You Didn't Lose The Person You Thought You Lost | Evan Marc Katz Blog

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You know what it’s like to get devastated when a promising new relationship doesn’t work out? Well, take heart – you didn’t actually lose ANYTHING.

In fact, you gained the freedom to find the person you ARE meant to be with.

It may not seem to be the case, but I want to point out to you that it’s a blessing when your dead-end relationship finally comes to a close…

A client of mine shared a story with me recently.

A lawyer in her mid-50s, Carol said that she’d gone out with this new guy three times.

He was older, divorced, and a real gentleman.

Unlike many men she’d met online, this man made a great effort each time.

He’d make plans in advance, email her in between dates, compliment her when he saw her, pay for everything, and talk about having a future together.

He was even a great kisser!

But one night while the new couple was fooling around on the couch, things got a little weird.

To avoid going too far, too fast, Carol (after some heavy petting), said what I told her to say when putting on the brakes:

“I also want you badly, but I only sleep with guys that I know I’m in a committed relationship with. That doesn’t mean that we can’t do a lot of other fun things together, but I don’t want the man I have sex with to be hitting on other women on Match.com tomorrow.”

The idea behind this is to let the man know that you ARE into him, but that you have just this one very reasonable boundary.

Generally, guys can understand this.

If he’s really into you, this is his chance to step up and become your boyfriend. If he’s not, this is a clear sign to get out.

Either way, it’s impossible for us to disrespect a woman who says she only has sex in a committed relationship. Even if we’re not getting our instant gratification met, it’s impossible for a man to find fault with a sexual woman who values herself.

A man’s failure to step up to the plate and act like a boyfriend is Red Flag #1 that he’s not a keeper.

Alas, Carol never heard from her guy the day after, or the day after that, or ever again. And when she started thinking, she started to get upset with me. After all, it was my advice that had killed her relationship. For all she knows, maybe if she would have slept with him, he would have asked her out again.

Uh uh. Nope. Fuhgeddaboutit.

Setting down boundaries for sex is a truth test – and this guy failed with flying colors.

I’m not suggesting that you “test” men. Not at all. But a man’s failure to step up to the plate and act like a boyfriend is Red Flag #1 that he’s not a keeper.

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126 Comments »Filed Under Sex

126 Responses to “You Didn’t Lose The Person You Thought You Lost”

Samantha 1

Interesting. I didn’t meet my guy online and he said that when I feel ready to have sex he wants to. He says he’s not dating anyone else. I don’t want to push him, but if we are to have sex I want us to be exclusive.
Goldie 2

Good post, I can relate Can I ask a question? There is one thing that I’m currently trying to figure out that this post has touched upon. I am not sure how I feel about this line:

“I also want you badly, but I only sleep with guys that I know I’m in a committed relationship with.”

I agree that sleeping with relative strangers isn’t a great idea, and taking it slow appeals to me a lot, but here’s the thing. The way I understand it, from reading this blog, other resources, and my own experience, dating is a way of getting to know each other better, the end goal being to get to know each other well enough that we can accurately determine whether we’ll work out well together long-term.

Now, the way I see it, sex, in addition to being a fun and satisfying activity, is also a way of getting to know a person better. Which is why I am not sure if it’s safe to commit before having sex. Here’s a hypothetical situation – I meet a man online, we hit it off, we spend time together, we become exclusive, we take our profiles down, then we have sex. Then he lets his guard down completely around me and acts more like himself than he used to previously. I get to see the new side of this guy that I never saw before.

Now, suppose that I do not like what I see. Suppose I see new things about that guy, that he’s been careful not to expose around me before, that I really do not like and cannot live with. But I’m already committed to him, and my online account is closed. Doesn’t this complicate things a little? I mean, I can and should still break up with him, but won’t it be a lot more difficult under the circumstances?

I’m honestly trying to understand this and set a strategy for myself. Help me out here please.
Ruby 3

I think there is a basic contradiction here. Carol only went out with this man 3 times, but later on EMK says that it’s appropriate to expect a commitment after 3 MONTHS. An educated guess would tell me that she’d probably been seeing this man for less than a month, maybe just a couple of weeks. I think to expect a committed relationship after only 3 dates is absurd. If you don’t want to have sex outside of a committed relationship, then wait longer before you have sex.

This is why I think that slowing down physical intimacy and dating other people until a relationship becomes exclusive is a good thing. If a man is at your place and you are practically having sex, he will want to go all the way. Doing heavy petting on the third date and then trying to stop it with an exclusivity talk may not give the desired result.

Plus, to some people, the words “committed relationship” are tantamount to “marriage is on the horizon”!

This all sounds so “high school” when you are talking about middle-aged people, but some things never change!
Dawn 4

Yes, I’m wondering the same thing. Evan has written in the past about not delaying sex too long and it seems to me that waiting three months for somone to become a boyfriend is too long to put off sex.
Jennifer 5

I really like the theme of this post; once I fully accepted the idea that you can’t ‘lose’ the right one because if he was the right one then you wouldn’t have lost him, my worries about my dating past and future diminished greatly.

Goldie#2- I’m with you regarding getting to know someone sexually; this is why I don’t require being in a committed relationship before having sex.
BloggyDaddy 6

Well, I’m a guy that feels pretty weird if I meet a girl and she wants to have sex right away, which seems to be more of the norm these days. Most of the guys I know talk about wanting one night stands and easy sex, but when push comes to shove, we would all rather have a woman put up some boundaries and make us wait or at least work a little more for it. I start to feel like there are red flags if I go on a date and she wants sex that same night. I’m not saying I wouldn’t do it; sometimes that’s more willpower than I’ve got, but it totally kills the idea that this could be relationship material. There are always exceptions to the rule, but generally I’d rather wait if I really like her, it makes her more valuable in my eyes.
Ruby 7

Dawn #4

I don’t think it has to be 3 months (although I’d think at least a month or 2 as a general rule), just whatever you are comfortable with. I do think 3 dates is a bit soon for the exclusivity talk.
Laya 8

Honestly if I was a guy I would be put off by how Carol approached on the subject. By explaining that she would like to sleep with him but only in a committed relationship because she would then wonder if he was flirting with other women on match, comes off to me as insecure to me. I don’t think a justification is necessary. Let the guy know you like to wait a while before sleeping with someone then let it go. Carol can then sit back and watch his behavior and decide if he meets her standard of a committed relationship. I too think Evan offers a bit of mixed messages. 3 dates is too short of a period of time to talk about commitment.
Evan Marc Katz 9

Laya,

It’s not insecure to say, “I don’t sleep with men who are potentially sleeping with other women.” It’s practical. Notice that I didn’t instruct Carol to pressure him to be in a relationship. I just said that she should have her own (very reasonable) boundaries. No intercourse without commitment.

I think it’s actually funny that you say, “3 dates is too short of a period to talk about commitment.” Really? But 3 dates is a perfect time to have sex?

You got it backwards, sweetheart.

You can be a perfectly sane, emotionally healthy, sexual being who wants to attack your man on Date 3 – just be forewarned: there’s only a 50% chance he ever calls you again. If you wait for him to be exclusive with you, there’s a 100% chance.

I like my odds over yours.

E
Evan Marc Katz 10

Oh, and the other thing that y’all don’t seem to be following is this:

I don’t advocate for sex or commitment after 3 dates OR 3 months. I merely point out that you need to know that a man is into YOU, not into SEX. If he’s excited about you, you’re excited about him, and you both want to be exclusive after 3 dates, GREAT. You’re an instant couple, driven by passion, and you can have amazing sex now and figure out if you’re compatible later. But if you sleep with the guy on Date 3 because you WANT to, you run the significant risk that you become the one-night stand or booty call option.

My advice to hold out for commitment doesn’t tell you to pressure him for commitment. It reminds you that having sex with you is a VALUABLE experience and if you let every cute guy do it on the third date, you’re gonna get burned. I’m not even sure how you can argue with this.
Jennifer 11

Evan #9,
100% ? Surely you jest
i’m not against people waiting as long as they want for sex. But there are people out there that will say ‘okay we’re exclusive’ just to get some and never call again.
So i’ve got a bit of a quibble with that 100%
Maya 12

Second that Evan.
Diana 13

Evan is right. I held out to have sex with my boyfriend until we were in a committed relationship initiated by him. It has been a year and a half now, and he is asking me my ring size, saving extra money, and talking about our future and having children. We are both in our late thirties, and our love is a beautiful thing. He was worth the wait.
Veronica 14

The one thing that concerns me is that she started to engage in heavy petting and then put the breaks on. May have sounded like a bait and switch to her date. Why even get yourself into that situation to begin with? If you truly want to wait until this guy is committed – then heavy petting is out in my book until I see some indication that he’s truly interested in getting to know me better. Maybe he didn’t call her again because he thought she was a tease, had an agenda, and was pressuring him in a roundabout way. Personally, I don’t engage in heavy petting with someone I just started dating unless I plan on going all the way with it. Let’s be adults here.
Fawn 15

I have to disagree with Carol’s whole approach, too. The one thing that concerns me is that she engaged in “heavy petting” with this guy knowing full well that she would not have sex with him unless he was willing to commit to an exclusive relationship. Why even go there? In her dates mind, that may have sounded like a bait and switch or some sort of agenda. I don’t do “heavy petting” with anyone I don’t plan on sleeping with. It’s a tease. If a guy did this to me, I would be turned off, too.
Garnet 16

You are strumming my pain with your fingers, as the old song says. The promising guy has pretty much disappeared after I asked for time on Date 3. Sigh. Why my heart is the open beginner variety, I don’t know. At least your blog helps by confirming what I’m seeing from my angle. Thanks, I guess.
Chris 17

You can’t just consider if he really likes you, you have to ask, do you really like him?

A while ago I met a girl I thought was AWESOME in every way for me. We had a ton in common on paper, great chemistry and ended up having sex on Date #2. Since she was very good looking and in her late 20s, you can imagine my surprise when I found out I was only her #4. I was sure it meant that I was special.

