Why Did The Romance End After He Proposed?
Evan, please help me with my problem. I was in a horrible marriage for 23 years. After a painful divorce I tried Match.com and met – I thought – a terrific guy. He swept me off my feet. We are in our 50′s. Sex was fantastic — it was like I was in high school. He texted me, wrote me notes, sent flowers, etc., etc. I think you know the story…
We have been together two years now. We are exclusive and he asked me to marry him 3 months ago. “Of course,” I said, but ever since that day, to me, our relationship has been horrible and I cry all the time. He never texts me, calls me, sends flowers or cards… no nothing. He now is telling me I demand too much sex and pushes me off him. He says we will marry when he is ready which is 2 years (once he has paid off his ex-wife’s debts).
When I ask him what happened to the texts, Facebook messages, and cards, he says he no longer needs to do that and that we will be married when he is ready. My heart is broken and I just don’t understand. Please help me understand how to deal with this. I am like a lovesick teen. I cry, try to hug him and he pushes me off. If he does not want me, why give me a beautiful ring? Please help me. Thank you. –Lee
Dear Lee,
I’m very sorry to hear your story. I am not going to say anything to make you feel better. I am not going to try to fix things. I am simply going to tell you (my version of) the truth.
Get out. Get out now.
I know that’s really hard to hear, because of three things:
1) He swept you off your feet and provided a spark that you so desperately needed after a horrible 23-year marriage.
2) You spent two years with him and got a proposal out of it. That’s a significant time investment and deep sunk costs.
3) If you get out now, you’re going to have to admit that he’s the wrong man, start over, and risk a few more years wandering the wilderness of Match.com. Not exactly an appealing option.
Except it’s a better option than what you have now.
No matter how good you may have once had it, your fiancé would make a terrible husband.
Empirically.
So instead of being focused on the three things I listed above, instead of longing for the first few months of your dreamy relationship, instead of fantasizing what could have been if he were only a different person, how about you pay attention to these facts:
1) He never texts, calls, sends flowers or cards.
2) He pushes you off him when you want sex.
3) He is delaying marriage by (at least) 2 years.
4) He believes he no longer has to be thoughtful to you now that you’re his fiancé.
5) He doesn’t seem to be remotely concerned about your needs.
This is all the evidence I need to say that, no matter how good you may have once had it, your fiancé would make a terrible husband.
And you’re far better off starting over to find a good man than to dig your heels in to try to change this selfish douche into a good man.
I’m not expecting that your road, post-breakup, will be easy or fun.
But I do expect you to make a full and happy recovery.
However, if you continue to suffer through this relationship and convince this callous man to marry you, I cannot say the same thing.
Good luck.
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64 Comments »Filed Under Letting Go
I am nearly always in the mood physically. However as a woman I need and want to...
jenny 1
This is my first time commenting on this site although I read it faithfully. I completely agree with Evan. If anything you being willing to walk away to wake the guy up to either change or for you both to see that the relationship won’t improve. I can relate to seeing the proposal/marriage as the goal, but have slowly come to realize that the goal is a happy, healthy relationship. It sounds like you don’t have the latter. Good luck!
david 2
It’s funny, every time I hear a story about a woman getting “swept off her feet” it usually ends with her taking a fall from a very high height. The big bang seems to end in whimpers. Instead I advocate women seek the kind of love that “sneaks up on you” rather than the “swept off your feet” kind.
kiesh 3
This is interesting. So he did a total 180 the minute he slid that ring on your finger? That just sounds…odd. Either way, Evan nailed it.
Lily2 4
Whew!…Brilliant response Evan. i was little worried bc sometimes you surprise me! This is stellar advice. i hope she takes it.
Evan Marc Katz 5
Yes, Lily, advice is much more pleasant when it validates what you already feel instead of challenging you to see things through a different lens.
Ruby 6
Sounds like Lee’s boyfriend is still angry at his ex. After all, he can’t marry Lee until after he has paid off the ex’s debts, at least 2 more years. I wouldn’t agree to that stalling tactic. I understand that she is devastated, but it’s time to take control of the situation. At the very least, tell him no marriage or engagement unless he is willing to go to therapy. If he refuses, then she can walk away knowing she tried to make it work. The worst case scenario is that he’s a good boyfriend, but a lousy husband, and that’s why his first marriage tanked. Best to know that sooner, rather than later.
Birdlife 7
whoa painful to read – and he kept up the act for 2 years!!!!
Jackie Holness 8
Wow, that’s sad…but better before the wedding than after the wedding…engaged is NOT married…
Karl R 9
While I agree that this situation (as described) warrants Evan’s advice, I’m wondering if we’re seeing enough of the picture.
Lee said: (original post)
“He now is telling me I demand too much sex and pushes me off him.”
“We are in our 50′s.”
“I am like a lovesick teen.”
“I cry all the time.”
Over two years, it’s normal for the frequency of sex to decrease by around 50%. (That’s an average, and I don’t have the study in front of me, so I can’t be more precise.)
The average onset of perimenopause is 51 (but can actually start 10+ years before or after that). Mood swings don’t always occur, but they happen for a significant number of women. So does a substantial increase in sex drive.
I’m wondering if that’s playing a large contributing role in the current problems. If Lee’s libido suddenly skyrocketed (and exceeded her fiance’s ability to keep up), that might explain part of his reaction.
It’s entirely possible that menopause isn’t part of the equation. (My wife went through it long before she reached Lee’s age.) Even if it is part of the problem, it’s possible that her fiance’s behavior still isn’t justified/reasonable. But it’s something Lee might want to consider before making her decision.
