You Have To Kiss A Lot of Princes Before You Marry The Frog

Evan Marc Katz

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You’ve been through a LOT when it comes to love.

You’ve dated guys with whom you felt the most incredible connection, only to find out that they weren’t serious about you.

You’ve dated guys with whom you didn’t feel much connection at all, and hung on for awhile hoping it would develop.

You’ve dated guys who seemed great on paper, but one or both of you just couldn’t find a way to make a commitment.

Everything you did, you did for a reason, and I’m not going to second-guess any of those decisions of the past.

I am, however, going to share three things I learned this weekend at my 20th High School Reunion – and illustrate how they may apply to you…

It’s easy to question your own judgment when dating.

You may be insecure that you’re drawn to the wrong men.

You may be frustrated that you can’t help who you’re attracted to.

You may even look around at friends and wonder what they’ve figured out that you haven’t.

Questioning your own judgment is normal. But so is the opposite:

It’s easy to NEVER question your own judgment.
It’s easy to form a set of beliefs and live your life by them, even if they’re flawed.
It’s easy to find evidence to support these flawed beliefs, which is why you never question your own judgment.
It’s easy to spend years and years stuck in negative relationship patterns, and never conclude that you’re the common denominator in each situation.

Now, as you well know, being 38 and single is certainly not a crime.

To illustrate these principles, I’ve got 3 interesting anecdotes.

Now, to nostalgic people like me, a 20th reunion is a big deal. It’s not like I was super-popular in high school, but I still reflect on my high school years fondly.

At the very least, I was genuinely curious about what happened to all these people whom I once considered myself close friends.

One friend, in particular, is a lot like me. The only difference I’ve seen is that, as we’ve gotten older, I’ve found a measure of humility and he has not.

So while I went into the reunion telling my wife, “Don’t let me talk about myself. Make sure I’m listening and asking questions,” my friend Brian’s impetus to return for the reunion was to show everybody how great he was.

And it’s not like he’s wrong – he’s an impressive guy.

But what Brian failed to recognize was that he wasn’t “better” than everyone else who get married at 30 and had 2 kids – he was, as I saw it, just less likely to compromise in love.

His decision not to compromise meant that he’s been extremely successful in his career, he’s traveled around the world, he’s dated models. It also means he’s 38 and single.

Now, as you well know, being 38 and single is certainly not a crime.

But it is a choice.

And while Brian was looking down on all the married suburbanites who couldn’t hop on a flight to Morocco, I was sort of envying them.

Jesse took his kids to Jay, who was his local pediatrician.
Barry took his kids to Stacey, who is a speech pathologist.
Dan had to get up early the next day to drive his kids to soccer practice.

This is, to me, the American dream.

And yet all Brian could say was how sad it was that none of our peers had grown because they’re still living where we grew up in Long Island.

On the contrary, I thought they had grown tremendously. In fact, all of the happily married people grew to understand how important it was to compromise in love.

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112 Comments »Filed Under Dating

112 Responses to “You Have To Kiss A Lot of Princes Before You Marry The Frog”

1. my honest answer 1

   Reunions are the worst, because everyone is just trying to justify their choices the only way they know how – by disparaging other’s choices. Instead, we should all just be reminded that we chose what was right for US.

2. Kate 2

   Wonderful post Evan! Your comments about Brian reminded me of a song I heard when I was in high school by Charlene, called “I’ve Never Been To Me.” The lyrics were about a woman’s version of Brian, who saw the world with a glamorous life, but never fell in love and had a family with that one man. I didn’t understand what that song meant, but something about the melody and the images spoke to me, almost like a foreshadow of what was to come in my life.
   I sort of feel that way myself now. I wasn’t able to find the right guy, so I focused on my career, and I traveled. They were wonderful and fun times. But I still feel that emptiness. Hopefully it is not too late for me.
   Here are the lyrics to that song:
   Hey lady, you lady, cursing at your life
   You’re a discontented mother and a regimented wife
   I’ve no doubt you dream about the things you’ll never do
   But, I wish someone had talked to me
   Like I wanna talk to you…..

   Oh, I’ve been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run
   I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun
   But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free
   I’ve been to paradise but I’ve never been to me

   Please lady, please lady, don’t just walk away
   ‘Cause I have this need to tell you why I’m all alone today
   I can see so much of me still living in your eyes
   Won’t you share a part of a weary heart that has lived million lies….

   Oh, I’ve been to Niece and the Isle of Greece while I’ve sipped champagne on a yacht
   I’ve moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed ‘em what I’ve got
   I’ve been undressed by kings and I’ve seen some things that a woman ain’t supposed to see
   I’ve been to paradise, but I’ve never been to me

3. daisy 3

   Great article!  Love how the comparisons make you think about what’s real and  VALUABLE  in life.. 
   I always fast forward to old age, and ask myself what would I have been most proud of?
    
   Yes, I too thought I had my prince, and he didn’t turn out to be after all… it looked good on the outside for awhile..
   Looking forward to focusing on real qualities and characteristics for a strong relationship

4. ileana 4

   Another great post I just love this blog. 
   I think you get guys like Brian everywhere… I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but i think that in his ‘looking down’ on the others, who were settled down, and his bragging about how cool his life is, he was actually just trying to mask an ounce of envy.
   And while Brian was looking down on all the married suburbanites who couldn’t hop on a flight to Morocco, (…) -  You see, while the others indeed lack the flexibility which Brian has (because of his lack of commitment), Brian lacks the love and security the others have. Eventually, these guys too could hop on a flight to Morocco… But they have to plan it a few weeks in advance, that’s all Brian, on the other hand, can’t find THE ONE and have gorgeous kids even if he ‘planned ahead’.
    

5. Lily2 5

   Great post, Evan…as usual

6. Helen 6

   Evan, I don’t know. I am very happy that YOU are happy, because it sounds as though you have a wonderful wife and daughter. And I made the same choices you did. But I honestly don’t think that everyone is cut out to be family people as we are. Some people really are not meant to have children. There is nothing wrong with that. Many times I have questioned myself whether I was meant to have children. And I’m not the only parent who feels that way on occasion.
    
   In fact, I’d go so far as to say that if an adult doesn’t feel the compulsion to have children, he or she shouldn’t. Parenting is not for everyone, and it can hurt children to have parents who don’t want them. Maybe one could go even further and say that not everyone is meant to be in a long-term relationship. I think we work from the assumption that this is what everyone wants and should have, but maybe for some people, that isn’t the case. And it doesn’t mean that they’re unhappy or pathetic – although society certainly does have a way of making them feel looked down upon. This is unfair.
    
   Perhaps Brian really is happy with his single, childfree life; but felt the need to justify it at the reunion because he didn’t want to feel judged by others who would label him a loser for not being married. Sometimes it feels hard to pursue one’s own dreams and aspirations without caving in to the expectations of society – that by a certain age, you should have X and be doing Y. No one is wrong in this scenario you describe, as long as they are genuinely happy.
    

7. Evan Marc Katz 7

   And that’s the point, Helen: I didn’t get the sense that Brian was deeply happy, no more than my smart, strong, successful women clients who have everything are “happy”. Most people long for connection. And even though there isn’t much of a stigma anymore to being single (as HALF of the US is single), people still very much choose love.

8. Ruby 8

   Just because Brian isn’t yet married with 2 kids, doesn’t mean that it’s too late for him. He could easily be married in the next couple of years. I’m not sure if Brian said he wanted an Ivy League supermodel or that’s what EMK inferred by his single status. Maybe he is better off having never been married at this point in his life than being divorced, as many of my classmates at my 30th reunion were.

   Helen is correct, not all of us want children. I haven’t wanted them, but it did feel strange to be at my 30th reunion with so many people talking about their kids. High school reunions are a breeding ground for that sort of questioning, comparing, and self-doubt. People aren’t necessarily happier when they make conventional choices, but there is some comfort in knowing that you’re following a well-tread path.

9. Goldie 9

   @ Ruby #8:
    
   “Maybe he is better off having never been married at this point in his life than being divorced, as many of my classmates at my 30th reunion were.”
    
   Similar experience here. Last HS reunion I went to, we were 19-20, everyone talked about their recent or upcoming weddings. and those of us that weren’t married yet were reprimanded by our teacher for “falling behind” (true story). Sure enough, everyone who was married then, got divorced since. (Then again, so did I, so who am I to judge.)
    
   “People aren’t necessarily happier when they make conventional choices, but there is some comfort in knowing that you’re following a well-tread path.”
    
   Not to mention there’s safety in numbers. If everyone at the reunion is talking about changing diapers, then you’ll feel like a part of the “in” crowd if you, too, talk about changing diapers.
    
   Then again, Brian brought it upon himself by saying “how sad it was that none of our peers had grown”. That’s quite an assumption! Why not assume instead that everyone has grown in their own way, whether they have a family and kids or not?

10. Jesse 10

    I don’t get it. Aren’t you saying the same thing about him that he’s saying about the other people? Maybe you’re both still the same as you were, even though you both think  you’ve changed.

11. JM 11

    I think the grass is always greener on the other side and I think as single, child-free people, we always feel like we’re justifying our choices.  Married people with kids can be quite smug and they often look down on the “selfish” who choose travel, work, sports, hobbies, charities, etc. over children.  I think you should reconsider Brian’s actions and consider that he was simply being defensive, and for good reason.

     know a lot of people married with kids who, once you know them very well, would tell you they wish they’d waited for kids, they wish they had the time and money to travel . . . etc. and they envy the lives of the single and child-free.  I don’t think they would give up their kids for the world, but it does make me believe the smugness is a put-on, much like you think Brian’s showing off was. 

    As for me, I’ve been on both sides of the table as I was a step-parent for over five years to three children.  Their mother was out of the picture about 85% so I was full-time.  We devoted our lives to them.  We had no relationship.  I had no time for me.  I was fat, miserable, lonely and basically felt my life had been put on-hold for all that time.  I left that relationship only six months ago and I’ve already travelled to two different countries, lost over 20 lbs., am training for my first marathon, found a new job with a huge raise in pay, and am happier and healthier than I’ve been in five years.  So, no, I don’t think kids and marriage is always the way to go.

    Lastly, what if you’re on a date with someone who is really nice and not bad looking, not perfect, but there’s nothing wrong with him, but the thought of kissing him or even holding hands with him repulses you because there’s just no attraction or chemistry?  Are you suggesting we keep trying with him? 

12. Evan Marc Katz 12

    @JM “What if the thought of kissing him or even holding hands with him repulses you because there’s just no attraction or chemistry? Are you suggesting we keep trying with him?”
    
    No. Not remotely. I’m not sure why people have such a hard time understanding the concept of compromise. You do it every day. You do it in your job. You do it with your home. You do it with yourself.

    That doesn’t mean that your job SUCKS and your apartment is a HOVEL and you’re fat and SLOVENLY; it means you accept imperfection. Do the same with the man you’re dating (and know he’s doing the same for you) and you stand a much greater chance of finding love than if you hold out for some magical feeling based on attraction and chemistry alone. Real life validates my approach, I assure you.

