Jul03
Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women, Part II
Pages: 1 2
Perhaps my most popular blog post, Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women?, got a comment today that was so well-written, I had to share it with you. I love it when my readers can express my thoughts - because if you ever tune me out when I remind you how to connect with men – perhaps it’ll have greater resonance if you hear it from another woman.
I love it when my readers can express my thoughts – because if you ever tune me out when I remind you how to connect with men – perhaps it’ll have greater resonance if you hear it from another woman.
Enjoy, and have a fantastic July 4th.
Evan,
Boy, does this topic speak to me. A couple years ago I was a careerist hard-line feminist, and a bit of a racist, too: get this – a black woman who would not date black guys, owing to a sexual assault experience back in the Eighties that all black guys should not be blamed for. I have now learned this, after dating some of New York’s most truly wonderful fellows of all races. But I digress. Anyway, I treated relationships like combat and saw men as my enemies. After all, why not, I reasoned? Sure, they might look at my chest and not my face, but then ignore my of course it’s so jaw-droppingly fantastic resume, fail to be impressed by my oh so glamorous so-called career, take a peek at super career me but then move on – or force me to move them on – to softer, rounder girls whom at the time I considered weaklings, Stepford throwbacks, doormats. And then they would marry these girls!
Why was this happening? I even poured up a heaping mugful of liquid hate for a very good author who wrote a book attempting to counsel other career girls like myself so we could keep a man interested, and maybe see one fight to snag us. In that article I said some pretty dumb things.
But now flash forward to me a couple years later, happily dating and positively besieged by handsome, smart, funny, available and interested guys. How did this happen? Did I change overnight? Was it moving to New York City where I will admit men are a little more outspoken when interested than in other cities? Nah; more to the point it was realizing men want different things from a date than women do, and remembering I was a girl, not a boy.
As a date conversation topic, my own career began to bore me. About a year ago, I stopped wearing black suits and pinstripes outside the studio. I started wearing frilly dresses with lace, and wearing more bright colors. I stopped hiding my chest and legs. I took my hair down out of its bun and let it fall on my back and shoulders. But more importantly I think, something within me had shifted. I began enjoying being a girl – a real change for a lifelong tomboy. This resulted in me laughing and smiling more, especially in public; talking a little softer, not using profanity as much, and just softening up inside. I started noticing I LOVED MEN! Long a feminist, I instead began observing how society is often cruel to little boys and to men, and began feeling sympathy and admiration towards them. Men became my best friends.
I was then positively besieged by men!
Continued on next page >>
Related Posts:
- Evan Marc Katz, Dating Coach For Smart, Strong, Successful Women
- Passion Vs. Comfort: Do You Have to Have Fireworks to Have a Successful Relationship?
- Why Does My Boyfriend Look at Other Women?
- How Do You Combat “Why Bother” Syndrome After a Bunch of Frustrating Dates?
- Are Professional Women in Their Mid-30s Too Independent To Settle Down?
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59 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice
Ruby Jul 3rd 2009 at 09:45 am 1
I think the LW simply began to let down the barriers she was putting up around men and began to open up to them. She wasn’t “dumb”, as she puts it, but probably scared and angry. Certainly you can be a feminist and still love men! Perhaps it makes you even more attuned to the challenges men face.
The last guy I dated was intimidated by my accomplishments because he wasn’t happy with himself, or satisfied with his own success level. The current man I’m seeing loves that I’m smart and knowledgeable about certain things, and I make sure to appreciate what he brings to the table. He’s secure within himself, and that is key. We appreciate the things we can learn from each other, rather than seeing our relationship as a competition.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 3rd 2009 at 11:07 am 2
What a beautiful story. Thanks for sharing that with us both Evan and Heather.
I also believe that men can be very attracted to accomplished women. I think being smart, successful, educated, and good looking can make you very enticing. Unfortunately, it is what these qualities can sometimes represent in a women—that is, women who do not need a man in their life. Or even worse as Heather so well explained, a women that hates or despises men.