Androgynous 10
Sorry, but we have only heard one side of the story here. This is not to say that Lee is at fault in any way, but that her perspective and take on the relationship may have been quite different from that of her man.
On the face of it, Lee seems to expect a very “romantic”, exciting, heady romance of the young love/teenage sort, one in which the loved one shows constant attention and flattery, even after two years together. Her man on the other hand, seems jaded, cynical and at his age (both their ages in fact) seems to be after a more sedate, utilitarian, functional no frills type relationship. The fact that he still has to pay off an ex-wife’s debt suggest that he may not have been that keen on another marriage to begin with, but had caved under heavy emotional pressure to propose.
The fact that he pushes her way when she cries and tries to hug him is a red flag, but this could have come about after she had used tears on numerous occassions in the past to emotionally pressure him into doing things he wasn’t happy or comfortable with, and he was just sick of it. I know of many many men who seem callous in this way, but this scratch beneathe the surface and you find men who are rebelling against what they see as constant emotional blackmail.
Sure, Lee should break up with him, not because he is necesarily a bastard, but that given their differences on this matter, any marriage between them would be a disaster. And there does not appear to be any feasible way this relationship could move forward.
Lee should look for someone who views relationships and romance as she does, and to try to overcome whatever emotional baggage she has to be less needy. Realise that a lot of men her age or older are no longer “romantics” but tired, jaded, cynical and in some cases hostile, particularly after a nasty divorce. These men are really not ready for dating but do so to meet emotional needs that may not have been met for a very very long time, and which they are clueless about on how to obtain from a woman.
Lucy 11
She should get a toy boy ’cause he’s 50 and that’s not far from being an old man.
Jennifer 12
Lee,
I’m so sorry this man has done a complete 180 on you, but I’m so happy that, if it had to happe, it happened now before the wedding as opposed to after. You had some good times with this man, but not everything is meant to last forever and these aren’t the last good times you’ll have!
He seems to be one of those guys that feels that once he has you, his work is done. There is nothing you can do with a guy that truly feels that way except be happy he let you know.
I wish you the best in the future and remember- not all guys are like him.
marymary 13
The weakness for attention, romance and flattery is women,s Achilles heel. I get it, I was a sitting target after an abusive relationship. but Facebook, sex, messages, flowers and cards are not in themselves an indicator that you have a sustainable connection. Did you ever have that? If you genuinely say yes it may be worth one last shot. Go out for a walk, don,t cry, and tell him your concerns. Along the lines of ” I feel rejected, that you don,t love me anymore” rather than “you,re a useless bastard.”
if he doesn’t seem to care how you feel it,s time to bail.
i agree with David, the only way to go from the dizzying heights is crash and burn. Did you have a real relationship or were you floating on dreams?
Angie 14
Lee,
The statement that jumps out at me is “When I ask him what happened to the texts, Facebook messages, and cards, he says he no longer needs to do that and that we will be married when he is ready.”
Perhaps, you’re fiancee doesn’t realize that a relationship is continuous work? It’s like becoming the boss of the company, then deciding you can sit back and do nothing. I agree with Evan, but if you do want to give this a second go, just say what is true: You want a relationship where your partner shows to you that you are important.
Do you know why he was divorced? Did he pull this same bait-and-switch on his ex-wife? I also second the poster that said he may not be “over” his ex-wife if he is still spending all this time being bitter and resentful towards her.
The other thought that popped into my head is this: I read an article that said foster children who know they are about up for potential adoption will test the waters, misbehave, and essentially see what they can get away with and if you really have “unconditional love” for them, and if you don’t, essentially thwart the adoption by their own hands.
I also had an ex-bf in my early 20s who played supportive when I went to interview for a job in another city, then became a nightmare when I actually received an offer. I just think people with this kind of baggage would prefer would prefer to be the sabateur as opposed to the rejected one, even though it means ruining any possible future positive relationships for themselves.
I’d heed Evan’s advice and give back the ring. Draw boundaries, and don’t accept unreasonable complaints from him. Don’t whine, either. Don’t whine that you aren’t getting flowers. Just say that the continuation of those behaviors are what you deserve for life, and if that doesn’t work for him then you have to know the relationship doesn’t work for you.
Karmic Equation 15
@Karl
Wow. Never would have thought about the menopause thing. Good thought.
Lee,
If you are in the menopause stage, any relationship will be a trial for the man, I’m afraid. He would have to be truly devoted to you to bear that. I have a friend whose wife went through/is going through this and it was/is a trial for him and he’s been married to her for almost 20 years. I imagine if he weren’t who knows how that relationship would have fared.
On another note, assuming that you are NOT going through menopause, and your fiance is acting the way he is for whatever reasons, you should exercise your option to walk away as Evan suggests AND if he comes after you then, if you wish to restart your relationship with him, you can try to reset the relationship by stating up front what you want from the relationship. If he doesn’t come after you, then you have your answer about how he really feels about the relationship and be free to look elsewhere.
Walking away is hard. I actually did it twice in 4 weeks with my guy. And each time, he did come back after me. Now we’re back together and the relationship is the one I want. It didn’t actually get better until I told him I loved HIM but HATED our relationship.
But it starts with the resolve to walk away and STAY AWAY unless he comes after you. If he does, you are in the drivers seat…and hopefully, you spent the time away from him to figure out what didn’t work and what you want, such that you can clearly state it to him CONCISELY (within one or two sentences). Any longer and you’ll lose him, unless he’s the talkative type, which doesn’t sound like him from your description.