13. CMN 13

    Evan,

    I was on the same thought track as JM when you speak about compromise. Can you give some examples of compromise you speak of? In dating I understand the idea that your future husband may not be 6’2″ with blond hair and blue eyes and you should compromise on that but I get the vibe from your posts that you are saying to compromise “the feeling” just to have a person in your life! In a recent experience, I dated someone for 8 month who, from the beginning, made me feel uneasy, I never really wanted to be intimate with him and we never had that much to talk about because I thought I was ”compromising” and accepting someone for who they were. I got out of the relationship and am happy I did but I guess I don’t truely grasp what you are telling us to compromise on?

    Any insight would be amazing.     

14. Reg 14

    I totally get this.  We do compromise everyday in something. I’m currently online with a man who is probably not my type but I’m not going to discard this person because he doesn’t seem to LOOK like my kind of guy.  A man that I’m not with anymore is like Brian, but worse in that he doesn’t travel, he doesn’t have a good job, and he doesn’t date supermodels, but he wants to and thinks that the image is more important than the real person that would love him unconditionally, which would be me…. However, he has chosen his path, without me in it, by the way he treated me and our relationship, and I’m finally beginning to believe that it’s HIS loss.

15. Evan Marc Katz 15

    @CMN – You’re going back to that black and white world again. As if it’s either “the feeling” or “he makes me feel uneasy, I never want to be intimate with him, we never had much to talk about.”

    There’s a HUGE middle ground between those two things.

    If “the feeling” is a “10″ chemistry and the “thought of kissing him makes me want to gag” is a “2″ chemistry, how about you find a nice “7″ chemistry (with a “10″ compatibility based on kindness, values, commitment and consistency)? That’s the foundation for an amazing life.

    This is what I did, this is what I encourage you to do, and if you haven’t found it yet, you haven’t been looking long enough, hard enough, or investing your energy in the right guys.

16. CMN 16

    My question is more “What aspects of a man and a relationship should I compromise on?”

17. Evan Marc Katz 17

    Believe it or not, this isn’t the right forum for your question since the comments are supposed to be about the original post, but I’ll briefly answer:

    What you can’t compromise on: values, kindness, consistency, effort, desire for marriage and/or kids.

    What you can compromise on: everything else.

    Those who refuse to compromise on everything else leave themselves a very shallow pool of applicants. I compromised on age, religion, geography, intellectual curiosity. But not in such a way that causes me great discomfort. My wife is 3 years older than I am. I’m a Jewish athiest, she’s a Catholic believer who never goes to church. She lived in North Hollywood (ugh) when we first met. She’s not a big reader for pleasure or into personal growth. That’s fine. I am and I don’t need her to think just like I do. The reason I’m with her is that she’s the BEST PERSON I KNOW. She’s cool, patient, supportive, down to earth, funny, social, open to anything, and family oriented.

    I didn’t invent this stuff, you know, but I feel like I cracked the code and want to share it with everyone. You can be very happy once you give up the narcissism that your partner has to be either just like you or “better” than you.

18. CMN 18

    Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for straying from the original topic. You give wonderful advice.

19. Shay 19

    “What you can’t compromise on: values, kindness, consistency, effort, desire for marriage and/or kids.

    What you can compromise on: everything else.”

    Very well said, Evan! I’m still trying to find my frog though!

20. david 20

    There’s a recent phenomena I’ve been seeing on Match.com, which is relatively new — I don’t remember it 8 years ago or in ’96 when I originally signed on to match – is what I’ll call the “George Clooney Ideal” — women basically describing a George Clooney type down to the type a blazer he would wear — “you must command a room when you walk into it” “have clothes that would not be out of place in Esquire” “over 6 feet” with all his hair (of course), make 6 figures (of course)…quite frankly, I don’t see a lot of guys like this in real life and I can’t imagine there’s many signing up for match at $25/month…. Look, I’m not looking for Angelina Jolie (“she lights up a room when she walks in, turning heads”)…I just want someone pretty enough I’m attracted to them, nice / interesting enough and warm enough….

21. nathan 21

    I think it’s extremely important not to do things just because you want to “fit in.” It concerns me how many people choose to get married and have children because they think that’s “the American dream” or because “everyone else is doing it.” Do we need to make compromises when it comes to sustaining long term, committed relationships? No doubt. But what’s the motivation behind those compromises? That’s what I’m often asking myself and others. If you realize the person you’re with is an excellent partner worth making some changes in your life for, then go for it. Make those changes. Don’t be rigid. But if you’re compromising because you’re afraid of being alone, or standing out at your high school reunion, or whatever – for god’s sake, don’t go there. Especially if you haven’t brought children into the world yet. Too many kids are suffering right now, as I type this, because their parents wanted to fill a void in themselves and didn’t think about what that might mean 5 or 10 years down the road.

22. Evan Marc Katz 22

    No, David. That’s YOUR insecurity speaking. There’s nothing wrong with describing your ideal partner online. Everyone realizes that these are not literal checklists, except, apparently, you. I wouldn’t be bothered by these women or intimidated by these women. I would write a kick-ass profile that’s funny and unique, compose a short, confident, witty first email specifically tailor to each woman, and watch as these women give you a chance, despite the fact that you’re not George Clooney.

23. Still Looking 23

    EMK – Every time you speak of your wife you do so with such adoration.  She is truly fortunate to have found a frog like you!

24. david 24

    ah much better — that’s the kind and measured EMK I look forward to reading… The “apparently” part is / was an unnecessary dig at a loyal fan and reader working on himself…

25. BDD 25

    Way to many frogs! Awesome post! Thank you!

26. Saint Stephen 26

    I think a lot of us in this generation are often self centered and care so much about our happiness rather than look at the big picture ahead.
    If our parents had our mindset we wouldn’t be in this world to exhibit our selfish and hedonistic proclivities. 
    It perplexes me that a lot of intelligent and innovative folks do not see the need to pass on their genetic code and chose to die with it. How sad, when we all know that strong brilliant children will eventually become future leaders.
    Irrespective of our various accomplishment children still remain the best legacy. 
    And why would anyone capable of putting new people into this world PREFER to die without  having offspring at their side? To me the most important day in any man’s/woman’s life is the day his/her first child is born.  

    And back to the main topic. Yes we all have to get off our high horse and settle. No one is that SPECIAL! That is why some societies created arranged marriages because they obviously understood we are just people who need each other to cohabitate and reproduce. Life isn’t thrills & booms or movies.
    No matter what you do or how long you wait, in the end both men and women will eventually have to “settle” – there is no perfect mate, perfect job, or perfect anything anywhere. Welcome to real life baby!
     

27. Sherell 27

    Evan I get your point and I hope when you go back to your 30th or 40 reunion  all those happy people with kids are still happy and married.  If nothing else atleast be happy . What you may find is that your friend is now married and mostly everyone else is divorced or remarried and he is showing you pictures of his litlle 5 year old kid at 50.  We all have to go at our oww rhythm!!

28. JM 28

    I think I get it.  What I’m hearing isn’t really about compromising, it’s about giving someone a chance, someone who is outside of your ideal man or woman.  Especially in online dating, we don’t know if there is chemistry or not until you meet and clearly, the more you’re willing to go outside of your comfort zone for, the more people you will meet and the more opportunities you will have at finding a partner. 

    Personally, because I don’t have a type and I enjoy intelligence with average looks moreso than really hot jerks or idiots, I meet a lot of men I wouldn’t look twice at on the street.  Sometimes I think there is no reason why I shouldn’t go out with him again, but then I realize that the thought of merely kissing the guy makes me very uncomfortable.  I can’t compromise on that!    

29. Saint Stephen 29

    @JM
    I don’t know how you define compromise. Giving people that do not fit into your ideal a chance is compromising.

30. Saint Stephen 30

    @Sherell
    You know what they said about life begins at 40?

    Inasmuch as i know he’s still probably gonna make a great young dad at his early fifties or late forties, yet i’ll wouldn’t deny the fact that some men his age would be playing golf or basketball with their children (or perhaps expecting their grand children).  

31. Saint Stephen 31

    Still Looking Said (#23)
    Every time you speak of your wife you do so with such adoration.  She is truly fortunate to have found a frog like you!
    Lol  

32. Gina 32

    I’m not looking for a prince, and would be happy with a regular, ordinary guy who loved me unconditionally. Unfortunately, I have not been able to meet one yet. So, in the meantime, I live my life in a manner that makes me happy, which means traveling all over the world, buying myself a house, spending time with friends and family, and adopting a little dog from a rescue shelter.  I’ve also been thinking of becoming a foster parent or a big sister to a disadvantaged teenaged girl. Like my late mother used to always say, “You have to create your own happiness.”

33. Kate Candy 33

    Wow!  What a fairy tale.  Married people are incredibly happy.  The rich, single guy is secretly miserable.  Everyone can get married if they just learn to compromise.  I think there’s something dangerous in this way of thinking. There’s nothing wrong with women who are not married.  There’s no magic cure for singleness.  Marriage won’t make an unhappy or empty person happy.  As for your marriage, Evan, we really only hear your side of the story, and we don’t know what your wife brought to the table that made you commit.

    I think your blog is entertaining, but it’s also not very women-friendly.  There are certain truths that you don’t take into account. The first one being that there is no guarantee of a soul mate.  The second one is that the unattractive middle-income earning guy can love unconditionally.  And the third one is that unconditional love exists.  Love is always conditional.  I would say that your marriage would not survive in the face of infidelity or addiction.

    Marriage is a contract.  It is not a fairy tale.  I know it’s good for business to promote the happy ever after, but it seems irresponsible.  Irresponsible because you’re offering a product–unconditional love–that you cannot deliver.

34. nathan 34

    Saint Stephen – there are 7 billion people on this planet already. I don’t think everyone needs to be making more babies, especially if they aren’t inclined to parenthood in the first place. It’s insulting to suggest that those who choose to not have children are selfish and hedonistic. The two issues are completely separate. And frankly, there are plenty of selfish and hedonistic parents in this world.

35. Diana 35

    I agree with Helen (#6). I believe the reason why Brian acted as he did is because deep down, he feels an insecurity about the choices that he has made, and he knows (as does everyone else) that their choices are going to be display and judged at a reunion. His related defensiveness, and mild attacking of others was a way of protecting his choices; I’ll strike first before you do.
     
    But feeling insecure about your choices doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not happy with them. A lot of times, the insecurity comes from not having the inner strength to uphold your choices in front of others when they and society may seriously question them. While it is true that society isn’t as quick to judge or as hard on those individuals who choose to remain single, and gasp, childless as it used to be, there are still some serious stereotypes hanging around and stigmas attached. For example, the recent article discussed here about why a woman remained single for eight years, or the man at 40 who hasn’t settled down.

36. Honey 36

    As long as I don’t have to have kids, there’s a lot of room for compromise.  I will admit I got lucky, if you don’t want children that limits your options A LOT.

37. Jesse 37

    Kate Candy@33: Agree.

38. Jesse 38

    Nathan@34 and Diana@35: Agree. Marriage and kids aren’t for everyone, and not everyone who has these things is happy. Not everyone who doesn’t have these things is unhappy. Gross generalizations going on here.

39. Goldie 39

    @ St Stephen #26, As a mother, I find it highly offensive that someone views my sons as purely genetic material. Also, what about the not-so-bright, the chronically ill, the unattractive? By this logic, looks like it is OK for them not to reproduce? Ugh, so many things wrong with that comment, I am not sure where to begin.
     
    Also, IMO, it is way too early for “your generation” to be having children. For the love of FSM, kids! Get your careers off the ground first! Or would that be too hedonistic?