The truth is as she discovered is that we love to feel like we can make a difference. When we see a women with a smile, we take full credit for that smile and it makes us feel alive, purposeful, and needed in this world. Thanks again for your inspiring comment!
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..A BIG Mistake Many, Especially Honest, Women Unknowingly Make on a Date… …and How to Avoid It. =-.
Steve Jul 3rd 2009 at 01:26 pm 3
I’m happy for Heather.
Being a fan of the original article ( I even have it on my personal blog ) I hope people will read it and not conflate Heather’s personal oints for Evan’s points.
I have enjoyed dates with “tomboys” as Heather put it, I have had interesting conversations with women about their jobs ( the ones that had interesting jobs) and with people I already know I have enjoyed sharing news of their career successes. Women or men. Sharing good news with people you care about is always a nice experience.
Men have been counseled for years not to take the way they think and behave at work into social situations. Great advice. Nobody wants to date the CFO. They want to date a person. They want to be on a date, not at a business seminar. This advice hasn’t reached some career focused women yet. Not understanding what is going on, I think they mistakenly write it off as men not liking strong and smart women.
I have been on dates who have not had much interesting to say or who seem to have their lives as well together as a teenager. Give those smart and strong ones my phone number
.
Paul Jul 3rd 2009 at 02:00 pm 4
Women are always surprised when I ask them if they really and truly like men. A lot of women don’t I’m afraid, and if you are a white man in America these days, you are the most attacked and persecuted race there is. Look at the TV commercials you see…tons of disrespect not only towards men in general, but white men in particular. I think since the rise of the womans movement, the focus has been on women…this is truly the age of the woman, not the man. And in the end here is what we have…men are becoming more like women, and women are becoming more like men. Somewhere Society in general is into man bashing big time, so I was wondering if that had anything to do with mens feelings twords successful women? Because lets face it, for every women out there making, lets say, $50,000 a year, there is a man who is not. A man who is trying to feed his family and do what men are supposed to do, which is to provide, protect, and lead.
Brenda Jul 3rd 2009 at 03:02 pm 5
Excellent comments and posting…………..I’m entering the dating world again at 52, and am loving life. Evan, you have helped me so much, that I too have men crawling out of the woodwork.
I love men, always have, and am raising two little men too – so I very much appreciate men and let them know it. I am happy, light-hearted, and fun, never talk about the “future” and at my age and with my big law career (ha!) in LA, you would think I was a teenager.
I have long hair, multi-colored, and the young guys at the gym call me “hot” – who would have thought that life and dating would be this good at my age!
Evan rocks and kudos to the wonderful woman who embraced her femininity – I must say men love it and I have gotten many comments on the dresses and skirts that I wear!!!!
Evan Marc Katz Jul 3rd 2009 at 03:24 pm 6
Thank you, Brenda. Full disclosure: Brenda’s a private client who got an online dating makeover and private coaching. But I did not pay her to say nice things, I swear.
Curly Girl Jul 3rd 2009 at 06:46 pm 7
So, the corollary to this is that men like “dumb, weak, can’t support-yourself” women?
My take on it: It’s not that men don’t like smart, strong, successful women, they don’t like hostile, antagonistic women. Because of this, gotta point out that the title seems a bit like a backlash–the ole 1950s “be dumb and compliant and dependent” or the boys won’t like you and you’ll be doomed to live a life of poverty and old-maiddom. (I just made up that word.)
Will also point out that hostile and antagonistic also comes in the dumb, weak, can’t-support-yourself variety, too, but for some reason these women don’t get criticized.
I recognize that even suggesting all this puts me in the category of too “smart, strong and successful” for men and “that’s why [I'm] not married.” Wrong on both counts. I have never wanted for male attention or companionship or marriage proposals.
But Heather is right about one thing–if you want a guy you just have to put on that red dress that shows off the body parts. Really, men don’t seem to be very discerning in some ways. Very easily manipulated by looks and the promise of sex. I don’t go in for that type of manipulation myself. But if you’re going to put up a title like that, you gotta take a look at the negative flip side.
