Why Do Women Have to Change? Why Do Men Get a Free Pass?
720 women (and a coupla guys) have filled out my survey so far, and the results have been astounding. So many interesting, heartfelt, vulnerable questions, which, if I didn’t have a day job as a dating coach, I would love to answer, one by one.
Many of the questions come from a genuinely curious place and there are simple, straightforward answers:
“Where do I meet quality men?” (everywhere, including online)
“What qualities are men really looking for?” (fun, attractive, easygoing, nurturing)
Why do they profess to like independent women but chose women who rely on them for financial and emotional support? Why do they want a woman who is needy? (men want to feel important and needed; independent women don’t provide that feeling)
But, to me, the juiciest question I received out of all of them – and I got it two or three times – is one that has been asked periodically on this blog:
Why are women expected to change the way they operate in order to be “successful” in relationships, but men get a pass?
Sigh. If you’ve been reading for awhile, you know how strongly I feel about this subject, how I’ve taken to the comment boards to defend myself, how it genuinely pains me when readers misunderstand the role of dating advice.
Dating advice is for the person who asks the question. It is not for the man who is the cause of the “problem”.
So let’s all get on the same page with this:
Dating advice is for the person who asks the question. It is not for the man who is the cause of the “problem”.
Therefore any woman who asks me whether her boyfriend should change will be met with one of two responses: given that you can’t change men (and yes, this is a given), you should either a) accept him, or b) leave him. Sometimes, there’s a c) discuss your feelings with him, but mostly my advice is of the “stay or go” variety.
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56 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Steve 1
You can’t control other people, so the only advice a dating coach could give to a woman is how to change her behavior in response to the dating world.The dating coach can’t change the dating scene or show his/her clients how to do it.
Basic stuff about being an adult.? Having to deal with the world as it is, “shoulds”,? “musts” and holding your breath until you turn blue not withstanding.
starthrower68 2
You have to know, going in, what are dealbreakers, and what are not.? Lying, cheating, addiction, lousy character and integrity are all dealbreakers.His being conservative as opposed to you being liberal are not necessarily deal breakers (or at least I say love trumps politics). But core values are generally things people can’t compromise on.
sayanta 3
Great post- I’m thinking though- it’s weird (and interesting) that even though women are mostly the market for dating advice, so many men post on this blog (interesting, thoughtful posts on that)- it seems close to 50/50 here.
HRGoddess 4
@ Steve
Amen, I’ve been telling my friends the same thing for years now.
Steve 5
@Sayanta? #3
?
I can’t speak for the other men here, but if you are a guy interested in talking about dating your choice is blogs like Evan’s? or forums for PUAs. The latter choice usually has a low ambient maturity level and if focused purely on pickup,? not anything that may come afterward.
I’m not saying that is true of all who like to read PUA stuff, but only that is true of the majority of the lit & discussions out there.
Jennifer 6
Love the post Evan! I believe your point was well made.
Although I’ve got to say, I wouldn’t be? bored reading a blog where my beliefs were constantly validated, since I’m a big fan of my current belief system and?it’s?working for me; but for me to get here someone had to challenge my old beliefs…so yeah. I get why you don’t do that. Plus, there are plenty of other venues for that.
JuJu 7
I am largely only an observer in all this, since getting married again is of absolutely no importance to me, and I pretty much decided that I am not willing to make all the sacrifices required for having children – and this is precisely the crux of the matter. Women need to adjust more simply because they want more from relationships than men do. Love and marriage (and especially children) are not nearly as important to men as they are to women. How does that saying go, the power within the relationship lies with whoever cares less? Well, there you go, even though this may be a non-traditional interpretation of it.
As for the entire self-help genre:? I just watched The Ugly Truth recently, where one piece of advice to women was no criticism (of men), even if it is constructive. The guy then explained, “For men self-improvement ends at toilet training.”
I know things aren’t quite as bleak in reality
, but just saying…
JB 8
Sayanta,there are guys like myself,Steve and the other men on here that like to absorb knowledge from everywhere as well as give the men’s side of the equation on Evan’s opinion’s and those who write to him.Wouldn’t it be boring on here with no men?
sayanta 9
JB-
Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but it sounds like you (mis)interpreted my comment to mean I want this to be an all-female forum. I was just making a casual observation.
starthrower68 10
@Ju Ju #7,
I think I understand what you are saying, but just to clarify, should women stop wanting marriage, family, etc.? I’m seriously? not trying to be flip or argue. I just want to be sure I’m understanding.
sayanta 11
Starthrower-
Re: JuJu’s comment- I can’t speak for her- but I don’t think she’s saying women should stop wanting marriage, family- but that they shouldn’t expect to be satisfied in relationships because they’re going to be the only ones to care about the relationship (or family).