40. Shay 40

    Well said, Kate Candy!

    Marriage is not a fairy tale. Really. I think it involves 2 people choosing each other every single day of their lives together. In the event that either one or both stops doing that, there is no love, no marriage. So, yes, love is not unconditional.

    I think as soon as people give up the idea of finding a soul mate that fits the picture of their ideal partner perfectly, they would be able to find someone and be happy.

    I know that ever since I decided not to be too critical, I found that some guys fits some of my criteria.        

41. katie 41

    I don’t think you can compromise on attraction/chemistry. The marriages that I have seen fail the most are those where the girl or guy just isn’t “into” their partner. They may love them because of certain characteristics or qualities, but that pull isn’t there. That seems to be doom for the couple. Most marriages need to be able to reflect back on that heat in the beginning to survive the stress/familiarity/drudgery that comes with domestic living (especially with infants/toddlers etc.)

42. Ruby 42

    Getting married at 30 doesn’t ensure that you’ll still be married 10 or 20 years later. Having kids doesn’t mean that they’ll be at your side on your deathbed, nor does it guarantee fulfillment. I have women friends who wanted kids, but it didn’t work out for them, still, I’m sure they don’t feel that their lives are wasted. Waiting to get married doesn’t necessarily mean that you are seeking perfection; perhaps you’re just not ready yet or haven’t met the right person. Some people never want to marry, and some marry, divorce, and decide that marriage isn’t for them. Sorry, but there are no guarantees in life, nor is there one perfect recipe for living for every person. 

43. Zann 43

    Who invented high school reunions, anyway, and why do we make ourselves go to them?  They’re always one big, fat Comparison Party. The vast majority of people attending are sizing others up and either feeling superior or inferior to them. Why else have a reunion? Because if I was truly interested in and caring about my classmates, I probably would have stayed in touch with them over the years and wouldn’t need to check up on them one evening every 10 years.

    As for the post itself, I thought it was insightful. I didn’t get the impression that EMK was saying marriage and kids are the only route to happiness. I’ve known guys just like Brian, and for whatever reasons, they have no intention of settling down, ever, so why judge that? Hopefully he will make that clear to any woman he decides he wants to pursue — model or not.  

    But @ St. Stephen (@#26, 29-31) — not only is your diatribe about the virtues of procreating slightly off-topic, it’s also a tad creepy and narcissistic. As Nathan so eloquently pointed out (#34), the last thing this over-loaded planet needs is people being encouraged to keep the babies coming. Choosing not to have children is not selfish — in fact, it’s wise and responsible. What you’re implying (and not very subtly) is that those of us who consider ourselves bright with “good genes” have a duty to procreate, or the world will be over-run with….The Mediocre! Not to mention those with disabilities or other challenges. Poverty for example. Now, what I find selfish is adults who choose to have children for the sole purpose of creating little replicas of themselves. So they can step back proudly and say: Look what I made! And if the child is successful, these parents congratulate themselves because they’re very sure it was all their doing. In other words, it’s all about the parents and their need to have their highly-evolved seed carried into eons beyond. 

    Marriage and parenting are not for everyone. Come to think of it, neither are high school reunions.

44. Lisa 44

    Evan, how would you coach Brian?
    I know so many men like that. They go through women like they change their underwear, always looking for that special female that blows away their minds. Never find her though, even if they date Yale-educated models.
    I will put it quite bluntly: These men are like cancer because they eat up women’s love energy and leave them emotionally unavailable to other men.
    Do these types of men ever seek your coaching?

45. Saint Stephen 45

    @Goldie
    I’m sorry if my post sounded offensive- not my intent.
    By my observations i discovered that career minded individuals are too often the one’s putting off family life.
    And it seems they are unconsciously trying to imbibe into me the illusion that having careers often comes with a price- of not raising families.

    Whenever a person says family life isn’t for everyone, in my opinion i view it as a lazy man’s way of justifying himself by saying success isn’t for everyone. Agreed- success isn’t for everyone. Nothing says it must be you.

    Goldie Said:
    Get your careers off the ground first! Or would that be too hedonistic? No!! But if that translates into playing the field too long and having unrealistic expectations of your significant other to the point of finally having to put off family life, then yes that is selfish and hedonistic- in my view. 

    Kate Candy Said:
    The first one being that there is no guarantee of a soul mate. 
    Kate, By my experience there is a guarantee that Everyone has a soul mate. Sadly they don’t always come packaged (Exactly how we want them to be).
    Also your perception of soul mate will consequently determine if you will ever find one.
    There are 7 billion people all over the world, therefore anyone who couldn’t find a soul mate simply refused to allow his/her soul to mate with someone else. 

    @Nathan
    Let me put it this way. There are 7 billion people in this planet and you and i are still searching for that special someone. Why couldn’t we just be contented with having 7 billion all around us? why is it possible to feel lonely in the midst of 7 billion people? Perhaps we could arrive at a logical answer that the 7 billion around the world are of relative less importance to us when it gets to the core of our personal well-being. What matters to us isn’t the 7 billion people around us. What matters is those we could actually feel and call our own. 
    It seems to me you want to enjoy the luxury of having a love life while inadvertently depriving someone else of that. Imagine if some else had deprived you- oh!!.. we wouldn’t even be having this discourse.
      

46. Jadafisk 46

    7 billion… about 2/3rds of whom english speakers can’t even communicate with, the vast majority of the rest they will never meet, even if they tried to meet 200 new people a day for 10 years straight. Why do people say this? The vast majority of partners are selected from an exceedingly small pool of candidates from inside or on the periphery of a person’s social circle/physical location/age range/social class/educational strata/ethnic background. The good news is that for most people, that’s more than enough folks to find a spouse. Also, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with adopting and raising children to carry on the part of you that matters the most – your values. Additionally, while it’s a path walked by relatively few people – so the handwringing is unwarranted, population decreases are caused by people having 2 kids instead of 4, rather than none instead of 2 - having a family without children is a perfectly valid choice to make that can and does lead to happiness among those who make it.

    Also, I think it’s more about loving the life you have rather than making a choice. Most people don’t have the choice of being successful, reaching the apex of their career (hell, choosing or having one in the first place), becoming wealthy or having real power in the world to turn their back on in favor of family and love. So they accept life’s more common pleasures. It makes them happy, but that doesn’t mean that success wouldn’t do the same, nor that they’d make the same declaration if success were in the cards for them. But it’s probably a bad bet… the person who seeks success before all else and fails (as the odds say they will) will probably be way unhappier than the person who accepts what life is handing out to the other people around him/her and finds contentment with it. The person who seeks love before all else and fails is *deeply* unhappy, but their odds of abject failure in this endeavor are just less likely.

47. Gina 47

    @ Ruby #42: I agree with what you wrote 100%. Bottom line: There are no guarantees in life.

48. nathan 48

    “It seems to me you want to enjoy the luxury of having a love life while inadvertently depriving someone else of that. Imagine if some else had deprived you- oh!!.. we wouldn’t even be having this discourse.”
     
    You’re trying to guilt and shame me, buddy. And I’m not going there. Just because we can reproduce does not mean we must reproduce. I am not bound by some divine contract to give birth to a child solely because I was born. Cultural and/or religious narratives that say we must have children to be consider worthy as adults are just narratives to me – stories people pressure and oppress each other with.
     
    If I choose to have children, it will be because I love and am committed to someone, and we both want to bring a child in this world.
     
    I find many of your comments sexist, to be blunt. You seem totally ok blasting women who choose to focus on aspects of life other than family, but I don’t get the sense that you hold men to similar standards. Furthermore, you’re speaking in a manner of such absolute certainty that is clearly not backed up by much experience, which many commenters here have picked up upon, and are quite irritated with. How could you possibly know that each one of us has a “soul mate” out there? Or even more so, how could you possibly know that those who don’t find a good match simply didn’t believe in soul mates and refused to “accept” the right person?
     
    Life is a hell of a lot more complicated than your narrative suggests it is. What about adopted children? What about people who can’t conceive children? If everyone is so focused on building nuclear families, who will build our communities, volunteer, build the small businesses that drive our local economies, grow the food we eat? Who will support the elders who have lost their children, or who have children that can’t/won’t help take care of them? Who will tend to the environment around us all? Who will do all the things that are not necessarily tied to nuclear family life, but ARE necessary to having strong communities? 
     
     
     
     
     
     

49. Saint Stephen 49

    @nathan
    My apologies. i concede not everyone would be inclined for parenthood. yet i’m aware no single person enjoys the responsibilities that comes with child rearing. It’s just like going to college to get a degree, i believe when folks do that they certainly do it starring at the future- not the present.

    I’m surprised you found my comment sexist when i never specified it to a particular gender. My comments applies to both genders. If you don’t get the sense that i hold men to that same standard, do you think i advocate raising up families without husbands? The original instigator of my comment was Brian and he’s a man.

    And as regards to soul-mate. I said it depends on your perception of soul mate. A woman who views George Clooney as a soul mate will eventually wound up believing she doesn’t have a soul mate. We all know Clooney is neither willing to settle down nor permanently remain with a particular lady. This has nothing to do with Experience. Nathan take a look around you and tell me you haven’t seen ugly people, uneducated people, disabled people, even poor people settling down.
    Nathan, lets rewind to centuries past. folks seldom traveled more than 500 miles from their birthplace, yet they still managed to find their soul mates and spend the rest of their lives. Fastforward to Today, we travel the world easily and often live far from our place of birth. Yet we rapidly fail to do what our ancestors did successfully.

    Nathan said: 
    Life is a hell of a lot more complicated than your narrative suggests it is. What about adopted children? What about people who can’t conceive children? If everyone is so focused on building nuclear families, who will build our communities, volunteer, build the small businesses that drive our local economies, grow the food we eat? Who will support the elders who have lost their children, or who have children that can’t/won’t help take care of them? Who will tend to the environment around us all? Who will do all the things that are not necessarily tied to nuclear family life, but ARE necessary to having strong communities? 
    Everything you mentioned are not exclusively to be carried out by single childless individuals. Angelina Jolie had 3 biological children yet adopted another 3 from 3rd world countries. Talking about people who can’t conceive is off point because i directed my comment to people capable of conceiving. Most famous men (like steve jobs & bill gates) who had impacted the world are family men. Many volunteers are family people. Most farmers are family men. Many small scale entrepreneurs are family men. Many Ecologians are family men. Many soldiers are family men. Single childless people simply chose to remain such, not because they are contributing more than family people in building communities. Your logic is flawed.     
     
     

50. Helen 50

    nathan, I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Stephen on a point, but I too do not see any evidence that single people do more for the community at large than married people/parents.  And here I’m not talking about the mega-rich like Angelina Jolie or Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, but ordinary people in our own communities.

    Not that I think single people have any obligation to be more community-focused just because they’re not married or don’t have children. They don’t deserve that kind of pressure. In fact, why do we need to make it such a divide? Single and coupled people are equally valuable members of society.  Whether one chooses to engage more in community activities does not depend on marital or parental status.

51. nathan 51

    You assume that I meant to exclude “family men” from all those questions I mentioned, when the real point was that it takes diversity to make a thriving community. Sure, people raising children are part of the equation – I’d never said they weren’t. Nor did I want to suggest that single people are necessarily “more involved” in their communities than couples with children. I’m not interested in creating a moral hierarchy, whereas you seem to be doing just that, shaming people who choose to not have children.
     
