the other person if you search the internet (or otherwise expose yourself to the hundreds of millions of experiences that people have). That’s not the typical experience that you or I will have.

Tying this all back together:
There is one trait that is absolutely essential for every partner in every successful relationship. It’s the ability to accept your partner just the way they are. When you reject someone, you demonstrate that you lack this essential trait for them (and they lack this trait if they reject you).

With that in mind, when someone rejects me, they’ve simply told me that they lack the trait which is highest on my list. Odds are extremely high that the trait they couldn’t accept is one that I’m aware of and okay with.

Why would I take that personally?

Despite your inability to come up with a personal example, there are two categories of people where the rejection has “everything” to do with them. The first would be the extremely rare individuals who have traits that nobody would accept (like the man in your link).

The far more common people (which I’ve run across on this forum multiple times) are the ones who have such picky standards that they can’t accept any of the people who would accept them.
BeenThereDoneThat 38

Count me with the other ladies who also eliminates men because thery asked sex questions before we’ve met. If they are asking, I conclude they have issues with boundaries.
BeenThereDoneThat 39

They are asking . . . Sorry. I hate goofs.
JuJu 40

Karl, I did provide a personal example – you must have overlooked it.

Obviously my point about the man from JDate wasn’t how to research the internet for examples, but that I have a hard time imagining a woman who would indeed be okay with that sort of behavior. In fact, I am amazed he was ever able to hold down a job and now has a successful business, since this can’t be an isolated example of his poor social skills. Something of that magnitude is bound to permeate every facet of one’s life.

By “double standards” I meant different standards for men and for women. If a man thinks any less of me for having sex with him “too soon”, it would say much more about him than it would about me. What you are describing is merely the difference in one’s behavior depending on the context. Anyone with any judgment will know what’s appropriate depending on the circumstances they find themselves in.

Moving away from manners, there were a few times, with one that particularly stands out in my memory, when I rejected men because the sex was really bad. Of course, you are gonna reply that some other women might enjoy those same techniques – yeah, uh huh, I am certain of that.

Btw, fellow commenters, I am absolutely heartbroken that no one checked out the link I posted above, which I only posted here for *YOUR* amusement. I am stepping away to cry now.
Selena 41

If some guy brought sex into discussion on our first meeting (let alone before meeting) I’d think him uncouth, immature, disrespectful. I would be thinking, (though likely wouldn’t say) “What are you 13? Horny little bastard.” And no, I’ve never had sex on the first date.

Is this personal to me, not him? Maybe, but the result is the same: total turn-off and no second date.
Cat 42

JuJu (#40) – Your link was funny, but I’d seen it before. In fact, I have a dating story that’s similar to that, though the guy blogged about it instead of leaving incriminating voicemails, and he lied about the money he’d spent (and left out the fact that I’d paid for part of the date, which wasn’t expensive anyway, and had been activities that he’d chosen: a movie that he insisted on–Spiderman 3–and dinner at a casual restaurant where I had water and something cheap to eat.) At least he didn’t ask for a refund…
Selena 43

Hey JuJu stop crying! I just read the link…what a story! Sheesh. Yes, I think that’s a great example of someone who’s directly responsible for their own rejection. Scary/funny. Thanks for sharing.
Karl R 44

JuJu said: (#40)
“there were a few times, with one that particularly stands out in my memory, when I rejected men because the sex was really bad.”

I’ve been in that situation before. There are a few possible reasons for “bad sex”:
1) The person is too inexperienced to know what to do.
2) The person doesn’t understand what you like.
3) The two of you have incompatable sexual tastes.
4) The other person doesn’t care whether you enjoy yourself.

In the first case, you can help the person learn how to be a better lover. If you choose to dump them because you don’t feel like spending the time, that’s on you.

In the second case, it’s a communication issue. Communication is a two-way street.

In the third case it’s mutual incompatability. Your turn-on is his turn-off, or vice versa.

In the fourth case, the person doesn’t care about you. At that point, does it even quailfy as you rejecting him? It sounds more mutual to me.

JuJu said: (#40)
“you are gonna reply that some other women might enjoy those same techniques”

No. But other women might have been more patient about teaching, more communicative of their desires, or more compatable with the men’s tastes.