If that’s what you meant, JuJu- all I can say is, I hope I never become jaded enough to think that.
JuJu 12
No, no, I was only referring to that whole discussion that started under “Do you want advice or do you want validation?” Remember the comments? It all started from toilet seats, but then moved to a more general “Why are women given all this advice on how they are supposed to be and act in order to get a man, whereas men are not?”
JuJu 13
Sorry, should have added the following:
because, first of all, they are the ones that ask, as Evan already pointed out, and secondly, because apparently they have a greater need of the whole thing.
Casey 14
“So could I write a manifesto about how men need to be better listeners, more consistent, less interested in sex, more long-term thinkers, more sensitive, more strong, more fit, more flexible, etc. Sure. But who would I be writing it for?”
Ummmmm…I’m thinking the 90% of women who write the questions to you Evan. Sometimes (like maybe once a quarter in a blog entry) it would be nice to hear you say it and know that you aren’t putting it all on us women…that you understand what we deal with on a regular basis…not just what we can do for men. It made me feel that way when I read the quote above in today’s blog entry.
Lorianne 15
@JuJu — I think you hit it right on the head.? As long as women are more invested in relationships than men, then men will get away with being the way they are.? I disagree that men don’t change. Men don’t change only BECAUSE? THEY DON’T HAVE TO.? If women stopped taking on 75 or 90 or even 100% of the work of maintaining a relationship, men would have to take up the slack or (as EMK often insists to women) remain single a long time.
I am of the same mindset as JuJu.? Relationships are wonderful, but not worth the price in a lot of cases.? Sorry, but it’s not enough to tell women “leave if he’s really a jerk.”? That still allows a lot of men to be jerks and (this is the important part) go on thinking that this sort of behavior is OK.
starthrower68 16
What’s interesting about that post is, we are back to the $64K question: how does a woman be and not be at the same time? Attentive but not clingy; interested but not too interested, etc.? I tend to err on the side of caution and?maybe hold back when I should put forth a little more effort.
Evan Marc Katz 17
@Casey – I would refer you to my original post if you want to know why I’m “putting it on” women. Because men aren’t asking me for advice. If men asked me for advice, I’d be “putting it on” them equally. Why is this so hard to understand? I’m simply not going to answer questions that men aren’t asking me. I’m going to answer questions that women ask me – particularly ones that require them to learn, grow or change. And do you really think, Casey, that I’d be well served to write a manifesto about how men can change…so that women can read it? I could title it, “You Go, Girl! 434 Things To Hate About Men in Relationships”. And we could all nod our heads and laugh and agree that men make lots and lots of mistakes. And while the world wouldn’t change one bit (because no men are reading the book) you would at least feel validated. Sorry, darling. Not the best use of my time.
@Lorianne – Hate to tell you, but you’re mistaken about something:
“Sorry, but it’s not enough to tell women ‘leave if he’s really a jerk.”
Actually, it is. Because if every time a woman dumps a guy for being a jerk, he realizes he can’t get any women by being a jerk, he has a lot of incentive to stop being a jerk. The real problem is that women DON’T walk away from these guys and thus become enablers of these jerks.
After all, a guy can’t text message you, “What R U wearing right now?” once every two weeks, unless you bothered to write back to him.
So seriously? Stop blaming men for being jerks. Your power lies in cutting the cord with those jerks, not in complaining about them.
Finally, to your point: “If women stopped taking 75 or 90 or 100% of the work of maintaining a relationship…” This is a myopic and egregious miscalculation, which pits women against men in a false battle, instead of realizing that good men are working quite hard to please you. If you truly believe that women put in 75-100% of the work, it’s no surprise that you would not want to bother with a relationship.
Thanks for your contribution to my blog.
JuJu 18
I just want to add to this: a relationship where you are doing all the work is a relationship only you want to be in.
JuJu 19
I think my point was somewhat misconstrued: I personally will not settle for anything less than love at this stage of my life – casual sex leaves me feeling unfulfilled. I just try to stay true to myself while looking for it. At the end of the day I want to be able to respect myself.
Sometimes it’s not just outright abuse I won’t tolerate, but things like not calling back when he said he would (without a good reason). If the guy says “I’ll call you later” and then calls in three days, he pretty much made my sh*tlist.
