Why Men Shouldn’t Ask For or Offer Their Phone Number Too Quickly
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Hi Evan,
I’ve enjoyed both your books and your blog, and have two questions regarding the email process of online dating:
1) If a man writes in his first email that he wants to meet and/or talk on the phone, is there a way to suggest a few emails first? Moving to phone right off seems to be the kiss of death.
2) In emails with men, at times they forget to ask any questions, so responding to their emails is a challenge. Is it best to just let those go – or is there a polite way to say “If you would like to keep communicating, a few questions from your side would help”?
Thanks
Joanna
Dear Joanna,
Let’s take this opportunity to talk to men, shall we?
Dear Men,
You’re bright. You make a decent living. You’ve been around the block once or twice. You’ve certainly been socialized well enough through school and work to know how people act.
So why would you think that a smart approach to charming women online is:
“Hey, great smile. Loved your profile. Think we have a lot in common. Call me at 323-555-1212.”
Could you imagine doing this in any other arena? Going up to a strange woman at a party and giving her your phone number before you got her name? Asking her for personal information before you’ve exchanged pleasantries? This is the equivalent of sex without foreplay, fellas, and women HATE it.
And rightfully so.
Any woman who has an ounce of self-esteem should value herself enough to turn all of you tactless, impatient, schmucks down. And you KNOW this. Which is why it kills me even worse that you don’t learn.
Seriously. Picture some woman coming up to you and asking you how much you made for a living. Or perhaps quickly trying to gauge your penis size. Her defense? “I don’t want to waste my time.” Which is pretty much your defense for offering to go to the phone before she’s comfortable.
And if simple courtesy isn’t enough reason to heed my advice, how about this: your way is ineffective. In fact, 80% of the men who put their phone number in a first email do NOT get emails back. You know why?
In fact, 80% of the men who put their phone number in a first email do NOT get emails back. You know why?
Because women want to be courted, needed, valued, and charmed. And just because you’re artlessly writing to dozens of people doesn’t mean that any of them want to feel like a piece of meat. Yet how else can one of your prospects feel? You’re not getting to know her, you’re not showcasing your wit, you’re not laying the groundwork for a great first date. You’re simply trying to secure her phone number with the minimal amount of time and investment.
Newsflash: women WANT you to invest time in them. That’s what shows them you’re serious.
I can’t believe I have to explain this to you!
Class dismissed.
Evan
So, Joanna, how do you deal with men who are clueless and pushy?…
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24 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating
Steve 1
Since this is an online dating situation my guess would be that the cryptic emails JoAnna is complaining about are the result of some men thinking that they don’t need to write about themselves in an introductory email since they already wrote about themselves in their personal add, which JoAnna has a link to.
Logical, but it still comes across as disrespectful and cold.
JoAnna, as a social slob trying very hard to reform himself my opinion is that if a guy sends you an email without the basic social pleasantries you can pretty much expect more experiences of social illiteracy in your future with him.
There are plenty of nice guys out there who will bother to talk to you like a person.
I would simply not respond to the emails that you are complaining about.
Marc 2
In defense of the male gender, many women offer nothing in their profiles that would allow a guy to say something interesting beyond, “what’s your number?”… A generic profile will result in generic spam-like emails. If Joanna has an interesting profile that doesn’t include lines like “I work hard and play harder,” and she’s still getting the “what’s your number? emails, she should delete them, and wait for the email from the guy with something interesting and clever to say….Or take the initiative, and contact a guy with a well written and interesting profile.
downtowngal 3
I agree, when a guy sends his phone number without any thought it tells me he’s not really trying and I’m just another gal in the ‘numbers game’. And I don’t know of any self-respecting woman who would call him sight unseen.
That said, the opposite is annoying, when you’ve been emailing for a while and the guy doesn’t seem interested in speaking on the phone. To me that’s a red flag that he’s not really serious, probably married or involved with someone.
Markus 4
Although I’m generally pretty good at the e-mail thing, from time to time even I will forget to throw a question in a return mail. Throw a guy a bone. If it keeps happening move on.
