Why Eat, Pray, Love Can Be Harmful to Your (Emotional) Health
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Take Bill, for example. Bill’s not a bad guy. He just wants his unrealistic male fantasy.
If Bill really expects you to have the same body at 50 as you did at 20, he’s going to be really disappointed.
If Bill really expects you to allow him an “open relationship”, he’s going to be really disappointed.
If Bill really expects you to feed him, while he doesn’t even have to listen to you talk about your day, he’s going to be really disappointed.
For Bill to be happy, we can all agree, he has to adjust to reality.
The message of this blog post isn’t about settling. It’s not about being with a man you can barely tolerate. It’s about the expectation of what a man is capable of delivering.
If you’re coaching Bill, you tell him that he should be thrilled that he has an active, healthy, sexual woman who knows her way around the kitchen at all.
You don’t encourage him to hold out for Angelina Jolie meets Rachael Ray.
Do you?
Yet you still feel entitled to hold out for your fantasy. The hero. The champion.
Listen, as a dating coach, my job is to help you find happiness in your love life.
Because of this role, I have a unique access to your inner world. You might even say that I often understand you better than your own boyfriend.
Which is why it’s very easy for me to observe that your expectations of men are RARELY met.
Sometimes, you’re 100% correct in your assessment.
If he doesn’t call you regularly…
If he doesn’t want to be your boyfriend…
If he doesn’t ever hint at a future…
Dump his ass NOW.
But these aren’t the only expectations that aren’t being met by men. I usually hear something like this:
“I don’t know, Evan. I just don’t feel INSPIRED by him.”
Come again?
“I want to feel that thing in the pit of my stomach. To get nervous when he calls. To admire him and think about him all the time when we’re not together.”
You realize that every time you’ve had that feeling, it’s never worked out, right?
“Yes, but I can’t help how I feel.”
Fair enough.
Just know that, percentage-wise, the number of men who are cute, smart, kind, tall, funny, generous, ambitious, successful, and family-oriented is miniscule.
Now you want to add in “inspirational”?
You know how many men are left?
That’s okay. Neither do I.
The message of this blog post isn’t about settling. It’s not about being with a man you can barely tolerate.
It’s about the expectation of what a man is capable of delivering.
There are millions upon millions of decent looking, thoughtful, bright, solid men who want to marry you, cherish you, build a family, and create a life together.
If only you would love them and accept them.
Believe me, nobody wants you to achieve your dreams more than I do.
But if you’re holding out for a hero, yet no guy ever fits the bill (and also sticks around!), it may be time to act like Bill, who finally gave up on his Angelina Jolie fantasy and is thrilled to have found YOU.
This is how a man finds love. By accepting all that you are, imperfections included.
You need to do the same with him.
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88 Comments »Filed Under Chemistry vs. Compatibility
Steve 1
I want a copy of that book! LOL
Helen 2
Evan, I agree with you about the idiocy of that billboard campaign. It seems to imply that men are NOT champions, and overall is insulting. But don’t worry that women would be misled too much by it. That billboard message doesn’t appeal to women either, because what does it really mean? At the end of the day, we heterosexual women do want men, period. And we can give them the chance to be our champions. It’s not as though it’s one or the other.
my honest answer 3
Hilarious take on all this Evan! I haven’t read the book yet… I was kinda worried it would be all self-righteous and sanctimonious. I’ve decided I’m probably not missing out on anything, so I’ll just keep reading your stuff instead.
Lance 4
Well written. I had a good reading experience when I read the Gilbert book and I touted it for awhile. In retrospect, I don’t like the message it spreads. Not because of the breakup and unrealistic expectations, which are kind of crappy, but the Gilbert of the book doesn’t seem like a person of high character. There’s enough material out there about people of mediocre character and we need less of it, not more.
lfl 5
Amazing post Evan. You hit it right on the head.
Every women i speak to says something to the effect of “he’s just not ___ enough” but they never look at themselves, and what any guy would have to give up to date/marry them. I’m a women and it blows my mind! Guys are always the bad guys and the one’s who are deficient in some area. Last week a gf of mine called a guy an “a##h###” cause he didn’t call her after two dates, meanwhile she’s blown off dozens of men in the last few months without any care whatsoever..
justme 6
I have not seen the movie nor read the book – and I’m a reader! To me, the message was find yourself and someone wonderful will find you. I think you should find yourself – that is a journey everyone should take – but it doesn’t mean someone will find you. I’m tired of the fairy tale and so I purposefully avoid them.
I had the same issue though with The Invention of Lying where the average guy falls for the supermodel and gets her due to his winning personality (although he is lying). I wanted the average guy to end up with the average woman! And find they are truly happy. To me this is the happy ending.
Between these two movies (and countless other media bombardment) no wonder we have so many people who are holding out for hotter/younger/richer/etc.
Goldie 7
@ Steve — you asked, we delivered: http://www.amazon.com/Drink-Play-Anything-Ireland-Thailand/dp/0802170528/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326388479&sr=1-1
A guy I’d dated has read this book, and apparently liked it. Needless to say we weren’t a good match. The book has bad reviews, though. I’m not in a hurry to read either of the two. I suspect the premise might be the same for both.
Lily2 8
It’s a cultural sickness…the constant bombardment directed at men and women alike. The message is simple…”image, looks,sex appeal, toys, trips are whats missing, and you are terribly inadequate just as you are” It’s a lie! I have not been able to get through that book, myself. i found it exhausting and self absorbed. I am on a spiritual path though (which she does champion), and find great relief in it. Thanks again Evan, for always dishing it up straight. You are the real deal
DMC 9
Evan, I agree with just about everything you said. I don’t envy your job of trying to get through to women who have had their feeling catered to most of their lives or who cling on to the princess mentality and I thank you for you efforts in this post in, quite frankly, helping women get their heads out of their asses.
I applaud the women who were honest about this (#5) as well
Ruby 10
I think there’s a difference between wanting a pornstar/supermodel/Rhodes Scholar/Top Chef (and I thought men didn’t care about our accomplishments), and “holding out for a hero”, whatever that means. I see most of my friends – and me – just trying to find a guy who more or less has his act together; doesn’t have a drinking problem or emotional problems, is over his marriage or last relationship, can hold up his end of the conversation, takes decent care of himself, does work he more or less enjoys, has integrity, and is actually interested in a serious relationship with someone in his own age range. Some of us are having trouble finding even that, let alone a “champion”.
david 11
I come across a lot of profiles where the women is looking to “feel butterflies” and “feel his charisma when he walks into a room” and “can’t wait until they see each other again” — sometimes they go on and on how THEY WANT TO FEEL, which, is something I have no control over and reading that doesn’t help me any….I actually get scared off because the expectation is SO great and they seem to have a Prince Charming/Brad Pitt/Clooney fantasy thing going that a normal man won’t measure up….
(I once got scolded by Evan about being afraid to reach out to these women, but I don’t mean a line or two in this “realm” but entire paragraphs / the whole profile is about this fantasy man….
And like Evan has said — what happened to all the other guys you had earth shattering chemistry with?
Steve 12
@ Goldie, post #7
ROFL!!!
Steve 13
@Ruby post #10
Could the problem be ( the point that Evan was making ) that after your “just” you have more than 2 – 3 commas?