Do you have anything else where you’re convinced that it had “everything” to do with the man?
Luxe 45

@40

I checked out the link and it’s pretty hilarious and freaky at the same time. I didn’t listen to the audio since I am at work. But wow! It reminded me of something that I saw either in another email forward or on the internet. But it was about a lady who kept getting asked out by this guy. She wasn’t interested but he kept persisting. Eventually she just gave him her business card. He ended up leaving a bunch of crazy voice messages on her work phone when she wouldn’t call him back. It was pretty funny.

As for talking about sex on the first date. I don’t care for it, it’s actually a turn off for me. I don’t mind talking about it if I have a certain level of rapport with that person. You don’t really have that when you first talk to someone or on the first date. Plus it just comes off as him only being interested in sex. Eventually though if the two of you are interested then yes, go ahead and discuss.
JuJu 46

Karl, did you read my post #35?
Karl R 47

JuJu said: (#35)
“this one guy kept asking probing questions about my age over the phone, [...] Apparently he thought I looked younger,”

That was your interpretation of his questions.

“only instead of coming out complimentary, his reaction was suspicious and accusatory,”

That was how he sounded to you, not necessarily how he intended to come across. Did you directly address the issue with him?

Heck, on the phone I miss at least 1 word in 10, then fill it in from context. And a couple changed words can really switch a conversation around.

“and totally ruined the mood of the conversation for me. Obviously, I didn’t want to meet him after that.”

You chose not to meet him because the mood of your first and only conversation wasn’t to your tastes.

You’ve now come up with three examples, and in each of the three cases, I might have chosen not to pursue a relationship with the person if I was in your shoes.

But I wouldn’t be claiming that it had everything to do with them and nothing to do with me. I’m not obsessively compelled to believe that it was all their fault. I make decisions based on the best information available at the time, and I accept the consequences. As Selena said (#41) the result is essentially the same (no further dates).

Except if you recognize your own role in the process, you keep your mind more open to changing it. I initially decided not to date my girlfriend because I thought she was too old for me. She initially decided that she wasn’t interested in a serious relationship because I was too young for her. But both of us (internally) acknowledged that we were making a decision based on the information we had at that time. And we both changed our minds later when we knew each other better.
JuJu 48

Well, Karl, when one comes up with seven different ways to ask the same question, you don’t need to be terribly intuitive to sense that something is up.
I did address it (later, by e-mail), I don’t remember already how exactly he responded, but it didn’t alleviate the feeling I had.

Btw, this ties in well with what Evan said recently about trust needing to be granted automatically – it should be an “innocent until proven guilty” sort of thing.
Goldie 49

@ Stacy #22:

“In the 1960-ies the average age for marriage for men was 22 (!!). So it looks like they were, in fact, marrying their high school sweethearts. Today, we have crowds of jaded, disillusioned daters well into their 30ies running arround looking for that “perfect fit”, that doesn’t exist.”

I wasn’t here in the 60s, but from what I understand, many couples stayed together for economic reasons (most wives never worked outside the home) as well as due to the fact that divorce carried a huge social stigma for both parties involved, as did remaining single past a certain age (say 25 for women). Past that age, you’d be a spinster, and your chances of ever finding a husband would be slim to none.

I also understand that, back then, cheating on one’s spouse was a lot more socially acceptable than it is now.

I am not sure if I like this model better than what we have now.

Why do people not stay with their HS/college sweethearts? Because people change. People grow, often in different directions. People’s judgment and ability to assess others, and themselves, and decide what kind of person would be best for them as a life partner, develops with years. A 30yo will certainly have better judgment than a teenager. I’d wager this was the case in the 60s anyway, except now, we’re not forced into marrying early, and not trapped in our marriages for social/economic reasons.

Using myself as an example, I married a college sweetheart, and I’m here, meaning it did not work. In fact, a very large number of my school/college friends married their HS and college sweethearts. Very few of them are still together. On the contrary, my mom waited till she was 27, in a time and culture where it was unheard of to still be single after 20. My parents have been happily married for 45 years and hopefully will be for many more to come. I’d say it pays to wait until you’re a mature person and know what you want.
Karl R 50

JuJu said: (#48)
“when one comes up with seven different ways to ask the same question,”

Seven times? And believed that your only solution was to get annoyed?

