Women Choosing to Be Single Instead of Married in Old Age

Evan Marc Katz

I really didn’t plan on beating this marriage thing to death, but there have been a spate of articles about marriage recently.

This one validates something I already suspected from writing this blog for 5 years: that single women, in particular, are opting out of marriage and remarriage.

It makes sense from many perspectives. Women are self-sufficient in a way they weren’t 30 years ago. The stigma against divorce is largely gone. There are other single women with whom you can have a strong community. And there’s been an increase in people looking for happiness and being unwilling to suffer through unhappy marriages. These are all good things.

I agree wholeheartedly that it’s better to be single than to be in a bad relationship.

Because if it’s not abundantly clear from the previous Saturday posts on marriage, I’m not a dogmatist, I’m a pragmatist. I believe that marriage can and should be a positive force, but only if both parties are on the same page and willing to make the necessary sacrifices for that marriage. I agree wholeheartedly that it’s better to be single than to be in a bad relationship.

Just don’t forget who’s choosing the bad relationship – you.

Which means that you can choose a good relationship and a good marriage when you’re good and ready.

You don’t have to opt out of it for life as so many of these women in the NYT article do. Click here to read the article if you have an NYT subscription.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

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87 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Marriage, Relationships

87 Responses to “Women Choosing to Be Single Instead of Married in Old Age”

1. sarahrahrah! 1

   Thanks for this posting, Evan.  What I got out of the article is that older women are not so much choosing to be single as they just are becoming single.  I think there are a lot of dynamics at play, but considering that the older men get, the younger the age of the women they want to date and marry, it makes sense that there would be fewer (eligible) men available to marry older women.
   I appreciated this article shining a light on the implications of singleness for women as they age.  From my standpoint (and it is an obviously subjective perspective), there are certain intolerable situations within a marriage, the top being infidelity, abuse and financial recklessness.  My thought is that if women are becoming single at such a vulnerable time in their lives, then the circumstances leading up to those actions must be fairly significant.  It angers me that many of the women mentioned had or were raising children, but didn’t have a pension or retirement for themselves.  I feel that the United States is failing both women and children when women are essentially punished for being the ones who sacrifice their careers in order to raise children.  Shame on us as a society.  (And pardon my digression.)

2. Jane 2

   This article was informative, but dealt mostly with demographics and trends, not so much with the personal side of things. 
   My question is, how do all these single older people. mostly women,  deal with their sex lives? Do they just shut it down? Do they have partners on the side just for the purpose of sex?  I’m only speaking for myself here, but a life of yoga, tennis and hanging out with girlfriends would only take me so far.  Physical intimacy is essential for both emotional and physical health and let’s be honest, it’s FUN!! I wish the article had addressed this issue. If older women are choosing to be single, are they choosing to be celibate as well?  I really hope not. Thoughts anyone?
    

3. valleyforgelady 3

   This article is dejevu….I remember reading over 25 years ago that for a woman over 35 to find a husband was a long shot.   Then I got married and tried to have a baby…another long shot.   I had the baby…and she is getting all As in college.   I am now divorced over 60 and hoping to fall in love and get married for the third and final time!  Give up…..NEVER. Giving up is not in my DNA!
   .
   I think to survive today you have to buck the popular pessimism that the mass media puts out!   I say Hope triumphs over bad experience if you are faithful and shrewd!  

       

4. Lynn 4

   Thanks, Evan, for your thoughts on this topic! As a single woman at 50 years old (never married) I agree it’s better to be single than in a bad relationship, and that also, it’s possible to find a good relationship! I’m happily single even at my “ripe old age” of 50, but I would love to be happily married. 
   One comment above emphasizes women “becoming single” but doesn’t mention those many of us single women who have so far, “remained single.” I just wanted to mention that.
   The other comment above asks what single women do to deal with their sex lives. I’m sure there is a variety of things women do – some perfectly fine and good, some probably not healthy emotionally or physically. Personally, I have gone without for long periods of time, because I prefer to not have a lot of casual sex just to meet that physical need. I’ve had relationships, but when I haven’t been in one, I’ve just managed to cope! One way to release some of the tension is self-pleasuring. Another outlet I’ve found – and I’m not sure about it being a good or bad option – is online sexual relationships… Anonymous e-mailing and IM’ing with a man and having cyber-sex, erotic sex chat… whatever you want to call it. The problem there can be, becoming satisfied just enough that way, to not pursue love in the “real world.” 
   Anyway… in answer to Jane’s question: “If older women are choosing to be single, are they choosing to be celibate as well?” I think a very small minority actually set out to “choose” celibacy. I’ve had long periods of celibacy, not by choice (except that I chose not to have casual sex and just within a more meaningful relationship.  But I did not actual set out to be celibate as a goal.) 
    

5. Brooke Clarke 5

   Hi:
    
   If you’ve read “Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality”, have children and know about the law marriage does not make sense.  For example if you “forsake all others” that means your children.  But not married does not mean alone.  My next door neighbors on both sides are couples that are not married.  Also seeing someone on a regular basis for intimate companionship sure is great.

6. amy 6

   Sarah, I don’t think it’s a digression at all. The money issue’s a very serious one.

   I’m going to propose something radical: Women are better people than men are. Just nicer, harder-working, more responsible human beings. I’m proposing that there’s a reason why men use that unctuous “better half” phrase. We really are the better half. We make homes, we make life, we put up with tremendous crap, we don’t go browbeating each other in an effort to prove we’re best. We don’t become immediately insecure and aggressive when our partners are better than we are at varrious things. We notice what needs to be done. We notice when some proposed maneuver is utterly stupid. And the kicker: After divorce, women thrive, while men do very poorly. Separation and divorce is a time of high suicide risk and risk of violence against others for men; it’s not what you fear in women. They need us, in other words, more than we need them. In midlife I watch men hitting the wall around me, and I begin to think that that controversial Jewish prayer about thanking God for making one a man and not a woman — I begin to think it’s just meant to make men feel better. Because God knows I wouldn’t trade. It looks like a hell of a lonely, hard existence. (Sorry, Evan.)

   On the whole. I’ve found, as a single mom, that if I’m going to rely on someone for help, that someone is almost always a woman. They’re the ones who not only come through, but are concerned enough to consider that I might need help in the first place. And that’s despite the fact that the men I know are universally acclaimed as “good guys”. An ordinary woman’s more reliable than a good guy.

   So if all that’s the case…well, hell, how much searching through haystacks should we do for the rare guy who’s suitable and good enough to marry? I figured out a long time ago that it’s a mistake to move or change career for a fella, so I live in a place now that suited me. Is it a great place for meeting the kinds of men I’d be interested in, no. Would I move myself and my daughter for the purpose of meeting such men, no. This is a wonderful place for raising a child, and, as it happens, quite friendly to women; her dad and dad’s family are also here. So I’ll stay till she’s grown.

   I think the question comes down to “how important is marriage, and what are you willing to do for it?” And I think the answer these women — and I — are giving is that while marriage may be important, particularly as we age, other things are important to. What am I willing to do for it? Well, I’ll substitute “find my man”, assuming such exists, since personally I’m not interested in remarrying. So what am I willing to do: the answer is “nothing that interferes with my happiness or material wellbeing or my ability to raise my daughter well.” Do I think I’ll eventually find someone, sure, but that’s because I’m just awesome, and because every so often powerful love comes along in my life. (I’m old enough now to understand that that’s because of me, not the guys.) I’m not worried about it, and not in any hurry.

   What comes first in the meantime is the child: that’s the job I picked and wanted. And I am amazed by the difference in the return on love, loving and caring for a child and loving and caring for a man. I wasn’t expecting or looking for it. But hands down, kids are the winners. The other day my little girl thanked me for giving her life. Can you imagine? My head almost fell off my shoulders. She tries to help around here, she wants to help. She speaks nicely and considerately, and she’s just a pretty awesome person herself. I’m floored every day.

   Oh and this celibacy issue, pish tosh. This is like a controlling-men concern that gets brought up as some kind of red herring. I have sex every day; it just doesn’t involve real live penises. It’s only men who regard masturbation as a demerit on the scoreboard.

   To be perfectly frank (and when am I not?), most men of my intimate acquaintance just haven’t been all that red-hot in the sack. And when real live penises are involved, there is unfortunately real live sperm and the possibility of real live disease to worry about. Who pays for testing and contraception? Not the men, I’ll tell you that. So, you know. If you’re celibate, that’s your own fault. God gave you hands and an imagination, no? And there’s catalogues galore out there, though personally I’ve never found anything to beat hands.

7. Mimi 7

   I always intended to be married again…at any age.  However, I’m currently in my early sixties still performing, have an advanced degree and continuing my career. The translation is I’m really thankful for my independence, good health and energy. Aside from the bad marriage- good marriage perspective, however, I think there is a pragmatic side to things.  That is — the man’s health, financial resources, forced early retirement, allowances given to adult children  and a big one among men over a certain age—depression.  As a dating partner, I think these elements are a lot easier to deal with than within a marriage where both the wife and husband’s time and money may go toward  allaying the strain of these issues.

8. mellie charnalia 8

   Hi, this sort of reminds me of another recent article about people who “never found the one”. Sometimes I get scared when I read articles like these, particularly combined with the frustrations of dating. Or people saying to me “boy, I’m glad I already had a partner before I moved to NYC–dating here would kill me” (gee, thanks!)
   But for every one of these stories, I hear even more of people who found love (and lasting love at that). Some were looking, some weren’t. Are the people getting out of bad, mis-matched relationships growing from them and determined to open their hearts for something GOOD? I’ve never had a good, healthy relationship but instead of thinking, oh damn, men suck (which I once did), I’m so excited about the possibility of having a GREAT relationship with a man for the first time! Or, of evolving to the point that I feel I would be a really wonderful partner (better than had I gotten married even a couple of years ago). So, this is a long-winded way of saying no one should stay in a bad relationship but at any point, like Evan says, we can choose to be in a good relationship. And it will happen, as long as we’re committed to our growth and to creating space in our life for it to happen. I keep trying to remember this when I feel like giving up, like once a week sometimes!

    

9. helene 9

   I don’t think its difficult to understand why older women, once out of a marriage, might think twice about getting into another one. Because of the fact that men die younger than women, women have ALWAYS had to face up to the prospect that their most elderly, vulnerable years will be spent alone. In the past, an older woman’s life often went like this: children leave home, woman then realises her marriage is offering little in the way of closeness or joy, woman stays in stagnant marriage anyway, husband retires,woman  cares for progressively ailing husband throughout her 60s, husband dies, woman spends the remainder or her life alone. What is happening nowadays is that after the children leave, the woman in an unfulfilling marriage is  reevaluating and choosing to skip the  part where she stays in a loveless relationship and  cares for the man in his latter years, grabbing what remains of her active life for herself while she has the chance. Hooking up with a new man (unless he’s wonderful) is not something an older woman would jump at as she  realises  he will not be there to provide support and care for her OWN old age anyway- as one older friend of mine put it recently “Why should I reorganise my whole life to accomodate a new person if he’s only going to die on me in a few years??!” In the past, a woman finding herself alone in her 50s or 60s might have felt very vulnerable without a man – she might never have worked outside the home, lacked confidence outwith the domestic arena and was financially stranded. A professional woman used to the outside world and with her own income does not experience that same level of vulnerability – now, just as with younger women, she is only going to want a guy because she WANTS him!

10. P 10

    @Amy

    I’ve been watching your posts for a little bit now, and your latest here seems to confirm what I’ve been suspecting: You’re angry at men in general because of events in your past involving specific men you were involved with. Whether those events or relationships were intimate or otherwise, you clearly have an anti-male bias here that seems to be self-confirming.

    This latest post of yours though…I had to state a few things and point out some flaws and fallacies in your argument. You state:

    I’m going to propose something radical: Women are better people than men are.

    What you are proposing is indeed radical, and radical feminists would be proud of you. So would Adolf Hitler, modern Neo-Nazis and just about any individual from history who has advocated the supremecy of one group over another based upon flawed and often incomplete assessments.  The problem with radical ideas, in general, is that they very rarely turn out to be correct. They may be a genesis for a modified theory or idea, but the original “radical” idea is usually thrown into the wastebasket after further analysis.

    Just nicer, harder-working, more responsible human beings. 

    Proof please, that involves  more than just your opinion based upon an emotional bias generated from your own specific life experiences and the limited number of specific men you happen to be aware of.  I know plenty of supportive, nice, kind men…who work damn hard at everything they do and are extremely responsible. Yet, I’m not saying men are better than women in these regards just because I also know quite a few irresponsible, mean, lazy women as well.  Speaking of which, your generalizations towards men aren’t exactly those of a “nice” or critically thoughtful person. 

    I’m proposing that there’s a reason why men use that unctuous “better half” phrase. We really are the better half. We make homes,

    And men never make homes? Hmm…
     
    we make life,

    Oh.  I see. I hate to tell you this, but not without men you don’t. Those eggs in your body are absolutely, positively useless without male sperm unless you’ve somehow managed to modify our species to reproduce completely asexually. Yes, you CARRY the new life during gestation, but don’t fool yourself or confuse yourself into thinking you alone created that life. You didn’t. And I’m sorry that someone has to carry that fetus…but that’s the way it works. Nature chose that…men didn’t in some kind of unanimous “hey, let’s see how women like this” roundtable.
     
    we put up with tremendous crap, 

    As do men. For every example of male behavior you can cite that women ”put up with”, an equal behavior can be cited that men put up with from women.
      
    we don’t go browbeating each other in an effort to prove we’re best. We don’t become immediately insecure and aggressive when our partners are better than we are at varrious things. 
      
    Perhaps not. But women also psychologically perform a number of similar actions which could be considered destructive. Women are taught to be consensus-builders, and as such typically will more often than not validate another woman’s behavior rather than challenge it, often times to the detriment of both. Women will engage in competitive activities that “put down” other women (cattiness in social settings and groups towards other “threatening” females).  
       
    We notice what needs to be done. We notice when some proposed maneuver is utterly stupid.

    Yes well…I don’t even know where you are coming up with this.  I’ve seen both men and women “not notice” when something needs to be done AND notice when something needs to be done. I’ve also seen both men and women perform utterly stupid maneuvers as well as hold rational thought.  This is a baseless statement.
     
    And the kicker: After divorce, women thrive, while men do very poorly. Separation and divorce is a time of high suicide risk and risk of violence against others for men; it’s not what you fear in women.

