Why Do I Date Men Who Are Cheating On Their Girlfriends?

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I have trust issues with men, and it can be very difficult to decipher when my concerns are legitimate or due to my own paranoia. I’m attractive enough to draw a considerable amount of male attention and have enough personality to keep them to develop what I believe to be serious relationships. But months later, I discover I’ve been wrong.

In my last relationship, I spent 3-4 nights a week at his house for months. I had a key to his apartment. I even met members of his family. And yet I STILL found out that he was engaged to another woman! And only because he’d forgotten to tuck away his anniversary card.

Being cheated on is bad enough but worse is consistently feeling you weren’t good enough to be the only girlfriend, nor good enough to be the #1 girlfriend. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. I don’t spy on phone calls or snoop through drawers, but I’m starting to feel it’s necessary.

And before you say you’re not making yourself available to the right guys, I dated against type. I’ve been wined and dined by alpha jock types, I’ve done the light studio sessions will fellow artists. Hey, I’ve even done the really effeminate straight hair dresser (He had the nerve to ask me to reassure his lady that we had been using protection when we hadn’t.) And yet I am still the back up girlfriend. HELP! –Sharon

Oh, Sharon.

Your problem is the simplest one I’ve ever encountered in 4 years of writing this blog.

Of COURSE you have trust issues.

You choose un-trustworthy men!

You have AWFUL taste in men.

You have seemingly NO sense of how a good man acts.

You probably wouldn’t recognize a man of character if he opened your car door.

Of COURSE you have trust issues. You choose un-trustworthy men!

So to properly address how to avoid this unseemly predicament in the future, it doesn’t start with spying on phone calls or snooping through drawers.

It comes with looking for patterns in your past, since you’re the only common denominator in your life and you’ve CHOSEN these men.

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95 Comments »Filed Under Cheating

95 Responses to “Why Do I Date Men Who Are Cheating On Their Girlfriends?”

Joe 1

How did he introduce you to these members of his family that you met? As his friend or as his girlfriend? If the latter, they didn’t clue you in that he was engaged?
Francia 2

Interesting…
FeistyWoman 3

“You have bad taste in men” LOVE IT! That is absolutely true.
We tend to subliminally attract the people we feel we deserve. She somehow “feels” she deserves this type of man and for whatever reason, settles for it every time one like him comes along.
Some women have a thing for “bad boys” and they “love” getting treated like crap. They think they’re going to somehow change the bad boy into Prince Charming. Doesn’t work that way. Sorry.
texasdarlin 4

@ Joe # 1. I was wondering the same thing myself. As for Evan, you may not be a psychologist, but you certainly have a gift for what you do. I have to wonder about Sharon’s self-esteem. FeistyWoman (#3) has a valid point about attracting the people we think we deserve. Stop and think honestly about Evan’s questions and I mean really think.
Ruby 5

Being cheated on is bad enough but worse is consistently feeling you weren’t good enough to be the only girlfriend, nor good enough to be the #1 girlfriend.

It sounds like Sharon is settling for second best without even realizing it. Why would she want to be the #1 girlfriend to a man like this, a cheater and a liar?

I have trust issues with men, and it can be very difficult to decipher when my concerns are legitimate or due to my own paranoia.

Personally, I’ve sometimes had a difficult time trusting my gut feeling about a man and I suspect the same is true here. Maybe she doesn’t feel she deserves better, maybe she wants a relationship so badly that she ignores the signs and her own intuition. EMK has also talked about ignoring the positives and believing the negatives, and I know that whenever I’ve ignored a negative gut feeling, I’ve regretted it. Don’t dismiss a negative feeling as mere “paranoia”.
sharon 6

oh so many questions….
1. My parents have been happily married for 30 years. I have 6 happily married uncles.
2. I’m 28
3. Joe- no his family all choose to hold their tongues. He told me his father had cheated on his mother so I suppose it was family tradition.
3. I wouldn’t describe myself as someone with low self esteem. I guess what’s confusing is that all these guys seems to treat me well. The guy the brings you soup when your sick. Opens every door, hangs out with your friends, introduces you to his. These don’t have the overt tones of crappy relationship. I suppose they’ve all used the work excuse or family emergency one time too many but well within the gray area. All them have been very skilled at good through the motions of the good boyfriend. I have been cheated on or cheated with since my my first boyfriend at 14.
4. It’s not like I stick around to put up with this crap. I recently changed my number and moved so the last one would stop showing up on my door.
5. I’ve felt I compromised on physical attraction for charisma. I can see why that might be a problem. But I feel like if I can’t have the guy that I’m attracted to can I least have the guy that makes me laugh and is challenging and interesting. So maybe I have to go with less interesting men. But what’s the criteria for a date when you’ve already stripped away physical attraction and chemistry?
Sarahrahrah! 7

Well, well, well. Perhaps some people *did jump to a few conclusions with Sharon’s situation. Yes, she must have a picker problem of some kind, but there also might be something else going on, in my opinion.

Is it possible that there are a lot of f’d up men in this world and that the more f’d up they are, the more likely it is that they think they deserve a beautiful woman like Sharon? If that is not the case, could it be that sites like match.com, etc. are feeding the egos of men who are Shari’s natural matches at 7+ on the looks scale, prompting them to seek out multiple partners like men are supposedly genetically prone to do? Could it also be that shallow men love the idea that they can keep more than one woman “biting?” Even if the answer is “yes” to any of these questions, it still doesn’t take away from Shari’s responsibility to herself to start choosing better partners, but they also might provide *some* validation for a woman who feels worn down by dishonest dating partners. (Been there, done that, Sharon. Sorry that you are having to go through it in your youth, too, but you teach me not to feel sorry for myself as a middle aged woman who has been repeatedly cheated on as well.) Might it be time to pursue some men who are about a “6″ on the looks scale?!?

My solution for Sharon is similar to what another poster said. Without getting paranoid, look for clues to your partner’s integrity or the lack thereof. Does he protect his computer with his life? Will he let you use his phone on the spur of the moment? Does it seem like he is protecting his “privacy” in any way? In my own experience, these are all warning signs. If you’ve talked and you both want an honest, open, committed relationship — and he’s still trying to keep a lot of things private, THAT, my dear, is a big ‘ol RED FLAG. If I may generalize, men are less fastidious than women; therefore, there is no real reason for him to have to do a bunch of keypunching on his computer, phone, etc. in order for you to use it, UNLESS he has something to hide. Keep this in the back of your mind when interacting with future boyfriends.

I also strongly encourage you to get to know your own computer and learn how to find out the websites he visits, even if he deletes his browsing history. If he’s supposedly in a committed relationship, he shouldn’t be visiting dating sites or using porn extensively. This might seem obvious, but I think it is worth mentioning as well.

Good luck, Sharon!

One last thing: I
Gem 8

How could you spend 3-4 nights a week at his place for months while he was engaged to another woman? Were these all late night booty calls and you were gone by early morning? Where was the fiance’ all this time? Did he have a long distance relationship with her or something?

Clearly the common denominator is you but you seem to not want to see/admit any red-flags, i.e. they all treat you great, bring you soup, open doors, meet your friends, your self-esteem is high - and then out of the blue wham, he’s a cheating scum.

Look deeper. The red flags are there. It’s something about you that chooses these men and ignores the red-flags and you have to realize what that is or you’ll keep doing it.
Denise 9

#6 Sharon

I totally understand what you’re saying. We would all feel the same way if we were in positions where we ended up dating men where they were imposters. There is something that is happening to cause you to choose these types of men. It sounds to me like you are looking for the right things in regard to how he’s treating you superficially, but the reality has been that the same flawed men are being invited into your life.

There’s no easy answer here. And this is not going to be solved with one post. Maybe investing in coaching with Evan might be helpful? Please be very open to what Evan and the others are saying. What is is about you that is causing this to happen? What’s really going on here? Start asking yourself some questions–is it where you are meeting them? Is it signals you’re giving them? Are you too accommodating? What about your boundaries, they could probably use some attention since these men are consistently invading your boundary?

What you describe is NOT a common occurance. Perhaps once, but not multiple times with a similar story. Having said that, be aware we ALL have things to experience in our lives, the key is what you learn, how you can change and adapt to stop it from happening in the future.

Lots of kudos to you Sharon for having the courage to write to Evan to ask about this and to take the feedback here in the spirit in which it’s intended. I wish I would have done the same thing at your age, but I’m not sure I would have been open. Really, be OPEN to what others are saying, then make the right decisions for you.
Denise 10

#7 – Obviously there are f’ed up men AND women in this world. I choose to believe there are MORE men and women of good character out there that wouldn’t do this to another human being.