    Your notion of “settling down” seems to require having children. I simply disagree with that view. It can include or not include having children. People can have completely full lives in long term partnership or marriage without having and/or being the primary care giver of children. In fact, some of these people might be able to help multiple other couples with their children because they aren’t focused on “their own kids.” 
     
    Your view of the past is romanticized. Many people were forced into marriages with someone that wasn’t remotely their “soul mate.” Women were considered the legal property of their husbands for centuries, and it’s only been in the past 60-70 years that most women had any real mobility to choose their partners. There was also the commonplace early deaths of mothers in childbirth or from diseases, and fathers in warfare, awful factory and farming accidents, and diseases, which completely blows the idea of being with one’s soul mate for decades on end. Women who lost their husbands sometimes ended up with brother-in-laws or male cousins of their husband. Men who lost their wives often remarried not out of love, but because they needed someone to care for their children. And if you think infidelity is a modern phenomenon, you’re sorely mistaken.
     
    When I speak of the world having 7 billion people, and that it’s ok for some to choose to not have children, I’m speaking from a place where we aren’t – collectively – in need of having most everyone having children to maintain our population. I remember having a long discussion with two of my former ESL students, women from Ethiopia who had large families. They couldn’t believe it when I said I might not have children. But then we started considering the circumstances they came from. Given the conditions in Ethiopia, it’s not uncommon to lose at least a few children to malnutrition, malaria, and other issues that just aren’t common here in the U.S. Furthermore, if you were a rural family, trying to run a farm, you needed enough children to keep things going. Having a big family meant you had a better chance to maintain a livelihood. Again, something that just isn’t the case here in the U.S. for the most part. Even though I still think it would be just fine for someone living in a country like Ethiopia to choose to not have children, the encouragement to have children makes more sense there than here. 
     
    As for those “family men” you mention who have greatly impacted the world, you might want to consider how their decisions impacted the lives of their children and spouses. Martin Luther King Jr. was an amazing leader who gave our nation and the world many gifts, and helped liberate a hell of a lot of people, but he wasn’t that great of a husband, and his parenting was “uneven” as well. Steve Jobs had a child he essentially disowned for years. And there are plenty of other examples amongst powerful “family men.” (Interesting that you don’t mention women at all in that list of yours).
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

52. Saint Stephen 52

    @Jadafisk Said:
    having a family without children is a perfectly valid choice to make that can and does lead to happiness among those who make it.
    You are one of the Women i respect so much on this blog but still i respectfully disagree with the above comment. I’m not disputing if is a valid choice or not, All i’m saying is there isn’t anyway you can define or describe a family without children coming into the picture. going by that rational is absolutely impossible to have a family without a child.

    According to dictionary.com
    1 a) 
    a basic social unit consisting of parents and their children, considered as a group, whether dwellingtogether or not: the traditional family.

    b) a social unit consisting of one or more adults together with the children they care for: a single-parent family. 

    2) the children of one person or one couple collectively:

    3) the spouse and children of one person:

    4) any group of persons closely related by blood, as parents,children, uncles, aunts, and cousins: 

53. Chow 53

    I find the article very biased and right-wing/conservative.  As Nathan accurately pointed out, getting married and having children was what previous generations were socialised into believing would lead to a fulfilling life.  Times have changed and society is opening up.  Now, people have many other opportunities to seek fulfilment.

    I view marriage (and definitely having children) as a way of tying oneself down, especially given the financially strapped times we’re facing now. It is up to individuals to decide whether they are prepared to be bound in this manner.

    I don’t agree that people should lower their standards just to find a mate.  Is one that desperate to be married?  Marriage as an institution is, in itself, a compromise because for it to function adequately, one already has to often make compromises with/give in to the other.  To have to compromise yet again by lowering one’s standards for a partner is just too much compromising!  This can only lead to greater disappointment and bitterness later when problems occur in the marriage, and one recalls that the selected spouse was not what one really wanted to begin with.  Worse still, when someone else who actually meets the standard comes along later in life.  That’s just a recipe for disaster.

    I think one should be very clear about what one wants in a spouse, and even if one’s standards are high, try one’s best to find someone who meets those standards.  One shouldn’t simply settle.  Surely one’s life and standards are worth far more than that!

54. Greg 54

    I can’t believe there are adults who still believe in this perfect soul mate fairy tale nonsense.  People who were confined to one location throughout human history were able to marry and find partners.  Some were happy and some weren’t.  Today we have way more choices in partners.  Do more choices necessarily make us happier?  Or does happiness come from being content with the good things you do have?  It’s no mystery that some rich people are never satisfied.  As humans we always want more and more.  The same goes with our search for a partner.  The more choices we have, the more demands we make.  We also become less willing to compromise.  And since when is compromise a bad thing? We can’t have our way 100% of the time.

55. Ruby 55

    St Stephen #52

    Merriam-Webster’s definition of “family” is a little more open than Dictionary.com’s:

    Definition of FAMILY

    1
    : a group of individuals living under one roof and usually under one head : household

    2
    a : a group of persons of common ancestry : clanb : a people or group of peoples regarded as deriving from a common stock : race

    3
    a : a group of people united by certain convictions or a common affiliation : fellowshipb : the staff of a high official (as the President)

    4
    : a group of things related by common characteristics: asa : a closely related series of elements or chemical compoundsb : a group of soils with similar chemical and physical properties (as texture, pH, and mineral content) that comprise a category ranking above the series and below the subgroup in soil classificationc : a group of related languages descended from a single ancestral language

    5
    a : the basic unit in society traditionally consisting of two parents rearing their children; also : any of various social units differing from but regarded as equivalent to the traditional family family>b : spouse and children family>

    6
    a : a group of related plants or animals forming a category ranking above a genus and below an order and usually comprising several to many generab in livestock breeding (1) : the descendants or line of a particular individual especially of some outstanding female(2) : an identifiable strain within a breed

    7
    : a set of curves or surfaces whose equations differ only in parameters

    8

    : a unit of a crime syndicate (as the Mafia) operating within a geographical area 

56. Jesse 56

    Helen@5) and Nathan@51: There is some research that suggests that singles are more supportive in their communities and that marrieds are less so.

    From Bella DePaulo’s research (PhD, Harvard) on singles. Google her for more info on where these stats come from:
    
    “Myth #4 about single people is that if you are single, everything is always about you. According to the myth, if you are single, you are like a child. You are self-centered and immature and your time isn’t worth anything since you have nothing to do but play. Meanwhile, the myth says, married people are out there helping other people, supporting their parents, and maintaining communities. They, supposedly, are the selfless ones. Except that they are not. In two national surveys, researchers kept tabs on who was doing the helping, supporting, and staying in touch with other people. Here’s what they found. Married people exchange much less help with their parents and parents-in-law combined than single people do with just their parents. It is the single people who are there for mom and dad. Singles are also the ones who are more likely to visit, call and stay in touch with their siblings. They are more likely than married people to maintain ties with friends and neighbors. So while married couples are focused primarily on each other, single people are the ones who are holding together families and communities.’

57. Helen 57

    Jesse 56: sorry, but this woman’s resume doesn’t impress at all. If someone is a visiting professor for 11 years, it means that the university is reluctant to hire her as a full-time professor (even at the assistant level) for a reason: usually skepticism about the academic rigor of her work. She seems very obviously motivated by a particular agenda, and I do not trust the source of the work you cited.  Take a look at her publications list.  Half the time, she doesn’t cite either the publisher or the journal.  Very odd indeed.
     
    In the end, why does it matter?  I am certainly not anti-single, and don’t look down on singles, so would rather not get embroiled in this particular argument at all. I agree with the commenters who point out that life today is very different from life centuries or even decades ago, so there is much less need to be validated in society through the traditional modes of marriage and parenthood. I believe this even as a wife and mother.
     

58. Anon 58

    “(Yes, men like this DO exist.)”
     
    Men like this are easy to find, actually.  The problem is that women don’t realize that this is what they want: a guy who is capable of sharing his life and making sacrifices.  No, they want excitement, mystery, romance… all good things, but hard to sustain on a daily basis over the long haul.

59. Saint Stephen 59

    @Nathan Said:
    Your notion of “settling down” seems to require having children. I simply disagree with that view. It can include or not include having children. 
    Historically speaking Marriage is  an institution specifically designed to form stable families and when I say families I mean the kind with children.  

    Why is it whenever i bring up the past i get this people didn’t marry for love, or never found their soul mate? That’s a load of baloney. If people in the past never married for love but right now people are currently marrying for love, how would you explain the escalating divorce and infidelity rates? If we should be honest we would all agree that the only difference is people of the past knew the meaning of commitment.

    Nathan Said:
    As for those “family men” you mention who have greatly impacted the world, you might want to consider how their decisions impacted the lives of their children and spouses.  
    I’m sure you would agree with me that EMK is contributing more to the American society than many single childless men. How does it hinder his ability of becoming a great dad and husband? What about other great men like Obama & Bill gates who were also great fathers and husbands. I know many ordinary men that also made horrible fathers and spouse. Again another flawed logic.

    Nathan, you talked about Africa but look at Europe and the coming demographic collapse of Russia.  As for Western Europe, Everyone can see how the Eurozones is springing on the brink of financial collapse, because of the bad demographics coupled with a High-way to grave entitlement system.  
    They issued too much debt to finance their lavish social welfare programs then neglected  having  kids to pay for it. 
    If juxtaposition should be made between China’s thriving economy and eurozone’s dwindling economy then we would deduce that overpopulation is more advantageous than under-population. 
     

60. Saint Stephen 60

    @Ruby (#55)
    Fair enough.  I stand corrected and informed.
    Thanks for pointing that out. 

61. nathan 61

    Ok, Steven, let’s talk infidelity rates. There was plenty of infidelity in the past. Hell, many of our early U.S. Presidents and/or Congressional leaders cheated on their wives, some multiple times. And infidelity amongst men was socially sanctioned and even encouraged in some circles. As for the rising divorce rates, again, consider the fact that women rarely could file for divorce even two generations ago. And depending on one’s religious affiliation, divorce was, regardless of gender, not a possibility. Many people stayed married because they had no legal way out. Seriously, go study some history.
     
    Secondly, as I said above in 51, I’m speaking about diversity as a community strength. You still want to lift married men (apparently “great” married women aren’t worth mentioning) above single men, which I’m simply not going to go along with. Single people contribute. Married people with children contribute. Married people without children contribute. You just want to privilege married folk with children because you believe they are morally superior, which is your right, but something which I think is total nonsense.
     
    As for your take on Europe’s financial crisis, perhaps you might consider how the obnoxious speculative practices of the banking industry, coupled with endless amounts of corporate-level greed, have played a large role in the Euro crash. I’m talking corporate welfare and corporate entitlements, in case you’re not catching that. But then again, just like in relationships, you and I are coming from entirely different places on politics, and I’m not terribly interested in derailing this thread with that kind of discussion.
     
     

62. Evan Marc Katz 62

    @Kate Candy

    I got your comment while I was in NY and it got under my skin. You’re normally a very even-tempered, well-reasoned commenter, and something about your post just took a few too many leaps of faith for my liking. In other words, you attributed things to me that I’ve never said, and now I have to defend myself against them. It’s the Obama/death panels conversation, just a lot more redundant.
    