    Interesting. And an interesting way of reading into things. Statistically, up until recently, men have actually fared better after divorce than women have along a number of fronts. In the past couple of decades this has tended to equalize somewhat, with women approaching the same level of “wellness” after divorce that men have had all along. This is along multiple lines of wealth, mentalhealth, and so forth. This is equalization, however…not women surpassing men in that regard.
      
    On the whole. I’ve found, as a single mom, that if I’m going to rely on someone for help, that someone is almost always a woman. They’re the ones who not only come through, but are concerned enough to consider that I might need help in the first place. And that’s despite the fact that the men I know are universally acclaimed as “good guys”. An ordinary woman’s more reliable than a good guy.   
    
    Perhaps its how you view men and treat them which is the root of why nobody on the male side of things wants to be there for you…and I mean  you, specifically.  Nobody can be saying that women are superior beings to men without having a preconceived notion that translates, even subtly, into how they treat men.  I personally know plenty of women who have issues with their female friends.  It comes down to the people you choose and how you treat them as to whether someone is going to be there for you, not what sex they happen to be.

    What comes first in the meantime is the child: that’s the job I picked and wanted. And I am amazed by the difference in the return on love, loving and caring for a child and loving and caring for a man. I wasn’t expecting or looking for it. But hands down, kids are the winners. The other day my little girl thanked me for giving her life. Can you imagine? My head almost fell off my shoulders. She tries to help around here, she wants to help. She speaks nicely and considerately, and she’s just a pretty awesome person herself. I’m floored every day.     

    I agree.  Raising a child can be a rewarding an wonderful experience!  Comparing that to a relationship with a man though?  Apples and oranges…two different things completely and trying to use that as an argument point is ridiculous. A man in this context is an adult with adult needs and adult psychology. A child is a dependent, reliant upon you for everything and, especially when young, more pliable than a grown adult with their own wants and needs that aren’t necessarily the wants and needs you tell him to have. I look forward to you coming back here when your little girl is older and beginning to break away and express her own adult independence.  Things change then…its a different relationship.  Don’t compare relationships between adults with relationships between a parent and a dependent.  Its not an accurate, fair, or representational method.        

    To be perfectly frank (and when am I not?),

    I’d tend to use the phrase “obnoxiously biased”…but I digress… 

    most men of my intimate acquaintance just haven’t been all that red-hot in the sack. 

    I’m sorry to hear that. Then again, the only common element in all of your encounters with intimate acquaintances is…you…
     
    And when real live penises are involved, there is unfortunately real live sperm and the possibility of real live disease to worry about.

    Indeed.  And damn, when real live vaginas are involved there’s that whole thing with vaginal secretions and diseases…damn be all. Its time to cauterize the stump of humanity!

    Who pays for testing and contraception? Not the men, I’ll tell you that.

    Hmm…I know plenty of men who pay for contraception, testing, and so forth. So much anger…and lack of rationality based on that anger.  It saddens me that your little girl is going to learn hatred at such a young age. 

      

11. amy 11

    P, I spent a long time agreeing with your view, and being annoyed with the idea that either sex is nicer, better, kinder, anything-er than the other. I thought it was offensive and reductive.
     
    Alas, experience proved to me that it may be stupid and reductive, but it’s also true. Not just my own experience, but the experiences of the dozens and dozens of people I talk to and whose stories I read. You know what? The nicest, most responsible men I’ve met agree. They shrug, they don’t like it, but they agree. They see the other guys around them are, by and large, dogs, and they feel bad that women have to put up with them.
     
    I maintain — for no very good reason beyond wishfulness — a belief that there are scores of genuinely good men out there. I just haven’t met them. The ones I have met? Here’s a nice man, a high school teacher, a dad, a coach — who ran from his marriage, leaving two boys to whatever, and is financially irresponsible (and blames others for it). Here’s a lovely man, a professor, who’s given his children the best, married for a quarter-century — and he runs around on his wife, and has spent her retirement out from under her. Here’s a columnist, a critic, a devoted father — who kills himself after a long history with alcohol. Here’s a social worker who’s so sensitive with children, what a nice guy — who’s violent and smears his ex-wives. I could go on for a year. I’d think it was just me, except all you have to do is get online and hear the stories. It’s not just me. It’s a very common refrain. I don’t believe the women are making these things up; I’ve seen too much for that. The post-divorce stories alone scare your hair off your head.
     
    What really shocked me most, when I got back into dating after marriage on the far side of 40, was the furious anger among middle-aged men. The violent resentment at not having made a mark, at feeling their youth slip away. If you want to be a target for these men, be a successful and self-confident middle-aged woman. I understand now why young women need protectors and mentors in academia and corporate life. The middle-aged men who feel it all slipping away are vicious, and they’ll hit as hard as they can. Because the very worst thing they can imagine, at that point in their lives, is being beaten by a girl. This is why I say I don’t envy men. It seems to be as deep a thing with them as the inability to have children is with women. 
     
    The men also are happy to go on ad-hominem rampages when they don’t like what’s been said. Like yours above.
     
    Meanwhile — no, men do not notice what needs doing. This is one of the roots of the vaunted Housework Wars. The men claim they just don’t notice things, and the wives end up with the work of managing and nagging and pointing out things to do. After divorce, the men keep on not noticing, which is why they don’t know who the kids’ doctors and friends are, what they’re doing in school, whether the clothing’s getting too small, etc. Go have a look around. It’s not just me. And I think it’s generally accepted that one of the benefits of having a wife is that you’re likely to do less terrifically stupid stuff. In my ex’s relatively mild case: Brewing beer with an industrial-scale propane-fired kit in the garage next to the gas furnace directly under our daughter’s bedroom; buying a motorcycle; walking away from health insurance. Small potatoes next to other stupid things women stop their men from doing.
     
    As for why women tend to get along better after divorce? We help each other, that’s why. Men come out with no friends, and they have trouble being friends and helping each other. Women just do. Married or single, I find it makes no difference. We cooperate, we think about each other and our needs. We quarrel and make up, we love each other, we do for each other’s children. I wasn’t born with sisters, but I feel like I’ve got a dozen of them now. I can’t begin to express my gratitude to them. At this point I’d welcome being gay, but I don’t seem to be wired that way.
     
    Am I angry at men, period?  I’m highly annoyed, and definitely wary, which doesn’t mean I won’t give a guy a chance. I do routinely. Innocent until etc. But I really don’t see why I shouldn’t be angry. Every serious obstacle I’ve hit in my life, and every long-term thorn, has come from a man’s selfishness, violence, greedy self-regard, and shocking thoughtlessness. And I’ve seen more children hurt by these things than I want to think about. I’ve learned to play the game and hit back hard. I have to, as a breadwinner. But it’s terribly depressing and it makes me wonder what’s wrong with these people. Am I surprised at the one-in-five-women-raped stat, no. No, I’m not.
     
    So yeah, I’ve had to do some serious reassessment of what it means to be male v. femaie. I try to keep these things to myself, and talk up my daughter’s dad to her. I can’t stop him from behaving like himself, though, and she’s a very sharp kid. She sees. I can’t agree with the things she says — for one thing, she goes too far, I think, and for another I’m legally obliged to support him, and for a third I don’t think it’s good for a kid to be down on his or her parents. But the other night we were having some girl talk about what kind of man she should marry, and I said, “….oh, I hope he’ll be good and kind to you, and really be interested in what’s important to you, and not take himself too seriously, and have work he cares about and does without being pushed –” and she said,
     
    “That sounds like a lady. A very hairy lady.”
     
    And I had to laugh, because she was right.

12. Evan Marc Katz 12

    Amy, I agree with much of what you’ve said. I simply disagree with your ultimate conclusion. Your negative feelings about men will largely keep away any good men, just like a bitter middle-aged man will not be attractive to a woman like you. So while I wouldn’t even argue with all of your anecdotal evidence, it just seems to me that you should seek out the men of integrity that exist (surely, it can’t be ALL women) instead of railing against selfish and clueless men. It would be impossible for your gender to be the only one that’s interested in kindness and commitment. I know far too many happy marriages – but then, maybe that’s just who I surround myself with.

13. amy 13

    I know some happy marriages, too. But I’ve learned not to scratch them, because too often I find that…no, they aren’t. In shocking ways. And again, I think some of this is to do with age, and time for things to go wrong. It’s a funny thing, and the longer I watch marriages, the more I wonder if it just isn’t a strange and unnatural state, particularly with long lifespans. The very most successful one? You know that part in Annie Hall where he stops the happy couple walking down the street and asks them about the secret of their success? Yeah, like that. And they are, i think they’re really content. I think of another one — a doctor/housewife marriage, beautiful kid, I thought it was terrific until they unwittingly got on a plane and had seats right in front of me. The woman was in all-out psychotic screaming rage, you know, it was all very ZOOL. The whole family seemed painfully accustomed to the experience. The guy finally noticed me and nodded, and none of us ever mentioned it afterwards. Will they stay married, I wouldn’t be surprised. The guy’s parents were survivors, and I don’t think it’s in him to let go easily. She’s entirely dependent on him, so she won’t go.
     
    I remain hopeful but, end of the day, realistic. Do I understand why men have so much trouble keeping just themselves together when I manage myself, a house, a career, and a child? Plan for the future, and all that? No. Do I understand why so many of the bright, hot, and talented ones are nuts and destructive, no. (I actually do spend most of my time on the brainy stuff and sex, so yeah, it matters. I feel very fortunate to be able to live this way.) Why self-pity and rage are mixed up in such a dangerous way in so many men, no. But I accept these things as realities. Just as I accept that the right one is the right one…but that even cities come and go.
     
    I have one piece of good jewelry, a ring. It’s massy, it’s precious, and it’s also beautiful, made by a designer whose reputation was well-earned. He’s dead now. I first saw his work when I was 20 and broke, and said that if I ever got married, I’d get one of his rings, because they were the only ones I’d ever seen that i’d be willing to wear my whole life. I got the ring when I was 32, though in the end I didn’t marry the guy.
     
    I wear it every day, and every day it’s pleasing. I’ve yet to find another piece I’d want to wear like that. If I lost it, i just wouldn’t wear any jewelry. A few years ago, though, in the shock of my divorce, I wandered into a jewelry store to window shop, and went upstairs to where they kept the good stuff. I was admiring a necklace when the owner came into the room and asked me if I’d like to try it on, and I smiled and said sure, but I couldn’t afford to buy. Well, he put it on me, and it was beautiful, it was for me. Sapphires in all different colors, teardrop-cut, in a white-gold mesh. How much, I said, and he said twelve thousand dollars. So I laughed, and said that was out of my range. (By about $11,950.) Today, he said. Maybe another day you’ll come and buy it. And that’s right, that’s the right attitude to have.
     
    I look up at the wall, and there’s an empty spot where my ex took a couple of his pictures six years ago. When I find the right thing, it’ll go up there. Till then, the wall doesn’t hurt anyone being bare.
     
    Is there love out there, sure. I’ve been in love too many times, since childhood, not to believe that. I don’t believe things like that happen for half a life and then suddenly stop. But I also know that there’s a certain sadness that comes with it now, because I’m old and experienced enough to know the score. I don’t think I’ll have that beautiful naive romantic hope again. I can’t not see that a man is frightened, or weak, or a liar, or irresponsible in a way that says he’ll happily use me. That he’s not going anywhere, that he’ll blame me for his life. Or, most of all, want me not to see all these things. I also know myself and what I want and don’t want. So I count it very unlikely that i’ll live with a man again before my daughter’s grown; her childhood comes first, and besides I suspect my tolerance for living with other people tops out at one. Afterwards? I’ll tell you, I don’t know. Someone up there, Helene, I think, pointed out that women generally outlive men, and that’s true. Women end up the caregivers, and it starts happening fairly early. In the home stretch it can be devastatingly exhausting. Do I want that? I took care of a sick man for a few years, and it’s not something I’m inclined to do again. It’s all a long way off, though. In the meantime, I do what I can to make sure my retirement’s secure on my own, and that my daughter won’t have to look after me unless it’s important to her to do so.
     
    About integrity and sex: I’m sure you’re right. And two of my closest friends, old college friends, are men — one’s an old boyfriend who did me wrong and then worked hard for a year to get the friendship back. Do they do right by their families, I think so. They certainly work hard at it. Neither marriage has been easy (and I appreciate their wives tolerance of their ongoing friendships with me). But I must say, I think it would be very hard work, being married to either of them. They both need quite a lot of propping-up and managing, both have bossy wives who do the job.  Apart from that…gosh, I’ve been sitting here racking my brains, and…I’m sorry, it’s not happening. Men of integrity. Many charming men, many men who’ve been serious and talented in their work, men who’ve done me favors, men who’ve stood by their wives, men who wanted to be good but were scared…but it’s incredible how many were either courting me or wanted to confess things gone horribly wrong in their lives, their marriages. I remarked on this once to an old boyfriend, and he said, “You’re smart, and you’re not fat, and you look like you really like sex.” Oh. 
     
    Phew. It’s late, and I’ve got stuff to do — thanks for the correspondence. I think I’ll leave it at that.

14. Gina 14

    I am 50 and have been married and divorced twice. Although the relationship that I have with my boyfriend is far more rewarding than either of my marriages ever were, getting remarried at my age would not be worth sacrificing my financial well being over, as I have substantially more assets than my boyfriend. Linking myself to him legally, would but a strain upon me financially. 

     

15. Nadia 15

    I think the article was biased toward marriage, regardless of the statistics. And  I’m all for marriage so I have no real beef about that. I work in a primarily female industry and meet women constantly who have real peace with their single lives as they move into their elderly years. The article doesn’t properly reflect them. They aren’t worrying about dying alone. In fact, they don’t feel alone due to their strong social networks. Whether their husbands have died before them or they’ve divorced, they seem to see marriage as a phase of life that they’ve accomplished, and now they’re on to the next.  I draw strength from these women that marriage isn’t the panacea. It’s just one option for moving through life.

16. Karen 16

    Wow. Amy’s responses are so well answered and contemplative and whilst people might not agree with her viewpoint, I admire the way she responds thoughtfully and with dignity to comments directed at her and never resorts to personal insults, which many on here, including the host,sometimes resort to. You should have your own blog Amy, I for one, would tune in.