Lily2 16
@Evan Hahaa! Very astute, and of course, Right again!
Amelia2.0 17
Wow, yeah…Lee needs to give the ring back and say “OK, take 2 years. While you’re paying your debts, take the time to straighten out your emotional accountability as well.” He needs to get his crap together on his own. I can’t tell whether he would argue with her, but I would question him putting up much of a fight if she were to give back the ring. He may be one of those guys who just feels more comfortable in a relationship, whether that relationship has any real substance to it or not or if his partner is happy with him. All I can say is return the favor: in addition to removing the ring, delete every phone number, every text history, and every email and email address, with the added benefit of ridding oneself of temptation.
Easier said than done, for sure. Personally, I found it is easier to let go of an emotional investment when I allowed myself to be angry at how I was being treated. Not out-of-control, vindictively angry, but angry enough so that I could actually say, “ENOUGH!”, cut contact, and not give one shit if I temporarily upset his world. That was a lot of social conditioning I broke free from. Anger is often a double-edged sword, but in this case, I think anger cauterized some of the hurt I was feeling– enough to prevent me from foolishly giving things another chance.
Brenda 18
Great advice here, Evan. Having been with a man who did this after we married (I don’t have to have sex with you or woo you anymore because we are finally married), I can definitely say to get out now. He may have proposed due to emotional pressure - his own or Lee’s – and now he is showing you that he is very passive-aggressive and hasn’t done ANY work on himself.
You do not want to marry someone who is not ready to be married. He has a lot of work to do on himself – I would be curious as to how long he has been divorced – I have seen this pattern a lot in men who are newly single.
Give the ring back, and best wishes with dating. I have a wonderful 55 year old husband (who is very romantic) and we have been together two years, married 3 months ago. We are realists and very pragmatic BUT we also believe in making our marriage terrific and he likes romance as much as I do. There are other men out there who do also.
Valley Forge Lady 19
The Answer is very simple…..he checked out….you have to check out! Otherwise you are going to be very STUCK!!!!!
Get over the pity party and enjoy your freedom!!!! I will bet this is what ended his first marriage. His wife medicated herself with spending money to deal with the emotional starvation.
RUN!!!!!! Baby RUN!!!!!! I am 63 and glad to be free! PS. I have an active dating life. I am heading off to the gym to keep them looking! You are not dead…..don’t act like you are and this is the last man on earth. HE IS NOT!!!!
Jem 20
I think Evan’s advice is spot on! People who are saying that “we’ve only heard half the story” etc are missing the point, I think. One could explain away why he wants less sex (age/hormones etc) or why the romance has lessened (or died, so it sounds) but it’s the way he’s dealing with her legitimate questions and needs that’s the massive red flag.
Pushing her off him when she wants sex (or even a hug), rather than kindly talking to her and being willing to meet her needs half way. Telling her that he doesn’t need to bother being romantic anymore because they’re going to be married (again, not being willing to think “hang on a second, if this is so important to the woman I love, then let’s try and compromise”) and actually declaring that they will only get married “when he is ready”. It all reeks of me, me, me on his part, in terms of the sense that her unhappiness doesn’t move him either way, he doesn’t seem to be inspired to compromise to meet her needs as well as his own. You would expect that to me a massive part of any healthy reciprocal relationship…
To me, having (maybe legitimate) reasons for not wanting to do something, doesn’t justify being unkind, or not taking the other person’s feelings into account when you’re dealing with them. He sounds just rude and inconsiderate when it comes to not wanting to do what he doesn’t want to.
SeeClearly 21
I spent three years in a relationship that started off with the constant texts, calls, flowers and sweet gestures. That lasted about a year. During Years 2 and 3 all the romance suddenly dwindled and then dropped off completely. When I questioned it, my Ex kept insisting that he was still just as invested in me and our future, even though his actions suggested otherwise.
So I spent those two years looking for and waiting for the return of the (pretend) guy that had swept me off my feet in Year 1. But he had just been a short-term illusion, and — since I was also fresh from a very barren long-term marriage — I was particularly ripe for thinking that the illusion was real.
Please: Don’t waste your time pining for and trying to return to the fake romance you used to have. This guy is showing you who he really is, and he’s shown you all you need to know. Run!!
Jacquie 22
Lee,
GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN! I am so sorry that you are hurting. It is good that you are seeing this side of him NOW. You will find a nice man who will treat you better than that.
You will find someone better and you will thank yourself that you got out now before getting into another disastrous marriage!
Allison 23
Awesome comment, Valley Forge Lady! Love it.
Valley Forge Lady 24
You were love bombed! I will bet this guy was completely clueless as to why his marriage ended. If the wife left him for another man, he was really steamed. I have seen this happen and it has happened to me. The new single guy does all the cliche romantic stuff, gets a nice lady hooked, once she is hooked, she goes on the shelf.
In case you think I am being hard on men. Women do this too! They hook a guy with sex and all the female goodies like cooking and lingerie. The guy gets hooked, gets married, hands out the credit cards, two kids, and the woman just stops being the woman he courted. She becomes a shopping machine, ignores the husband for the kids and her mom and siblings. oh yes, she gets fat! The guy is stuck!
The online dating sites are full of these people ususally without photos who are window shopping for what ts would be like if they were single.