Steve Jul 4th 2009 at 03:18 am 8
I went to a completely unrelated conference last summer. One of the workshops was run by a woman who was a corporate executive communications coach. The workshop was about teaching volunteer activists how to be persuasive with strangers out in the field. The activists at this conference REALLY needed her advice.
The coach told us a story of when she was just starting out and attending an outdoor event in Manhattan. She and a friend walked by some man who just started ranting at them about unrelated things. They had not said a word to this person.
The coach told us that this person was “stuck in his history”.
I see this kind of thing on the internet and in the comments section of this blog all of the time. Somebody can write the word “blue” and people come out of the woodwork to angrily talk about “red”, even though the author only wrote “blue”.
I see people unfairly read so much into what is written and completely miss the good points made.
Stuck in their history.
Diana Jul 4th 2009 at 06:08 am 9
Heather sounds like she’s had an internal makeover that’s far more important and meaningful than her external. While perhaps not all that appealing to some men, it wasn’t her super intelligence, her pin-striped suits or her career that kept the men at bay. It was her loathing, condescending tones, her hatred and anger for men that they picked up on. I suspect this trickled over to more than just men, too. I wonder what caused her to change. I am skeptical that it was as simple as realizing that men want different things from women, and remembering she was a girl. How could any truly smart woman not already know what men want from women? It’s splattered everywhere in all forms of media. I think she knew all along and resisted.
Whatever the reason(s) for her transformation, I am so glad she has learned to embrace and soften her edges; not because of the flocks of amazing men who are now following her like a lost puppy dog, but because she let go of so much that was holding her back. Success in life comes in many shapes, the least of which is a career, and that includes being a happy, thriving and contributing human being. No man on earth can do this for a woman. It comes from within.
Cilla Jul 4th 2009 at 08:10 am 10
Are you in a time capsule from the 1950’s?????
I don’t even know where to begin with the discussion about gender roles and equality. But white men as the most persecuted group in America? You’re putting us on, right?
Cilla Jul 4th 2009 at 08:55 am 11
Interesting discussion in light of having just heard Rachel Greenwald interviewed on a repeat airing of the Gayle King radio show. I think she expressed a more articulate take on the topic than perhaps comes across in her written work.
What she was saying, the result of having given “exit interviews” to many men after dates they felt were unsuccessful, was *not* that men don’t like smart, strong, successful women. And while they don’t like antagonistic, bitter man haters, as Heather and others have pointed out, there is a third, more subtle category that women fall into without even realizing it. It’s the group of women who insidiously co-opt masculine energy when they are in the presence of men.
I’m not talking about stereotypical usurping of male territory like making more money or working in fields traditionally dominated by men, like construction or aviation. It’s a much more understated edging into male energy manifested in body language and actions women might not ever assume to be the exclusive purview of men, such as asking for the check first or sending an email the following day. It has the same effect on men as the effect on women when men are too wishy washy or timid, perceived as demonstrating too much feminine energy.
It’s less about painting gender differences with broad brush strokes and more about understanding the subtle distinctions between them–what might be considered in Vedanta the higher intrinsic energies of the masculine and the feminine. Go too far away from that essence in either direction, and you have conflict.
Curly Girl Jul 4th 2009 at 12:48 pm 12
I think that in general it can be said that people don’t like anger and hostility and competition on dates, whether it comes from men OR women. We have never addressed the topic of how smart, strong, successful men can be condescending toward women, especially women who are their equals in the workplace, and perhaps only those who see it for what it is have the backbone to stand up to it. Women who seek to gain status or wealth through their attachment to a man of course are not going to do or say anything to threaten him or call him on it.
But, back to dating: You find just as many men who complain about women who won’t reach for the check as you’ll find men who feel their energy is usurped by women who do. So the trick is to find someone whose energies jibe with yours–there are men who like assertive women and women who like more retiring guys. In certain belief systems, each of us contains masculine and feminine energies. If this weren’t the case–if it were just a slam dunk (men are like this/women like this) then you wouldn’t see all the different combos of couples that you see. It isn’t the case that the man is always dominant and the woman submissive, the man the earner/protector and the woman the dependent/nurturer. Most people are a mix of different strengths/weakneses, and so that’s what they bring to the party. The trick is to find someone/someones with whom you have a better party than you would alone.