17. Dawn 17

    I  certainly agree that it is FAR better to be single…then in a bad marriage. People often ask me if I would get married again. Yes! It was not the marriage that was the problem, it was the relationship between my ex and I that was the problem.
    I too believe there are men out there that want the same things I do in a relationship…however, I have yet to meet any of them who are single, or for that matter, close to my age.  Since my divorce I have dated more younger men because they seem to be the most interested in ME…and they have not yet been “damaged” by a bad relationship. 
    When male friends ask me why I date younger men…I tell them that most of the men I have met (and I do know there are more good one’s out there) seem to be bitter about relationships.  They hold back…they have decided NOT to give completely to a relationship because it failed before.  I even spent 2 hours with one man talking mostly about how he decided OUR breakup would go…and this was our first date!! Really??? Ugh.
    So, I continue to search out the right man for me…And I learn something from each one I meet in the mean time. I am learning about myself, and I am learning about men.  Dating has definitely taught me that men are as different as women are.  
    Thanks Evan!!

18. Evan Marc Katz 18

    I was also going to recommend that Amy get her own blog, Karen, but for different reasons than you mentioned. She can have followers who agree that there a no good men out there. And I will have followers who think that there are good men out there. Her followers will remain happy being single and my followers will be happy in their healthy relationships with men. The choice is yours.

19. Margaret 19

    @Amy:  Much of what you say resonates with me.  Yeah, you try to remain positive, but the fact is there are many factors working against women over 40 finding an available “good” man.  Not the least being men’s predilection for younger women, addressed many times by Evan. Your posts are very well thought-out and respectful.

    On another note:  Am i the only 50 year old woman here who has no sex drive?  I did go through the big M at 48, so I am sure that is the factor.  Sorry guys, sure you don’t want to hear about this.  Troubling as it is, it is almost a blessing in dealing with the lack of a man in my life.  

     

20. P 20

    @Amy

    Part of the problem I see right now coming from your point of view is that you seem to be displaying a remarkable lack of insight. You speak very eloquently, but in general when I see someone applying a generalist approach to a complex problem such as gender politics and relationships between the genders I tend to find a lot of resentment over specific issues in their life which are driving a very sharp-edged sense of confirmation bias.

    Both men and women are prone to doing this, but women even more so in my experience. This is because women are taught very young to be consensus builders, and as such will confirm each other’s points of view with an emphasis on maintaining the individual relationship rather than the real emotional and/or mental health of the relationship partner. Thus, there’s a built-in mechanism for confirmation bias right off the bat.

    In addition, people tend to surround themselves with others that have similar viewpoints, attitudes, and problems. This tends to create tunnel vision…a rather narrowed view of reality which when looked at on the micro scale reaffirms their world-view and misses the macro view which is a much better and truer picture of reality.

    Amy, you speak of men by saying such things as “why self-pity and rage are mixed up in such a dangerous way in so many men”…speaking like you are familiar with enough men in the entire world to make such an assertion. I’ll even give you super-credit and say that you are intimately (not sexually) familiar on a regular emotional and mental basis with 1000 men. That’s impressive for anyone. Yet, even with that familiarity, you enjoy a viewpoint that consists of only 0.0006% of the male population of the United States. If you consider the world, then you’re looking at only 0.000033%. Representative sample? Not even close. So you say your friends support similar views or have similar stories. Of course they do…you’re going to gravitate towards those who have similar viewpoints and similar examples to support you. You’re going to remember the incidents you see which you can use to build your case, and ignore or forget the ones which don’t. I can say from years of experience in my field and countless open-eyed analysis that for every case you can come up with demonstrating bad relationship behavior in a man (or simply bad behavior in general), I can give you the same behavior in a woman. I can see that because I’m not biased in the way that you are. Everyone has bias to some degree, but you seem fresh with wounds that are dictating a very locked-in bias…which is sad in many ways.

    You made an interesting statement, referring to men, in your last post: “Do I understand why so many of the bright, hot, and talented ones are nuts and destructive, no.” Sure you do if you really think of it. Its the same reason why so many of the “bright, hot, and talented” women have self-destructive psychological traits. You see it in our popular culture all the time. In this society, “hot” is going to be the more operative word in what you wrote because, unfortunately, our society right now values that above the other two traits. Though you mentioned the other traits…it was interesting that you made sure “hot” was in there as well, giving definition to the type of man you’ve tended to look at in your life. Someone with ALL THREE traits. In this society, being “hot” gives one a lot of attention.  Being all three–an overwhelming amount. For both men and women, having this attention…having this constant affirmation of “greatness” gives one a sense of entitlement, and (again unfortunately) dehumanizes others who have lesser amounts of these qualities. Being a “good person” becomes less important because the incentive to develop such a trait is not there. We put up with a lot from someone who has those qualities…although we shouldn’t. Therefore, those people who possess all of them either consciously or unconsciously realize this and are therefore able to “get away” with having a personality like a plugged toilet.

    My point to this is: If you are look at THAT demographic of men, or even some subset of them that incorporates this, then OF COURSE your point of view is going to be skewed radically. Your (and your friends’ experiences) are going to be colored by a particular subset of human beings.

    I think it would be absolutely beneficial for you (although I’m not sure how that would happen in an honest setting) to hear what men have to say about you, and their perceptions of you. I think you might find it interesting and instructive and might put some things in a different light. I wish I could invite you to meet the people I know, both men and women–you might be surprised at how different things can be when you aren’t locked into a particular world-view.

    One final note: Do you think its possible that the reason so many marriages seem so dysfunctional might have to do with the criteria people are using when picking mates? That they are projecting ideal qualities onto partners that, when they become human (inevitable), results in disillusionment, resentment, and the unhappiness they feel? Do you think perhaps that it isn’t some innate quality of MEN that is the problem (or women for that matter) but a social and psychological selection process that has been made out to be ideal and followed religiously, but in reality is flawed and ultimately unworkable?  Perhaps, just perhaps its not the men and women that are the ”problem”, but our own expectations and projections onto others which creates an illusion of love that is prone to cracking and coming apart, rather than true human bonds that are accepting and nurturing from both sides, which works together towards overcoming obstacles rather than pointing blame. Just some food for thought. Amy, perhaps it isn’t the men you know that are the problem…perhaps its your selection of men and the ones you choose to know that is.

          

21. Evan Marc Katz 21

    Thank you, P, for having the patience to say what I would have said if I weren’t so tired from saying it every single day. Those were my sentiments exactly.

22. Michael 22

    I’m not convinced that most people are at peace with growing old alone and happily single into their senior years.  In my experience most people want a connection with another, someone to share their happiness, sadness, hopes and dreams.  Clinically its healthy to have someone to speak to on a regular basis.  Human touch and intimacy all lead to a healthy mental outlook on life and add years to ones life. 
    As for a means to that end, marriage may not be the vehicle, it does have some troublesome financial and social issues if the relationship doesn’t ultimately workout.  However, in the last couple of years, I’ve worked with many people over 50 who are seeking long term relationships, even marriage and are making the changes necessary in their lives to find the right one. 
    I think “happily single” is a “current state” issue, having more to do with circumstances than desire.  Its like asking someone if they want more money, of course they do, as long as they don’t have to do anything unpleasant for it.  I see “happily single” as kind of silly, since what is the alternative? “Unhappily single”?  Most people strive for happiness even if not currently in a relationship.  Doesn’t mean they’ve chosen to remain single for the rest of their lives. 
     
     

23. Karen 23

    @Evan
    Why do things have to be so absolute with you? I enjoy reading what Amy has to say but don’t have to agree with all her sentiments. I know both good and not so good men so am happy reading about both!

24. hespeler 24

    From my personal experience, I do see the point that Amy is making regarding women faring better after divorce.
    My ex-wife is re-married with a kid while I still struggle to find someone and remain optimistic.  And yes, there have been some dark moments because of a lack of support from friends and family.
    I’ve also seen it in my dating experience with divorced women.  Most (not all) speak of their former marriages more like a break-up than a divorce. 
    As a matter of fact, I recently spoke to my ex-wife and I told her how much I’ve struggled the last couple of years and she pretty much told me how pathetic I am.  Unreal.  She went from the women who adored me to regarding me as pathetic and self-defeating.  And no, I did nothing to scorn her like cheat or anything like that.

25. amy 25

    I’ll point out that both P and Evan are saying (repeatedly) that my problem is I’ve surrounded myself with the wrong people. In other words, it’s my fault, and if I’d only done something right I’d agree with them that men are basically awesomesauce. I believe they call that one blaming the victim. I notice too that they’re a bit deaf to the women here and elsewhere who echo what I’m saying.
     
    We’re not saying there are no good men, guys. We’re saying there appear to be few. If it takes this many women this much hunting, wonderful men are not thick on the ground. And I’d wager that if you stacked up men and women, you’d find fewer good men than you’d find good women. That imbalance matters. Starkly put: No, there won’t be a good man for every good woman. Not only that, but for some women the hunt will be so expensive it’s sensible to question the effort, or even to leave it alone.
     
    P, if what you said was true re numbers, you wouldn’t take so much as an aspirin, because we wouldn’t have clinical trials. If you do some stats reading, you’ll find out why small samples are acceptable. I’m not, incidentally, saying my samples are anything but accidental.
     
    As for bright/hot/talented — actually, I do find a puzzling difference between men and women in that regard. I’m in arts in nationally-prestigious circles (and most arts in this country have very small, fickle audiences, so public adulation doesn’t really come into it much unless you’re big on cardigan-wearing retired women who’ll comprehensively misunderstand your work but find it “inspiring”). I don’t want to try to explain the correlation, but you don’t see a lot of “bright and talented” without “hot”, by which I mean not just sexual attractiveness but conventional good looks. And the men, baby, are in general a hot mess. Why? I don’t know. Are there nutso women, sure…but so many more of them are not only mothers but good mothers; they’re far more disciplined, they do their work, they have property and manage it. The straight men have women-groupie-wives who mother them, raise their kids, and take care of everything so they can go do their genius thing; the women…yeah, there are a few with banker-daddy husbands. What I see i more often is that the women manage all their own stuff and are either childless or raise their children. There are alcoholic women in these circles, but most of the alcoholics are men; the men are just more reckless, more apt to say “screw it” and throw things away.
     
    The women fret, and they can be bitchy and neurotic and irrational, and at high levels they’re dangerous turf-fighters. But destructive..on the whole, no, not so much. They just aren’t big babies, put it that way. Why this difference when the men and women hold the same day jobs? I’ve no idea. But, again, I accept it as a reality while remaining hopeful that outliers exist for me to meet. In the meantime my sense is that the men just aren’t made as well as the women. I find that — on the whole — women are psychologically much more stable, know themselves better, handle setbacks and illness *way* better. I mean they’re very tough, tougher than the men. And maybe in a marginal, tough racket like arts that’s what makes the difference.
     
    P, you want me to hear what men have to say about me. Well, I beat you to it. Men usually find me scary and tell me so, and explain when I ask them why. The digest version’s that they like to have some bullshit room, and it freaks them out to be seen through consistently. At our age, they’re not too excited about my being in better shape than they are physically, and they — you know, I’m hard to keep up with, I’ve done a lot of different things, had a lot of adventures, I work really effing hard and know what I want, and the head doesn’t often turn off. I get “force of nature” a lot. (Keep in mind here that I spend the vast majority of my time at home, either doing my work or taking care of my child. We’re not off the excitement charts, here.) I’m also impatient if a guy makes like he can play and then it turns out he can’t — that happens all the time, a guy comes courting and is fronting like crazy. So the men are admiring but say yeah, never in a million years, you’d eat me for breakfast. Which is fine. They do respect and like me, though, and if he hasn’t been a louse to me we get along.
     
    I have had a few complain that I don’t need them. I respect that this is a real thing for them, but it’s totally not my job or place to make them feel necessary. That’s up to them. Because yes, it’s true, I’ve lived decades without them, and I could likely go the rest of the way without them, too. If I’m with a guy it’s because I want him, not because I need him.
     
    There’s also a contingent of men who get ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS at whatever I’m saying or doing. Some will come back years later, admit I was right, remind me what I was right about (it’s long gone from my head), and essentially tell me I shouldn’t have put it that way and pissed them off so hard. I also get married men who apologize to me for men.  They say, “Yeah, it’s gonna suck for you, and it shouldn’t be that way, because you’re amazing. It’s just that men suck. I’m sorry men have hurt you.”  And I say, “It’s not so bad.” Then they tell me about how nothing they’d be without their wives, whom they give hard times and shouldn’t. I think it must be a real problem for men.
     
    Here’s what the men who wind up in my bed say: “You should have someone better than me.” They’re right. And if I knew such an available fella, I would. It’s nice of them to say so, though. There are also men who’ve been through the fire in their 50s, 60s, who wince at my emphatic nature and find it childish. Chide me for it. Totally guilty there. There are great virtues in calm, quiet, openness, subtlety, humility. I tell them I expect I’ll calm down & broaden with age, but for now, this feels like where it’s at for me, and I don’t fault them for not sticking around for it.
     
    In the end, I totally don’t blame a guy for wanting ease and comfort and admiration. I think most people want these things. But that’s not what I’m for, unless he’s a peculiar kind of guy who finds what I’ve got comfortable.

26. amy 26

    hespeler — friends. Friends are crucial. Men have trouble sometimes being friends together, but if you find local mixed-sex groups to do with activities or social services, you’ll find people, women especially, who’ll help draw you in. They may not be the people you’d want to hang around with forever, but they can help you get to feeling stable and part of society after work’s done. Is there anything around you? I know that here, anyway, the local social-services needs are so great with the rotten economy that volunteers are welcome. It also feels good to feel like you’re doing for others.
     
    Biking and running groups are also big around here, and they’re pretty long-lived.

27. Lynn 27

    @Michael
    You are misinterpreting what I meant by “happily single.”  I clearly explained that I would like to be happily married. What I meant is that while I am single, I am happy. Believe me there ARE “unhappily single.”  If I can’t find someone to be happily married to, then I would choose single rather than trapped in an unhappy marriage. It’s a matter of being happy as a person in whatever status you are in. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t prefer to be married. It doesn’t mean we aren’t actively looking. And just knowing the benefits of being married, doesn’t make it happen. It still takes time to find that person, or they may never find him or her.