Steve 14
I’m still amazed that a book called “He Is Just Not That Into You” was a smash hit and prompted the creation of a movie. It shows just how stupid many people have made themselves, in regard to dating, with their wishful thinking.
Ruby 15
Steve #13
I don’t know about EMK’s personal clients, but my friends and I are not asking for handsome, wealthy, tall, exciting, successful, alpha types who will take care of us. It’s hard to have a relationship with someone who has major issues, though, and we’ve all run into this a lot. I’m not saying there aren’t great guys out there, but the old adage about kissing a lot of frogs holds true.
Jane 16
Ruby @10, you’ve hit the nail on the head! I was going to say exactly what you said but you beat me to it. My grandmother used to refer to my grandfather as her “hero”, not because he possessed enviable good looks, made millions, or was particularly charismatic. What he was, was kind and giving, sweet and funny, and he always took great care of her and their children. He had work that he enjoyed and that paid the bills, but their life was modest. He provided a safe and comfortable life for his family, was loyal and had great integrity, and that is how she defined “hero” What’s wrong with holding out for some version of that? Not everyone’s definition of “hero” and “champion” means perfect adonis fantasy man. This is a subjective call. In my book, a guy who basically has his act together and accepts me for who I am is truly heroic.
Cristy 17
Although I commented on your previous blog about “depression,” and looking back on it, I can see what you mean although I still think depressed people ARE capable to love, only to a certain extent.
I still enjoy reading your blog nonetheless : ). It definitely puts us back to the realistic part and being Asian, we have these unnecessary yet unrealistic ideas of how our partners should be (has to be semi good looking, Asian, taller than us, older than us, stable career etc.).
But if you are living in an area like in the United States you will get to meets different kinds of people. So, I really applaud to your blog, it really speaks out to people who are WILLING to be more open.
I don’t want to be a person like Bill or like my supervisor who lashes out on people just because she’s never been married and not willing to date (she’s in her 60s) but very, very picky and doesn’t even like to eat at restaurants. That’s beside the point… But applaud to your success; and I hope that you continue with giving us real but good advice! (sound, too)!
Missouri Beauty 18
Forget Prince Charming, piss on Clooney and Pitt, I’d happy settle for a nice, decent, honorable man. I had the whole charismatic thing with a psychopath. After one of those monsters that can pass himself off as Prince Charming, a Clooney or Pitt, you know you don’t need those guys! Just a nice, decent, honorable man, an average Joe, would be just fine with me!
Zann 19
@Ruby #10 and Jane #16 – You said it all. I think what Evan is referring to is more like a SuperHero. Fantastical, all-powerful, not real. There are quiet, humble heroes everywhere. Many of them are not buff are not rich, either. Shocking, I know. But the traits you describe are indicators of good character, ethics, happiness with self.
I’m trying to be my own hero now, trying to foster the same traits of character in myself that I want to attract in a man. This doesn’t require self-indulgent memoirs or trips to all corners of the Earth. I skimmed the book & knew it was not for me. Just more Spirituality Lite. All the fluff and none of the Stuff.
Goldie 20
Has anyone here read the actual book? Now that I’ve read comments #10, 16, and 19, I’m curious as to what she meant by saying “you need a champion”. Because I’m naive and assume the best of people, when I first saw this statement, I thought champion means a man who is always on your side, as in a champion for a cause. I see nothing wrong with that! If she means champion like a prize-winning racehorse, then that is of course another story.
starthrower68 21
Evan, would the Alex in your scenario really be that upset about a woman who doesn’t want a baby? I mean, would he even want to marry the porn star/top chef/rhodes scholar? I would think if she were really living up to a fantasy, doesn’t she just pretty much show up at the right times, naked with beer and food and not talk? (Yes, I am being flip)
Androgynous 22
Haha. An example of female porn/fantasy if ever there was one. Nothing different from the fluffy sweet saccharine romance novels young women and teenage girls devour, except that this one is tailored made for the older mature readership.
Seriously men don’t need a book called “Drink, Play, F^%k”. Men don’t read about love, romance or sex when they can be out experiencing it !! If they want their little fantasies, they’ve got their Penthouse, Maxim etc where you look, not read. And where you have to get through pages and pages before you get to the fun parts.
I think women of a certain vintage are mature and old enough to understand not to pattern their lives on a book. But then again, it there are old foolish men out there, there surely must be old foolish women out there too !
Hmmmmm 23
When I saw the tagline for the movie, I was disgusted too but for a different reason. I did read the book. The man that she met in the “Love” part of the book wasn’t anyone she initially wanted to date. He was older then she wanted and not her type. He pursued her but she wasn’t all that interested in him. After awhile, he grew on her. So he wasn’t the stereotypical “knight-in-shining-armor” who was everything she dreamed of. Quite the contrary. In fact, I was surprised when I found out that they ended up still together years later. So in some ways she was an example of what Evan has been pushing over the last couple months. She had ideas of what she wanted in a man but ended up with someone who was very different from those pre-conceived ideas.
By the way, that was my LEAST favorite part of the book. As someone alluded to in an earlier post, one of the main ideas of the book was that she needed to “find herself” before being able to really live a full and happy life – with or without a man.
Jess 24
Evan I totally agree with everything you said. I would like to know if you actually read the book because although everything you said is correct, I think the message of the book was not ment to create false expectation about men to women. I read the book and I’m a very strong woman that would not get easily impressed by these kind of books. The book is not about a woman going around the world looking for love. The message of the book is about self discovery, about a woman that never had the chance to be alone and know what she wants. So the movie is about making yourself happy and then love will come your way
Jess 25
What I mean “Love will come your way” is that love will come when you know yourself and learn how to balance your life. To actually be aware that when you’re balanced you know exactly what to do to get a man: no games, respect, honesty. “eat, pray, love” is about awareness, a woman that recognizes what she did wrong and corrects it, and finds love by accepting a non perfect human being.
Sahaja 26
I haven’t actually seen that tag line, but I did read the book and saw the movie much much later than all the hooplah about it – or maybe, because of it. But besides that, I interpret that tagline much differently.
“You don’t need a man, You need a champion”
Exactly. I don’t need a man, I want one. I don’t need him to need me, but simply want me. I want us to not NEED each other, but want to be there, every day. And maybe there are some days where we don’t want to, but we come back anyway, and rekindle and solve and work to make it so we are back in a good place.
The second line was the one I saw very differently from you. I saw these two sentences together.
“You don’t need a man. You need a champion” I do NEED a champion. But the real champion in the book, is the author herself.
The real champion, I need, is me. I should always believe in myself and support myself, and give myself the best chance at success. I have to allow new experiences and believe that I can be successful, in career, in love. It makes me try new things, and do things that years ago, I thought was impossible for me. Being the best me, and knowing myself and what I need, lets me be a calm, relaxed person – especially in a relationship.
I don’t need a man to be a champion. But it also wouldn’t hurt if he was a champion. But not in the typical noun sense of the world. Not in the Roman warrior/Hero/Perfect Romantic character sense.
But I want him to champion, as a verb. I want him to champion himself and us, as a couple. I want us to champion each other in our endeavors and believe in us and support what we want to do in our own lives and careers, and us as a family. To stand up for us, and put what we need, first.