Starthrower, as for how to act: I doubt I am any sort of paragon in this, but I am just real when it comes to men. I am quite confident and have a busy life, so I probably won’t seem needy to anyone in any case. One former bf (the operative word being “former”) kept telling me that the seduction is never supposed to end (he was referring to playing hard to get, which was pretty much the opposite of my behavior) – I dunno, maybe that works for some people, but I don’t want to be playing games my entire life. I don’t want to never feel completely comfortable with my partner. I don’t even see any value in a relationship built on such pretenses.
And if anything, a man who is capable of saying something like that (and that particular man was considerably older than I am) will only raise questions in my mind as to his emotional maturity and level of self-awareness.
JerseyGirl 20
Women should stop asking for dating advice then and stop caring what men want since men don’t care what we want. Women are expected to make more of the concessions. What happens if women stop asking for advice, stop caring about what men want and stop making the effort? I bet men would start making more of an effort.
Evan Marc Katz 21
An interesting point, Jersey, but a poor social experiment. Try “stop caring about what your boyfriend thinks”. Try “stopping your effort” towards him. You won’t have a boyfriend for long – unless, of course, he’s a doormat.
And it sounds to me like you are not even considering the many concessions men have to make to be with you. Honestly, this is why I encourage you to check out my new book, which should be completed in a month or so. Based on your posts, you seem to think you’re the only one getting hurt, the only one disappointed, the only one confused, the only one who has to put up with less than exemplary behavior.
Please consider that men go through just as much as you do. I sure did over 15 years of being single. Which is why I do this for a living and spend most of my time trying to teach women how good, reasonable men think. And it’s like you don’t want to hear it because it’s easier to make men wrong. Sorry. “Men suck” doesn’t fly here. I’m firmly convinced that the inability to empathize with the opposite sex – for both men AND women – is the surest way to guarantee friction and misunderstanding when dating.
Treat men as the “other” – as evidenced by your line, “men don’t care what we want” – and most men will have little desire to work hard to understand you. As such, negative attitudes about men function as a self-fulfilling prophecy. The good guys (Karl, Steve, etc), don’t want to have to prove themselves when they’ve done nothing wrong. And they’re sick of paying for the sins of dozens of other jerky guys who you refused to dump because you were hoping they’d “change”.
girl-with-glasses 22
A lot of women don’t like to have their worldview challenged. Consider how much purchasing power they have, mass media pretty much caters to their point of view. ( yes, I do feel alienated from my gender). They *all* think they ***deserve*** happiness, and the world, i.e. men owes it to them.?They’ve been indulging in the distorting effects of the circus mirror of Oprah, Cosmo, Sex-in-the-City, women’s studies, etc etc.
Advice is not so easy to take if *minor* behavior changes requires a person to reassess their relation to their own life, others, and reality. But I do have sympathy for them, the effect of aging, hormones, and the biological clock can even drive a otherwise sane woman, a bit loony. But I would like to see a bit more realism on the part of women to admit that unless they offer something in return, a man is not likely to willingly and eagerly seek out their company. I know this is a bit of a bummer. Reality sometimes is…
Selena 23
If a woman is ranting “about how men are” maybe she should be asking herself why she refuses to dump him instead of hoping he’ll “change”.
Steve 24
@JerseyGirl? #20
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As a guy who likes to read dating related things my subjective experiences has been a cacophony of women making complaints about and demands of men.
I don’t like some of the attitudes men have about women, but in general it seems that men complain far less about women and it isn’t for there being lack of disappointments.
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Steve 25
@JerseyGirl? #20
Negative generalizations are an easy way to make yourself unhappy.? If you rephrased your complaints to be as specific as possible you might find yourself feeling better.
Telling yourself “I dated 4 men in the last 6 months and out of 10 things I cared about 3 things were routinely ignored”? versus “men don’t care about what women” want is much less of a downer and provides more useful information for someone looking to adjust her game plan for success.
?
Steve 26
What qualities are men really looking for?/em> (fun, attractive, easygoing, nurturing)
IMHO, it really is that simple as far as men go.? In situations that don’t work the man involved simply doesn’t see the woman involved as fitting those 4 qualities.