28. Evan Marc Katz 28

    Without knowing you, Amy, all any reader can see here is that a) you’re full of yourself, b) your “no-bullshit” policy is probably somewhat tactless and insensitive to others, c) you don’t care much about what men need, d) women are simply superior – kinder, more together, more creative, “anything men can do, women can do better”, and finally, e) you take no responsibility for any of this, except for one nod at the very end about humility.

    You’re clearly an impressive and articulate woman and I have little doubt we’d find much to talk about in real life. But your sweeping and negative generalizations about men, your desire to fight these kinds of battles, and your failure to realize that anyone who dates you will never get the ease, comfort and admiration that HE desires pretty much explains why you’re single – moreso than the fact that 99% of men suck and aren’t worthy of you.

    I sincerely thank you for your contributions, wish you all the best and hope that you find a man that makes you happy. But, as you said, if men are pathetic and they routinely find you scary, it may be somewhat challenging.

29. Evan Marc Katz 29

    Oh, and Karen? I allow Amy’s long dissents on my blog. I’m not the one who’s making absolute generalizations about men. And I even acknowledged that much of what Amy saying has a basis in truth – I just strongly disagree with her conclusions. So what, exactly, is “absolute” about me? And what is there to learn from a “men suck” perspective? What man would ever devote himself to a woman who fundamentally seems to look down on his entire gender?

30. Lynn 30

    Something that I don’t think anyone has mentioned about the number of women remaining single is this:  A matter of numbers! In the U.S., there is a disproportionate number of single men vs single women! More women are available than are men, and the older the age group, the worse the number difference grows! I’m not meaning to discourage anyone (including myself) from finding a good man, but I am pointing out that it’s not a matter of “very few available good men.” There are less available men in general for the number of us women! Simple math.  At least that’s one factor behind the growing number of single women.
     
    In regard to the views that there are practically no good men left… I just have to say, as a woman, on behalf of men, that it’s very unfair to judge them all as a group! When women are stereotyped, it makes me so angry, because often, I DO NOT fit the generalization! How often do we hear things like, “Why do ALL women do……?” As women, we don’t appreciate that kind of statement, and it’s just as wrong to judge ALL men or NEARLY ALL men the same way!!  My opinions are not such because I’ve not had bad experiences with men! On the contrary! A large part of my life I spent with bad attitudes toward the “males species” in general because of bad experiences with my father, brother and more…. I likely  kept some good men away, because I gave off such a negative and attitude unintentionally. Finally in my mid-40′s, and came to a point of changing my thinking about men, forgiving the ones that had hurt me, and really trying to understand men and how they think… what makes them “tick.” Now I actually LIKE the males species in general. I think the good, decent ones are in the majority. Unfortunatatly, it seems that the  number of available ones have dwindled as I’ve reached 50.
     
    There is NO PERFECT MAN out there! Neither is there a PERFECT WOMAN! What I DO believe is that there can be a “perfect match” for us – a perfect match of the good and the bad in each of us…. So that we help each other grow into better people just by being the person that we are. Setting out to “change” a man isn’t the thing to do. I wouldn’t want a man to marry me, not knowing he’s thinking of how to change me when we’re married. That won’t work on a man either, and I don’t blame them for not liking that!
     
    Whew!! This is a hot topic…. Thank you Evan for your blog!
     
     

31. P 31

    Amy, I’m not sure why you’re tossing me in with “fellas”…but, I presume your biases lead you to make assumptions.  This is clearly pointless–you’ve made grand, sweeping decisions about men, confirmed your bias with your limited surroundings, and I see no point in continuing this with someone so close-minded.  As Evan said, good luck.

32. Dawn 32

    It’s unfortunate that this dialog with Amy seems to be shutting everyone else out…
     
     

33. P 33

    Oh, and Amy, I’ll bet you my Ph.D. that I understand statistics much better than you do. Your retort about clinical trials was clever, but not relevant. Clinical trials are accomplished using controls which reduce variables, and random sample sets. Your “clinical trials” of men are contaminated by your bias and by non-random sample selection. Please review your methods accordingly.

34. amy 34

    “You’re clearly an impressive and articulate woman and I have little doubt we’d find much to talk about in real life.”
      Thanks. And I agree, I think we’d get along like a house on fire. (Though that last post of mine…er, a little inarticulate, there, careful editing’s a plus.)
     
    I never said that 99% of men suck. I said that a good man’s hard to find, a sentiment not exactly novel. And I said I bet there are more good women than there are good men, which, if true, sets up a very real problem. Maybe expressed best, and with irritating anomie, by the hot, talented, bright, and waaaay too young guy who stayed over last weekend: “I don’t think people get married anymore.” (Sorry, whoever said above that she only dates younger men. I feel super-uncomfortable in the teacher/lover role, and there’s only so many times I can bite my tongue before “you’ll understand when you’re older” pops out.)
     
    Do I care much about what men need…um, yeah. I do. Because they’re half the species, so it’s important. Do I feel obliged to provide it? No. I don’t see why I should. I take care of myself, and a whole lot more; why can’t a man take care of just himself? I don’t get this “men need something, therefore women should provide it” pov — where does that sense of entitlement come from? And this supposed punishment: “Well, then you won’t have a man” — um…okay? So wait, I’m missing out on having a needy guy live in my house? I already have a person here who needs things from me.  Only when I do what she needs, I’m also teaching her to, someday, be an independent person who can do for herself, and someday she’ll go off and largely do that. She’s itching to already, which is awesome.
     
    I mean look, when I’m in a great relationship, what we give each other besides hots is just about the deepest friendship I know. It’s love. It’s not about…I don’t know, the basic business of getting by. Catering to psychological needs best attended to by us ourselves. If being with me makes him feel great, then that’s terrific. But “be a particular way, do a particular thing, because I need it”? That kind of creeps me out. I wouldn’t ask anyone to do that for me.
     
    As for “women are simply superior – kinder, more together, more creative, ‘anything men can do, women can do better’” — look, man, you just can’t argue with experience. Not just mine, but the experience of the dozens — hundreds? — of other women I’ve talked to over the years. I mean ship some kind, together, helpful men out this way, and I’ll happily reassess. Until then — it’s women who call and email and ask me how I’m doing, if I need something, if my daughter can use something. Who remember an emotional tone in a bit of conversation and come back to it two weeks later, asking if something’s going all right. Who remember to include my daughter. Who are there to watch her if I need to go out of town. Who take care of not just themselves, but their husbands, psychologically, in a crisis, and who catch their marriages before they fall over a cliff. Shoot, I don’t even support gay men’s initiatives anymore. They come calling around, and I say okay, when’s the last time you did something for the women’s center? You want my help, but I don’t see any coming back the other way. And they mumble something about focusing on one thing. Well, go get your petition signed elsewhere, then.
     
    It’s not like I set out with some a priori “women are the awesomest” idea. My closest friends before marriage were almost always men. But I find that now that i’m into the part of life that involves responsibility for other people, it’s totally women who come through. And that, unfortunately, the “helpful man” is generally the “macking man”. And, again, that my experience is widely echoed. In fact it’s very much changed my assessment of my man radar. I used to go around thinking that gosh, I must just be a terrible judge of character, I keep getting screwed over by men, I’m going only for lousy ones, maybe I’m damaged somehow and there’s something wrong with me. I wish women would stop blaming themselves this way. Yes, there are obvious mistakes out there. Stay away from the alcoholic, the guy with the restraining order, the one who blames everybody in his life for his troubles. But if most men are just not so terrific — and a healthy proportion flat-out appalling — then the problem ain’t you. The problem is you expect Chanel and you mostly got a ride to Filene’s Basement.
     
    At the beginning of this thread, Sarah pointed out the injustice of women being treated horribly by men, then left to raise children and be poor. She’s right, and it’s because we don’t value, with money — that stuff you need to get through life –  the serious work women do as mothers and caregivers. Women do it anyway, day in, day out, and the nights inbetween. While trying to fit their own lives in around the corners. If that’s not reliable, kind, together, etc., then I don’t know what is. The irony is that the only way to get paid in your own name for this work is to get divorced. And that, to me, is pretty screwed up. 
     
    Here’s what I think is your killer question, Evan: “And what is there to learn from a ‘men suck’ perspective?”
     
    I think that’s a totally awesome question. Just for the moment, assume it’s a valid perspective, though I’ll modify it to “most men suck”. Well, so what are you going to do? You can…
    …focus on tracking, defining, and aiming yourself at some imaginary set of non-sucky men, trusting that it’s real, in which case perhaps you ought not be open-ended about it;
    …ask yourself if you really, really, really can’t be gay and make things easier on yo’ ass;
    …question whether this whole enterprise of finding happiness with a theoretical man might not be off in some way;
    …ask if there are things in life that also make you happy and are not men;
    …ask yourself a serious set of questions about what sex from men and the usual “manly things men do” are really worth to you, how important they are and why, how replaceable or irreplaceable they are and why.
     
    I think it opens things up kind of amazingly on the distaff side. On the men’s, there’s a serious question: If most men suck…well, why? Is it necessary? Can we get babies and tall buildings and space expeditions and overpriced restaurants without all these problems? Also, what is with this king-of-the-mountain business — is it sociobiological, nothing they can do anything about even though it makes everyone, including themselves, miserable and anxious, or is this a case of men just hazing the hell out of each other for no good reason? Can the sucky men learn something from the non-sucky men, or is it a biological thing, built in?
     
    I think it’s a terrific, terrific question.
     
    P, re samples, I think I already dealt with that.

35. Laine 35

    Amy,

    Whatever. Now back to War and Peace   

36. Gina 36

    @ Dawn #32 – I totally agree. I would like more readers to address the fact that many women and men 50+ years of age have created a certain degree of financial stability for themselves, and may not want to jeopardize that stability by getting married. These women (such as myself) enjoy the companionship that comes with being in a happy and committed relationship, but do not want to be tied to our partners financially, nor do we want our income (which could be used towards building our own retirement) to be used to help support our partner’s children (I don’t have any children) from their previous marriage(s).

37. Lynn 37

    I feel like I have wasted my time and effort posting my thoughts and insights on this thread. I imagine other people feel the same. One person’s posts and replies to them, have completely hijacked this worthwhile discussion!  The rest of us would like to be listened to, too!

38. Ellen 38

    I knew someone would KICK AS* on Amy for her views, which btw, are pretty widespread imo.

    Amy wrote: What really shocked me most, when I got back into dating after marriage on the far side of 40, was the furious anger among middle-aged men.

    I have experienced this too, Amy, but not for the reasons you describe (THAT behavior- the man hating being beaten by a woman seems more prevalent among younger men in my experience). No, in the last three years of online dating I’ve met lots of men over 40, particularly over 50, who were still very angry with their exes and scared as hell about aging, running out of time.

    In my experience these older women described in the NY Times article have weighed their options and decided a man wasn’t worth it. My late Mom used to say “Why marry again? I won’t be a nurse with a purse”. And she was right. She lived to be 92 btw.

    I stay in the game ’cause I take bioidentical hormones, and well, still want a sex life, companionship! And I’m still a bit of a romantic, deep down. Have all this love and few to share it with- intimately anyway. For reasons I won’t go into, I doubt I can rely on my children in my old age (wouldn’t want to anyway) so the idea of having a live-in lover still appeals to me). It doesn’t bother me much he would probably pre-decease me!

    I am NOT afraid to be alone however, and have made my peace with it. My grandmother lived 30 years after her husband died, my Mom about 12. We are all Steel Magnolias down here. lol

    So I soldier on and “soldier” it is often. It’s difficult, frustrating, annoying dealing with middle-aged men often. It’s why I dated younger for two years before that, too, became annoying in other ways. Just glad I recently met a keeper (I think, hope and pray). This keeper btw also takes hormones!

    Finally, I refuse to do this (online dating) another year frankly….

    No, study after study is now showing men take longer to recover from breakups for the reasons Amy describes- not enough men have strong social networks like women.

39. Zaq 39

    @amy

    Women are superior to men ? – give it a rest.
    You, Amy, are a prime example of what men find so frustrating in women.
    Women are NEVER satisfied. You know the saying “women marry men, and hope that they change, men marry women and hope that they NEVER change”.

    How on earth is it possible for one gender to be “superior” to another ?
    Our DNA doesn’t know about our value systems. It just produces men and women with a behaviour system most likely to result in the DNA being passed on to other generations.
    Unfortunately for men, women are hard-wired to be attracted to the finest examples of the male gender. They only have so many eggs, so they are picky on who fertilises them.

    If a woman is attracted to hot,tall,intelligent, successful, witty, empathic and communicative men, then it stands to reason they are going to be very thin on the ground. One in a hundred thousand.
    “good men are hard to find” you say. Indeed such men are.

    Men want a woman who is vaguely pretty. Plenty of them about.

    Women do not find the average man to be in the slightest bit attractive, and so most of them have to settle. They also allow their ‘feelings’ to be the ultimate arbiter.
    I loved the OKCupid study that showed that women found most men to be significantly below average in looks. It didn’t seem to occur to them that it was impossible for most men to be 3 out of 10.

    This probably leaves most women constantly dissatisfied with the opposite sex.
    Small wonder then that most divorces are instigated by women. 

    So are men inferior to women ? No, but many women PERCEIVE them to be.
     

40. Ellen 40

    sorry for the double post, but Amy also wrote: As for “women are simply superior – kinder, more together, more creative, ‘anything men can do, women can do better’” — look, man, you just can’t argue with experience. Not just mine, but the experience of the dozens — hundreds? — of other women I’ve talked to over the years.”

    I wouldn’t go that far ’cause I still try to see people as individuals first. And women HAVE had a little to do with that- recently young mothers are finally being told “let the man parent even if you perceive it as imperfect. He needs the experience and he will bond with the child faster”.

    Meher Baba, whom I follow said something fascinating once. Said women in the West were more spiritual than the men – in general, but in India, in the east, it was the opposite- the women were more materialistic. ! lol

    And re friends I agree with Amy. I have lots of male friends, cherish them, it’s just that God help you if you have to date them. Then a whole another side of them comes out I’d just rather not deal with frankly.  If you are not perceived as “the one” they just pretty much treat you like total crap in my experience, or subtly, which is worse.

    Finally, let us women vent some, ok? Even goodmanreport.com is getting across the message to men (FINALLY!) that they need to validate the woman’s point of view, not label it as “emotional” or “illogical” all the friggin time. The term is “gaslighting” , as in the Ingrid Bergman film (her husband, in an attempt to have her committed or killed (can’t remember) accuses her of being paranoid and mentally ill).