    Married people are incredibly happy. No, I’M incredibly happy. And I have a number of incredibly happy married friends who made wise choices with spouses. So if you’re a single person who wants to know if both love and compatibility are possible, the answer is an unequivocal “yes”. That’s why I’m a dating coach.
    
    The rich, single guy is secretly miserable. Yes, he is. If he decided he wanted to be Hugh Hefner, he might be thrilled. But he doesn’t. His parents are together. He has a brother and a sister who are long married and nieces and nephews. He’s getting to the point where he’s one of the only single guys out there. Hell, if I were single today, I’d be pretty anxious about it, too. Part of the reason I got married is because I learned, from coaching women, that I had to follow my own advice…

    Everyone can get married if they just learn to compromise. I didn’t say this exactly, but you’re on the right track. Anyone who doesn’t compromise ends up alone. Anyone who is married will attest to the fact that compromise is a big part of the process. I’m not sure what there is to disagree with.
    
    There’s nothing wrong with women who are not married. Finally, we agree. Do you really think that I could do this for a living and think that there is something “wrong” with women who aren’t married? Everyone has blind spots in various facets of life. As you can tell from reading this blog, many single women have them as well. Is there something wrong with me attempting to lend my insight to enable them to make more informed, powerful decisions based on how men really think?
    
    There’s no magic cure for singleness. I agree. That’s why I’ve been doing this for 8 years and still manage to be in business. You can’t cure human nature. But you can educate people if they’re open to listening.
    
    I think your blog is entertaining, but it’s also not very women-friendly. Au contraire. I’ve got over 100,000 people a month coming here, the vast majority of which are women who appreciate that I tell them my version of the truth. If you object to my version of the truth because women aren’t always the victims and men aren’t always the villains, then, yes, we can agree that I’m not woman-friendly. I’m reality-friendly and will always tell you what you need to hear instead of what you want to hear. If you think that woman-friendly means telling you what you want to hear, there are certainly better fits for you.

    The first one being that there is no guarantee of a soul mate. Never said there was. I don’t even believe in soul mates. You must have been reading some other brilliant, charming guy’s relationship blog.

    The second one is that the unattractive middle-income earning guy can love unconditionally. I don’t believe I’ve actually said this either, but I’ll take the bait. First of all, I never told you to marry someone unattractive. Ever. Second of all, if your point is that “average” men can’t love unconditionally, I personally disagree. Millions upon millions of “average” men are in monogamous relationships of their own choosing. Until every average man stays single forever, you’ve pretty much undermined your own claim.

    And the third one is that unconditional love exists. Love is always conditional. I would say that your marriage would not survive in the face of infidelity or addiction. As you already stated, you only hear my side of the story, because this is my blog and not my wife’s blog. But I’ve written ad-nauseum about what my wife brings to the table that made me want to commit to her. And I’ve said publicly and privately that she’s the kind of person who would push me around in a wheelchair for the rest of my life if I got hit by a bus. That’s who she is. That’s why I chose her. She’s good to the core and our relationship is as unconditional as can be. That doesn’t mean I can guarantee we’ll be together in 30 years, no more than anyone can guarantee anything. But the greater point that marriage is not a fairy tale is not news to anyone.

    What IS news – what you deem irresponsible – is that I believe you can make better decisions with men that lead to better relationships with men. And I believe that two people CAN live happily ever after, no matter how many times you’ve been burned before. Women turn to me for hope and I give it to them. Not because I’m trying to sell a product, but because I’m living a dream that ANYONE could have.

    If you don’t like what I’m selling, I will not miss you at all. Stop ruining the fun for me and all the women who believe in love.

63. Jesse 63

    Helen@57: She teaches and is an author of books, a highly sought after commentator in the media. No offense to anyone on here, but her creds as a researcher are more solid that EMK’s. I know lots of people highly credentialed in their fields who didn’t get tenured–we all know that tenure is as much a political game and a timing issue as anything else. I wouldn’t dismiss someone’s academic research so blithely, especially without reading it. Her work is excellent and well thought out, in my view.

64. Evan Marc Katz 64

    @Jesse – I have no doubt that Bella DePaulo has greater credentials than I do. The question is whether she’s providing unbiased advice. Based on the rants she’s made against Lori Gottlieb for telling women to make certain reasonable compromises if you want to find love and have your own biological kids, it’s hard to see her as entirely credible. She sees the very existence of people like me as an “attack” on single people, when, in fact, ALL of my clients are single people who WANT to be part of a couple. Her protests about matrimania or whatever she calls people who want to be happily coupled up seem very much like the protests of right-wingers who say that gays are trying to force gay marriage on them. No one really cares what single people do as a whole. Individuals are far too concerned about our own happiness. Perhaps DePaulo is a great researcher and brilliant writer (I don’t really care if she got tenure – credentials don’t mean much to me), but everything I’ve read from her suggests that this is her business: looking for ways in which single people are discriminated against and then finding the evidence to support it. As a mere dating coach and not a doctor, I’m only relying on my 8 years of talking to women for four hours a day about their love lives. I try to report back to you what’s true – not what I want to be true. But feel free to read all of her stuff and figure out who is more reliable a source. I predict your answer will say a lot more about what YOU want to believe than either of the two experts themselves.

    Finally, the fact that single people make more of an effort for Mom and Dad may or may not say anything meaningful about the character of single people. After all, once you’re married, your spouse becomes the MOST important person in your life, until your KIDS come along and then they get all of the attention. It doesn’t mean that Mom is put out to pasture or anything, but the dynamics very much change when you create your own nuclear family. Someone who doesn’t have a spouse or kids theoretically does NOT have anyone else to put first, thus explaining why they are more available to help out aging parents and reach out to neighbors. The fact that any “research” was done to “prove” that married people are more selfish is typical of these kind of misleading studies. Even if singles do put in more time into external relationships, it’s primarily because they don’t have nuclear families of their own – not because they’re better people.

65. Goldie 65

    @ EMK #64:
     
    ” After all, once you’re married, your spouse becomes the MOST important person in your life, until your KIDS come along and then they get all of the attention. It doesn’t mean that Mom is put out to pasture or anything, but the dynamics very much change when you create your own nuclear family. Someone who doesn’t have a spouse or kids theoretically does NOT have anyone else to put first, thus explaining why they are more available to help out aging parents and reach out to neighbors.”
     
    Very true, very true. After all, if you don’t take care of your kids, who else will? your single neighbor? I hear you on this one. For the last 18.5 years, I’ve been investing so much time, energy, resources etc into my kids that there is very little left over – not because I’m a better or a worse person, but because that’s my job as a parent, and no one else is going to do that job for me. I am very lucky that my parents have so far been very independent, and that, by the time they do need serious help, my kids will be able to lend a hand. As for the neighbors, I’m afraid they’re on their own. I’ve got no way to reach out to them, and probably won’t be able to for another 10-15 years. Sorry, neighbors. That’s just the way it is.
     
    With that said, may I say that this particular argument in defense of single/childless people, has started as a result of someone (not pointing any fingers here) saying that people who do choose not to have children do not carry their weight in contributing to society? Can we all just agree that everyone contributes in their own way as best they can, pass a peace pipe around, and talk about something else?

66. Jesse 66

    EMK@64: First off, I read her blog all the time, and I would hardly describe her tone as ranting. She’s quite a calm, nice person. WAY more ranting and insults on this blog. And in truth, she doesn’t care one way or the other about marriage or people who want to get married. That’s the point. She is an advocate for single living, which is the lifestyle that about 50% of the people in the US are either actively or passively choosing to pursue.

    Matrimania is the word she uses to describe the phenomenon of the societal pressure to be married and the promotion of the myths that surround marriage, even though all of the stats show that marriage isn’t that great for the majority* of people. She takes an in-depth look at these statistics and points out the procedural flaws of studies on marriage–the main one being that studies on marriage only include people who are currently married and not those who are divorced. That’s like a pharma company dropping those participants in a drug study who have a negative reaction to a drug. (Point: Would you think a drug was effective if 50% of those in the trial tried it, didn’t like, and stopped using it?) One of the big matrimaniacal myths out there is that everyone wants to be coupled up, and that if they aren’t, that there is something wrong with them or something that needs to change. Your blog is for folks who hold this world view. OK–it’s your blog. But this is not the only world view out there, I assure you.

    Singlism is the total package of myths, prejudice (social and legislative), and behaviors that make single people second-class citizens in a matrimaniacal world. For instance, in your comment above, you say that someone who does not have a spouse and kids theoretically does not have anyone else to put first. That is an unfounded, unkind, and prejudiced statement. A single person around you might just end up doing all of the heavy lifting in some regard because you are married and have a child and that’s your out. This happens in the workplace all the time and is a huge issue for many people, even if it isn’t an issue for you.

    And yes, studying all of these issues is what she does for a profession. There are others who study changes in society’s views of marriage, family, and relationship–like Stephanie Coontz.

    That you turn this into a debate about “better people” is odd. Bella never speaks like that. She didn’t coin the phrase “smug marrieds”–someone else did. Do you ever hear anyone coining similar phrases about single people?

    If you really want to take on the research, go ahead. It’s all in her book called “Singled Out.” But don’t go on her blog and start offering dating advice–the folks there aren’t into it. And a lot of people hated Lori Gottlieb’s book–including people on this blog. I mean, come on.

    *I say a “majority”: divorce rate at about 50%. That means that 50% of people don’t have a good experience of marriage. Of the 50%  who remain married, how many are staying because they are happy, how many because they feel an obligation, how many because of societal/religious/familial pressure, etc.? I am suggesting that not all of those 50% who stay are happy, and maybe a lot are miserable or neutral. Not a ringing endorsement of marriage, in my view.

67. Goldie 67

    Wasn’t going to comment anymore, but geez @ #66!!
     
    “A single person around you might just end up doing all of the heavy lifting in some regard because you are married and have a child and that’s your out.”
     
    I’ve got to say, that is one heck of an out! Does a single person stay up every night for months on end with a colicky neighbor, trying to get him to be quiet, because another neighbor is trying to sleep in the same room?? does he buy all of the neighbor’s food and clothes? drop everything and comfort the neighbor when he’s in a bad mood? take the neighbor to ER any time he falls down the steps and breaks something? miss years of work to stay home with the neighbor? pay the neighbor’s college tuition?? let’s just not go there. Parenting is incredible fun, but it also happens to be freaking HARD WORK. Often thankless, may I add. Let’s just not go there.

68. Evan Marc Katz 68

    Jesse – You’re a bright guy, but you’re arguing with the wrong person. First of all, read this and tell me that Ms. Depaulo isn’t ranting in this post called “Should You Marry That Rude, Stinky, Creepy Person Since You’re Not Perfect Either”. Or this one for the Huffington Post.

    Says DePaulo: “It takes an utterly unoriginal voice to pose the question, “Is it better to be alone or to settle?” Says Katz, “It takes an utterly illogical person to think that your two choices are being alone and settling.” Yet that’s the world that proud singles are setting up. Honestly, NO ONE CARES if you’re single. Books like Lori Gottlieb’s Marry Him are for people who WANT to be married. The fact that 50% of people are single? Who cares? If you’d rather avoid having a fulfilling relationship with a romantic partner, that’s your business.