There’s nothing we can do to control or change f’ed up men or Match.com, etc. The only thing we can do is make better choices for ourselves, work on self growth and do things differently in the future. Suffering over the past or things we can’t control is fruitless. Keep in mind that there is a psychological phenomena where we attract those who are of like maturity. Sure, we can all get burned for many reasons once, but when similar things continuously happen, that’s a big red flag.

I would also say that a man who is a 10 in the looks department does NOT mean he is automatically of low character and automatically a cheater. Targeting ’6′s’ is not the answer. The answer is to ATTRACT men of good character.

P.S. your comments about looking for red flags is good. On the other hand though we don’t want to be paranoid with our men and must trust them from the onset, unless they prove otherwise. Attracting men of good character takes care of all this.
Edinburgh guy 11

“Of course you have trust issues, you choose untrustworhy men”

Couldn’t agree more
Detha 12

Sarahrahrah, you have made some excellent points. I also thought some of the posters have been a bit hard on Sharon. Come-on we have all been there. Sometimes it is hard to spot the signs. Like other posters have said, if Sharon keeps dating the same types of men over and over she needs to take a deeper look at her contribution to this cycle.
Insantiy is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting to see a diffirent result.
Evan Marc Katz 13

@Denise: Would love to know your strategy for “attracting men of good character”. Because I’m not aware that one exists. You don’t attract the wrong men, you accept the wrong men.
Karl R 14

Sharon said: (original post)
“I don’t spy on phone calls or snoop through drawers, but I’m starting to feel it’s necessary.”

That’s counterproductive. You want a man who has integrity, and those men won’t tolerate that kind of treatment. They’re accustomed to being trusted (justifiably so), and they know that they don’t have to put up with suspicious partners.

Sharon said: (original post)
“Being cheated on is bad enough but worse is consistently feeling you weren’t good enough to be the only girlfriend, nor good enough to be the #1 girlfriend.”

Why is this worse? If a guy decides to cheat, that’s a reflection upon him. When my first serious girlfriend cheated on me, it didn’t affect the way I viewed myself. It affected the way I viewed her.

Sharon asked: (#6)
“But what’s the criteria for a date when you’ve already stripped away physical attraction and chemistry?”

Integrity. It’s possible that you’re missing the clues when your boyfriend lacks integrity. It’s also possible that you’re driving away men who have integrity.

For example, I doubt that every person who cheats on their taxes also cheats on their significant other. But if people cheat on their taxes, it shows that they don’t believe the normal rules apply to them. It also shows they’re willing to take a risk of suffering huge consequences in return for a relatively small benefit.

If someone lacks integrity in one area, they’re probably not a safe bet in other aspects of their lives.

Most people who have integrity will feel uncomfortable around people who lack integrity. If you’re giving men the impression that you lack integrity, the ones who have integrity are more likely to break things off.

Sharon said: (original post)
“He had the nerve to ask me to reassure his lady that we had been using protection when we hadn’t.”

Why hadn’t you been using protection? My girlfriend and I used condoms for the first several months for the first several months of our relationship even though she can’t get pregnant. As a matter of integrity, we weren’t going to take the risk of transmitting something (either direction) until enough time had passed and whe had both been tested.
Denise 15

#13 EMK

I disagree with your premise. It’s a well known phsychological phenomena that we attract those who are like us. If we’re insecure, we attract insecure people, etc.

This is not only in romantic relationships, but friendships as well.

If we adopt the strategy to work on ourselves to grow and mature, we will naturally attract men of better character and maturity. (Same thing goes the other way)

There is something about Sharon that is attracting these types of men to begin with.

What you are referring to is having good boundaries to not accept this type of behavior or other types of behavior that are not acceptable to us. Boundaries are super important.
Vox 16

I am curious, Sharon: do you explicitly ask a man about his relationship status at the start? It’s amazing how many men I weed out immediately by asking What is your relationship status? Are you involved or married but are looking for something more? Divorced? Single? as a part of initial email conversations when it comes to online dating.
Evan Marc Katz 17

Disagree all you want, Denise. All you have to do is prove to me that “It’s a well known phsychological phenomena that we attract those who are like us”. Put up the link and I’ll concede that you’re right.

The real truth is that you may be attracted to people who are like you. You may fall in love with people or be friends with people who are like you. But that doesn’t mean that “we attract those who are like us” the way a magnet attracts another magnet.

You CHOOSE your friends, you CHOOSE your lovers. They don’t just materialize out of thin air. As such, you don’t attract ANYONE.

If 100 women write to me on Match and I don’t like 90% of them, did I “attract” the wrong women because of my profile and photos? No.

I attracted WOMEN. All sorts of them. 90% weren’t for me.

I only CHOOSE to write back to 10 of them and go out with 3 of them. If I date the one that is a psychopath, that’s my fault. I didn’t “attract” her helplessly.
texasdarlin 18

I wouldn’t necessarily call it jumping to conclusion. Sharon, as others have, gives Evan and thereby us only a certain amount of information to work with. It’s not wrong, it just is. If I were to write in, I would give Evan what I felt was pertinent to the situation I was writing about. Others reading the post might wonder and want more information. We and Evan are more removed from the situation and can come up with thoughts based on personal and/or professional experience. I know full well that I may not have all of the information when I choose to comment. Although Sharon responded that she does not believe she has a problem with self esteem I still have to wonder. It may very well be that in all other aspects of your life your good there, but for whatever reason your self esteem is not so great when it comes to romantic relationships. Evans questions were/are a good place to start. Sharon stated, “… All them have been very skilled at good through the motions of the good boyfriend. I have been cheated on or cheated with since my first boyfriend at 14.” Your 28 now so this has been going on for half your life. I don’t know how many boyfriends you’ve had in that time and I’m not asking. It’s an obvious pattern and you’ve taken the first step in trying to break it by seeking advice/input/ whatever you want to call it. Here are some more questions to ask yourself. How long do you wait after a breakup before entering another serious relationship? The longer you wait the better off you are. You need to be emotionally divorced (for lack of a better word) from your ex before engaging in another serious relationship. Other than the cheating, what other behaviors do these men have in common? You don’t have to answer us. Karl also makes some very valid points about integrity. The reverse also holds true. People with little integrity often feel uncomfortable around those with higher standards
Michael17 19

EMK, I think I see what Denise is saying. If I put in the work to live a healthy life and ‘do the right thing’ so to speak, and I go out with someone who (I find out on the date) does not, then chances are she won’t want to see me again after that one date, and vice versa. She might think I’m this square goody-two-shoes or something.
I stand a better shot of attracting someone emotionally healthy by being emotionally healthy myself. I think that is what Denise is getting at.
Michael17 20

That doesn’t doesn’t eliminate our need to FILTER though–someone who is a mess might be attracted to someone who has their life together. The filtering is I think what Denise meant by “boundaries”.
texasdarlin 21

@ Denise #15 & EMK #17. It’s not “a well known psychological phenomena that we attract those who are like us. If we’re insecure, we attract insecure people, etc.” That’s counseling theory. If I recall correctly it’s attributed to either Freidman or Bowen. It’s been a while so I could be wrong about that. There is certainly some truth to the statement, but it is in no way the sole explanation for the choices we make in our lives. So much goes into making us who we are. There’s no way I’m going to go into all of it as it doesn’t suit the purposes of this thread or blog. By and large it does boil down to choice and there are certain exceptions to every rule so I’m not referring here to serious pathology here .
Karl R 22

Denise said: (#15)
“It’s a well known phsychological phenomena that we attract those who are like us.”

It’s a well-known pop-culture belief. I’m unaware of any scientific basis to it. The common criticism by scientists is that you can’t prove or disprove this belief.

If you can find some scientific support for this “well known psychological phenomena”, I’d like to read it too.
Denise 23

#17 EMK

You made my point: The real truth is that you may be attracted to people who are like you. You may fall in love with people or be friends with people who are like you.

What I’m referring to is not superficial things like I like to ride bikes so I like people that ride bikes. Or even I’m outgoing so I like people that are outgoing. I’m referring more to those ‘dark’ side, unconscious beliefs that we have about ourselves, others and relationships the creep out when we don’t even know it.

I agree with you in regard to what you’re saying. I am a person who attracts people of good character and of integrity. In friendships, I may attract someone like that, but we had totally different lifestyles–so it makes it difficult to maintain a friendship, so I CHOOSE not to change my lifestyle for the sake of that friendship. Same thing with a man, he is of high character, but I may not feel good about his child raising philosophies–so I CHOOSE not to start a relationship with him. I don’t want drama in my life, I have attracted people to hang out with that feel the same way.