AllenB 27
@Sahaja 26
Bravo.
Heather 28
EMK,
Thank you for posting this! Talk about timing. I’m reading Lori Gottlieb’s book, “Marry Him: The Case For Settling For Mr. Good Enough” and she talks about the same thing, how alot of women get TOO picky and then end up alone.
I do think we women definitely should take some of the advice of “better single, than sorry” as in better to be alone than with someone who cheats on you, lies to you, or abuses you, etc. I could be the poster girl for that, I left a physically and verbally abusive marriage and I don’t regret walking away from such an asshat. Not for a second. However, I also realize I can’t get SO picky that I end up alone.
And men need to do the same thing. I have met way too many entitled, selfish men who do want it all. I had several guys turn me down because I didn’t want kids, haven’t had kids yet, was divorced, etc. And I’m like really? Huh, because you’re kinda short, kinda bald, and kinda not Brad Pitt so I dunno who you think YOU are, pal!
My boyfriend is not Bradd Pitt or George Clooney. BUT. He calls often. He talks to me every day. He’s supported me through this tough time as my Mom battles cancer, and my emergency surgery to have a hip replaced. He’s taken me on errands, helped me do laundry, held my hand and told me I was beautiful, even with a hospital gown, glasses, and dirty hair. THAT is what I was looking for, and I am hoping he and I will make a lifetime together.
Thanks again for such a great article!
Suzy 29
Wow Evan, I think your message is spot on in terms of men and women and their lack of reality when looking for their ideal mate. However for me the message in the book was that a woman needs to find herself first and know who she is before she can figure out the kind of qualities she wants in a partner. Recently I read an article recently reporting that marriages in the United States have dramatically dropped. I guess that further supports that a lot of men and women are living in a fantasy world when it comes to finding true love.
Betsey 30
I read the book, saw the movie. Not my taste. That said, the promo copy doesn’t really sum up the message of the book/movie, which isn’t about finding a man at all. As others have pointed out, it’s about finding one’s true path (the protagonist is a woman, but the book/movie has lots of men who are both seeking their path or are clearly on it, so the message is for everyone). The promo does the book/movie a disservice, the point of that being to manipulate desperate-for-a-man women into buying the book/movie, I suspect. The promo, translated: “Dump the loser narcissist husband, eat a lot of pasta and pizza, do yoga in a spa-like place and wear a beautiful sari, and like magic, Javier Bardem will show up on your doorstep overlooking a South Sea paradise.”
You can see why a desperate-for-a-man woman would like this message. But that wasn’t what the book/movie was about.
K 31
I read the book when every girl on my morning commute was reading it. Saw the movie as friend forced me to. Not a fan of either. I think if she had gone on that trip and explored who she was w/o falling in love with the rich exotic man at the end I would have been more of a fan. Most times when I go on a self journey (try something new, travel alone) I don’t end up falling in love. However in most of these types of books or movies that seems to happen and I think a lot of women get disappointed when they do something bold or new that love isn’t always just around the corner. Sometimes you grow just to grow and a man isn’t your reward.
Hope 32
Two things:
-EMK, it’s not clear whether you realize that your witty idea for a male response to Eat Pray Love has actually already been written- and the movie rights purchased by Warner Brothers. The author’s name is Andrew Gottlieb, and the book, as you mentioned, is titled “Drink Play F@#k”. It was published in 2009. Gotta give credit where credit’s due!
-It’s also not clear whether you, EMK, have read Eat Pray Love. Like other posters who have read it, I would interpret that billboard headline differently– as in, “you need someone who champions you”.
I also agree with the others that the book, while not the most brilliant piece of literature ever written, was actually a captivating, well-written story by an author whose philosophy actually lives very comfortably alongside your own. As one review of the book states:
Eat, Pray, Love is about what can happen when you claim responsibility for your own contentment and stop trying to live in imitation of society’s ideals.
Actually sounds a lot like the good advice you give on this blog! : )
Heather 33
@ Suzy #29,
Well, I do agree with you, however I must say that I think it is good for a person to know who they are and what they want, before getting married. I wish I had, before I married my ex husband. I had poor self esteem, really didn’t know who I was as a person, and basically defined myself by my relationships. HUGE mistake. Ginormous. And that is how I ended up with a very abusive, scary addict husband. I didn’t have good boundaries, good sense of self and what I would and would not tolerate.
If you were to introduce me to my now-ex today, because of all the learning and growing I did on my own after leaving the marriage, I’d look at the guy and go are you NUTS? Of course I’m not dating this twit, get him the hell away from me.
Now I’m not saying we need to do a lifetime search for who we are, but I think it’s a good idea to be OK with ourselves, because if we aren’t, guys can pick up on that and that will send them running, any sense of neediness or no self esteem. Or, you might get the ones like my ex husband, manipulative, abusive control freaks who will wreak havoc on your psyche.
I’m very grateful now for the five years I’ve been divorced, I finally decided that I needed to figure out who “Heather (last name not needed)” was and is, on her own, without some guy to lean on. And I’m finding that I’m OK. I like myself. I don’t have to “NEED” a guy, as in get needy and clingy and psycho, but I do “WANT” a guy. And thankfully that search ended late last fall when I met my boyfriend.
Evan Marc Katz 34
@Hope – Let’s just put it this way: if there were a book written by a man who had a perfectly sound marriage but felt restless and needed to leave his wife to find his own happiness, it would not be touted as a bestselling spiritual guide; it would be labeled as a disgusting tome written by a man who couldn’t find contentment with a good woman. Shame on him!
Do you disagree that if you put a man’s name on the cover that it would have been received differently by women?
Ileana 35
Am I having a deja-vu, or is this a re-post of an older topic here on the blog? I have a feeling I’ve read this from you before…
Anyway, i couldn’t agree with you more about the unrealistic expectations of some women nowadays…
Leesa 36
i agree with you evan what you wrote (34). in the movie, at the divorce table, liz’s husband says something to the effect of “you didn’t communicate to me to give me a chance to address/accomodate your wants and desires, you just quit”. i agree that she was very emotionally selfish, ungrateful and probably acting like the victim … “poor me, i’m in this unsatisfying relationship”. i don’t think she had the ability to truely love somebody and was only thinking about herself, as so many people do. i don’t think she knew herself. had she communicated her issues to her husband and if he still didn’t want to address and work on them with her, then she would have had a more acceptable excuse to bolt. which brings me to another movie i watched recently called “serious moonlight” with meg ryan. in it, she is a lawyer and her husband is having an affair and plans to leave meg for this hot, young, blonde chick. meg gets pis$ed off and straps him down until he decides to give her another chance. and then a burglar comes along while meg is out and asks the husband what he did to pis$ her off so much. the burglar tells the husband that he let meg down. he vowed to cherish and look after and support her and now he’s taken the bolt with a young chick. and that’s the point … these people have little strength of character or ability to truely look at their part in their failing relationships and how they can improve their relationship. it’s always easier to point the finger at the other person and walk because they’re not getting all their wants met when they want it. but i see that these people cannot be there for themselves emotionally so how can they really be there for somebody else unless their life is mostly easy and they’re getting their wants met by their partner most of the time without asking for it. few people are mind readers and i think that’s where communication and committment is important if the partner is genuinely a good, loyal, kind person who is not abusive, excessively selfish etc.