41. P 41

    Evan,

    I actually highly doubt you’d get along with “Amy” based on the fact that you seem to be someone who takes reason and logic seriously. However, that would be for you to decide of course and you do seem to have a knack for tolerance. I’m just not sure Amy’s line of reasoning deserves much tolerance given that its roots are based in bigotry.  

    I’ve been thinking a lot about this, and her latest commentary really hit the nail on the head for me.

    We’ve all seen this argument and line of reasoning before, in great detail. 

    Throughout history, people have created psychological environments which support an argument and are used to dominate or suppress another group by proclaiming their group is superior or “better” in some way. We’ve seen this along racial lines, nations, and among the genders.  Its bigotry, plain and simple. What’s REALLY interesting to me though from a psychological and sociological standpoint is:

    Amy’s arguments are an almost a caricature of identical arguments that have been used for thousands of years in support of the supremacy of men. 
      
    There’s a lot of study going on about this right now, with various sociologists noting that an environment is being created in some social circles which supports this reversal and thus creates the environment which supports the argument. (e.g. a group is continually told they are weak and lesser–from a psychological standpoint, that group will tend to begin to act in the way which supports this assertion).

    Look back through history and the numerous and various writings which have been done by men pertaining to the weakness of women and the “superior nature” of men.  What you will see is a set of reasonings that are almost identical to Amy’s commentary. Reasonings that include logical fallacies being used to describe the emotional weakness and destructiveness of women. Women’s lack of drive and attention to detail. Women’s inability to use logic and determine proper reasonable courses in life. Women are emotional creatures and ill suited to run world affairs properly. Women’s relationships with other women are fraught with competition and distateful strife.  Women are prone to actions based on feeling alone and incapable of dealing with life’s responsibilities. Womena are fragile and easily decompensate under emotional duress. The list goes on an on in these writings.

    Take Amy’s commentary, and replace the pronouns for men with those for women, and you have historical (and unfortunately, sometimes present-day) commentary made about women almost verbatim. 

    Amy’s commentary is now truely fascinating to see from this perspective. Right up to and including the almost obligatory reference to last week’s “conquest” making some sort of passing comment in support of the dominant reference:

    “Maybe expressed best, and with irritating anomie, by the hot, talented, bright, and waaaay too young guy who stayed over last weekend: ‘I don’t think people get married anymore.’”

    I can almost see male writers of past making note: “Just last week as my nubile mistress and I settled into our tryst she noted how grateful she was for my stability and purposefulness of nature.” Note this statement and the fact that it includes an element of sexual dominance in it by the reference that Amy acquired for herself a young sexual object for the weekend. The statement didn’t need to include any reference to this and could have been said that she knows a young man who doesn’t think people get married anymore. Instead, referenced in the way that it was, it gives off a clear message of sexual superiority, dominance, and conquest.  These types of references have been used by men for centuries as proof that women themselves were believers of male superiority.

    These arguments laid forth by men for many, many generations were wrong, horrifying, and infuriating to women.  Just as this line of reasoning laid forth by Amy and various factions of radical feminism is also wrong, horrifying, and infuriating to men. No argument of this sort has ever done anything towards the advancement of humanity in general, creating nothing but painful and damaging power systems that divide us and prevent us from seeing the complementary nature people can supply for one another. Both applications of the superiority argument use numerous logical fallacies, and as such are flawed from the beginning and nothing but progenitors of resentment, anger, and outright destructive conflict.

    And, directly to Amy: No…you haven’t dealt with the samples issues. You ignored it. Please see the logical fallacy known as “biased sampling.”

      

           
            

42. Evan Marc Katz 42

    Sorry, Lynn, but people respond to whatever they want to respond to. And since Amy’s comments were so verbose and provocative, it did, in fact, end up taking over the thread. Writing with exclamation points isn’t going to make people listen to your insights.

43. Evan Marc Katz 43

    @amy #34 – For what it’s worth, I know you’re getting pilloried for some of your statements, but I do appreciate you making your case with your own facts and logic. I may not agree with your conclusion, but do believe that you’re a bright and worthy adversary who knows how to have a disagreeable conversation without personal attacks. And, on this forum, that says quite a lot. Thank you for the dialogue.

44. Ruby 44

    The fact that so many women are staying single isn’t surprising to me. As my married friends tell me, keeping a marriage together over the course of many years isn’t easy, even with marriages that start out strong. Since women suffer more financially after divorce, it sounds like a lot of women are risking that for the emotional benefits of leaving a marriage that is stagnating or unhealthy. 

    Many divorced men don’t seem to me that anxious to remarry; maybe many divorced women feel that way, too. Again, not surprising given that the rates of divorce for second and third marriages are even higher than for first marriages, which for baby boomers has risen to 40%.  

    Traditionally, men have a much wider age spectrum available to them in dating, and some older men focus on younger women. Also, older women outnumber their male counterparts. So I don’t think that women are choosing to be single. Even if they leave an unhappy marriage, most divorced and still-single women would like to find a partner, whether they remarry or not. 

    According to the article, younger people have far lower rates of marriage than their elders as well, so we’ll be seeing even more aging singles in the years to come. I just hope we have the safety nets in place on both financial and social levels to accommodate them.

45. P 45

    @Ellen

    No, study after study is now showing men take longer to recover from breakups for the reasons Amy describes- not enough men have strong social networks like women.

    There is some validity to this. However, it needs to be looked at contextually. Making sweeping statements that this is one piece of “evidence” that women are superior (kinder, gentler, etc) than women is simply logical fallacy.  In fact, a case could be made (which would also be a logical fallacy used for demonstration) that the opposite is true: Men have more issues after a breakup because they are more emotionally invested in the relationship and therefore women are colder, “meaner” and better able to simply “shut down” their feelings towards another person.  Is that argument valid? It uses the same type of logic…flawed logic, but its the same.

    Let’s look at why men have fewer supportive social connections, and let’s use history, sociology, and psychology to understand it, rather than claims of innate superiority of a particular gender. Historically, men did have complex social support networks–in many ways more than women did. Today, we live in a transitional time emotionally for men.  Men are expected to invest more emotionally and display more in an emotional context. However, some of the same previous ”roles” for men are still in play.  There’s still a demand for men to be “independent”…there’s a social and psychological stigma that goes towards a man who displays ”weakness” or emotional vulnerability.  Women push this as well–its not simply internally generated on the male side alone.  Think of the arguments that have taken place on this blog about the “alpha male” and his desirability. Men are taught, very early on, that they should handle their own problems, but at the same time are being taught that for successful relationships they need to be emotionally vulnerable–to women.  Men are, for the most part, taught NOT to be emotionally vulnerable to other men.  This is a product of our sociological psychology, and both men and women equally are responsible for this.  It does NOT imply an innate superiority or inferiority to either gender as is being inferred. 

    And re friends I agree with Amy. I have lots of male friends, cherish them, it’s just that God help you if you have to date them. Then a whole another side of them comes out I’d just rather not deal with frankly. If you are not perceived as “the one” they just pretty much treat you like total crap in my experience, or subtly, which is worse. 

    Ah…this artifact has more to do with how differently people treat “romantic” relationships vs. friendships.  The comparisons are not entirely valid in the context used, or in how they are being applied towards men.  How many times have we seen references to the fact that people will do things towards a romantic partner that they would never contemplate doing towards a friend?  That, in essence, is part of the problem I see with our methodology towards pair bonding today.  We project all our ideations, aspirations, expectations, and dreams onto another person, then respond with resentment and anger when that person turns out to be just like us: A flawed human being.  We expect a partner bigger than life subconsciously…someone that will make us happy by providing everything we want.  The results are as expected.

    This issue isn’t a male/female or male/female superiority one–though its often used in that context.  Similar issues happen in homosexual pair bondings.  An example of this is the high rates of domestic physical and emotional violence between lesbian couples, to use an one involving women. When confronted with this, most friends of said partners involved in such things have no idea that their friend could act as such.  Similar things are often said of individuals involved in heterosexual relationships where such activity occurs. 

    The point I’m making here is that you cannot compare friendships with romantic relationships–although you should be able to if people took healthy approaches towards said relationships in general.  Currently, we place them on different planes and therefore create different sets of expectations which therefore result in different sets of problems.  The problem isn’t male vs. female…but each of us as individuals.

    Finally, let us women vent some, ok? Even goodmanreport.com is getting across the message to men (FINALLY!) that they need to validate the woman’s point of view, not label it as “emotional” or “illogical” all the friggin time. The term is “gaslighting” , as in the Ingrid Bergman film (her husband, in an attempt to have her committed or killed (can’t remember) accuses her of being paranoid and mentally ill).

    Let’s take a step back here.  I don’t think anyone is proclaiming that Amy is emotionally or mentally ill, by current diagnostic methods.  I certainly am not..but I am deeply concerned by anyone who makes sweeping generalizations proclaiming an innate superiority of any group over another without a real understanding of what is going on, why its going on, and the external factors involved that they themselves are a part of.

    Venting can be a good thing…if done constructively.  Most people don’t do this, however.  In many situations, venting can quickly turn into a witch hunt, as group-think takes over…creating, in essence, a mob mentality.  Continual venting, without constructive methods of addressing such complaints, leads to generalized assessments such as the “superiority” issue being touted here.  What is needed is more effort towards understanding, and less effort towards developing a new, and equally flawed power paradigm.

    @Evan to Amy
    I may not agree with your conclusion, but do believe that you’re a bright and worthy adversary who knows how to have a disagreeable conversation without personal attacks.
      
    I’m going to disagree here and say that Amy IS engaging in a form of personal attack–its just on a broad scale. She’s attacking an entire subset of the human species (males) and proclaiming her (and her gender’s) superiority over them. Its going to be personal in that respect to any male. Ask any WOMAN who has lived with the arguments for male superiority if she feels it isn’t personal when said arguments are being told to her by a man who believes them, and therefore believes her (personally) to be an inferior being.
     

46. Carrie 46

    Wow….what a discussion.   Pretty crazy stuff.  I personally believe it’s up to the individual and what they ultimately want and feel comfortable doing for them.  We all have a story behind our decisions.  I love what Margaret said…that since going through menopause she has no sexual desire.  I am right there with ya sister. Would be nice…but not like when I was younger and there was a longing for intimacy in that way.  Ellen…love the reminder…that we older gals are…Steel Magnolias.  I know alot of older women who are absolutely content without a man or being married to one.   I would have loved to stay married but it didn’t work out that way.  Second marriage done and over.  That was very sad.  I am open to meeting someone but I am not going to worry about it or try to go online or join a club or be in the “right” places to meet someone.  I am going to just live.  I don’t have a huge circle of friends but enough.  I have a job that I am not in love with but keeps paying for my mortgage, thank God.  My son is healthy going to school and my family are wonderful.  I am pretty content.  Right now I want more of a career, that is what I am concerned about now.   Back to the subject, sorry….men are wonderful people.  Like in everything there are good and bad.  Being concerned about who you are and how you are contributing to making the world a better place should be of concern at any age really. As I aged my needs and wants changed.  I grew wiser and much stronger.  These are good things.  Ideas and feelings I wish I would
    have had in my 20′s.  We get so distracted by the fun shiny things of life and when they aren’t there think life is horrible.  There is so much more to be and have in life…it’s where your priorities are.     It is so sad to hear the deep hurt and scars that are left by other people.  Really very sad. Time to rise up out of those ashes and make your life, whether partnered or not….count! Love to all.

47. Helen 47

    amy, I enjoy reading your viewpoints even when I disagree with the basic conclusions. 
     
    You seem to make the presumption that people should know when you need help and offer it, and because women do this more than men, they are superior. I would say that women are more acculturated to offer help unasked, but that it is not because of a difference in kindness between sexes.
     
    My experience has been that whenever I ask men (including my husband) for help, they almost always (nearly 100% of the time) help. In fact, I can only think of one example in my life when I asked a man for help and he said no. Every other time, the men give and give and give, and almost never expect something in return except for appreciation for what they did.
     
    amy, you have more control over your relationships with men (including non-romantic ones) than you realize. If you want something from them, ask for it. You may be surprised at their generosity. Ask with an expectation of receiving, and both you and the men will benefit.
     
    I will mention the caveat that I don’t mind asking my husband’s help for things around the house, nor do I mind asking my male colleagues for help in professional settings. But I rarely ask other women’s husbands for help with things that aren’t strictly work-related, not because I think they won’t help, but because I don’t want to inadvertently offend their wives. That is why, in general, when I need help, I prefer to ask women than men.  That is not something to blame men for, though – no one really deserves blame here. It’s just respecting boundaries.

48. Evan Marc Katz 48

    Forgive me for browsing my own website, but any time I hear stories about how there are so few good men out there, I remember that I have probably 1000 client testimonials from women who found amazing men.

    Check out this page and see if you’re still a skeptic about the ability for people to find love: http://www.evanmarckatz.com/coaching/group-coaching/focus.php

    My guess is that if you don’t believe these women are truly happy – or believe that their relationships are ultimately doomed to failure, you probably won’t believe that anyone – myself included – is truly happy. Which says more about your worldview than it does the reality of the happily married people out there.

    EMK

     

49. Lynn 49

    @Evan #42 Evan, I realize people can respond to who they want to, and this is the reality of posting on the web. I could have gone without making my comment in that regard, I admit. However, your comment of “Writing with exclamation points isn’t going to make people listen to your insights” is rather uncalled for! (Yes, I used an exclamation point.)  I’m just an expressive writer and try to use a variety of things, such as punctuation, bold face and few capitalization here and there to convey my written thoughts.  I do believe my thoughts and insights are worthwhile, and just wanted to share them. BTW, I was standing up for men and fairness.

50. Joe 50

    Lynn touched upon this briefly in her #30 post.  But I’d like to point out a certain fallacy that helene referred to earlier.  Yes, it’s true that there are more women than men, at any age, and that the disparity only increases with age.  However, it’s a fallacy that the average man is going to die at a younger age than his wife.  IIRC, mortality rates indicate that a woman who survives to her 50s or so is likely to live only 2-3 years longer than a man who survives to his 50s.  Yes, it may be harder for a woman that age to find a man to marry, but it’s false to assume that a woman who marries at that age will be a longtime widow.