I was having a conversation with a friend over the weekend where she was telling me about multiple instances in her life where men have forced themselves on her physically–the husbands of friends of hers and co-workers. I have NEVER had that happen in all my years of working and all the different people I have met over the years. There’s something about her that is attracting these men to think they can do that to her; I have never attracted that.

The first link has a ton of materials and references dealing with this subject. I don’t have the time or resources or interest frankly to read all these scientific studies, but I pulled a couple.

Then of course there’s the Law of Attraction theory…which I know you do not believe in, but there are millions that do, and I am one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_attraction

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/Group/BussLAB/pdffiles/personality%20and%20mate%20preferences%201997.pdf

Page 134:
They tend to select mates who are similar to themselves and
who embody their ideals.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM0-4D6YX7C-1K&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F1990&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1634686002&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2caf9c75ccc7fd08e424cb3507907182&searchtype=a
Mathes and Moore (1985) found that people were more attracted to peers approximating to their ideal self than to those who did not. Specifically, low self-esteem individuals appeared more likely to desire a complementary relationship than high self-esteem people. We are attracted to people who complement to us because this allows us to maintain our preferred style of behavior (Markey & Markey (2007), and through interaction with someone who complements our own behavior, we are likely to have a sense of self-validation and security (Carson, 1969).
Steve 24

Wow 23 posts already!
Cat 25

Denise said: (#23) “I was having a conversation with a friend over the weekend where she was telling me about multiple instances in her life where men have forced themselves on her physically–the husbands of friends of hers and co-workers. I have NEVER had that happen in all my years of working and all the different people I have met over the years. There’s something about her that is attracting these men to think they can do that to her; I have never attracted that.”

So because you’ve never been sexually assaulted, it must be the victim’s fault? She was “attracting” it, a.k.a “asking for it.” And you’ll always be safe from that possibility because you aren’t the type who would attract a rapist?

This reminds me of someone I knew who said the Oklahoma City bombing (1995) happened because all the people in the building had negative feelings and just, you know, “attracted” it. I asked her if that included the 19 children under the age of 6 who died. Were they responsible with their “negative” energy? She said, “yes.”
Denise 26

#24 Cat

No, that’s not what I meant , it’s not that she was ASKING for it (who would ask for that?!), it’s that she presented herself in a way that for some reason, made men feel like they could do that to her. Just like Sharon is not ASKING for men to cheat on her or lead double lives, but there is something that is attracting men that would do that into her life.

Let’s also give Sharon kudos for kicking these guys to the curb immediately when she finds out what’s been going on.
Gem 27

“So because you’ve never been sexually assaulted, it must be the victim’s fault? She was “attracting” it, a.k.a “asking for it.””

Cat, I see what Denise is saying….not that anyone is “asking” for it, or is to be blamed for it, but clearly when a woman experiences, not a few, but a repeated pattern of abusive or cheating behavior from men then there must be something in her behavior/personality, that doesn’t recognize it or contributes to the reoccurance.

For example, she’s too trusting, gives the benifit of the doubt on things that don’t add up, ignores hunches because she doesn’t want to jump to conclusions, or just plain isn’t a good judge of character. This is what Denise means, I think, by “attracting” those types. Those types can ”attract/choose” easy targets too, btw; they can usually sense who they can manipulate by how that person acts, behaves, talks, ignores, believes……
Karl R 28

Denise said: (#23)
“There’s something about her that is attracting these men to think they can [force themselves upon] her; I have never attracted that.”

I hope you never have to discover how ignorant you are about sexual assault.

Criminals don’t seek victims based upon the psychology of the victim. They seek victims based upon opportunity … is the victim isolated, in a position where the criminal will be in control, etc.

From Denise’s cited source:
“Specifically, low self-esteem individuals appeared more likely to desire a complementary relationship than high self-esteem people.”

Complementary does not mean alike.

Example:
My girlfriend likes to cook, but hates doing dishes. I hate to cook, but don’t mind doing dishes. That’s a complementary relationship.

Furthermore, that document states that I’m most attracted to someone who matches my ideal, not someone who matches me. The same conclusion was drawn in the other scholarly source you cited. It also indicated that I’m more likely to be similar to my partner in “superficial” traits (as you defined them) than in personality traits.

The wikipedia article doesn’t directly contradict your belief, but it indicates that similarity is only one of many variables in the equation.

Overall, you selected articles which undermined your position instead of supporting it.

Denise said: (#23)
“Then of course there’s the Law of Attraction theory…which I know you do not believe in, but there are millions that do, and I am one of them.”

A few generations ago, millions of people believed that blacks as a race were less intelligent than whites. Science proved that millions of people were wrong.

Fortunately science is not goverened by opinion polls.
Selena 29

Vox #16 asked if you ask these men about their relationship status when you meet them – I think asking straight off would be the obvious place to start. Perhaps waiting to have sex until you know a man better, longer may help. Also, really paying attention to things that seem “off” instead of dismissing. It does seem odd that you could spend 3-4 nights a week with someone for months and have no inkling he was involved with someone else, let alone engaged. When you found out, what did he say? What was there that you missed? Chose to ignore? Is it possible that in the effort to be “easy going” you may have been accepting unacceptable behavior patterns?
Evan Marc Katz 30

Seriously.

Karl, pick up a copy of Skeptic Magazine. It’s only quarterly, but what an enjoyable read – debunking all pop culture theories that have no basis in scientific fact.

If I get a difficult or high-maintenance client, it’s not because I ATTRACTED her; it’s because I didn’t see her clearly enough at the beginning to be able to turn her away. How, exactly, can you refute that one, Denise?

Sorry to be all “I’m right and you’re wrong” on this one, but we’re not just talking about opinions; we’re talking about facts. And there’s nothing out there that illustrates that people “attract” certain kinds of people. People may be attracted to you because you’re thin or have tattoos or are into art, but that’s not something you’re “attracting”.

Any women who are still reading this: stop blaming yourself for attracting the wrong guys. If you want to blame yourself for anything, it’s only for letting them into your heart.
Selena 31

Thanks Evan.
sharon 32

For those who were curious:
When I first met my most recent ex I was bartending. Thus, working an atypical workweek. I frequently went over after my shift and given that this is new york at 5 am. He owned a gym and usually worked until close and also had a late night schedule. I would assume the first year of our relationship the “real” girl friend didn’t live with him.
After about a year I starting working 9-5 and he bought a bar. Our schedules were in direct conflict so I starting seeing him less frequently. Seeing as I had been to the bar it didn’t seem that unusual. We fought more about how much time he spent working. Things would get bad and then get better, but the relationship continued for another year and half.
Until this December when I discovered a 5 year anniversary card from his future Mrs. I then went around the apartment and found her clothes toiletries and tampons while he was in the shower. I left without ever confronting him. I felt he lost the right to explain himself.
And that is how one can be in a relationship for 2.5 years without knowing about the woman around for 5.
starthrower68 33

Evan’s right. Wrong guys show up just because they do. Kick ‘em to the curb.
Diana 34

Without digging for the science (if it’s out there), or thinking too far into this subject, I guess I’m sitting a little on the fence with regard to whether we attract certain people into our lives. I do believe that just our natural vibe can attract a certain kind of person. I know that I would never attract a player or Mr. Macho, even in my younger days, but I’d likely attract a minister, including in my younger days. (I’ll let you try to figure this one out.).

If I had to vote, I’d vote “yes,” we do attract that which we are, at least to some degree. In the example Evan provides, i.e. being attracted to you because you’re into art; sure, you can attract this. Your art can be attractive to those who are stimulated by or interested in art. It can be a powerful, silent voice of your soul which can draw them to you, even when you’re not there. Your art can appeal to their emotions, senses, tastes, etc.; thus, can’t your art attract them to you; people who share the same passion as you do?

I know gossipers attract other gossipers.
sharon 35

Which brings me back to the original question… how do identify the wrong ones? I like the trust the bad feeling ignore the good. I like the don’t trust a man the guards his phone. Any other creep detection tips?
Diana 36

Also, and please pardon the double post, but Evan, IMHO I can see where you, aka the nature of your business, would easily attract difficult or high-maintenance clients, whether you picked up on this right away or not is irrelevant.
Denise 37

There are millions of people in the world who believe in all kinds of things you don’t believe in and vice versa. It doesn’t mean those things haven’t resonated with them. It’s obvious that that your advice and guidance has resonated with women who have realized dating success from working with you. It doesn’t mean there aren’t others out there that could give them a different view and also help them.