Katarina Phang 37
I don’t like the book and couldn’t past page 30. Saw the movie on the plane and it was so cliched.
It’s so overrated.
helene 38
K#31
“Most times when I go on a self journey (try something new, travel alone) I don’t end up falling in love. However in most of these types of books or movies that seems to happen and I think a lot of women get disappointed when they do something bold or new that love isn’t always just around the corner. Sometimes you grow just to grow and a man isn’t your reward.”
This is so true, and the hollywood message is very pernicious – whilst its true that if you’re in a mess you’re unlikely to attract a healthy relationship, going on a spiritual journey/changing your life/finding yourself is no guarantee of finding a relationship. Becoming your own person is so worthwhile in itself, yet this constant bombardment of the idea that it will lead to love can actually detract from the sense of wellbeing and achievement we should feel as we grow, as we are constantly left feeling cheated or that we didn’t “do it right” if love is not the “reward”. And I don’t think this is just a message that comes from books and movies – friends and family can be guilty of encouraging you to believe that if you just do “this” or just do “that” then love will follow. “Go out more!” “Have a makeover!” “Love will appear when you least expect it” “join a tennis club!” ”try harder!/stop trying so hard!” “Stop acting so independent!” “Stop acting so needy!”
No, this film definately didn’t work for me… and nor has “doing yoga in a spa-like environment” . Actually, I think I’m going to have a go at “Drink, Play, F##K” – it sounds more fun!
Hope 39
@EMK #34,
I think the root of most people’s problem with this book is they are expecting instruction from it. I read it as a memoir- as one person’s sincere story, not meant to be a guide or an example to anyone else- and as a memoir I found it to be a good read.
I think that if a man wrote this book, it would have been marketed differently– and it still would have been well received as a work of writing, but it would have been viewed for what it was meant to be by the author- a contemporary memoir- and obviously not as a chick-lit bible or an Oprah favorite or whatever. There have been plenty of highly-acclaimed, badly behaved male authors, anyway. In many cases, it has only added to their mystique : )
I think that just because one feels trapped in a secure relationship, and chooses to leave, doesn’t necessarily mean one’s expectations are unrealistic. I certainly can’t imagine you coaching your divorced clients to that effect! If it’s the wrong spouse, and the wrong life, it doesn’t matter that it’s a good spouse and a good life you’re leaving. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. If you’re miserable, you’re miserable. Staying with someone despite your deep discontent doesn’t do him or her any favors. Discovering you need something different from what you thought you needed doesn’t mean you’re looking for something (a life, a spouse) superior to that which you’re leaving. Just different.
Anyway, all I was trying to say is: love the book or hate it, its message is actually not too different at all from the good, much-appreciated and healthy-debate-inspiring advice given on this blog : )
Trenia 40
It seems like very few people actually read the book Eat, Pray, Love and I think the phrase was taken out of context.Gilbert was simply describing someone who is really in her corner and on board with the way she really wanted to live her life. In terms of a movie for men, pretty much the entire Hollywood industry is built on men’s fantasies of their version of the perfect woman. This is one book. One. If you know anything about the book or her real life, she actually ended up marrying a man who was not perfect but perfect for her. He was much older than her, had grown children, not a US citizen and not as conventionally good looking as her first husband.
I really enjoyed the book and her story. But like I said, it was one story, one perspective in a sea of movies, magazines and other media saturated with what men, straight and gay, think a woman ought to be.
Hope 41
…PS, and I agree with Helene #38 and K #31 that if there is one thing I’d expect a dating coach to be opposed to in this book, it’s the subtext (whether intended by Ms. Gilbert or not) that you can stop looking for love altogether- you can even shun love- but if you do enough work on yourself, “love will find you.” It happened that way for the author, sp she has every right to include that in her memoir, BUT again this creates a problem when people look to this book as some sort of template for self-actualization.
Heather 42
@ Hope #41,
That’s a good point and I never realized how true that was, until you verbalized it. Hollywood seems to make it sound like just as soon as you start finding yourself, Mr. Right will just show up. That sure as hell is NOT how it works. I used to feed into that nonsense and was getting so frustrated. “I’ve done my homework, paid my dues, I’m finding myself, so where is MY Mr. Right???”
Just one more reason why I can’t stand most romantic comedies or chick flicks in the first place. Just a bunch of silly stuff fed to us that is unreal and even unhealthy for us to expect.
NB 43
Everyone, don’t forget that Eat, Pray, Love was an actual account of Liz’s experience (more or less), and not a fictional story. The movie made much more of the ‘love’ part and made the man she ends up with at the end more of a hollywood cliche than he was in the book (thank the marketers for that, they’re trying to sell a movie).
Evan Marc Katz 44
All the people defending Eat, Pray, Love are missing the point of the post: you don’t need some transcendent ubermensch who inspires you and gives you butterflies every second of every day for the rest of your life. You need a good guy who treats you well. Read today’s blog post to learn what love, marriage and commitment are REALLY about.
jbv 45
@hope #39, I can’t say I agree with you on your last point. If you marry someone I think you should try harder to find a solution to the issue before breaking up. If you are dating someone and decide it is not worth the effort than so be it. But, I would like to think that if I ever marry someone that she will fight for the relationship/try to solve issues instead of just deciding she needs a different lifestyle. Now I haven’t read the book or seen the movie but I am basing my comments on what others have said above. If there was no communication to the husband at the time she got up and left and no attempt to work things our while continuing to be married….. I feel bad for the husband.
E.L. 46
I did have a boyfriend that was inspirational. He was my hero in a way. Despite the harsh childhood he had, he made something of himself. He was brilliant, funny, athletic, resilient, and has one heck of a personality. He has swag and can mingle with street people from rough neighborhoods, but also quote scientific papers on clinical trials of some disease. But he was also very vulnerable, and constantly stressed out of his mind about professional school and his family.
But guess what, at the end, he never loved me and wouldn’t try to empathize with me. So there ya go. I’m now looking for someone who would be my partner. I don’t need a hero to be my boyfriend because I’m no damned damsel. I’m a successful modern woman. However, we still do need heroes, but they belong in biographies and TV, or podiums, not necessarily next to us.
K 47
@JBV 45, I read the book and I really felt bad for the husband too. She didn’t fight for her marriage at all or even really let him know what was wrong (I guess her point was she didn’t know exactly at that time). I read it a long time ago, but I did remember thinking I’m pretty sure I’m supposed to be inspired by her and not feel bad for her husband, but I did anyhow. I wish he would write his account.
Katarina Phang 48
K, he did and almost got published late 2010 but the publisher wanted him to perhaps do things he was uncomfortable with (seems that he has integrity). He wanted it to be a book about his work, not a tit-for-tat to his ex’s bestseller. So he decided not to go through with it. He could have made millions.
And I’d rather read his account on what happened than what she wrote.
Betsey 49
EMK@44: But what those of us who have read the book/seen the flick are saying is that the book/film does not say you need a transcendant ubermensch that is going to give you butterflies at every moment. It doesn’t talk about what you need in a man at all. That’s what the marketing sort of implies, but marketing is always shallow in this way.
K 50
@48 thanks was wondering about that!