I knew I liked her and I was sure she liked me. I started to act like we were already boyfriend and girlfriend, mostly by being too nice. Women like guys who keep a aloof in the beginning and I scared her away. She told me two weeks later she didn’t think I was “for real.”

It was a while ago, but I still believe that I would have been a very good partner for her. I know she would have been a good one for me. Bottom Line: don’t go too fast.
Selena 18

Count me in the camp that doesn’t do “heavy petting” unless it’s as a prelude to intercourse. Does anyone post high school?

Also, to me exclusive and commitment aren’t necessarily the same thing. I don’t want to share my body with someone who is sharing theirs with other people. That’s dating “exclusively”, or to put it less ambiguously, “focusing on each other for now”.

Commitment comes later, after compatibility, including sexual compatibility has been established.
SS 19

@Dawn #4

I waited four months. I didn’t come up with a specific amount of time, I just wanted to wait until I knew we were in an exclusive relationship AND I felt comfortable with the idea of being physically intimate with the man.

My partner said he was willing to wait… yes, he said I made him wait a while, but he understood why. I wasn’t playing a game or anything, but he said he appreciated the fact that I set a standard and made him reach it. He also proposed to me eight months later.

While I don’t care about how others choose to conduct their relationships — people can all have sex on the first date or wait until marriage, as far as I’m concerned — I was never worried about the fact that if I made a man wait for longer than three dates, that I might lose him. That’s a TERRIBLE way, in my opinion, to go into a relationship, because you’re basically violating your personal standards to keep a man from leaving. You’re acting out of fear, not out of personal choice.

I really hope that women aren’t having sex when they’re not ready because they believe that three months without having sex with a man is “too long.” That’s really scary to me that we live in a society where a lot of people consider three months without sex to be “too long.”
Angie 20

Evan, a quick question – Would you think it is more appropriate to tell a guy BEFORE bringing him into your house and BEFORE engaging in “heavy petting” that you find him attractive, but don’t want to be part of his rotation?

I think it is generally good practice far as safety and health are concerned that one doesn’t sleep with someone who is sleeping with multiple women, not just emotionally. This way the guy knows your boundaries BEFORE you put the brakes on.

Also, you never speak about this… while some guys are “good catches” on the outside (polite, respectful, well-educated, good jobs and good families), they completely lack passion and sexual abilities. What if this *is* important to us?
Fawn 21

@Chris#17
I think it really is a matter of readiness and maturity. When I started dating the love of my life, I told him that he was a really nice guy and he took that as a bad thing because girls have been telling him he was too nice all of his dating life. When I told him he was nice, I truly meant it as a compliment. He was a breath of fresh air. Here we are two years later, and he is still a really nice guy. Not a pushover, mind you. But sweet, caring and someone I can rely on. He still gives me butterflies. I guess what I’m trying to say, is maybe this girl was not ready for a committed relationship and she got scared off. I am 50 years old and done playing games.
Sayanta 22

Ruby #3-

Your last line about high-school- AMEN! That’s what I was thinking. Seriously- people in their 50s, and professionals, behaving like this? Asking the same kind of advice that a 17 year old would ask? I guess the whole ‘age brings wisdom’ saying is dead wrong.
Tosha 23

Great post! I have gone too fast before and learned my lesson. The time I went too fast and it did not work out, I was left feeling horrible. While I still have some other things I am working on, I have come to value that part of me and want to share it with someone that values me as well.
I so appreciate the male perspective on this.
BeenThereDoneThat 24

I actually love this post! I believe in having this boundary. I went out with a guy recently who tried on our first meet/date. I said I had to take things slower and I never heard from him again. I was wondering the same thing; if I had had sex with him that night, would he have called? I know you have to take the risk of getting hurt but sleeping with someone too soon for me is upping the risk ante more than I am comfortable with.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, Evan, for the reminder that getting out of a dead end relationship is a good thing.
Diana 25

Hey Selena (#18). You took the words right out of my mouth. I also agree with several other posters in that I do not agree with her heavy petting with the guy, and then suddenly putting the brakes on due to the “commitment” issue. I think he lost respect for Carol because of the way she handled the situation. If commitment or exclusivity is of the utmost importance to you, then have an open and honest discussion about your boundaries after he makes his intentions known, but not half way to the bedroom.

My boundaries are exclusivity and allowing enough time to pass to create a sense of trust, comfort and knowledge that he’s into “me” first and foremost. A “committed relationship” is not the same thing as exclusivity, as Selena pointed out. Honestly, I think that term is used too loosely because it means different things to different people, and it can easily get misconstrued.

And what is the meaning behind “doing other fun things together?” Are these sex related things? If that’s the case, then what? It’s okay to do certain unmentionables, but not the deed? Heck. If you’re going to go that far, does putting off the deed really matter? Of course, other fun things could mean the typical dating fare, too.
Katarina Phang 26

I’d be very thrilled if I ever got the chance of wanting to have sex with a guy these days. Just to reasonably like them enough to see them again is hard enough.

I think in this case, she should have asked herself first: how do I feel about this? Am I ready to have sex with him?

If yes, then she should have followed her heart knowing that sex might or might not lead to anything deeper. Guys might disappear before or after sex, there is no guarantee either way. So I also questioned what Evan really meant by “100% chance.”

She should only have sex because she wants and enjoys it and it’s a part of getting to know him better.

If no, then the answer is obvious. Refrain from heavy petting or forewarn him before things go too far that she’s not ready for full intercourse.
R.C. 27

I wish it had of been me Evan gave this advice to a few years ago fresh from a divorce and trying to date again. She should have been grateful she DIDN’T give up the goodies. He would have split anyway after it was all said and done. His actions was a clear indication of that. She would of REALLY been disappointed and hurt had he actuallly nailed then bailed. As the saying goes………..Actions always speak the loudest.
starthrower68 28

I wouldn’t put passion before principle. If they walk, let ‘em.
Evan Marc Katz 29

Selena and Diana,

“Exclusive” and “commitment” – for all intents and purposes – are the same. Are you not actively dating or searching for other people online? Yes? Then you’re committed and you should feel safe having sex because he’s interested in YOU.

As far as whether it’s normal and ethical to say no to intercourse but yes to everything else? Hell, I made a dating career out of it. If YOU insist that heavy petting must equal sex, that’s on you. For plenty of women, it is not. And it is, just like I said in Why He Disappeared, JUST like high school. You slowly round the bases. Just cause you let a guy get to first doesn’t mean he hits a home run.

Put another way: most women I know have either a physical or mental list of all the men they’ve slept with. I don’t know many who remember every single “heavy petting” incident. Sex is a big deal to most women, which is why there are different emotional attachments surrounding it.

Feel free to equate oral sex and intercourse. Feel free to sleep with men without commitment. I don’t judge you in the least. But if my job is to advise women on how to ethically and effectively protect themselves from men who will use them, my advice is far more effective than, “Well, it’s three dates in, he’s hot, he’s got my pants off, so, why not?”

Followed by five days of agonizing that he hasn’t called you and is still active on Match.
JerseyGirl 30

If women shouldn’t expect commitment just because she is going out with a man, having a good time and connecting, it would be stupid for there to be a reverse expectation that just because a woman engages in heavy petting or kissing with a man that she is expected to go sleep with him. In the early stages of a relationship there are no promises to anyone in sex or commitment. No one is beholden to the other.

So in this instance, a very rare one, I agree with Evan’s advice completely and his subsequent comments.

And on that note, I’d like to say something from BloggyDaddy who said:
“Most of the guys I know talk about wanting one night stands and easy sex, but when push comes to shove, we would all rather have a woman put up some boundaries and make us wait or at least work a little more for it. I start to feel like there are red flags if I go on a date and she wants sex that same night. I’m not saying I wouldn’t do it; sometimes that’s more willpower than I’ve got, but it totally kills the idea that this could be relationship material. There are always exceptions to the rule, but generally I’d rather wait if I really like her, it makes her more valuable in my eyes.”

I know this is a common mentality with guys but it’s really an immature one too. It’s the stuff of high school boys. Not a man.

If you rather wait, then wait. Don’t make a woman your own personal moral gate keeper. No woman wants a man that can’t man up and make his own choices, stand up for what he really wants vs making the woman his scape goat to use her then blame her. Do I expect that you’ll really take my comment seriously? No, I have no doubt you will go right on making women your moral gate keepers while perversally punishing them for it at the same time when they give you exactly what you want. But the free pass you and other guys give yourselves while you condemn the woman that act like you is really strange and childish. And at the end of the day, this isn’t a man most women respect anyway. One that holds *her* accountable for how he acts. One that holds *her* accountable for his sexual lust then punishes her by saying “nahh you aren’t good enough for commitment”.
Selena 31

Actually I agree with your “advice” EMK – insofar as it is to set one’s own boundaries and make them clear to a potential lover. Also, I agree that it’s the women’s responsibility to determine whether the guy she has had x amount of dates with is interested in her, or just interested in having sex with her. But for me, dating one person at a time (exclusivity) IS NOT the same thing as commitment to being boyfriend/girlfriend. Off-line (and maybe even on-line for all I know) it is still very common for people to focus on dating only one person instead of a few/several at the same time.

There is nothing wrong with waiting to have sex, but many adults find genital manipulation that doesn’t lead to climax very frustrating and certainly not the time to “put on the brakes” and have the “I want a commitment before we go any further” discussion. Blarney. Frankly, the consequences for women who try this timing could be much worse than the guy disappearing the next day.
starthrower68 32

Hey listen, I got one who decided he didn’t want to talk to me just because I got a math question wrong. Life goes on. It’s all good…
Diana 33

Evan, I know you made a dating career out of it. I guess my post wasn’t clear. I don’t disagree with your overall message to women. I’m not sure why you think otherwise. There’s absolutely no way I would sleep with a man three dates in, regardless of our “relationship” status. I wouldn’t even consider us to be in a relationship after just three dates. This is a boundary I established, well, almost before you were born. I can assure you, I’m not a, “let’s get it on three dates in” kind of woman.