Advising women (from a man by the way) not to look within themselves to change their attitude and beliefs about themselves and dating and men seems to shortchange them. They will be working on the symptoms and not the root causes.

I just assume we’ll agree to disagree.

(Hope this post makes it through
Shay 38

Sharon, I think maybe you have quite a trusting nature and you show it to everybody. Two timers like unsuspecting girls. As somebody else said, there might have been things which doesn’t add up but you didn’t pick up on this.

However, then you were suspicious, you went around the apartment and found the other woman’s stuff. So, it means you have analytical skills but just didn’t use them.

Not to say that you should be suspicious of every guy that comes your way. But probably you might want to pay attention to small little things the guy says to see if he is an honest person.

E.g. I have a male colleague whom I wanted to pass a discount voucher of a fashion store I know he frequent to him since I don’t frequent that store. He said he had enough clothing and don’t need to get any. Maybe it is what he said it is, maybe he was sensitive about people thinking he is cheap, and doesn’t want to accept it. That is ok.

However, a couple of weeks later, we were notified to go to Bangkok for a work assignment. He was so happy because he wanted to go buy some new shirts and belt because his clothes are old.

Wait a minute, that doesn’t add up. So, he most likely lied when he said he doesn’t need any new clothes. Well, this case is not such a big deal. He could have done it to save face but this shows that he value honesty less than his image to others.

Upon further observation, there were more occurrences like the case above. Other colleagues also noticed that he is not such an honest person in their dealings with him. This leads us to be more alert when we work with him as integrity is a big part of our job.

If you practice this once in a while and highlight contradictory things that people say, indicate that you are uncomfortable and seek clarification, you will sift out the dishonest people you deal with. Because they don’t like to be exposed.

But then again, if you do this too often and for things big and small, probably nobody would like to deal with you anymore.

Hope my 2 cents helps.
Evan Marc Katz 39

Of course, this post made it through, Denise. Your lack of logic makes a far stronger case than I can make for myself. But I’m not going to agree to disagree. Not on this one.

I will continue to insist that it’s not a woman’s attitude that ATTRACTS the wrong men, after all the wrong men are ALWAYS going to be there.

It’s a woman’s attitude that ACCEPTS the wrong men in her life that is the problem.

You’re blaming a woman for these men being in her universe at all. I’m blaming a woman for opening the door, letting him sleep on her couch and eat out of her refrigerator.

I don’t blame you the next time you go out with a jerk, Denise. Stop blaming other women for something that they have no control over – who is attracted to them.

Seriously, the more I think about it, the angrier I get at this cockamamie theory. I had a client today who complains she gets emails from 60 year old men when she’s only 45. You think she’s doing something to “attract” them? Are you kidding? They’re old, she’s young and pretty. So they write to her. She is not to blame. What am I missing here?

Wait, don’t answer that. Please let me have the last word.
Joey 40

Maybe you are just not marriage material or wife material, or maybe they are not Husband material. Do they cheat because they are players, or do they cheat after they meet you? Date them for 3 months max, and then tell them you missed your period and might be pregnant, and see how they react? Bring up marriage and questions about your future together to see how they answer? ASk them about their ex-girlfriends.
Jessica 41

Thank you, Shay @37, for addressing what seems to be the real question here: how do you determine if a guy has integrity without driving him away by being overly suspicious?

It doesn’t seem very helpful to just say, only accept men with integrity. So Sharon follows Evan’s advice and doesn’t blame the next guy for the faults of the last one, she doesn’t give up on men or dating, she leaves him as soon as she realizes he lacks integrity, she asks for advice and seems willing to accept it. What exactly, should she be doing differently?

I want to know too. So I make integrity my first priority in a guy. How do I tell if he’s got it? How long should it take to figure out? Maybe I’m not being clear here, but I find this the most frustrating and least helpful answer I’ve read here. (And I’ve read A LOT because the advice usually is so helpful and spot on.)
Annie 42

Denise is 100% spot on.

I’ll rephrase.

We attract people, who have the same mental state that we do.

This does not mean, that oppoiste poersonalities, do not atrtact. They do. But for that to occur, the same mental state, is required.

IE.

A narcissist, will respond and be in a relationship with another narcissist.

An insecure person, will have relations with insecure people.

A control freak, will have relations with a control freak

A hater, will date another hater.

We may exhibit our qualities in different way’s, but the mental state, is what is required.

Denise, is 100% accurate. I cannot prove it, but it is the best thing you can ever do for yourself, is understand that one thing.

You WILL attract and be attracted by people with a similar mental state, regardless of personality, looks, money or any other criteria. If you date people with a certain make-up, it is because you are the same. If you don’t like them, then I guarentee, you are the same as them.

Denise get’s it.
Lily 43

I think Denise is trying to say don’t have these guys in your life in the first place and Evan is saying it’s inevitable to have them there, just deal with them when they turn up. So definitely arguing about Law of Attraction without mentioning it
I think Sharon is attracting these guys who are already taken, because everytime she thinks of having a new relationship, I’m willing to bet she is also constantly thinking of how she got screwed over before.

Whether it’s called Law of Attraction or not, Evan does an awesome job getting women to believe there are better guys out there and feeling good about relationships…which is the ultimate premise of the Law of Attraction anyway.
james 44

I agree with Evan… Plenty of crazy women have crossed my radar but that does not reflect on me… Just drop the dorks and look for what really matters…
Joe Amoia 45

Sharon,
“But what’s the criteria for a date when you’ve already stripped away physical attraction and chemistry?”
The purpose of dating is to find out if the person sitting across form you has the important qualities & characteristics that you need to be in a happy & fulfilling relationship with them (which is ultimately what most women are looking for). Yes, physical attraction & chemistry are important but they are only two pieces of the relationship puzzle. Individuals who base the quality of their relationship solely on chemistry & physical attraction learn the hard way that a healthy and fulfilling relationship requires “more”.
SO, if u want to learn from u’r past u might want to get clear on what those other qualities and characteristics are. This way it will be easier to recognize a guy who has them.
Vox 46

@ Annie #41
I think you are completely wrong. Control freaks, for instance, do not date fellow control freaks. They date people who either don’t mind having decisions made for them, or outright doormats who are easily controlled. Narcissists don’t date fellow narcissists either – two people who are in it for themselves don’t usually last more than a few dates.
Takers need a giver, not a fellow taker.
Jennifer 47

Denise- Just wanted you to know, I get what you are trying to say.
Ruby 48

I still can’t help but wonder if there weren’t signs that Sharon didn’t pick up on or chose to ignore about her boyfriend, especially after 2.5 years. Even a consummate liar slips up now and again. For example, when she met his family did they seem evasive or distant around her? Did he ever mention his family background or his beliefs about monogamy? If she had dealt with so many past cheaters, how come she never asked about this?

I’m with those who say we don’t attract certain people to us, we accept them. For example, while it’s true that a crazy person may be attracted to, and accepting of, another crazy type, a compassionate person is just as likely to get stuck with a nut because he or she wants to help them. It’s simplistic to think that “like simply attracts like”.
Joey 49

This girl sounds like a big drinker/party girl/420 user who chooses other partiers who are fun and exciting, but not the most reliable people. She is certainly not meeting Men at Church or in small town usa. People are young and not ready to be monogamous.
Maybe she should be willing to share her boyfriend with other girls, if that what he really wants. Unless there is a marriage contract, every man and woman has free will to sleep around, as long as there is a mutual understanding.
Cheating does not mean you have to break up if you have found your Soul Mate. Besides, maybe he is not ready for monogamy or marriage now, but will be in 5 years. Dating is a journey and life is a journey, you can meet as many guys as you want and learn from these guys about life and grow yourself. Be independent, smart, and successful.
Karl R 50

Lily said: (#42)
“I think Sharon is attracting these guys who are already taken, because everytime she thinks of having a new relationship, I’m willing to bet she is also constantly thinking of how she got screwed over before.”

It’s your belief that a person’s thoughts determine what occurs in their lives … even to the point of influencing the actions of other people.

Evan and I believe that a person’s actions (and the actions of the people around them) determine what occurs in their lives. Our thoughts are influential only to the extent that they affect our actions, no further. Our ability to influence others is limited to the reactions that our actions create.

I don’t care how much you believe in your ability to win a marathon. If you don’t train, you’re unlikely to finish.

