Oct29

Will I Ever Be Able to Fall in Love Again If I Have Just About Given Up on Dating?

07:47 am on Oct 29th 2009 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

52 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Online Dating Tips & Advice

52 Responses to “Will I Ever Be Able to Fall in Love Again If I Have Just About Given Up on Dating?”

1. Karl R Oct 29th 2009 at 09:58 am 1

   Heather said: (original post)
   “I do get some level of interest from men, but I tend to not be interested back. The last few men I did become attracted to rejected me and I’ve been in a downward spiral of hopelessness ever since.”

   Wow.  I would say Heather’s expectations have greatly exceeded reality.  Dating can be viewed as a numbers game.  (That’s not entirely accurate, but it’s a place to start.)

   When I look around at the women in my city, what percentage do you think I’m interested in?  Maybe 2% – 5%.  What percentage of women do you think are interested in me?  Probably a similar percentage.

   Let’s assume that I’m interested in 5% of the women, and 5% are interested in me.  That means of every 20 women I contact through Match.com, one might be interested in me.  Of every 20 who contact me, I might be interested in one of them.  At that rate, I can find one good match in about every 400 women.

   But it doesn’t matter if the percentages are 0.5% and 0.5% (or one in every 40,000 women).  I only need to succeed once.

   Obviously, if those numbers are 5% then I’ll succeed a lot faster than if they’re 0.5%.  That’s where being open to a broader range of dates (which Evan c0aches people to do) and using better dating strategies to attract a broader range of dates (which Evan teaches people to do) help speed up the whole dating process.

   So you’re not interested in most men.  That’s normal.  So most men aren’t interested in you.  That’s normal as well.  You’re ready to give up hope because you’re in a situation that I would consider typical.

   Maybe your expectations aren’t normal.

   But if you’re getting burned out, you may want to take a break from dating for a few months to recharge.  Sometimes that’s useful.  Go pursue your passions.  Not only will that make you feel better, but you’ll also be a more interesting date.

2. Honey Oct 29th 2009 at 11:01 am 2

   Reading this, I wonder if the OP has a rewarding, rich life outside of the romantic – a job she finds rewarding that provides her with financial security, pets, hobbies, close friends that she can spend time with and feel comfortable confiding in.

   Because if she doesn’t have those things, then I think that’s where she should start.

3. Melissa Oct 29th 2009 at 11:57 am 3

   Great advice as usual Evan. 
   I needed to read this today, if only remind myself that I could have settled along time ago. 

   But I’m heeding your advice you’ve been giving me in our coaching sessions where you had me change my focus from “guy who makes me feel passion” to “guy who tries hardest to be my boyfriend”.    So if I factor in your new searching criteria, its only been 5 months of searching for the RIGHT things….   I’ll find it.  But its great to have reminder blogs like this when it seems like such a daunting task. 

4. Paul Oct 29th 2009 at 02:30 pm 4

   You’ve got to wonder though if she isn’t doing things that make men not want to see her again. I think this happens a lot, to both men and women. I know that the vast majority of women I’ve gone out with through online dating, and even some I decided on the phone not to go out with, I could coach them easily and tell them what they are doing wrong…everyone has their own blind spots. It seems that because of the nature of online dating that these negative personality or character traits are magnified – people are their own worst enemies it seems more so with online dating than the regular ‘meet them first then ask them out’ dating that happens when you meet someone in real life. I bet that if you were a fly on the wall, Evan, or anyone here could point out a lot of things this person is doing wrong. Like the old song says…”eliminate the negative and accentuate the positive”. I think you’ve really got to study this stuff, especially what the opposite  sex is looking for and is apt to be attracted to. You can learn a ton for absoultly free  just by reading Evans blogs and articles…I’m amazed at those who don’t. If you want to have success at anything, you’ve got to work at it. I also think it helps to take a long hard look at how you seem to someone who is out with you…putting the shoe on the opposite footso to speak!

5. Morgan Oct 29th 2009 at 02:54 pm 5

   Hi Heather!  Been in that boat before…I know and understand how you must feel.  For me it comes and goes in waves.  I have to say though that Karl R…nailed it!  Good goin’ Karl….he is so right.  Thank you Karl you even helped me!!!  Takin’ a break is what I do.  Sounds like you just need some time off…it’s ok.  As strange as it sounds you just might meet someone in that time off wouldn’t  that be something?  Hook back into a hobby and passion, connect with friends, get a pet….distract, distract….when it’s meant to be it will be.  Hang in there because love is always out there!  and again, thanks Karl…I  hope Heather found it useful too!  Love those reality checks! 

6. girl-with-glasses Oct 29th 2009 at 03:51 pm 6

   Yes, I know this is a generalization. But men tend to compartmentalize better. The better of them don’t take rejection personally, or at least can talk themselves out of it. With women, most of the time, that’s not true. Even three or four rejections matter alot, if taken seriously each time as an indictment of your personal attractions, you’d be spiraling into depression and tottering on the edge of your personal stability too.