You dodged a bullet Baby!!!!! Go out with the girl friends and celebrate. You do have girl friends? If you don’t….go get some. They are around a lot longer than most men you will meet! I love men…and I am looking for a great one. But don’t underestimate your need for same sex pals!
Amy 25
Wow, blaming this debacle on the woman’s possible menopause? Please. This guy sounds like a real piece of work. And this business about returning the ring? Depends on what state you live in. In California for example, an engagement ring is considered a gift and need not be returned regardless of whether a wedding ever happens. Keep the ring, you’ ve earned it! Or sell it and use the money to help you find someone wonderful!
henriette 26
This letter makes me think of all Evan has written about “passionate love” only lasting a few years. Quite possibly, this man truly felt passionate for the first two years but now that passion is quite normally & naturally diminishing, he’s stopped feeling the drive to behave romantically. But, no matter the reason for his change; you two are obviously on different wave lengths and it’s time for you to go.
And, @David2, I agree about the disappointment of most who get swept off their feet… but I find it’s more often men who aren’t willing to settle for anything but The Great Passion and who are then shocked and let down by where it eventually leads.
starthrower68 27
I can’t imagine wanting to be with someone who runs hot/cold like that. Especially the cold part. If that turned into a marriage that would be one lonely place to be.
Jane 28
Run.
Barbi Girl 29
Lee, run baby, run! This man sounds like he has some serious issues! Doting on you just to hook you, then showing his true colors once he reels you only screams disaster! It sounds like he played the game well and kept up a certain facade until he felt that he did not have to play the game or essentially be polite and respectful and loving any more. That is not love! That is passive-aggressive manipulation! He sounds very emotionally controlling, too, which in my opinion, borders on the edge of being abusive. He is preying on your vulnerabilities, in knowing that you had a bad marriage before and care about him so much now. That displays a total lack of integrity. No woman deserves that. If you are not getting your needs met now, they will never be met. Also, I question why he would even propose if he had no intention on marrying you for at least the next two years. Why not wait to propose then? I think it is because he does not want to play the “love game” any more, and knows that you are hooked and probably (in his mind) love him too much to leave him, so he locks you in a way to guarantee that he will not be alone. I hate to say it, but he is an idiot to think that a marriage will work like this. No one wants to be 2 divorces, and certainly not you. He is telling you “how it is now,” and if that is not what you truly desire, then walk away for good. Life is too short to waste your precious youth, time, love, effort, and energy on someone who is unwilling to invest that back….in their future wife no less! Sorry to sound so harsh, and sorry that he did not turn out to be the man who you thought he was. Love yourself enough to never settle for less than what you want or need. Best of luck, Lee, and know that good, kind, loving men are out there! XO
Jem 30
@Henriette, I totally see what you’re saying, but surely it isn’t the point whether the passion has slowed down due to time. Firstly, there must be something between 0 and 100 on the passion scale (especially after only 2 years!), and second, it’s the way he turns her down that is suspect and unacceptable: pushing her off him, telling her “he doesn’t need to bother with romance any more” and the whole “getting married will happen when I’m ready” etc. where’s the kindness in how he delivers this information, where’s the desire to compromise… He is totally entitled to his needs and opinions, but I don’t think he’s entitled to deliver those in an inconsiderate, unkind and uncompromising way.
Jem 31
As for the menopause thing… have to agree with Amy. What a ridiculous comment! Again, explanations for why he or she may be less or more sexual is not the point… They could be having these issues over the fact that after 2 years he’s stopped helping with the housework or other things… It’s his attitude and more than the issues themselves that show him for what he is.
Nadia 32
Tenderness toward someone you love shouldn’t be work. It sounds like he’s lost that loving feeling and is making her do the dirty work. Painful read.
sarahrahrah! 33
Agree with EMK 100%, Lee. I’ve been in a marriage like that and can attest that if a man isn’t willing to give, that things don’t get better over time.
Despite this, you will likely be tempted to try to fix him or “make it work.” When I am tempted to do something like that, I remind myself of this wry Ashley Brilliant epigram: ”I will always love the false image I had of you. ” It makes me smile and keeps me in check!
Good luck on the relationship detox.
Karmic Equation 34
@Jem & Amy
Wow. This close-minded, one-sided view, Woman Good / Man Bad, is non-productive. As women, we have to be open to the POSSIBILITY that menopause COULD BE a problem. No one is BLAMING the situation on menopause but simply saying it could be contributing to the problem.
Additionally, LABELING the guy as BAD, LAZY, WRONG, WHATEVER doesn’t solve the problem or help Lee. It doesn’t really matter WHY the guy is doing what he’s doing, it only matters that he’s doing it and she’s not happy and needs to do whatever she needs to do change her situation.
The man-bashing here is crazy. If all of you are so quick to label and bash men without being open to the possibility that the OP could have contributed to the problem in some way (small or big, consciously or subconsciously, even innocently) shows your latent hostility towards men…and probably contributes to your own travails in finding a good man. No man is perfect nor is any woman. If there is a problem in the relationship, you can be sure BOTH parties contributed to it, even if one party has simply tolerated intolerable behavior. Tolerating intolerable behavior is a problem in itself and contributes to the problem. Being needy and emotional is a problem. Crying all the time is a problem. These are FEMININE ways for controlling a man, consciously or not.
I think OP and you may benefit from reading this book, The Passion Trap by Dean Delis.