MH 51
I actually thought this guy’s book was a joke/pun book; didn’t know it’s a memoir. Now i want to read it.
Pineapple 52
I read this book … I took away the impression that the author wasn’t making other people miserable by using them to prop up her own sense of self. She was a flawed PERSON moreso than she was escaping a husband who wasn’t “whatever” enough. She made the mistake of marrying him, not the mistake of divorcing him. She was a shitty wife and she realized it. I don’t feel like that book had anything to do with chasing butterflies or this or that. She had to face her own selfishness and chronic sense of emptiness on her own, not fill it through a man.
Dating Blog 53
I have read the book and it continues to be the foundation of my advice.
Keep it up, evan!
Ellen 54
My Dad was my hero, and but for him I probably wouldn’t like men very much these days. Thanks to Chuck I am drawn to alpha men, though they are often so full of sh*t it’s not funny.
My ex, an alpha said once “I like to win”. In everything apparently, including relationships. He was perhaps the most controlling man I’ve ever met.
Feeling FUNKY today, sorry! ( though REALLY in a good mood. Have already moved onto two great guys, one new, and both of whom want to be my boyfriend. That’s how I roll/win!
AnnieC 55
@44 You don’t get the point of the book. And you won’t, while you continually convince yourself you are correct.
EBA 56
Perhaps because I read the book, I’m reading into the tag line of the billboard, but by Champion I think they meant it in the definition of “advocate, support”
From reading the book, I felt Elizabeth set out to find a way to be the champion (best version of her self, and advocate) of her own life and on her way found people to champion her journey. Along the way she unexpectedly —and reluctantly at first— ended up falling in love with a man.
lfl 57
As i stated earlier i think the whole point of evan’s article is that we hold men acccountable and to the high standards that we might not bring to the table.
I’m single and friends with 2 girls. One of my friends is gorgeous, a 9 by most guy standards, sweet and lots of fun to be around, always smiling(men love that).
She has fair requirements, a decent job, in good shape and above 5-11(she’s 5-7). Needless to say, she has NO problems finding men to date, she’s in a serious relationship with a tall (6-3)40 year old guy(she’s 32), who is buff, but bald and not uber attractive. My other friend is a teacher, short, chubby, average looking ,nice but sheltered and kind of dull, and always single. Her requirements, height, high income, full head of hair and within a couple of years of her age(she’s 32 and won’t date over 35). She’s always been single. And she always complains to me me about men…what can i tell her? She told me to dump a guy i’m dating because he’s not ambitious enough, he has a good enough job, pays his way and mine for many dates and helps his family out, she thinks i could do better….
She doesn’t know about my other friend but in her world(pampered gal with high expectations) the guy needs to be major provider and still be tall, attractive, with a full head of hair. Her friends are also the same so they don’t help. Some have actually snagged guys like that on jdate so it fuels her fire…
Basically some gals need to be realistic and no one in real life is going to tell you that, so please read Evan’s blog and Lauri Gottlieb’s book for help!
Jennifer 58
Just because most women are not supermodel/top chef/rhodes scholars does not stop many of us (dare I say “most”) from trying. What has been more than frustrating for me in the dating world -especially the online dating world – is that many men are simply fine with their complete lack of interest in continuous self-improvement, while expecting women to be/look 10 years younger with fabulous bodies and have high baby-making potential. Women over 38 feel overwhelming pressure to compete with the 20-something set or else have to “settle” for the dudes who can’t get a response from the younguns and are now “settling” for women more their age. Let me tell you, I have much more luck finding quality, responsive men in bars than online where my attractive picture and frisky profile sit right next to my age.
So, while I hear the message of not having unrealistic expectations that men can’t possibly live up to, it shouldn’t give men an “out” to stop working on themselves to become more desirable to women. Women are faced with men’s unrealistic expectations all the time, yet we still universally attempt to meet the Angelina Jolie-meets-Rachel Ray standard the best we individually can. Men shouldn’t get a pass.
Paragon 59
@ Jennifer
“Just because most women are not supermodel/top chef/rhodes scholars does not stop many of us (dare I say “most”) from trying. What has been more than frustrating for me in the dating world -especially the online dating world – is that many men are simply fine with their complete lack of interest in continuous self-improvement, while expecting women to be/look 10 years younger with fabulous bodies and have high baby-making potential.”
And which men harbor such unrealistic expectations?
The men *you* don’t want, or just the men *you* can’t get?
“Women over 38 feel overwhelming pressure to compete with the 20-something set or else have to “settle” for the dudes who can’t get a response from the younguns and are now “settling” for women more their age.”
In other words, they are feeling an overwhelming pressure towards discontentment given realistic options that clash with a nurtured sense of entitlement.
“Let me tell you, I have much more luck finding quality, responsive men in bars”
Quality men huh?
And how’s that been working out for you?
But I hear the same observation from men, discouraged with their online dating experience.
“So, while I hear the message of not having unrealistic expectations that men can’t possibly live up to, it shouldn’t give men an “out” to stop working on themselves to become more desirable to women. ”
It doesn’t, but how do you distinguish between this assumption and the soundness of your own expectations?
How are men justifying this assumption from your perspective?
“Women are faced with men’s unrealistic expectations all the time, yet we still universally attempt to meet the Angelina Jolie-meets-Rachel Ray standard the best we individually can.”
I don’t believe that for a second – it is well established that men are more forgiving in their assessments of female attractiveness(than the other way around).
And this has the predictable effect of relaxing pressures on female attractiveness – this is evident in any gym or health club I attend – where the differences in expended/invested effort between males and females is palpable(ie. men are working much harder to attract women than the reverse – which is a non-controversial assumption given any non trivial understanding of mating system dynamics).
“Men shouldn’t get a pass.”
They don’t – your sentiments are evidence of that.
Karl R 60
Jennifer said: (#58)
“Just because most women are not supermodel/top chef/rhodes scholars does not stop many of us (dare I say “most”) from trying. What has been more than frustrating for me in the dating world -especially the online dating world – is that many men are simply fine with their complete lack of interest in continuous self-improvement,”
I’ve frequently heard women on this blog claim that women keep themselves in better shape than men.
The data, however, indicates the opposite. If you look at BMI statistics for women and men, the men (on average) have better BMI’s than women at every age over 20. (I didn’t look at the data for teenagers.)
For example:
32% of men aged 40-49 have an average BMI
28% of women aged 40-49 have an average BMI
This data doesn’t tell me whether women are trying harder than men to improve their physiques. It does tell me that men are succeeding more than the women.
Helen 61
Karl R 60: I don’t understand these statistics. What is meant by “average BMI”? If it really were a statistical average for each sex, plus-minus some factor of a s.d., then it would work out to be the same percentage for men and women.
Do you mean “normal BMI”? And if so, is the range the same for men and women: e.g., 18.5-24.9?
Ruby 62
Karl #60
Do your statistics take into account that there is a slight gap in body mass between men and women, or that women carry more body fat than men?
Karl R 63
Helen, (#61)
It’s the BMI 18.5-24.9 range for both men and women. Call it whatever you like. I’ve seen both labels used for it in different sources, though “Normal BMI” is probably the more accurate one.
Ruby asked: (#62)
“Do your statistics take into account that there is a slight gap in body mass between men and women, or that women carry more body fat than men?”