   Evan, you talk about being able to accept rejection, but during your dating period, I’ll bet you did you own fair share of rejecting too. Rejecting people isn’t fun either, but if you manage to do some, it’s easier to see that it’s just the nature of game, you win some you lose some, you get hurt a little, you hurt someone else a little. You pick yourself up and keep on going because that’s life.

   For the op though, she’s sounds like she’s just entering into the dating situation, and she already thinks rejection is all that’s out there because that’s all she’s gotten so far.
   She sounds like she really needs to reframe for herself what her expectations are for meeting single men. Can she conceivably see herself dating like a man? i.e. not giving a sh*t for the first couple of dates, just meeting new people as an excuse for socializing and getting some fresh air, as opposed to something that *should* lead to a significant development?

   To the op, your self esteem should not come into it. I know this sounds vague, but practice meditation or something, or develop a stronger interest / hobby other than your love life. Meeting new people is hard, you need to know at least how to protect yourself emotionally.

7. Diana Oct 30th 2009 at 04:57 am 7

   Hi Heather. As long as you have an open heart, you will be able to fall in love again. Whether that will happen no one can say.
    
   I can relate somewhat to your situation. I’m also not that particularly interested in men, even when they are curious about me. I think it’s because as I have grown and matured, my values and what sustains me have changed. Of the handful that I did have an interest in, they were either in a different phase of their life or not all that interested in return. While I, too, have sometimes personalized their blase attitude a little too deeply, as women often do, I always have a well to replenish my spirit. And this is where trying your best to live a full and rewarding life, independent of male companionship, becomes so important. And if you keep your heart open “without expectation,” you may find yourself one day face-to-face with your next great love.
    
   Remember, all anyone truly has in this world is themselves. By loving. valuing and taking good care of yourself, you will heal and feel whole, and that heart of yours will spring wide open. Who could resist that?

8. happygirl Oct 30th 2009 at 05:51 am 8

   I can relate to you Heather. Dating is not easy. I don’t care whatever anyone says. I am a huge fan of Evan and his very straight forward advice.
   I tried for over 2 and half years to actively participate in the dating game after my divorce. I went on quite a number of dates, talked and emails with a lot of men. Took Evans advice at heart and changed my outlook about dating and think outside of the box. Widen my vision etc
   I can assure you that I am not a person who quits and gives up easily. I took myself of the dating websites and stopped dating all together. I decided just to enjoy my life and focus on just going out with friends and doing fun activities that make me happy.Dating became a chore I was just not enjoying anymore.
   I have not been out on any dates for 8 months now. I savoured that peace and quiet time in my life. It was such a relieve not having to weed out unsuitable guys , the back and forth emailing and chatting and texting and having to put my self out there on dates over and over again. Do ask myself the question will I ever meet anyone? Ever fall in love? Yes I do…but for now my focus in on me!!
   There are many other things going on in my life I just decided to focus on other things in my life……. 

9. dadshouse Nov 2nd 2009 at 06:55 am 9

   Sometimes when you stop searching, stop trying to be in control, the universe opens up and sends you something miraculous – and you notice it. Maybe if Heather stopped looking so hard, the right guy would show up in her life, unexpected.
   That sort of things happens to me all the time. I’ve met several of my post-divorce girlfriends at parties or elsewhere in real life where I didn’t know they would be. They appeared, I approached, we dated.

10. mic Nov 2nd 2009 at 10:19 am 10

    Maybe her standards are too high for what she has to offer. Makeover, treatment of physiological issues – who knows what it will take to get better results. The only thing that seems fairly obvious is that, given the long stretch of futility, she should be doing something differently.

11. Zann Nov 2nd 2009 at 01:24 pm 11

    Rejection Is Universal.  And it’s no indicator of whether someone is mate-worthy.  The reason I like this site so much is because sometimes I just gotta know: Is it me? Am I a nutjob?  Why does this happen to me?  Most important, I need to know that I am not alone.  I don’t know if this applies to Heather, but for me, the fact that none of my women friends does on-line dating makes them a pretty poor support system when I’m spiraling downward after being rejected.  They can’t relate to what I’m going through, other than to say: “I can’t believe you’re still doing that. What are you, a glutton for punishment?”  Not so helpful.  But what is clear from Evan’s response and the comments is that everyone gets dumped.  While getting some coaching advice might be very useful and increase your odds, just  keep in mind that no matter how much coaching you get or how much you widen your search or make improvements to your profile, you will still probably be rejected more than you’ll be accepted in on-line dating. It’s the nature of the beast.  The odds may not be exactly the same for everyone, but I’d bet there’s not a huge variance in the rejection-acceptance ratio among most of us.  Even hotties get rejected…they just take it harder. 