51. Laya 51

    Amy-

    I don’t post often but I read regularly. I think your posts have garnered a lot of responses because while it’s a distortion of the truth, you can see that there is a lot of pain and frustration underneath. I too am a single mom and have received much of my support and help from the women in my life. My father, however has equaled any woman in my life that has helped including my mother. I think men help in different ways probably culturally based. I have had men who were strangers help me carry my Christmas tree to my car as they saw I was struggling with it (kid next to me), picked up my dropped bags, open doors for me, stopped to help me when my car broke down or have given me free towing (tow truck driving by), and plowed my driveway without even asking (my neighbor). I think there are a lot of good solid men out there. I have dated online for close to 10 years. While I have met some good men, I haven’t met the right one for me until now. I think. We started dating 2 months ago so we will see. He demonstrates all of the signs of a good guy. He is surprising me with a get away weekend this weekend. I have no idea the destination.

    Amy, I would suggest you seek therapy. I did and it made a big difference. You are ultimately harming yourself and your ability to find a good man with your distorted view of men. You seem like a genuine person but genuinely a little lost in your relationship with men. Best of luck.
     

52. miskwa 52

    hEvan et al.
    I would agree with many of the previous commenters that many of us older women are single not necessarily by choice. That said, as awful as it often is, being alone is much, much preferred to being with someone who cannot or will not respect you or shares your core values. I live in a small mountain town where there are virtually no men or women who share my values. I am a seriously educated, very physically active and fit environmentalist currently living in a town that worships mining and has very tolerant views about drug and alcohol use and abuse. There are no older, single, educated and healthy men here except the handful that I work with. yeah, lots of people say to “settle”; however, settling for someone you cannot feel anything for causes both you and them incredible pain. I have been on numerous dating sites and can agree with many of the other contributors that the pool of available men that share ones values and take responsibility for their health is dwindling. I find about one man in 250 that may be relationship material. They do not want to live here. I am not saying that the guys who are marginally employed, looking for someone to raise their kids, are uneducated, overweight, etc. are not great matches for someone, but they are not a match for me. I look at men up to 25 years older than myself (51). Many of the older women in my community have settled for men that had problems or have dated married men due to a lack of other options. I do not think these are good choices. Some of my women colleagues have become bitter and now hate men, I do not wish to go there either. Most of my fellow educated women, the running community, the artist community, have left. I have been told I should leave too. That means I would have to take a job that pays half my current salary, bail on my mortgage, lose my retirement that I put up as collateral on the home loan, and no longer care for my dad. Since I am a cancer survivor, I may not get health insurance at a new job. Also not good choices. I probably have to work 8 more years before being able to retire unless property values go up significantly. Its not like I am just sitting here doing nothing: I farm at 10,000′, I run ultramarathons all over the west, I folk dance. If there were a lot of men in this region (Colorado, New Mexico, Utah) that shared my values I woulda found them. For a lot of us older women, it sucks. I once had a wonderful 12 relationship that I had to leave to take a job that had health care, retirement etc. I did not want to make that choice. It makes it hard when you know what a good relationship is, should feel like, your choice is now bad or nothing. Like it or not, neither demographics nor social values are favorable towards older women.

53. Zaq 53

    Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, and Adam said one day, “Wow, Eve, here we are, at one with nature, at one with God, we’ll never age, we’ll never die, and all our dreams come true the instant that we have them.” And Eve said, “Yeah… it’s just not enough is it?””

54. Ellen 54

    My situation was somewhat similar to miskwa 52 in that I am an oddity here despite the area not being exactly a backwater. (super well educated, excellent tennis player always in search of a partner, liberal values for the most part, well travelled).I am one hr. from two incredibly sophiticated Southern cities. Still, I am an hr. away which is the key fact here….

    I would sugget to Miskwa to try a long distance relationship. Seeing a guy you care about once every six weeks or so is better than having nothing at all. BTDT, it’s hard, but can be incredibly romantic. I really think, too, the long distance relationships are easier when you are fully mature, 50+.

    What has also helped me is I am only two generations from the less educated, but still genteel Southern upbringing. So when I date a “good ole boy” I can relate to him ’cause my grandfather was (though I never met him). But boy! was my grandma a “good ole girl”. A can-do gal if there ever was one.

    So Miskwa, try to see the man’s soul, not the outer trappings. Lots of men are a bit rough on the outside, but true gems on the inside. Plus you’ll learn a lot. I’ve told my new bf I want to sail, fish more, try skeet shooting for the first time, etc. He also has a blind wolf as a pet, which is pretty cool. Oh, and an IQ of 150 though a solid Southern accent* (wish I had mine back but lost it at UofM unfortunately). Former mechanical engineer. Just my two cents hun….

    *the lovely Northern snowbirds who toured my mother’s townhouse last night let slip “…and we never expected someone so intelligent”. I just smiled. At one time my town’s aristocracy sent their boys to Oxford for their educations.

55. Katarina 55

     I am in my mid-forties and at this time I choose to be single.  I am a single parent of 2 wonderful children who will graduate this year – top of the class – awesome kids.  I left their father when they were 5 and promised them that I would not get married (or co-habitate) until they graduated. 
    Why? Because too many times I have seen my male friends and females friends (and family)just jump into marriage after the first and sometimes have even MORE kids.  It is my personal opinion that if you have children and you are divorced, your responsibility to raise the children first and foremost in non-distracted atmosphere.
    My daughter recently said to me, “Mom, I am glad you chose not to get married.. it would have really messed up the dynamic”.  It is true, she really said that. Her friends have so many step- & half- siblings that they are in a constant state of flux.  Parents are always arguing.
    My ex was not the nicest person.  I used to describe him like this “He would stick his foot out and trip you, then blame you for not looking where you were going”. Nothing was good enough and he was one of the laziest people I have ever known.  He now sits at home unemployed at the bottom of a bottle.  He hardly sees his kids –his choice, not theirs.  My ex-boyfriend, I met him when we were both married.  I was headed for divorce and got a divorce.  I told him that if he wanted to see me, he would need to be unmarried, because it was just wrong.  A month later he shows up and says “I filed”. I was surprised – truly.   A year later he was divorced.  I never wanted to get married and he was OK with that.  We saw each other a lot but not much when the kids were around.  This was a good thing – went on for years.  He did a lot of home improvement projects.  Until one day someone mentioned something to make me suspicious.  I checked a few things. He wasn’t divorced – no, he never even filed.  As I took a look back – yes there were signs, but I was so busy raising my kids that there were times when I wouldn’t see him for a few days or whatever and that was OK.   This ended almost 4 years ago.  So there you go, my 2 major relationships were with men that were awful people.
    Does that make women any better? No. Did I make stupid choices? Yes. 
    I have dated a little since then. But nothing much came of anything – but I guess I didn’t want it to.  I am so busy, and my crowd  are all married.  It is slim pickins for me.  Does it get lonely?  A little. But I would rather be lonely, and admit I am lonely, than live a lonely life with someone. I have a high sex drive, and so self gratification is necessary -  but it is NO substitute for the real thing.

    These past 4 years have been some of the best of my life.   I have about 20 gray hairs, I do killer work outs 4 days a week and run when the weather permits. I still have my looks I am told.   I look great and feel great.  I fit into my kids’ jeans! (No, I do not wear them- I have my own).
     I admit I have trust issues.  The kind of trust issues that make me think “he doesn’t really care” or “what does he want from me?”  But I have hope.
    Now that my kids are headed to college soon, I am looking forward to a real relationship – and maybe marriage.   I am glad I chose to wait. I highly recommend it. 

56. amy 56

    Evan: thanks for that link. I totally get you now. You’re that guy. You’re the smart one in high school whose head was exploding because all these girls were flocking to huge jerks (rather than smart and less huge decent guys) and getting crushed by the huge-jerk wrecking machine and then getting up and going back for more punishment, oh my God why. Because you could totally see how this was going to go and how the guys were using these nice, even smart, but inexplicably wacked-out girls. And then they’d come back to you for tea and sympathy, but take off to go do it again. Now that the girls are 30, 40, 50, they’re coming back and saying “Ow, that’s not fun anymore, help me Rhonda,” only now they have money and will pay for the help, and you now have a business.
     
    And that is awesome.
     
    So I see where you’re going with this, and essentially you’re telling women that they’re deluded about what they want, which in many cases will be true. In fact what they want is a sweet guy who…you know, he’s not a hero, he’s not off to shake hands with the King of Sweden, but he’s got a job, and what he really wants to do is come home to someone every night and be nice. And have someone be nice to him. That’s it. Maybe a garden, a vacation once or twice a year, dinner out. Those guys are out there in droves. Their marital crimes will be petty, the worst it gets is they screw up financially and are afraid to tell, or they have a desperate supply-closet affair and feel horribly guilty the whole time. I think the advice you’re giving for finding a simpatico one of these guys is spot on. What these women really want is to be married to a guy who wants to be married. Your program isn’t about falling in love: it’s about how to be happily married.
     
    I bet a very healthy chunk of your clientele finds that yes, in fact this is what they wanted. Domesticity. They didn’t really want things to be hard; they just got handed the wrong catalog, the excitement-cruise one, and thought they were supposed to want it. The spinal adjustment to being a sweetheart is, in the end, minor for them. And the rest of your clientele…well, you know, their guys will, like the rest, subside from courtship to being, y’know, guys. Ordinary guys, homebodies. Minimally verbal. Kinda pissy. Well-behaved but kinda dependent. Occasionally a nice surprise. Responsive to honeydo lists. Inarticulately, genuinely grateful that the woman’s still there and tolerating them, admiring of them, also wishing sometimes that she weren’t there. They’ll wear a C-PAP mask after the woman bugs them enough about snoring and heart attacks. (Sorry, I’ll stop.) And it turns out that domesticity isn’t what these women were genuinely after. They wanted a wondertwin, or a hero, or a prince, or whatever. So that’s where I say: Okay. You don’t want domesticity with an inoffensive guy. Obviously you’re not likely to find what you really want in a guy. Can you — to be crude, for a moment — can you decouple what you want from the dick, whatever it is you’re actually looking for? Because it’s plain there’s something you hunger for in your life, something that’s central to you, but I’m thinking that it’s not necessarily a guy, even though you might truly enjoy the company of a guy sometimes.
     
    It’s interesting that there are so many older women not marrying now. I tend to look at myself as an outlier, then find no, I’m pretty much in the gen-x swim. But I think that there’s a much broader sense now, for women, that they can live however they please. I remember there used to be an old-maid stigma: gone, as far as I can make out. Living arrangements seem much more…Californian. So yeah, you really can say, “Nurse with a purse, mm, no.” Or even, “No, I do not want another man napping on my couch.” And I think this is what that’s about: these women want something, but in the end, it’s not a guy. Not a husband, anyway. The husband turns out, per Maureen, not to be necessary. I’m aware that this makes plenty of men nuts, but…well, that’s not so much my problem.
     
    The lonely, unloved, untouched, hysterically active portrait…mm, I don’t find it applies, maybe because I’m a mother. Kids love you so incontinently that you feel ashamed to take it all. I mean I’m aware that I got the best kid, but still…it’s wonderful. I don’t meet a lot of non-snuggly children, either. They’re just so hilarious and demanding. Sexual touch is another thing, but gosh, that’s not hard to come by. Thrilling, yes, if you find the right man, but you can’t do that all the time. Not for years. You’d lose your job, you’d forget to pay your taxes.
     
    I do think that painting the hen parties — the women keeping up the girlfriend social round — as sad is not just unfair but retrograde. I think there’s this image of sad waste, barrenness, that it drags along, but I just don’t see the need to live in that. After living on my own, raising a child on my own, for years, it seems like someone else’s idea: I’m going to waste because a man isn’t loving me. If someone genuinely feels that, then that’s what it is, but otherwise…meh. Who is this wonder without whom I’m moldering in a box? It seems to me I’m alive anyway. And I never, ever expected it of myself, but a continuous highlight of my week has been sitting and talking with the women at shul after the kiddush. For hours, while the kids play. It’s so nourishing. And it’s gone on for years. It was like life support when my daughter was a toddler; now…it’s just great, it’s like a spa. And it’s funny — I wind up feeling guilty, like I’m taking too much from these get-togethers, but then the other women confess to me how much they need them, too. So it’s great.
     
    (I will admit to crazy-active, but I look forward to the day, about nine years from now, when I go off-duty, and relearn what 8 hours’ regular sleep is like.)
     
    Anyway. I get now what you’re doing. But here’s what I think, Evan: I think you’re getting this OMG you-hate-women reaction over & over because you’re not only laser-focused on results, you’re laser-focused on results that not everyone wants. A woman shows up, says she wants love, and isn’t doing what you see will ***work***, and it makes you a little nuts. Because you’re like, “Oh my God, what more do you want? I’m showing you what will work! This isn’t about you and your identity, this is about effectiveness! You’re still you, just do these things that aren’t hard! No? Fine, you love pain, you’re all messed up and miserable and confused. Be that way.” It’s a very guy mode — totally the mode of that high-school boy whose head is exploding because the girls are doing these irrational things that lead to unhappiness (and also, coincidentally, not fireworks with him). 
     
    In other words, I think you’re being a little binary in all this. Yes, the women want love, and they don’t want to be maltreated. Not all want marriage. They may not even know this. It may turn out that the love or whatever that they seek isn’t something that has to come from a man, either. They may not know that either. Is it work to find out what you want if it’s not something that’s well-defined by the time you’re five years old, yes. Yes, absolutely. But I think that if you say, “Okay, you’re resisting me like hell here. Maybe marital bliss is not actually what you want. Maybe your job is to find out what you do want, and I can help you with this — or I can’t, but here are other people who might, or maybe no one can and this is something you have to do alone — but in any case you’re going to have to look at opening up your categories pretty radically, because the ones you have now leave you at dead ends,” this goes over better than, “I know what you want, don’t be an idiot,” or “Fine, you say you want love but you spurn my advice, you’re an idiot condemned to misery.”
     
    You might say, “Well, what’s the harm in trying? Try what I’m suggesting! Find a good guy, get married! Maybe you’ll like it!” Okay, Bubbe. The harm in trying is that it’s not 1940. The price of failure can be very steep, and not just for your client. Children come from marriages, even temporary marriages. Consider the scenario I laid out for Karin. That’s intensely painful, long-term, and damaging, and uncommon only because most women aren’t in the high-powered spot in marriages.  Custody fights are ridiculously common, destructive, and expensive. Lives are…well, disfigured. I’ve gotten off relatively light, but I’ll spend the prime of my life in a place with few job or romantic prospects because my daughter’s dad’s family is here. Yes, legally, I could go, but for what? It’d wreck her. And by and large it’s the women who’ll pour energy and time into managing the unpleasantness that goes on in the decades after divorce to see that the kids come out okay. It’s not good for health, career, finances. I know of nobody in the world who wants to be locked in battle with a stepmom, but if you’re an ex-wife with children, you may not have any choice about that.
     