My issue with Carol’s situation was how the heavy petting more than likely sent a clear signal to the man that sex would follow. There’s nothing wrong with heavy petting without sex, if that is your interest, but I think this (and any other boundaries you may have) should be discussed “before” you find yourself in that kind of situation.

And I’m sorry. But if I’m willing to provide oral sex, then I’m willing to have intercourse. Oral sex may not have the “attachment” effect, but it’s pretty darn personal and not something I’d do until we were exclusive and I knew he was into “me” first.
Gina 34

Evan, I love you! Your words, “You didn’t lose your future husband, you lost the ILLUSION of your future husband,” really hit home for me. I am sitting here working on getting through a broken heart and reading what you wrote is helping me to put things in the proper perspective.

Thank you for your insight and wisdom.
Diana 35

Evan, for the record, if you will allow this to be posted, here’s an article that articulates why I think “exclusivity” and “committed relationship” are two different things:

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/men/commitment-vs-exclusivity
Ruby 36

You can’t control a man’s behavior. Sleeping with him on the third date or in the third month won’t guarantee that he will – or will not – be your boyfriend. If you can handle sex with no commitment, great, if not, then it’s better to wait.

It seems to me that Carol was moving too fast for someone who wants to take things slowly. If she was expecting exclusivity and/or commitment by the third date, yet she wasn’t ready for intercourse, then she should have been pacing the physical intimacy more slowly. That would have given her more time to ascertain whether or not this “real gentleman” was really a nice guy and interested in a serious relationship with her without sexual feelings and heavy relationship questions clouding the issue too soon.
Dalia 37

This is a wonderful post and an excellent reminder! Thank you, Evan!

Honestly, I am truly surprised by how many posters want to argue with Evan over this. Really, this makes sense. There is a little subtlety of reasoning that you need to do, but nothing more than what you’d need in order to split the utility bill with your housemates. Really.

You can think of it in terms of economics: when something is readily (easily) available (your sex), it will command a lower price (your value in his eyes). Plain and simple. Economics can apply to relationships, particularly when two people have something each other wants. From an economics point of view, you mentally create value in a man’s mind by waiting to have sex rather than having it sooner. No, it’s not romantic, but it is true.

I didn’t hear Evan once say that you should wait until three months to have sex or make a commitment. What I did understand is that by three months, he should have been able to get to know you well enough to decide whether or not he is ready to commit or not. In other words, if the guy you’re seeing isn’t ready to yank their match.com profile by that time, it’s probably time to cut things off with him/her.

This is excellent advice! I dated a guy that I had a lot of hopes for last fall. I asked him if he was ready to date exclusively very early because I didn’t want to get hurt. He agreed by taking down his profile and in two months we had sex. However, even though he publicly took his profile down, he was still seeking out other dates and did this after we had sex without breaking up with me. When I found out what he was doing, I was crushed. Even though we weren’t together that long, it was really, really rough.

Lesson to me: I could have waited even longer, observed more, etc. Slowed things down. I don’t think it would have changed his behavior or the fact that we wouldn’t have ended up together. But I ended up exposing myself to potential STDs and a whole lot of hurt.

The silver lining message of this article is not lost on me: I didn’t end up marrying a cheating heartbreaker and I’m so much better off because our relationship ended.
Rose 38

I, too, am not sure why you’re talking about it being impossible to disrespect a woman for only having sex in a “committed relationship” and not an “exclusive relationship,” Evan. Doesn’t exclusive just mean you’re not dating anyone else at the current time, whereas commitment means you’re settling down for good? I’m particularly confused because I could swear I read a post of yours some time ago where you seemed to suggest that a woman shouldn’t make a guy wait till marriage to have sex.
Goldie 39

Evan, since I’m on a budget, I’d really like to know this: in your opinion, should I or should I not take my profile down before I become exclusive, committed, have sex, what have you? I have problems with this part, because to me, doing it before I get to know the man better (aka sex) sounds a lot like throwing $100 down the drain. Am I missing something? I know to a lot of people on here $100 is small change, but I’ve got a kid starting college in the fall and money is kind of important to me right now.
Diana 40

Evan, I am not in disagreement with your message to women. It’s within my nature to have established boundaries and to not be fully intimate with a man three dates in under any circumstances. This is how I have raised my daughter. I also don’t find anything unethical or not normal, if a woman wants to do heavy petting without going all the way, though the term “heavy petting” is open to interpretation.

I just thought that if this is a woman’s boundary, then this discussion should take place before their actions start to heat up, so that the man doesn’t feel misled. That’s all.

As for whether exclusivity and a committed relationship are one and the same … IMHO exclusivity brings a commitment to dating only each other, but a committed relationship means not only dating exclusively, but also for several months, possibly living together, meeting friends and family, etc. If I am exclusive with a man, that doesn’t mean he’s going to receive the keys to the city before we find a trusting and comfortable milestone where I know he’s into me first and foremost. Typically, two to three months in. And that also doesn’t mean he’s not going to get to first or second base. I know that men need to feel encouraged.
Donna 41

Setting boundaries is great, but I’d be sure I said the word exclusive and seeing where things lead, rather than saying commitment, which could be miscontrued as knowing you want to be together longterm and having a ring on your finger – if I were a guy I’d freak over that too ! My two best friends are guys who are popular with women, and they tell me the same thing. Women offer it up to them before the 3rd date, and while they don’t turn it down, they don’t put any value on it either. Giving a man your body is not going to make him fall for you, no matter how good in bed you may be. My friend told me to treat it like the “family jewels” and make the man work for it - he’ll value you more, and you’ll know that he’s really interested in getting to know you, rather than just wanting the sexual relationship. Course you don’t want to come across as a cold fish, but I think men can tell the difference.
A-L 42

I’m a bit amazed at the furor erupting over Evan’s advice on this one. Perhaps part of it is a semantics issue? Heavy petting probably means different things to everyone. To some, once hands touch something beneath the neck then it’s heavy petting. For others, it’s 3rd base. There’s obviously a big difference there in terms of how far a guy might reasonably expect to go before the brakes are put on, which would then affect how he would react to Carol’s statement. So the heavier the petting, the better it is if the position on exclusivity has been made beforehand.

That being said, most adults are starting to think about exclusivity by the 3rd date mark. If you’re not enjoying the company and don’t think there’s potential, then rarely will date #2 (much less 3) happen. So I’m not saying that the people will have had the exclusivity conversation by that time, but individually they’re probably beginning to think about it.

Anyway, if the person you’re dating won’t wait for you, it’s not the right person (regardless of whether the wait is short or long).
Daphne 43

I think the writer (of the original question to EMK) was way too calculating about sex. She’s indicating that she’s thinking completely rationally *while* she’s ready to have sex w this man. That sort of calculation isn’t the kind of wholesale enthusiasm for sex that (I thought) a man wants from a woman. However, how do you know the chemistry’s going to fuel a relationship if you haven’t had sex yet ? Now that she’s said this, how does he know she’s not thinking of things like his level of income and how her friends will think about him- when it should be about him as a man ?
By the way, my bf and I are both in our fifties, and both professionals. This means a much smaller dating pool, which means, to me- if there’s chemistry, you’re incredibly fortunate and should go for it.
misty 44

A male friend of mine dated a girl for 6 weeks, he liked her very much and saw her nearly every night but she made him wait…eventually they had sex which he said was very good, 3 days later he ended it he said he didn’t feel the same way about her, was it because the chase was over?,,she was devastated,,,after hearing this I don’t make them wait that long if I like them…the lasy guy I went out with we had sex on the 3rd date and I think the sex is what kept us together for 3 months but ultimately we just weren’t compatible, I will definitely miss sleeping with him and don’t regret not waiting because I felt he liked me.
Christie Hartman 45

Yes. To tell a guy you prefer to have sex when you’re exclusive is a great way to test where a guy is. He can say he’s up for it (great), he can say he isn’t ready for exclusivity yet (bummer, but he can’t help if he’s ready or not), or he can disappear like a loser (NOT the guy for you). Whatever happens, you get your answer.

Regarding when to be exclusive: The 3rd date may be too soon to EXPECT exclusivity, but it isn’t too soon to get it. If a guy likes you, there’s a strong chance he’ll be up for that after a handful of dates. If he’s not, you can hold off (on sex, on exclusivity) for a while. After a couple of months, if he doesn’t want to date just you, move on.

There was nothing wrong with the OP’s behavior. The topic has to come up sometime, and fooling around in a way that could lead to sex is a natural time to broach it.
Cat 46

Misty, #44, I think you’re missing the point. A guy who won’t date you unless you have sex right away is NOT a good long term partner. And if you have sex too soon, you may get blinded by those feelings of chemistry and not pay attention to whether you’re compatible outside of the bedroom (and let’s face it, most of a relationship takes place outside of the bedroom!)

To find out more about why men “disappear,” check out this book of Evan’s.
Laine 47

#29 JerseyGirl Agree with your sentiments on the moral gatekeeper man. Any man who judges a woman for something he does himself is a hypocrite.

#30 KP Hilarious..Id be thrilled if I met a guy I wanted to have sex with too. Ditto with the second cofee date
Selena 48

This whole discussion about “heavy petting” and making a commitment brings to mind the old hit teen song “Paradise By The Dashboard Light” by Meatloaf. Anyone else hear that old refrain? lol.

@Diana #35

Thanks for sharing that link. Really summed up the difference between exclusivity and commitment well. And the commenters on that blog agreed there was a difference.
Theresa H 49

enjoyed this post….was a little down today and this made me feel better – thanks Evan.
confused 50

Is it self sabotage to say during the 1st date that you are looking for something serious? Not with that man you’re on a date with at the time, but in general, stating I’m looking for a serious relationship with someone.
Sarah 51

You’re absolutely right, Evan.

And I think most of us know, deep down, that that’s how it works. It just hurts so much when you get your hopes up and then they come crashing back down to earth. It’s not rational. It’s a deep disappointment and a rejection and it hurts.