BMI is a weight/height^2 ratio. It does not address body fat. It is not directly related to appearance.
If you take these into account, a woman will (typically) look fatter than a man who has the same BMI.
The difference in body fat:
As you mentioned, women on average have more body fat than men. Body fat has lower density than muscle and bone. If you have two people of equal height and weight, the person with more body fat will be bigger around.
The difference in height:
Let’s take two people who are equally proportioned, but different in height. For our example, we’ll assume two women, one who is 5’0″, the other who is 6’0″. The taller woman is 20% taller, and 20% larger around (but has the same body fat percentage and body fat distribution).
Even though the two women are proportionately the same (height/girth), the taller woman will weigh 73% more, and have a BMI that’s 20% greater.
To put some real numbers on it:
Woman #1: 5’0″, 112.5 lbs, BMI 22.0
Woman #2: 6’0″, 194.4 lbs, BMI 26.4
If you took pictures of the two women against a blank wall (no visual references), they would look equally proportioned. If you blew up Woman #1′s photo so the two looked the same height, people would assume they were the same weight.
Given that men are (on average) taller/heavier than women, that women (on average) have more body fat, and that men (on average) have more muscle mass, the women should (on average) have lower BMIs than the men if they look equally trim.
That’s the best I can explain it while keeping it reasonably simple.
Ruby 64
Karl R #63
I’ve just read that new studies have recently found that waist-to-height ratio is more accurate than BMI. One researcher noted that, “While body mass index, which is calculated from your weight and height, has long been considered the most reliable indicator of body fat, it doesn’t consider muscle mass, so could incorrectly indicate obesity,” and another article stated that, “for years, experts have criticized BMI, saying it does not provide a clear measurement of one’s fatness and good health. For example, BMI does not distinguish between muscle and fat so muscular people may be mis-categorized as overweight or obese. Furthermore, people with normal BMIs may still carry a lot of fat around their waists, upping their risk for metabolic conditions.” However, I’m not sure if any of this indicates whether men or women are more fit.
Karl R 65
Ruby said: (#64)
“I’ve just read that new studies have recently found that waist-to-height ratio is more accurate than BMI.”
“However, I’m not sure if any of this indicates whether men or women are more fit.”
I’m aware of the BMI’s shortcomings. I started criticizing it as soon as it was explained to me (decades ago).
Since Jennifer (#58) mentioned “expecting women to be/look 10 years younger with fabulous bodies”, I assumed she was speaking more about the visual aesthetic of fitness, not the underlying vital statistics. I doubt she’d be interested in my friend who has a great pulse, a great respiratory rate, great blood pressure, and a large pot belly.
And I strongly suspect that she’s basing her opinion on what she sees when looking around her. I wanted to use a well-documented pool of data that wasn’t anecdotal. In addition, BMI at least accommodates that men and women are supposed to have different builds.
I’ve repeatedly heard versions of this complaint:
“Women take better care of themselves than men do.”
Jennifer’s complaint was just a variation on this theme.
When it comes to physique, that complaint appears to be inaccurate.
If the women are talking about hair/nails/makeup … do they really want to date a metrosexual?
If these women are complaining about clothes, why do they dress in comfortable, shapeless outfits when they’re home alone with their man, but dress up in order to spend an evening out with their girlfriends?
Jennifer’s statement (#58) appears to be inaccurate, and a source of frustration for her. Perhaps it would benefit her to align her perceptions with reality, and to stop creating dissatisfaction for herself.
David T 66
Karl, there is a more fundamental flaw in your logic than how to interpret “average” or the specifics of muscle/fat/bone percentages. Without data on the entire distribution, the numbers you give do not give a complete story.
The stats you cited could mean 68% of males have above normal BMI and 72% of women are below normal BMI. In that hyperbole case, clearly it is the women who are more successful in spite of having a lower percentage than men in the “normal” range. Can you provide the rest of the distribution?
Paragon 67
@ Ruby
” However, I’m not sure if any of this indicates whether men or women are more fit.”
I was thinking along the lines of which sex is investing more effort in attracting the other.
And while I won’t pretend that my conclusions follow closely from any *particular* scientific finding, I have already spoken something to the justification of my assumptions(ie. consider that sexual competition is a term that implies competition between males for access to females, rather than being a sexually nonspecific concept).
On the other hand, I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why we should conclude that there exists a greater burden on the female sex, in attracting mates.
Karl R 68
David T said:
“The stats you cited could mean 68% of males have above normal BMI and 72% of women are below normal BMI.”
That’s not the case. If it were, I wouldn’t have used it as an example. I’m not in the business of distorting facts.
David T said:
“Can you provide the rest of the distribution?”
It’s in a chart. This website is not conveniently set up so I can copy and paste a chart into here. I do not feel like spending one to two hours trying to recreate the data in a readable fashion.
On the chart, ages are broken down into 10 year ranges (20-29, 30-39, … , 70+). The following statements (summarizing the chart) are true for each age range.
For BMI…
less than 18.5 women outnumber men
less than 25.0 men outnumber women
18.5 to 24.9 men outnumber women
greater than 24.9 women outnumber men
greater than 29.9 women outnumber men
greater than 34.9 women outnumber men
greater than 39.9 women outnumber men
In general, the women’s BMIs were the same or worse than the men 10 years older than them (especially worse in terms of obesity and morbid obesity).
My source was http://www.halls.md/body-mass-index/av.htm
However, the data is not conveniently arranged for this sort of comparison. I initially played with it for 2-3 hours to extract this data into a chart. That source cited the CDC as being their source, but I wasn’t able to find a good chart on the CDC’s website either.
Is that sufficient for you?
Helen 69
Karl R: why does it matter? Didn’t you get the memo in the other thread “What is love”? In it, #54 talks all about “fat girls (who also have those loudmouthed, annoying, grating personalities) who are engaged to decent men who aren’t fat.” If decent men like curves, we deliver curves.
More seriously, though: Regardless of what CDC posits, I don’t know that it makes medical sense to insist that men and women follow the same BMI ranges to determine health risks associated with weight. Not only that, but what men and women consider “fabulous bodies” may differ from a BMI standpoint. It makes sense for men to be attracted to curvier women. Women need breasts, hips, and tush to create, carry, and nurture babies. Even if not all couples intend to procreate, the evolutionary urge to mate with women who would provide nurturing advantages is still there.
Paragon 70
@ Helen
“Karl R: why does it matter? Didn’t you get the memo in the other thread “What is love”? In it, #54 talks all about “fat girls (who also have those loudmouthed, annoying, grating personalities) who are engaged to decent men who aren’t fat.” If decent men like curves, we deliver curves.”
I think this warrants further qualification, given that males are under evolutionary pressure to make qualitative concessions and trade-offs – they are compelled to breed more frequently, even to the point of considering inferior women as an option.
Thus, such compromises are a particular male adaptation in pursuit of an optimally high mating rate.
Ruby 71
Karl R wrote: “If these women are complaining about clothes, why do they dress in comfortable, shapeless outfits when they’re home alone with their man, but dress up in order to spend an evening out with their girlfriends?”
You mentioned this previously, and I responded that women don’t do this. They dress up when they are out in public, whether they are with men or women, and a woman will dress up to invite her new boyfriend over for a romantic dinner, etc.