    I want to add one thing, though, particularly in response to Paul’s comment (#4 above)about how he could offer advice to women he rejects by pointing out what they’re doing wrong.  There have been a couple of times when I’ve actually asked for feedback from a guy who rejected me, asking him WHY.   The responses I got were actually pretty vague and unhelpful.  I believe the true nature of most humans (at least I hope so) is not to offend or do harm to others when it can be avoided.  But even if you did get clear and specific feedback from the guy whose just rejected you – what you will get is  just his opinion, subjective and  based on all that’s happened to him in his life leading up to now.  He might reject you  because, to him,  you’re “too up in  your head.” But the next guy you meet might just think that’s one of your most charming qualities.   A coach, on the other hand, is not personally involved in the match-up and can be more objective based on his/her experience with a broad pool of people. 

    I’m all for taking breaks, and I definitely encourage everyone — dating or not — to develop a comfortable and independent life where you like your own company.  Whenever I take a break, it’s always obvious when it’s time for me to get back in the saddle and back on line.  But don’t quit out of cynicism.  Take a break and recharge.  Know how to recognize the guy who wants to be your boyfriend & distinguish him from the guy who just wants to hang and keep it loose.  You deserve what makes you happy, but just remember that with on-line dating, you usually have to work hard for it.   Best of luck.

12. Dope Nov 2nd 2009 at 03:12 pm 12

    It’s only human to want to give up when things aren’t working out, or to infer the future from the history and the present. It’s tempting to indulge in such behavior, but ultimately foolish.

    Great post, Evan.

13. Heather Nov 5th 2009 at 11:56 am 13

    Thank you for your comments and advice.  I’ve been putting pressure on myself to date for a few reasons and it’s been wreaking havoc with my life.  I’m 36 and I feel like this love thing isn’t going to happen for me because I’ve failed at it so many times before.  I have a history of serial monogamy so dating isn’t doing more of the same for me, it’s a new and very frightening experience that I thought I’d have to go through, just like everybody else.  Maybe I don’t have to do what everybody else does.

    I’ve decided to not pressure myself for a while, but I feel like I’m in my prime and I don’t want to waste it being alone.  I’m glad to read that others experience the ‘I’m only interested in 2%-5% and only 2%-5% are interested in me’ thing.  I thought I was a freak for feeling this way – the odds just seem so astronomically stacked against me!  The online dating approach hasn’t been a good one for me – looking through pages of pictures of men’s faces and personal statements doesn’t seem like a good way to go about it.  It’s too easy for me to say ‘no’ to most of them.

    I do have issues I need to work on.  I have been doing so for a few years now, and I try to maintain a full social life outside of a relationship (another relatively new concept for me).   It’s not easy making the realization that the person you really are is not exactly the person you always hoped you’d become and that is something you need to adjust to living with because you’re a bit of a perfectionist.  Also realizing that we have no control over attraction no matter how much work we do is a pretty sobering thing.

14. Ava Nov 5th 2009 at 01:36 pm 14

    Heather #13
     
    One thing I’ve noticed about online dating is that there are alot of men (maybe women too), who are serial online daters. I’m not sure they really want to find someone. They have terrible attitudes (badmouthing their exes, knocking 10-15 years off their ages and adding those numbers to the photos they post, being generally rude and disrespectful). Unless you are one of these types, I’d say it’s not you. Finding a compatible partner is no easy task.

15. Shelagh Nov 5th 2009 at 01:47 pm 15

    I think dating is a pretty annoying thing for anyone to have to do… haha, but don’t let it get you down. You can do it! In fact, don’t ever let anything get you down. Pick up a new hobby like ballroom dancing or a class on sewing. Ok so those were bad stereotypes, but that’s what I did to pass time. At the very least, it will put a smile on your face, you’ll learn something new and you may run into a nice guy. :-)

16. Heather Nov 5th 2009 at 05:47 pm 16

    Actually, I like that idea of taking a sewing class.  I’ve always wanted to know how to do that!

    I think I’d be in less of a state if I hadn’t managed to fall for someone who didn’t reciprocate my affection.  That’s the part where I start to think I’m legitimately crazy.  I don’t know how else to heal a broken heart than to meet other guys and fall for someone new.  This whole dating venture has been an attempt to get over that last guy, but it’s only been rubbing salt in my wounds.

17. Diana Nov 6th 2009 at 06:06 am 17

    Hey Heather. Life and love can be so hard sometimes. Your history of serial monogamy is very common. As so often happens with the letters Evan receives, there can be deeper, unspoken issues. I think it’s a great sign that you recognize your inability to heal a broken heart without meeting other guys and falling all over again. By recognizing this pattern in yourself, and what appears to have been the usual disappointing results, you can begin to improve this area of your life, albeit it will be a painful, but healing process.
     
    Jumping from one relationship to another, without first healing, only masks your pain and sabotages your next relationship which is a shame because under different, emotional  circumstances, that next guy might could well be the one for you. In your best effort to do what feels right to you at that moment, you are creating the very end results you do not want.
     