I was involved with a horrible guy who, for awhile, had me thoroughly fooled into thinking he was wonderful. One night we hit the point where we couldn’t pretend anymore, and he showed his true colors. I broke up with him because of his disrespectful behavior toward me. He didn’t object to breaking up; in fact, he even seemed to take it on as if it had been his decision. I was devastated. I wanted him back. I wanted him to want me back, to not want to break up. I kept telling myself that he was obviously not as wonderful as I thought and I was right to end it with him, but it just hurt so damn bad because I’d had such high hopes for us.

Your client was hurt because she felt disappointed and rejected, but as time heals those wounds (and it will at least make them better, if not fully heal them), she will realize that she dodged a bullet, and she’ll thank you. Were it not for your advice she would have been hurt even worse.
Katarina Phang 52

#47 Laine, thanks. For me personally, to be exclusive with a guy is a big decision. I may not be ready to such “commitment” but I’m ready to have sex with him.

I guess, to each her own. It very much boils down to a woman’s values and perception of options.

I have always been very relaxed about sex and so far it has never been an issue. There were perhaps a few times I thought I shouldn’t have had sex that soon but it never was a big production to me that left a “lifetime scar.”
confused 53

This is not attacking and looking to contradict you, Evan, I want clarity so that I’m sure about the strategy I take about the next man I date. I’m 28 and want to get married. The following was stated in this post:

“So as much as you think you’re saving time by putting all your cards out on the table right away, you’re actually sabotaging yourself.”
I’m in my 30′s and I Don’t Want to Waste Time With the Wrong Men. How Soon Should I Find Out If He’s Serious About Marriage and Kids?

It’s mentioned in this post to “play it cool,” yet do I still make it known that I have a standard of committment before sex from what you’re saying in this post? A part from sex, I previously commented that I would like to make it known that I’m looking for a serious relationship unless that sabotage.
Laine 54

Katarina @ 53 . We seem to think alike. What comes across on these blogs is that women need to curtail their female sexual energy and not be true to themselves to ensure a guy will want a long term relationship with them. Jersey girl alluded to this in her post on the male moral gatekeeper.
When all is said and done this is not about when a couple has sex. It is about who has the power, or rather who is willing to give away their power rather than stay with it. It is about the psychological mind state of the parties involved. I have sex when and with whom I want, when it feels right to me ( partner willing). I have no hidden agenda as to whether this will develop into a long term relationship or not. I need to feel emotionally close to a man before sex, but I understand that the complexities in developing intimacy cannot be forced with exclusivity or commitment without spending a lot of time getting to know one another both in and out of the bedroom. I always think about whether I like the guy and if he is paying me the attention I need to continue to see him. I never wonder what he thinks of me..his behaviour tells me that. I think about whether or not I want to keep seeing him, and if he is mindful of keeping my ongoing attention, irrespective of whether we have slept together or not.

it is such a subtle shift, from wondering if a guy likes you, or considering if you like him and will give him any more time, Subtle maybe, but guys know which woman they are dealing with.

And if they cant figure it out, that there problem
Nancy 55

When a guy says he is going to be exclusive, these days, the only “proof” a woman has is the act of taking down his online dating profile. Well that’s a bunch of hooey!
I am one of those women that “committed” guys puts on their favorites list while they are ostensibly in an exclusive relationship. They take down their profiles, put them back up in the wee hours of the morning, put me on their favorites list , then take their profiles back down again to keep the charade going. Eventually they contact me. I actually had a guy do this on the day he was getting married (I never met him but my friend did and told me, when I was showing her my Match guys, that she knew him and the date he favorited me was his wedding day, and the guy is in his late forties, successful and on his second marriage). He eventually contacted me (he,having been married for a week,) and I ignored him. Guys tell me that, for my age- which is middle, I am considered a ten, and, well, most men would like to sleep with me (little do they know I am very hard to get) even if it means cheating on their whatevers.
JoJo 56

I do agree with Evan’s advice and see his point completely. I’m a woman that likes to take things slow and will not have sex outside of an exclusive relationship. His advice on stating your boundary without pressuring the guy into commitment is awesome. However, I agree with the commenters that say how you don’t start heavy petting and then put the breaks on with a commitment talk; especially after 3 dates. I’m not saying that sex has to follow after heavy petting; I’m just saying that your boundaries should be discussed before entering that situation just as Diana and some others said. There are people such as myself who are OK with some petting and don’t have to have penetration. I can sleep in the same bed with a guy and not do anything. Some guys are OK with it and some can’t do it. Everyone’s tolerance level is different; it doesn’t make anyone right or wrong. This is why I won’t accept dates in a guys house so early on in the dating process. If I did, I would state where I stand before even going there because I don’t want to be misleading nor be considered a tease. I’ve notice that there are lots of guys that won’t commit without knowing if you’re sexually compatible; where I can’t have sex without exclusivity. I just know that those guys aren’t a match for me. My ex and I became exclusive after 5 dates and he had not even seen me naked by that point. He was very respectful and that’s one of the things I really liked. Our dates were always out in public areas and neither one of us invited the other to our homes.
I feel that 3 dates is too soon for an exclusivity talk; just as 3 dates is too soon for sex. If Carol wanted to take it slow, then she should have avoided being on a couch so soon. Again, I’m not saying that they can’t be on the couch without anything happening; I’m just saying that her boundaries could have been discussed and clear beforehand. This is why I’m saying it’s best to avoid these situations all together early on, so that you won’t have these awhward moments. Now she gets annoyed at Evan for following his advice when she should be thinking that he probably wasn’t the guy for her. Sounds to me like she wanted to sleep with the guy and makes it sound as if Evan advised her on not to. Evan doesn’t advise women to hold out on sex when the women want to.

Carol needs to take responsibility for her part and be grateful that she realized this wasn’t her guy early on.
Selena 57

@Laine #54

Applause!
Karl R 58

confused asked: (#52)
“It’s mentioned in this post to ‘play it cool,’ yet do I still make it known that I have a standard of committment before sex from what you’re saying in this post?”

It’s possible to communicate a boundary (no sex before exclusivity) or an eventual goal (marriage) while still playing it cool. The way to come across as being cool about it is to seem like you’re not in a rush.

It also comes across as “cooler” to not blurt out your agenda up front. Instead, mention it when the topic of conversation has wandered over in that direction.

Let’s say I want my date to know that I’m dating with the intention of finding a wife, not a fling. I might wait until we start talking about our families. When we’re discussing our families, I normally mention that my brother has been married three times. Then I could follow up by saying, “I want to get married at some point, but I’d rather take my time and find the right person, instead of jumping into a marriage then finding out it’s with the wrong person.”

I can make that statement while I’m on the first date without making it sound like I’m rushing to the altar.
Evan Marc Katz 59

To Katarina and Laine and anyone who may have quibbled with this post: if you’re not worried about a guy bailing after sex, then have sex whenever you want. Really. I’m all for it. If the gain you get from having sex before commitment is greater than the cost of getting used and ignored, then you have a calculus that works for you.

This advice is designed protect women from their own libidos and impulses; to ensure a measure of commitment BEFORE the act, instead of wishing for commitment AFTER the act, when the deed is already done, you’re emotionally vulnerable and have no control over what he does. This isn’t patronizing or suggesting that women need to curtail their sexual energy or any such false equivalent.

This is simply recognizing what I’ve heard hundreds of times as a dating coach: “Why would he sleep with me if he didn’t care? Why do I keep getting hurt? Why are men such players?” So while I’m all for sleeping around because you feel like it, MANY women can’t handle the consequences, although they think they can. And if you are willing to sleep with a guy before you know where he stands on your relationship, this is EXACTLY what causes all of your pain afterwards.

Still want to disagree with this for women who are prone to getting hurt by players? Or are you just saying that this doesn’t apply to “you”? Because those are two very different things.
starthrower68 60

@ Nancy #55,

Those dudes to which you refer are a bunch of damned fools and consequences have a way of catching up with people – male or female – who behave that badly.

With regard to the subject at hand, Carol was culpable due to how far she let things go before the discussion, it’s highly likely that the guy she was seeing would have bailed at some point had it not have happened when it did. His behavior speaks volumes about his character. I think this assumption is being made that Carol foresaw how the date’s events would unfold. If men are being in the moment then its highly likely that Carol too was being in the moment. Sex and all thing related is not a topic I initiate unless the guy wants to have that discussion and then I’ll address what my boundaries are. And if a guy is put off by my having tha boundary in place, then he’s more than welcome to go his way and I’ll go mine.
Katarina Phang 61

Well Evan, I do understand why you advise that. As I said it very much boils down to the women’s values. I don’t see having sex as “getting used” by anyone because I do it for my own selfish reasons without any agenda and expectation (just like Laine said).

Meeting someone you feel right in many levels that you can envision a long term relationship with him is so rare in my experience (perhaps one in every 50 men you date?), hence that advice isn’t really practical for me, personally. Sure other women will find it beneficial, I have no problem with that at all.

An btw, because connection and chemistry is so rare in my experience, I in fact sometimes use sex to see if we have more or if I can feel more attracted to him. It’s almost like a way for me to jumpstart something more meaningful: allowing myself to connect and latch to him, seeing another side of him. I know it sounds backward and twisted. But to me, the sooner I know that he’s really a “hopeless case” the better, so no more time is wasted.

And I guess I’m too impatient to allow much more time pass not knowing if I still want to see him in the long run. And if the sex isn’t great we won’t last anyway, so I’d better establish that sooner than later.

As such, I don’t necessarily like the guys more after sex, the other way around usually happens (and they’re the ones who want a relationship while I don’t). So getting hurt after sex rarely happens to me. Sex doesn’t make me attached to him unless I dig him and see him regularly. So it’s not the sex that hurts me, it’s if the relationship doesn’t work which perhaps has little to do with sex.

So it works both ways, though I understand you don’t get to hear this often because it’s not an issue, obviously.
Ruby 62

JoJo #56

Yes, exactly. My last couple of boyfriends both asked me to be their girlfriend BEFORE we’d slept together. Things didn’t work out for other reasons, but at least in terms of our status, I knew where i stood. One of them, whom I’d already known well as a friend, asked after 3 weeks of dating, the other after 6 weeks. Neither one asked in the midst of fooling around, either.
BeenThruTheWars 63

And let’s not forget, once we have sex with a man, there are hormonal processes (oxytocin, anyone?) that make us FEEL we have bonded with him, even if we have not. Feelings aren’t facts.