All this said, the only thing that matters is what Lee is willing to do. The man is irrelevant at this point. The RELATIONSHIP is not a happy one, so end the relationship. She can still love the guy from afar, but the relationship as it stands is not worth having for HER, so she should end it. Period. The guy could be an ANGEL…and if she were unhappy with the relationship with said angel, I’d give her the same advice. Then at some point, if they both so desire, they can negotiate the terms of a new relationship, if they want to give each other another chance. You can’t end feelings, but you CAN and SHOULD end relationships if they’re not working. Both parties have this option.
Unfortunately, for some men, TELLING him it’s not working doesn’t achieve any results. Some men only understand actions. And walking away from a relationship tells him more LOUDLY and CLEARLY than any words ever could that the relationship isn’t working. Then the ball is in his court and you move on with your life…and if he comes back, you have the choice to take him back or keep going on without him. The willingness and power to walk away from a relationship is a woman’s true power in a relationship. Trying, wishing, or asking men to change is a submissive position to take and gives him power he doesn’t deserve.
LC 35
This guy’s behavior is about control, not love. My ex-husband was the exact same way. As soon as we were married, I could have no needs and basically did not exist. It was all about him, all day, everyday. When I would try to broach the subject of never having sex or maybe just eating dinner together at the table vs. in front of the TV, he’d say, “Oh, poor you. It must be so hard to be you!” So I stopped caring after 6 years of trying, and I left. Get out now while you have the chance, and thank God you didn’t marry him.
Ruby 36
For the record, the average age for menopause is 51, and it’s perimenopause that can start 10+ years earlier. A woman’s sex drive is likelier to be higher during perimenopause, and lower after menopause. Some women experience severe symptoms, some don’t experience any, and for most symptoms are manageable or easily treated with natural therapies. Lee’s boyfriend’s male menopause is a more likely culprit.
I’ve observed many men going through a divorce or bad marriage who are all too ready to jump into the next relationship without doing any real work on themselves or their issues. I’m sure women can be guilty of the same, but they are more likely to go into therapy or talk to their friends than men seem to be. And with the divorce rate for 2nd and 3rd marriages even higher than for first marriages, it’s something to consider carefully.
Joe 37
Would y’all be telling the guy to get out if her libido suddenly dropped through the floor, or would y’all be telling him he has to stick around and work things out?
Karmic Equation 38
@Joe
How just like a guy to focus on the “sex” part of the problem…LOL
That is not the only problem, as you well know. It’s the accumulation of all the other stuff plus the lack of sex that is making her unhappy.
I believe that if a person is “frustrated” in a relationship, then working things out is an option. I also believe that we’re each in charge of our own happiness (“Happiness is a choice”). So if this relationship isn’t making her happy, she needs to choose the actions that will lead her to happiness. Granted the breakup will be painful, but if she keeps her eyes on the prize (future happiness), she will better weather the pain with something to look forward to.
Kathleen 39
Lee.
Evans right again
Thank god you didn’t already marry him!!!!!!!!!!! Focus on gratitude for this!
Time for you to start dating and having fun
Good luck
Goldie 40
Wow. What does this dude do for a living, sell timeshares? Whoever mentioned bait and switch on here was 100% right. Time to call it a day.
Joe, if she physically pushed him off her, and if she was telling him that she doesn’t need to show him any attention anymore because they’re getting married anyway, you’re right I’d tell the guy to leave a woman who acted like that, no matter whether her libido is through the floor or through the ceiling.
henriette 41
@Jem – Hey, I never said that this was acceptable behaviour. In her letter, Lee asked what happened with this guy and I wanted to provide another possible explanation, to balance all those above/below who state that he purposely got her hooked with romance and then let his true colours show. I’m suggesting that maybe he’s one of those guys (I’ve known plenty of women like this, too) who was genuinely enthusiastic when in the throes of passionate love but when that wore off, he didn’t want to put any effort because it no longer felt “natural.” In other words, maybe it wasn’t trickery as much as a complete mis-understanding of how love changes with time and requires effort at every stage. Not every person who does an about-face was dissembling when they were on his/her best behaviour!
In any case, what’s most important ~ and what we all agree upon ~ is that Lee see this red flag and end the relationship. It doesn’t actually matter WHY the dude is behaving so badly; what counts is that Lee not accept it.
Karl R 42
Ruby, (#36)
You are correct that the average age for menopause is 51, but the typical range for menopause is 40 to 61. Perimenopause takes place in the years before and after the final period. (I just went and confirmed this. Feel free to check medical sources to see if you find any that significantly disagree.)
Ruby said: (#36)
“Some women experience severe symptoms, some don’t experience any,”
My wife started having sex 2 to 3 times per day. (Fortunately this occurred before we met. I can’t keep up that kind of pace.)
That may (or may not) be occurring in Lee’s relationship, but I can see how it might suddenly create a lot of stress about sex.
Ruby said: (#36)
“Lee’s boyfriend’s male menopause is a more likely culprit.”
I’m not sure why that would make Lee cry all the time like a lovesick teenager, but it is an alternate explanation for why her boyfriend stopped wanting sex as much as she did.
Amy said: (#25)
“Wow, blaming this debacle on the woman’s possible menopause?”
Who is trying to place blame? Lee wants a solution, not a scapegoat.
My suggestion is to consider menopause as a contributing factor. (Ruby’s suggestion of male menopause is also a possible contributing factor.) If either one of those suggestions applies, then Lee has some possible solutions she can try instead of dumping her fiance.
If neither suggestion applies, then she should break up with her faince. Even if one (or both) applies, breaking up still might end up being the best choice.