If a potential date makes a couple comments regarding my age, I start trying to talk her into making a wager over it. Either the person shuts up about it, or I win money off them … and then they shut up about it.

And you don’t have to make it remotely sporting. You can set it up so the only way you can lose is if you’re wrong about your age.

With my current girlfriend, I won the bet and still got a relationship out of it afterward. (I did make the bet a little more sporting than just about my age.)

JuJu said: (#35)
“Obviously, I didn’t want to meet him after that.”

I’d say that my way worked a lot better than yours.
Stacy 51

Goldie:
I am not sure if I like this model better than what we have now.

I highly recommend reading “Committed” by Elizabeth Gilbert. She interviews old couples and couples in different cultures, and talks about how it used to be that people would marry someone who “would do”, i.e. was good enough but really just like anyone else, and then they would grow to love and respect each other and learn to compromise. And now everybody is looking for “the one” and ends up with no one…
JuJu 52

Karl, like I said, he didn’t express disbelief outright, instead he asked questions designed to catch me in an inconsistency. Yes, it was offensive. Although, thankfully, not a common problem for me – normally when people think I look younger, they phrase it as a compliment.

While I do usually try to lighten the atmosphere to some extent, sometimes it pays to take heed instead.
Selena 53

So Stacy, why is it that at 29 you haven’t married a high school/college sweetheart since you believe that’s the optimal thing to do?
Goldie 54

Funny, I lived in a different culture for 30 years, and I don’t remember Elizabeth Gilbert interviewing me or any of my friends, or our parents. Too bad, because we have stories to tell. Some are stories of love and respect and learning to compromise – but there are also ones of abuse and misery and rampant infidelity, and, on occasion, murder of one spouse by the other It wasn’t all rosy in the good old days.

Personally, I think there is some (actually, a lot of) common sense in marrying “someone that would do” – you know, rather than waiting for the tall, dark and handsome billionaire. But at the same time, I think that marrying someone because you have to marry a guy, any guy, ASAP, and staying together because you have nowhere else to go, is a recipe for disaster.
Diane 55

#49 Goldie

I agree with what you’re saying Goldie. I think people get married for all kinds of reasons. I got married because I really wanted to have a family, I’m divorced. We were not a good match from the beginning, we did the best we could and had 2 great kids. I was immature and impatient though and not willing to wait for the right person.

Sure, there’s a chance that a couple marry someone and GROW to love each other–seems like a very slim . That’s a huge chance to take though.

I also have noticed a lot of men on line who are older, like 40′s and even early 50′s with younger children–those men waited more than likely and that didn’t work out either.

In the past, women had a lot less choice and our life expentancies were shorter. It’s a different age and a different time. We can wish things were different, but that’s suffering over something we have no control over.

I think the key is to CHOOSE WISELY from the beginning and be patient.
Diane 56

Stacey, you sound like a smart woman who has thought a lot about relationships.

I also detect a sharp, cynical edge about you as well. Some frustration perhaps, or overall negative energy, even masculine energy.

You mention 3 ‘relationships’ you had in a year (they must be short term to have 3 in one year). With such short relationships, I maintain there is no way to really know if those men would have ultimately been a good lifetime partner. I think it’s common to NOT have relationships work out, so I’m not sure I would be so hard on them in regard to ‘rejecting ‘ you (taking it personally).

What I would point out though is if your ‘tone’ and overall energy as you’ve presented yourself here is what you’re projecting out in the world, then that could be an issue. People want to be around other people that are positive and happy and fun and flirty and hopeful. That’s the way it is…like it or not.

I don’t really know you, just going by the posts written here. Of course all of my comments can be dismissed…I do wish you luck and happiness though.
C. 57

I had a laugh at the Jonathan Franzen reference. My new boyfriend is very well-read and has encouraged me to read a few novels that aren’t my usual taste (I prefer short stories and essays). I’m terrified that he expects me to be a good “book club” buddy and talk to him about what I’ve read, and then realize I’m not as brainy as he. I hope its not as important to him as I’m worried it is!
Karl R 58

JuJu,
Now that you’ve spent a bit of effort (#7, 30, 34, 35, 40, 48 and 52) justifying your belief that it always has “everything” to do with your partner (and nothing to do with you)…

… are you aware that I (and others) see it as a major red flag when someone heaps all the blame for failed relationships on their partners?