When my girlfriend and I started dating, we both thought it was going to be a fling, not a relationship. But we also know how to act like a good boyfriend/girlfriend … even if we didn’t expect it to end up there.

Who would you rather end up with, the guy who thinks he’s the best boyfriend you’ve ever had, or the guy whose actions demonstrate that he’s the best boyfriend you’ve ever had?

Most of the time, people’s thoughts and actions are similar, so the outcome will match their thoughts. But if there is a discrepancy between thoughts and actions, the actions will be the deciding factor every single time.

Annie said: (#41)
“A narcissist, will respond and be in a relationship with another narcissist. A control freak, will have relations with a control freak”

You’re absolutely wrong on both of those. You’re undermining your point far better than I could.

If you want another example that fails, abusers don’t attract abusers. They attract people with low self-esteem who will tolerate being victims.

Jessica said: (#40)
“I want to know too. So I make integrity my first priority in a guy. How do I tell if he’s got it? How long should it take to figure out?”

There is no fixed timetable. Especially if someone is as dishonest as Sharon’s ex, they may take steps to conceal their dishonesty. Eventually the facade slips, however.

There are a few things to look for:

1. Honesty/truthfulness is an important part of integrity. If you notice someone lying, that’s at least a yellow flag. (There is a difference between lying and being mistaken. For example, I believe Denise, Lily and Annie are mistaken, not lying.)

2. People with integrity recognize the potential consequences of their actions (or inaction). If I have unprotected sex, I run the risk of catching an STD or fathering a child. Since I want to minimize those risks, I always used protection. A person with integrity may take risks, but they’ll weigh those risks against the potential gains.

3. People with integrity accept the consequences of their actions. When my girlfriend got a ticket for speeding, she accepted that was the natural consequence of driving above the speed limit. She wasn’t angry at the police officer. She was a little upset at herself.

That’s not an exhaustive list of things to look for, but it’s a good start.
texasdarlin 51

Totally off the point of Sharon’s original question, but as someone who has a masters in a counseling field I can say that there is a theory held that people are attracted to each other at their same level of differentiation. Doesn’t that sound like a lot of psychobabble? lol. What it means is that we form relationships, both romantic and platonic with people who have the same level of maturity or sense of self as we do. It has nothing to do with anything else other than that. It does not mean that a control freak attracts a control freak. As Karl, correctly pointed out it is the opposite-the control freak wants someone to control. And will seek out that type a person who, for whatever reason will allow themselves to be controlled. Addicts and enablers are another example. I will say I’ve seen addicts who have paired up, but there’s usually more of an enabling tendency in one than the other. None of these people are well differentiated, no matter how mature they seem to you and me. When it comes to spousal abuse there’s so much more that can play into it than simply He’s a control freak and she has poor self-esteem. To an extent I’m simplifying the whole issue and there are a host of other factors that may or may not play into who we seek out or don’t.
Sara 52

I’m with Evan and Karl on this one: although I think everyone on here seems to be in agreement that someone’s attitude towards themselves will affect how they behave in relationships, I agree with Evan and Karl that there is no convincing evidence that ‘like attracts like’ at an internal/personality level. The research just isn’t there.

Also, on a broader cultural level, I think the ‘like attracts like’ idea has damaging implications, as it suggests that the blame for a damaging relationship lies with the affected person’s personality/self. Evan’s idea that it about how Sharon responds to such men gives Sharon more autonomy and agency.
starthrower68 53

@ Joey #49,

That’s quite a conclusion to leap to without having any more information than what Sharon has given. I’m 42 yr old single parent, working full time, earning a Master’s in Public Administration (online), member of a faith community, I’m well behaved, respect myself, etc. I still have cheaters cross my path every now and then. It doesn’t matter how they got there, be it law of attration, the gods must be crazy, or whatever. When you see what kind of person they are, you dump them and move on. It may hurt to walk away it may not, but either way it’s unacceptable behavior after a certain period of time elapses in the relationship. And making such value judgements about Sharon partying and drinking really doesn’t solve her issue. Even a girl who drinks and parties can cut a bad dude loose.
Ruby 54

Joey #49

How do you know who goes to church and who doesn’t? Church-going men and men living in small towns can cheat too, as can men of any age.
Shay 55

In this situation, I see it as a simple cause and effect thing.

Sharon is a trusting, probably a non confrontational person. So, her friends and people around her like her that way. They feel comfortable around her. Some have good intentions, some have bad intentions. Unfortunately, she might not have identified who has good and who has bad intentions and just happened to chose guys who are two timers. That’s it.

I might be wrong. Or I might be right.

It is more constructive for Sharon to test what I said above is indeed true in her situation. Theory is fun to discuss but ultimately, Sharon needs to know what works for her. I know it should be devastating for this to keep happening to her.

So, Sharon…maybe you would like to test it out with some people around you. What happens when you no longer take what people say at face value? How do they react if you’re a bit more confrontational? Do they explain to you patiently, not trying to hide anything? Do they walk away from you?

What happens when you do this to old friends? What happens when you do this to new friends? Over time, you would know. Because only genuine people with no bad intentions would stick around. They genuinely wanna be friends with you. Those who don’t, walks away.

Notice that I didn’t say that you should experiment with just new guys you meet. This should apply to all people, so you would know if it is indeed the way you treat people that is having this cause and effect relationship.

And of course, you should pick your battles and not to begin behaving like a time bomb waiting to explode at every opportunity.
Shay 56

Oh sorry…(and double sorry for the double posting).

I re-looked at the letter from Sharon and noted that she said she has trust issues with men.

Sharon, were you trying to suppress your trust issues and attribute it all to your paranoia? Therefore, you don’t want to confront all your previous boyfriends?

I think a healthy dose of doubt is ok in relationships. Ultimately, the boyfriend who gets to be very close to you started off as a total stranger.

There cannot be total trust at the initial stages of the relationship. Yet there must be some level of trust. So, some confrontation is unavoidable and necessary. It depends on how “friendly” you do it and on what issues/matters.
sharon 57

For those of who were offended by Joey comment #49, I suggest you read Joey circa comment #40. Either the man has a biting sense of sarcasm or some rare breed of redneck. Regardless, I got a good laugh.

excerpt Joey #40:
“Date them for 3 months max, and then tell them you missed your period and might be pregnant, and see how they react? ”
Shay 58

A thought that Joey (#49) could be member of some weird religious cult flashed across my mind.
Annie 59

Karl, you are confusing differing behaviour, with a persons mental state.

People who abuse have low self-esteem. They will attract other’s with low self-esteem, the other simply having the victim mentality. The behaviour is different, the underlying issue is the same.

I’m not talking about first moments of attraction, I’m talking about relationships. This is why if you continue to end up in poor relationships, you have to look at yourself. If you end up with some-one who is dishonest over and over again, there is a good chance that you yourself, are dishonest no matter what you want to believe about yourself.

Narcisist will alway’s attract narcissists. They will display it in different way’s, but anyone who is highly lacking in narcissistic tendacies, will not be around some-one who is this way for long.
Annie 60

@51

Actually you are correct(imo lol), about control freaks. Being a control freak is a behaviour rather than a mental state. It wasn’t a good example.
Lily 61

@Karl R #50

Good feeling thoughts inspire action that is in alignment with creating more good feelings…when a person takes uninspired action (action based on a person’s uncomfortable thought or feeling, the outcome will be undesired.
The person who wants to be an athlete is inspired to train; training is something they want to do.
Ruby 62

Annie #59

<<Narcisist will alway’s attract narcissists.>>

Really? Why couldn’t a narcissist attract his opposite: a person with low self-esteem?

<<If you end up with some-one who is dishonest over and over again, there is a good chance that you yourself, are dishonest no matter what you want to believe about yourself.>>

I think if you continually end up with someone who is dishonest, it’s because you’re not clearly reading the signals about your partner, or are rationalizing or accepting the dishonest behavior. You may OR may not be a dishonest person yourself.
Karl R 63

Lily said: (#61)
“when a person takes uninspired action (action based on a person’s uncomfortable thought or feeling, the outcome will be undesired.
The person who wants to be an athlete is inspired to train; training is something they want to do.”

My father improved his eating/exercise habits because he wanted to avoid another cardiac bypass (or worse). Based upon your description, that would be an uninspired action based on uncomfortable thoughts and feelings.

His pulse, blood pressure and cholesterol have improved despite his “uninspired” mindset. He’s taking all the correct actions to improve his health, so his health is improving.

On the other hand it doesn’t matter what good thoughts are inspiring an action, if you take the wrong action, you’re going to fail.