Goldie said: (#40)
“if she was telling him that she doesn’t need to show him any attention anymore because they’re getting married anyway, you’re right I’d tell the guy to leave a woman who acted like that,”
Lee said: (original post)
“When I ask him what happened to the texts, Facebook messages, and cards, he says he no longer needs to do that and that we will be married when he is ready.”
Goldie,
I think we’re reading Lee’s statement differently. (See the bolded words in the two quotes.)
Lee said “and” instead of “because”. To me, it sounds like she may have tacked a separate thought onto the sentence. The part about getting married seems to refer to her previous sentence (about getting married in 2 years).
Lee very clearly stated that the calls, texts, cards and Facebook messages stopped. What she doesn’t mention is whether their living arrangements changed. I live with my wife. We talk (face-to-face) frequently. Our texts, calls and emails tend to be short and to-the-point. Our flirting happens when we’re close enough that I can touch her.
Goldie said: (#40)
“if she physically pushed him off her, [...] I’d tell the guy to leave a woman who acted like that, no matter whether her libido is through the floor or through the ceiling.”
The only way a woman could push me off her is if I’ve already climbed on her. If I climb onto a woman who has already expressed that she doesn’t want sex right now … that’s rather coercive behavior.
The more that I look at Lee’s letter, the more I think we’re missing the important details.
Misha 43
Everything Barb said in 29. and RUNNNNNNNNN.
Withholding sex is a classic trick in the passive aggressive bag. It won’t get better, he doesn’t care about her feelings and is indeed quite clueless. not trying, not caring, etc all clarion calls of a passive aggressive. they will suck the life out of you until there is nothing left.
and he’s put all the burdens on her so he doesn’t have to deal with it.
RUN. And go work on yourself. Find you passion, your joy what makes you tick. What you need.
Ruby 44
Karl R #42
“You are correct that the average age for menopause is 51, but the typical range for menopause is 40 to 61. Perimenopause takes place in the years before and after the final period. (I just went and confirmed this. Feel free to check medical sources to see if you find any that significantly disagree.)”
I’m not sure where you are getting that perimenopause takes place both before and after menopause. The period after menopause is generally called…postmenopause.
I double-checked several online sources including WebMD and the Mayo Clinic. The WebMD medical dictionary describes perimenopause as, “The 3- to 5-year period prior to menopause during which estrogen levels begin to drop.”
The Mayo Clinic offers a longer definition:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/perimenopause/DS00554
According to the OP, the change in her boyfriend’s behavior started as soon as she accepted his marriage proposal, so it doesn’t sound to me like the change is due to her own hormonally-induced mood swings or depression. It also doesn’t sound like the two of them live together, so the methods of communication he used to use would still matter, and their loss would be obvious. I do wonder what their relationship is like now, outside of the bedroom.
Jeanne 45
Good luck to Lee. Evan’s advice was dead on. Unfortunately, I don’t see too many people who are head over heals with someone having the courage to leave a relationship that is obviously detrimental to them…….They tend to hold on to something that has a very low probability of ever changing for the better. I see it all of the time especially when the couple has been together for a long time.
Nicole 46
Karl R, menopause doesn’t take 20 years. You should be reading that statement that women will start menopause usually between those age ranges.
Some women will experience menopause in their 40′s. Those women will experience perimenopause in their late 30′s or early to mid 40′s, depending on when menopause starts for them.
Other women will not go through menopause until they hit their 50′s, and those women will experience perimenopause in the years leading up to that.
So yes, estrogen levels drop as we age, but not everyone is starting from the same place (some women are more fertile and have higher levels of estrogen), and some women will not go through menopause until later and remain fertile longer (my grandmother was having kids until nearly 50). I’ve encountered women who started perimenopause in their late 30′s. I think that is not so common. And on the other end, it’s not that common to find women who don’t start until they hit 60 but I’ve known of that too (again, b/c women in my family seem to go through it pretty late).
Frimmel 47
The thing I’m taking away from this is once again the pick-up artists are not wrong– be stingy with the texts and cards and gifts or you’ll spoil her and she’ll come to expect it and any drop off will find her wondering what went wrong. The patterns you start at the beginning are not easily broken or changed.
Joe 48
Nicole, you’re not getting it. Karl said the range is 40-61, with an average of 51. He’s not talking about the entire period, just onset.
Anita 49
I always find it so funny when men try to talk about menopause. And periods. You can tell that they don’t know what they’re talking about but are trying very, very hard to understand. (I put a couple of male doctors in that group, too.) Too funny!
Kathleen 50
I don’t really think menopause is the issue here.
(Though when I read this post first it struck me that this guy may have low testosterone. Often these guys get grumpy have no energy and a loss of libido. Very common in guys over 50 especially if he doesn’t work out.)
I think this woman is crying because she was in a horrible marriage for decades and now she’s with an insensitive clod and was about to enter another horrible marriage and waste more of her life on an unworthy guy.
Ruby 51
Karl R #42
““Lee’s boyfriend’s male menopause is a more likely culprit.”
I’m not sure why that would make Lee cry all the time like a lovesick teenager, but it is an alternate explanation for why her boyfriend stopped wanting sex as much as she did.”
I think Lee is crying because she’s heartbroken, discovering that that her soulmate is a bastard. She just hasn’t gotten to the anger stage yet.
She also mentions that dating him was like “high school” and she feels like a “lovesick teen.” Note that this is a woman who was in a relationship/marriage for probably at least a quarter of a century. It’s quite possible that she actually was a teen, or barely out of her teens, the last time she dated.