Like all red flags, it bears some investigation before drawing conclusions, but blaming others is an indicator of immaturity, an inability to recognize one’s own flaws, an inability to recognize the role one plays in creating/exacerbating conflicts, poor conflict resolution, an inability to see things from others’ point of view and egocentrism.

When a date starts talking about her former breakups, I’ll listen very carefully to see whether she starts playing the blame game. If she does, I’ll be a sympathetic audience in order to subtly encourage her to keep talking along those lines. If this is a recurring pattern in her relationships, I come to one conclusion: If I pursue her, this pattern will repeat itself with me.

And even in that circumstance, it’s still not personal. That’s just not the kind of relationship I’m interested in getting involved in.
Cat 59

Karl (#58)

“… are you aware that I (and others) see it as a major red flag when someone heaps all the blame for failed relationships on their partners?”

Juju is clearly not talking about “relationships” or breakups. She’s mentioned rejecting men she met online through phone pre-screening before a first date, something that Evan highly recommends to both women AND men in his comprehensive Finding the One Online series. (He even includes very specific examples of using pre-screening himself when he was single and why it’s so important to be successful in dating. Considering that he’s now happily married, it works!)

You and JuJu clearly have a difference of opinion, as she pointed out earlier, and perhaps can agree to disagree. I don’t see much point in continuing to hammer at her with your own opinion of her experiences, which you were not a part of or privy to outside of her comments here. I have no idea why she seems to feel the need to justify her choices to you.

I have to agree with Juju: if you have a bad conversation with a stranger that makes you uncomfortable or uneasy, you’re not obligated to meet him afterwards for a first date. There’s a reason they call it “women’s intuition,” not “people’s intuition.”

I also agree with Karl that people should try not to take rejection so personally. However, I think that’s not something that comes easily and has to be worked at.

In addition, Karl, just because a man wants to have sex with you doesn’t mean it’s not a turn off (to many women- not all) to hear the details in the first conversation, just as it’s a turn off to (most – not all) men if a woman makes the first date all about her desperate need for marriage and babies and security because that’s what she eventually wants! (Not that every woman wants that…) Sigh. You get the point. I’ve had several men tell me about their vasectomies before the first date because too many of their previous first dates talked only about the babies they wanted! See? Turn off! Guys want to be seen as more than a sperm donor and women want to be seen as more than sex objects…

If dating were easy, this blog wouldn’t exist!
Karl R 60

Cat said: (#59)
“I don’t see much point in continuing to hammer at her with your own opinion of her experiences,”

It’s not the experiences I’m trying to hammer at. It’s the mindset … something I apply across all experiences.

My point goes back to what I said earlier (#23). It is hard to adopt the attitude that it’s not personal when someone rejects you. It’s much easier if you’ve already adopted the mindset that it’s not personal when you reject them.

Let’s say sex comes up during the first phone conversation and it’s a turn-off. Fine! I don’t bother vilifying the potential date. I’m no longer interested in having a date with the person, so I don’t. It’s about me, not them.

When the situation is reversed, I don’t torture myself by trying to determine what flaw the other person saw in me. It’s about her, not me.

The best way to learn good dating strategies (like not bringing up sex too soon) is by learning good dating strategies outside of the context of your dates.

If you try to dissect your own dates for what you did wrong, you’ll end up like Christie Hartman’s example (#15), drawing a conclusing based entirely upon your own insecurities, not the reality of the situation.
JuJu 61

Indeed, Karl, when did I ever once mention a former partner in this thread?

Although I do understand the point about not taking rejection personally (albeit more so on an intellectual level rather than emotional, I have to add), where I disagree with you is the blanket dismissal of the proposition that the rejected person’s behavior may have something to do with it. I can also say that a woman’s neediness is not a problem in and of itself, but only a problem in the given man’s perception, except that things don’t work that way in reality, and said woman would do well to work on this issue before pursing a romantic relationship.

To respond to your latest criticism: I don’t recall feeling much of a regret over not giving someone a chance, but I did regret many times ignoring the various red flags that were definitely there from the start, only I chose to be magnanimous and forgiving instead of “intolerant” and “judgmental”. In each of those cases the little things I noticed here and there only signified much bigger personality problems.