Annie said: (#59)
“People who abuse have low self-esteem. They will attract other’s with low self-esteem, the other simply having the victim mentality. The behaviour is different, the underlying issue is the same.”

If the underlying issue is the critical determining factor that causes the attraction, then abusers should end up with other abusers as often as they end up with those who have a victim mentality. How can abusers be less similar to other abusers than they are to victims?

Annie said: (#59)
“Narcisist will alway’s attract narcissists.”

I’m curious how you can believe that two people with these behaviors could possibly get along with each other in a relationship.

Can you find any evidence that narcissists attract narcissists?
Lily 64

@Karl R #63

Those things are working for your father because he believes they will. You have misunderstood what I have said. Your father is taking action that makes him, and thus his body feel good. Your father’s mindset has obviously been inspired in another direction after the cardiac bypass…eating in a way that he believes in unhealthy would make him feel bad. Whether you like it or not, my argument is more logical than yours. Action always comes after thought. Mood is totally dependent on thought. When you are angry you can choose a thought that makes yourself feel better, and it is very likely you would take a different course of action (if any at all).
Lily 65

Annie #59

You are wrong about the narcissist attracting another person just like themselves. It is more likely someone who would allow a narcissist (ie someone who sees themselves as a victim) into their experience would show up. You attract that which you are vibrationally in alignment with, ie what thoughts and feelings about the thought you are offering.

Apologies for the double post!
Karl R 66

Lily said: (#64)
“Those things are working for your father because he believes they will.”

So if my father thought that beer, pizza and watching TV were healthier than fish, vegetables and excercise, his current diet and exercise would be counterproductive?

A healthy diet is healthy regardless of a person’s understanding of nutrition. Exercise is healthy even if a person doesn’t recognize the health benefits.

Lily said: (#64)
“Whether you like it or not, my argument is more logical than yours.”

You think these things are healthy only if a person believes in them. That’s your idea of a logical arguement?

Lily said: (#64)
“eating in a way that he believes in unhealthy would make him feel bad.”

My father prefers unhealthy foods and he’s tired of fish. He eats healthy foods because my mother is the cook, and he has to win a fight with her in order to eat one unhealthy meal. He’s not sufficiently confrontational to win enough fights to eat an unhealthy diet.

And since my mother tracks the family finances to the penny, he can’t even cheat without her knowing.

Lily said: (#64)
“Action always comes after thought.”

You’re assuming that the person taking the action is doing it based upon their own thoughts.

A manual laborer gets the benefits of exercise even though that’s not his intention. He gets the benefits of exercise even if he hates the job. He gets the benefit of exercise even if he doesn’t realize there’s a benefit (besides the paycheck).

The laborer exercises because his boss is paying him to do a job. My father eats healthy food because that’s what my mother cooks for him.

Lily said: (#64)
“Mood is totally dependent on thought.”

That’s correct.

But the benefits of my father’s diet occur regardless of whether he likes the food. The benefits of exercise occur regardless of whether the manual laborer likes his job.

But whether you enjoy the meal or the exercise, that’s totally dependent upon your thoughts. As long as you are willing to restrict your comments to a person’s own attitude, I’m willing to concede that thought is a dominant factor. If you try to beyond those bounds, thoughts are secondary to actions.

And in a relationship (the general topic of this thread) the way the other person thinks and feels are essential elements. You can’t influence those with your thoughts. You can only influence those with your actions. And your mood and intent are meaningless if you’re unaware of which actions are more likely to produce the desired result.

Lily said: (#65)
“You attract that which you are vibrationally in alignment with, ie what thoughts and feelings about the thought you are offering.”

Have you ever experienced random violence?

About 3 years ago, I was walking to my yoga class. My mindset was about what you’d expect … in the moment, looking forward to some exercise and stress relief.

That changed suddenly when four teenagers decided to assault me (probably as part of a gang initiation). It was broad daylight, next two a busy street, two bystanders were chatting about 20 feet away. There was nothing in my thoughts or actions that provoked the encounter.

Your thoughts/mood/belief won’t determine other people’s actions. They still have the ability to do what they want, even if that’s completely contrary to what you ought to attract.
Selena 67

Karl #66
“Your thoughts/mood/belief won’t determine other people’s actions. They still have the ability to do what they want, even if that’s completely contrary to what you ougt to attract.”

Now THAT’S a logical argument. Proven over and over again everyday, everywhere.
Annie 68

@62.

Low self-esteem isn’t the opposite of narcissism. A Narcissist in laymans terms, is some-one who cannot and will not seperate their emotions from another.

If some-one falls for a dishonest person one or even 2 times, I’d say sure, they have some lessons to learn. If it happens in every single relationship from the time you are 14, then there’s something going on with you that you need to address first. I would recommend in this case, speaking to some-one about it before trying to date again.
Annie 69

@63 Karl R.

I wish I knew how you edited your posts that way.Lol!!

I’m a victim of abuse and of a highly narcissistic Mother. I am quite familiar with this as I’ve had to work through it over many years.

In terms of an abuser, sometimes they do end up together. If you’ve been abused in your life(as a child) you will either end up as a perpectual victim, or an abuser…or you will get some help…. or get very lucky. Either coping mechanism, is an illegitimate attempt to heal from the same thing. A person who is truly mentally healthy, will not allow themselves to be abused, or to become an abuser. What looks so diffferent on the surface(the abuser seems the opposite of the abused), will have a simliar underlying mental state(low self-esteem being one of them). They are both trying to heal, but using a different mechanism to do so. You will often find an abuser, will end up their next relationship, as a victim. Not alway’s but it happens quite a bit.

As to narcissism, you gave a link to a narcissistic personality disorder. Not all narcissists will become like this. In fact, all human beings are narcissistic. We are born that way, and there are degree’s of it and it exhibits itself in different way’s.

I hope I’m not invoking Godwins law here, but the reason some-one like a Hitler could do what he did, was because he was playing on the narcissism of the people.

As an example of a very common narcissistic behaviour, is some-one that gets’ hostile, when you disagree with them.
Harriet Bond 70

This is another example of just how damaging low self-esteem can be for women; it just means they end up being treated terribly over and over again! It is true that at some point you have to ask yourself the difficult questions like ‘Why am I choosing these men?’ Exploring these questions may be difficult and painful, but if you don’t you will never move on and have better relationships!
Lily 71

@ Karl R #64

Just because your father would prefer unhealthy food (for whatever reason), he still believes it is bad for him. And yes if your father believes eating pizza, drinking beer and watching tv were healthy, that would be the case for him. I’m not going to address every point you made, because I can’t be bothered

But the random attack of violence. You call it random but by now you must realise I do not think anything is random? I’m sorry that happened to you, but you do mention you were thinking of your yoga class as stress relief…which means you were stressed? It is sometimes a horrible thing to hear that people create their own reality by thought, especially when undesired things happen, but it is what I believe. The universe is an absolutely justified place.

Also, you speak about intent. Most people do not choose thought intentionally, they react to their reality, and when more things show up that are identical to their reality, their beliefs become ‘right’. Maybe if we tried imagining a little more and acting a little less?
Ruby 72

@68 ”Low self-esteem isn’t the opposite of narcissism. A Narcissist in laymans terms, is some-one who cannot and will not seperate their emotions from another.”

I’m not sure where you are getting your definitions or even what they really mean. That’s not the definition of narcissism in the dictionary.

In any case, I guess I’m just not on board with The Law of Attraction theory!
Karl R 73

Annie said: (#69)
“I’m a victim of abuse [...] If you’ve been abused in your life (as a child)”

So you were an inherently abusive child and therefore attracted an abusive parent? Or did your abusive parent attract an inherently abusive child?

I don’t think you believe either of those things. (I certainly don’t.) Living in an abusive relationship creates the abuser/victim cycle that you describe. That’s cause and effect at work, not some law of attraction.

You didn’t attract an abusive parent because of anything you thought or were or did. The abusive parent creates the next step in the cycle. The child grows up in that kind of relationship, and tries to emulate it in his/her future relationships (unless there’s active steps taken to break the cycle), because that relationship seems normal.

So when the grown-up abused child tries to form a relationship (emulating what they grew up with) as either the abuser or victim, they’ll end up driving off someone who is emotionally healthy. Which relationships end up sticking? The partners who also expect an abuser/victim relationship … ones who grew up in similar families.

If you can’t maintain a happy relationship with someone who is unlike you, then you’ll end up with someone who is like you. Again, that’s cause and effect, not some mysterious law of attraction.