When I was dating my husband, I was in my mid 40s and he was in his mid 30s. Both adults, both “been around,” and I had been married and divorced. But when the subject came up, I said to him (sweetly and smiling), “I’m a very generous person. But there’s one thing I won’t share, and that’s a man I’m sleeping with.” I just left it at that. I laid out my boundaries, take it or leave it. He got it, and told me he appreciated it. After about 2.5-3 months of dating (12 dates?), he asked me to be his exclusive girlfriend and I accepted. THEN we became intimate. He told me afterwards, “If you’d wanted to wait longer, I would have, because it was really worth it.” We were engaged a few months later.

That’s what it should look like when you’ve met the right person, the person who truly does want YOU and isn’t just out for a good time/what they can get. We didn’t do a lot of heavy petting beforehand because neither of us wanted to get into a situation where it would be “just too easy” to get carried away.

It worked for us. And it’s what I recommend to my own dating coaching clients now. Evan is right on with this one. No sex without commitment/sexual monogamy.
Selena 64

Re: # 59

I don’t disagree with this. I think women are often hurt because they mistakenly believe the act of sex automatically conveys a sense of commitment on the part of the man. It doesn’t necessarily. The more time one spends with someone in person the better sense they get of what that person’s all about.

Personally? Sex is a part of getting to know someone and happens when it feels comfortable to me. Relative to how much time I’ve spent with that person.

Here’s the thing though: a woman can wait until the guy agrees to be exclusive, or takes down his profile, or calls her his girlfriend…unfortunately none of those “commitments” guarantee that he will stick around for life. So ultimately it’s still up to each individual to decide for herself when she feels “ready” and accept the consequences whatever they may turn out to be.
confused 65

Thanks Karl. That sounds like a great way to bring it up.

I wonder when do I bring up the fact that I want exclusivity before I sleep with someone: On a date or while things are getting interesting…
Laine 66

Evan, It doesnt apply to me and never has. I never mentioned sleeping around, that is your perception of the posts. I do set the bar quite high and take time in getting to know a guy, so by the time we are ready to become intimate I feel secure and connected. I have never once had to suggest to a guy that I want to be exclusive or committed as they have always brought it up with me. And I think that is how it should be. I would never give away my female power by telling a man in words that I needed to be exclusive before having sex. I give him space to figure that out all by himself and for him to be the one concerned about me being exclusive with him.If a man wants sex before I know if the relationship has legs, I simply tell him that I dont know him well enough yet. Guys understand this, they are very intelligent

There are some women who naturally attract men and have men falling in love with them, and some women who are pretty clueless and look to men for validation, which sends men running.

If a woman chooses to sleep with someone before emotional intimacy develops, and before she knows the guy fairly well, then the outcome is a calculated risk probably not in her favour or his.
Goldie 67

Jojo has a very good point in #56. If Carol had known beforehand that her strategy should be “no sex without commitment”, then why did her 3rd date take place at either her or his house? (which is the only rational way that can explain why they were making out on a couch.) If you’re in your 40s or 50s and you’re on a date at a guy’s house, isn’t it obvious how he expects this date to go? and shouldn’t you say something to him while the date is still in its planning stage?

And yeah, count me in the “it doesn’t apply to me” camp. Guess I’m just lacking this whole oxytocin thing. I do not know how people automatically bond to anyone they’ve had sex with even once – never happened to me – I’m curious at this point, to tell you the truth. I’d like to feel it, but can’t. I am more likely to use a guy than a guy is likely to use me. I am also the one more likely to disappear. Which probably explains why I have so many questions about this post that I still have no answers to.

Selena #48, I really like that analogy, even though I’ll now probably have the damn song stuck in my head all weekend Fits perfectly.
Daphne 68

Question for Nancy #55- what guy thinks women will answer him if he doesn’t have his profile up for all to see ? I would not have answered a message from someone w a hidden profile.
re Goldie #67- right. Why on earth are people in one person’s house, making out on their couch, if they aren’t planning to have sex ? Going to someone’s house can be read to mean- I’m going to hv sex w you. Have that exclusivity conversation, if you need that conversation, before you get in the door.
Selena 69

I never knew going to someone’s home implied sex was to follow. I’ve had many dinner/conversation/movie/hanging out dates at my house or the guy’s without automatically ending up in bed. Just part of getting to know each other.
Daphne 70

If there’s any chemistry, how would it be avoidable ? I don’t understand this. (I was married since college and have had only this one bf since then- I have never gotten as far as a second date except w this bf and my ex-h).
detha 71

In order not to give the man the wrong impression I think it is wise to keep all dates in public UNTIL you have exclusivity/commitment from the man.

Very few men won’t expect sex if a womans invites him over to her place for a “date”.
hunter 72

That is too bad he left after the third date, on account of what she said. Many men don’t know that, getting on the ‘ship, doesn’t always, mean permanency, there are still other hoops to jump through. This man sounds like a nice guy.
Goldie 73

@ Selena #69, to my close friends it doesn’t imply any such thing, but to a lot of people it does. With someone I’ve only been on two dates with, i.e. still a relative stranger, I probably wouldn’t assume the former, just because I don’t know the guy and don’t know what he thinks.
SS 74

Even if a man doesn’t expect sex when he’s invited to a woman’s place, I think avoiding homes/couches/hotel rooms in general is a good idea if a person wants to keep sex out of the equation for a while as he or she sees how a potential relationship might develop.

Let’s face it, it’s rather easy when two people are in a private place, on a comfortable couch, to let their guard down and start kissing/making out/petting heavily. And once that starts, it can take a good amount of willpower to stop it or at least slow it down.

So why not just avoid the situation altogether by not putting oneself in such a position in the first place?

While I don’t think it was wrong for Carol to get hot and heavy with the guy she was dating, and while I believe that a woman can have a man in her private quarters without it being an invitation for sex, I think that if women want to avoid being put in the position where they have to say no to sex or put up boundaries, it’s better to take the whole “come up to my place” thing out of the equation altogether.
Nancy 75

@starthrower68
Agreed. But they seem to be the rule rather than the exception.

@Daphne
I never said I answered any of them. First of all, if their profiles are down, you can’t respond, secondly it is a red flag. These men are doing this to serve as a placeholder, a bookmark, if you will. They compile lists of attractive females to contact when their significant other is least likely to suspect. They are scum.
Still Looking 76

Nancy@75
Yes there are some men who fall into the category of cheating scum but there are often very valid reasons to “hide” a profile. I’ve hidden my profile when I’ve wanting to take a break from dating, when I’ve been overwhelmed at work, and when I’ve been dating/corresponding with several women and just couldn’t be bothered with initiating or responding to new prospects. I’ve also hidden my profile when I was in the early stages of a relationship and I wanted to focus on one woman to see if it would lead to a committed relationship. If one assumes the worst case scenario of why a profile is hidden, he or she will be protected to some extent from the players/married daters but he or she is also risking missing out on someone who has a valid reason for hiding his or her profile.
Snazzy 77

This was such a timely post for me…

Written the day after a guy I thought could be my future husband dumped me.

We were exclusive, he called and emailed every day, asked me twice if I wanted kids, suggested we go away for the weekend in the next month (…and plan the wedding), regularly told me how much he liked me, saw me at least 4 times a week including weekends, sent my photo to his siblings and his mother was upset he didn’t send it to her, told me I was the coolest girl he’d ever dated, said he looked but couldn’t find fault with me then……….

He dumped me. He wasn’t ‘mentally engaged’. But he was so nice ( I say) sarcastically, he told me ‘there was nothing wrong with me’ . Yeah thanks buddy.

I didnt lose anything but an illusion.

Thanks to EMK and his books and blogs, although i allowed myself a day of misery, I’m not devastated and ONWARD AND UPWARDS I say as I have the freedom now to meet the RIGHT guy.
Margo 78

@Snazzy-77, good for you. You did the right thing with this one: quickly flushed the handle on the toilet…
Bill 79

Sigh.

Evan, I almost never disagree with you, but I have a quibble tonight.

As a guy, if a woman was (as the OP said) “heavy petting”, and THEN brought up the “I only have sex in a committed relationship” line, I’d think she was pulling a bait-n-switch – trying to get me to commit just to have sex.

If that was important to her, she should’ve brought it up before. Because now she’s got me worked up for no reason – she’s TEASED me (and not in a fun way!).

Had she talked about her boundaries/limits before hand, I would have no reason to complain, something you’ve said countless times regarding women believing what men tell them. I would’ve known in advance, and simply “not gone there”.

She was a tease (intentionally or accidentally), and that’s flaky for someone her age. We’re not in high-school any more – I’d run from her too.
Evan Marc Katz 80

Hey Bill,

I would think that, as a man, you’d know this really basic fact about women:

They’re not obliged to have sex with you under ANY circumstances.

They’re not obliged to have sex with you after you kiss.

They’re not obliged to have sex with you after your third date.

They’re not obliged to have sex with you if your pants are off.

In other words, it is 100% reasonable for a woman to “hook up” because she’s attracted to you, you’re having fun, and you’ve had a few drinks – and yet not want to sleep with you – especially if you’re just going to go home and search on Match.com for other women. The mere fact that you can suggest otherwise illustrates the exact PROBLEM that women face.

She’s not extorting you for a commitment, Bill. She’s protecting herself from fucking a selfish jackass. It’s different.

You don’t deserve sex because you’re turned on. You deserve sex when you demonstrate to her that you’re going to be exclusive with her. Anything less is simply selfish on your part, and completely oblivious to what HER needs are.

It’s guys like you who give men a bad name. You get to sleep with her simply because she invited you inside…and she gets what, exactly? That’s right. Nothing.

Put yourself in HER position for a second and then get a clue.

Sorry for ripping on you, bud. But, then again, you are the one who suggested that if you get to third base, you’re obligated to get to home as well.