    So if a woman is saying “I don’t dig it” to your method, maybe what she’s saying is, “I don’t dig this life you’re imagining for me. Something else is for me.” And i think there’s good reason to back off and try another tack, rather than running her down, accusing her of masochism or man-hating or lemon-sucking or whatever.

57. Evan Marc Katz 57

    Another extraordinary well-written dissent, Amy. I’m not even going to argue with most of it. I will simply point out that if the life you desire doesn’t involve a romantic relationship with a man, that’s okay. I don’t judge you one bit, whether you believe that or not. I just don’t understand why you’re turning to a dating coach’s blog, since my advice is for women who ARE looking for that kind of relationship.

    It’s like I write a blog about the virtues of steak and you’re the vegetarian who tells me that my tips are irrelevant to you. Fine. Then go find a veggie blog.

    Honestly, nothing you wrote is particularly offensive or even wildly inaccurate. But you nailed one thing, for sure: I’m very focused on results.

    And when someone tells me that she doesn’t want to sleep with her boyfriend until marriage, I’m going to let her know that this considerably narrows her dating pool. And when someone tells me that she’s upset that men are too interested in sex, I’ll remind her that this is universal and that there’s nothing that she or I can do to change the male gender. And when someone tells me that she keeps on dating emotionally unavailable men, I’ll tell her to stop wasting time on selfish guys and start considering men who make a consistent effort to treat her well.

    So yeah, I go nuts. Why? Because most of this is virtually unassailable in its logic and its effectiveness.

    If YOU think women are better than men and YOU’D rather be a great single mom with a rich single life than to make the necessary compromises to be in a safe, healthy domestic partnership, that’s YOUR prerogative. I’m not saying that you’re bad. I am saying that your way of thinking is not conducive to what MOST people come to me for: to learn how to have successful relationships with men.

    You’ve eloquently stated your case, Amy, but you haven’t taught our readers a thing about anyone but YOUR preference to be alone.

    My job is to teach women about how the good, bright, relationship-oriented guys (such as myself) think.

    So, I thank you for your genuinely entertaining contributions to my blog, and I will go back to the women who actually believe in my help and worldview. And if that means that I inadvertently alienate all the women who don’t want my help and don’t want the kind of relationships I’m describing, I’m 100% comfortable with that. You’re not my clients, anyway.

58. amy 58

    Miskwa and Ellen —
     
    I think your stories are not uncommon at all. By midlife we’ve made a series of choices, and if we’re bright and brave, the choices often take us into adventuresome territory, far from large groups of people who’re very like us. Or we keep going till there just aren’t many like us, period. So then if we’re single, we’ll likely stay that way, for very practical reasons. We want to be able to retire. We have children whose needs trump ours. And the “oh, just pick one!” advice isn’t such a good idea, because habits, values, education matter. I’ve learned not to fight those things. I’m not particularly liberal anymore, but I find that many of the 40s/50s never-married men with whom I get along are sort of ferociously pink. I’m not interested in their politics, but they have aneurysms about mine. And, well, if it matters that much to them, then they’re right, we’re not a match.
     
    Unfortunately, the LDR’s a risky thing, not just because men prefer to find someone local, but because of the sort of story Katarina tells. Imagine how much less you know about a man when you only see him every six weeks. You don’t know his friends (you don’t know if he has friends). You don’t know who he lives with. You don’t know what he really does for a living, whether he’s an addict of some sort, what the story is with his ex-wife. Assuming she really is an ex-wife. You don’t know who he’s diddling in the meantime, what microscopic presents he’s bringing you along with romance. And there are all sorts of reasons why men strike up online/LD romances — boredom, sport, the thrill of the forbidden, the chance to prove something. So I don’t think you can expect sincerity.
     
    It’s easy to say that a woman is full of herself or blinded by self-importance when she starts talking about how much better-educated etc. she is than the men around. I think it’s a dodge. I’ve met few men who’re genuinely content, over the long haul, with the lower rank. I didn’t know it till after we divorced, but my ex had never actually gotten past his bachelor’s. (He made out like he was on a PhD track and dropped out with an MA, and why would I go checking his transcripts? Fact: no PhD program, no MA. One semester in the MA program.) In the end, I think it’s the habits and values that led to the disparate ranks that really cause the friction. Are there some who bridge the gap easily, yes, but I think it’s actually pretty rare. 
     
    At this point I don’t look for men who haven’t got a good professional degree or doctorate, or dropped out of a prestigious PhD program. I actually don’t care about the degree and have no interest in getting a doctorate myself — nothing there looks useful or enjoyable to me, they teach some terrible habits, and I think the academy sucks. But at this point, most men of a suitable age with enough drive and brains for me will have either dragged themselves through these horrible programs or have gotten into top ones, seen how awful they were, and dropped out. 
     
    On the other hand, I have a friend who found her husband on Match. List of what she wanted: tiny. She’s sweet and kind, she lives to make community, she’s all about her family. Yeah, it’s interesting…Evan’s market, his success stories, are the “you thought you were Miskwa, but you’re actually Amy’s friend” segment. And this feeds into an old narrative about telling women what they are. Because we’ve always gone to Miskwas and said no, no, you’re really this other kind of woman. And in the last maybe 30 years, we’ve spent a lot of time telling girls, no, no, you’re really Miskwa. The reality? I think there probably are a lot more Miskwas than ever, because now it’s so much easier for a woman to get there. Plus the STEM academy has incentive to push girls in that direction. But I think in the process we’ve generated a lot of confusion, and that the consequences of relative isolation have come as a big surprise to a lot of middle-aged women. 
     
    To me it says we have to do a better job of laying out the map for young women. Saying, Here are probable paths, and here’s where they lead, and here is how happiness is found and not found along them — today. Young women can’t possibly be expected to sort through and choose with any serious foreknowledge, but it’s no small thing to know what other roads are out there and have a sense of where & how they go. Or to understand that things change, and change, and change, so you want to keep your penknife and canteen handy.

59. amy 59

    @Evan: Sorry for hogging the bandwidth. I actually can’t remember how I got here — I clicked on an old link and said oh yeah, wonder how that one’s going? And here I am. But I think dating, marriage, sex, all these are, you know, big general concerns.
     
    I love romance. I love sex, I thoroughly dig the male/female psychosexual drama. Wowie! It’s at the core of most every story, isn’t it? And why shouldn’t it be? If you believe the biologists, we’re here to mate, multiply. And there’s nothing in the world like love in all its variety. But I’ve found I’m really not interested in marriage and domesticity, I’ve got too much else going on. Maybe when I’m 70.
     
    Anyway. Apart from being generally annoying, I think what I’ve been doing here is opening things up in a way that may be intensely aggravating to you right now, but I suspect will help your head and your business eventually. (This is a side-effect. I’m doing this for my own thinking, not for you. Even so.) Because I’m talking about women’s experience, amplifying and arguing with things other women are saying, in ways that go across the grain of what you’re trying to do. And I suspect that if you listen to this stuff — me and others less windy — it’s going to open your head up about what women are actually after and what you can do as a coach.
     
    Or maybe not. Because I think maybe your business is predicated on your understanding men, not women. You understand what men want, what men are like, and how men use women. All the mines are visible to you, and you can steer women around and get them to the goal. But not steering women takes a lot of patience; it’s a different way of thinking.
     
    Anyway. I think it’s interesting. And I am so unbelievably far behind on work now.

60. Joan 60

    Thanks Evan- As a divorced woman in my mid 50′s I agree that happiness is the key. I was unhappily married for 5 years and decided to leave. Now I am much happier!

61. Curioser and Curioser 61

    You rock, amy!

62. Henriette 62

    A lot of fodder here: in the article, Amy’s novellas and the other responses. 
    I’m a big believer in marriage.  In fact, the reason I find myself in my 40s and never wed is because I think marriage is so serious that I couldn’t undertake it if I didn’t really, really think we could make it work.
    I am also a big believer in pre-nups.  I wouldn’t get married to take financial advantage of my spouse and I would not expect him to do so, either.  I’d like to have it in black and white: I’m not a whore and neither are you.  
    So I find it interesting that so many people are foregoing marriage/ re-marriage and instead just living together in great part, it seems, because they want to be together but not financially beholden to one another.  I’d argue that getting married and having a pre-nup is actually a more secure way to ensure one doesn’t get taken for a ride, financially.  At least where I am (in Canada), living together very quickly leads to common-law which very quickly leads to all sorts of serious financial consequences.  Of course, living together with a pre-nup equivalent would offer similar protection but I don’t know a soul- not ONE – who is living together but has that kind of legal documentation in place. 
    And for those of you who I know will spout off how sophisticated and European it is to ignore marriage and just live together with no sort of legal agreement, I resided in Europe for 10 years and most of those couples who scoffed at my bourgeois suggestion that they get some kind of legal agreement before setting up non-married house together have now split and are going through expensive and heart-breaking court cases. 
    In short, I think those who are living together to avoid the pitfalls of marriage and reap the rewards of easy companionship are fooling themselves.  It saddens me that so many people become anti-marriage after being taken to the cleaners in divorces when, in my opinion, they should just become anti-marriage -without- a -prenup.

63. AnnieC 63

    @P

    Thank you so much for your posts. It is so wonderful to see a person who not only can debate with a rational tone, but more importantly whose posts also hold rational Content. 

    Imo This view that Amy holds, is unfortunately very wide spread. Men do not deserve these recriminations. 

64. Peter 64

    @Amy.  The whole Arty Creative strategy for attracting women is to be screwed up.  A writer/poet/painter who enjoys a pint at the pub with his mates rather than agonized obsession over death, women, God or whatever has a Fail sign over his head when it comes to sexual attractiveness (See J R Tolkein, C S Lewis).  Rock Stars hit the bottle, the dealer or the groupies.  What otherwise is the point of being a liberated artist?  Creative arts are about letting your self indulgence run wild,  Without the craziness there is no drama to produce the novelty.

    If you want creativity without the drama find an engineer (software or hardware).  Engineers are, of course, never hot.  Bill Gates had to become mega rich and also famous before he could date a junior employee.  Maybe Dave Packard was hot when young.  He was tall but Bill Hewlett was always a bit round.  Both were family men.  No mistresses emerged at the reading of wills valued at billions.

    Amy.  Are engineers hot?  Recompute?

65. Peter 65

    @Gina 14 and staying on subject.

    Gina you have a point and not only about money.  Women marry up and not only financially.  By 50+ a woman’s list of requirements for a man starts to get very long.   At 50+ most of the available men have had time to demonstrate their failure to meet these standards.  They are therefore invisible to older women.  The ones who do meet the standards and are thus noticed find it a lot less demanding to seek out a younger woman.  If they can pole vault over the advanced level check list of an experienced 50+ year old then it is no trouble to hop over the requirements list of a woman under 45.  And women of childbearing age are more sexually attractive.  If you are going to have a long check list then make sure that what you have to offer to those who pass it is worthwhile.  At 50+ for a woman it is not sex appeal, although appearance still matters as a guide to personality.  As Thomas Jefferson said “a man after 40 is responsible for his own face”.  As discussed elsewhere, I am probably not in the invisible group.  My dog is in the “vast age difference” fight rather than the overlooked group.

    A man your age wouldn’t think twice about marrying a poorer woman.  It’s not financial caution.  It’s natural behaviour.  Women marry up.  With small variations, women peak in sexual attractiveness to men about 22-25.  70% of 22 year olds can get any man they choose.  Increasingly they don’t choose to their disadvantage as I tell my daughter.  After that, the longer she defers, the less choosy she has to be and the more she has to put on the table by way of charm, style, support for the man’s delicate ego, submissiveness etc..

66. Peter 66

    @  Amy 25.  My experience is “meet a new woman, meet a new neurosis”.

    Any suggestions of somewhere we can meet in a chatroom and exchange broadsides, rather than hog the blog?  I have some comments, generally sociobiological in tone, mostly about age differences scattered around Evan’s blog but I think that you are just mixing in the wrong circles.  Perhaps you like the showing off of insecure people?  You didn’t find out about your husband’s degrees until after divorce?  Nah.  It won’t be the same.

67. Susan61 67

    I am 50, never married.  I still have a fairly strong sex drive but have been celibate for about 3 years. Sigh.  It saddens me but as another poster noted, casual sex at this age just isn’t an option.  Emotionally I don’t think I can handle it so I just deal.  Some people peg me for 40 – 45, and I am petite and in great shape so I still attract men… it’s just that I don’t find any of them attractive for various reasons.  My litmus test is:  do I want to kiss him?  The last man I was attracted to and did have a relationship with dumped me, mainly because I was a mere TWO years younger.  I know his ideal is a woman under 40, he is 52 and doesn’t have any money but he is very good looking so he won’t settle for me – an attractive woman who is just too damn old.  He is divorced and does not want children.  We had tons of passion, a lot in common yet he can’t give up on his dream and he routinely spends time with people 15-20 years younger.  I find this behavior pathetic and confusing but hey, he wants what he wants.  It was the most painful break up of my life…
    I have tried to give the men who are pursuing me a chance but if I still have no desire to kiss them after spending several dates or casual outings with them, I just think…well, what would be the point?  I have plenty of companions and I don’t want to be in a sexual relationship with a man I am not attracted to.  This is why I am still single.  I haven’t ruled out the possibility of marriage, in fact, I still have hope that I might fall in love again and who knows?  Maybe it could lead to marriage.  I do know that I won’t settle for men more than 10 years older than me just to have a partner.  Men don’t want to date much older women, why should I be forced to?  I always remind myself of the good things in my life and that it could be much, much worse.  I have a good life even though there is no man (currently) in it.  As a side note, I do wish fervently I had avoided the sun more in my youth but I grew up in the era when tans were sexy and “healthy”. 
     

68. Michelle 68

    #67, Are you saying you don’t want to kiss them at all and haven’t kissed them?  Or are you saying you kissed them, but the chemistry and connection through kissing wasn’t there?