    So what does all this mean? If only humans were simple creatures. Well, there’s another issue at play here, too, which is why you feel you cannot deal with the breakups in any other way. But I’m not a therapist or psychologist, and I don’t play one on TV , so this is a journey only you can navigate. You’re on your way.
     
    All the best.

18. Sayanta Nov 6th 2009 at 07:28 am 18

    Heather-

    I’m completely sympathetic. You don’t know just how sympathetic- I woke up this morning and the headline of this post went through my head. I’ve posted before, and I try hard (so hard it almost hurts) to not draw negative conclusions about men and dating in general. But, like I said, it can be very difficult- and I think sometimes only a very open-minded woman who’s completely loving toward the male sex can do it (where are you, Helen? )

    And to Ava #14-

    Ur completely right- that’s been my experience, at least. I’m 31- and I’ve been dating online off and on since I was 25. Well, I always got lots of e-mails, went out on some dates. But since I hit 31 this July, I get few hits. And the ones who do e-mail never seem to want to meet up. Since I’ve still got hot pics up, look the same as I did last year (when I was getting hundreds of e-mails), the only explanation is the 3-1, right? I’m past my expiration date. It’s absolutely disgusting. And yeah, a lot of the guys seem embarrassed to be up there, and they have me wondering if this whole online thing something they do for kicks when the wife/g-friend isn’t watching.

    It could be the site: Chemistry- which I do NOT recommend.
    So, Heather, I don’t want to make you feel worse, but the thing is in spite of what everyone’s saying…I get what you’re saying. It’s hard as hell to get along with men sometimes. And yes, I realize I’m being hypocritical here with my past posts about how there must be decent men somewhere, etc. etc. But it is what it is.

19. Ava Nov 6th 2009 at 08:42 am 19

    Sayanta #18
     
    Well, if you think 31 is hard, try being over 45! 31 still sounds pretty young to me. Hang in there!

20. Sayanta Nov 6th 2009 at 02:45 pm 20

    Ava-

    31 is young- to us women. Apparently not to the opposite sex. lol

21. Shelagh Nov 7th 2009 at 02:42 pm 21

    I don’t think it’s age. I’m 24 and I’ve been rejected plenty of times. Especially within the last 4-5 months or so when I decided that I needed to get back out there. I really had my game face too. I consider myself good at dating, hopefully. It’s only about age to idiots. I’m sorry, but if a guy passes up on an awesome woman because she’s 31? He’s a complete tool, and not worth your time! I know because of my age that there are PLENTY of things that I don’t know, I don’t know(said twice on purpose), but don’t give up. I feel like I was in that state of mind 3 months ago in the midst of guys walking all over me, and I hate seeing any other woman go through it. It’s very depressing. It made me depressed. After that I just didn’t want to date anymore, and it was making me crazy (therefore giving me the “why bother” mentality). But I met someone amazing shortly after that, and I’m not saying this to rub it in your face. Just trying to get you to remember, as hard as it is, that there are decent guys out there. There are definitely more guys out there that you are less compatible with, but there are also good ones! You’re not as alone as you may think you are. Being younger in the dating scene is probably worse. At least at an older age you would have more confidence that the guy is interested in a long-term relationship instead of a ”fling.” Honestly, if it’s worse than what I went through then … well… then refer to the part where I just flat out don’t know. haha. By the way, crocheting is very therapeutic and distracting. It’s easier than it looks, that’s for sure.

22. Sayanta Nov 7th 2009 at 03:30 pm 22

    Shelagh…aw, thanks. I needed that boost, trust me. Yeah, I do have hobbies, but nothing crafty. Sewing, crotcheting are definitely things I want to try!

23. Ava Nov 7th 2009 at 10:17 pm 23

    Shelagh #21
     
    “Being younger in the dating scene is probably worse. At least at an older age you would have more confidence that the guy is interested in a long-term relationship instead of a ”fling.””
     
    Yeah, you would think so. But you’d be wrong. I still deal with the same dating problems I had with men 25 years ago, only now the men have lots more baggage.

24. Shelagh Nov 8th 2009 at 03:02 pm 24

    Sayanta… You’re welcome.
    Ava… oi vey. That sounds nightmare-ish

25. JerseyGirl Nov 21st 2009 at 09:08 pm 25

    “ It’s hard as hell to get along with men sometimes.” – Sayanta
    “…only now the men have lots more baggage.” – Ava
    You can say both those things again Ladies. And ontop of that. Every average guy now thinks he deserves 18 year old twin porn stars because that’s what all the porn-mags told him he deserved. I really think we’ve hit a low point with men and women and relationships in the 21st century here.  Then we got dating experts telling us that women are worthless after a certain age too. Yay for women, screwed no matter what we do.

26. Evan Marc Katz Nov 21st 2009 at 09:31 pm 26

    Hey Jersey,

    What dating experts are telling women that they’re worthless after a certain age?