Paragon #67 wrote: “…I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why we should conclude that there exists a greater burden on the female sex, in attracting mates.”
The diet and cosmetics industries are big business mainly for women. Women have plastic surgeries much more often than do men, and women in the public eye are still are judged much more harshly on their appearance than are men. Even models have gotten skinnier over the past 25 years. In one study I read about, women were judged more competent, attractive, and likable when they wore makeup.
Women are much more critical of their own appearance than men are. Up to 8 out of 10 women will be dissatisfied with their reflection, and more than half may see a distorted image. Men tend to be satisfied with their appearance, or indifferent to it. I think the burden on women is there, but many men – and women – simply take it for granted.
Karl R 72
Ruby said: (#71)
“Women are much more critical of their own appearance than men are. “
This sounds to me like it’s the cause of everything else you describe.
If you look in the mirror and are unhappy with what you see, it will cause you to do every other action that you described. If you’re being criticized by other women, even more so.
Explain to me why we should call this an effort toward “mate attraction” rather than an effort toward bolstering self-esteem.
Furthermore, every example you give revolves around outward appearance. Since men’s ability to attract mates is heavily based on their ability to earn/provide, shouldn’t you be counting the 45-70 hours I spend at work per week as “self-improvement” geared toward “mate attraction”?
My efforts have gotten me promotions, bonuses, raises … I’m earning at least triple what I was a decade ago. The effect on my dating opportunities was blatantly obvious … even though I’ve barely altered my lifestyle.
Paragon 73
@ Ruby
“The diet and cosmetics industries are big business mainly for women. Women have plastic surgeries much more often than do men”
Go to any gym, or hazardous profession, and you will observe the degree of sexual dimorphim manifest in sexual competition(ie. where males are working far more vigorously – and hazardously – to embellish their status, for the implied purpose of attracting females).
Males have the burden of earning more(as Karl R noted), being lean(not just *slim* – as negative energy balance need not imply *work* at all), etc.
Consider the time/energy expenditure that these kinds of displays entail, and you will see that your examples are trivial by comparison.
“and women in the public eye are still are judged much more harshly on their appearance than are men.”
By other women.
“Even models have gotten skinnier over the past 25 years.”
Has the typical woman gotten skinnier?
“Men tend to be satisfied with their appearance, or indifferent to it.”
Or perhaps they feel less empowered by special pleading.
Ruby 74
Women do not use cosmetics, go on extreme diets, get plastic surgery, etc., to appeal to other women. And the cosmetics industry is big business run primarily by men, as are the ad agencies that advertise the products.
It’s not about just being “slim” (difficult to attain through diet alone, and without exercise), it’s also about attaining an idealized standard of youth and beauty. The typical woman may not have gotten thinner, but the ideal that she is supposed to emulate is thinner, and even more unrealistic, than ever before.
While there is pressure on men to earn a good living, these days most women have to (and want to) work also, even if they are married, and women are also exposed to numerous workplace hazards. Many also have the added burden of shouldering most of the domestic responsibilities in addition to their full-time jobs.
Sure, it would benefit women to bolster their own self-esteem (and resist the cultural/corporate messages), but a culture where hyper-skinny, botoxed, liposuctioned, breast-implanted, forever-young women are idealized, doesn’t encourage that.
Saint Stephen 75
Ruby Said:
The typical woman may not have gotten thinner, but the ideal that she is supposed to emulate is thinner, and even more unrealistic, than ever before.
So does the typical woman woefully fail in securing a man/relationship since she couldn’t succeed in her frantic efforts to look like the “America’s next top model”?
Karl R 76
Ruby said: (#74)
“The typical woman may not have gotten thinner, but the ideal that she is supposed to emulate is thinner, and even more unrealistic, than ever before.”
I’ve never dated an ideal before. I’ve never even gotten an ideal’s phone number. I haven’t met any men who married ideals.
Why would you compete against an ideal?
The entire point of Evan’s post was to say that holding out for an ideal is an inffective strategy. I’d add that competing against an ideal is also a waste of energy.
Ruby said: (#74)
“While there is pressure on men to earn a good living, these days most women have to (and want to) work also,”
Read this thread:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/do-you-need-a-man-to-make-more-money-than-you-if-so-why/
A majority of the women who posted to the thread wanted/expected the men to outearn them. In other words, the high-earning woman is adding to the pressure, because she expects the men to compete with her too.
Ruby said: (#74)
“And the cosmetics industry is big business run primarily by men,”
http://www.avoncompany.com/aboutavon/boardofdirectors/index.html
Just for a moment, let’s assume that the pictures are fakes. What point were you trying to make with that statement?
Let me try a different approach.
Complaining that men aren’t putting in as much effort into dating as women is a rant.
Complaining that men are in worse physical shape than women is a rant.
Complaining that women have to compete against an ideal is a rant.
Complaining that the cosmetics industry is a male conspiracy against women is a rant.
If you keep trying long enough, you’ll eventually find a rant that is actually true … and it will still be a rant.
I didn’t get a fiancée by ranting. I find it unlikely that any woman will get a man by ranting either.
Frustration occurs when reality fails to meet our expectations.
If you expect your body to look like an unrealistic standard, you will be frustrated.
If you expect men’s bodies to look like an unrealistic standard, you will be frustrated.
If you expect men to put a comparable effort into dating as you, and then you overlook most of the efforts the men are making, you will be frustrated.
If you expect cosmetics companies to do something besides sell cosmetics, you will be frustrated.
When I started the dating process, I wasn’t expecting to get a woman who met an unrealistic standard. Therefore, I wasn’t frustrated when I couldn’t find a woman who met an unrealistic standard. And I didn’t settle when I ended up with a woman who doesn’t meet an unrealistic standard.
That’s why Evan and I are so big on facts. We believe that if you understand and accept reality, you’ll have a more successful and less frustrating dating experience.
Ruby 77
Karl R #76
I was responding to Paragon’s earlier assertion that he had “yet to hear a compelling argument for why we should conclude that there exists a greater burden on the female sex, in attracting mates,” and to your statement that women subscribe to the beauty culture because of pressure from other women.
Avon’s history is as a company that empowered women to earn money by selling its products door-to-door, and to colleagues and friends. It’s a good company, but I don’t think it’s the norm in the beauty industry.
You wrote, “…the high-earning woman is adding to the pressure, because she expects the men to compete with her too, ” but
most women aren’t that high-earning, and most women are concerned about having a partner who can contribute a good income if the woman has to take time off to take care of their children. Women’s careers still do suffer for that.
Obviously, as St Stephen asked, women are dating, and still getting into relationships, but many women ARE frustrated – not to mention depressed – trying to live up to an unreasonable standard. Okay, rant over.
Helen 78
Karl R, you are not necessarily representative of all men. In fact, you’ve shown yourself throughout this blog to be quite unusual.
If your anecdotes are worthy of sharing, then so are mine: I have had some idiot male colleagues who have told me I need to lose weight, even though my BMI (speaking of BMIs) has never strayed anywhere near even the higher end of the normal range except when I was pregnant. One even had the nerve to comment on the size of my bottom. None of these comments were solicited; they came out of nowhere and were profoundly unwelcome.