Trent 5
I’m a guy who has had a lot of success in online dating. Every time I send a girl an email, I make sure each paragraph has at least one question mark in it (ok, I’m exaggerating, but you get the point).
Sometimes I get emails from girls that just have *nothing* in them to reply to. No funny sentences. No questions. I can only make up witty things by myself for so long. So girls are equally clueless sometimes. Also, ladies, put something UNIQUE in your profile that a smart guy can hook on to. EVERY girl likes beaches, shoes, and hanging out with their “awesome girl friends”. Be a little different.
cp 6
oh no guys…I have written a whole lot of personal ads (its almost entertaing) and I make a point of telling lots of info, and making it as interesting as possible (its my way of weeding out the guys looking for a date tonight, stupids, etc — though it doesn’t really work, and that is my point). I have been able to whittle my responses down to manageable numbers by being creative and interesting and professing that I am not looking for sex partners OR to talk on the phone tonight. However, I still get at least 10 e mails from guys that say “hey I am fit, heres my number maybe we can talk to tonight” or maybe its just hey I am a single male, interested? here’s my #” or “hey I am a married and my wife is out, I can fulfill your needs, here is my #”
It is almost entertaining, as much lenght as I go to, even to weed them out from the get go. Men, this is a serious problem in online dating. If you really are good at writing, and you know these basic principles outlined by Evan above….you are already about 200 light years ahead of your competition. No, truly, you cannot even remotley make me believe women are even nearly as close to as bad as men here….maybe some are self centered and dont know how to ask questions….but really. I’m shocked every time my barrage of emails start to come in.
Lance 7
Joanna: If he’s emailing you a number right away and not playing the game, ie flirting and asking questions, it’s not serious and you can ignore the email. There are a fair number of weirdos doing the online thing and you have to be wary of them. It’s one of the drawbacks of online dating.
When I play the online game, I ALWAYS wait until a natural and obvious point in the dialogue to exchange contact info, and lately I’ll flirt until SHE asks to exchange info. Then I know it’s on. This is usually after several exchanges or maybe an hour or two over IM. I’ll usually test also, like say, “how do I know you’re not a psycho?” after she asks for my phone. If she comes back with a witty answer then I know she’s fun and interesting. If she comes back with a cold answer or totally misses, then I know the connection isn’t right.
Online game is all about wordplay and flirting, so it’s important to not discount the importance of this.
cp 8
game? online game? oh no…..that is not the answer either my friend. And I have never ever asked a man for his phone number.
Li-Ann 9
Lance’s post was good up to a point. I appreciate that he takes the time to make some effort into his email exchange. However, for a woman, it takes some courage to be the first to ask a man for the phone number. If he came back with the comment “how do I know you are not a psycho?”, I might feel hurt. If you are with a person, and can see their eyes, that can come across as a joke, but cold on paper or not, it can sound like the man is trying to say that you are too pushy or desperate for asking for his number.
I know this is not the subject of the question, but I’d like to see a future thread about how to deal with men who simply want to email back and forth forever. Either they’re lonely, bored, unavailable, and they use online dating sites as a way to enjoy conversations with women, but never have to commit to actually meet them.
Usually this type of email starts with the man wanting you to “open up about yourself” and tell him something personal. Of course, you, on the other side, have absolutely no idea who he truly is, having never met him. If you don’t open up, he then complains that he needs you to open up before he can decide to meet you. This is mirrored on the TV Bachelor shows where the Bachelor generally complains of the 30 girls vying for the rose that they don’t “open up enough”.
Evan Marc Katz 10
Actually, Li-Ann, the primary reason men email you back and forth without meeting you is because they’re busy dating other women. They’re just keeping you in the bullpen until their rosters get depleted.
verbosity 11
I’m going to throw a few things into the mix….whether I truly believe them or not, you be the judge.
There is a fine line between flirting online and typing yet another email. After how many is it time to actually talk? You know, how people used to communicate in ancient times (1990).
There is also a fine line between asking questions and interrogation. When a reply email to me had 12 (yes 12!) questions listed, I checked out.