    But my real issue with your post is that there’s something wrong with marriage. Marriage is fine. PEOPLE may be fucked up, but marriage as an institution, is working just fine. The problem, of course, is that most people aren’t rational decisionmakers. They marry for attraction or fear or money. They are selfish, petty, jealous, egomaniacal, hypersensitive and lack integrity. Which is to say that they’re just normal, flawed human beings. I don’t advocate for people to get married for the wrong reasons. I don’t know anyone else who does. I try to help people become the most confident, self-aware, attractive partners that they can be, and to make healthy relationship decisions based on long-term values.

    Do you really want to quibble with that? Or can you accept that essentially I help people who WANT to be helped – and if you want to be proudly single, god bless you.

    Finally, if one were to coin a phrase like “smug singles”, it would begin with the DePaulos of the world who have an axe to grind against couples who couldn’t care less about single people. The reason that there’s no “smug single” term is that no one cares enough to label them as such. Really, Jesse, you’re fighting a straw man when you say, “Everyone wants to be coupled up, and that if they aren’t, that there is something wrong with them or something that needs to change. Your blog is for folks who hold this world view.” No, while my blog IS, by its very nature, for people who want to be coupled up, there is absolutely no merit to the statement that “there’s something wrong with someone” who doesn’t. Travel the world. Garden with your neighbors. Watch internet porn. Doesn’t make a difference to me what single people do. I just don’t understand why you’d be reading a relationship advice blog if you aren’t seeking relationship advice. I write for my audience and am always shocked to find a handful of people who bother to tell me that they don’t like my message. Just change the channel; don’t shoot the messenger.

69. Helen 69

    Jesse, just because there’s ranting and insults on this blog doesn’t mean that Evan is at fault or inferior to Bella.
     
    There is a certain kind of anger in both Bella’s writings and your comments. I will grant you that it may be right to be angry, as society at large does tend to encourage coupling, and that makes life as a single harder than it should rightfully be. But I don’t think that the solution is to direct your anger toward currently married people. 
     
    I think that society takes a long time to change. Much of the encouragement you see toward marriage is based on romantic films and literature. Well, they have their roots in hundreds and thousands of years of literature on romance – Jane Austen, Castiglione, the medieval poets, even Homer. But as nathan pointed out earlier, social realities today make it much easier to live singly rather than the past necessity of being married. This has never happened before in recorded human history. So we are really at a breakthrough point in society – and literature and the romantic idealism have yet to catch up.
     
    Thus, the “fault” of matrimania is not those of us who have indeed found happiness in marriage, but the whole history of humankind. I am not sure what point you were trying to make by pointing out that we married people are called “smug marrieds” and that no such term exists for singles. The reason we don’t call single people such names is that we neither hate nor resent them. That is all.

70. Jesse 70

    Goldie@67: No one said that raising children isn’t hard work. It’s not the only type of hard work in the world, though, and it isn’t the only way to contribute to society. As some on this board have pointed out, it might not even be a contribution to society at all.

    And the example you offer about the neighbor also is full of singlism. As if the only relationships that single people have are with some distant neighbor and not with close friends, lovers, parents, siblings, children, coworkers, etc., who might enjoy the same types of intimacy or interdependency with the single person as a married person might enjoy with a spouse.

    I might also point out that a marriage contract is no guarantee that your spouse will perform all of the duties you list–that in fact, it might be a single friend who is taking you to the cancer clinic; a single aunt who is paying your college tuition; a single son or daughter who is visiting you in the nursing home. Or perhaps these types of giving go unnoticed or are devalued because you aren’t married to the person doing the giving?

71. Jesse 71

    Helen@69: Not sure where you get the anger from in my posts or in Bella’s. You can’t hear my tone of voice, but I assure there isn’t anger in it. I’m just pointing out the obvious. I mean, seems to me people in crappy romantic relationships seem like the most miserable people on earth. And have to say, some of those miserable people in my life are also “smug marrieds”–so that’s pretty funny in my book!

    EMK@68: Like I said, it’s your blog, so of course do or say whatever you want. Doesn’t matter to me if your goal in life is to get everyone into happy marriages–go for it and good luck with it. Doubt many people are saying they’re looking to get into a bad marriage, though, so clearly something isn’t working, despite all of the advice offered by psychologists, pastors, mothers, bloggers, and self-appointed gurus on TV shows. I must not be the only one who holds this point of view, given how many people out there are eschewing marriage for something else.   

    And I do date, but I don’t have relationship “goals,” for want of a better phrase. So a lot of what’s on here doesn’t apply to me, true.

72. Jesse 72

    Finally, if one were to coin a phrase like “smug singles”, it would begin with the DePaulos of the world who have an axe to grind against couples who couldn’t care less about single people.

    And there it is. If people are single, they don’t count? But couples do expect singles–and everyone else–to care about their marriage, their children, their homes, etc. Right?

    I think DePaulo has a point.

73. Goldie 73

    #70. I am not even married, so your arguments do not apply. I took offense to you stating that having a child is an “out”, i.e an excuse that parents (single or married) use to get out of volunteering, helping others, etc. Read your post that I quoted. It sounds like the parents are slacking off with their kids, while everybody else is doing “all of the heavy lifting”.
     
    “And the example you offer about the neighbor also is full of singlism. As if the only relationships that single people have are with some distant neighbor…”
     
    The “neighbor” was a follow-up to earlier comments, such as, oh wait a minute, your comment #56: “They are more likely than married people to maintain ties with friends and neighbors. ” Geez, as if the only ties a single person can have is with another single person, or a distant neighbor. Why are you so full of singlism Jesse? shame on you. LOL

74. Evan Marc Katz 74

    @Jesse – You’re making another leap and putting words into my mouth. “Couples expect singles to care about their marriage, their children, their homes?” Really? I know for a fact that I didn’t care about anybody’s kid until I was a parent. I assume that my single friends are only being polite when they ask about my daughter, which is why I tend to keep my comments about her brief. In fact, in my experience, married people are far more likely to be interested in their single friends’ love lives (if only for a vicarious thrill) than singles are really interested in the inner workings of a marriage. When I say couples don’t care about singles, it’s that pretty much everyone is so wrapped up in their own personal goals and dramas that we don’t spend any time thinking about “those poor single people out there” anymore than you lose sleep about unhappy married people. In other words, married couples are obsessed with their own marriages and indifferent to your problems. DePaulo’s suggestion that we look down on you and pity you just doesn’t really apply. I’m particularly sympathetic to singles who WANT to be married and like to think I have something to offer them.

    And do people get into bad marriages in spite of all the advice out there? You betcha. But it’s not the advice that’s wrong. It’s human nature. For an easy parallel: everyone knows that it’s important to save money – for a rainy day, for retirement, for kids’ college fund, for an emergency. No one debates that wisdom. Yet how many people save money? Most go into credit card debt, buy houses they can’t afford, and would rather buy nice things now than sacrifice for later. Who’s fault is that? The people giving financial advice? Or the people who refuse to listen despite the fact that they’ve been warned.

    I already linked to this, but I’ll do it again: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-neil-clark-warren/on-second-thought-dont-ge_b_888874.html

    Now, I’m not a big Neil Clark Warren guy, per se, but he does understand marriage and compatibility. The real problem causing 50% divorce rates isn’t marriage itself; it’s that people dive into marriage based on attraction and chemistry without ever contemplating if they could make each other happy for forty years. So two people who are “in love” – genuinely “in love” – often break up because she’s a really negative person or he’s not particularly ambitious or because he wants to live in the suburbs and she wants to live in the city. Like saving money, people prefer the short term decision to the long-term decision. And if fewer people get married for the wrong reasons to the wrong people, then I’m all for it. Being pro-marriage does not mean I want everyone to be married. It means that, despite all the negativity surrounding couplehood as espoused by DePaulo, it’s entirely possible to have a great marriage. Not everyone’s capable of it. I’m doing my best to help.

75. BC 75

    Well, having kids, to ME, has NEVER been my American Dream!  Perish the thought!  I can’t stand kids.  I’m in a long term committed relationship, have always been disinterested in marriage as anything other than a financial contract, and my finances are quite fine as they are, although my main squeeze of  (gasp!) ten whole years is very well off and spoils me rotten.  The fact is, I don’t need marriage, nor want it.  What I want is happiness, and love having someone who loves me for me, not for potential kids he can gain from our relationship (we’ve both been on the same page about that from day one!) or anything else.  If I REALLY truly wanted to get married, then we would…he’s agreeable to it because he is happy with me and I’ve never once questioned his love or commitment for me over the years.  I know I’m possibly just weird, because it seems like at least 90% of the population is looking for the contract and the kids, but I guess we all have our own vision of happily ever after.  Oh, and although I had a blast in both highschool and my university days…my idea of hell is a reunion of any sort.  Ughhhh!  God, the very idea of running into any old flames kinda sorta creeps me out, LOL!  I suppose I want to remember the handsome rascals as they were…and although I’m hanging in there pretty well, I’d also prefer to be remembered as the young vixen I was…ha!

76. Goldie 76

    Oh, Jesse #70, and another thing – like all of us, I kind of hope that no one will have to take me to a cancer clinic, you know? You sounded pretty positive in that comment that I am going to have cancer… what kind of argument is that?? Not cool, dude.

77. Helen 77

    Jesse 72, your misreading of Evan’s point seems to prove his earlier point about having an axe to grind. Any rational person reading his comment would have understood that he didn’t mean that he doesn’t care about the well-being of singles. Rather, he doesn’t care whether people are single or not, and won’t treat them badly just because they’re single.

    And yes, you are angry. Or dissatisfied, or both. No truly happy or satisfied person would take glee in other people’s misery, as you obviously do about the “smug marrieds” you know who are “miserable.” That attitude is rather sick.

78. Jesse 78

    Goldie@73: Those words were from a column by Bella DePaulo, not by me. But she goes into much more detail in her book, and she cites research by other social scientists in it. Agreed, her way of explaining singlism is much more compelling than mine.

79. Jesse 79

    BC@75: My feelings exactly.

    Goldie@76: I know lots of people who have had cancer, and several have died from it. To me, this is a reality, and one that is only going to become more common the longer I live. Could be me next, could be you. Do you think I’m not going to help a friend or relative because I’m single or that they aren’t going to help me? Think again. Real life doesn’t come with a bow.  And I was using “you” in the sense of “one,” not you in particular. Because, of course, nothing bad is ever going to happen to you before you get married.

    Helen@77: Again, you are atributing feelings to me that I don’t have. Since I know how I feel about these things and you don’t, will disregard.

    EMK@74: I don’t divide my friends, relatives, coworkers into married v. unmarried unless they do it first. In which case I merely exit their lives. As a person, I care about other people in my life regardless of their marital status, which seems to change in one direction or the other anyway the longer I know a person. So, unlike you, I care about kids that are not my own, even though I am–OMG–single.

80. Saint Stephen 80

    @Nathan
    You are pretty much oscillating back and forth without refuting i said. I don’t know if you are doing it deliberately but i’ll ask for the last time. You said people of the past never married for love & were unfaithful yet stayed in unhappy marriages simply b/c divorce was frowned upon but currently people are getting married for love. My first question is- why is escalating divorce and infidelity rates still the other of the day? 2) if divorce is escalating as a result of divorce been less frowned at, then how can we be sure people of the past never married for love? Especially since what is expected to be outcome of past marriages has become the ongoing trend.