Cat, it’s not the need to justify anything – I was merely surprised by how much of what I said he misinterpreted. Karl doesn’t normally strike me as the type of person who only sees what he wants to see.
starthrower68 62

@ Stacy #51,

Your post about the book “Commited” shows us that love is as much if not more a decision than a feeling. Of course few of us realize that because feelings rule the day and evidently, there are an awful lot of us chasing feelings or EMK wouldn’t have so many blogs on that concept.
Helen 63

Does it really do any good to argue in terms of absolutes? Of course it’s not all another person’s fault, nor should rejections be taken as completely “impersonal.” It’s not black and white, but a spectrum.

In any given interaction, one party may be more sensitive to particular flaws that the other party displays, and the other party’s flaws may be serious problems that SHOULD be corrected – not just tossed off as, “Their rejection of me has everything to do with them and nothing to do with me.” The whole point of maturing into adulthood is learning how to function in society, and that will rely in part on social cues rather than assuming that one is always right and everyone else is wrong.
Karl R 64

JuJu asked: (#61)
“when did I ever once mention a former partner in this thread?”
JuJu said: (#7)
“when I reject a man, it’s very much personal! It has everything to do with him!”

Were you excluding former partners from your initial statement (#7)?

JuJu said: (#61)
“Karl doesn’t normally strike me as the type of person who only sees what he wants to see.”

Seeing your side is easy in these cases. It’s seeing and understanding the other side that’s challenging. I’m trying to point out that there is another point of view, and it’s not as one-sided as it initially appears.

Suspicious probing questions:
You didn’t like being repeatedly asked probing questions by a potential date who didn’t believe that you were honest about your age.

My parents are still waiting for me to come out of the closet that I’m a homosexual. They keep dropping hints that it’s okay for me to tell them the “truth.” They refuse to recognize that I already told them the truth.

But if I was gay, I would have also told my parents that I was straight. And I may have gone further to demonstrate this (bringing around “girlfriends”).

You and I both know that people lie in their profiles. They put up out-of-date photos. We would like to uncover these deceptions sooner instead of later … and the people who lie are unlikely to volunteer the information. Instead, they behave just like you did.

It’s frustrating to deal with someone who doesn’t believe you. It’s also frustrating to deal with person after person who lie to you. And I’m pretty sure both of us have been in situations where we can understand that man’s suspicion.

I didn’t feel like jumping through hoops to alleviate my parents suspicions. If I ran across that kind of behavior in a potential date, I’d have little interest in seeing them again. But that’s because I would find them frustrating and I don’t feel like exercising the patience to change the situation.

And that decision has to do with me, not the other person.

Lousy sex:
I had one girlfriend who thought she was doing her part in sex if she lay motionless on her back with her legs spread. She always had an orgasm (during foreplay), but I never did.

I tried suggesting things that would make the experience more enjoyable to me, but she either ignored the suggestions or tried them once and returned to her normal habit.

Not only was the (infrequent) sex a source of dissatisfaction, but I felt extremely uncomfortable about bringing up the subject. I had no clue how to express my dissatisfaction in a way that conveyed my point without hurting her.

It’s easy to say that she was the worst sex partner I ever had and I’d never stay in a relationship with someone who is that bad and who shows no sign of improvement. It’s a lot harder to admit that my communication skills weren’t up to the challenges of this situation.

That relationship was doomed for other reasons (that relate to both of us, not just her) and I have no regrets that I ended it. But I’m not going to pretend that it was all her fault.

Talking about sex before the first date:
I agree that it’s poor dating strategy for a guy to do this. Many people feel uncomfortable having that kind of conversation that soon. We don’t like people who make us uncomfortable, whether the topic is sex or anything else we’d rather not discuss with a stranger.

Personally, I’m more comfortable discussing sex than I am discussing my family. I have a contentious relationship with several members of my immediate family, and I’m not comfortable discussing the details with people who aren’t close friends.