Annie said: (#59)
“Narcisist will alway’s attract narcissists.”
Annie said: (#69)
“In fact, all human beings are narcissistic.”

In other words, a narcissist will attract another narcissist, because there’s nobody else to attract.

That hardly proves your point.

Lily said: (#71)
“And yes if your father believes eating pizza, drinking beer and watching tv were healthy, that would be the case for him.”
Lily said: (#71)
“It is sometimes a horrible thing to hear that people create their own reality by thought, especially when undesired things happen, but it is what I believe.”

Then why haven’t you created a reality where you can convince me that you’re right?

For that matter, why doesn’t reality conform to the beliefs of delusional people. If a man believes that he is Jesus Christ, he gets locked in an institution instead of attracting disciples. Shouldn’t his conviction create a reality where his belief is true?

Lily said: (#71)
“I’m sorry that happened to you, but you do mention you were thinking of your yoga class as stress relief…which means you were stressed?”

Then why don’t I get assaulted on all the other days when I’m more stressed? It couldn’t have been that stressful of a day. I left work with enough time to make it to yoga.

Lily said: (#71)
“Most people do not choose thought intentionally, they react to their reality, and when more things show up that are identical to their reality, their beliefs become ‘right’.”

That sounds like a fairly good description of what you’re doing.

I’m more impressed with how you’re willing to ignore anything that contradicts your view of reality.
Selena 74

I’m impressed at how dogged some people have become regarding their version of how reality works. The millions of people who were negatively affected by Hitler brought it on themselves because of their narcissism? Bullshit. This thread is becoming more ludicrous the longer it goes on.

Keep in mind these men who cheated on Sharon were also cheating on another woman as well. To keep two or more romantic relationships going requires a strong ability to compartmentalize. And possibly alot of previous practice. Hard to determine this *trait* when one is first dating; in fact it might not show up until years into the relationship. She can work on her “picker” but only she can identify the traits these cheating guys had in common – if any.
Lily 75

@ Karl R #73

A man who believes he is Jesus Christ would end up in a mental institution because most likely he has had a strange childhood or life. Even though this man is hypothetical I am going to assume he is not coming from a place spirituality. Also who are you to say he would not have gained a following?

The time you got assaulted, you may have set that into motion a long time ago…time is only a man made function.

And you are right, if I were to follow what I’m saying here I wouldn’t even want to argue. I haven’t convinced you I am right because my own vibration / thoughts/ feelings are getting screwy in arguing. Although we have different beliefs, we are in a vibration of resistance when arguing and therefore neither of us will get thru to the other. And on that point, no further comments from me

Maybe we’ll speak on another thread Karl
Karl R 76

Lily said: (#75)
“Even though this man is hypothetical I am going to assume he is not coming from a place spirituality. Also who are you to say he would not have gained a following?”

Why would I use a hypothetical example when I can use a real one? I embedded the following link in my previous post, but you appear to have overlooked it.
http://www.slate.com/id/2255105

Or if you prefer a more in-depth look at my non-hypothetical example, go to the library and check out “The Three Christs of Ypsilanti” by Milton Rokeach.

Lily said: (#75)
“The time you got assaulted, you may have set that into motion a long time ago”

Let’s see. Four teenagers (whom I’d never met) decided to walk through my neighborhood (where they didn’t live) and commit multiple criminal acts upon multiple people (most of whom didn’t know each other) because my/our thoughts set up a vibration?

It seems a bit more likely that four teenagers decided to walk through my neigborhood (where no witnesses would recognize them) and perform various criminal acts (possibly as part of a gang initiation) upon targets of opportunity that happened to cross their path.

Of course, their actions led to a fair amount of unpleasant reactions.

Lily said: (#75)
“I haven’t convinced you I am right because my own vibration/thoughts/feelings are getting screwy in arguing.”

Or maybe I’m resistant to your persuasion because you’re wrong.

I haven’t even been trying to persuade you. I’ve just been giving you the opportunity to persuade everyone else that your beliefs are illogical.

If my thoughts could affect you, I could have accomplished this by sitting here and vibrating. But I was able to accomplish the same thing by acting (typing responses into my computer) in such a way that it influenced your reactions.

It’s one of those byproducts of me choosing my thoughts (and actions/reactions) intentionally.

But if you want another way to demonstrate your ability to create reality by your thoughts/feelings/vibrations, make yourself grow young and pretty and remain that way for all eternity.
Sayanta 77

Ok- since we’re talking about good men, I thought I’d let you guys know about this new book that’s out called “Why There Are No Good Men” left- catchy, heartwarming title, eh? LOL From what I’ve read in reviews, it seems to be the equivalent of kicking a brick wall barefoot just for fun

http://www.amazon.com/Why-There-Are-Good-Left/dp/0767906403/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Annie 78

@73 Karl.

As indicated, I am talking about the realtionships you choose to engage in.

Obviously as a child, I did not choose my parents. My parents however, did choose each other. And they both suffer from low self-esteem and have a fairly high degree of narcissism. As such, they created 3 narcissistic children, with low self-esteem. My oldest sisters partner, is as narcissistic as she is. My middle sister and I worked on our issues, and as such have much healther friendships and relationships now. Prior to me working on my issues, I continually dated narcissistic and manipulative men, and had narcissistic and manipulative friends. That’s because I was manipulative and narcissistic.

I am not talking about mere attraction here, but who you ultimately choose to be in relationships with. You will end up choosing people, who do not have a lot of differentiation between their mental state and yours.

For example, since you Karl, display a distinct lack of narcissistic tendancies(only going on what you say here obviously), I can make a fairly certain judgment call, that your partner is the same. I don’t even need to meet her.

This isn’t some weird force, or voodoo, or interplanatary alignment types concepts. It is just the way human relationships are, which is why if you often end up choosing the same kind of people, you may need to look at yourself first. Sounds harsh, but it is the only way to fix things in the long term.
Lily 79

@Karl R #76

Make myself grow young and pretty? I’m 19
Catherine 80

“Which brings me back to the original question… how do identify the wrong ones? I like the trust the bad feeling ignore the good. I like the don’t trust a man the guards his phone. Any other creep detection tips?”

Hello Sharon, I’ve been with a guy who had a double life…. I went out with a guy for two years who it turned out had another gf he’d been with on and off for seven years (and he lived with both of us for a couple of months, while supposedly living with his brother!). Neither of us knew, but in retrospect all the signs were there. I found out at a later date when she knocked on my door.
He had some things that helped him do this, he lived in different city for part of the relationship, I met some of his friends before he’d split with her, and I think they knew he’d lied when they asked me when we’d got together.
Thinking of how to work things out for the future, it is about trusting your gut feeling (the bad feeling you mention above). If you’re on a date with someone, and something niggles/doesn’t feel right I’d always ask myself now “What’s that about?” Before, I’d kind of ignored it or talked myself into believing I’d imagined it, now I try not to do that. It’s also about getting out sooner rather than later.
I had a pretty dysfunctional upbringing, so if something isn’t right I also think “Why is this triggering me, who or what does he remind me of?”
And I do not believe for a second you attract people (or that I do). In my case, it was originally because I was more used to being around people with questionable behaviour growing up (lying, cheating, emotionally and physically abusive). I’d find something uncomfortable and not right but instead of walking away I’d bury my feelings and even think it must be me. And this is why certain people stayed in my life, I didn’t attract them but they knew they could stay and keep pulling the wool over my eyes. I’m not saying I was perfect in the way I’ve acted, I’ve done some not great things, but it pales in comparison with what I generally put up with. May not be the case with you, but thought I’d mention it.
For me now, it’s about spotting the red flags and not putting up with certain things. Someone called Joseph Carver wrote several articles on “losers” on relationships on a site called counselling resource.. I think these articles are great, were very useful to me.
Another book I read was “how to spot a dangerous man” by Sandra Brown. I don’t agree with all the book however she talks a lot about checklists, red flags to look out for. One of them I remember being that some women don’t question men in their lives.. it’s not about nagging but I can remember knowing what she meant. I’d have often not wanted to ask too much in case my exes said to me “What are you on about, don’t you trust me?”.
Anyway.. it does get better, the more you work at it. I’m not quite there and maybe I’m on the extreme end as I’ve been out with a lot of people who have sociopathic tendencies, but I’m getting there.
Good luck with it.
Karl R 81

Annie said: (#78)
“Prior to me working on my issues, I continually dated narcissistic and manipulative men, and had narcissistic and manipulative friends. That’s because I was manipulative and narcissistic.”