    Why does diversity needs to come from some folks getting married and others not? Diversity can come from a hell of a lot more different things. such as some human going into arts and others science. Except you are a priest or monk, i see no correlation between one’s single or marital status to your contribution towards your community. I’m sure a single cop doesn’t contributes more to his community than a married one.     

81. Saint Stephen 81

    @Jesse Said
    But don’t go on her blog and start offering dating advice–the folks there aren’t into it.

    I find it a “Double Standard” that You issued a caveat to Evan to refrain from going to ”Bella DePaulo’s” Blog to offer dating advice while you hang around his Blog Advocating singilism. 
     Couldn’t it be that you are scared he might rack up some client’s who aren’t really sure they want to remain single? I mean why would anyone who is really happy and contented with their single status go to a blog offering relationship advice? I have no interest in remaining single, hence i would never visit her blog even at a gun-point (No sarcasm intended). 

    Research also showed that married people are happier and live longer lives. So if we should always go by what research says then i’ll conclude that Brian and other single folks in this thread aren’t really as happy as they claim, or rather as happy as married couples.

82. Helen 82

    Stephen, infidelity is not more common today than it was in the past.

    I don’t believe nathan ever said that people never married for love in the past; literature over the millennia has proven the opposite.

    And divorce is more common today both because it is easier to obtain a divorce than ever before, and because the consequences of divorce are not as dire now as they were as recently as a few decades ago. It is not because people are more morally bankrupt than they were in the past. There may be a few people who misuse others in the ease of divorce today, but I would venture to say that the vast majority of divorcees do so because their situations had become intolerable and it was healthier to separate.

83. Goldie 83

    @ Jesse #79. I know people in my immediate family who have or had cancer. And I still do not appreciate being told that I will definitely have it. I don’t think I like the way you argue, so I’m going to stay away from replying to your comments OK?

84. Jesse 84

    Goldie@83: No one on here has said that you are going to get cancer. So, yes, maybe it is better that you refrain from responding if you don’t get the gist of what people are saying.

85. Goldie 85

    @ Helen #82: agree. And I would even argue that, in the good old days, infidelity was socially acceptable, while now, it’s not. I believe the reasons for this shift in acceptance are that, back in the day, it was nearly impossible to get a divorce. You got married early and stayed married for life, regardless of how good or bad your marriage was. So people tended to get some action on the side, since they felt they were stuck in their marriages and couldn’t get out. Today, on the other hand, they have no valid excuse for that, because they are not under as much social/financial pressure to get and stay married as people used to be before. 
     
    FTR, to address a few assumptions voiced on this thread, personally I do not plan to remarry, because I don’t see the need. I see marriage primarily as a financial/legal institution that makes it easier for a couple to run a shared household with shared finances, and raise children together. I don’t plan on anymore children, so why get married? Only exception I can see is if I am in a healthy, working, committed relationship with someone, and one of us doesn’t have adequate health insurance (small business owner, self-employed, etc). In that case, I can see myself getting a marriage certificate so the person could be added to my policy. Other than that, don’t see the point of it for myself at this stage in my life. Besides, I’m leery of getting into something that has already cost me $5K once to get out of

86. Joe 86

    Jeez, Goldie, a little oversensitive, are we?  You didn’t get all up in Jesse’s grill about potentially having your tuition paid or being put into a nursing home.

87. Goldie 87

    Jesse, oh I get the gist. The gist of what you’re saying is, you’re on a dating-advice blog trashing couples, for being too selfish and too absorbed in each other, or single people that are not in enough opposition to couples (like myself), throwing random insults around in the process and then saying you didn’t mean it. I have no idea what purpose it is supposed to serve. Sounds like a waste of time to me (kind of like if I went on Bella DePaulo’s blog and started offering dating advice, right?), but hey, it’s your time and your choice of what to do with it. If you want to win more people to your cause however, I need to warn you that you’re doing it wrong.
     
     

88. Teresa 88

    There are negatives and positives in every situation whether married or single.  Having been married once there are things I miss about it not my ex h though!  But like Goldie I see no reason to remarry at this point in my life.  Plus the failure rate for second marriage is much higher than for first marriages.  
    There are areas for example US tax policy which favor married couples over singles hopefully this will change. 

89. nathan 89

    Stephen, I’m finished with that discussion. You can have your fantasy world where there was a Golden Age of marriage that somehow has been destroyed by our “wicked, modern ways.” I’m tired of trying to reword and add nuance to my comments, only to have you make absolute statements about what I said in response. We just disagree – and pretty thoroughly – that is all.
     
    Jesse, I feel somewhat sympathetic to the issues you’re raising about how singles continue to get treated in American society. Although I believe it’s more acceptable to be single today, there are still roadblocks and prejudice that need to be dealt with. But you – and perhaps DePaullo as well, I don’t know – seem to have a need to make sweeping generalizations about married couples, especially those with children, in the process of speaking about those issues. Something I find completely distasteful, and which completely undermines your other points.
     
    I’m personally on the fence about marriage. If the right person comes along, and we decide to get married, we will. If not, I’m fine either being single, or having a different form of committed relationship. Overall, I’m an advocate for whatever form of relationship works best for the people in it.
     
    Regardless, I have the good sense to see that some people have successful, healthy marriages, and that it’s just fine for other single people to be interested in the same. I don’t always agree with Evan, but I do think he helps people cut through some of the commonplace bs thinking that leads to the very “bad” marriages you repeatedly speak of. Just because a percentage of people still end up in unhealthy relationships despite the advice of counselors, dating coaches, and others doesn’t mean that marriage should be abandoned, or that what the “advice givers” are saying is garbage. 
     
    If you want to see a society where people’s diverse choices around relationships are embraced, then advocate for that diversity – which includes those who want marriage and children.

90. Jesse 90

    Joe@86: Very funny point. I noticed that, too.

    Nathan, Goldie: I didn’t start it. I just agreed with the following from Kate Candy and continute along these conversational lines:

    “Wow!  What a fairy tale.  Married people are incredibly happy.  The rich, single guy is secretly miserable.  Everyone can get married if they just learn to compromise.  I think there’s something dangerous in this way of thinking. There’s nothing wrong with women who are not married.  There’s no magic cure for singleness.  Marriage won’t make an unhappy or empty person happy.  As for your marriage, Evan, we really only hear your side of the story, and we don’t know what your wife brought to the table that made you commit.”

    I believe that her comment introduced the idea of 1) matrimania and 2) singlism. I just made this part of the discussion more explicit and cited some research to back it up.

    Don’t shoot the messenger.

91. Evan Marc Katz 91

    And, Jesse, did you read my long reply to Kate Candy? Was there anything in there with which you’d disagree?

92. Goldie 92

    @ Joe & Jesse: how’s that a funny point? I know for a fact I don’t have a rich aunt and I know for a fact that I will end up in a nursing home, if things go well and I live long enough, so none of those statements bothered me. Now the cancer clinic reference, that was a little scary IMO. Kinda like me telling you that you’re better off married because your spouse will spoon-feed you and change your diapers when you get brain damage from a car accident. I understand that on some Internet forums, you have to go for shock value in order to make a point. Wasn’t necessary in this case. That response was not relevant to my original post anyway.

93. Chow 93

    As I said, this is basically a right-wing/conservative-biased article.  People who don’t share this leaning (such as myself) will find several points suggested controversial. Chances are the two camps will never be able to agree.

    Evan, is it possible to put up more neutral articles, or is this the kind of conversation you sometimes try to promote?  General dating tips are good as opposed to advising people to lower standards and settle (both meanings: settle for less, as well as settle down).

94. Jesse 94

    Chow@93: Agree 100%.

95. Goldie 95

    I hate to beat this topic to death, but how is an article stating that you do not have to be insanely rich in order to be happy, right-wing/conservative? I don’t understand.
     
    If Brian had made it clear that he does not want a marriage or kids, and Evan had then written an article about how there must be something wrong with Brian, because everyone has to want to have a family, then yeah that would be right-wing and conservative indeed. The way I understood the article though, is that Brian states he does want a family and kids, but he a)only wants it with a perfect partner that doesn’t exist in reality, and wouldn’t “settle” for any real, imperfect woman; and b)doesn’t want to give up any part of his high-end lifestyle in order to raise a family (even though he does, in fact, want to raise a family. He just doesn’t want to invest any of his time or money into that). Basically, Brian is not being very realistic, and as a result, he cannot get what he wants. Did I read that right?

96. Jesse 96

    Goldie@96: Nowhere did Brian say whether he wanted to be married or not. Nowhere did Brian say anything about compromising or not. Nowhere did Brian say that he wanted an Ivy League, liberal supermodel. Nowhere did Brian say that he wanted perfection in a woman or that he wasn’t into “settling.” Nowhere do we find out anything about his lifestyle, high-end or otherwise. All we know is that he has a good career, he’s traveled, and he has dated at least one model, he is not currently married, and he thinks that the people he knows who stayed in their home town on LI haven’t grown.

    That EMK chooses to cast Brian as some hapless fellow being punished for anti-family values given the dearth of any evidence is why Chow and I see the article as right-wing/conservative-biased.

97. Evan Marc Katz 97

    @Jesse: You’re forgetting (or conveniently ignoring), that this was my best friend in high school. I know what he wants out of life. Just as I know that I’m happy and I know that my wife is happy. Why YOU think you know what I think, what Brian thinks, and what my wife thinks is the real remarkable leap of faith being taken here. Please, go away now. You’re bright, but so grounded in your position that you’re willing to ignore every rational point I put on the table. Good luck to you.

98. nathan 98

    I think what Jesse and Chow are reacting to is that Brian isn’t really all that likeable. He sounds smug, and he seems to emphasize material success, which is superficial (at least in my book). And although Evan says that it’s just fine to be 38 and single, his example is of that – Brian – is compared to people who, in Evan’s book, have great lives. Are worthy of being emulated. Who wants to emulate Brian? A few people perhaps, but not most of us.
     
    Furthermore, there’s a strong emphasis on children being central in the lives of those folks Evan sees as having excellent lives. Which is totally fine – they probably have good lives, and are good folks. But because of the binary created, it’s pretty easy to read this as saying “Those who compromised, found love, and have children are really the ones who get it.” Again, I don’t think that’s the intent, but because we are presented with a man who is an extreme example – Brian – and then presented with everyday couples with children as the opposite – it’s hard to see yourself being talked about if you want something (or are living something) that is different from those two positions.
     
    Since this is a site focused on marriage-minded folks, I don’t know how much we can expect Evan to uphold happy single folks. But perhaps seeing different kinds of married couples being held up might help somewhat. Like those who don’t want children and are still living fulfilling lives. Those who marry and have a shared focus on careers, or who choose to focus on serving in their communities as a couple, rather than raise a family.
     
    When I said I’m on the fence about marriage in a previous comment, it’s because I don’t see marriage as something with a fixed definition and direction. It’s more about making a definitive commitment to be with someone, a commitment that can manifest itself in many ways, and not simply by settling down, raising children, owning a house, going to work for 30 or 40 years and and then retiring together. That’s one path, but there are many, many more. I know I’m not the only one thinking like this, and perhaps there are others on this site thinking similarly.

99. Evan Marc Katz 99

    It’s remarkable how many of you take things so personally.

    Brian wants to get married and have kids. Lori Gottlieb wants to get married and have kids. Many of my readers want to get married and have kids. I give a lot of advice for people who want to get married and have kids.