    I’m friends with a lot of them and should be aware of anyone who’s giving such dangerous and false advice.

    Thanks a bunch,

    Evan

27. JerseyGirl Nov 21st 2009 at 09:58 pm 27

    Maybe worthless was strong but that’s how it feels. Perhaps it’s better to say that women are considered less worthy to be considered for love after a certain age.

28. Evan Marc Katz Nov 21st 2009 at 11:38 pm 28

    Do men covet youth? Yes. But given that there are millions of American women who find love at all ages every year, I wouldn’t quite conclude that all men find all women of a certain age to be unworthy of love.

29. JerseyGirl Nov 22nd 2009 at 01:17 am 29

    What’s the problem here Evan? It’s okay for you to say that men covet youty but not okay for women to say it? I never said “all men”. But clearly enough men undervalue women while they expect to be respected based on something they clearly don’t respect women for. For aging. How come it’s okay for you to say it but it’s not okay for me to? It’s okay for you to give the “hard truth” and tell women that every year they get older is another year that just makes it all that much harder for them to find a man that will be loyal to them but it’s not okay for women, like me, to recongnize that the truth behind that throught process is that men think women are less worthy of being loved every year they age. yet men think they deserve it no matter what age they are.

30. Evan Marc Katz Nov 22nd 2009 at 02:46 am 30

    I’m not sure what you’re talking about or why you’re upset. So I’m going to go through this, step by step, to make this crystal clear.

    I said “men covet youth”

    I didn’t say that men who covet youth were being fair. I didn’t say that men who covet youth were being realistic. I didn’t say “it’s not okay for women to covet youth, too”. These are all conclusions that you falsely drew based on one undeniable observation: “Men covet youth.”

    By the way, I’m pretty sure YOU agreed with this observation when you said: “Every average guy now thinks he deserves 18 year old twin porn stars”. So am I to take it that because you said “men think they deserve porn stars” you agree that they should get porn stars?

    No? You don’t think that? Well, this is the consistently twisted logic that I’m faced with in these comments.

    You realize how annoying this is? To be misquoted on my own blog, time after time? And to repeatedly engage in this tiresome conversation because I don’t want to “censor” your point of view – even when your point of view attributes ideas to me that are not actually mine?

    Readers, please. Just because I observe something that you would agree on – men are shallow, men don’t call, men flake out – does not mean I’m defending them. I’m pointing out something we all know to be true. The lesson is not to tell men to stop being shallow, start calling, or stop flaking out. You’ll never succeed. The lesson for women is to walk away from men like this. If you can’t understand this – if you’re going to have a negative reaction every time I point out something that is TRUE that you don’t like – I’m going to delete your comments. They don’t contribute to the dialogue, they derail it by trafficking in falsehoods. Pointing out that men behave badly is not an endorsement of them. Pointing out that women could understand men better isn’t an indictment of you.

    I think it’s clear that I have no trouble with reasonable disagreements, but any further misattributions of my words will not see the light of day.

    I shouldn’t have to spend so much time setting the record straight on my own blog.

    Have a lovely Sunday.

    Evan

31. Sayanta Nov 22nd 2009 at 08:23 am 31

    Evan-

    Just curious- do you monitor this blog 24/7? I guess if it’s your blog, you would have to- but I’m highly impressed with your work ethic. Call me lazy, but I’d be taking Sunday off from work. lol

32. JerseyGirl Nov 22nd 2009 at 08:49 am 32

    How is saying that men consider women are less worthy of being considered for love and relationships after a certain age any different then saying “men convet youth”? It’s the same thing!  That’s basically the underlining message. That’s not completely unfair to say, I don’t think.
     
    Women are told men convet youth because on some level, that’s suppose to be a reminder to women or maybe even a warning. Women are told men covet youth because it’s suppose to give women a better understanding about male thought process. But what do you expect women to do with that information? Feel good? Feel happy? Feel nothing? We can’t make ourselves younger. We can’t change it. Accept it like whipped dogs? Feel more understanding and loving towards men despite being told that men think our value goes down? Hurry to the alter as the time clock is ticking? Buy him porn of 18 year olds and hope he still lets us wash his clothes? I don’t get it. I really don’t. It’s okay to say men convet youth but it’s not okay to understand that those three words basically mean that men think women hold less value and are less worthy of their attention with age.
     
    Men convet youth because they consider women less worthy as they age. Tht’s what “men convet youth” really means.  All men? of course not. Enough though to make the statement in the first place. I never made claims that you said it was right or wrong. Just that we are told what male expectations are and are expected to still feel like putting effort into relationships with them despite the message that we are pretty much fighting a loosing battle anyway.
     