Goldie 52
The whole menopause discussion kind of reminds me of situations when a woman’s complaints are being ignored and discarded because, oh, she’s just emotional because she must be on her period. I cannot think of any way to sugarcoat what’s I’m about to say… that’s pretty sexist. Also, as Ruby already pointed out, according to Lee things have changed literally overnight, immediately after he proposed and she said yes. I’m not an expert on menopause, but pretty sure it doesn’t start overnight like that – one day everything is great and the very next day, the woman is in tears for no reason, because as of this morning, she’s going through menopause. Pretty sure that’s not how it works! Besides, isn’t it an amazing coincidence that Lee would receive a marriage proposal AND start menopause on the exact same day? I mean, wow, what are the odds, right?
The woman is crying because she feels she’s been played and lied to. Heck, I’d be crying too.
Ellen 53
Goldie is right- this woman has been played.
Re menopause, often the perimenopause period prior is MUCH worse. The latter hits about age 40-45, depending. When you go into menopause is genetic but the average age is 51.
I had perimenopause sorta bad- couldn’t sleep, gained a little weight, but nothing awful, heavy periods one month, light the next.
Menopause was relatively easy, but the night sweats kept me up a little so I went on bio-identical hormones- all of them, incl. testosterone which may explain my continued strong interest in sex despite my age (nearly 60).
But some women are hit particularly hard by menopause. In general, the thinner you are the harder it hits ’cause estrogen is stored in fat and big, beautiful mommas just have more so can navigate this period easier by and large.
My bf, btw, is bottoming out on testy right now by choice and other complications and he’s gotten moody, irritable at times. Read the other day male menopause hits hardest at 60 (the researcher called them “grumpy old men”) so he’s right on target. He will jump back on testy soon though.
For more info read Suzanne Somers, Dr. John Lee, Dr. Christiane Northrup, others. HRT is booming right now, but you have to do it right and not use synthetics. I am particularly interested right now adiponectin (yet another hormone!), and experimenting with increasing my levels so I can lose weight in my gut.
Sunflower 54
Sounds like you could use a diaper change, Karmic equation. Menopause is part of life, just like not being able to get “it” up! If you truly love somone you work through it.
maria 55
Men are competitive. He probably feels like he doesnt have to do all that anymore.
I would say step back. Go on a girls trip. When you come back you will have some flowers and dinner.
LOL@get a boy toy! LOL!
Nicole 56
@Joe, yes, thank you, as someone who actually is a women, I totally do not understand menstruation and need a man to tell me how it works and when it ends.
Valley Forge Lady 57
Alert! Will the lady who started this discussion please check in and tell us that she realizes that the guy is a jerk, she has moved on and that her hormones have nothing to do with this situation.
Also, if the guy sees the light in a couple of months, please keep running away. He is just lonely and horny. HE HAS NOT CHANGED.
This blog has attracted a lot of attention because we have been here. However, time does not change these fools. A guy who dumped me 5 years ago popped up over Christmas. PS he is married. I told him to get lost and warned him the police would be called if he ever showed up. RUN BABY RUN…….Let us know you get this!!!! The suspense is killing me!
marymary 58
if someone has had a horrible marriage followed by a bad relationship, he or she must look to why they chose these relationships and why they stayed in them. It’s not to make Lee feel bad but to avoid calamity no. three. It’s not as simple as just blaming the exes. We have to learn to make better choices.
I am sceptical that a man who genuinely loves you will suddenly switch after two years. Was there no sign of it before?
facebook, msgs, cards and flowers are not commitment and love. Feeling like a teenager and being swept off your feet are counterindicative of a solid relationship. In relationships we should expect some doubt, fear, and conflict. commiment is a big deal and requires sacrifice and compromise. We acknowledge it, we communicate, we push through it. If your relationship is all hearts and flowers and cards and facebook and sex, it’s just not real, and when reality hits it will fold.
We can call him a bastard and chalk this up to random bad luck but I don’t think that will help Lee moving forward. It will simply free her up to repeat the experience. New man, same relationship.
I agree that a full and happy recovery is possible but it’s not when you meet the right person. It’s before that . And then you meet the right person. Relationships are the worst place to work out childhood issues, previous bad relationships, a horrible marriage, low self-esteem. You just get run over again.
Joe 59
@ Nicole: once again, missing the point.
Feel free to chastise me for saying that you know nothing about menstruation, but that is not what I said. What I was pointing out was that you were busting on Karl for saying menopause lasts 20 years when that is not what he was saying at all.
Pe 60
m…listen Lee, when u change UR attitude u change the game. Before u consider leaving give it one last shot but u HAVE to change ur attitude. Stop the crying and complaining, he is acting like a man who feels like he “got” you and who feels annoyed with you, he doesn’t feel inspired to act romantically anymore because he knows that whatver he says or does you aight going nowhere, which sounds like is pretty much true. Start by not wearing the ring anymore when he ask why you say: “i wanna see how this goes before i start wearing it again…”shock wave ! now U are the one deciding when and if U want to marry him, only if he ask u what r u talking about? say: i don’t feel happy because my needs are not being met, and don’t want to get married in this conditions and i agree u do have problems that needs to be fix first. oh yeah ! and start acting like you mean it, stop going to his house, stop calling him, stop meeting him half way, stop doing things for him, don’t answer his calls in lightening speed, go out with friends, dress like a single and fun woman would do, when he’s not in front of u forget about him. But when he calls, comes to see u be open and calm. Trust me what i’m telling has worked for the best in my life ,he WILL do another 180 degree turn again. good luck
Valley Forge Lady 61
Comment to Pe. I would love to believe your story of love redemptiom by simply making the man miss what he almost loses. Sounds like something out of bodice ripping romance novel or TV soap opera. This kind of behavior keeps people in on again / off again relationships. People keep jumping off the romance merry go round and revert to their old self centered ways once the deal is closed.