    If you DON’T want to get married and/or have kids, that’s perfectly fair. But why get all bent out of shape when I give advice for people who DO want that? I’m not telling you that YOU should want it. Really. I’m not.

    Can we close the book on this now?

100. Jesse 100

     To EMK: Don’t need luck, dude. I have my act together. But good luck to you.

101. Helen 101

     Evan 99: I think that a lot of the anger you see here isn’t directed toward you specifically, and it isn’t because they think you’re telling them they should be married with kids. It’s because they are questioning whether those who want marriage and kids do so because they truly want that; or because social pressure to follow this norm is so strong. It is the social pressure to which they object. And sometimes, they wrongly take out their anger on those of us who are married with kids, rather than acknowledging that society has built up this expectation for thousands of years. So we might as well blame our ancestors (or praise them) for the norms we see now.

     nathan has pointed out diversity of viewpoints on several occasions, so I will add more to the mix. Two members of a couple don’t always agree themselves. Sometimes one wants kids and the other does not. Sometimes people change their minds; I certainly did (started out HATING having kids, and now am glad I do). Sometimes “oopsies” happen. 

     People, so much of this is pure chance, and that is what we seem to be forgetting. Whether we manage to find the right one, whether we even have kids – let’s not overestimate how much control we have over that. If I’ve realized anything, it’s that there’s no need to be self-congratulatory in the realm of family, given how much is sheer dumb luck.

     The other thing I think we should realize in this whole story is that Brian is SO YOUNG. In all likelihood, he has more than half his lifetime ahead of him. Who knows what will happen? Maybe at the next reunion, he’ll be married with kids. Nobody knows. Life is full of surprises and twists and turns.

102. nathan 102

     But Evan, I would guess that a percentage of your core audience, including women who you might coach, are either on the fence about kids or don’t want kids. And yet are totally interested in marriage.
      
     I can’t speak for the other dissenters, but I’m not writing out of anger, nor am I trying to push a pro-singles agenda on your blog – which is clearly geared at marriage minded folks. I’m simply saying that you, and everyone else writing towards people who say they want to get married, have an opportunity to diversify the images you offer as to what a successful marriage might mean.
      
     When I think of some of the women clients who you have spoken of in other posts, I sometimes wonder if their hesitations about commitment are coming, in part, from not knowing what to want out of marriage. Of feeling some vague sense that they don’t want a “traditional marriage,” but aren’t really sure what different approaches are being tried out by others. Perhaps these women end up settling in the wrong manner, meeting a man who wants the norm of buying a house, and centering life around a family with kids, and she goes along with that for several years before waking up confused and bitter one day.
      
     A few days ago, I went on a date with a woman who I had a lot in common with. We had a really nice, wide ranging conversation, enough that, in the past, I would have leapt at a second date with her. Even though there wasn’t a ton of initial “chemistry” between us. And yet, knowing myself better now, I realized that she was really focused on getting married and having children. Relatively soon. I think she recognized my ambivalence about that, and pulled back herself. The whole situation got me thinking about how even if you have let go of the “dream” images of some perfect prince or princess, you can still be faced with roadblocks that might have nothing to do with your ability to compromise, or your ability to commit to someone.
      

103. Jazmin 103

     Why do they say you must be a ‘BITCH’ to get a man fall in love with you? Is that correct? In my experience, it may work in the beginning but you can uphold that position for so long. Short after stopping the ‘bitchy’ behavior, the relationship does not work. Consequently, you blame yourself giving rise to an array of unnecessary but inevitable ‘what ifs’
     The reasons why you, Evan, are with your wife are all the contrary. Your wife probably showed her true colors from start and you fell in love with her. Such gives me hope. Hope to find someone who would like me exactly for who I am (including righteous principles and values) and not for how much ‘I play hard to get’ to get him interested?

104. Jesse 104

     Helen@101: No, Helen. It isn’t anger, and it really is the superior attitude that many married people, including EMK, present, as I still hold that his post about his so-called “best friend” is full of. This attitude seems very clueless. It’s more annoyance that people can really be so narrow-minded. This narrow-mindedness comes out in small, everyday interactions, from trying to fix people up when they don’t want to be, to excluding them from couples-only things, to not allowing a good friend to bring a “date” to an event when others can bring a spouse you don’t even know. There are more types of subtle discrimination against singles once you get into the world of commerce and tax legislation, but I won’t get into that here. Then there is the assumption that the single sibling should take care of mom and dad, that you’d be thrilled to watch the married people’s pets while they go on vacation or their kids when they go to the movies, or that your vacation from work is less important than the vacation of guy with the kids who has to have the last two weeks in August because his wife/his kids/his in-laws/blah blah blah. So you get to work the least desirable hours and get second choice of days off. Or you have to fill in all the time for the woman who has to take care of her sick kid or who has to be home because school let out early and her husband’s job is so much more important than anything else in the world, of course. 

     People assume that if they hitch themselves to family values they will get away with these unfair things–and putting down singles or a single lifestyle is part of keeping the family values status quo dominant.

     Glad to say that these discussions are finally taking place in the media and, more importantly, in HR offices. Cannot wait until the tax code gets rewritten.

     Here’s a news flash: Lori Gottlieb isn’t married because she doesn’t want to be. Brian isn’t married because he doesn’t want to be. I am not married because I do not want to be. We are not secretly pining away for your life. Really–get a grip on reality and stop with the insults already.

105. Evan Marc Katz 105

     The newsflash is for you, Jesse. Your singlemania seems to have gotten the better of your logical thinking. See, you don’t know Lori Gottlieb. I do. You don’t know my friend Brian. I do. You don’t know any of my clients. I do.

     So, as Helen and I have repeated, ad nauseum: if you want to be single, be single, and leave the dating/relationship advice for people who actually want to be coupled up. I honestly don’t have a problem with single people (since, you know, ALL of my clients are single). Why you have an axe to grind against married people is beyond me but suffice it to say, it’s your mishegas.

106. Joe 106

     Evan, how much contact have you had with Brian in the last 20 years?  Are you still close friends?  If not, perhaps he’s changed since HS, yet isn’t quite as far along in changing as you are.

107. Evan Marc Katz 107

     All of you who are doubting me sound like conspiracy theorists – just looking for any shred of evidence that will validate your original premise. You question me about what I’m thinking. You question my wife about what she’s thinking. You question people you’ve never met before and don’t find me a credible character witness. And what are you basing this on? What you WANT to be true. Sometimes you have to defer to someone who knows a little more about the subject than you do.

108. Helen 108

     Jesse 104, I do have to agree with Evan that your singlemania seems to have gotten the better of your logical thinking. While many of your viewpoints are good and valid, you do go off on some crazy rants, such as the 2nd paragraph about people getting hitched so that they can shove off duties to singles. Please tell me you’re joking. People get hitched because they found someone whom they love, to whom they want to commit. NOT to burden singles. I challenge you to find a single individual who married for that purpose. That idea is sheer nonsense.

     On the whole, you seem to believe that married people hold a vendetta against singles. We (Evan and I, among singles like nathan and Goldie) are here to tell you that is patently false – we hold nothing against single people. The sooner you believe this, the happier and closer to the truth you will be.

     As for your long first paragraph in 104: without any malice, I will tell you that it reeks of passive-aggressiveness. Why hold your tongue about things that bother you and then rant about them later? Jesse, it’s much better for yourself and the whole world to ASK for what you want.
     1. If you want people to stop setting you up, tell them so directly. You can do so without being unkind.
     2. If you want to take a vacation at a particular time, ask for it.
     3. If you want to be invited to an event, with or without a date, let the hosts know.  Don’t assume you’re being excluded just because you’re single.
     4. If you have a sibling that you think should assume more duties with your parents, ask them to do so.
     5. If people are trying to foist pet care onto you because you’re single (I find this very hard to believe), let them know you don’t want it.

     Jesse, whether you’re single or married, you can’t expect others to read your mind about what you want and then to hand it to you on a silver platter. Take responsibility for your own happiness. Make your own opportunities. 

109. Saint Stephen 109

     I share EMK sentiment. If you are one of those happily married and feels the need to extend the advice of what worked for you- more power to you.
     But i see no reason why anyone happily single, isn’t interested in a relationship and/or marriage- to hang around a BLOG primarily geared towards achieving that. If such folks had restrained themselves to Happily singles Blog, they wouldn’t jump on Evan’s throat for simply doing his business.

110. Hope 110

     What you said about compromising (or not compromising) in love was very well stated.  It very articulately sums up my dating history.  I realize now that almost all of my relationship choices have had to do with not wanting to compromise in love. 
     For me, it’s not that I think I’m “better” than others necessarily, but I admit it does have to do with being artistic and self-centered. Wanting to be “free” to manifest these wonderful visions of what my life could be.
     Of course, being “free” often means being alone. 
     I can see the value of a bit of compromise. I think it’s at least worth experimenting with : )

111. Jesse 111

     EMK@105 and helen@108: Surely you gest when you suggest that singles and marrieds are treated the same in our world–legally or socially, or that there isn’t a tremendous amount of pressure to get married whether one wants to or not, that bias against singles is a reality, and that for most people marriage maybe isn’t the greatest choice (based on outcomes). If it works for you–great! You’re in the minority. More power to you. Your way, your beliefs, don’t work for most people in the US, the statistics seem to tell us.

     And if you call spreading the word about discrimination against singles “singlemania,” then yes–I am a proud singlemaniac!!

     But I don’t have to convince you or anyone else–the tide is turning toward singlehood as a lifestyle for most adults, at least for a vastly significant portion of their lives. And yes, single people date and have relationships and full lives, and yes, we are standing up for ourselves more and more in the workplace and calling out the media when it bashes singles or perpetuates negative stereotypes about us.

     Obviously this is a blog for married people, though, so I’ll keep moving on. Thanks for your comments.

112. Evan Marc Katz 112

     Jesse, Jesse, Jesse, who accuses me of “gesting”…

     Wrapped up in your singlemania, you seem intent on making a lot of points which are entirely irrelevant to this blog post. Is there pressure for people to get married? Sure. Is there bias against singles? Probably. Is marriage the best choice for everyone. Certainly not.

     See how much we agree upon?!

     Here’s the thing, bud: it doesn’t matter for the sake of THIS blog.

     THIS blog is for people who want to make better relationship decisions instead of living alone forever. THIS blog is for people who want to understand dating dynamics from a new perspective. THIS blog is for people who – gasp – might want to get married one day… or NOT. See, that’s the thing with you singlemaniacs. You see a conspiracy against single people everywhere, when we relationship-oriented folks are pretty much just busy with our spouses and our kids and couldn’t care less about what you do after work.

     So stop with your crusade to stand up for yourself on my blog. You’re in the wrong forum. Go to Congress if you want laws changed. On THIS blog, we’re focused on relationships and we’re not trying to preach to people who don’t want them.

     For the life of me, Jesse, I don’t understand why a bright guy like you comes to a place like this with an axe to grind. My wife (sorry, some of us like being married) actually gave me a good parallel to describe readers like you.

     Let’s say there’s a food blog for people who like to cook. And the blogger comes up with an exquisite recipe for steak, one that will blow away the readers who are really into that sort of thing.

     You’re the vegan who goes onto the blog and complains that it’s a meat-oriented world and that meat is bad for you and that the meat industry has you under its thumb.

     Dude, if you don’t like meat, don’t eat it. Leave the rest of us alone.

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