That’s as stupid as suggesting that a woman should get a ring if she’s gone out with you for six months.
Margo 81

This is at Bill and Evan’s last comment. My initial post on this subject didn’t get through because I believe it was too explicit. Anyway…here goes: Would you guys define “foreplay” for me?? This is why I ask: There’s a guy I currently like. We’ve gone out twice so far but have known each other for awhile. Our last date was movies and not sexual at all, just tongue-kissing in the theatre a couple times.

Anyway, here’s the thing. I did not want to have sex with him on our first date, but it was at his house and the chemistry was off the charts, add to that an intimate setting and a couple bottles of wine downed.

I ended up staying over because of driving considerations and ended up in his bed sem-naked. Things got hot and heavy and then…he got “inside the gate” so to speak TWICE, once that night and once in the morning. BUT, I made him stop and “retreat” after one thrust. So, in my mind we didn’t have sex, just heavy petting. And yes, after that we had another date. So my question: is what we did ”foreplay”? I don’t think I teased hime because he said he didn’t want to go all the way that night (and I didn’t either) and I was just making sure that didn’t happen.
E. Foley 82

“She’s not extorting you for a commitment, Bill. She’s protecting herself from fucking a selfish jackass.”

Yes, yes, yes.

When I was on Match, I also had the rule that I wouldn’t have sex with someone until it was clear we were exclusive. Did a few guys bail? Yep. Did a few beg and plead like pathetic puppy dogs and then bail? Yep. Did I have my heart broken a few times? Yep.

These things happen. The question you need to ask yourself as a woman is this:

Which will hurt more: This guy dumping me for another woman AFTER we have sex? Or this guy dumping me for another woman when we’ve only fooled around a little?

If you’re the type to see sex as FUN and not coupled with love, then by all means, have all the (safe) sex you want. Have (safe) sex on the first date. Have (safe) sex with total strangers.

But if your worldview has sex & love tied together (even a little bit), you need to make a decision about your level of sexuality on a date long before your hormones enter the picture.
Margo 83

Well here’s a tibit for all you ladies: the man I’m currently interested in says that when he gets “it” right away, he’s basically done. He told me, but I think the percentage of men who actually tell women the truth like that when it comes to sex is low (I could be wrong). He emailed the next day from work, so maybe he’s not done with me. Haha. As in my previous post, I almost went all the way, but tried to salvage it in the end the only way I knew how.

So, I believe the reality is that if a woman gives it up too fast, most men will take what is on offer then not respect her in the end.
Jadafisk 84

How awesome are guys with that mentality going to be as long term partners, though?* Are women who exercise conservative sexual behavior okay with the double standard that men who’ve been around the block and back/men who’ll “go as far as you’ll let them” often espouse when it comes to who they decide to pursue for relationships and how relationship-worthy they think *they* are based on their own sexual behavior? From a medical standpoint, a woman stands to inherit the sum of that man’s sexual behavior no matter how low her “number” is or how many dates it takes for her to get comfortable with him when he’s in “relationship mode.”

*A lot of women say they can rid themselves of such men through engaging in early sex, but that seems like an inherently faulty method - there’s got to be a better, more effective solution that doesn’t enable them.
Flower 85

Evan I linked over from Facebook (under my other name:), to read your response @80.

I am clapping in agreement to SS @74 wrote

“So why not just avoid the situation altogether by not putting oneself in such a position in the first place?”

Exactly!!

If a woman is heavy petting (and knows that she’s not going all the way) and if the guy is getting hot and bothered *ahem*, it is her responsibility to stop it immediately.

Trying to be empathetic and walking a mile in a man’s shoes … if I were a guy I’d feel wronged. Women know how simple men can be they get hot and bothered very quickly.

As Evan so wisely said, men have sex with women they don’t even like.

True, he’s responsible for his self control.

As always Yes Means Yes No Means NO but women need to realize that men don’t think as women do. Again, if I were a man & a lady I whom I was dating for a brief time got kissy on a sofa or car, my male brain would be hardwired for sex.
Margo 86

@Flower 85, do we let the man off the hook? What if he starts the seduction from the start, and even invites the woman to take her clothes off in his bed?
Margo 87

In my situation, I don’t care because I like this guy, but I still fill I had the right to insist he stop because I was seduced from the minute the wine cork was popped.
Al 88

@Flower

I hope you meant to be satirical, but I think you might have been serious. Flip it around. Suppose the woman gets hot and bothered and the man says “this is too soon.” Has she been wronged?
Bill 89

I never said she was obligated to have sex Evan, please don’t pull a strawman argument – you’re better than that. What I did say was that she was being flaky, behaving like a teenager when it comes to sex, and that if she had these concerns about intimacy, she should’ve brought them up much sooner.

Notice I said I would run from her, because she was acting flaky. NOT because I didn’t get some “obligated” sex, as you put it. I’ve sent women packing over this very issue, and have no regrets about it – it’s enabled me to discover the best woman I’ve ever met.
Evan Marc Katz 90

@ Bill: You said: “Because now she’s got me worked up for no reason – she’s TEASED me (and not in a fun way!)”

Then let’s agree to strongly disagree.

You seem to think she’s a tease or “flaky” if she invites you inside, goes to second base, and doesn’t sleep with you.

I think she’s smart for protecting herself from a man who will gladly sleep with her without commitment and may or may not ever call her again.

A woman doesn’t have “intimacy” issues for not sleeping with virtual strangers, nor is she pulling “a bait and switch” for not bringing up at dinner how far she’ll go later that night.

Your refusal to concede the validity of this stance – from the standpoint of a woman – leads me to believe that the women you’ve “sent packing” have dodged a bit of a bullet. Sorry if you feel that this is insulting. I think it’s insulting to women that you think they’re playing games when all they’re trying to do is assess whether a man is interested in THEM or interested in SEX.
Bill 91

@Al # 88

Yes – regardless of gender, this kind of behavior is flaky.

Have the cojones to stand up and let people know what your limits are, like a responsible adult, BEFORE you get into the situation where it’s of importance.
Bill 92

@Evan
Wow, so you’re not going to apologize for insulting me, or putting words in my mouth?

You’ve just lost a lot of credibility Evan. Would you have tolerated that kind of insult from a reader?
Bill 93

And you continue to use ad-hominem. Wow.
Bill 94

You called me a “fucking asshole”, and you think that’s acceptable behavior?
Sarahrahrah! 95

Sorry, Bill, but you sound entitled. Let me guess: you are considered an attractive white male?

“Because now she’s got me worked up for no reason – she’s TEASED me (and not in a fun way!)”

I take issue with this statement because you put the onus of your sexuality on another person. Actually, YOU are the only one capable of getting yourself worked up and only YOU “teased” yourself. I understand that people can be aroused by another person, but if we are responsible human beings we should always *own our own actions.* You sound suspiciously like a date rapist who excuses his actions because he was “led on.”

Also… what is the BIG DEAL if you make out, but don’t have sex? I’ve dated guys with certain moral inclinations who didn’t want to have sex but wanted to do other things that contributed to my feeling very aroused. Did i get mad at them? No, of course not. Getting sexually aroused and *not* having sex is not a national tragedy, Bill. If you think it is, you might have some sexual addiction/compulsivity issues.

As a general aside to all: I’ve not dated a lot in my adult life and only have dated a little since becoming single again. It saddens me a bit to learn that so many people seem to have such a limited view of physical romance. While I love having sex, I also enjoy kissing and touching for a long time without having sex, too. I don’t know if that makes me a “tease” or not in people like Bill’s eyes, but I don’t care. If the Parisians do it, then I figure I’m in good company.
starthrower68 96

Well this is the entire problem is that we don’t keep sex in its proper place. There is a sense of entitlement out there. Sex is a wonderful thing but we have this notion as a society now that we’re entitled to a test drive. Being a responsible adult, Bill, is learning to control our urges.
MC 97

Bill #94

Evan did not call you that, he didn’t insult you either. He tried (unsuccessfully it seems) to make you understand a woman’s point of view.

Reading you all we can say is that you date to (almost exclusively?) have sex. Good luck with that! I’m sure you achieve your goal now and then, and it seems you get extremely upset when you don’t, right?

Hey, we all have our goals. Just think about this: you get lucky much more often than us women in our quest of a serious, faithful, healthy, happy commitment with a man. Let’s say you get a 20% rate of success, 1 out of 5 women you go out with end in bed with you. Congratulations, my success rate in finding a good, kind, committed, serious, mature man is, let’s say, 3% when I am VERY lucky.

And you think you have the right to complain or feel frustrated? You have no idea what is frustration man, no idea.
I pity every woman who gets close to you thinking you are more than a sex-oriented man. And remember you are the only responsible for the image you give: you haven’t addressed a single time in your posts things like “respect”, “feelings”, “considering the other person’s wishes”, “commitment” or any other thing indicating some actual appreciation of the opposite sex (other than the physical aspects).
Listen to Evan, since you haven’t learned to listen to women… Sad.
SS 98

@Jadafisk 85
How awesome are guys with that mentality going to be as long term partners, though?* Are women who exercise conservative sexual behavior okay with the double standard that men who’ve been around the block and back/men who’ll “go as far as you’ll let them” often espouse when it comes to who they decide to pursue for relationships and how relationship-worthy they think *they* are based on their own sexual behavior?