    Seriously, I am not trying to fight with you here Evan. Some of the ladies above were commenting on things and I chimed in agreement and I think it snowballed from there. And maybe my comments could have been executed better but I still stand by them. Women get told men convet youth and we are expected to do what with that information? Feel empowered? Or just more honest that even if a guy settles for us after 30, he will always convet youth. I don’t get it what we are suppose to get from that. You are trying to help women understand men but if women are told they are on the decline with each passing year, how is that suppose to help or motivate them?

33. Evan Marc Katz Nov 22nd 2009 at 10:53 am 33

    Why is it my job to spin everything into an empowering, uplifting message? Is that what you think dating coaching is? “You’re perfect. Don’t change a thing. Men will do all the changing and the world will conform to your wishes” Talk about unhelpful advice. What is there to learn from blind validation?

    As I see it, I report an objective truth about how men operate and then give guidance about what you should do next. Read my advice. It’s the same message EVERY single time. Yet you keep going back to: “Men shouldn’t operate that way!” But men DO operate that way. They’ll always operate that way.

    And that’s my message to you. Stop expecting men to do what YOU want them to do. THAT’s the harmful thing – not ME calling out what we both already observe.

    Only by understanding basic principles like: men are visual, men are ego-driven, men are fickle, men don’t care to communicate the same way you do – only by understanding this can you actually make healthy, informed decisions.

    Every time you “argue” with me, you’re asking men to change. Every time I write back, I say, “you can’t change men”.

    If you find, “you can’t change men,” to be depressing, then I’m sorry, but many women actually find men to love DESPITE what I’m sharing with you. And THAT is the helpful and motivating message you seem to be willfully ignoring.

34. Karl R Nov 22nd 2009 at 01:11 pm 34

    JerseyGirl said: (#32)
    “Men convet youth because they consider women less worthy as they age. Tht’s what ‘men convet youth’ really means.”
    
    I look young for my age.  I’m glad that I do.  My girlfriend (who is older than me) looks young for her age.  She’s glad that she does (as am I).

    People covet youth.  Particularly the appearance of youth.  I appreciate my girlfriend’s emotional maturity.  But if I could get all that and the way she looked 20 years ago …. Yowza!

    My friend Becky is 20 years older than me.  I think she is worthy and deserving of love.  But I’m not going to date her.  She’s too old (for me).

    “Women get told men convet youth and we are expected to do what with that information?”

    Have you ever noticed the people who say they’re “young for their age” always use it to justify seeking a partner who is younger than them?  Then they wonder why it doesn’t work for them.

    Let’s say I look 10 years younger than I am.  I could date women 10 years younger than me.  (And I have.)  But to do that, I have to compete against men who are 10 years younger than me.  I lose my advantage of looking young, because all my competition shares that advantage.  I may be in great shape for my age, but I’m in kind of mediocre shape for 10 years younger.

    Instead, let’s say I find a woman who is ten years older than me, but happens to look 10 years younger than she is.  Who is trying to date her?  Men 10 years older than her, 20 years older than her.  Compared to those guys, I look amazing!  I’m in phenomenal shape!

    That’s what I did with the information.  You’ll have to figure out how you can make use of the information.

35. Ava Nov 22nd 2009 at 03:09 pm 35

    “If you find, “you can’t change men,” to be depressing, then I’m sorry, but many women actually actually find men to love DESPITE what I’m sharing with you. And THAT is the helpful and motivating message you seem to be willfully ignoring.”
     
    I’d like to offer a bit of a challenge to the idea that “men covet youth”. Yes, many men do. But I’ve also talked to numerous men who told me that while they appreciated youth, that wasn’t necessarily what they wanted in a serious partner. I’ve had men tell me that dating a woman close to their daughter’s age felt creepy, that they wanted someone who could share a similar history, that they wanted someone with more stability. I’ve been approached by much younger guys who think I’m “cool” and more interesting then women their own age. Many older men who’ve already had kids and don’t want more prefer women in their own age range because younger women usually want children.
     
    Yeah, I know, the media consistently reinforces this idea that younger is better, and we’re constantly told that’s just how men are, but it isn’t true for everyone all the time. I guess that is why “many women actually actually find men to love DESPITE…” the “obstacle of age”.

36. Heather Nov 22nd 2009 at 07:07 pm 36

    Sigh.  This has gotten ugly.  I didn’t read the ‘female expiration date’ discussion in it’s entirety because I’m having a good day so far.  However, here are my two cents:

    I went to a tour of artist’s studios today and the first studio I visited had a collection of female nude portraits.  The women in the photos ranged in age from 20-77 and every shape, size, and race.  It is called ‘Bodies Mapping Time’ http://www.jmichaelwalker.com/id170.htm

    You cannot see the full nude portraits I saw on this website, but I felt so inspired by seeing this I thought I would share.  These photos capture so much of each woman’s personality and life story that, even though they are completely exposed and we can see all of their ‘flaws’, they are beautiful.  Look at any one of the women in the portraits and tell me she is ‘worthless’ for any reason.