I would buy the movie rights to a true story of this ever occuring. I am not holding my breath.
I believe in true love but there are a lot of poseurs out here workig their games skillfully and it is hard to call them on it because you have to admit you have been played. I have been taken on this ride and it ain’t happening again.
BTW. the scam happens to both men and women so no man bashing here!
Cat5 62
Evan has always said that if you want to find out if a man will commit, walk away and see if he follows you.
Karmic Equation said @15: “Walking away is hard. I actually did it twice in 4 weeks with my guy. And each time, he did come back after me. Now we’re back together and the relationship is the one I want. It didn’t actually get better until I told him I loved HIM but HATED our relationship.”
That got me to thinking…if you walk away and he follows you…how long should it take for him to do so? A day? A week? A month? Six months? A year?
If you are having enough trouble in your relationship that you walk away, and he follows you, should you immediately take him back? How does that help? When I read Karmic Equations comment, I thought you walked away twice in a month, and now you are happy? The relationship is the one you want? I couldn’t help but wonder, how does that happen so quickly? Or is he just faking a future to keep you in his life? How could he have made any serious change or shift in his mindset so quickly? Should you get back with him to give him time to prove it is a true change? But how is that different that what you’ve been doing all along? Isn’t it just the same old b.s. you’ve been putting up with all along with a different spin? Shouldn’t he have to prove the change before you give him another chance?
P.S. This post is not directed at Karmic Equation specifically, I was just using the situation Karmic Equation described above as an example.
Karmic Equation 63
@Cat5 62
Well, I have a unique situation in that the bf wanted marriage and I don’t. So my problem wasn’t getting a commitment. My problem was trusting that he would stay committed. Remember my bf is a refomred player, who actually has more red flags than “green lights” to recommend him.
The short answer is that I think the length of time between walking away and walking back depends on the combination of nature of what needs to change and the expected shelf-life of the relationship. When I first got involved with him (March 2012) I was only interested in a transitional relationship with a guy that I knew wouldn’t require me to commit emotionally (e.g., “player”), so my standards were pretty non-existent, as I wasn’t looking for a bf (just ended an LTR painfully) and needed a distraction.
I gave this some thought, and I think, for me personally, I have different standards for different relationships.
1) ONS – (attractive, hygienic, not a serial killer/rapist)
2) FWB – Something in common in addition to sex, plus all the standards of (1)
3) BF – Good character, exclusivity, consistency, good communications, plus all the standards of (1) & (2)
4) Husband – Good decision-maker, shared values, shared life-goals, plus all the standards of (1), (2), and (3)
I never saw him as marriage material…and actually was skeptical that he’d be a good bf. He surprised me in that he was actually doing some BF things well and consistently. Calling everyday (twice actually); telling me he loves me; I give him credit for trying to be a good BF, but I always felt he was more of an FWB+ (“+” being exclusive), but our relationship was failing on the communications side. Being a narcissist, he’s never wrong, which is totally frustrating when you want to talk about something that is bothering you. And he wasn’t consistent on some other behaviors, which made me distrust him so he was failing the trust part, too, and I wanted him to change behaviors not mindset. So I actually HAD to walk away for him to understand that he’s not the center of my world.
Behaviors you can’t see change unless you’re participating up close, so I went back and he did change the behaviors (though started to revert back by week 4, but not to the same degree that made me walk, so I put him on my mental short leash for the last two weeks).
I’m speaking in the past tense because I’ve walked away a 3rd time (in six weeks) — and this time, the changes I want are mindset-related (how to be a “good guy” instead of a shady “bad guy”) in addition to the behaviors. I don’t have any confidence that he will change them. He broke a promise, and the breaking of this particular promise (not fidelity, in case you were wondering, although it’s possible he could have) — proved to me beyond a doubt how untrustworthy he was. So going back to him would require demonstration that he actually has changed…but untrustworthiness, alas, is a character flaw expressed by behaviors…so getting back is slim to none.
As well, now that I’ve healed from my last LTR and am ready to “fall in love” again (I loved my player bf, still do, but I’m definitely NOT “in love” with him and never could be with him the way he is) — I will raise my standards back to “husband-worthy” (even though I’m not planning to marry again). I’m just ready for a “quality man” now, which my reformed-player bf was not.
marymary 64
Cat5
my take on walking away that it can trigger a chase response in some men, but it can be more about wanting to win than wanting you. For me personally all it did was extend the relationship beyond it,s natural expiry date.
real change take such self awareness, commitment, willingness, time and motivation that i just wouldn’t count on it. He has to want to do it for himself first and foremost, not because someone else wants him to. And sod,s law if he DOES change he wants someone new to match the new improved him! Not that there is anything wrong with the previous person, i think he will not want to be reminded of what he used to be like. That,s my take on it as someone who did change. I reckon it took over three years to change my bad relationship habits though i admit i was a bad case. I wouldn’t want any of my exes back. Even the good ones. I couldn’t stand the embarrassment!