From this POV, if a guy doesn’t like a smart woman he can go off with a dummy. Who cares? Dummies need love, too.
We smart, strong, successful ones will be happy to make all the money!!! Ha!!!!
Karl R Jul 4th 2009 at 03:59 pm 13
As Evan mentioned in the previous article, men want a woman who is warm and affectionate. We want someone who is fun to spend time with.
Many of us also want a woman who is strong and smart. (I certainly do.) And it’s certainly possible to get all those qualities in one woman.
A couple weeks ago I met a woman at a bar. She was very attractive, fun, and clearly interested in me.
Yesterday we had our first date, and I confirmed something I’d strongly suspected for the last week. She’s not terribly bright. She’s maybe average intelligence or a little higher, but she doesn’t come close to the women I typically date.
So this evening I’ll be letting her know why I won’t be pursuing a relationship with her (after spending several hours figuring out a polite way to explain it). She may be the best-looking woman that I’ve ever dated, but I value brains over beauty.
However, she is warm and affectionate. And those are the qualities that led me to ask her out in the first place.
Some men may value smart, strong, successful women. Other men may avoid them. But all of us are drawn to warm & affectionate women.
Angela Jul 4th 2009 at 08:51 pm 14
Wow! I do not know where to start with this one and the following comments. All I can say that it is so stereotypical.
I agree with others that stated she seemed to have anger issues toward men. Which really did not necessarily have a correlation with her being smart, strong , and successful. Being angry toward men and being smart/strong/successful are mutually exclusive.
Many sucessful people’s identity is definded by what they do, especially if they come from meager beginnings.
Also, as a sucessful black woman she may have felt special because of her achievements and felt she deserved to be treated a certain way.
Curly Girl Jul 5th 2009 at 11:02 am 15
Hmm. Think I might have hit the “Add comment” precipitously. If so, I apologize. If not, please disregard.
As I was saying:
EVERYONE wants to go out with PEOPLE who are warm, affectionate, fun, nurturing, accepting, responsible and NO ONE wants to go out with ANYONE who is angry, hostile, rejecting, superior, condescending–no matter what the context–friends, family, lover, date, stranger. I mean, this is pretty much a human thing, right?
Casey Jul 5th 2009 at 12:11 pm 16
In her letter, Heather starts off with “owing to a sexual assault experience back in the 80’s,” which explains why she viewed men as the enemy and had a lot of anger toward them. It might also explain why she dressed in a way that made her feel more powerful, rather than feminine.
I’d like to know if she ever received any counseling for the assault? Did she read an article? Have an ephipheny? What changed that helped her start thinking about men differently, and that they were no longer the enemy?
Joe Jul 6th 2009 at 06:31 am 17
Jeez, Karl. Must you give her a reason why you won’t date her again? I’m curious how you plan on breaking the news to her that you think she’s dumb.
Helen Jul 6th 2009 at 08:26 am 18
Karl R, what exactly is wrong with dating a woman whose intelligence is “only” average intelligence or a little higher?
I completely agree with Joe that you should not tell her why you won’t pursue a relationship. Even if she’s of above-average intelligence, any comment you make on that topic will make her feel hurt, dumb, inadequate, and decidedly below-average. Why not just say something generic like “You’re a wonderful, warm, and affectionate woman, but I don’t feel a spark between us”? That makes the rejection of her more about you, and less about her.
Diana Jul 6th 2009 at 09:41 am 19
Karl, your comment about valuing brains over beauty has me wondering. Is this true? Or would you rather have both beauty and brains. I have seen some incredibly intelligent women looked over because they were not considered attractive.
Karl R Jul 6th 2009 at 10:45 am 20
Joe asked:
“Must you give her a reason why you won’t date her again?”
Most people want a reason. I’ve generally found that one reason (regardless of how many reasons there actually are) is enough to satisfy a person.
Joe said:
“I’m curious how you plan on breaking the news to her that you think she’s dumb.”
She’d previously commented that she lived her life completely through her heart. I responded to that remark (at that time) by saying that I lived my life almost entirely through my head.