Why do they profess to like independent women but chose women who rely on them for financial and emotional support? Why do they want a woman who is needy? (men want to feel important and needed; independent women don’t provide that feeling)
One of the best pieces of writing not only about dating and relationships but about ways people may be unknowingly sabotaging themselves is this gem Evan wrote a long time ago
http://tinyurl.com/2lfqyg
Diana 27
Some of the comments are similar to what I was thinking. If all women banded together and stopped tolerating men who are defective in some way, and also cut off the gravy train, maybe those men would start reading advice blogs and considering that maybe change is a good thing after all. And before someone comes along and says, “Well, if all men banded together …,” I’m just playing.
It’s? a given that both sexes are invested in relationships in sometimes very different ways. While I believe there are good men available, I think they are few and far between. I still give every man I meet a positive and open opportunity to show me for himself what he’s made of, rather than attaching negativity to him from the start. They seem to be primarily focused on my visuals.
I am probably looking for more than they are, in terms of the kind of individual I will keep company with. I am more discerning, and I am probably wanting more sustainability.
?
I know that I cannot change a man and that’s okay because it’s not my goal. And I will not change who I am either, just for the sake of knowing I have a man in my life. I will not betray myself. At the end of my days, I am all I truly have. I am hoping to find an equal.
sayanta 28
At #20 (JG) and EMK-
Interesting point (though jaded). I don’t want to open a can of worms here, but one thing that I have noticed in the past is when I suddenly lose interest in a guy who I was crazy about before (coz he’s being an a-hole) he suddenly wants to become the bestest of friends. Of course, I don’t exactly trust my judgment in men (yet), so that’s a disclaimer right there.
Lorianne 29
@EMK? Why aren’t men asking for relationship advice? BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE TO.? They can get what they want without working at relationships.? Women can’t, hence we’re the ones asking for advice, and we’re the ones called on to make the adjustments to make relationships possible.? We’re actually saying the same thing.
?
By the way, I am not saying ALL men are like this. But you said so yourself, the majority of “advice” targeted toward men is of the “how to get laid without commitments” variety.? Why?? Because that’s what men ask for.? I’m actually agreeing with you.
Karl R 30
JerseyGirl said: (#20)
“Women should stop asking for dating advice then and stop caring what men want [...]. What happens if women stop asking for advice, stop caring about what men want and stop making the effort? I bet men would start making more of an effort.”
And if nobody in the class studies, then the curve will shift and we’ll all get better grades!
News flash:
Of all the women I’ve dated, only one had read any dating advice, and she applied the advice incorrectly. (The first date felt like a job interview, but at least she was asking interesting questions.)
By making use of what I’ve learned (from this blog, other dating articles and practical experience), I’ve moved out of the middle of the curve. I now know how to stand out at the top end. It was in my best interest to change, regardless of whether anyone else did.
If every women stops asking / following dating advice, men won’t notice (except perhaps the man you’re dating right at that moment). The impact on the dating pool will be undetectable, but the impact on you will be enormous. Your inability to change where you sit on the bell curve (due to the information provided by Evan and others) will be clearly noticeable to you.
Feel free to test this out.
Lorianne said: (#15)
“If women stopped taking on 75 or 90 or even 100% of the work of maintaining a relationship,”
How are you ending up in one relationship after another where there is this kind of imbalance? I can only think of a few scenarios where this could happen:
1. You’re routinely dating the bottom quartile of the dating pool.
2. You’re with men who aren’t interested in you, but you’re deluding yourself into thinking you’re actually in a relationship.
3. You’re ignoring most (or all) of your partner’s contributions to the relationship, and solely focusing on your own contributions to the relationship.
You get into those situations by ignoring dating advice. Do you expect to get out of those situations by ignoring it more than you were before?
Evan Marc Katz 31
@Lorianne – “They can get what they want without working at relationships.”
No, they can’t… unless you stay in a relationship with them. It takes two to tango, and no one can mistreat you unless you allow yourself to be mistreated.
Sweet Nectar 32
change is inevitable but it is up to the person whether or not they want to change. people generally want to be accepted and respected for who they are. not who you want them to be.
Lorianne 33
@Karl, I appreciate the advice, but I have not wound up in “one relationship after another” where I was neglected, etc.? I don’t put up with nonsense like that,? which means I don’t date very much.? Not m preference, but WAY better than the alternative.? My comments were the product of observation, not experience.? Just sayin’.
JB 34
@Sayanta#9: I know you were just making a casual observation I didn’t mean it to be a dig or anything.I was just saying we (men) are here but it’s not close to 50/50.