37. Evan Marc Katz Nov 22nd 2009 at 07:17 pm 37

    Please allow me to remind you that the ONLY person who said that women were worthless was JerseyGirl. Sigh.

38. Heather Nov 22nd 2009 at 07:41 pm 38

    Wasn’t directing that at you, Evan.  Just trying to make things a little lighter.

39. Selena Nov 23rd 2009 at 03:03 am 39

    If you are a woman who comes across a man who prefers to only date women 10 or more years younger than himself what is your impression of that man? That he’s shallow? That he’s deluded himself into thinking he looks /acts  younger than he actually is?  Perhaps he’s looking for someone he can have control over?

    Would you want such a person for yourself? No? Look at it this way, such a man has saved you from weeding him out as potential relationship material. He’s done the work for you.

40. Sayanta Nov 23rd 2009 at 04:33 pm 40

    Jersey Girl-

    I was just thinking- women covet rock stars the same way men covet models, right? (or maybe it’s just me – haha) Same thing- both unrealistic.

41. Heather Nov 23rd 2009 at 05:05 pm 41

    I totally ‘get’ why supermodels end up with hideous rock stars (think Ric Ocasek and Paulina Porizkova, or Marilyn Manson and … whoever he’s with right now).  In fact, that’s the only reason I’d ever wish to be a supermodel myself!

    There are different kinds of ‘rock stars’, however, and they are the sexy guys.  I’m not just thinking about musicians – many artists, designers, architects, and even college professors can be ‘rock stars’ of sorts.  It’s an attitude, not an occupation.  I think its the reputation and recognition that these fellows get that turns us on.  At least that’s what it is for me!

42. Sayanta Nov 23rd 2009 at 05:52 pm 42

    Oh- I meant sexy beast rock stars on stage- like Plant and Page.

43. Heather Nov 23rd 2009 at 06:21 pm 43

    To each her own.  I’d totally do Marilyn Manson

    (Maybe y’all know why I can’t get a date now!)

44. Rose Nov 23rd 2009 at 07:55 pm 44

    I’m not sure if JerseyGirl meant to direct her anger toward you, Evan, and sometimes it takes a long time for women to really “get” the message your giving. But you can see how women use blogs like this as a place to vent their very real pain and frustration toward not all, but A LOT of guys. I must admit my own dismay at the quote from today’s blog post, “In the past month, I’ve had three clients find relationships within 3 months of coaching.” One is 35, one is 34, and the other is 41,” I’m thinking, “oh, none of your 47-year-old clients (like me) had any luck this month? ” I am one of those women who consistently is told she looks MUCH younger than her age… I think it’s because I am healthy, attractive, and have a childlike face and profile. But I still can’t get men *my own age* to ask me out! If a guy shows interest in me at all, he is generally 5-10 years older than me (or more) and not as good looking as me. Very tough, because when I was younger (I am a widow whose late husband was very handsome), I could attract men near my age whom I considered good looking. Now those guys seem largely to be seeking much younger women. So, guys can be found, but mostly not the good-looking ones anymore, sadly. My therapist says men who are psychologically mature will want to date women their own age. I’m hoping to meet one of those guys who isn’t already taken. : )

45. Evan Marc Katz Nov 23rd 2009 at 08:53 pm 45

    I get the frustration – I’m a dating coach for women, after all.

    However, you’re jumping to more conclusions that haven’t even been implied.

    “3 of my clients found love” does not equal “There is no hope for 47-year-old women”. That’s YOU talking, not me.

    In fact, about two months ago, I wrote a post about a 73-year-old client who found a boyfriend after 8 weeks of dating coaching. Could you imagine a 29-year-old woman reading that and thinking, “Gosh…Evan helped a 73-year-old woman find love…what hope is there for me?”

    This is what happens when we personalize statements of fact. You make yourself upset over something that should be inspiring: people who work with me are successful. Last month, it was three women from 37-41. Next month it might be you!

    Don’t lose hope…

46. Rose Nov 23rd 2009 at 10:10 pm 46

    Thanks for the reply, Even; I feel honored. I know, I shouldn’t jump to conclusions… just that in your quoted statistics for the month there were no successes over 45, but you’re right that it’s important not to generalize and that was just the past month. Bravo for the 73-year-old… I will have to check that post!

    One more point I wanted to make is that I personally feel that the  playing field between men and women will begin to even out to some degree when technologies like egg freezing are perfected (too late for me) and perhaps even artifical gametes are developed… but I know that latter one is very much in the future and is at present still rather in the “science fiction” category. I really believe it is largely a man’s ability to reproduce that gives him the bargaining chip where age is concerned.