By contrast, I have never had a female friend, colleague, or acquaintance criticize my looks. They’re the ones who are always saying I’m beautiful and “too skinny.”
If I were the type of person who felt the need to adjust myself to people’s wishes, I’d feel far more pressure from the MEN than the WOMEN to shrink down to a possibly unhealthy weight.
Ruby has stated her points quite calmly. I would hardly qualify her statements as rants.
Paragon 79
@ Ruby
“I was responding to Paragon’s earlier assertion that he had “yet to hear a compelling argument for why we should conclude that there exists a greater burden on the female sex, in attracting mates”
Yes, and I am still waiting – evidence has been offered in this blog, countless times already, that shows females are more critical of men, than the reverse.
@ Helen.
“If I were the type of person who felt the need to adjust myself to people’s wishes, I’d feel far more pressure from the MEN than the WOMEN to shrink down to a possibly unhealthy weight.”
I submit that you are posing a counterfactual(ie. you, in actuality *don’t* feel pressure) *precisely* because the male expectations are being overestimated.
Ruby 80
Paragon wrote:
““I was responding to Paragon’s earlier assertion that he had “yet to hear a compelling argument for why we should conclude that there exists a greater burden on the female sex, in attracting mates”
Yes, and I am still waiting – evidence has been offered in this blog, countless times already, that shows females are more critical of men, than the reverse.”
These sound like two different issues:
1. Whether there a greater burden on females to attract males
2. Whether females being more critical of males, or vice versa
Karl R 81
Helen said: (#78)
“By contrast, I have never had a female friend, colleague, or acquaintance criticize my looks.”
I think you’re observing a difference between how men and women communicate.
Men criticize you to your face. Women gossip about you behind your back. (This is a general rule; there are occasional exceptions.) In general, if you hear a man use an unflattering description of someone behind their back, he’s simply using it to identify the person.
Example:
“I was talking to Brian about snorkeling …”
“Who is Brian?”
“One of the new guys. The huge one.”
“Oh, him.”
If the person knew Brian by name, there would be no reason for me to mention that he’s huge. And under these circumstances, men choose the most distinctive traits to describe someone, not the most negative.
Just from second-hand accounts, I know more women have spoken about me behind my back than men have to my face. I can safely assume that I’m hearing no more than 10% of the comments that occur behind my back. (This is also supported by the number of times that women criticize the appearance of other men/women in my presence.)
Even if I never heard about the gossip about me, I could infer its existence just by observing the gossip about other people.
But that distinction does raise an interesting point. Which provides more pressure, a direct criticism to your face, or the criticism that occurs behind your back?
Based on my understanding of psychology, I believe most people find the latter to cause more stress. (If any psychologists wish to support or refute this, be my guest.)
This is what I’ve observed. While I may be atypical, I find it hard to believe that all of the men and women around me are atypical as well.
Ruby said: (#77)
“most women aren’t that high-earning, and most women are concerned about having a partner who can contribute a good income if the woman has to take time off to take care of their children.”
I was regularly encountering this on Match.com with women who were earning $50K – $100K. And since I was only looking for women who didn’t want kids, I really don’t think that was their motive.
Ruby 82
Karl R wrote:
“I was regularly encountering this on Match.com with women who were earning $50K – $100K. And since I was only looking for women who didn’t want kids, I really don’t think that was their motive.” and “I wasn’t frustrated when I couldn’t find a woman who met an unrealistic standard.”
I’m glad you weren’t frustrated by that, otherwise it could be seen as a rant.
Helen 83
Karl R: oof, that’s perpetuating a gender stereotype. Men are plenty catty behind others’ backs; my husband and I have seen this aplenty in our workplaces and among our friends. Likewise, I have no reason to believe that women who call me skinny to my face are saying I’m fat behind my back when I’m simply not.
“Which provides more pressure, a direct criticism to your face, or the criticism that occurs behind your back?”
The direct criticism should, and it could well be positive pressure. Those who love you and care about you will criticize you directly for the purpose of personal growth. Sure, people can also offer meanspirited criticism to your face, but I’m certain you have the wherewithal to judge between constructive and destructive criticism. The criticism that occurs behind your back – whoever did it, if they didn’t do it to your face, they couldn’t have had any helpful intention. So don’t let them pressure you.
Paragon 84
@ Ruby
“These sound like two different issues:
1. Whether there a greater burden on females to attract males
2. Whether females being more critical of males, or vice versa”
Yes, but I also believe they are related, given that the same evidence also indicates that females are more selective than males, which obviously, places the burden on males(a trivial example would be the well established contact/reply rate disparity between the sexes in OLD studies).
The onus is on males, which is why they invest more effort, and incur more liability as a result of that effort.
Ruby 85
Paragon #84
The onus is on males to contact women and to ask them out, but there is a greater burden on women to look attractive to men, in order to get them to make contact. Women are taught not to chase men. Most dating advice tells women not to contact men first, and to be receptive to men, rather than to initiate. As a result, men are more used to rejection, and having to move on to the next woman if the first one isn’t interested.
Paragon 86
@ Ruby
“The onus is on males to contact women and to ask them out, but there is a greater burden on women to look attractive to men, in order to get them to make contact. ”
Again, where is your evidence that there is a greater burden on females to be attractive?
The only evidence I know of, demonstrates that females are *more* critical of male attractiveness, than the other way around.
If you have found something to dispute this, please share it.
“Women are taught not to chase men.”
Then it is not a well taught lesson, as it is indeed trivial to observe that women do indeed initiate with the most choice males.
Ruby 87
Paragon #86
“Again, where is your evidence that there is a greater burden on females to be attractive?”
Re-read all my previous posts.
‘Then it is not a well taught lesson, as it is indeed trivial to observe that women do indeed initiate with the most choice males.”
Many women on online dating sites make it a rule to never initiate contact with men, even the so-called “choice” ones. Even the ones that do initiate contact, do so far less frequently than men do, and would prefer to avoid making the first contact.
But maybe we are talking about different sorts of effort. What I keep seeing, from reading this blog, is that men feel that they have to make more of an effort, and that women are too picky, but that women think that they are the ones who make more effort and that men are the picky ones.
Paragon 88
@ Ruby
“Many women on online dating sites make it a rule to never initiate contact with men, even the so-called “choice” ones. Even the ones that do initiate contact, do so far less frequently than men do, and would prefer to avoid making the first contact.”
The reason why most women don’t initiate, is because they don’t feel compelled to – they (justifiably)*expect* that males
will contact women they are interested in(which is what happens for the most part, except with that subset of mediocre females for whom males *also* have little expectation of reciprocity), which I would argue is a symptom/adaptation to the high rejection rates males tend to receive(since we can observe a similar pattern where the most unattractive women *also* tend to initiate).
“But maybe we are talking about different sorts of effort.”
I am talking about a *disparity* in effort.
“What I keep seeing, from reading this blog, is that men feel that they have to make more of an effort, and that women are too picky, but that women think that they are the ones who make more effort and that men are the picky ones.”
That is because, women like you are neglecting to consider those *independent* factors which mediate the success of male courtship(ie. beyond the effort of making their interest known).
Whether these factors should be classified as ‘attraction’(which I did), is not relevant to the observation that they entail *effort*(which you seem to be ignoring – simply assuming that the only burden on males is in ‘initiating’).