I’m also a little confused by the generalization that women work harder at dating & relationships?because they read and take more?dating advice.I know you?ladies aren’t going to believe this but like Karl says ALL women don’t read about?relationships or ask for dating advice unless it’s from their girlfriends or an issue of “Cosmo”?etc…? lot are just as relationship illiterate as the men.
As far as online dating goes men have to put in 100x the effort that women do just to have minor success and we don’t have 300 things on our list of “disqualifiers” like women do.In the online realm very few if any men get?OR ?have a “free pass”?I know what Evan always says that women don’t get or hear. Most women can go?to their online dating site do a search with whatever delusional criteria (a list of 30 “must haves”)they dream up and then complain that “there’s no good men on here”…lol Where as men will search with maybe a couple of deal breakers and come up with 30 women they like and 50 “maybe’s” they’ll email and know they haven’t got an ice cubes chance in hell of getting a response from any of them because they’ve been disqualified. Free pass??? I guess it depends on the perspective and the opinion of each person’s circumstances.Too many variables.
mic 35
Hypergamy – women prefer alpha males, who are less likely to question (and modify) their own behavior because they do fine as is. There are other reasons, but that’s within the area of expertise and probably the main one.
Lorianne 36
@mic — not this woman. Alpha males never appealed to me.
Karl R 37
Lorianne said: (#15)
If women stopped taking on 75 or 90 or even 100% of the work of maintaining a relationship,
Lorianne said: (#33)
“My comments were the product of observation, not experience.”
How do you observe this, if not from your own experiences? Are you getting this from what your friends say about their relationships?
A couple weeks ago some women were quick to talk about how women vent to other women.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/do-you-want-advice-or-do-you-want-validation/#comment-59963
Is that your main source of information? People who are venting don’t give an objective view of the situation (regardless of whether they’re male or female).
Another possible issue arises from how men and women tend to measure effort. (This is a generalization and an oversimplification, but it brings up a useful point.) Women tend to count effort (theirs and their partner’s) by how many different things were done. Men tend to count effort (theirs and their partner’s) by how much time and energy was put into the task.
Example:
(I realize this is a little outdated) Let’s say the husband is the breadwinner and the wife is a homemaker. He spends a full day at work, earning money for both of them. She fixes his breakfast, does his laundry, does his ironing, fixes his dinner and cleans the dishes. In her mind, she did five things for him, and he did one for her, so she put in more effort. In his mind, if her five tasks took six hours, he put in more effort than her.
I’m not going to say that either perspective is right or wrong. But understanding this difference?is extremely useful.
If I can do five or six things for?my girlfriend?which take minimal time and energy, we both feel like we came out ahead.
Sam P. 38
@ Diana
If all women banded together and stopped tolerating men who are defective in some way, and also cut off the gravy train, maybe those men would start reading advice blogs and considering that maybe change is a good thing after all. And before someone comes along and says, Well, if all men banded together I’m just playing.
I’m really sympathetic to women who say that the men they’ve dated don’t treat them with the respect they deserve. As a nice guy, if women valued kindness more guys like me would have better luck. As a brother and friend to women who repeatedly date a**holes, I’d be spared the pain of seeing my female friends and relatives go through crap.
But even if it were possible to get all women to act in concert and “cut off the gravy train,” doing so wouldn’t be necessary. There ARE lots of good, respectful, kind, pro-commitment men out there, even among alpha males. Evan’s advice isn’t to change your standards of what good treatment is , it’s to change your standards for physical characteristics, geography, religion, race, age etc. He points out that initial chemistry isn’t the most important thing if what you are looking for is a long-term partner. He never says that you should put up with skipped phone calls, unkind words, and unrequited affection.
Diana 39
Hi Sam! I visit Evan’s blog because while I have learned more about how men think and their behavior in general, his advice often resonates with my own. For ex., the chemistry you speak of. I was married for many, many years to a great man whose best and most important qualities resonated from the inside ~ a “nice” guy that most would have overlooked. I probably have one of the shortest “lists” a woman can have.
I am discerning, but not in my preferences. I will not tolerate the kind of behavior and circumstances that many women do, and this leaves many men out of my circle.
Glad to know you’re there for your family and friends to lean on. That’s what nice guys do.
Casey 40
“Why do they profess to like independent women but chose women who rely on them for financial and emotional support? Why do they want a woman who is needy? (men want to feel important and needed; independent women don’t provide that feeling)”
I’ve been thinking about this statement a lot. Did it ever occur to men that women may be independent because they’ve had no choice. They’ve had no one to take care of them, even when they were a children. They had to learn to be competent because otherwise things didn’t get done. They had to learn to protect themselves, because there was not one else to protect them.