Referring back to that conversation, I told her that I thought there was lots of chemistry but very little compatibility, which I thought would prevent any relationship from working in the long run.
Helen asked:
“what exactly is wrong with dating a woman whose intelligence is ‘only’ average intelligence or a little higher?”
They’re not terribly interesting to talk to … at least not for any extended period of time.
Just out of curiosity, would you ask a woman who was drop-dead gorgeous why she wouldn’t date a man who was “only” average appearance, even if she wasn’t physically attracted to him?
Helen asked:
“Why not just say something generic like [...] ‘but I don’t feel a spark between us’ “
That would be a lie. I do feel a spark with her.
And I’m not going to insult her intelligence by telling an outright lie to her face and expecting her not to notice.
Let me turn this around. When a guy lies to your face, do you just not notice? If you do notice, does it not bother you? If he says “something generic” as an excuse, don’t you ever suspect that’s not the real reason? And if you realize he’d lied or suspect that he’s giving a meaningless generic excuse, do you ever wonder what was so bad that he couldn’t tell you to your face?
If neither one of us had felt sparks, it would be a wonderful excuse. I’ve had that happen before. But when I’m feeling sparks and she’s feeling fireworks, it’s not at all credible.
I’d rather tell a partial truth and omit the details which are most likely to be hurtful (which is essentially what I did) than tell a completely transparent lie.
Diana asked:
“your comment about valuing brains over beauty has me wondering. Is this true?”
A year and a half ago I was dating a woman who was about a 5 in attractiveness and a 9 in intelligence. We dated for 4 1/2 months. We broke up because she wanted lots of kids while I didn’t want any.
This past weekend I went on a first date with a woman who was about a 9 in attractiveness and a 5 in intelligence. There will be no second date.
I don’t just pay lip service to the idea.
Diana asked:
“Or would you rather have both beauty and brains.”
Of course I’d rather have both. But if I have to sacrifice one for the other, I’m not nearly as picky about appearance.
Isabelle Archer Jul 6th 2009 at 11:01 am 21
Ugggh! I am very happy for this correspondent’s new-found happiness, but as a feminist, I have to point out: feminism does NOT mean hating men. I repeat, feminism does NOT require hating men. The writer seemed to have a personal problem with men before that had nothing to do with feminism.
You can be a complete, raging feminist and LOVE men. And get plenty of dates. And get married and have babies. You can also wear frilly clothes, be beautiful, let your hair down, and flirt with men. And, most importantly, you can be a feminist and like to let men make the first move, romantically, and even secretly (or not so secretly) like the fact that your date holds the door open for you and pays for dinner.
It’s a little harder to say what feminism IS than what it is not, but I can tell you for sure that there is no feminist alive today who would say that you have to hate men and wear ugly suits in order to get your feminist card.
Jennifer Jul 6th 2009 at 11:14 am 22
I agree that Karl does not have to share his reasoning for not wanting to date the woman anymore as it will likely just be hurtful and not helpful, but there is *nothing* wrong with his preference for dating the uberintelligent. Everyone has their thing. I love that he has figured out what his thing is, and when he sees it’s not there he gets out sooner rather than later. He’s not blaming or denigrating this woman- he just knows she’s not for him.
Jennifer Jul 6th 2009 at 11:22 am 23
So Evan I don’t know if we get a vote or not, but I think I preferred your old commenting system because:
1. It was easier to see and read new comments
2. You got a notice telling you your comment was being moderated while now you have none
3. If you wanted to address/add on to/ etc a comment that someone made, you could do so simply by mentioning their name and comment number rather than replying directly. Made it easier to make a largely general comment yet mention someone esles comment in passing if you chose to.
Either way I’ll get used to this one, and it does have a ’slicker’ look that I like, but just wanted to share!
Sean Jul 6th 2009 at 11:35 am 24
No Cilla, he’s not that old fashioned. He’s just trying to be a man as men are naturally designed for. Just refusing to be pressurized by women you are trying to represent. I guess this one is not becoming gay to get rid of the social ‘beating’. But he’s right. Normal, natural men are the most persecuted group in the Western world nowadays. And because of that phenomenon, I wouldn’t be surprised if that part of the world is going to be overrun by more civilized societies shortly.