69. Zaq 69

    #67, I feel your pain. Yes older people are less attractive for both sexes.
    Of course no one is forcing you to date much older men, but by refusing to do so, you have effectively decided to remain single. 

70. Susan61 70

    Michelle, I have kissed a couple of them but I haven’t wanted to take it further.  I have hoped with a couple of these guys that the desire would grow but it hasn’t.  Admittedly, I am still somewhat attracted to the ex who I see part time for work and yes, that is most likely a contributing factor…I have found other men attractive since our relationship ended, but they have been unavailable for one reason or another.  I am considering online dating again (although the thought of it does not excite me, I hate the lack of privacy involved) and I may need to leave the work situation with the ex eventually, am aware that continued contact is not helping matters.  This is complicated.
     
    Thanks Zaq. What exactly do you mean by “much older”?  Are you saying that since I am 50, this is my only option? Once again, just like you and other men, I cannot force myself to be attracted to a person and if he is 10 or 20 years older than me, the chances of physical attraction are less.  Like many women, I prefer dating men who are more age appropriate, who I would have more in common with and who physically would be more my match.  I am in great shape for my age and one of my latest suitors was a 41 year old male.  Despite that, I was not attracted to him.  Attraction is a mystery – it either happens or it doesn’t.  Maybe I place too much importance on this.  If I met a 60 y.o. male who I was physically attracted to, I would date him but this has yet to occur.  

71. Michelle 71

    Got it Susan, I think you have a pretty good handle on looking at this objectively.  I dated a man who I was someone attracted to, and when he kissed me, he was one of the best kissers I had ever been with, so the attraction increased dramatically–which is why I asked if you were giving them a try at least.

    Why is the men we find sexually attracted don’t seem to be the available ones?  It’s a cruel trick the universe plays with us!

    Totally agree about attraction…it’s either there or not.  I have a theory on why 2 people may be more attracted to each other than others, but not appropriate for this blog (no it’s not X rated, but it is unproven and not based in statistics and facts).

72. Ellen 72

    Susan61 #67, I can relate. I am 59 (just turned) and my last ongoing relationship before this one was with a man 17 years younger. We had great chemistry too, but secretly he wanted a younger woman I think. He was probably biding his time with me til he could trade up as he changed his age limit on his profile (which he never closed btw) whilst we were at our strongest I thought (about 5-6 months in, weekend dating, steadily, talk of trips, etc.).

    You’re right- the heart wants what it wants. Or the mind. But the level of denial (of aging) going on- by both sexes as lots of women my age want to date younger too- is just breathtaking and funny really.

    My current bf is my age, about a year younger. All he knows is I am in my 50s- I won’t get specific about age. Told him he could grab my wallet and check if it was a big deal. So far he hasn’t! lol But because I dated a 41 year old for 7 months and other much younger men before him dating my current 58 year old took a little adjusting. Initially he just appeared- old! Which is hypocritical is it not?! But we kept dating and I kept finding him endearing. Noticed on our second date what a great physique he had. On the third he told me he also was on bioidentical hormones (we talk about hormones some! lol). His energy level is the same as mine, better really, as he is on his feet building boats all week.

    It takes some adjusting of your perspective, kissing a lot of frogs before you find that jewel. I haven’t a clue how we will work out, but this is the strongest relationship I’ve had in three years. The best I’ve ever felt, the safest, the most loved.

73. Saint Stephen 73

    Michelle,
    Is no mystery that women are attracted to unavailable/already taken men.
    Studies have shown that women are naturally attracted to a man that a whole lot of other women are attracted to. Though unlike women, men don’t seem to have a  consensus of women they find sexually attractive. Some men like them thin, some like them curvy, while some of us are chubby chasers. But ironically, all women are attracted to tall, dark and handsome.

    One of the studies conducted by Oklahoma state university shows that by having a girlfriend a man’s sexual attractiveness increases by 40%. And he automatically becomes desirable to a lot of women.
    Given my experience i find the studies to be true. Most women get a thrill out of striving to possess the unobtainable man.They secretly desire the man who already has a girlfriend or are holding out for the man who isn’t interested in having a LTR.

74. Michelle 74

    Saint Stephen, I didn’t realize you were an expert on women and that MOST WOMEN secretly desire unavailable men…hmmmm.

    Your ‘study’ almost sounds like it can be a male challenge as well, hespeler’s posts come to mind. 

75. Teresa 75

    Gawd I just love the ageist title the actual title of the article did not include the words “old age”.  In fact the whole thread is so full of ageist stereotypes.  Let me know at what age “old age”begins because I so want to be cantakerous and use nifty phrases like “young whippersnappers.”

76. Ruby 76

    St Stephen

    No, plenty of women are attracted to certain types also. I’ve known petite women who actually prefer shorter men, or blonds (not dark), or whatever. People in general are attracted to those that others find attractive as well. Oddly enough, I’ve known very few women who were not looking for LTRs, at least those over the age of 25. And many of those university studies use younger students as test subjects.

77. Zaq 77

    What ?, I find myself disagreeing with Saint Stephen ! Doesn’t happen often.
    I look at the studies too.

    Women are more attracted to a man who has been “pre checked” by other women. Scientists think its an evolutionary throw back. Other women about mean that this man is considered safe, which in days gone by (and perhaps even today) was very important.
    However none of this is pointing to women wanting unavailable men, though it looks like it from the outside.

    Also studies show men exhibit a very high consensus on what they consider attractive. “Chubby chasers” are probably a small proportion of the overall population. Possibly they may have differences of opinion on secondary characteristics.
    On the other hand women seem to agree on  the small minority of men they find attractive, but disagree on the rest (possibly they are not attracted to the rest ?)

    Both men and women want attractive partners. Age is not really an issue.
    Women have a number of characteristics they find attractive in addition to looks. Men just go on looks.

    Theoretically this should work well for women, as it should give them many more opportunities to find someone with at least one attractive characteristic.
    Unfortunately women want men who possess ALL the attractive characteristics. Women have very few options as a result.

    Age is not a major issue for men – as long as you look like an average 25 year old you should have no problem getting a date.

    Men will date younger women because they can (as long as they possess enough of those additional characteristics).
    The men who are unable to attracted younger women are invisible to older women, so again older women are left with few options.

    Hope that answers all the questions !
     

78. AllenB 78

    @Zaq 77
    Age is not a major issue for men – as long as you look like an average 25 year old you should have no problem getting a date
    That WAS sarcasm, right? I mean, if someone said the same thing about women: “Age is not a major issue for women – as long as you look like the average 25 year old. . . “

79. nathan 79

    I get the sense that these studies being cited are flawed from the beginning. If you focus on looks, you’ll get an outcome focused on looks. Even if you just zero in on sexual attraction, it’s much more complex than that. Everything from how someone smells, to general body movement patterns, to the sound of someone’s voice play a role.

80. Fifi 80

    Dear Evan and all, this is a very interesting topic and I have a well established definition about both men and women who chose to live alone: quitters. Yes, it does take a lot of work and time investment to find and keep the right partner because we all agree that we should not get involved in bad relationships only for the sake of being in a relationship. There are obviously plenty of lazy people out there who get easily demotivated and are reluctant to make a continuous effort. It is not easy and I know it from my personal experience but people in relationships, with families and friends live better and longer. No matter how hard we try to defy biological theories about the humankind, we are collective creatures, not solitary robots.   

    I got divorced at the age of 36 and wanted to immediately be in a new (better) relationship and possibly have a child. It took me 6 years and a tremendous amount of disappointment before I found the right man. (It did not work out with the child because the biological clock has no mercy for women.) Along the way I met tons of horrible men who were out there looking but had subconsciously or more consciously decided that they were better off single. I had to go through series of awkward situations before I understood what was going on in these guys’ minds. I never quit though.

    On the other hand, older women who have made the choice to stay single are sincere about it, or at least are not on a lookout creating more confusion on the dating market. I respect their choice however the problem with these women is that they tend to surround themselves with the same kind. They create isolated anti-male capsules and make it hard for anyone with a different mindset to interact with them. I had to work with one such group who ran a charity I was involved with. It was not a pleasant experience and regretfully I had to drop this activity. I could not stand being around a bunch of older ladies who were non-stop ranting about how happy they were without any men in their lives.         
      

81. Bill 81

    @ AMY – instead of spending time writing these huge replies get back to the dating world instead of wasting your time online go on a date.

    There are tons and tons of great guys around but the problem most women do not find them attractive enough to date or to pursue a relationship. In general all women want to a man who is not just highly attractive but also have a list of other qualities. 

    I listen to my friends who are way older than me. I told them at your age all the good family men are taken. When you meet a good man who you don’t find attractive enough to want to date give him a chance because there aren’t many of those around. 

    We live in a society where TV will influence your reality. Even when someone does lower there standards they are still pretty high.

    Amy the truth your NOT attracted to a good guy it is who you are. You haven’t change it why try because it wont happen. 

82. amy 82

    You don’t listen so good, Bill. I’m not looking for a family man. I’m done having kids, and I don’t need a guy coming around trying to play daddy, leave me cleaning up after him. Your advice works for a woman who wants a traditional husband/father more than anything else, and is willing to put up with some significant problems to get one.

83. M 83

    Amy’s writings on this thread are very impressive. I am a man but the way she puts things, I’m not particularly offended. Without breaking down all sorts of specifics, well written, Amy. 

84. Zann 84

    Regarding sweeping generalizations, I’d like to point out Fifi’s admonishment (#80): “I have a well established definition about both men and women who chose to live alone: quitters.” I’m pretty sure that’s not a definition. That’s an opinion…which you’re certainly entitled to, but let’s call it what it is.

    In my opinion, Amy speaks a lot of truth, although I admit, I had to skim over some of it. I find her no-nonsense observations very refreshing. Besides, anyone who uses the phrase “awesomesauce” gets my vote. But I’m not sure why some of the male commenters find it so crucial to parse her comments with such a fine-toothed comb. Why the critical analysis? With all due respect to Evan, this isn’t a science blog, it’s a blog about male-female relationships and finding love. Amy isn’t vicious or mean-spirited. She’s speaking from her experience, and she’s not telling anyone they should think like she does. Does she over-generalize? Of course, but since when is that unheard of on a blog? Her content lays out what many women, including me, have described about what it looks like from the woman’s side when trying to maneuver in a culture where women are asked to be both sexy and maternal, independent and financially responsible without making their man feel threatened, fun and easy even when worried or worn-out, because that’s what a supportive woman supposedly does.

    When I hear comments like P’s, who pitches that “Women are NEVER happy,” characterizing any women who talks about disenchantment with their experience with men as Nazi-feminist ball-busters, I can’t help but point out what might cause a woman to believe that theirs is the kinder, gentler, maybe even more evolved gender:
    -world-wide men commit more crimes than women do, particularly crimes of violence;
    -men are more likely to perpetrate domestic violence, including murder and sexual assault, against their spouse or partner, than women are;
    -men, not women, are the ones with the power and authority to initiate military conflict (i.e., war, occupation, juntas, etc.), and they do;
    -it wasn’t all that long ago that a wife was considered a husband’s property;
    -if I hear someone approaching from behind in a parking garage, and I turn to see it’s a woman stranger, I relax; not so if it’s a man (and men have told me the same is true for them); and
    -men are more likely than women to be crabby, cranky, and blaming in situations where no one is to blame (financial woes, sick kids, malfunctioning ATM machines, traffic jams!) — okay, I admit it, this last one is subjective.

    I fall in the demographic they’re speaking of in this article. I’m 59, was divorced after 20 years of marriage & kids, and have been living alone for 12 years, and for most of that time, I’ve been dating. I work full time at a challenging job, which I fortunately like. I worry about whether and when I’ll be able to afford to retire, but I made up my mind a long time ago that I wasn’t going to become an isolated, bitter woman, complaining about how unfair it all is, boo hoo, poor pitiful me. But sometimes I’m just too damn tired to put in the effort to go meet yet another male stranger and do the work that’s sometimes involved in keeping the conversation going, or trying to fit in a word edgewise, or not commenting on the fact that he’s a good 15 years older and 50 pounds heavier than his picture.

    I don’t have a laundry list of must-haves in a man, and he need not be tall, dark, or even classically handsome. I like kind, funny, interesting men who don’t rage about their jobs or their ex-wives in our very first conversation. I’m fortunate to be in good health, good shape, and attractive. Still, I haven’t found a “match,” and although I think highly of Evans’ work here, I don’t think I’m single because I’m not attracting the right kind of man to myself. I think it’s because there aren’t many men out there I find interesting and attractive, and those that I do haven’t been interested in anything other than casual physical relationships.

    The truth is, I don’t know anymore if I ever chose to live alone, or whether it’s just my reality, so why not make the best of it? That doesn’t mean I don’t get lonely. But I’ve lived with more than one unhappy, unaffectionate, self-involved man who didn’t share themselves and who didn’t have my back, although they enjoyed me having theirs. Living alone is so much better than living with that, hands down.

85. Peter 85

    According to the UK Office for National Statistics, in 1982 women’s marriage rates fell off a cliff after 40 by 2002 the cliff was 50. Older women are more attractive and active than they used to be. The male cliff is about 5 years older, from memory.

86. Peter 86

    @1 “women are essentially punished for being the ones who sacrifice their careers in order to raise children.” Isn’t the career the punishment?

    In the 1970′s the banks forced women into the workforce by giving loans based on the incomes of both members of a couple so all women had to go out to work to afford the same housing as a single earner could once afford. Happened in Europe too. There is US based research (a lady professor at Harvard) demonstrating that after the increase in house prices generated by dual income mortgates, two cars, child care and various strange insurances Americans need for health care, dual income US families are worse off and more vulnerable than single income families in the early 1970′s. The mortgate lenders and automobile finance companies are the gainers. The answer is to work on the stability of marriage (tax breaks and SS benefits awarded to wives – most divorces are initiated by wives in most countries) then there may not be so many single older women looking for a man.

87. Laura 87

    The men I meet (lots of them) through online dating are for the most part very nice guys. Now, I cannot speak to all of their characteristics or how they would end up treating me, because I never get that far. I don’t consider myself overly picky. But I am wondering if after 20 yrs married to one person, if it just isn’t possible that I had one love, my one chance, my only marriage. I could find a companion, a sex partner a date, today. But none of them feel right. Are any women out there experiencing this? That they just don’t want a man because he won’t be the right man? Not through any lack of the man’s intent or character, just their own inability to make it work?

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