Or that many independent women really would like to find a man they could depend on, but that it isn’t gonna happen overnight. It takes time, patience and consistency from the man for some women to learn that she can depend on him. Often, it seems like if it takes some work from a man to earn a woman’s trust, he just bails.
I guess it’s because there’s always some needy woman or women around the corner who will make him feel important.
Of course, that needy woman is also probably not likely to be able to earn enough money to keep the bills paid and the household running while he takes the necessary year to recover from brain surgery…or to come up out of the car holding a maglite in such a way (as taught to her by her sensei) that the enormous guy who started a road rage incident with you on the turnpike…takes one look at you jumps back in his car and speeds off before the cops can arrive. But, apparently…those types of things just don’t make a man feel like he’s important.
Diana 41
Casey, I have also given Evan’s comment some thought. I didn’t think men wanted women who were needy. I thought they ran the other way.
Maybe I have a different understanding of the word “needy.”
I am not sure where the balance is. To a man who would meet me today, he would find a healthy, independent woman on many levels. I ask myself, “Do I ‘need’ a man?” No. Do I “want” to find someone to spend time with as an equal who would care about me, maybe even love me, and me for him? Yes.
I am not sure where need would enter the picture or how I would show him that I needed him, if that is what he would be searching for. My position in life is such that I had no other choice but to become stronger and completely independent. There is no fall back plan. I had to rise to the occasion. My children and I would not be in the healthy place we are in life without my ability to be successfully independent.
“Need” implies a necessity. I spent many years thinking I needed my former husband and he needed me. In the end, he proved me wrong.
Bob 42
Re: Casey #40 and “independence”
Once you understand that relationships of any kind cannot stand when both people are “independent”, then you’ll see why a woman who waves her independence like a flag of freedom is not attractive to many men.
Relationships are about *interdependence*.
If either person in the relationship is completely independent of the other, than what purpose does the *other* person serve (regardless of gender)? I’d even go so far as to say that so long as either person is independent of the other, there is *no relationship*.
To plagiarize Stephen Covey…as people mature, they typically start out being dependent on their parents. As teenagers, we rebel against that dependence, striving for independence from everyone/everything. Then, if we’re lucky, we’ll continue to mature from dependence, to independence, to *interdependence*. This interdependence is why trust is paramount, because we are willingly enabling another person to have some sway over us, for the benefit of a stable relationship.
All my relationships are interdependent…with my family and friends, we all rely on each other…that takes trust and interdependence.
When a woman wears the independence chip on her shoulder, I walk the other way, because it tells me she doesn’t understand what it takes to have meaningful, fulfilling relationships.
Casey 43
Bob @ 40 – are you saying you think I wave my independence like a flag? If not, then what are you trying to say?
I asked if it ever occurred to men that some women are independent because they’ve had no choice because they have never had anyone to take care of and/or protect them, even as a child. Did it ever occur to men to invest a little time to earn that trust and interdependence instead of expecting it immediately? Those are the questions I wanted answered.
If you took my examples as waving my independence as a flag in your face then you couldn’t be more wrong. I used those examples, because to me…that is what you do when you care and love someone, and he/she is important to you…you do whatever it takes to make sure that person is cared for and protected. You bring all of your considerable talents and abilities to bear and help. No matter what. Even if it means working 60 hours a week to put food on the table and use that food to make breakfast before you go, come home to make lunch, go back to work and make dinner when you get home…because he/she can’t do it for themselves…no matter how tired you are. Even if it means taking a bullet for that person. Ideas of male/female gender roles are meaningless.
If that doesn’t make a person, male or female, feel needed and important, then I don’t know what would. Or said another way…why that would make the other person feel diminished, unimportant or unneeded, I have no idea. But, I won’t apologize for being strong, competent and independent…and caring for and protecting the people, men and women alike, that I love. And to me, that level of trust, care and protection a person (even me…even my family) has to earn, and should just be handed to someone because…
JerseyGirl 44
Steve Apr 1st 2010 at 03:31 am 24
@JerseyGirl #20
As a guy who likes to read dating related things my subjective experiences has been a cacophony of women making complaints about and demands of men.
?
I don’t like some of the attitudes men have about women, but in general it seems that men complain far less about women and it isn’t for there being lack of disappointments.