I’m standing up and clapping! Here’s something I never quite understood… so the guy Margo’s talking to admitted to her that he loses respect for a woman if she has sex too soon with him. I don’t consider that much of a “tidbit” considering how frequently I’ve heard men say that.
My question though is this… hearing a man state something like that doesn’t remotely make you question the integrity of that man? A man who says something like that is still appealing to you?
Let me finish my thought before answering… for a woman to even have sex “too soon,” typically, a man has either initiated heavy petting/making out. So, he’s saying that he’s okay with setting up a woman for potential “failure” and then he’s going to judge her for it. Meanwhile, if she “passes” the test, then she’s now “worthy” of a long-term relationship. I have heard men say that they test women in this exact manner and if she “fails” by giving in to his advances, she’s no longer relationship-worthy.
But yet, you and other women are okay with this?
One way that I got around all this was to see how the men I was dating handled physical attraction in the first place. With the man I married, he didn’t even try to put me in a situation before exclusivity in which I would have to turn down his advances to “prove” something to him. When we did go back to my house on the first few dates, he sat in a chair and I sat on the couch while we watched TV and talked. Then he would kiss me goodbye and head home. Let’s just say that it was VERY refreshing to not have to be put in a situation in which I was wondering how to say no to his advances AND to not have to wonder if he was a guy with a Madonna/whore complex who was testing me with his advances to make sure I wasn’t a “whore.”
I think its a lose-lose situation for women in general dealing with these types of men. If a woman is a “whore,” she’s judged. If she’s a “Madonna,” she’s put on a pedestal, but these men usually have been with lots of “whores” beforehand and only later feel that they deserve a “Madonna” to settle down with… and why are the “Madonnas” okay with a man who has compartmentalized them in such a way and who hold a double standard in regards to sexual activity? That it’s okay for men to have sex when they want with whomever they want, while expecting their future girlfriends or wives to have limited sexual experience?
I’m just saying… I wouldn’t take too kindly to a man who tried to get sex early, but then says he “respects me” because I didn’t give it to him… I don’t see that type of man as one with much integrity…
SS 99

@Flower 85
I am clapping in agreement to SS @74 wrote
“So why not just avoid the situation altogether by not putting oneself in such a position in the first place?”

Thanks for the support.

I think though that my bigger point was not to hold back for the man’s sake, but for your own. I just think that if a woman wants to avoid the topic of sex or avoid having to make a declaration about waiting, it helps to just leave intense physical activity out of the equation period in the early going.

I remember on one of my early dates with a guy, he invited me into his house (which made sense because it was close to the restaurant and I met him there anyway). I went inside, but I sat at the opposite end of the couch from him. Now, maybe he got the impression that I wasn’t into him whatsoever, but that wasn’t the case… I just didn’t feel like putting myself in a position where I had to have “the talk” with a guy I barely knew.

My suggestion was mainly one of self-interest for a woman who wanted to wait for exclusivity before having sex, not really about how the guy might feel.

@Starthrower68 #96
Well this is the entire problem is that we don’t keep sex in its proper place. There is a sense of entitlement out there. Sex is a wonderful thing but we have this notion as a society now that we’re entitled to a test drive. Being a responsible adult, Bill, is learning to control our urges.

I love this. Honestly, when I was dating in my late 20s and early 30s, I sometimes felt like I was regressing to high school health class or to teen church camp when teachers would tell girls that it was okay to say no, and tell boys that they wouldn’t die from “blue balls” or that they needed to just take a cold shower.

I know I’m being a little extreme with the above example (I didn’t exactly like the “no no no” all the time message from such teachers either), but it’s flat-out ridiculous when I hear 30+ year-old educated men acting like hormone-crazed 15-year-old boys. This sense of entitlement that a lot of men out here have about sex is ridiculous. I mentioned in another post how I had to cut off a man who told me he was in a transition phase in his life (personally and economically) and really couldn’t “date” me properly, but when I came up with other options that simply involved spending time together on a no-pressure basis, he said he was tired of that and ready for sex. And when I said that there would be no sex without exclusivity and commitment, he had the nerve to imply that there was something wrong with ME and that I was a prude/old-fashioned/etc., for the mere offense of deciding I wasn’t going to just have sex with him just because.

Seriously? We’re in a society where a supposedly mature man feels that he has the right to get angry at a woman he barely knows or question her because she has turned him down for sex? Ridiculous.
BeenThereDoneThat 100

Thank you, Evan, for your words (#80 and #90)
Al 101

Not all men have the absurd and frankly silly attitudes towards sex that are being represented here in many people’s perspectives. Some of us have brains, self-control (all of us do, just some men choose to pretend they don’t) and respect other people’s limits.
Evan Marc Katz 102

@Bill – Talk about putting words in one’s mouth. I did not call you a “fucking asshole”. In fact, I didn’t use either word in reference to you. I did imply, however, that you were a “selfish jackass” for thinking that women were “flaky” for not sleeping with you or not setting their sexual parameters before the hookup.

I certainly apologize for the harsh words or the misunderstanding, but until you can successfully explain exactly what you WERE talking about, I’m going to stick to my guns. Because there’s a big difference between a man bringing her to orgasm orally, only to be “blue-balled” (a no-no)…and a good, old-fashioned blow job to release your tension after you get worked up (perfectly acceptable for a woman who doesn’t want to have sex without commitment).

Are you saying that the latter woman should have told you during the date that she wasn’t going to sleep with you? Personally, I’ve always found it weird when women blurted out such proclamations like “I’m just letting you know I’m not going to sleep with you tonight” while I was parking the car.

To which I used to say: “That’s okay. I don’t sleep with women who aren’t my girlfriends.” (A very effective move, by the way, if you ever want to turn over a new leaf.)

So what ARE you trying to say that I’m so callously twisting, Bill? How do I see these woman as normal, sexual, interested, and rightfully wary, while you see them as childish and manipulative?

Here’s your chance to explain yourself – or hang yourself with your own rope.
Sayanta 103

Thanks Evan- for the response to Bill!
Margo 104

@SS-99, You make good points and a man like you describe, the hypocrite who sets a woman up to “fail” while testing her to see if she can control herself, is truly sickening. I wouldn’t like that, but be aware SS, there are a LOT of men out there like that. That line of thinking, Madonna/Whore complex IS a societal more born out of traditional family values that were in place when the country was founded.

Let’s face it: Men don’t want “loose” women as the mother of their children. There are men out there who can think rationally about the subject and acknowledge the hypocrisy of the double-standard, but the way someone is raised will always be a part of them on some level. So, that same liberal man that was raised in a traditional American family unit might not outwardly judge a woman for sleeping with him on the first date, but in the back of his mind somewhere he might be thinking, “Hmm, I wonder how many men she’s done this with…”

In the guy’s case that I currently like, and I don’t want to make excuses for him as I did cringe a bit when he made that comment, he was sexually abused as a kid. Both of his older sisters had sex with him and his brother when he was under ten, and I mean straight out intercourse. They would call them in the room, one after the other. So, there are issues there, and I knew that beforehand.

I also thank Evan for his comments to Bill. But as an aside, I will say that I view oral sex as sex. With me, a man’s not getting NOT getting a blow job on the first date or geting in between my legs-and if he does, I’m telling him to stop.;) I think if a woman does that, the man will discount her for that as well. Of course, because then he’ll be thinking, “I wonder how many men she gives blowjobs to on the first date…”
Sheba Wheeler 105

Bravo Evan! Unfortunately, rather he realizes or not, Bill has given us an example of what some men expect when they go out on a date. And it’s the very reason why Evan has been trying to empower us (meaning women) to stick to our guns and only have sex when we know the man wants us for us and not for just our bodies at the moment.
Being turned on by someone is a natural response that is often hard to control because of the power of hormones and arousal, etc. That’s why deciding whether to sleep with someone should be a mental response.
Margo 106

I also have to say to women and men, if you are going around giving your dates oral sex and you are not exclusive yet, and they are having sex with other people, it’s the very SAME thing as having unprotected sex. Whatever they have on their sexual organ or in their mouth will be transferred to YOU.,,

I don’t want to be a hypocrite, so yeah, I did give the guy I was with a “taste”, as you all know from my previous post, but I didn’t let him finish. Anyway, point being that was still a risk as I don’t know who all he’s sleeping with and we’re not exclusive in any way.
SS 107

Margo… oh yeah, I’m sure that there are tons of men who think like that… I’ve encountered plenty. That’s why I find it funny when men think that they’re telling us some deep secret when they share that they judge women for having sex too soon… I’m thinking, “Tell me something I don’t know buddy. I’ve only been hearing that since I started dating!”

However, I can only speak for myself and say that I didn’t want a “loose” man to be the FATHER of my children either… and a man’s desire not to have a “loose” woman as the mother of his children was just as valid as my desire not to have a player as the father of mine!

I think women are just as guilty of upholding a double standard by setting a sexual guideline for themselves but then not caring if a man meets that. So if a man reveals through his words that he had a Madonna/whore complex and yet had a very promiscuous sexual history, I was not interested in him.

P.S.: I personally don’t think of people as loose or whorish, etc., based on the number of sexual partners they have. What other people do with their bodies isn’t my business. I just knew that I was looking for someone who, by his actions, at least gave me the impression that he had some sexual standards as well and didn’t sleep with everything on two legs! When I didn’t have that standard, I often found myself very disgusted with the behavior and words of the men I dated who seemed quite a bit pleased with their very colorful pasts, so I stopped dealing with those guys.
Margo 108

I thought Bill would have replied to Evan by now. His lack of a response is very telling…Any man who thinks he’s entitled to sex is one who I will steer very clear of. What I want to know is does this type of man think any woman actually needs what is between his legs. They get what they want then they forget the woman’s name and number. Too many men out there to deal with the ugly, entitled scumbags.
Diana 109

Alright, I’m going to gingerly step into this territory and support both Bill and Evan, but only partially to each. I think Evan’s message of a woman waiting until a commitment for sex is right on, but I also think that Bill’s response (though maybe not stated the most eloquently) to Carol’s situation is a common and normal response by a lot of men. I can see where it could look like a “bait and switch.” I do want to stress though to Bill that it wasn’t just Carol who turned up the heat. It takes two to tango and without revealing ALL the details, we will never know who started it, flamed it, etc. A man cannot be “teased” without playing along.

IMHO, I also take issue with the thought that oral sex isn’t sex. This is the common practice and belief that a lot of today’s young people have. “I blew him real good last night, but we didn’t have sex.” I think it’s on the same level as intercourse, but without attachment; it’s just a different kind of sex.