Opening up or not opening up….hooey. No one’s asking another to divulge their innermost secrets 9.9 times outta 10, they just want to know more than “I like to travel. I like puppies & kittens. I like a man/woman with ambition..” Blah, blah…
Also, ladies also need to be aware that most men know you have another 15 emails in your box tonight, so forgive them if they want to also jump ahead of the line and actually talk. It’s the dating version of being in auto phone hell (press 1, if you have a question about widgets, press 2 if you have a question about midgets, press 3 if you have a …), unable to actually talk to a person.
This whole exchange begs the question, “If you met a nice guy in a coffee shop and talked for some time (15-30 min), would you make him email you 5 times before agreeing to see him for coffee as a ‘date?’” I sure hope not.
Li-Ann 12
Evan, thanks for the answer. I appreciate it. But, it’s not me. I think I explained on another post that I don’t use online dating. I’m over 40 which means I will unfortunately not meet the criteria for most men. I am seeing someone now – it works better to meet in person for me, as I don’t look as old as the number says. Actually, I shouldn’t criticize online dating as I haven’t personally used it, but my thoughts on the situation lead me to think it would be pretty difficult for someone my age. Maybe others have had better experiences. I get my ideas from chats with girlfriends as it can be a hot topic to discuss.
It is my friend at work with the problem. She’s pretty frustrated. I agree that many men probably do “keep you in the bullpen”, but I think there is a small percentage, definitely not most, but some, who entertain themselves with a back and forth conversation. They could be married and hoping for a bit of an emotional romance. They think that it isn’t really cheating if you never meet.
Recently she had a guy asking her to tell him more intimate details about herself. He persisted, and she tried to give polite responses. Finally he began sending emails with insults, profanities, accusing her of being stuck up. She blocked him. Now she’s got others she’s been chatting to for upwards of 3 months. I will tell her your theory about the bullpen Evan. Thanks again.
hunter 13
to trent,
..as a general rule, most women are “chatter boxes”,…the ones that aren’t, mostly, have been recently hurt, abused, going through a divorce,..etc…
Lance 14
Don’t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I’d like to respond to CP. Women prompt the exchange for contact info all the time, and it’s as simple as her saying, “Hey, we’re having a great conversation, let’s get coffee…” That’s your cue to exchange digits and set something up. I’ve even had women ask me to TAKE their number. In fact, this is the point that I try to reach purposely, because I know we’ve made a great connection then.
The key is having built up a great connection via email and IM and the two people getting to a point of comfort and trust. Once you reach that point, exchanging contact info is a completely natural progression.
The situation described in Joanna’s query to Evan is that there was ZERO comfort and trust, ie, no previous connection, and the guy was just throwing it out there. Don’t trust those guys. If you poke around the ‘net you’ll find plenty of online dating horror stories.
vlh 15
Email number 5 or 6 is the best time to offer your phone number to a woman: that should be enough time spent exchanging *meaningful* emails (ideally proffering information about yourselves, I hope, not just monosyllabic “hi” and single sentence messages like “whazzup?”). Each email should: contain a few CHATTY paragraphs, disclose some information about yourself, and ask the woman some question(s) about herself to show you’re interested in finding out more about her. Still, don’t wait much longer after email number 5 to offer your phone number. I dump the instant messenger/email junkie types quickly; I suspect most are married men or are in relationships already. Giving out your phone number on email 5 shows both a willingness to invest time sharing information about yourself to make her comfortable, and it is also soon enough that she won’t start to suspect you’re just another computer-addicted married guy with no life…
Michael Ejercito 16
In defense of the male gender, many women offer nothing in their profiles that would allow a guy to say something interesting beyond, what’s your number?
I have observed such profiles on Match.Com and Date.Com.
Some of those profiles are still there after five years. I wonder why.