Joe Jul 6th 2009 at 12:04 pm 25
I gotta say I agree with Jennifer regarding the new setup.
Steve Jul 6th 2009 at 01:18 pm 26
AMEN!!
Jennifer for president!
Curly Girl Jul 6th 2009 at 04:02 pm 27
So you don’t want to her insult her intelligence by telling a lie…you’ll just insult her intelligency by telling the truth?
Hmm. No matter how you look at it, you’ll be insulting her intelligence. A conundrum if ever there were one.
Steve Jul 6th 2009 at 05:09 pm 28
It is interesting to ask why so many people have that mistaken impression.
Curly Girl Jul 6th 2009 at 06:04 pm 29
Whaaaa..???? And which more civilized societies are those again?
Maybe the French will invade us shouting “Vive la difference!” (But with a proper accent mark on the first e.) (I would say an accent aigu, but that seems kind of snooty.)
Curly Girl Jul 6th 2009 at 06:13 pm 30
Because they are wrong, maybe?
Curly Girl Jul 6th 2009 at 06:15 pm 31
Didn’t somebody request this setup? I seem to recall that. And Steve said it wouldn’t be a good idea.
It has its good, it has its bad. Maybe it’s just a matter of getting used to it.
Will the next upgrade include a little icon or picture for each of the posters? I would choose a cartoon of a curly-haired girl.
Mary Jul 6th 2009 at 11:22 pm 32
It sounds like you have a definite type and are looking for a specific girl or someone within close range of such.
Hot Alpha Female Jul 6th 2009 at 11:52 pm 33
I really enjoyed reading this letter. I think Heather really got it right when it came to understanding what it really is to be a woman and going out there and living that.
Her story is very similar and way of surrendering is very similar to the core concepts in the book the surrendered single.
If there is any one problem that women are having today, it would be for the inability to let a man … be just that … a man.
Hot Alpha Female
Hot Alpha Female Jul 6th 2009 at 11:53 pm 34
Hey Jen,
Thanks for sharing. I would say I have to agree!
Chris K Jul 7th 2009 at 05:39 am 35
I also noticed this: “Long a feminist, I instead began observing how society is often cruel to little boys and to men”
The way it’s worded, it sounds like you either need to be a feminist, or have empathy for the challenges men face today. I suspect Heather didn’t exactly mean that.
“You can be a complete, raging feminist and LOVE men.” Agreed. Actually, many of the women I have dated (especially in Asia) are less feminist than me, and if it’s too big a difference and they have very traditional ideas of gender roles and relationships, I find it boring and stifling. Bring on the feminists who love men!
Lance Jul 7th 2009 at 07:09 am 36
That’s a great line Heather has in her second to last para, the one that EMK bolded. Very truthful, and it’s exactly how I feel. For the most part, I think the same thing is true for men, that is, being a successful man and happy/passionate with what you’re doing is super attractive.
.-= Lance´s last blog ..Lance Revealed! =-.
Steve Jul 7th 2009 at 07:49 am 37
I disagree with Paul and Sean. I don’t think straight white men are persecuted nor do I think they are oppressed.
I do think it is more acceptable to complain about and even mock that demographic than other demographics.
Chris K Jul 7th 2009 at 09:04 am 38
I agree with Steve, based on my own experience. The “persecution” that we white males receive is light-hearted ribbing compared to the persecution that women and non-caucasian people have experienced in the centuries that our forbears were the power-holders. (The privilege continues in a way, but it’s much more complex now.)
It also depends how personal the comments are – I’ve known one person who thought it was completely acceptable to insult and show disrespect to me for being male, because she was convinced that males collectively deserve regardless of our personal behavior. That was unacceptable and I got tired of it, and I told her she could contact me again if she wanted to show the same respect she would show to anyone else.