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Men tend to interanlize more no?) I don’t think your experience is because men have happier attitudes toward women. B) Maybe?we are both biased to our retrospective genders and tend to pay more attention to what the opposite sex is saying then our own. Because I’ve heard men have their own list of complaints.
All I am saying is women should put the same effort in relationships men do. If we did, you would see how fast the relationship progress would deteriorate. Sure, they put effort in sex. But beyond that, it’s like pulling teeth. ?You have women that are in relationships with men for years and these men still can’t buckle down and marry the girl. Men are less commitment minded today more then ever.
And as Casey said, in today’s world you have to learn to be an independent woman. You have to take care of yourself and protect yourself. You can’t relay on a man for those things anymore.? It doesn’t even seem like lot of men even want that role. Women have made themselves less vulnerable?and I do think that ‘s sad. But the reason it’s happened is because we live in a world that if we left ourselves be vulnerable all the time, we would get abused or taken advantage of.? And no white knight is there to save the day. Maybe men today want to feel like the heros but many of them don’t want to do the hard work that it entitles to really be the hero.
Karl R 45
JerseyGirl said: (#44)
“All I am saying is women should put the same effort in relationships men do.”
That’s what Evan has been saying for years. If the man isn’t putting effort into the relationship, then woman shouldn’t be either.
JerseyGirl said: (#44)
“If we did, you would see how fast the relationship progress would deteriorate.”
You’re dead wrong with that.
If you stop putting effort into the men who aren’t sufficiently interested in a relationship to exert effort themselves, you will no longer be wasting your time and effort on dead-end relationships.
JerseyGirl said: (#44)
“You have women that are in relationships with men for years and these men still can’t buckle down and marry the girl.”
The men can do that … but they don’t want to marry that woman. But these women delude themselves into think he will. Either the man is putting effort into moving that direction, or he’s not.
JerseyGirl 46
My friend was with a man for 10 years and they got married two years ago. Are you saying he didn’t really want to be with her?
sayanta 47
Jersey Girl-
Wow. You seem absolutely intent on construing everyone's comments to suit your worldview. Okay. But I'd ask yourself if this much anger is doing you any good.
On a side note, I think we should define "independence"- like the word feminism, it seems to have gotten an undeserved bad rap and means god-knows-what to different people.
Ruby 48
Sayanta #47
This makes me think of a couple of short-lived relationships I've had over the past couple of years. One guy, who thought he wanted a serious relationship, would kid me about being so independent and not saying "we" enough. He ended up getting scared and overwhelmed and breaking up with me. The other, who was petrified of getting into a really serious relationship, told me I wasn't independent enough. Eventually, I figured out that when this man used the word "independent", what he really meant was "detached". I ended that one.
I wouldn't mind giving up some of my "independence" if I could find a guy truly willing to give up some of HIS. Hasn't happened so far.
JerseyGirl 49
Sayanta,
Don’t we all construe people’s comments based on our personal world view? Sorry, that’s not particular to only me. And what anger? How about talking about the topic instead of making personal critisms about me.
bob 50
@Casey #43
I’m trying to say EXACTLY what I said. Stop twisting what I say into what you want it to be so you can argue against what I have to say.
I’m a very smart, rather articulate man who usually chooses his words very carefully, and I would venture darn few people mis-construed what I said.
I CARE that people, both men and women struggle through relationships, and have difficulty understanding the opposite sex.
I come here to hear what other people see, and to offer what I’ve gleaned from my years of dating. To present what I’ve learned about myself, and others. To hopefully provide to women (and the men who come here) some insight into how some men (those who are like me) think and view the world.
I’m sorry you feel the need to repeatedly tell me my point of view is wrong.
Your questions are argumentative, and you repeatedly mis-represent what others have said.
This is my last missive to you Casey. Intelligent discussion is predicated upon using others’ words with respect, not twisting them in an attempt to prove women’s perspective is more right than mens. I’ll not be drawn into debate with you when it’s clear you don’t respect what the men on this blog contribute.
The battle of the sexes doesn’t fly here.
Liz 51
@JerseyGirl #46 – Well, he couldn’t have been that anxious to lock her down if he waited 10 years to marry her. Jeez.