I agree with you that the scenario you describe (where someone choses someone similar to them) is a possible scenario. Given your background with two parents who shared the same traits, I can see why you would think it was the probable explanation.

My parents are very different. My mother is almost a textbook example of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Without my father, she’d still be functional in society, but just barely. My father is relatively normal (other than acting as her enabler). While I have traits from both, I’m more like my father than my mother.

But in the first 18 years of my life, my mother was a key player. A lot of her behaviors defined what I considered “normal.” I realized she wasn’t normal, but only her most excessive deviations actually registered as being abnormal. The rest of her behaviors seemed normal and familiar to me. I’d seen them my entire life.

Because of that, I failed to see some red flags in a few of my early relationships. My expectations for normal behavior weren’t normal.

I can’t tell you whether that’s what’s happening with Sharon, but it’s at least consistent with the known facts. She has trust issues. She’s incapable of recognizing the warning signs of liars … not once, but repeatedly.
texasdarlin 82

Everybody has their own beliefs about how we humans work. There’s been a lot of research done on the matter and with time, theories have changed. It wasn’t all that long ago psychologists believed that Schizophrenia was caused by mothers giving mixed messages to their children. Not really the case as it turns out. Karl, in this last post talking about his mother-I’m impressed that he’s been willing to share so much, makes some valid points. Regardless of whatever else you believe some behaviors become normalized. That does not mean the behavior it self is healthy. I don’t equate normal with healthy. Too many of the people I work with come from severe dysfunction, but that’s normal behavior simply because it is all they know. It is by no means healthy. We can all theorize ad nauseum as to why Sharon or any of us have issues, but as Karl said his expectations of normal weren’t normal. Karl gave us a very specific reason as to why. Sharon did not. Sharon did provides us with some additional information, but, (with a few exceptions), this thread has long since become something other than what the original questions was about and before everybody starts fussing at me I’m aware that I’ve contributed to that. But then again maybe Sharon’s gained some useful insight. At least I hope she has.
sharon 83

Trusting the bad feelings is great advice. But I have bad feelings about all the men I come across. “My gut instincts” are just a little off. Theoretically I have crossed paths with some respectable men in my life along with the jerks I’ve chosen to date. So I think I need more practical advice. Thanks Catherine. I’ll check out the books you’ve mentioned.
starthrower68 84

While I agree that chemistry is important, values-based dating is probably the most effective. Evan talks about this all the time, even though he calls it something different. Sharon, as you grow wiser, you’ll learn to date more deliberately and spend less time wondering what happened after it breaks bad. It’s a learning process.
Joey 85

Sharon, the bad news is that you are probably not as attractive, either in personality or in looks, as you need to be in order to keep a man. They are choosing other women instead of you and are using you because you may be not that smart to catch on to their double lives. You are not seen as a long-term partner/wife. I don’t know the reasons why these men chose the Other Women, but there were differences, and specifically areas that you were lacking in, and they found in these other girls. The good news, is that you can make yourself irresistible to men if you focus on making yourself a better and more attractive person and caring future spouse. It will be easier to focus on your own qualities, than it is not changing, and scaring off every other future boyfriend.
Cat 86

Joey #85 said: “Sharon, the bad news is that you are probably not as attractive, either in personality or in looks, as you need to be in order to keep a man.”

Frankly, that’s just bullshit. You can be a “10″ in looks, wealthy, successful, famous and still be cheated on. Take a quick look at some celebrities that are generally accepted as 10′s and who were cheated on: Sandra Bullock, Halle Berry, Elizabeth Hurley…

Yes, people (men and women) should work at being attractive and fit, but that is no insurance that they won’t be cheated on.
Joey 87

Cat, a lot of Men cheat, which is expected and acceptable in today’s culture. But Sharon has stated that her many boyfriends always leave her for a better girlfriend. In Sharon’s case, she is not good enough to be a wife of these Men. I don’t know her personality, so I can’t determine why these Men chose someone else, but the relationship was not heading towards marriage. Its not just looks, but having the right personality to be a good wife and partner and mother. A lot of Women have GREAT Personalities and make great Mothers and Wives, and can stay married. Its not just about Looks. As a side note, what is the “expiration date of a relationship” – maybe these Men just did not want to marry her and found some one better. It may be one month, six months, or 2 years, but most dating relationships end some time, unless Sharon really did see herself married to one of these guys.
Selena 88

Amen Cat. Especially in light of the high statistics given on cheating and reasons given for it.

Did you read that article Joey?
Joey 89

Selena, just because someone is attractive does not mean they can hold onto a husband. She has to have the personality of being a good spouse as well. If Sharon has 8 boyfriends and all of them left her for someone else, then Sharon is Both not seen as a Good Girlfriend and not choosing compatible Men. These Men are NOT Cheaters, they Settled Down with another women, that they found more compatible, fun, and an enjoyable partner in their future together. I Blame Sharon for not choosing the right men for her, and for not being a good enough spouse to keep these men. Because these Men are running away from Her, if she was their Ideal, then they would want to stay with her. Its about compatibility and finding a Man who will choose you as their Number One priority.
Selena 90

Blarney Joey. These men aren’t running away, they are choosing to string along 2 (or more?) women at the same time, unbeknownst to each other. It’s dishonest plain and simple. They ARE CHEATERS, on both women involved, and it is their personality that is at heart the problem.
Karl R 91

Joey said: (#89)
“These Men are NOT Cheaters, they Settled Down with another women,”
Sharon said: (original post)
I STILL found out that he was engaged to another woman!
Sharon said: (#32)
“that is how one can be in a relationship for 2.5 years without knowing about the woman around for 5.”

Joey, the man was dating his (now fiancee) for 5 years. For 2 1/2 of those years, he had an affair with Sharon. Unless he and his fiancee have an explicitly open relationship (which seems unlikely, since people in open relationships are typically explicitly open with all of their partners), then he was cheating on his fiancee.

Reading comprehension for the win.

Joey said: (#49)
“Cheating does not mean you have to break up if you have found your Soul Mate.”

Um … did you change your mind about whether it was cheating?

I’m curious, of your past relationships where your partner cheated on you, have you decided to stick with that person because they were your “soul mate”?

Joey said: (#49)
“Unless there is a marriage contract, every man and woman has free will to sleep around, as long as there is a mutual understanding.”

Sharon didn’t know about the other woman. There’s no indication that the other woman knew about Sharon. How can there be a “mutual understanding” if only one partner is in the know?

Joey said: (#40)
“Date them for 3 months max, and then tell them you missed your period and might be pregnant, and see how they react?”

How well has that strategy worked in your previous relationships?

Joey said: (#87)
“Sharon has stated that her many boyfriends always leave her for a better girlfriend.”

Where did Sharon say that?

She said that these men have girlfriends, then they start having affairs with Sharon (without breaking up with their other girlfriend). It doesn’t sound to me like they’re “leaving” anyone.
Kurt 92

Sharon prefers these cheaters – it is so obvious. She probably thinks that single guys she meets are “boring,” but likes the players who come across as partially unavailable. Of course, those players are frequently unavailable because they are dating other women. I can pretty much guarantee that Sharon is extremely self-centered – women like Sharon get what they deserve.
Bee 93

I agree with Denise #15 and Karl R. #81. We DO tend to attract what we think we deserve/what we are used to/those who are like this. I have had many a therapist and psychology professor tell me that. If you are insecure, you will attract someone who is also insecure, etc. Sharon may believe she does not have low self-esteem, but it’s still entirely possible that she does. Not many people recognize that about themselves or if they do they’re too proud to admit it. It’s also possible she has fears about intimacy and attracts men who are unavailable in some way so the relationship cannot progress past a certain point. This is probably unconsciously done.
Evan Marc Katz 94

It’s not “attract”, Bee. It’s “accept”. The only person who can “accept” someone with low-self-esteem is someone ELSE with low-self-esteem. People don’t fly into your world because you’re a magnet. If I meet someone with low-self-esteem, I distance myself because it’s toxic and draining. On the other hand, the insecure person “accepts” that same toxicity and then complains that she “attracts” the wrong men.

The only difference is your tolerance for pain. At this point in my life, I have very little of it. Anyone who dates selfish and unavailable people clearly has a much higher threshold for being mistreated – and, likely, lower self-esteem.
John 95

Once the trust is gone it is sometimes gone forever. If a couple get back together after someone has cheated they will always be looking out for the signs their partners is cheating again.

If some cheats on their partner then the will cheat on the person who they have moved onto a new relationship with.