Just about every woman I’ve ever dated has managed to nail that conversational land mine on the first date (if not beforehand). And since a poor family relationship is a red flag for many people, I end up in a position where I have to discuss a fairly sensitive topic on the first date in order to have a chance at a second date. While it may be completely irrational for me to feel this way, I’d really like women to stop bringing up that topic on the first date.

And even if I didn’t have any of those conversational land mines in my life, I would eventually date someone where a fairly normal question on my part opened a very uncomfortable topic for them.

If a topic of conversation makes me uncomfortable, my discomfort plays a huge role in that. And my discomfort is my responsibility, not the other person’s.

It’s not mandatory to feel uncomfortable about discussing family, even deeply flawed families. Similarly, it’s not mandatory to feel “unnerved” about discussing sex. (Nor is it mandatory to believe that it’s rude, uncouth or immature.) Nor is it mandatory to reject every person who brings up an uncomfortable topic. (If it was, I would have rejected every woman I’ve ever dated.)

If I feel uncomfortable, that’s my trait. If I reject someone for it, that’s my decision. If I feel something is rude or uncouth, there will be people who disagree with me, and it’s my bias that leads me to say that I am right and they are wrong.

That has a lot to do with me.

JuJu said: (#61)
“where I disagree with you is the blanket dismissal of the proposition that the rejected person’s behavior may have something to do with it.”

Have you at least backed off from your earlier assertion (#7) that it has “everything” to do with the rejected person?

In some cases, it really has nothing to do with the rejected person. My brother is a bigot. His rejection of every non-white person has to to with him, not them.

I don’t want kids. My rejection of every woman who wants kids makes sense, it’s a good idea, and I don’t regret it. And while it relates to both of us equally, I’m not about to say they should change at all.

And even when we get to things that seem obvious (like poor hygiene), things aren’t as black and white as we imagine. One of my dance partners has smelly armpits. I tolerate it (for the length of a dance) because she’s a really good dancer. I’d probably be turned off in more intimate circumstances. But she has a long-term boyfriend who either doesn’t notice or doesn’t care. So is her odor the issue, or is it my intolerance of it?

When a woman rejects me, I usually don’t know the reason. If I don’t know the reason, why should I assume that it’s something personal? Even if the woman thinks I have a flaw, she may be mistaken (i.e. assuming I’m gay) or I may not see it as a flaw (i.e. “too brainy”). And even if it’s something I may also see as a flaw, another woman might see it as a non-issue (or even an asset).

Helen said: (#63)
“the other party’s flaws may be serious problems that SHOULD be corrected – not just tossed off”

I agree. But the odds are staggeringly against anyone discovering that through a rejection. People are far more likely to jump to an inaccurate conclusion.

If you want to discover your flaws, there are more productive ways to go about it than taking rejection personally.
Evan Marc Katz 65

JuJu: Pick up Why He Didn’t Call You Back by Rachel Greenwald: http://www.evanmarckatz.com/about/writing.html

About the only way someone can learn why he/she was rejected is by asking, and yet most of us never do so. Rachel did and it’s pretty insightful. Lemme know if you like it.
BeenThereDoneThat 66

“You and I both know that people lie in their profiles”

This is very true. BUT he thought JuJu was YOUNGER than her profile indicated.  Once past the age of 21, does ANYONE lie to make themselves older?   Especially in the dating world?  I think his inability to trust something that should be fairly simple to believe is odd and after repeated probing questions, I would have decided to go no further with him as well.

And you are right, Karl, when I choose to not to get to know someone better, whether it be after a initial email, or a couple of email exchanges, or a 1st phone call, or whenever, it is because I decided it.   It is sometimes based on something they did or said. For example, once before we’d ever met a guy demanded I give up my “coffee habit”. I thought that was pretty funny because my coffee habit is an occasional shot of coffee in my hot chocolate – I can’t stand the taste of coffee. So no big deal to stop altogether. BUT if he is making demands after a phone conversation, what will he be like later?   Or the guy who sent me a picture of his package – after our first phone conversation; didn’t think that was worth pursuing either.

Sometimes it’s because I’ve started seeing someone else, or it could be that I’ve hit a particular trying time and have to focus my attention there, although in both these cases, I’d tell the other person.