A-L 17
Recently I’ve had the problem where we’ve had some back and forth e-mails, but the guy isn’t asking any questions. It started off when I e-mailed a guy, and he e-mailed back a paragraph or two answering my question but didn’t ask me anything back. I assumed he wasn’t interested so sent back a short e-mail. He e-mailed back, again without a question. In all, we’ve had 3-4 of these exchanges where he keeps on sending back decent-length replies, but with no questions. I would assume that if he’s not asking questions, he’s not interested, but why does he keep replying, and quickly? And his responses aren’t 1-2 liners either. And today I e-mailed a guy, he responded back within 20 minutes, and no question in his reply! Should I give these guys the heave-ho, or subtly give them the hint that they should start asking questions?
hunter 18
To A-L
Man may be clueless, doesn’t know he is supposed to ask questions…
Max Garcia 19
“women WANT you to invest time in them. That’s what shows them you’re serious”, wow good advice for me.
Michael Ejercito 20
The only time a man should consider asking for a phone number upon first meeting is if he meets a woman somewhere and he is unlikely to meet her again unless the meeting is arranged.
joe trebler 21
I usually give my number to women when I dont want them to call me b/c most women dont usually make the first move, and if they do call I’ll just say I’m busy or something. Most girls can take a hint.
Hope 22
I am constantly surprised how much great information I get from Evan’s blog. I had this happen today (within a message that was, obviously, a copy and paste job). And, while a very nice message, the fact he was asking (copied) questions of things I have responses to within my profile (which he obviously had not read) and included his phone number for me to call made me absolutely cringe. He noted within his profile (which I read completely) that he dislikes messaging back and forth and prefers to speak by phone immediately to gauge chemistry. The old me would have ignored him or sent him a short, terse note. This time, I took Evan’s advice and sent him a polite response that challenged him to “hang in there, and you may hear my voice on the phone”.
I’m a burgeoning writer, so I placed in my response that, as a writer, it’s important for me to strike up a relationship with a man who is comfortable and able to use the written word (romantic notes, letter, emails, etc) to help reach new levels within our relationship, as it won’t be something I’d expect only during the initial stages of our courtship. I stressed how important the written word is to me and how important it is for me to find a man who respects and appreciates this and, also, has a joy for written communication as well.
I also pointed out that a girl letting every man who passes on his number in the first message is similar to a girl sleeping with every man that asks on the first date; there are specific and appropriate steps individuals should take in their courtship. To do them too soon, with people you haven’t properly deemed trustworthy or worthy of your precious time and attention, would be taking those steps much too soon.
I haven’t heard a response yet, but we’ll see how he takes that. I don’t doubt it will be via silence. He’ll just go on and send another long winded message (full of questions he could easily answer if he actually read her profile) with his number included to some other woman on the site… and that’s perfectly alright.
Hope 23
Also, in response to A-L,
I don’t interact with too many men online, but when I do get that that phase, and there are no questions asked on their end, I have a strict rule to NOT send a response. You have to show a willingness to want to know about me, not just a willingness to tell me about yourself. I can only imagine a dinner date where he’s spending an hour talking about himself and not asking one question about who I am, what I like or what I’m looking for.
If someone wants to know about you, they ask. If they do not want to know about you, they don’t ask. That’s my take anyway.
Blueberrie 24
ok wow! I just sort of went through this with a guy! met him online on a Wednesday, by Thursday night he offered his number for texting and I sent one just to confirm I had the right number and BOOM he went into overkill high pressure salesman wanting to go out that night! I explained I had plans and usually like to talk on the phone before going out, he would NOT give up, wanted me to change my plans or meet him later in the night and he even came to my neighbourhood to hang out as he knew I’d be there but I didn’t tell him where (thank God!). I stopped responding to his texts and he sent 4 more throughout the night! good lord! and then the next day as well first thing in the AM a good morning and then right back at it trying to set up a date… didn’t even listen to my point about wanting to talk on the phone first. anyway, I never went and never would. I kind of felt sorry for him, wasn’t sure if he “got it” that he was just WAY too high pressure. he contacted me on the sunday and I just wrote back that I would want to talk on the phone before meeting… he never responded… idiot, just wanted some action for the weekend i’d say…
Actually it happens a lot and wow guys say things like NO ONE is THAT busy or they just ignore your requests to speak on the phone, they just try to hook up, such a waste of time I want to scream at them sometimes lol
Anyway, Evan is bang on correct in all of this. Just move on if he’s not “getting it” and not behaving appropriately.