While I wouldn’t find myself in Carol’s situation because well, for one, I don’t drink nor invite men to my place nor visit theirs so early on, and I mentally use my boundaries to keep this kind of activity from happening, if I did ever have to work with this, I wouldn’t blurt out the commitment word. I’d say something different to diffuse the situation, and talk at our next date (if there was a next date [LOL]) about how I feel re: commitment before sex.
starthrower68 110

Pleasuring someone orally and not calling it sex is pretty much the same as “I didn’t inhale”….
Jadafisk 111

SS - But these same guys complain later when their Madonna turns out to *surprise* have a low level of attraction to him in particular and/or a much lower sex drive in general. They screen for their own analogues, weed them out, then blame their results on the pool (women don’t like sex much/aren’t that attracted to men) instead of their strategy (refrain from pursuing women who show early evidence of liking sex a lot/being extremely attracted to them due to infidelity fears).

104 What makes a woman that has sex after three dates with a man she didn’t know before all that different than a woman who has sex after one? To people with “traditional family values*”, there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference, but to these guys there’s a midpoint of acceptable sexual behavior for women that’s in no way sanctioned by the church or dear old mom… too soon, and she’s not getting the call, but if she’s waiting until marriage, she’s not getting the call either.

*Which defines the conduct of pretty much every single adult woman in today’s America as akin to an abject slattern
Gem 112

The reason so many men -expect- sex so soon is because women have become sooooo liberated and free sexually speaking that they have sex on date 1, 2, 3 regularly….AND they are the aggressors.

Many single male friends have told me that they are amazed at the fast and easy sex they get and are offered by women they date. So going slow, having standards, making out a little and stopping makes one look like a freak in comparison.

I had a man tell me on our 2nd date that he wanted to “F*** my eyes out”…I calmly said, ”Does that line usually work for ya?” and I tried to joke it off just to get through the meal. He said, “What’s the big deal? We’re adults.” When I told him that sex wasnt’ going to happen, he asked me, “Don’t you like sex?”, “What’s wrong with you, are you frigid?”….you get the idea.

Men are getting used to women throwing their legs in the air as an ice-breaker and the one’s that don’t are teases or freaks. Sad.
Margo 113

Gem is right about some of these aggressive and sexually liberated women. The guy I’m currently interested in has women texting him on his cell phone things like, “Can you come over tonight?” “Can I come over tonight?” “Do you want a quicky”? Of course, he cannot be the only man experiencing this kind of stuff.
Sheba Wheeler 114

I was discussing this topic with a male friend who thought that perhaps men might read Evan’s suggestion about sex only in a committed relationship as “Uh oh. She wants commitment, and if we have sex she’ll feel like we’re engaged. Run away!” Could setting a boundary like this scare someone off who might honestly be interested in you?
Jadafisk 115

Is “Uh oh. She wants commitment…” what genuine interest sounds like? People have those kinds of thoughts (after dating for a long enough period that sex is deemed imminent, anyway) about people they’re, for lack of a better word, “meh” about. If a woman doesn’t want to sleep with a man who’s mildly interested in hopes that he may become more interested someday, can you fault her, and is she missing out on that much besides the sex? Also, I thought when it came to sexual interaction, open lines of communication were ideal…
Gem 116

Sheba,

“Could setting a boundary like this scare someone off who might honestly be interested in you?”

Yes, I think so. She is making out with a guy who’s putting the moves on and, she says, “I also want you badly, but I only sleep with guys that I know I’m in a committed relationship with.”

If I were a guy I would hear that she’s ready to be exclusive and ready to have sex tonight and waiting for my answer.

Otherwise she’d have said, “I’m attracted to you but we have to stop. I only have sex when I’m in a commited relationship and it’s too early for that.”

That’s a woman in control telling HIM that she knows what she wants (a commitment with someone), doesn’t know if it’s him (cuz it’s too soon), won’t risk her body (he’s not that cute). Kiss and goodnight.

Personally, I think the word “commitment” should come out of a man’s mouth first….when he’s asking for one. In the meantime, there are all kinds of non-verbal ways for a woman to slow down sex if she wants to while SHE flirts with other men on Match.com tomorrow.
Sheba Wheeler 117

I’m not sure I understand the difference between these two statements:
“I also want you badly, but I only sleep with guys that I know I’m in a committed relationship with.”
“I’m attracted to you but we have to stop. I only have sex when I’m in a committed relationship and it’s too early for that.”

I ask because this very thing happened to me this week and for the first time, I said, “I want you to know that I am attracted to you and I want you too, but I want us to stop because I want to have sex while in an exclusive relationship.”
The next day when we talked about it, I told him that I wasn’t trying to push him into a commitment, or cock tease him. That I just personally couldn’t handle casual sexual encounters any longer and wanted to refrain from sex until it could be a valuable experience.
He said he respected my choice, but hasn’t spoken to me since. I was devastated and starting to feel guilty for not having sex! I felt like I had done something wrong after I had finally done something right! Set a boundary and stuck with it. But now I have to deal with the pain that he’s gone and will likely not come back.
Was it a good strategy after all? I’m still working on that.
Goldie 118

@ ##114-116 – IMO, what could potentially scare a guy off in this scenario is if he thinks: “Uh-oh, she’s using sex as leverage to get me to commit.” Kind of like in that song “Paradise in the Dashboard Light” that was already mentioned on this thread.
Elizabeth 119

Speaking for myself, I like the benefit of getting to know the character of, trust and like a man before I sleep with him, no matter how long or short it takes. I do also take into account his worldview on sexuality, and endeavor to find out as much about that as I can beforehand. But I don’t always stick to that if I feel a connection in the moment. I do prefer that a man does not sleep with others if he wants to sleep with me, because that is not what I would do. I consider it a measure of his character and think that it is greedy and narcissistic behavior. I can’t say that I “require” this, because, unfortunately, it is very difficult to know for sure if they are sleeping with anyone else, or cruising the dating sites, regardless of what they tell you, or how much you might feel trust. I can often put two and two together if the man is doing or not doing things that consistently make me feel uncomfortable and just let it fade away or cut it off. I don’t think it is very useful to wait to have sex until there is a formal commitment. Too much pressure, and how do I know I want to commit until I know if we have sexual chemistry? So, there is a marked difference between sexual exclusivity and commitment, but I wonder how men reconcile the difference in their minds?
Margo 120

@Sheba-117, NO you didn’t do anything wrong. The guy is a scumbag.
kenley 121

Sheba,

I don’t think you did anything wrong. If he is gone, it just means that he was more interested in sex than in you. His interest in sex could very well mean that if you had sex with him, he still would have disappeared – and then you’d feel 1000 times worse than you do right now.
Gem 122

Sheba,

I don’t think you did anything wrong, and do not feel guilty for not having sex!!
I even believe him when he says he respects your choice…. it’s just that I honestly think that the average man who wants to have sex while he getting to know a woman (and that doesn’t make him a scum-bag necessarily) hears either one of those phrases and thinks, A.) “Oh boy, I’m not going to be having sex for quite some time…” and B.) “Here’s a girl looking for a commitment and if she digs me, she’s going to be pushing for one and I barely know her.” He’s had a timeline for sex just laid out for him and, yes, I think it may scare some men off.

Those phrases, IMO throw mystery out the window. The latter one, at least, (and I don’t like that one either) is better because the woman is saying she thinks it’s too soon for a commitment while the first choice makes it seem like she’d have sex right then if he agreed to be exclusive. I’d rather the man think he hasn’t passed YOUR tests yet.

I think most nice guys will wait until a woman is ready for sex but it’s better, IMO, if he doesn’t know EXACTLY when it’s going to happen and what your conditions are. That way, if he meets them, you know it’s not because you gave him the map; it’s because he’s being himself.

Seriously, what is the point of those phrases? To explain to him that you’re not “that kind of girl” or to let him know that sex ain’t going to be happening for awhile? Why would we imagine that it’s sexy for a man to hear either of those things so soon in dating?

The way a woman carries herself without words should tell him what he needs to know about how casual you view sex.
Margo 123

@Gem-116. If it is really early in the dating relationship, I don’t believe any rational-minded man would think the woman was making him pull his pants back up because she wanted him to commit to her right then and there.

However, if he did think that, he could simply have an adult conversation with her when things cooled down (perhaps the next day), asking her to clarify what she was expecting from him at this point in their dating relationship rather then just bailing.

It seems to me that some of you are starting to excuse men’s behavior on this topic. Is a man that horney that he can’t wait several dates for sex?? If he has good intentions toward the woman, he’ll wait. If he’s just out to satisfy his libido, he won’t. It’s that simple. So, let’s stop making excuses please ladies.

I made the guy I’m currently going on dates with stop after he actually got “inside”. He’s still around…So, if things don’t work out with him, it won’t be because of that.

There is just no reason to make excuses for shady, self-centered behavior. Some of the reasoning that is being exhibited on this thread by women is the exact same reasoning/fear that will convince a woman that she needs to “give it up” to keep a man. Then he gets it too easy, determines she doesn’t respect herself enough, and bails.

Also, I don’t think it’s so much that using the word “commitment” is off-puting; I believe a woman’s tone makes the difference. If she says it in a nasty, uppity tone, yes, that’s off-puting. I wouldn’t say what Evan said about fearing the guy would end up “looking for women on Match.com” the next day. I think that’s a bit harsh. However, I wouldn’t have any problem saying “I only sleep with men when we are dating exclusively/ or in a relationship. There is no need to say committed; being in a relationship implies that.
Sheba 124

Thank you everyone for your support. I agree with Kenley and Margo. This was only the second time I had seen this man, so to me, we weren’t anywhere near even dating regularly much less dating exclusively.

I am trying to remember Evan’s advice on when to decide to have sex: is the guy doing it because he’s interested in sex or interested in you. Given that, I think he was being more motivated by his libido than any ideas of long term involvement.
Gem 125

Margo,

I believe in showing men rather than telling them as much as possible, that’s all. Expecially in the embryonic stages of a relationship.

I think it’s more effective and has nothing to do with making excuses for men.
starthrower68 126

@ Margo #123,

I do agree with you about not excusing the bad behavior of men (not all, just the ones who behave badly). Since we can’t change it, we have to learn to successfully navigate it. So, when a guy bails because he didn’t get sex, it is as Evan says: he’s done you a favor. He’s revealed you sooner rather than later that it’s about sex, not you.