It just isn’t black and white.
Joe 67

People, what Karl is (I think) trying to say is that you are all perfectly justified in rejecting others for whatever reasons you choose. However, you should also cop to the fact that the since they are YOUR reasons, they have to do with YOUR OWN personal biases, not with the rejected person. The rejectee has nothing to do with your biases.
JuJu 68

Karl, conversations about sex do not make me uncomfortable in the least (in fact I kinda have to censor myself sometimes because I can be completely “shameless” (a meaningless word for me) in what I say, but other people might be uncomfortable with that). Nor can I honestly say that I am particularly offended by them. I just conclude that the man doesn’t have the finesse I want to see in my potential partner, and that’s the end of it.

I mean, we aren’t talking about sex discussions in general here, but only premature / unwarranted ones.

BeenThere, the guy thought I used old photos to lure men in. Not that I put a higher age in my profile than I really was at the time.

Evan, that’s not a frequent problem for me. But thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check it out.
Joe 69

I would say she should try a makeover and try to become more attractive. A lot of women get implants after a divorce, but that is rather drastic. She may be hurt, but basically most men aren’t meant to be monogamous and all women need to accept this because LTR is not the goal of most men, and men aren’t afraid of sampling other women before/if they ever want to get married.
hespeler 70

Sorry to trudge up this older blog and even more sorry to keep bringing up a recent situation that I should be over by now but as I am still going through it, this whole idea of rejection being not personal really hits home. Also, sorry for that run-on sentence…

As hard as I try on an intellectual level to say that rejection is not personal, I just can’t wrap my head around it. Especially when you play Sherlock Holmes and try and deduce the reasons why, the answer usually comes back to you, hence, one takes it personally. I guess it all depends on what one perceives as personal. To me, physical traits that I can’t change and are rejected for is personal to me, especially since I take care of myself and present myself as the best possible “me” that I can.

I somehwat recently went out with a beautiful woman. We hit it off great through e-mail and phone. We’re very close in age, we’re very close geographically, we’re both divorced and own houses. Only diffrence is that she has a kid and I don’t.

We meet up and I was stunned not only by her beauty but the type of person she is and her overall personality as well. We had so many common interests. After 40 or so dates, I finally find someone I am actually excited about. The date goes well (not amazing but flows just fine). She mentions how much younger I look in person, begins drinking out of my glass of wine which leads me to think she is attracted to me (I know these are small things but I thought I was picking up on some subtleties). At the end of the date, I go to hug her and she initiates a make out session which really surprised me. She then looks me in the eye and says, “I hope to see you again.” Of course I was on cloud 9 but the cautious part of me was saying this is too good to be true…

Low and behold after one attempt at calling her for a second date. I get a text saying that she didn’t want to not respond to me but that she doesn’t want to waste my time. She wished me good luck in finding the right person and threw in an “XOXO”, which only shapened the blade, albeit unintentional I’m sure.

Now, I of course agonized over this and dissected it every which way. Her and I were generally of the same social structure, we have the same level of professional success (I might be a little higher than she is here), and we both come from somewhat similar backgrounds. We seemed like a great match, except physically, which is the only way I can deduce this. The fact that 2 months later, I still see her on Match all the time makes it diffuclt to not feel discarded and rejected as she obviously believes she can do better.

Of course I worried that I didn’t have enough money, muscles, or hair (height is not a problem for me) and while some don’t take that personal, it’s hard for me not to and I’ll say why. I take it personal because it is very difficult to accept that maybe, just maybe I don’t have the ability to attract the type of woman I am most interested in. She was the exact type of woman I’ve been hoping to find and attract and I couldn’t get past the first date even though I did everything rather well (perfect probably not). So, after going on myriad dates and as luck (bad) would have it, the one I am genuinely interested in is not interested in me, just saying “it’s not personal” doesn’t make it any easier to shrug off.

Now I know, “you can’t win ‘em all”, “you’re not everyones cup of tea”, “this is just what dating is”, ad nauseum. All these things are correct and accepting these things are probably whatt makes it easier to persevere. Not “don’t take it personal” because in fact it is personal. Not in a mean-spirited, malicious type of way, but it’s still personal. In effect, the other person is saying, “you don’t turn me on enough to even bother to get to know you.” I’m not sure how to NOT take that personal.

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Why Breaking Up Isn’t Always Personal, and How You Can Make Him Want to Stay

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