Zann Jul 7th 2009 at 09:36 am 39
Thank you for saying succinctly what I’ve been trying to put together in my head and why I felt offended by parts of Heather’s letter. But I would add this: Being a feminist also does NOT mean being “strong, smart & successful” in the way I think Heather and others here are defining that. I realize those are very subjective terms, but there are plenty of feminists out there who are low-income with very no-glamour jobs who’ve never had a chance at any kind of quality education. Like someone mentioned — they came from meager beginnings. And for whatever reason, they’re still struggling with that. Are they smart? They better be, because usually they’re supporting others (i.e. kids) who are relying on them. Are they strong? Hails yea, they are, as well as resourceful and responsible. Are they successful? Not in the elitist way that Heather implies (i.e., no resume or office with a view, no 401K or robust wardrobe, no Blackberry and iPhone stuffed in her Coach bag), but if you consider success the ability to keep food on the table, keeping your offspring from becoming addicts & perps & instead rendering them more likely to have a better life, then yes ma’am, they are contenders. I just get so tired of hearing well-educated, well-paid, “career” women (many from not-so-humble beginnings) not only define feminism for all women but make dating a universal feminist issue. In other words, if your biggest dilemma of the day is wondering what clothes you should wear on a date — provocative or casual — or whether you should be offended when a guy holds the door for you, consider yourself lucky, thank your lucky stars, and I wish you love. But don’t declare these dating turmoils as core feminist issues.
Steve Jul 7th 2009 at 11:04 am 40
@Chris K
No insult intended, but you don’t agree with me.
I don’t think the criticism and mocking that has become acceptable when directed against straight white males is “light hearted”, by comparison, or otherwise.
Chris K Jul 7th 2009 at 12:17 pm 41
You don’t think it’s light-hearted by comparison with slavery, colonialism and institutionalized sexism? I must have misread you (and am now not sure how you meant your comment) but… I won’t demand a clarification as we’re so far from the original topic by now, and I don’t think we’ll be resolving this question any time soon.
Casey Jul 7th 2009 at 05:52 pm 42
I think you are all missing the point…I don’t think her anger towards men had anything to do with feminism or anything else…I think she said it right up front…“owing to a sexual assault experience back in the 80’s”… and I think that she never addressed it in counseling or anything. That’s why I want to know if she some how came to terms with and deal with what happened and she was able to view men differently…without the anger and viewing them as the enemy.
hunter Jul 7th 2009 at 07:41 pm 43
Casey, I agree with you..
Isabelle Archer Jul 8th 2009 at 08:03 am 44
Great points, Zann! And to flip it around even more, not all successful, hard-driving career women are feminists — some are republicans, even. But wait, some republicans are feminists too…
Isabelle Archer Jul 8th 2009 at 08:22 am 45
Casey, I agree that the assault may be the real root of her anger towards men, but read the letter again. There’s no question that she equates her previous view that “men = enemy” with feminism. But then she also seems to define anti-feminism as “being a woman” . . . whatever that means. She’s clearly got no solid view on what feminism actually is, yet she (on paper) attributes her problems to feminism.
This sloppy use of the idea of feminism really bothers me. Feminism at its heart is about equal rights. It is a big enough tent to include men & women who believe that, as far as relationships go, gender roles are real and important.
I hate the thought that Heather now thinks she is not a feminist because she has decided to become sympathetic to men qua men and because she has embraced a view of “being a woman” in relationships. Because I can guarantee you that Heather would be rightfully PISSED if she discovered, say, that she could not get birth control covered by her insurance, but men can get viagra. Or that she’s being systematically underpaid compared to men in her office. Or that she was fired because she wouldn’t sleep with her boss. Those are all, in my opinion, feminist issues.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 08:53 am 46
He’s secure within himself, and that is key. We appreciate the things we can learn from each other, rather than seeing our relationship as a competition.
I agree. I think if a men is secure with himself, successful, independent, and smart women can become very enticing.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 08:58 am 47
“Men have been counseled for years not to take the way they think and behave at work into social situations. Great advice. Nobody wants to date the CFO. They want to date a person. They want to be on a date, not at a business seminar. This advice hasn’t reached some career focused women yet. Not understanding what is going on, I think they mistakenly write it off as men not liking strong and smart women”
I think that is a very interesting point. I agree, I think women do not yet have many role models of other woman who have been able to develop their masculine side to succeed in the work world without sacrificing their feminine side.