Joe 52
Terrible advice Evan: The problem with this advice is that you are not seeing why women are asking this question, its because they DON’T want to leave their boyfriends/husbands. Women aren’t conditioned to be lonely or independent (financially or emotionally) and are stuck in these relationships for better and worse. Sadly, their men realize they have their girlfriend/wife trapped and can stay the same selfish humans without changing. Women NEED Men more than Men need women. Single Men can be independent financially and emotionally, but single women cannot do this especially if they have children. Women do not want to be lonely. Women cannot find quality men in normal every day situations – rich, stable, responsible men. Certainly not the Drunk Men at bars or Frat Guys. They want Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Teachers, etc. Lastly, since women are stuck in these situations, they want to learn how to manipulate their boyfriends/husbands to become better men and spouses. Its not a take or leave it game, its a chess match where the best player gets what She wants.
Denise 53
#52
Oh my God, you are so wrong, it’s shocking.
In this day and age, women do NOT need men to be support themselves and DON’T have to put up with men’s crap (because many do does not change this fact). Women have more choices today than at any time in history, to stay or not stay. Women do NOT need men more than men need women–women can have children without a man in their lives, ANY woman can get sex from a man basically any time she wants, she just has to go after it and can support herself and her children if need be. And she can do this with no commitment from a man. Women are much more likely to NOT be lonely as we are driven biologically to connect withi others and to create support networks around us. Mature women do not look for men’s pocketbooks as a measure if they would be a good partner. I find quality men in every day life every day, that’s crap. It’s not about manipulating anyone, each person comes to a relationship of their own free will and can leave at any time too.
As in everything, there are exceptions. There ARE women who are obsessed with a man’s financial resources and status in life. Just like there ARE men who are obsessed with getting sex from women as much as they can or having some eye candy on their arm.
Wow, hope you are married or committed to a mature woman already, because with your world view, I think you are going to be mightedly challenged to find one.
Diana 54
To Joe #52, are these the kinds of women you’ve known? There are women who do not need a man for emotional or financial support, and when they do find themselves in an unhealthy relationship, they have the strength and wisdom to move on.
I have raised my daughter to know that you do not need a man to be happy, or to take care of you, and to never allow herself to be in the position of having to depend on a man or heaven forbid, feel that she is at their mercy. I want her to be happy, and if that includes marriage and/or children with a man who compliments her life, that’s wonderful. Just always be able to stand on her own.
Karl R 55
Joe said: (#52)
“since women are stuck in these situations, they want to learn how to manipulate their boyfriends/husbands to become better men and spouses.”
Since you brought it up, and you’re a man, why don’t you give the women an example of how they could manipulate a man to become a better man and/or husband.
It should be simple. Choose some way in which you are less then ideal (as a husband/potential husband/man) and in which you are not inclined to change. Then give us some examples of what a woman could do to manipulate you, examples that would motivate you to change, even though you really don’t want to change.
This is outside my expertise. I hate being manipulated, so if I notice a woman making a serious attempt to manipulate me, I’ll dump her. And if a woman doesn’t want to leave me, then she doesn’t want to drive me away either.
Since you’re recommending manipulation, I’m forced to assume that you don’t mind being manipulated. Please let the female readers know what type of manipulation works well on you.
Joe 56
Evan is right that Men don’t change, but its because Men are too embarrassed to ask for help. All our lives, Men have been told to be tough, play sports, never cry, never be weak or show emotion. Men do not know how to ask for help when it comes to relationships or emotion. That’s when you change from being a “dating coach” to a “relationship coach” and helping these women work on their relationship to determine if there is any hope at all for a long term future. It may be seen as manipulation or compromise, but a relationship is all about giving and taking and treating your partner right.
For the strong, independent women, who don’t need men, good luck. Its good to see everyone woman out there being strong independent and alone. But that is not the question at hand, which is “How to keep a Man and make him a better spouse” – there are a lot of men who are clueless, socially awkward, and have no idea how to make a woman happy. They just don’t know how to ask or seek help. A lot of Men are also players and cheaters, who are selfish, and need a woman to kick their butts to be a better Husband. A cheater can change if he sees its better to be monogamous, otherwise most men would cheat if there were no repercussions.
The women asking for dating help because they don’t know how to find quality men. Maybe they can’t find Men at their work, they don’t work with single men. Maybe they can’t meet successful men at Church. But a strong-minded woman knows how to get a Man to do what She wants. A strong-minded woman knows how to have an adult conversation with a boyfriend about their relationship, and make changes through either positive or negative reinforcement.
The “Take it or Leave” philosophy is the easy way out. Women WANT to get married and be in relationships. If a Woman wants to be Single and Childless all her life, that is perfectly fine, but that is not the question being asked in a Dating and Lovelife column. These Women Readers want Marriage with a stable Man, and their is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.