    My problem is that I still want a child, but it would have to be by egg donation, at this point, which I prefer to adoption. So, I find myself lying about my age on dating web sites, just to have the chance to hear back from men who want kids. Tonight, for example, on plentyoffish where I’ve listed myself as 42 (I am 47), I have a message from a handsome 58-year-old who wants to have a child (he thinks he’s writing to a woman 16 years his junior, whereas even at 47, I am still 11 years his junior!). Now, what do I do, and when do I come clean? I hate being dishonest and I shouldn’t do it, but I’m in the delicate position of still very much wanting to give birth to a child in a country where egg donation still isn’t mainstream (and in my case, it needs to happen fairly soon!). I would be interested in your view on this or even a blog post on it, because I don’t believe you have dealt specifically with the issue of egg donation and men’s views on it. This would be huge for me as a blog post, and I bet for many other women as well.

    Really appreciate your honesty on this site regarding your own life, dating experiences, and marriage. I think it’s why I read your blog.

47. Sayanta Nov 24th 2009 at 07:04 am 47

    Heather

     do the Dita Von Teese thing and you will get Marilyn Manson. lol-

    btw- if that’s what you like, you should just come to New York, and hang out at the Bat Cave or something.

48. Kenley Nov 24th 2009 at 08:01 am 48

    I find it so interesting that women complain that men seek younger women when women are also seeking younger men — not men who are younger than they are per se, but men who are younger than the men who contact them.  Either way, both types of preferences are placing a higher value on someone younger.    For me, a guy who is only 5 years older than I am IS my age.  If the acceptable age range for  a woman is plus or minus 2 years, she could be eliminating a whole bunch of good men.   When I was in my 20’s, my long term boyfriend was 10 years older.    When I started dating again in my 40’s, my long term boyfriend  is also 10 years older than I am.    We both are active,  young at heart, and always up for an adventure.    There are lots of people in their 50’s and 60’s who are vibrant and full of life.  I don’t think people should date anyone for whom they don’t feel some kind of attraction, but giving someone who is 5 to 10 years older might not be such a bad thing.
    It’s been noted once or twice on this blog, but the parallels between finding a job and finding a mate or so similar.    I have a friend looking for work who complains that when he is was seeking a job 15 years ago, he got multiple overs within 3 weeks of beginning his search.  Now he is been searching for over a year without any offers from his field.    While I greatly empathize with him (I’m looking for work myself), holding on to what happened in the past only serves to make you feel bad and does nothing to help you adjust to what’s happening now.
    I think the same holds true for dating.  Holding on to the men or women you could get in the past — who are ignoring you now — only serves to make you feel bad.  You just need to focus on what can you do right now to get a good partner.

49. Kenley Nov 24th 2009 at 09:52 am 49

    Sorry for all the typos in my previous post.  I openly admit that I not the best proof reader — especially when I’m not wearing my eye glasses!

50. Jennifer Nov 24th 2009 at 10:07 am 50

    @Kenley #48
    I absolutely love these lines from your post:
    *holding on to what happened in the past only serves to make you feel bad and does nothing to help you adjust to what’s happening now.*
    It applies to so many things.

51. Jennifer Nov 24th 2009 at 10:27 am 51

    @Rose #46
    I sympathize with your situation. I wonder if you’ve considered a couple of things though:

    -when do you, or when do you plan to, reveal your real age to your dates? Do you disclose your real age in teh written section of  your profile? The pyschologically healthy men you were referring to a few posts ago would most likely not appreciate being lied to, even if you consider it to be a minor one
    -Say you began corresponding with a man that said he wanted children. At some point after you’ve been dating and developing feelings, what if  he says he didn’t mean it, he only said it because he knew a lot of women wanted kids. You’d likely feel deceived and angry- you don’t want to cause that feeling in someone else.
    -Based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of egg donation, there are no gurantees. I’m guessing you’d want someone who is just as dedicated to seeing the effort through as you are. I believe you have a better shot of finding that guy if you are honest from the beginning.

    Are you on any other website besides POF? eHarmony is somewhat known for having family-oriented clientele, over  a large age-range.
    Regardless, i wish you the best.

52. JerseyGirl Nov 25th 2009 at 07:07 pm 52

    Evan Marc KatzNov 22nd 2009 at 07:17 pm 37

    Please allow me to remind you that the ONLY person who said that women were worthless was JerseyGirl. Sigh.
    ———————————————————————————-
    That’s not what I said at all. Lets agree that neither one of us likes being misqouted.
    And I certainly never said that you should be telling us we are perfect. Infact, I find it a little insulting that you persist in using this arguement when it’s so far from the subject. It’s not a matter of you blowing sunshine up our you know what. It’s a discussion.
    It doesn’t depress me that “you can’t change men”. What depresses me are the comments that men are selifsh, fickel…etc etc etc. And that you just want women to accept it so they can get a few scraps of affection. Men don’t stop being selfish or fickle just because you get inrelationships, at least by your very own reasoning. It seems that women are expect to give more and keep give more of themselves then men are expected to. That’s not motiviation. And telling women “hey you are too old but you MIGHT get a man to throw you a bone” isn’t motivation either.

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