The same way most of us men have not grown up with fathers who were able to be both very masculine, yet able to respect femininity. I personally believe that balance is the key.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:00 am 48
“white man in America these days, you are the most attacked and persecuted race there is”
I understand your grief Paul, and I think the solution for you would be to marry a black women so that your kids could have a better life as that way you can at least make sure that they are not born white.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:04 am 49
Good for you Brenda!! What an inspiring comment!
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:08 am 50
“But Heather is right about one thing–if you want a guy you just have to put on that red dress that shows off the body parts. Really, men don’t seem to be very discerning in some ways. Very easily manipulated by looks and the promise of sex.”
I agree, that is an easy good way to get guys. But, is that really how you view all men?
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:11 am 51
I agree Steve. I think it is very hard for us to often take our own shoes off and to try to put on the shoes of others. It is hard to get unstuck from our own history. I know I am often guilty of this.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:13 am 52
Nicely put Diana. I agree, happiness and success does come from within.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:17 am 53
I completely agree with you Cilla. I think learning to honor and accept where we are then working toward balancing, respecting, and cultivating our male and female energies in a balanced way is the key.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Diana Jul 8th 2009 at 09:43 am 54
Very well said!
Mikko Kemppe Jul 8th 2009 at 09:47 am 55
I surely hope that feminism does not mean or require hating men.
The irony that I see with feminism is that it promotes women to become more like a man and unintentionally give out the message that in order for women to be respected in this world, they have to become, behave, and act more like a man.
Of course, I understand the reality that the work and business world is run by very masculine manly principles. However, I think that is the fault of our current system, and I think we should all thrive toward understanding and promoting more of the feminine values in our work world also.
Although, I think men and women are different. I think it is by learning to honor, respect, and value our differences in a positive way that will make a better world.
Furthermore, I think we should respect feminine values in our work and business world much more. If we acted more environmentally conscious, promoted more cooperation, placed more importance on creativity and relaxation in the work world, in the end, everyone would benefit much more.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Curly Girl Jul 8th 2009 at 04:24 pm 56
Isabelle: Thanks for putting that so clearly!!! I agree with you!!!!
starthrower68 Jul 12th 2009 at 08:38 pm 57
You know, here’s the interesting thing about this: there is no guarantee in this life that we’re going to meet THE one, settle down, and live happily ever after. So ladies, we’d better be able to do the things we need to in order to provide for ourselves, especially if we’re single parents. I take that one step further, however; I don’t want to fall short of my potential or miss what my calling is because I have to worry about being too hard or masculine. Now, am I going to try to outman a man? No. Do I enjoy being feminine and being reminded I’m a woman? Yes. But, for instance, when it came time to decide to buy a house, I bought a house. I didn’t think, “oh gee, maybe I should just rent in case the right comes along”. I also feel successful, not because I’m doing anything that allows me to compete with a man, but because I believe I’m where I’m supposed to be right now while moving forward. I’m satisfied and fulfilled. It’s not an “I don’t need a man” sort of mindset, but I’m content now while on the way to more, if that makes sense?
Helen Jul 14th 2009 at 07:00 am 58
Karl R, you made the following comment: “She’d previously commented that she lived her life completely through her heart. I responded to that remark (at that time) by saying that I lived my life almost entirely through my head.”
If she were the poetic sort, she would have argued with you about your priorities with the following, from e e cummings:
since feeling is first
e.e. cummings
since feeling is first
who pays any attention
to the syntax of things
will never wholly kiss you;
wholly to be a fool
while Spring is in the world
my blood approves,
and kisses are a better fate
than wisdom
lady i swear by all flowers. Don’t cry
—the best gesture of my brain is less than
your eyelids’ flutter which says
we are for each other: then
laugh, leaning back in my arms
for life’s not a paragraph
And death i think is no parenthesis
A-L Jul 14th 2009 at 01:30 pm 59
+1